Behind Fear /w Editor/Director: Phil McLaughlin

Episode Transcript
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(00:08):
Squawking dead. We are squawking Dead a podcast
pulverizing episodes beyond. The Walking Dead universe.
I'm your host David Cameo, and I'm joined by Sharon DAK, Blasi

(00:29):
Gardner and Bridget KO dashafi.com/punky Brewster.
That's PONKYBRUISETER. And we're here with a very
special guest, a director on Fear of The Walking Dead.
Namely, the episode you may havejust seen, which is Fear of The
Walking Dead's 9th episode in its 8th and final season titled
Sanctuary. Thanks for coming on, Phil.

(00:50):
Thanks for having me. I saw on on your Instagram that
you'd posted that you started asthe assistant editor and then
you moved up to editor and now you've directed an episode.
How long were you in each? Yeah, so I started in season one
on the Show 1 of Few. That kind of made it the whole
run as an assistant editor in season one, which was a six

(01:10):
episode season. So I was technically only on
episode 4. It opened with Travis on a jog,
I believe. Perfect day.
I think that was Travis running.That's also but that's feels
like that's over a decade ago now.
And then I came back for season 2 as an assistant editor and by
the end of that season I Co edited episode 214 and then I

(01:33):
actually left at the beginning of season three to edit on ACBS
show that only lasted for one season called Pure Genius.
That was like a near future medical tech procedural, but.
Came back to do a swing, what wecall Swing episode where the
schedule got so crazy that it's sort of behooved them to bring

(01:54):
in another team and take over anepisode.
So I ended up editing episode three O 7 where you know,
everything kind of falls at. I believe we were on the ranch
in that season ahead of kind of Mercedes running out and there's
some cool Alicia stuff in that episode and you know, we had
like a kind of near scalping. In that episode, yeah.

(02:16):
And then I came back full time season four, when we had a
little bit of a sort of regime change and have been there
season four through now as another, even after directing,
came back and still edited one more at next week's episode.
It's kind of a a Unicorn type ofshow to have it run as long as
it did and to be able to move upthe way that I did.

(02:37):
And it's really just a testamentto the the type of crew that.
The show has in front of them behind the camera.
It's really very collaborative and supportive and kind of
affords you those opportunities to take chances and and prove
yourself and and earn those types of opportunities.
One of the things I loved about the show in season four and five
is that you guys did try different things, AL's cameras

(02:58):
and stuff like that. And even in dreams, which I
hated so much, I still, I still like that you tried something
different. It just didn't vibe with me.
But guilty admission, Everybody knows this.
I've not seen season one throughthree.
I started watching in for and that's I tried.
You guys do try different thingsand take chances.
Even if people don't always likeit.
At least you did it. Yeah, and that's made it fun to

(03:20):
work on, too, because we get to experiment a little bit and
bring a lot to the table as an editor and a creator.
Like, I feel like I've gotten toreally scratch that itch to be
creative and to be a storyteller.
On my side, which is not always the case, sometimes as an
editor, you might feel like you're just kind of a pair of
hands or you, you know, you happen to know the software that

(03:41):
you're using and then people aredictating things to you.
But I I feel like on this show especially, I've gotten the
opportunity to really, you know,have those conversations with
our directors and with our producers and and and try things
out and experiment and especially when we're doing
things stylistically a little bit different or changing it up
episode to episode. You get to exercise like a
different part of your brain andit's like a new puzzle to try to

(04:02):
to put together. So it's the case that on most
shows or movies, movies more particularly, you get thrown a
lot of input and direction on how things won't need to be cut.
Or basically what you're saying is that in a sense, you had your
own creative input in the editor's booth, basically?
Yeah, I think that you get it's a little of both.
Television in particular, is kind of a showrunner, writer,
showrunner's medium. You're all sort of serving that

(04:24):
general vision and you learn tastes and you learn preferences
and you can kind of cater to that while still taking swings
or still trying to diplomatically or or politically
steer things one way or the other.
And then you're getting a mix ofrecurring directors or producing
directors, in our case, Michael Satrazemas coming over from The
Walking Dead. And he's really.

(04:46):
Kind of spearheading what the visual language of the show is
and and sort of overseeing a lotof our guest directors and
affording us that certain level of continuity in the production.
But then guest directors come inand they're interpreting all of
this information and the characters and the story and
then trying to deliver and servetheir masters certainly, but
also and try to impose a little bit of their own perspective and

(05:10):
point of view into the show as well.
And then as an editor, I think that you are this.
Line between the director and producer.
And you are kind of trying to set the directors up for success
in the eyes of the producers while also trying to make the
best version of an episode you can with the material that you
get this evolution from script through production through post.

(05:30):
I mean, there's sort of this kind of hokey adage that it gets
rewritten three times or howevermany times, but it's it's really
kind of true and I think the best directors and the best
producers really embrace that. This is what was shot.
This is what we have. Like, what is the best version
of this episode that we can make?
And I do feel like that's sort of the rule on our show is like
let's continually try to improveit and continually try to make

(05:51):
the best version with what we can.
Given even the production schedule is insane and short,
and the sort of the Herculean effort it takes to get some of
these sets built, especially seasons. 6-7 and eight.
We started to lean into this a little bit more of like a pseudo
anthology style where we're kindof doing more character focused
episodes. We're going to new locations all

(06:13):
the time. We're building new sets all the
time and they're that turnover is happening as we're prepping
that episode. So as we're shooting one episode
over the course of 10 days, they're prepping the next
episode. That's getting shot, which
means. They're finding these locations,
they're building these sets, they're building props, they're
casting that all in that 9:50 working day period.
So the fact that they can pull it off is sometimes kind of just

(06:35):
a miracle into into and of itself.
No small parts and all that. Yeah, no.
So the editor, we're really being conscientious of that too.
It's just like how however we can elevate what we get.
And what they were able to pull off in the time that they were
given, It's a kind of an interesting mix of storytelling
and creative problem solving andbeing this kind of resident

(06:57):
interpreter, digesting all thesedifferent styles and all these
different choices that differentdirectors are making and trying
to translate that to the Fear ofThe Walking Dead language, I
guess. It really seems like Phil that
this show in particular gives. So many opportunities to the
people who work on the crew and and the cast with you being able

(07:18):
to go from assistant editor to editor to director and I believe
other cast members as well. So can you speak to that a
little? That seems like that's such a
welcoming environment to be in. It is part of that, like I'm
saying as you know, as an editor, being encouraged to
offer your creative input and insight.
And I think that extends to the cast and to the other crew

(07:40):
members who are all sort of storytellers in their own right
and all film makers in their ownright.
And when they have that kind of inclination that they want to
take on that challenge of directing an episode, there is a
process in place in sort of securing that opportunity.
And that involves shadowing Mikey on an episode.
And you really get to be a family on the wall through the

(08:00):
whole process, some of the cast and some of the onset crew that
have gotten a director, obviously part of that.
Machine every day. So then they know a little bit
more kind of what's going into that.
But it always, you know, comes down to really learning the prep
process and how much of the episode is really made ahead of
time, which is usually the like the unique experience.
Everybody's encouraged to bring themselves in their everyday

(08:23):
role on the show. And then I think the more you
prove yourself there, that opportunity presents itself.
And it started early, I mean, with Coleman directing early on.
And I got to edit a couple episodes for Lenny.
And even for them, it was kind of this unique challenge and
unique experience that everybodywants to do it again after they
get to get on the other side of it, feel like there's a phrase,
but it's like you, you forget the trauma kind of scars over

(08:44):
the experience and then you're like, I forgot how hard that
was. Let's do it again.
It's like kept having, like a, you know, having subsequent
children, yeah. Like why?
Why? But more, yeah.
So as an editor, when you're editing for different directors,
do you have different approachesor do you kind of approach them

(09:05):
all the same? Generally the same.
I mean the people that I get really familiar with.
Who either if it's Mikey or Heather Capiello, is one that
we've had come back and I've worked with her a ton.
We have a great relationship andshe's super collaborative and I
recognized that we had a good dynamic early.
And so even in subsequent episodes, I think our process
starts earlier and earlier even ahead of production, where we'll

(09:29):
talk through the script a littlebit and talk through some of the
sequences that she's planning and.
If I can think of anything that maybe she should shoot that
maybe she's not considering, that really kind of helped me
prepare for directing too, because I got to have those
conversations with the director ahead of time.
Usually we're just getting things and we're just figuring
out like, OK, well, we didn't get this piece to the story.

(09:49):
Like how are we going to tell itin that circumstance?
But otherwise, in general, we'regetting the footage the next
morning from the previous shoot day, and the assistant editors
are organizing it into scene bins and and grouping clips for
multiple cameras. And then we're just reviewing.
Footage, we kind of know the script really well at that
point. We're looking at script notes
from the script supervisor and that's one way that the director

(10:10):
is communicating with us, whether they circled certain
takes that they liked or left ussome notes in the script or we
can see what lines got admitted or changed on set.
But really just just watching asmuch as you can and kind of
really knowing the scene. And we've sat in a few prep
meetings and tone meetings and we kind of know what the
intentions are with the scenes and and whether going for.

(10:31):
And yeah, and then just startingto sort of construct it.
And it's really more like sculpting than anything.
You know, getting a first version of a scene really helps
you kind of identify what you want to do and what you want to
change. It's like writing.
Like it's good to have the bad version just out there.
So you can start to kind of see it take shape and know what you
want to do, how you want to address it.
Whittle that down, basically. Yeah.
So we're doing that the whole time they're shooting.

(10:52):
So they're shooting for 10 days.We're trying to stay as.
Close to production as possible,especially if we notice
something that maybe they can pick up later and then we get an
additional three to four days after they've wrapped before we
put out our editor's cut. And that's when we're doing a
lot of refining and sort of stringing the scenes together
and building those transitions and doing temp sound design and

(11:12):
temp score. We have the whole score library
for the whole run of the show. And so we're.
Kind of informing at least this road map of where we see music
going and how we want the sound design to be.
Especially when we're doing someof these different episodes
where they're a little bit more impressionistic or we're trying
stuff out and experimenting or we're doing some temp visual
effects to try to sell an idea. That part of the process all is

(11:35):
very similar as just trying to get the best out of it that you
you can really and then you can usually foresee like where the
some of the. You know, OK, this is going to
be the sequence that we spend most of the time working on.
Because it has to have the impact.
Yeah, and even even if it's justbecause we got the most options
for a huge sequence. So it's like, OK, well this is
so subjective that it could go any number of ways.

(11:57):
You know, you can't successfullyread minds all the time.
Right. So you get to have that, like
creative input and have a littlefun with that too.
And then obviously, sometimes itcomes back.
Oh yeah. I mean, I think.
I think what I learned and what I think even prepared me for
directing. As far as editing goes, it's
like you get this editor's cut out and then you know that
somebody's going to come in and they're going to change things.
And and it's not like a personalattack to get like, I think

(12:20):
early on when you're new to editing and you put so much of
effort into getting a cut out. And then somebody comes in and
gives you a list of all things that are wrong with it.
And he's sort of like, oh, like,you know, like, you know, screw
you like this is, you know? Like, but then you learn, OK,
they're just going to tell me what they want me to do and I'll
either agree or not agree with it.
And if I don't agree with it, then you can sort of figure out

(12:40):
OK, well. Well, why are they giving that
note? Is there another?
Is there a third option that I can think of that sort of
satisfies what they're trying todo, but I think is maybe a
better way to do it? Or maybe they are right and
maybe I overlooked something or I missed a performance or they
remember something from set and I wasn't there.
So they are like, OK, well that this they did this thing and
this one take we have to find because that's what I want to

(13:03):
build the scene around. But it's all kind of part of the
fun and then I like to just think about it.
So just going to get better fromthere in an ideal world, which I
I often feel like it. It does on the show.
We're just refining and and you know cutting time too because
sometimes we'll have an early cut and it might be 50 minutes,
55 minutes over an hour. We've had that before and we
have to get it down at least in the 40 to 45 minute range to

(13:27):
sort of satisfy. AMC.
AMC, so. Commercials.
How long does it usually take you to edit an episode?
From shoot day one to an editor's cuts probably about 14
days and then we work with the director for four days after
that. Then we work with Ian and Andrew
for another four days to a week before it goes to AMC.

(13:50):
I'm not doing this math as I'm saying it out loud, so I thought
that. That's a month and change.
Yeah. And then and then you know we'll
do one or two passes with AMC depending on their feedback and
the the questions that they. Have for the episode, and then
in some cases it requires us to shoot pickups or we don't.
Often not reshoots, but it's usually just trying to find like
a couple shots that maybe would help a particular story beat or

(14:12):
something like that that we needto try to grab.
And they'll do that if and when they can, on set with subsequent
episodes. You're in the editors chair, but
now you're in the directors chair, because I know that the
grass is greener, right? You can always criticize a
director for not going a certaindirection, and they can always
criticize you, criticize you fornot cutting it the way they want
it, let's say. I know that doesn't happen, but
let's just use that extremely. Example.

(14:32):
But were there some things that you weren't prepared for as a
director? I mean, I know you're a
filmmaker also. I mean, we're going to talk
about Toadboy, obviously, but were there some things, at least
in the realm of network television, let's say, or cable
television, that you weren't prepared for as a director?
I think that you try to prepare for it, but really just how
quickly you're losing time on set immediately when you start

(14:56):
the day, you're already behind, and it's really incredible the
speed with which. This crew operates and the
things that they were doing and and obviously within these
episodes where we have dozens ofbackground actors and heavy
makeup and costuming and just turning a room to shoot in the
opposite direction. It could be half an hour to an
hour just because you want to shoot and shoot the other way.

(15:17):
And so if you didn't get what you wanted to get from that one
side, like, you're probably not going to get it at that point.
Everybody tells you like, you'rejust going to have to start kind
of marking stuff off your shot list and figuring out, OK, what
it what are the essential piecesthat I need?
And you're like, OK, well, we can.
This doesn't seem like it's thatmuch.
Like, I feel like we're going tobe able to get it all.
And then two hours in, you're like looking at the end of the
day and you're like, well, what are we going to lose later?

(15:38):
Because it's no way this is going to happen.
And then specifically with my episode Sanctuary, with the sort
of collapse sequence and the like, the the building sort of
deteriorating initially scheduled for just like half a
day. Of shooting because it was not
that long. In the script, there's like an
anecdote where there was a script or just like Paris Falls.

(16:00):
I forget the name. You know, it's a kind of
apocryphal story. But it's like, here's half a
page sort of describing, OK, like the sanctuary is going to
start collapsing and they're going to have to hide in the in
the furnace. So you're like, OK, well, we
need to build out the story and thinks through the sequence of
visually, what are these beats going to be?
And then so like, oh, we want todrop a giant metal box from the
ceiling and we want to knock poles over and we want to have

(16:21):
the furnace falling apart and wewant to do all these things and
still. We'll have some great Walker
moments and still have this character interactions and tell
the story of our baddie for the episode and Marty coming around
and shoot that all in five hours.
It's like, well, that's probably, I mean that one going
into that day, I was like, there's no way that's happening.

(16:42):
And we had sort of strategicallyscheduled some pieces for the
back end of the day that I knew as an editor.
If we didn't get them, those areprobably some of the first
things that are cut for time. Like these little sort of
transitional pieces or like Dwight lurking in the sanctuary
up top, getting him through somecorridors and stuff like that
where it's like it's a whole nother set up and a whole nother

(17:02):
location within this facility that we're shooting in.
If I can condense that backside.And then also I mean you're
still, you're pitching the riders on it, you're pitching in
Andrew on it like, OK, I I thinkthat this is going to be worth
getting all of the stuff that we're getting for this.
And if we don't get these couplepieces, I feel like we've still
got the sequence or we still got.

(17:23):
Enough to introduce us to the location.
Again, having to sort of Kill Your Darlings right up top and
then just strategizing for that like the chess of the job.
I mean that was the biggest obstacle.
And even just communicating withall the different departments
and and being able to anticipatequestions ahead of time, that
was a unique experience. Because, you know, when I'm
editing, I have a really great assistant editor, Kaylee

(17:46):
Hoffman, who ended up getting elevated to edit and the back
half she cut. Episode before that, SJ Munoz
did and she cut an upcoming episode, but she's the main
person that I'm talking to on a day-to-day basis and then
eventually one-on-one of the director and then eventually
sort of one-on-one with Ian or Andrew.
And I'm not fielding questions from every department and sort

(18:07):
of playing traffic cop to hundreds of people on a set and
being the sort of arbiter of ourchoices and what direction we're
going and what we're doing. So that was also just sort of
the biggest learning curve is OKlike.
These are the questions that these people are are going to
ask of me. If I can think those through
ahead of time and even answer them before they're even asked
or give them this kind of information that they need so

(18:29):
they can go off and do their job, that's going to save time.
And then in turn I'm going to get to shoot more of what I want
to shoot. So it's really getting kind of
thrown into the deep end in thatway.
What was your favorite episode to edit?
That's a really tough one to say.
I'll give her an answer, and I know why, because.
It was the first episode that I edited for Michael Satrazemas,

(18:51):
and it was kind of really the first time that I felt like I
locked into the style that they were aiming for in season four.
And I know it's a particular favorite of your yours.
So it's Four O 5 still stands out to me as one of my favorite
episodes. What we sort of did with Four O
5 and then when we did with FiveO 5 with Al and sort of our

(19:15):
cliffhanger episode. And these really character
focused ones, I think the success of those episodes is
what sort of spurred the shift over time because those episodes
were as well received as they were and we got to really kind
of tell a character arc in like a mini movie sort of vibe. 615
stands out to me. That's where Teddy.
That's where they launched them at the end before like the USS

(19:36):
Pennsylvania. That was a really fun one to
work on and to cut. That was one I did with Heather
season seven. I had cut mostly Tetrazemas
episodes somehow. And I did what I think
effectively might have been the first two of season seven, like
the Will Strand episode and thenthe Grace episode follow up.
They aired in order that they were not shot in order.

(19:59):
But both of those were a ton of fun to.
To work on just because it was, the material was so different
than anything we'd seen on the show, yeah.
Your daughter was the voice of the baby Walker in 702, right?
Yeah, That baby in the suitcase was my RSV infant.
Well, she both. She would mimic If I made Walker

(20:21):
sounds at her, she would mimic me and make them back.
So I recorded that. And then she did have RSV and
her breathing was just kind of that.
And so I just recorded that and then it ended up staying in.
So it'll be a fun thing to show her when she's a little bit
older. This is you literally.

(20:42):
But she wasn't actually in the bag, right?
That's actually no, no. Yeah, no, I was talking to
Lenny. I was like, hey, you want to see
a picture of the baby that was in the suitcase?
He's like, no, please never don't show me.
I don't want. I don't want to know what you
know. He was already not his favorite
thing to do, I think. But he's just killing a baby

(21:04):
Walker. That's our favorite kind.
Pass. So to get like a little more
episode specific to to SanctuaryPhil, you kind of had to tap
into like a lot of pre-existing drama and content from the
flagship show, even like not even from this series.

(21:26):
So how did you get into that mindset to be able to really
help direct, to tap into those emotions?
I really benefited it maybe havebeen by design.
If I had to guess, I had edited episodes 2:00 and 6:00 when we
first met June in season 8, and Dwight and Cherry enter into
that episode and then in six with passing of Finch and and

(21:49):
their separation. So I felt pretty intimately
familiar at least with where they've been recently coming
into this episode. It was a lot of kind of
refreshing myself on some of TheWalking Dead material.
And we have a great team on the show of of producers and and
producers assistants including Brittany Patterson who really

(22:11):
curated a list of kind of like essential episodes to watch to
really dive in to Dwight's storyin the sanctuary.
And and there is relationship tothe facility and the savers and
Negan and and Sherry as well. And that was distributed to the
entire team of department heads so that everybody could be re
familiarize themselves with it. We have a lot of crew that came

(22:33):
over from The Walking Dead, especially when we shifted to
Savannah for shooting. And and so there were people
that had knew every inch of the sanctuary and every inch of
Dwight's room and knew what needed to be.
There's a lot of the props like the set deck.
Some of those things were actually stored in a warehouse
and they brought them in or you know, were trucked in even the

(22:54):
windows in the main room where the original that glass that
they had there and and so every single person on the crew and
all the department heads were keyed in on it.
The writing on the wall had beenthere for this episode early on.
So they, I think, have been doing a lot of the groundwork of
where are we gonna be able to pull this off?
Where are we gonna shoot this? We need to be able to have a

(23:16):
space where we can put this footprint in because it's such
a, you know, a huge space. So they had been thinking about
that a lot ahead of time and then coming in, it was just a
Walking Dead marathon to make sure that I was both just really
confident in going back in therebecause it felt like it's, you
know, it's this huge task. And then there are certainly
fans who feel a certain level ofownership over the show and an

(23:37):
intimate knowledge of it that more than eclipses, I'm sure
mine. So it's.
Making sure I'm doing a service.I'm doing a service to them.
I don't wanna overlook things. I don't wanna If there's other
opportunities that we don't haveto be referential to The Walking
Dead or to our own show, where, How can we make this as rich as
possible and how can we find those things?
It's like, what are the essential things that we need to
see to sell Sanctuary, to trigger Dwight?

(24:00):
Trying to root it in character as much as possible?
Like what? You know we want, right?
We want everything to be meaningful to these characters
and give them things to play offof so that the actors can
immerse themselves in the moment.
I think you all did an excellentjob.
This was, this was a great episode.
I just want to say that the opening shot of Dwight reflected
in the puddle. I don't even remember like the
next 20 minutes because all I could think about was how

(24:21):
awesome that shot was. She couldn't wait.
Oh my God, I haven't seen the Great well that makes me so
happy. I don't think that I it's like
break anything but there. I mean, this original script was
longer and there we saw a littlebit more of his journey, but the
whole point of it is just to kind of align you with him and
get you feeling where Dwight is and to really settle into that

(24:45):
and and sell the time. And I think Austin does such an
amazing job conveying that and the weight of that and and and
coming in so haggard and kind ofdisoriented that those were
things that we ended up losing even before we started shooting,
just because otherwise we would have had to shoot over the
course of 14 or 15 days when we only get 10, right.
So yeah, we wanted to find a really cool way to still get

(25:07):
into the episode and to sort of ease where we were with being
back at their house. And that was just a fun, dynamic
way to get into that and even get to play with some cool toys.
Like the lightning lighting setup that they use for that is
massive. And it sits high above the trees
and they have different stationsand it's all triggered by like a
remote system and it flashes allaround.

(25:30):
So getting to experiment with that and just hanging out, and
that might have been one of the last things that we shot at
night on a night shoot when we were there.
Not the last day, but it was like felt like the last setup of
the night. I think it was just fun to go
off on that. Note.
Because you mentioned how much went into this episode from set
pieces that were brought in and people that had to backlog all

(25:50):
this information that may or maynot be brushed up on that era of
The Walking Dead. Did you have a little bit more
time to, well, A prep but B filmas well?
Or was there a lot more prep that needed to go into this
episode than normal. I think there was and a lot of
that was sort of figuring out locations and and are we going
to be able to find this house. We weren't traveling to the

(26:12):
Atlanta surrounding area to shoot any of the previously used
locations so like their house for example and the interior of
that have been a set I believe anyway but I could be mistaken.
But I but the exterior of the house we had to sort of find a
house in rural surrounding Savannah that was close enough
that we could really recreate that as a a miracle that
locations found the house that we found and that we were able

(26:34):
to to really I think do that andpull that off.
I think the benefit of knowing Ian and Andrew really well and
working with them is that I alsogot an earlier draft of the
script than I think sometimes the directors get just because
I'm talking to them all the timeanyway.
And I told them that that was going to be to their detriment
because then when we started official prep because there's
not really time or mental real estate to initiate any kind of

(26:58):
real conversations with them while they're still in prep on
other episodes and while they'rein production and other
episodes. This is a very tight schedule.
And this is like when they can talk to you about the stuff
that's going on this episode, but having the script even just
a hair early and getting to justsort of comb through it and go
over and over it. I came to them and I'm like, all
right, well, you gave it to me early.

(27:18):
So now get ready for the longesttone meeting of your your lives
or like let's can we let's like have a pre tone where we can
talk through stuff. Because I thought through as
much as I could think through ahead of time and pitched some
things and thinking ahead like Isaid we're where are we going to
have to lose things or if we have to sacrifice something for
time for production schedule. I want to sacrifice these things

(27:41):
ahead of these things because I want to make sure we keep all
this really cool shit and all these set piece action sequences
and and moments. And then when we were shooting
it, I was like, damn, why did I make them keep all these insane
action sequences and stuff, momentum and stuff?
Because it's like, how am I supposed to pull off like this
fence sequence and when Dwight has the axe and Sherry has the
gun and they're sort of back-to-back, Some sort of, like

(28:02):
couples therapy exercise that they're going through and then
still get the time to let these actors get into the moment and
these like, really heavily emotional scenes and sequences
and let them find it. Right like I got to do.
That too have a lot of influence, I feel like, over
what we did shoot and and kind of recontextualize it ahead of

(28:25):
time, which are all things that I feel like I'm doing in post
anyway, but getting to do it ahead of time now.
But then I really, yeah, there were times where I was like, God
damn it, Philly, like you had like you kept all this insane
shit and now you have to like figure out how you're going to
get it all done. But we we did, and I can't think
of anything that we didn't get to shoot that I'm like even
still kicking myself about. Yeah, and a lot of the stuff

(28:46):
that you were talking about withDwight and getting to feel the
weight of his sadness. Essentially, what I liked about
the episode the most, and I'm sure we're going to talk about
it more tonight to tomorrow night, is that apparently you
lost some of that in the process.
But what I liked about this episode is that that weight gets
passed. Each character as we go
crescendoing with Jayla Walton'sperformance as Dove slash

(29:09):
Odessa, which is like, OK, you're sad.
You're sad, you're sad you don'tthink you can do it.
So how am I supposed to? And so there's this really cool
build that I think, I mean I I would credit to you obviously
for pulling that out of the the actors.
It's kind of staying out of the way for the most part or or
being really cruel and like, hey, please, I know that you
just like kind of lost yourself in that moment and it was super

(29:32):
heartbreaking and traumatic to live those emotions.
Let's do it again four more times and we're going to push in
and but they're also so graciousand so game and they were very
receptive. I don't know often in my day job
and not communicating directly with the actors.
But a lot of what the editor is doing is just trying to make the

(29:54):
actors look as good as possible and really find truthful, honest
performances. And I mean, I'm staring at their
faces and their eyes and these idiosyncratic twitches and and
all this stuff and so conscientious of it.
And all I want is trying to makeit as honest and real as I can.
And so how do I convey that to them without coming off as like

(30:14):
a creep or like you know like a weird like it's like I'm I'm
staring at your face every day. I wanted I want the best for
you. You're.
Literally saying what I think every single day as I these
episodes like not coming off as a creep for cutting this out or
cutting that out or can you say unless that sort of thing, it's
just a constant thing that goes in like oh, if you just didn't

(30:35):
blink in that moment, it'd be great, but if you know.
I feel like Dave and Phil could just like have a whole.
Thing to themselves like Bridget, you and I can just go
get a drink or something and they can just.
Dish about them. You can tell me all of Austin's
secrets. Like he keeps doing this thing,
and I just wish he wouldn't knowwe had these preliminary
conversations. And then in the moment, it's

(30:57):
you're kind of making adjustments and really letting
them kind of get into it. And especially, I mean, Jayla
completely floored me and I feltlike in the in the scene with
her and Jenna, I sort of knew from reading it, I knew that was
going to be great and I I knew Jenna was going to bring it.
But then it was in the moment. I was like, oh man, we got like
this kind of boxing match, like they're each going toe to toe in

(31:21):
the most gut wrenching, heartfelt, depressing way.
We hadn't seen that from Jayla to that extent yet in her
character, but she had such an amazing reputation and she was
so game and she was so excited to get shot and to to have this
episode and to to get featured in this way.
So I just was floored because ifwe hadn't gotten to see her do

(31:43):
that yet and exercise those muscles in that way.
And I also really loved the character's perspective in all
this because I think she's kind of this audience surrogate to
some extent, where you're like get over your trauma, you you're
like the boomer ants. Like she's like, Oh my God, I
wanted to like, you know, she's like thinking he's like these
boomers or whatever. But it's like, you know, it's,

(32:04):
it's but it's it's all from an honest place.
Because like if any of these things actually happen to any of
these characters, like, of course they're going to be hung
up on and of course they're going to be emotionally scarred
from it. And it is insanely difficult to
get over some of the things thatthey've gotten over and and
especially in recent history on the show where Dwight and Cherry
lost their child, that's never going to go away, as evidenced

(32:24):
by by June's character, and it'sthis sort of through line with
her where she feels increasinglyresponsible for subsequent
losses. And of course, if you're these
characters, from their perspective, they're living it
and this weight and this trauma is living with them.
But if you are this kind of younger, sheltered not by your

(32:45):
own choice, teenager who grew upin Padre in this environment and
like you don't have a worldly perspective.
And all you see is these adults who are supposed to take care of
you, who are just so hung up on their own shit and you don't
recognize them as as people and as individuals.
Of course you're going to be like like, I don't give a shit
about what you're bitching about.
You take the fucking bullet out of my side if I can.

(33:05):
Swearing. I don't know.
I don't know how much that's where, but.
Just like it's all like it was to.
Me, that was like to our show. I have, but I don't.
I don't. I.
Don't try to clean that up. I swear casually sometimes so I
don't ever notice it if other people are swearing.
Yeah, editors do that. It's strange, but yeah, so that
idea of both being like from a real place where that character

(33:25):
we're coming from, but also kindof giving like an outside
perspective or this sort of omnipresent audience perspective
of like, yeah, I'm sure people have probably yelled at their
television for any number of ourcharacters to get over something
at any given point in. Time but.
I felt like Wes was kind of likethat character at at certain
points that kind of like, what are you guys?

(33:46):
What are you doing So occasionally perspective coming
into this core group and it's. Just like all this.
Yeah. Even when we were shooting, I
think with Jack, who played Jay early on in the episode, and
they're huddled behind that burnt out car and looking up and
how he's playing Austin, it's like, well, we didn't call it
the factory. What did you call it?

(34:07):
Sanctuary. And then I think, I don't know
how much it's really living in there, but Jay gives us kind of
like, that's a weird thing to call a place like kind of like,
you know, breaking. Seems like the opposite, yeah?
It's like, I don't know. It's like what?
I don't know what you've been upto with whoever you've been
hanging out with, but like, you guys got weird code names for
shit that I don't understand. It's like, I just need some
influence, man. Like please.

(34:27):
Help me. It's appropriate.
But I think that's what's fun about the show is when you can
kind of bring in those new perspectives and get to kind of
color this recurring cast in a new light.
Yeah, absolutely. I've.
I've said that before, too. When we see moments like this or
characters like these that can actually shift the frame.
Of the show in just their uniqueway, it gets the audience to
also do the same for a little while, because they're keyed in

(34:50):
as much as possible to their emotions.
And so when you get a character like that, pay attention because
that's another perspective of another audience member, let's
say, even too. They're beautiful in that way.
Little snowflakes. I just wanted to say last
Christmas we had a charity driveand we asked Phil to donate.
And he did. And I bid on it.
And then, Phil, I bid on it for your prize.

(35:11):
And now I feel even worse. No, no, no.
This is how can you? This is amazing.
So this is the box. And he had Jayla, Jenna, Austin
and Christine sign it, and he signed it as well.
This was the prize from the charity Christmas drive.
I just want to thank you Phil. This is awesome.
I owe you an actual beer still. This this is this.

(35:33):
Is plenty. Thank you, I tried to make up
for it. And now that we now we know why
that is so significant because when did you get that signed?
Was it around that time I got itsigned while we were shooting
the episode? But now that it's like as long
ago as that was and it just tookme forever to to get it.
Oh, I just figured you were waiting until you got closer to
the episode. So it wouldn't be like, yeah,

(35:53):
that was it a spoiler or something?
You, Phil, you had said to me itwould be worth it and.
The chickens came home to roost,so I appreciate it very much.
Thank you. And thank you for donating to
the drive. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
I recently had moved like a cross country and embraced sort
of the remote workflow that the pandemic had brought on and just

(36:16):
been living in chaos for howeverlong.
So like, I'm glad that you wanted and that you appreciate
it and especially Jenna didn't hesitate.
And then I think she probably even addressed it directly to
you. To you she was like, she was
like, Oh my God, of course your guys reputation precedes you.
I think when the show community and the people, I mean like

(36:36):
that, you know I think respect your guys opinions a lot and
especially getting a couple of the messages that I got
immediately after the episode aired like it meant a lot
because I do know how much you care about the show and this
universe and how invested you are in it.
And so I think that you take thegood with the bad and and I
think that we do as well and we have high expectations for
ourselves on the show and we don't always necessarily hit our

(36:59):
expectations for it. And it could be any number of
things that caused it. I've come to start thinking
about any time that any television or film exists at
all. It's kind of a miracle that that
happened. I've been seeing that a lot
lately. So it's like, you know, to think
of it, there's so many departments and so many people.
And, you know, there are times where we get lightning strikes
within a certain radius and we have to shut production down

(37:20):
for, Oh yeah, hours because we can't film.
And then they're like, are they going to be able to make that
time up? Are they scrambling to figure
out, well, how are we going to tell this story with half a day
less of production? You have to worry about like the
light angles and because the daylight changes and all that
stuff, yeah. So it's it's it's a battle
constantly. But that Gall goes to say that
it's still on the pursuit of telling a good story and making

(37:43):
good show. And I think that knowing that
there is this group of devoted fans out there who are as
invested as you guys are means alot and it makes the job feel
that much more fun and that muchcooler.
And you guys are very appreciated even when you hold
us accountable and let us know. Yeah, even when.

(38:04):
You charity holds you accountable.
Phil, thank you guys for always all of the cast and the in the
crew that interact with us and respond to our messages.
And just like you're saying thatmeans a lot to you that we care
so much. It means a lot to us that you
guys take the time out of what is they we know is your busy
schedules. Even if it's just reply and say

(38:26):
thank you whatever that means a lot to me.
Like when I see what if you guyspop up in my feet, I'm like oh
awesome, was it. It never gets old and I want to
thank you guys for that too. That's part of the reason we are
so invested is because you guys invest in US also.
Yeah, it's a trend amongst you Fear The Walking Dead people.
True. It's true.
And it's appreciated too. I mean, it's a testament to the

(38:47):
show going as long as it did andalso why people don't leave when
they get there because there's long hours, It's stressful, time
intensive, especially pre pandemic.
I I'm not working from home, I'mnot home a lot and especially
people on set are away from families, away from kids.
It's a big commitment and I think to work with the crew that
we got to work with. Then you people don't want to

(39:08):
leave because it's one thing to work those hours and work under
those conditions. But if you work with assholes or
you work with people who aren't considerate or you don't, you
don't have that level of care for and you don't want to go to
to battle for someone's like, why are you doing this job at
all? It's like if you're going to
make the sacrifices that people make to work in the industry and
and do that you want to be with people that you care about and

(39:30):
that care about you back. I've always felt that on the
show and whether production or through our post department so
many people are still there fromthat have been there since the
very beginning. One of our other editors, Aaron
Saint Pierre started season one with me as the post production
assistant and I brought her in season three to be my assistant
editor just because I knew how great she was and and now she is

(39:52):
one of the remaining editors on the show.
As we wrap up that there's people like that you build these
relationship with that are they're like family to you.
I understand if you can't answerthis, and I'm only half joking
when I say this to you, but now that the show is over, are you
going to move on to one of the other Walking Dead shows?
I don't know. Who knows with the strikes and
and all of that. I'm not working right now.

(40:13):
I'm available. I don't think AMC wants to have
any less Walking Dead on. They seem to strategically fill
their calendar year with different Walking Dead
properties. So I wouldn't turn down anything
to come back and I did do tales for the first season.
Oh, did you? Do all the We already enjoyed
that I edited the episode with Jesse Devon.

(40:34):
Devon, My favorite episode, actually, Dave, I did Devon and
I did the alpha episode as well on that edited when we were in
offices when that was more of a thing.
We were all in the same offices and you know world beyond
upstairs and walking deads down the hall and we're interacting
with everybody all the time. So I became awesome, great
friends with everybody on all the other shows and still talk

(40:54):
to some of the editors on Darryland Oh yeah, so we're all close,
and once you're in that universe, let's get really
invested in it. It can't quit the family.
Yeah. What I wanted to ask you in
closing, are there any lessons that you learned along the way
in your journey as an editor also, but as a director as well?
Something that just sticks with you, that the audience should
know about. The most.
Fruitful creative experiences and collaborative experiences

(41:18):
are always kind of when you leadwith gratitude for the people
who you're working with. Something that Michael
Satrazemas does above all else is he really empowers everyone
around him. He holds them accountable and it
has a high expectations of them,but he also believes in them and
they know he believes in them. That was really as sort of a
mentor to me. Something that I carried through

(41:39):
and wanted to make sure that I was expressing that gratitude to
all of these people at all levels for their contributions
to it. And knowing that you can't do
everything yourself. And it's only going to be better
for embracing the creativity andthe the storytelling abilities
of everyone around you. Whether they're set deck or
props or visual effects artists or the actors or stunts.

(42:01):
They're incredible teams all around and they all are
processing the story in the sameway and then really directing
your kind of filtering all that through and trying to make it
cohesive. But you're getting so many great
options from all around you embracing that and I think even
to editing as well, Just trying to make sure when you're working
with the directors or when you're working with the
producers and just keeping that positive energy, don't get

(42:23):
bogged down. And like you can't figure out a
problem. It's like, well, there's like
there's going to be a solution. So like let's focus on that.
We know we can get it to something good, just figure out
how to get there, which is more of a broad life approach that
really kind of helped inform youbecause you can get kind of in
the weeds or worn out or burnt out doing this job.
So I think having that perspective on things can be

(42:43):
this sort of guiding beacon on top of a tower in a post, a
bucket of waste land of. Texas working in you know TV and
film. So but yeah so that's really
been the biggest thing and even when I've done alumni talks for
my school or career stuff and most of what I just tell people
is just don't be a Dick. And if you're just.
Not, yeah. But if you're not an asshole,

(43:05):
you can ask questions and peoplewill answer them because you're
not an asshole and they'll want to work with you again, because
the hours are long and hey, thatguy wasn't hard to work with, so
I'd like to keep him around. The biggest thing I think is,
you know, just trying to be a good person and being honest and
accessible. And that's really, I think
benefited me more. I mean, not that I'm a perfect
person, but I I think that I've at least duped enough people

(43:27):
into thinking that I'm not a prick.
That I've I've. Made a career out.
Me too. No.
But it's it's like it's so it's it's nourishing gratitude.
It's it's constantly feeding this this gratitude that you're
getting in return to. Yeah I've always felt very
appreciated on the show and veryintegral in a great way.
However, you can reciprocate that and pass that on whether

(43:49):
it's even to your assistant editor and then trying to
empower them and help them grow and move up and I mentioned
Aaron but Kaylee as well. So but I ended the season ended,
season 8 ended and it was me andtwo of my former assistants were
the other two editors on the show.
Which for me personally felt great because it was these two
people that I had helped mentor and helped bring up and brought

(44:09):
in And to see them evolve in that way and and take on those
challenges and do kick ass jobs at it.
Watching the episode before SJS episode, I think Kaylee did such
a phenomenal job. But that episode I was so proud
to see what she pulled off from that.
And then you see it's fun because then you get jealous
like man, I wish I would have, like I would have cut that
episode. I would have gotten to cut that

(44:30):
sequence. And it makes you hungry too.
The tease to next week's I'll say that James Armstrong, who's
one of our stunt coordinators, director of the next episode.
And out and he is such a amazingly talented awesome guy.
I got to Co edit the episode with Mike Miller who was one of
our assistants. I came back from shooting and we
we had to shuffle schedules. So I got immediately started Co

(44:52):
editing on this episode and I got to cut one of my favorite
sequences that I've ever cut on the show in the upcoming
episode. Wow.
So wow. This is crazy.
So you guys can guess. I would never do watch them, but
but it's nice, it's good. I really love the next episode.
You might be receiving messages.In advance, but I think the only

(45:13):
thing I want to ask in the in the Fear of The Walking Dead
realm is mainly getting into more how you feel as an audience
member, but with your unique experience or perspective.
What do you want to tell the audience, whatever way the wind
blows with them? What do you want them to get out
of Fear of The Walking Dead, from your perspective?
Oh, that's a great question. Finding these qualities in some
of these characters that you canrelate to and identify with and

(45:38):
feel. I mean the intent obviously I've
always felt with the show is just to put these people into
such an extreme circumstance andto see how they react to it and
how that affects their relationships and how that
affects interactions and their their sort of worldview.
But I think in watching it just to to find that relatability to

(45:58):
some extent, whether it's one ofthem or or multiple of them and
just latch onto it in that way, which I think that, I mean I
feel like you guys have obviously done hope feels like
too sort of vague and kind of cheesy, but just identifying
qualities in these characters that are either aspirational for
an audience member or that you do see in yourself or you you
are more wishful in thinking about.

(46:19):
They're so vulnerable and so accessible so much of the time
in an apocalyptic setting. But that's the hope.
It's just like you get drawn into it and you're engaged with
it and then you kind of feel like you're at least along for
the ride, whether you've chosen kind of your your surrogate
horse, as it might be. The goal for me is just to be as
kind of compelling and and get the audience to invest as much

(46:39):
as possible. And that's what I'm doing with
every edit choice that I'm making and trying to really
remain invisible, if that makes sense.
And I know people say editing editors are invisible, artists
are invisible at times. I don't want anybody thinking
about my editing. I'm doing what I can to like
pull people into the story, pullpeople into the characters I'm
choosing when I'm cutting in andout of shots.

(47:01):
Based on that, how do I want to direct your eye line or what
kind of information am I trying to disseminate to you at this
particular time or whether you're foreshadowing or just
giving a new piece of the puzzleor right.
Hopefully we're, you know, we'retelling compelling stories and
you are invested and you are identifying with these
characters. And if we're doing that, then I
feel like we're succeeding. Even if you are invested enough

(47:22):
to to dislike it and to have that opinion on it, maybe we
want you to hate it. You know, I did make that remark
recently, actually. I swear there's a couple of
things this season like they heard me.
A year. Like a year in the future.
They heard me. They heard me.
Let's talk about Toy Boy a little, at least.
And one of the things that I want you to convey is.

(47:46):
The elevator pitch for this short film, because having
watched it, it's actually kind of hard to just there's some
easy things you can describe. How would you describe that to
to an audience? What draws them in?
I've had a hard time trying to really get like a log line down.
I've sort of settled on it's it's, you know, these two

(48:06):
misguided siblings that are kindof showcasing the lengths that
they we'll go for one another. Or in the case of this short,
the older sister for her youngerbrother.
And like the lengths that she's willing to go for him in the
wake of some issues at school with bullies and things.
And he's absent, and the principal's concerned, and he's
reaching out to the older sibling, figuring out how can I

(48:28):
intervene, How can I help? And the help that he ends up
providing just requires a very significant sacrifice that he is
maybe unaware of in the moment. But.
But he wouldn't normally be willing to make.
Yeah, But it really I think is about for me, the principle in
the short is sort of maybe more of the protagonist and and

(48:48):
that's a little bit kind of likeburied in it at 1st.
And it's just about how terrifying kids are.
And I think, you know, as a parent and a parent of I have a
nine year old, a six year old and a three-year old.
They've tried to perform ritualistic occult surgery on me
many times. But they it's really just

(49:09):
feeling like wanting to be therefor them and wanting to help
them and kind of have answers for everything that they need
and knowing that that's not possible.
But also there's a like a helplessness in parenting that
is sort of inherent to that rolewhere you can only do so much
and be so prepared and you're always going to be on your toes

(49:30):
and your things are always goingto be changing.
So kind of translating that to ashort film where it's our
principal character who's getting in way over his head and
going off the rails very quicklyand it's hard.
I think that's what it's about. And then I also just wanted to
do some cool practical makeup effects and and find an excuse
to to do that is awesome. I shot that after I moved back

(49:52):
to the Midwest and I met Dennis Preston who did our makeup
effects as I go. I can probably, I think I can
actually pull off something withthis kind of half human half
toed Cronenberg monster thing that I've had in my brain for a
while. But even just the vibe and the
tone of the mid. I grew up here OK and I'd lived
in LA for 13 years and and I'm back now with our kids and

(50:14):
there's just kind of this dissonance to the Midwest of
eras. It's like a clash of mid
century, late mid century housesand new construction.
But there's like some strip malls that you know are relics
of the late 90s and then like a mile down the road they built
the new strip malls that were built five years ago.
And and so it's like this clash of aesthetics and times and eras

(50:38):
and and so it's it's not really a period piece, but I think I
try to lean into the like a nostalgic vibe with the tone and
and everything just so felt thatway.
It felt like it was a little bitout of time and out of place,
which is what I think living in the Midwest feels like.
It was actually one of my questions.
Does does Indiana somehow play into this, into this short film?

(50:59):
Yeah, I mean even, you know, like the the school we shot in
was built in I think the early to mid 80s and I don't think has
been touched since then. So it's like, you know, again
opening in that, it's like, well, where are we?
We're listening to Willie Nelson.
These lockers look like they're from another time.
I think until you see the principal pull out his cell
phone, there's no clear idea of what time it's in.

(51:22):
And then I think really, even beyond that, an exercise in how
I can end up somewhere completely unexpected from where
we start. The journey feels organic and
you end up there and it never felt like, oh shit, this A to B
or B to C or C to D felt like a weird leap.
But like when you get all the way to the end and you do think
back to the beginning, like how the fuck did it?

(51:42):
Like I I didn't feel that jump the whole like watching it, but
like how did I get here from where we started and feeling
unexpected in that way. In part I did the short I mean I
wanted to, you know do festivalswith it and I wanted to work
with the main actor who played the principal.
But it's all kind of part of that effort to get to direct on
fear is kind of proving that youknow you're not a moron and you

(52:02):
know where to point a camera andyou've done the other things
like I've shadowed and I've beenan editor on the show forever
and and so I have these votes ofconfidence, but I need to show
that I'm capable of doing something.
So then to go and make a short like Toadboy, is this the right
thing to be to be trying to get like work off of?
Like, is AMC going to watch Toadboy and be like, well, this

(52:23):
is exactly the person we want toput in charge of this massive
franchise for. It's our next series huge
episode. Fear The Walking Toadboy.
It felt like a kind of kind of this weird joke in a way, I
guess. But and I also like that too.
I mean, I think there is like a dark humor to it, enough of a
self-awareness to it. Hopefully that's conveyed that

(52:44):
we're in on it a little bit. The instrument.
Me out. That was what really got me when
I was watching. It was that it's a you don't
have these things, just like laying around your house.
I'm in school administration andso we have those in the
classrooms. This hit a little too close to
home for me. I feel like in that way.
I was curious. Are you?

(53:07):
I had Evil Dead franchise fan because this the Necronomicon
Necronomicon, but it's not, it'sthe Necromagica.
Necromagica, yeah. Right.
So as soon as I saw it, I was like, wait a second, that's.
That's the Necronicon. No, in a minute.
We just watched Army of Darknessthe other night.
Yeah, I definitely a big fan of the Evil Dead franchise.

(53:29):
And then also you have this likeobsessive non verbal kid who's
really keyed in on this interestand what happens if that kid
gets access to some sort of darkmagic and what is the evolution
of that look like and where the are those boundaries or sort of
a sense of right and wrong or morality.
And then for Charlene is sympathetic to her brother and

(53:49):
and trying to protect him and not make sure that he does
anything that's going to harm himself unless you know, they
know. That's a healthy level of
experimentation in the process, so.
Right, long term gain in the short term.
Right. Actually that sort of answers a
little bit one of my other questions, which is essentially
is there something that you wanted people to walk away with

(54:10):
with this short? And it sounds to me like you
want pretty much you know where the line of morality is, it
seems like. But is there anything else that
in that realm or that you want people to walk away with after
watching this short besides the flex on film craft which is top
notch. I I really enjoyed the choice of
shots too and. Just the way things flowed, like
you said organically it felt like this is where it's supposed

(54:32):
to go and yet here we are at theend of it.
I don't know if I have a precisegoal in that way other than
really wanting to try to tell sort of an unexpected story and
exercise some of those demons like this image of a human frog,
human toed creature and just I think still kind of play and

(54:53):
experiment with with some different characters that were
I'm, you know, I don't normally get to work with or see or like
the like working with the kids. And so it was really just kind
of scratching all those itches or like trying to like check all
those boxes where it's like OK, I mean I'm a huge horror genre
fan. I tend to like some of the older
movies or more methodical thingsand to do kind of a body horror

(55:15):
piece and wanting to sort of find something in that space but
still feel like we're taking some strange swings.
And how can I make that all feel, like I said, organic or
use what I've learned in my earsediting to effectively sell a
tone and and tell a story. Which is all by design, I think,
even in like that opening sequence with the fly stuff.

(55:36):
And it's like I can tell a wholestory just through sound design
and some really intentionally paced visuals and not have to
worry too much about whether or not I'm going to get some CG
flies and visual effects flies and all that kind of stuff.
So. I was wondering if you had like
a fly Wrangler or something on set.
We had, we had a bunch of fake plastic flies that we had around

(56:00):
and in case we were going to, you know, have them land on
anything, some of those shots ended up getting cut.
But then mostly that just gave them to the kids as like,
pardon, gifts they have. And then Tamir, who played Todd
Guy, gave him a shirt that said totally awesome on.
Like a? Like a like a was like a toad
surfing in space or something that's.
Cute. And then I gave him the

(56:22):
instrument as well, and he wanted to keep the mat.
He was so content to just kind of sit on set in his mask with
the instrument in like a corner and just kind of live the
character. So I felt like we found the
right kid for that. No, you find out later on that
that's his life. Now he just lives like that from
here on. He's never left the basement of
the house, Yeah. Yeah, he lives there now.

(56:43):
That's it. We we footed the bill for the
whole thing. Bullying, sort of.
It's like the entryway into you thinking, you know what this is
about, but did you want to hit on that in any significant way
at all, other than acknowledgingthat it is a thing that kids are
still dealing with, they're actively dealing with, or it
won't go away and kind of telling a little bit of what

(57:05):
maybe that revenge story looks like.
But I think even the bullies in this case, I don't know if like
the ends just you know, or like if if it's completely like
justice has been served, so to speak.
Question Mark. Yeah.
But the again that I mean that maybe caters more to towards the
the morality angle of it than the bullying story necessarily.

(57:28):
Yeah. I think it was just kind of an
interesting way to enter into the story of these kids and kind
of give enough context for theirperspective and for their state
of mind coming into it without having to do a lot of
exposition. I think it's very relatable to
to to kind of comment on that and that with a short

(57:49):
specifically, I mean there's like the economy of time that
you have to tell a story and youknow, wanting to cover as much
ground as we did. I mean moving through locations
and trying to still keep it downand tight.
It's like anytime you can maximize an element like that
and it's like, OK, well we we have something relatable and we
can get the audience hooked on that and then we don't have to,

(58:09):
you know, spend a bunch of time seeing a montage or flashback of
him getting bullied or somethinglike that.
I think it's like, OK, well we we can set this up and everybody
will know right away enough information to buy in.
There's sort of an irony to it too, because.
In a way, everybody knows what that's about.
It's normal quote, UN quote. And yet it shouldn't be.

(58:30):
I feel like in in a sense, because of the twist and because
of how it kind of gets turned onits head, you're kind of almost
conveying that that no, this isn't normal and here's
something else that's not normal.
See, I walked away with that. That's good to hear that.
We've gotten some feedback, reviews on letterboxed and stuff
and it's been interesting to seewhat different people key in on
or what the takeaways are. And then somebody did write one

(58:53):
that was pretty bullying focusedand like, you know, an
interesting take on on bullying as I go.
Putting it lightly I guess. So in terms of being able to see
it, are there any concrete ways that one can see it in in the
near future, places that it's going to play and hopefully
other venues? Where it might appear in the
future that you can maybe share with us, it was up through the

(59:15):
Film Quests virtual program thatbelieve they use.
Like the EO app it's a festival app where you can purchase and
watch. It may be down now that the
festival just ended and I don't know what the term was, but we
are going to be at a couple of upcoming festivals with a few
more that we haven't heard back from our aren't able to announce
just yet. This month we're going to be

(59:37):
abroad in Wales at Avatar, whichis a big international genre
festival, and the Soho Horror Festival in the UK.
And then in early December, we're going to be at the New
York City Horror Film Festival. I believe that's December 7th
through 10th or something like that.
And I think we screen on the 8th, hopefully a few more coming

(59:59):
up in the spring and then I willdefinitely get it out there once
the festival runs done and we'llkeep it, have it up.
Yeah. Now I'll let you know when it's
it's going to officially be up and I'm not great about updating
it, but there is a toadboyfilm.com.
I have some of the festival stuff up there and shorts.
Is the Instagram handle. Is the word shorts with the word

(01:00:22):
horror inserted into it. What I've been posting most of
the toadboy stuff and when we'vebeen nominated for awards we won
Best Short Script or Best Ridingfor a short at the Knoxville
Horror Film Festival. We played at Toronto After Dark
and Telly Ride Horror Show and afew other ones earlier in the
month that were really surprising to get into because
they're some of the bigger horror and genre film fests in

(01:00:44):
the country. And again, all like icing,
because I think getting to direct worked on the show was
the biggest reward from it. And then now it's like oh, and
now I get to have some, you know, fun playing in festivals
and meeting and other cool film makers and networking in that
way. It's been cool that it's had
like this life beyond just the initial intention and and to get
it out there and the people are responding to it.

(01:01:06):
I think that's what's been more surprising is that there are
more people that are as messed up as I am.
Yeah, my exact response was thatwas so fucked up.
I loved it. The teeth falling out of the
frog side of the mouth. So gross and so good.
Who knew you could just buy a set of teeth on Amazon for like

(01:01:28):
7 dollars? When you showed this from the
side and you could see the frog eyeball like all bulging out, I
was like, oh, that was gross. And we did do.
I think it's still up. So I help out with a lit
magazine and trade imprint. Dark Matter magazine is the name
of the magazine and it's all short genre fiction, dark sci-fi

(01:01:49):
and horror. And then we have Dark Matter
Ink, which is a trade imprint where we released novellas,
novels, anthologies, stuff like that.
And we did a artist feature on the makeup effects artist who
did Toadboy and featured a lot of the process of making the
prosthetics in Toadboy. So it's very spoiler filled
obviously for people who haven'tseen it but it's also just some

(01:02:09):
of the coolest elements of the short.
So it feels like putting it out there is worth checking out if
you're into that kind of stuff. I believe it's
darkmattermagazine.shopwillordarkmattermagazine.comwill both take you to the
magazine and I think it's free to read online.
It's it's cool to highlight someof that stuff and and he's been
nominated for a handful of makeup effects awards and stuff

(01:02:30):
for the short. That's awesome.
That's been cool to see. Yeah, there's a lot to like
about this short, actually. Really just thank you for
watching it and checking it out and.
Thank you for sharing it with us.
Yeah. Really thanks for sharing.
Yeah. So we can gab with you on this.
I wish we, I mean, I wish we hadlonger to even talk about this.
But yeah, I mean it's a short, there's only so much we can say.

(01:02:51):
I mean, it's kind of the way youalmost designed it.
Instead, what is there to say? Well, you know, the initial cut
was a little bit longer what I would qualify as masturbatory.
Like let's put it like an editor.
Really a feeling is and just living in a sequence way too
long. It's like how long does he need
to say Charlene in the basement before we understand that she's

(01:03:15):
not going to show up. So, but which is also beneficial
in just growing and evolving andand refining and stuff.
I would definitely have cut downthe script before I shot it if I
were doing it again. Let's think about this ahead of
time. You're shooting an out of pocket
short and trying to do it in as few days as possible.

(01:03:36):
Maybe this office scene doesn't need to be these couple extra
pages longer than it. Then it, you know, ends up being
in the final cut. Because now I watch it and I'm
like, I don't even remember whatI cut out of.
Cut out of it because it's like,it all feels essential and and
yeah, yeah, so. Well, I mean, after the
festivals, you can just release the editor's cut, put it all
back in there. I don't know.

(01:03:59):
Vids, yeah. I don't know if there's a huge
market for that, but. Release the fill cut.
Yeah, I don't need it. My Zack Snyder following.
So everybody knows by the end ofthis, if you want the full and
unedited version the fill cut ofthis episode, you can head over
to chaoschefi.com/walkingdead orpatreon.com/walkingdead because

(01:04:24):
that's available to those who tip us and those who join a
membership tier for as little asa dollar a month.
Because who doesn't want more Phil and less of me?
But thank you again for joining us and hopefully your kid gets
over that cough soon. He's fine.
He'll survive. I'm sure that he didn't even ask

(01:04:44):
his brother or my wife as it's like it's sitting on the counter
up there already put out with foresight like this is going to
happen. I'll make this as easy as
possible. I know he didn't look, I know he
just came down. It's what having a six year old
is like. What it is Yeah, they're all
really, really great kids. And Chuck is really into horror,
and he's probably watched thingsthat he shouldn't have watched.

(01:05:07):
Well you guys did the cult masksfor during the pandemic.
I I just saw that recently today.
The onk mask sort of situation. Oh yeah, when we were pregnant
with Faye, or my wife was pregnant rather.
She did the heavy lifting there.When we announced that we were
having a third kid, I made a an announcement video, and it's my

(01:05:27):
kids reading the Latin version of Mother Goose Rockabye Baby.
And there's like a they're wearing these cult masks with,
like, a weird pacifier symbol onthem.
Chanting. And I walk out and there's like,
the TV's flickering and they've set up these weird lights and
they're just chanting and laughing and you hear like, my

(01:05:48):
wife scream from the other room and I run in and then her
stomach is inflating with a babyand she refused to be on camera.
So for good reason. So it's like I had a split
screen myself and I reversed a balloon deflating in under my
shirt, but just in the, which isthe stomach in the foreground.
So that might say that might be up online.
That's that's called the sibling2 because we did an initial

(01:06:12):
sibling one with her other son. But yeah, so now the oldest one
watches all The Conjuring moviesand all neat movies and and I
don't know why he's interested in those things at all.
It's anyones guess. I think having an editor dad and
like him being interested in me showing him as I'm building
things or seeing kind of the make believe of it, there's a a

(01:06:35):
healthy sort of understanding ofthe separation of reality and
make believe and the craft of it.
So he's now it's like it's like disassociated from his reality
where it's like oh like yeah, there's just a scary thing
happening or whatever. How do they do that?
That's cool. That's.
Not a real Walker, it's just a guy in.
A mask. Yeah, right.
Yeah. Eating.
Cheetos eating Cheetos specifically are like in season

(01:06:57):
seven, our Walker, who's entangled in the shopping cart
in seven O 2 in between takes toshield him from the sun.
They're bringing in like the most colorful rainbow umbrella
and like holding it over him. And you just get to watch the
dailies after cut. And then you see like, Oh yeah,
there's this. He's just like chatting it up or
being on set. The walkers are all like having

(01:07:19):
coffee and smoking a cigarette or skateboarding.
Or, you know, this is a weird job.
Let's normalize this. I don't think I'd said anything
that's going to get me in trouble.
Oh boy, I can't think of any. I mean, I think they gave it
away on the after show vignette,which I was very grateful they
didn't use anything that they interviewed me on.

(01:07:41):
I think I'm in there like in some of the B roll talking about
rebuilding the sanctuary and recreating it.
It's like, I don't think they care if people know that's like
this isn't the same exact set, but it's even more impressive
that it's not because of how close they really got it.
Recreating that was a massive undertaking.
Endeavor, yeah. Yeah.
And they and they pulled it up. So I think they've they've

(01:08:02):
already said and if people thought, oh.
Yeah, they did. AMC is really good about
spoiling their own stuff, so don't worry.
Yeah, mostly character reveals. But yeah, let's let them, you
know, I think they're just trying to get ahead of the
audience spoiling it. Maybe.
But now that it's the right call.
But they've been doing that increasingly on shows for the
like, even not AMC. I remember working on Parenthood

(01:08:24):
on NBC, and we had like an episode that ended with a
marriage proposal as a cliffhanger.
And literally it was like next week on Parenthood.
Yes, it. Was like the answer to the
question. I was like, all right, well, I
guess that doesn't matter that it was like the point of the
episode was, is she going to sayyes?
She has a lot of reasons to say either thing.
So we don't know. And it's like, no, the NBC promo

(01:08:47):
was like. And it's not even yes and it's
just yes. And all the wonderful things
that happening afterwards, right.
I think they're just like, oh, somebody's going to figure it
out eventually. We're just going to put it out
there. There's no, like, theater to
distribution anymore. I think it's just either people
are going to watch it because they like it, or they're not.
Maybe we'll get more eyeballs ifwe tell them that Daniel

(01:09:09):
Sherman's back. But for the people who are
invested, who don't want things spoiled for them, that reveal
would have been 100 times coolerif you did not know it was
coming. That's where it's like short,
short changed, you know? Yeah, that might be a
generational thing, I think too,where we were used to having
that cliffhanger and waiting. But maybe in a world where
nobody wants commercials becausethey're like, what is this?

(01:09:32):
Because I didn't grow up on thisand.
Having to wait week to week and not binge shows all at once,
it's they just can't handle it. And also in a dwindling cable
audience demographic, you have to try to get in as many people
as possible, so it's hard to justify making them wait.
And we we've talked about this alot over the years too, and how
there's a difference in the way we watch shows and then we've

(01:09:54):
seen it in the universe, in The Walking Dead universe too, How
things are are boarded, even feel different.
There was like a shift in telling stories, not keeping in
mind the commercials it feels like.
More shows from in the last few years have been more geared
towards long term viewing, catering this now for an
audience that's going to end up streaming these shows later on
rather than timing our emotionalbreaks for the commercials.

(01:10:17):
Yeah, it's like selling, sellinga car or selling.
Yeah, whatever it is. Yeah, exactly.
Exactly. It's a whole thing.
But then again, thank you so much for for being on with us.
And I I hope you get to do this again soon too.
You know, in in another venue, in another film.
So we can follow you. Yeah.
Well, thank you so much for having me.
Hopefully my monotone tangents are super boring.

(01:10:39):
And, you know, it's a good sleepaid.
Everybody can, you know. I'm pretty sure after they see
Toadboy, they'll welcome your exposition, so.
We'll just pair the scenes next week and we'll be really anyway,
we'll take care everybody watching this right now and

(01:10:59):
we'll see you with another interview or episode breakdown
and hopefully we get to see and talk about Fillmore in the
future. Yeah, yeah, that's the goal.
Everybody enjoyed Sanctuary and definitely stick around for the
the last few episodes. Three more to go.
Yeah. Three more to go.
Exhale. Yeah.
Look out for next week. One of my favorite sequences.

(01:11:21):
Gonna be watching. Coming up.
James Armstrong, the third directing, I think.
I think he's the 3rd, right? He's the third, Yeah.
I don't know. Maybe I actually don't know.
But I don't know. I don't know what his his dad's
name was or his. He was also a stunt guy too.
Yeah, yeah, no, it's a like I I got a pretty sweet hat.
He gave me it, says Armstrong. Action on it.
It's like the action company again.

(01:11:43):
Another great guy. Super talented.
Super, really, really glad that my episode came before his so I
don't have to follow him. Wow, it's just coming out one
after another, deny you crazy. It's really great.
The one thing I kind of wanted to see near the end is.
Take chances. Let's let's introduce more ideas

(01:12:03):
and and perspectives and input and spice and flavor and then
more than anything else let the show go off with a bang.
Let's see what we can do with all this.
So I think it was the right call.
Can't wait to hear what you guysthink about them too.
Me too. I don't even know how it's going
to turn out, but but I already know that.
What did I say? What did I say?
The first thing I said was what an unbelievable episode and and

(01:12:26):
Sharon he was like, but unbelievable good or bad and I
just like left it. I just said I said ha ha ha ha
ha. She's like no, I still don't
know what you mean by that for the record good.
I'd like to make that clear. Take care everybody.
Have a good night and we'll see you in another one.

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