May 6, 2023 • 64 mins
Spiritist Conversations returns for its 6th year by going back to the beginning of Spiritism by asking, "Who is Allan Kardec?"
To help shed light on the topic, Spiritist researcher and friend Charles Kempf joins Dan, Suzana, and Flavio directly from France.
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Episode Transcript
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Dan Assisi (00:12):
Hello everyone and welcome to episode 36 of Spiritist
Conversations, a show where we sitdown with friends to talk about the
world through a Spiritist lens in aninformal unplugged and unscripted way.
I am Dan Assisi and I am very excitedto be joined by my friends Suzana
(00:35):
Simoes and Flavio Zanetti here today.
How are you guys doing?
Suzana Simoes (00:40):
Hey guys.
Nice to see you again.
Hello, everybody.
Hello.
Flavio Zanetti (00:45):
Hello, Dan.
Sue.
It's great to be here.
Great to see you guys
Suzana Simoes (00:50):
DId you say 36, Dan?
Dan Assisi (00:52):
Episode 36.
Yeah.
Wow.
Yes.
This is also year six.
This is the sixth yearthat we're doing this.
So, um, I still have very fondmemories --I think it was in Georgia
--you guys don't remember this,but I accosted you when I showed up
with a microphone and saif, what ifwe just record this conversation?
So, lovely journey.
(01:14):
Excited to be here with youand kickstart this new year.
Suzana Simoes (01:18):
Yeah, we, our relationship is lasting
Dan Assisi (01:22):
So far, so far....
I am also very excited thatall of us got the memo today
somehow and dressed in black.
So, you know, this is justkind of how we roll these days.
We seem to be in the samewavelength even though we're in
different parts of the country.
So, excited to jump in with you guys.
(01:44):
Let's do this.
Suzana Simoes (01:45):
Who do we have with us today?
Dan Assisi (01:47):
Ah, and our special guest for today's episode
is our friend Charles Kempf.
And he is a researcher, a speaker, andjust a friend of Spiritist Conversations.
He's joining us directly from France.
Welcome back, Charles.
Thanks for being on the program
Charles Kempf (02:03):
again.
Thanks for having me.
Thank you, Dan.
Thank you, Susanna.
Thank you, Flavio.
Very happy to be here again withyou talking about card, which is a
subject I appreciate particularly, huh?
So, okay.
Let's try to transmit some ofthe details of, who he really is.
(02:25):
Who was really card and why is heafter more than, one and a half
centuries still so known and moreand more known by the way everywhere
in on this planet right now.
Dan Assisi (02:40):
Well said Charles.
Very well said.
I think it's a great introduction.
But before we begin, I justwanna remind folks that Spiritist
Conversations is broadcast onmultiple channels on the interwebs.
So if you want to join ourconversation, we would love for you
to find your way into our officialch Spiritist conversation channels,
(03:01):
because the comments you may beputting on different channels don't
always make their way back to us.
So if you do want to be heard, ifyou do want to participate, make sure
that you come in and just say helloon the chat, on YouTube, on Facebook,
or whatever it is that you are.
Cuz we are really excitedto, to have you here with us.
Just a, a friendlyhousekeeping there, but, okay.
(03:25):
So who is this Alon card guy?
Guy who, who's this guy?
Everybody's gonna stay quiet today.
Suzana Simoes (03:36):
It's just hard to know where we start, but I, but I would, yes.
He's, let me just say that he is the coiffire, the man who put together what we
call today, the spirituals philosophy.
How about that for an opening.
Dan Assisi (03:55):
That is wonderful.
That is wonderful.
And thanks for bringing,bringing your dog as well.
So
Suzana Simoes (04:01):
we love your dog.
He's always around.
I
he's
Dan Assisi (04:04):
part, he's part of spiritualist conversation.
So you wouldn't be aspiritualist conversations Adam.
Suzana Simoes (04:08):
I know, I know,
Flavio Zanetti (04:10):
but I'd like to say that the, even though we say card
really compiled Spiritism, right?
He didn't really invent Spiritism.
Correct.
That was not somethingthat he invented per se.
So we cannot say he was the inventor.
(04:30):
But rather he was the one thatcompiled everything he studied and
put together in order for us to todayconsume this than we call Spiritism.
Dan Assisi (04:41):
And that in itself, it's a wonderful perspective, right?
Flavia, cuz I think that'ssomething that sets Spiritism a
little bit apart from differentways of looking at life generally.
You have somebody like, whether it'sa philosopher or a religious person
who receives some sort of like specialknowledge or revelation and that
person then becomes like a prophet,becomes a starter of something.
(05:04):
But with card it, it didn'texactly happen that way.
He didn't really set aside, an intentionto say, I'm gonna start something new.
He was just really looking into things.
And as a matter of fact, Alan Keckis not really even his real name.
So maybe this is, we kindof punt this to Charles A.
(05:24):
Little bit and say, Charles as ourresident, French slash kak expert,
what, can you tell us a little bitabout Kak to start that conversation?
Charles Kempf (05:35):
Yeah, so let's go.
He, his true name was
He was born in Leon in 1804 Uhhuh.
And he grew up, was educated inSwitzerland by in pastor, educational
(05:58):
institute in Ido in Switzerland.
And then he had a normalcareer, I would say educator.
Huh He had an institution atthat time giving for, for young
children and also older children.
And He only got aware or startedsome investigation about spirit
(06:26):
spiritualist or Spiritistphenomenon when he was 50 years old.
Huh?
So it was in 1855 that hestarted to investigate, huh?
And the first book, huh?
The spirits book was published the18th of April 1857, which means
(06:49):
something like 165 years ago.
A little bit more now, huh?
And he dedicated the rest and therest of his life and his his dis
carnation which was 31st of March, 1869.
So he dedicated all that timein investigating, going more in
(07:10):
depth, writing other books givinglecture, visiting centers and so on.
Alan Keck was only, let's saylast, 11 or 12 years of his life.
The first 50 years he was how tosay, n normal life in the area
(07:33):
of education in Paris at least.
And until 1840.
And then in the 1850, he had aperiod where it was he had quite
some difficulties also materially.
He got the necessityto sustain his family.
And he found then this new wayas his mission started only at
(07:55):
the final phase of his life.
So as you clearly he, he, he wasnot always put himself made very
clear that the ideas in the Spiritsbook, for instance are the ideas of
(08:17):
the spiritual we're communicating.
He just made the questions okay.
And the answers he transcribed inthe spirits book are the answers
which were given by the spirits.
So this means that the spirit'sbody of knowledge came from
the spiritual world and wereabsolutely not his personal ideas.
(08:38):
And even on some topics likefor instance, reincarnation.
He had some, he needed sometime to be convinced himself.
The idea, the idea came veryclearly from the spiritual world,
and then he ended up accepting it.
Why?
Because it was presented in arational, explained, logical way.
(09:01):
Not just a statement.
You must be, believe or not.
No.
With all the argumentsbehind it in order to Oh yes.
This really makes sense.
And accepting it then through theunderstanding of of the arguments.
Dan Assisi (09:19):
And that's a great point you bring Charles, because I also
think that's the reason why thespirits also said, nah, nah, nah, you
don't get to put your name on this.
Right.
This is not don't use your, your regularname because this is not your ideas.
This is the spirit's idea.
And therefore we want you to usea name from a previous incarnation
(09:43):
that you had so that it's notconfused with whom you are today
cuz they're doing the heavy lifting.
He did have the wonderful chanceof organizing that, those responses
in an easy to understand format.
But I think right from the beginningwe get this really clear message that
is the spirit's teachings, right?
The first work is the spirit's book.
It's not card's book, it's notreveal's book, it's the spirit's book.
(10:06):
So it's a really different wayand approach of bringing this new
body of knowledge forward, right?
Saying the owner of this thing,it's not here in the physical plane.
I think that's very different, right?
Very unusual.
Suzana Simoes (10:19):
Exactly.
I have a a point in our curiosity thatI want to bring and actually see what
Charles has to say and for all of youas well when it comes to the names.
We mentioned here that Alan Kak was a namethat he used in a previous incarnation.
(10:40):
And Charles start by saying his namewas Denizard Hypolite Leon Rivail,
but we also find Hypolite DenizardRivaill written in different places.
We can be a little confusing.
For someone who does not know,I mean, not only two names,
(11:01):
but seems like three names.
What's the story behind that?
Charles Kempf (11:05):
Yes, it's confusing.
And the second confusion on top ofthis is that Poli, there are five
or six different ways spell it.
So the ZA
is the one which is shown inhis birth register certificate.
(11:29):
And that should be the official one.
Now we have to understandthat it was in 1804.
Huh?
You remember that?
French Revolution came a littlebit after the US Revolution.
It was 1789.
So it was only 15 years later.
Huh.
And at that time so before it was Theregisters were hold by the church.
(11:57):
And after the revolution, of course,they had to be all the infrastructure
necessary with the staff also to make
the revolution.
And that is explaining why at that timethe, the training of those people and
(12:17):
so on was maybe not yet so optimal.
And that it was, let'ssay, uh, uh, not so formal.
And, uh, when we talk about whichis the, the, the most known one,
this is by the way, the one that.
Uh, himself was using when hewas writing or signing a letter
(12:41):
or putting his name when he wasmarried, for instance, and so on.
He always put in, in this sec se sequence.
So it's not only his case that happenedat, for instance, uh, we have other cases.
Alexander Dulan, his name was notAlexander, it was a different name,
but he changed and put the nameAlexander, which sometimes gave a
(13:03):
little bit confusion because youneed to have judgment of a judge.
Mm-hmm.
Saying no, it is the same person, youknow, just to certify the identity.
But that was simply how to say,uh, the status at that time.
Today, nowadays it's a little bit morerigorous and more complicated, but at
that time it was a little bit more free.
And then Alan Keck, of course,uh, rev was quite known in France
(13:27):
in the education he put severalcontribution for the education system.
Not only in France, but alsoin Belgium or countries.
He developed a lot of Pelo methods.
So he had some, he was known as aneducator and if he would've signed
the spirits book with, uh, Revis,one could have said, eh, he is using
(13:48):
the fact he's known in an area inorder to promote something else.
So that's one reasonwhy he changed the name.
He used a pseudonym in fact, butuh, he never was hiding himself.
Everybody was knew that, uh, AlanKeck and Levi was the same person.
And the certain reason was also atthe beginning, you know, when he
(14:09):
published the Spirits book, uh, hestill was working, uh, had to do some
jobs in order to sustain his family.
And two of these jobs werein, uh, a Catholic, uh, uh,
publishing company, Pego, whichwas, uh, from Leon and in Paris.
(14:30):
And the second one he was workingfor, uh, a newspaper, which was
Luve, which was also Catholic.
So at the end, they knew it and theysomehow, he lost his jobs, of course.
Mm-hmm.
Because he published the Spirit book.
But at least it gave him some buffer,uh, a little year, uh, to find some
(14:50):
other ways, uh, to survive in his life.
So that, that is probably also thesecond reason why he adopted his student.
Dan Assisi (14:59):
Interesting.
Yeah, and that's aninteresting thing, right?
Because nowadays a lot of criticismin general in the world is, oh,
somebody's trying to make moneyoff of spirituality, right?
So how is that guy cashing in on that?
But.
For him, it was quite the opposite.
Right?
Cuz he actually put a lot of whatevermoney he had, especially at the
end of the life into this thing.
So he w it wasn't really agreat financial proposition.
(15:22):
Right.
He ended up spending quite a bitof his money into, into this thing.
Is that right, Charles?
Charles Kempf (15:27):
Correct, yes.
He, he was pragmatic, huh?
Because, uh, you can give for free whatyou receive for free, but publishing
a book is not for free publishing theSpiritist magazine is not for free, so
you have to find a way to, to finance it.
And what we knew is, uh, for instance,sorry, he bought, uh, property
which was, uh, villas in Paris.
(15:48):
Huh.
Which today is worth only one flood.
There is worth a millionEuro dollar or whatsoever.
And there's something like50 floods in that area.
So you, you, you can have an ideaof the value of what he had at
that time, but that enabled him.
Uh, to make some, uh, loans.
So he, he was, uh, gettingmonnet something like, uh, 25,000
(16:13):
Frans, uh, on his own risk, huh?
Giving his property as a guaranteefor the loan in order to, to finance.
Uh, because at the beginning, only theSpirits book and the Spirits magazine
did not bring the financial equilibrium.
And that was, uh, always a pro, uh,uh, concern of him in order to make the
(16:34):
thing, uh, giving the sustainabilityto it, huh uh, but, uh, he was clearly,
as you told, uh, Dan, putting Monetfrom his own pocket, uh, into the, the
Spiritism even, uh, af when the thinggot a li a little bit better equilibrium.
Financially speaking, I think
Flavio Zanetti (16:54):
it's important to mention that publishing a book today
while difficult right, it's not,not as costly as he was on Keck, was
publishing right in back in 1857.
So the, the amount of money and, andof course the work required to publish
back then was certain multiple, right?
Yes.
And if we compare to today, right?
So way more difficult back
Charles Kempf (17:15):
then than it is today.
Yeah, it was quite costly.
Yeah.
The typography was letter byletter, line by line, page by page.
And then, uh, 30, 18 or 36 pages, uh, intoa big frame and printing France versa.
And then, uh, Uh, folding and cutting.
Uh, so, and, and you had to dothousand or 2000 or 3000 at once.
(17:38):
So it was, it's, it's a little bitlike, uh, publishing before the,
today we have on demand, uh, youcan, uh, publish one at a good price.
Huh.
But at that time, uh, publishinga book, it was, uh, thousands and
thousands of, uh, French ranks, huh.
Uh, equivalent today to, to, to Euro.
It's a little bit what we knew.
(17:58):
I don't remember, I don't knowif you remember the first books
edited by the InternationalDisabilities Council, for instance.
Huh Uh, it was a huge investment, huh.
Today it's of course much, much easier.
But at that, uh, when you go only 20years ago, it was much more difficult.
So when you go 160 years ago, it'suh, Even more critical though.
(18:21):
Absolutely.
Dan Assisi (18:23):
Yeah.
And one of the things I think it'sreally interesting is cuz we're all
a little bit card deck today, right?
In Spiritism, cuz we, we allend up putting our own resources
into these things, right?
When nobody here gets paid.
Um, and Spiritist conversations, as youcan see, is a top-notch professional
production, you know, full of, uh,really, really skilled professionals
(18:44):
that really, um, do this for a living.
Maybe not.
Uh, but we are happy to, to freelygive that which we've freely received.
Um, uh, Charles, so one of thethings, and, and for the group here
too, one of the things that I thinkmost interesting about Keck, it's
actually not Keck itself, but how Keckbecame Keck, or why Keck became Keck.
(19:05):
I mean, how does, howdoes become Keck, right?
So how did, how did he get exposedto the whole spiritual piece and
decided that he was going to.
You know, actually study this, cuzI think that in the beginning he
was not really excited about, uh,all this new phenomena taking place.
Charles Kempf (19:23):
Yes.
So, so we, we are doing quite some, uh,researchers right now into the mes Mesmer.
Mesmerism, mesmerism mes.
Dan Assisi (19:33):
Yeah.
Charles Kempf (19:34):
And, and amongst this, uh, movement of, uh,
Mesmerists, there were two trends.
One of this trend was spiritualists.
So these people were already around18, 20, 18, 30, 18, uh, uh, 40.
Totally aware that, uh, some person inTheistic state could get some information
(20:00):
and even talk with, uh, spirits cellsof people, which were dis discriminated.
So, uh, clearly there were some clearsigns and experiments, uh, in that way.
Uh, one, two, or three decades before.
Huh.
And then of course we know that1848 was ville in the us, uh,
(20:21):
the turning table and so on.
Mm-hmm.
Was, uh, studying a little bit.
And, and he was, when he had somequestions, for instance, about health, the
health system was not what it was today.
Yeah.
So when you had a health problem, you,you went of course to a doctor, but also
to some novelist, uh, uh, person in orderto give some, to receive some hints about
(20:47):
what to do to, to recover your health.
So he, we have some evidences that he wasalso sometimes asking help from, uh, some
novelist, uh, which was, uh, called Mar.
And that was in 1840.
So, uh, I think since when he arrived inParis around 18 22, 18 23, uh, he was, Uh,
(21:10):
interested in this, uh, area, but he didnot, uh, uh, how to say, engage himself
personally in more efforts in it becausehis task at that moment was, uh, pedagogy
was education, educational system.
Uh, and, uh, when then turning tablecame, uh, at, uh, in France around
(21:33):
very beginning, 18 50, 18 49, uh,it, it, it got really, uh, developed.
But again, he was not, uh, involvedin it before, uh, 1854 when he heard
about, and 1855 when he, for the firsttime went to see, uh, the house of,
(21:54):
uh, c of, uh, Uhhuh, where he, for thefirst time could see a table moving and
answering to some questions and so on.
And since he was, uh, Uh, from thepast method, not trained to observe
the phenomenon of nature and so on, hesaw immediately that it was authentic.
(22:16):
That there was no trick, no lever,no, uh, rope or elastic or whatsoever.
And, uh, he also analyzed immediatelythat some of the answer which were
received are totally out of thecapacities and of the knowledge
of the person which were present.
So that was then the trigger.
Who made him change?
(22:37):
Uh, it was not card becomingcard, it was rev becoming card.
Yeah.
But
Flavio Zanetti (22:43):
to mention Charles, that the turning tables was a
phenomenon back then in France orall over the world, for that matter.
Yes, yes.
Together to watch thesetables turning in everywhere.
Right.
They were, they were, youknow, had some newspapers.
Dan Assisi (22:58):
No Netflix at the time, right?
No hbo, right?
No movies,
Flavio Zanetti (23:03):
no social
Charles Kempf (23:04):
media.
Like this is no radios, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and so it was, uh, like, sorry,
Suzana Simoes (23:14):
I said, who needs all that when the tables are flying around?
Dan Assisi (23:18):
I know, I know.
We, we gotta talk about this thing,like this sting table phenomena, right?
Because the, the, the, the salons werelike in vogue at that time, right?
So, mm-hmm.
So, and, and if, if you have neverbeen, um, uh, if you had never been
connected to the history of the turningtables, people would sit around in
a room and sometimes they would puttheir hands on the table and the tables
(23:41):
would start to move on their own.
And of course there were many callsof like, this is fake and so forth.
But in other, in other,uh, places, it was not.
And so like the whole questionof whether this is really
happening or not was one that was
Charles Kempf (23:56):
bubbling at the time.
Exactly, yes.
But, but he did not theparticularity of kak, he did not
stay to the phenomenon itself.
He, he did not really wasmaking it as a joke or whatever.
He immediately saw, okay, it's moving.
There is no doubt about that.
Uh, he saw it from his own eyes,uh, repeatedly, uh, several times.
(24:19):
But then he went more to the, okaynow, so what the tables are moving?
What is moving the table?
Who is moving the table?
Who is giving the intelligence answersthat are coming through the table?
And this is really, uh, he wentimmediately to this next step.
Huh?
The looking for the cause and alsolooking for all the philosophical,
(24:41):
ethical, and so on, consequences about it.
And that is basically whatwe have in the Spirits book.
So it, it's really thefirst book who came.
In a, not just describing fact thetable moved, uh, each time or white
time or, uh, it was not just the facts.
You know, he, he went much, much further,uh, from the, already in the first book.
(25:05):
And, and that is why today thisbook is still one of the most sold.
Huh?
The, the Spirits book or the medium's bookKarthik wrote the medium's book is still,
today's the best book about mediumship.
Huh?
Even, even though it ismore than 160 years old.
And that is really, uh,when he saw the table, huh?
(25:25):
It then came the connection becausehe came on earth reincarnating
already with his mission, butthen, uh, when the mission started,
uh, this connection was made.
He got aware and, and he decided tofully dedicate himself quite quickly,
uh, to investigate deeper, uh, thisphenomenon and all the consequences of it.
(25:47):
And that is why Kak is really.
Uh, made these, uh, five books plus thesplit magazine, plus the smallest booklet.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, in a really comprehensive waythat has, okay, Sheik Aer made
more quantity of books and so on.
But how to say everything was already,uh, bound and, uh, still today recognized.
(26:11):
Uh, there is no one today whocame and said, look, this, and
that is not consistent here.
There is an contradiction andinconsistency, uh, into what Kak
said, and, and, and we know how muchscience has evolved in the meantime.
But science did never demonstrate thatany fundamental point that were came
(26:32):
through the spirits, uh, is wrong.
Huh?
The, the spirit, the spiritbody of knowledge or in paradigm
is still, uh, solid today.
Nothing has been demonstratinghas been, uh, false in it,
and that is really remarkable.
Dan Assisi (26:48):
Yeah, it really is.
And I wanna double click on whatyou said there, Charles, cuz I
think it's incredible, right?
So what we have is we have thisphenomena taking place in Paris.
Tables are moving, people are beginningto ask questions of table or the tables
right on the objects that are moving.
And the tables begin to answer thesequestions by way of like, go to the left.
If it's a yes, go to the right if it'sa no and later they get a little bit
(27:12):
fancier and say, knock once for a,knock twice for B, which probably took
a very long time to get an answer right?
But obviously the point is, and thisis where I like one of, uh, card's,
uh, phrases that really stuck withme when I first 30 spiritism, is
for every effect there is a causeand every intelligent effect.
(27:33):
Requires an intelligent cause.
So if the answers to these questionsthat are being asked of a table
are intelligent, if the, the tablethe table quote, I'm doing air
quotes, right, air quotes here.
If the table is able toanswer intelligent questions.
And we know that a table does not have abrain, so clearly somebody is behind this.
(27:53):
So what does that mean?
And when we begin to realizethat, oh, hold on a second.
There are the consciousness ofthe departed, so to speak, which
we call spirits, are actuallyanswering these questions.
I think that's the genius of Kardex.
So, so tell, tell usabout the spirit world.
What does, what does it mean to,to be discarnate or without a body?
Right?
(28:13):
And from there we have this, somepacking of these wonderful books
that you are talking about, thesefive books we call the codification
that changed everything, right?
And that's amazing cuz that's a differentway of thinking instead of just enjoying.
Sorry, Sirius tried to talk to mehere on my phone, all of a sudden.
Could hear you could if, could hear her.
Um, but the, the interesting thingis why everybody was looking for a, a
(28:35):
little bit of, of fun and just kind oftrying to figure out what was happening.
He was diving a little bit deeper andtried to understand the consequences
of, of these communication piece.
Suzana Simoes (28:44):
Let me get, um, kind of where you stop there, Dan and just
kind of check with, uh, Charles, Imean some, some of the, the details
of this beginning, um, like Dan wastalking about that he went and he start
observing and he start to investigate.
(29:06):
And I think I read somewhere that atsome point he was interested but even,
you know, because he was such a busyman and he had other things, he was,
um, think, you know, Not yet a hundredpercent into it until he received 15
notebooks of communications and he wasasked to organize those, uh, 50 notebooks.
(29:34):
Is this something that wehave more information about?
Is this something that is, you know,it's a, it, it just seemed to me the
time that I read that was actuallyrelevant and change a little bit of
the nature of the meetings at the time,from just places where people would
go for, for fun to like really givingthe meetings a different purpose.
Charles Kempf (30:00):
Yeah.
So this, uh, the source for this 15notebooks with questions and answers,
uh, does not come from himself.
Huh?
Okay.
Yeah.
What comes himself is what,uh, has been compiled by Pier
Guide Marine, the postwar.
Which were published only in 1889.
So 20 years after his death, huh?
(30:22):
20 years after it was spent.
Hundred years of the FrenchRevolution and so on and so on.
Uh, but, uh, what, what, what is Sure,what Kadak is confirming that he was
going to several groups because therewas some 10 or 20 groups in Paris.
And since he really took the thingseriously, the groups where the people,
(30:45):
uh, were just looking to the, to thephenomenon more seriously, uh, he took
over somehow, naturally the, the, thecontrol of the, of the meetings because he
came with the questions already prepared.
And he really managed the, the, theagenda of, of, of all the meetings.
(31:06):
Of course, some other group,uh, were continuing for
curiosity for fun or whatsoever.
And those groups, he left,uh, a lead bit aside.
But then he was knowninto these other groups.
And then for sure, uh, this personfrom the groups, they had some notes or
what was it, 50 or not, we don't know.
They, uh, when they saw that hewas compiling and doing, uh, deep
(31:28):
investigations, they for sure gave himthe, all the materials they gathered,
even before he joined in 1955.
So, but that it was 50 notebooks asthis does not come from I see himself.
Mm-hmm.
So it's an information that we have totake as he, let's say, more generically,
it is possible that, uh, uh, the biofirst biograph like our resource.
(31:51):
Mm-hmm.
He was knowing several person werestill alive, that did no cardiac
very well when he was alive.
And it was maybe some verbal,uh, transmitted information.
But we got a lot ofdocuments, uh, recently, yeah.
Since 2018, something like two or3000 documents, but unfortunately
(32:11):
we did not go get his notebooks.
They are still mm-hmm.
Missing a lot of, uh, information.
And let's see if, if oneday we, we, we get to them.
So, but for sure he, he took a naturalleadership because of the seriousness,
uh, and also all the engagementhe brought into these sessions.
Flavio Zanetti (32:33):
I want, I wanted to, um, to, uh, bring something, because
oftentimes we talk about Kak, andobviously Kak is the compiler of
Spiritism as we know, but there werea lot of people behind the scenes
also helping him, namely, right.
Emil Gabriel, which was his wife.
Right.
And, uh, not much is talked about her.
(32:54):
So, Charles, do you have any,anything that's, um, It's
interesting to share with us here.
What, for the folks that are either,you know, watching or listening to,
listening to us live or afterwards moreon, uh, his wife, his great partner.
Yes.
That really motivatedhim to continue, right.
Uh, for the, uh, spiritist magazineand the books and all those things.
Charles Kempf (33:17):
Yes.
So really also they came,she incarnated something like
eight to nine years before him.
So she was a little bit older than him.
And, uh, they married in, uh, 1832.
So Kadak was, uh, uh, 28 yearsand she was already 36, uh,
(33:38):
years old when they married.
But of course it was afeat from the beginning.
Huh.
We found the first letter he wrote to her.
Wow.
After the first meeting.
So it is an information that is now.
Uh, available in French and in Portuguese,and I think also, uh, if not yet, uh,
(33:59):
soon in Spanish into a website, uh, whichis called, uh, pro, pro Project Ek, huh?
From the University, federal Universityin Brazil of Jewish city of Jewish defora.
And, uh, they, it's really very well done.
When you go there, you canfind this letter, you can see
the original, you can see thetranscriptions and the translations,
(34:22):
hopefully also one day in English.
Uh, and, and there, when you read whathe writes to her and, and, and the
second letter also, we don't have heranswer swear, unfortunately, but we
have the first letter he sent to herand the second letter he sent to her.
And the, the letter also was sent bythe mother of card to the, to, to Emily.
(34:43):
You see that there was, uh, how tosay, Uh, perfect fit connection.
The beginning.
Yeah.
And, and we can see from all the,the, the difficulties they passed,
uh, as river and then also Kar shthey were also always extremely bound.
So Emily sometimes met putting somepressure on him, but, uh, always
(35:06):
behind in order to, to, to help.
And she was also fully, uh,sharing, uh, these, uh, studies
and uh, uh, giving their opinion.
And we can see from the multiple letterwe found now between them as Revis, uh,
and also later as, because when he wastraveling in 1962, for instance, uh,
(35:30):
there is where we got all the letters.
Huh?
And from this weekend, the Jews, huh?
All what she was doingwhen they were together.
So,
Dan Assisi (35:38):
and, you know, and as a public service announcement, Charles,
we should just say for the youngerpeople listening to us, the letters are
paper, text, uh, text messages, writtenon paper that people used to send.
They're back in the day.
Just wanna level set herefor, for a younger crowd.
Charles Kempf (35:54):
Yeah.
Okay.
It's, uh, they says theancestor of the email, huh?
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah, yeah.
Yes.
And, and, uh, so clearlythey had this, uh, uh, very
complimentary relationship, huh.
And there is a, a discourse,which was done by Gabrielle
(36:16):
Dulan, uh, Gabrielle Dolan.
Now he was, uh, he, he knew cardbecause he was born in 1857.
So I think only one monthbefore was the Spirit book.
And, uh, when, uh, so Emilysurvived card, uh, he died in 1869.
She died in 1883.
Huh.
So, uh, she continued the work and,uh, really, uh, did all what she can in
(36:41):
order to pursue, uh, give continuationto the work, uh, OFPI Man card.
And, uh, when Gabrielle Dolan iscommenting, making this, uh, speech,
uh, at the funeral of, uh, Emily,there is really what, what, how you
can see an appreciation giving fromsomeone who knew them, who saw them,
(37:03):
uh, together during a, a good time.
Suzana Simoes (37:07):
It's a great thing that he had such a, uh, an incredible
and close partner, especially giventhe difficulties and the challenges
that he faced in his, uh, life.
I think that's something that's kind of.
Uh, uh, we're talking about,I mean, we did mention money.
We, you know, play about the money, buthe was accused of many different things,
(37:31):
even, you know, making money out ofspirituals amongst many other things.
So having that person next to himwas certainly comforting, giving
the, the level of struggles thathe encountered doing his work.
Dan Assisi (37:47):
Yes, exactly.
Great point too.
And, and, and Charles, I'm gonnapiggyback on Susanna's here because at
some point it looks like Reveal, right?
Actually has some fame as an educator.
He had a couple of books published,I think in, in, in French grammar
that was used throughout the country.
So his professional life, he wasactually, you know, later on, very well
(38:10):
established and, and somewhat known.
So, uh, it's interesting that hekind of worked backwards, right?
He, he, he actually was known in hisprofessional life and at the beginning,
not known in the spiritual piece.
And then he kind of, Kind of, bothof them kind of went forward, but it
must have been really hard to havethose, those, uh, those comments
that are not always nice, right?
That I think everybody that goes tosome sort of spiritual transformation
(38:32):
has to endure, uh, the criticism of
Charles Kempf (38:36):
people.
So we went in the archive inParis and, uh, went a little
bit more, uh, looking about thisfinancial situation of, uh, Reva.
And uh, really what we find outis, uh, they always had, uh,
financial difficulties as Reba.
It was quite difficult for them.
(38:57):
Uh, this big institute, uh, which wasworking in Paris, had to close because,
uh, his mother was, uh, discarnatealready as she dis discriminated in 1832.
Just after the marriage.
The father disappeared when hewas three years old in 1807.
So, He, he was sustainingalso his mother and his uncle.
(39:21):
And the uncle was gambling in the casinoshere and there, lost a lot of money.
And that was, uh, uh, the, he was obligedto sell his institute to another guy in
order to pay the debt, uh, and whatsoever.
So j just for you to, to see the moneyhe get, he got for buying the Villa
(39:42):
Seger was for the, from the heritageof the father and the mother of family.
And there they got something like, I don'tknow, 10 or 20,000 or 30 South France,
which was not so much that enabled himto buy this property for 10,000 fronts.
All this we found, now we have thepapers, we have, uh, uh, we, we found
(40:03):
all, all this showing that, and atthe end, huh uh, this villa that he
bought gave him the, the, the solidityin order to, uh, enable banking.
Uh, the, the first step of thequalification from his own pocket.
And the reality was this, this, wehave no, all the evidences about this.
Dan Assisi (40:26):
And I also read Charles, that Villa Siu, who was going to be
something that he left afterwardsfor, for, uh, he wanted to build a
community for spirits could who didnot have retirement and could, and
so that they, they didn't becomedestitutes or, or homeless basically.
Right,
Charles Kempf (40:42):
exactly.
So, uh, all the belongings ofEck went to Of course, huh?
When he died.
And all the belonging of family Huhuh, went to the, uh, society for the
continuation of the works of, uh, Alan.
So all, all what they had because theydid not have, uh, children in the order.
(41:04):
So they gave everything for thedevelopment of the spiritist,
even after they had this.
So the problem is that, to sayat that time it was not so easy.
And some distant parent from Emilycame and made a trial and got, uh,
the money back, which, uh, made thebankruptcy of that, uh, society,
(41:26):
uh, at the end already at the endof the 19th, uh, 18th, 19th century.
Sorry.
Yeah.
So we also have the evidencesabout this now Uhhuh.
Fascinating.
This, uh, you can find a lot ofinformation in the book, which
was published recently, huh?
From Carlos.
(41:47):
We are currently translating into French.
Yeah.
And here you find a lot, a lot, a lotof, uh, information, not only about these
cases, which happened at after card, butalso about who were, uh, this, uh, Mr.
Boham, Mr.
Carlo, and so on.
So, uh, a lot ofresearchers have been made.
(42:07):
Now we know exactly who this person wereat at that time, and I think that is,
Dan Assisi (42:14):
I think that's, That's wonderful and very in
line with Spiritist teachings.
Right.
At the end of the day, the resources,financial resources, physical resources
don't really matter as much, but he didleave us with an incredible legacy, right.
Of knowledge that he helped organize.
And when I go back a little bit, um, tothat, Charles, because we know that, you
(42:36):
know, started to do the research and hewent to different groups, and I wanna
go back to that really quickly because Ithink he has a lot to do with Spiritism.
So Keck then comes up with this message,with his questions, and he's basically
going around to different groups,asking these questions and sometimes
repeating them in different groups.
Mm-hmm.
Just to try them out, right?
(42:57):
Yes.
It's in a very scientificallyminded mindset of saying, I'm
gonna ask this here in this group.
I'm gonna ask this again on thatgroup and see how the answers
jive or if they don't jive.
And from there I'm gonna start,um, you know, figuring out whether
they are really true or not.
Can you talk to us a little bit about,about these experiences that he had?
Charles Kempf (43:17):
Yeah.
So, so he, he wa he saw immediatelythat, uh, all the speeds which are
communicating are not always right.
Okay.
You can, as in the humanity, since thespirits are just, uh, uh, the, the, the
humans after the death, huh, uh, some,uh, even with the best goodwill will say
(43:40):
you something which is completely false.
Okay.
So he, he saw that immediately,uh, in the, that, uh, answers
from the spirit were not alwaysconsistent between themselves.
So there are two criteria he usedto overcome his difficulties.
The first criteria is toanalyze everything with our
intelligence common sense.
(44:02):
Uh, reasoning what makes sense, what isconsistent, what is not consistent, huh?
So the analysis of us human thathe, he, he was doing at that moment.
And the second criteria he madewas what he called the universality
of the teaching of the spirits.
So the more you get spontaneouslyfrom different sources, different
(44:24):
medium, different countries, even, huh?
Second edition of the Speed is book,he got already a lot of feedback from
Europe and even Americas and wherever.
Huh uh, consolidating thanthe teachings themselves, huh?
Uh, because if you are one groupwith one medium and you don't have
this, uh, universal control, huh?
(44:47):
And that was a criteria he appliedfrom the beginning, uh, in order
to, to, to, to reach this solidity,this consistency of the teachings.
Flavio Zanetti (44:58):
So I, I, I love the way you say this, uh, Charles, because I
mean, Keck is, is like a genius, right?
In my, in my i, in my, inmy understanding, right?
Because he was able to get thousandsand thousands of messages Yes.
To put them together, to comparethem, to build on them, and to really
select or filter those that reallymade sense that were talking about
(45:20):
the same things from different mediumsthat do not know each other, right?
Yes.
However, the point, right, I, I wanna makeis even though today people still, right,
when we talk about, oh, we should studykak, we should know more about Kak, right?
Oh, it's too difficult,it's too complicated.
I'm just gonna read something else.
I'm just gonna go, go somewhere else.
(45:40):
Right?
So what's the importance of, for thosefolks that perhaps may be listening
to us that are not spiritists, right?
What's the importance for usto start from the beginning?
Okay.
Maybe talk a little bit about that.
Charles Kempf (45:55):
Uh, uh, to be frank with you, uh, flak, uh, uh, I think
that, uh, this methodology and this regrigorous way that card was working, I
did not see it a lot of times repeated.
Uh, since that time.
There were of course some very important,like, is like, uh, even Gabriel Leon,
(46:22):
some strong followers of course, but they.
With all the respect I have for them,they did not reach the level of kak.
He really incarnated with, how to say, uh,
Flavio Zanetti (46:38):
big brands
Dan Assisi (46:41):
big.
Charles Kempf (46:43):
He, he was programmed to do this work, huh?
Trained, uh, into severalpast lives and so on.
Uh, so, so it, it's really for this,you see, we, we talk about lan, we
talk about the, we talk about whoeverButk is really making the, uh, how
(47:05):
to say is unanimously recognized, uh,within the spiritist, uh, movement.
Huh.
And it is of not by chance.
It's really because he had theskills, these faculties, he
set up this methodology, huh?
Uh, when you, when you look, uh, someprofessors of, uh, epi epidemiology
(47:25):
or scientific methodology, you, you,they are really amazed because a lot
of the principles he used in 1857 forthe Spirit book got only conceptualized
later on, even in the 20th century.
And he was clearly anticipating 50years ahead, more than 50 years ahead.
(47:47):
Uh, some principles which got, let'ssay, consolidated into the science
of the science only much later.
And, and of course it was himself, hisqualities, but also was the help of
the speeds which were assisting him.
So it was really somethingamazing who happened at that time.
And again, I repeat.
(48:08):
Uh, science today, none of thebasic principle of disabilities has
been demonstrated as being falseby the science after 160 years.
So it's really amazing to see howsomething like this can happen.
Dan Assisi (48:24):
A hundred percent.
It is, and that's a great point.
I often say that the Spirit'sbook and that kind of thinking
was, um, was a idea ahead of itstime, but not before its time.
Right?
Yes.
Because it came at the right timeof our history where we were being
mindful when being thoughtful aboutscientific method and, you know, replica
(48:47):
replicability and how to do somethingthat's very coherent and that's just
a fascinating and incredible piece,this whole legacy of Card Connect
that goes well beyond just the books.
Um, you know, here's, we have a guy who'sincredibly well prepared as an educator,
uh, well-rounded scientist in general.
Uh, who, you know, had afantastic support from his wife,
(49:09):
who's no slouch either, right?
I, Emil was also quite brilliant herself,who was able to gather a number of folks
to look credibly and, uh, skepticallyinto this phenomena that were taking
place and, and come up with this bodyof knowledge that we now call Spiritism.
That started with the Spiritsbook officially in 1857.
That, and that's really incredible andwe could talk about this for, for many
(49:32):
hours, but I know that we're reachingto the end of the time, but I wanted
to call us out here and say, you know,as we begin to wrap up, what is one
thing that really stick or stuck withyou about Keck and this whole beginning
of Spiritism that you think is stillvery impactful in today's uh, world?
And we can kind of do a whip around andhave everybody kind of chime in here, but
(49:54):
does anybody wanna lean in and just kindof share with us what they think is, uh,
it's really north worthy and as a goodtakeaway for us to kind of keep in mind?
Flavio Zanetti (50:04):
I, I,
Suzana Simoes (50:06):
Susanna, go ahead, please.
Oh, I'll go.
Um, I just, uh, I think I just want tosay that, like you said, then we could
probably spend like eight hours here liveif we wanna really go deep into our life.
That is so incredibly rich.
Um, I think I just kept thinking,you know, whoever is listening
(50:30):
to us, will that person get thattaste of how special, how unique
this man, uh, is and his mission.
And so what I'm always, um, consideringin my mind is every time we bring a new
(50:51):
idea or concepts, there are challenging.
We face hard opposition.
It's part of the process of evolution.
Uh, new ideas will facea lot of, um, struggles.
Um, he had enemies.
Uh, we see some of the dialoguesin books like what is Spiritualism?
(51:16):
Very in intelligent peoplequestioning the teachings.
So he was a brilliant mind and aman who really, um, dealt with a
number of obstacles, who devoted.
He was prepared up to 50 years oldto, uh, you know, develop all the
(51:40):
resources to undertake the task.
But nevertheless, he was told, andindeed was a huge task, a huge task
that called for a huge man, notonly in terms of intelligence, but
in terms of relating and dealing.
(52:01):
With kindness and with humbleness, notonly with his fans, but especially with
his enemies, giving them the respect.
And he was well known for knowing howto dialogue and how to navigate this
world, which is, you know, with allthe, the, the disparities, with all
(52:25):
the contradictions, with all the, thequestioning, which is something that
we today, uh, struggle so much to do.
So I think that he was, uh, pretty huge,has my incredible admiration, especially
when it comes to that someone who isstarting, launching something that really
(52:47):
revolutionize the world with, with theunderstanding of life, what life is, and
all the implications that comes with the.
Revelation that came to the spirits.
Flavio Zanetti (53:05):
Yeah.
And, and I thank you, Susan.
This is, this is great.
This is brilliant.
Uh, um, what I'd like to add is, whileit's really important for us to continue
studying Kak, there's, there's, spenda whole life studying the works of
this, you know, amazing individual.
But I wanna say that whileSpiritism started with Keck,
it did not end with Keck.
(53:28):
Like, this is animportant, you know, point.
He gave us all the tools, all theresources to kick off this new thing
that we call Body of Knowledge.
This new philosophy, this new idea,this transformational, uh, uh, uh, uh,
uh, concept that changes our lives.
And luckily, other authors, otherfolks are coming at the tail end to
(53:52):
contribute to corroborate what he said.
And to add additional ideas, right?
I think it's important for us to,to mention that obviously, right?
We're gonna stick with the foundation,which card brought us, but as a
house is being built, right, thefoundation, then you can build
the house on top of it, right?
How tall, how why you build thehouse will be up to us, right?
(54:13):
To go after, to study, to getknowledge and really gain, gain
more through other authors as well.
Dan Assisi (54:21):
And before we, we go to Charles for some final comments here too.
Uh, and we're really gratefulthat you're with us here today.
Charles, thanks for being here.
I just wanna highlight that as well.
I think that what's really amazingabout Card's World Work and his
legacy is that Spiritism is, isreally not about the content.
(54:42):
It's really about the method, right?
Because this method of inquiry, thismethod, method of asking questions, of
looking to the outside world and try tomake sense of things and learning for
ourselves in checking different sources,it's something that keeps on giving.
If we were to lose all those books thatKeck published today, but retain his
(55:04):
mindset, we could get all of them back.
Right.
And I think that's the one powerfulmessage that sticks with me, that
Spiritism does to us, and that has done tomy life, is ask these questions, try and
see if there is this universal control.
If this, if, if this truth shows upin different places, and then bring
it back to us and say, how, howwill I behave differently now that
(55:25):
I know that I'm in immortal spirit?
How does that change my behavior?
How does that change my day to day?
So I absolutely love the example thatcard gave us, and I'm still very much in
awe on his ability to communicate sometopics that are so complex, so clearly
and so simply, which is typically, uh, youknow, um, the mark of a great educator.
So that's really just really nice of him.
(55:46):
Um, so thanks for sharing,uh, things with us, Charles.
So tell us, Charles, whatis, what is one big takeaway?
Um, after all your research, uh,about Kak dot e, it still strikes
you as something incredible.
Charles Kempf (56:00):
Yeah, so I thank you for the statements fully share.
Uh, what, uh, Susan, uh, uh, flak andYuan just said that it's, it's, uh, true.
Uh, what could I add?
I think when, when, when we look alittle bit what Kakar has done, uh, he,
he came in, uh, at the right time, huh?
(56:22):
When, uh, after the French Revolutionwhere there was some liberty of
expression, also some, a littlebit more independence towards
the official religions, huh.
Uh, and, and also some other, uh,scientists like Dekar, like, uh, August
(56:43):
with a positivism de developing themethodology of science itself and,
and what Dekar do in all that ambient.
He was seeing turning tables.
Huh.
Uh, very simple phenomenon.
And he saw immediately that there issomething, uh, extremely, uh, deep behind.
(57:04):
And he, he had the lucidity, uh,because science and religion were
fighting once against the other.
Uh huh.
What did still, huh?
Still, still, still.
Yeah.
He took the science and took, okay.
What is good in science methodology?
Huh?
The, uh, the, the, theinvestigation, experiments and so on.
(57:30):
But then he moved a, a lot of, uh,things which in science are not
so good, like materialism or some.
Sometime a little bit.
Pride change resistance as a susaniwealth, uh, uh, thought he also
(57:51):
took, looked at the religions.
Okay, what is good in the religionAt the beginning of the gospel, he
explains this very clearly, is the,the moral teachings love one another.
Do unto the other, what youwould like to do on, onto you.
All these, uh, moral, uh, laws,which are universal that you can
find in any religion in the world.
(58:13):
But then here moved also.
What is not so good inthe religion, like, uh,
thek, my religion is the best.
And, uh, out of my religion,there is no salvation.
(58:33):
All these things, all the rituals,all these things shift away.
And by taking the best.
Of the two, which were enemies,he sought something out of the
box and made something new, a newconcept, which is called spiritism.
And that is why until today, even thescientists are studying, uh, this type
(58:55):
of subject, they have difficultiesin to categorize spiritism, even
within the spiritist movement.
Those people are telling youSpiritism means a science.
No, it's a religion.
No, it's a philosophy.
Uh, it's not a religion in thesense of the dogma and so on.
It's not a science in the senseof, uh, pride, uh, materialism.
(59:17):
It, it is also not a philosophyin the, for the type of philosophy
which are negative or eveninfluenced also by materialism.
It is simply somethingnew out of this box.
It is really a disruption.
Uh, this modern, uh, wording thatwe are using today that he brought
150 years ago, and that is stillnot yet today fully understood.
(59:41):
Neither my science nor bydisabilities themselves sometimes
did not understand that, and thatwas really something brilliant.
And I like what you said.
Dan Spiritism came, uh, beforeits time, but at his its time.
And, uh, the, the, theevidence of it, what is it?
When you look in France,the Spirits book still sell.
(01:00:03):
You have 10 different, uh,publishers and it's selling
several thousands, uh, of exemplar.
Uh, still today.
I go sometimes and put, you know,we have this book box in the street.
I don't know if you have the same in us.
I put the spirit book there.
I come the next day.
It's not there anymore.
Huh?
(01:00:24):
It they put again, again, again, again.
And, uh, still 150 years ago.
You have so many people lookingand we put it also for free in,
in, in electronically, uh, reading,trying to understand, uh, this, uh,
revolutionary concept that he brought.
(01:00:44):
And that is not for, uh, really the thingwhich I think, uh, we still need a little
bit of time to understand this fully.
Suzana Simoes (01:00:54):
Absolutely.
Uh, Charles, before we close and Ipass it back to Dan, I just wanna, um,
acknowledge the work that you were doing.
I know with other folks, uh,the research work, uh, on Card's
Life, it's much appreciated.
So our gratitude, because it's, uh,It's, it's precious and it's priceless.
(01:01:15):
So I just wanna make sure that I saythat to you and just wonder if people
want to get in touch with you or theywanna know a little bit more about that
research or what's going on currently.
What is the best way to find
Charles Kempf (01:01:30):
out?
Oh, uh, I, I, I think one, one good,uh, is a website I just mentioned, huh?
Mm-hmm.
Project Eck at the Universityof Jewish Defora in French,
the French Pist Movement.
Uh, we also organized sincemore than 20 years now, what we
called, uh, LOP and Encyclopedia.
(01:01:51):
So we put all the information we haveavailable, uh, into this encyclopedia.
Uh, of course there are some books.
So, uh, we wrote a newbiography in French.
Uh, we contributed a lot to this, uh,new and, and, and quite some extensive
biographies, uh, in, uh, in Portuguese.
(01:02:11):
Uh, because how to say, to bring, uh,the, the more complete information,
because now with the digitalization ofthe archives, with all these thousands
of original documents, we found, uh,we, we are really, uh, also changing,
uh, it's, uh, how to say a, a quantumjump into the information and the
(01:02:34):
primary sources that we got from Kak.
And of course, all thisis done completely.
Uh, I mean, the rights of this bookis going only to the institution.
Huh?
Which is, uh, Uh, culturalCenter, ARD Valley Monte.
I don't know if someone ofyou knew Eduardo Valley Monte.
I was so happy to, to, to meethim in Paris in 2004 when, uh, we
(01:02:58):
had the Congress and this idea ofmaking these researchers, putting it
available for free to, to everyonewho is interested in is, uh, what
we are still continuing and seeking.
And, uh, I thank you, uh, Susan for,uh, your appreciation and a lot of
people getting also the same feedback,uh, admiring the work we are doing,
(01:03:21):
uh, in a total dis interested way.
Dan Assisi (01:03:26):
That's awesome.
Yep.
So thank you, Charles.
Thank you Flavia.
Thank you Susanna, for being here.
It's great to be in this journeywith you for our six year together.
Um, I just want to thank everybody whois watching or listening as well to
Spiritist Conversations, which is aproduction of the Spiritist Institute.
If you enjoy today's conversation,please share that with a friend.
(01:03:50):
He helps us get the word out and, uh,folks, find some great content that
we think, uh, it's being producedhere and to revisit past episodes.
You can go to YouTube,you can go to Facebook.
You can also subscribe at yourfavorite podcast platform and
not miss one single episode.
We are thrilled to be here with youtoday, and we look forward to seeing
(01:04:10):
you in our next conversation in acouple of weeks where we're gonna talk
about healing in Spiritist passes.
So thanks for being here, andhave a great night everyone.
Thank you everyone.
Thank you so
Charles Kempf (01:04:22):
much.
Thank
Flavio Zanetti (01:04:22):
you everyone.
Take care.
Thanks.
Hello everyone and welcome to episode 36 of Spiritist
Conversations, a show where we sitdown with friends to talk about the
world through a Spiritist lens in aninformal unplugged and unscripted way.
I am Dan Assisi and I am very excitedto be joined by my friends Suzana
(00:35):
Simoes and Flavio Zanetti here today.
How are you guys doing?
Suzana Simoes (00:40):
Hey guys.
Nice to see you again.
Hello, everybody.
Hello.
Flavio Zanetti (00:45):
Hello, Dan.
Sue.
It's great to be here.
Great to see you guys
Suzana Simoes (00:50):
DId you say 36, Dan?
Dan Assisi (00:52):
Episode 36.
Yeah.
Wow.
Yes.
This is also year six.
This is the sixth yearthat we're doing this.
So, um, I still have very fondmemories --I think it was in Georgia
--you guys don't remember this,but I accosted you when I showed up
with a microphone and saif, what ifwe just record this conversation?
So, lovely journey.
(01:14):
Excited to be here with youand kickstart this new year.
Suzana Simoes (01:18):
Yeah, we, our relationship is lasting
Dan Assisi (01:22):
So far, so far....
I am also very excited thatall of us got the memo today
somehow and dressed in black.
So, you know, this is justkind of how we roll these days.
We seem to be in the samewavelength even though we're in
different parts of the country.
So, excited to jump in with you guys.
(01:44):
Let's do this.
Suzana Simoes (01:45):
Who do we have with us today?
Dan Assisi (01:47):
Ah, and our special guest for today's episode
is our friend Charles Kempf.
And he is a researcher, a speaker, andjust a friend of Spiritist Conversations.
He's joining us directly from France.
Welcome back, Charles.
Thanks for being on the program
Charles Kempf (02:03):
again.
Thanks for having me.
Thank you, Dan.
Thank you, Susanna.
Thank you, Flavio.
Very happy to be here again withyou talking about card, which is a
subject I appreciate particularly, huh?
So, okay.
Let's try to transmit some ofthe details of, who he really is.
(02:25):
Who was really card and why is heafter more than, one and a half
centuries still so known and moreand more known by the way everywhere
in on this planet right now.
Dan Assisi (02:40):
Well said Charles.
Very well said.
I think it's a great introduction.
But before we begin, I justwanna remind folks that Spiritist
Conversations is broadcast onmultiple channels on the interwebs.
So if you want to join ourconversation, we would love for you
to find your way into our officialch Spiritist conversation channels,
(03:01):
because the comments you may beputting on different channels don't
always make their way back to us.
So if you do want to be heard, ifyou do want to participate, make sure
that you come in and just say helloon the chat, on YouTube, on Facebook,
or whatever it is that you are.
Cuz we are really excitedto, to have you here with us.
Just a, a friendlyhousekeeping there, but, okay.
(03:25):
So who is this Alon card guy?
Guy who, who's this guy?
Everybody's gonna stay quiet today.
Suzana Simoes (03:36):
It's just hard to know where we start, but I, but I would, yes.
He's, let me just say that he is the coiffire, the man who put together what we
call today, the spirituals philosophy.
How about that for an opening.
Dan Assisi (03:55):
That is wonderful.
That is wonderful.
And thanks for bringing,bringing your dog as well.
So
Suzana Simoes (04:01):
we love your dog.
He's always around.
I
he's
Dan Assisi (04:04):
part, he's part of spiritualist conversation.
So you wouldn't be aspiritualist conversations Adam.
Suzana Simoes (04:08):
I know, I know,
Flavio Zanetti (04:10):
but I'd like to say that the, even though we say card
really compiled Spiritism, right?
He didn't really invent Spiritism.
Correct.
That was not somethingthat he invented per se.
So we cannot say he was the inventor.
(04:30):
But rather he was the one thatcompiled everything he studied and
put together in order for us to todayconsume this than we call Spiritism.
Dan Assisi (04:41):
And that in itself, it's a wonderful perspective, right?
Flavia, cuz I think that'ssomething that sets Spiritism a
little bit apart from differentways of looking at life generally.
You have somebody like, whether it'sa philosopher or a religious person
who receives some sort of like specialknowledge or revelation and that
person then becomes like a prophet,becomes a starter of something.
(05:04):
But with card it, it didn'texactly happen that way.
He didn't really set aside, an intentionto say, I'm gonna start something new.
He was just really looking into things.
And as a matter of fact, Alan Keckis not really even his real name.
So maybe this is, we kindof punt this to Charles A.
(05:24):
Little bit and say, Charles as ourresident, French slash kak expert,
what, can you tell us a little bitabout Kak to start that conversation?
Charles Kempf (05:35):
Yeah, so let's go.
He, his true name was
He was born in Leon in 1804 Uhhuh.
And he grew up, was educated inSwitzerland by in pastor, educational
(05:58):
institute in Ido in Switzerland.
And then he had a normalcareer, I would say educator.
Huh He had an institution atthat time giving for, for young
children and also older children.
And He only got aware or startedsome investigation about spirit
(06:26):
spiritualist or Spiritistphenomenon when he was 50 years old.
Huh?
So it was in 1855 that hestarted to investigate, huh?
And the first book, huh?
The spirits book was published the18th of April 1857, which means
(06:49):
something like 165 years ago.
A little bit more now, huh?
And he dedicated the rest and therest of his life and his his dis
carnation which was 31st of March, 1869.
So he dedicated all that timein investigating, going more in
(07:10):
depth, writing other books givinglecture, visiting centers and so on.
Alan Keck was only, let's saylast, 11 or 12 years of his life.
The first 50 years he was how tosay, n normal life in the area
(07:33):
of education in Paris at least.
And until 1840.
And then in the 1850, he had aperiod where it was he had quite
some difficulties also materially.
He got the necessityto sustain his family.
And he found then this new wayas his mission started only at
(07:55):
the final phase of his life.
So as you clearly he, he, he wasnot always put himself made very
clear that the ideas in the Spiritsbook, for instance are the ideas of
(08:17):
the spiritual we're communicating.
He just made the questions okay.
And the answers he transcribed inthe spirits book are the answers
which were given by the spirits.
So this means that the spirit'sbody of knowledge came from
the spiritual world and wereabsolutely not his personal ideas.
(08:38):
And even on some topics likefor instance, reincarnation.
He had some, he needed sometime to be convinced himself.
The idea, the idea came veryclearly from the spiritual world,
and then he ended up accepting it.
Why?
Because it was presented in arational, explained, logical way.
(09:01):
Not just a statement.
You must be, believe or not.
No.
With all the argumentsbehind it in order to Oh yes.
This really makes sense.
And accepting it then through theunderstanding of of the arguments.
Dan Assisi (09:19):
And that's a great point you bring Charles, because I also
think that's the reason why thespirits also said, nah, nah, nah, you
don't get to put your name on this.
Right.
This is not don't use your, your regularname because this is not your ideas.
This is the spirit's idea.
And therefore we want you to usea name from a previous incarnation
(09:43):
that you had so that it's notconfused with whom you are today
cuz they're doing the heavy lifting.
He did have the wonderful chanceof organizing that, those responses
in an easy to understand format.
But I think right from the beginningwe get this really clear message that
is the spirit's teachings, right?
The first work is the spirit's book.
It's not card's book, it's notreveal's book, it's the spirit's book.
(10:06):
So it's a really different wayand approach of bringing this new
body of knowledge forward, right?
Saying the owner of this thing,it's not here in the physical plane.
I think that's very different, right?
Very unusual.
Suzana Simoes (10:19):
Exactly.
I have a a point in our curiosity thatI want to bring and actually see what
Charles has to say and for all of youas well when it comes to the names.
We mentioned here that Alan Kak was a namethat he used in a previous incarnation.
(10:40):
And Charles start by saying his namewas Denizard Hypolite Leon Rivail,
but we also find Hypolite DenizardRivaill written in different places.
We can be a little confusing.
For someone who does not know,I mean, not only two names,
(11:01):
but seems like three names.
What's the story behind that?
Charles Kempf (11:05):
Yes, it's confusing.
And the second confusion on top ofthis is that Poli, there are five
or six different ways spell it.
So the ZA
is the one which is shown inhis birth register certificate.
(11:29):
And that should be the official one.
Now we have to understandthat it was in 1804.
Huh?
You remember that?
French Revolution came a littlebit after the US Revolution.
It was 1789.
So it was only 15 years later.
Huh.
And at that time so before it was Theregisters were hold by the church.
(11:57):
And after the revolution, of course,they had to be all the infrastructure
necessary with the staff also to make
the revolution.
And that is explaining why at that timethe, the training of those people and
(12:17):
so on was maybe not yet so optimal.
And that it was, let'ssay, uh, uh, not so formal.
And, uh, when we talk about whichis the, the, the most known one,
this is by the way, the one that.
Uh, himself was using when hewas writing or signing a letter
(12:41):
or putting his name when he wasmarried, for instance, and so on.
He always put in, in this sec se sequence.
So it's not only his case that happenedat, for instance, uh, we have other cases.
Alexander Dulan, his name was notAlexander, it was a different name,
but he changed and put the nameAlexander, which sometimes gave a
(13:03):
little bit confusion because youneed to have judgment of a judge.
Mm-hmm.
Saying no, it is the same person, youknow, just to certify the identity.
But that was simply how to say,uh, the status at that time.
Today, nowadays it's a little bit morerigorous and more complicated, but at
that time it was a little bit more free.
And then Alan Keck, of course,uh, rev was quite known in France
(13:27):
in the education he put severalcontribution for the education system.
Not only in France, but alsoin Belgium or countries.
He developed a lot of Pelo methods.
So he had some, he was known as aneducator and if he would've signed
the spirits book with, uh, Revis,one could have said, eh, he is using
(13:48):
the fact he's known in an area inorder to promote something else.
So that's one reasonwhy he changed the name.
He used a pseudonym in fact, butuh, he never was hiding himself.
Everybody was knew that, uh, AlanKeck and Levi was the same person.
And the certain reason was also atthe beginning, you know, when he
(14:09):
published the Spirits book, uh, hestill was working, uh, had to do some
jobs in order to sustain his family.
And two of these jobs werein, uh, a Catholic, uh, uh,
publishing company, Pego, whichwas, uh, from Leon and in Paris.
(14:30):
And the second one he was workingfor, uh, a newspaper, which was
Luve, which was also Catholic.
So at the end, they knew it and theysomehow, he lost his jobs, of course.
Mm-hmm.
Because he published the Spirit book.
But at least it gave him some buffer,uh, a little year, uh, to find some
(14:50):
other ways, uh, to survive in his life.
So that, that is probably also thesecond reason why he adopted his student.
Dan Assisi (14:59):
Interesting.
Yeah, and that's aninteresting thing, right?
Because nowadays a lot of criticismin general in the world is, oh,
somebody's trying to make moneyoff of spirituality, right?
So how is that guy cashing in on that?
But.
For him, it was quite the opposite.
Right?
Cuz he actually put a lot of whatevermoney he had, especially at the
end of the life into this thing.
So he w it wasn't really agreat financial proposition.
(15:22):
Right.
He ended up spending quite a bitof his money into, into this thing.
Is that right, Charles?
Charles Kempf (15:27):
Correct, yes.
He, he was pragmatic, huh?
Because, uh, you can give for free whatyou receive for free, but publishing
a book is not for free publishing theSpiritist magazine is not for free, so
you have to find a way to, to finance it.
And what we knew is, uh, for instance,sorry, he bought, uh, property
which was, uh, villas in Paris.
(15:48):
Huh.
Which today is worth only one flood.
There is worth a millionEuro dollar or whatsoever.
And there's something like50 floods in that area.
So you, you, you can have an ideaof the value of what he had at
that time, but that enabled him.
Uh, to make some, uh, loans.
So he, he was, uh, gettingmonnet something like, uh, 25,000
(16:13):
Frans, uh, on his own risk, huh?
Giving his property as a guaranteefor the loan in order to, to finance.
Uh, because at the beginning, only theSpirits book and the Spirits magazine
did not bring the financial equilibrium.
And that was, uh, always a pro, uh,uh, concern of him in order to make the
(16:34):
thing, uh, giving the sustainabilityto it, huh uh, but, uh, he was clearly,
as you told, uh, Dan, putting Monetfrom his own pocket, uh, into the, the
Spiritism even, uh, af when the thinggot a li a little bit better equilibrium.
Financially speaking, I think
Flavio Zanetti (16:54):
it's important to mention that publishing a book today
while difficult right, it's not,not as costly as he was on Keck, was
publishing right in back in 1857.
So the, the amount of money and, andof course the work required to publish
back then was certain multiple, right?
Yes.
And if we compare to today, right?
So way more difficult back
Charles Kempf (17:15):
then than it is today.
Yeah, it was quite costly.
Yeah.
The typography was letter byletter, line by line, page by page.
And then, uh, 30, 18 or 36 pages, uh, intoa big frame and printing France versa.
And then, uh, Uh, folding and cutting.
Uh, so, and, and you had to dothousand or 2000 or 3000 at once.
(17:38):
So it was, it's, it's a little bitlike, uh, publishing before the,
today we have on demand, uh, youcan, uh, publish one at a good price.
Huh.
But at that time, uh, publishinga book, it was, uh, thousands and
thousands of, uh, French ranks, huh.
Uh, equivalent today to, to, to Euro.
It's a little bit what we knew.
(17:58):
I don't remember, I don't knowif you remember the first books
edited by the InternationalDisabilities Council, for instance.
Huh Uh, it was a huge investment, huh.
Today it's of course much, much easier.
But at that, uh, when you go only 20years ago, it was much more difficult.
So when you go 160 years ago, it'suh, Even more critical though.
(18:21):
Absolutely.
Dan Assisi (18:23):
Yeah.
And one of the things I think it'sreally interesting is cuz we're all
a little bit card deck today, right?
In Spiritism, cuz we, we allend up putting our own resources
into these things, right?
When nobody here gets paid.
Um, and Spiritist conversations, as youcan see, is a top-notch professional
production, you know, full of, uh,really, really skilled professionals
(18:44):
that really, um, do this for a living.
Maybe not.
Uh, but we are happy to, to freelygive that which we've freely received.
Um, uh, Charles, so one of thethings, and, and for the group here
too, one of the things that I thinkmost interesting about Keck, it's
actually not Keck itself, but how Keckbecame Keck, or why Keck became Keck.
(19:05):
I mean, how does, howdoes become Keck, right?
So how did, how did he get exposedto the whole spiritual piece and
decided that he was going to.
You know, actually study this, cuzI think that in the beginning he
was not really excited about, uh,all this new phenomena taking place.
Charles Kempf (19:23):
Yes.
So, so we, we are doing quite some, uh,researchers right now into the mes Mesmer.
Mesmerism, mesmerism mes.
Dan Assisi (19:33):
Yeah.
Charles Kempf (19:34):
And, and amongst this, uh, movement of, uh,
Mesmerists, there were two trends.
One of this trend was spiritualists.
So these people were already around18, 20, 18, 30, 18, uh, uh, 40.
Totally aware that, uh, some person inTheistic state could get some information
(20:00):
and even talk with, uh, spirits cellsof people, which were dis discriminated.
So, uh, clearly there were some clearsigns and experiments, uh, in that way.
Uh, one, two, or three decades before.
Huh.
And then of course we know that1848 was ville in the us, uh,
(20:21):
the turning table and so on.
Mm-hmm.
Was, uh, studying a little bit.
And, and he was, when he had somequestions, for instance, about health, the
health system was not what it was today.
Yeah.
So when you had a health problem, you,you went of course to a doctor, but also
to some novelist, uh, uh, person in orderto give some, to receive some hints about
(20:47):
what to do to, to recover your health.
So he, we have some evidences that he wasalso sometimes asking help from, uh, some
novelist, uh, which was, uh, called Mar.
And that was in 1840.
So, uh, I think since when he arrived inParis around 18 22, 18 23, uh, he was, Uh,
(21:10):
interested in this, uh, area, but he didnot, uh, uh, how to say, engage himself
personally in more efforts in it becausehis task at that moment was, uh, pedagogy
was education, educational system.
Uh, and, uh, when then turning tablecame, uh, at, uh, in France around
(21:33):
very beginning, 18 50, 18 49, uh,it, it, it got really, uh, developed.
But again, he was not, uh, involvedin it before, uh, 1854 when he heard
about, and 1855 when he, for the firsttime went to see, uh, the house of,
(21:54):
uh, c of, uh, Uhhuh, where he, for thefirst time could see a table moving and
answering to some questions and so on.
And since he was, uh, Uh, from thepast method, not trained to observe
the phenomenon of nature and so on, hesaw immediately that it was authentic.
(22:16):
That there was no trick, no lever,no, uh, rope or elastic or whatsoever.
And, uh, he also analyzed immediatelythat some of the answer which were
received are totally out of thecapacities and of the knowledge
of the person which were present.
So that was then the trigger.
Who made him change?
(22:37):
Uh, it was not card becomingcard, it was rev becoming card.
Yeah.
But
Flavio Zanetti (22:43):
to mention Charles, that the turning tables was a
phenomenon back then in France orall over the world, for that matter.
Yes, yes.
Together to watch thesetables turning in everywhere.
Right.
They were, they were, youknow, had some newspapers.
Dan Assisi (22:58):
No Netflix at the time, right?
No hbo, right?
No movies,
Flavio Zanetti (23:03):
no social
Charles Kempf (23:04):
media.
Like this is no radios, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and so it was, uh, like, sorry,
Suzana Simoes (23:14):
I said, who needs all that when the tables are flying around?
Dan Assisi (23:18):
I know, I know.
We, we gotta talk about this thing,like this sting table phenomena, right?
Because the, the, the, the salons werelike in vogue at that time, right?
So, mm-hmm.
So, and, and if, if you have neverbeen, um, uh, if you had never been
connected to the history of the turningtables, people would sit around in
a room and sometimes they would puttheir hands on the table and the tables
(23:41):
would start to move on their own.
And of course there were many callsof like, this is fake and so forth.
But in other, in other,uh, places, it was not.
And so like the whole questionof whether this is really
happening or not was one that was
Charles Kempf (23:56):
bubbling at the time.
Exactly, yes.
But, but he did not theparticularity of kak, he did not
stay to the phenomenon itself.
He, he did not really wasmaking it as a joke or whatever.
He immediately saw, okay, it's moving.
There is no doubt about that.
Uh, he saw it from his own eyes,uh, repeatedly, uh, several times.
(24:19):
But then he went more to the, okaynow, so what the tables are moving?
What is moving the table?
Who is moving the table?
Who is giving the intelligence answersthat are coming through the table?
And this is really, uh, he wentimmediately to this next step.
Huh?
The looking for the cause and alsolooking for all the philosophical,
(24:41):
ethical, and so on, consequences about it.
And that is basically whatwe have in the Spirits book.
So it, it's really thefirst book who came.
In a, not just describing fact thetable moved, uh, each time or white
time or, uh, it was not just the facts.
You know, he, he went much, much further,uh, from the, already in the first book.
(25:05):
And, and that is why today thisbook is still one of the most sold.
Huh?
The, the Spirits book or the medium's bookKarthik wrote the medium's book is still,
today's the best book about mediumship.
Huh?
Even, even though it ismore than 160 years old.
And that is really, uh,when he saw the table, huh?
(25:25):
It then came the connection becausehe came on earth reincarnating
already with his mission, butthen, uh, when the mission started,
uh, this connection was made.
He got aware and, and he decided tofully dedicate himself quite quickly,
uh, to investigate deeper, uh, thisphenomenon and all the consequences of it.
(25:47):
And that is why Kak is really.
Uh, made these, uh, five books plus thesplit magazine, plus the smallest booklet.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, in a really comprehensive waythat has, okay, Sheik Aer made
more quantity of books and so on.
But how to say everything was already,uh, bound and, uh, still today recognized.
(26:11):
Uh, there is no one today whocame and said, look, this, and
that is not consistent here.
There is an contradiction andinconsistency, uh, into what Kak
said, and, and, and we know how muchscience has evolved in the meantime.
But science did never demonstrate thatany fundamental point that were came
(26:32):
through the spirits, uh, is wrong.
Huh?
The, the spirit, the spiritbody of knowledge or in paradigm
is still, uh, solid today.
Nothing has been demonstratinghas been, uh, false in it,
and that is really remarkable.
Dan Assisi (26:48):
Yeah, it really is.
And I wanna double click on whatyou said there, Charles, cuz I
think it's incredible, right?
So what we have is we have thisphenomena taking place in Paris.
Tables are moving, people are beginningto ask questions of table or the tables
right on the objects that are moving.
And the tables begin to answer thesequestions by way of like, go to the left.
If it's a yes, go to the right if it'sa no and later they get a little bit
(27:12):
fancier and say, knock once for a,knock twice for B, which probably took
a very long time to get an answer right?
But obviously the point is, and thisis where I like one of, uh, card's,
uh, phrases that really stuck withme when I first 30 spiritism, is
for every effect there is a causeand every intelligent effect.
(27:33):
Requires an intelligent cause.
So if the answers to these questionsthat are being asked of a table
are intelligent, if the, the tablethe table quote, I'm doing air
quotes, right, air quotes here.
If the table is able toanswer intelligent questions.
And we know that a table does not have abrain, so clearly somebody is behind this.
(27:53):
So what does that mean?
And when we begin to realizethat, oh, hold on a second.
There are the consciousness ofthe departed, so to speak, which
we call spirits, are actuallyanswering these questions.
I think that's the genius of Kardex.
So, so tell, tell usabout the spirit world.
What does, what does it mean to,to be discarnate or without a body?
Right?
(28:13):
And from there we have this, somepacking of these wonderful books
that you are talking about, thesefive books we call the codification
that changed everything, right?
And that's amazing cuz that's a differentway of thinking instead of just enjoying.
Sorry, Sirius tried to talk to mehere on my phone, all of a sudden.
Could hear you could if, could hear her.
Um, but the, the interesting thingis why everybody was looking for a, a
(28:35):
little bit of, of fun and just kind oftrying to figure out what was happening.
He was diving a little bit deeper andtried to understand the consequences
of, of these communication piece.
Suzana Simoes (28:44):
Let me get, um, kind of where you stop there, Dan and just
kind of check with, uh, Charles, Imean some, some of the, the details
of this beginning, um, like Dan wastalking about that he went and he start
observing and he start to investigate.
(29:06):
And I think I read somewhere that atsome point he was interested but even,
you know, because he was such a busyman and he had other things, he was,
um, think, you know, Not yet a hundredpercent into it until he received 15
notebooks of communications and he wasasked to organize those, uh, 50 notebooks.
(29:34):
Is this something that wehave more information about?
Is this something that is, you know,it's a, it, it just seemed to me the
time that I read that was actuallyrelevant and change a little bit of
the nature of the meetings at the time,from just places where people would
go for, for fun to like really givingthe meetings a different purpose.
Charles Kempf (30:00):
Yeah.
So this, uh, the source for this 15notebooks with questions and answers,
uh, does not come from himself.
Huh?
Okay.
Yeah.
What comes himself is what,uh, has been compiled by Pier
Guide Marine, the postwar.
Which were published only in 1889.
So 20 years after his death, huh?
(30:22):
20 years after it was spent.
Hundred years of the FrenchRevolution and so on and so on.
Uh, but, uh, what, what, what is Sure,what Kadak is confirming that he was
going to several groups because therewas some 10 or 20 groups in Paris.
And since he really took the thingseriously, the groups where the people,
(30:45):
uh, were just looking to the, to thephenomenon more seriously, uh, he took
over somehow, naturally the, the, thecontrol of the, of the meetings because he
came with the questions already prepared.
And he really managed the, the, theagenda of, of, of all the meetings.
(31:06):
Of course, some other group,uh, were continuing for
curiosity for fun or whatsoever.
And those groups, he left,uh, a lead bit aside.
But then he was knowninto these other groups.
And then for sure, uh, this personfrom the groups, they had some notes or
what was it, 50 or not, we don't know.
They, uh, when they saw that hewas compiling and doing, uh, deep
(31:28):
investigations, they for sure gave himthe, all the materials they gathered,
even before he joined in 1955.
So, but that it was 50 notebooks asthis does not come from I see himself.
Mm-hmm.
So it's an information that we have totake as he, let's say, more generically,
it is possible that, uh, uh, the biofirst biograph like our resource.
(31:51):
Mm-hmm.
He was knowing several person werestill alive, that did no cardiac
very well when he was alive.
And it was maybe some verbal,uh, transmitted information.
But we got a lot ofdocuments, uh, recently, yeah.
Since 2018, something like two or3000 documents, but unfortunately
(32:11):
we did not go get his notebooks.
They are still mm-hmm.
Missing a lot of, uh, information.
And let's see if, if oneday we, we, we get to them.
So, but for sure he, he took a naturalleadership because of the seriousness,
uh, and also all the engagementhe brought into these sessions.
Flavio Zanetti (32:33):
I want, I wanted to, um, to, uh, bring something, because
oftentimes we talk about Kak, andobviously Kak is the compiler of
Spiritism as we know, but there werea lot of people behind the scenes
also helping him, namely, right.
Emil Gabriel, which was his wife.
Right.
And, uh, not much is talked about her.
(32:54):
So, Charles, do you have any,anything that's, um, It's
interesting to share with us here.
What, for the folks that are either,you know, watching or listening to,
listening to us live or afterwards moreon, uh, his wife, his great partner.
Yes.
That really motivatedhim to continue, right.
Uh, for the, uh, spiritist magazineand the books and all those things.
Charles Kempf (33:17):
Yes.
So really also they came,she incarnated something like
eight to nine years before him.
So she was a little bit older than him.
And, uh, they married in, uh, 1832.
So Kadak was, uh, uh, 28 yearsand she was already 36, uh,
(33:38):
years old when they married.
But of course it was afeat from the beginning.
Huh.
We found the first letter he wrote to her.
Wow.
After the first meeting.
So it is an information that is now.
Uh, available in French and in Portuguese,and I think also, uh, if not yet, uh,
(33:59):
soon in Spanish into a website, uh, whichis called, uh, pro, pro Project Ek, huh?
From the University, federal Universityin Brazil of Jewish city of Jewish defora.
And, uh, they, it's really very well done.
When you go there, you canfind this letter, you can see
the original, you can see thetranscriptions and the translations,
(34:22):
hopefully also one day in English.
Uh, and, and there, when you read whathe writes to her and, and, and the
second letter also, we don't have heranswer swear, unfortunately, but we
have the first letter he sent to herand the second letter he sent to her.
And the, the letter also was sent bythe mother of card to the, to, to Emily.
(34:43):
You see that there was, uh, how tosay, Uh, perfect fit connection.
The beginning.
Yeah.
And, and we can see from all the,the, the difficulties they passed,
uh, as river and then also Kar shthey were also always extremely bound.
So Emily sometimes met putting somepressure on him, but, uh, always
(35:06):
behind in order to, to, to help.
And she was also fully, uh,sharing, uh, these, uh, studies
and uh, uh, giving their opinion.
And we can see from the multiple letterwe found now between them as Revis, uh,
and also later as, because when he wastraveling in 1962, for instance, uh,
(35:30):
there is where we got all the letters.
Huh?
And from this weekend, the Jews, huh?
All what she was doingwhen they were together.
So,
Dan Assisi (35:38):
and, you know, and as a public service announcement, Charles,
we should just say for the youngerpeople listening to us, the letters are
paper, text, uh, text messages, writtenon paper that people used to send.
They're back in the day.
Just wanna level set herefor, for a younger crowd.
Charles Kempf (35:54):
Yeah.
Okay.
It's, uh, they says theancestor of the email, huh?
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah, yeah.
Yes.
And, and, uh, so clearlythey had this, uh, uh, very
complimentary relationship, huh.
And there is a, a discourse,which was done by Gabrielle
(36:16):
Dulan, uh, Gabrielle Dolan.
Now he was, uh, he, he knew cardbecause he was born in 1857.
So I think only one monthbefore was the Spirit book.
And, uh, when, uh, so Emilysurvived card, uh, he died in 1869.
She died in 1883.
Huh.
So, uh, she continued the work and,uh, really, uh, did all what she can in
(36:41):
order to pursue, uh, give continuationto the work, uh, OFPI Man card.
And, uh, when Gabrielle Dolan iscommenting, making this, uh, speech,
uh, at the funeral of, uh, Emily,there is really what, what, how you
can see an appreciation giving fromsomeone who knew them, who saw them,
(37:03):
uh, together during a, a good time.
Suzana Simoes (37:07):
It's a great thing that he had such a, uh, an incredible
and close partner, especially giventhe difficulties and the challenges
that he faced in his, uh, life.
I think that's something that's kind of.
Uh, uh, we're talking about,I mean, we did mention money.
We, you know, play about the money, buthe was accused of many different things,
(37:31):
even, you know, making money out ofspirituals amongst many other things.
So having that person next to himwas certainly comforting, giving
the, the level of struggles thathe encountered doing his work.
Dan Assisi (37:47):
Yes, exactly.
Great point too.
And, and, and Charles, I'm gonnapiggyback on Susanna's here because at
some point it looks like Reveal, right?
Actually has some fame as an educator.
He had a couple of books published,I think in, in, in French grammar
that was used throughout the country.
So his professional life, he wasactually, you know, later on, very well
(38:10):
established and, and somewhat known.
So, uh, it's interesting that hekind of worked backwards, right?
He, he, he actually was known in hisprofessional life and at the beginning,
not known in the spiritual piece.
And then he kind of, Kind of, bothof them kind of went forward, but it
must have been really hard to havethose, those, uh, those comments
that are not always nice, right?
That I think everybody that goes tosome sort of spiritual transformation
(38:32):
has to endure, uh, the criticism of
Charles Kempf (38:36):
people.
So we went in the archive inParis and, uh, went a little
bit more, uh, looking about thisfinancial situation of, uh, Reva.
And uh, really what we find outis, uh, they always had, uh,
financial difficulties as Reba.
It was quite difficult for them.
(38:57):
Uh, this big institute, uh, which wasworking in Paris, had to close because,
uh, his mother was, uh, discarnatealready as she dis discriminated in 1832.
Just after the marriage.
The father disappeared when hewas three years old in 1807.
So, He, he was sustainingalso his mother and his uncle.
(39:21):
And the uncle was gambling in the casinoshere and there, lost a lot of money.
And that was, uh, uh, the, he was obligedto sell his institute to another guy in
order to pay the debt, uh, and whatsoever.
So j just for you to, to see the moneyhe get, he got for buying the Villa
(39:42):
Seger was for the, from the heritageof the father and the mother of family.
And there they got something like, I don'tknow, 10 or 20,000 or 30 South France,
which was not so much that enabled himto buy this property for 10,000 fronts.
All this we found, now we have thepapers, we have, uh, uh, we, we found
(40:03):
all, all this showing that, and atthe end, huh uh, this villa that he
bought gave him the, the, the solidityin order to, uh, enable banking.
Uh, the, the first step of thequalification from his own pocket.
And the reality was this, this, wehave no, all the evidences about this.
Dan Assisi (40:26):
And I also read Charles, that Villa Siu, who was going to be
something that he left afterwardsfor, for, uh, he wanted to build a
community for spirits could who didnot have retirement and could, and
so that they, they didn't becomedestitutes or, or homeless basically.
Right,
Charles Kempf (40:42):
exactly.
So, uh, all the belongings ofEck went to Of course, huh?
When he died.
And all the belonging of family Huhuh, went to the, uh, society for the
continuation of the works of, uh, Alan.
So all, all what they had because theydid not have, uh, children in the order.
(41:04):
So they gave everything for thedevelopment of the spiritist,
even after they had this.
So the problem is that, to sayat that time it was not so easy.
And some distant parent from Emilycame and made a trial and got, uh,
the money back, which, uh, made thebankruptcy of that, uh, society,
(41:26):
uh, at the end already at the endof the 19th, uh, 18th, 19th century.
Sorry.
Yeah.
So we also have the evidencesabout this now Uhhuh.
Fascinating.
This, uh, you can find a lot ofinformation in the book, which
was published recently, huh?
From Carlos.
(41:47):
We are currently translating into French.
Yeah.
And here you find a lot, a lot, a lotof, uh, information, not only about these
cases, which happened at after card, butalso about who were, uh, this, uh, Mr.
Boham, Mr.
Carlo, and so on.
So, uh, a lot ofresearchers have been made.
(42:07):
Now we know exactly who this person wereat at that time, and I think that is,
Dan Assisi (42:14):
I think that's, That's wonderful and very in
line with Spiritist teachings.
Right.
At the end of the day, the resources,financial resources, physical resources
don't really matter as much, but he didleave us with an incredible legacy, right.
Of knowledge that he helped organize.
And when I go back a little bit, um, tothat, Charles, because we know that, you
(42:36):
know, started to do the research and hewent to different groups, and I wanna
go back to that really quickly because Ithink he has a lot to do with Spiritism.
So Keck then comes up with this message,with his questions, and he's basically
going around to different groups,asking these questions and sometimes
repeating them in different groups.
Mm-hmm.
Just to try them out, right?
(42:57):
Yes.
It's in a very scientificallyminded mindset of saying, I'm
gonna ask this here in this group.
I'm gonna ask this again on thatgroup and see how the answers
jive or if they don't jive.
And from there I'm gonna start,um, you know, figuring out whether
they are really true or not.
Can you talk to us a little bit about,about these experiences that he had?
Charles Kempf (43:17):
Yeah.
So, so he, he wa he saw immediatelythat, uh, all the speeds which are
communicating are not always right.
Okay.
You can, as in the humanity, since thespirits are just, uh, uh, the, the, the
humans after the death, huh, uh, some,uh, even with the best goodwill will say
(43:40):
you something which is completely false.
Okay.
So he, he saw that immediately,uh, in the, that, uh, answers
from the spirit were not alwaysconsistent between themselves.
So there are two criteria he usedto overcome his difficulties.
The first criteria is toanalyze everything with our
intelligence common sense.
(44:02):
Uh, reasoning what makes sense, what isconsistent, what is not consistent, huh?
So the analysis of us human thathe, he, he was doing at that moment.
And the second criteria he madewas what he called the universality
of the teaching of the spirits.
So the more you get spontaneouslyfrom different sources, different
(44:24):
medium, different countries, even, huh?
Second edition of the Speed is book,he got already a lot of feedback from
Europe and even Americas and wherever.
Huh uh, consolidating thanthe teachings themselves, huh?
Uh, because if you are one groupwith one medium and you don't have
this, uh, universal control, huh?
(44:47):
And that was a criteria he appliedfrom the beginning, uh, in order
to, to, to, to reach this solidity,this consistency of the teachings.
Flavio Zanetti (44:58):
So I, I, I love the way you say this, uh, Charles, because I
mean, Keck is, is like a genius, right?
In my, in my i, in my, inmy understanding, right?
Because he was able to get thousandsand thousands of messages Yes.
To put them together, to comparethem, to build on them, and to really
select or filter those that reallymade sense that were talking about
(45:20):
the same things from different mediumsthat do not know each other, right?
Yes.
However, the point, right, I, I wanna makeis even though today people still, right,
when we talk about, oh, we should studykak, we should know more about Kak, right?
Oh, it's too difficult,it's too complicated.
I'm just gonna read something else.
I'm just gonna go, go somewhere else.
(45:40):
Right?
So what's the importance of, for thosefolks that perhaps may be listening
to us that are not spiritists, right?
What's the importance for usto start from the beginning?
Okay.
Maybe talk a little bit about that.
Charles Kempf (45:55):
Uh, uh, to be frank with you, uh, flak, uh, uh, I think
that, uh, this methodology and this regrigorous way that card was working, I
did not see it a lot of times repeated.
Uh, since that time.
There were of course some very important,like, is like, uh, even Gabriel Leon,
(46:22):
some strong followers of course, but they.
With all the respect I have for them,they did not reach the level of kak.
He really incarnated with, how to say, uh,
Flavio Zanetti (46:38):
big brands
Dan Assisi (46:41):
big.
Charles Kempf (46:43):
He, he was programmed to do this work, huh?
Trained, uh, into severalpast lives and so on.
Uh, so, so it, it's really for this,you see, we, we talk about lan, we
talk about the, we talk about whoeverButk is really making the, uh, how
(47:05):
to say is unanimously recognized, uh,within the spiritist, uh, movement.
Huh.
And it is of not by chance.
It's really because he had theskills, these faculties, he
set up this methodology, huh?
Uh, when you, when you look, uh, someprofessors of, uh, epi epidemiology
(47:25):
or scientific methodology, you, you,they are really amazed because a lot
of the principles he used in 1857 forthe Spirit book got only conceptualized
later on, even in the 20th century.
And he was clearly anticipating 50years ahead, more than 50 years ahead.
(47:47):
Uh, some principles which got, let'ssay, consolidated into the science
of the science only much later.
And, and of course it was himself, hisqualities, but also was the help of
the speeds which were assisting him.
So it was really somethingamazing who happened at that time.
And again, I repeat.
(48:08):
Uh, science today, none of thebasic principle of disabilities has
been demonstrated as being falseby the science after 160 years.
So it's really amazing to see howsomething like this can happen.
Dan Assisi (48:24):
A hundred percent.
It is, and that's a great point.
I often say that the Spirit'sbook and that kind of thinking
was, um, was a idea ahead of itstime, but not before its time.
Right?
Yes.
Because it came at the right timeof our history where we were being
mindful when being thoughtful aboutscientific method and, you know, replica
(48:47):
replicability and how to do somethingthat's very coherent and that's just
a fascinating and incredible piece,this whole legacy of Card Connect
that goes well beyond just the books.
Um, you know, here's, we have a guy who'sincredibly well prepared as an educator,
uh, well-rounded scientist in general.
Uh, who, you know, had afantastic support from his wife,
(49:09):
who's no slouch either, right?
I, Emil was also quite brilliant herself,who was able to gather a number of folks
to look credibly and, uh, skepticallyinto this phenomena that were taking
place and, and come up with this bodyof knowledge that we now call Spiritism.
That started with the Spiritsbook officially in 1857.
That, and that's really incredible andwe could talk about this for, for many
(49:32):
hours, but I know that we're reachingto the end of the time, but I wanted
to call us out here and say, you know,as we begin to wrap up, what is one
thing that really stick or stuck withyou about Keck and this whole beginning
of Spiritism that you think is stillvery impactful in today's uh, world?
And we can kind of do a whip around andhave everybody kind of chime in here, but
(49:54):
does anybody wanna lean in and just kindof share with us what they think is, uh,
it's really north worthy and as a goodtakeaway for us to kind of keep in mind?
Flavio Zanetti (50:04):
I, I,
Suzana Simoes (50:06):
Susanna, go ahead, please.
Oh, I'll go.
Um, I just, uh, I think I just want tosay that, like you said, then we could
probably spend like eight hours here liveif we wanna really go deep into our life.
That is so incredibly rich.
Um, I think I just kept thinking,you know, whoever is listening
(50:30):
to us, will that person get thattaste of how special, how unique
this man, uh, is and his mission.
And so what I'm always, um, consideringin my mind is every time we bring a new
(50:51):
idea or concepts, there are challenging.
We face hard opposition.
It's part of the process of evolution.
Uh, new ideas will facea lot of, um, struggles.
Um, he had enemies.
Uh, we see some of the dialoguesin books like what is Spiritualism?
(51:16):
Very in intelligent peoplequestioning the teachings.
So he was a brilliant mind and aman who really, um, dealt with a
number of obstacles, who devoted.
He was prepared up to 50 years oldto, uh, you know, develop all the
(51:40):
resources to undertake the task.
But nevertheless, he was told, andindeed was a huge task, a huge task
that called for a huge man, notonly in terms of intelligence, but
in terms of relating and dealing.
(52:01):
With kindness and with humbleness, notonly with his fans, but especially with
his enemies, giving them the respect.
And he was well known for knowing howto dialogue and how to navigate this
world, which is, you know, with allthe, the, the disparities, with all
(52:25):
the contradictions, with all the, thequestioning, which is something that
we today, uh, struggle so much to do.
So I think that he was, uh, pretty huge,has my incredible admiration, especially
when it comes to that someone who isstarting, launching something that really
(52:47):
revolutionize the world with, with theunderstanding of life, what life is, and
all the implications that comes with the.
Revelation that came to the spirits.
Flavio Zanetti (53:05):
Yeah.
And, and I thank you, Susan.
This is, this is great.
This is brilliant.
Uh, um, what I'd like to add is, whileit's really important for us to continue
studying Kak, there's, there's, spenda whole life studying the works of
this, you know, amazing individual.
But I wanna say that whileSpiritism started with Keck,
it did not end with Keck.
(53:28):
Like, this is animportant, you know, point.
He gave us all the tools, all theresources to kick off this new thing
that we call Body of Knowledge.
This new philosophy, this new idea,this transformational, uh, uh, uh, uh,
uh, concept that changes our lives.
And luckily, other authors, otherfolks are coming at the tail end to
(53:52):
contribute to corroborate what he said.
And to add additional ideas, right?
I think it's important for us to,to mention that obviously, right?
We're gonna stick with the foundation,which card brought us, but as a
house is being built, right, thefoundation, then you can build
the house on top of it, right?
How tall, how why you build thehouse will be up to us, right?
(54:13):
To go after, to study, to getknowledge and really gain, gain
more through other authors as well.
Dan Assisi (54:21):
And before we, we go to Charles for some final comments here too.
Uh, and we're really gratefulthat you're with us here today.
Charles, thanks for being here.
I just wanna highlight that as well.
I think that what's really amazingabout Card's World Work and his
legacy is that Spiritism is, isreally not about the content.
(54:42):
It's really about the method, right?
Because this method of inquiry, thismethod, method of asking questions, of
looking to the outside world and try tomake sense of things and learning for
ourselves in checking different sources,it's something that keeps on giving.
If we were to lose all those books thatKeck published today, but retain his
(55:04):
mindset, we could get all of them back.
Right.
And I think that's the one powerfulmessage that sticks with me, that
Spiritism does to us, and that has done tomy life, is ask these questions, try and
see if there is this universal control.
If this, if, if this truth shows upin different places, and then bring
it back to us and say, how, howwill I behave differently now that
(55:25):
I know that I'm in immortal spirit?
How does that change my behavior?
How does that change my day to day?
So I absolutely love the example thatcard gave us, and I'm still very much in
awe on his ability to communicate sometopics that are so complex, so clearly
and so simply, which is typically, uh, youknow, um, the mark of a great educator.
So that's really just really nice of him.
(55:46):
Um, so thanks for sharing,uh, things with us, Charles.
So tell us, Charles, whatis, what is one big takeaway?
Um, after all your research, uh,about Kak dot e, it still strikes
you as something incredible.
Charles Kempf (56:00):
Yeah, so I thank you for the statements fully share.
Uh, what, uh, Susan, uh, uh, flak andYuan just said that it's, it's, uh, true.
Uh, what could I add?
I think when, when, when we look alittle bit what Kakar has done, uh, he,
he came in, uh, at the right time, huh?
(56:22):
When, uh, after the French Revolutionwhere there was some liberty of
expression, also some, a littlebit more independence towards
the official religions, huh.
Uh, and, and also some other, uh,scientists like Dekar, like, uh, August
(56:43):
with a positivism de developing themethodology of science itself and,
and what Dekar do in all that ambient.
He was seeing turning tables.
Huh.
Uh, very simple phenomenon.
And he saw immediately that there issomething, uh, extremely, uh, deep behind.
(57:04):
And he, he had the lucidity, uh,because science and religion were
fighting once against the other.
Uh huh.
What did still, huh?
Still, still, still.
Yeah.
He took the science and took, okay.
What is good in science methodology?
Huh?
The, uh, the, the, theinvestigation, experiments and so on.
(57:30):
But then he moved a, a lot of, uh,things which in science are not
so good, like materialism or some.
Sometime a little bit.
Pride change resistance as a susaniwealth, uh, uh, thought he also
(57:51):
took, looked at the religions.
Okay, what is good in the religionAt the beginning of the gospel, he
explains this very clearly, is the,the moral teachings love one another.
Do unto the other, what youwould like to do on, onto you.
All these, uh, moral, uh, laws,which are universal that you can
find in any religion in the world.
(58:13):
But then here moved also.
What is not so good inthe religion, like, uh,
thek, my religion is the best.
And, uh, out of my religion,there is no salvation.
(58:33):
All these things, all the rituals,all these things shift away.
And by taking the best.
Of the two, which were enemies,he sought something out of the
box and made something new, a newconcept, which is called spiritism.
And that is why until today, even thescientists are studying, uh, this type
(58:55):
of subject, they have difficultiesin to categorize spiritism, even
within the spiritist movement.
Those people are telling youSpiritism means a science.
No, it's a religion.
No, it's a philosophy.
Uh, it's not a religion in thesense of the dogma and so on.
It's not a science in the senseof, uh, pride, uh, materialism.
(59:17):
It, it is also not a philosophyin the, for the type of philosophy
which are negative or eveninfluenced also by materialism.
It is simply somethingnew out of this box.
It is really a disruption.
Uh, this modern, uh, wording thatwe are using today that he brought
150 years ago, and that is stillnot yet today fully understood.
(59:41):
Neither my science nor bydisabilities themselves sometimes
did not understand that, and thatwas really something brilliant.
And I like what you said.
Dan Spiritism came, uh, beforeits time, but at his its time.
And, uh, the, the, theevidence of it, what is it?
When you look in France,the Spirits book still sell.
(01:00:03):
You have 10 different, uh,publishers and it's selling
several thousands, uh, of exemplar.
Uh, still today.
I go sometimes and put, you know,we have this book box in the street.
I don't know if you have the same in us.
I put the spirit book there.
I come the next day.
It's not there anymore.
Huh?
(01:00:24):
It they put again, again, again, again.
And, uh, still 150 years ago.
You have so many people lookingand we put it also for free in,
in, in electronically, uh, reading,trying to understand, uh, this, uh,
revolutionary concept that he brought.
(01:00:44):
And that is not for, uh, really the thingwhich I think, uh, we still need a little
bit of time to understand this fully.
Suzana Simoes (01:00:54):
Absolutely.
Uh, Charles, before we close and Ipass it back to Dan, I just wanna, um,
acknowledge the work that you were doing.
I know with other folks, uh,the research work, uh, on Card's
Life, it's much appreciated.
So our gratitude, because it's, uh,It's, it's precious and it's priceless.
(01:01:15):
So I just wanna make sure that I saythat to you and just wonder if people
want to get in touch with you or theywanna know a little bit more about that
research or what's going on currently.
What is the best way to find
Charles Kempf (01:01:30):
out?
Oh, uh, I, I, I think one, one good,uh, is a website I just mentioned, huh?
Mm-hmm.
Project Eck at the Universityof Jewish Defora in French,
the French Pist Movement.
Uh, we also organized sincemore than 20 years now, what we
called, uh, LOP and Encyclopedia.
(01:01:51):
So we put all the information we haveavailable, uh, into this encyclopedia.
Uh, of course there are some books.
So, uh, we wrote a newbiography in French.
Uh, we contributed a lot to this, uh,new and, and, and quite some extensive
biographies, uh, in, uh, in Portuguese.
(01:02:11):
Uh, because how to say, to bring, uh,the, the more complete information,
because now with the digitalization ofthe archives, with all these thousands
of original documents, we found, uh,we, we are really, uh, also changing,
uh, it's, uh, how to say a, a quantumjump into the information and the
(01:02:34):
primary sources that we got from Kak.
And of course, all thisis done completely.
Uh, I mean, the rights of this bookis going only to the institution.
Huh?
Which is, uh, Uh, culturalCenter, ARD Valley Monte.
I don't know if someone ofyou knew Eduardo Valley Monte.
I was so happy to, to, to meethim in Paris in 2004 when, uh, we
(01:02:58):
had the Congress and this idea ofmaking these researchers, putting it
available for free to, to everyonewho is interested in is, uh, what
we are still continuing and seeking.
And, uh, I thank you, uh, Susan for,uh, your appreciation and a lot of
people getting also the same feedback,uh, admiring the work we are doing,
(01:03:21):
uh, in a total dis interested way.
Dan Assisi (01:03:26):
That's awesome.
Yep.
So thank you, Charles.
Thank you Flavia.
Thank you Susanna, for being here.
It's great to be in this journeywith you for our six year together.
Um, I just want to thank everybody whois watching or listening as well to
Spiritist Conversations, which is aproduction of the Spiritist Institute.
If you enjoy today's conversation,please share that with a friend.
(01:03:50):
He helps us get the word out and, uh,folks, find some great content that
we think, uh, it's being producedhere and to revisit past episodes.
You can go to YouTube,you can go to Facebook.
You can also subscribe at yourfavorite podcast platform and
not miss one single episode.
We are thrilled to be here with youtoday, and we look forward to seeing
(01:04:10):
you in our next conversation in acouple of weeks where we're gonna talk
about healing in Spiritist passes.
So thanks for being here, andhave a great night everyone.
Thank you everyone.
Thank you so
Charles Kempf (01:04:22):
much.
Thank
Flavio Zanetti (01:04:22):
you everyone.
Take care.
Thanks.
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