It's A Sin, S01E05

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Thank you very much to Ashleigh for commissioning this episode and this whole season, even though it ripped out my heart and stomped on it and then slapped me with it.
What a devastating series. How beautiful and how tragic and uuuugh. 
Thanks so much to you all for listening!
Wanna talk spoilers? Join the Discord! https://discord.gg/rEF2KfZxfV

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
This is an unspoiled network podcast. This is spoil Me
covering It's a Sin Season one, episode five, the final episode.
I really thought, guys that there were more episodes than this.

(00:23):
I'm like, I have a lot of mixed feelings about
this being the final episode and oh man, the way
that I just like sobbed at the end of this, Ashley,
I should start charging extra for emotional shows and just
be like, this is the tears tax.

Speaker 2 (00:44):
Welcome to spoil Me.

Speaker 1 (01:03):
Welcome to the show. Everyone. I am Natasha. Thank you
very much, sort of to Ashley for commissioning this episode.
Ashley is here in the chat and says sorry, but
also not this is the thing. I'm not sorry to
have seen it, and I enjoyed it so much, but

(01:25):
it is so devastating. But also things that are good
often are because that's what resonates, because life is tragic.
It's a very bittersweet experience, and I always have difficulty
because it's part of why I really love having the
spoil Me option for coverage of things, because I'm not

(01:50):
going to pick material like this often to cover unless
there is like a particular aspect of it that I
feel will speak to Rashawn specifically usually, and I am
also not going to watch something that is this heavy
on my own downtime because I want to turn my

(02:13):
brain off, please, you know. So I love having spoil
me for shows like this because it's a combination of
like having to be engaged on a level that requires
a little bit more labor on my part, and also
having spoil me allows me to spend an hour digesting

(02:35):
what I just saw, and that helps a lot with
like processing everything. I think that when I have tried
in the past to go through shows that are this
heavy in kind of a binge, it just didn't work
out in many ways because it was like I would
burn myself out and get too depressed and not want

(02:55):
to keep going after a certain point. Or I would
feel frustrated because it would bring up a lot of
things and I wouldn't really have the time to deal
with them or talk about them because we're moving on
to the next episode, and then I would forget about
it because another thing happens. So it's sort of what
I made spoil me for. You know. I'm sure a

(03:18):
lot of folks out there have the experience of being
told by friends all the time about different shows that
they've got to see. It's so good. It is kind
of depressing. It is really sad, but you know, and
there's that part of you inside that's sort of like, hmm,
depending on your personality, hearing it's sort of depressing or

(03:39):
sort of said might be a perk. I had this
the other day with my friend Candace, and I was
explaining to her about a new series that I had
just read by Charlene Harris, who wrote the sky Stackhouse books,
and this series is really sad and ends on a
bummer note. And I was sort of like saying this
to Warren Candace because she had expressed interest reading it.

(04:00):
And when I told Candae it was a bummer she like,
basically you could practically see her rubbing her hands together,
and she was like, I can't wait to read it.
That I love sad stuff. So you know, it's like,
it's this kind of material is what I would like
to be writing. This is the sort of thing that
I think is worth while in terms of the story

(04:22):
that it's telling and the lessons and the honoring of
the lives of the people who were involved. But it
is a lot. It should be a lot, you know,
and I cannot, Ashley. Every time I've watched an episode

(04:43):
since you said this to me, I have been like
baffled anew at the fact that a person described this
to you as British friends. I want to know who
this person is. Give me their address. I will write

(05:07):
a very carefully but strongly worded letter and get them
to reconsider their choices, because describing this in that way
is unhinged. That's insane. Like I don't even know where
you put those two comparison, Like what are you what?

(05:29):
It's bookers? Like whose brain puts those two things in
the same fucking you know, I don't even know. So anyway, Yeah,
just wanted to say this, Ashley says, one hundred percent,
this is not a binge show. Hence when I commissioned
Dimension to be better to do one a week. Yeah,
it's it's like, I really wanted to watch the next

(05:50):
one right away. But I think that you were right
to do it that way. I think that was a
really smart call and it was so funny. I had
this experience less night you guys, arwin was she like
barked unexpectedly at like five am. She never barks in
the middle of the night. Unless she's got to go
out because she's about to poop. So I woke up

(06:12):
because of it, and my husband was the one who
got up and let her out. But I could not
fall back asleep, And I don't know why, but the
first thing on my brain when I woke up in
the middle of the night was thinking about Colin in
this show and how sad that was, and then the
fact that I was covering the show tomorrow, and about
how I was like both looking forward to andrette watching it.

(06:35):
And I should have probably just got out of bed
and watched it because I couldn't fall asleep. It was
just like kind of a done deal. But it's just
been like right under the surface all like the whole
time I've been watching it. It's just really been with
me because these characters are so vibrant and so real

(06:56):
and let's see, uh, not what I've expected from Charlne. Yeah, Charlotte.
This series, for those who are interested, it's called the
Harpercolony Connolly series. It's only four books. And if All
is a girl who has a power where she can
sense the dead, and so she gets paid to find
bodies and she can also sense their cause of death.

(07:20):
She won't see who was involved, but she'll see what
caused them to die. And it's a character with a
really like rough backstory, and of course the murders themselves
are really upsetting sometimes, and she herself has a sister
that had disappeared and eventually that gets resolved. But that's

(07:42):
really like a bummer in a lot of ways. So
it's I thought it was a great series, and it
was very engaging, and I was desperate to read the
next one, so I went through all of my audible credits.
But I definitely would warn you if you on a
like happy ending, this isn't the series for you anyway.

(08:06):
So okay, let's get started here because this episode, like,
look I said, in the last episode, when Richie says
I'm gonna live, I was like, maybe he will. Maybe
he'll just fucking like force his way through it, you know,
And god damn if he didn't kind of try to

(08:30):
do that anyway Richie is it's fascinating to me seeing
how he is like kind of fleshed out by the
family around him, because his decision to sort of bury

(08:50):
his head in the sand a lot is so emblematic
of the way so many families decide to deal with
so many things, and it's just upsetting to watch everything
unfold the way it does in this episode because it
was never gonna go any other way because of who

(09:13):
raised him and the way he saw the world and
his own place in it. And so I'm gonna bounce
around this episode a bit, you guys, But like starting off,
we are still in nineteen eighty eight, but we have
and he has been the lead in a play and

(09:35):
has gotten like a lot of really great accolades from
this particular play and I can't think they call it
hay Fever a few times. So we start in nineteen
eighty eight just seeing this moment of him center stage
obviously like a main character, taking about his family is

(09:57):
in the audience, and his mother and father are both
bursting with pride and like his mom is almost crying,
applauding him, and his friends are there and they literally
give him a standing ovation, which is it's just a
moment of like, yes, his family's there and they're proud,
but his friends are louder and prouder, you know, every time.

(10:20):
And then we jump forward to nineteen ninety one. Bro
has been going through it, so he looks like shit.
But I really have to say that getting through that
many years, he must have been fucking like really being careful,

(10:40):
you know. And when he's getting out of bed, I
felt his acting with his body language regarding how he
feels physically was so convincing. If you have ever been
ill your self in this way, you recognize this if

(11:02):
you live with somebody who has like chronic pain or illness.
It's just there is a a look of exhaustion first thing,
and a slow, careful movement with everything because it is
putting tension and pressure on your body in ways that

(11:24):
feel different than they used to. And so you're hyper aware.
And his mother is calling, and there's a whole routine
between him and Jill where she pretends that he's getting
up and coming to the phone, and he pretends that

(11:45):
he's fine, but he can't even quite like stand up
and rush out there the way that he would normally,
because he is not okay. And this is when we
find out that like, he hasn't told him any thing,
and he hasn't seen them since two years ago, I think,
she says, because like she didn't see him since last Chris,

(12:07):
before last Christmas, So now it's November, and she's like
wanting to set plans in place for Christmas time, and
I couldn't help but laugh at him, being like, it's November, yeah, bro,
that's when you make Christmas plans. What are you talking about.
He's obviously just kind of trying to guess like her
so that he doesn't have to give her a straight answer.

(12:29):
But this is one of those things where sometimes a
guy can really like reveal how little he understands how
much goes into planning for the holidays, and they'll be like,
I can't believe you're starting this this early. And it's like,
of course you can't believe it because you have no
concept of everything that I Am going to have to
do to make all of this happen. And he just

(12:52):
has to sort of put his mom off, and she's
really like obviously upset over the fact that he doesn't
give a good enough reason other than it's my job.
I have to be on a call for things. She's
his mom. She wants to see him, and we jump

(13:13):
to dinner and apparently he's talking about auditioning for a
play as a different character when he was like the
lead in hay Fever, so it's for some company that
doesn't cast the same leads in multiple shows. It just

(13:36):
doesn't really happen. And he's doing that thing where he's
pretending like, well, it could happen. You know, there's always
a first time, because this is just not a guy
who ever hears limits as a real thing. He just
he's gonna try anyway, and honestly, in a way, what's
the harm in that? But because he is not doing well,

(13:57):
there's an element to this that is a little bit
more sinister because he's just trying to behave as if
he isn't going through the illness that he's going through.
And so you know, there's of course no way that
he is going to be able to be up on
stage for like standing and putting in the emotional work

(14:22):
that goes into any sort of acting role when he's
feeling as poorly as he's feeling and he just doesn't
want to hear it. And the way that they have
to kind of I don't want to say trick him,
because I feel like that's not fair, but the way
that they kind of bring him back down to earth

(14:42):
is reminding him you're not doing well now, but you
didn't do well for a minute, and then you got better,
so let's just wait for that to happen again. And
it's such a good way to handle him, specifically, because
you're not saying you're never going to get well again.

(15:03):
You're not saying you can't do it. You're just acting
as if you're being optimistic and believe he will get better.
So you're doing the performance that aligns with his own thinking.
But you're also getting him to hold his fucking horses,
which is really the main thing. And just seeing the

(15:27):
way that he's like struggling to walk around the apartment
and everything. It's just really the dramatic change in how
he's doing. It's hard to watch. And we have Jill
like getting all of these supplements and medications and everything
together and sitting with him while he takes them at

(15:49):
the end of the night, and you know, ensuring that
he goes to bed at a decent hour, which is
seven point thirty, which is crazy, like, you know, it's
just so oh early. She says something like, it's getting late,
it's getting late, it's past your bedtime, and then she
says it's almost seven thirty, and I was like, oh man,
this sucks. So she says here, I want a word

(16:12):
with you in the morning about your mom and dad,
and he just basically tells her to fuck off, but
she doesn't take that personally. He goes to sleep, and
then there's a thud and she runs into the room.
And this is like a little while later, and he
has fallen down, and there's just a lot going on

(16:35):
with him here that makes them call an ambulance. I
just want to mention that I know I am, I'm
always talking about this, but I just I wish so
much that I lived somewhere we're calling an ambulance. Wasn't
the kind of financial albatross that it is here in

(16:59):
the United States. Just being able to simply call an
ambulance should not be a fucking luxury, and yet here
we are. So there's a moment here Richie's being hauled
away in the ambulance, and there's a neighbor who is
outside watching praying for him, saying like God blesses your

(17:22):
heart or something. God lays a blessing on your heart.
And this in itself is irritating but not offensive. So
Roscoe relays this message with the obvious sort of taciturn.
I have been down this road with you types before attitude,

(17:44):
which I forgive completely. And then she says, after the
ambulance has pulled away, do you know that aid stands
for angels in disguise. They're preparing his way to heaven.

(18:05):
He's lucky, which, setting aside any of the feelings that
you have about afflicted like groups, setting aside any of that,
Telling the friend of a person who is actively dying

(18:28):
that that friend is lucky is the most like insensitive
doesn't even begin to cover it. That is the sort
of thing that I really want to grab her by
the shoulders and scream in her face, like are you

(18:50):
fucking are you hearing yourself? And Roscoe picks up a
trash can or something that's on the street and chucks
it through the front window of what I am assuming
is like her family's business, which granted I wouldn't have
done it that way, but I'm not mad at it.

(19:12):
I'm like, lady, I don't know what is wrong with
you that this is the thing you think to say
right now, but it's just It's part of the problem
with the way we engage with death and loss is
that we don't know what to say, but we always
feel like we need to say something, and sometimes you

(19:34):
just don't have to say anything, or just say I'm
so sorry. People always feel the need to try and
spin it like it's a good thing, or it's like,
you know, in the long run, you'll realize or he's
in a better place now or whatever, and it's just like,
I don't want to hear that right after I have

(19:55):
lost somebody, or when I am in the middle of
losing somebody, I am in pain, and try to get
me to pretend a thing. It's so insulting and disrespectful
and just like another way of foisting your own beliefs
on a person, trying to like spin it. You know,
it's disgusting. I was so pleased with Roscoe, even though

(20:18):
this is not how I would have handled it. I
was just sort of like, yeah, you know, what, good
for you. So Richie is admitted to the hospital and
they get him settled down for the evening. It doesn't
look like it's necessarily going to be a big deal,
but as we find out later, he has themphoma. So
now we have a whole other question that we've got

(20:41):
to deal with. And while she's there, Jill is about
to head home, and the nurse is like, hey, there's
another guy here. You probably want to see him, and
Jill starts to say, like, I'm really tired. I just
want to go home, and the like this is probably

(21:02):
going to be your last chance. So she turns and
goes in to see this guy and I can't remember
his name, forgive me, but he doesn't remember her, and
he apologizes for that. It's clear whatever's been going on
with him is like affecting his brain and memory, and

(21:25):
she just comes to like give him some comfort. And
as she's walking past, the nurse points out this other
man who is sitting alone in his room and apparently
has not told anybody he knows what he's going through
and is suffering completely alone through the whole thing. And

(21:49):
it's not like he has no friends or no family,
he simply doesn't want to tell them. And it's like,
this is a theme for this episode, but also this show.
That's where I believe the name of the show comes from.

(22:11):
And this will get to in a moment, but there's
a scene between Ash and Richie where Ash tells Richie
I love you, and Richie's responses took you long enough,
which is classic honestly, I did really like that as

(22:34):
a response, and Ash says, yeah, I guess I did
leave it a bit long. And I can't imagine like
feeling this way about a person and watching them wither
away in front of you. And I know that this
is an experience many of us are going to go through.
It's just the sort of thing that like, if you

(22:56):
live long enough, if you're lucky enough for your loved
one to age with you, you will either watch them
die or they will watch you die. And that is
simply how it goes. But at this point in my life,
it's unthinkable I have not like the only experience that
I have my father died, but it was a very

(23:18):
sudden thing. My grandmother did sort of wither away, but
I wasn't living in the same state, so I wasn't
seeing her. I went and visited her as often as
I could, but I wasn't there for the whole process
of it, and so it hit very different, and it
just made me like, think about this, is that the

(23:43):
horrible thing about a disease like this, it's just it's
a death sentence, but you never know exactly how it's
going to take the person from you. It could be
that they get suddenly very ill from some thing where
it could be Richie gets to live for you know what,

(24:04):
three years and have his career like begin to take
off and YadA YadA, like he's living, he's doing it.
So it's not like there's no hope, but you know,
there's a fucking timer on it, and you just have
to live like that. I mean, as they as they

(24:27):
begin to like grow thinner and potentially develop like skin
lesions and whatnot. It's just awful. But I did really
really like the intimacy of this moment between them, and
it was sweet. So then we have the whole question
of whether or not Richie is going to get uh,

(24:53):
oh my god chemo because he has lymphoma in his
chest and the doctor doesn't recommend the chemo because Richie
is already so weak, But of course Richie is like,
it's treatment for an illness. I want to treat my illness.

(25:14):
What is wrong with you? And I'm like, well, what
is wrong with you, buddy? Look at you like you
fell down when you were just trying to like walk
to the bathroom in the middle of the night, and
you want to get chemo, Like couldn't be me. It
just couldn't. And so yeah, he's determined to do this.
And there's a very funny moment where Richie like jokes

(25:37):
around about how the doctor checks him out, like it's
actually very funny, but it's oh Ashley's uh says, kind
of makes me think of Chadwick Boseman. It doesn't matter
how much time you've left, no reason you shouldn't get
to continue pursuing your dreams as long as is possible. Yeah,

(25:57):
So then we have this jump. It's Roscoe is going
to go and see Paul before he sees Richie, and

(26:17):
as he's passing by one of the rooms, he spots
his father, who is sitting at a man's bedside reading
from the Bible, and Roscoe leaps understandably to the conclusion
that his father is here being a vulture over people
who have lost hope or who are filled with shame,

(26:41):
trying to get them to convert and his father. This
is actually a really moving moment. His father describes going
home and he says, let's see, I was in the

(27:02):
West and I saw terrible things. I went into hospitals
and I saw people locked away with no medicines, these
doors were locked, and the people behind them were like animals,
and I said, who are they? And they said they

(27:22):
are the devils. We let them die people with that disease,
but men and women, so many women and children too.
Have you got it? And he says, what if I did?
And you know, eventually Roscoe just says no. And he

(27:43):
starts to like, thank God. And Roscoe says, no, I'm
just lucky. Don't thank God. He has nothing to do
with this. And then his father says, you know, it's
so difficult, Roscoe, It's the hardest challenge the Lord gives
us forget, to forgive. And Roscoe says, I don't want

(28:05):
your forgiveness. And he says no, and he stands up
and he has a very like, genuinely a shamed look
on his face and he doesn't meet Roscoe's eyes and says,
can you forgive me? And I was just I was

(28:27):
so moved by this, y'all. There is something about a
person coming around seeing the mistreatment of others that I appreciate.
It's not just oh, I begin to like eventually warm

(28:49):
up to the idea that this was something that was
okay for you to be gay or I you know,
the somebody pointed out to me that nothing is the
Bible really does say that this is a It's nothing
about that. It's not about like I'm cool with your
sexuality exactly. It's just you don't fucking deserve that. And

(29:13):
I can't believe that the attitude that I've been espousing
leads to people being treated like that. And that's the
thing that I think is a huge disconnect for a
lot of folks in the United States where they believe,
they really seem to think that I can have disdain

(29:34):
for this entire group of people, and that disdain is
just my opinion and doesn't actually lead to any action
on anyone else's part. And it's just so dishonest. It's
such a lie. If you have that kind of disdain
and you share it with other people, and you talk
about a whole group with that tone and that attitude

(29:57):
and that set of biases, and you're biggot. You are
letting those people know if they were to hurt those
folks that you're talking about, you wouldn't really care. It's
you giving a green light, whether you mean to or not.
That's how people interpret it, and it just escalates and escalates,

(30:18):
especially when there is something that is so terrifying happening.
You know, this virus that is tearing through communities that
people don't understand that there are all these myths surrounding
it's an unknown quantity, and you have a group of
people that you can just toss out in the trash
and behave as if they're the reason it's happening. Of

(30:40):
course people are going to do that. We love a scapegoat.
It's like the best and easiest way for us to
deal with anything. So this is very much tied in
with the speech that Jill gives Richie's mother at the
end of the episode, which of course I'll get to,
but I felt like it was his father just seeing

(31:02):
I'm not behaving in a vacuum, and it is the
first step on a road to people being treated this way.
And if I don't approve of this, then I can't
do the other thing either, because then I'm party to it.
And that kind of as much as I don't want

(31:23):
it to have to get to this point, it's a
different way of like I feel like so often when
you see a storyline where a family member decides to
be supportive and change their attitude about a queer family member.

(31:47):
It's often just like I can't bear not having you
in my life. I'll bite my tongue, you know whatever.
And it's so much to do with just that person
that they care about, who is the thing, and them
suddenly feeling like, oh, I can't think about you the

(32:08):
way I think about everybody else in this group. But
his father has come to this conclusion separate from Roscoe,
and I kind of like that. There's something about it
that makes it less about your personal feelings and more

(32:30):
about opening your eyes to the effect of bigotry overall
and human rights in general, which I think is much
more important a lesson. Too many people when they are
one over for personal reasons, because they care about a
person who turns out to be a member of a

(32:50):
certain community, they will still hold on to their bigotries
in their heart for a long time, thinking that the
person they are close to is an exception to many
of the stereotypes they still think are true of the majority.
And it's like, I'm glad that you have begun to
be more open minded, but in a way, you're kind

(33:13):
of not. You're just trying to make your own life
a little easier, and it can feel almost selfish and
self centered, the fact that he isn't here to see Roscoe.
He's not here to convince him. He's here to see
another man, because he is starting to put his money

(33:34):
where his mouth is in terms of giving people with
this disease like the dignity of being treated like human beings.
I really liked this turning point in the story, and
I felt like if he had been there for Roscoe,
I might have not given this as much credence. And

(33:56):
maybe he knew Roscoe was in and out. Maybe he
just like, maybe there was some level of I want
to see him, but I don't really like I don't know,
so I just like to see somebody changing their behavior
without the carrot being dangled of maybe I'll get to

(34:16):
have my relationship with my son back. You're doing the
right thing because it's the right thing, and not just
because you are trying to scrape together your own life.
And I think that's like much more moving and much
more profound. So I just loved this. And eventually we
see Roscoe go home, and we don't, like, you know,

(34:38):
see anything beyond that, but it's clear he's starting to
like patch up the relationship with his family some and
I'll be very curious to see how that goes, because it's, oh,
you know, it's an uphill battle anything like this, and
he has so much rage in him still, and even
if your family has begun to turn a corner, that

(35:01):
kind of anger doesn't just go away, you know. So
I wouldn't mind seeing more of this, but I am
fine with the story for Roscoe like ending there. So
at this point we go back to the room in

(35:23):
the hospital where Richie is talking to Ash and Jill
about this one guy and whether or not, I think
he says Donald Bassett, whether or not he's still alive.
Donald is the guy that he had thought might have
infected him, And they have another one of those moments

(35:44):
of like, there's no point in trying to find who
it was that gave it to you, you know, there's
just nothing good can come of trying to pursue that
line of thinking. And then Richie confesses that he had
sex with a bunch of people while knowing he was infected.

(36:07):
And at first he tries to say I was drunk,
and then he sort of catches himself. It's like, I
think he senses the situation for him is dire, and
that this is not the time to be trying to
lie or soften his own actions, and so he stops

(36:29):
and he's like, sometimes I was stone cold sober, and
I appreciated him at least, like cutting himself off and
being like, you know what, no, I'm not even going
to play like I sure sometimes I had been drinking,
but it wasn't like there were other times that I
didn't know exactly what I was doing and I still
did it. And this was truly awful. It was like,

(36:54):
you know, he says to Jill after he makes this confession,
do you hate me now? And it was the sort
of thing for me where I didn't hate him, I
certainly thought less of him. I mean, of course that
is hateful to do that, to know and do that.

(37:15):
But also, as Jill points out later, this deep shame
that comes with this made it so that he couldn't
face anybody about it. You know, this like incredible stigma.
It's so I just keep thinking about the scene between

(37:37):
him and Donald where they both insist that they must
not have it because they've never done anything dirty, which
is just the weirdest, like, especially considering Richie has slept
with so many people. Not slut shaming at all, but
like when people talk about being dirty, almost always what
they mean is they are very promiscuous. So Richie being like,

(38:03):
I'd never was dirty. I'm just like, baby, I don't
know how to tell you this, but you are the
definition of dirty to many people, like you fucked everybody.
So what do you even think it means to be dirty? Like,
what would that even entail? What is that in your mind?
But that's the weird thing about these sorts of stigmas

(38:24):
is like they don't make sense. They don't that there's
such a stigma that you can move goalposts to explain
why it doesn't apply to you. Actually that you're not
one of the people they're talking about, you know, Like
it's really insidious. So yeah, this is just this is

(38:49):
an awful scene and him confessing this. I appreciated him
admitting it. I wondered if she wondered about it, if
she knew. I have to assume that she realized that
had been going on, and it's just you know, her
keeping her mouth shut because she doesn't feel like it's

(39:09):
any of her business, which is probably the best policy.
But it was really sad. It was really awful. So
then his parents arrive. I was so startled. I knew
that it was likely we were going to have to

(39:30):
deal with him at some point. I just I just
didn't think it was going to be this abrupt, and
that it was going to be so out of his hands.
You know, he had no control over them coming here.
They turned up at his place to see him without warning,

(39:54):
and there was a neighbor lady who told them that
he was sick at the hospital, and so they show up,
and genuinely, it was like, I loved that Richie when
she says she told us, and he just is like, oh,
she would, but genuinely, it is so funny to me

(40:17):
later on when she gets all pissy with Jill about
them just like showing up at the Isle of Wight,
and I was like, you guys just rolled into town
to see him without actually letting him know you were
coming or anything. Like I get that you think it's
different because he's ill, but actually this is more of
a reason to turn up because you're like in the

(40:37):
middle of this. Anyway, we get a really different reaction
from both of his parents than I was expecting. His
dad never gets homophobic about this. He Richie just says,

(40:58):
I'm gay and I have aids. At first, they try
and couch it in, well, he has, you know, some
infections and he has lymphoma, and his mom just keeps
being like, no, wait, lymphoma is cancer, and you guys
are you're in the infectious ward. They wouldn't put you
here for cancer. That's not how that works, which is true.

(41:21):
So I kind of appreciated her pushing back initially because
I was like, she's asking the right questions, you know,
But as it continues, she gets so patronizing with Ash
and Jill and says something like, you two are so young.
Look at your faces, as if their grief over Ritchie
is unfounded because they just don't know any better because

(41:44):
they're too young to understand that this isn't as serious
as it seems like. It is just genuinely one of
the most insulting things I've ever heard. I mean, it's
so and I respect the way that both Jill and
Ash handle this, because what are you supposed to do?
This woman's not meant to be here, you know. Richie

(42:05):
doesn't want her to know, but you can't just stop
her from seeing her own child. What are you supposed
to put fucking cuffs on her and drag her out
of there? Like there's nothing to be done. So they
have to be as like fade to the background as
they can. But as it starts to become clearer and

(42:30):
clearer what's really going on and how serious this actually is,
his mother begins to spin the fuck out, And there
is a moment where the camera follows her as she
walks down to the nurses desk and then goes into
like a separate room and kind of collects herself and

(42:51):
then comes back out to the nurse's desk, and she
is like growing more and more angry because one she
feels that the hospital should have contacted them. They have
to repeatedly tell her that was his choice, this was
his decision. We don't get to just call you when
he doesn't want you here, Like that's not how this works.

(43:13):
She's looking to blame anybody, And she's also demanding to
see the doctor that he is usually cared for by
because he isn't there, doctor Sullivan. So she's being very
like demanding an insistent to this nurse in a really
rude way. At one point, she's like, what is your

(43:33):
name noted in that very like Kareny sort of I'm
make I'm intimidating you by implying I'm going to go
after your job. You know, it's really ugly. And then
she it's it's a wild scene, you guys. She points

(43:55):
at Jill and she's like, I want to speak to you,
and Jill immediately is like, yeah, I think we should.
And her and Jill have more of a calm and
reasonable conversation than I was expecting. I was genuinely a
little startled. I was like, oh, this is going surprisingly well.

(44:17):
I thought that she was about to really lay into her,
and she doesn't. Jill is really careful to be like
I tried to tell him that he needed to tell you,
you know. She tries to do the whole He's not
really gay. He's just a boy and boys will fuck anything,

(44:39):
which is honestly not untrue but also absolutely not the
case here. And Jill is very good and gentle about
being like, look, he's doing musical theater. He's never had
a girlfriend, he has slept with many boys. He is gay,

(45:03):
of course he is, And she kind of doesn't argue.
It's more like, as Jill is saying these things, and
it's settling on her. She's starting to realize the irrefutable
fact and that there's not really much to be said
in response. But they get interrupted by somebody else's mother,

(45:29):
I think maybe Paul's mother, who comes in to get
a drink. It's a very awkward moment where they're having
this impassioned conversation and she's just like, I'll just be
in here for a second, and just kills the entire
momentum of their conversation. And then she hears that Richie's

(45:54):
mother didn't know Richie was gay, and she sort of
snorts herself and it's like okay, and his mom gets
her dander up and it's like, are you implying that
there is something wrong with me not knowing my son
is gay? And she says, basically, God forbid, I imply

(46:21):
something that I should just fucking say. You are supposed
to care about your child so much that you watch
everything they do and know them in a way that
they don't know themselves. And this boy couldn't be fucking gayer.

(46:42):
How much more would he have to do for you
to begin to clock it? What the fuck were you
doing when you looked at him? Were you even seeing him?

Speaker 2 (46:53):
Like?

Speaker 1 (46:53):
What even? What was that? And I'll tell you what, kids,
it was kind of beautiful. It was kind of beautiful.
They're like, his mother keeps insisting I didn't know, and
acting as if the fact that she didn't know is

(47:15):
like takes all of the responsibility off her. I'm trying
to find the scene itself. What the hell were you
looking at? That's right? If you didn't know he was
gay all those years? What did you see when he
was eleven, when he was fifteen, sixteen? How old is he?

(47:36):
Thirty thirty years? And every little speck of hims bent
is a nine bob note from since the day he
was born. I'll ask you again, love, what were you
looking at? You're his mother, You're supposed to think about
him day and night, So what the fuck were you doing?
And she starts to walk away, and his mom stands
up and says, how dare you? But I couldn't stop

(47:59):
laughing at this moment, you guys. She says, how dare you,
gets up, gets in this woman's face a little bit,
and then Jill just says, get the door, and she
opens the door for this lady to let her leave.
I really thought it was gonna be a whole I'm
bullying you so that you can't leave the room until
I'm done saying what I'm gonna say. And then that

(48:22):
little bit of Jill just trying to inject some manners.
This woman's compulsive desire to like be mannerly, it overrides
her whole system. She can't she can't progress on her

(48:42):
reaming out of this lady because she's been asked to
do something that's polite and she must, she has to.
So she like opens the door for this woman to leave.
And I was watching her do it, and I was like, really.

Speaker 2 (48:56):
And.

Speaker 1 (48:58):
She follows this lady out and says I didn't know
because I was being lied to, and that lady really
sells the line. All right, love, I'm done. I really
appreciated that delivery. It's just like, tell yourself whatever you

(49:20):
need to tell yourself, baby cakes, come the fuck on,
you know. And you see the moment where his mom
decides she's going to blame Jill. This was what I
thought was coming in the first place. So when they

(49:40):
were getting along fairly well in their conversation and I
was startled, it's because I thought this was what we
were going to get, and it just takes a minute
and she lays it all at Jill's feet that you
were the one in the way, and you were this
like sad chorus girl who just hangs around the gay

(50:05):
boys and doesn't have a life of her own and
basically acts as if like you made him gay or
encouraged this behavior somehow, and eventually calls her a bitch.
She calls her a big bitch, which I was sort
of like, is she changing? Was it supposed to be

(50:26):
like you're a fat bitch and they decided not to
do that, or you know, because like I could definitely see,
especially a white woman speaking to a woman of color
who has a fuller figure calling her fat, that would
absolutely be the play. So I was sort of like,
is that just meant to be like code or what?

(50:51):
But it's it's a really ugly reaction. I was fully expecting,
to be honest, I kind of knew that it was
going to be. And Jill tries to tell her, I
told you repeatedly that we weren't together, and she says
something about like, oh, but you were simpering and laughing

(51:11):
at everything he said, and Jill seems so taken off
guard that she doesn't defend herself, which I really get
because I am this way too. I'll talk a big
game about what I would have said to somebody in
a certain moment, but I know good and goddamn well
a lot of times when a moment is happening, I

(51:32):
am so genuinely startled by the bad behavior of the
person I'm looking at that I don't have the words
to even begin to say how I'm feeling at the moment.
And there's also a big part of me that lacks
the confidence in my own opinion sometimes, and I don't
want to say something off the tip of my tongue

(51:53):
because I'm worried that if I were to step back
and look at the situation and a great like on
a bigger picture scale, that I would realize I wasn't
being fair, that maybe there was something that I wasn't considering,
and my initial reaction isn't like rational. So I'll hold
my tongue because I want to sort of let myself

(52:14):
think it over later. And this results in the moment
being gone and I can't just suddenly bring it back
up again and decide to jump back into that fight
out of nowhere because now it's weird, and so Jill
just sort of like sitting there and taking it. Even
though I was really mad at Jill for doing it,
I also really understood how that happens. It's just especially

(52:41):
this woman's son is dying and she didn't know, and
so there's just a level of compassion there that you
have to have, even if she's being cruel to you
and unjust even if you did everything you could to
like support him and get him to tell her the
grief that you know she is experiencing at that moment,

(53:05):
you can't just ignore that because your feelings are hurt.
And I respect Jill a lot for restraining herself, you know,
but yeah, it's just a really you know, it's it's
a really sad, awful moment. And then we have like

(53:30):
another moment that I don't want to say redeems her,
but it's like, you know, you're bouncing all over the
place emotionally here because then she goes back into Richie's
room and she asks if he's infectious and he says,
they don't know, like we don't know how it's you know, transmitted,
And she says, you're not infectious to me, and she
just like wraps her arms around him and is his mom.

(53:53):
And it's so tough because like if she had been like,
I'm not touching it, you know, it would have been
so very easy to just be like, fuck this bitch.
But as soon as she was like, this is my
fucking kid, I couldn't help but be like, oh God,
and you know, like Jesus, this is her kid. But

(54:16):
what they wind up doing is taking him home with
them and considering the thing that his agent says to
him about lots of boys go home and they don't
come back. Don't go home. You know, once you hear

(54:37):
they've taken him home, it's just the end of the line.
This is just it's such a sad statement in this
show about how as soon as a person begins to
get really ill, they are forced to leave the community

(54:58):
that knows and accepts them the best. You know. That
is the thing that I think is the most tragic
in the end, is that they had to hide who
they were from the exact people who decide to take
custody of them in their final moments, so they don't
get to be with the people that they love and

(55:19):
care about. The most and it's just it's so like
profoundly selfish. I didn't want anything to do with you,
and I know that the people who are doing it
think they're being actually selfless. Where Oh, okay, now he's ill,

(55:43):
we'll generously set aside our opinions on his lifestyle and
put in the work of caring for him. I mean,
fuck you, you know, it's just so backward. If you
had been there with him to begin with, and if

(56:05):
everybody hadn't been the way they were, we wouldn't be
where we are. And that's eventually what Jill winds up saying.
So they take Richie home and he begins to get worse,
and we have a few moments of like there's a
great scene where his dad is like in a room
in the hospital just having a complete meltdown in his

(56:27):
mom literally like belts him in the chest and is like,
get a hold of yourself. And it's just remarkable to
see the woman who has felt meek in comparison to
her husband's a like constant, cranky, shitty attitude suddenly just
be like in charge and telling him to suck it up, cupcake.

(56:50):
It was wild. But when they get home, like I said,
I kept thinking like there would be something with his
dad wanting to pretend his son isn't really gay or
you know, anything like this, and it doesn't happen. I
was like really pleasantly surprised by that, because I thought
inevitably he's gonna have something to fucking say, and it

(57:13):
just doesn't. He is so much more about I want
to make my son as comfortable as I can and
do what I can to fight what this is. He
says that, like in the hospital, I'm going to scour
it out of you, which if only that were how
it works my guy. So it's weird because you sort
of transition from his father being the one ruling with

(57:36):
an iron fist and having these completely unreasonable expectations to
his mother being the one. And it's like, no matter
who is in charge, who Richie actually is, it's just
not on the menu. It doesn't matter to anybody. It's
really very profoundly sad. So at home in London, Jill,

(58:06):
ash and Roscoe are all really struggling with the fact
that she won't let any of them talk to him.
Jill calls every day, and every day his mother tries
to say that he's asleep that he can't talk right now.
We can see that he's like wide awake, you know,
and Jill knows, good god damn well that he's not asleep.

(58:29):
She's not a fucking moron. But there's only so much
she can do. And eventually his agent shows up and
tells them here's some money that remains from him doing
some voice acting. You need to go to the Isle
of Wight and get a room in a B and
B and fucking stay there until they let you see him,

(58:55):
just as long as it takes, stay until they let
you see him. And that is exactly what they wind
up doing. Ash can't go because he has to work.
And I really appreciated this being mentioned because sometimes in
TV shows, all of the friends are able to suddenly
drop everything to support their other friend, and it's just

(59:17):
not fucking realistic, Like, even if it is literally a
life and death situation, if that person isn't a direct relative,
your job doesn't fucking care. They don't give a shit,
you know. So it's her and Roscoe that go to
the Isle of Wight, and you see them over the
course of like two weeks, calling every single day and

(59:41):
her putting them off and putting them off, despite the
fact that Richie would love to see them. It's so
insanely selfish. I mean, she actually says in words too, Gill,
at one point, you had plenty of time with him,
and I've had none. Hey, you know what, bitch, this

(01:00:03):
isn't about you, though, Who the fuck cares what you had.
It's not about you, It's about your dying son, you cunt.
And just as he has asked, he tries to talk
to his mom about how fun it was and like
all of the boys and how he remembers all of them.

(01:00:26):
And he tries to say, like, do you understand, and
she says no, and he says, that's why I have
to see Jill. I want to see her. So his
mother calls Jill, and then you have the biggest gut
punch of the show where Jill meets his mother on

(01:00:50):
this bridge and is excited because she thinks she's going
to get to see him, which I would have thought
if they weren't meeting in a third look, I was
just like, why would she not just have you come
to the house. And then his mother tells her where
she died yesterday afternoon, and I thought she was lying

(01:01:13):
I thought she was telling them this just to keep
them from him again. And then you actually see the
moment where she finds him dead and the horror of
this moment and realizing Jill and Roscoe were in town

(01:01:35):
right there wanting to see him this whole time and
weren't allowed. I mean, it's so fucking gross. And she
does like this real half hearted, like, I know I
didn't do the right thing, but it is what it is. Basically,

(01:01:57):
it's the most like non apology, and Jill tries to
meet her halfway by being like, well, showing up the
way we did was a little crazy, and instead of
just like giving Jill grace the way Jill just did
with her, she instantly is like, yeah, you made things
really hard. And it's just so fucking like ungrateful and

(01:02:19):
thoughtless and again self absorbed. It's so shitty. So finally
Jill says, were you with him at the end? I
had gone downstairs, he was on his own. There was
no one with him. That's not my fault. Actually, it

(01:02:39):
is your fault, missus. Tozer, all of this is your fault,
and she says, well, thank you very much. That's ridiculous,
and Jill goes on, but it is right from the start,
because I don't know what happened to you to make

(01:02:59):
that house so loveless. But that's why Richie grew up
so ashamed of himself. And she starts to walk away,
and Jill says, and then he killed people. He was
so ashamed that he kept having sex with men knowing

(01:03:21):
that he was infecting them and running away afterward. Because
that's what shame does. It makes him think he deserves it.
The wards are full of men who think they deserve it.
They are dying, and a little bit of them thinks, yes,

(01:03:41):
this is right. I brought this on myself. It's my
fault because the sex that I love is killing me.
It's astonishing. The perfect virus came along to prove you right,
which is a great line. So that's what happened in
your house. He died because of you. They all die

(01:04:05):
because of you. And then she walks away, and I
just wanted to cheer, even though it's not a moment
filled with triumph, because she is devastated. You know, it's
a ball or speech, but there's no sense of like
really wanting to cheer because she didn't get to see

(01:04:28):
him you know it's too late. And then you have
the like awful moments of her having to come back
and see Roscoe, who has found out.

Speaker 2 (01:04:40):
And.

Speaker 1 (01:04:43):
When they go home, Ash is like crying. They get home,
they have their moment with him, then they have like
a memorial dinner and everybody is like really jumping back
and forth between celebrating him and bursting into tears, which
is the way this sort of thing goes. And then
we have Jill going up to that man in the

(01:05:05):
ward who has had nobody come to see him, who
has not wanted to tell his family or friends, and
she decides that she is going to come and see
him and sit and talk to him. And this is
just it's such a beautiful thing to do, and it's
so it's so generous and so sensitive, and he is

(01:05:29):
obviously so moved by her deciding to do this, the
expression on his face like you can just see how
lonely he's been this whole time. It's really a moment.
And then the episode ends with a flashback to when
everybody was still alive and Richie is trying to do

(01:05:51):
this soliloquy and he it has an ice cream cone
in his hand and he holds it out and a
seagull swoops down and snatches it out of its hand,
and it's just like one of those lovely moments. That's
just a silly story, but it's everybody together. It's something

(01:06:14):
they'd all remember that they would have just died laughing at.
And the episode ends with all of them like applauding
him as he takes his bow, and it was devastating.
It was so sad, you guys, it was so sad.
Oh my god, a really good way to end it, though,

(01:06:38):
you know, like the brightness, the moment of them having
their time together, and it's just didn't have to be
this way though. That's always what gets me in the
end about so many tragedies is like, there are some
things that are just unavoidable, but then there're a lot
that are unbelievably avoidable. It actually took many things being

(01:07:05):
actively done wrong to make that thing happen. Yeah, well,
I'm over time, so it's time for me to wrap
this up. But I loved this. It was great. But also, Ashley,
I hate you, so you know you'll just have to
live with that. I guess. All right, Thank you guys

(01:07:28):
again for listening. Appreciate you all. Until next time to
the Loo motherfuckers. That was an unspoiled network podcast.