What Is Umbral?

Mackenzie Melo returns to Spiritist Conversations to discuss a concept that is often misunderstood in Spiritism: "Umbral."

What is "umbral", anyway? What are these spiritual zones, and what do they have to do with us?

Join Flavio, Suzana, and Dan for another Spiritist Conversations!

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For a bonus read, visit Dan's blog to read "What is Umbral Anyway?"

Episode Transcript

Dan Assisi (00:00):
Hello everyone and welcome to Spiritist Conversations, a show where we
get together with friends to talk aboutthe world through a Spiritist's lens in
an unplugged, unscripted, and fun way.
I'm your host, Dan Assisi, andI'm joined here today by my very
friendly and smart co hosts,Susana Simões and Flavio Zanetti.

(00:24):
How are you guys doing?

Suzana Simões (00:27):
Doing very well, Dan.
Hello to you and to Flavio.
Good to be with you guys again.

Flavio Zanetti (00:34):
Doing well here too, guys.
It's so great to see you both.
And looking forward to, yeah,another 30th Conversations.

Dan Assisi (00:42):
That's right.
It's been a cool minute.
We have not been able to get together.
Lots of different scheduling issues aswe gather from different parts of this
great United States of America from theWest Coast to the East Coast up and down.
Just great to be here with you guys again.
And today we have a good show, guys.
We're going to talk about one ofthe topics that comes up all the

(01:05):
time in spiritism, especially forthose who are learning spiritism.
And it's a little bit sometimesof confusing for some folks, um,
brow that does not roll out of thetongue, the tip of your tongue.
Does it?
Um, brow.

Flavio Zanetti (01:19):
Yeah, not quite.
Not quite.

Dan Assisi (01:22):
Yeah, not quite.
Yeah.
Continue your excitement, Flavio.
We don't want you to be all bubblyand happy here today on the show.
And who are we bringing here to be withus today to talk about this, Flavio?

Flavio Zanetti (01:34):
We're bringing a very, expert, so to speak, from the topic.
It's a very dear friend of mine here fromthe great Commonwealth of Massachusetts.
Mr.
Mello is here with us again.
Welcome, Mr.
Mello.

Mackenzie Melo (01:49):
Hello, Flavio.
Hello, Dan.
Hello, Susana.
I'm glad I'm back and hopefully wewere able to find a good time for
us to be together in different timezones, some of us, but all together
at the same time, at the same moment.

Dan Assisi (02:09):
So, Mackenzie.
Tell us, what kind of experience doyou have about, you know, with Umbrao?
Flavio told us that youwere very experienced.

Mackenzie Melo (02:17):
What does that mean?
I have, I have a few goodfriends, uh, at, at, at that zone.
And, uh, sometimes we, wemanage to get together.
It's kind of hard to get togetherwith all of them at the same moment.
But sometimes we are,uh, we manage to do so.
Some of them, travel faraway, you know, go to Italy.

(02:38):
Some of them go to the UK.
Most of us, you know, stay here in the U.
S.
Right, Susanna.
But all of us, you know,

Dan Assisi (02:47):
I see what you're doing there, sir.
I see,
but it's really great to have you here.
It's been a while since you'vebeen with us on the show.
But then again, it's been awhile since we had a show, too.
So, you know, you fit right in.
Thanks for making the time and CanI just say how exciting it is to be
here with all of you guys one moretime, have a chance to be able to talk

(03:08):
about things that are, that speaks to,to, to our hearts and to our minds.
And I know there's some viewers poppingin as well from different places.
Want to say hello to, to Paula fromIndiana, for instance, that's dropping in.
And so very exciting.
So, but let's not wait that much, right?
Cause that's not our thing.
We just jump into things.
What is Umbra?

(03:30):
Why don't you take a stab at it?

Mackenzie Melo (03:34):
Susana opened up her mouth, so I think she wants to jump in.
She moved, she moved,she definitely moved.

Dan Assisi (03:41):
Or at least, Susana, how about this?
What do people think it is, and whyis it important that we talk about it?

Mackenzie Melo (03:48):
Some

Suzana Simões (03:48):
purgatorial zone.
I think that's the first associationthat people have when they think of
ngā is the purgatory of spiritism.
So, won't you, won't you agree with that?

Dan Assisi (04:04):
That's why we, we have Susana start these things.
She goes right in with the, with thebig words, with the big concepts, I
think is a great way of putting it.
I think a lot of people say, Oh, um,brow and spiritism is like purgatory.
And, and then I think that's aconversation that we, we should be had,
but I think we can say that umbrella wasnever really used in a happy context.

(04:29):
Right.
It's not like, Hey, you know,when I pass from my physical
body, I am looking forward.
To go into umbrella said no one ever

Flavio Zanetti (04:38):
right, but I want to be.
I want to be a devil's advocate already.
That's my role here.
As you guys know, you know, we always,we always have these conversations
and I like to play many pokeholes on some of the definitions.
Yes, I've heard that before.
Their umbrella is like a purgatory.
But if I wanted to maybe doubleclick on that, Purgatory has we, you

(04:59):
know, folks, you know, from differenttraditions, Purgatory is a place that
you go that you don't really qualifyfor the quote unquote heaven, but
you don't qualify for hell either.
So you go to Purgatoryand they go there forever.
Is Umbrella the same approach?
Do we go to Umbrella forever?
My understanding is a little different.

(05:19):
Who wants to

Dan Assisi (05:19):
tackle that?
Yes.
Yes, yes.
Are you saying that, um, brow is thebureaucratic office of the afterlife
where, you know, your process getsstuck there and you never leave

Mackenzie Melo (05:37):
Well, uh, um, brow it is kind of, it's kind of funny that, uh,
the way we think about, um, brow and,uh, the way we in, uh, in Spiritism.
Talk about it, right?
Because, um, a a lot of us, you know,joke that we are going there or we
are, uh, gonna be stationed therefor a while and then we move on.

(06:00):
And, um, independently I think that wherewe are going to or where we, we might
end up in, uh, we all have independentlyof religion, we all have the same
kind of idea that everybody one day.
Will be in a place where they don'tlike to be, but they are there because

(06:22):
of stuff that they did in the past ofthe of what they did in their lives.
And then once we grow up,and once we mature mentally,
physically, spiritually, um.
Psychologically, we can, we can allunderstand that, uh, there will be a
moment in time where we will be sufferingbecause of stuff that we did or because

(06:44):
of something that happened to me and thenI'm there and I'm kind of stuck and for
us to get unstuck from that place, we haveto actually do something to move on from
that place and, um Despite what Flaviussaid, my, my understanding, and I'm not
an expert, uh, but my understanding wasthat purgatory is not an eternal thing,

(07:09):
differently than, uh, heaven and hell.
Purgatory, to me, and I, I was never aCatholic, but, uh, on my conversations
with some folks, uh, we, I always hadthat idea that it's, and maybe that's
why we, we always tend to think ofumbra as if it's a purgatory, because.

(07:30):
Once you're in purgatory, and theword itself kind of, uh, implies
that, that you're there to purge.
You're there to remove from yousomething that should not be there.
So from there, there's only one way.
It's one way up.
You may stay there for a very long time.
Don't get me wrong.

(07:51):
Uh, it, but it's notsupposed to be eternal.
So it's not as bad as hell.
But it's not, of course, not evenclose to be good as, as heaven,
although I have to say that I had, Ihave some friends that would rather
stay forever in purgatory that goingto, to, to heaven, to have harps and

(08:14):
angels all around them all the time.
So it's kind of, it's kind of, uh,you know, talking about Umbra, we
have to talk about the edges as well.
Otherwise.
I don't, uh, you know, it's, it's,uh, and, and maybe we'll get into the
definition of the word, but the wordumbrao, it actually refers to like a

(08:34):
passage from one state to the other.
So, yeah, but I already spoke too much.
Go ahead.
No,

Flavio Zanetti (08:41):
we're not here to talk about purgatory, but it's, it's
important to mention that purgatorywas not originally in the scriptures.
It was actually introduced, Ibelieve in the 11th century.
If I'm not mistaken.
As a new concept, because folkswere like, Hey, I'm not good enough,
but I'm not bad, you know, either.
Where do I go?
And they started questioning andchallenging the, uh, of the, the

(09:01):
clericals, you know, from that time.
That's when the quote, unquote, but cameup with the definition of purgatory.
Uh, but to your point, right, uh,Mackenzie, it's, uh, it, it, it,
it's not, it's not, you know, uh, ina way, something that, you know, we
talk a lot, you know, in Spiritism.
We use a lot of thedefinition of Umbra because.

(09:23):
That's what we learned from thebooks that we study that I mean, I'm
sure folks have read or watched themovie Nostelar, which in our home,
which has a great demonstration ofwhere Andrew Lewis stays in Umbra for
eight years until something happens.
I think this is the pivotal moment, right?
Do we get to leave when we get there?

(09:44):
What makes us be able to leave?
If we encounter ourselves there?

Dan Assisi (09:50):
Oh my god, you guys are so smart.
I don't even need to, like, do anything.
Why am I in this podcast?
I should just listen to you guys.
Somebody has to turnthe lights on, I guess.
Somebody, yeah, that's my job, right here.
Um, I love that you mentioned, I lovethat you mentioned, uh, Nosolar, which
sometimes is referred to in AstralCity, as Astral City, the book, too.
Some translations will do it differently.

(10:10):
Um, but as a matter of fact, Flavio,I think that the first time that
we see the word Mrow, as far as Iknow in Spiritism is in that book.
Um, and it was published in 1944, so thatis, you know, almost a hundred years ago
and was really an iconic book, I thinkin Spiritism that many people refer to.

(10:31):
And I think in spirituality in general,if you think about it, because it's
a, he's a first person narrative of,of this person, this person called
Andrea Lewis, right, who passed.
over to the other side and found himselfin not so great places, Umbrao, and
then that's his journey out, right, ofspiritual purgatory, so to speak, and,
and, and there are other books in ourhistory of our human history that sort of

(10:55):
are similar in nature, but I think noneof them has, have ever been as detailed,
so if you have not read the book orthere's a movie too now, right, there
might be a reading recommendations therefor, for, for, for us who are reading or,
I'm sorry, listening or watching this.
But I think your point is really greatbecause the word Umbral pops up in that

(11:15):
book and that's when we first see that.
And I think a lot of people when theyread that, the first parts of the
book, there's a lot of suffering.
He's going through a lot of challengesthere, figuring out what's happening.
And I think that's where that ideathat Umbral is a negative thing stuck.
But I also love that you weretalking about the origin of

(11:36):
the word and everything else.
So it makes sense that we would thinkabout this and it makes sense that we
also equate it to purgatory, right?
Because in many different ways, ifwe define purgatory as a temporary
place to be for us to kind of syncup or readjust or realign, right?
Or re filter, re balance, whateverit is that you want to call.
I'm sure you will find a word muchsmarter than the ones I'm using.

(11:59):
Uh, then it kind of makes senseto equate both of them together.

Suzana Simões (12:04):
One of the things that I really like, um, that, um,
Mackenzie, um, said is that it's hardto, You speak about the idea of umbrao
without also considering, um, theidea of, uh, hell and, and heaven.
And I would say in general, the idea ofwhat happens to the soul once it's outside

(12:31):
of the spirit, the physical body, right?
So...
Where do we go and what determineswhere we go and what composes,
what is the composition?
What are those places made off?
So I think there are a lot of questionsthat can't be answered for which we have,

(12:53):
uh, Some, um, explanations in Spiritism,and I think that this is one of the
greatest services that Spiritism does,which is to actually explain some of the
loss and the, um, the, the life afterdeath with a little bit more of specifics

(13:17):
than these very general and sometimes evenabstract ideas of what the afterlife is.
So, you know, I just want to put that,I can't go on, but I don't wanna,
um, you know, just keep talking.
So, maybe one of you want to, um,share a little bit about what is the

(13:38):
spiritual concept of what happensafter we, uh, leave our physical body.
What determines the place that we go andwhat is this place made of after all?

Mackenzie Melo (13:52):
Yeah.
One other thing that I, um, thatI, before maybe we go that far.
Is, uh, we also think, uh, when that's

Suzana Simões (14:01):
the starting line.
What do you mean that far?
? Mackenzie Melo: Yeah.
. Um, yeah, I think I'm a, I'm a slug,so I'm moving very, very slowly.
, so.
Is that also because when we talk aboutwe are going to, we talk about a place

(14:23):
like you just said, and that's right.
Right.
That's very interesting to think aboutbecause, you know, like Dan said, and,
and, and, and, well, all of us said,um, when Andrea Luis talks about this,
he's at, he's in or he's on, but he'sat a place, he's somewhere he exists.

(14:43):
Mm-hmm.
. He doesn't have his body, but he existsand he's somewhere so, What is this
somewhere or where is this somewhereand is, is it, and the question ends
up being, is it the place that makesit be an umbrao or is it, or is it
not a place that makes it an umbrao?

(15:03):
Is it something that's inside of meor is it really a physical place?
And to this, I mean, we could go on andon and on, but one thing that I like to
think about is, uh, uh, Independentlyof if it is a place or if it is a
state of mind, a state of soul, um, wewould have to have a name for either

(15:27):
for this state or for this place orfor this situation that we are in.
And I love when Kardec, he doesn'ttalk about Umbra, but I love when
Kardec, at the beginning of, um,the Spirit's Book, when he talks
about the world, the word, uh, soul.
Right.
And he says something thatto me is very, very sane.

(15:49):
He says at one point, even if therewas no soul, even if the soul was just
something that was made up by a humanmind, we would have to have a name for it.
Because we have to have names forthings that we think about, so that

(16:10):
we can refer to that thing whenwe are talking about that thing.
Be it a real thing, orbe it not a real thing.
Umbral, in that sense, to me, is somethingthat's, it's more like this world,
this word, or this concept, this idea.
for us to, to, uh, pedagogically oreducationally talk about something that

(16:35):
we will always, or we will not always,but we will live and we are going to
live and maybe we are living right now.
So it's not necessarily a place.
And we know that because even, uh, in,uh, Andre Luis, when he is talking about
that, and when he is kind of Saved ortaken from there or, uh, rescued as

(17:00):
the word I think that he uses there.
He says that there were other peoplearound him that he could not see it.
So they were both at the sameplace, but he could not see or
feel the other ones because hewas just in a different vibration.
He was as if, um, he was, uh,an ultra violet and the other

(17:22):
person, the other spirit was like.
Uh, and on the visible spectrum,so we could not see it.
There are there are waves and differenttypes of light passing through us
right now that we cannot see it.
We can feel it sometimeswhen it's too hot.
And we can feel those hot waves orcold waves, but we cannot see it.

(17:43):
So it's kind of the same idea.
So this idea of umbrao, and I'm sorry,and I apologize if I'm, I'm broadened
this up too much, but this idea ofumbrao to me is, is, uh, uh, It's to
me, it's not a place to me personally,it's not a place, but it's, it is what

(18:05):
we make of the place where we are.
It is what we feel where we are.
Although there is a place for that,but some people there are in a
hospital, for example, although theymight be, or they are physically in a
hospital, but some of them are doctors.
So they are not suffering.
So being in Umbrao on the other, you know,even if it's a place, it's not necessarily

(18:31):
because I belong to that place.
Or as if I, uh, I am, I suffered orI did something wrong to be there.
No, maybe I chose to be there.
Maybe I want to be thereto help other people.
So it's kind of a complex idea.
Uh, and I just wanted to throw this, this

Dan Assisi (18:50):
out to you.
I love that.
And I would actually say that,you know, the way I look at
it, it's not dissimilar at all.
And I think it's sort of both for me.
It's a state of mind.
And a region.
And to go back to, I think whatSusanna was teeing us up for,
which is really great too, is, youknow, from our perspective, We know

(19:12):
that we have this essence of whowe are, which we call our spirit.
And we all know this is onecertainty in life, right?
Benjamin Franklin, death andtaxes, this body will fail.
Fail and falter at one pointin time and I will die.
Right?
It's, it's sometimes unfortunatefor us to think about this.

(19:32):
It causes people consternation.
They get worried about it, but it'sone certainty that we do have and we
don't talk that often about it, right?
And in that moment, Religions in generalhave also promised us that there is an
afterlife, but nobody has really beenable to fully assert and say, Hey,
this is what's going to happen to you.
And I think that's really a great valueof spiritism that we dive a little bit

(19:55):
into that space because we actuallycan't tell you a little bit of what's
going to happen to you because wewith the with the learning mediumship.
As we have, you know, done, and thisis kind of the origin of Spiritism.
We have actually been gatheringreports from people on the other side.
And so they're actually telling usfirsthand, such as Andrea Luis in

(20:16):
this book, what it could look like.
And we have learned a couple of things.
And one of those things is that ourmental attitude, uh, our worldview,
our experiences, the way we seeand think the Word are important.
And that carries with us...
When we pass to the other side,we may leave the physical body.

(20:37):
I may not look the same and Ihope I don't, but when I get
there, what I have done and howI think will not be the similar.
And you know, because there's a lawof attraction, like attracts, like
I will likely be gravitated or hangout with people who are just like
me, because that's what happens.

(20:58):
And in this particular case, ifmy worldviews, if my attitudes
and habits are not as healthy, orif they're really materialistic.
I will be attracted to peoplethat are on the same scale.
And if I'm not aware, for instance,that I have passed away, or that I
even believe in spirituality, which isquite common, I might be attracted to

(21:19):
regions with other people that think thesame way, and that might be difficult.
And so, I do think that it is amental state of mind, in which
the way I think will dictate...
Like if I'm happy or not, but becauseI think a certain way in the spirit
realm without a physical body, thelaw of attraction will work even in a

(21:40):
greater fashion and will bring peopletogether and they will create these
regions, these locales where spiritsthat are happy or not so happy hang out.
Now, having said that, I think thatthere's not just one place where we
could say, Oh, that's a purgatorialor whatever the zone, right?
And it's obviously not forever becausewhere's the justice in that, right?

(22:01):
We can, we can improve.
And what I think is really cool too.
Yeah, go ahead.

Suzana Simões (22:05):
No, in the law of progress.
So where is justice inthe law of progress?
So we are always progressing.
So, um, no, I was just going toadd that to what you're saying.
I didn't mean to interrupt you.

Dan Assisi (22:17):
Oh, no, not at all.
Please, please do.
That's what we do best, right?
And so I think that your point, my kidsis really great because we need to look
at it as a state of mind in a place.
If we think it of just a place,He almost sends a message that we
have very little control over it,or there's just a geographic scape.
I'm just going to walk far enoughand get out of there, right?
Or I'm going to wait forsomebody to do something.

(22:40):
It's definitely something thatis within our ability to do.
Now, at the same time, I thinkwhat you're saying was really
cool, Mackenzie, because there is acertain relativity to Umbrao, right?
Because it could be that what isUmbrao for you is heaven to me, right?

(23:00):
I can have such a...
Perspective or life or behavior in thisworld that is so unhealthy that hurts
me spiritually speaking that when Igo to the other side What you think is
struggling is a blessing for me, right?
Because you are so far higher or moredeveloped than I am that that you
know What will be really difficult andunpleasant for you might be like something

(23:23):
that's really incredible for me, right?
So there is this degree of relativityrelativity That's important for us to
consider and know that there is notjust one, you know, that's why I think
that the concept of heaven and hellis, are, are so, I don't want to use
the word antiquated because I thinkthat would be like belittling it,
belittling it, but like, so inept, right?

(23:46):
Because we evolve,

Suzana Simões (23:48):
you know, and also limiting,

Mackenzie Melo (23:51):
limiting,

Flavio Zanetti (23:51):
you guys are touching on something very important because I
also believe that Umbrao is not likea physical place, one, two, three,
you know, main street, whatever.
I mean.
It's not a physical locationper se, but it's not all, it's
not only a materialization.
It's not only a creation of our mindsthat connect us with other spirits, right?

(24:12):
I mean, I think it's, it'sa combination of the two.
It is a temporary space or temporaryplace, as we learned from the
book, from the book Now Solar.
Because there are, you know, aswe call these spiritual colonies.

Dan Assisi (24:27):
And others, right?
And, and other, sorry, andother books too, right?

Flavio Zanetti (24:31):
Other books, yeah, I was going to get there.
So in other books, but this was thefirst time we, we look, we hear,
or we learn, uh, this concept.
And also, to Mackenzie's point, Ipersonally believe it's a mistake
to believe that only spiritsof, uh, like lower, you know,
development ended up going to Umbra.
I mean, as we learned from thebook, Andrew Lewis ended up going

(24:53):
there, you guys remember, right?
Because of his.
self destructive behaviors.
He was even called suicidal by many,many spirits when he was there.
He had addictions.
Thanks to his addictions, when he getsthere, and he's asking himself, why
are these folks calling me suicidal?
I didn't kill myself.
Why is that happening?

(25:14):
That's the, a lot of folks that readthe book without paying attention,
get confused from that, that passage,because why are they calling me suicidal?
I'm not, you know, really taking my life.
It's effective.
He didn't really take care of thisinstrument that God gives us, our bodies,
actually ended up putting him there.

Suzana Simões (25:36):
Well, I, can I add some things?
Um, I, I agree.
I agree with you guys in the sensethat, um, it's, it's, it's both.
That's how I think of it.
Um, so one of the things that Iusually like to, to kind of put to
people to help them to understandis that you don't have to be outside

(25:58):
of the body to be experiencinghell, heaven, or purgatory, right?
So we, we, we are in a mental.
space right now, each one ofus that, you know, it can be
many shades of gray, right?
It's not like we, we, we,we have these three areas.

(26:22):
So like you guys say, I mean, thehuman condition is, uh, there's room
for a lot of different conditions,but whatever is your inner experience,
your mental experience today, ifyou were to die the next minute,
you would find yourself in the same.
mental space.
But what we have learned with Kardecis that we have, um, the universe is

(26:46):
filled with what we call this veryprimitive energy, um, that is the,
uh, universal cosmic fluid, right?
And I don't mean to make this, uh, toocomplicated, but think about it as the
more, most elementary matter that exists.
And we know that ourthoughts are powerful.

(27:09):
The thoughts for the spirit are likethe hands for the incarnate ones.
So whatever we're thinking,we are manipulating these, um,
these energy in the universe.
So it creates a zone.
It creates an area where theconstructions are the results.

(27:32):
So if our in his thumper withhis participation and he's back.
Yes.
If our, if our, our inner spaceand mind and psychic is tormented,
is taken by guilt, by darkness,by feelings of devaluation.

(27:56):
Um, sometimes, um, Some of usexperience from time to time.
I'm not worth it anything.
I'm a monster I'm bad and allthose thoughts that characterizes
where you are Mentally and that isgoing to manipulate the environment
Around you what is really really?

(28:18):
And what's really cool to think aboutthis is that any dark environment is
only a temporary situation becauseagain, it's mirroring the darkness
that we are temporarily in, but no one,no one will be forever in darkness.

(28:39):
And that's why there's no such athing as being forever anywhere
because we're always evolvingbecause our essence is light.
So the point that I'm trying tomake it, yes, we create this.
Spaces and environments that are mirroringour inner state, but as we evolve, as
we progress, naturally, the, the, the,the environment starts to change because

(29:05):
our inner reality starts to change.
And before I pass it on to you guys,there's one, uh, passage on a book of
Andrew Lewis, that's not Astro City.
But where, uh, there's a dialogue ofAndrew Lewis with one of his mentors
and, um, the, the, the mentor pointsout to Andrew Lewis, the most of the

(29:26):
souls that find themselves because thespirit is a super, super scared to end
up in a purgatory and what he highlightsfor what he highlights for, uh, Andrew
Lewis is that the majority of thespirits that were there were spirits who
knew better and they violate the laws.

(29:51):
consciously knowing that andwere immersed in a lot of guilt.
And the guilt was, uh,very much correlated to the
knowledge that they have.
And it's interesting because he says, youknow, the most primitive beings, because
we still have some in our planet arenot in the purgatory or in the because

(30:15):
they didn't even have their awareness.
of the mistakes that were being committed.
So what puts you in a position of,you know, let's say, uh, conflict and
darkness is every time that we, uh,violate, that we break the law knowingly,
knowing that is what really disorganizesus and puts us in this Uh, position off

(30:42):
in darkness because, um, led by guilt

Dan Assisi (30:47):
and exactly that, which we've seen also are there is a passage of
muscle are that I really like there's aninstructor like, you know, more elevated
spirit who's guiding, uh, Andrew Lewis.
I think it's instructor lysis or lysis.
Depends on how you want to talk about it.
And it tells him that That umbraworks as a region of removal for
foul mental residues, and I thinkit's exactly that piece like that.

(31:10):
We bring with us this energies that arecreated from for our actions because
our conscience speaks louder, right?
We all have that conscious in us, right?
And then we lose our physical bodythat becomes even more powerful.
And that becomes even more, uh, clamoring,clamors even more for attention.

(31:30):
And we cannot ignore that.
And the guilt and the regret and thefeelings that we feel are more intense.
So we have to kind of deal withthose and make sure, and it makes
sense that we have more of that ifwe were doing things conscientiously
that we should not be doing.
Uh, but the good news is exactly that.
It is a learning process.
Right.

(31:51):
It's something where we can kindof shed those illusions that those
residues that we have createdenergetically about ourselves and
that we can kind of move forward toto a new future because at the end of
the day, that's what we're here for.
We're here.
We were created to be happy.
And we to learn along the way, right?
So, so umbra in many waysis that threshold as the

(32:15):
word implies in Portuguese.
So this is an interesting piece.
I think Mackenzie alludedto in the beginning, right?
In English, the word umbra hasa connotation of darkness and
shadow, but in Portuguese, wherethis work was originally published.
Like, the same word is really more aboutthe doorway and the threshold of a door.
So it's really aboutan area of transition.

(32:37):
And I think all of us aregoing to have our umbrao.
That is, all of us are goingto transition from the physical
body into the spiritual life.
It doesn't happen.
All of a sudden, there's an adaptationperiod, there's a detachment from
the physical body and a littlebit of a period of confusion.
And in that process, we are going tobe thinking a specific way until we

(32:57):
get a little bit more aware, right?
And aware of where we are spirituallyand what we're going to do.
So all of us.
are going to go through ourown umbrao, our own transition
into the spiritual life.
We just hope that it's going to beas pleasant and as short as possible.

Mackenzie Melo (33:16):
Yeah, and that shortness, I think it's very much related to how
Even how we see time or how weactually see what's, what's going on.
Of course, it depends on what we aredoing and how we are behaving and so on.
However, um, one idea is, um, thatit depends on how, where we are

(33:41):
in a state of mind for changing.
If we are, and we say this allthe time, or we hear, I hear
this, or I used to say this, youknow, if you sit a minute on top.
Of an ant's nest it will last forever.
It doesn't matter if it's 30seconds or in a or close to a
wasp's nest It will be crazy.

(34:02):
But if you spend like half an hourtalking to friends one hour talking to
friends It looks like it just startedand I just look at the clock, it's 34
minutes that we are here, but it would,so this thing just just flies by.
So our perception of time in ourperception of where we are, it
really depends on how much we are.

(34:23):
We, uh, we are sufferingwhile we are there.
So if we, if we look atour regrets or at our.
Uh, as Susana was saying is our guilt ofwhat we did wrong because we knew we had
the knowledge and we didn't do it or,um, but we look at it from a perspective
of, okay, I didn't know better.

(34:44):
Or even if I knew, I thought I knew, butI didn't know because I did it again.
So I still have to learn.
But if I, if I start looking fromthis perspective, it will take
me out of there much quicker.
Even if I'm guilty, even ifI really did something wrong.
Why?
Because now I'm telling myself, Oh,now I have to get ready to redo it.

(35:07):
I have to get ready to do it again,but do it correctly the next time.
So.
It is more of a, uh, Iwant to get out of here.
I need to get out of here, but not justbecause I want help from other people.
I need to get out of here and I wantto do something to get out of here.
And I think that that'sone of the main points.

(35:30):
Of what Andre Lewis does when he isin Umbrella, because it is a passage.
He knows that he's going to get out ofthere, but he doesn't know how to do it.
He doesn't, he, he, he's waitingfor something to happen for a
very long time until he realizesthat, Hey, I need to do something.
I cannot wait forever.

(35:50):
I have to be the one to learn.
Yeah, and then he prays and thenhe starts like focusing and he
prays for his mom and he says, Hey,someone, can someone come here?
I need to get out of here.
I don't know what to do.
So can come on.
And then he starts like doingsomething and all of a sudden.
Things clear up.

(36:11):
So it's from the inside.
It's not from the outside.
We tend to look at Clarence.
You coming to him andhelping him getting out.
But actually, if he had notstarted, it would have not happened.
So that shows me that it isreally like that transition.
And that period was eight years.
Why?
Because I don't know why.

(36:32):
It's, it depends on each person.
It depends on each spirit.
It depends on how much we areready to, okay, look inside.
What do you have to do?
Is it a prayer?
Is it a meditation?
Is it, uh, looking at someone onthe side and trying to help them
instead of just having, I want itfor myself, I want it for myself.

(36:54):
So we are locking ourselves up.
And we are in darkness all the time.
But like Susana said, once westart to open it up to embrace.
It is as if we are opening up and lettingthat light that we are coming out.
And then all of a sudden what was darknessstarts to become a little more clearer.
And then Clarencio, and I love the namesof this, the names of people in this book.

(37:19):
It's one of the main things that Ibarely hear anybody talking about.
If you go and pay attention to all thenames of basically all the characters,
they all have a very, very deep meaning.
Even the ones who don't have name,like, and I'm just going to do a
parenthesis here, like Andrea Luisa'smother, she doesn't have a name.

(37:45):
And to me, that is more sane thanall the other names of the book.
She is what?
A mother.
That's it.
She is love, or the best way thatwe, or the, like, like Chico Xavier
used to say, of all the typesof love that we have on earth.
Motherly love is the one that resemblesthe most the love of God for us.

(38:10):
So, to me, that's why André Luiz's motheris, is that, is André Luiz's mother.
It's just a mother.
So, coming back to him.
So, he's, Clarencio is the one thatMaybe brings the light from the
outside, but Andrea Lewis was the onethat opened it up with a prayer to

(38:33):
receive that light from the outside.
So, um, this, you know, you're on mute

Dan Assisi (38:41):
to

Mackenzie Melo (38:44):
mute it

Suzana Simões (38:49):
again.
Don't go was barking.
So I kind of, yeah.
So, um, it's, um, I thinkwhat you're speaking about is,
um, the readiness for change.
Um, so sometimes, and this is for all ofus, we, we say, I want something different

(39:10):
for myself, or I want, um, a differentlife, or I want a different situation,
and yet we, we say it, and we want it ata level, but not enough, not deep enough
to actually be able to, to transition.

(39:32):
To the new experience.
We

Dan Assisi (39:35):
want it to be done for us, right?
A lot of

Suzana Simões (39:38):
times, yes, a lot of times people will say, I want, but
I can't, and I don't understand why.
Because I want, yes, youwant, your want is real.
It's just not solid.
It's just not stronger or deeperthan whatever is holding you.
behind.

(39:59):
So a lot of times you will take alittle bit more of, uh, staying at the
zone of struggle because the strugglewill ultimately Uh, strengthen the
will, it will, uh, materialize in youthe, the, the power that's missing

(40:22):
so that you can cross the threshold.
So when, what happened with AndrewLewis and the time that he was
there was the time needed for himto get to that place of redness.
So the prayer was done and washeard because he was sincere because
he had arrived to a place within.

(40:44):
where he was truly, trulyready for something else.
And so he opens himself up and he findsthe help that, by the way, had always
been available to him, as it is alwaysavailable to all of us, waiting for us,
waiting for our readiness to connect.

(41:06):
To, uh, what is

Mackenzie Melo (41:08):
already there.

Dan Assisi (41:10):
And isn't that so like us in many different ways, right?
And sometimes in our liveswe want to change, but we
don't want to change, right?
We want the change to happen orsomebody else to do it, but we
don't take responsibility for it.
We see that perhaps we victimizeourselves a little bit, whatever it is.

(41:31):
We want somebody else to do the work andwe don't want to, but we want to reap.
We want, yeah, we wantto reap the benefits.
Right.
And so.
And I, I think I, I love that because Iloved what we were saying here, because
I think those eight years that took himin Umbrao, it was the eight years that
it took him to fall back onto himselfand realize that, uh, you know, he lended

(41:52):
himself there through his actions, hisattitudes, his behaviors, and that he
needed help to get out of there, that heneeded to let go of his old way of being.
And embrace a new one, even if hedid not know what the new one was,
and that's what he asked for help.
And that's when help was given, becausehelp will always be given, right, for

(42:13):
those who sincerely want to me, that's the

Flavio Zanetti (42:14):
main teaching, um, because when I look at Andrew Lewis, right, he
was a, you know, he was a medical doctor.
He was a well off, you know, citizen.
He was a decent person.
Was he an angel?
Of course not.
He had some challengeslike we all do, right?
But then when he sees himself there,he questions, Hey, why am I here?

(42:37):
What's going on?
I have no idea where I am.
And he's challenging that situation.
He's challenged, he's challengedwith that situation, but he's
also challenging himself.
Why am I here?
And the whole eight years took himto reflect, well, imagine how much,
how many reflections or how much hehad to reflect on that situation to
make him wake up for really to reachout to the greater, you know, good

(43:01):
that we have available to all of us.
I think this is a, this is a learningopportunity that we all have in
front of us that we have assistance,you know, in our reach, we have a
way to get help no matter where weare, how difficult the situation is.
Thank you.
There's always help available fromus, even if we don't see it, if you
don't feel it to me, that's, that's thebiggest, um, teaching that I saw or that

(43:25):
I took from that episode of the book.
Uh, and then, you know, we shouldn'treally have to do the same.
I mean, the way I look at it is if Ilook at Andrew Lewis's footsteps, we
don't have to follow the same footstepsbecause we already know the outcome.
Thankfully, we read the book.
We've gotten the knowledge.
It's up on us to execute onthat knowledge to practice.

(43:49):
To love more, to be more charitable,to reach out, to pray, to meditate,
to do all those things that we knowhelps us, to help us, in order not to
fall under the same traps that he did.

Dan Assisi (44:02):
And just to really be a better human being at the end of the day.
Yep.
And what

Mackenzie Melo (44:08):
I find interesting is that we see that happening, you
know, it doesn't matter, um, almostit doesn't matter what series, what
TV we watch, what movie we watch.
We always see the sametype of thing happening.
We see a person that'sstruggling with something.
Uh, say if we talk about the, the,the, the hero's journey, like in,

(44:31):
in so many movies, he is reluctant.
He wants something to change,but he doesn't know or she
doesn't know what to do.
Lots of friends and lots of peopleare telling them what they need to do.
Or you have to go on, you haveto do this, you have to...
And then he fights back,he doesn't know what to do.
And then all of a sudden, whateverreason it is, it wakes up and

(44:53):
he says, Yes, I have the power.
I, I am capable.
I, I can do it.
It's possible for me to do it.
And then, like Susana said,there's this threshold that...
We, we tend to look at it and we, forwhatever reason, we don't like to cross
it, maybe because we know it's goingto have a lot, we're going to have a
lot of work to do, we're going to havea lot of stuff to do, we're going to

(45:14):
need to change so much, but when itcomes and then we, when we change,
then we say, okay, that was hard,but it was not as hard as I thought.
And why?
Because I already walked up to it.
So we already did a lot of work walking upto it, and then we, we are able to do it.
So it took Andre Luis, uh, eight years.

(45:36):
It might take us, uh, somepeople might stay there for
two minutes, for one minute.
Some people might not even be thereanymore, you know, don't stay there
because their, their mind, their mind,our spirit, the process of what we, how
we look at things is completely different.
Then we will arrive and lookaround and say, Oh, I'm here.

(45:59):
Oh, I shouldn't be here.
I don't need to be here.
So, you just keep walking.
But some people walk andthen say, Where am I?
Who am I?
And that's the other big question.
Who am I?
Andre Luis didn't, didn't knowwho he was and probably that's why
he didn't know he was a suicidal.
He didn't know that he was hurtinghimself by doing whatever he was doing.

(46:21):
And he had that guilt in some way becausehe knew it, but he didn't know it.
He knew it physically.
He knew it because he was a doctor,but maybe he didn't want to accept it.
And then that's where, even though weare not conscious, conscious of it, we,
we know and we have that, that uh, thatunconscious thing that talks and speaks

(46:44):
to what Susanna was saying before thatwhat we, we build around ourselves.
Like our thoughts is our hands, right?
Our, our, our hands and webuild the world around us.
And it's not only the consciousthoughts that build the world around us.
Because when we die, we don't thinkabout, I don't think about my glasses.

(47:07):
I don't think daily about my clothes.
I don't think at allthe time about my beard.
But when I, when I, uh, when Idie, I'm pretty sure that when I
die, I will see myself in glasses,in beard, and with a big belly.
That's how I, I be

Dan Assisi (47:26):
because Speak for yourself, sir.
, speak for yourself.
. Mackenzie Melo: My dad says that he's not worried about his belly
anymore because his per spirit isvery, you know, he, I shall, his
mind is already set when he dies.
I
shall go back to my, I shall go back to my ponytail times

(47:46):
and during college, my luscious hairs,but you did bring something, but you
did bring something great questions.
You know, you're talking about question,asking himself who he is and what's next.
And one of the things that wedo like to do here every once
in a while is get a question in.
Right.
And we have a question infrom a, from a friend here.
Let's put that on the screen.

(48:06):
Anna tells us.
What do you guys say about someone whohad an overdose and left the physical
body all of a sudden by accident?
And I'm going to read into the questionthat she is concerned about umbrao and
where the state of this person is, right?
I think that is a natural assumptionI'm going to make, Anna, and I

(48:28):
apologize if that's not the case,but I think that's connected.
So do we want to take a stab on whatwe think about that situation and
how that relates to umbrao or not?

Suzana Simões (48:38):
Sure.
Um...
I think that we, we, one thing that Ialways like to say when people ask me
about some specific scenarios is thatwe never know the specifics of a case
because each person is a person, eachspirit is a spirit, uh, what led that

(49:02):
person to the use of drugs or to theoverdose can be different paths for
different people and God's mercifulnessis infinite and is an item that we
are far from truly understanding.
But based on what we have been sharing,there are some general concepts,

(49:24):
and that's, I mean, as far as we cango, that we can equate knowing them.
So if you think of someone who is usingdrugs, usually that person is a lot of
times seeding, uh, seeking, uh, escaperoute from himself, from problems, right?

(49:47):
Um, and denotates a state of suffering.
of struggles and that isthat person in a state.
So that in that moment, at least.
So that is one general idea that we have.
The other general idea isalso the type of death.

(50:08):
So when we know that when someone is olderor has a disease and it's naturally moving
towards the natural death, The person isalso psychically, uh, more ready, more
prepared because he or she is aware of,you know, that that might be approaching.

(50:34):
So that's kind of in therealms of possibilities.
And the physical body, if thephysical body is at an older
age, will also be less vitalized.
Um, because you can think of it aswe get older, we don't run anymore
and we don't have the burst ofenergies that a toddler has, right?

(50:57):
We get tired.
I mean, we go to bed earlierand, and et cetera, because we're
losing, uh, some of our vitality.
So the older you are, and sometimes whenwe go to, uh, to chronic conditions,
uh, it makes the passing process.
more easy for the spirit is difficult.

(51:18):
Any that sudden because the spirit awakenswithout that preparation, but without
that understanding of what happened, hea lot of times, or she can really feel
himself to be alive because he or she is.

(51:39):
Uh, without the understanding of the newsituation, if the person was materialistic
or never even thought about spirituallife, that can also be another factor.
So here are threedifferent factors, right?
The mental state of the individual,the closeness to death and the natural

(52:02):
cycle of that, and the type of death,when it's very sudden and unexpected.
Those are all factors that makesomething like this, um, difficult.
And, um, but again, there arealways the, the, the circumstances
of that person's journey, whichwe don't know and we can't say.

(52:27):
So we cannot and never affirmthat because someone died for an
overdose, he's there or elsewhere.
Uh, we, we don't know that.
Um, but what we know is that.
You know, it's, it's, it's a challengingsituation, and that's how I would, uh,
put this, answer this and say one that,you know, calls for our prayers and

(52:52):
our, uh, support for that, uh, spirit.

Dan Assisi (52:58):
Well said, Sue, especially because we know that
our friend is going to wake up, soto speak, on the spiritual world.
Confused, feeling lost, andeventually might come to regret
that that happenstance, right?
Because they leave behind people thatthey care about, people that they love,
and that is always heartbreaking and verychallenging and very difficult because you

(53:23):
end up cutting short the relationships,even though we didn't intend to, right?
So there is no place in ourhearts other than compassion.
There's no place in our heartsfor anything else other than
Sympathy and support for peoplewho undergo such a difficult
transition, such as this one, right?
And we'll, we'll keep this personin mind, as Sue said, right?

(53:45):
Like we'll, we'll keep thinking aboutthem because that's what we need.
We need to uplift each other, right?
And the way we do thatis through our actions.
And, you know, and sometimes that means.
Helping people while they are incarnateand sometimes helps it also helps them.
It also means helping them when they aredis carnate or without a physical body.
So, so let's do that.

Mackenzie Melo (54:07):
I loved when Susana earlier on talked about we don't know,
we have no idea what's God, what isGod's mercy, how, how powerful, how big,
and we have, we really have no idea.
So just to, to.
Take that into this, uh, the, theanswer of the question that was, uh,

(54:28):
that was proposed to us is I, I'll goback once again to no solar and, and to
the same situation with Andrea Lewis,where he says, someone tells him, um,
maybe Lisa's, maybe Clarence, you'reone of the, or one of the nurses, he
says, Oh, you know, you helped a lotof people while you were incarnated.

(54:50):
You did a lot of good things.
You, you used some time of yours toprovide care for patients without pay.
So they, you would treat themand they would not pay you, and
that was what you needed to do.
And you have no idea how powerful theprayers of those ones were to you.

(55:14):
And those prayers helped in your recoveryand those prayers are why you're here So
one of the reasons why you're here So, ofcourse, it's a it's in a different way.
They say and they mention that but theidea the general idea is that and so um
Umbrao, so to start this wrap up umbraois not a punishment That's one thing

(55:38):
that I wanted to say from the beginning.
I completely forgot about umbrao isnot punishment because Despite all,
everything I said about purgatory, right?
The idea of heaven Hell in purgatoryis not the idea of a, a just God or a

(55:59):
loving God is an i is the idea of a Godthat punishes what umbrella umbrellas
and what, um, the hell umbrellas orthe hell purgatory idea is, is not of
a vengeful or um, or a, um, angry God.

(56:20):
It's the idea off.
He lets our destiny in our hands.
He lets our life in our hands.
Therefore, we are responsible eitherfor our fall or for our uplift.
So if we are stuck for however longthe time is in a situation that's

(56:46):
bad, we should not and we shouldunderstand that God is trying his best
with everything that he has aroundus to take us from where we are.
And if we keep there, if weare staying there is because
we still want to be there.
And this want is notnecessarily a conscious want.

(57:09):
It's not necessarily, oh,because I want or I like it.
No, it's because I stilldidn't grow up enough.
I still didn't cross the threshold ofreally I need and I want and I'm gonna
change and I'm gonna do something.
So umbrao is not a punishment.
Uh, is a consequence of what weare and of our desire to grow.

(57:32):
And we make mistakes and we, wefall and we raise and we keep going.

Flavio Zanetti (57:38):
Wow.
So much, so much, uh, somuch I learned from you guys.
That is awesome.
However, our time is running out.
You know, it's been great.
The conversation is amazing.
Uh, we did have a chance to gointo deep, into depth, into details
on what Umbrao is all about.

(57:58):
But it's time for us to wrap.
Unfortunately, you know, it's,it's been great, but it's
really time for us to wrap.
So I guess the question I'm goingto ask is if we were to leave
with one thought, one main thoughtabout Umbral, what would that be?
I can start, I can answer my own question.
I mean, I can start with that.

Dan Assisi (58:20):
That's good modeling.
That's good modeling, Flavio.
Good job.

Flavio Zanetti (58:23):
Walk the talk, right?
That's all we do.
To me, the learning is we're allgoing to eventually go through there.
But it's going to depend on us howquickly or how, you know, you know, how
long we're going to stage in that place.
It's only going to dependon us and nobody else.

Suzana Simões (58:44):
I, I, um, I beg to differ because I'm not going.
Um, and I, I will say that, um, fora lot of people who are very, very
afraid of dying and a lot of, one ofthe big reasons why we're afraid of
dying is because of, um, You know what'sgoing to happen in our consciousness.

(59:08):
Um, God does not expectperfection from us.
That's unrealistic expectationfor us to have ourselves.
So what puts us in, um, a darkplace is not our humanity.
It's our resistance to change.
It is our...

(59:30):
unwillingness to open to learn.
It's not your faults that will put youin a, in a, in a difficult position.
It's your unwillingnessor when you give up.
And you don't want to get up anymore,or when you choose to walk backwards

(59:51):
and do not, um, accept the flow of life.
So it is resistance and rebelliousnessin the sense of like, you know,
life is showing you the way and youchoosing to go against the flow.
So do not fear umbral or whateverit is that you want to call

(01:00:12):
this, uh, afterlife situation.
By focusing on the presentmoment and just going to
the end of each day, putting yourhead in your pillow and saying today
wasn't perfect, but I did give mybest and tomorrow is a new day.

(01:00:34):
I'm going to start again.
I'm going to try to do a little betterbecause If you live your life like this,
it's, that's where you are with your mind.
And at the end of each day,you are in peace with yourself.
You show my friend that youwill be in a good place.

Flavio Zanetti (01:00:51):
Love it.
Thank you.
Thank you, Sue.
What about you, Matt?
What do you think?
What's one thing that, you know,is gonna leave with you after

Mackenzie Melo (01:00:59):
two days?
Oh, I'm gonna say the same, the samething that Susana said in a different way.
Don't wait.
We have to do it.
That's the thing.
We have to do it.
You know, sometimes we, welook at the difficulties and
we wait for others to change.
We wait for, uh, and, andwhen I thought of this, I

(01:01:21):
remembered a song that I, I like.
And I'm just going to read a few passagesof it and the world, the, the words,
the, the, the, the title of the songis, uh, waiting on the world to change.
And, uh, he see, he's, he says that,oh, uh, we, it's hard to beat the system
when we are standing at a distance.

(01:01:43):
So we keep waiting, we waiton the world to change.
So it's kind of a punch becausehe's, he's, uh, he makes me think,
okay, am I thinking like this?
Am I waiting on the world to change?
Because if i'm waiting on theworld to change i'm one that's not

(01:02:05):
that's not changing the world So Ineed to be the on the other side.
I need to be Someone who wants the worldto change and who needs to do something
So if I want my world to change whereI am and not go Even if I'm, I'm, I'm
there, I have to change, I cannot wait,I have to do it, and I have to start

(01:02:29):
it yesterday, and hopefully I did.
If not, there's today,if not, there's tomorrow.
Don't wait, let's do it.
There's

Flavio Zanetti (01:02:41):
always time.
Let's not wait.
Last but not least.

Dan Assisi (01:02:47):
Definitely, definitely least and last.
Um, there isn't much more to say.
I think you guys said it so eloquently.
I think that what I take awayfrom today is that there is a call
to action for the here and now.
For me to try to livemy life in such a way.
That I'm able to change my values, myattitudes, and my behaviors to that

(01:03:11):
which I think I would want myself to be.
So that when I pass from thisphysical world, which will happen,
10 years, 20 years, 30 years,who knows, but it will happen.
That my transition is as smooth aspossible because I am thinking as
much spiritually as I am, you know,paying attention to the material world.

(01:03:32):
And that's a really tall order for me,and I have tons of work to do on that end.
But I think that's the moment, uh, right?
That's the call of the moment.
And that's why these, theseconversations are so great.
This opportunity is for us to beable to spend some time, right?
Thinking about things that are reallyimportant to the spirit and to the soul.

(01:03:53):
And to help us in some way, shape,or form reprioritize, which is
important to us in our lives.
Uh, double down on the things thatwe carry with us beyond one lifetime.
Leave behind the things thatwill not be useful when we are on
the other side of things, right?
And so I think that's what I hearand I think that's why I'm so

(01:04:13):
thankful and so grateful To have achance to talk with you guys here.
Thanks for thanks for doing this guys.
It's really great.

Suzana Simões (01:04:21):
Thank you everyone

Mackenzie Melo (01:04:21):
Thank you everyone,

Dan Assisi (01:04:23):
and we thank everybody who is listening as well We remind
them that Spiritist Conversationsare available On YouTube or any other
podcast platform, say that twice fast,podcast platform of your liking.
And you can always go backand listen to old episodes.
Or you can also drop us a line viasocial media and suggest topics

(01:04:45):
for a new spirits conversations.
And we hope to hear from youand to talk with you soon.
So thanks for listening everyone.