March 11, 2025 • 23 mins
The National Organiser of Socialist Students, Adam Powell Davies, discusses the crisis facing higher education and Socialist Students' new national campaign Funding not Fees. Socialist Students is serious about fighting to end the uni funding crisis, by mobilising students to demand no course cuts, no job losses, and for free, fully funded education, fighting back against cuts and tuition fee rises.
Socialist Students has groups in university and college campuses all over the country, and students in many different political groups, including the Socialist Party, take part in fighting for what students need.
Read more:
Students: Build the resistance to uni cuts!
https://www.socialistparty.org.uk/articles/136064/26-02-2025/students-build-the-resistance-to-uni-cuts/
Crunch time looms for higher education:
https://socialismtoday.org/crunch-time-looms-for-higher-education
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hello and welcome to Socialism, the podcast of a Socialist Party
hit. Subscribe to Dave to never miss
an episode. Today's podcast is a discussion
with the national organizer of Socialist students, Adam Paul
Davies, discussing the crisis inthe universities and higher
education in general and socialist students.
New national campaign funding, not fees.
(00:22):
Socialist students are serious about finding the end the UNI
funding crisis by mobilizing students to demand no course
cuts, no job losses and for freefully funded education fighting
back against cuts and tuition fee rises.
Socialist Students has groups inuniversity and college campuses
campuses all over the country and students in many difficult
(00:44):
different political groups, including the Socialist Party
take part and fight for what students need.
Hi, Adam. Thanks for joining me.
Hello, thanks for having me. So my first question is what is
going on in the universities at the moment?
But it's a good question. I think the immediate background
to this discussion we're having is the waiver cut that's been
(01:06):
announced for jobs in many universities since the start of
this year. I think the latest figures is
that at least 2000 new job cuts have been planned by vice
chancellors just since the startof 2025 alone.
And of course, that's on top of the redundancies already planned
last term and that includes 4 hundreds at the University of
(01:27):
Cardiff, 300 at Sussex, Newcastle, hundreds more in in
in universities around the UK. And I think what's shocking
about the cuts going on at the moment is, is not just the
scale, but also the impact it's going to have on working class
communities in particular, having a knock on effect on, on,
(01:51):
on, on local people. When you look at what's going on
at Cardiff University at the moment, the fact that the
nursing school is threatened with closure, that would make
Cardiff the only capital city inthe whole of Europe without a, a
nursing school. It's a major supplier of, of
trained skilled labour to the NHS in Wales at the moment.
(02:14):
So, you know, these cuts, they're not just a, a
devastating threat to jobs themselves, but also to society
more generally in, in Britain. So obviously this hasn't
happened overnight. So how and why has the
university funding crisis got tothis point?
(02:35):
Well, I think at base it points to a completely broken system, a
broken model for funding university, I mean universities,
higher education in Britain usedto be completely publicly
funded. In particular over the last
couple of decades, the amount ofdirect government funding to
higher education has been dramatically decreased to a
(02:58):
point now where I think just over 10% of Higher Education
Funding comes directly from the government, which is the lowest
out of the the G20 economically developed economy.
And instead, universities increasingly have been forced to
look for other sources of incomein order to make up their
(03:18):
budget, in particular tuition fee income, especially since the
trebling of tuition fees in 2010.
But also universities look at other sources of income like
charging extortionate rent to students, getting lucrative
contracts from housing companies, as well as companies
(03:39):
that want universities to do research on on their behalf,
including research into things like war arms industries.
That's of course been a major feature of protest by students
over the last year or so againstthe, the Israeli state General
Seidel slaughter on Gaza and thethe complicity of universities
in that. And so you've seen really what's
(04:00):
been called like the, the marketisation of higher
education. In other words, universities
competing within a market, the students and other sources of
income, basically acting like capitalist businesses,
maximizing income while driving down their, their outgoings,
which has meant a 25% reduction in, in staff wages over over 15
(04:22):
years. It's meant a, you know,
exploitation of students in terms of the housing, the, the,
the rent that they pay as well. And this year there's been a
crunch in particular because tuition fees that that UK
students pay has been gradually eroded since that trembling I
(04:44):
spoke about just then from 2010.And universities had temporarily
been able to bypass this collapse in in the value of the
UK student tuition fee by relying on international
students more and more heavily. And unlike UK students,
international students don't have a cap on their tuition
fees. Universities can basically pay
(05:05):
what they like, I'm sorry, charge what they like rather.
But that's all come to a head this year because for the first
time in a decade, international student applications have
dropped. And so you've seen this crunch
and now there's, you know, Max cuts threatened.
And this comes on top of a cost of living crisis facing
(05:26):
students, a record gap between maintenance loans and students,
real living costs, and also comes on top of, well, a tuition
fee increase, which I can come onto in a bit.
But just on the cuts, I think also we have to be clear that in
socialist, in socialist students, in the Socialist
(05:47):
Party, we, we reject any cuts to, to, to, to higher education.
I mean, Britain is still what, the sick richest country in the
world. There is a vast amount of wealth
in society. I think the energy companies
over the last three years have made £420 billion in, in profits
between them. So there's plenty of money, but
it's about fighting, building a movement that can fight to take
(06:10):
that wealth into the hands of, of, of working class people,
using it for what people need interms of education, of course,
but also housing, decent jobs, decent services for all.
And so any vice chancellor saying that they have to make
cuts, we say, well, firstly, open the books, show us where
students tuition fees are going.Show us where the, the, the,
(06:33):
the, the proceeds from research that, that that staff are doing
on behalf of, you know, companies where, where that
money is going. Prove to us that there is a
deficit and that these cuts are,are needed.
And one, if, if, if you have reserves, which many
universities do, those should beused to stop all cuts.
But if a university generally does show that it it has a, a
(06:57):
deficit is in a financial crisis.
But that's all the more reason for university vice chancellors,
university management to join a mass campaign for the funding
that is actually needed from government rather than the
chaotic market size fee model that currently reigns.
And you know, we would say that that we can't have leaders of
(07:18):
universities who just work together with successive Labour
and Tory government to destroy higher education.
You know, we need actually students and staff
democratically deciding how our universities are run in deciding
where resources go, including any emergency funding that is
provided, which should be allocated under the guidance of
(07:40):
of, of of trade unions, not bureaucratic by chance.
So you mentioned that a massive funding crisis and rather than
actually addressing that, all the Labour government has done
is raise tuition fees by a smallamount.
Is this going to help with the funding crisis or not?
Well, I think in a way the the, the question answers itself
(08:00):
because obviously clearly the, the, the rise in tuition fees
that was announced last year hasdone nothing to stop all the
cuts that are happening at the moment.
I mean, there was nothing announced in terms of extra
direct funding for universities in Labour's first budget, apart
from a measly 40,000,000 lbs aimed at helping
(08:21):
commercialization of universities even further, such
as re entrenching marketization.And just a few days later after
that budget, of course, as you mentioned, Labour announced that
they would be increasing tuitionfees from this year.
But it is by a small amount, 285lbs, which of course will mean
bigger student debt for students, which we are against.
(08:42):
But it also means that, you know, the, the, the, the, the
added cost of just the National Insurance contributions that
that universities have to pay for next year will completely
outweigh any of funding boost that they might get from an
increase in tuition fees. And so really what's on the
cards is for this year and definitely at least for next
(09:03):
year, the prospect of more cuts,more cost of living crisis for
students and just increased student debt for the millions of
students that have to take maintenance loans.
And so, you know, we, we would say rather than having this
market size fee model, we have to fight against the increase in
tuition fees this year, but instead fight for full public
(09:28):
funding for university, which would mean free education.
It would mean scrapping tuition fees, introducing maintenance
grants to students. It would allow the undoing of
all of the loss pay that that that staff have lost over the
last decade and a half of, of austerity and, and more.
And again, you know, we would point to the the huge wealth
(09:49):
existence society and the need for a movement that could fight
to take that wealth off of of the Super rich and big business.
So what's the best way socialiststudents think so we can build
that movement to fight for fullyfunded, free education?
That's a good question. And I mean there are some recent
examples of quite big movements actually for free education
(10:10):
towards the idea that universities should be fully
funded by government, not run onthe basis of tuition fees.
I mean, in 2010 when the, the, the then Conservative Lib
Democrat government trebled tuition fees, there was a big
protest movement by students, including that movement of
(10:31):
50,000 students in the streets of London in the autumn of of
2010. And that shows the potential for
there to be a movement that rejects the idea of fees, that
fights instead for free education.
Of course, one of the weaknessesof that movement was that the,
the, the NUS, the National Unionstudent, which is the, well, the
so-called student leadership nationally did not sufficiently
(10:54):
link up with trade unions at that time who were preparing to
take massive strike action, which had the potential into
developing really into generalized strike action.
Those, those, those student of workers movements weren't
sufficiently linked up. And that is something that we
have to learn for, for this timeround.
But also even more recently, youhave to point to the the
(11:18):
movement around Jeremy Corbyn's leadership of the Labour Party.
Especially in 2017 when you had hundreds and thousands of of
young people really infused by Corbyn's anti austerity
manifesto, which of course included the idea of a free
education, scrapping tuition fees and introducing maintenance
grants in in in increasing corporation tax in order to to
(11:40):
to do that. Of course, had Corbyn got into
power, there would still have been the need for a mass
movement to be built in order towin even just the pledge for,
for, for free education, let alone as other pledges around a
mass building of, of council houses, nationalising a few of
the key industries and, and, andother things.
(12:04):
Because what Corbyn was putting forward, even those, those
limited reforms would have been bitterly opposed by big business
in Britain and internationally. And really I think that is the
key for this time round. It's about building a mass
movement of students, of staff who are under attack, but also
appealing to the working class more widely to the trade union
(12:26):
movement to come together in a mass movement, free, fully
funded education. And in terms of where that lead
could come from nationally, I mean, the UCU, the University
and Colleges Union, which which organises 120 thousand members
in higher education, they put out this idea of a higher
education levy, the idea that you can increase corporation tax
(12:48):
by 4.5% as a means to raise £17 billion.
And that would be enough to scrap tuition fees and
introduce, you know, some small maintenance grants.
It would be a start. Unfortunately, the UCU
leadership nationally has not come out with a campaign around
this issue. It isn't looking currently to
launch any kind of national industrial action linked to the
(13:12):
question of fighting on pay on conditions and also the question
of funding against the cuts thatare happening.
And that really shows that the need for, you know, a fighting
democratic leadership of, of, ofthe UCU as we fight for in, in
all the other trade unions. But another lead potentially is,
you know, the fact that UNISON, which is another union with
(13:35):
50,000 members in higher education, is currently
balancing for strike action. They are linking the fight on
pay for their members to the need for funding for higher
education. So that's another potential
weigh in for, for for socialists, for students on the
campuses to go along, hopefully to go and support some picket
lines. If, if, if, if the ballot is
successful and to really launch a, a student staff fight back.
(14:01):
Of course, one place we aren't doing much of a fight back is
from the Nux, which I I've mentioned.
Traditionally they have at leastgiven lip service to the idea of
fighting for free education. Their most recent conference
policy that talks about funding talks about the need for a
government to bring in a plan toscrap tuition fees and fully
fund education. But that is completely gone from
(14:24):
the lips even of the NUS leadership.
Currently they've come out in response to the tuition fee
increase that Labour has introduced, saying that instead
there needs to be a balancing public and private investment in
higher education, which really is, I suppose a symbol of, you
know, how far back the NUS has fallen, but also the need
(14:45):
students to be fighting for a democratic socialist student
leadership nationally. And, you know, students could
start doing that by standing in students unions, elections,
which going on at the moment in in universities all across the
country, standing on a programmeof free, fully funded education.
The idea that universities should be under the democratic
(15:06):
control, students, staff and thewider communities, you know,
that would be a step forward. Just pointing to the need for
there to be, you know, democratic student organisations
that actually represent us. Of course, I've said a lot there
about, you know, potentially what could happen.
The fact is there isn't really being a clear lead put out
(15:27):
nationally for how we can fight these cuts, how we can fight for
free education. There is no major political
party, no political party in in government at the moment that's
calling for this. We would also say that, you
know, Jeremy Corbyn, you've inspired thousands and thousands
of young people to fight for free education when you were
(15:49):
leader. Why aren't you coming out and
doing the same now? But of course, the fight back
has to come from somewhere. And so Socialist Party members
in the universities and collegeshave put forward the idea
through Socialist Students, which is the the, the
organization that we take part in on the campuses.
We put forward the idea of a, a,a campaign called Funding, Not
(16:12):
Fees. Yeah.
Yeah. Can you tell us a bit more about
that funding, not fees? What is that?
I can. So that was originally a
campaign that socialist studentslaunched in response to the
threat of a tuition fee increase.
We looked at the fact that the universities were in a massive
crisis. The the Labour government coming
(16:33):
in was aware of the potential threat of a university
bankruptcy, which of course theywould want to avoid.
Not because they care about jobs, not because they care
about students, but because it would lead to huge pressure on
them to intervene, to have to beseen to be protecting jobs.
And you know, who would want to be an MP in any town or city
(16:59):
where universities around the country are are one of the
biggest employers? Who would want to be an MP in
that situation, having to face the reality of thousands and
thousands of jobs being lost in in their community?
And so we thought that, you know, Labour would introduce
some measure within the narrow constraints that they had to
(17:19):
work with in terms of the crisisrich capitalism.
We thought they would introduce some measure and because of
their pro big business, pro catalyst credentials, we thought
it was most likely that they would try and increase tuition
fees to make students and staff pay even more rather than
looking to make big business pay.
And of course that is what has happened.
(17:41):
However, we don't think actuallyfrom our experience of
campaigning in the university and the colleges that the issue
of the tuition fee rise itself has been as big an issue.
I mean, obviously that's what funding of fees, as it's name
suggests, was originally introduced to, you know, a set
up to to campaign around. What we have noticed is actually
(18:03):
the issue of cuts is a huge mobilising factor on lots of
campuses at the moment. And I think a great example is
what's going on in Cardiff University where Socialist Party
members and Socialist students and also in the trade union
movement locally have really been able to spearhead a
campaign called Cardiff StudentsAgainst the Cuts.
(18:23):
And within hours of finding out about these cuts, our members,
our comrades, went out with a new leaflet, a new poster built
for a meeting the following week, which we got over 70 along
to, that included members of other student societies, members
from the local community, students union offices as well
as trade union members. And they got together and
(18:45):
planned, you know, a fighting response, had a very successful
rally with hundreds along there just a few days later.
And I think you do have to say it's no coincidence then that
just last week the Welsh Labour Government has announced
90,000,000 lbs of extra funding to higher education, which is
completely inadequate but nonetheless has shifted them
(19:08):
from a position of saying we were not going to give any new
money to higher education to a position where they have had to
give some crumbs at least. And we think that that example
in Cardiff really offered a fighting example for how local
campaigns being built against the cuts, fighting instead for
the idea of, you know, the need for full funding to higher
education. That model could be replicated
(19:31):
nationally and, and, and link upinto, you know, the basis of a
really powerful movement. And that's really what funding,
not fees is for. And we produce, you know,
campaign material. And we talked about the idea of
a movement for for for funding for not fees to reject this
latest tuition fee rise to instead fight for the scrapping
(19:52):
of tuition fees, the cancellation of student debt, to
fight for rent controls of student accommodation, for
living maintenance grants ratherthan students loans, to end low
pay, casualisation of staff. And we think that is the the
outlines of, you know, a programthat could unite all these
different groups are going to befighting back on campus to, you
(20:15):
know, build a build a really successful campaign.
And I suppose I can just tell you about one of, you know, the
other initiatives that we're trying to do through funding,
not fees, because of course we do want maths meetings, but we
want a plan of action out of those meetings.
And we've also been a socialist student planning like lobbies of
(20:35):
local MPs, because we think thatalso this, this, this struggle
against cuts and against fees needs a a political voice which
currently does not exist. And so we're going to be
messaging local MPs, putting pressure on them to back the
funding not fees campaign publicly to put an amendment in
(20:56):
the June spending review againstany bill that tries to make
students and staff pay even morefor the crisis in education.
We can't forget that Labour, when they increased tuition fees
last year, have said that they're also looking at a wider
overhaul. And so I think we have to say
that the cuts that are going on at the moment, the tuition fee
(21:17):
increase, all of this is a test by Labour and the university
bosses to, to, to, to test our resolve to see how serious
students and staff are in terms of fighting back.
And we need to have a level of cohesion, battle readiness to
take on, you know, even bigger attacks that could be coming
down the line. So as well as universities,
(21:40):
you've got councils in crisis, schools crumbling and
underfunded. There's no shortage of battle
lines being drawn against this Labour government.
So, as well as on the universities, what should
students do to fight back more generally?
Yeah. And that's a good point because
I suppose there I've, I've kind of touched on the idea of of
funding, not fees campaign bringing together students and
(22:01):
staff on the campus. Of course, I think we also have
to be looking at all of the struggles that are going on
elsewhere in society, which are of course not disconnected from,
you know, the, the, the chaos I've just outlined in the
university. I mean, really it is all a
symptom of British capitalism in, in crisis, whether that's
(22:23):
like you say, in councils, in schools, in all areas of public
services. And there are other sections of
the working class that are goingto be fighting back and already
are fighting back. We saw sixth form teachers
taking strike action this year and, and, and before Christmas.
There's also the, the 2.8% pay offer to public sector workers,
(22:44):
which is going to be met with resistance.
So I think it's important that students also connect our
struggle for free, fully funded education to the fight of, you
know, the, the working class more widely against the Stama
government and, and the capitalist system that it that
it defends. Great.
Thanks, Sarah. Great.
Thanks. For the next stuff, if you're
(23:05):
not yet a member of the Socialist Party and agree with
the points raised today, then get in touch on our website
www.socialistparty.org.uk to find out what being a member
will mean for you. Our website is packed with more
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(23:26):
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Hello and welcome to Socialism, the podcast of a Socialist Party
hit. Subscribe to Dave to never miss
an episode. Today's podcast is a discussion
with the national organizer of Socialist students, Adam Paul
Davies, discussing the crisis inthe universities and higher
education in general and socialist students.
New national campaign funding, not fees.
(00:22):
Socialist students are serious about finding the end the UNI
funding crisis by mobilizing students to demand no course
cuts, no job losses and for freefully funded education fighting
back against cuts and tuition fee rises.
Socialist Students has groups inuniversity and college campuses
campuses all over the country and students in many difficult
(00:44):
different political groups, including the Socialist Party
take part and fight for what students need.
Hi, Adam. Thanks for joining me.
Hello, thanks for having me. So my first question is what is
going on in the universities at the moment?
But it's a good question. I think the immediate background
to this discussion we're having is the waiver cut that's been
(01:06):
announced for jobs in many universities since the start of
this year. I think the latest figures is
that at least 2000 new job cuts have been planned by vice
chancellors just since the startof 2025 alone.
And of course, that's on top of the redundancies already planned
last term and that includes 4 hundreds at the University of
(01:27):
Cardiff, 300 at Sussex, Newcastle, hundreds more in in
in universities around the UK. And I think what's shocking
about the cuts going on at the moment is, is not just the
scale, but also the impact it's going to have on working class
communities in particular, having a knock on effect on, on,
(01:51):
on, on local people. When you look at what's going on
at Cardiff University at the moment, the fact that the
nursing school is threatened with closure, that would make
Cardiff the only capital city inthe whole of Europe without a, a
nursing school. It's a major supplier of, of
trained skilled labour to the NHS in Wales at the moment.
(02:14):
So, you know, these cuts, they're not just a, a
devastating threat to jobs themselves, but also to society
more generally in, in Britain. So obviously this hasn't
happened overnight. So how and why has the
university funding crisis got tothis point?
(02:35):
Well, I think at base it points to a completely broken system, a
broken model for funding university, I mean universities,
higher education in Britain usedto be completely publicly
funded. In particular over the last
couple of decades, the amount ofdirect government funding to
higher education has been dramatically decreased to a
(02:58):
point now where I think just over 10% of Higher Education
Funding comes directly from the government, which is the lowest
out of the the G20 economically developed economy.
And instead, universities increasingly have been forced to
look for other sources of incomein order to make up their
(03:18):
budget, in particular tuition fee income, especially since the
trebling of tuition fees in 2010.
But also universities look at other sources of income like
charging extortionate rent to students, getting lucrative
contracts from housing companies, as well as companies
(03:39):
that want universities to do research on on their behalf,
including research into things like war arms industries.
That's of course been a major feature of protest by students
over the last year or so againstthe, the Israeli state General
Seidel slaughter on Gaza and thethe complicity of universities
in that. And so you've seen really what's
(04:00):
been called like the, the marketisation of higher
education. In other words, universities
competing within a market, the students and other sources of
income, basically acting like capitalist businesses,
maximizing income while driving down their, their outgoings,
which has meant a 25% reduction in, in staff wages over over 15
(04:22):
years. It's meant a, you know,
exploitation of students in terms of the housing, the, the,
the rent that they pay as well. And this year there's been a
crunch in particular because tuition fees that that UK
students pay has been gradually eroded since that trembling I
(04:44):
spoke about just then from 2010.And universities had temporarily
been able to bypass this collapse in in the value of the
UK student tuition fee by relying on international
students more and more heavily. And unlike UK students,
international students don't have a cap on their tuition
fees. Universities can basically pay
(05:05):
what they like, I'm sorry, charge what they like rather.
But that's all come to a head this year because for the first
time in a decade, international student applications have
dropped. And so you've seen this crunch
and now there's, you know, Max cuts threatened.
And this comes on top of a cost of living crisis facing
(05:26):
students, a record gap between maintenance loans and students,
real living costs, and also comes on top of, well, a tuition
fee increase, which I can come onto in a bit.
But just on the cuts, I think also we have to be clear that in
socialist, in socialist students, in the Socialist
(05:47):
Party, we, we reject any cuts to, to, to, to higher education.
I mean, Britain is still what, the sick richest country in the
world. There is a vast amount of wealth
in society. I think the energy companies
over the last three years have made £420 billion in, in profits
between them. So there's plenty of money, but
it's about fighting, building a movement that can fight to take
(06:10):
that wealth into the hands of, of, of working class people,
using it for what people need interms of education, of course,
but also housing, decent jobs, decent services for all.
And so any vice chancellor saying that they have to make
cuts, we say, well, firstly, open the books, show us where
students tuition fees are going.Show us where the, the, the,
(06:33):
the, the proceeds from research that, that that staff are doing
on behalf of, you know, companies where, where that
money is going. Prove to us that there is a
deficit and that these cuts are,are needed.
And one, if, if, if you have reserves, which many
universities do, those should beused to stop all cuts.
But if a university generally does show that it it has a, a
(06:57):
deficit is in a financial crisis.
But that's all the more reason for university vice chancellors,
university management to join a mass campaign for the funding
that is actually needed from government rather than the
chaotic market size fee model that currently reigns.
And you know, we would say that that we can't have leaders of
(07:18):
universities who just work together with successive Labour
and Tory government to destroy higher education.
You know, we need actually students and staff
democratically deciding how our universities are run in deciding
where resources go, including any emergency funding that is
provided, which should be allocated under the guidance of
(07:40):
of, of of trade unions, not bureaucratic by chance.
So you mentioned that a massive funding crisis and rather than
actually addressing that, all the Labour government has done
is raise tuition fees by a smallamount.
Is this going to help with the funding crisis or not?
Well, I think in a way the the, the question answers itself
(08:00):
because obviously clearly the, the, the rise in tuition fees
that was announced last year hasdone nothing to stop all the
cuts that are happening at the moment.
I mean, there was nothing announced in terms of extra
direct funding for universities in Labour's first budget, apart
from a measly 40,000,000 lbs aimed at helping
(08:21):
commercialization of universities even further, such
as re entrenching marketization.And just a few days later after
that budget, of course, as you mentioned, Labour announced that
they would be increasing tuitionfees from this year.
But it is by a small amount, 285lbs, which of course will mean
bigger student debt for students, which we are against.
(08:42):
But it also means that, you know, the, the, the, the, the
added cost of just the National Insurance contributions that
that universities have to pay for next year will completely
outweigh any of funding boost that they might get from an
increase in tuition fees. And so really what's on the
cards is for this year and definitely at least for next
(09:03):
year, the prospect of more cuts,more cost of living crisis for
students and just increased student debt for the millions of
students that have to take maintenance loans.
And so, you know, we, we would say rather than having this
market size fee model, we have to fight against the increase in
tuition fees this year, but instead fight for full public
(09:28):
funding for university, which would mean free education.
It would mean scrapping tuition fees, introducing maintenance
grants to students. It would allow the undoing of
all of the loss pay that that that staff have lost over the
last decade and a half of, of austerity and, and more.
And again, you know, we would point to the the huge wealth
(09:49):
existence society and the need for a movement that could fight
to take that wealth off of of the Super rich and big business.
So what's the best way socialiststudents think so we can build
that movement to fight for fullyfunded, free education?
That's a good question. And I mean there are some recent
examples of quite big movements actually for free education
(10:10):
towards the idea that universities should be fully
funded by government, not run onthe basis of tuition fees.
I mean, in 2010 when the, the, the then Conservative Lib
Democrat government trebled tuition fees, there was a big
protest movement by students, including that movement of
(10:31):
50,000 students in the streets of London in the autumn of of
2010. And that shows the potential for
there to be a movement that rejects the idea of fees, that
fights instead for free education.
Of course, one of the weaknessesof that movement was that the,
the, the NUS, the National Unionstudent, which is the, well, the
so-called student leadership nationally did not sufficiently
(10:54):
link up with trade unions at that time who were preparing to
take massive strike action, which had the potential into
developing really into generalized strike action.
Those, those, those student of workers movements weren't
sufficiently linked up. And that is something that we
have to learn for, for this timeround.
But also even more recently, youhave to point to the the
(11:18):
movement around Jeremy Corbyn's leadership of the Labour Party.
Especially in 2017 when you had hundreds and thousands of of
young people really infused by Corbyn's anti austerity
manifesto, which of course included the idea of a free
education, scrapping tuition fees and introducing maintenance
grants in in in increasing corporation tax in order to to
(11:40):
to do that. Of course, had Corbyn got into
power, there would still have been the need for a mass
movement to be built in order towin even just the pledge for,
for, for free education, let alone as other pledges around a
mass building of, of council houses, nationalising a few of
the key industries and, and, andother things.
(12:04):
Because what Corbyn was putting forward, even those, those
limited reforms would have been bitterly opposed by big business
in Britain and internationally. And really I think that is the
key for this time round. It's about building a mass
movement of students, of staff who are under attack, but also
appealing to the working class more widely to the trade union
(12:26):
movement to come together in a mass movement, free, fully
funded education. And in terms of where that lead
could come from nationally, I mean, the UCU, the University
and Colleges Union, which which organises 120 thousand members
in higher education, they put out this idea of a higher
education levy, the idea that you can increase corporation tax
(12:48):
by 4.5% as a means to raise £17 billion.
And that would be enough to scrap tuition fees and
introduce, you know, some small maintenance grants.
It would be a start. Unfortunately, the UCU
leadership nationally has not come out with a campaign around
this issue. It isn't looking currently to
launch any kind of national industrial action linked to the
(13:12):
question of fighting on pay on conditions and also the question
of funding against the cuts thatare happening.
And that really shows that the need for, you know, a fighting
democratic leadership of, of, ofthe UCU as we fight for in, in
all the other trade unions. But another lead potentially is,
you know, the fact that UNISON, which is another union with
(13:35):
50,000 members in higher education, is currently
balancing for strike action. They are linking the fight on
pay for their members to the need for funding for higher
education. So that's another potential
weigh in for, for for socialists, for students on the
campuses to go along, hopefully to go and support some picket
lines. If, if, if, if the ballot is
successful and to really launch a, a student staff fight back.
(14:01):
Of course, one place we aren't doing much of a fight back is
from the Nux, which I I've mentioned.
Traditionally they have at leastgiven lip service to the idea of
fighting for free education. Their most recent conference
policy that talks about funding talks about the need for a
government to bring in a plan toscrap tuition fees and fully
fund education. But that is completely gone from
(14:24):
the lips even of the NUS leadership.
Currently they've come out in response to the tuition fee
increase that Labour has introduced, saying that instead
there needs to be a balancing public and private investment in
higher education, which really is, I suppose a symbol of, you
know, how far back the NUS has fallen, but also the need
(14:45):
students to be fighting for a democratic socialist student
leadership nationally. And, you know, students could
start doing that by standing in students unions, elections,
which going on at the moment in in universities all across the
country, standing on a programmeof free, fully funded education.
The idea that universities should be under the democratic
(15:06):
control, students, staff and thewider communities, you know,
that would be a step forward. Just pointing to the need for
there to be, you know, democratic student organisations
that actually represent us. Of course, I've said a lot there
about, you know, potentially what could happen.
The fact is there isn't really being a clear lead put out
(15:27):
nationally for how we can fight these cuts, how we can fight for
free education. There is no major political
party, no political party in in government at the moment that's
calling for this. We would also say that, you
know, Jeremy Corbyn, you've inspired thousands and thousands
of young people to fight for free education when you were
(15:49):
leader. Why aren't you coming out and
doing the same now? But of course, the fight back
has to come from somewhere. And so Socialist Party members
in the universities and collegeshave put forward the idea
through Socialist Students, which is the the, the
organization that we take part in on the campuses.
We put forward the idea of a, a,a campaign called Funding, Not
(16:12):
Fees. Yeah.
Yeah. Can you tell us a bit more about
that funding, not fees? What is that?
I can. So that was originally a
campaign that socialist studentslaunched in response to the
threat of a tuition fee increase.
We looked at the fact that the universities were in a massive
crisis. The the Labour government coming
(16:33):
in was aware of the potential threat of a university
bankruptcy, which of course theywould want to avoid.
Not because they care about jobs, not because they care
about students, but because it would lead to huge pressure on
them to intervene, to have to beseen to be protecting jobs.
And you know, who would want to be an MP in any town or city
(16:59):
where universities around the country are are one of the
biggest employers? Who would want to be an MP in
that situation, having to face the reality of thousands and
thousands of jobs being lost in in their community?
And so we thought that, you know, Labour would introduce
some measure within the narrow constraints that they had to
(17:19):
work with in terms of the crisisrich capitalism.
We thought they would introduce some measure and because of
their pro big business, pro catalyst credentials, we thought
it was most likely that they would try and increase tuition
fees to make students and staff pay even more rather than
looking to make big business pay.
And of course that is what has happened.
(17:41):
However, we don't think actuallyfrom our experience of
campaigning in the university and the colleges that the issue
of the tuition fee rise itself has been as big an issue.
I mean, obviously that's what funding of fees, as it's name
suggests, was originally introduced to, you know, a set
up to to campaign around. What we have noticed is actually
(18:03):
the issue of cuts is a huge mobilising factor on lots of
campuses at the moment. And I think a great example is
what's going on in Cardiff University where Socialist Party
members and Socialist students and also in the trade union
movement locally have really been able to spearhead a
campaign called Cardiff StudentsAgainst the Cuts.
(18:23):
And within hours of finding out about these cuts, our members,
our comrades, went out with a new leaflet, a new poster built
for a meeting the following week, which we got over 70 along
to, that included members of other student societies, members
from the local community, students union offices as well
as trade union members. And they got together and
(18:45):
planned, you know, a fighting response, had a very successful
rally with hundreds along there just a few days later.
And I think you do have to say it's no coincidence then that
just last week the Welsh Labour Government has announced
90,000,000 lbs of extra funding to higher education, which is
completely inadequate but nonetheless has shifted them
(19:08):
from a position of saying we were not going to give any new
money to higher education to a position where they have had to
give some crumbs at least. And we think that that example
in Cardiff really offered a fighting example for how local
campaigns being built against the cuts, fighting instead for
the idea of, you know, the need for full funding to higher
education. That model could be replicated
(19:31):
nationally and, and, and link upinto, you know, the basis of a
really powerful movement. And that's really what funding,
not fees is for. And we produce, you know,
campaign material. And we talked about the idea of
a movement for for for funding for not fees to reject this
latest tuition fee rise to instead fight for the scrapping
(19:52):
of tuition fees, the cancellation of student debt, to
fight for rent controls of student accommodation, for
living maintenance grants ratherthan students loans, to end low
pay, casualisation of staff. And we think that is the the
outlines of, you know, a programthat could unite all these
different groups are going to befighting back on campus to, you
(20:15):
know, build a build a really successful campaign.
And I suppose I can just tell you about one of, you know, the
other initiatives that we're trying to do through funding,
not fees, because of course we do want maths meetings, but we
want a plan of action out of those meetings.
And we've also been a socialist student planning like lobbies of
(20:35):
local MPs, because we think thatalso this, this, this struggle
against cuts and against fees needs a a political voice which
currently does not exist. And so we're going to be
messaging local MPs, putting pressure on them to back the
funding not fees campaign publicly to put an amendment in
(20:56):
the June spending review againstany bill that tries to make
students and staff pay even morefor the crisis in education.
We can't forget that Labour, when they increased tuition fees
last year, have said that they're also looking at a wider
overhaul. And so I think we have to say
that the cuts that are going on at the moment, the tuition fee
(21:17):
increase, all of this is a test by Labour and the university
bosses to, to, to, to test our resolve to see how serious
students and staff are in terms of fighting back.
And we need to have a level of cohesion, battle readiness to
take on, you know, even bigger attacks that could be coming
down the line. So as well as universities,
(21:40):
you've got councils in crisis, schools crumbling and
underfunded. There's no shortage of battle
lines being drawn against this Labour government.
So, as well as on the universities, what should
students do to fight back more generally?
Yeah. And that's a good point because
I suppose there I've, I've kind of touched on the idea of of
funding, not fees campaign bringing together students and
(22:01):
staff on the campus. Of course, I think we also have
to be looking at all of the struggles that are going on
elsewhere in society, which are of course not disconnected from,
you know, the, the, the chaos I've just outlined in the
university. I mean, really it is all a
symptom of British capitalism in, in crisis, whether that's
(22:23):
like you say, in councils, in schools, in all areas of public
services. And there are other sections of
the working class that are goingto be fighting back and already
are fighting back. We saw sixth form teachers
taking strike action this year and, and, and before Christmas.
There's also the, the 2.8% pay offer to public sector workers,
(22:44):
which is going to be met with resistance.
So I think it's important that students also connect our
struggle for free, fully funded education to the fight of, you
know, the, the working class more widely against the Stama
government and, and the capitalist system that it that
it defends. Great.
Thanks, Sarah. Great.
Thanks. For the next stuff, if you're
(23:05):
not yet a member of the Socialist Party and agree with
the points raised today, then get in touch on our website
www.socialistparty.org.uk to find out what being a member
will mean for you. Our website is packed with more
political analysis and you can subscribe to our weekly paper,
The Socialist, and our monthly magazine, Socialism Today,
(23:26):
getting them delivered to your door or an E subscription to
your e-mail. The Socialist Party has no big
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And if you agree that we need analternative to war, capitalism
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