July 22, 2023 • 55 mins
Jesus is often seen as a religious figure, but are there lessons we can learn from Him about leadership and management?
International leadership coach Sharon Seivert joins Dan, Suzana, and Flavio for a conversation about Jesus' leadership style and insights we can gather for our day-to-day lives.
Links:
- The Superpower of Balanced Leadership in Unbalanced Times: 6 Powers that Make You the Kind of Leader People Fearlessly Follow Through Good Times and Bad - Sharon's book at Amazon.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dan Assisi (00:13):
Hello, everyone, and welcome to episode 38 of Spiritist
Conversations, where we sit down withfriends and have great conversations about
everything from a Spiritist perspective.
My name is Dan Assisi, and today I amjoined here by the Uncomparable Susana
Simoes and the ever happy Flavio Zanetti.
(00:35):
How are you guys doing?
Suzana Simões (00:38):
Hey Dan.
Hey Dan.
Hey Flavio.
Good to see you guys.
Flavio Zanetti (00:44):
Likewise.
Likewise.
Good to see everyone.
Dan Assisi (00:47):
Yes, it's really great to see you guys.
We're in different partsof the planet today.
Flavio is in Italy.
Susana is holding thefort in the US for us.
I'm in the Bahamas.
And we're just stretching ourspiritual wings today and, connecting
virtually from different places.
Very excited to see you guys.
It's been a while.
It's always reassuring and uplifting forme to have a conversation with you guys.
(01:09):
And today I hope we're goingto have a great conversation.
But before we introduce our guest, Ijust want to remind folks who might
be watching this on different channelson the web that if you make your way
to the Spiritist Conversation YouTubeor Facebook channels, that's the
best way for you to interact with us.
Sometimes because we broadcast todifferent places, we don't get to see all
(01:32):
the comments that you might be placing.
And so we're really happy to haveyour interaction, so feel free.
to come and interact with us.
We love being with you.
And if you're here,just drop us a comment.
Let us know where you're coming fromand pop in your questions and be
part of the conversation as well.
So Zanna, Flavio, are youguys ready to dive into a
interesting and different topic
Flavio Zanetti (01:53):
today?
Absolutely.
This is an interesting one.
I'm on it.
Yes.
Suzana Simões (01:57):
Yes.
Yes.
I'm very excited to see what'sgoing to come out of it.
And what can we take to our dailylives after this conversation?
Dan Assisi (02:07):
Great.
So let's go ahead and bring Sharon.
Sharon, thanks for being with us.
Sharon Seivert (02:15):
I feel like I've been invited to a party,
a Friday night party here.
Flavio Zanetti (02:21):
Welcome, Sharon.
It's good to see you.
Dan Assisi (02:23):
Yeah, we're what you asked for sharing to be aware what you asked for.
That's all I'm gonna say.
But Sharon, we're reallythrilled to have you here today.
Sharon has been who in contactwith us for such a long time.
Now we've been talking aboutdifferent ways of collaborating and
finding a way to get her voice herein Spiritist conversations too.
(02:45):
And I think this is a perfect episodefor Sharon to come in and we'll let
her talk a little bit about herself.
But among other things, she's aninternational leadership coach people.
So to talk about leadership and Jesus,I think that would be great to have such
a wonderful feed perspective on this.
But Sharon, I won't do you justice.
Tell us a little bit aboutwho you are and what you do.
Sharon Seivert (03:08):
Okay, well, I am a member of the Boston Area Spiritist
Center where I see Flavio on manyoccasions and Daniel and Susanna
occasionally when you come to town.
It's interesting how things havecome full circle because it's my
(03:28):
International leadership coachingthat brought me to spiritism, which is
that I had a just spectacular clientby the name of Thais Moriyama from
Brazil, who after we completed ourwork together and she decided where
she wanted to go in her career andleadership herself that she sent me as
(03:50):
a thank you all these spiritist books.
And I Picked up the first one,which was, uh, Renunciation.
I chose from the many books she sent me.
She and her mother decided, actually,I've worn this as this is a gift from
Thais and her mother of the Black Virginwho saved those fishermen in Brazil.
And once I started reading Renunciation,I I just started one page after the
(04:14):
other and could not stop reading.
I read it just cover to cover.
And I was, landing, 10 pointOlympic, land in spiritism.
And I have never looked back.
That was about five years ago.
So interestingly, we, I've come around,I've come to the circle here where
we're talking about what brought meinto spiritism in the first place.
(04:36):
So I was thinking about that when Iwas coming in today, you know, this is.
This is great how this has come around.
Dan Assisi (04:44):
That is awesome.
That is fantastic.
This personal connection is somethingthat I think many of us can attest to.
I think many people find spiritism throughthis personal connection with somebody
because let's be honest, spiritism isnot as widely well known as different
philosophies or bodies of knowledgeor even religions out there, right?
Sharon Seivert (05:02):
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So it has been so that's whyit's so exciting for me to be on
this conversation today with you.
I just you know, I'm so gratefulfor the thousands of things that
Spiritism has given me and theperspectives it has given me.
And actually when I was writingthis last book Genesis helped
me inform it and my studies withthe Spiritist group helped me.
(05:26):
You know, ask different questions.
It's it's very integralto my life and my work.
So it seems like you're an author as well?
Yeah.
Oh, yes.
I am an author of a series of books.
The most recent one is calledThe Superpower of Balanced
Leadership in Unbalanced.
So here we are.
Dan Assisi (05:48):
A very appropriate title, a very appropriate title.
Sharon Seivert (05:51):
In which people say a lot of, Amen, sister.
Yes, here we are.
Yes.
Dan Assisi (05:58):
Great.
So, the reason why we wanted you heretoday, Sharon, besides the fact that
you're awesome is that, we were reallytrying to look at this incredible
figure, Jesus Christ, which, I personallythink is often misunderstood or under
understood in many different ways.
We've made him to be a religious figure.
But in many different ways, there's somany wonderful lessons that we can take
(06:22):
from his leadership and how he handleddifferent things and how he saw the
world, who he talked to, how he wentabout things, doing things that sometimes
I think that we don't notice because weput him in a small little box, right?
And and I thought it'd be great to havea conversation about his leadership
style, especially in this difficult timesthat we live in where we are having a
(06:43):
really tough time talking to each other.
Being kind to each other,accepting different perspectives
and different approaches.
I think that if we live out theretoday in the world, that's all we do.
I think we can agree with that piece.
And this is a topic that is really cool.
About 20 years ago, notthat I want to date myself.
I came across this interesting bookcalled Jesus CEO by Lauren Beth Cope.
(07:07):
That was published in 1996.
And I really thought it was likean eye opening piece because it
was like, Oh my God, I had neverthought about Jesus that way.
And so I could not helpbut think about that today.
And so really excited to haveyou here to talk about that.
Excellent.
Yeah.
Flavio Zanetti (07:22):
I think it's totally you, but most people have not
thought about Jesus in that way.
Right Dan?
I mean, it's, uh, it's people usuallyare, they think about Jesus from
a religious connotation and theystop right there and everybody.
Juxtapose, right, all his teachings,all his leadership examples in order to
really study or look into from that angle.
(07:43):
So you're not alone, and I think stillmost people, when they automatically see
or read the word Jesus, they associatethat with the religious figure, not so
much so with the in the leader that Jesuswas or still is for a lot of us, right?
Suzana Simões (08:00):
Yeah, we tend to, um, to keep Jesus in this very, Narrow
perspective and today we're goingto talk about leadership, but we
could also think of him, his roleas educator, his role as a doctor.
and physician, right?
(08:21):
So there are many ways in which we cango way beyond the religious figure and
bring into, other roles that relate to oursociety and our living and learn from him.
So it will be interesting to talkabout this today, but certainly
(08:42):
there is room for more in the future.
Sharon Seivert (08:45):
Right, right.
When I talk about the superpowerbalance leadership, I think Jesus is
just probably, I'm probably the bestimage person that you can imagine,
because he was so fully human.
He was, he, he and he embodiedall of our sort of gave examples
of all of our best traits.
(09:06):
You talk about him as a, asan educator, and as a healer.
And all of those are aspectsthat we have of ourselves.
And if you think about him in thatparticular way, he leads it with
all these different dimensions.
It's so he's so multidimensional.
And one of the things I love thatspiritism has brought to me is this
(09:29):
total reframing of how who Jesus was,you know, the governor of the planet.
He's not this one dimensionalkind of person who came to earth.
So I love thinking about him inall the ways you're describing.
Dan Assisi (09:42):
Or an absent leader, right?
Because sometimes we think that ifwe have the perspective that he came
once and then we're still waitingfor the second coming of Christ,
it's almost like, where has he been?
Is he an absent leader?
How can a good leader be absent?
Probably not.
Right.
So I think he's a lotcloser than we imagined.
I think maybe it's a way for us tojump in there and say, what do you guys
(10:05):
think about Jesus as a leadership model?
What is it that jumps out at
Flavio Zanetti (10:11):
you?
I think the very, the big one that comesto me is about server leadership, right?
So he was the serverleader per excellence.
And if you look at a lot of businessstudies show nowadays that servant leaders
are way more effective than leaders thatdon't play the role of servant leadership.
(10:31):
I mean, we have severalexamples of servant leaders.
Obviously, the one that really comesto mind is Abraham Lincoln, right?
One of the first ones.
We have, for example, Steve Jobs and somany others that really played that role.
Obviously, not as good asJesus, but played the role.
Of servant leadership that made it made achange or made an impact into the modern
world, so to speak, they can really makesome connections with servant leadership.
(10:54):
That's the way at least to me.
That's what comes to mind right away.
Dan Assisi (10:58):
Flavio, do you really think Steve Jobs was a servant leader?
Flavio Zanetti (11:03):
I do believe so.
I do believe so.
If you read his biography,his autobiography.
A lot of the things that he didwas towards helping, enabling
these people, pushing these peopletowards success, and maybe not
100% of the time, obviously, right?
But the a good chunkof it, I think it was.
Dan Assisi (11:20):
I'll take your word on that.
It's the first time I think ofSteve Jobs as a servant leader,
but I think you do have a point.
Sharon Seivert (11:28):
When I think about that servant leadership of Jesus, one
of the things that I think about isthat he had such love, such compassion.
He felt people's pain.
He went out of his way to help heal them.
So he was a, what I calla relational leader.
It's one of the six powers that he had.
The other thing he did as a servantleader, a relational leader,
(11:50):
is he established a communitythat has lasted millennia.
I mean, think of what he does and howhe has called us to serve other people.
And he's called us to dowork for the social good.
And that is, of course,one of his major messages.
But he is a relational orservant leader par excellence.
(12:11):
I try to when I establishgroups of leaders, one of the
things I try to do is community.
And imagine what he did toestablish a community that
served each other for millennia.
I mean, wow.
Dan Assisi (12:26):
Wow.
Well, and I'm gonna piggyback on thatone sharing because not only did he
create a community, But he went out ofhis way to get people with different
backgrounds in that community, right?
His initial team wasnot homogeneous, right?
We had fishermen, we hadtax collectors, right?
(12:47):
We had all kinds of differentgroups of people, some of which
obviously knew each other.
But some of which perhaps werenot very welcome at first.
So I love that he built that diverse team.
We're talking about diversity,equity and inclusion nowadays,
Sharon Seivert (13:01):
right?
He
Dan Assisi (13:02):
was the OG.
He was the OG on that piece, right?
He was the D& E
Flavio Zanetti (13:09):
master.
Yeah, the diversity andinclusion and equity master.
Yeah, I
Suzana Simões (13:13):
love
Sharon Seivert (13:14):
it.
Yeah, and went way out of hisway and then had his disciples go
way and way and way out of theirway to reach across the world.
Dan Assisi (13:24):
Yeah, and to Susana's point about the educational piece, I find
it hard to distinguish his leadershipwithout the education piece, right?
He empowered others.
He has not left us witha single written work.
He has not left us with anythingother than his words that we
actually hear through others.
(13:44):
So he really empowered this teamof people that then created other
teams of people and who have beenspeaking to us for millennia.
I find that incredibly breathtakingin many different ways.
But Stu, where do you thinkyou're going to jump in there?
Suzana Simões (13:59):
No.
Yes.
When you said in power, I thinkthat's you know, to me, um, when
I think about Jesus from thisperspective, I think about someone who
embrace, heal, dignify, and empower.
Those are the four ideas that Iactually think about and try to
(14:22):
bring to my own day to day life.
So when I'm dealing with myteam, With my employees is okay.
These employees coming to me what isthis employee needs at this moment,
he needs to be seen, he needs to beacknowledged, he needs to be healed
from conflict, from, stress, fromwhatever, is he ready to be empowered?
(14:49):
Right.
To feel that he is really valued.
So I, to think about when he multiplythe bread and the fish, he attends the
immediate need of the crowd, but thenafter that most immediate need is met,
he goes on to, to teach and to empowerpeople and to tell about all the talents
(15:14):
that you had, you were like, you werethe salt and and get them To to fulfill
their missions from that point on.
So I have those steps within me and it'ssomething that I try, obviously we don't,
we're not always far from being like it'sa practice, it's a journey, obviously.
(15:35):
Uh, but those are references that I,I hold in myself, uh, for the work
that I do every day from, you know,from thinking of Jesus as a leader.
Dan Assisi (15:48):
Yeah, I love that Susana.
Yeah, I love that.
Go
Flavio Zanetti (15:51):
ahead.
Flutter.
No, I love that too.
And if I could maybe unpack the ideaof Jesus as a servant leader, right?
In my head, it all begins withcare because servant leaders,
they care for their teams.
They care for their peeps, right?
So to speak.
So he cared about not only the 12disciples, but everybody that he
was Really leading, right, towardsa new life, towards the right?
(16:13):
A new, you know, reality, so to speak.
He set the example foreverybody to follow, right?
Hey, walk on my shoes, right?
I'm the path, the way, and the truth.
He set the example.
He always did the right things.
Not only for himself,but for others, right?
And he created the right mindset,not only for the disciples, but for
everybody that wanted to follow him.
(16:34):
The good thing about, the one thingthat really catches my attention when
I look at Jesus leadership examples...
He allowed people to fail.
That's a very important one to me, right?
If you want, teams tobe successful, right?
Teams to work hard, to make,a great impact into what they
do, they have to fail, right?
Failure means, finding differentways to do different things, right?
(16:56):
And he allowed folks to fail, which to mewas amazing if you think about it, right?
And he also empowers
Suzana Simões (17:02):
Can you, can you, can you bring us an example of that?
Maybe for people who are listening to us.
It may not be so clear.
Flavio Zanetti (17:11):
Great, great point, Suzana.
So, a lot of times, if you're anew leader, right, the automatic
reaction of leading somebody orasking somebody to do something that
that person doesn't know 100% howto do it, it's taking too much time.
Let me do it myself, right?
He never did that.
He asked others.
He asked disciples.
He asked, you know, several instanceswhere he asked folks to go and do things.
He never really took the reins of...
(17:33):
Doing, but rather he allowed folksto go out, try it out, fail, come
back and you give the lesson,you give the teachings, right?
And several opportunities he did that.
To me, that's a magicleadership example, right?
Dan Assisi (17:47):
Yeah, and I can jump in there if you're looking for a passage, for
instance, I remember in John when Jesustells Peter, before the crow, right?
Sorry, before the roostercrows, you rooster crows
disavow me three times, right?
Hey, I'm calling you out.
You're going to deny me three times.
And he was still okay with that.
And after that happened and Jesus andPeter came back quite beat up, right?
(18:11):
Emotionally and obviously psychologically,Jesus then picks him up again and
he asked, I think you might rememberthis different passage that I don't
remember exactly which, um, whatare the line, but he's, he tells
Peter, Peter, do you love me?
And Peter says, yes, of course I do.
Then take care of my sheep.
And then he asks, Peter, do you love me?
And Peter goes.
(18:31):
Yes, of course, teacher, I dothen take care of my sheep and
then he asked for the third time.
Do you love me, Peter?
And Peter then gets it, right?
He disallowed.
Disavow Jesus three times and Jesusbrought this question three times to
say, here's your way back from your ownguilt and self consciousness, right?
(18:52):
So work hard.
So I love that about him.
I think they did a lot of that,but I also want to double click on
something that Susanna said, whichI think was really cool about the
communication piece, because what really.
inspires me a lot aboutJesus among other things.
But in this particular area ishis ability to what we call in
the education field differentiate.
(19:12):
He's able to speak to somebody atone level because he knows what that
person needs, and he's able to speakto somebody else at a different level
because he knows what that person needs.
So we have these great speechesof him talking to the crowd.
And we have this great dialoguesof him talking individually to
people in different pieces withexactly what a person needs.
(19:35):
And that is just an incredible thingthat sometimes nowadays, I think you
get lost sometimes in leadership.
Because I think people feel likethey either have to do this great
speeches or write this greatmemo or do this great thing.
But Jesus was able to know how to relate.
Depending on the person's need and
Suzana Simões (19:54):
that was really great.
And that is where leadershipand education kind of meet.
Because another good example is whenhe talks about the kingdom of heaven.
So there are many, many times wherehe's going to explain about the
kingdom of heaven to the people.
(20:16):
But he will do it in very differentways depending on who he's talking to.
So, for the farmer is the treasure thatis hidden under the ground, for the
fish, the fisherman is the fish underthe water, for, and so forth, is the
yeast for the woman who is baking at thehouse, so it's it's really it's quite
(20:40):
significant his capacity to communicateAnd two, one of the things that I think
is it's very, um, important is how, andwe're talking about relational leadership.
And that calls for horizontality.
So it's being horizontal youknow, in the relating and
(21:03):
meeting people where they are.
But when you are a true leader andyou are very centered on your role
and what you can do for your team,even though you are horizontal
in the relating, you never lose.
Your proper place, so tospeak, in the chain of command.
(21:29):
I don't know if I'm being clearbecause a lot of leaders want
to be respected by imposing.
And
Sharon Seivert (21:38):
when
Suzana Simões (21:39):
you are naturally connected with this role of
loving and leading and enabling.
You don't have to fight for respect.
Respect is just a natural consequence.
People want to
Sharon Seivert (21:56):
look up to you.
I'd love that.
Yeah, I love that.
And I would like to piggyback on thatimmediately because what I hear from you
is the issue of power versus force andJesus was the ultimate sort of force.
self powered leader.
He did not have to force.
He attracted the people tohim who wanted to learn.
(22:20):
So the, um, so that's avery, very important thing.
So he had this natural power whereverhe stood was the hub of his power and
people came to him because of that.
So there was no force.
In him, right?
And that allowed him to stand up to theliterally the political forces of his day.
(22:41):
And the one more thing I'd like tosay to piggyback on your teaching
thing is I am so impressed as Ilook at it about how he could teach
anyone according to their level ofunderstanding and their desire to learn.
And so.
We have the parables and thenKardec came along and, gave us
more of this whole body of work.
But he, people would take whatthey needed from the parables
(23:05):
according to what they understood.
So he spoke to us when he was here.
In exactly the language that we needed.
And that's an extraordinary thing.
It's like reading one of those booksthat's for children, but it's really
for adults, you know, we have alot of examples in that literature.
And that's, I think the way he.
(23:26):
He taught and he inspired and so youcould take every time I read something and
Daniel you're such a master of this thatyou go into a story and you talk about
it and I'm going well I didn't see that.
I didn't notice that.
Dan Assisi (23:40):
Oh, please Sharon.
Keep going.
Keep going.
That's good
Flattery will get you everywhere, Sharon.
Keep going.
Sharon Seivert (23:51):
Yeah, so that's a, that's a form of genius and of power
being able to interpret, to translate,to the level of the person you're
speaking with it's the greatest teacher.
What can you say?
Flavio Zanetti (24:03):
Yeah.
I think the great analogy thatI've heard one, not on Jesus,
but I'd love to connect with him.
It's someone that can reallyspeak at the boardroom level.
All the way down to theboiler room level, right?
Going up and down, depending on whatlevels he was talking to, right?
Being through parables.
(24:24):
To me, since Dan mentioned about thecommunication style, to me, one of the
most important traits, or traits, Ishould say, of a great leader is the
ability to ask very good questions.
Yes.
And to me, Jesus asked...
Amazingly good questions, right?
That if you don't stop to share, right?
If you don't stop, if you don'tstop to think about it, it's,
(24:48):
uh, some of them get lost.
So, for example, if you remember when theblind beggar comes to talk to him, Right?
What?
What?
What's his question?
What do you want me to do?
Right?
Dan Assisi (25:01):
He asked that of everybody.
What would you have me do?
What do you want me to do?
Really?
He's a natural coach.
Flavio Zanetti (25:08):
Dude!
I'm blind!
I'm sick!
What else?
But really?
Is that?
Is that what you want me to do for you?
Heal you and you go.
So I think asking a very good questionsto me spoke, I mean, speaks very highly
of how Jesus was well connected with needsfrom everybody that he served, right?
(25:29):
He always spoke the truth, no matterwhat he, who he talked to, right?
He always used the truth, not only tohurt or never hurt people, but to really
set the tone of a conversation, right?
So he always engaged.
In the very productive conversation,every opportunity that he had, he let,
he left somebody bad when that person,before that person saw him, right?
(25:52):
And that should be, as spiritists thatwe all are, should be all of our major,
our math, our most aspiration, right?
to leave somebody better than before weencounter an individual of that person.
To me,
Dan Assisi (26:05):
I would say, I would say even not, that's not even a spirit testing,
that's a human being thing, right?
As human beings, we should just dothat leave people better than we found
them but Sharon, taking what Flaviosaid, let's go back to something you
said, which I think was really power.
You talked about six powersthat Jesus had, right?
Could you talk to us a littlebit about your insights
Sharon Seivert (26:23):
into that?
And you guys have touchedon on a bunch of them.
And, uh, so the, in the, in the balanceleadership program, as we look at
Jesus through this lens the image thatI like people to have is the center
in the four directions, the compass.
So think of the compass as assomething that we have in our hands.
It's our native birthright.
This is what we have.
(26:45):
Because we're human.
And so as human, we have these sixpowers, which, of course, Jesus
exemplified in their highest forms.
So the first power isour core at our core.
Who are we?
And who are we at our best?
And what are our gifts thatwe need to bring to the world?
to leave the world a better place,to make the world a better place.
(27:07):
And do we own these and bring these out?
And this is what I callauthentic leadership.
And we could talk for hours aboutthe authenticity of Jesus and
the values that he instilled inus and then has had us carry on.
The second is inspirational leadership.
When we talk about the teaching, whenwe talk about continuing to learn and
(27:28):
raising our hope and having to see adifferent world, envision a different
world and let's make it happen.
Let's bring us all there.
The third is motivational leadership,and that is that's doing it.
That's acting.
So not only do we have some good ideas,but We have to show up at the center
and we have to help out and we haveto act a day in a daily basis with the
(27:50):
people who just frankly annoy us a lot.
And so he's always out theredoing these actions that make
the world a better place.
The fourth is the relational or servantleadership, which we've discussed
extensively of which he was obviously amaster and, and I, and an idol for us.
The fifth is managerial leadership.
And I think Jesus did.
(28:12):
I mean, he paid attention to detailsand he took, looked at the comfort of
the people around him and he did, thosethings to take care of our human needs.
He didn't dismiss that.
I mean, look who he was and yethe didn't make that small, you
know, he paid attention to that.
And the sixth is, of course, Themiracle worker, the systems worker, the
(28:33):
context, the bringing of the divine.
How are we connected to the divine?
How do we make miracles in our own livesby putting all of these things together?
So that's the approach that I take.
And when we own our powers, when westand in our power, as opposed to what
Susanna was talking about, which isforce, when we stand in our power,
(28:53):
we will create miracles and that.
Lifts everyone up, and I think that'sour responsibility as Spiritists.
How do we lift everyone?
Around us up.
Suzana Simões (29:05):
Love it.
Love it.
I love it.
I love it.
All right.
Dan Assisi (29:11):
That was a show.
Everybody.
We love it.
See you.
See you next week.
Sharon Seivert (29:17):
And there's so many wonderful examples when we that we can
look to about well, how do I do this?
How can I be this kind of a greatleader in this particular power?
Well, let's take it over.
Dan Assisi (29:29):
Is there one or two that you think are more
important than the other ones?
Sharon Seivert (29:35):
The one that's most important for you to develop
is the one where you sort of havea uh, you're not paying attention.
So, for example, if I'll give myself,I am the poster child for one of these.
And one of the reasons I wrote this bookis so I could get better in these things.
And so I'm one of those writers thatsays, I'm not doing this very well.
(29:56):
I have to figure this out.
And so then I write totry and figure it out.
So for example, the power that isthe weakest for me is the managerial
leadership or the structure element.
I always have to work extra hard at that.
But when I do, when I assume my
(30:19):
And I have, when I accept responsibilityfor that, and I do all those structural
things, which is taking care of thefinances and making sure the legal
documents are in order and and doing,and going into the HTML and making
sure the online reports are working,when I do those things, which is
like chewing nails for me, okay?
(30:39):
I.
I have pumped up that tirethat was not working so well,
and my car is rolling along.
So, each one of those, we were giventhis sense of what it is to be human,
and we need all of these things.
So, knowing that has made me away better leader, because I'm
paying attention to all of them.
(31:00):
And if you can think about it likea car on the road, and all the tires
have to be pumped up sufficiently.
Just enough so you can go.
You will have your preferences.
But I think if we lookat Jesus he did them all.
He was a really full leader, a full humanbeing, and he showed us it was possible.
(31:20):
He showed us this idealthat we can move to.
Okay.
Dan Assisi (31:26):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that's what I think is so uniqueabout him in many different ways, right?
It's the fact that he was so well roundedand so great in many different ways.
Obviously I think we all heard of thatpassage of the woman who's going to
get stoned for being adulterous, right?
And then he turns around and hedoes things on the, on the ground
and eventually everybody leavesand he turns to her and says,
(31:47):
This woman who has condemned you?
No one.
She says then you're free.
But then he tells her, and,but go and sin no more.
So he's saying, Hey, we understand you.
We're being empathetic.
Everybody has made a mistake before.
It's okay.
You are off the hook today, so to speak.
But, but don't do it again.
(32:08):
Yeah.
So there's also this powerfulmixture of tenderness.
Right.
Thank you.
and force, right?
Or, or, or whatever youwant to call that, right?
Of, of rightfulness, uh,righteousness, I should say.
That I think is really touching.
It's like there is thefeminine and the masculine.
There is the, a well roundedapproach that I think is so
rare for us to find nowadays.
Sharon Seivert (32:31):
That's the balanced aspect of it is that he didn't
leave as it were any stone unturned.
If we're going to continue with thisparticular story, he you know, he did
both of these things and I love yourcomparison of the male and the female,
because here's another example whereI feel he had extraordinary balance.
And if you look at the symbol that Iuse, which is the center in the four
(32:55):
directions, that actually is encoded.
both male and femaleleadership at a in a balance.
So I think he exemplified that inthe tenderness, you said, and in the
strength of no nonsense kind of strength.
Dan Assisi (33:13):
Yeah.
And by male and female, wewant to be clear, right?
These are by no waygender specific traits.
We were just talking about traditiousanimus and anima that young brought forth.
Y different ways.
Yin yang and like thisdifferent opposites.
But I think that this balance is areally powerful thing in general for us.
And what else jumps out at you guysthat Jesus did so well that stuck
(33:34):
with you when it comes to dealingwith people and leading with people?
If you don't, if you don'tspeak, I will, but you know, I'm
trying to be polite here, people.
Sharon Seivert (33:46):
I, I, I, there must be something wrong with Flavio.
You're trying to be a good leader, huh?
Yeah, I try Flavio's audiobecause he's in power right now.
Dan Assisi (33:55):
You know, we got to say this, Flavio, if you're watching
this, you'll notice that Flavio hasa little bit of a darker background.
Flavio is doing some reallygreat stuff here today.
He's in Italy.
There is a blackout where he is.
He's running on battery on borrowed time.
So thank you, Flavio.
For for making it happen.
If I were to disappear,
Flavio Zanetti (34:13):
I wouldn't have lost this for anything.
I wouldn't have missed this for anything.
It's already sadly my time here.
So it's 12 38 a.
m.
Oh, oh my gosh.
He's back.
The life is back.
The miracle.
You just, you just, you justmentioned this and everything's back.
Look at
Dan Assisi (34:29):
this.
The light is back.
You're flying there.
Look at that.
But there goes our excuse, but theregoes the excuse of just being able to
kick Flavio out if we don't like whathe says and pretend it was a blackout.
Flavio Zanetti (34:39):
So cannot kick me out, no, no.
What I wanted to say is, I wantedto go back to what you mentioned,
right, that Jesus is the idealmodel for not only a leader, but the
ideal model for humankind overall.
If you look at, for examplewhat called you Gus, you know,
idea of ideal humankind, , youguys mentioned this, right?
(35:00):
At the same time, Jesus had theinitiative, the courage, the objectivity,
right, as well as the intuition, thecapacity of love or the spiritual wisdom.
That's really demonstrated ina lot of examples when he, for
example, expelled the merchants.
that were turning thesynagogues into a market, right?
Very energetic, very, you know,gregarious in a way that, no, get out
(35:24):
of here, this is not your place to be.
He was very you know, emphatic andreally putting those people out.
At the same time, when he invitesthe children to talk to me, right?
As the children come to me,he shows his other side.
And on his, again, leadership,principles, he was able to understand.
The intrinsic needs for everyone thathe was leading and he was really talking
(35:47):
to, to tap or to really uh, achieve whatthose people needed at that time, right?
I think that to me is a, it's amagnanimous faculty that leaders, we
as leaders have to understand peoplecome to us for different reasons.
And if we're able to really moveaway from the surface, right, the
tip of the iceberg, what's reallydriving that person's behavior, right?
(36:10):
Or that person's interest and all that.
I think to me, there was nobody elsethat did as Matt, nobody mastered this.
The way Jesus did.
So to me, it's just phenomenal,
Dan Assisi (36:20):
right?
I love that, Flavio, and I love that yousaid the courage that he had, too, right?
Because I think that he doessomething that is really hard for
us to do nowadays, which is havedifficult conversations, right?
We all struggle with having difficult,crucial conversations, so to speak,
where the stakes are high, thingsare important, and he did it in a way
(36:40):
that it was not aggressive, right?
He was able to speak truthand speak to the Spirit.
It wasn't speaking to the physical,he was speaking to the spiritual, and
that obviously he had credibility,he had authenticity, he lived it,
and he did that, and he was verycourageous in that sense, because
he had his eyes on what was best.
For everybody, not only for him, right?
(37:01):
And I think it's really, that'sreally a powerful thing because
sometimes we get trapped on whatis it that I need right now?
What's my angle?
What do I need to get out of this?
As opposed to what's best for everybody.
He was able to convey that messageto such an extent that one of the
things that I admire the most aboutJesus that I only learned later as I
started to study a little bit more.
It's his ability to cross lines, right?
(37:23):
And break taboos at the time.
So, for instance, things that we takefor granted, but he went out and spoke
to women when they were by themselves.
That's something that did nottake place at that time and place.
Like a man would not just simply go outto a woman and start speaking with her.
If she were by herself he also spoketo different people who were considered
(37:44):
perhaps not as good or not as friendlythe Samaritans that there were like the
Jews and Samaritans didn't really seeeye to eye and Samaritans were considered
to be perhaps in less than but he made apoint of sharing many different stories
about how there's a good Samaritan.
That's even a parable like the goodSamaritan for us is just a term But
back in the time, a good Samaritan wouldbe even more impactful as a message
(38:08):
because many people would be, will bethinking that there is no good Samaritan.
It's impossible to havea good Samaritan, right?
Which is not different than the wayI think our world is crumbling, the
cookie is crumbling today, right?
Where we think that because somebody'spart of a political party or a nation
or a preference, Whatever it is,we think that they cannot be good.
(38:29):
And so this ability to walk andacross borders, across groups and
talk to people about the spirit,about their needs, it's so inspiring.
Because sometimes I struggle withthose difficult conversations, right?
And sometimes I ask myself, Ooh,Am I being the right amount of
courageous in this conversation?
I don't want to come again, come ascharged and I don't want to wimp out from
(38:50):
actually saying this is important to me.
And I think he did that so wellin many different ways, right?
That I think still sticks asa, as an example for me, 2000
years later, it's amazing.
Suzana Simões (39:00):
Yeah.
It's funny.
Um, where you guys are sayingreally resonates with me.
And when you ask what you guys have moreto say, and we were like quiet for a
second I was kind of, you know, afterSharon spoke about the six powers, I
felt like I needed a minute to digest it.
And where I was is like, Oh,let me think about those things.
(39:24):
And then when you ask about, what Youknow, of those six, it stands out most
to you, and I'm not sure if I understoodcorrectly, but when you spoke about
the core, because I wrote everythingdown the core of who we are, our best,
our gifts, and authentic leadershipand values, I think that's one of
(39:46):
the things that I struggle at work.
I think that leaders were expected to bein a certain way, behave in a certain way.
And in every moment and timein my life, my, my work is to
be myself, my authentic self.
(40:08):
I want to be able to speak honestly andfreely about my feelings, my emotions.
Without judgment, without shame,and I think that's that there is a
place for that in leadership as well.
And, you know, going back to Dan andFlavio, I think that Jesus portrayed that.
He was himself at all times.
(40:30):
He didn't change.
And, we, in leadership, and dependingon the size of the institution that
you work there are a lot of politicsand a lot of things to be considered.
So, navigating that canbe challenging, right?
But I, I still try as muchas possible to be, you know,
(40:51):
as authentic and transparent.
With my thinking, butalso with my feelings,
Sharon Seivert (40:58):
I would love to give you some feedback.
Susanna, because I have attendedyour lectures and your authenticity
ripples out from your core.
You are so there where you are.
And what happens when someone doesthat as a leader or in your case, a
speaker, but you're leading us with yourspeaking is that it allows us to be Like,
(41:21):
Ourselves in that moment we can settleinto it and there's places where we as
human beings overlap Where I have thisin common with you and you have just
resonated it or vibrated It with me.
Does that make sense?
Yes That's what I that's what I feel.
So the effort that you put into beingauthentic Ripples out to everyone you
(41:43):
speak with and everyone you touch.
It is a major blessing When we dothis as leaders or as human beings
when we are our authentic selves.
Dan Assisi (41:54):
Yeah, plus one on that.
Flavio Zanetti (41:56):
Yeah, plus a thousand because there's a lot of studies that
show that the more vulnerable leadersare, the easier they have in building
trust with their teams, and the moreteams trust each other, the more
they perform really well together.
So, vulnerability based trust is one ofthe characteristics of a servant leader.
That's not really...
you know, shame.
(42:17):
So you know what?
I'm sorry.
I made a mistake.
You know, there was a wrong decision.
Let's back up and go to theleft versus right now, right?
And being able to do that.
I think it's a phenomenal, taskers.
If it's a phenomenal behavior thathe was not afraid to say that, right?
And we should learn from it, right?
And there's a lot of benefitsof, behaving in that mindset.
Dan Assisi (42:37):
And I love that you start with that at the core, because I think
Susanna's point is super important.
We struggle knowing who weare, and nowadays it's so
hard for us to look at that.
Flavio's light went outagain right after he spoke.
It's almost like in command.
But Flavio, don't worry, your innerlight continues to shine through.
Yeah, we can see it.
(42:58):
You can see it.
He's still shining.
He's still shining through.
But this core piece is so interesting.
And I, I remember that, that passagethat when Jesus says, I am, right?
And he says, I am the way and so forth.
But there's one, he says, I am.
He knows who he is, right?
I wish I knew who I am to the extentthat he know who he was, right?
(43:20):
He had no hang ups about it.
And I think that is such an importantquestion for us to ask nowadays, when
we get pulled in so many differentways about who we should be for others.
And that's a really great.
place is authenticity, vulnerability,the core piece and not, you know, I just,
(43:41):
it's just such a, I think I just want tohighlight and reframe that for our times
because I think that we are, even withsocial media, we're trying to be so many
different things for different people.
I see so many happypeople on social media.
But that's not the world, right?
I think that going back towho we are, knowing what we
are about, it's the journey.
And, yeah, I'm really glad that he,everywhere that he did, he led with that.
(44:06):
He knew who he was and what he was about.
He knew what his missionand vision was, so to speak.
And I'm not quite sure that I'm alwaysaligned to my mission and vision.
Sharon Seivert (44:14):
But by doing that, he did absolutely the
way for even today, calling us.
It's like when you're, when youhit a gong and that sound vibrates
out, that's what Jesus did forus in terms of his authenticity.
That sound has reverberatedthrough the ages.
And, you know, he's saying,do that, be that, be yourself.
(44:36):
The being is everything.
If you get that right.
Everything else is gravy.
Everything else is good.
The other thing that he did incommunication that I wanted to
expand on, that Susanna talked aboutwas, and communication, Flavio,
you were talking about that too.
I think that the way he listened,Was multi multi multi leveled.
(44:59):
He listened not only to what thepeople said, what they asked for,
like I'm blind for the, you know,this, of course, this is what I want.
But he listens for whatthe real needs were.
And when you're a good leader,someone comes to you with a problem.
And you listen at many levelsfor what really are they asking,
and what really do they need, andwhat really can I give to them.
(45:21):
So you're listening to the fact thatthey're anxious, you're listening to
the fact that they're afraid of thesituation, you're listening to the fact
that they don't feel respected, or you'relistening to all of those communications
that are coming through them, and thenyou can respond in the most full way.
Dan Assisi (45:37):
I love that because, oftentimes Sharon, I tell people, That
people bring something and they thinkit's a problem, but it's not a problem.
It's a situation.
right?
Sometimes they bring you a situation,but you have to figure out what
the problem is in that situationbecause that situation can be just
one manifestation of a deeper thing.
So I really like that approach in general.
(45:58):
And I think that we can chat about this.
In many different ways, butour time is coming, so maybe we
should we should begin our wrap up
Flavio Zanetti (46:10):
time flies when you're having fun.
I guess, right?
Hasn't this be fun guys?
I mean, we've talked a lot about Jesusand his leadership style and we could
be here talking until tomorrow morning.
We'll be, it will be enough enough topicsfor us to do that, but we have to wrap.
So maybe, you know, I'll start,we'll start with, Sharon.
She's our, you're a special,you're a special guest.
(46:32):
What's one thing that's really resonatedwith you that we talked about today.
And maybe you could also leave, right.
Some information if folkswanted to get ahold of you.
How would they find you, right?
So they can continue the conversation,they can get to know more about you,
your works, your books, your publicationsyour work and everything else.
Sharon Seivert (46:50):
Okay, that was four things.
Okay, let me see if I can get that right.
Uh, so, um, so I am just so happy to bein this wonderful, spiritist conversation
because it means the world to me.
It has...
Spiritism has led meto great new insights.
It has led me to be a better human being.
I'm working on it to be a better leader.
(47:12):
I'm working on it and to enterthe world in a different way.
So spiritism has given me so muchand it's so great to be with you
guys on and talking about it.
And I think, we'll, I thinkwe will continue to talk about
this because it is a full.
Topic for future times.
Um, so I, uh, so thank you for that.
(47:33):
Thank you for inviting me to the party.
Um, I just love that.
And it's always a party when I'mmeeting up with people like you guys.
If people want to uh, learn aboutthe book, they can just go to amazon.
com and get it in print,ebook, or audiobook.
It's the superpower of balancedleadership and unbalanced.
(47:55):
times.
And if you get it, use it to think moreabout the spiritist conversation that
we had, you know, bring our conversationinto looking at the book this way
and how you can claim these powers.
I have a Dutch colleague who's, whotold me that when you reclaim your
powers, these powers, you can createa miracle and reclaim and miracle.
(48:20):
is an anagram.
So think about that forwhat you want to do.
Jesus made all these miracles andthat have continued through millennia.
How about you doing that for yourself?
Dan Assisi (48:33):
And if you get the audio book as I have, you will
get to hear Sharon's voice.
It's like having her in your livingroom or in your car and so forth.
So it's a wonderful experience too.
And there are some also somewonderful musical or audiophonic.
There's a lot of cues there,too, that are really nice.
(48:53):
Um, so thank you for doing that.
Thanks for being with you,
Sharon Seivert (48:55):
Sharon.
Dan and I have swapped stories aboutwhat it is to make our first audiobooks.
So, we've been doingsome kvetching on that.
But we got it done, right?
Flavio Zanetti (49:07):
Now you got me curious, Sharon.
I'm going to have to buy theaudiobook because I want to hear
you, you know, tell me the book.
I love it.
Sharon Seivert (49:14):
Exactly.
That's fine.
I love it.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, we'll see if there'sanother one in my future.
But this one was...
Um, it was a good thing todo, to be able to do that.
So Dan and I have a lot of simpaticoon what it is to create an audio book.
Excellent.
Dan Assisi (49:31):
Sharon, pick who goes
Sharon Seivert (49:33):
next.
Dan Assisi (49:35):
What's that?
Pick who goes next.
Get to pick.
You want to have the threeof us to say, to say.
Yes, Dan.
Sharon Seivert (49:40):
Uh, yeah, I can go on this call with all
of us talking over each other.
Suzana Simões (49:45):
No, no, no, I can go next.
I, I, I am inspired bythe conversation today.
I'm fairly new in the leadership realm.
I have been in my new position for thepast three years and I'm, um, you know,
maybe about, uh, 35 therapists that workfor me today and I'm always thinking
(50:11):
like, you know, what, what can I do now?
How can I learn?
How can I grow?
What else can I study?
And Just, it's just like crazy just
Sharon Seivert (50:21):
occurred to me, man,
Suzana Simões (50:22):
I have to I have Jesus as a role model and I, it's something that
I think I need to study a little bitmore from this perspective, you know?
So quite honestly, it just.
kind of open up a wholenew realm of possibilities.
Uh, for me, I willdefinitely get the book.
(50:43):
I would love to read it and you'llprobably be hearing from you with some
comments and more exciting conversationsand just, uh, feeling enthusiastic about.
You know, I, I wrote a lot ofthings down and I'm like, that can
be a very good lecture too, youknow, so my mind is like, you know,
(51:04):
going like pretty fast right now.
So I just want to thank you all forfor having me too here today for
Dan in particular for pushing usand putting everything together.
Uh, sometimes life is, um.
These battle of priorities and,um, you know, it's, it's, it's
(51:25):
tough, but I appreciate all of you.
Thank you so much.
It was very, very nice.
Thank you.
Flavio Zanetti (51:35):
I'll go next.
Yeah.
I'll go next and then you can wrap us up.
Uh, bring us home then.
How about that?
And you have light.
So I have light again.
So yes.
So to me, to me, uh, I'm a big, a big,you know, a big fan of leadership, you
know, uh, a lot of, do a lot of readingabout leadership, leadership development.
Developing leaders.
It's a great passion of mine, not onlyfor work, but, you know, across my, you
(51:58):
know, my life and being able to connect.
All these great lessons that we've learnedfrom Jesus, if we are courageous enough to
look at his behaviors or his life as of aleader, not just a religious leader, that
opens up a huge amount of possibilities.
(52:18):
For us to learn his treats, hisleadership treats, in a way that it will
make us more effective leaders, right?
So by, by all, by no means, I'ma, I'm a great leader, right?
Uh, but being able to leveragehis teachings or his, leadership
traits has helped me in tremendous,difficult situations in the past.
And I'm so happy, right?
(52:39):
That I was able to choose thatpath and I invite all of us, right?
to go on it as well.
So, big fan of it.
I hope you also, got inspired to readhis, life or his teachings in a slightly
different, paradigm of a great leader.
And with that, Dan, bring us home, please.
(52:59):
Wow,
Dan Assisi (52:59):
there's not a lot more to say.
For me, specifically, I love theseconversations and I love this particular
conversation because it's a great reminderThat Jesus is more than that religious
figure that we have made him to be.
He is a real life figure that, asSusanna mentioned, he is a doctor,
(53:21):
he is a coach, he is a managerleader, he is a philosopher, he is
this well rounded model of what wecan become that is both uplifting.
and inspiring.
And so to continue to foster theseconversations is great for my soul because
it reminds me that I need to take him fromthat little box that we have placed him
(53:46):
and bring him closer to our everyday lifeand see that his examples are for living.
They're not just for sunday.
They're not just for when we arereading the Bible or any other book and
that there is real world connections.
There's so many things thatwe can talk about him, the
miracles, mindsets, and so forth.
So that is really great.
And I love that Sharon hastaken the time to be with us.
(54:09):
Thank you for sharing your wisdomwith us and all the thinking that
you have done on this, Sharon.
I hope that you with us.
Sharon Seivert (54:21):
another party.
I would be happy.
Yes.
Oh, great.
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
Because I any opportunity I can togive back to spiritism for what it
has given me is of such a blessing.
Dan Assisi (54:37):
We're so thrilled to have you.
And now you know where to findher, you know where to find Flavio
Zanetti, you can find him online as F.
Zanetti, you can find SusanaSimoes online as Susana Simoes 70.
And you can find me as DanAssisi because I'm that creative.
I don't have a cool, handle for online,so you just have to use my name.
(54:59):
But we love to have you here.
We just want to remind you thatthere are many other conversations
that you can listen to orwatch on YouTube and Facebook.
But you can also download.
Our podcast and whatever podcastplatform you will listen to or
listen, you listen to the most.
We're so thrilled to have youhere and we hope to see you on
(55:22):
the next Spiritist Conversations.
All right, everyone.
Have a great one.
Sharon Seivert (55:27):
Bye bye.
Bye.
Have a great day.
Bye bye.
Hello, everyone, and welcome to episode 38 of Spiritist
Conversations, where we sit down withfriends and have great conversations about
everything from a Spiritist perspective.
My name is Dan Assisi, and today I amjoined here by the Uncomparable Susana
Simoes and the ever happy Flavio Zanetti.
(00:35):
How are you guys doing?
Suzana Simões (00:38):
Hey Dan.
Hey Dan.
Hey Flavio.
Good to see you guys.
Flavio Zanetti (00:44):
Likewise.
Likewise.
Good to see everyone.
Dan Assisi (00:47):
Yes, it's really great to see you guys.
We're in different partsof the planet today.
Flavio is in Italy.
Susana is holding thefort in the US for us.
I'm in the Bahamas.
And we're just stretching ourspiritual wings today and, connecting
virtually from different places.
Very excited to see you guys.
It's been a while.
It's always reassuring and uplifting forme to have a conversation with you guys.
(01:09):
And today I hope we're goingto have a great conversation.
But before we introduce our guest, Ijust want to remind folks who might
be watching this on different channelson the web that if you make your way
to the Spiritist Conversation YouTubeor Facebook channels, that's the
best way for you to interact with us.
Sometimes because we broadcast todifferent places, we don't get to see all
(01:32):
the comments that you might be placing.
And so we're really happy to haveyour interaction, so feel free.
to come and interact with us.
We love being with you.
And if you're here,just drop us a comment.
Let us know where you're coming fromand pop in your questions and be
part of the conversation as well.
So Zanna, Flavio, are youguys ready to dive into a
interesting and different topic
Flavio Zanetti (01:53):
today?
Absolutely.
This is an interesting one.
I'm on it.
Yes.
Suzana Simões (01:57):
Yes.
Yes.
I'm very excited to see what'sgoing to come out of it.
And what can we take to our dailylives after this conversation?
Dan Assisi (02:07):
Great.
So let's go ahead and bring Sharon.
Sharon, thanks for being with us.
Sharon Seivert (02:15):
I feel like I've been invited to a party,
a Friday night party here.
Flavio Zanetti (02:21):
Welcome, Sharon.
It's good to see you.
Dan Assisi (02:23):
Yeah, we're what you asked for sharing to be aware what you asked for.
That's all I'm gonna say.
But Sharon, we're reallythrilled to have you here today.
Sharon has been who in contactwith us for such a long time.
Now we've been talking aboutdifferent ways of collaborating and
finding a way to get her voice herein Spiritist conversations too.
(02:45):
And I think this is a perfect episodefor Sharon to come in and we'll let
her talk a little bit about herself.
But among other things, she's aninternational leadership coach people.
So to talk about leadership and Jesus,I think that would be great to have such
a wonderful feed perspective on this.
But Sharon, I won't do you justice.
Tell us a little bit aboutwho you are and what you do.
Sharon Seivert (03:08):
Okay, well, I am a member of the Boston Area Spiritist
Center where I see Flavio on manyoccasions and Daniel and Susanna
occasionally when you come to town.
It's interesting how things havecome full circle because it's my
(03:28):
International leadership coachingthat brought me to spiritism, which is
that I had a just spectacular clientby the name of Thais Moriyama from
Brazil, who after we completed ourwork together and she decided where
she wanted to go in her career andleadership herself that she sent me as
(03:50):
a thank you all these spiritist books.
And I Picked up the first one,which was, uh, Renunciation.
I chose from the many books she sent me.
She and her mother decided, actually,I've worn this as this is a gift from
Thais and her mother of the Black Virginwho saved those fishermen in Brazil.
And once I started reading Renunciation,I I just started one page after the
(04:14):
other and could not stop reading.
I read it just cover to cover.
And I was, landing, 10 pointOlympic, land in spiritism.
And I have never looked back.
That was about five years ago.
So interestingly, we, I've come around,I've come to the circle here where
we're talking about what brought meinto spiritism in the first place.
(04:36):
So I was thinking about that when Iwas coming in today, you know, this is.
This is great how this has come around.
Dan Assisi (04:44):
That is awesome.
That is fantastic.
This personal connection is somethingthat I think many of us can attest to.
I think many people find spiritism throughthis personal connection with somebody
because let's be honest, spiritism isnot as widely well known as different
philosophies or bodies of knowledgeor even religions out there, right?
Sharon Seivert (05:02):
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So it has been so that's whyit's so exciting for me to be on
this conversation today with you.
I just you know, I'm so gratefulfor the thousands of things that
Spiritism has given me and theperspectives it has given me.
And actually when I was writingthis last book Genesis helped
me inform it and my studies withthe Spiritist group helped me.
(05:26):
You know, ask different questions.
It's it's very integralto my life and my work.
So it seems like you're an author as well?
Yeah.
Oh, yes.
I am an author of a series of books.
The most recent one is calledThe Superpower of Balanced
Leadership in Unbalanced.
So here we are.
Dan Assisi (05:48):
A very appropriate title, a very appropriate title.
Sharon Seivert (05:51):
In which people say a lot of, Amen, sister.
Yes, here we are.
Yes.
Dan Assisi (05:58):
Great.
So, the reason why we wanted you heretoday, Sharon, besides the fact that
you're awesome is that, we were reallytrying to look at this incredible
figure, Jesus Christ, which, I personallythink is often misunderstood or under
understood in many different ways.
We've made him to be a religious figure.
But in many different ways, there's somany wonderful lessons that we can take
(06:22):
from his leadership and how he handleddifferent things and how he saw the
world, who he talked to, how he wentabout things, doing things that sometimes
I think that we don't notice because weput him in a small little box, right?
And and I thought it'd be great to havea conversation about his leadership
style, especially in this difficult timesthat we live in where we are having a
(06:43):
really tough time talking to each other.
Being kind to each other,accepting different perspectives
and different approaches.
I think that if we live out theretoday in the world, that's all we do.
I think we can agree with that piece.
And this is a topic that is really cool.
About 20 years ago, notthat I want to date myself.
I came across this interesting bookcalled Jesus CEO by Lauren Beth Cope.
(07:07):
That was published in 1996.
And I really thought it was likean eye opening piece because it
was like, Oh my God, I had neverthought about Jesus that way.
And so I could not helpbut think about that today.
And so really excited to haveyou here to talk about that.
Excellent.
Yeah.
Flavio Zanetti (07:22):
I think it's totally you, but most people have not
thought about Jesus in that way.
Right Dan?
I mean, it's, uh, it's people usuallyare, they think about Jesus from
a religious connotation and theystop right there and everybody.
Juxtapose, right, all his teachings,all his leadership examples in order to
really study or look into from that angle.
(07:43):
So you're not alone, and I think stillmost people, when they automatically see
or read the word Jesus, they associatethat with the religious figure, not so
much so with the in the leader that Jesuswas or still is for a lot of us, right?
Suzana Simões (08:00):
Yeah, we tend to, um, to keep Jesus in this very, Narrow
perspective and today we're goingto talk about leadership, but we
could also think of him, his roleas educator, his role as a doctor.
and physician, right?
(08:21):
So there are many ways in which we cango way beyond the religious figure and
bring into, other roles that relate to oursociety and our living and learn from him.
So it will be interesting to talkabout this today, but certainly
(08:42):
there is room for more in the future.
Sharon Seivert (08:45):
Right, right.
When I talk about the superpowerbalance leadership, I think Jesus is
just probably, I'm probably the bestimage person that you can imagine,
because he was so fully human.
He was, he, he and he embodiedall of our sort of gave examples
of all of our best traits.
(09:06):
You talk about him as a, asan educator, and as a healer.
And all of those are aspectsthat we have of ourselves.
And if you think about him in thatparticular way, he leads it with
all these different dimensions.
It's so he's so multidimensional.
And one of the things I love thatspiritism has brought to me is this
(09:29):
total reframing of how who Jesus was,you know, the governor of the planet.
He's not this one dimensionalkind of person who came to earth.
So I love thinking about him inall the ways you're describing.
Dan Assisi (09:42):
Or an absent leader, right?
Because sometimes we think that ifwe have the perspective that he came
once and then we're still waitingfor the second coming of Christ,
it's almost like, where has he been?
Is he an absent leader?
How can a good leader be absent?
Probably not.
Right.
So I think he's a lotcloser than we imagined.
I think maybe it's a way for us tojump in there and say, what do you guys
(10:05):
think about Jesus as a leadership model?
What is it that jumps out at
Flavio Zanetti (10:11):
you?
I think the very, the big one that comesto me is about server leadership, right?
So he was the serverleader per excellence.
And if you look at a lot of businessstudies show nowadays that servant leaders
are way more effective than leaders thatdon't play the role of servant leadership.
(10:31):
I mean, we have severalexamples of servant leaders.
Obviously, the one that really comesto mind is Abraham Lincoln, right?
One of the first ones.
We have, for example, Steve Jobs and somany others that really played that role.
Obviously, not as good asJesus, but played the role.
Of servant leadership that made it made achange or made an impact into the modern
world, so to speak, they can really makesome connections with servant leadership.
(10:54):
That's the way at least to me.
That's what comes to mind right away.
Dan Assisi (10:58):
Flavio, do you really think Steve Jobs was a servant leader?
Flavio Zanetti (11:03):
I do believe so.
I do believe so.
If you read his biography,his autobiography.
A lot of the things that he didwas towards helping, enabling
these people, pushing these peopletowards success, and maybe not
100% of the time, obviously, right?
But the a good chunkof it, I think it was.
Dan Assisi (11:20):
I'll take your word on that.
It's the first time I think ofSteve Jobs as a servant leader,
but I think you do have a point.
Sharon Seivert (11:28):
When I think about that servant leadership of Jesus, one
of the things that I think about isthat he had such love, such compassion.
He felt people's pain.
He went out of his way to help heal them.
So he was a, what I calla relational leader.
It's one of the six powers that he had.
The other thing he did as a servantleader, a relational leader,
(11:50):
is he established a communitythat has lasted millennia.
I mean, think of what he does and howhe has called us to serve other people.
And he's called us to dowork for the social good.
And that is, of course,one of his major messages.
But he is a relational orservant leader par excellence.
(12:11):
I try to when I establishgroups of leaders, one of the
things I try to do is community.
And imagine what he did toestablish a community that
served each other for millennia.
I mean, wow.
Dan Assisi (12:26):
Wow.
Well, and I'm gonna piggyback on thatone sharing because not only did he
create a community, But he went out ofhis way to get people with different
backgrounds in that community, right?
His initial team wasnot homogeneous, right?
We had fishermen, we hadtax collectors, right?
(12:47):
We had all kinds of differentgroups of people, some of which
obviously knew each other.
But some of which perhaps werenot very welcome at first.
So I love that he built that diverse team.
We're talking about diversity,equity and inclusion nowadays,
Sharon Seivert (13:01):
right?
He
Dan Assisi (13:02):
was the OG.
He was the OG on that piece, right?
He was the D& E
Flavio Zanetti (13:09):
master.
Yeah, the diversity andinclusion and equity master.
Yeah, I
Suzana Simões (13:13):
love
Sharon Seivert (13:14):
it.
Yeah, and went way out of hisway and then had his disciples go
way and way and way out of theirway to reach across the world.
Dan Assisi (13:24):
Yeah, and to Susana's point about the educational piece, I find
it hard to distinguish his leadershipwithout the education piece, right?
He empowered others.
He has not left us witha single written work.
He has not left us with anythingother than his words that we
actually hear through others.
(13:44):
So he really empowered this teamof people that then created other
teams of people and who have beenspeaking to us for millennia.
I find that incredibly breathtakingin many different ways.
But Stu, where do you thinkyou're going to jump in there?
Suzana Simões (13:59):
No.
Yes.
When you said in power, I thinkthat's you know, to me, um, when
I think about Jesus from thisperspective, I think about someone who
embrace, heal, dignify, and empower.
Those are the four ideas that Iactually think about and try to
(14:22):
bring to my own day to day life.
So when I'm dealing with myteam, With my employees is okay.
These employees coming to me what isthis employee needs at this moment,
he needs to be seen, he needs to beacknowledged, he needs to be healed
from conflict, from, stress, fromwhatever, is he ready to be empowered?
(14:49):
Right.
To feel that he is really valued.
So I, to think about when he multiplythe bread and the fish, he attends the
immediate need of the crowd, but thenafter that most immediate need is met,
he goes on to, to teach and to empowerpeople and to tell about all the talents
(15:14):
that you had, you were like, you werethe salt and and get them To to fulfill
their missions from that point on.
So I have those steps within me and it'ssomething that I try, obviously we don't,
we're not always far from being like it'sa practice, it's a journey, obviously.
(15:35):
Uh, but those are references that I,I hold in myself, uh, for the work
that I do every day from, you know,from thinking of Jesus as a leader.
Dan Assisi (15:48):
Yeah, I love that Susana.
Yeah, I love that.
Go
Flavio Zanetti (15:51):
ahead.
Flutter.
No, I love that too.
And if I could maybe unpack the ideaof Jesus as a servant leader, right?
In my head, it all begins withcare because servant leaders,
they care for their teams.
They care for their peeps, right?
So to speak.
So he cared about not only the 12disciples, but everybody that he
was Really leading, right, towardsa new life, towards the right?
(16:13):
A new, you know, reality, so to speak.
He set the example foreverybody to follow, right?
Hey, walk on my shoes, right?
I'm the path, the way, and the truth.
He set the example.
He always did the right things.
Not only for himself,but for others, right?
And he created the right mindset,not only for the disciples, but for
everybody that wanted to follow him.
(16:34):
The good thing about, the one thingthat really catches my attention when
I look at Jesus leadership examples...
He allowed people to fail.
That's a very important one to me, right?
If you want, teams tobe successful, right?
Teams to work hard, to make,a great impact into what they
do, they have to fail, right?
Failure means, finding differentways to do different things, right?
(16:56):
And he allowed folks to fail, which to mewas amazing if you think about it, right?
And he also empowers
Suzana Simões (17:02):
Can you, can you, can you bring us an example of that?
Maybe for people who are listening to us.
It may not be so clear.
Flavio Zanetti (17:11):
Great, great point, Suzana.
So, a lot of times, if you're anew leader, right, the automatic
reaction of leading somebody orasking somebody to do something that
that person doesn't know 100% howto do it, it's taking too much time.
Let me do it myself, right?
He never did that.
He asked others.
He asked disciples.
He asked, you know, several instanceswhere he asked folks to go and do things.
He never really took the reins of...
(17:33):
Doing, but rather he allowed folksto go out, try it out, fail, come
back and you give the lesson,you give the teachings, right?
And several opportunities he did that.
To me, that's a magicleadership example, right?
Dan Assisi (17:47):
Yeah, and I can jump in there if you're looking for a passage, for
instance, I remember in John when Jesustells Peter, before the crow, right?
Sorry, before the roostercrows, you rooster crows
disavow me three times, right?
Hey, I'm calling you out.
You're going to deny me three times.
And he was still okay with that.
And after that happened and Jesus andPeter came back quite beat up, right?
(18:11):
Emotionally and obviously psychologically,Jesus then picks him up again and
he asked, I think you might rememberthis different passage that I don't
remember exactly which, um, whatare the line, but he's, he tells
Peter, Peter, do you love me?
And Peter says, yes, of course I do.
Then take care of my sheep.
And then he asks, Peter, do you love me?
And Peter goes.
(18:31):
Yes, of course, teacher, I dothen take care of my sheep and
then he asked for the third time.
Do you love me, Peter?
And Peter then gets it, right?
He disallowed.
Disavow Jesus three times and Jesusbrought this question three times to
say, here's your way back from your ownguilt and self consciousness, right?
(18:52):
So work hard.
So I love that about him.
I think they did a lot of that,but I also want to double click on
something that Susanna said, whichI think was really cool about the
communication piece, because what really.
inspires me a lot aboutJesus among other things.
But in this particular area ishis ability to what we call in
the education field differentiate.
(19:12):
He's able to speak to somebody atone level because he knows what that
person needs, and he's able to speakto somebody else at a different level
because he knows what that person needs.
So we have these great speechesof him talking to the crowd.
And we have this great dialoguesof him talking individually to
people in different pieces withexactly what a person needs.
(19:35):
And that is just an incredible thingthat sometimes nowadays, I think you
get lost sometimes in leadership.
Because I think people feel likethey either have to do this great
speeches or write this greatmemo or do this great thing.
But Jesus was able to know how to relate.
Depending on the person's need and
Suzana Simões (19:54):
that was really great.
And that is where leadershipand education kind of meet.
Because another good example is whenhe talks about the kingdom of heaven.
So there are many, many times wherehe's going to explain about the
kingdom of heaven to the people.
(20:16):
But he will do it in very differentways depending on who he's talking to.
So, for the farmer is the treasure thatis hidden under the ground, for the
fish, the fisherman is the fish underthe water, for, and so forth, is the
yeast for the woman who is baking at thehouse, so it's it's really it's quite
(20:40):
significant his capacity to communicateAnd two, one of the things that I think
is it's very, um, important is how, andwe're talking about relational leadership.
And that calls for horizontality.
So it's being horizontal youknow, in the relating and
(21:03):
meeting people where they are.
But when you are a true leader andyou are very centered on your role
and what you can do for your team,even though you are horizontal
in the relating, you never lose.
Your proper place, so tospeak, in the chain of command.
(21:29):
I don't know if I'm being clearbecause a lot of leaders want
to be respected by imposing.
And
Sharon Seivert (21:38):
when
Suzana Simões (21:39):
you are naturally connected with this role of
loving and leading and enabling.
You don't have to fight for respect.
Respect is just a natural consequence.
People want to
Sharon Seivert (21:56):
look up to you.
I'd love that.
Yeah, I love that.
And I would like to piggyback on thatimmediately because what I hear from you
is the issue of power versus force andJesus was the ultimate sort of force.
self powered leader.
He did not have to force.
He attracted the people tohim who wanted to learn.
(22:20):
So the, um, so that's avery, very important thing.
So he had this natural power whereverhe stood was the hub of his power and
people came to him because of that.
So there was no force.
In him, right?
And that allowed him to stand up to theliterally the political forces of his day.
(22:41):
And the one more thing I'd like tosay to piggyback on your teaching
thing is I am so impressed as Ilook at it about how he could teach
anyone according to their level ofunderstanding and their desire to learn.
And so.
We have the parables and thenKardec came along and, gave us
more of this whole body of work.
But he, people would take whatthey needed from the parables
(23:05):
according to what they understood.
So he spoke to us when he was here.
In exactly the language that we needed.
And that's an extraordinary thing.
It's like reading one of those booksthat's for children, but it's really
for adults, you know, we have alot of examples in that literature.
And that's, I think the way he.
(23:26):
He taught and he inspired and so youcould take every time I read something and
Daniel you're such a master of this thatyou go into a story and you talk about
it and I'm going well I didn't see that.
I didn't notice that.
Dan Assisi (23:40):
Oh, please Sharon.
Keep going.
Keep going.
That's good
Flattery will get you everywhere, Sharon.
Keep going.
Sharon Seivert (23:51):
Yeah, so that's a, that's a form of genius and of power
being able to interpret, to translate,to the level of the person you're
speaking with it's the greatest teacher.
What can you say?
Flavio Zanetti (24:03):
Yeah.
I think the great analogy thatI've heard one, not on Jesus,
but I'd love to connect with him.
It's someone that can reallyspeak at the boardroom level.
All the way down to theboiler room level, right?
Going up and down, depending on whatlevels he was talking to, right?
Being through parables.
(24:24):
To me, since Dan mentioned about thecommunication style, to me, one of the
most important traits, or traits, Ishould say, of a great leader is the
ability to ask very good questions.
Yes.
And to me, Jesus asked...
Amazingly good questions, right?
That if you don't stop to share, right?
If you don't stop, if you don'tstop to think about it, it's,
(24:48):
uh, some of them get lost.
So, for example, if you remember when theblind beggar comes to talk to him, Right?
What?
What?
What's his question?
What do you want me to do?
Right?
Dan Assisi (25:01):
He asked that of everybody.
What would you have me do?
What do you want me to do?
Really?
He's a natural coach.
Flavio Zanetti (25:08):
Dude!
I'm blind!
I'm sick!
What else?
But really?
Is that?
Is that what you want me to do for you?
Heal you and you go.
So I think asking a very good questionsto me spoke, I mean, speaks very highly
of how Jesus was well connected with needsfrom everybody that he served, right?
(25:29):
He always spoke the truth, no matterwhat he, who he talked to, right?
He always used the truth, not only tohurt or never hurt people, but to really
set the tone of a conversation, right?
So he always engaged.
In the very productive conversation,every opportunity that he had, he let,
he left somebody bad when that person,before that person saw him, right?
(25:52):
And that should be, as spiritists thatwe all are, should be all of our major,
our math, our most aspiration, right?
to leave somebody better than before weencounter an individual of that person.
To me,
Dan Assisi (26:05):
I would say, I would say even not, that's not even a spirit testing,
that's a human being thing, right?
As human beings, we should just dothat leave people better than we found
them but Sharon, taking what Flaviosaid, let's go back to something you
said, which I think was really power.
You talked about six powersthat Jesus had, right?
Could you talk to us a littlebit about your insights
Sharon Seivert (26:23):
into that?
And you guys have touchedon on a bunch of them.
And, uh, so the, in the, in the balanceleadership program, as we look at
Jesus through this lens the image thatI like people to have is the center
in the four directions, the compass.
So think of the compass as assomething that we have in our hands.
It's our native birthright.
This is what we have.
(26:45):
Because we're human.
And so as human, we have these sixpowers, which, of course, Jesus
exemplified in their highest forms.
So the first power isour core at our core.
Who are we?
And who are we at our best?
And what are our gifts thatwe need to bring to the world?
to leave the world a better place,to make the world a better place.
(27:07):
And do we own these and bring these out?
And this is what I callauthentic leadership.
And we could talk for hours aboutthe authenticity of Jesus and
the values that he instilled inus and then has had us carry on.
The second is inspirational leadership.
When we talk about the teaching, whenwe talk about continuing to learn and
(27:28):
raising our hope and having to see adifferent world, envision a different
world and let's make it happen.
Let's bring us all there.
The third is motivational leadership,and that is that's doing it.
That's acting.
So not only do we have some good ideas,but We have to show up at the center
and we have to help out and we haveto act a day in a daily basis with the
(27:50):
people who just frankly annoy us a lot.
And so he's always out theredoing these actions that make
the world a better place.
The fourth is the relational or servantleadership, which we've discussed
extensively of which he was obviously amaster and, and I, and an idol for us.
The fifth is managerial leadership.
And I think Jesus did.
(28:12):
I mean, he paid attention to detailsand he took, looked at the comfort of
the people around him and he did, thosethings to take care of our human needs.
He didn't dismiss that.
I mean, look who he was and yethe didn't make that small, you
know, he paid attention to that.
And the sixth is, of course, Themiracle worker, the systems worker, the
(28:33):
context, the bringing of the divine.
How are we connected to the divine?
How do we make miracles in our own livesby putting all of these things together?
So that's the approach that I take.
And when we own our powers, when westand in our power, as opposed to what
Susanna was talking about, which isforce, when we stand in our power,
(28:53):
we will create miracles and that.
Lifts everyone up, and I think that'sour responsibility as Spiritists.
How do we lift everyone?
Around us up.
Suzana Simões (29:05):
Love it.
Love it.
I love it.
I love it.
All right.
Dan Assisi (29:11):
That was a show.
Everybody.
We love it.
See you.
See you next week.
Sharon Seivert (29:17):
And there's so many wonderful examples when we that we can
look to about well, how do I do this?
How can I be this kind of a greatleader in this particular power?
Well, let's take it over.
Dan Assisi (29:29):
Is there one or two that you think are more
important than the other ones?
Sharon Seivert (29:35):
The one that's most important for you to develop
is the one where you sort of havea uh, you're not paying attention.
So, for example, if I'll give myself,I am the poster child for one of these.
And one of the reasons I wrote this bookis so I could get better in these things.
And so I'm one of those writers thatsays, I'm not doing this very well.
(29:56):
I have to figure this out.
And so then I write totry and figure it out.
So for example, the power that isthe weakest for me is the managerial
leadership or the structure element.
I always have to work extra hard at that.
But when I do, when I assume my
(30:19):
And I have, when I accept responsibilityfor that, and I do all those structural
things, which is taking care of thefinances and making sure the legal
documents are in order and and doing,and going into the HTML and making
sure the online reports are working,when I do those things, which is
like chewing nails for me, okay?
(30:39):
I.
I have pumped up that tirethat was not working so well,
and my car is rolling along.
So, each one of those, we were giventhis sense of what it is to be human,
and we need all of these things.
So, knowing that has made me away better leader, because I'm
paying attention to all of them.
(31:00):
And if you can think about it likea car on the road, and all the tires
have to be pumped up sufficiently.
Just enough so you can go.
You will have your preferences.
But I think if we lookat Jesus he did them all.
He was a really full leader, a full humanbeing, and he showed us it was possible.
(31:20):
He showed us this idealthat we can move to.
Okay.
Dan Assisi (31:26):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that's what I think is so uniqueabout him in many different ways, right?
It's the fact that he was so well roundedand so great in many different ways.
Obviously I think we all heard of thatpassage of the woman who's going to
get stoned for being adulterous, right?
And then he turns around and hedoes things on the, on the ground
and eventually everybody leavesand he turns to her and says,
(31:47):
This woman who has condemned you?
No one.
She says then you're free.
But then he tells her, and,but go and sin no more.
So he's saying, Hey, we understand you.
We're being empathetic.
Everybody has made a mistake before.
It's okay.
You are off the hook today, so to speak.
But, but don't do it again.
(32:08):
Yeah.
So there's also this powerfulmixture of tenderness.
Right.
Thank you.
and force, right?
Or, or, or whatever youwant to call that, right?
Of, of rightfulness, uh,righteousness, I should say.
That I think is really touching.
It's like there is thefeminine and the masculine.
There is the, a well roundedapproach that I think is so
rare for us to find nowadays.
Sharon Seivert (32:31):
That's the balanced aspect of it is that he didn't
leave as it were any stone unturned.
If we're going to continue with thisparticular story, he you know, he did
both of these things and I love yourcomparison of the male and the female,
because here's another example whereI feel he had extraordinary balance.
And if you look at the symbol that Iuse, which is the center in the four
(32:55):
directions, that actually is encoded.
both male and femaleleadership at a in a balance.
So I think he exemplified that inthe tenderness, you said, and in the
strength of no nonsense kind of strength.
Dan Assisi (33:13):
Yeah.
And by male and female, wewant to be clear, right?
These are by no waygender specific traits.
We were just talking about traditiousanimus and anima that young brought forth.
Y different ways.
Yin yang and like thisdifferent opposites.
But I think that this balance is areally powerful thing in general for us.
And what else jumps out at you guysthat Jesus did so well that stuck
(33:34):
with you when it comes to dealingwith people and leading with people?
If you don't, if you don'tspeak, I will, but you know, I'm
trying to be polite here, people.
Sharon Seivert (33:46):
I, I, I, there must be something wrong with Flavio.
You're trying to be a good leader, huh?
Yeah, I try Flavio's audiobecause he's in power right now.
Dan Assisi (33:55):
You know, we got to say this, Flavio, if you're watching
this, you'll notice that Flavio hasa little bit of a darker background.
Flavio is doing some reallygreat stuff here today.
He's in Italy.
There is a blackout where he is.
He's running on battery on borrowed time.
So thank you, Flavio.
For for making it happen.
If I were to disappear,
Flavio Zanetti (34:13):
I wouldn't have lost this for anything.
I wouldn't have missed this for anything.
It's already sadly my time here.
So it's 12 38 a.
m.
Oh, oh my gosh.
He's back.
The life is back.
The miracle.
You just, you just, you justmentioned this and everything's back.
Look at
Dan Assisi (34:29):
this.
The light is back.
You're flying there.
Look at that.
But there goes our excuse, but theregoes the excuse of just being able to
kick Flavio out if we don't like whathe says and pretend it was a blackout.
Flavio Zanetti (34:39):
So cannot kick me out, no, no.
What I wanted to say is, I wantedto go back to what you mentioned,
right, that Jesus is the idealmodel for not only a leader, but the
ideal model for humankind overall.
If you look at, for examplewhat called you Gus, you know,
idea of ideal humankind, , youguys mentioned this, right?
(35:00):
At the same time, Jesus had theinitiative, the courage, the objectivity,
right, as well as the intuition, thecapacity of love or the spiritual wisdom.
That's really demonstrated ina lot of examples when he, for
example, expelled the merchants.
that were turning thesynagogues into a market, right?
Very energetic, very, you know,gregarious in a way that, no, get out
(35:24):
of here, this is not your place to be.
He was very you know, emphatic andreally putting those people out.
At the same time, when he invitesthe children to talk to me, right?
As the children come to me,he shows his other side.
And on his, again, leadership,principles, he was able to understand.
The intrinsic needs for everyone thathe was leading and he was really talking
(35:47):
to, to tap or to really uh, achieve whatthose people needed at that time, right?
I think that to me is a, it's amagnanimous faculty that leaders, we
as leaders have to understand peoplecome to us for different reasons.
And if we're able to really moveaway from the surface, right, the
tip of the iceberg, what's reallydriving that person's behavior, right?
(36:10):
Or that person's interest and all that.
I think to me, there was nobody elsethat did as Matt, nobody mastered this.
The way Jesus did.
So to me, it's just phenomenal,
Dan Assisi (36:20):
right?
I love that, Flavio, and I love that yousaid the courage that he had, too, right?
Because I think that he doessomething that is really hard for
us to do nowadays, which is havedifficult conversations, right?
We all struggle with having difficult,crucial conversations, so to speak,
where the stakes are high, thingsare important, and he did it in a way
(36:40):
that it was not aggressive, right?
He was able to speak truthand speak to the Spirit.
It wasn't speaking to the physical,he was speaking to the spiritual, and
that obviously he had credibility,he had authenticity, he lived it,
and he did that, and he was verycourageous in that sense, because
he had his eyes on what was best.
For everybody, not only for him, right?
(37:01):
And I think it's really, that'sreally a powerful thing because
sometimes we get trapped on whatis it that I need right now?
What's my angle?
What do I need to get out of this?
As opposed to what's best for everybody.
He was able to convey that messageto such an extent that one of the
things that I admire the most aboutJesus that I only learned later as I
started to study a little bit more.
It's his ability to cross lines, right?
(37:23):
And break taboos at the time.
So, for instance, things that we takefor granted, but he went out and spoke
to women when they were by themselves.
That's something that did nottake place at that time and place.
Like a man would not just simply go outto a woman and start speaking with her.
If she were by herself he also spoketo different people who were considered
(37:44):
perhaps not as good or not as friendlythe Samaritans that there were like the
Jews and Samaritans didn't really seeeye to eye and Samaritans were considered
to be perhaps in less than but he made apoint of sharing many different stories
about how there's a good Samaritan.
That's even a parable like the goodSamaritan for us is just a term But
back in the time, a good Samaritan wouldbe even more impactful as a message
(38:08):
because many people would be, will bethinking that there is no good Samaritan.
It's impossible to havea good Samaritan, right?
Which is not different than the wayI think our world is crumbling, the
cookie is crumbling today, right?
Where we think that because somebody'spart of a political party or a nation
or a preference, Whatever it is,we think that they cannot be good.
(38:29):
And so this ability to walk andacross borders, across groups and
talk to people about the spirit,about their needs, it's so inspiring.
Because sometimes I struggle withthose difficult conversations, right?
And sometimes I ask myself, Ooh,Am I being the right amount of
courageous in this conversation?
I don't want to come again, come ascharged and I don't want to wimp out from
(38:50):
actually saying this is important to me.
And I think he did that so wellin many different ways, right?
That I think still sticks asa, as an example for me, 2000
years later, it's amazing.
Suzana Simões (39:00):
Yeah.
It's funny.
Um, where you guys are sayingreally resonates with me.
And when you ask what you guys have moreto say, and we were like quiet for a
second I was kind of, you know, afterSharon spoke about the six powers, I
felt like I needed a minute to digest it.
And where I was is like, Oh,let me think about those things.
(39:24):
And then when you ask about, what Youknow, of those six, it stands out most
to you, and I'm not sure if I understoodcorrectly, but when you spoke about
the core, because I wrote everythingdown the core of who we are, our best,
our gifts, and authentic leadershipand values, I think that's one of
(39:46):
the things that I struggle at work.
I think that leaders were expected to bein a certain way, behave in a certain way.
And in every moment and timein my life, my, my work is to
be myself, my authentic self.
(40:08):
I want to be able to speak honestly andfreely about my feelings, my emotions.
Without judgment, without shame,and I think that's that there is a
place for that in leadership as well.
And, you know, going back to Dan andFlavio, I think that Jesus portrayed that.
He was himself at all times.
(40:30):
He didn't change.
And, we, in leadership, and dependingon the size of the institution that
you work there are a lot of politicsand a lot of things to be considered.
So, navigating that canbe challenging, right?
But I, I still try as muchas possible to be, you know,
(40:51):
as authentic and transparent.
With my thinking, butalso with my feelings,
Sharon Seivert (40:58):
I would love to give you some feedback.
Susanna, because I have attendedyour lectures and your authenticity
ripples out from your core.
You are so there where you are.
And what happens when someone doesthat as a leader or in your case, a
speaker, but you're leading us with yourspeaking is that it allows us to be Like,
(41:21):
Ourselves in that moment we can settleinto it and there's places where we as
human beings overlap Where I have thisin common with you and you have just
resonated it or vibrated It with me.
Does that make sense?
Yes That's what I that's what I feel.
So the effort that you put into beingauthentic Ripples out to everyone you
(41:43):
speak with and everyone you touch.
It is a major blessing When we dothis as leaders or as human beings
when we are our authentic selves.
Dan Assisi (41:54):
Yeah, plus one on that.
Flavio Zanetti (41:56):
Yeah, plus a thousand because there's a lot of studies that
show that the more vulnerable leadersare, the easier they have in building
trust with their teams, and the moreteams trust each other, the more
they perform really well together.
So, vulnerability based trust is one ofthe characteristics of a servant leader.
That's not really...
you know, shame.
(42:17):
So you know what?
I'm sorry.
I made a mistake.
You know, there was a wrong decision.
Let's back up and go to theleft versus right now, right?
And being able to do that.
I think it's a phenomenal, taskers.
If it's a phenomenal behavior thathe was not afraid to say that, right?
And we should learn from it, right?
And there's a lot of benefitsof, behaving in that mindset.
Dan Assisi (42:37):
And I love that you start with that at the core, because I think
Susanna's point is super important.
We struggle knowing who weare, and nowadays it's so
hard for us to look at that.
Flavio's light went outagain right after he spoke.
It's almost like in command.
But Flavio, don't worry, your innerlight continues to shine through.
Yeah, we can see it.
(42:58):
You can see it.
He's still shining.
He's still shining through.
But this core piece is so interesting.
And I, I remember that, that passagethat when Jesus says, I am, right?
And he says, I am the way and so forth.
But there's one, he says, I am.
He knows who he is, right?
I wish I knew who I am to the extentthat he know who he was, right?
(43:20):
He had no hang ups about it.
And I think that is such an importantquestion for us to ask nowadays, when
we get pulled in so many differentways about who we should be for others.
And that's a really great.
place is authenticity, vulnerability,the core piece and not, you know, I just,
(43:41):
it's just such a, I think I just want tohighlight and reframe that for our times
because I think that we are, even withsocial media, we're trying to be so many
different things for different people.
I see so many happypeople on social media.
But that's not the world, right?
I think that going back towho we are, knowing what we
are about, it's the journey.
And, yeah, I'm really glad that he,everywhere that he did, he led with that.
(44:06):
He knew who he was and what he was about.
He knew what his missionand vision was, so to speak.
And I'm not quite sure that I'm alwaysaligned to my mission and vision.
Sharon Seivert (44:14):
But by doing that, he did absolutely the
way for even today, calling us.
It's like when you're, when youhit a gong and that sound vibrates
out, that's what Jesus did forus in terms of his authenticity.
That sound has reverberatedthrough the ages.
And, you know, he's saying,do that, be that, be yourself.
(44:36):
The being is everything.
If you get that right.
Everything else is gravy.
Everything else is good.
The other thing that he did incommunication that I wanted to
expand on, that Susanna talked aboutwas, and communication, Flavio,
you were talking about that too.
I think that the way he listened,Was multi multi multi leveled.
(44:59):
He listened not only to what thepeople said, what they asked for,
like I'm blind for the, you know,this, of course, this is what I want.
But he listens for whatthe real needs were.
And when you're a good leader,someone comes to you with a problem.
And you listen at many levelsfor what really are they asking,
and what really do they need, andwhat really can I give to them.
(45:21):
So you're listening to the fact thatthey're anxious, you're listening to
the fact that they're afraid of thesituation, you're listening to the fact
that they don't feel respected, or you'relistening to all of those communications
that are coming through them, and thenyou can respond in the most full way.
Dan Assisi (45:37):
I love that because, oftentimes Sharon, I tell people, That
people bring something and they thinkit's a problem, but it's not a problem.
It's a situation.
right?
Sometimes they bring you a situation,but you have to figure out what
the problem is in that situationbecause that situation can be just
one manifestation of a deeper thing.
So I really like that approach in general.
(45:58):
And I think that we can chat about this.
In many different ways, butour time is coming, so maybe we
should we should begin our wrap up
Flavio Zanetti (46:10):
time flies when you're having fun.
I guess, right?
Hasn't this be fun guys?
I mean, we've talked a lot about Jesusand his leadership style and we could
be here talking until tomorrow morning.
We'll be, it will be enough enough topicsfor us to do that, but we have to wrap.
So maybe, you know, I'll start,we'll start with, Sharon.
She's our, you're a special,you're a special guest.
(46:32):
What's one thing that's really resonatedwith you that we talked about today.
And maybe you could also leave, right.
Some information if folkswanted to get ahold of you.
How would they find you, right?
So they can continue the conversation,they can get to know more about you,
your works, your books, your publicationsyour work and everything else.
Sharon Seivert (46:50):
Okay, that was four things.
Okay, let me see if I can get that right.
Uh, so, um, so I am just so happy to bein this wonderful, spiritist conversation
because it means the world to me.
It has...
Spiritism has led meto great new insights.
It has led me to be a better human being.
I'm working on it to be a better leader.
(47:12):
I'm working on it and to enterthe world in a different way.
So spiritism has given me so muchand it's so great to be with you
guys on and talking about it.
And I think, we'll, I thinkwe will continue to talk about
this because it is a full.
Topic for future times.
Um, so I, uh, so thank you for that.
(47:33):
Thank you for inviting me to the party.
Um, I just love that.
And it's always a party when I'mmeeting up with people like you guys.
If people want to uh, learn aboutthe book, they can just go to amazon.
com and get it in print,ebook, or audiobook.
It's the superpower of balancedleadership and unbalanced.
(47:55):
times.
And if you get it, use it to think moreabout the spiritist conversation that
we had, you know, bring our conversationinto looking at the book this way
and how you can claim these powers.
I have a Dutch colleague who's, whotold me that when you reclaim your
powers, these powers, you can createa miracle and reclaim and miracle.
(48:20):
is an anagram.
So think about that forwhat you want to do.
Jesus made all these miracles andthat have continued through millennia.
How about you doing that for yourself?
Dan Assisi (48:33):
And if you get the audio book as I have, you will
get to hear Sharon's voice.
It's like having her in your livingroom or in your car and so forth.
So it's a wonderful experience too.
And there are some also somewonderful musical or audiophonic.
There's a lot of cues there,too, that are really nice.
(48:53):
Um, so thank you for doing that.
Thanks for being with you,
Sharon Seivert (48:55):
Sharon.
Dan and I have swapped stories aboutwhat it is to make our first audiobooks.
So, we've been doingsome kvetching on that.
But we got it done, right?
Flavio Zanetti (49:07):
Now you got me curious, Sharon.
I'm going to have to buy theaudiobook because I want to hear
you, you know, tell me the book.
I love it.
Sharon Seivert (49:14):
Exactly.
That's fine.
I love it.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, we'll see if there'sanother one in my future.
But this one was...
Um, it was a good thing todo, to be able to do that.
So Dan and I have a lot of simpaticoon what it is to create an audio book.
Excellent.
Dan Assisi (49:31):
Sharon, pick who goes
Sharon Seivert (49:33):
next.
Dan Assisi (49:35):
What's that?
Pick who goes next.
Get to pick.
You want to have the threeof us to say, to say.
Yes, Dan.
Sharon Seivert (49:40):
Uh, yeah, I can go on this call with all
of us talking over each other.
Suzana Simões (49:45):
No, no, no, I can go next.
I, I, I am inspired bythe conversation today.
I'm fairly new in the leadership realm.
I have been in my new position for thepast three years and I'm, um, you know,
maybe about, uh, 35 therapists that workfor me today and I'm always thinking
(50:11):
like, you know, what, what can I do now?
How can I learn?
How can I grow?
What else can I study?
And Just, it's just like crazy just
Sharon Seivert (50:21):
occurred to me, man,
Suzana Simões (50:22):
I have to I have Jesus as a role model and I, it's something that
I think I need to study a little bitmore from this perspective, you know?
So quite honestly, it just.
kind of open up a wholenew realm of possibilities.
Uh, for me, I willdefinitely get the book.
(50:43):
I would love to read it and you'llprobably be hearing from you with some
comments and more exciting conversationsand just, uh, feeling enthusiastic about.
You know, I, I wrote a lot ofthings down and I'm like, that can
be a very good lecture too, youknow, so my mind is like, you know,
(51:04):
going like pretty fast right now.
So I just want to thank you all forfor having me too here today for
Dan in particular for pushing usand putting everything together.
Uh, sometimes life is, um.
These battle of priorities and,um, you know, it's, it's, it's
(51:25):
tough, but I appreciate all of you.
Thank you so much.
It was very, very nice.
Thank you.
Flavio Zanetti (51:35):
I'll go next.
Yeah.
I'll go next and then you can wrap us up.
Uh, bring us home then.
How about that?
And you have light.
So I have light again.
So yes.
So to me, to me, uh, I'm a big, a big,you know, a big fan of leadership, you
know, uh, a lot of, do a lot of readingabout leadership, leadership development.
Developing leaders.
It's a great passion of mine, not onlyfor work, but, you know, across my, you
(51:58):
know, my life and being able to connect.
All these great lessons that we've learnedfrom Jesus, if we are courageous enough to
look at his behaviors or his life as of aleader, not just a religious leader, that
opens up a huge amount of possibilities.
(52:18):
For us to learn his treats, hisleadership treats, in a way that it will
make us more effective leaders, right?
So by, by all, by no means, I'ma, I'm a great leader, right?
Uh, but being able to leveragehis teachings or his, leadership
traits has helped me in tremendous,difficult situations in the past.
And I'm so happy, right?
(52:39):
That I was able to choose thatpath and I invite all of us, right?
to go on it as well.
So, big fan of it.
I hope you also, got inspired to readhis, life or his teachings in a slightly
different, paradigm of a great leader.
And with that, Dan, bring us home, please.
(52:59):
Wow,
Dan Assisi (52:59):
there's not a lot more to say.
For me, specifically, I love theseconversations and I love this particular
conversation because it's a great reminderThat Jesus is more than that religious
figure that we have made him to be.
He is a real life figure that, asSusanna mentioned, he is a doctor,
(53:21):
he is a coach, he is a managerleader, he is a philosopher, he is
this well rounded model of what wecan become that is both uplifting.
and inspiring.
And so to continue to foster theseconversations is great for my soul because
it reminds me that I need to take him fromthat little box that we have placed him
(53:46):
and bring him closer to our everyday lifeand see that his examples are for living.
They're not just for sunday.
They're not just for when we arereading the Bible or any other book and
that there is real world connections.
There's so many things thatwe can talk about him, the
miracles, mindsets, and so forth.
So that is really great.
And I love that Sharon hastaken the time to be with us.
(54:09):
Thank you for sharing your wisdomwith us and all the thinking that
you have done on this, Sharon.
I hope that you with us.
Sharon Seivert (54:21):
another party.
I would be happy.
Yes.
Oh, great.
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
Because I any opportunity I can togive back to spiritism for what it
has given me is of such a blessing.
Dan Assisi (54:37):
We're so thrilled to have you.
And now you know where to findher, you know where to find Flavio
Zanetti, you can find him online as F.
Zanetti, you can find SusanaSimoes online as Susana Simoes 70.
And you can find me as DanAssisi because I'm that creative.
I don't have a cool, handle for online,so you just have to use my name.
(54:59):
But we love to have you here.
We just want to remind you thatthere are many other conversations
that you can listen to orwatch on YouTube and Facebook.
But you can also download.
Our podcast and whatever podcastplatform you will listen to or
listen, you listen to the most.
We're so thrilled to have youhere and we hope to see you on
(55:22):
the next Spiritist Conversations.
All right, everyone.
Have a great one.
Sharon Seivert (55:27):
Bye bye.
Bye.
Have a great day.
Bye bye.
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