July 16, 2025 • 17 mins
Today’s podcast is a discussion with Socialist Party General Secretary Hannah Sell, around the announcement on the 3rd July 2025 that Zarah Sultana MP was resigning from the Labour Party to, together with Jeremy Corbyn, “co-lead the founding of a new party, with other campaigners and activists across the country.”
The Socialist Party has been pushing for the trade unions to take a leading role in any new party, and supports the change.org petition launched by 25 current and former senior trade unionists titled: “Time for trade unions to take the lead in forming a new working class party”. Sign the petition here: https://www.change.org/p/time-for-trade-unions-to-take-the-lead-in-forming-a-new-working-class-party
There will be a national Zoom meeting to discuss the next steps for this campaign on the 21st July at 6:30pm. Register here: https://us02web.zoom.us/meeting/register/Ma5abmf1SCCE1_aGMZL2JA#/registration
Further reading:
Zarah Sultana MP leaves Labour and announces ‘co-founding a new party’
https://www.socialistparty.org.uk/articles/140532/04-07-2025/zarah-sultana-mp-leaves-labour-and-announces-co-founding-a-new-party/
More Info - Click here for all your Socialist Party links: https://linkin.bio/socialistparty/
We need your help campaigning! The establishment political parties have the backing of the capitalist elites. We need to build a mass movement of working class fighters to take them on. Find out more details about your local campaigns and how you can help by filling in this form: http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/join
The Socialist Party has no big-business backers, so we rely on your donations to fund all our campaigns. Donate at https://www.socialistparty.org.uk/donations/donatejune2025/
Subscribe to our weekly paper, ‘The Socialist’, and our monthly magazine ‘Socialism Today': https://www.socialistparty.org.uk/subscribe-2/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hello and welcome to Socialism, the podcast of the Socialist
Party It subscribe today to never miss an episode.
I'm Oscar Perry, a Socialist Party member and today's podcast
is a discussion with Hannah SEL around the announcement on the
3rd of July 2025 that Zara Sultana MP was resigning from
the Labour Party and together with Jeremy Corbyn would Co lead
(00:25):
the founding of a new party. With other campaigners and
activists across the country, the Socialist has been pushing
for the trade union to take a leading role in any new party
and supports the change. The old position launched by 25
current and former senior trade unionists titled Time for the
Trade Unionist to take the lead in forming a new working class
(00:48):
party. There will be a national Zoom
meeting to discuss the next steps for this campaign on the
21st of July at 6:30 PM and the link to sign the petition and
register for the Zoom meeting isdown below Can.
I have a place to join the meeting today.
No problem. Good.
To see you. So everyone's been talking about
it, but what do you think about Zara Sultana's announcement
(01:09):
around a new party? I mean it's great.
Of course it's great. I think last time I looked
72,000 people had signed up. It's probably gone up since then
to get more information when there is more information and
millions of people have looked at her post on it and that shows
the enthusiasm that's there for the idea of a new party and we
(01:34):
really, really need one. You look at the situation in the
country. Labour were elected on a
supposed landslide a year ago. In reality they got I think
20.1% of the electorate voting for them.
That is the lowest proportion ofthe electorate of any incoming
government since 1918 when universal male suffrage was
(01:56):
first introduced. So this is a government with a
very shallow basis of support insociety.
The landslide was only because of the collapse of the Tories.
So it's a weak government, but it's a government trying to do
the bidding of the capitalist class.
So it's brutally attacking working class people, attacking
benefits and so on. But we've seen it can be
(02:17):
defeated, so that is giving people confidence that we can
fight back against this government.
But we need a political alternative as well so that the
question of a new party is very sharply posed.
Zara had been suspended from Labour for voting for the
lifting of the two child benefitcap, a cap that has put 800,000
(02:40):
children into poverty. That was her crime and it's very
good. She's drawn the conclusion that
she's not putting up with that anymore, that she's leaving the
Labour Party and supports the idea of founding a new party.
I think the most recent opinion poll I've seen said that 18% of
people will consider voting for a Jeremy Corbyn LED party. 36%
(03:04):
of 18 to 24 year olds will vote for a Jeremy Corbyn LED party.
Those people couldn't even vote when Corbyn was leader of the
Labour Party. And it shows how the anti
austerity manifestos that he putforward in 2017 and 2019 and
even in 2019 Labour got more votes under Corbyn than they got
in the general election last year.
(03:26):
That still reverberates in society.
That and those anti austerity manifestos, they're still
popular, popular with the new generation.
So it's also very good that Jeremy Corbyn has said that he
is also in discussions for the founding of a new party.
Having said all those things about how good it is, Of course
that doesn't mean it's guaranteed that it's going to be
(03:48):
successful. There have been previous
attempts to launch new parties in Britain going back to the
Socialist Labour Party, which was with Arthur Scarborough, the
leader of the miners strike, andthen later George Galloway's
first initiative around Respect,which had quite a bit of
electoral success immediately about anger at the Iraq war and
(04:10):
a New Labour part marked one at that point in time.
But those parties were in the end stillborn in large part
because of their very top down approach.
Now the the potential's bigger. Today it's absolutely clear the
potential's bigger, but that doesn't mean success is
guaranteed. And a party being open and
(04:30):
democratic and some other thingsI'll go on to explain, that's
really important. Otherwise, it can initially
attract people who are angry, but it's not going to be able to
hold them and build a successfulparty if it doesn't have that
kind of open, democratic approach.
And what role do we think the trade union should be playing in
this new formation? That's really, really important
(04:52):
because in our view we don't just need a left party, we need
a Workers Party. The working class in Britain
have no party, the bosses have how many for and we need a party
of the working class. The biggest workers
organisations in Britain are thetrade unions, over 6 million
(05:13):
people in the TUC affiliated trade unions.
So that's potentially a very powerful force and we want a new
party to be based on the trade unions.
Now we know a lot of the unions are still affiliated to the
Labour Party and a lot of the trade union leaders will try to
argue, are trying to argue. You've just got to give Labour a
(05:36):
chance or we'll argue. We've got to keep up with Labour
otherwise we'll get reform like Neil Kinnock has been arguing.
But of course, the trade unions just keep backing Labour.
Their members will go and vote for reform.
That's guaranteed to allow the growth of reform.
Building a new party based on the working class is the only
way to cut across reform on the right populists.
(05:59):
But those debates are going on in the trade unions at the
moment. But the union leaders are not
winning those debates even now. So the UCU, that's the
university Workers Union. Earlier this year there was, and
this is before any announcementsabout potential new parties.
There was a motion initiated by Socialist Party members that was
(06:21):
calling for discussions on UCU members themselves standing in
elections, but was also calling for Jeremy Corbyn and the
Independent MPs to be invited tothe executive to discuss how
they could support a campaign for in the interests of
university workers and college workers to fight the funding
crisis in education and so on. So those discussions are already
(06:45):
taking place right now as we're recording this podcast, they're
going on at Unite conference because Unite is a Labour
affiliated trade union, but it'sin conflict with Labour.
The Birmingham refuge workers, the bin workers are right on the
front line with a Labour counciltrying to cut their pay by 8
(07:05):
grand a year now, threatening tofire and rehire them, the very
thing that Labour claimed it wasgoing to ban.
And it's not just the council, it's absolutely clear that
behind the council is the Labourgovernment who in my view can
see that Unite has been the mostmilitant union in local
government, know that they're carrying out brutal austerity in
local government because the funding cuts are continuing and
(07:27):
they want to give Unite a bloodynose.
Well, the Unite members can see that too.
So they've got an emergency motion up saying we've got to re
discuss our relationship with Labour because of what Labour is
doing to our members. So those debates are taking
place anyway, even before a new party is launched.
(07:48):
In our view, that group of independent MPs can really help
convince trade unionists that they stand in the interest of
the working class. For example, Labour did say that
they would repeal most of the 2016 Trade Union Act.
It's not enough. We want all the anti union laws
repealed, but they haven't even done that.
(08:09):
And that means that the turn outthresholds are still on the
statute books, which is a big obstacle to taking strike action
against New Labour austerity. That group of independent MPs
prioritising moving a private members bills or a private
members bill on that issue and going to the trade unions and
saying we're fighting for you onthis.
(08:29):
Approach everyone of your sponsored MPs and ask them, ask
if they're prepared to back us on this question of just doing
what Labour said it was going todo and repealing that act.
That could have a big effect on mobilizing around the issue and
showing that this is going to bea party that fights for the
working class. But I suppose the other thing
then is just on the structure ofa new party once it's launched.
(08:52):
Because I'm sure there will be some union leaders, especially
in the unaffiliated unions, seeing the mood of their members
who will very quickly say I support this new party and of
course welcome that, you know, but that in itself isn't enough.
Actually, that was true about respect to the SLP.
(09:16):
The question is the rights of union members inside the new
party. Going back to respect, Bob Crow,
who was then the general secretary of the Transport
Workers Union, the RMT, He neversupported his union becoming
part of Respect and it didn't. And instead he worked with us to
set up the Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition, which is a
(09:39):
coalition that stands in elections.
And his central reason for that is because the RM TS got 80,000
members. But it would have had no say,
no, no right to affiliate and then have a say in the
structures of the new party because it was organised
formally purely on the basis of 1 member, one vote.
(09:59):
And there can be the superficialidea that one member, one vote
is the most democratic way to organise a party.
But actually look back at the history of Labour becoming New
Labour, John Prescott said. More important than getting rid
of clause 4, the socialist clause in Labour's constitution,
(10:20):
was the introduction of 1 member, one vote because it
destroyed union power within theLabour Party.
So it was actually used as a tool by the right wing and we
think any new structure should be on a federal type basis and
in particular give rights to thetrade unions but also to the
(10:41):
different socialist organisations, including
ourselves, the different groups of independent councillors that
have already been elected aroundthe country, the community
campaigners and so on. If you go back to the early
history of the Labour Party, some of its best traditions
actually, until 1918, you couldn't have individual
membership. I'm not so sure to do that, the
(11:01):
new party, but it was extremely federal.
The different trade unions and socialist groups just got their
own MPs elected to parliament and agreed to work together in
parliament. So, so that approach has been
used successfully before on a much smaller scale.
It's what the Trade Unionist andSocialist Coalition has done and
why it's been able to keep quitedisparate left organisations and
(11:22):
trade unionists working together, standing in elections
for 15 years because of that kind of federal approach which
gives all the different organisations rights.
So it has to be worked out and discussed in the trade unions.
What that means in terms of the structure of a new party and
discussions between the trade union movement, including a a
(11:42):
branch level, a Rep level and the people who want to set up a
new party, that is extremely important.
But you can imagine a founding conference having delegates, so
not being just every individual who turns up in a big rally, but
delegates, representative delegates of different trade
union organisations, socialist organisations, community
(12:06):
campaigns, independent councillors and so on.
And that will be a really solid way to begin a new party.
So there are some who say a party needs to be more
centralised in order to have electoral success.
Do we agree with that? I mean that is a kind of myth in
the discussions, the kind of prediscussions about a new party
that's come up quite a lot. Oh, but we've all got to just be
(12:26):
completely centralised and has it's actually the same branding
and then somehow we'll have magically have electoral
success. Frankly, it's just not true.
I've given the example of the early history of the Labour
Party. It's also worth looking at some
of the left formations that developed after the Great
(12:47):
Recession. In Britain we had Corbynism,
which was within the Labour Party.
But in other countries there were New left parties in broadly
the same era. And probably the one that has
the starkest example is Syriza in Greece.
Good and bad. But the thing about Syriza is
that it won 26% of the vote in 2012.
(13:09):
It had gone from being a tiny party getting very low votes to
getting that big chunk of the vote because of the anger
against austerity introduced by the equivalent of the Labour
Party in Greece at that time. But Sirius stands for the
Coalition of the radical left. It was what people who don't
like a federal approach would call a rag bag of different left
groups at that point in time. So it was, it was federal in its
(13:34):
approach. It then became more centralized
before it won the next general election in 2015.
But that was not because it needed to do that in order to
win the general election. Actually it was the opposite.
It was that it had become clear,including to the capitalist
class, that Syriza was going to win the next general election.
(13:57):
And therefore there was a move to centralise it, to move to a
system where its leader was onlyelected every three years, where
all federal elements were got rid of in order to try.
And loads of members of the Labour, the equivalent of the
Labour Party, Pastop right wing,joined it in order to try and
make sure it was safe for capitalist class if it were in a
(14:19):
general election. So the centralisation wasn't
about winning, it was about getting rid of the positive or
elements or trying to get rid ofthe positive elements of that
party. And of course, tragically, it
did betray the working class in office.
It did bow the knee and in the end implement brutal austerity
(14:40):
despite the determination of theGreek working class to keep
fighting against the institutions of Greek
capitalism, but also of the eurozone because it was part of
the euro that wasn't is part of the eurozone.
So in our view, there are lots of lessons to be learned, but
it's not that federalism doesn'tlead to electoral success on
the. Contrary So what programme do
(15:03):
you think the new party should have?
That is a really vital point around which there is bound to
be a lot of discussion in any new party because that's the
other lesson of Greece, isn't it?
What programme was necessary? They could have implemented
their anti austerity programme but that meant defying the
(15:23):
capitalist class and defying them required nationalizing the
main corporations of bank and banks, introducing capital
controls, state monopoly of foreign trade.
It required thoroughgoing socialist measures.
And in our view, had Jeremy Corbyn won a general election as
leader of the Labour Party, the same things would have been
(15:45):
posed. Remember how the markets, the
bond markets acted against Liz Truss?
Well, that was a reckless capitalist program.
A government trying to introducea socialist program would have
faced far greater sabotage from the stock bond markets.
And the only way to answer that is to take control is to
nationalize the major corporations and banks under
(16:07):
democratic working class control.
So those issues are going to be debated in a new party.
And in our view, that's also whyit's essential that different
socialist organisations, including ourselves in the
Socialist Party, can be in thereputting those arguments.
Not because everybody's going toagree with us in the first
stage, but because whether thosewho would like everybody to just
(16:29):
agree about a more modest program, like it or not, we're
going to face those issues. This is serious.
We're not just talking about getting a new Workers Party,
we're talking about building a new Workers Party that can come
to power and actually act in theinterests of the working class.
And there's going to be big tactical discussions needed
(16:49):
about strategic discussions about how to achieve that, which
will take place whether there were already organised groupings
or not. But the issues can be posed much
more sharply if you've got a socialist organization like the
Socialist Party, who is clearly arguing that point of view from
the beginning. Great.
Thanks, Anna. No.
Problem at all. I'll see you next time, see.
You next time. If you're not yet a member of
(17:10):
the Socialist Party and agree with the points raised today,
then get in touch on our websitewww.socialistparty.org.uk to
find out what being a member will mean for you.
Our website is packed with more political analysis and you can
subscribe for our weekly paper, The Socialist, and our monthly
magazine, Socialism Today, getting it delivered to your
door or an E subscription to your e-mail.
(17:31):
The Socialist Party has no big business actors.
All of our work is funded by donations from individual
supporters. And if you agree that we need an
alternative to war, capitalism and endless cuts for the poor,
make a donation today.
Hello and welcome to Socialism, the podcast of the Socialist
Party It subscribe today to never miss an episode.
I'm Oscar Perry, a Socialist Party member and today's podcast
is a discussion with Hannah SEL around the announcement on the
3rd of July 2025 that Zara Sultana MP was resigning from
the Labour Party and together with Jeremy Corbyn would Co lead
(00:25):
the founding of a new party. With other campaigners and
activists across the country, the Socialist has been pushing
for the trade union to take a leading role in any new party
and supports the change. The old position launched by 25
current and former senior trade unionists titled Time for the
Trade Unionist to take the lead in forming a new working class
(00:48):
party. There will be a national Zoom
meeting to discuss the next steps for this campaign on the
21st of July at 6:30 PM and the link to sign the petition and
register for the Zoom meeting isdown below Can.
I have a place to join the meeting today.
No problem. Good.
To see you. So everyone's been talking about
it, but what do you think about Zara Sultana's announcement
(01:09):
around a new party? I mean it's great.
Of course it's great. I think last time I looked
72,000 people had signed up. It's probably gone up since then
to get more information when there is more information and
millions of people have looked at her post on it and that shows
the enthusiasm that's there for the idea of a new party and we
(01:34):
really, really need one. You look at the situation in the
country. Labour were elected on a
supposed landslide a year ago. In reality they got I think
20.1% of the electorate voting for them.
That is the lowest proportion ofthe electorate of any incoming
government since 1918 when universal male suffrage was
(01:56):
first introduced. So this is a government with a
very shallow basis of support insociety.
The landslide was only because of the collapse of the Tories.
So it's a weak government, but it's a government trying to do
the bidding of the capitalist class.
So it's brutally attacking working class people, attacking
benefits and so on. But we've seen it can be
(02:17):
defeated, so that is giving people confidence that we can
fight back against this government.
But we need a political alternative as well so that the
question of a new party is very sharply posed.
Zara had been suspended from Labour for voting for the
lifting of the two child benefitcap, a cap that has put 800,000
(02:40):
children into poverty. That was her crime and it's very
good. She's drawn the conclusion that
she's not putting up with that anymore, that she's leaving the
Labour Party and supports the idea of founding a new party.
I think the most recent opinion poll I've seen said that 18% of
people will consider voting for a Jeremy Corbyn LED party. 36%
(03:04):
of 18 to 24 year olds will vote for a Jeremy Corbyn LED party.
Those people couldn't even vote when Corbyn was leader of the
Labour Party. And it shows how the anti
austerity manifestos that he putforward in 2017 and 2019 and
even in 2019 Labour got more votes under Corbyn than they got
in the general election last year.
(03:26):
That still reverberates in society.
That and those anti austerity manifestos, they're still
popular, popular with the new generation.
So it's also very good that Jeremy Corbyn has said that he
is also in discussions for the founding of a new party.
Having said all those things about how good it is, Of course
that doesn't mean it's guaranteed that it's going to be
(03:48):
successful. There have been previous
attempts to launch new parties in Britain going back to the
Socialist Labour Party, which was with Arthur Scarborough, the
leader of the miners strike, andthen later George Galloway's
first initiative around Respect,which had quite a bit of
electoral success immediately about anger at the Iraq war and
(04:10):
a New Labour part marked one at that point in time.
But those parties were in the end stillborn in large part
because of their very top down approach.
Now the the potential's bigger. Today it's absolutely clear the
potential's bigger, but that doesn't mean success is
guaranteed. And a party being open and
(04:30):
democratic and some other thingsI'll go on to explain, that's
really important. Otherwise, it can initially
attract people who are angry, but it's not going to be able to
hold them and build a successfulparty if it doesn't have that
kind of open, democratic approach.
And what role do we think the trade union should be playing in
this new formation? That's really, really important
(04:52):
because in our view we don't just need a left party, we need
a Workers Party. The working class in Britain
have no party, the bosses have how many for and we need a party
of the working class. The biggest workers
organisations in Britain are thetrade unions, over 6 million
(05:13):
people in the TUC affiliated trade unions.
So that's potentially a very powerful force and we want a new
party to be based on the trade unions.
Now we know a lot of the unions are still affiliated to the
Labour Party and a lot of the trade union leaders will try to
argue, are trying to argue. You've just got to give Labour a
(05:36):
chance or we'll argue. We've got to keep up with Labour
otherwise we'll get reform like Neil Kinnock has been arguing.
But of course, the trade unions just keep backing Labour.
Their members will go and vote for reform.
That's guaranteed to allow the growth of reform.
Building a new party based on the working class is the only
way to cut across reform on the right populists.
(05:59):
But those debates are going on in the trade unions at the
moment. But the union leaders are not
winning those debates even now. So the UCU, that's the
university Workers Union. Earlier this year there was, and
this is before any announcementsabout potential new parties.
There was a motion initiated by Socialist Party members that was
(06:21):
calling for discussions on UCU members themselves standing in
elections, but was also calling for Jeremy Corbyn and the
Independent MPs to be invited tothe executive to discuss how
they could support a campaign for in the interests of
university workers and college workers to fight the funding
crisis in education and so on. So those discussions are already
(06:45):
taking place right now as we're recording this podcast, they're
going on at Unite conference because Unite is a Labour
affiliated trade union, but it'sin conflict with Labour.
The Birmingham refuge workers, the bin workers are right on the
front line with a Labour counciltrying to cut their pay by 8
(07:05):
grand a year now, threatening tofire and rehire them, the very
thing that Labour claimed it wasgoing to ban.
And it's not just the council, it's absolutely clear that
behind the council is the Labourgovernment who in my view can
see that Unite has been the mostmilitant union in local
government, know that they're carrying out brutal austerity in
local government because the funding cuts are continuing and
(07:27):
they want to give Unite a bloodynose.
Well, the Unite members can see that too.
So they've got an emergency motion up saying we've got to re
discuss our relationship with Labour because of what Labour is
doing to our members. So those debates are taking
place anyway, even before a new party is launched.
(07:48):
In our view, that group of independent MPs can really help
convince trade unionists that they stand in the interest of
the working class. For example, Labour did say that
they would repeal most of the 2016 Trade Union Act.
It's not enough. We want all the anti union laws
repealed, but they haven't even done that.
(08:09):
And that means that the turn outthresholds are still on the
statute books, which is a big obstacle to taking strike action
against New Labour austerity. That group of independent MPs
prioritising moving a private members bills or a private
members bill on that issue and going to the trade unions and
saying we're fighting for you onthis.
(08:29):
Approach everyone of your sponsored MPs and ask them, ask
if they're prepared to back us on this question of just doing
what Labour said it was going todo and repealing that act.
That could have a big effect on mobilizing around the issue and
showing that this is going to bea party that fights for the
working class. But I suppose the other thing
then is just on the structure ofa new party once it's launched.
(08:52):
Because I'm sure there will be some union leaders, especially
in the unaffiliated unions, seeing the mood of their members
who will very quickly say I support this new party and of
course welcome that, you know, but that in itself isn't enough.
Actually, that was true about respect to the SLP.
(09:16):
The question is the rights of union members inside the new
party. Going back to respect, Bob Crow,
who was then the general secretary of the Transport
Workers Union, the RMT, He neversupported his union becoming
part of Respect and it didn't. And instead he worked with us to
set up the Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition, which is a
(09:39):
coalition that stands in elections.
And his central reason for that is because the RM TS got 80,000
members. But it would have had no say,
no, no right to affiliate and then have a say in the
structures of the new party because it was organised
formally purely on the basis of 1 member, one vote.
(09:59):
And there can be the superficialidea that one member, one vote
is the most democratic way to organise a party.
But actually look back at the history of Labour becoming New
Labour, John Prescott said. More important than getting rid
of clause 4, the socialist clause in Labour's constitution,
(10:20):
was the introduction of 1 member, one vote because it
destroyed union power within theLabour Party.
So it was actually used as a tool by the right wing and we
think any new structure should be on a federal type basis and
in particular give rights to thetrade unions but also to the
(10:41):
different socialist organisations, including
ourselves, the different groups of independent councillors that
have already been elected aroundthe country, the community
campaigners and so on. If you go back to the early
history of the Labour Party, some of its best traditions
actually, until 1918, you couldn't have individual
membership. I'm not so sure to do that, the
(11:01):
new party, but it was extremely federal.
The different trade unions and socialist groups just got their
own MPs elected to parliament and agreed to work together in
parliament. So, so that approach has been
used successfully before on a much smaller scale.
It's what the Trade Unionist andSocialist Coalition has done and
why it's been able to keep quitedisparate left organisations and
(11:22):
trade unionists working together, standing in elections
for 15 years because of that kind of federal approach which
gives all the different organisations rights.
So it has to be worked out and discussed in the trade unions.
What that means in terms of the structure of a new party and
discussions between the trade union movement, including a a
(11:42):
branch level, a Rep level and the people who want to set up a
new party, that is extremely important.
But you can imagine a founding conference having delegates, so
not being just every individual who turns up in a big rally, but
delegates, representative delegates of different trade
union organisations, socialist organisations, community
(12:06):
campaigns, independent councillors and so on.
And that will be a really solid way to begin a new party.
So there are some who say a party needs to be more
centralised in order to have electoral success.
Do we agree with that? I mean that is a kind of myth in
the discussions, the kind of prediscussions about a new party
that's come up quite a lot. Oh, but we've all got to just be
(12:26):
completely centralised and has it's actually the same branding
and then somehow we'll have magically have electoral
success. Frankly, it's just not true.
I've given the example of the early history of the Labour
Party. It's also worth looking at some
of the left formations that developed after the Great
(12:47):
Recession. In Britain we had Corbynism,
which was within the Labour Party.
But in other countries there were New left parties in broadly
the same era. And probably the one that has
the starkest example is Syriza in Greece.
Good and bad. But the thing about Syriza is
that it won 26% of the vote in 2012.
(13:09):
It had gone from being a tiny party getting very low votes to
getting that big chunk of the vote because of the anger
against austerity introduced by the equivalent of the Labour
Party in Greece at that time. But Sirius stands for the
Coalition of the radical left. It was what people who don't
like a federal approach would call a rag bag of different left
groups at that point in time. So it was, it was federal in its
(13:34):
approach. It then became more centralized
before it won the next general election in 2015.
But that was not because it needed to do that in order to
win the general election. Actually it was the opposite.
It was that it had become clear,including to the capitalist
class, that Syriza was going to win the next general election.
(13:57):
And therefore there was a move to centralise it, to move to a
system where its leader was onlyelected every three years, where
all federal elements were got rid of in order to try.
And loads of members of the Labour, the equivalent of the
Labour Party, Pastop right wing,joined it in order to try and
make sure it was safe for capitalist class if it were in a
(14:19):
general election. So the centralisation wasn't
about winning, it was about getting rid of the positive or
elements or trying to get rid ofthe positive elements of that
party. And of course, tragically, it
did betray the working class in office.
It did bow the knee and in the end implement brutal austerity
(14:40):
despite the determination of theGreek working class to keep
fighting against the institutions of Greek
capitalism, but also of the eurozone because it was part of
the euro that wasn't is part of the eurozone.
So in our view, there are lots of lessons to be learned, but
it's not that federalism doesn'tlead to electoral success on
the. Contrary So what programme do
(15:03):
you think the new party should have?
That is a really vital point around which there is bound to
be a lot of discussion in any new party because that's the
other lesson of Greece, isn't it?
What programme was necessary? They could have implemented
their anti austerity programme but that meant defying the
(15:23):
capitalist class and defying them required nationalizing the
main corporations of bank and banks, introducing capital
controls, state monopoly of foreign trade.
It required thoroughgoing socialist measures.
And in our view, had Jeremy Corbyn won a general election as
leader of the Labour Party, the same things would have been
(15:45):
posed. Remember how the markets, the
bond markets acted against Liz Truss?
Well, that was a reckless capitalist program.
A government trying to introducea socialist program would have
faced far greater sabotage from the stock bond markets.
And the only way to answer that is to take control is to
nationalize the major corporations and banks under
(16:07):
democratic working class control.
So those issues are going to be debated in a new party.
And in our view, that's also whyit's essential that different
socialist organisations, including ourselves in the
Socialist Party, can be in thereputting those arguments.
Not because everybody's going toagree with us in the first
stage, but because whether thosewho would like everybody to just
(16:29):
agree about a more modest program, like it or not, we're
going to face those issues. This is serious.
We're not just talking about getting a new Workers Party,
we're talking about building a new Workers Party that can come
to power and actually act in theinterests of the working class.
And there's going to be big tactical discussions needed
(16:49):
about strategic discussions about how to achieve that, which
will take place whether there were already organised groupings
or not. But the issues can be posed much
more sharply if you've got a socialist organization like the
Socialist Party, who is clearly arguing that point of view from
the beginning. Great.
Thanks, Anna. No.
Problem at all. I'll see you next time, see.
You next time. If you're not yet a member of
(17:10):
the Socialist Party and agree with the points raised today,
then get in touch on our websitewww.socialistparty.org.uk to
find out what being a member will mean for you.
Our website is packed with more political analysis and you can
subscribe for our weekly paper, The Socialist, and our monthly
magazine, Socialism Today, getting it delivered to your
door or an E subscription to your e-mail.
(17:31):
The Socialist Party has no big business actors.
All of our work is funded by donations from individual
supporters. And if you agree that we need an
alternative to war, capitalism and endless cuts for the poor,
make a donation today.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Bobby Bones Show
Listen to 'The Bobby Bones Show' by downloading the daily full replay.