#300 Celebrating a Journey of Connection, Diversity, and Discovery

Three hundred episodes in, and here we stand at the precipice of a momentous pause – a time to reflect on the profound connections and conversations that have shaped this podcast's journey. From the early days of syncing episodes with the first iPod Nano, I've walked a path of personal and professional evolution alongside DevJourney. Each recording session has been an opportunity to craft a space for honest storytelling, where my guests and I ventured beyond mere interviews, engaging in a heart-to-heart discussion that resonated with the pulse of storytelling – a dance of words that leaves us all richer in understanding and shared wisdom.

Michael Chan helps me -Tim Bourguignon- navigate the rich tapestry of developer experiences gathered on the show. We talked about the compelling narratives of career transitions and the joys of mentoring; we've underscored the significance of diversity and the importance of acknowledging each individual as a 'senior human being' with valuable life experiences. This celebration of unity and mutual growth, akin to the heartwarming philosophy of "Ted Lasso," has been a recurring theme, inspiring us to build bridges and foster community within the ever-changing landscape of technology.

Closing this chapter with episode 300, I'm filled with gratitude for the guests who've graced this platform, the listeners who've followed along, and the stories that have left an indelible mark on us all. As I prepare for a new chapter with my family in France, the values of discovery and connection remain my guiding beacons. Though the microphone will rest for a season, the journey is far from over. To all who've accompanied me thus far, thank you for the honor of your time and engagement, and here's to the future encounters that await us all on the other side of this interlude.

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Episode Transcript

Michael Chan (00:00):
I hope that it meets your expectations.
And, you know, honors the lastepisode, because you know this
is the one that gets downloaded.
It's the first download forforever.
Damn, I didn't think about that.

(01:03):
Thank you.
Hello everyone on this episode.

Tim Bourguignon (01:05):
I receive my call Hold up, let's roll it back
.

Michael Chan (01:08):
I think it might be time to get some questions in
there about you.

Tim Bourguignon (01:14):
It's supposed to be about the guest, not about
me.

Michael Chan (01:17):
You've had like what 299 of them.
I feel like you've maybe earnedit, but I don't like it.

Tim Bourguignon (01:24):
I feel like, no , you're right, I don't like
being in a hot seat, but uh, butI guess, I guess we have to,
you know after 299 conversations, you've probably learned a
thing or two.

Michael Chan (01:35):
That's.
That's a lot of information todistill that's a rumor.

Tim Bourguignon (01:40):
I didn't learn anything, it was just fun.

Michael Chan (01:46):
Just fun, I know, I know, I know I'm very
impressed.
I made it to about like 123, Ithink was the magic number on my
show, but I only led a littleover 100 of those.
So I'm like really impressed byyour stamina to hit a full 300.
That's pretty wild.

Tim Bourguignon (02:05):
Well, thank you .
First of all, it's been aroller coaster, I must say.
It's been so much fun.
It's been meeting absolutelyfantastic people.
It's been learning stuff Inever suspected existed.
But it's been long nights.
It's been worrying where thenext guest is going to come from

(02:28):
.
It's been pulling out themidnight oil, trying to finish
recording and then editing onMonday evening for a publication
on Tuesday morning.
Yeah, it's been a rollercoaster.

Michael Chan (02:42):
It's kind of a ridiculous amount of work right.
It's like all of the stuff thatno one would possibly imagine,
you know, as it just kind ofpops into a feed yes, indeed, at
the very beginning, I meanrecently.

Tim Bourguignon (02:57):
For the past 18 months or two years, process
has been quite well honed.
It wasn't so much work anymoreand by it wasn't so much work.
I would say there's somethinglike an hour and a half
recording for an episode andthere would be an hour and a
half work before and an hour anda half work after.
That.
I love that.

Michael Chan (03:14):
I love that.

Tim Bourguignon (03:14):
Yeah, so you get to do a lot of the good part
yeah, but at the beginning itwas something like two, three
hours before and 10 to 15 after,and that that was insane that
was really insane um I mean, I'mI'm kind of anal on on the
quality of what I produced, andso I really, really, really uh,

(03:39):
went over every sentence and andshortened poses and really
tried to make it absolutelyperfect.
And at some point I had torealize that the return on
investment of that part was notas high as I had hoped, and so I
I I throttled down a little bitthe the effort, but still it

(03:59):
was.
Yeah, it's really interesting.

Michael Chan (04:00):
Now I I actually want to talk about the
production part of this, but Ithink before that, I'd like to
know, like, what got you eveninto the idea of podcasting?
Because I think you said youstarted in 2016-ish, right, and
I think it was way less.
This was before everybody had apodcast.
This was like still kind of ayou know newish underground

(04:21):
phenomenon.
What was that light bulb momentfor you where you're like it's
podcast time um.

Tim Bourguignon (04:27):
So first of all , I've been a podcast junkie for
for over 20 years have you beenaround?
That long almost, yeah, Iremember recording, uh,
recording radio shows, takingthem with with me with the first
iPod and when the iPod Nanocame out, the first version of

(04:48):
the iPod Nano 2005, was it?
I think that's where I startedseeing the first digital shows
coming up.
I'm not sure if it was calledpodcast yet, but it kind of
started with the iPod.

Michael Chan (05:02):
But it wasn't music, it was like a
conversation it wasn't music, itwas like a conversation.

Tim Bourguignon (05:05):
It wasn't music , it was people talking, exactly
, exactly.
And then came the idea of thisRSS feed and the episodes
showing up in your inbox.
Back then in iTunes, you had toplug your iPod and synchronize
the damn thing.
It was a nightmare.
Cables Between yeah, exactlybetween, exactly.

(05:32):
And then for for the the next10 years, I've had earplugs
everywhere and I've beenlistening to something
everywhere, and so really,podcasts were, were front and
center in what I did.
Um, I I commuted a lot with mybike and so I had, uh, between
45 minutes to an hour orsomething of biking every
morning, and every evening wassomething, my years and it was
really part of my life, and soobviously at some point I

(05:54):
started asking myself, could Ibe on the other side, on the
other side of that?
But Dev Journey didn't start asa podcast.
Yeah, I'm not sure I've toldthis story on the show yet.
Actually, it's high time I wasworking for a company.
Yeah, I've told the rest of thestory quite often, but this

(06:15):
piece I think haven't.
I was in a company that wasreally close to editors, to book
editors, and a German bookeditor came to me because he
knew my boss and asked me if Icould do some kind of career
book for new software developers.
And they wanted some clean codein there, they wanted some soft

(06:38):
skills in there and everything.
And we discussed quite a bitabout what they wanted and in
the end end we didn't align atall on what it should be.
But that sparked somethingsaying hey, uh, somebody wanted
me to write something about that.
What that is weird.
And so I started scratching thesurface and I was in a to this,

(07:01):
this part, I am not sure I it.
And so I really startedscratching the surface saying,
hey, is there some kind of bookthat I had in my mind at that
time, which was not what theeditor had in mind, that I could
be writing?
And right around that time Iwas working as a consultant for
for German bank.
They did some crazy bullshit.

(07:21):
They did some crazy bullshitbasically they had a project
they had a project.
I won't tell the full story, butthey had a project that was
already two years late, that hadbeen budgeted for about two to
three million.
When we came in it was alreadyfive to six and they told us
well, just finish it.

Michael Chan (07:43):
And I worked there for two years and it took three
more to finish it, do you knowwhat the total of that was With
a budget of 26.
?

Tim Bourguignon (07:53):
26.
Yeah, there is a wholepolitical story behind it, but
we won't get into there storybehind it and uh, but we won't
get into there.
But one of the things I did forthat company was was some
training, uh, xp training,coaching, and then at some point
take a role of a coach, um,those grandmaster, coach, uh,

(08:15):
kind of project lead dwellinginto this.
And one of the things we had todo was really hire a whole lot
of people because the projectwas late, so obviously you add
more people to it.
It might ring a bell, if you'veread the mythical mind yes, as
a very bad thing to do.
So we did it, obviously, and Iwas very puzzled by all the

(08:37):
profiles that was attractingattention inside the bank.
They were looking at profilesthat didn't attract me, didn't
sound interesting, profiles thatwere more of the same, more
profiles which had led to thisfiasco, and that, plus that book
story, sparked something saying, hey, I don't agree with that.

(08:59):
And that's where first an ideaof a book started.
I started sketching essays.
I structured it as somethinglike 20 to 40 essays that were
building on top of each other,which you could just read one,
and then let it go for a whileand then come back, read one
again and again, and again.
I did as well.

(09:19):
I did some testing and peoplewere telling me well, it was fun
, the first one was fun and thesecond one was fun, and then I
forgot about it and never cameback to it.

Michael Chan (09:29):
That's the real dev journey right there.
Exactly.

Tim Bourguignon (09:34):
Exactly.
And so, slowly but surely, thisidea of doing a book just
didn't stick and I did sometalks.
That's where I started talkingabout unicorns quite a bit.
That stuck with me for a while.
Stick and I did some talks um,that's where I started talking
about unicorns quite a bit.
That stuck with me for a while.
I received some unicorn goodiesfrom my uh, from my colleagues.
After that, quite a long time,I have some, some, some shoes in

(09:56):
unicorns form somewhere yearround, and but at some point, in
order to to write all this, Ihad started asking questions
around and really calling peopleand asking them questions about
hiring, about their career, etc.
And this started to, or theidea started to germinate and
say, hey, that might be reallyinteresting.

(10:16):
And there we get stories thatI've never heard somewhere else,
and that's basically when 1plus 1 plus one made three and
the idea of a podcast started.
That's the long answer.
I love it.
I love it.

Michael Chan (10:29):
Now it's really interesting because I think that
it sounds like such a reallygreat kind of like cohesive
thing at the beginning.
Right Like I want to learnthese things.
I should talk with people whoknow these things and I can
learn along the way.
But then it kind of takes on alife of its own.
You know a podcast, like youmentioned.
You're spending many hours nowof your free time to like take

(10:51):
this thing.
That was supposed to be thisvery cohesive, simple thing, and
now it's like it quickly has alife of its own.
What got you to actually likecommit to it?
That's a big piece of it.
You're like, ok, start apodcast right and you know, and
then you record one thing andthen it just languishes.
You're like, ah well, I guessthat was fine and then you move
on with your life, but youdidn't.
You like you, you've gonethrough to 299 of these.

(11:15):
Uh, so how did?
How did?
How did you break through fromlike, well, that was a fun idea.

Tim Bourguignon (11:21):
Uh, never gonna do that to actually like
breaking and producing yeah, um,I won't have a decisive answer,
but I remember a couple things.
So the first 24 no, a bit morethan that the first 30 episodes
or so where people I had met inperson, even though we recorded

(11:45):
over the air, I I knew them.
So the first, I would say thefirst 20, some of them I would
call good friends, some of themI would call really good
contacts, but really people Iknew.
And the first episode was onmarch 2nd 2016, and there's some
jumps around.
For instance, there there'salmost a year jump between June
2016 and January, not a year,six months between June 2016 and

(12:09):
January 2017, where there'sbetween episode 15, 16 and 17,
and 18, with a 17 here that Iremoved afterwards, actually.
So if you look carefully at thelist of the episodes, you won't
count 300.
But the numbering I kept it andI removed some episodes okay,
sometimes because I tried stuffand yeah and so it's really,

(12:31):
it's 300 episodes recorded.
Uh, I would say 289 published,maybe something like this, but
uh, but anyhow, um, and Iremember 2018.
I was at the conference, aconference here in the tech
conference, and somebody askedme and said, hey, I've seen, you
haven't published for a while.
And that was a mind-blowingmoment, saying what Somebody did

(12:58):
, isn't it?
Yeah, and I remember thissparking, really sparking
something, and saying, okay,shit, I have to try.
That's where I startedrecording with people I knew
less, not yet people I hadn'tmet, but people I knew less.
And then trying to reach out topeople I didn't know and seeing

(13:19):
, hey, it works, people respondto that.
And so this fear of not havinganyone to record with kind of
went away and I said, okay, nowI can actually do my own rhythm.
And so I started until 2019,beginning of 2019.
Couldn't say exactly when Iwould have to look at the
numbers.
Well, actually pretty far in2019.
Until summer 2019, every twoweeks, and there was an episode

(13:43):
every two weeks, and that wasokay every two weeks, and I was,
that was okay.
There was a reason that wasokay.
And then at some point, forwhatever silly reason, I said
let's go weekly it was the worstdecision that you ever made in
your life in a way.
In a way it was and it wasn't,um, I mean, I mean in terms of
of sleepless nights.

(14:04):
It was, yeah, my son was stillyoung, my daughter was still
young, and the third one wasn'tborn yet, and so it still had
some sleep left.
But no, I don't rememberexactly how that came to be, but

(14:26):
I think it was something likeI'm not seeing enough people, I
want more of that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, at some pointI think I did.
Show number 100 was reallyabout myself and show number 200
was more about the show, and Ithink Patrick, who interviewed
me on that one, really asked why, why are you doing this?

(14:46):
And and the the?
The honest answer I could givehim is is because it's it sparks
.
Yeah, hearing those peoplelistening to you, to the stories
, it's really fun, and I I, I'mgoing to say it Sometimes I
brought my kids to bed because Irecord quite often at night and

(15:09):
told my wife okay, I have arecording tonight, I just don't
want it, I just hey.
And then an hour and a halflater I have a big, big smile on
my face, my cheeks are hurting.
We've been laughing for 90minutes and I just can't sleep
anymore, and so I was dreadingsome of the recordings and then

(15:31):
afterwards I was on a smallcloud somewhere.
It was just rainbows andunicorns.
So really listening to thosestories has been fantastic.

Michael Chan (15:41):
Yeah, it's almost like a show that's put on just
for you, right?
Like there's something sopersonal about having a
conversation with another personand it's just the two of you,
and like that only exists inpodcasting, I think.
And it's wild that people sayyes, like you alluded to this
earlier, right.
Like it's so weird that you'relike you just put up a website,

(16:04):
you start sending audio files onan RSS feed and then now people
are like oh yeah, I'll have anhour and a half conversation
with you.

Tim Bourguignon (16:13):
Yeah, it's insane An hour and a half is is
so much and that people say yes,I wouldn't say 90% of the time,
but almost.
It's absolutely insane.
It can reach out to anyone,anyone, not anyone.
I've had some people say no, Ihad some people don't not, not
answer, but a large majoritysays yeah, hell, yeah, right
away.
And this, this is mind-blowing.

(16:33):
You don't know me for sure.
The only credentials I have isthis list here of 200 plus
people, but I guess it.

Michael Chan (16:42):
I'm curious what role do you feel like
intentionality and just thechanging world has to play in
people's eagerness to say yes?
Because I think the world haschanged pretty dramatically and
I'll kind of stage this a littlebit the world has changed very
dramatically and we really don'thave a lot of moments, like we

(17:03):
used to, where we're justsitting around talking about
stuff.
Do you feel like that hasprimed people to want to dive
into these conversations andgive you that hour and a half to
share part of their story?

Tim Bourguignon (17:19):
That's a good one.
I have no idea.
Yeah, it might be.
It might be.
When was the last time somebodylooked at you in the eyes and
say, hey, I'm gonna listen toyou for for an hour and not not
try to to sound smart, not tryto trick you, not try to to

(17:39):
speak about me, but it's gonnabe about you.

Michael Chan (17:41):
For an hour doesn't happen so much you know,
apart from a podcast, I don'tthink that's ever happened to me
.

Tim Bourguignon (17:50):
Oh, that's right, you were on the India hot
seat at some point.
Short number 214, people.
Hey, nice, nice, nice callback.
Yeah, you called yourself amule back then.

Michael Chan (18:07):
No, I have used that a lot since have I have
used that a lot since.
I have used that a lot no, butthat that's right.

Tim Bourguignon (18:15):
That's right.
Um, really being listened uh toand being able to have an
honest conversation withoutdreading something else to to
interject or or to pop up andreally have time for that,
that's really exciting.

Michael Chan (18:31):
I remember from episode 214, as you very aptly
called out, you did a wonderfuljob of preparing for the show
but then also feeling it out andjust letting it go like where
it went, and that is an art.
That is craft, that is art.
And I'm curious at what pointdid you feel like you got a hang

(18:53):
of that, or do you feel likeyou have haven't even gotten the
hang of it yet?

Tim Bourguignon (18:57):
I still don't no, I still don't.
I mean there there's um,there's chemistry, there's
definitely chemistry, and I'vedone a lot in preparing the
guests.
So you alluded to doing workbeforehand.
The work I do beforehand is notin researching the guests.

(19:21):
I research the guests enough toknow that something interesting
is going to come, to know if Ihave to poke at something
precise at some point, butthat's it.
To know if I have to poke atsomething precise at some point,
but that's it.
Just if somebody has aninteresting twist at some point,
I want to get in there and justbe sure that we're going to
talk about this, but that's it.
And the rest of the preparationthat I do is really preparing

(19:44):
the guests to be in the rightmindset, with the right
information when they show up.
So it starts weeks before withuh, you might remember a very
large email that I sent withsome questions.
It's insane.
This is just pages and pages,but it really tells you
everything that's going tohappen and at the end there are
10 questions that kind of showyou where you should be going in

(20:06):
your mind, uh, how you canreflect about your story, et
cetera.
And those are not the questionsthat I'm going to ask
afterwards.
They are to help you prepare.
And then when we startrecording or start getting
online together, we talk for 20plus minutes to get ready and to
really get a good laugh or twoor 12, really start getting on

(20:28):
the same page.
Then I get a feel of the theguest is really like and and
what they're like and and how Ican adapt to, to their way of
speaking, their way of being, ifI'm gonna have to be very
present and really ask a lot ofquestions, or if they are
volunteering so much informationthat I can just mix it up and

(20:52):
and this is very importantbecause if this goes well, the
next 45 minutes are going to bea bliss but it's it's not as
much me as getting the guests intheir right mindset to be ready
for that.
Obviously, there is some, somework from my end afterwards,
asking some kind of rightquestion at the right time.
But why I'm pushing back alittle bit is because there have

(21:15):
been some fantastic discussionswhere I didn't do anything,
where really the guests werethere and yours was worth a
little bit.
You were volunteering so muchinformation that I just picked
up and rebounded on stuff andanywhere, just going places and
there's been hard conversations.
So it was conversations wherepeople were not volunteering
stuff and where I had really toto go deep into what could I ask

(21:37):
next, and after 12 minutes wewere at the end of their story
already.
And then you have to go backand that was hard.
If I could master do's everytime then I would say, hell,
yeah, I did your question, butI'm sure I can't.

Michael Chan (21:54):
It is interesting.
I do very distinctly rememberthat being a unique aspect of
being a guest on your show wasall of that preparatory material
and it was like I say it'sunique, it was truly unique,
honestly, like most of the times, it's like you get an invite
and I'm guilty of this, it'sunique, it was truly unique.
I honestly, like most of thetimes, it's like you get an
invite and this is and I'mguilty of this too Like this is
how I did it.
Like you get an invite and thenlike maybe a reminder, like you

(22:16):
know an hour or four, like hey,just a reminder, like this is
the, this is the studio linkwe're going to be recording.
And there was something veryfun about the reflective process
of kind of preparing mentallyfor a show and I really it very
much stuck with me.
That idea of giving someone somesample questions of this is

(22:38):
where you should be mentally.
These are the types ofquestions that I'm going to ask.
I'm not going to trick you intoanything.
But also, these are not thequestions I'm going to ask.
I'm going to ask you uniquequestions in the moment and I'm
not going to tell you what theyare.
I love that.
I love that.
It's great.

Tim Bourguignon (22:56):
Yeah, I know some people really broke a sweat
at this moment saying, well, Iwon't know the question, no, you
won't, I don't know them either.
But I must say I'm asking themabout the topic they know best,
they are the the only uh,subject matter experts

(23:18):
themselves and that makes a bigdifference.
That makes a big difference.
Um, I I'm not sure.
Or maybe we could, we couldtalk about angular react or
whatever and get in therewithout you knowing the
questions.
But you speaking about yourselfis a whole different game.
It's really a whole differentlevel of knowledge and

(23:40):
introspection.
Nobody can know if you're notright or not entirely right at
that moment, and thatde-dramatizes a lot of what
we're saying.

Michael Chan (23:50):
Yeah, yeah, that's super well put.
Now I'm curious in your ownjourney with this podcast,
surely there was a point atwhich it was too much and, as
some say, like the juice wasn'tworth the squeeze right.
It was maybe too hard and,despite how much you really
enjoyed having the conversations, it was challenging.

(24:12):
I'm curious what motivated youthrough that, or what did you
learn about yourself that youthen changed, that made it
possible to continue the show?
Oh, that's a very good one.

Tim Bourguignon (24:24):
I remember one of those after 100-ish, one of
those I would have to lie whenwas it?
Just before 200, something likethis, and then kind of now.
So those three are different.
The one after 100-ish was itwas a time where it was really a

(24:46):
lot of work.
I spoke about 10 hours plusafterwards and it was really
that it was really a lot of work.
I spoke about 10 hours plusafterwards and it was really
that it was really way too muchwork.
I was doing everything on myown, not getting any help with
scripts I had created withsubpar tools, with everything,
and it was just too much.
And there came a make or breakmoment where I was okay, I

(25:07):
managed to twist it up and anddo way less work or I'm gonna
have to call it a day and that'swhere I really spoke with a
couple people um, really triedout new tools, wrote new scripts
and managed to automate much ofthe work I was doing.
I I used um no code toolsextensively to automate a lot of

(25:28):
email sending reminders.
I managed to find people whiledoing something else and I had
templates and it's just insertname there and already created
all the skeletons of what I wassending.
Then I just had to researchpeople a bit and add some key

(25:48):
elements that I found about them, because I wanted the emails to
be really tailored to peoplenot blasting emails, and that
made a difference as well.
But then the rest of the workwas just just without quotes, 15
minutes of stalking someone,finding interesting moments and
putting that in an email, and sothe work decreased quite a bit
and that really helped me getover that first hill.

(26:11):
Had I not found this, I guess100 something would have been
the first drop.
The second one was summer 2021.
Covid was there.
It was obviously ups and downs,and that's the moment where I
changed jobs and jumped on thejob I'm right now, which is a

(26:31):
director level position in astartup, so a whole different
job than what I had before, awhole different rhythm.
There I said, ok, if I don'tgive out the editing, if I don't
get help, it's going to betough, and so.
But strangely enough, yeah,yeah, I had to pay for that and
that's uh that.
That's okay.

(26:51):
That's my uh white boy uhprivilege that I paid back there
and I'm very serious about this.
Um, I know how privileged I was, and so, if I can help people,
or if I could help people withthose stories, that's yeah,
that's well paid, but so reallyI had to to fight with myself in
order to accept giving out theediting.

(27:14):
I accept not doing this on myown anymore, not being the the
not not just the sole owner, butreally the only person
responsible and accountable forthe quality of what comes out.
And this was hard.
This was really hard.
I searched for an editor for avery long time and finally found
a fantastic guy and we've had agreat relationship and it

(27:37):
worked well, very well until now.
But that was really hard givingit out and saying I'm not going
to do that on my own.
And so there is a world where Iwould have said no, not worth
it, it not giving it out, andthat's it.
And the final, the final uhhill is the one I'm on right now
.
I enjoy those discussions somuch, but I'm now in a place

(28:00):
where the whole rest is um, isis dread, is just oh boy, I have
to do that again.
Loving the discussions when I'mthere, I don't regret any
second of those recordings, butthe rest has become too much and
I guess it has to do with whereI'm with my life right now.
The kids are growing up, it's alot at work, it's a lot at home.

(28:24):
It's just becoming too much.
That's the only place you canput it.
So is it the time to uh, to uh,to announce this, and I'm not
sure you had some more questions, but I guess I guess it's the
logical uh, the logical nextstep?
Um, it's, I guess it's gonna bea hill.
I'm gonna stay on for for quitea while and uh, and this 300 uh

(28:45):
is gonna be the uh, the lastnumber for a bit.
I I'm going to move to Francenext year with the family.
That's a big adventure thatwe're going to do together and I
don't see myself continuingthis while having this new
endeavor with the family, andobviously the family is going to
be way, way, way more on thefront for everything.
My wife is German, I'm French,we live in Germany, and so now

(29:08):
we want to spend one year inFrance so that the kids can
experience France with their owneyes and not just through me.
And so it's going to be themfor one year, and I fear that
keeping the show alive for thatone year is not going to work
out.
That hill is going to be theone I'm going to be stuck for a
bit On to, and we'll see if Icome back in summer 2025, it

(29:32):
will be and restart, or if Iwill have moved and turned the
page and I'm sure I won't stayon my butt and not do anything.
I'm sure I'll start somethingnew.
I just cannot stop.
But will it be this or will itbe something else?

Michael Chan (29:48):
Well, I mean, if you have to give it up for a
reason, I do feel like focusingon family is like such an
important thing I think it'shard to describe.
So my kids right now are 13 and10.
You know, you really do at apoint start to feel your own
mortality in a sense, and youstart to feel that that like not

(30:10):
to take it there all the waythere, right, but like take it
some of the way there maybe,like you start to feel like, oh,
these, my kids are growing upfast and these could be some of
the last moments of intentionalfocus that I give to them.
And it makes that equation a lotharder because, yeah, there's
like a you know, a thousandpeople that you would love to
give that, you know, as wetalked about that hour and a

(30:32):
half of, like uninterruptedintention to, you know, there's
a time and place where it's like, hey, like I want to give all
of those one and a half hours tomy kids and make sure that they
have the best of me.
And that is a hard decisionwhen you love both.
Yes, it is.

Tim Bourguignon (30:53):
Yes, it is, and definitely my oldest is 11 now.
And I start to feel the samewhen I tell him, hey, do you
want to do that?
And he looks at me and says, no, I'm going to my friends.
It cuts Right in the face, itcuts Ouch, and no, it's really
when we manage to connect, thenI really want to be there, and,

(31:14):
and because I'm starting to seeI'm not the only interesting
stuff in his life anymore.
And then for the not that I wasever.

Michael Chan (31:23):
That was a joke, damn it, but but you were not
laughing, I mean there is apoint like I feel like they're
joke aside like there's, that isvery real, where there's
there's a transformation thattakes place, where maybe not the
only interesting part of theirlife, but like you're kind of
the only consideration, theextra, only external

(31:45):
consideration in their life, andwhen that switches, it kind of
is motivating in a way, likeit's definitely attention
grabbing, uh for sure to to belike, oh yeah, no, there's, like
there's, there's definitely a.
A time limit on this you know,the me being the only external
consideration in your life isalready passed, and so I want to

(32:06):
like soak up as much of that,that waning uh interest, as
possible before the teenagecomes.

Tim Bourguignon (32:15):
Yeah, yeah, it's true.

Michael Chan (32:17):
It's true because I've I've heard it's going to be
fun, it's interesting I'm onlyjust at the beginning of that
adventure and it's interesting,it's fascinating yeah, that's
the way to put it.
I'm curious too.
I want to say, like, as yourresponsibilities have changed,

(32:38):
right, you mentioned being moreat like a director level.
Being at a director level now,does that kind of change the
equation, I guess, on how muchvalue you get out of on the
ground developer types ofconversations.
But like when you started it,right, when you started it, you
know, eight years ago, there wasa, you were on a parallel track
, right.
So it's like you're coming,you're inviting an expert on,

(33:01):
you're kind of walking this roadtogether and then you walk away
with something that you canactually like, take away and
implement, you know, maybe rightthen.
And so I imagine that as youhave gotten to this director
level, it's kind of your owndeveloper journey has like kind
of diverged from what you'reactually doing day to day and
how quickly you can implementsome of the stuff that people
are talking about.
Is that, am I like totally offbase, or is that like something

(33:23):
that is part of the equation?

Tim Bourguignon (33:27):
It might be, but I think you're off base, uh,
and let me tell you what, andthat's that's something I'm
actually not not sure of, atleast where it comes from or if
it's really this or not.
You hear me out, when I, when Istarted the show, I I never
intended the show to be atechnical show.
I intended the show to be aboutthe daily lives and the path of

(33:50):
software developers, and so wehad technical discussions, but
it was really as one key momentin a story and not as the
backbone of the story.
And the backbone of the storyhas always been people, has
always been dealing with people,stuff in a technical context,

(34:10):
but dealing with people stuff.
The persona I had in mind veryearly for the show was young
developers starting theircareers having a couple years of
development under their belt,and where they start facing the
unknown unknowns of not being ajunior anymore, where you let go

(34:33):
of that hand that has beenguiding you since the beginning
and realize where do I do now?
What do I do?
Where do I go?
I have no idea.
And I remember this, uh, formyself being absolutely
exhilarating on on the one endand absolutely being absolutely
scared, shitless at the sametime and saying, okay, I, I am

(34:54):
responsible in deciding where Iwant to go next, and whoa.
And so that was the firstpersona I had in mind, and right
around that time, when I Istarted the show, I started
mentoring um from a mentalperspective and started
rediscovering all this throughthe eyes of the people I

(35:14):
mentored.
And so this human element andthis how do I decide, what do I
do?
Where could I go?
What's I, what's me?
That I got on the show was verymuch feeding into what I did on
my daily work, and becomingmore and more senior in my daily

(35:35):
work hasn't changed that.
I still deal with people.
I still deal with people whohave no idea where they're going
.
They can be junior or they canbe already very senior and they
still need the help in figuringthis out.
Spoiler alert I do as well, andso it's still the same
conversations, just a differentcontext.
And so all the things I tookfrom from the different shows,

(35:57):
the different episodes, reallyfeed in in my day to day work
still nowadays that makes sense.

Michael Chan (36:02):
Yeah, oh, for sure , for sure, and I love that, the
idea of kind of having allthese conversations at different
levels but then being able todistill that into working
patterns, things that actuallyyou know you carry with you
throughout your career.
I'm curious, looking back, whatare some of the ones that
seemed most or have been mosttransformative?

(36:23):
Yeah, like for you like, whatare some of the patterns that
you've?
You've 299 of these is, youknow, is is a lot, and so like,
as you kind of, what is it Mapfilter, reduce over those as as
patterns for living and patternsfor living in a, you know,
developer focused career.
What are some of the thingsthat were, and continue to be,

(36:45):
very transformative lessons fromfrom this time that were, and
continue to be, verytransformative lessons?

Tim Bourguignon (36:50):
from this time.
The first one comes very muchfrom the second career part of
the stories.
You were one of those, so youwanna count?
Yeah, I remember right and youswept at some point.
And what I realized and soagain and again and again and

(37:10):
again in all those stories, isthat it's not a restart when you
start developing or changing acareer.
It's very much of adding a newskill set, adding something new
to an already pretty full plate.
And what I've seen quite oftenis people trying to negate what
has been happening before andtell you where well you've been

(37:31):
coding for six months so you'reobviously a junior developer and
trying to see people as juniordevelopers but senior human
beings and seeing all the thingsthat they bring, connecting all
those dots, connecting all the,the sums of the things that
people did before.
And when you compare a developerwith six months under their

(37:54):
belts coming out of whateverschool or university, it's going
to be belittling but they'rebabies.
And when you compare that to a40-year-old single mom that has
been struggling with life for 20years and kids and taking care
of everything, this person isbringing life experience like

(38:16):
nobody else and they are goingto have a transformative effect
on people around them and thisis worth gold and this really
opened my eyes onto that andhelped them stay open in
connecting the dots that don'tseem to be connectable and try
to poke at people and say, hey,you've done this in the past,

(38:39):
how does that influence yourwork nowadays?
And people look at me and say,are you nuts?
And after an hour conversationthey say, oh, by the way,
actually you're right and it'sinfluencing this in this way and
this way and in this skill.
I picked it up back then.
I didn't realize that and thishas been a life lesson really,
to to see people in in theirentirety, even though we are in

(39:01):
a very narrow and and specialfield.

Michael Chan (39:04):
Um, the rest I matter, I love it.
It reminds me so much of uh.
Have you watched the the showTed Lasso on Apple plus?
Oh, yeah, okay.
It reminds me of season one andI mean I feel like they show
this off very early, so it's notreally spoilers.
But you know two of the mainplayers on the team.

(39:25):
One of them is kind of end ofcareer, kind of sunsetting.
You know a seasoned, a seasonedsoccer player, right.
And then another one's likeright at the beginning of their
career, taken off their hot shot.
All that and it shows so muchlike animosity between the two
of them, right, and so much ofthe job of the coach is to try

(39:48):
to connect those dots and belike you have so much that you
can learn from each other andthe enemy is not inside the
house, like the enemy is outthere.
Like we're supposed to beworking together and and
harnessing all of the thingsthat we have, regardless of how
much, like all this energy ismisplaced.
And um, I think that's a reallybeautiful idea, that the idea of

(40:09):
seeing everyone as seniorpeople.
Everyone is bringing some typeof experience, like whether that
is the fresh eyes of, likebringing brand new into it, or
like seeing how the you knowsometimes objectivity is like
you know, of like hey, this isjust a job, right, like this,
like I'm only doing this formoney, because, like I have to

(40:29):
to, you know, for the thingsthat I actually care about, that
matter in life that I'vediscovered over the last, you
know, 40 years of living, andboth of those are so important
and, when we can, when we seeeach other as like collaborators
, we can harness that in likereally powerful ways to like
find that that gap andunderstand, like what it is that

(40:49):
we're building, what it is thatwe're we're doing and learning.
You know, you know we can, wecan be inspired on both sides
and that's, that's a that's atremendous lesson it is, it is,
and I've been on the receivingend of this recently.

Tim Bourguignon (41:03):
Uh, we did the 360 reviews with uh, with
colleagues, and I went at itwith a very um, imposter
syndrome, yeah, sure, feeling uh, because they're all brilliant
and um, they, they, theyoutmatch me in every way and and
it's, it's fantastic.
And one of them told me, hey,but, but you're so calm, you,
you're, you're bringing the pacedown and, and this we love so

(41:27):
much, I said what it was anotherway to say you're old, but but
it's really something I had Ihadn't uh seen about myself and
and there he connected two dotsthat I really didn't suspect
would be interesting.
And so when somebody else doesthis for you and and finds out
how your past influences you asa person and influence all the

(41:51):
people, now this is fascinating.
And so really put those goggleson people and uh, and try to
see the world this way.

Michael Chan (41:58):
It's good, it's going to be transformed.
Yeah, and you know, I thinkthat's a beautiful thing that
you're bringing into.
You know, directing is theability to see the world now
from so many differentperspectives and stages in life.
Right, like, I think that'smaybe even the more important
piece, right, is that you'vebeen able to listen to so many
people talk about exactly theplace that they're in and the

(42:20):
lessons that they're learningthere, and so you know the value
of paying attention, you knowthe value of listening and being
able to coach other people inthat philosophy, to slow down
the pace, as you you mentioned,and be like, hey, you know what?
I think that there's somethingthat we could probably learn
here.
Let's just, let's just, youknow, put the brakes on a second
, listen up, open our ears alittle bit and like see what

(42:41):
happens yeah, no, that's verytrue.

Tim Bourguignon (42:44):
Yeah, you want another one.

Michael Chan (42:45):
Oh, yeah, please, yeah, yeah, as many as you got.
That's what we're here for the.

Tim Bourguignon (42:51):
The next one, um, I kind of knew about it, so
it's not.
It's not an entirely uh onethat really dropped on me, but
it was highlighted so many timesover that I just cannot ignore
it and it's the importance ofrelations.
No matter how technical we are,um, and we you know our sick,
uh, scientific brains we imaginethere is a solution for

(43:13):
everything and and there is oneanswer, a technical answer to
everything, the most importantstuff is still people and
whatever you do, it's stillpeople.
I remember a funny, uh, a funnything.
Uh, at the end of my studies inengineering school, I went to, I
attended to the major I did atthe end of my studies was in

(43:35):
system architecture and systemintegration, whatever, and year
after year they had less andless students.
The head professor said, hey,do you want to do some kind of
intervention in the classesbelow us and just tell them
about what we're doing?
It's going to be a greatmarketing effort.

(43:55):
I said, yeah, sure, let's dothat.
And the people in the room werejust poking back at but we
don't like tech and everything.
And at some point I was, I wasfed up and said, well, but it's
not about tech anyway, it'sabout people, and I saw the
glaring eyes of the of the headprofessionals.
He just shut up, but back thenI was sure of it already it's

(44:19):
all about people and the the.
What is going to make a project, make a company, is people.
What is going to break it ispeople as well.
The tech is never going to bethe problem now.
And I'm going to make a project, make a company, is people.
What is going to break it ispeople as well.
The tech is never going to bethe problem.
Now I'm going to be the old manin the room when I look back I
don't see the projects I did.
I remember that person and thatperson and that person, and I
remember playing a role in thelife of that one, and I remember

(44:41):
looking at this one on LinkedIna couple of years ago and
saying, oh, holy shit, he hasgrown so much and he did this
and they did that.
And that's what you remember,not the project.
And so building relations,being there for people, being
interested into what they tellyou this is the alpha and the
omega, and this has been said somany times in stories,

(45:02):
sometimes under the uh, thepretense of networking,
sometimes in mentoring,sometimes in doors being opened,
um.
So there's a little differentflavors to speak about it, but
it's really.
At some point I was interestedin somebody and I really give
this person time and andsomething ensued, whether that
be something good for me orsomething good for them, or or

(45:24):
just nice relationship, um,sometimes the doors being opened
which you didn't suspect andfor myself, doing this show has
opened so many doors, um, that Inever knew would be openable at
some point and uh, and and it'sbeen fantastic.
And so being selfless andlistening to people asking,
honest and genuine, it's really,it's a superpower.

Michael Chan (45:49):
Yeah, I completely agree.
I think I think that is whypeople say yes, you know.
Back to that like why?
Why do people even say yes tocoming on these, you know, these
podcasts or these shows?
I think that it is a superpowerto be able to prioritize
someone and like put someonefirst and to to listen.
I think that it is rare in theworld today to be interested in

(46:10):
what someone else has to say andthe full, like the full scope
of their perspective.
Uh, I think that's.
You know.
I think a lot of times people,you know, we see more and more
people are playing that, thattrick or that short-term game
where it's like I'm trying toget a soundbite out of you so
that I can like dunk on you forthe rest of eternity.

Tim Bourguignon (46:32):
Not guilty of having been done that any time
ever.

Michael Chan (46:39):
Yeah, it's like having genuine care for people.
You know, it seems like such afunny way that, like a podcast
would be a way of expressingcare for people.
I think it really is, and I'mso delighted that you have taken
that away from it right, thatyou have had experiences with
people more than just episodesor views or clicks or likes or

(47:01):
whatever.
You've had honest to Godexperiences and connections with
people that you then, from thatpoint forward, get to share in
what they've done and, pointforward, get to share in what
they've done and they couldlikewise get to share in what
you've done.

Tim Bourguignon (47:11):
And and one of the things that I I cherish
really is when I reach out to toformer guests and that they
right away remember and and say,oh yeah, that's a that's fun
discussion when we we talkedabout this and that.
And saying, oh yeah, that's afun discussion when we talked
about this and we talked aboutthat.
And saying, oh, holy shit, itwasn't just one hour recording

(47:32):
in your life, it left a trace.
Sometimes some guests say, wow,never seen this in this
perspective before.
After the show we have adiscussion about that and they
leave the show saying I thinkthat's again something.
Wow, that was so much and sorewarding for me as a host.

(47:53):
And this was really theconnections or the relations I'm
talking about, when we managedto not just have an interesting
conversation but grow a bit onboth sides of the interview.

Michael Chan (48:04):
Yeah, I was interviewing with someone and it
was very casual, but we had Ihad had them as a guest on the
podcast before and they had thismoment, like when we got on the
call, the interview call wait asecond was it was that podcast
the only time that we've everactually like talked, because I
feel like I feel like we havelike such a long history of of
communicating with each otherand I feel like that's the power

(48:28):
of that focus right.
It's like, oh wow, like you,you made a friend in that hour
and a half, like that's.
That's a powerfultransformation to have happen
from like perfect stranger torelationship.
It's wild, it's wild.

Tim Bourguignon (48:43):
It is, and I'm not sure if you're talking about
us right now, but I could beright, you could be, you could
be we.
We actually interacted a bit onon twitter, um, since and
before, but we haven't had thatmuch interaction.
Uh, all the way, all than this,when I searched for someone who
could, uh, who could, accompanyme on show 300, you were the

(49:07):
first one to come and say hey,we had so much fun.
We connected right away.
I said you have got to toinvite you again and I'm, I'm so
glad.
You say the hell, yeah, oh yeah, I'm there.
I'm there.
You're really, really hittingthe nail on the head with it on
the head with it.
Having so little time togetherand still be able to connect

(49:28):
deeply with people is magical.
It's really magical.
The third one I have for youit's about making your own path.
It's a more thorny one when Idescribed the beginning of the
junior path being this guidedplace where people take you by
the hand, show you the moves andyou basically repeat sets of

(49:51):
steps and if you do that well,the outcome is given.
This is how I describe being ajunior, and graduating out of
this is basically making yourown path, is realizing that the
steps you were given are not theonly way to do it, maybe in
your context are not the rightway to do it, that you know
stuff or you discover stuff thatother people don't know, and

(50:12):
that you have to start findingyour answers to those questions
on your own.
And realizing that it's yourlife, it's your path.
You decide you may be in a jobsomewhere doing Java.
Still the rest of the industryis open to you.
You can go wherever you want ifyou put your mind to it.

(50:33):
You can learn javascript byjava.
Javascript easy, easy to go fromone to the other right, yeah,
absolutely it's coffee anyway so, um, no, but if you put your
mind to it, you can do it.
Seeing this in these paths andthese new stories again and
again and again and again isreally something empowering and

(50:58):
making you understand thatyou're not stuck anywhere.
You can do it.
And this has made really left atrace or a mark on my life,
saying where do I want to go?
What would I choose to do next?
And at some, at some times, Ireally felt guilty of being in

(51:18):
the flow and just going withwherever job is taking me.
And, um, some stories reallystruck back and and pushed me
back into the no, you could betrue, you're choosing to go this
way you are choosing to staywith the flow.
It's not the way it is.
It's not.
It's not a a universal truth.

(51:40):
You're choosing this and youcould be choosing something else
.
Hearing that was, and is still,one of the things I cherish
about all those stories and thatreally influences the way I
think, yeah, no, it does.

Michael Chan (51:53):
And let me try to reframe it just to make sure
that I do understand it, becauseI think it's a very important
thing to attack from a coupleangles.
I know this is something thatI've kind of like gone through
quite a bit with my my therapistthis idea of kind of owning my
decisions, um, and not being a,not seeing them as a product of

(52:14):
the circumstances that createdthem, and I think that that is,
there's a radical ownership thata lot of us don't take over our
lives, right, like, oh well,you know, this was the
opportunity that I had, and so Iuse that as a foothold, and
then I, you know, kind of likecontinued to learn and, you know
, whatever, and so now I do thisthing that I hate there is it's
so easy to kind of like fallinto that trap, and being

(52:38):
intentional and owning yourdecision gives you power over
the outcome as well, and youknow, also it makes you
responsible for the outcome, youknow, if it's unfavorable.
So, you know, I think that'swhy we avoid accepting it a lot
of the times, but it isempowering, you know, to say

(53:01):
like you know what.
There were many circumstancesthat led to this, but also I
chose it and that gives me powerto choose the next thing as
well.
I do love that.
I think it is powerful advicethat you know that I don't see a
lot, you know, honestly, in theindustry.
There's this.
My wife gave me this phrasetoday, kind of talking about a
similar thing.
I think it was from Fred Rogers, mr Rogers' Neighborhood, and I

(53:22):
guess he kind of described hispath through life as a guided
drift.
He had the principles that hereally wanted to live by but
didn't really know how to applythem and like what the direction
was.
You know it talked about livinglife is this kind of like
guided drift where theprinciples were.
Principles were kind of like,you know, paving the way, but
like in the middle it was verykind of icy and like kind of

(53:43):
moving, you know, a little bitunstructured at times, um, but
kind of in the rear view.
You can look back and be likeno, the, the principles were the
thing that kind of like kept meon the track that I ultimately
wanted to go to, even thoughthere were moments in between
that felt undirected I love that.

Tim Bourguignon (54:00):
I love that.
And also the uh, the um, the,the fact that the drift is
neither positive nor negative.
There's no qualifier on it.
A guided drift could be a goodthing at some point and it could
be a bad thing at some otherpoint, but put in the light of
the principles, then you knowit's going in the right

(54:20):
direction and so it's good.
But I guess you have time inyour life for for drifting
because you need it, fordrifting because you cannot do
anything else.
Uh, for drifting because youhave the energy to drift now and
explore and do the are the samewords again that we're talking
a lot about, words before theshow started and um, it's, it's,

(54:42):
uh, it's playing on words butreally having different meanings
that all apply in this context.
That's a good one.

Michael Chan (54:49):
Guided drift, leave it to Fred Rogers.
That guy was great.
So I'm curious, as you getready to press the big pause
button, possibly indefinitely.
We're not saying that it isindefinite or not, we don't know
yet.
It's just like Apple there's no, stop't know yet it's just like
Apple.
There's no stop button in iTunes, it's just a pause button.

(55:10):
You're going to come back tothe music in some way or form.
So, as you get ready to pressthe big proverbial pause button,
what do you think you'll missthe most as you create almost a
new gap or space in your life?

Tim Bourguignon (55:30):
I know it has been challenging, in a good way,
to hear all those stories Ididn't suspect existed, and so I
know it has pulled me intocorners of my psyche of the
world that I didn't know existed, that I didn't suspect, and I
fear it's really a fear that I'mgonna fall back on my my bubble

(55:54):
and and miss out on on the partof the world I won't be seeing
anymore, and this is reallysomething that worries me
because I discovered to to putit very, uh, very, very bluntly
I discovered tools, I discoveredframeworks, I discovered
methods, I discovered books.
That's the very, very materialapproach.

(56:14):
I discovered philosophies.
I've discovered quotes that Ipondered for weeks.
I've discovered people that Ifollowed up afterward and really
connected with afterwards, andso I know I'm gonna miss this.
This worries me, this reallyworries me.
Again, there there is a timefor everything, and so I know

(56:37):
now is not the time for that andthen I need the headspace to do
something else, but I know thisis going to be something that I
won't be having anymore andthat won't be playing the role
it's played in my life for thepast almost eight years.
Yeah, it's a big change.

Michael Chan (56:56):
Yes, it is.
I do hope that I can encourageyou that kind of on that idea of
like principles and you knowthe guided drift and entering
spaces where you don't reallyhave.
You know, you don't knowexactly what it's going to look
like.
I think this is who you are.
You know the desire to seek outinformation and perspective and

(57:18):
like and experience the world,not just through your experience
and your five senses, butthrough others as well.
I don't think that that'sanything that you can put on
pause, you know.
I think that that transcendsand I do hope that you know in
those times we're like, oh man,did I make the wrong choice?
You know, whatever, am Imissing out on some really great

(57:40):
wisdom?
I do hope that you rememberthat this is just.
You know the show is only anexpression of the creator, and
that you remember, you know howthis is.
You know this is your principle, right Like.
This is who you are to live ina way that is open and curious
and excited about discovery.

Tim Bourguignon (58:04):
Amen to that.
No, really, really, this issomething I know, I do, I uh, I,
I do, I do, I do me.
That's how you say, it's theway I am, and so this won't
change.
But I won't get the exposure.
I won't get the, uh, theexposure to that many different

(58:26):
people.
Um, I, I will continue to be tobe curious about the people I
meet, um, but I will necessarilynot be meeting as many diverse
people anymore.
Well, I'll be meeting frenchpeople, but, uh, it's been
germans only for 20 years, sofrench is good, uh, but no, I
won't be.

(58:46):
I will be in the social circlesI'm in and it's going to be hard
to get out of them.
I'm going to meet people fromdifferent backgrounds, probably
through the kids, not onlytechnical people and meet a lot
of other parents, etc.
So I'm going to get my fairshare of discoveries and human
relationships there.
But for the more career-appliedconnections it's going to be

(59:10):
lacking a bit.
But maybe I'm going to realizethat the tech part was just a
flavor.
I can get that learning fromsomewhere else with a different
flavor, and that's going to beapplicable as well.
Very well.

Michael Chan (59:25):
What an adventure right.

Tim Bourguignon (59:32):
Yes, an adventure up to now and then a
different one, uh, starting, andthat's really how we, uh we
sold it to the kids, saying, hey, we're gonna go on an adventure
for you, and it's gonna be anadventure for each and every one
of us uh, your mom, who's notspeaking so much french, and she
, she, she speaks well, butnever fluent and never been
there.
And the kids, who sometimesspeak well and sometimes
struggle.
And and for me, who hasn't beenin France for 20 years, and so

(59:56):
it's an experience for everyonethat's so exciting.

Michael Chan (01:00:00):
Well, I guess my last, you know my last question
just burning question here.
Uh, you didn't prepare.
Yeah, my last question, justburning question here is Uh-oh,
uh-oh Good you didn't prepare mefor that, yeah.
Is there one thing that you'vealways wanted to say on air, but
maybe you have been too afraidto knowing that there was
another episode that you weregoing to have to say?
And if so, are you ready to sayit now?

(01:00:26):
Oh boy, Something I've beenafraid also doesn't have to be
afraid.

Tim Bourguignon (01:00:32):
I mean something that you've wanted to
say, so yeah, so I say hey, youcould have reached out a little
bit more come on people that isthe podcaster's plate, right

(01:00:53):
like that's what ends all shows.
I didn't even know you werelistening out there I have the
numbers so I know you're there,but but come on, would have just
just torn your face off to sayhello.
I have the numbers so I knowyou're there, but come on, just
turn your face off to say hello,oh, that's, if you don't get

(01:01:16):
the joke.
It's really hard to connect withlisteners.
It is, and you get someconnections once in a while, but
it's not even a percent of thelisteners, it's 0.0 something
and it's a lonely job.
It's a really lonely job.

(01:01:38):
And when I got some emails orsome connections saying, hey, I
listened to this episode and Igot that out of it and and that
was great or I don't understandwhy you went this way and some
questions, that's so much mademy week.
You have no idea.
Yes, yeah, so yeah, that's,that's one of the hard things.

(01:02:00):
So don't reach out anymore.
There won't be any moreepisodes.

Michael Chan (01:02:08):
That is a good one .
I would not have thought aboutthat, but that's really great.
I completely empathize.
People over the last couple ofyears have been like, oh, why
did you stop podcasting?
I was like I didn't know youwere listening.

Tim Bourguignon (01:02:32):
I'm actually looking forward to that.
No reason to pass me people forthe thing I said in the last
two minutes.
I loved it when you reached outand it was absolutely fantastic
.
And if this is a closure foryou as well those 300 episodes
just reach out and tell me whatyou picked out of it, what you

(01:02:52):
learned.
That would that would make myday, yeah.

Michael Chan (01:02:56):
What is the best way to for them to to do that?
Cause I want, I want nobody tohave any excuse to not just say
even just a thank you, right?
Just thank you for the show.
Just you know, let's you forthe show, just you know, let's
you know.
I, you know, I know I'm a guesthere, but I'm gonna, you know,
I'm gonna, I'm just gonnaoverstep and be like hey, if
you're listening to this, writea damn note.

Tim Bourguignon (01:03:17):
Well, I don't do twitter anymore, so don't
reach out on twitter, um, butthe easiest way is info at dev
journey.
But info it's email.

Michael Chan (01:03:26):
I guess everybody kind of does you know every dev
has to have an email, right likethat's just it, to register for
something.
Use that one email we know yougot and just say exactly info at
dev journey dot info that's uh,that's.

Tim Bourguignon (01:03:44):
That's where, where I'm easiest to be here, to
be found.
I'm on masteron as well.
You can find me on the socials,everything if it's easier for
you.
But the uh info atdevjourneyinfo.

Michael Chan (01:03:53):
Oh, hey, you know, I just want to say thank you
for thinking of me for, uh, youknow, this last, this last
episode before your pause.
Um, it's, it's been an honor.
I do feel like we know eachother so much better than the

(01:04:15):
two conversations that we've hadnow, the three combined hours
that we've spent together and,yeah, I really appreciate you, I
appreciate your approach, Iappreciate your philosophy,
what's brought you to all ofthis, and it's been an honor to
just hear more about what it'smeant to you.
It's your show, so I'll let you.

Tim Bourguignon (01:04:30):
I'll let you close it.
My cheeks are hurting and I'mnot going to be able to sleep
after it, but, like I saidbefore, the way I usually close
the show was was to say it wasalways.
This has been another episodeof Debra's Journey and we'll see
each other next week.
We'll see each other sometime.
I would say Thank you so mucheveryone.
Thank you, michael and uh.

(01:04:50):
Have a good one everyone, andwe'll call it a day there.
Outro Music.