January 23, 2025 • 39 mins
Today’s podcast is a discussion with Socialist Party General Secretary Hannah Sell, introducing the party’s new document on British perspectives produced by the National Committee.
This important document is being distributed to all members for reading and discussion ahead of the Socialist Party National Congress in March. At the Congress, the document will be debated with a vote of delegates from the branches.
There are many more points in it than can be discussed in one podcast! Socialist Party branches will be organising meetings nationally to discuss it and the chance to discuss it individually too. Here is a list of socialist party branch meetings: www.socialistparty.org.uk/events
If you are not yet a member of the Socialist Party and agree with the points raised here, then that’s a very good basis for getting in touch and finding out what being a member will mean for you. Fill in this form for more information: www.socialistparty.org.uk/join
You can also read more of our analysis in our weekly paper 'the Socialist' and our monthly magazine 'Socialism Today,' Here is a link to subscribe: www.socialistparty.org.uk/subscribe-2/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
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(00:22):
Our website is packed with even more political analysis and you
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The Socialist Party has no big business backers.
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(00:45):
agree that we need an alternative to capitalism, then
make a donation today. Today's podcast is a discussion
with Socialist Party General Secretary Hannah Sell,
introducing the party's new document on British
perspectives. Produced by the National
Committee, this important document is being distributed to
all members for reading and discussion ahead of the
(01:08):
Socialist Party National Congress this March.
At the Congress, the document will be debated with a vote of
delegates from all the differentbranches around the country.
There's many, many more points in the document that can be
discussed in one podcast, and Socialist Party branches will be
organizing meetings to discuss and also the chance to discuss
(01:30):
it individually too. So if you're interested in what
you hear today, get in touch with your local branch to find
out more and enjoy the rest of the episode.
Hi Hannah, thanks for joining me.
So today we were discussing the British Perspectives document.
That's right, yes. And what is that?
So we have our national conference coming up in March
(01:52):
and we begin it with a discussion on the world
actually, but then we discuss British perspectives.
And the reason we do that is because for us the starting
point is always objectively what's taking place in society.
You know, Mark said conditions determine consciousness.
(02:12):
And if capitalism in Britain wasabout to deliver everybody
loving lovely living standards and take serious action to solve
climate change, then there will be very limited prospects for
building the Socialist Party. So before we come to our
practical conclusions about the work we do, we start with
discussing perspectives for Britain.
(02:32):
And, and we're going to talk about some of it today.
But if you're a member of the Socialist Party, I would really
say this is like a little taster.
There's a lot more in the document than I think we're
going to have time to. Do great.
Thanks Senator. So my first question is what
will be the fate of the establishment parties, Labour
and the Tories, in the coming period?
(02:54):
It's a really important question.
I do think the kind of ailing scrolotic, I can't say the word
sclerotic character of British capitalism has resulted in the
hollowing out of our main establishment parties over a
long period of time. And I think we in the Socialist
(03:15):
Party and maybe working class people in general in Britain,
we're kind of so used to it, we forget the significance of it.
The Tory Party was such basket cases for their last period in
office that their devastating collapse almost like passes us
by. But but we should not forget how
(03:35):
big what has happened actually is.
This was the most successful capitalist party on the planet
in the 1950s. They had almost 3 million
members. They had a trade union ring, you
know, they had a serious social base. 95,000 people voted in the
recent Tory leadership election.That's how much they've
(03:56):
collapsed. And in the general election,
they had their worst defeat in their existence since 1830.
Different dates you can take at the beginning, but let's say
1830. So a devastating defeat for the
Tory Party. The most important thing for us
to understand is it's not that the crisis in the Tory party has
(04:19):
created a crisis for British capitalism, it's the other way
round. In the end it was the crisis of
British capitalism that has destroyed or is destroying the
Tory party and the same is goingto happen to Labour as well.
As far as the Tories go, what's their future?
I, I think it's quite difficult to say precisely what is going
(04:41):
to happen to this broken shell of a party.
Right now. The kind of more serious
representatives of capitalism that are still in the Tory party
are sitting on the backbenches hoping things are going to get
better. But it's a bit of a sign of
their weakness, uselessness. They couldn't even get their
candidate on the ballot paper for the ballot that went out to
(05:02):
the Tory party membership. But I don't think they're about
to walk away from the Tory Partybecause the more serious
capitalists also understand thatwhat's happened to the Tories
will happen to Labour. But it might be governing in
their interests right now. But it's going to hit real
crises, so they need a second 11.
So they're probably going to tryand stick Humpty back together
(05:24):
again and make something out of the Tory party.
But whether they succeed, how that plays out, I wouldn't like
to bet on that. I think we have to be prepared
for all kinds of reconfigurations of the
establishment parties under the pressure of events in the next
period, like we've seen in othercountries where parties of
hundreds of years standing have disappeared, New parties have
(05:45):
come into existence. But what we can say for definite
is none of them are going to have a stable social base.
They're going to be inherently weak and stable parties.
And that's a reflection of the. Crisis.
I think it's very difficult to talk about the political
situation in Britain without mentioning the elephant in the
(06:06):
room the recently. Today.
Exactly today on his inauguration.
Trump's election. So how will that affect Britain
politically? But more importantly, how will
it affect it economically? OK, Obviously this the the
election of Trump is a great bigquestion and we'll have other
podcasts that deal with it in a general way.
(06:27):
But I do think it matters when we're talking about British
perspectives to talk about what effect it's going to have for
British capitalism and for this government and, and none of it's
good. I think that's that's the short
answer. Obviously Starmer has been going
on about his constructive relationship with Trump.
What a lovely dinner they had together last year.
(06:49):
And he's kind of begging for AUSUK trade deal.
And that's normal. Capitalist politicians suck up
to new US presidents in the hopeof trying to get something
because it's still the most powerful country in the world.
It doesn't make it any less sickening, but it is absolutely
normal behaviour for a capitalist politician.
But it's not going to get them atrade deal.
(07:11):
And fundamentally, nothing can prevent British capitalism being
particularly vulnerable to what Trump represents.
And it's not just about him. We've already seen that really,
with the bond market jitters earlier this month and the fall
in sterling. British capitalism is outside of
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any of the major trading blocs. It's a weaker power and it's
extremely reliant on foreign capital and all of that makes it
very vulnerable to what is currently taking place.
We can't go in depth into the broader issues here today, but I
suppose the bottom line is that the US is trying to put the rest
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of the world on rations. It's trying to protect it's own
markets, particularly against China, but actually against all
other economies. And it's doing that by
protectionist measures, by tariffs, but also state
subsidies and other things. And that was true under Trump,
Mark one. It was true under Biden.
He didn't get rid of those tariffs and he introduced a lot
(08:15):
more state subsidies. And it's going to be true in a
bigger way again, under this second Trump presidency.
One of the fundamental contradictions of capitalism
that Mark's described is the contradiction between the nation
state and the world market. And that's that's always been
there. But different things are
dominant at different times. So in the 90s and the noughties,
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US imperialism was in favour of globalization, of increasing
World Trade, all in it's own interest.
Of course it wasn't doing it forthe good of humanity, but it did
increase massively in that period of time.
But today it's it's not in it's interest anymore.
So it's putting the barriers up and where the US has LED, other
countries have followed. There's been a huge increase in
(09:00):
the number of state subsidies, tariffs and so on around the
world in the last period. You could say really we've got a
kind of multi polar world with the US as still the strongest
but a a weakening power relatively.
Then China and then a whole number of other powers who are
manoeuvring to try and defend their national interests in this
(09:23):
kind of swirl of a, a multi polar chaotic world situation.
And Britain is very vulnerable in that situation.
And that relates to the fact that Britain, I mean, let me
give concrete examples of thingsthat are going to happen which
will lead to splits in this government.
(09:45):
They're cosying up to the EU at the moment.
They want to get a better trade deal with the EU.
They also want a trade deal withTrump.
They're not going to be able to get a trade deal with the EU if
they accept US Food Standards ofchlorine washed chicken and all
the rest of it, but vice versa. You know, they they can't do
both. And that's going to be true on
(10:06):
every issue. Rachel Reeves has gone to China.
They want to get Chinese electric vehicles.
That will mean a threat of tariffs from Trump on every
occasion. They're going to face a choice
between bad options, none of which will be good for British
capitalism. And all of that is before the
next global economic crisis, which is definitely coming.
(10:28):
Capitalism is a cyclical system.At the moment, most of the
advanced economies are kind of bumping along the bottom,
stagnant like Britain barely growing.
In formal terms, the US is doingbetter.
There is actually growth in the US economy.
It's not how it feels for many US workers.
Hence the presidential election results.
But the stock markets are soaring, and they're going to
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soar more now on the basis of Trump's victory.
And he's pumping up those stock markets.
All these speculative bubbles, that's what they are.
Even cryptomania is, you know, buying into and pumping up.
But that will burst at a certainstage and lead to a new economic
crisis. And I suppose then the other
thing we have to bear in mind isif you go back to the Great
(11:14):
Recession, the 2000 and seven, 2008 crisis, which British
capitalism has never recovered from, that wasn't as bad as it
might have been because US imperialism did still then act
to kind of coordinate a world response, really acted as the
world's banker, and that did lessen the effect.
Contrast that to the Great Depression.
(11:36):
The 1929 crash was not primary really cause of the Great
Depression, it was the response to it where US imperialism at
that point in time introduced shed loads of tariffs, 20,000
tariffs, and the rest of the world followed suit.
And then you got the Great Depression.
Is Trump in the White House? What response do you think we're
going to get to the next World economic crisis?
(11:59):
Actually, even Biden was on the same path and would not have
done the same as in 2008. But that is definitely true
about Trump. So none of it is going to be
good or ailing US capitalism. And I suppose the last thing I
just say on that is why did Britain suffer the worst in the
recent kind of bond market turmoil?
Because it did suffer the worst.But it wasn't anything British
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capitalism had done or the Reeves had done really.
It was what was taking place in the US.
It was the consequences of Trump's election.
But the reason that Britain suffered the worst is because
the bond markets can see how weak British capitalism is.
They can see that no government.Some of them maybe thought that
Rachel Rees really did have a magic wand and she would come up
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with some magic solution, but her budget showed she couldn't.
So it's vulnerable to attack. So it might have been caused in
the US, but it was Britain that suffered the most.
And that that's a little harbinger of what comes in the
future. There's there's a famous kind of
saying that when the US sneezes,the world catches a cold.
Well, that is particularly true for British capital.
(13:04):
So why is it that Britain in particular is so vulnerable when
it's economy is in such a bad state, even compared to say,
suffering economies like Germany, France?
Why is that? Why are we so crap?
Yeah. Look, there's, there's quite a
bit of explanation in the document on this and I think
branches should discuss that. And I am not going to give you
(13:24):
loads of statistics today because we've got a limited
time. But just to give you a couple,
since the Great Recession, our relative decline has
accelerated. So in 2023 Britain's economy was
22% smaller than it would have been if the pre Great Depression
trend had continued. Business investment is second
(13:48):
bottom. Out of the 38 OECD countries,
only Greece has a lower level ofinvestment than Britain and our
productivity growth and not surprisingly is less than half
the OECD average. So British capitalism is just
has very low productivity growth, low levels of
(14:08):
investment. It's a bit useless.
The reasons for that are complicated, but I suppose the
most basic point is it was the first capitalist power, it's the
oldest, and it's the most aged and decrepit as a result of
that. So I know that sounds simple,
but that is a big part of the explanation.
(14:30):
But I think that the other thingthat is worth just mentioning is
that at the time, maybe I'll deal with this later on.
Actually, yeah, I will deal withthat later on.
But I would just say, I'll say the other thing I'd say on this
is, of course, Starmer is sayinghe's going to change it.
That's their solution to everything and it just ain't
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going to work. Before the general election,
they were thinking maybe they could invest in green technology
and corner part of that market. But then they discovered China's
got it all already. There's there's no space for
British capitalism now how they're talking about AI.
Britain does not have a single one of the most powerful 500
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computers in the world. There is no chance of Britain
being a a global competitor on AI.
It's true that there are some British high tech start-ups.
They do exist. But what happens to them?
They get gobbled up by the giantUS tech companies and even the
few that remain independent generally move to the US.
(15:34):
And that's what's happening withBritish industry.
British companies, they moved tothe US stock market, 88 of them
I think did it last year alone, because there they hope a
greater investor, a greater profit, there's no point for
them in staying with British capital.
Though I know Labour are very unpopular at the moment, but
there's many people who are hoping against hope that they
will do something at least to improve workers rights.
(15:57):
And what do we think about that?Are they going to follow through
on some of their pre election pledges?
Well, I mean, look, we're the hardest fighters for every game
for the working class, so any law they pass which even
marginally helps working class people we will welcome.
But I think we've got to look atwhat they're doing and why
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they're doing it. Because this is a capitalist
government, that's kind of obvious to us.
But I think we have to restate it and also think through how
it's different to the Labour governments of the pre Tony
Blair era because in our view itis different.
Tony Blair's government and Brown and the others, they were
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capitalist governments. Prior to that we had Labour
governments that did act in the interests of the capitalist
class, but Labour was a capitalist Workers Party.
And what we mean by that is eventhough it's leaders defended
capitalism when push came to shove, nonetheless that it had a
working class basis of party andit had some democratic
(17:02):
structures that allowed the workers movement to express the
working class to put pressure onto influence what the leaders
did. And that is a different
situation to today. So to give you an example at
this, at last year's Labour Party conference, Unite and
other unions got a motion passedover the winter fuel allowance.
The year before CWU and other unions got a motion passed for
(17:26):
re nationalisation of Royal Mail.
They mean nothing. I mean I'm not we we're pleased
to see them passed. It's a sign of the mood of the
trade unions. But they have no effect on the
tops of the Labour Party. But it wasn't always like that.
So for example, I think in 1969 the in place of strife, which in
reality was anti trade union legislation, white paper was
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drafted by Labour. TUC got furious, called a
special conference, they had to ditch it.
They just got rid of it. The trade unions were able to
affect what Labour did in office.
That is not to die. Of course the trade unions can
affect what Labour does in office, the same as we can
affect what the Tories do in office by going on strike, by
fighting, but not through the structures of the Labour Party.
(18:12):
But there was another side to those historical governments.
I'm belabouring this point of bit.
Don't worry, I won't go on aboutother things for so long.
Because the other side was that also made Labour a very useful
2nd 11 for the capitalist class.Because there would be times
when the Tories just couldn't get things through in the
interest of the capitalist classand Labour as a party workers
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saw as theirs was actually more able to get anti working class
legislation. Today the majority of the
capitalist class wanted this Labour government because the
Tory party was falling apart, but also because they thought
workers will think this is theirgovernment and so they'll accept
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a new round of austerity. They won't go on strike the way
they've gone on strike in the last few years.
Now of course that ain't going to work because working class
people don't see Labour as theirs in the way they did in
the past. But a lot of the trade union
leaders will do their best to make that come to pass.
If they don't strike, hold off. Otherwise we'll get the Tories
back or maybe even reform this lot of better.
(19:20):
And they had to give some crumbsto make that work.
So there is some workers rights legislation, there is a promise
to far too slowly but to appeal some anti trade union
legislation. Even if they repeal every bit of
it that they said they're going to repeal, we'll still have the
same anti union legislation as in the Tony Blair era, which he
(19:40):
correctly said was the most repressive anti trade union
legislation in the western world.
So let's not get carried away with what they're doing, but
they're doing that in order to try and say, look, we are a
party for workers and therefore to be able to get away with
carrying out attacks on the working class and we can't fall
for that. We've got to warn against that
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idea. It's the same with this stuff
about partnership and it's just come out publicly today.
I think the education unions, and it'll happen with other
unions as well-being invited to commit to defending the common
interests. Of the government, the education
unions and the education employers.
We oppose that. We don't have common interests
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with employers. The job of unions is to defend
the interests of their members and the broader working class.
But it's that idea. Look, we're with you, we're on
your side. Let's all be together to try and
cut across struggle. Of course, if that was to work,
I think they've said the workersrights legislation is going to
cost employers £5 billion a year.
(20:44):
Frankly that would be a bargain for the bosses if that stopped
class struggle. But it's not going to work.
Education, for example, the teachers and education workers
are being offered, schools workers are being offered 2.8%
next year unfunded. That means massive further cuts
in education. There's no bit of paper about
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working together that is going to stop the pressure from below
to fight against that. So, so none of it's going to
work. But nonetheless, that is why
they're doing it. It's a kind of last appeal to
what Labour used to be, but being used frankly by the bosses
in order to attack their workingcosts.
Excellent. So you mentioned there some of
the attacks that we've faced so far like the two child benefit
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cap, the winter fuel payment, the Waspy women payments.
And that's before they unleashedmassive further austerity and
cut public services. And in the vacuum or in the mass
anger there, the far right and the populist right are trying to
fill that political void. So how much of A threat are
Reform UK and could they win thenext election even?
(21:52):
Next election's a very long way off.
But look, you're right. This is, I mean, it's not just a
British trend, it it's an international trend.
Look at the US, look at France. There's lots of different
countries where right populist or far right and, and I think it
would be right to call reform right.
Populist formations are steppinginto the vacuum, the anger
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against all of the mainstream capitalist politicians.
And particularly in many countries like in Britain, in
the absence of genuine mass workers parties, they're being
picked up by a section of the working class as a means to
express their Rage Against the elites.
And that's happening with reformhere in Britain.
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I think though, we have to not fall into the trap, which you
could easily fall into as a Guardian reader perhaps of
seeing these right populist formations.
I'm not accusing you of being a Guardian read, and there's
nothing wrong with reading the Guardian critically, but these
right populist formations as being solely responsible for
whipping up racism and nationalism.
(23:00):
I mean, let's be clear about this.
As we were referring to earlier,capitalism is based on nation
states with deep rooted sort of national consciousness, and the
capitalist class have always been willing to RIP up racism
and nationalism when it suits their interests in order to do
(23:21):
so. And it didn't help them in the
general election. But the Tories were whipping up
anti migrant feeling like crazy in the run up to the general
election. And of course Labour are
continuing in basically the sameway.
So this is a reflection of capitalism in crisis.
It's not just about Reform or Farage's kind of media presence
(23:42):
or, or, or whatever. And I also think, well, I
suppose what other things shouldwe say?
Certainly Reformer now surging in the polls.
We can all see that. And they've had a base for a
while. Or rather Farageism has had a
base because he's gone under different names, hasn't he?
But if you go back to the 2015 general election, UKIP got
(24:05):
almost 4 million votes. That is only slightly less than
they got in the general electionthis year.
But the collapse of the Tory party meant that this year they
got 5 MPs elected. But now with growing hatred of
Labour, clearly they can win more, they can get further
electoral victories. So I think we have to be careful
not to interpret that as meaningthat every Reform voter is some
(24:29):
kind of hardened race, because that is absolutely not the case.
Let's remember those UKIP votersI was just talking about, more
than a million of them switched from UKIP to Jeremy Corbyn in
2017 and that shows primarily they were expressing their anger
about what capitalism meant for them and they could be 1 to a
(24:50):
left wing and anti racist candidate in that election.
Nor do I think we should draw the conclusion that this
reflects a generalized move to the right in society or the kind
of balance of forces at this point in time.
And I think the summer far rightriots are a very good example of
that because obviously they werehorrific.
(25:12):
And if you were going to a mosque under threat of attack or
in one of those asylum centres that was attacked, they were
terrifying. So we're not underestimating
them. But there were only about 15,000
people actually took part in them, whereas the counter
protests were far, far bigger. And actually, you know, Labour
(25:33):
politicians that Met Police weretelling everybody to stay at
home, don't come out and protest.
But the demos were so powerful they had to bend and say and
welcome them in inverted commerce.
And you know, King Charles goes to Walthamstow to welcome their
marvellous multiculturalism. That's a reflection of the
establishment having to try and incorporate that movement
(25:54):
because of its power at this point in time.
So we shouldn't go too far on what the balance of forces is,
but we also shouldn't underestimate the danger.
There's no doubt that in generalanti migrant feeling being
whipped up gives confidence to far right racist thugs and that
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we can see more and potentially bigger outbursts like the
lightning flashes we saw over the summer.
And therefore our campaign that the workers movement has to take
seriously the struggle against racism, has to be prepared to
organise proper stewarding against far right demonstrations
and critically has to organise around class slogans, you know,
(26:36):
jobs, homes, services for all, not racism.
Rather than just condemning anyone who's voted for reform as
a racist, it has to make a classappeal and in that way than cut
across it. So I think that's a kind of
balance of where we're at at themoment.
What's going to happen in the future.
I mean, I think the most important thing to say is even
(26:59):
if Farage was to achieve his wildest dreams and to be the
next Prime Minister, as you mentioned, what would that
actually mean? We're a long way from that at
the moment because he's doing well in opinion polls right now,
but it's an extremely unstable populist party which is already
(27:23):
splitting. By next year's elections we
could have five different reforms competing against each
other, so we shouldn't get too far ahead about how far this is
going to go. But even if that was to happen,
that would be on the basis of Labour being hated, of the
Tories collapsing completely, and you would have a minority
government coming to power on the basis of a deep crisis of
(27:45):
capitalism. Would that be a powerful
government capable of taking on the working class?
Or would it be an extremely weakgovernment which would face mass
movements of the working class against it?
And I think it's clear it will be the latter.
So we have to see things. We've got to be open on how far
reform go or whether it's some new right populist project and
exactly what happens. But we have to recognise the
(28:07):
extreme weakness will be of any such formation.
So you mentioned the the weakness of a potential reform
government, but Starmer has alsobeen elected on a very low turn
out. Absolutely.
And what forms of struggle were we likely to see against further
austerity from his government? I mean, so many, that's the
thing, as you said, they were elected on the lowest share of
(28:31):
the electorate of any governmentsince 1919.
So they were unpopular last Julyin reality.
But I've got a lot more than popular since then.
And we are definitely going to see strike action.
Actually we already are. 6 formshave been out on strike, the
Birmingham bin workers. It's not like there's no strikes
at the moment. But what is coming down the
(28:52):
track that they're delaying the public sector spending review
while they fight behind the scenes.
What they're fighting about is who has to carry the biggest
cuts. It's going to be cuts across the
board, that's the reality. But that is going to create
enormous anger in the trade unions.
The fact that they've already said no more than 2.8% in the
(29:13):
pay rounds next year has meant that even the most pro labour
unions, Unison Health for example, their leadership have
been very labour loyalists. They've had to come out talking
a good fight, saying that they're going to have to take
action because it's so bad and the pressure from below is so
great. And I think we also have to take
(29:34):
into account that while the number of activists in the
unions is still quite thin, really it's a lot bigger than it
was. And there was a new generation
who came into action in the strike wave.
So they've they've got the idea if things are bad, you can do
something about it and you do something about it via
collective action. That's now ingrained in a new
(29:55):
generation of union activists and they will exert pressure for
action. So we could see a new national
white strike wave over the question of pay out of the next
pay round. It may not work out like that,
but there's certainly going to be new strikes on pay but also
on cuts, all kinds of cuts. The NHS, it's cuts in reality,
(30:19):
whatever they say, local authority cuts are going to be
massive and we will be fighting in every sector for the maximum
possible action and working withthat new layer of militant
activists to achieve that. But I think it's not only going
to be the question of industrialaction.
I mean, I mentioned there the council cuts that affects the
workforce, but it also affects the community that we're losing
(30:41):
services and new community campaigns on those issues are
already starting to develop, particularly in Scotland and
Wales. And we can see more broadly and
we fight to play a role in bringing the different disparate
campaigns together and the workforces together, but needs
budgets against any cuts rather than falling into we don't want
our service cut, but we don't mind if another one does and so
(31:03):
on to try and get united campaigns.
So I think we'll see those, but all sorts of other stuff.
We have to be prepared for new riots, but as also new anti war
movements after the powerful movement on Gaza.
And let's remember I was talkingabout the effects of Trump
earlier. British capitalism's general
(31:24):
position is to back up whatever US imperialism does.
Starmer already lost votes even before he was elected as a
result of backing up US imperialism in its support for
the IDF onslaught on Gaza. There's going to be new anti war
movements and that will certainly be a feature, but also
(31:45):
climate change, anti racist women's movements.
I don't think we're going to have a problem of of there not
big battles taking place. We may have the opposite problem
that we feel drowned by the number of different struggles
that develop and not not necessarily all at once but over
a period of time. I think the Perspectives
document does briefly emphasise the importance of the struggle
(32:05):
on the campuses and that is worth just mentioning because
the university funding crisis, it was one of the issues on the
shit list that Labour had beforethey came to power, drawn up by
the now gone SU Grey, and that has not gone away.
A tiny hike in tuition fees willmake students angry, but it's
going to do nothing to stop cuts.
(32:27):
So students are paying more at the same time as huge cuts on
campus. There's probably future
reorganisation of student funding ahead and we can play an
important role in the movements that will take place in that, on
that, on the country. So you mentioned there are a lot
of different disparate movementsand I think one of our key
demands is trying to bring thosetogether and organise them into
a political form in the form of a new Workers Party.
(32:49):
So what are the prospects for that over the next few years?
The long standing members of theSocialist Party have been busy
calling for a a new Workers Party for a very long time and
perhaps sometimes feel like we do it out of routine.
But there has never been a more important time fight for this
demand than now. Honestly, it's really lodged in
(33:12):
the objective situation. Like we've discussed previously,
objectively the possibility was there well before the general
election. Think back to the strike wave,
to union leaders involved in that strike wave launching the
Enough is enough campaign. 500,000 people signed up.
That dwarfs the membership of the Tory party.
It dwarfs the membership of Reform.
(33:34):
It showed the potential but a new mass Workers Party.
Unfortunately those leaders saw it as leading back to Labour
rather than being a new party. So as we expected, there was no
new party in the general election, but still the election
of Jeremy Corbyn as an independent and also the other 4
Gaza independents. That does show the potential in
(33:58):
that general election for a new party and yes, particularly the
four other independents, not Jeremy.
They were primarily elected by asection of the working class
from a Muslim background who broke with Labour specifically
over the question of Gaza. Honestly, six months in, isn't
it clear that if an alternative existed, they would also be
(34:20):
joined by other sections of the working class who are furious
about what Labour is doing and we prepared to vote for a left
alternative. So.
So the objective potential is there.
Of course, that doesn't mean it's simple getting a new party,
and there's lots of different things to discuss about the
process of how a new party couldbe formed, some of the
(34:40):
complications and so on. And we do deal with those in the
Perspectives document and also actually in last year's British
Perspectives document, which is worth Socialist Party members
rereading. But I think what is really
important for us to emphasise isthat while we relate positively
to any steps towards left candidates, standing in
(35:02):
elections, new left formations and so on, we don't call for a
new Left party, we call for a Workers Party.
And the most important debates are the debates that are going
to take place in the trade unions.
More than 6,000,000 workers who are organised, many of whom not
all by any means are part of unions that are affiliated to
(35:25):
Labour and pay money to Labour. Even under Tony Blair and New
Labour, Mark one, that issue wasposed, the firefighters
disaffiliated. Bob Crow was the leader of the
Transport Workers Union, worked with us to found the Trade
Unionist and Socialist Coalition.
So it came up last time, it's going to come up a whole heap
more this time around. The idea that workers keep
(35:48):
paying money to a party, you know, paying the hand that's
beating you around the face, whywould you do that?
So the question of disaffiliation is going to come
up, but not just that, the need for a positive political
alternative. Now there'll be opposition to
that, there'll be union leaders who keep saying that we've just
got about Labour, or we'll get Nigel Farage and when that
(36:11):
doesn't work, who say well we better just stay out of
politics. We don't want to be involved in
elections, let's just concentrate on industrial
disputes. So it's not that we're not going
to face opposition, but amongst ordinary trade unionists those
questions are going to be posed.And whatever their limits, the
existence of the block of five independents and also the
(36:32):
suspended Labour MPs have been suspended for voting against the
two child benefit cap being lifted.
And on the winter fuel allowance, that is a putative
workers block in parliament. And Trajinius is going to be
thinking why aren't we funding them to set a party up instead
of giving money to Labour. And I think there's one other
big push factor and that actually is reform, because if
(36:54):
the unions just fund Labour or step out of politics, you're
leaving a vacuum and it's clear people are going to express
their anger somehow for the needfor the working class to have
it's own party to offer a positive, anti racist socialist
alternative. Those debates are going to come
and we've got to be at the forefront of them.
(37:15):
Why does this matter to us? Fundamentally, it matters to us
because we want to overthrow capitalism, we want to build a
new socialist society, and the class that is capable of doing
that is the working class. So any step towards the working
class being more confident in its own collective power, in
(37:37):
being a potential governmental alternative, is a step forward.
And you can't just achieve that industrially, you need to have a
political voice as well. So it's potentially a very
important step forward and that's why we fight for it.
But I think we also have to be clear in the Socialist Party, we
don't just want a mass Workers Party, we want to overthrow
capitalism. We want a new socialist order.
(38:00):
And that means a Workers Party that has drawn the necessary
conclusions that you can't gradually turn capitalism into a
further, fairer system. It's rotten and it's got to be
overthrown. So for us, we fight for every
step forward for the working class, including a new Workers
Party, including industrial militant, trade unionism.
(38:21):
But we also fight to build the Socialist Party as a party with
a clear programme for the socialist transformation of
society. And we are very confident on the
basis of the mess the British capitalism is in, the struggles
that are coming against the consequences of that.
There's going to be big opportunities even if we weren't
there. There will be more and more
working class people drawing theconclusions that we've drawn,
(38:44):
but with us there we can speed that process up and all.
Great. Thanks, Anna.
So no problem for joining me. I'll see you next time.
See you next time. So hopefully what you've heard
today is got you fired up and ready to get campaigning to
build an alternative to the mainstream capitalist parties.
And if you're not yet a member of the Socialist Party and agree
(39:04):
with what you heard today, then get in touch on our website
www.socialistparty.org.uk to find out what being a member
will mean for you. We've got much more political
analysis on our website and you can also subscribe to our weekly
paper The Socialist and our monthly magazine Socialism
Today. Again, the Socialist Party has
(39:25):
no big, big business backers, sowe rely on all our campaign
funding from individual donations.
And if you agree that we need analternative to capitalism, make
a donation today. So that's it from today's
podcast and hit subscribe to never miss an episodes.
I'll see you next time.
Hello and welcome to Socialism, the Marxist podcast from the
Socialist Party. Hit subscribe today to never
miss an episode. If you're not yet a member of
the Socialist Party and agree with the points raised today,
then get in touch on our websitewww.socialistparty.org.uk to
find out what being a member will mean for you.
(00:22):
Our website is packed with even more political analysis and you
can subscribe to our weekly paper, The Socialist, and our
monthly magazine, Socialism Today, getting them delivered to
your door or an E subscription to your e-mail.
The Socialist Party has no big business backers.
We rely on support from individual donations and if you
(00:45):
agree that we need an alternative to capitalism, then
make a donation today. Today's podcast is a discussion
with Socialist Party General Secretary Hannah Sell,
introducing the party's new document on British
perspectives. Produced by the National
Committee, this important document is being distributed to
all members for reading and discussion ahead of the
(01:08):
Socialist Party National Congress this March.
At the Congress, the document will be debated with a vote of
delegates from all the differentbranches around the country.
There's many, many more points in the document that can be
discussed in one podcast, and Socialist Party branches will be
organizing meetings to discuss and also the chance to discuss
(01:30):
it individually too. So if you're interested in what
you hear today, get in touch with your local branch to find
out more and enjoy the rest of the episode.
Hi Hannah, thanks for joining me.
So today we were discussing the British Perspectives document.
That's right, yes. And what is that?
So we have our national conference coming up in March
(01:52):
and we begin it with a discussion on the world
actually, but then we discuss British perspectives.
And the reason we do that is because for us the starting
point is always objectively what's taking place in society.
You know, Mark said conditions determine consciousness.
(02:12):
And if capitalism in Britain wasabout to deliver everybody
loving lovely living standards and take serious action to solve
climate change, then there will be very limited prospects for
building the Socialist Party. So before we come to our
practical conclusions about the work we do, we start with
discussing perspectives for Britain.
(02:32):
And, and we're going to talk about some of it today.
But if you're a member of the Socialist Party, I would really
say this is like a little taster.
There's a lot more in the document than I think we're
going to have time to. Do great.
Thanks Senator. So my first question is what
will be the fate of the establishment parties, Labour
and the Tories, in the coming period?
(02:54):
It's a really important question.
I do think the kind of ailing scrolotic, I can't say the word
sclerotic character of British capitalism has resulted in the
hollowing out of our main establishment parties over a
long period of time. And I think we in the Socialist
(03:15):
Party and maybe working class people in general in Britain,
we're kind of so used to it, we forget the significance of it.
The Tory Party was such basket cases for their last period in
office that their devastating collapse almost like passes us
by. But but we should not forget how
(03:35):
big what has happened actually is.
This was the most successful capitalist party on the planet
in the 1950s. They had almost 3 million
members. They had a trade union ring, you
know, they had a serious social base. 95,000 people voted in the
recent Tory leadership election.That's how much they've
(03:56):
collapsed. And in the general election,
they had their worst defeat in their existence since 1830.
Different dates you can take at the beginning, but let's say
1830. So a devastating defeat for the
Tory Party. The most important thing for us
to understand is it's not that the crisis in the Tory party has
(04:19):
created a crisis for British capitalism, it's the other way
round. In the end it was the crisis of
British capitalism that has destroyed or is destroying the
Tory party and the same is goingto happen to Labour as well.
As far as the Tories go, what's their future?
I, I think it's quite difficult to say precisely what is going
(04:41):
to happen to this broken shell of a party.
Right now. The kind of more serious
representatives of capitalism that are still in the Tory party
are sitting on the backbenches hoping things are going to get
better. But it's a bit of a sign of
their weakness, uselessness. They couldn't even get their
candidate on the ballot paper for the ballot that went out to
(05:02):
the Tory party membership. But I don't think they're about
to walk away from the Tory Partybecause the more serious
capitalists also understand thatwhat's happened to the Tories
will happen to Labour. But it might be governing in
their interests right now. But it's going to hit real
crises, so they need a second 11.
So they're probably going to tryand stick Humpty back together
(05:24):
again and make something out of the Tory party.
But whether they succeed, how that plays out, I wouldn't like
to bet on that. I think we have to be prepared
for all kinds of reconfigurations of the
establishment parties under the pressure of events in the next
period, like we've seen in othercountries where parties of
hundreds of years standing have disappeared, New parties have
(05:45):
come into existence. But what we can say for definite
is none of them are going to have a stable social base.
They're going to be inherently weak and stable parties.
And that's a reflection of the. Crisis.
I think it's very difficult to talk about the political
situation in Britain without mentioning the elephant in the
(06:06):
room the recently. Today.
Exactly today on his inauguration.
Trump's election. So how will that affect Britain
politically? But more importantly, how will
it affect it economically? OK, Obviously this the the
election of Trump is a great bigquestion and we'll have other
podcasts that deal with it in a general way.
(06:27):
But I do think it matters when we're talking about British
perspectives to talk about what effect it's going to have for
British capitalism and for this government and, and none of it's
good. I think that's that's the short
answer. Obviously Starmer has been going
on about his constructive relationship with Trump.
What a lovely dinner they had together last year.
(06:49):
And he's kind of begging for AUSUK trade deal.
And that's normal. Capitalist politicians suck up
to new US presidents in the hopeof trying to get something
because it's still the most powerful country in the world.
It doesn't make it any less sickening, but it is absolutely
normal behaviour for a capitalist politician.
But it's not going to get them atrade deal.
(07:11):
And fundamentally, nothing can prevent British capitalism being
particularly vulnerable to what Trump represents.
And it's not just about him. We've already seen that really,
with the bond market jitters earlier this month and the fall
in sterling. British capitalism is outside of
(07:31):
any of the major trading blocs. It's a weaker power and it's
extremely reliant on foreign capital and all of that makes it
very vulnerable to what is currently taking place.
We can't go in depth into the broader issues here today, but I
suppose the bottom line is that the US is trying to put the rest
(07:53):
of the world on rations. It's trying to protect it's own
markets, particularly against China, but actually against all
other economies. And it's doing that by
protectionist measures, by tariffs, but also state
subsidies and other things. And that was true under Trump,
Mark one. It was true under Biden.
He didn't get rid of those tariffs and he introduced a lot
(08:15):
more state subsidies. And it's going to be true in a
bigger way again, under this second Trump presidency.
One of the fundamental contradictions of capitalism
that Mark's described is the contradiction between the nation
state and the world market. And that's that's always been
there. But different things are
dominant at different times. So in the 90s and the noughties,
(08:40):
US imperialism was in favour of globalization, of increasing
World Trade, all in it's own interest.
Of course it wasn't doing it forthe good of humanity, but it did
increase massively in that period of time.
But today it's it's not in it's interest anymore.
So it's putting the barriers up and where the US has LED, other
countries have followed. There's been a huge increase in
(09:00):
the number of state subsidies, tariffs and so on around the
world in the last period. You could say really we've got a
kind of multi polar world with the US as still the strongest
but a a weakening power relatively.
Then China and then a whole number of other powers who are
manoeuvring to try and defend their national interests in this
(09:23):
kind of swirl of a, a multi polar chaotic world situation.
And Britain is very vulnerable in that situation.
And that relates to the fact that Britain, I mean, let me
give concrete examples of thingsthat are going to happen which
will lead to splits in this government.
(09:45):
They're cosying up to the EU at the moment.
They want to get a better trade deal with the EU.
They also want a trade deal withTrump.
They're not going to be able to get a trade deal with the EU if
they accept US Food Standards ofchlorine washed chicken and all
the rest of it, but vice versa. You know, they they can't do
both. And that's going to be true on
(10:06):
every issue. Rachel Reeves has gone to China.
They want to get Chinese electric vehicles.
That will mean a threat of tariffs from Trump on every
occasion. They're going to face a choice
between bad options, none of which will be good for British
capitalism. And all of that is before the
next global economic crisis, which is definitely coming.
(10:28):
Capitalism is a cyclical system.At the moment, most of the
advanced economies are kind of bumping along the bottom,
stagnant like Britain barely growing.
In formal terms, the US is doingbetter.
There is actually growth in the US economy.
It's not how it feels for many US workers.
Hence the presidential election results.
But the stock markets are soaring, and they're going to
(10:51):
soar more now on the basis of Trump's victory.
And he's pumping up those stock markets.
All these speculative bubbles, that's what they are.
Even cryptomania is, you know, buying into and pumping up.
But that will burst at a certainstage and lead to a new economic
crisis. And I suppose then the other
thing we have to bear in mind isif you go back to the Great
(11:14):
Recession, the 2000 and seven, 2008 crisis, which British
capitalism has never recovered from, that wasn't as bad as it
might have been because US imperialism did still then act
to kind of coordinate a world response, really acted as the
world's banker, and that did lessen the effect.
Contrast that to the Great Depression.
(11:36):
The 1929 crash was not primary really cause of the Great
Depression, it was the response to it where US imperialism at
that point in time introduced shed loads of tariffs, 20,000
tariffs, and the rest of the world followed suit.
And then you got the Great Depression.
Is Trump in the White House? What response do you think we're
going to get to the next World economic crisis?
(11:59):
Actually, even Biden was on the same path and would not have
done the same as in 2008. But that is definitely true
about Trump. So none of it is going to be
good or ailing US capitalism. And I suppose the last thing I
just say on that is why did Britain suffer the worst in the
recent kind of bond market turmoil?
Because it did suffer the worst.But it wasn't anything British
(12:21):
capitalism had done or the Reeves had done really.
It was what was taking place in the US.
It was the consequences of Trump's election.
But the reason that Britain suffered the worst is because
the bond markets can see how weak British capitalism is.
They can see that no government.Some of them maybe thought that
Rachel Rees really did have a magic wand and she would come up
(12:42):
with some magic solution, but her budget showed she couldn't.
So it's vulnerable to attack. So it might have been caused in
the US, but it was Britain that suffered the most.
And that that's a little harbinger of what comes in the
future. There's there's a famous kind of
saying that when the US sneezes,the world catches a cold.
Well, that is particularly true for British capital.
(13:04):
So why is it that Britain in particular is so vulnerable when
it's economy is in such a bad state, even compared to say,
suffering economies like Germany, France?
Why is that? Why are we so crap?
Yeah. Look, there's, there's quite a
bit of explanation in the document on this and I think
branches should discuss that. And I am not going to give you
(13:24):
loads of statistics today because we've got a limited
time. But just to give you a couple,
since the Great Recession, our relative decline has
accelerated. So in 2023 Britain's economy was
22% smaller than it would have been if the pre Great Depression
trend had continued. Business investment is second
(13:48):
bottom. Out of the 38 OECD countries,
only Greece has a lower level ofinvestment than Britain and our
productivity growth and not surprisingly is less than half
the OECD average. So British capitalism is just
has very low productivity growth, low levels of
(14:08):
investment. It's a bit useless.
The reasons for that are complicated, but I suppose the
most basic point is it was the first capitalist power, it's the
oldest, and it's the most aged and decrepit as a result of
that. So I know that sounds simple,
but that is a big part of the explanation.
(14:30):
But I think that the other thingthat is worth just mentioning is
that at the time, maybe I'll deal with this later on.
Actually, yeah, I will deal withthat later on.
But I would just say, I'll say the other thing I'd say on this
is, of course, Starmer is sayinghe's going to change it.
That's their solution to everything and it just ain't
(14:50):
going to work. Before the general election,
they were thinking maybe they could invest in green technology
and corner part of that market. But then they discovered China's
got it all already. There's there's no space for
British capitalism now how they're talking about AI.
Britain does not have a single one of the most powerful 500
(15:11):
computers in the world. There is no chance of Britain
being a a global competitor on AI.
It's true that there are some British high tech start-ups.
They do exist. But what happens to them?
They get gobbled up by the giantUS tech companies and even the
few that remain independent generally move to the US.
(15:34):
And that's what's happening withBritish industry.
British companies, they moved tothe US stock market, 88 of them
I think did it last year alone, because there they hope a
greater investor, a greater profit, there's no point for
them in staying with British capital.
Though I know Labour are very unpopular at the moment, but
there's many people who are hoping against hope that they
will do something at least to improve workers rights.
(15:57):
And what do we think about that?Are they going to follow through
on some of their pre election pledges?
Well, I mean, look, we're the hardest fighters for every game
for the working class, so any law they pass which even
marginally helps working class people we will welcome.
But I think we've got to look atwhat they're doing and why
(16:18):
they're doing it. Because this is a capitalist
government, that's kind of obvious to us.
But I think we have to restate it and also think through how
it's different to the Labour governments of the pre Tony
Blair era because in our view itis different.
Tony Blair's government and Brown and the others, they were
(16:39):
capitalist governments. Prior to that we had Labour
governments that did act in the interests of the capitalist
class, but Labour was a capitalist Workers Party.
And what we mean by that is eventhough it's leaders defended
capitalism when push came to shove, nonetheless that it had a
working class basis of party andit had some democratic
(17:02):
structures that allowed the workers movement to express the
working class to put pressure onto influence what the leaders
did. And that is a different
situation to today. So to give you an example at
this, at last year's Labour Party conference, Unite and
other unions got a motion passedover the winter fuel allowance.
The year before CWU and other unions got a motion passed for
(17:26):
re nationalisation of Royal Mail.
They mean nothing. I mean I'm not we we're pleased
to see them passed. It's a sign of the mood of the
trade unions. But they have no effect on the
tops of the Labour Party. But it wasn't always like that.
So for example, I think in 1969 the in place of strife, which in
reality was anti trade union legislation, white paper was
(17:48):
drafted by Labour. TUC got furious, called a
special conference, they had to ditch it.
They just got rid of it. The trade unions were able to
affect what Labour did in office.
That is not to die. Of course the trade unions can
affect what Labour does in office, the same as we can
affect what the Tories do in office by going on strike, by
fighting, but not through the structures of the Labour Party.
(18:12):
But there was another side to those historical governments.
I'm belabouring this point of bit.
Don't worry, I won't go on aboutother things for so long.
Because the other side was that also made Labour a very useful
2nd 11 for the capitalist class.Because there would be times
when the Tories just couldn't get things through in the
interest of the capitalist classand Labour as a party workers
(18:35):
saw as theirs was actually more able to get anti working class
legislation. Today the majority of the
capitalist class wanted this Labour government because the
Tory party was falling apart, but also because they thought
workers will think this is theirgovernment and so they'll accept
(18:56):
a new round of austerity. They won't go on strike the way
they've gone on strike in the last few years.
Now of course that ain't going to work because working class
people don't see Labour as theirs in the way they did in
the past. But a lot of the trade union
leaders will do their best to make that come to pass.
If they don't strike, hold off. Otherwise we'll get the Tories
back or maybe even reform this lot of better.
(19:20):
And they had to give some crumbsto make that work.
So there is some workers rights legislation, there is a promise
to far too slowly but to appeal some anti trade union
legislation. Even if they repeal every bit of
it that they said they're going to repeal, we'll still have the
same anti union legislation as in the Tony Blair era, which he
(19:40):
correctly said was the most repressive anti trade union
legislation in the western world.
So let's not get carried away with what they're doing, but
they're doing that in order to try and say, look, we are a
party for workers and therefore to be able to get away with
carrying out attacks on the working class and we can't fall
for that. We've got to warn against that
(20:02):
idea. It's the same with this stuff
about partnership and it's just come out publicly today.
I think the education unions, and it'll happen with other
unions as well-being invited to commit to defending the common
interests. Of the government, the education
unions and the education employers.
We oppose that. We don't have common interests
(20:24):
with employers. The job of unions is to defend
the interests of their members and the broader working class.
But it's that idea. Look, we're with you, we're on
your side. Let's all be together to try and
cut across struggle. Of course, if that was to work,
I think they've said the workersrights legislation is going to
cost employers £5 billion a year.
(20:44):
Frankly that would be a bargain for the bosses if that stopped
class struggle. But it's not going to work.
Education, for example, the teachers and education workers
are being offered, schools workers are being offered 2.8%
next year unfunded. That means massive further cuts
in education. There's no bit of paper about
(21:06):
working together that is going to stop the pressure from below
to fight against that. So, so none of it's going to
work. But nonetheless, that is why
they're doing it. It's a kind of last appeal to
what Labour used to be, but being used frankly by the bosses
in order to attack their workingcosts.
Excellent. So you mentioned there some of
the attacks that we've faced so far like the two child benefit
(21:28):
cap, the winter fuel payment, the Waspy women payments.
And that's before they unleashedmassive further austerity and
cut public services. And in the vacuum or in the mass
anger there, the far right and the populist right are trying to
fill that political void. So how much of A threat are
Reform UK and could they win thenext election even?
(21:52):
Next election's a very long way off.
But look, you're right. This is, I mean, it's not just a
British trend, it it's an international trend.
Look at the US, look at France. There's lots of different
countries where right populist or far right and, and I think it
would be right to call reform right.
Populist formations are steppinginto the vacuum, the anger
(22:18):
against all of the mainstream capitalist politicians.
And particularly in many countries like in Britain, in
the absence of genuine mass workers parties, they're being
picked up by a section of the working class as a means to
express their Rage Against the elites.
And that's happening with reformhere in Britain.
(22:39):
I think though, we have to not fall into the trap, which you
could easily fall into as a Guardian reader perhaps of
seeing these right populist formations.
I'm not accusing you of being a Guardian read, and there's
nothing wrong with reading the Guardian critically, but these
right populist formations as being solely responsible for
whipping up racism and nationalism.
(23:00):
I mean, let's be clear about this.
As we were referring to earlier,capitalism is based on nation
states with deep rooted sort of national consciousness, and the
capitalist class have always been willing to RIP up racism
and nationalism when it suits their interests in order to do
(23:21):
so. And it didn't help them in the
general election. But the Tories were whipping up
anti migrant feeling like crazy in the run up to the general
election. And of course Labour are
continuing in basically the sameway.
So this is a reflection of capitalism in crisis.
It's not just about Reform or Farage's kind of media presence
(23:42):
or, or, or whatever. And I also think, well, I
suppose what other things shouldwe say?
Certainly Reformer now surging in the polls.
We can all see that. And they've had a base for a
while. Or rather Farageism has had a
base because he's gone under different names, hasn't he?
But if you go back to the 2015 general election, UKIP got
(24:05):
almost 4 million votes. That is only slightly less than
they got in the general electionthis year.
But the collapse of the Tory party meant that this year they
got 5 MPs elected. But now with growing hatred of
Labour, clearly they can win more, they can get further
electoral victories. So I think we have to be careful
not to interpret that as meaningthat every Reform voter is some
(24:29):
kind of hardened race, because that is absolutely not the case.
Let's remember those UKIP votersI was just talking about, more
than a million of them switched from UKIP to Jeremy Corbyn in
2017 and that shows primarily they were expressing their anger
about what capitalism meant for them and they could be 1 to a
(24:50):
left wing and anti racist candidate in that election.
Nor do I think we should draw the conclusion that this
reflects a generalized move to the right in society or the kind
of balance of forces at this point in time.
And I think the summer far rightriots are a very good example of
that because obviously they werehorrific.
(25:12):
And if you were going to a mosque under threat of attack or
in one of those asylum centres that was attacked, they were
terrifying. So we're not underestimating
them. But there were only about 15,000
people actually took part in them, whereas the counter
protests were far, far bigger. And actually, you know, Labour
(25:33):
politicians that Met Police weretelling everybody to stay at
home, don't come out and protest.
But the demos were so powerful they had to bend and say and
welcome them in inverted commerce.
And you know, King Charles goes to Walthamstow to welcome their
marvellous multiculturalism. That's a reflection of the
establishment having to try and incorporate that movement
(25:54):
because of its power at this point in time.
So we shouldn't go too far on what the balance of forces is,
but we also shouldn't underestimate the danger.
There's no doubt that in generalanti migrant feeling being
whipped up gives confidence to far right racist thugs and that
(26:14):
we can see more and potentially bigger outbursts like the
lightning flashes we saw over the summer.
And therefore our campaign that the workers movement has to take
seriously the struggle against racism, has to be prepared to
organise proper stewarding against far right demonstrations
and critically has to organise around class slogans, you know,
(26:36):
jobs, homes, services for all, not racism.
Rather than just condemning anyone who's voted for reform as
a racist, it has to make a classappeal and in that way than cut
across it. So I think that's a kind of
balance of where we're at at themoment.
What's going to happen in the future.
I mean, I think the most important thing to say is even
(26:59):
if Farage was to achieve his wildest dreams and to be the
next Prime Minister, as you mentioned, what would that
actually mean? We're a long way from that at
the moment because he's doing well in opinion polls right now,
but it's an extremely unstable populist party which is already
(27:23):
splitting. By next year's elections we
could have five different reforms competing against each
other, so we shouldn't get too far ahead about how far this is
going to go. But even if that was to happen,
that would be on the basis of Labour being hated, of the
Tories collapsing completely, and you would have a minority
government coming to power on the basis of a deep crisis of
(27:45):
capitalism. Would that be a powerful
government capable of taking on the working class?
Or would it be an extremely weakgovernment which would face mass
movements of the working class against it?
And I think it's clear it will be the latter.
So we have to see things. We've got to be open on how far
reform go or whether it's some new right populist project and
exactly what happens. But we have to recognise the
(28:07):
extreme weakness will be of any such formation.
So you mentioned the the weakness of a potential reform
government, but Starmer has alsobeen elected on a very low turn
out. Absolutely.
And what forms of struggle were we likely to see against further
austerity from his government? I mean, so many, that's the
thing, as you said, they were elected on the lowest share of
(28:31):
the electorate of any governmentsince 1919.
So they were unpopular last Julyin reality.
But I've got a lot more than popular since then.
And we are definitely going to see strike action.
Actually we already are. 6 formshave been out on strike, the
Birmingham bin workers. It's not like there's no strikes
at the moment. But what is coming down the
(28:52):
track that they're delaying the public sector spending review
while they fight behind the scenes.
What they're fighting about is who has to carry the biggest
cuts. It's going to be cuts across the
board, that's the reality. But that is going to create
enormous anger in the trade unions.
The fact that they've already said no more than 2.8% in the
(29:13):
pay rounds next year has meant that even the most pro labour
unions, Unison Health for example, their leadership have
been very labour loyalists. They've had to come out talking
a good fight, saying that they're going to have to take
action because it's so bad and the pressure from below is so
great. And I think we also have to take
(29:34):
into account that while the number of activists in the
unions is still quite thin, really it's a lot bigger than it
was. And there was a new generation
who came into action in the strike wave.
So they've they've got the idea if things are bad, you can do
something about it and you do something about it via
collective action. That's now ingrained in a new
(29:55):
generation of union activists and they will exert pressure for
action. So we could see a new national
white strike wave over the question of pay out of the next
pay round. It may not work out like that,
but there's certainly going to be new strikes on pay but also
on cuts, all kinds of cuts. The NHS, it's cuts in reality,
(30:19):
whatever they say, local authority cuts are going to be
massive and we will be fighting in every sector for the maximum
possible action and working withthat new layer of militant
activists to achieve that. But I think it's not only going
to be the question of industrialaction.
I mean, I mentioned there the council cuts that affects the
workforce, but it also affects the community that we're losing
(30:41):
services and new community campaigns on those issues are
already starting to develop, particularly in Scotland and
Wales. And we can see more broadly and
we fight to play a role in bringing the different disparate
campaigns together and the workforces together, but needs
budgets against any cuts rather than falling into we don't want
our service cut, but we don't mind if another one does and so
(31:03):
on to try and get united campaigns.
So I think we'll see those, but all sorts of other stuff.
We have to be prepared for new riots, but as also new anti war
movements after the powerful movement on Gaza.
And let's remember I was talkingabout the effects of Trump
earlier. British capitalism's general
(31:24):
position is to back up whatever US imperialism does.
Starmer already lost votes even before he was elected as a
result of backing up US imperialism in its support for
the IDF onslaught on Gaza. There's going to be new anti war
movements and that will certainly be a feature, but also
(31:45):
climate change, anti racist women's movements.
I don't think we're going to have a problem of of there not
big battles taking place. We may have the opposite problem
that we feel drowned by the number of different struggles
that develop and not not necessarily all at once but over
a period of time. I think the Perspectives
document does briefly emphasise the importance of the struggle
(32:05):
on the campuses and that is worth just mentioning because
the university funding crisis, it was one of the issues on the
shit list that Labour had beforethey came to power, drawn up by
the now gone SU Grey, and that has not gone away.
A tiny hike in tuition fees willmake students angry, but it's
going to do nothing to stop cuts.
(32:27):
So students are paying more at the same time as huge cuts on
campus. There's probably future
reorganisation of student funding ahead and we can play an
important role in the movements that will take place in that, on
that, on the country. So you mentioned there are a lot
of different disparate movementsand I think one of our key
demands is trying to bring thosetogether and organise them into
a political form in the form of a new Workers Party.
(32:49):
So what are the prospects for that over the next few years?
The long standing members of theSocialist Party have been busy
calling for a a new Workers Party for a very long time and
perhaps sometimes feel like we do it out of routine.
But there has never been a more important time fight for this
demand than now. Honestly, it's really lodged in
(33:12):
the objective situation. Like we've discussed previously,
objectively the possibility was there well before the general
election. Think back to the strike wave,
to union leaders involved in that strike wave launching the
Enough is enough campaign. 500,000 people signed up.
That dwarfs the membership of the Tory party.
It dwarfs the membership of Reform.
(33:34):
It showed the potential but a new mass Workers Party.
Unfortunately those leaders saw it as leading back to Labour
rather than being a new party. So as we expected, there was no
new party in the general election, but still the election
of Jeremy Corbyn as an independent and also the other 4
Gaza independents. That does show the potential in
(33:58):
that general election for a new party and yes, particularly the
four other independents, not Jeremy.
They were primarily elected by asection of the working class
from a Muslim background who broke with Labour specifically
over the question of Gaza. Honestly, six months in, isn't
it clear that if an alternative existed, they would also be
(34:20):
joined by other sections of the working class who are furious
about what Labour is doing and we prepared to vote for a left
alternative. So.
So the objective potential is there.
Of course, that doesn't mean it's simple getting a new party,
and there's lots of different things to discuss about the
process of how a new party couldbe formed, some of the
(34:40):
complications and so on. And we do deal with those in the
Perspectives document and also actually in last year's British
Perspectives document, which is worth Socialist Party members
rereading. But I think what is really
important for us to emphasise isthat while we relate positively
to any steps towards left candidates, standing in
(35:02):
elections, new left formations and so on, we don't call for a
new Left party, we call for a Workers Party.
And the most important debates are the debates that are going
to take place in the trade unions.
More than 6,000,000 workers who are organised, many of whom not
all by any means are part of unions that are affiliated to
(35:25):
Labour and pay money to Labour. Even under Tony Blair and New
Labour, Mark one, that issue wasposed, the firefighters
disaffiliated. Bob Crow was the leader of the
Transport Workers Union, worked with us to found the Trade
Unionist and Socialist Coalition.
So it came up last time, it's going to come up a whole heap
more this time around. The idea that workers keep
(35:48):
paying money to a party, you know, paying the hand that's
beating you around the face, whywould you do that?
So the question of disaffiliation is going to come
up, but not just that, the need for a positive political
alternative. Now there'll be opposition to
that, there'll be union leaders who keep saying that we've just
got about Labour, or we'll get Nigel Farage and when that
(36:11):
doesn't work, who say well we better just stay out of
politics. We don't want to be involved in
elections, let's just concentrate on industrial
disputes. So it's not that we're not going
to face opposition, but amongst ordinary trade unionists those
questions are going to be posed.And whatever their limits, the
existence of the block of five independents and also the
(36:32):
suspended Labour MPs have been suspended for voting against the
two child benefit cap being lifted.
And on the winter fuel allowance, that is a putative
workers block in parliament. And Trajinius is going to be
thinking why aren't we funding them to set a party up instead
of giving money to Labour. And I think there's one other
big push factor and that actually is reform, because if
(36:54):
the unions just fund Labour or step out of politics, you're
leaving a vacuum and it's clear people are going to express
their anger somehow for the needfor the working class to have
it's own party to offer a positive, anti racist socialist
alternative. Those debates are going to come
and we've got to be at the forefront of them.
(37:15):
Why does this matter to us? Fundamentally, it matters to us
because we want to overthrow capitalism, we want to build a
new socialist society, and the class that is capable of doing
that is the working class. So any step towards the working
class being more confident in its own collective power, in
(37:37):
being a potential governmental alternative, is a step forward.
And you can't just achieve that industrially, you need to have a
political voice as well. So it's potentially a very
important step forward and that's why we fight for it.
But I think we also have to be clear in the Socialist Party, we
don't just want a mass Workers Party, we want to overthrow
capitalism. We want a new socialist order.
(38:00):
And that means a Workers Party that has drawn the necessary
conclusions that you can't gradually turn capitalism into a
further, fairer system. It's rotten and it's got to be
overthrown. So for us, we fight for every
step forward for the working class, including a new Workers
Party, including industrial militant, trade unionism.
(38:21):
But we also fight to build the Socialist Party as a party with
a clear programme for the socialist transformation of
society. And we are very confident on the
basis of the mess the British capitalism is in, the struggles
that are coming against the consequences of that.
There's going to be big opportunities even if we weren't
there. There will be more and more
working class people drawing theconclusions that we've drawn,
(38:44):
but with us there we can speed that process up and all.
Great. Thanks, Anna.
So no problem for joining me. I'll see you next time.
See you next time. So hopefully what you've heard
today is got you fired up and ready to get campaigning to
build an alternative to the mainstream capitalist parties.
And if you're not yet a member of the Socialist Party and agree
(39:04):
with what you heard today, then get in touch on our website
www.socialistparty.org.uk to find out what being a member
will mean for you. We've got much more political
analysis on our website and you can also subscribe to our weekly
paper The Socialist and our monthly magazine Socialism
Today. Again, the Socialist Party has
(39:25):
no big, big business backers, sowe rely on all our campaign
funding from individual donations.
And if you agree that we need analternative to capitalism, make
a donation today. So that's it from today's
podcast and hit subscribe to never miss an episodes.
I'll see you next time.
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