July 17, 2013 • 56 mins
Tuesday, July 16th, 2013. This episode topic is about “The Future of Radio and Podcasting from 2005 to 2013 with Radio Expert/Consultant Mark Ramsey. In this episode we cover these more specific questions:
- How Podcasts and Radio Content will blend together in the Car?
- Possible changes coming to broadcast radio?
- Does radio needs some of the current podcasts talent to succeed now and in the future?
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is episode seven of My Digital Life with Rob
Greenley for July sixteenth, twenty thirteen. I'm Rob Greenley. Thank
you for listening to the show this week. We're back
after a two week hiatus, but I'm happy to be
(00:20):
back in the seed again. Thank you for tuning in.
The topic this week is the future of in car
and on demand radio and how podcasting and radio content
will blend together in the car. The other thing we'll
discuss is possible changes coming to broadcast radio. Does radio
need some of the current podcast talent to succeed in
(00:43):
the future. We're going to cover all those topics. Yeah,
I'm going to spend a few minutes with broadcast radio
and media research consultant Mark Ramsey from Mark Ramseymedia dot
com to discuss the topics of the week in this episode.
And I can be reached at Rob at Rob Greenley
(01:03):
dot com and that's r O B G R E
E N L E E dot com or on Twitter
at Rob Greenley same spelling, or in iTunes or in
Windows Phones podcast area, Stitcher and SoundCloud is where you
can get this podcast. I manage the podcast on Windows
(01:23):
Phone for Microsoft. And if you have a podcast and
you want to get it in the Windows phone catalog,
please send it to me at the email address podcasts
with an S at Microsoft dot com. So let's dive
into the topic this week. I spoke with Mark Ramsey
back in two thousand and five for my IT Conversation
(01:45):
Network show that I was doing back in two thousand
and five. The show was called web Talk with Rob Greenley,
and I will share a link to that interview in
the blog post so you can optually check it out.
Or we talked about the potential of podcasting in the
face of shrinking radio audiences and how celebrities, major celebrities
(02:07):
will lead the audience growth in podcasting in the early
days of podcasting. So it's a little glimpse back in
time a little bit, and I'll play a little snippet
here from the interview in two thousand and five. It
seems like anyway.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
In the mind, well, you know, satellite radio has a
toe hold, podcasting has a toe hold, Internet radio has
a toe hold. All of these things have only toe holds.
Here's the thing about radio. It's universal. Everyone has many,
not just one. Everyone virtually everyone listens to at least
some And even though people listen less because of internet,
listen less because of podcasts. They still come by the
(02:41):
radio store, they still listen to the radio product. So
when you have access to three hundred and fifty millionaires,
give or take, the question is how you use that access.
The audiences are still lose, is the way I look
at it. Yeah, And you keep or lose an audience
based on the content you provide them, and the more
(03:01):
distinctive and more compelling that content is. And who can
better afford more distinctive and compelling content than an industry
which earns boatloads of money hand over fist today with
one hundred percent distribution. I mean, this is the this
is the wet dream of satellite radio to have that
kind of distribution.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
And also when you think about what the future holds here,
that the whole broadcast area is going to maintain its
dominance too. I mean, from all of the studies that
I've heard about, as a broadcast radio is not going
to diminish its influence or reach in the foreseeable future.
People are just going to augment their radio, their broadcast
(03:41):
radio listeners with podcasting.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Well yes, except you know, for satellite radio to add
a million subscribers. It's a huge boon for them. For
radio to lose a million quarter hours is not that
big a deal. Yeah, well it's you know, because radio,
on the other hand, it's not that big a deal
but in terms of numbers. But it turns out that
when you've got one hundred percent distribution and virtually everyone
(04:05):
listening to you, it doesn't take much for you to
feel a pinch. You know, it's not that big a
deal in terms of raw numbers, but it is that
big a deal overall because everyone's expected to grow annually,
and when you're shrinking, even at one hundred percent, you know,
there's really only one direction to go, and that's that's
(04:25):
a problem because all these other things have a toe hold.
It is radio's audience to lose. But I don't know,
you know, it's as content migrates to some of these
other venues, we'll see. I mean, I just read today
some speculation that Serious and Apple are talking not about
(04:47):
licensing Serious, you know, regular channels, but potentially licensing their
original content to iTunes. And as you you know, as
I'm sure you've talked about, iTunes is going to be
enabling podcasting in their next version so when you put
those pieces together, what you have is original, serious content
(05:09):
potentially available at least for subscription, if not for free
through iTunes for podcasting. And keep in mind that among
that original content starting January one, two thousand and six,
is none other than Howard Stern. You have now a
distribution platform which is potentially vast for a product which
(05:32):
is unquestionably unique and compelling and in demand.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
And I think also when you kind of look at
it from the standpoint of the new cell phones or
mobile phones that are going to be coming out over
the next couple of years that are going to have
you know, always on, you know, connections and be able
to have a massive storage capacity within those phones, you
can really see kind of a new distribution model. But
(05:58):
I guess the question that keeps coming up in my
mind if that does, in fact happen, is that will
that distribution be dominated by talk radio type programming or
will it be dominated by a combination of talk radio
and music, which is what exists right now in the
broadcast radio.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
Well, the difficulty, as you know, is that that there
are licensing issues with music and that are so far
unresolved that someone is to pay to podcast music, and
it's unclear who is to pay in how much and
to whom, So all of that needs to be squared away.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
But there is other types of music out there.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
That that well, there's indie reels. And in fact, one
of my one of my arguments that I made on
a different show is that, you know, I think indie
music has the potential to be a prime driver for
podcasting because you know, it's put out by the people
who own it, and you know it's that that could
be a prime driver in no way as prime as
(06:57):
Howard Stern. That's the thing. So I asked you your question
is original, unique, broad based and compelling content. Star content
is what drives everything. You know, Nelly sells more records
than Joe Blow undeniably, So a Joe Blow indie podcast
(07:19):
would have X amount of distribution and a Nelly podcast
would have X to the tenth power distribution. So the
more Nelli's you create, and by the way, Nellie's are
not going to easily be created by podcasting. They can
profit by podcasting, but they need mass media in order
for their fame to spread. So I think, you know,
(07:46):
music or non it's easier with non music than it
is with music because non music content can be star
content music content, and so these licensing things are worked out,
is going to be Indie content, and you know India
is they call it indy for a reason.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
So what you're saying is that the celebrity is gonna
really be who dominates podcasting.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Well, I mean, look, I mean even though the quality
was poor, look at the Paras Hilton podcast for House
of Wax. I mean, I don't know what the statistics are,
but I would venture a guest that was one of
the most downloaded series of podcasts. Yet well you know
why the quality was horrible of what the content was,
(08:35):
but it didn't matter. A was paras Hiltan and b
was widely promoted by whatever the studio was, Dimension or
whatever it was. Uh So you know that the combination
in other words, of the man, the big corporate behemoth
man putting together the star with the medium. Well you
(08:59):
know that also iTunes and serious and Howard Stern could
be that combination.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
But somewhere in the mix here, this whole grassroots content
creation boom that we're seeing happening is going to play
into this somehow. It just you know, like you were
talking about when you factor in the influence of celebrity
on that it does put put the the distribution more
going to towards celebrity related podcast.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
And I've always believed exactly, I've always believed that it's
going to it's going to be drifting in that direction.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
Yeah, but it's also possible that as you look at
the whole mass of content creation that's going to happen
with podcasting, that the the smaller podcasts, when you aggregate
all those together, could wind up being a significant influence
as well. And that's part of the reason why I
think we're seeing networks a podcasts start to form.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
Here, and well, I think also the reason you're seeing
networks is because people are looking towards an advertising model,
and in order to justify an advertising model, they need
to they need a critical mass, So they need to
form a network for that reason and that reason alone,
because otherwise these things are all individually too small. I mean,
I think that all the grassroots stuff is great, but
(10:14):
you know, just because you can do desktop publishing on
your laser printer doesn't mean you're going to replace the
local newspaper. Just because you can produce a movie on
your laptop. It doesn't mean you're going to be lunching
with Steven Spielberg at at the Polo Lounge. In fact,
very much the opposite is the case. You know, for
every Blair Witch project, there are countless thousands of indie
(10:38):
films which eat up money and go nowhere. So the
ability to create this content and the ability to have
it you know, widely heard, scene remembered, cared about, are
two completely different things. And you know this, now, some
stars may emerge, well.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
We've seen a little bit of that already, I think,
but with who you know, with some you know, some
of the podcasters that have been able to get some
some traction and some press out there.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Yeah, possibly, but you know there are even.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
It's not huge numbers by any means.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
No, But I mean again, if if I think one
of the reasons why Infinity is doing their experiment in
San Francisco with an all podcast radio station is to
to create a farm team of talent, because if they
find anything particularly compelling out of all those contributions, why
not put it on the radio?
Speaker 1 (11:36):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Or it can really do some good, really move some needles,
really generate some revenue, and really you know, satisfy a
lot of listeners.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
Fast forward eight years to twenty thirteen today and how
have things changed? Did we get it right back then?
I have broadcast radio and media research consultant Mark Ramsey
from Mark Ramsey dot com on the line right now
to us the future of radio and podcasting and also
(12:03):
what are the in car experiences that we can expect
around on demand radio and podcasting? Are some hybrid of
the two and what is it going to be like
to combine broadcast radio and on demand radio like podcasting
in the future. Mark, Welcome to the show, Thanks for
joining me.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
Thank you, Rob, happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
Yeah, we go way back. I remember having you on
a show that I did for the IT Conversations network
back in two thousand and five. It was part of
my web talk radio show that I was doing, and
we talked about a lot of cool stuff around the
predictions of what it's happening with radio, because back in
two thousand and five was kind of an early day's
run at at online radio and podcasting was just kicking
(12:46):
off back then, and we talked about radio topics back
then relating to podcasts and online radio and streaming and
how it appeared that those mediums, those new mediums were
going to start taking a chunk of the radio listening time,
and I thought that back then that shift was happening.
Do you think that, thinking back after about eight years
(13:09):
or so, that it's happened to the degree that you
thought it was cock.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
Then, well, I think, first of all, whatever I said
eight years ago, it was all correct. I don't know
what it was, but I'm positive it was correct whatever
it was. So there's that as far as Yeah, I
think what we've been seeing in the interim, First of all,
I think that conversation is I recall dealt a lot
with podcasting in particular, which which particularly new and fresh
(13:34):
at the time. In the interim, I think what we've
really seen is the rise of the proverbial other where
in a fixed amount of time, you can only devote
it to a certain number of places. Yes, you can
share more than one place at a time. I can
watch TV and use a mobile device. I can watch
TV and use a mobile device, and gosh, I guess
(13:55):
I can have the radio on, but I can't listen
to the radio and watch TV at the same time.
So there's a limit to how attention can stretch and
I think, what's It's not so much that all this
stuff eats into everything else. It's that it nudges it
aside a little bit, and that at the end of
the day, it's not that people it's a light switch
(14:16):
thing like VHS to DVD was. It's more of a
kind of soft fade where things share, you know, the
personal bandwidth we call time.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
Yeah, and there's only so much time to go around, right.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
So there is only so much time to go around.
And that, by the way, is why you see take
a look at my opening present from the from the
conference we're going to talk about later, and you'll see
that I share some statistics about the changes in the
average quarter hour rating for radio, which is the fraction
of the population that's listening to radio right now over time,
(14:50):
and the numbers are down. Radio industry, well, folks will
tell you that, you know, there's tons of people listening
to radio, A huge fraction of everybody listens through to
the radio. That may be true, but they're not spending
as much time as they used to. They're not here
as many occasions as they used to be. And the
reason is not just podcasts and Pandora. The reason is
(15:12):
mobile devices and cell phones and iPhones and game boys
and u Xbox and Netflix and everything else that Roku,
everything else that distracts us and video games that attention
that that that target our valuable attention.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
Yeah, and I think that that's a really fascinating point.
I'm not sure that a lot of a lot of
folks in podcasting are in the broadcast or radio business
really think about that. Is that there their new competition
is all these other forms of media out there that
occupy people's people's mind share, right.
Speaker 3 (15:46):
That's right. And the difficulty that audio has in general,
and this is something I'm gearing up to write about this.
I haven't really done it yet, but I've talked to
a couple of people about it. The difficulty of audio
in general is that while a picture is worth a
thousand words, it takes a thousand words to paint a picture.
And in a time when our time is stretched, when
(16:08):
our attention is stretched, we may not want to devote
a thousand words worth of time. We don't devote. You know,
it used to be you'd watch two minutes of a
YouTube video. Now it's like, you know, a six second
vine is more than sufficient. Yeah, I mean The challenge
that audio has is that audio isn't suited to a
(16:30):
to a six second experience, right.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
Yeah, And I think that. I mean, if you look
at places like YouTube, which you know, there's whole kind
of new show shows that are coming online there that
are less than five minutes long, you know, and it's
it's like I come from a generation and I probably
you do as well, that there is an expectation that
content is longer than just two minutes, right. I mean,
(16:53):
it's hard to get a lot of value out of
something that's only two minutes long.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
Well it used to be. But you know, then how
to playing these five minutes shows? How to explain the
fact that, you know, we can say it's not enough
time to deliver content, but then if people get only
two minutes of viewing out of a thirty minute video,
who are we to say that's not enough time?
Speaker 1 (17:12):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (17:12):
Obviously the audience is spoken, and I think in the
audio context, the challenge is going to be that you
know these and I look, I create longer form content myself.
I do it for specialized audience. I recognize it's not
for everybody, but for anybody who's creating content that's intended
for a broad audience. I think there's going to you're
(17:33):
going to have to think through how you capture and
sustain attention, and you're going to have to think through
how to formulate that content so as to match it
to people's desire, ability, and interest to allocate that attention
to you.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Yeah, And I think that's that's a little bit of
the tuggle war that we have going on with content today,
is that oftentimes value comes from having more inform there, right,
versus shorter bites of information tends to be less detailed,
but those tend to get more attention these days because
people are stretched, like you say, for their attention spans.
(18:11):
They don't have a couple of minutes to spend with something.
Or that's how we've trained ourselves now to think about,
you know, in the twitterization of media, is shorter is better,
but it may not necessarily be better in all genres
or all topics. And I think that's the tuggo war
that we have going on right now.
Speaker 3 (18:29):
Well, we have to separate the what we mean by
better from what we mean by popular. Yeah, Because I mean,
you know, I think you look through five ways to
use pinterest for your business I mean, could I could
read that same article one hundred times and we have
five different ways each time, But as long as it's
phrased five ways, yeah, you know, that's what's going to
(18:52):
get read, because it's a lot shorter than ten ways
or a long article with nothing bolded, nothing underlined, and
nothing no. I mean, but it's that kind of editorial
cosmetics almost that we need to apply to audio. And
I would direct people, people like you, people like everybody
quite frankly in this space to one of our most
(19:15):
derided art forms, television news, local television news, because there
they take what could be hours of programming and they
spend a whole lot of time telescoping content, teasing content,
boiling down content, repeating content, excerpting content. I mean, there's
(19:37):
a science to it, and that science is built to grab, capture,
and sustain attention.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
Boy, and it can be frustrating though to go through it. Though.
It's like, when is that segment coming up in that
you know, in the news program that they promoed the
last four breaks.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
Right, yes, speaking is the person who tuned in for
every one of those minutes to get to that segment exactly? Right?
Speaker 1 (19:59):
Exactly? It's it's a struggle. But I oftentimes, and as
you were saying that, I was thinking one interesting way
to think about this is that maybe as content producers
we need to think more about shorter content as a
catalyst for conversation. And maybe that's where the justification really
hits the road, is that maybe over time here, maybe
(20:21):
we're all going to become content providers that contribute to
the discussion that happens by the audience.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
Right, what YouTube refer to as a catalyst for conversation,
I would call a tease. Yeah, you know, I mean,
for example, that's.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Kind of that's kind of what talk radio was really
built on, right.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
Yes, but talk radio is also built on the notion
that I'm going to talk for three hours today, three
hours tomorrow, three hours the next three days after that,
and if you miss any portion of what I talk about,
don't worry, because I'll be back tomorrow talking about just
about the same thing for the same length of time,
(21:00):
and you don't really miss anything. It's very much like
soap operas. Talk radio is like soap operas. You know,
you miss a day, you miss almost nothing. I had
a conversation with somebody, and I will not mention who
who was referring to a major talk radio talent and said,
you know, if we just reran his show from last
week today, would anybody notice? And somebody else in the
(21:21):
meeting said, last week, we could rerun his show from
last year and nobody would notice. Now, whenever that's the case,
what you're creating is wallpaper audio wallpaper. You're not really
creating something that is certainly for audience which have as
many choices as we have today in as many ways
(21:41):
to exercise those choices. That's the fundamental gap between kind
of spoken so called spoken word radio and all the
stuff that we can do online.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
Yeah, with that, you know, part of what we talked
about back in two thousand and five was the shrinking
audience for broadcast and how that's going to impact you know,
kind of major trustrial broadcasters. How do you think that
the major trustrial broadcasters are are kind of adjusting to
this new.
Speaker 3 (22:09):
World kicking and screaming with the emphasis side the emphasis
on screaming. And there's also look part of again, watch
the opening presentation I did for my high vo conference,
and you'll see how I lay this out because I said, look,
you know, the statistics that have been popularized in the
radio industry say more listeners than ever, et cetera, et cetera.
(22:31):
And when I show you the stats that say the
fraction of the population listening right now to the radio
is off nine percent in the past two years alone,
I mean, that's a chilling statistic. But I said, the
reason for that statistic isn't just paint some kind of,
you know, dank, dark picture about radio. It's to say
the radio is no different from any other major medium
(22:53):
with mass attention, television, film, They've all suffered this. People
are consuming as much more content than ever before, they're
just not doing it in the traditional channels to the
same extent. And why in the world would radio be different.
So when you buy into the notion that radio is
not different from those things, that it's not quite unquote
special compared to those things, then you have a basis
(23:15):
to plan that's based on reality rather than based on
you know, rainbows and unicorns. And I like to base
the future on reality. And I think a lot of
the broadcasters that are kicking and screaming are arguing that
nothing's broken. Where as relevant as ever, whereas used as ever,
(23:37):
people are here in the same numbers they always have been.
We're just not telling our story well enough. That to
me is naive.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Yeah. Well, it's also that erosion is happening, like you said,
to all the traditional media, I mean even movies there.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
And it's okay, right.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
They're happening because there's a lot more competition for people's
attention now.
Speaker 3 (23:54):
It's okay, yeah, if you go to Paramount. I just
read a book that I'm reading a book now that
talks about it talks about Linda Oaps is Sleepless in
Hollywood I think it's called and she talks about her
time at Paramount on the TV side, and she said
she goes into Paramount and Paramount views itself as a
multi platform content company. Paramount Pictures a multi platform content company.
(24:17):
And you know, ironically, one of the themes of my
presentation the other week was content and platforms. Content and platforms.
What's the solution to shrinking attention. It's content and platforms.
It's being in more places, in more forms, whatever the
form is that fits that place for that particular audience,
and it's providing content that's worth seeking out. This, by
the way, is the fundamental opportunity in the dashboard too.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Yeah, it's just well, it's just moving to where people
are moving to, right, I mean, as a content around,
you have to move to where your audience is more
likely to be. And I think it's really just as
simple as that. And that's I think that the radio
folks have kind of forgotten about, probably up to this point,
is that their audience is shifting they need to shift to.
Speaker 3 (24:59):
Well, part of the challenge is that there, you know,
radio is evaluated based on radio ratings, and radio ratings
are passive instruments, so they'll, you know, they'll they'll passively
measure what audio signals are in the area. And that's fine,
but that is a universe of radio stations only, right,
(25:20):
So when I spend my time listening to a podcast,
all of that is off the shelf. When I spend
my time watching a Netflix, all of that is off
the shelf. When I spend my time, you know, playing
a video game, that's off the shelf. So wherever that
attention goes, wherever my time goes. If it's not to
another radio station, it's not measured. And if it's not measured,
(25:41):
it doesn't exist to radio. And if it doesn't exist,
how are they supposed to respond to us strategically, So
sooner or later, the business models need to catch up
with the choices available to consumers. Because here's what's going
to happen. Dollars will follow attention. Dollars will follow attention.
It may not be steady, it may not proportional, and
(26:01):
it may not be fast, but it is inevitable.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Yeah. And one other thing that we talked about back
back eight years ago was how Major reminded me about
this eight years then, that major celebrities were going to
lead the audience growth for podcasting, And I know, as
you think about it today, nothing's really changed in that front.
I think it's really fascinating if you think about broadcast
radio celebrities, right, like the Howard Stearns and the Sean
(26:27):
Hannity's and those those kind of folks that have built big,
big celebrity status around radio. A lot of those folks
are not really building big celebrity statuses on podcasting yet.
And there's a whole fresh new breed of the Kevin
Smiths and the Adam Krolaz and some of these guys
have been able to make that shift, right, But where
(26:49):
do you see the whole development of major media celebrities
becoming big spoken word audio creators.
Speaker 3 (26:56):
Look, the reason why you have a radio show rather
than open doors on a podcast is because you get
much more attention, much quicker, and that invites you know,
besides the money, if there is any, you get much
more attention, much quicker. That's why even the people with
the podcast would trade their right arm for a radio
gig on top of that podcast, or at least a
(27:18):
radio piece to the podcast. Pie. Certainly Kevin Smith would, yeah, but.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
I say that quite a few of them, like an
Adam Kroller, would not.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
He says he would not. But if someone went to
Adam and said, Adam, with no additional work on your part,
we're going to air some of your podcasts and we're
going to write you the following check, Adam would say yes,
thank you sir. What Adam doesn't want to do is
trade in his podcast Empire and get another radio job
where he is to get up at four in the morning,
(27:45):
five days a week for four hours. And I don't
blame it, you know, I mean, this is part of
the problem. The problem is that Kevin Smith doesn't produce
nearly the amount of content that we expect the average
radio talk host to produce because the Internet doesn't require that.
You know, you and I as listeners don't require that.
Even radio listeners don't require that. Look, the reason why
(28:06):
radio talk radio shows are three hours long, five days
a week isn't because the average person listens to fifteen
hours of content.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
It's tuning in and out.
Speaker 3 (28:15):
Right, they're tuning in in and out. So, in other words,
it's built to be grazed, not to be consumed front
to back. So the stuff that podcasts are creating are
built ideally to be consumed front to back. You don't
need as much the problem that you know, that's a
challenge for broadcasters because in an ideal world, broadcasters would say, well,
(28:36):
here's this wealth of content Adam Carolla is creating. You
mean to tell me I can't figure out a way
to put that on my air and monetize that without
having fifteen hours of it a week or twenty hours
a week. Seriously, I mean, we're asking too much of people,
and that's why the talented people would rather put a
blue NeSSI mic on their table and record a radio
(28:56):
show for one hour a week, whether it's Ayisha Tyler,
Kevin Smith or Adam Carolla or now John Lovetz he's
going to do his own.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
Yeah, I've seeing that. I've never seen a successful podcast
do three hours of content a day.
Speaker 3 (29:13):
No, but you see our radio shows that repurpose their
shows as podcasts, in those run three hours a day,
and while they get downloaded a lot, I'm sure most
of it's not consumed. It can't possibly be consumed.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
It's too much.
Speaker 3 (29:25):
It's just too much. So the problem is, how do
you have this twenty four to seven three sixty five
broadcasting asset and make use of all this incredible content,
some of which may be very short short form.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
Yeah. And also one other piece to this pie too,
is is that a lot of those podcasters that are
used to the freedom that exists on the digital side
with podcasting for language and length is also a big
factor there too. They can vary their weekly show or
their daily show. It can be twenty minutes, it can
(29:57):
be an hour and a half, whatever they want to make.
It's not locked into a certain duration, and that would
be one big hindrance. So I would say, for like
Kevin Smith, is is around language right.
Speaker 3 (30:09):
Well, you know, but and Kevin said to me, though
he said, you know, look, I could work clean. And
not only can you work clean, but if I'm a
broadcast company and someone's providing the name brand, top drawer
content and all I have to do is hire an
editor for ten dollars an hour, I can hire an
editor for ten dollars an hour and they can edit
that show. And the question is, you know, if you
(30:31):
can run Loveline at ten pm at night Monday through Friday,
or whatever the heck it is, you know, why couldn't
you theoretically run you know, Kevin Smith's show or an
Adam Carolla show in that So why doesn't that make
economic sense? Why hasn't someone done that deal? Why haven't
broadcasters evolved to the kind of model that they had
back in the forties where they were dealing with exclusive
(30:55):
content until television stole it. Here we go again. We've
got an op opportunity for more exclusive content. And for
any of these podcasts, Yes, they have their audiences, and
in many cases their audiences are big, their audience is
pale in comparison to what they could be if they
were exposed on the radio, flat out, unambiguously.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
So what's going to happen here is it going to evolve.
This content's going to evolve to be more like radio
or is it going to be evolved to be more
like online radio like a podcast. I mean, what's the
ultimate destination of this? Or are we going to continue
to see two worlds coexist? I mean, as you think
about it, I know we're going to move into talking about,
(31:38):
you know, in car experiences, and I think that that question,
I think kind of galvanizes that topic, right is how
are those worlds going to kind of come together? Right?
Speaker 3 (31:49):
Well, I think it's all part of one big world.
This is what's not understood well among broadcasters that there's
no such thing as radio is apart from Pandora, as
apart from podcasts. It's all part of one big spectrum.
If you take it out far enough, you could argue, well,
even video as part of that same spectrum. I'm working
with people now to do video versions of their radio stations.
Why not if it can be engineered and presented on
(32:12):
the plat on the digital platform, why shouldn't people be
able to tap into a video version of my radio
station such that all the songs roll one into the next,
just like a video music channel. Back in the day,
but it's my curated list of content, it's my DJs
with cameras in front of their faces.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
Why not.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
Yeah, well, let's go ahead and dive into the whole
topic of radio in the car, right and how that's
going to kind of evolve and change here. And I mean,
because we're already starting to see the early stages of that.
And at a fairly recent radio conference, I don't remember
what the name of it was, there was some panelists
from some car manufacturers that were saying that there's a
(32:52):
plan or thought to remove AMFM radios from cars sometime
in the next five years or less. And I got
the impression that that really kind of rattled the radio industry.
What was your observation when that happened?
Speaker 3 (33:05):
That turned out to be very much a misquote, that
was a misremembering of the conversation, And when that conversation
was recalled was and when he went back to his
notes or the audio and that conversation, he realized that
he had completely misconstrued what that individual said. That individual
did not imply what you just said. So, I mean,
(33:25):
but the evidence is quite clear. Look, anybody who understands
consumers know that nobody wants anything taken away. They only
want things added the people who want who I want
the choice of not using a VHS anymore, thank you
very much. I don't want you to choose it for me.
And when enough people like me make our choice, that's
when you make yours, and not until then, you don't
(33:47):
arbitrarily tell me what my options are going to be,
mister automaker. So that AMFN thing was always a misunderstanding
from the get go. The automakers do plenty of research
and know exactly what people want, so I'm not worried
about that at all.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
So to kind of jump into that, where the reality
of that comment came from was what was the fact
that there's going to be more experiences coming into the
car that will be connected up with either your mobile
phone or directly connected to three G or four G
networks into the head unit of the vehicle itself. So
basically what's going to happen is that the car is
going to become like a mobile computer. Basically that's going
(34:26):
to have apps, and the Pandora apps or stitch your
apps or whatever service that you want to want to
use will ultimately be probably available in your car through
either through your phone or through the head unit of
the vehicle. And how do you think that if that
in fact is the case, that that's the direction of
(34:48):
things are going that certainly looks like it, how do
you think that's going to impact the radio industry? How
are they going to you think evolve with that scenario.
Speaker 3 (34:56):
I think they're going about it the wrong way so far,
because the way they're going about it so is, you know,
let's be everywhere, let's have you know, have mobile apps,
let's be accessible in the car in more ways and
forms and so on. I think you need to recognize
that if people stray, they're going to stray because something
is compelling them to do, something is attracting them. So
(35:19):
success in the car is increasingly going to be about
attracting people to a destination, not about defending turf that
was yours simply because it was a black box nobody
could gain access to, which is historically how it's been.
It's been either you know, eight tracks, cassettes, CDs, now
(35:41):
chords going into your iPhones, ultimately just about anything. So
this notion that radio used to own kind of the
dynamic content in the car. Now radio will be one
of many ways to get dynamic content in the car.
So what's going to happen, Well, the advantage is going
to shift to the most compelling dynamic content in the car,
(36:03):
and most compelling. Maybe compelling for me is different from
compelling for you. So in other words, it should be
a battle for content. It should be about having the
most unique and compelling content they possibly can have, especially
since radio uniquely right now has the ability to kind
of attract groom and popularize that kind of content. At
(36:27):
least it has that possibility. Whether it's whether it's exercising
it or not, it's another question.
Speaker 1 (36:32):
So where do you see satellite radio fitting into the
picture here?
Speaker 3 (36:36):
I think satellite radio is going to continue to tinker along,
to tick along and grow modestly year after year. I mean,
it's basically built into every new car. Now you have
to decide not to take it. You don't decide to
take it. That's a critical thing, by the way, I mean,
who wouldn't want there. It would be like putting your
podcast on every new car and say you're subscribed for
(36:59):
six months. After that you have to decide to cancel it.
It's versus Hey, hopefully you'll find out about this. Hopefully
you'll stick this on your car, hopefully you'll subscribe to this. Well,
one is infinitely more likely than the other. It's way
more difficult to cancel satellite radio than it is to
sign up for it. So the fact that it's built
(37:21):
in standard equipment makes all the difference in the world.
That means people have to stop using it. So I
think it's going to continue to chug along in and
continue to be a valid source for attention. Certainly, they've
got a lot of you know, quality content on there
in addition to the you know, the music channels will
be pretty redundant to what you can get from other places.
(37:42):
But if I'm accustomed to being in a satellite radio environment,
why do I need the other places?
Speaker 2 (37:47):
You know?
Speaker 3 (37:47):
Pandora's a great solution if I want to personalize my music,
But it's not a great solution if I just want
a good jazz station, or a good hip hop station,
or a good pop station. I can get that from serious.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
Yeah, or even a good spoken word program or station. Right.
Speaker 3 (38:03):
Well, you know with Pandora, that's right, and that's that's
another conversation we can have.
Speaker 1 (38:10):
Yeah. So, given the history of radio, you know, it's
been focused primarily on local live events, music, talk, news, talk,
and other spoken content. So as you think about Pandora,
Pandora is very focused on music, right, It's trying to
create a terrific experience around music. It seems to me
(38:30):
like either one of two things is going to happen.
Either one or more of these big music platforms is
going to adopt the full spectrum of what people expect
from radio, or we're going to have just like the
iPhone today, there's separate apps for everything, right, and you
have to have this, you know, a separate app for
talk radio, separate app for live events, a separate app
(38:52):
for music, and separate app for this and that. And
how do you see that playing out?
Speaker 3 (38:57):
Well, you know, I think that's going to be an
attempt to create, you know, a rainbow of options including
all of the above. I mean, that's what's certainly what's
going to be created is all of the above. Now,
what's going to be popular may not be all of
the above, because you have this these conflicting realities. On
the one hand, there's going to be a temptation to
(39:18):
pack in more features right. On the other hand, the
stuff that's most easily communicated is the stuff that's simplest
to convey, and the simpler you are, the more single
focus the problem you solve. Right, So, yeah, here's the
live event app. Great, here's the only personalized music app. Great,
you start grouping that together. Now I can get news
(39:39):
in my personalized music. Okay, well I didn't know about that. Okay,
Now I can turn on and off personalities. Okay, well
I don't know if I need that or not. But
it's a little hard to describe. And the herd the
more stuff you pack in, the harder it is to describe,
and the shakier the assumption that you're solving a problem,
and the more it looks like what you really doing
(40:00):
is trying to recreate radio on a different platform. And
the thing about radio is that it works quite well
for what it does, for what it's intended to do,
and for what people to look to it for. It
is great. Radio does a great job. We don't look
to our radio to be personalized. We don't look to
our radio to be commercial free. We say we wish
it were, but we also are not inclined to pay
(40:21):
for it. And if we are, there are ways to
do that, and most people clearly do not. So, you know,
what we say we want and what we we gravitate
for are two different things. There's going to be a
temptation for nice, clean, lean things like a Pandora to grow,
you know, warts all over the place in a search
for new listener value propositions. And as their CTO said
(40:47):
to me, you know at the high View event a
couple of weeks ago, they're going to move very cautiously
down that path because they don't know, first of all,
that they need to. There's this expectation they will from
this notion that somehow everything's going to end up looking
like radio and radio like everything else. But I don't
think that's necessarily true. He did, however, hint of where
(41:08):
they would likely evolve if they evolve out of music only,
and I thought that was pretty interesting.
Speaker 1 (41:14):
Actually, yeah, I think it was something around the making
shows that would be about music, right, as almost like
a suggestion engine or a sampling tool, right or something
like that.
Speaker 3 (41:26):
Well, basically, the implication that he gave was that any
non music content on the radio would be non music
content about music. Yeah, so that tells me it's more
of a you know, like a It reminds me of
the early days of FM radio. Yeah, when you know
(41:48):
you have the they were playing these, you know, crazy
rock tunes that you couldn't hear anywhere else. God knows,
your favorite AM Top forty station wouldn't play them. And
they had DJs that, you know, knew something about the artists,
knew something about the music, and talked about that. I mean,
it may be kind of a return to that because
Pandora is a very music centric experience, and I don't
(42:09):
mean that just in terms of the quality of the content,
but the attraction to people who are interested in music.
Speaker 1 (42:17):
Yeah, I think it's more what built a lot of
music is like a K Rock out of Los Angeles, right,
that would have bands on to talk about the music
and things like that. So is that more like what
you're thinking.
Speaker 3 (42:32):
I don't know if it would be bands, but it
would probably be people who know music.
Speaker 1 (42:36):
Yeah, Okay, I say what you're saying, But it could
be it could be you know, singers, or it could
be bands or whatever that could come through and think it.
Speaker 3 (42:42):
Could be there they go too far down that path.
I think they'll hear about it because anyone who's ever
listened to a band interview knows that few things are
as you know, maybe short of getting teeth pulled. As
unpleasant as that.
Speaker 1 (42:56):
It can be, it can be. You're exactly right. So
I guess if you think about what the history of
broadcast radio has been, it has been fairly siloed into
separate channels. Right, So you have a radio station that's
focused on music, and then you have a radio station
that's focused on talk and live and news, weather and
sports station. And I guess you could draw the same
analogy to apps, right, that could. That's very similar to
(43:20):
that kind of concept in people's minds. My only concern
about that is as you look at ease of use
and simplicity and safety in the car, right around complexity
being able to navigate this this world of apps and
these worlds of content successfully in the car. I don't
know what's your thoughts on that.
Speaker 3 (43:41):
Well, I guess that's where a lot of the heat
is right now. I mean, wasn't it Ford that had
to put knobs back in their car? Yes, because not
because of the complexity of the dash, but because all
those buttons. It just you know, people wanted knobs. People
embrace something that look Knobs are the mechanical equips dilevalent
of radio. People are comfortable with what they're comfortable with,
(44:05):
and you don't fix what ink bro. So the problem
that broadcasters are going to face is not that they
need to be in places in the dashboard that they aren't.
The problem's going to be they need to be worth
listening for people who now have infinitely more choices.
Speaker 1 (44:20):
Yeah, so they need to be better content creators, is
what you're saying.
Speaker 3 (44:24):
Better content creators. And you know what again, if I'm
Clear Channel, if I'm CBS, if I'm Cumulus right now,
and Kevin Smith is out there producing audio content for free, essentially,
I want to do a deal with him, Don't I
Don't I want to do a deal with him. Don't
I want to do a deal with Adam Corolla. Don't
I want to have these assets in my portfolio in
(44:47):
some way? Don't I want to try and monetize this content?
Given this is this may not be the future of radio,
This is the future of attention.
Speaker 1 (44:54):
Yeah. I think that I think you could draw a
similar analogy to what's happening with YouTube and the Big
studio is that there's this kind of this envy that's
starting to brew around video content too, moving from from
the online medium back to broadcasts, and you're seeing podcasts
make that jump too, where there's you know, like a
Mark Marin being successful in podcasting and then taking that
(45:16):
same kind of concept right in the same kind of
show and converting it into a video program or a
TV show. So you have this kind of this cross
media thing. And I think it's back to what you
were talking about, It's just it's about content. Really, this
whole method of distribution gets a little bit becomes a
little bit more, not as relevant to the conversation, right,
(45:38):
It's right.
Speaker 3 (45:39):
I mean, you know, ultimately you're a you're a platform
content company like Paramount Pictures, and what do they do.
They do deals with talent. They they wrap them around projects,
and they spread those projects and that talent different forms,
(46:00):
shapes and sizes across different platforms and then they do
it again. That's what they do. And they don't always work,
and it is not cheap, but when it pays off,
it pays off. Otherwise you wouldn't do it at all.
And I think that's the that's the opportunity going forward
is for Ready to look at some of these things
(46:21):
and say, man, you know what what if we got
in business with Kevin Smith? What would that look like?
You know, what could we what if we have a
meeting with Kevin Smith and we say, Kevin, you know
we're clear channel. What can we do for you? And
then what can you do for us? Let's put aside
what it costs. Let's just talk about what we can
do together. Same for you know, Corolla. Not hey Adam,
(46:43):
we want to hire you for twenty hours a week,
fifty weeks a year. That's the wrong conversation. That's not
the one he wants to have at any price.
Speaker 1 (46:50):
Yeah, he just wants it to be a project that
he can work on the dovetails with what he's already doing. Right,
not necessarily be a standalone job, but it would be
kind of like another way that he can distribute his brand, right,
that the broadcast folks can take advantage of.
Speaker 3 (47:06):
Just that's right, I mean. Kevin Smith told me that
when he does morning radio shows, which he does regularly
because he does them in the markets where he does
live events, he said, the morning radio shows are what
sell the live events. That's what makes the live events
sell out is when he does the morning.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
Radio show, and he makes most of his money.
Speaker 3 (47:22):
And that's how he makes his money from the morning,
from the live events. I mean, you can't get into
that business with somebody. I mean you can't. Again, it's
just I'm incredulous at this the idea that people don't
look at this and say, how do we get in
business with talent such that the talent achieves their goals,
(47:43):
we achieve ours, and together we make something bigger than
either of us could have otherwise. There is no question that,
and I'll just use this as an example. Clear Channel
with Kevin Smith does new, different, profitable things that they
can't do without. And there's no question that Kevin Smith
with clear Channel gets more attention and more money than
he can without, no question.
Speaker 1 (48:03):
Yeah, that's right. So maybe that's something that we're going
to see happen over the next.
Speaker 3 (48:08):
You and I need a broadcastle. That's quite hot.
Speaker 1 (48:12):
Well, anyway, let's talk a little bit about your online
radio conference that you did hi vo.
Speaker 3 (48:18):
Right Ivoh that's right, Yes, as in a hive of
smart people kind of in and around the radio space. Yeah,
it was intended to be kind of the first of
its kind radio ideas festival where we bring in people.
It was here in San Diego a couple of weeks ago.
We bring in at hivo dot Com. We bring in
people hiv Io from outside radio and talk about ideas
(48:39):
that might be relevant to people in radio. I don't
know the whole list of people we had there. We
had everybody from the CEO of the San Diego Union Tribune,
obviously a huge local media company in southern California, to
the head of a digital agency in the area. We
had some entrepreneurs who had some great platforms that they
were pitching to broadcasters. We had a guy who is
(49:00):
the head of something called National Comedy Theater, which does improv,
and he did some improv demos and brought people on
the stage and it was touchy feel. It was awesome
because again, you know what happens behind the mic. That's
why he was there. And you know, nobody ever talks
to improv people about stuff like that. They only talk
to each other. And that's one of the main leave
(49:22):
behinds of the event was we got to stop talking
just amongst ourselves and start reaching out to people outside
of the industry, which is where all the good ideas are,
which where all the ideas are for that matter.
Speaker 1 (49:33):
It's true. That's certainly true. And I know that a
lot of those sessions from that conference are available on
your website.
Speaker 2 (49:39):
Right.
Speaker 3 (49:39):
Well, what we're doing is, you know, as intended as
a media event, not as a money making conference. I mean,
the conference itself was free. It was invitation only. It
was you know, fifty to seventy five seats, and it
was free. And every presentation is going to be one
week at a time. Basically, we're posting him to my
site at Markramesimedia dot com. And so far, we put
(50:03):
up my opening presentation last week. The Q and A
with the CTO of Pandora happens next week. It'll go
up at the top of the week, and that's going
to be exciting, and then we'll keep rolling them out thereafter.
And here's the thing about this is it's getting so
much attention. I mean, the we live streamed it. In
the live streams alone have a communal. I don't know,
(50:25):
it's probably up to about eleven hundred views at this point,
which for a vertical thing in the radio industry is
a lot. I don't know, we're probably between three fifty
and four hundred views on my opening presentation at this point,
and every single one of these is going to do that.
So we're going to have thousands of communal views on
the content of this event, which makes it well larger
than any other radio industry happening this year in terms
(50:48):
of exposure and impact. And my intention, my desire is
to make this as much a movement as an event,
because the theme of the whole thing was content and
platform sure, and without content and platforms, we're just a
utility and who cares about the electric company?
Speaker 1 (51:08):
So are you gonna hold the event next year or two?
Speaker 3 (51:11):
The plan? Well, you know, I have not definitely said yes,
but all signs as as the as the a crystal
ball with all signs point to yes.
Speaker 1 (51:23):
Okay, fantastic, that's great. Well, I'm definitely gonna follow it
and watch all of the videos because I know that,
you know a lot of the things that you talked
about a very similar to what we've talked about today,
but you're actually talking to the industry leaders and people
that are working in different parts of this that can
actually make it happen, So it'll be interesting to follow out.
And then once you also tell us a little bit
(51:45):
about your company, Mark Ramsey Media and what you're trying
to do.
Speaker 3 (51:49):
There sure well, the company, I do two things. I
do strategic research for broadcasters and people like broadcasters, so
people in this space, in around the space television and radio,
and you know, research design to get more audience, get
more engagement, get more ratings, whatever it may be. And
then the other thing I do is really strategy consultations,
(52:11):
so I'll work with brands, I'll work with entrepreneurs, I'll
work with people in and around the radio space trying
to get you know, smart, new forward thinking projects off
the ground, or to try and bring their strategies on
trend and make them more effective. Because you know, there's
so much going When the very definitions of an industry
(52:32):
are in flux, it's a time of great volatility but
also time of great potential, and navigating that path is
really critical. And in order to do that, you've got
to kind of see things clearly. You've got to see
your strengths and weaknesses clearly, you have to see what
the opportunities are clearly, and you have to not read
from you know, industry propaganda bullet points. You have to
(52:53):
recognize that making plans for the future is going to
be much more successful if you make them based on
the truth of today, not the you know, wishful thinking
of today.
Speaker 1 (53:04):
Where are the best places for people listening to this
to read more about you and follow what you're doing.
Speaker 3 (53:10):
The blogs at Markramseymedia dot com, twitters at Mark Ramsey Media,
R A, M. S. E. Y. That's Mark with a K.
And then the event, which is a whole separate sign
up thing is high vo dot com. And what's cool
about that is I'm trying to make that kind of
an exclusive club, So anybody who signs up there, I'm
(53:31):
sending the videos to those people early they get. Last
week I included the SlideShare deck from the presentation, which
I published nowhere else, So I'm trying to put some
exclusive goodies in there too for anybody who bothers to
sign up for iveal.
Speaker 1 (53:47):
Sure, that's great, well, Mark, thanks so much for spending
so much time with me.
Speaker 3 (53:51):
Rob, thank you, and don't be a stranger for another
eight years of course.
Speaker 1 (53:55):
Not no, no. I think we're in a whole new
new phase of podcasting and the line side, and I'm
I'm really excited about it, and you know, I'm really
excited to see what Norm Pettit's from podcast one is
going to pull off. I don't know if you're following
him and what he's doing trying to take the model
that he built around Westwood one and transferring it over
to the online side.
Speaker 3 (54:16):
Yeah, we'll see. It's very interesting.
Speaker 1 (54:17):
Well, Mark, thanks, thank you. Yeah, it was certainly great
to speak with Mark again. Go check out his his
conference website at h I v io dot com and
also his website at Mark Ramsey Media dot com. Well
that's it for this week, and I'm Rob Greenley, the
podcast guy for Windows Phone. Thanks again for listening to
(54:39):
my thoughts here. I also co host the New Media
Show every Saturday morning at nine am Pacific stand of
time noon Eastern time with Todd Cochran, who's the CEO
of Raw Voice, the maker of the power press plug
in for WordPress. You can catch that live show at
Geeknewcentral dot com and you can and also get past
(55:01):
shows at new Mediashow dot com. Is the place to
get the past shows that we've done. And I definitely
want to hear from you on any ideas that you
have for topics for this show and what you think
really about the topics that I cover on this show
and get your ideas. I will definitely mention them on
(55:23):
the show, and if you want to send those to
Rob at Rob Greenley dot com, that'd be great. If
you have a desire to create an audio episode, you're
certainly welcome to send me an MP three and I
can play that and then comment after your comments on
the show. And if you want to reach me on Twitter,
I can also be found at Rob Greenley and you
(55:45):
can also leave comments in my blog at Rob Greenley
dot com. So if you're a podcaster and you want
to get your podcasts into the Windows Phone Zoom podcast
area at Microsoft, shoot me your feed to podcasts at
Microsoft dot com. And thanks for listening this week, and
we'll be back with a new episode next week. Thanks bye,
This is episode seven of My Digital Life with Rob
Greenley for July sixteenth, twenty thirteen. I'm Rob Greenley. Thank
you for listening to the show this week. We're back
after a two week hiatus, but I'm happy to be
(00:20):
back in the seed again. Thank you for tuning in.
The topic this week is the future of in car
and on demand radio and how podcasting and radio content
will blend together in the car. The other thing we'll
discuss is possible changes coming to broadcast radio. Does radio
need some of the current podcast talent to succeed in
(00:43):
the future. We're going to cover all those topics. Yeah,
I'm going to spend a few minutes with broadcast radio
and media research consultant Mark Ramsey from Mark Ramseymedia dot
com to discuss the topics of the week in this episode.
And I can be reached at Rob at Rob Greenley
(01:03):
dot com and that's r O B G R E
E N L E E dot com or on Twitter
at Rob Greenley same spelling, or in iTunes or in
Windows Phones podcast area, Stitcher and SoundCloud is where you
can get this podcast. I manage the podcast on Windows
(01:23):
Phone for Microsoft. And if you have a podcast and
you want to get it in the Windows phone catalog,
please send it to me at the email address podcasts
with an S at Microsoft dot com. So let's dive
into the topic this week. I spoke with Mark Ramsey
back in two thousand and five for my IT Conversation
(01:45):
Network show that I was doing back in two thousand
and five. The show was called web Talk with Rob Greenley,
and I will share a link to that interview in
the blog post so you can optually check it out.
Or we talked about the potential of podcasting in the
face of shrinking radio audiences and how celebrities, major celebrities
(02:07):
will lead the audience growth in podcasting in the early
days of podcasting. So it's a little glimpse back in
time a little bit, and I'll play a little snippet
here from the interview in two thousand and five. It
seems like anyway.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
In the mind, well, you know, satellite radio has a
toe hold, podcasting has a toe hold, Internet radio has
a toe hold. All of these things have only toe holds.
Here's the thing about radio. It's universal. Everyone has many,
not just one. Everyone virtually everyone listens to at least
some And even though people listen less because of internet,
listen less because of podcasts. They still come by the
(02:41):
radio store, they still listen to the radio product. So
when you have access to three hundred and fifty millionaires,
give or take, the question is how you use that access.
The audiences are still lose, is the way I look
at it. Yeah, And you keep or lose an audience
based on the content you provide them, and the more
(03:01):
distinctive and more compelling that content is. And who can
better afford more distinctive and compelling content than an industry
which earns boatloads of money hand over fist today with
one hundred percent distribution. I mean, this is the this
is the wet dream of satellite radio to have that
kind of distribution.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
And also when you think about what the future holds here,
that the whole broadcast area is going to maintain its
dominance too. I mean, from all of the studies that
I've heard about, as a broadcast radio is not going
to diminish its influence or reach in the foreseeable future.
People are just going to augment their radio, their broadcast
(03:41):
radio listeners with podcasting.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Well yes, except you know, for satellite radio to add
a million subscribers. It's a huge boon for them. For
radio to lose a million quarter hours is not that
big a deal. Yeah, well it's you know, because radio,
on the other hand, it's not that big a deal
but in terms of numbers. But it turns out that
when you've got one hundred percent distribution and virtually everyone
(04:05):
listening to you, it doesn't take much for you to
feel a pinch. You know, it's not that big a
deal in terms of raw numbers, but it is that
big a deal overall because everyone's expected to grow annually,
and when you're shrinking, even at one hundred percent, you know,
there's really only one direction to go, and that's that's
(04:25):
a problem because all these other things have a toe hold.
It is radio's audience to lose. But I don't know,
you know, it's as content migrates to some of these
other venues, we'll see. I mean, I just read today
some speculation that Serious and Apple are talking not about
(04:47):
licensing Serious, you know, regular channels, but potentially licensing their
original content to iTunes. And as you you know, as
I'm sure you've talked about, iTunes is going to be
enabling podcasting in their next version so when you put
those pieces together, what you have is original, serious content
(05:09):
potentially available at least for subscription, if not for free
through iTunes for podcasting. And keep in mind that among
that original content starting January one, two thousand and six,
is none other than Howard Stern. You have now a
distribution platform which is potentially vast for a product which
(05:32):
is unquestionably unique and compelling and in demand.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
And I think also when you kind of look at
it from the standpoint of the new cell phones or
mobile phones that are going to be coming out over
the next couple of years that are going to have
you know, always on, you know, connections and be able
to have a massive storage capacity within those phones, you
can really see kind of a new distribution model. But
(05:58):
I guess the question that keeps coming up in my
mind if that does, in fact happen, is that will
that distribution be dominated by talk radio type programming or
will it be dominated by a combination of talk radio
and music, which is what exists right now in the
broadcast radio.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
Well, the difficulty, as you know, is that that there
are licensing issues with music and that are so far
unresolved that someone is to pay to podcast music, and
it's unclear who is to pay in how much and
to whom, So all of that needs to be squared away.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
But there is other types of music out there.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
That that well, there's indie reels. And in fact, one
of my one of my arguments that I made on
a different show is that, you know, I think indie
music has the potential to be a prime driver for
podcasting because you know, it's put out by the people
who own it, and you know it's that that could
be a prime driver in no way as prime as
(06:57):
Howard Stern. That's the thing. So I asked you your question
is original, unique, broad based and compelling content. Star content
is what drives everything. You know, Nelly sells more records
than Joe Blow undeniably, So a Joe Blow indie podcast
(07:19):
would have X amount of distribution and a Nelly podcast
would have X to the tenth power distribution. So the
more Nelli's you create, and by the way, Nellie's are
not going to easily be created by podcasting. They can
profit by podcasting, but they need mass media in order
for their fame to spread. So I think, you know,
(07:46):
music or non it's easier with non music than it
is with music because non music content can be star
content music content, and so these licensing things are worked out,
is going to be Indie content, and you know India
is they call it indy for a reason.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
So what you're saying is that the celebrity is gonna
really be who dominates podcasting.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Well, I mean, look, I mean even though the quality
was poor, look at the Paras Hilton podcast for House
of Wax. I mean, I don't know what the statistics are,
but I would venture a guest that was one of
the most downloaded series of podcasts. Yet well you know
why the quality was horrible of what the content was,
(08:35):
but it didn't matter. A was paras Hiltan and b
was widely promoted by whatever the studio was, Dimension or
whatever it was. Uh So you know that the combination
in other words, of the man, the big corporate behemoth
man putting together the star with the medium. Well you
(08:59):
know that also iTunes and serious and Howard Stern could
be that combination.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
But somewhere in the mix here, this whole grassroots content
creation boom that we're seeing happening is going to play
into this somehow. It just you know, like you were
talking about when you factor in the influence of celebrity
on that it does put put the the distribution more
going to towards celebrity related podcast.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
And I've always believed exactly, I've always believed that it's
going to it's going to be drifting in that direction.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
Yeah, but it's also possible that as you look at
the whole mass of content creation that's going to happen
with podcasting, that the the smaller podcasts, when you aggregate
all those together, could wind up being a significant influence
as well. And that's part of the reason why I
think we're seeing networks a podcasts start to form.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
Here, and well, I think also the reason you're seeing
networks is because people are looking towards an advertising model,
and in order to justify an advertising model, they need
to they need a critical mass, So they need to
form a network for that reason and that reason alone,
because otherwise these things are all individually too small. I mean,
I think that all the grassroots stuff is great, but
(10:14):
you know, just because you can do desktop publishing on
your laser printer doesn't mean you're going to replace the
local newspaper. Just because you can produce a movie on
your laptop. It doesn't mean you're going to be lunching
with Steven Spielberg at at the Polo Lounge. In fact,
very much the opposite is the case. You know, for
every Blair Witch project, there are countless thousands of indie
(10:38):
films which eat up money and go nowhere. So the
ability to create this content and the ability to have
it you know, widely heard, scene remembered, cared about, are
two completely different things. And you know this, now, some
stars may emerge, well.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
We've seen a little bit of that already, I think,
but with who you know, with some you know, some
of the podcasters that have been able to get some
some traction and some press out there.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Yeah, possibly, but you know there are even.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
It's not huge numbers by any means.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
No, But I mean again, if if I think one
of the reasons why Infinity is doing their experiment in
San Francisco with an all podcast radio station is to
to create a farm team of talent, because if they
find anything particularly compelling out of all those contributions, why
not put it on the radio?
Speaker 1 (11:36):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Or it can really do some good, really move some needles,
really generate some revenue, and really you know, satisfy a
lot of listeners.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
Fast forward eight years to twenty thirteen today and how
have things changed? Did we get it right back then?
I have broadcast radio and media research consultant Mark Ramsey
from Mark Ramsey dot com on the line right now
to us the future of radio and podcasting and also
(12:03):
what are the in car experiences that we can expect
around on demand radio and podcasting? Are some hybrid of
the two and what is it going to be like
to combine broadcast radio and on demand radio like podcasting
in the future. Mark, Welcome to the show, Thanks for
joining me.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
Thank you, Rob, happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
Yeah, we go way back. I remember having you on
a show that I did for the IT Conversations network
back in two thousand and five. It was part of
my web talk radio show that I was doing, and
we talked about a lot of cool stuff around the
predictions of what it's happening with radio, because back in
two thousand and five was kind of an early day's
run at at online radio and podcasting was just kicking
(12:46):
off back then, and we talked about radio topics back
then relating to podcasts and online radio and streaming and
how it appeared that those mediums, those new mediums were
going to start taking a chunk of the radio listening time,
and I thought that back then that shift was happening.
Do you think that, thinking back after about eight years
(13:09):
or so, that it's happened to the degree that you
thought it was cock.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
Then, well, I think, first of all, whatever I said
eight years ago, it was all correct. I don't know
what it was, but I'm positive it was correct whatever
it was. So there's that as far as Yeah, I
think what we've been seeing in the interim, First of all,
I think that conversation is I recall dealt a lot
with podcasting in particular, which which particularly new and fresh
(13:34):
at the time. In the interim, I think what we've
really seen is the rise of the proverbial other where
in a fixed amount of time, you can only devote
it to a certain number of places. Yes, you can
share more than one place at a time. I can
watch TV and use a mobile device. I can watch
TV and use a mobile device, and gosh, I guess
(13:55):
I can have the radio on, but I can't listen
to the radio and watch TV at the same time.
So there's a limit to how attention can stretch and
I think, what's It's not so much that all this
stuff eats into everything else. It's that it nudges it
aside a little bit, and that at the end of
the day, it's not that people it's a light switch
(14:16):
thing like VHS to DVD was. It's more of a
kind of soft fade where things share, you know, the
personal bandwidth we call time.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
Yeah, and there's only so much time to go around, right.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
So there is only so much time to go around.
And that, by the way, is why you see take
a look at my opening present from the from the
conference we're going to talk about later, and you'll see
that I share some statistics about the changes in the
average quarter hour rating for radio, which is the fraction
of the population that's listening to radio right now over time,
(14:50):
and the numbers are down. Radio industry, well, folks will
tell you that, you know, there's tons of people listening
to radio, A huge fraction of everybody listens through to
the radio. That may be true, but they're not spending
as much time as they used to. They're not here
as many occasions as they used to be. And the
reason is not just podcasts and Pandora. The reason is
(15:12):
mobile devices and cell phones and iPhones and game boys
and u Xbox and Netflix and everything else that Roku,
everything else that distracts us and video games that attention
that that that target our valuable attention.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
Yeah, and I think that that's a really fascinating point.
I'm not sure that a lot of a lot of
folks in podcasting are in the broadcast or radio business
really think about that. Is that there their new competition
is all these other forms of media out there that
occupy people's people's mind share, right.
Speaker 3 (15:46):
That's right. And the difficulty that audio has in general,
and this is something I'm gearing up to write about this.
I haven't really done it yet, but I've talked to
a couple of people about it. The difficulty of audio
in general is that while a picture is worth a
thousand words, it takes a thousand words to paint a picture.
And in a time when our time is stretched, when
(16:08):
our attention is stretched, we may not want to devote
a thousand words worth of time. We don't devote. You know,
it used to be you'd watch two minutes of a
YouTube video. Now it's like, you know, a six second
vine is more than sufficient. Yeah, I mean The challenge
that audio has is that audio isn't suited to a
(16:30):
to a six second experience, right.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
Yeah, And I think that. I mean, if you look
at places like YouTube, which you know, there's whole kind
of new show shows that are coming online there that
are less than five minutes long, you know, and it's
it's like I come from a generation and I probably
you do as well, that there is an expectation that
content is longer than just two minutes, right. I mean,
(16:53):
it's hard to get a lot of value out of
something that's only two minutes long.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
Well it used to be. But you know, then how
to playing these five minutes shows? How to explain the
fact that, you know, we can say it's not enough
time to deliver content, but then if people get only
two minutes of viewing out of a thirty minute video,
who are we to say that's not enough time?
Speaker 1 (17:12):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (17:12):
Obviously the audience is spoken, and I think in the
audio context, the challenge is going to be that you
know these and I look, I create longer form content myself.
I do it for specialized audience. I recognize it's not
for everybody, but for anybody who's creating content that's intended
for a broad audience. I think there's going to you're
(17:33):
going to have to think through how you capture and
sustain attention, and you're going to have to think through
how to formulate that content so as to match it
to people's desire, ability, and interest to allocate that attention
to you.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Yeah, And I think that's that's a little bit of
the tuggle war that we have going on with content today,
is that oftentimes value comes from having more inform there, right,
versus shorter bites of information tends to be less detailed,
but those tend to get more attention these days because
people are stretched, like you say, for their attention spans.
(18:11):
They don't have a couple of minutes to spend with something.
Or that's how we've trained ourselves now to think about,
you know, in the twitterization of media, is shorter is better,
but it may not necessarily be better in all genres
or all topics. And I think that's the tuggo war
that we have going on right now.
Speaker 3 (18:29):
Well, we have to separate the what we mean by
better from what we mean by popular. Yeah, Because I mean,
you know, I think you look through five ways to
use pinterest for your business I mean, could I could
read that same article one hundred times and we have
five different ways each time, But as long as it's
phrased five ways, yeah, you know, that's what's going to
(18:52):
get read, because it's a lot shorter than ten ways
or a long article with nothing bolded, nothing underlined, and
nothing no. I mean, but it's that kind of editorial
cosmetics almost that we need to apply to audio. And
I would direct people, people like you, people like everybody
quite frankly in this space to one of our most
(19:15):
derided art forms, television news, local television news, because there
they take what could be hours of programming and they
spend a whole lot of time telescoping content, teasing content,
boiling down content, repeating content, excerpting content. I mean, there's
(19:37):
a science to it, and that science is built to grab, capture,
and sustain attention.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
Boy, and it can be frustrating though to go through it. Though.
It's like, when is that segment coming up in that
you know, in the news program that they promoed the
last four breaks.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
Right, yes, speaking is the person who tuned in for
every one of those minutes to get to that segment exactly? Right?
Speaker 1 (19:59):
Exactly? It's it's a struggle. But I oftentimes, and as
you were saying that, I was thinking one interesting way
to think about this is that maybe as content producers
we need to think more about shorter content as a
catalyst for conversation. And maybe that's where the justification really
hits the road, is that maybe over time here, maybe
(20:21):
we're all going to become content providers that contribute to
the discussion that happens by the audience.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
Right, what YouTube refer to as a catalyst for conversation,
I would call a tease. Yeah, you know, I mean,
for example, that's.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Kind of that's kind of what talk radio was really
built on, right.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
Yes, but talk radio is also built on the notion
that I'm going to talk for three hours today, three
hours tomorrow, three hours the next three days after that,
and if you miss any portion of what I talk about,
don't worry, because I'll be back tomorrow talking about just
about the same thing for the same length of time,
(21:00):
and you don't really miss anything. It's very much like
soap operas. Talk radio is like soap operas. You know,
you miss a day, you miss almost nothing. I had
a conversation with somebody, and I will not mention who
who was referring to a major talk radio talent and said,
you know, if we just reran his show from last
week today, would anybody notice? And somebody else in the
(21:21):
meeting said, last week, we could rerun his show from
last year and nobody would notice. Now, whenever that's the case,
what you're creating is wallpaper audio wallpaper. You're not really
creating something that is certainly for audience which have as
many choices as we have today in as many ways
(21:41):
to exercise those choices. That's the fundamental gap between kind
of spoken so called spoken word radio and all the
stuff that we can do online.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
Yeah, with that, you know, part of what we talked
about back in two thousand and five was the shrinking
audience for broadcast and how that's going to impact you know,
kind of major trustrial broadcasters. How do you think that
the major trustrial broadcasters are are kind of adjusting to
this new.
Speaker 3 (22:09):
World kicking and screaming with the emphasis side the emphasis
on screaming. And there's also look part of again, watch
the opening presentation I did for my high vo conference,
and you'll see how I lay this out because I said, look,
you know, the statistics that have been popularized in the
radio industry say more listeners than ever, et cetera, et cetera.
(22:31):
And when I show you the stats that say the
fraction of the population listening right now to the radio
is off nine percent in the past two years alone,
I mean, that's a chilling statistic. But I said, the
reason for that statistic isn't just paint some kind of,
you know, dank, dark picture about radio. It's to say
the radio is no different from any other major medium
(22:53):
with mass attention, television, film, They've all suffered this. People
are consuming as much more content than ever before, they're
just not doing it in the traditional channels to the
same extent. And why in the world would radio be different.
So when you buy into the notion that radio is
not different from those things, that it's not quite unquote
special compared to those things, then you have a basis
(23:15):
to plan that's based on reality rather than based on
you know, rainbows and unicorns. And I like to base
the future on reality. And I think a lot of
the broadcasters that are kicking and screaming are arguing that
nothing's broken. Where as relevant as ever, whereas used as ever,
(23:37):
people are here in the same numbers they always have been.
We're just not telling our story well enough. That to
me is naive.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Yeah. Well, it's also that erosion is happening, like you said,
to all the traditional media, I mean even movies there.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
And it's okay, right.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
They're happening because there's a lot more competition for people's
attention now.
Speaker 3 (23:54):
It's okay, yeah, if you go to Paramount. I just
read a book that I'm reading a book now that
talks about it talks about Linda Oaps is Sleepless in
Hollywood I think it's called and she talks about her
time at Paramount on the TV side, and she said
she goes into Paramount and Paramount views itself as a
multi platform content company. Paramount Pictures a multi platform content company.
(24:17):
And you know, ironically, one of the themes of my
presentation the other week was content and platforms. Content and platforms.
What's the solution to shrinking attention. It's content and platforms.
It's being in more places, in more forms, whatever the
form is that fits that place for that particular audience,
and it's providing content that's worth seeking out. This, by
the way, is the fundamental opportunity in the dashboard too.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Yeah, it's just well, it's just moving to where people
are moving to, right, I mean, as a content around,
you have to move to where your audience is more
likely to be. And I think it's really just as
simple as that. And that's I think that the radio
folks have kind of forgotten about, probably up to this point,
is that their audience is shifting they need to shift to.
Speaker 3 (24:59):
Well, part of the challenge is that there, you know,
radio is evaluated based on radio ratings, and radio ratings
are passive instruments, so they'll, you know, they'll they'll passively
measure what audio signals are in the area. And that's fine,
but that is a universe of radio stations only, right,
(25:20):
So when I spend my time listening to a podcast,
all of that is off the shelf. When I spend
my time watching a Netflix, all of that is off
the shelf. When I spend my time, you know, playing
a video game, that's off the shelf. So wherever that
attention goes, wherever my time goes. If it's not to
another radio station, it's not measured. And if it's not measured,
(25:41):
it doesn't exist to radio. And if it doesn't exist,
how are they supposed to respond to us strategically, So
sooner or later, the business models need to catch up
with the choices available to consumers. Because here's what's going
to happen. Dollars will follow attention. Dollars will follow attention.
It may not be steady, it may not proportional, and
(26:01):
it may not be fast, but it is inevitable.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Yeah. And one other thing that we talked about back
back eight years ago was how Major reminded me about
this eight years then, that major celebrities were going to
lead the audience growth for podcasting, And I know, as
you think about it today, nothing's really changed in that front.
I think it's really fascinating if you think about broadcast
radio celebrities, right, like the Howard Stearns and the Sean
(26:27):
Hannity's and those those kind of folks that have built big,
big celebrity status around radio. A lot of those folks
are not really building big celebrity statuses on podcasting yet.
And there's a whole fresh new breed of the Kevin
Smiths and the Adam Krolaz and some of these guys
have been able to make that shift, right, But where
(26:49):
do you see the whole development of major media celebrities
becoming big spoken word audio creators.
Speaker 3 (26:56):
Look, the reason why you have a radio show rather
than open doors on a podcast is because you get
much more attention, much quicker, and that invites you know,
besides the money, if there is any, you get much
more attention, much quicker. That's why even the people with
the podcast would trade their right arm for a radio
gig on top of that podcast, or at least a
(27:18):
radio piece to the podcast. Pie. Certainly Kevin Smith would, yeah, but.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
I say that quite a few of them, like an
Adam Kroller, would not.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
He says he would not. But if someone went to
Adam and said, Adam, with no additional work on your part,
we're going to air some of your podcasts and we're
going to write you the following check, Adam would say yes,
thank you sir. What Adam doesn't want to do is
trade in his podcast Empire and get another radio job
where he is to get up at four in the morning,
(27:45):
five days a week for four hours. And I don't
blame it, you know, I mean, this is part of
the problem. The problem is that Kevin Smith doesn't produce
nearly the amount of content that we expect the average
radio talk host to produce because the Internet doesn't require that.
You know, you and I as listeners don't require that.
Even radio listeners don't require that. Look, the reason why
(28:06):
radio talk radio shows are three hours long, five days
a week isn't because the average person listens to fifteen
hours of content.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
It's tuning in and out.
Speaker 3 (28:15):
Right, they're tuning in in and out. So, in other words,
it's built to be grazed, not to be consumed front
to back. So the stuff that podcasts are creating are
built ideally to be consumed front to back. You don't
need as much the problem that you know, that's a
challenge for broadcasters because in an ideal world, broadcasters would say, well,
(28:36):
here's this wealth of content Adam Carolla is creating. You
mean to tell me I can't figure out a way
to put that on my air and monetize that without
having fifteen hours of it a week or twenty hours
a week. Seriously, I mean, we're asking too much of people,
and that's why the talented people would rather put a
blue NeSSI mic on their table and record a radio
(28:56):
show for one hour a week, whether it's Ayisha Tyler,
Kevin Smith or Adam Carolla or now John Lovetz he's
going to do his own.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
Yeah, I've seeing that. I've never seen a successful podcast
do three hours of content a day.
Speaker 3 (29:13):
No, but you see our radio shows that repurpose their
shows as podcasts, in those run three hours a day,
and while they get downloaded a lot, I'm sure most
of it's not consumed. It can't possibly be consumed.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
It's too much.
Speaker 3 (29:25):
It's just too much. So the problem is, how do
you have this twenty four to seven three sixty five
broadcasting asset and make use of all this incredible content,
some of which may be very short short form.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
Yeah. And also one other piece to this pie too,
is is that a lot of those podcasters that are
used to the freedom that exists on the digital side
with podcasting for language and length is also a big
factor there too. They can vary their weekly show or
their daily show. It can be twenty minutes, it can
(29:57):
be an hour and a half, whatever they want to make.
It's not locked into a certain duration, and that would
be one big hindrance. So I would say, for like
Kevin Smith, is is around language right.
Speaker 3 (30:09):
Well, you know, but and Kevin said to me, though
he said, you know, look, I could work clean. And
not only can you work clean, but if I'm a
broadcast company and someone's providing the name brand, top drawer
content and all I have to do is hire an
editor for ten dollars an hour, I can hire an
editor for ten dollars an hour and they can edit
that show. And the question is, you know, if you
(30:31):
can run Loveline at ten pm at night Monday through Friday,
or whatever the heck it is, you know, why couldn't
you theoretically run you know, Kevin Smith's show or an
Adam Carolla show in that So why doesn't that make
economic sense? Why hasn't someone done that deal? Why haven't
broadcasters evolved to the kind of model that they had
back in the forties where they were dealing with exclusive
(30:55):
content until television stole it. Here we go again. We've
got an op opportunity for more exclusive content. And for
any of these podcasts, Yes, they have their audiences, and
in many cases their audiences are big, their audience is
pale in comparison to what they could be if they
were exposed on the radio, flat out, unambiguously.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
So what's going to happen here is it going to evolve.
This content's going to evolve to be more like radio
or is it going to be evolved to be more
like online radio like a podcast. I mean, what's the
ultimate destination of this? Or are we going to continue
to see two worlds coexist? I mean, as you think
about it, I know we're going to move into talking about,
(31:38):
you know, in car experiences, and I think that that question,
I think kind of galvanizes that topic, right is how
are those worlds going to kind of come together? Right?
Speaker 3 (31:49):
Well, I think it's all part of one big world.
This is what's not understood well among broadcasters that there's
no such thing as radio is apart from Pandora, as
apart from podcasts. It's all part of one big spectrum.
If you take it out far enough, you could argue, well,
even video as part of that same spectrum. I'm working
with people now to do video versions of their radio stations.
Why not if it can be engineered and presented on
(32:12):
the plat on the digital platform, why shouldn't people be
able to tap into a video version of my radio
station such that all the songs roll one into the next,
just like a video music channel. Back in the day,
but it's my curated list of content, it's my DJs
with cameras in front of their faces.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
Why not.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
Yeah, well, let's go ahead and dive into the whole
topic of radio in the car, right and how that's
going to kind of evolve and change here. And I mean,
because we're already starting to see the early stages of that.
And at a fairly recent radio conference, I don't remember
what the name of it was, there was some panelists
from some car manufacturers that were saying that there's a
(32:52):
plan or thought to remove AMFM radios from cars sometime
in the next five years or less. And I got
the impression that that really kind of rattled the radio industry.
What was your observation when that happened?
Speaker 3 (33:05):
That turned out to be very much a misquote, that
was a misremembering of the conversation, And when that conversation
was recalled was and when he went back to his
notes or the audio and that conversation, he realized that
he had completely misconstrued what that individual said. That individual
did not imply what you just said. So, I mean,
(33:25):
but the evidence is quite clear. Look, anybody who understands
consumers know that nobody wants anything taken away. They only
want things added the people who want who I want
the choice of not using a VHS anymore, thank you
very much. I don't want you to choose it for me.
And when enough people like me make our choice, that's
when you make yours, and not until then, you don't
(33:47):
arbitrarily tell me what my options are going to be,
mister automaker. So that AMFN thing was always a misunderstanding
from the get go. The automakers do plenty of research
and know exactly what people want, so I'm not worried
about that at all.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
So to kind of jump into that, where the reality
of that comment came from was what was the fact
that there's going to be more experiences coming into the
car that will be connected up with either your mobile
phone or directly connected to three G or four G
networks into the head unit of the vehicle itself. So
basically what's going to happen is that the car is
going to become like a mobile computer. Basically that's going
(34:26):
to have apps, and the Pandora apps or stitch your
apps or whatever service that you want to want to
use will ultimately be probably available in your car through
either through your phone or through the head unit of
the vehicle. And how do you think that if that
in fact is the case, that that's the direction of
(34:48):
things are going that certainly looks like it, how do
you think that's going to impact the radio industry? How
are they going to you think evolve with that scenario.
Speaker 3 (34:56):
I think they're going about it the wrong way so far,
because the way they're going about it so is, you know,
let's be everywhere, let's have you know, have mobile apps,
let's be accessible in the car in more ways and
forms and so on. I think you need to recognize
that if people stray, they're going to stray because something
is compelling them to do, something is attracting them. So
(35:19):
success in the car is increasingly going to be about
attracting people to a destination, not about defending turf that
was yours simply because it was a black box nobody
could gain access to, which is historically how it's been.
It's been either you know, eight tracks, cassettes, CDs, now
(35:41):
chords going into your iPhones, ultimately just about anything. So
this notion that radio used to own kind of the
dynamic content in the car. Now radio will be one
of many ways to get dynamic content in the car.
So what's going to happen, Well, the advantage is going
to shift to the most compelling dynamic content in the car,
(36:03):
and most compelling. Maybe compelling for me is different from
compelling for you. So in other words, it should be
a battle for content. It should be about having the
most unique and compelling content they possibly can have, especially
since radio uniquely right now has the ability to kind
of attract groom and popularize that kind of content. At
(36:27):
least it has that possibility. Whether it's whether it's exercising
it or not, it's another question.
Speaker 1 (36:32):
So where do you see satellite radio fitting into the
picture here?
Speaker 3 (36:36):
I think satellite radio is going to continue to tinker along,
to tick along and grow modestly year after year. I mean,
it's basically built into every new car. Now you have
to decide not to take it. You don't decide to
take it. That's a critical thing, by the way, I mean,
who wouldn't want there. It would be like putting your
podcast on every new car and say you're subscribed for
(36:59):
six months. After that you have to decide to cancel it.
It's versus Hey, hopefully you'll find out about this. Hopefully
you'll stick this on your car, hopefully you'll subscribe to this. Well,
one is infinitely more likely than the other. It's way
more difficult to cancel satellite radio than it is to
sign up for it. So the fact that it's built
(37:21):
in standard equipment makes all the difference in the world.
That means people have to stop using it. So I
think it's going to continue to chug along in and
continue to be a valid source for attention. Certainly, they've
got a lot of you know, quality content on there
in addition to the you know, the music channels will
be pretty redundant to what you can get from other places.
(37:42):
But if I'm accustomed to being in a satellite radio environment,
why do I need the other places?
Speaker 2 (37:47):
You know?
Speaker 3 (37:47):
Pandora's a great solution if I want to personalize my music,
But it's not a great solution if I just want
a good jazz station, or a good hip hop station,
or a good pop station. I can get that from serious.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
Yeah, or even a good spoken word program or station. Right.
Speaker 3 (38:03):
Well, you know with Pandora, that's right, and that's that's
another conversation we can have.
Speaker 1 (38:10):
Yeah. So, given the history of radio, you know, it's
been focused primarily on local live events, music, talk, news, talk,
and other spoken content. So as you think about Pandora,
Pandora is very focused on music, right, It's trying to
create a terrific experience around music. It seems to me
(38:30):
like either one of two things is going to happen.
Either one or more of these big music platforms is
going to adopt the full spectrum of what people expect
from radio, or we're going to have just like the
iPhone today, there's separate apps for everything, right, and you
have to have this, you know, a separate app for
talk radio, separate app for live events, a separate app
(38:52):
for music, and separate app for this and that. And
how do you see that playing out?
Speaker 3 (38:57):
Well, you know, I think that's going to be an
attempt to create, you know, a rainbow of options including
all of the above. I mean, that's what's certainly what's
going to be created is all of the above. Now,
what's going to be popular may not be all of
the above, because you have this these conflicting realities. On
the one hand, there's going to be a temptation to
(39:18):
pack in more features right. On the other hand, the
stuff that's most easily communicated is the stuff that's simplest
to convey, and the simpler you are, the more single
focus the problem you solve. Right, So, yeah, here's the
live event app. Great, here's the only personalized music app. Great,
you start grouping that together. Now I can get news
(39:39):
in my personalized music. Okay, well I didn't know about that. Okay,
Now I can turn on and off personalities. Okay, well
I don't know if I need that or not. But
it's a little hard to describe. And the herd the
more stuff you pack in, the harder it is to describe,
and the shakier the assumption that you're solving a problem,
and the more it looks like what you really doing
(40:00):
is trying to recreate radio on a different platform. And
the thing about radio is that it works quite well
for what it does, for what it's intended to do,
and for what people to look to it for. It
is great. Radio does a great job. We don't look
to our radio to be personalized. We don't look to
our radio to be commercial free. We say we wish
it were, but we also are not inclined to pay
(40:21):
for it. And if we are, there are ways to
do that, and most people clearly do not. So, you know,
what we say we want and what we we gravitate
for are two different things. There's going to be a
temptation for nice, clean, lean things like a Pandora to grow,
you know, warts all over the place in a search
for new listener value propositions. And as their CTO said
(40:47):
to me, you know at the high View event a
couple of weeks ago, they're going to move very cautiously
down that path because they don't know, first of all,
that they need to. There's this expectation they will from
this notion that somehow everything's going to end up looking
like radio and radio like everything else. But I don't
think that's necessarily true. He did, however, hint of where
(41:08):
they would likely evolve if they evolve out of music only,
and I thought that was pretty interesting.
Speaker 1 (41:14):
Actually, yeah, I think it was something around the making
shows that would be about music, right, as almost like
a suggestion engine or a sampling tool, right or something
like that.
Speaker 3 (41:26):
Well, basically, the implication that he gave was that any
non music content on the radio would be non music
content about music. Yeah, so that tells me it's more
of a you know, like a It reminds me of
the early days of FM radio. Yeah, when you know
(41:48):
you have the they were playing these, you know, crazy
rock tunes that you couldn't hear anywhere else. God knows,
your favorite AM Top forty station wouldn't play them. And
they had DJs that, you know, knew something about the artists,
knew something about the music, and talked about that. I mean,
it may be kind of a return to that because
Pandora is a very music centric experience, and I don't
(42:09):
mean that just in terms of the quality of the content,
but the attraction to people who are interested in music.
Speaker 1 (42:17):
Yeah, I think it's more what built a lot of
music is like a K Rock out of Los Angeles, right,
that would have bands on to talk about the music
and things like that. So is that more like what
you're thinking.
Speaker 3 (42:32):
I don't know if it would be bands, but it
would probably be people who know music.
Speaker 1 (42:36):
Yeah, Okay, I say what you're saying, But it could
be it could be you know, singers, or it could
be bands or whatever that could come through and think it.
Speaker 3 (42:42):
Could be there they go too far down that path.
I think they'll hear about it because anyone who's ever
listened to a band interview knows that few things are
as you know, maybe short of getting teeth pulled. As
unpleasant as that.
Speaker 1 (42:56):
It can be, it can be. You're exactly right. So
I guess if you think about what the history of
broadcast radio has been, it has been fairly siloed into
separate channels. Right, So you have a radio station that's
focused on music, and then you have a radio station
that's focused on talk and live and news, weather and
sports station. And I guess you could draw the same
analogy to apps, right, that could. That's very similar to
(43:20):
that kind of concept in people's minds. My only concern
about that is as you look at ease of use
and simplicity and safety in the car, right around complexity
being able to navigate this this world of apps and
these worlds of content successfully in the car. I don't
know what's your thoughts on that.
Speaker 3 (43:41):
Well, I guess that's where a lot of the heat
is right now. I mean, wasn't it Ford that had
to put knobs back in their car? Yes, because not
because of the complexity of the dash, but because all
those buttons. It just you know, people wanted knobs. People
embrace something that look Knobs are the mechanical equips dilevalent
of radio. People are comfortable with what they're comfortable with,
(44:05):
and you don't fix what ink bro. So the problem
that broadcasters are going to face is not that they
need to be in places in the dashboard that they aren't.
The problem's going to be they need to be worth
listening for people who now have infinitely more choices.
Speaker 1 (44:20):
Yeah, so they need to be better content creators, is
what you're saying.
Speaker 3 (44:24):
Better content creators. And you know what again, if I'm
Clear Channel, if I'm CBS, if I'm Cumulus right now,
and Kevin Smith is out there producing audio content for free, essentially,
I want to do a deal with him, Don't I
Don't I want to do a deal with him. Don't
I want to do a deal with Adam Corolla. Don't
I want to have these assets in my portfolio in
(44:47):
some way? Don't I want to try and monetize this content?
Given this is this may not be the future of radio,
This is the future of attention.
Speaker 1 (44:54):
Yeah. I think that I think you could draw a
similar analogy to what's happening with YouTube and the Big
studio is that there's this kind of this envy that's
starting to brew around video content too, moving from from
the online medium back to broadcasts, and you're seeing podcasts
make that jump too, where there's you know, like a
Mark Marin being successful in podcasting and then taking that
(45:16):
same kind of concept right in the same kind of
show and converting it into a video program or a
TV show. So you have this kind of this cross
media thing. And I think it's back to what you
were talking about, It's just it's about content. Really, this
whole method of distribution gets a little bit becomes a
little bit more, not as relevant to the conversation, right,
(45:38):
It's right.
Speaker 3 (45:39):
I mean, you know, ultimately you're a you're a platform
content company like Paramount Pictures, and what do they do.
They do deals with talent. They they wrap them around projects,
and they spread those projects and that talent different forms,
(46:00):
shapes and sizes across different platforms and then they do
it again. That's what they do. And they don't always work,
and it is not cheap, but when it pays off,
it pays off. Otherwise you wouldn't do it at all.
And I think that's the that's the opportunity going forward
is for Ready to look at some of these things
(46:21):
and say, man, you know what what if we got
in business with Kevin Smith? What would that look like?
You know, what could we what if we have a
meeting with Kevin Smith and we say, Kevin, you know
we're clear channel. What can we do for you? And
then what can you do for us? Let's put aside
what it costs. Let's just talk about what we can
do together. Same for you know, Corolla. Not hey Adam,
(46:43):
we want to hire you for twenty hours a week,
fifty weeks a year. That's the wrong conversation. That's not
the one he wants to have at any price.
Speaker 1 (46:50):
Yeah, he just wants it to be a project that
he can work on the dovetails with what he's already doing. Right,
not necessarily be a standalone job, but it would be
kind of like another way that he can distribute his brand, right,
that the broadcast folks can take advantage of.
Speaker 3 (47:06):
Just that's right, I mean. Kevin Smith told me that
when he does morning radio shows, which he does regularly
because he does them in the markets where he does
live events, he said, the morning radio shows are what
sell the live events. That's what makes the live events
sell out is when he does the morning.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
Radio show, and he makes most of his money.
Speaker 3 (47:22):
And that's how he makes his money from the morning,
from the live events. I mean, you can't get into
that business with somebody. I mean you can't. Again, it's
just I'm incredulous at this the idea that people don't
look at this and say, how do we get in
business with talent such that the talent achieves their goals,
(47:43):
we achieve ours, and together we make something bigger than
either of us could have otherwise. There is no question that,
and I'll just use this as an example. Clear Channel
with Kevin Smith does new, different, profitable things that they
can't do without. And there's no question that Kevin Smith
with clear Channel gets more attention and more money than
he can without, no question.
Speaker 1 (48:03):
Yeah, that's right. So maybe that's something that we're going
to see happen over the next.
Speaker 3 (48:08):
You and I need a broadcastle. That's quite hot.
Speaker 1 (48:12):
Well, anyway, let's talk a little bit about your online
radio conference that you did hi vo.
Speaker 3 (48:18):
Right Ivoh that's right, Yes, as in a hive of
smart people kind of in and around the radio space. Yeah,
it was intended to be kind of the first of
its kind radio ideas festival where we bring in people.
It was here in San Diego a couple of weeks ago.
We bring in at hivo dot Com. We bring in
people hiv Io from outside radio and talk about ideas
(48:39):
that might be relevant to people in radio. I don't
know the whole list of people we had there. We
had everybody from the CEO of the San Diego Union Tribune,
obviously a huge local media company in southern California, to
the head of a digital agency in the area. We
had some entrepreneurs who had some great platforms that they
were pitching to broadcasters. We had a guy who is
(49:00):
the head of something called National Comedy Theater, which does improv,
and he did some improv demos and brought people on
the stage and it was touchy feel. It was awesome
because again, you know what happens behind the mic. That's
why he was there. And you know, nobody ever talks
to improv people about stuff like that. They only talk
to each other. And that's one of the main leave
(49:22):
behinds of the event was we got to stop talking
just amongst ourselves and start reaching out to people outside
of the industry, which is where all the good ideas are,
which where all the ideas are for that matter.
Speaker 1 (49:33):
It's true. That's certainly true. And I know that a
lot of those sessions from that conference are available on
your website.
Speaker 2 (49:39):
Right.
Speaker 3 (49:39):
Well, what we're doing is, you know, as intended as
a media event, not as a money making conference. I mean,
the conference itself was free. It was invitation only. It
was you know, fifty to seventy five seats, and it
was free. And every presentation is going to be one
week at a time. Basically, we're posting him to my
site at Markramesimedia dot com. And so far, we put
(50:03):
up my opening presentation last week. The Q and A
with the CTO of Pandora happens next week. It'll go
up at the top of the week, and that's going
to be exciting, and then we'll keep rolling them out thereafter.
And here's the thing about this is it's getting so
much attention. I mean, the we live streamed it. In
the live streams alone have a communal. I don't know,
(50:25):
it's probably up to about eleven hundred views at this point,
which for a vertical thing in the radio industry is
a lot. I don't know, we're probably between three fifty
and four hundred views on my opening presentation at this point,
and every single one of these is going to do that.
So we're going to have thousands of communal views on
the content of this event, which makes it well larger
than any other radio industry happening this year in terms
(50:48):
of exposure and impact. And my intention, my desire is
to make this as much a movement as an event,
because the theme of the whole thing was content and
platform sure, and without content and platforms, we're just a
utility and who cares about the electric company?
Speaker 1 (51:08):
So are you gonna hold the event next year or two?
Speaker 3 (51:11):
The plan? Well, you know, I have not definitely said yes,
but all signs as as the as the a crystal
ball with all signs point to yes.
Speaker 1 (51:23):
Okay, fantastic, that's great. Well, I'm definitely gonna follow it
and watch all of the videos because I know that,
you know a lot of the things that you talked
about a very similar to what we've talked about today,
but you're actually talking to the industry leaders and people
that are working in different parts of this that can
actually make it happen, So it'll be interesting to follow out.
And then once you also tell us a little bit
(51:45):
about your company, Mark Ramsey Media and what you're trying
to do.
Speaker 3 (51:49):
There sure well, the company, I do two things. I
do strategic research for broadcasters and people like broadcasters, so
people in this space, in around the space television and radio,
and you know, research design to get more audience, get
more engagement, get more ratings, whatever it may be. And
then the other thing I do is really strategy consultations,
(52:11):
so I'll work with brands, I'll work with entrepreneurs, I'll
work with people in and around the radio space trying
to get you know, smart, new forward thinking projects off
the ground, or to try and bring their strategies on
trend and make them more effective. Because you know, there's
so much going When the very definitions of an industry
(52:32):
are in flux, it's a time of great volatility but
also time of great potential, and navigating that path is
really critical. And in order to do that, you've got
to kind of see things clearly. You've got to see
your strengths and weaknesses clearly, you have to see what
the opportunities are clearly, and you have to not read
from you know, industry propaganda bullet points. You have to
(52:53):
recognize that making plans for the future is going to
be much more successful if you make them based on
the truth of today, not the you know, wishful thinking
of today.
Speaker 1 (53:04):
Where are the best places for people listening to this
to read more about you and follow what you're doing.
Speaker 3 (53:10):
The blogs at Markramseymedia dot com, twitters at Mark Ramsey Media,
R A, M. S. E. Y. That's Mark with a K.
And then the event, which is a whole separate sign
up thing is high vo dot com. And what's cool
about that is I'm trying to make that kind of
an exclusive club, So anybody who signs up there, I'm
(53:31):
sending the videos to those people early they get. Last
week I included the SlideShare deck from the presentation, which
I published nowhere else, So I'm trying to put some
exclusive goodies in there too for anybody who bothers to
sign up for iveal.
Speaker 1 (53:47):
Sure, that's great, well, Mark, thanks so much for spending
so much time with me.
Speaker 3 (53:51):
Rob, thank you, and don't be a stranger for another
eight years of course.
Speaker 1 (53:55):
Not no, no. I think we're in a whole new
new phase of podcasting and the line side, and I'm
I'm really excited about it, and you know, I'm really
excited to see what Norm Pettit's from podcast one is
going to pull off. I don't know if you're following
him and what he's doing trying to take the model
that he built around Westwood one and transferring it over
to the online side.
Speaker 3 (54:16):
Yeah, we'll see. It's very interesting.
Speaker 1 (54:17):
Well, Mark, thanks, thank you. Yeah, it was certainly great
to speak with Mark again. Go check out his his
conference website at h I v io dot com and
also his website at Mark Ramsey Media dot com. Well
that's it for this week, and I'm Rob Greenley, the
podcast guy for Windows Phone. Thanks again for listening to
(54:39):
my thoughts here. I also co host the New Media
Show every Saturday morning at nine am Pacific stand of
time noon Eastern time with Todd Cochran, who's the CEO
of Raw Voice, the maker of the power press plug
in for WordPress. You can catch that live show at
Geeknewcentral dot com and you can and also get past
(55:01):
shows at new Mediashow dot com. Is the place to
get the past shows that we've done. And I definitely
want to hear from you on any ideas that you
have for topics for this show and what you think
really about the topics that I cover on this show
and get your ideas. I will definitely mention them on
(55:23):
the show, and if you want to send those to
Rob at Rob Greenley dot com, that'd be great. If
you have a desire to create an audio episode, you're
certainly welcome to send me an MP three and I
can play that and then comment after your comments on
the show. And if you want to reach me on Twitter,
I can also be found at Rob Greenley and you
(55:45):
can also leave comments in my blog at Rob Greenley
dot com. So if you're a podcaster and you want
to get your podcasts into the Windows Phone Zoom podcast
area at Microsoft, shoot me your feed to podcasts at
Microsoft dot com. And thanks for listening this week, and
we'll be back with a new episode next week. Thanks bye,
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The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.