October 29, 2024 • 16 mins
In this episode of the podcast, Tony Saunois, General secretary of the Committee for a Workers International, analyses the general trends in the leadup to the US elections and why the outcome will have a major effect on the global capitalist system.
Tony will be speaking on Sunday 10th November from 11am-1pm at Socialism 2024, the weekend of socialist discussion hosted by the Socialist Party. Here's the full details of the weekend:
• SOCIALISM 2024
Sat 9 Nov - Sun 10 Nov
• Institute of Education, London WC1H 0AL
A weekend of discussion and debate on ideas to change the world, with a main rally at Saturday 5.30pm on the theme of 'Building the socialist opposition to Starmer's war & austerity agenda'
Even if you are free for just one of the days, there are day and rally-only tickets available as well, and also the option to get a 'golden ticket' that includes hostel accommodation.
If you can't come at all a donation to the fighting fund appeal is appreciated so that members with low incomes can come along.
Here is the website where you can see the brochure and book your tickets: www.socialism.org.uk
Further Reading:
Neither Republicans nor Democrats offer a pro-working class agenda
https://www.socialistworld.net/2024/10/28/neither-republicans-nor-democrats-offer-a-pro-working-class-agenda/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hello and welcome to Socialism, the Marxist podcast from the
Socialist Party. Our podcast aims to understand,
explain and prepare us all for the fight for socialism.
It's produced by members and party activists.
Don't miss an episode. Hit subscribe wherever you get
your podcasts. Thanks for listening.
(00:23):
The US finds itself at a crossroads domestically.
It has aspects of extreme socialpolarisation, riddled by
division and debt, and a societyravaged with increasing
inequality and poverty. Still the world's biggest
economy and in decline, the US is no longer the single dominant
force with the ability to set the framework for world
(00:45):
capitalism, stocking further economic fracturing, conflict
and war, and a decline in capitalist cooperation and
globalization. The US presidential election
taking place on the 5th of November will have a decisive
effect on the course of US capitalism and the global
(01:05):
economy. My guest on the podcast today is
Tony Sonwa, the General Secretary of the Committee for a
Workers International. To hear an in depth analysis of
the US election results just days after the election takes
place, come to Socialism 2024 where Tony will be speaking on
(01:26):
Sunday morning at 11:00 AM. Socialism 2024 will take place
on Saturday the 9th and Sunday the 10th of November at the
Institute of Education in London.
A weekend of discussion and debate on ideas to change the
world, with a main rally at Saturday at 5:30 PM on the theme
(01:48):
of building the socialist opposition to Starmer's war and
austerity agenda. Even if you're free for just one
of the days, there are day and rally only tickets available as
well and also the option to get a golden ticket that includes
hostile accommodation. To see the full programme of
workshops and book a ticket, visit www.socialism.org.uk.
(02:15):
Enjoy the podcast and hopefully see you at Socialism.
Hi Tony, thanks for joining me today.
That's OK. Oscar, I'm very pleased to be
here with you. So my first question is, what is
the economic reality for workersin the US in the run up to these
elections? Well, that's a key question,
Oscar, because it is shaping, inpart, the possible outcome of
(02:38):
the election campaign itself. Now, if you look at the main
media outlets of the capitalist class, they'll tell you that
everything is going very well inthe US.
They can't understand why, if living standards have gone up a
little bit, people are not happyand consented.
And yet the reality is entirely different.
(02:58):
If you compare the position of the living standards of the
working people in the United States to say, 30 years ago, it
is far lower. The expectations are for the
next generation to have an even lower standard of living.
Life expectancy in the US is nowit's at its lowest for the last
25 years. There's an incredible turn
(03:21):
around and a critical point is not just the standard of living
where people are struggling to make ends meet, but it's the
vast amount of inequality that exists in the US.
The top 1% now earn 20 times more than the bottom 90% and
that is fuelling a great amount of discontent.
(03:42):
Inequality in the US is the highest of the all of the G7
nations. The wealth gap, and this has
been going on for decades now. The wealth gap is now double
what it was in 1989. It's actually higher than double
now. That was 1989 to 2016.
(04:03):
It doubled and it's now probablygone up even further.
So there's a great feeling of discontent that we're
struggling. We have massive amount of debt
and people feel there is no realprospect of things getting
better and the expectation is that people's children are going
to have an even lower standard of living than their parents and
their parents have got a lower standard of living than that
(04:25):
which existed on on average for 20 or 30 years ago.
No thanks, Tony. But given Trump's disastrous
first time in office, how is it possible that Trump could win a
second election? Well, that's the key question.
It's related to this perception.Despite the fact that Biden came
in for the Democrats and fundamentally very little has
(04:47):
changed in terms of the living standards of all the working
people. They've stagnated or gone back
and declined. There was an expectation that
things are going to get worse rather than better, and support
for Biden's administration has plummeted.
Now Trump, given his populist, right wing, nationalist appeal,
(05:08):
has homed in on that. And he's made the the case that
the elites running the Democratic Party are not
interested in the plight of all the working people.
His campaign is centring on the question that he's going to cut
inflation and solve the inflationary problem and in a
reactionary way deal with the migration issue.
And he's appealed to the workingclass and sections of the
(05:32):
working class, of the youth thathe's the outsider, that he's
standing against the establishment of the Democrats.
And given the vacuum which exists, the discontent which
exists for the Democrats, there's a possibility, a strong
possibility, that despite his disastrous first term in office,
(05:53):
that he'll be able to make a comeback and be elected for a
second term. If that happens, you're going to
have a massive polarisation takeplace in US society.
In fact, you've already got that, but it'd be greatly
intensified should Trump win thepresidency.
And the prospect of a second Trump victory is terrifying for
(06:13):
many workers and young people internationally, including here
in the UK. So what would our answer be to
those people who say that the only way to stop Trump getting
in is to vote for Harris and theDemocrats?
Well, you can understand that, and it'd be very sympathetic to
people who would adopt that attitude.
But we'd have to say, unfortunately, Harris offers no
(06:33):
way forward. And even if Harris does win,
which is far from certain, the disastrous consequences of her
policy which would offer no way forward are going to pave the
way for Trump to maintain his base to make a further come
back. Or something worse than Trump
even emerged because of the social, economic and political
(06:55):
crisis which is going to developin the US.
And therefore it's a question oflooking towards the building of
a new third party which will represent the interests of the
working class in a more determined manner.
So while we can be sympathetic and understand why many people
would vote for Harris and the Democrats in order to keep Trump
out, in reality it's not going to solve the problem and it's
(07:19):
not going to offer a solution tothe political and social crisis
which exists in the US. So you mentioned there that we
call for the setting up of a newWorkers Party in the US, but
what demands should be raised onthe likes of Bernie Sanders and
Alexandra Ocasio Cortez within the Democrats in order for them
to fight Trump effectively? Well, if they were going to
(07:41):
fight Trump effectively, they'd have to be outside the
Democrats. That's the essential point.
You see, if you look at what's happened in the Democratic Party
itself over the last period, Well, first of all, Sanders made
a very combative challenge to Clinton and he lost.
But he remained within the framework of the Democratic
Party. And then under Biden's
leadership, he's endorsed Biden.And they're they're they're just
(08:05):
imprisons in this dead end of the Democratic Party and they're
not prepared to break from it. Cortez, unfortunately, has taken
the same approach and gone down the same route.
They raised a few points of questioning and opposition to
some of Biden's policy or very little of it in reality.
And they offer no alternative. So in terms of placing demands
(08:29):
on them, if they were serious about offering an alternative,
they should split and break fromthe Democrats and start a new
party to represent the working class.
But unfortunately, they're not prepared to do that.
So Harris has raised record levels of fundraising and she's
come out and said I'm a capitalist through and through.
(08:49):
But which sections of the US capitalist class are back in
each candidate, and why? Well, there's different
interests here. It's probably true to say the
majority of the major capitalistcorporations, and in that sense,
the capitalist class itself backHarris against Trump.
Although sections of the ruling class, particularly the the
(09:13):
elites based around the the likes of Elton Musk, you know,
from the tech industry are throwing their weight behind
Trump or big sections of them are.
They're doing that for their ownparticular reasons because
they've think they're going to gain more from a Trump
presidency. They're collaborating with
Trump. Musk in particular is out there.
So there's a little bit of a division there.
(09:34):
Most of the US ruling class probably want the Democrats in,
although a section are backing Trump.
And the reason for that is, is they think he'll introduce more
protectionist measures to defendtheir interests in their
industries as well. Although Biden's introduced a
record number of protectionist measures as well.
But in reality, neither of them will offer a solution to the
(09:58):
economic crisis and problems that are developing in the US
society. So there's also two campaigns
for the presidency to the left of the Democrats this election.
Cornell West is running as an independent and Shield Stein is
running as part of the Green Party.
How are we orientating to these campaigns as an international?
Well, we we would see those campaigns as potentially being
(10:21):
positive in the sense they do offer a certain left challenge
to the Democrats and a left alternative to to Trump.
So therefore, we'd urge voters in the US to vote for Jill
Stein, who's running as a left candidate from the Greens, or
Corner West in those states where she's where Jill Stein is
(10:44):
not running. However, both of them need to
develop further a program and come out clearly with a strategy
for how a real party of the working class on the left is
going to be built and developed.And unfortunately, neither of
them have come forward with thatat this stage.
But we'd encourage support for them because it would provide
(11:05):
the basis for a springboard to show the alternative is possible
and could possibly help be a step along the road towards the
formation of a new left party for the working class.
So that brings me on to my next question, which is what are the
tasks for socialists in the US before and after the elections
(11:25):
to fight for a working class political alternative?
Well, there's there's all sorts of tasks in terms of not just
participating in the election campaign, which is important,
but it's not the only route. But I mean, in the election
campaign we'd hope people would be out campaigning for Jill
Stein and arguing for a socialist alternative to be put
(11:47):
forward. But also intervening in the
important strikes which are taking place, showing solidarity
with workers involved in taking strike action, which they are
even in the run up to the this election campaign.
You see, you've seen a tremendous strike of the
dockworkers, now the Boeing workers as well.
(12:07):
And then the struggles which arecrucial against racism against
the far right and protests taking place.
And we urge people to participate and enjoying that
struggle, but with the objectiveof raising and propagating the
idea of the need for a new partyat the working class to be
formed as urgently as possible to provide a real alternative to
(12:30):
to both the Democrats and the Republicans, neither of which
represent the interests of working people.
So you mentioned two major strikes there, but and what is
the current political situation in the American trade unions?
Well, he's very confused the thepolitical situation.
You have sections of the trade unions, unfortunately are being
(12:51):
drawn behind Trump and it's mixed in terms of what they're
doing politically. You've had some new reform
leaders elected in the trade unions, which have been a little
bit more combatively combative industrially, but politically
they're not raising a clear alternative.
Some reflected in the AFLCIO, the equivalent of the TUC, which
(13:14):
has come out backing Harris. All of the Teamsters, their
executive board meeting voting to endorse no particular
candidate. So the leadership's offering
nothing in terms of a clear political alternative from
within the the trade unions. And what ramifications will the
outcome of the US elections havefor the global political
(13:36):
situation? Well, it's going to be decisive.
If you have Harris, it will be acontinuation of business as
usual as to what we have at the present time, which is one of
chaos of conflict, of course taking place.
Should Trump win the election, then that could mean an
intensification of the crisis. He tried and undoubtedly adopt A
(14:00):
further position, support or collaboration with Putin in
Russia, the the oligarchical regime that Putin heads that
will have effects in terms of the Ukraine war should Trump
also win. It will probably also be
followed through in the horrificwar that we've seen being fought
(14:21):
out in Gaza, where he'll give aneven the clearer blank check to
Netanyahu than what Biden has done to continue with the
Netanyahu's policies of brutal oppression and repression of the
of the Palestinian peoples. So it's going to have major
consequences, including in relation to relations with
China, which inevitably is goingto impact on the world economy
(14:44):
as well. So this election, more than any
other is crucial for the US, butit's going to have decisive
consequences and ramifications for the whole of the global
situation in the years that we're going into.
All right. Thanks, Tony.
I'll see you next time, OK? Thank you very much.
Well, hopefully that episode hasgot you fired up.
(15:08):
Are looking to get active in campaigning for a challenge for
the establishment parties. To get in touch with the
Socialist Party to discuss beinga member and joining the fight
to change the world, visit www.socialistparty.org.uk.
If you're interested in Marxist ideas, take out a subscription
(15:29):
to The Socialist, our weekly paper, and Socialism Today, our
monthly magazine. We also recommend checking out
the Committee for a Workers International, the international
organization the Socialist Partyis a part of, with analysis of
world events. And for those listening in other
parts of the world, get in touchto join the fight for socialism
(15:53):
in your country. That's www.socialistworld.net.
Thanks for listening and see younext time.
Hello and welcome to Socialism, the Marxist podcast from the
Socialist Party. Our podcast aims to understand,
explain and prepare us all for the fight for socialism.
It's produced by members and party activists.
Don't miss an episode. Hit subscribe wherever you get
your podcasts. Thanks for listening.
(00:23):
The US finds itself at a crossroads domestically.
It has aspects of extreme socialpolarisation, riddled by
division and debt, and a societyravaged with increasing
inequality and poverty. Still the world's biggest
economy and in decline, the US is no longer the single dominant
force with the ability to set the framework for world
(00:45):
capitalism, stocking further economic fracturing, conflict
and war, and a decline in capitalist cooperation and
globalization. The US presidential election
taking place on the 5th of November will have a decisive
effect on the course of US capitalism and the global
(01:05):
economy. My guest on the podcast today is
Tony Sonwa, the General Secretary of the Committee for a
Workers International. To hear an in depth analysis of
the US election results just days after the election takes
place, come to Socialism 2024 where Tony will be speaking on
(01:26):
Sunday morning at 11:00 AM. Socialism 2024 will take place
on Saturday the 9th and Sunday the 10th of November at the
Institute of Education in London.
A weekend of discussion and debate on ideas to change the
world, with a main rally at Saturday at 5:30 PM on the theme
(01:48):
of building the socialist opposition to Starmer's war and
austerity agenda. Even if you're free for just one
of the days, there are day and rally only tickets available as
well and also the option to get a golden ticket that includes
hostile accommodation. To see the full programme of
workshops and book a ticket, visit www.socialism.org.uk.
(02:15):
Enjoy the podcast and hopefully see you at Socialism.
Hi Tony, thanks for joining me today.
That's OK. Oscar, I'm very pleased to be
here with you. So my first question is, what is
the economic reality for workersin the US in the run up to these
elections? Well, that's a key question,
Oscar, because it is shaping, inpart, the possible outcome of
(02:38):
the election campaign itself. Now, if you look at the main
media outlets of the capitalist class, they'll tell you that
everything is going very well inthe US.
They can't understand why, if living standards have gone up a
little bit, people are not happyand consented.
And yet the reality is entirely different.
(02:58):
If you compare the position of the living standards of the
working people in the United States to say, 30 years ago, it
is far lower. The expectations are for the
next generation to have an even lower standard of living.
Life expectancy in the US is nowit's at its lowest for the last
25 years. There's an incredible turn
(03:21):
around and a critical point is not just the standard of living
where people are struggling to make ends meet, but it's the
vast amount of inequality that exists in the US.
The top 1% now earn 20 times more than the bottom 90% and
that is fuelling a great amount of discontent.
(03:42):
Inequality in the US is the highest of the all of the G7
nations. The wealth gap, and this has
been going on for decades now. The wealth gap is now double
what it was in 1989. It's actually higher than double
now. That was 1989 to 2016.
(04:03):
It doubled and it's now probablygone up even further.
So there's a great feeling of discontent that we're
struggling. We have massive amount of debt
and people feel there is no realprospect of things getting
better and the expectation is that people's children are going
to have an even lower standard of living than their parents and
their parents have got a lower standard of living than that
(04:25):
which existed on on average for 20 or 30 years ago.
No thanks, Tony. But given Trump's disastrous
first time in office, how is it possible that Trump could win a
second election? Well, that's the key question.
It's related to this perception.Despite the fact that Biden came
in for the Democrats and fundamentally very little has
(04:47):
changed in terms of the living standards of all the working
people. They've stagnated or gone back
and declined. There was an expectation that
things are going to get worse rather than better, and support
for Biden's administration has plummeted.
Now Trump, given his populist, right wing, nationalist appeal,
(05:08):
has homed in on that. And he's made the the case that
the elites running the Democratic Party are not
interested in the plight of all the working people.
His campaign is centring on the question that he's going to cut
inflation and solve the inflationary problem and in a
reactionary way deal with the migration issue.
And he's appealed to the workingclass and sections of the
(05:32):
working class, of the youth thathe's the outsider, that he's
standing against the establishment of the Democrats.
And given the vacuum which exists, the discontent which
exists for the Democrats, there's a possibility, a strong
possibility, that despite his disastrous first term in office,
(05:53):
that he'll be able to make a comeback and be elected for a
second term. If that happens, you're going to
have a massive polarisation takeplace in US society.
In fact, you've already got that, but it'd be greatly
intensified should Trump win thepresidency.
And the prospect of a second Trump victory is terrifying for
(06:13):
many workers and young people internationally, including here
in the UK. So what would our answer be to
those people who say that the only way to stop Trump getting
in is to vote for Harris and theDemocrats?
Well, you can understand that, and it'd be very sympathetic to
people who would adopt that attitude.
But we'd have to say, unfortunately, Harris offers no
(06:33):
way forward. And even if Harris does win,
which is far from certain, the disastrous consequences of her
policy which would offer no way forward are going to pave the
way for Trump to maintain his base to make a further come
back. Or something worse than Trump
even emerged because of the social, economic and political
(06:55):
crisis which is going to developin the US.
And therefore it's a question oflooking towards the building of
a new third party which will represent the interests of the
working class in a more determined manner.
So while we can be sympathetic and understand why many people
would vote for Harris and the Democrats in order to keep Trump
out, in reality it's not going to solve the problem and it's
(07:19):
not going to offer a solution tothe political and social crisis
which exists in the US. So you mentioned there that we
call for the setting up of a newWorkers Party in the US, but
what demands should be raised onthe likes of Bernie Sanders and
Alexandra Ocasio Cortez within the Democrats in order for them
to fight Trump effectively? Well, if they were going to
(07:41):
fight Trump effectively, they'd have to be outside the
Democrats. That's the essential point.
You see, if you look at what's happened in the Democratic Party
itself over the last period, Well, first of all, Sanders made
a very combative challenge to Clinton and he lost.
But he remained within the framework of the Democratic
Party. And then under Biden's
leadership, he's endorsed Biden.And they're they're they're just
(08:05):
imprisons in this dead end of the Democratic Party and they're
not prepared to break from it. Cortez, unfortunately, has taken
the same approach and gone down the same route.
They raised a few points of questioning and opposition to
some of Biden's policy or very little of it in reality.
And they offer no alternative. So in terms of placing demands
(08:29):
on them, if they were serious about offering an alternative,
they should split and break fromthe Democrats and start a new
party to represent the working class.
But unfortunately, they're not prepared to do that.
So Harris has raised record levels of fundraising and she's
come out and said I'm a capitalist through and through.
(08:49):
But which sections of the US capitalist class are back in
each candidate, and why? Well, there's different
interests here. It's probably true to say the
majority of the major capitalistcorporations, and in that sense,
the capitalist class itself backHarris against Trump.
Although sections of the ruling class, particularly the the
(09:13):
elites based around the the likes of Elton Musk, you know,
from the tech industry are throwing their weight behind
Trump or big sections of them are.
They're doing that for their ownparticular reasons because
they've think they're going to gain more from a Trump
presidency. They're collaborating with
Trump. Musk in particular is out there.
So there's a little bit of a division there.
(09:34):
Most of the US ruling class probably want the Democrats in,
although a section are backing Trump.
And the reason for that is, is they think he'll introduce more
protectionist measures to defendtheir interests in their
industries as well. Although Biden's introduced a
record number of protectionist measures as well.
But in reality, neither of them will offer a solution to the
(09:58):
economic crisis and problems that are developing in the US
society. So there's also two campaigns
for the presidency to the left of the Democrats this election.
Cornell West is running as an independent and Shield Stein is
running as part of the Green Party.
How are we orientating to these campaigns as an international?
Well, we we would see those campaigns as potentially being
(10:21):
positive in the sense they do offer a certain left challenge
to the Democrats and a left alternative to to Trump.
So therefore, we'd urge voters in the US to vote for Jill
Stein, who's running as a left candidate from the Greens, or
Corner West in those states where she's where Jill Stein is
(10:44):
not running. However, both of them need to
develop further a program and come out clearly with a strategy
for how a real party of the working class on the left is
going to be built and developed.And unfortunately, neither of
them have come forward with thatat this stage.
But we'd encourage support for them because it would provide
(11:05):
the basis for a springboard to show the alternative is possible
and could possibly help be a step along the road towards the
formation of a new left party for the working class.
So that brings me on to my next question, which is what are the
tasks for socialists in the US before and after the elections
(11:25):
to fight for a working class political alternative?
Well, there's there's all sorts of tasks in terms of not just
participating in the election campaign, which is important,
but it's not the only route. But I mean, in the election
campaign we'd hope people would be out campaigning for Jill
Stein and arguing for a socialist alternative to be put
(11:47):
forward. But also intervening in the
important strikes which are taking place, showing solidarity
with workers involved in taking strike action, which they are
even in the run up to the this election campaign.
You see, you've seen a tremendous strike of the
dockworkers, now the Boeing workers as well.
(12:07):
And then the struggles which arecrucial against racism against
the far right and protests taking place.
And we urge people to participate and enjoying that
struggle, but with the objectiveof raising and propagating the
idea of the need for a new partyat the working class to be
formed as urgently as possible to provide a real alternative to
(12:30):
to both the Democrats and the Republicans, neither of which
represent the interests of working people.
So you mentioned two major strikes there, but and what is
the current political situation in the American trade unions?
Well, he's very confused the thepolitical situation.
You have sections of the trade unions, unfortunately are being
(12:51):
drawn behind Trump and it's mixed in terms of what they're
doing politically. You've had some new reform
leaders elected in the trade unions, which have been a little
bit more combatively combative industrially, but politically
they're not raising a clear alternative.
Some reflected in the AFLCIO, the equivalent of the TUC, which
(13:14):
has come out backing Harris. All of the Teamsters, their
executive board meeting voting to endorse no particular
candidate. So the leadership's offering
nothing in terms of a clear political alternative from
within the the trade unions. And what ramifications will the
outcome of the US elections havefor the global political
(13:36):
situation? Well, it's going to be decisive.
If you have Harris, it will be acontinuation of business as
usual as to what we have at the present time, which is one of
chaos of conflict, of course taking place.
Should Trump win the election, then that could mean an
intensification of the crisis. He tried and undoubtedly adopt A
(14:00):
further position, support or collaboration with Putin in
Russia, the the oligarchical regime that Putin heads that
will have effects in terms of the Ukraine war should Trump
also win. It will probably also be
followed through in the horrificwar that we've seen being fought
(14:21):
out in Gaza, where he'll give aneven the clearer blank check to
Netanyahu than what Biden has done to continue with the
Netanyahu's policies of brutal oppression and repression of the
of the Palestinian peoples. So it's going to have major
consequences, including in relation to relations with
China, which inevitably is goingto impact on the world economy
(14:44):
as well. So this election, more than any
other is crucial for the US, butit's going to have decisive
consequences and ramifications for the whole of the global
situation in the years that we're going into.
All right. Thanks, Tony.
I'll see you next time, OK? Thank you very much.
Well, hopefully that episode hasgot you fired up.
(15:08):
Are looking to get active in campaigning for a challenge for
the establishment parties. To get in touch with the
Socialist Party to discuss beinga member and joining the fight
to change the world, visit www.socialistparty.org.uk.
If you're interested in Marxist ideas, take out a subscription
(15:29):
to The Socialist, our weekly paper, and Socialism Today, our
monthly magazine. We also recommend checking out
the Committee for a Workers International, the international
organization the Socialist Partyis a part of, with analysis of
world events. And for those listening in other
parts of the world, get in touchto join the fight for socialism
(15:53):
in your country. That's www.socialistworld.net.
Thanks for listening and see younext time.
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