March 5, 2024 • 45 mins
Embark on a remarkable tech odyssey with Elise Carmichael, whose formative years tinkering with a Commodore 64 paved the way to her influential tenure as CTO at Lakeside. Throughout our conversation, Elise's melodious passion for music intertwines with her tech expertise, illustrating how harmonious blends of interests can propel one's career trajectory. With anecdotes that stretch from the magic of early programming to the tough decisions that shaped her path, our chat with Elise is a compelling narrative of embracing change with open arms and the profound growth that comes from facing new challenges head-on.
Navigating the tech industry's unpredictable waves, Elise candidly shares the lessons she learned when thrust into a management role at a youthful age and how she countered workplace toxicity with resilience and determination. Her tale is a vibrant tapestry, weaving threads of love-driven relocation, a brief dalliance with the medical field, and an eventual passionate return to the tech world, reigniting her fervor for innovation. This episode promises to be a rich mosaic of experiences, highlighting how even the most unexpected journey can lead to profound professional fulfillment.
As we round off our insightful discussion, Elise underscores the transformative power of mentorship and her brainchild, On Ramp. This training initiative not only refueled her confidence but also marked her rise as a mentor and educator in the AI and machine learning arenas. Elise's transition from product strategy to becoming the face and voice of a company post-merger encapsulates a compelling argument for the intrinsic value of lifelong learning and the boldness required to step into the unknown. Her story is a masterclass in career evolution, decision-making, and the unyielding pursuit of knowledge in the fast-paced tech landscape.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Elise Carmichael (00:00):
I have a hard time saying you know what I
don't know about this?
Let me go learn.
Let me go learn that.
I have a much easier timeputting myself into a situation
where I'm forced to learnsomething, and I feel like
that's how a lot of people dolearn.
And so you get stuck in thisthing where you're kind of
afraid to move because you don'tknow about it.
But if you just sort of closeyour eyes and leap over, you're
(00:24):
not going to do anything elsebut learn about that, because
that's what your time is nowdedicated to.
So that's how I do it.
And then, once you're in thatplace, it's easy enough to
YouTube, Google, read a book.
So there's tons of ways toactually figure it out once
you're there.
Tim Bourguignon (00:38):
Hello and welcome to Developers Journey,
the podcast bringing you themaking of stories of successful
software developers to help youon your upcoming journey.
I'm your host, tim Bognio.
On this episode, I receiveElise Carmichael.
Elise has over 20 years ofexperience working on high tech,
big data and machine learningbased products in various roles,
(01:01):
spanning from softwaredeveloper and software tester to
VP of product strategy and CTO,as in her current role at
Lakeside.
Elise, welcome to DevTourney.
Elise Carmichael (01:12):
Thanks for having me.
Tim Bourguignon (01:14):
Oh, it's my pleasure.
But before we come to yourstory, I want to thank the
terrific listeners who supportthe show.
Every month you are keeping theDevTourney lights up.
If you would like to join thisfine crew and help me spend more
time on finding phenomenalguests than editing audio tracks
, please go to our website,devjourneyinfo and click on the
(01:38):
support me on Patreon button.
Even the smallest contributionsare giant steps toward a
sustainable DevTourney journey.
Thank you, and now back totoday's guest, elise.
As you know, the show exists tohelp the listeners understand
what your story looked like andimagine how to shape their own
future.
So, as usual on the show, let'sgo back to your beginnings.
(02:00):
Where would you place the startof your DevTourney?
Elise Carmichael (02:04):
Oh, it was quite a long time ago.
I was actually a little kid soI was very fortunate.
My mother actually studiedcomputer science and math at the
University of Illinois, youknow the school where they had
the Iliac and some of the veryfirst computers.
And so, yeah, yeah, so she usedpunch cards and had an
(02:24):
opportunity to work on these youknow giant room computers.
And so I grew up with a veryhigh tech household.
We had all the Atari's, we hadCommodore's, so we had all the
iterations after the Commodore,but the Commodore was my first
computer.
So I absolutely love this thingfrom.
You know, I was in the singledigits when I had this and I
(02:48):
remember we would get thisCommodore 64 magazine.
It came every month in the mailand as part of the magazine it
had you know how to programgames, but it wasn't really
programming.
You would type in numbers andit did this magical thing you
got to the end of the line.
It would tell you if yournumbers were correct, which I
had at the time.
No idea how it could possiblyknow that, but it had to be some
sort of hash.
You know, looking, looking backin time, and you finished.
(03:11):
You know typing in pages andpages of teeny tiny numbers and
out came a game or out camesomething.
So I thought that was amazing.
But what really blew my mind wasI was sitting there with my I
have two older brothers.
I was sitting there with mybrothers, five years older than
me, and I figured out how towrite from the command prompt on
the Commodore a while loop, andin the while loop I wrote out
(03:33):
something to the effective, youknow a print statement.
My brother is a meanie head orsomething you know like a seven
year old would write.
And so it just starts printingout something mean about my
brother and I was sold and I waslike this is the greatest thing
I've ever done.
This is the biggestaccomplishment of my life.
I built that and I was totallyhooked on technology after that.
Tim Bourguignon (03:54):
And I can't understand why.
Yeah.
Elise Carmichael (03:57):
It was.
I just thought it was amazing.
And then I'm turning in, youknow, my reports in school with
a word processor.
Once I started writing reportsin middle school and they had
the you know the shiny coversand I printed on my dot matrix
printer and my teacher was very,very impressed without having
to do anything.
That I thought was particularlyspecial.
So it started very early for me.
Tim Bourguignon (04:18):
Indeed, Did you ?
Did you picture your lifecoming into this direction right
away?
Elise Carmichael (04:24):
So in high school my let's see, he was my
math teacher.
He had us write ourselves aletter to open up at the end of
college or right after collegeto talk to our future selves.
And at that time, let's see,one of the first toy story movie
had come out and I was totallysold on technology and I knew
(04:46):
that I wanted to do somethingwith computers.
So this was maybe a ninth grade, you know, in four years left
in high school and then I knew Iwanted to do something with
music.
So really I wanted to be amusician, but I knew that I
didn't want to be a poormusician or struggling musician.
So the computers was obviouslygoing to be my day job and I'll
(05:07):
do music for fun.
So yeah, I knew pretty earlythat this was going to be my
career in some capacity.
I didn't know what withcomputers, but I knew something
with computers.
So I've stuck to that pretty,pretty darn well.
Tim Bourguignon (05:19):
Wow, this is amazing.
Did you have this?
Elise Carmichael (05:22):
letter still, you know, I don't.
I might be at my parents house,but I really wish I did.
I feel like I'd frame it.
I specifically wanted to workfor Pixar, so I wanted to go
work and build all the softwarethey were using.
And then I found out, you know,once, once I studied I studied
computer science and college andmusic.
Once I found out what thesoftware folks at Pixar did,
(05:45):
which was create all thesoftware that the actual
designers of the movie and youknow, the graphics would do, I
was a little less interested init.
It seemed like a lot of mathand I thought maybe that wasn't
actually for me.
Tim Bourguignon (05:59):
But, but that's cool, cool dream anyway, to
start, to start following.
Elise Carmichael (06:04):
Yeah, yeah, I still remember it, so it was
certainly meaningful in my life.
Tim Bourguignon (06:08):
So so how did you decide which curriculum to
follow and how to start thatjourney toward computer science
on one hand, and music on theother one?
Elise Carmichael (06:18):
So it was actually ready to go to college
before I finished high school.
I had already applied.
I went to the University ofNorth Carolina at Chapel Hill,
which is in North Carolina, ofcourse, and I had a well known
computer program.
In fact the gentleman thatcoined the term a bite like a
computer bite was one of theprofessors at my school.
So we had this great program.
(06:38):
My freshman year was the firstfull class of a computer science
program.
It was math before that, butthey decided they had this whole
computer science building andso it was somewhat glamorous.
You know, it was kind of thefirst first seventh degree in
there, about 30 to 40 kids in myprogram.
So it wasn't that big.
But I knew that's why I wouldn'tdo.
(06:59):
I played the flute on the sideas a music performance major and
I still play, but it's not,it's not professional, it's just
for fun.
So I did that throughoutcollege and I took internships
and things like that because Ialways wanted more.
I loved my classes, I lovedoing programming assignments,
and so I always had Somethinggoing on on the side, even if it
(07:19):
was like an IT help deskinternship or if it was a
programming thing or somethingfor the college over the summer
I did.
I Probably can't even tell youhow many internships I did,
because it was always like athree-month thing here and there
.
I enjoyed that.
Tim Bourguignon (07:36):
Do you remember when you started I'm not sure
the right term entering theworkforce.
I'm sure that's the rightdestination, but, um, how you
pictured the, the work of an ITprofessional, to make it very
generic Before and afterstarting seeing this in the in
the in the industry.
Elise Carmichael (07:56):
Yeah, you know , I, I, I knew that you know I'd
be sitting at a desk all dayand writing code and I thought
that sounded great.
I like building something.
I sort of thought of it as thewhite collar way to build
something and that was what Ireally like building.
Um, but my first job that wasfull-time was not really what I
anticipated and I didn't goafter what everyone else went
(08:18):
after.
So a lot of my Um friends fromcollege went to Silicon Valley.
They went to glamorous jobs atas consultants and they got paid
quite a bit of money.
I, on the other hand, met a boy.
And I decided I was going tomove to Florida and so I looked
for whatever computer jobs Icould find in Gainesville,
(08:41):
florida, which is where I live.
So it's Um, a small collegetown in the middle of Florida.
It's not near anything.
I'm not near a beach, I'm notnear Disney, I'm two hours away
from anything you can imaginehere.
I'm nowhere near Miami.
Um, so I I went what's what'sin Gainesville?
So I looked and applied forbasically every job I could find
(09:02):
.
I looked at like the chamber ofcommerce website, like the
government website, to see what,even what, what companies could
even exist there.
Um, and I finally found a jobat a blood bank, um, you know,
like, kind of like the red cross, but A smaller version in the
southeastern us.
So I took a job in their, theirIT department.
(09:27):
It was pretty small, maybe 25people.
I was the only only woman there.
Um, and I was a softwaredeveloper, slash test automation
engineer, and it was not at allwhat I pig pictured.
It was kind of a cube farm.
Um, we wrote software for theblood intake process.
(09:49):
So someone comes in they say Iwant to donate blood and you
have to fill out forms, and itwould used to all be manual by
hand, and so we made a computerprogram that was, um, all kinds
of HIPAA compliant and you knowvery much in the healthcare
space, because someone's puttingin their name and their medical
history and and all that.
So we worked on this intakeform and it was Not the most
(10:13):
pleasant work environment for me, um, I probably have stories
for for days, um, but it was avery interesting job.
So after Three months of beingthere, I'm a 22 year old Kid
straight out of college.
After three months of beingthere, my boss promoted me to a
manager role.
I managed something like fivepeople.
(10:33):
Uh, there was someone in their40s, other people kind of in
their mid upper 20s, um, and itwas a super awkward position for
me because I didn't knowanything about managing people,
um, and the only reason or atleast what I assume is the
reason that I was offered thisrole is because I could
(10:54):
translate what we were doingFrom a tech perspective Into
what my boss cared about, whichI now know, of course, is
managing up, and there's a wholeart to managing up, um, but
apparently I did that naturally,um, because why else would he
give a 22 year old with no otherprior full-time experience a
(11:15):
manager role Three months afterstarting in a new position in a
new industry.
Tim Bourguignon (11:23):
Did you, um, in hindsight really understand
that, or did you understand itback then?
Uh, when did that happen?
Understand which which parthe's rational for promoting you.
Elise Carmichael (11:36):
Um, I just thought I was amazing.
You know, I was really arrogant, right, like I thought I was
doing a very good job.
I didn't understand that I wasmanaging up, necessarily, but I
did know that I was able tocommunicate things to him that
maybe the team Wasn'tcommunicating well.
He thought I was responsible, Iwas always on time and, um, it
was a very, um, very lockdownplace when you know, some of the
(12:02):
the folks to my team would goto espancom and they were
monitored and so they wouldblock websites if you went to
certain websites.
So it was a very toxic place.
So you know, it wasn't.
It wasn't the greatestexperience for me.
I didn't stay there for superlong.
However, having that experiencebecoming a manager, of course
I'm gonna take very seriouslyand try to understand all the
(12:24):
things that I don't knowanything about I am actually.
My next job in technology wasfollowing one of the people that
I managed to another company,so is how I found out about my
next tech job.
Tim Bourguignon (12:41):
Okay, take us there maybe.
Elise Carmichael (12:43):
Yeah, so fun fact, I didn't go straight there
.
I decided that because it wassuch a toxic place I'm skipping
out on technology jobs.
I went to pre med.
I took pre med classes.
I was like gonna be a doctor,yeah.
So I was like forget this, isit for me?
I had other experiences ofbeing the only woman there where
(13:05):
people kind of treated me in anot super pleasant way when they
found out I had a boyfriend,and it was a little toxic for
multiple reasons.
Yeah, I wanted to go to medschool wow.
Tim Bourguignon (13:20):
So it was bad enough to really Discuss.
You enough to stop being inthis industry and go do
something else.
Elise Carmichael (13:29):
Yeah, yeah, I did take a short job after that.
That was remote, so I did havea remote job for maybe another
year after that, but it was inthe multi level marketing space
and that was a different kind oftoxic, because I thought the
product was terrible and Ididn't like how they approached
it.
So I learned about multi levelmarketing.
So at that point I was likesoftware is not for me, this is
(13:50):
not for me.
Everywhere can't be like this.
So I actually took a job at adoctor's office.
I learned how to draw blood andhelp with minor procedures and
was a medical assistant in thefamily practice office while I
was taking pre med courses atlocal school in florida.
Tim Bourguignon (14:09):
Holy moly, I have a.
First of all, I want toapologize for whatever happened
and all the men who, yeah, butwow, and how did you find your
way back into the end?
Elise Carmichael (14:24):
So, fun fact, I was working at the doctor's
office and I heard someone talkabout this company that's in
town here who one of the peoplethat had worked for me
previously told me he left forany city love.
This company is a companycalled info tech Not the big
info tech in india, but a local,florida info tech and this
(14:44):
person that I worked with saidwhat absolutely love working.
There was a wonderful place.
It was nothing like where wehad worked before, and I heard
someone come to the doctor'soffice saying that they work
there and I overheard thisconversation.
So me being the super shyperson that I am, I walked up to
them and was like who are you?
What do you do there?
You know, tell me more aboutyourself.
(15:05):
I do.
You know this person?
I know this person.
They said it's great, turns outshe was the head of hr there
and said that there were acouple open positions and that I
should come back and come backinto tech and apply form.
So I said what the heck?
I had an interview, phoneinterview, maybe.
A couple of days later they saidcome on in for an in person
(15:27):
interview.
In fact, there's two differentjobs open.
Why don't you interview forboth of them and at this point
I've been out of writing codefor I don't know you're gonna
have because I was pursuing thisother side thing, because I
thought technology was just sotoxic and terrible everywhere.
So I show up for the interview.
It went really well.
(15:47):
I got offered both jobs.
They said, pick whichever oneyou want.
It was for, you know, hundredand forty percent pay raise from
what I was making previouslyand I said, okay, well, this
sounds great.
I maybe, I'll, maybe I'll hopback in here and, to be fair,
after working at doctors officedealing with health insurance
(16:07):
companies and the generalpopulation, I thought maybe I
gotta give technology anotherchance.
I did pretty well.
So I took a job at this company, info tech, and stay there for
about six years and worked indifferent roles, but I started
out writing code.
I really love the team I workedwith.
Software we are working on isreally interesting, even though
(16:30):
it was in the constructionmanagement space, which doesn't
scream interesting.
But I learned a lot about thatindustry and so when you learn
about industry it's always kindof interesting.
So much you don't know I cantell you now.
You know how much it cost tobuild a road and all the
components I go into building aroad really interesting.
Tim Bourguignon (16:50):
That I understand as well.
I joined a company doing mainelevator maintenance two years
ago.
I never imagine I would be inthe living I have so many
questions.
Elise Carmichael (17:01):
How do they fix the police so they hold
something up while the policesystems?
About the belt systems.
I actually love how elevatorswork.
Tim Bourguignon (17:09):
It's super interesting, right we can take
that up after the call.
That's fair.
So back to your story.
Did that manage to cure that?
That company info tech managedto cure a little bit the toxic
picture you had in your mind.
Elise Carmichael (17:25):
Hundred percent.
I did discover other toxicthings about different kinds of
customers you can have, maybethe construction space, but it
was a wonderful place to work.
I love my co-workers, projectswere interesting, I was
constantly learning new stuffand I remembered.
This is what I love abouttechnology, and so I have not
(17:47):
jumped career paths since I wasquite a while ago, but that was.
That was a really big deal tome.
I'm still friends with withmany of the people that I work
with.
Tim Bourguignon (17:57):
Hooray.
Finally, you mentioned inpassing multiple roles in the
sexy six years, ten years thatyou had.
What kind of roles do you takeon?
Elise Carmichael (18:08):
Yes, I started off I think they called me a
systems analyst or seniorsystems analyst is basically a
senior developer role, so I didthat.
But what I really learned thatcompany was two things.
I visited my first customer onsite and I really enjoyed
traveling and visiting customerand talking to them and it's
(18:29):
always different seeing yoursoftware in the real world with
a real user than sitting at yourdesk and I thought that that
just gives you kind of an extrafeeling of accomplishment.
And I built this, I worked onthis, I know how it works, I can
answer any question thatthey're going to throw at me,
and so that that was great.
And then I also learned that Iliked having an opinion on what
(18:53):
we built, not just being handedwhat we were built, and that
those two things have reallyshaped a lot of the different
paths that I've gone on.
Although I'm the the CTO at mycurrent company, I'm responsible
for the engineering anddelivery of the product, but
also I run the productorganization, so that groups
(19:15):
kind of deciding what you'rebuilding, and I'm also running
security, I'm also running cloudand there's a reason that I
feel comfortable in all of thoseareas and it's really due to
kind of a varied career that Ihave leading up to that.
Tim Bourguignon (19:28):
Okay, I'm jumping quite far, but, but
running engineering productorganization security in cloud,
that's quite a stretch for you,even if you can, if you can do
it regardless, it's, it's reallya lot.
Elise Carmichael (19:43):
It is.
It is, and you can only do itif you have fantastic
lieutenants in every area.
So I would like to be not thesmartest one in the room.
I want all the people that workfor me to be much smarter than
I am and to know more about thatthing.
I only know enough to drawboxes, arrows, architecture
diagrams high level of these arewhere the pieces connect.
(20:03):
I can identify the rightproblems and understand what
they're talking to me about,versus necessarily saying this
is how we should build our, youknow, cloud architecture.
I don't know the best practicesand everything everywhere, by
any means.
Tim Bourguignon (20:16):
I hear you understanding enough to smell
what's right and smell if itdoesn't right, and be able to
ask the right question at theright time, but having them the
experts do the right thing.
Elise Carmichael (20:28):
Exactly.
Tim Bourguignon (20:29):
I hear you Exactly.
Okay so back to thisorganization.
You started as a seniordeveloper and then likes having
a broad area or broad spectrumof action.
I heard having an opinion onthing.
That means going towarddefining where the product is
going.
Elise Carmichael (20:49):
Yeah, so we had that was the first company
as that we adopted this newshiny concept of agile and it
was really scrum and a kind ofscrum, but it was.
It was really close to whatwhat you would consider kind of
the mainstream scrum.
Now we had stand ups.
I had before you software tomanage tickets.
We had note cards that we wroteour quasi user stories on.
(21:14):
We drew lines on a giantwhiteboard that had our names
for who who had what ticket andthen you would move the tickets
long and I always wanted to ripup the ticket when we were done
because it was a feeling ofaccomplishment, but my product
owner wanted to keep them.
I remember having a like a endof year review with my boss, who
(21:38):
at the time was that productowner, and he was like you know,
where do you see yourself in acouple years, five years,
something like that and I toldhim I would like his job, which
I thought would go over great,and I thought he would be
flattered.
I don't think he was that flat,I comment, but I just thought
you know, I really like that,the concept of product, and
(21:58):
although I didn't go straightthere, after this I did have an
opportunity to lead one of theproducts at that company.
I still had a product owner,but I had a lot more influence
over what we built and how webuilt it.
So I kind of started runningthe whole product and being
responsible for delivery of thatproduct.
So that was kind of my finalrole at that company.
Tim Bourguignon (22:21):
Awesome, awesome.
That's a very interesting placeto be when you can have a foot
in on those two worlds.
Define the what and define thehow at the same time.
Try to be not too schizophrenicof mixing up the two and really
letting the how away for a bit,working on the what, but going
back and forth.
This is really a great place tobe.
I understand you fully.
(22:41):
So what decided you to leavethis company?
If you were in such a rightplace?
Elise Carmichael (22:48):
Oh, money, money, I gotta I.
So I've been very fortunate mycareer where, other than my
first job when I first moved toFlorida, I never really applied
for a job.
Everything has sort of happenedand I have attacked it like
that person at the doctor'soffice.
I didn't send a resume and Ijust talked to her and was like,
(23:11):
can I, can I go apply for that?
And so the next company Iworked for, they found me on
LinkedIn.
I said, sure, I'll interview.
It was in.
I know about trucking, so it wasin the trucking industry, so I
know about logistics andtrucking and it was really
purely for money.
They paid me quite a bit moremoney and I didn't think my
other company would match and Ithought I'd been there six years
.
Let's break out of my comfortzone, do something brand new
(23:34):
that I don't know anything about, because that's been my other
MO throughout my careers to takeon something that is harder
than what I'm doing or moreunknown.
So I worked at that truckingcompany for a while and then,
kind of the next big thing thathappened in my career is I get a
phone call from a gentlemannamed Daniel Cohen and he was
(23:57):
running engineering at aprofessional services company
called Mope Equity and theyspecialized in mobile app
development, which I had noexperience in, and responsive
web apps, which I had noexperience in, and Alexa skills
was their other big thing.
So he said I want you to comework for Mope Equity.
We're building an office inGainesville.
(24:18):
And I said you don't have anoffice area.
I don't know, I have a smallchild.
That seems kind of risky.
Maybe I'll think about it.
So I didn't take it right away.
But he kept pestering me.
He and someone in their HR teamkept pestering me in a good way
and finally I said OK, ok,let's, let's talk again.
(24:39):
They had started opening theoffice and he asked me to run a
program at that company calledon ramp.
So it was something that Danielhad just kind of come up with
and it was a training programfor new software developers and
testers who were straight out ofcollege or had done a boot camp
and could pass a very difficultinterview, and the program
(25:02):
would basically teach you how tobuild software on the team for
a large organization.
So we would put together thesesmall teams and work for a CVS
or work for the weather channelor name brand companies that
people have heard of.
So I said, ok, I've never doneany kind of training before.
I don't think I've ever doneany public speaking before.
(25:24):
That sounds terrifying.
I don't have any idea what Idon't know about all of this.
Sign me up.
That sounds great.
So I started at this companyrunning this training program
that he had started and I alsodid.
(25:47):
I would hire people to come inand teach how to program in
Objective C and then Swift laterfor iOS, because that was not a
skill set that I was an expertin.
But we would actually go hirepeople who were absolute experts
in it and pay them a crazyamount of money to come in for
three weeks to leave whateverthey were doing for three weeks,
to basically live inGainesville and teach this.
(26:10):
We did the same for Android.
I taught the software test onebecause I knew a lot about
software testing and testautomation, so I taught that one
.
I ran a bunch of these programs.
I ran in India one time, so Iwas in India for like a month,
and so it was completelydifferent than what I've been
doing, and while I was there Ialso changed roles multiple
(26:31):
times.
I started taking over projectsif they were on fire, because I
really liked working with thecustomers I found out.
I really liked working withangry customers.
For some awful reason, I justwanted to make them our biggest
fans.
You know, hey, you're reallyangry about how this project's
going.
Let me take it over.
I have your back, I'm going tohelp you.
And I just over communicatedwith them.
(26:53):
I would tell them no, we're notgoing to do that, that's not
what your statement of work says.
And then I ultimately took overQA.
I took over engineering.
I eventually took Daniel's jobwhen he left the organization,
so that was a very eye openingcompany.
I stayed there for quite awhile and had lots of
experiences in differentindustries.
(27:14):
From working on healthcaresoftware, which has its own kind
of compliance, I worked on thefirst FDA approved mobile app,
which was kind of interesting,so it actually delivered
medicine via an app.
I don't think it was, in thepublic, super well received
because it was scary, sort oflike a self driving car was.
(27:34):
You know, I don't trust thisthing, but it was a very, very
interesting experience gettingto work with all these different
types of companies anddifferent industries.
Tim Bourguignon (27:47):
You mentioned twice.
Hey, it's hard to sign me in.
Is this the way you motivateyourself?
Elise Carmichael (27:53):
or you push yourself, or I have no idea why
I do this, but this has beenabsolutely my thing.
If it's something I'muncomfortable with, a little bit
uncomfortable with, it soundshard.
I'm not sure what I'm doing.
I am so committed that I willfigure it out and find a way to
do it, because you have to.
Someone's going to figure itout why not me?
(28:15):
So that role was very much.
Daniel was a great mentor to meand he was very motivating.
He knew that someone with mybackground could figure that out
and I think he really helpedpush me in that direction.
That was such a big deal to meand throughout my career there
(28:39):
he always pushed me into thingsand I think I really appreciated
that and I've taken that withme everywhere I've been since in
every role and what I encouragemy team members to do.
Tim Bourguignon (28:50):
When you say he pushed you, what do you mean
exactly?
He encouraged you, he helpedyou split things in smaller
parts so that you see, hey, it'sdoable, and you can go there.
Elise Carmichael (29:05):
He just pushed me.
He just pushed me.
This is what you need to knowand you'll be fine.
So, for example, when I wasdoing the training, I watched
him do it or I watched otherpeople do it before I was sort
of left on my own one time.
So I saw one entire we calledthem classes of students I saw
(29:28):
them go through this wholeprogram one time and then I was
basically on my own.
After there was an area that Iknew well, but not extremely
well.
So one area was Git.
It was still relatively new Isuppose at the time.
Git is relatively new still,but it was something I was
teaching everyone and I reallyneeded to understand it inside
(29:52):
and out, like how does it work,so I could answer all these
questions that all thesetechnical folks are going to ask
me about it, and so that wasthe kind of thing.
So I just practiced a lot on myown because I knew I could
learn it.
But it wasn't something I knew.
But I wasn't going to say nojust because I don't know that
one technology.
So same thing with anytechnology I've needed to learn
(30:14):
in my career I'll figure it out,and I always do or did.
Tim Bourguignon (30:20):
Okay, okay, now you've been more on the other
side of this bench, probablyfinding people to push and or
finding what people need andhelping them get there.
Do you have some kind ofheuristic of who you can push
and for whom it would beconstructive to push?
Elise Carmichael (30:40):
Absolutely so you can always tell when you
have team members that do alittle bit extra.
Hey, I see a problem, I justwent ahead and did this thing.
It could be a small, trivialthing Like hey, I noticed we
didn't have this thingdocumented, so I started this
documentation and, even better,I asked a couple other people to
(31:02):
help fill it in.
Those are the people you canpush because you know that they
are problem solvers.
They're not just going to say,oh, there's no documentation and
then like, move on and complainabout it.
The people that are problemsolvers, that want to better
everything around them, or theysee a gap in a process and they
say, what if we do it this way?
And they bring it up and it'snever, you know, it's someone
(31:25):
else's problem.
It's like you know who isresponsible for that?
Oh, there's no one responsiblefor that.
Why don't I do that?
Those are the people that youjust see their careers take off,
and a lot of the people whowent through this on-ramp
program at Mobiquity went theextra mile to find a company
that did this training programwhere you had homework, and it
(31:49):
was a very challenging program.
It lasted seven weeks or youwould find people that changed
careers, went through this bootcamp and we picked certain boot
camps that were like longer bootcamps, that were immersive boot
camps, so they really, like youcould tell they wanted to do
this.
One person, for example, camewho's a general contractor, so
he was in construction and it'slike I'm going to learn how to
(32:10):
do Android development.
Yeah, so he comes and does thisprogram and it is so amazing to
see how successful this groupof people who went through this
training program are today.
It's been, you know, one ofthose kind of life changing
things.
Every time I think about it.
Tim Bourguignon (32:26):
It must feel really fantastic to look back
and see those faces and seewhere they became, absolutely,
and knowing that you had aforming role in there.
Elise Carmichael (32:36):
I'd like to think so.
Tim Bourguignon (32:39):
I'm sure this is the case.
I have your profile, your linkprofile, open right there and
your subsequent roles go allover the place.
You have VP, quality VP,product strategy VP, enterprise
evangelist, vp, vice presidentof product.
Was there a definitive move ofgoing in all those directions?
Elise Carmichael (33:00):
100%.
So while I was at Mobiquity Ibought a product called Q-Test
and Q-Test is a test managementand enterprise quality test
management solution.
So at Mobiquity we had all ofour testing teams for all the
projects that they were doingfor other companies work within
this test management tool sothey could have a very unified
(33:22):
looking test suite.
So they all had theirregression tests and their smoke
tests.
So it wasn't tracked super wellbefore this and you wanted to
be able to send what testing youhad done to the customer so
they could feel confident inwhat they did.
So Q-Test was run by a companycalled QI Symphony and they were
based in Atlanta and I guess atthat time was one of their
(33:46):
bigger customers.
So they had asked me hey, canyou speak at our conference?
And I'd never done a conferencetalk before, so of course I'd
go.
Yes, that sounds great, I haveno idea what I'm doing.
And I went and spoke at theirconference about how to do
testing for mobile devices andhow we store that data in Q-Test
, and so the talk went reallywell and it was their first user
(34:10):
conference.
So it was a relatively youngcompany still and they had like
an after party after the eventand I went to the party at the
Spurri and ended up meeting thefounders of the company and the
CEO of the company.
The CEO's name was Dave Kyleand I told Dave probably after a
couple of drinks when I waseven more outgoing than maybe I
(34:33):
normally am that I really likedthe product, I thought I had
tons of potential and then I wasgoing to come work for him one
day.
So maybe three or four monthslater I sent him a message.
Professional services is a verychallenging industry.
It's just constantly moving,there's constant fires and
things going on because there'sso many projects.
(34:53):
So it's a very difficultindustry to be in.
And although I do really likeit, I missed product companies
and so I called him up one dayand said okay, what do you have,
what do you have going for me?
And so he flew me out.
Maybe a week later I interviewedfrom when I landed in Atlanta,
which was like 7 am, so I hadlike a breakfast meeting and,
(35:19):
fun fact, I had the founder ofthe company, who owns another
company as well, show up as myfirst interviewee and I wasn't
expecting it.
He wasn't on my schedule and hesaid Dave said I could talk to
you if it doesn't work out at QASymphony.
And so he interviewed me for arole at his company who I'd met
(35:39):
him.
The same night I met Dave, so Ithought that was amazing.
I felt like a million bucksafter that.
So I interviewed all the waythrough dinner.
So I had a breakfast, lunch anddinner there, Flew home that
night and they gave me a joboffer for this VP of QA role,
which was actually a subjectmatter expert role.
Plus I was running QA at thecompany, which you know the
(36:02):
small companies, really small,relatively small team and so
that's when I started gettinginto product.
So I spent most of my timethere with the product team and
saying this is what we shouldbuild or this is how we should
build it, and I started learningabout the product side of the
world and then took over theproduct team while I was there.
So that's how I really gotfully into kind of the product
(36:22):
side.
It was very strange not beingas close to the code, but I did
work with the engineering teamquite a bit while I was there.
Tim Bourguignon (36:30):
Okay, okay, because that would have been the
next question.
How'd you?
Elise Carmichael (36:34):
come back.
Yeah, it's been.
I've always stayed withengineering to some degree
because it's so important thatthe product team and engineering
team work completely in sync.
They're like it's great whenthey're run by two separate
people, when you have the thisis what we need to build this
tower building, and you don'tkind of make the decisions
separately.
I have seen, like like where Iam now, it does sometimes work
(36:58):
better when they're together.
It kind of depends on theproduct a little bit.
But then try, try sent us and QASymphony merged, so I went
through a merger and then I wasrunning product strategy and we
had people.
We had some duplicate roles andso I ended up being an
evangelist for the company,which was basically was doing
(37:18):
tons of public speakingengagements, which I still don't
like, and yet I still do them.
But I did a lot of travelingand speaking on behalf and I
also helped run the go to marketactivities for the Q test
products still.
So after the merger I was incharge of making sure the sales
team knew what they were doing.
The marketing team was talkingabout the right stuff.
So I really started gettingmuch more involved in the
(37:39):
business side of how to sellsoftware, and so I spent a lot
of time at QA Symphony and atTricentus learning about that.
I went to another softwaretesting company after that that
did test automation with machinelearning and AI.
So I got much more.
I was more educated in kind ofthe machine learning space.
(38:05):
I realized I didn't know asmuch as I would have liked to
know, so I spent a lot of timeresearching that.
And then Dave comes to a newcompany called Lakeside and I
joined back at Lakeside, whichis where I am now.
So that's kind of my whole fullcircle.
I loved working for Dave and soI thought it was a great
opportunity I knew he waslooking at coming to Lakeside.
(38:27):
I loved it was a big datacompany and I thought, oh,
there's tons of opportunity.
You have all this data.
Look at all this machinelearning we can do on this.
Having data is gold right now.
So I was just really excited towork on a product that's in the
IT space so a technical productis kind of my sweet spot and
then getting to run engineeringwhen I first started.
(38:47):
And then I took over a productabout six months ago.
Tim Bourguignon (38:50):
Mm, I think I'm on that, thank you.
So what did you find atLakeside in the realm of who?
I have no idea how to do that.
That's fantastic.
Let's do it.
Elise Carmichael (39:01):
You know there's a lot of things at
Lakeside I didn't know coming in.
So the interesting thing is onthe IT space and but like
traditional IT so kind of youremployees, machines and you know
the digital workplace and thatwas kind of a whole industry
that I was not as familiar with.
(39:21):
Like I know your basic helpdesk stuff.
I know there's applicationowners, but I don't really
understand or I didn't Now I doI didn't really understand how
that part of large organizationswas set up.
So I always worked kind of onthe engineering and new product
development side.
So that was my I don't knowwhat I'm doing and I better
learn that really quickly Sideone joining here.
(39:42):
But thankfully a lot of theother stuff has been at least
familiar enough to me, which iswhy I was able to take an
elevated role here.
I think it's okay, I've donethis, I've done all of this
stuff before.
I just have to learn a littlebit on the industry of the
product we're selling into.
Tim Bourguignon (39:58):
Having been that broad or that yeah, broad,
that's best word I have to add.
What's the next thing thatattracts you in this regard?
And hey, this is something Ihave no idea about.
I want to learn about it.
Elise Carmichael (40:15):
You know, I've spent a lot of the last maybe
10 years working on the businessside and understanding more on
the business side, so that was agap.
I really like understandingthings around M&A so acquiring
companies, emerging withcompanies so there's areas there
that I certainly know moreabout now than I did before, and
(40:38):
that's been an area of a lot ofinterest.
How do I look at a company andsay that's one that we should
buy?
That would be a greatinvestment for us?
So kind of like a almost piecesof due diligence I think is
interesting.
But honestly, there's a coupleof things that I'm looking for
next, which would be being a CEOof a company working in private
(41:01):
equity or venture capital, andthat whole area is very
interesting to me.
You know, one of my goals is tobe on a bunch of boards.
One day I'm started workingwith a venture capital company
as a tech advisor, so I help outcompanies here and there, but
those are all things that areout of my comfort zone, but I'm
(41:21):
close enough where I feel likeI'd be great at that.
I hope I'd be great at that.
Tim Bourguignon (41:27):
I'm sure you would with that mentality.
I'm sure you would.
I want to keep piggybacking onthis and I'm searching for an
advice and for many peoplelooking at this unknown thing
you don't know, or things youknow you don't know, knowing or
(41:48):
finding a way to start is alwayshard.
Think, okay, you can be like ananimal in the middle of the
road and with two headlinescoming at your way and you can
be stuck and just not moving.
Or you can have some reflexesof saying, hey, this is what I
do when I don't know.
Did you have some advice for us?
Elise Carmichael (42:05):
Yeah, you know I have a hard time saying you
know what I don't know aboutthis?
Let me go learn.
Let me go learn that.
I have a much easier timeputting myself into a situation
where I'm forced to learnsomething, and I feel like
that's how a lot of people dolearn.
And so you get stuck in thisthing where you're kind of
afraid to move because you don'tknow about it.
(42:26):
But if you just sort of closeyour eyes and leap over, you're
not gonna do anything else butlearn about that because that's
what your time is now dedicatedto.
So that's how I do it.
And then, once you're in thatplace, it's easy enough to
YouTube, Google, read a book, sotons of ways to actually figure
it out once you're there.
Tim Bourguignon (42:46):
Okay.
So find a way to be in thatposition, so not having it as a
side, a side, side, side gigwhere you don't have time for it
really being committed, andthen you have to learn.
Okay, makes sense.
Kind of scary, but makes sense.
Elise Carmichael (43:02):
It is a little scary.
It is a little scary, I think.
You know.
Not everyone wants to exploresomething new.
You know, if you're not someonethat wants to travel to
somewhere new all the time youdon't quite know what to expect.
This may feel extremelyuncomfortable.
I'm someone that always wantsto.
You know, I don't like thrillrides, I don't like going on
roller coasters, but I do liketraveling somewhere new and
(43:24):
having a new experience, andthat's, you know, my favorite
way to kind of travel and seethe world.
I don't want to do the samething over and over again.
Tim Bourguignon (43:32):
That fits the picture perfectly Shocking.
Yeah, no, that's the consistent.
That's really cool, elise.
That's been a hell of a rollercoaster to reuse that world.
Really really cool seeing youStarted as a developer, going
places, going into IT, sayinghey, no, I stopped this, I want
to do something else, and thennever, ever, will I go back to
(43:52):
this industry again and thencoming back to it a couple of
years later and following thishard trail of not knowing where
what you know and finding stuffyou don't know and you want to
learn, and just going there.
Fantastic, really really cool,thank you.
Where would be the best placeto continue the discussion with
you?
Elise Carmichael (44:14):
That's a great question.
I think I probably checkedLinkedIn more than most.
I'm not big on the social mediaI think that's because it's too
much to check, but certainlyLinkedIn.
Anyone can find me and send mea note.
I'd love to hear from anyone,or email is always a great
opportunity, but unfortunatelylots of things go in the trash.
Tim Bourguignon (44:33):
So we'll say LinkedIn, we'll say LinkedIn,
and I'll link your profile inthe show notes just below.
Perfect.
Anything else you want to plugin?
Elise Carmichael (44:44):
I wasn't prepared for this question, so
I'm going to say no.
I feel like I should plug mycompany, lakeside Software.
Come see what we do.
We have this great productcalled SysTrack.
Tim Bourguignon (44:53):
Check that out, just for the record.
You were not prepared for anyquestions for today.
You didn't know any of thequestions I wanted to ask, so
that is true.
Elise Carmichael (45:02):
That is true, I appreciate it.
Tim Bourguignon (45:05):
And I'll add two Lakeside Software as well.
Elise, thank you so much.
Elise Carmichael (45:10):
Thanks for having me.
Tim Bourguignon (45:11):
And this has been another episode of the
Updates First Journey and we'llsee each other next week,
bye-bye.
Thanks a lot for tuning in.
I hope you have enjoyed thisweek's episode.
If you like the show, pleaseshare, rate and review.
It helps more listenersdiscover those stories.
You can find the links to allthe platforms the show appears
(45:33):
on on our website devjourneyinfo, slash, subscribe.
Talk to you soon.
I have a hard time saying you know what I
don't know about this?
Let me go learn.
Let me go learn that.
I have a much easier timeputting myself into a situation
where I'm forced to learnsomething, and I feel like
that's how a lot of people dolearn.
And so you get stuck in thisthing where you're kind of
afraid to move because you don'tknow about it.
But if you just sort of closeyour eyes and leap over, you're
(00:24):
not going to do anything elsebut learn about that, because
that's what your time is nowdedicated to.
So that's how I do it.
And then, once you're in thatplace, it's easy enough to
YouTube, Google, read a book.
So there's tons of ways toactually figure it out once
you're there.
Tim Bourguignon (00:38):
Hello and welcome to Developers Journey,
the podcast bringing you themaking of stories of successful
software developers to help youon your upcoming journey.
I'm your host, tim Bognio.
On this episode, I receiveElise Carmichael.
Elise has over 20 years ofexperience working on high tech,
big data and machine learningbased products in various roles,
(01:01):
spanning from softwaredeveloper and software tester to
VP of product strategy and CTO,as in her current role at
Lakeside.
Elise, welcome to DevTourney.
Elise Carmichael (01:12):
Thanks for having me.
Tim Bourguignon (01:14):
Oh, it's my pleasure.
But before we come to yourstory, I want to thank the
terrific listeners who supportthe show.
Every month you are keeping theDevTourney lights up.
If you would like to join thisfine crew and help me spend more
time on finding phenomenalguests than editing audio tracks
, please go to our website,devjourneyinfo and click on the
(01:38):
support me on Patreon button.
Even the smallest contributionsare giant steps toward a
sustainable DevTourney journey.
Thank you, and now back totoday's guest, elise.
As you know, the show exists tohelp the listeners understand
what your story looked like andimagine how to shape their own
future.
So, as usual on the show, let'sgo back to your beginnings.
(02:00):
Where would you place the startof your DevTourney?
Elise Carmichael (02:04):
Oh, it was quite a long time ago.
I was actually a little kid soI was very fortunate.
My mother actually studiedcomputer science and math at the
University of Illinois, youknow the school where they had
the Iliac and some of the veryfirst computers.
And so, yeah, yeah, so she usedpunch cards and had an
(02:24):
opportunity to work on these youknow giant room computers.
And so I grew up with a veryhigh tech household.
We had all the Atari's, we hadCommodore's, so we had all the
iterations after the Commodore,but the Commodore was my first
computer.
So I absolutely love this thingfrom.
You know, I was in the singledigits when I had this and I
(02:48):
remember we would get thisCommodore 64 magazine.
It came every month in the mailand as part of the magazine it
had you know how to programgames, but it wasn't really
programming.
You would type in numbers andit did this magical thing you
got to the end of the line.
It would tell you if yournumbers were correct, which I
had at the time.
No idea how it could possiblyknow that, but it had to be some
sort of hash.
You know, looking, looking backin time, and you finished.
(03:11):
You know typing in pages andpages of teeny tiny numbers and
out came a game or out camesomething.
So I thought that was amazing.
But what really blew my mind wasI was sitting there with my I
have two older brothers.
I was sitting there with mybrothers, five years older than
me, and I figured out how towrite from the command prompt on
the Commodore a while loop, andin the while loop I wrote out
(03:33):
something to the effective, youknow a print statement.
My brother is a meanie head orsomething you know like a seven
year old would write.
And so it just starts printingout something mean about my
brother and I was sold and I waslike this is the greatest thing
I've ever done.
This is the biggestaccomplishment of my life.
I built that and I was totallyhooked on technology after that.
Tim Bourguignon (03:54):
And I can't understand why.
Yeah.
Elise Carmichael (03:57):
It was.
I just thought it was amazing.
And then I'm turning in, youknow, my reports in school with
a word processor.
Once I started writing reportsin middle school and they had
the you know the shiny coversand I printed on my dot matrix
printer and my teacher was very,very impressed without having
to do anything.
That I thought was particularlyspecial.
So it started very early for me.
Tim Bourguignon (04:18):
Indeed, Did you ?
Did you picture your lifecoming into this direction right
away?
Elise Carmichael (04:24):
So in high school my let's see, he was my
math teacher.
He had us write ourselves aletter to open up at the end of
college or right after collegeto talk to our future selves.
And at that time, let's see,one of the first toy story movie
had come out and I was totallysold on technology and I knew
(04:46):
that I wanted to do somethingwith computers.
So this was maybe a ninth grade, you know, in four years left
in high school and then I knew Iwanted to do something with
music.
So really I wanted to be amusician, but I knew that I
didn't want to be a poormusician or struggling musician.
So the computers was obviouslygoing to be my day job and I'll
(05:07):
do music for fun.
So yeah, I knew pretty earlythat this was going to be my
career in some capacity.
I didn't know what withcomputers, but I knew something
with computers.
So I've stuck to that pretty,pretty darn well.
Tim Bourguignon (05:19):
Wow, this is amazing.
Did you have this?
Elise Carmichael (05:22):
letter still, you know, I don't.
I might be at my parents house,but I really wish I did.
I feel like I'd frame it.
I specifically wanted to workfor Pixar, so I wanted to go
work and build all the softwarethey were using.
And then I found out, you know,once, once I studied I studied
computer science and college andmusic.
Once I found out what thesoftware folks at Pixar did,
(05:45):
which was create all thesoftware that the actual
designers of the movie and youknow, the graphics would do, I
was a little less interested init.
It seemed like a lot of mathand I thought maybe that wasn't
actually for me.
Tim Bourguignon (05:59):
But, but that's cool, cool dream anyway, to
start, to start following.
Elise Carmichael (06:04):
Yeah, yeah, I still remember it, so it was
certainly meaningful in my life.
Tim Bourguignon (06:08):
So so how did you decide which curriculum to
follow and how to start thatjourney toward computer science
on one hand, and music on theother one?
Elise Carmichael (06:18):
So it was actually ready to go to college
before I finished high school.
I had already applied.
I went to the University ofNorth Carolina at Chapel Hill,
which is in North Carolina, ofcourse, and I had a well known
computer program.
In fact the gentleman thatcoined the term a bite like a
computer bite was one of theprofessors at my school.
So we had this great program.
(06:38):
My freshman year was the firstfull class of a computer science
program.
It was math before that, butthey decided they had this whole
computer science building andso it was somewhat glamorous.
You know, it was kind of thefirst first seventh degree in
there, about 30 to 40 kids in myprogram.
So it wasn't that big.
But I knew that's why I wouldn'tdo.
(06:59):
I played the flute on the sideas a music performance major and
I still play, but it's not,it's not professional, it's just
for fun.
So I did that throughoutcollege and I took internships
and things like that because Ialways wanted more.
I loved my classes, I lovedoing programming assignments,
and so I always had Somethinggoing on on the side, even if it
(07:19):
was like an IT help deskinternship or if it was a
programming thing or somethingfor the college over the summer
I did.
I Probably can't even tell youhow many internships I did,
because it was always like athree-month thing here and there
.
I enjoyed that.
Tim Bourguignon (07:36):
Do you remember when you started I'm not sure
the right term entering theworkforce.
I'm sure that's the rightdestination, but, um, how you
pictured the, the work of an ITprofessional, to make it very
generic Before and afterstarting seeing this in the in
the in the industry.
Elise Carmichael (07:56):
Yeah, you know , I, I, I knew that you know I'd
be sitting at a desk all dayand writing code and I thought
that sounded great.
I like building something.
I sort of thought of it as thewhite collar way to build
something and that was what Ireally like building.
Um, but my first job that wasfull-time was not really what I
anticipated and I didn't goafter what everyone else went
(08:18):
after.
So a lot of my Um friends fromcollege went to Silicon Valley.
They went to glamorous jobs atas consultants and they got paid
quite a bit of money.
I, on the other hand, met a boy.
And I decided I was going tomove to Florida and so I looked
for whatever computer jobs Icould find in Gainesville,
(08:41):
florida, which is where I live.
So it's Um, a small collegetown in the middle of Florida.
It's not near anything.
I'm not near a beach, I'm notnear Disney, I'm two hours away
from anything you can imaginehere.
I'm nowhere near Miami.
Um, so I I went what's what'sin Gainesville?
So I looked and applied forbasically every job I could find
(09:02):
.
I looked at like the chamber ofcommerce website, like the
government website, to see what,even what, what companies could
even exist there.
Um, and I finally found a jobat a blood bank, um, you know,
like, kind of like the red cross, but A smaller version in the
southeastern us.
So I took a job in their, theirIT department.
(09:27):
It was pretty small, maybe 25people.
I was the only only woman there.
Um, and I was a softwaredeveloper, slash test automation
engineer, and it was not at allwhat I pig pictured.
It was kind of a cube farm.
Um, we wrote software for theblood intake process.
(09:49):
So someone comes in they say Iwant to donate blood and you
have to fill out forms, and itwould used to all be manual by
hand, and so we made a computerprogram that was, um, all kinds
of HIPAA compliant and you knowvery much in the healthcare
space, because someone's puttingin their name and their medical
history and and all that.
So we worked on this intakeform and it was Not the most
(10:13):
pleasant work environment for me, um, I probably have stories
for for days, um, but it was avery interesting job.
So after Three months of beingthere, I'm a 22 year old Kid
straight out of college.
After three months of beingthere, my boss promoted me to a
manager role.
I managed something like fivepeople.
(10:33):
Uh, there was someone in their40s, other people kind of in
their mid upper 20s, um, and itwas a super awkward position for
me because I didn't knowanything about managing people,
um, and the only reason or atleast what I assume is the
reason that I was offered thisrole is because I could
(10:54):
translate what we were doingFrom a tech perspective Into
what my boss cared about, whichI now know, of course, is
managing up, and there's a wholeart to managing up, um, but
apparently I did that naturally,um, because why else would he
give a 22 year old with no otherprior full-time experience a
(11:15):
manager role Three months afterstarting in a new position in a
new industry.
Tim Bourguignon (11:23):
Did you, um, in hindsight really understand
that, or did you understand itback then?
Uh, when did that happen?
Understand which which parthe's rational for promoting you.
Elise Carmichael (11:36):
Um, I just thought I was amazing.
You know, I was really arrogant, right, like I thought I was
doing a very good job.
I didn't understand that I wasmanaging up, necessarily, but I
did know that I was able tocommunicate things to him that
maybe the team Wasn'tcommunicating well.
He thought I was responsible, Iwas always on time and, um, it
was a very, um, very lockdownplace when you know, some of the
(12:02):
the folks to my team would goto espancom and they were
monitored and so they wouldblock websites if you went to
certain websites.
So it was a very toxic place.
So you know, it wasn't.
It wasn't the greatestexperience for me.
I didn't stay there for superlong.
However, having that experiencebecoming a manager, of course
I'm gonna take very seriouslyand try to understand all the
(12:24):
things that I don't knowanything about I am actually.
My next job in technology wasfollowing one of the people that
I managed to another company,so is how I found out about my
next tech job.
Tim Bourguignon (12:41):
Okay, take us there maybe.
Elise Carmichael (12:43):
Yeah, so fun fact, I didn't go straight there
.
I decided that because it wassuch a toxic place I'm skipping
out on technology jobs.
I went to pre med.
I took pre med classes.
I was like gonna be a doctor,yeah.
So I was like forget this, isit for me?
I had other experiences ofbeing the only woman there where
(13:05):
people kind of treated me in anot super pleasant way when they
found out I had a boyfriend,and it was a little toxic for
multiple reasons.
Yeah, I wanted to go to medschool wow.
Tim Bourguignon (13:20):
So it was bad enough to really Discuss.
You enough to stop being inthis industry and go do
something else.
Elise Carmichael (13:29):
Yeah, yeah, I did take a short job after that.
That was remote, so I did havea remote job for maybe another
year after that, but it was inthe multi level marketing space
and that was a different kind oftoxic, because I thought the
product was terrible and Ididn't like how they approached
it.
So I learned about multi levelmarketing.
So at that point I was likesoftware is not for me, this is
(13:50):
not for me.
Everywhere can't be like this.
So I actually took a job at adoctor's office.
I learned how to draw blood andhelp with minor procedures and
was a medical assistant in thefamily practice office while I
was taking pre med courses atlocal school in florida.
Tim Bourguignon (14:09):
Holy moly, I have a.
First of all, I want toapologize for whatever happened
and all the men who, yeah, butwow, and how did you find your
way back into the end?
Elise Carmichael (14:24):
So, fun fact, I was working at the doctor's
office and I heard someone talkabout this company that's in
town here who one of the peoplethat had worked for me
previously told me he left forany city love.
This company is a companycalled info tech Not the big
info tech in india, but a local,florida info tech and this
(14:44):
person that I worked with saidwhat absolutely love working.
There was a wonderful place.
It was nothing like where wehad worked before, and I heard
someone come to the doctor'soffice saying that they work
there and I overheard thisconversation.
So me being the super shyperson that I am, I walked up to
them and was like who are you?
What do you do there?
You know, tell me more aboutyourself.
(15:05):
I do.
You know this person?
I know this person.
They said it's great, turns outshe was the head of hr there
and said that there were acouple open positions and that I
should come back and come backinto tech and apply form.
So I said what the heck?
I had an interview, phoneinterview, maybe.
A couple of days later they saidcome on in for an in person
(15:27):
interview.
In fact, there's two differentjobs open.
Why don't you interview forboth of them and at this point
I've been out of writing codefor I don't know you're gonna
have because I was pursuing thisother side thing, because I
thought technology was just sotoxic and terrible everywhere.
So I show up for the interview.
It went really well.
(15:47):
I got offered both jobs.
They said, pick whichever oneyou want.
It was for, you know, hundredand forty percent pay raise from
what I was making previouslyand I said, okay, well, this
sounds great.
I maybe, I'll, maybe I'll hopback in here and, to be fair,
after working at doctors officedealing with health insurance
(16:07):
companies and the generalpopulation, I thought maybe I
gotta give technology anotherchance.
I did pretty well.
So I took a job at this company, info tech, and stay there for
about six years and worked indifferent roles, but I started
out writing code.
I really love the team I workedwith.
Software we are working on isreally interesting, even though
(16:30):
it was in the constructionmanagement space, which doesn't
scream interesting.
But I learned a lot about thatindustry and so when you learn
about industry it's always kindof interesting.
So much you don't know I cantell you now.
You know how much it cost tobuild a road and all the
components I go into building aroad really interesting.
Tim Bourguignon (16:50):
That I understand as well.
I joined a company doing mainelevator maintenance two years
ago.
I never imagine I would be inthe living I have so many
questions.
Elise Carmichael (17:01):
How do they fix the police so they hold
something up while the policesystems?
About the belt systems.
I actually love how elevatorswork.
Tim Bourguignon (17:09):
It's super interesting, right we can take
that up after the call.
That's fair.
So back to your story.
Did that manage to cure that?
That company info tech managedto cure a little bit the toxic
picture you had in your mind.
Elise Carmichael (17:25):
Hundred percent.
I did discover other toxicthings about different kinds of
customers you can have, maybethe construction space, but it
was a wonderful place to work.
I love my co-workers, projectswere interesting, I was
constantly learning new stuffand I remembered.
This is what I love abouttechnology, and so I have not
(17:47):
jumped career paths since I wasquite a while ago, but that was.
That was a really big deal tome.
I'm still friends with withmany of the people that I work
with.
Tim Bourguignon (17:57):
Hooray.
Finally, you mentioned inpassing multiple roles in the
sexy six years, ten years thatyou had.
What kind of roles do you takeon?
Elise Carmichael (18:08):
Yes, I started off I think they called me a
systems analyst or seniorsystems analyst is basically a
senior developer role, so I didthat.
But what I really learned thatcompany was two things.
I visited my first customer onsite and I really enjoyed
traveling and visiting customerand talking to them and it's
(18:29):
always different seeing yoursoftware in the real world with
a real user than sitting at yourdesk and I thought that that
just gives you kind of an extrafeeling of accomplishment.
And I built this, I worked onthis, I know how it works, I can
answer any question thatthey're going to throw at me,
and so that that was great.
And then I also learned that Iliked having an opinion on what
(18:53):
we built, not just being handedwhat we were built, and that
those two things have reallyshaped a lot of the different
paths that I've gone on.
Although I'm the the CTO at mycurrent company, I'm responsible
for the engineering anddelivery of the product, but
also I run the productorganization, so that groups
(19:15):
kind of deciding what you'rebuilding, and I'm also running
security, I'm also running cloudand there's a reason that I
feel comfortable in all of thoseareas and it's really due to
kind of a varied career that Ihave leading up to that.
Tim Bourguignon (19:28):
Okay, I'm jumping quite far, but, but
running engineering productorganization security in cloud,
that's quite a stretch for you,even if you can, if you can do
it regardless, it's, it's reallya lot.
Elise Carmichael (19:43):
It is.
It is, and you can only do itif you have fantastic
lieutenants in every area.
So I would like to be not thesmartest one in the room.
I want all the people that workfor me to be much smarter than
I am and to know more about thatthing.
I only know enough to drawboxes, arrows, architecture
diagrams high level of these arewhere the pieces connect.
(20:03):
I can identify the rightproblems and understand what
they're talking to me about,versus necessarily saying this
is how we should build our, youknow, cloud architecture.
I don't know the best practicesand everything everywhere, by
any means.
Tim Bourguignon (20:16):
I hear you understanding enough to smell
what's right and smell if itdoesn't right, and be able to
ask the right question at theright time, but having them the
experts do the right thing.
Elise Carmichael (20:28):
Exactly.
Tim Bourguignon (20:29):
I hear you Exactly.
Okay so back to thisorganization.
You started as a seniordeveloper and then likes having
a broad area or broad spectrumof action.
I heard having an opinion onthing.
That means going towarddefining where the product is
going.
Elise Carmichael (20:49):
Yeah, so we had that was the first company
as that we adopted this newshiny concept of agile and it
was really scrum and a kind ofscrum, but it was.
It was really close to whatwhat you would consider kind of
the mainstream scrum.
Now we had stand ups.
I had before you software tomanage tickets.
We had note cards that we wroteour quasi user stories on.
(21:14):
We drew lines on a giantwhiteboard that had our names
for who who had what ticket andthen you would move the tickets
long and I always wanted to ripup the ticket when we were done
because it was a feeling ofaccomplishment, but my product
owner wanted to keep them.
I remember having a like a endof year review with my boss, who
(21:38):
at the time was that productowner, and he was like you know,
where do you see yourself in acouple years, five years,
something like that and I toldhim I would like his job, which
I thought would go over great,and I thought he would be
flattered.
I don't think he was that flat,I comment, but I just thought
you know, I really like that,the concept of product, and
(21:58):
although I didn't go straightthere, after this I did have an
opportunity to lead one of theproducts at that company.
I still had a product owner,but I had a lot more influence
over what we built and how webuilt it.
So I kind of started runningthe whole product and being
responsible for delivery of thatproduct.
So that was kind of my finalrole at that company.
Tim Bourguignon (22:21):
Awesome, awesome.
That's a very interesting placeto be when you can have a foot
in on those two worlds.
Define the what and define thehow at the same time.
Try to be not too schizophrenicof mixing up the two and really
letting the how away for a bit,working on the what, but going
back and forth.
This is really a great place tobe.
I understand you fully.
(22:41):
So what decided you to leavethis company?
If you were in such a rightplace?
Elise Carmichael (22:48):
Oh, money, money, I gotta I.
So I've been very fortunate mycareer where, other than my
first job when I first moved toFlorida, I never really applied
for a job.
Everything has sort of happenedand I have attacked it like
that person at the doctor'soffice.
I didn't send a resume and Ijust talked to her and was like,
(23:11):
can I, can I go apply for that?
And so the next company Iworked for, they found me on
LinkedIn.
I said, sure, I'll interview.
It was in.
I know about trucking, so it wasin the trucking industry, so I
know about logistics andtrucking and it was really
purely for money.
They paid me quite a bit moremoney and I didn't think my
other company would match and Ithought I'd been there six years
.
Let's break out of my comfortzone, do something brand new
(23:34):
that I don't know anything about, because that's been my other
MO throughout my careers to takeon something that is harder
than what I'm doing or moreunknown.
So I worked at that truckingcompany for a while and then,
kind of the next big thing thathappened in my career is I get a
phone call from a gentlemannamed Daniel Cohen and he was
(23:57):
running engineering at aprofessional services company
called Mope Equity and theyspecialized in mobile app
development, which I had noexperience in, and responsive
web apps, which I had noexperience in, and Alexa skills
was their other big thing.
So he said I want you to comework for Mope Equity.
We're building an office inGainesville.
(24:18):
And I said you don't have anoffice area.
I don't know, I have a smallchild.
That seems kind of risky.
Maybe I'll think about it.
So I didn't take it right away.
But he kept pestering me.
He and someone in their HR teamkept pestering me in a good way
and finally I said OK, ok,let's, let's talk again.
(24:39):
They had started opening theoffice and he asked me to run a
program at that company calledon ramp.
So it was something that Danielhad just kind of come up with
and it was a training programfor new software developers and
testers who were straight out ofcollege or had done a boot camp
and could pass a very difficultinterview, and the program
(25:02):
would basically teach you how tobuild software on the team for
a large organization.
So we would put together thesesmall teams and work for a CVS
or work for the weather channelor name brand companies that
people have heard of.
So I said, ok, I've never doneany kind of training before.
I don't think I've ever doneany public speaking before.
(25:24):
That sounds terrifying.
I don't have any idea what Idon't know about all of this.
Sign me up.
That sounds great.
So I started at this companyrunning this training program
that he had started and I alsodid.
(25:47):
I would hire people to come inand teach how to program in
Objective C and then Swift laterfor iOS, because that was not a
skill set that I was an expertin.
But we would actually go hirepeople who were absolute experts
in it and pay them a crazyamount of money to come in for
three weeks to leave whateverthey were doing for three weeks,
to basically live inGainesville and teach this.
(26:10):
We did the same for Android.
I taught the software test onebecause I knew a lot about
software testing and testautomation, so I taught that one
.
I ran a bunch of these programs.
I ran in India one time, so Iwas in India for like a month,
and so it was completelydifferent than what I've been
doing, and while I was there Ialso changed roles multiple
(26:31):
times.
I started taking over projectsif they were on fire, because I
really liked working with thecustomers I found out.
I really liked working withangry customers.
For some awful reason, I justwanted to make them our biggest
fans.
You know, hey, you're reallyangry about how this project's
going.
Let me take it over.
I have your back, I'm going tohelp you.
And I just over communicatedwith them.
(26:53):
I would tell them no, we're notgoing to do that, that's not
what your statement of work says.
And then I ultimately took overQA.
I took over engineering.
I eventually took Daniel's jobwhen he left the organization,
so that was a very eye openingcompany.
I stayed there for quite awhile and had lots of
experiences in differentindustries.
(27:14):
From working on healthcaresoftware, which has its own kind
of compliance, I worked on thefirst FDA approved mobile app,
which was kind of interesting,so it actually delivered
medicine via an app.
I don't think it was, in thepublic, super well received
because it was scary, sort oflike a self driving car was.
(27:34):
You know, I don't trust thisthing, but it was a very, very
interesting experience gettingto work with all these different
types of companies anddifferent industries.
Tim Bourguignon (27:47):
You mentioned twice.
Hey, it's hard to sign me in.
Is this the way you motivateyourself?
Elise Carmichael (27:53):
or you push yourself, or I have no idea why
I do this, but this has beenabsolutely my thing.
If it's something I'muncomfortable with, a little bit
uncomfortable with, it soundshard.
I'm not sure what I'm doing.
I am so committed that I willfigure it out and find a way to
do it, because you have to.
Someone's going to figure itout why not me?
(28:15):
So that role was very much.
Daniel was a great mentor to meand he was very motivating.
He knew that someone with mybackground could figure that out
and I think he really helpedpush me in that direction.
That was such a big deal to meand throughout my career there
(28:39):
he always pushed me into thingsand I think I really appreciated
that and I've taken that withme everywhere I've been since in
every role and what I encouragemy team members to do.
Tim Bourguignon (28:50):
When you say he pushed you, what do you mean
exactly?
He encouraged you, he helpedyou split things in smaller
parts so that you see, hey, it'sdoable, and you can go there.
Elise Carmichael (29:05):
He just pushed me.
He just pushed me.
This is what you need to knowand you'll be fine.
So, for example, when I wasdoing the training, I watched
him do it or I watched otherpeople do it before I was sort
of left on my own one time.
So I saw one entire we calledthem classes of students I saw
(29:28):
them go through this wholeprogram one time and then I was
basically on my own.
After there was an area that Iknew well, but not extremely
well.
So one area was Git.
It was still relatively new Isuppose at the time.
Git is relatively new still,but it was something I was
teaching everyone and I reallyneeded to understand it inside
(29:52):
and out, like how does it work,so I could answer all these
questions that all thesetechnical folks are going to ask
me about it, and so that wasthe kind of thing.
So I just practiced a lot on myown because I knew I could
learn it.
But it wasn't something I knew.
But I wasn't going to say nojust because I don't know that
one technology.
So same thing with anytechnology I've needed to learn
(30:14):
in my career I'll figure it out,and I always do or did.
Tim Bourguignon (30:20):
Okay, okay, now you've been more on the other
side of this bench, probablyfinding people to push and or
finding what people need andhelping them get there.
Do you have some kind ofheuristic of who you can push
and for whom it would beconstructive to push?
Elise Carmichael (30:40):
Absolutely so you can always tell when you
have team members that do alittle bit extra.
Hey, I see a problem, I justwent ahead and did this thing.
It could be a small, trivialthing Like hey, I noticed we
didn't have this thingdocumented, so I started this
documentation and, even better,I asked a couple other people to
(31:02):
help fill it in.
Those are the people you canpush because you know that they
are problem solvers.
They're not just going to say,oh, there's no documentation and
then like, move on and complainabout it.
The people that are problemsolvers, that want to better
everything around them, or theysee a gap in a process and they
say, what if we do it this way?
And they bring it up and it'snever, you know, it's someone
(31:25):
else's problem.
It's like you know who isresponsible for that?
Oh, there's no one responsiblefor that.
Why don't I do that?
Those are the people that youjust see their careers take off,
and a lot of the people whowent through this on-ramp
program at Mobiquity went theextra mile to find a company
that did this training programwhere you had homework, and it
(31:49):
was a very challenging program.
It lasted seven weeks or youwould find people that changed
careers, went through this bootcamp and we picked certain boot
camps that were like longer bootcamps, that were immersive boot
camps, so they really, like youcould tell they wanted to do
this.
One person, for example, camewho's a general contractor, so
he was in construction and it'slike I'm going to learn how to
(32:10):
do Android development.
Yeah, so he comes and does thisprogram and it is so amazing to
see how successful this groupof people who went through this
training program are today.
It's been, you know, one ofthose kind of life changing
things.
Every time I think about it.
Tim Bourguignon (32:26):
It must feel really fantastic to look back
and see those faces and seewhere they became, absolutely,
and knowing that you had aforming role in there.
Elise Carmichael (32:36):
I'd like to think so.
Tim Bourguignon (32:39):
I'm sure this is the case.
I have your profile, your linkprofile, open right there and
your subsequent roles go allover the place.
You have VP, quality VP,product strategy VP, enterprise
evangelist, vp, vice presidentof product.
Was there a definitive move ofgoing in all those directions?
Elise Carmichael (33:00):
100%.
So while I was at Mobiquity Ibought a product called Q-Test
and Q-Test is a test managementand enterprise quality test
management solution.
So at Mobiquity we had all ofour testing teams for all the
projects that they were doingfor other companies work within
this test management tool sothey could have a very unified
(33:22):
looking test suite.
So they all had theirregression tests and their smoke
tests.
So it wasn't tracked super wellbefore this and you wanted to
be able to send what testing youhad done to the customer so
they could feel confident inwhat they did.
So Q-Test was run by a companycalled QI Symphony and they were
based in Atlanta and I guess atthat time was one of their
(33:46):
bigger customers.
So they had asked me hey, canyou speak at our conference?
And I'd never done a conferencetalk before, so of course I'd
go.
Yes, that sounds great, I haveno idea what I'm doing.
And I went and spoke at theirconference about how to do
testing for mobile devices andhow we store that data in Q-Test
, and so the talk went reallywell and it was their first user
(34:10):
conference.
So it was a relatively youngcompany still and they had like
an after party after the eventand I went to the party at the
Spurri and ended up meeting thefounders of the company and the
CEO of the company.
The CEO's name was Dave Kyleand I told Dave probably after a
couple of drinks when I waseven more outgoing than maybe I
(34:33):
normally am that I really likedthe product, I thought I had
tons of potential and then I wasgoing to come work for him one
day.
So maybe three or four monthslater I sent him a message.
Professional services is a verychallenging industry.
It's just constantly moving,there's constant fires and
things going on because there'sso many projects.
(34:53):
So it's a very difficultindustry to be in.
And although I do really likeit, I missed product companies
and so I called him up one dayand said okay, what do you have,
what do you have going for me?
And so he flew me out.
Maybe a week later I interviewedfrom when I landed in Atlanta,
which was like 7 am, so I hadlike a breakfast meeting and,
(35:19):
fun fact, I had the founder ofthe company, who owns another
company as well, show up as myfirst interviewee and I wasn't
expecting it.
He wasn't on my schedule and hesaid Dave said I could talk to
you if it doesn't work out at QASymphony.
And so he interviewed me for arole at his company who I'd met
(35:39):
him.
The same night I met Dave, so Ithought that was amazing.
I felt like a million bucksafter that.
So I interviewed all the waythrough dinner.
So I had a breakfast, lunch anddinner there, Flew home that
night and they gave me a joboffer for this VP of QA role,
which was actually a subjectmatter expert role.
Plus I was running QA at thecompany, which you know the
(36:02):
small companies, really small,relatively small team and so
that's when I started gettinginto product.
So I spent most of my timethere with the product team and
saying this is what we shouldbuild or this is how we should
build it, and I started learningabout the product side of the
world and then took over theproduct team while I was there.
So that's how I really gotfully into kind of the product
(36:22):
side.
It was very strange not beingas close to the code, but I did
work with the engineering teamquite a bit while I was there.
Tim Bourguignon (36:30):
Okay, okay, because that would have been the
next question.
How'd you?
Elise Carmichael (36:34):
come back.
Yeah, it's been.
I've always stayed withengineering to some degree
because it's so important thatthe product team and engineering
team work completely in sync.
They're like it's great whenthey're run by two separate
people, when you have the thisis what we need to build this
tower building, and you don'tkind of make the decisions
separately.
I have seen, like like where Iam now, it does sometimes work
(36:58):
better when they're together.
It kind of depends on theproduct a little bit.
But then try, try sent us and QASymphony merged, so I went
through a merger and then I wasrunning product strategy and we
had people.
We had some duplicate roles andso I ended up being an
evangelist for the company,which was basically was doing
(37:18):
tons of public speakingengagements, which I still don't
like, and yet I still do them.
But I did a lot of travelingand speaking on behalf and I
also helped run the go to marketactivities for the Q test
products still.
So after the merger I was incharge of making sure the sales
team knew what they were doing.
The marketing team was talkingabout the right stuff.
So I really started gettingmuch more involved in the
(37:39):
business side of how to sellsoftware, and so I spent a lot
of time at QA Symphony and atTricentus learning about that.
I went to another softwaretesting company after that that
did test automation with machinelearning and AI.
So I got much more.
I was more educated in kind ofthe machine learning space.
(38:05):
I realized I didn't know asmuch as I would have liked to
know, so I spent a lot of timeresearching that.
And then Dave comes to a newcompany called Lakeside and I
joined back at Lakeside, whichis where I am now.
So that's kind of my whole fullcircle.
I loved working for Dave and soI thought it was a great
opportunity I knew he waslooking at coming to Lakeside.
(38:27):
I loved it was a big datacompany and I thought, oh,
there's tons of opportunity.
You have all this data.
Look at all this machinelearning we can do on this.
Having data is gold right now.
So I was just really excited towork on a product that's in the
IT space so a technical productis kind of my sweet spot and
then getting to run engineeringwhen I first started.
(38:47):
And then I took over a productabout six months ago.
Tim Bourguignon (38:50):
Mm, I think I'm on that, thank you.
So what did you find atLakeside in the realm of who?
I have no idea how to do that.
That's fantastic.
Let's do it.
Elise Carmichael (39:01):
You know there's a lot of things at
Lakeside I didn't know coming in.
So the interesting thing is onthe IT space and but like
traditional IT so kind of youremployees, machines and you know
the digital workplace and thatwas kind of a whole industry
that I was not as familiar with.
(39:21):
Like I know your basic helpdesk stuff.
I know there's applicationowners, but I don't really
understand or I didn't Now I doI didn't really understand how
that part of large organizationswas set up.
So I always worked kind of onthe engineering and new product
development side.
So that was my I don't knowwhat I'm doing and I better
learn that really quickly Sideone joining here.
(39:42):
But thankfully a lot of theother stuff has been at least
familiar enough to me, which iswhy I was able to take an
elevated role here.
I think it's okay, I've donethis, I've done all of this
stuff before.
I just have to learn a littlebit on the industry of the
product we're selling into.
Tim Bourguignon (39:58):
Having been that broad or that yeah, broad,
that's best word I have to add.
What's the next thing thatattracts you in this regard?
And hey, this is something Ihave no idea about.
I want to learn about it.
Elise Carmichael (40:15):
You know, I've spent a lot of the last maybe
10 years working on the businessside and understanding more on
the business side, so that was agap.
I really like understandingthings around M&A so acquiring
companies, emerging withcompanies so there's areas there
that I certainly know moreabout now than I did before, and
(40:38):
that's been an area of a lot ofinterest.
How do I look at a company andsay that's one that we should
buy?
That would be a greatinvestment for us?
So kind of like a almost piecesof due diligence I think is
interesting.
But honestly, there's a coupleof things that I'm looking for
next, which would be being a CEOof a company working in private
(41:01):
equity or venture capital, andthat whole area is very
interesting to me.
You know, one of my goals is tobe on a bunch of boards.
One day I'm started workingwith a venture capital company
as a tech advisor, so I help outcompanies here and there, but
those are all things that areout of my comfort zone, but I'm
(41:21):
close enough where I feel likeI'd be great at that.
I hope I'd be great at that.
Tim Bourguignon (41:27):
I'm sure you would with that mentality.
I'm sure you would.
I want to keep piggybacking onthis and I'm searching for an
advice and for many peoplelooking at this unknown thing
you don't know, or things youknow you don't know, knowing or
(41:48):
finding a way to start is alwayshard.
Think, okay, you can be like ananimal in the middle of the
road and with two headlinescoming at your way and you can
be stuck and just not moving.
Or you can have some reflexesof saying, hey, this is what I
do when I don't know.
Did you have some advice for us?
Elise Carmichael (42:05):
Yeah, you know I have a hard time saying you
know what I don't know aboutthis?
Let me go learn.
Let me go learn that.
I have a much easier timeputting myself into a situation
where I'm forced to learnsomething, and I feel like
that's how a lot of people dolearn.
And so you get stuck in thisthing where you're kind of
afraid to move because you don'tknow about it.
(42:26):
But if you just sort of closeyour eyes and leap over, you're
not gonna do anything else butlearn about that because that's
what your time is now dedicatedto.
So that's how I do it.
And then, once you're in thatplace, it's easy enough to
YouTube, Google, read a book, sotons of ways to actually figure
it out once you're there.
Tim Bourguignon (42:46):
Okay.
So find a way to be in thatposition, so not having it as a
side, a side, side, side gigwhere you don't have time for it
really being committed, andthen you have to learn.
Okay, makes sense.
Kind of scary, but makes sense.
Elise Carmichael (43:02):
It is a little scary.
It is a little scary, I think.
You know.
Not everyone wants to exploresomething new.
You know, if you're not someonethat wants to travel to
somewhere new all the time youdon't quite know what to expect.
This may feel extremelyuncomfortable.
I'm someone that always wantsto.
You know, I don't like thrillrides, I don't like going on
roller coasters, but I do liketraveling somewhere new and
(43:24):
having a new experience, andthat's, you know, my favorite
way to kind of travel and seethe world.
I don't want to do the samething over and over again.
Tim Bourguignon (43:32):
That fits the picture perfectly Shocking.
Yeah, no, that's the consistent.
That's really cool, elise.
That's been a hell of a rollercoaster to reuse that world.
Really really cool seeing youStarted as a developer, going
places, going into IT, sayinghey, no, I stopped this, I want
to do something else, and thennever, ever, will I go back to
(43:52):
this industry again and thencoming back to it a couple of
years later and following thishard trail of not knowing where
what you know and finding stuffyou don't know and you want to
learn, and just going there.
Fantastic, really really cool,thank you.
Where would be the best placeto continue the discussion with
you?
Elise Carmichael (44:14):
That's a great question.
I think I probably checkedLinkedIn more than most.
I'm not big on the social mediaI think that's because it's too
much to check, but certainlyLinkedIn.
Anyone can find me and send mea note.
I'd love to hear from anyone,or email is always a great
opportunity, but unfortunatelylots of things go in the trash.
Tim Bourguignon (44:33):
So we'll say LinkedIn, we'll say LinkedIn,
and I'll link your profile inthe show notes just below.
Perfect.
Anything else you want to plugin?
Elise Carmichael (44:44):
I wasn't prepared for this question, so
I'm going to say no.
I feel like I should plug mycompany, lakeside Software.
Come see what we do.
We have this great productcalled SysTrack.
Tim Bourguignon (44:53):
Check that out, just for the record.
You were not prepared for anyquestions for today.
You didn't know any of thequestions I wanted to ask, so
that is true.
Elise Carmichael (45:02):
That is true, I appreciate it.
Tim Bourguignon (45:05):
And I'll add two Lakeside Software as well.
Elise, thank you so much.
Elise Carmichael (45:10):
Thanks for having me.
Tim Bourguignon (45:11):
And this has been another episode of the
Updates First Journey and we'llsee each other next week,
bye-bye.
Thanks a lot for tuning in.
I hope you have enjoyed thisweek's episode.
If you like the show, pleaseshare, rate and review.
It helps more listenersdiscover those stories.
You can find the links to allthe platforms the show appears
(45:33):
on on our website devjourneyinfo, slash, subscribe.
Talk to you soon.
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