Doma Smo |SEASON FINALE| The Walking Dead: Dead City

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Yeah, Oh, squabble dead. A podcast pro world.
Episodes of King Greg Reverse. We are squawking dead of podcast

(00:23):
pulverizing episodes beyond The Walking Dead universe.
Sometimes we give you news like we did this weekend.
Sometimes we make you laugh. Well, hopefully, inevitably do.
But most times we go deep. I'm here with Steve Cami and I'm
joined by Cosmo 09, Rachel Byrd,Sharon DK, Blazi Gardner and
Bridget keodishify.com Punky Brewster, PONKYBRUASETER.
And of course we're here with Survivor.

(00:43):
See. Remember takirakeodishify.com?
Connie Dixon the number 4 Lyfe? To talk about the season finale
of The Walking Dead, Dead City titled DOMA Smo.
And when I'm with you guys, we are home.
Oh, and like, you know, I did a huge thing.
Oh, it just flew over everybody's head.
Everybody. I flew.
Over this drunk chanting DOMA SMO at like the next convention

(01:06):
that we're at 0. My God.
Make it so #1. Just saying.
There's gonna be so many videos.Happening.
Of David walking down the hallway and we're all just
screaming. And we are all.
And that was drunk. That one.
That one, Javid. Drunk 1/2.

(01:29):
I wanted to say that Bridget hadbroken down not only the
trailer, but also the 10 minutesof footage from the first
episode of The Walking Dead, Daryl Dixon that people had
received this weekend from AMC Plus.
So in the blog now I can link tothat video that she did with
both she and Takira. I highly suggest you head over
to her channel, which is I thinkit's youtube.com.

(01:51):
Slash at Punky Brewster. That's KYBRUYSET.
Er oh, and Mitchell hasn't had the chance to watch the 1st 10
minutes since AMC. Plus in Canada isn't giving it
to me. Oh no.
Well, you can go watch that breakdown.
It's pretty thorough. It's.
Very thorough. It did not impact my watch of it
later on at all. You know, something to be said
about spoilers, but you're not really getting the whole episode

(02:12):
anyway. You're breaking down the
trailer. You're breaking down the 1st 10
minutes. So I saw you know what A let me
support my dear friend and cohost Bridget.
And by extension. Which thank you.
Secure gets that. Testing 2 individual says
Jackbox Games when maybe when wecome back because no show means
we can have a little bit of fun while I plug away in the behind
the scenes to try to get out some of the things that we have
on hold. It's just by the nature of

(02:33):
necessity of trying to break down these episodes on time.
Fear The Walking Dead and the overlap with Dead City.
We want to finally release the panels that we did at the camp
which are still pending. We we have another episode in
the back burner called Favorite Moments.
David from Fear The Walking Deadright.
Say it right, Dave. Great episode.
I happen to be on it actually, too, which is not why it was

(02:55):
great, actually. It's probably was a little bit
more funny because that was not prepared.
But because basically, I had no list.
I had no list of favorite modes.I was like, oh God, so maybe
this moment is good for our list.
No, he was saying episodes, so he would say whole episodes.
More like that snow. That's gonna be edited out, OK,
but you can get the unedited version of that.

(03:16):
But I think already on our Kofi and Patreon.
So if you if you want to watch that episode, you can.
You could have done it months ago, so head over to either Keo
deshi5.com/walkingdead or patreon.com/walkingdead and just
watch it now. Trust me, the unedited is very
entertaining. Oh my God, it is.
Only if you like hearing us laugh, though.
Oh yeah, true. Not.
Yeah, Blue CAT514 find you. OK, so let's start with Takira.

(03:43):
When it comes to why what? I'm sorry.
I'm just realizing how little tea I heard.
You know, we like to give our survivors to your members a
little forward treatment becauseyou know, it's sometimes they
can't make it and sometimes and they pay for it too.
So, so to hear. Oh, we pay.
Trust me. What was your pay?
What? What was your impression?
Well behind the scenes, but you like it to kick.

(04:05):
What do you? What did you think of this
episode, and how do you feel about the series now that it's
come to a close? On the whole, because of it?
And that's the only impression we'll have for this whole night.
So kidding. No pressure.
We got a lot of questions answered.
We got a little tussle between Neggy.
Overall. I was really worried about the
six episodes thing. I'm worried about that with all

(04:26):
of the new series. I didn't really think they would
be able to give us much and six episodes, but I think they
actually did a really, really good job.
My initial reaction is. Meh, but oh OK.
I feel like we're being heavily set up for a Season 2.
Do we know this for sure, or arethey just teasing us?
Because I don't know. We know this for sure because of

(04:46):
SDC. OK, I even put on our.
Social media. I work 1000 hours a week and I
don't have any free time ever. What have I said, Rachel?
You say lots of things. Well, it's true.
It's actually very true. So most things that nobody
listens to, but at least this one thing is that I say to you
there is no stupid question because there's always someone
that doesn't know these facts. SDCC happened over the weekend.

(05:09):
We did a live stream, we condensed it for the audio
packets, but not by much. We did some light editing.
That's it. The second season announcements
happened during the thing. We couldn't show it.
We didn't feel like we could because we thought there would
be some spoilers from the last episode contained in that
announcement, but there wasn't. So we showed that announcement
along with a little. Preamble to give people
permission to actually watch it for those who skipped it.

(05:31):
Now that you see that there's a perhaps a big setup for the
second season, does that change the way you feel about it?
Not really. I mean, the episode as a whole,
I'm like, it happened. Some stuff happened.
Did anyone think that Maggie wasn't gonna find Herschel by
the end of the series? No.
I think we all saw that coming. Everything that we thought was
gonna happen happened. It just wasn't a huge splash for

(05:51):
me. Yeah, I agree with you.
I saw almost everything coming. Yeah, there was number.
Big twist or anything. The one big twist?
That they could have given to uswas spoiled in the trailer,
Negan with the knife to Maggie'sneck.
Similar to the first episode. Yeah, that would have been the
the big thing. And they showed it to us.
So we knew that was coming. And also some of the behind the
scenes footage, the peep the fantaken behind the scenes footage

(06:13):
had shown that a little bit too,which you know if you'd saw it
and I, you know, it was everywhere.
The kind of a spoiler. It's not really a spoiler, but
it's like not something you really want to see before it's
done right in production, editeddown the way they want to show
it, which you know if you watch.How that happened.
It is similar to the way Maggie has Negan by the throw by the
first episode. I like the symmetry, that hat

(06:33):
that's been happening. The yin Yang Ness of of seeing
some of these scenes paired together in the blog for the
last episode, which way I've cranked out yesterday and
finally released. I showed the silent scream from
the flashback that we finally get of the crow I'm making the
deal with Maggie. I made a GIF of that and it made
peanut butter. Yeah, I made peanut butter with
that clip and the first silent screen that we got from the

(06:55):
first episode too. So like, it just shows the 1st
and you start to feel things. But anyway, so Sharon D, do you
have a similar reaction to Rachel?
I liked it. I thought it was it was
entertaining. Again, like I said, those
surprises. Everything I figured was gonna
happen, happen. Like you said, Rachel.
But if this hadn't been a seasonfinale, it would have been
great. But as a season finale, it was
very lackluster. Yes, I get that they were

(07:17):
heavily getting ready to set up for the second season or
whatever, but that doesn't mean you can't have a bomb ending for
the season that we're in. Well, the fight was OK.
I do like the tension between Maggie and Egan, but there was
just nothing spectacular in thisfor me to go holy shit, and I
feel like you should in a seasonfinale, have a Holy Shit moment
and it just wasn't there. I have complicated feelings
about that because you did sort of get that in the original

(07:38):
series. You have there six episodes.
You kind of try to make every set episode more grandiose than
last. And I think they did that in
that series, and I think they sort of tried to do that for
fear, and they sort of did with the death of SPOILER ALERT.
After after almost a decade killing off Eliza Ortiz at the
end. And so it actually answers the
question that I'd asked of well,does that mean we might get the

(07:59):
song Anything Goes sung by EthelMerman but by Cole Porter which
is about the erosion of social norms Overtime, I had said could
this mean that we get a bigger death in the last of 6 episodes?
And no, we don't get that, but we get a huge setup at least,
Thomas said. Finale was OK, Not the greatest,
but the split screen with their faces was awesome.
Yes, agreed. That shot was awesome.

(08:20):
It was just perfectly symmetrical.
If you were talking about symmetry, Dave, about symmetry
of the scenes like that was perfect symmetry right there and
how they timed it perfectly for them to lift their faces at the
exact same perfect perfect. The lighting was pretty good,
yes. To show them at the exact same.
Yeah. Oh, and, Mitchell says.
I really didn't like the end of the episode.
First of all on Frey on 814 saidepisode six was absolutely
fucking awesome. He really, I mean, and I really

(08:42):
liked it too much love from Canada, hey buddy.
From Peterborough, Canada, Bernard Young says.
I got to be a background on the whole season of Fear and it was
great working with all the stars, especially Danielle,
Danielle. Reuben Blades, Emily says.
I'm so tired of the rinse and repeating of the same shit that
happened in S10 and S11. I don't disagree, actually.
However, I like that it's in a sense an expanded and explored
version of that. But she says I would entirely

(09:02):
rather have them having separatestories apart, in which it seems
like by the end of this episode their stories may be separate
but also related. Even though they know the rinse
and repeat is annoying for us, they're doing it on purpose so
that we can understand Herschel and what he's going through.
And the fans, something that needed.
Has said Nor should you to Maggie get over it.

(09:23):
I think that's important. Meaning only an insane person
would forget no, Oh no, I'm. I'm backing you up.
I'm saying only an insane personwould say that what happened to
Maggie Glenn and her unborn child was forgivable.
Right. And so it's sort of like, hey,
fans, that really like what I did don't.
So, Bridget, let's go to your first impressions.
I liked it. I thought it was good.

(09:44):
I don't. I feel like it got really
negative and hear you guys. I think it was good.
I don't want it sound like I didn't like it.
I did enjoy watching it. I just feel like it could have
been a little more oomph to it and.
I didn't like it. I just said I.
It happened. I could see there being some
sort of like huge gasping. I can't believe that that just

(10:06):
happened now. I felt like I got a little bit
of that in two different regardswith the new Babylon situation,
cuz that was concerning to me. And then also the toe both were
weird and creepy and not like Sophia in the bar.
Darn, but I am like, desensitized.
Why is everybody laughing? Now you know how I feel.

(10:27):
What just happened? What just happened?
OK, you want a toe? I can get you a toe.
I can get you toe by 3:00 PM with nail Polish.
The Big Lebesque, everyone. It was exactly like in.
Regards to retreading things from season 10 and season 11,
now I agree to Kara, they're doing that to showcase what

(10:49):
Herschel went through. But some of it also is, as
humans, we don't let go of things very easily.
So I think it would be foolish to act like either one, you blew
past it, or two, we're not replaying the same stuff over
and over again because literally, I am staying up at
night. To think about a guy who did
waving arms at me and yelling inthe car because at a stop sign

(11:12):
before we stopped, I went to theat the same time as the person
across from me. And the guy who was waiting on
the other side did like that. And I still think about that and
happened a months ago and also I've never met that guy, So what
do I care? But this is what I'm saying.
Like we as humans, especially neurotic or anxious humans, tend
to replay stuff over and over and over again.
So I don't think it's unrealistic to like retread

(11:33):
ground. And they're showing us.
That Maggie has extreme PTSD because she is still having very
vivid nightmares about the nightGlenn died.
I had attributed that to feelinglike she needed to harness that
trauma in order to do what she needs to do.
But that doesn't mean that she doesn't occasionally think about
it or not. When she doesn't have to, she

(11:54):
thinks about it. Yeah, it would permeate every
aspect of your life and not onlythat.
Which Hershel says. She chose to follow the route of
anger and wanting vindication and revenge isn't?
That interesting because in. Episode three, I think it is.
People are resource. Negan puts on that version of
himself to get through a situation.
So isn't Maggie in a sense doingthe same?

(12:15):
But we're seeing it happen across these episodes.
She's putting on this anger thatshe needs to in order to get
Hershel back. It's not like she wants to.
I I don't think she wants to, but I think she needed to do
that in order to get this done, because how do you do that to a
person, even if it's Negan? From what Herschel says to her,
she's been angry the whole time.I was gonna say so.
Do you think she's been having these vivid nightmares and

(12:36):
everything all along, or just since she had to go look for
Negan? Do you think this has been like
a constant thing? Because I can see how that would
make someone angry and better ifyou had to have that nightmare
every night of your life. Or is this just something that's
restarted now because she's having to deal?
With, I think the latter more than the former.
I would think either would be possible if she has been this
angry for most of Herschel's life, which I'm guessing like
she wasn't before she rejoined with our group and season 11,

(12:59):
because that was when she came back into contact Negan, right?
So all of a sudden she comes into contact this guy, and then
she's completely changed person.She's angry again, and
Herschel's growing up with that now.
Before she came back, the version of Negan she had in her
mind was that blubbering, pitiful puddle of a of a man.
And that's probably how she liked remembering him.
When she came back and saw that he had a lot of people had had

(13:22):
forgiven him, he was reformed, He was out of the jail cell that
probably stirred a lot of stuff up for her and didn't didn't sit
well with her. So she probably was OK for a few
years until that happened. I always felt like her anger was
really part of the reason she laughed.
In the first place, yeah. Well, yeah.
She couldn't be around him, yeah.
Couldn't be around Rick too. Yeah, While he was pathetic, I
don't think that she necessarilylet that go, even for a little

(13:45):
bit there. So even in that time couldn't
kill him is gone. Though like she went down there
to kill him and thought, well maybe living with this is a
worse punishment. She could have killed him.
That was her intention. When she went down there, she
would often live with a different group of people, and
she didn't have to think about which she did, obviously,
because she told stories about him.
But I'm willing to think that perhaps she it wasn't ever
present in her time. She could move on and do other

(14:06):
stuff because he wasn't there. She'd have to think about it.
But now she's come back and she's had to think about it.
And even over the past few years, she's had to think about
the forgiveness, all that. So I'm thinking that Herschel's
is seeing her change. Like we were just talking about
Daenerys, right? He saw her change just on this
snap and now she's she's totallydifferent.
But it's not about him anymore or taking care of him.

(14:27):
It's about getting back in Egan.Everything about her is about
Negan, not about. Him which is fair.
He said that she's always been waiting and looking over her
shoulder for Negan. She's never seen him, he said.

(14:47):
Well, let's go to what Emily? She's always either seen Glenn
or Negan, not Herschel. So to me it doesn't seem like
something has just come up. It seems like she's been this
way the whole time. Says Bridget.
She said she probably has them all the time, but they're worse
with the triggers of being around him, which I could see
that being a real case. I mean, trauma does some really
crazy things to your brain, for instance.
Personally, and I haven't gone through anything even remotely
close to what Maggie went through.
I went through personal. Health issues that trigger me
but sometimes give an ambulance shows up where I am, that's

(15:11):
enough to trigger me. And this is from someone who's
in therapy actively working through my stuff.
Maggie doesn't maybe have that as an option, right?
She's doing everything is self coping and while that can work,
you can create coping mechanismsthat help you get through
things. They're not always great.
And so it could be this hyper fixation on Negan became her
coping mechanism every time she looks at her.

(15:32):
So it makes her think of Glenn, which makes her think Negan.
Yes, I think. So.
I think it's complicated becauseI am going to say something that
might contextualize us a little bit more but what you'd said
before about therapy, Megan saysit's a Ginny in the third
episode, I want to say where like if this is the four times a
state doctor could look, could check you out and figure out
what's wrong with you. And then you go to this episode

(15:52):
and the dama says at least you're what you are, isn't born
out of some sort of psychosis. We're so there's this overall
general, general theme about ourproblems running away from us
and making us into the monsters that we probably don't even want
to become to begin with, Bernardsaid.
I play. Two parts.
Pod regard and Parent Army on fear.
I was the guard that got shot inthe neck with the dart from June
and got his finger cut off. I got revenge because that was
the guard that held June's wristwhen she got her finger cut off.

(16:14):
Anyway, enough bragging. I love the show.
I loved all of our show. Awesome.
That's awesome. Yes.
What an honor to have your finger.
You'd be shot by June and everything.
And get your revenge. Not as an actor.
Yes, yes, thank. You thank you.
Thomas says she told Michon in S-95 that she couldn't sleep.

(16:35):
Interesting. Yes, Thomas.
And by the way, I saw the comment.
Thank you Thomas. You're in the car watching us
from the car. Great.
I dedication. I know that's really.
I love you. OK Brian says I agree with you.
Sharon Day. I think seeing him again had
these memories, your surface andhaving to live with him made it
worse. That I definitely agree with.
It was one thing to see it in season 11.
See the reform, touch on the reform.
See how he's an asset to our group.

(16:56):
That's one thing. S10 S 11, fine.
But it's another thing to be embroiled be around him to have
to work with him, have to work with him, quote UN quote.
We kind of knew. Who This is what she was going
to end up doing to begin with. It's kind of like the Titanic.
I always use this metaphor because even I when I heard, oh,
they're making a Titanic movie back in 97 or I think it was 98
was like, oh, Titanic. What?
We all know the ending. Boat sinks.

(17:18):
Yeah, but it's how it happens, right?
Boat sinks. Who cares?
Spoilers, Dave. Spoilers.
Well, it happened. I'm think, what am I gonna tell
you? Oh my God.
But it's how it happens. And I I know this is like trauma
porn in essence, but it's reallyfascinating.
And the best part about is you get to see Maggie in slow.
Motion throughout all these episodes, by the end of the
episode, this episode, I thoughtthere was a lot better

(17:40):
contextualizing of of what Maggie's feeling, because it's
not just about Negan. I am HO.
She goes into the story about Macy's.
Well, I'm. I'm making it shorter.
In my own humble opinion, everybody.
Now twice. As long well, you laugh the
first, so we're gonna laugh the first time you laugh the second
time. Fine.
OK, so I use mini word and. When you do.
Trick. Exactly.

(18:01):
She had also chimed in, just like Megan did, about what what
New York City meant. To him about the souvenir, about
having this big day trip with his father, but that never
happened. When it came to her.
It was all about wanting to meetSanta and Macy's, which fuck, my
family used to go to the Herald Square, Herald Square right in
front of Macy's. The displays you get to see, the
little animatronic displays of Christmas, overtime and changes

(18:22):
every year to little things get added as per pop culture,
whatever little sneaky things. But anyway, that aside, she goes
back and she talks about how meeting Santa, Miracle and 34th
St. her idea of making him her best friend and fixing and.
Retrieving all the broken and lost toys she's ever had, which
contextualizes everything. It's not even about Negan and
her trauma. It's about everything.

(18:44):
It's about losing Beth, losing her father, losing her mother.
I thought that made the picture so much clearer for me as to
what her anger is all about or what she needs to feel like she
needs to access to get the job done.
Negan was just a catalyst in the, at the end of the day, that
trauma. It really makes sense out of
what the words that Herschel wassaying, which didn't register
with me the first time around because I was thinking about and

(19:05):
it's. Important to think about all the
things that he and she went through alone on the road when
she left our group. All the horrors that she saw on
the road, just she and he. Until she finally met people
like Georgie, the Meridian Groupand she lost all of them too,
similar to the tribespeople. So that's that's got to be
triggering too, losing all the people that she'd grown to care
for. I wasn't sure her timeframe of

(19:26):
her whole life if she meant pre apocalypse or the combination of
both, but she felt like the world was just constantly taken
from her, which just reminded. Reminded me of Herschel and
Beth, everybody that got. Her mom died before that too,
right? And then her dad became an
alcoholic. So I think she was referring to
her whole life. You're in the apocalypse.
You don't think something like this could happen, and then it

(19:48):
does. Having somebody like Glenn in
your life, then you're pregnant.You have a baby in this world.
And then you think maybe this islike The Walking Dead makes it
so you could be the person who you were meant to be.
Richard. Like I'm channeling you.
There's no schedule to keep up. There's no school to go to.
There's no homework. There's no this.
There's not. There's no guy cutting you off
on the street or. Sort of track of traffic
incident you're obsessing over. There's none of that.

(20:09):
So maybe this thing could be a real thing for me.
And then that's taken away from you too.
Look, I'm in and that's the catalyst, OK.
Therapy. I'm unlike anybody on this show
who should be right. So you've got you're an up just
way. You're in a way better position
than anybody could possibly be on this show.

(20:29):
Give you credit. OK, So Fran asks, what would
your reaction be if Negan and Maggie ended up together?
Because he's almost the Maggie fan bitches.
Seriously, I wouldn't be mad. So Sharon, he's like, yes, the
prophecy is foretold. You know what it is.
I love when a writer can proposeA premise behind the scenes,
obviously, because you can't tell the end of the road

(20:49):
beforehand, although you could and you can write your way out
of it. But it's kind of like when you
when a comedian tells a joke, that is definitely, definitely
if the premise of the joke was just laid out, it would be 100%
offensive. But I love how sometimes
comedians can make even the mostheinous things or heinous acts
or something, because they take the risk, high risk, high
reward. If they can write it their way
into something, that would be great.
I wouldn't be mad if they somehow made it so that we can

(21:11):
accept it. Well.
That's not there's that's not a possible.
They have crazy chemistry, that's all I'm saying.
That's what Negan said earlier. When they first bought and you
get on a killed Glenn this was not a consideration.
I'm sure the chemistry between him and Maggie.
But damn now that they've put them together since season 11,
the chemistry between them. I'm sorry.
It's just there and the looks they get like, I don't know.

(21:32):
I'm, I'm not. I'm not the Daryl and Carol
conversation. I was like.
I'm not 100% for it, but at the same time be like sparks are
flying, but it does. It's a friendship.
It's a friendship. It's their kindred.
Well, are they kindred spirits? I think the chemistry we all see
is between Lauren and Jeffrey because they're amazing actors,
not the characters, and they're executive producers.

(21:52):
So there is something to that. Sure, sure.
But I think by the end of this episode, could you say that
there is some sort of, I'm not going to say kindred spirits
like Carol and Daryl. I'm not going to say that
obviously their fates are linked.
So, I mean, we agree with that. The fates are linked.
They had their fates are intertwined.
At the very least, fates not other things that start with.
F not faces FA tes Rachel, Sorry, but would you say that

(22:15):
there is a connection between them that we don't 100% know
what it is? Because for the most part,
Maggie rejected it this whole time.
Well, actually I think that the dama said it, that this man
feels responsible for the familyhe destroyed.
So if anything, I'd say Herschelis a connection between them and
that circle is complete when he says to Herschel as he's passing
him by with the prisoner exchange, he says It's good to

(22:38):
see you, kid. Would they try to give Negan?
And Herschel, the Carl and Negan.
Sorry I didn't read it. So I'm just kind of going by
snippets that I read and heard from other people.
But at the end of the comic, didn't Carl kind of seek him out
and take him food or something like that?

(22:58):
Just kind of making sure he was OK even though.
Everything that had happened. Yes, Carl does check in on
Megan. Oh yeah, after he leaves, you're
saying you're giving that to Herschel, right?
Instead. OK.
Right. I'm thinking along the lines of
Herschel obviously is not happy where he is and I think he felt
like he would be happier back. Even said it.
I'd be safer back there and who better to take him under his

(23:21):
wing than Negan? But that's just gonna cause even
more NT between Maggie and Negan.
Or does Maggie feel like she needs to go and rescue Negan
from the pro Act? She doesn't know what's going on
as far as she knows. Those Egan was being carted off
to be tortured and murdered. I assume that's what that last
line to Herschel about how she'ssettling.
She has no idea what they were going to.
Like that she's gonna say, I assumed that was like, I'm gonna

(23:42):
go save him because I owe him that because of what I did.
Not because, like, he's a good person and that's why, but
because I'm a good person and what I did was wrong, Right.
Right. OK.
But Herschel is really, really interesting.
Do we want to read some commentsversus a lot of laughter when it
came to what I was trying to sayabout some sort of connection
between them? There will be no Hey Bang.
David Carranza is laughing his ass off and Emily says invisible

(24:04):
string. Yeah, the invisible string of
fate, Thomas says. I love this one.
Can heavily paint the Hank bag, and Emily says maybe for a good
amount of money. And so, Thomas, you know what to
do. Pam Alisa says she's going to be
back for him. Yeah, we could just springboard
off of what we just said about Herschel and Maggie settling it.
Well, I guess what that made me think of was the relationship

(24:24):
between Negan and Ginny right now too.
I mean, someone had speculated. I had read it somewhere.
I don't remember wearing out. Oh yes, he said a podcast had
said. Wasn't it Sharon D who said a
podcast had said that that Neganhad killed her?
Father and his dad. So we find that out in this
episode. I mean, obviously she's pretty
pissed, but. But her dad wasn't a random
Fran. This is a Franch hand.

(24:45):
He wasn't a random ranch hand. He was the mat.
He was either the magistrate oneof the four.
Or one of the four guys. Or was he, though?
OK, so this is what I wrote. This is what I wrote in my
notes. I don't know.
The Negan did kill her dad. This is a classic Harry and the
Hendersons. OK, you've got to explain that
because that is an old ass reference, Bridget.
Harry and the Hendersons, which if you haven't seen it, please

(25:06):
just go watch it because it's great.
It's about a Bigfoot that's found by a family and they love
him and they take him in. And now that you're saying it
though, isn't it ridiculous? And obviously you can't keep a
Bigfoot in your house. He's destroying everything and
he's eating all of your food. So they have to get him out.
Because also there's scientists that are looking to find Harry
so that they can test him, whichis not important scientists.

(25:29):
So they're going to take him outto the woods.
So they take him back where theyfound him and then John Lithgow
plays the dad, which is just great casting.
And then there's this whole scene at the end and it is very
sad where he is yelling at. And he's like throwing like
rocks at him to get him to leave.
And he's like, go on, get out ofhere.
We don't love you anymore. It's very dramatic.

(25:50):
Just like and then and. Here he's very sad and he's
like, but he's a Bigfoot so he doesn't talk.
So he's like and then he like walks away, but he keeps looking
over his shoulder like back like.
It's so like a dog who just got yelled at it's.
Yeah. So that I think that's what was
happening. Negan definitely killed her
dead. And why do we know that?
Because of the six episodes thatyou can watch with comments.

(26:12):
Terry from the actors. OK, you have to explain that
though a little bit. Everything I didn't know there
was commentary until you just mentioned it either the last
episode or did you mention it during our live stream?
I think like right after the last episode, I don't know.
I'm always just searching through AMC Plus and it was like
binge the whole season with commentary.
And that's something I used to be obsessed with, with DVD's.

(26:35):
So I immediately binge the wholeseries with commentary.
So what was it that they had mentioned in the?
Commentary He doesn't quite say the.
Words. I killed her dad.
But what he says is, in that moment, Negan knows that he does
nothing but speak the truth. And in that moment, he's
basically hoping that she can forgive his truth one day.

(26:55):
MMM, there's a bigger indicator.Away, right, Right.
There's a bigger truth to that in that talk about things that
lick symmetry and things that link back to the first episode.
Let's say this is a hard thing to watch.
But when he's holding Jenny and she's constantly going back to
him, she's trying to speak, she's going back to him, she's
hugging him. And it's kind of like that that
line that he yells to Maggie in the boat as they're heading up

(27:15):
to Dead City, He goes, how many fathers and husbands have you
killed? And it's a weird way of phrasing
people, but he's very specific. And when he says husbands and
fathers have you killed, and that's the thing that's been
tormenting him. And it goes to the song oh, hang
me, oh, hang me by Dave Van Ronk, whether the songs about
basically I'm a doomed man, evenif what I did was justified, who

(27:36):
does it affect? I killed someone's father.
It's like this. When you save someone's life,
you're responsible for it. It's it's it's similar
situation. You did the thing and now what?

(28:00):
And I feel like it's kind of what he knows he would have done
for Herschel had both parents been lost for some reason.
Now what? You're a doom man, but now what
do you do with the time you haveleft?
A man who's remorseful wants to make up for that for the act.
That wasn't intentional, but I'mtaking care of Jenny anyway.
I'm stepping up to do the right thing.
And actually goes to Fran's comment.
He says Negan's not the stepdad,but he's this dad that stepped
up. I love that comment, right?
I love that so much. Oh, I love that.
I love that. And you see that I got got
Herschel a little gift, Mama. You know, like like he's not
married to Mezzi. Elvis.
Yeah, I mean, he's the Fonz. Remember what Lucille said.

(28:23):
Why is he like? Being all of a sudden, like,
what just happened? Hey, little Mama I got, I got
her. Not kid, not kid.
A gift. You know, like, OK, he's not
with her. He's just like, trying to
pretend like he is. Because classic Fons, anyway.
Not really. You're jumping the shark, like,
literally right now. And if you don't know what that

(28:44):
is, I suggest you watch. All.
We don't need to explain that. Yeah, that's Happy Days is a
series you need to watch and theFonz is on it.
So that's it. But we're talking about a
different show. So anyways, yeah, I mean, who
knows what I'm referencing? But anyway, you get what I'm
trying to say. You get on, try to say Walking
Dead eternal. Hi.
First of all, I just thought Negan said that to Jenny to just
scare her. And well, let's take a poll

(29:05):
really quickly, at the end of the day, after saying all this,
do you think Negan had killed her father?
And it makes sense that it wouldbe the case.
Makes sense? Yes, I do.
Because what we know about Neganis he doesn't lie.
So that's true. If he wanted to push her away,
he wouldn't have done it by lying.
Yeah, I'm sure he would have kept angry to the great.
His only lie was you're just thedebt I had.

(29:29):
I had to repay that. But even that's not a lie.
I mean, not a lot, right? I feel like maybe that's what it
was in the beginning. So no, it wasn't a lie.
Either. Not just that.
Yeah, it became right. Yeah.
Not just Rachel. OK, so was.
Hey, Lois. Hi, Lois, what's?
David constantly laughing. I love you.
Walking Dead journal, says Eric.OK, David Kerns is fanboying.

(29:51):
Lois says no, just just says what the.
Reason David's head is so big, no.
To your question. Oh, OK.
OK. OK.
Geez. Context removed.
OK, Emily says yes. Really did kill her father.
OK, I love Lois. Lois knows it.
I hope. Anyway.
Uh, Thomas is like, can we not talk about sharks?
He's very triggered by sharks. Megan didn't kill.
He's still in the camp of Megan didn't kill her father.

(30:12):
Really just surprising. I wanted to point out in Negan's
story about what happened to Jenny, how whatever state her
father was in when she found himwas so horrific that she never
spoke again. And you know what else?
And Negan did that. OK.
I'm willing to say even this farthat yes, of course, he killed
her father. And in a brutal way as befitting

(30:35):
someone who does something so horrific to his wife.
It's such, right, right. Whatever.
But I think that scares him. I think having done that has
scared him. And I think think seeing the
realworld effect of not only having done that, to traumatize
her to the point where she can'tspeak, that's the thing that
makes him want to take care of her.
Yeah, right. Because you noticed that when
she starts speaking, he's a little bit angry, OK?

(30:55):
Now you want to talk, now you want to talk.
I mean, if you talked earlier, we just left you with somebody
earlier, right? Because like part of that was.
The more she talks, the less he's gonna want to send her
away. MMM.
OK. Bridget Touché.
That's what it is. That's why he's like, shut it
down, shut it down, got that shit down.
And I'm going. Let her talk, let her.

(31:16):
I was like. All we got was I want you to
Yeah, that's what we want. That's not what Negan wants
right now. So can we go to those words?
What do you think she was about to say to him?
I want you to What or is I? Want you to.
I want you to leave with me, yeah.
Come with me. Why did that not occur?
Because here this is. OK.
Let me give you context to why Ifelt feel this ways.

(31:38):
Because in the last episode the last thing she scribbles on the
wall is liar. And all I've been thinking about
is I'm writing this blog is thislie, this lie that keeps
persisting. That Brant Maggie feels she has
to say to justify her actions, the little lies she has to add
on to make it even sweeter like oh Negan, he's just helping me.
And also the crow had stole all our grain.
Like he used to build it up to like make it solid.

(31:58):
Like this lie has to be solid. Anyway, so I thought she was
about to say, I want you to killMaggie Orson.
Like I want you to do. You know what I mean?
Like, I'm thinking I want you toleave.
I didn't think of that. I'm like, I'm I.
Because we don't know who she is.
We don't know the kind of personshe is.
We know that she cares for Negan.
Should we know that she is attached to him.
But that's about it. We don't know what her murder

(32:19):
motivations are. We know she that she thinks
Maggie's a liar and is not to betrusted.
She. Said that what she wanted to
say. I want you to know she's got my
damn stuffy. That's kind of what I'm saying,
anyway. I love it.
I want you to get my dinosaur back.
I. Want you to slap and she got it
back at the end of the day too. So she is keeping Negan's

(32:41):
promise of Please take care again second time she he says
that above all else. I wanted to see her wake up and
be like not all this bitch was in my room.
Can be all pissed off that. Like.
You know what's gonna happen is Herschel and Jenny are gonna get
together. And yeah, Jenny's gonna tell her
so. All about what a liar his mom is
and how she gave up Negan for him.

(33:02):
Yes, it's gonna be. I know my mom sucks.
Maybe, yeah, Maybe the two of them are going to team up and
they're going to be like, we're going to go save Negan and then
they'll inevitable, right? Oh, how Romeo and Juliet of them
maybe her. Finally speaking is going to be
her telling Hershel about her stepdad Negan and all the good

(33:23):
stuff he did before right after he murdered her.
But you know what? Jenny may not really believe
that either. Yeah, And once she calms down,
she'll be like, Oh no, he was just telling me that to make me
leave, you know, like, so she may not even really believe
that. I think he I think he did it
though. Oh yeah, I do too.
And I also think that he doesn'twant to explain why because then

(33:44):
he has to tell her. I heard Dad's a piece of shit.
Right, right. We can't forget.
Like, yes, he did kill these men, but it sounded justified.
Which means, yeah, Jenny's dad is a piece.
And as we were saying before theshow with reference to Game of
Thrones, not absolute power, butpower corrupts.
And maybe he was a decent dad behind the scenes, but he was

(34:05):
not a decent person with power. And why expose?
Even Cersei, who was the worst person in the world, loved her
children. To her children world until the
very end. To her children, she was great,
right? Perfect.
Yeah. Beautiful.
OK, so Lois says she wanted him to leave with her because she
know what Maggie's up to. Yeah, I think I want to go to
Jenny for one second because they didn't have to include the
scene when Pearly and Jenny reached the Shores.

(34:25):
But as they reached the Shores, she looks over and I don't know
what she's thinking when she looks at the Shores.
She's obviously thinking of Negan, but at the same time you
pair that with the fact that sheleaves his flannel in Pearly's
car. I thought there was going to be
like a note in it because she doesn't talk, but I mean, she's
old enough to know how to write.I thought he was going to find a
note in a pocket, and that's interesting.

(34:45):
Pearly is going to find it in the pocket.
Wow, what an elaborate thought. I love it and not occurred to
me. That was a pretty tiny little
piece of dock that they used to float all the way back over
across the river. And you were talking?
At night, yeah, at night. On the dock and this kind of,
like cooler isn't. Cooler.
It looked much bigger in the brochure.

(35:06):
Yeah, well, it just so you know,the floating dock is made of
little set pieces of dock. How did Maggie and Herschel get
back off through? They took coolers, clearly.
No. Well clearly.
Well, of course the crow at not the cry.
Whatever this group is, who knows what?
The freak, the Burazi, I don't know.
But obviously they have the means to get to and from the

(35:27):
island, so they probably gave her some way of getting across.
So how that was, I'm not really interested in Also and.
Melissa They grew mermaid tales,haha, Shauna says.
Do you think it's it was left a good enough cliffhanger?
I love what we've set up. I like it.
I like it. I love the Herschel.

(35:48):
Piece wouldn't necessarily call it a cliffhanger though.
Like right now, I wouldn't call it that, but for lack of a
better. But maybe they weren't
guaranteed the second season until more recently.
And then you would want to writeit enough that it's not like, Oh
my gosh, they wrote a horrible cliffhanger and now I'll never
know, like so many. Shows.
That was the case then. They should have written a much

(36:09):
bigger blast of a finale. MMM.
Giant zip line across the HudsonRiver.
OK, I'll buy out. Accept that.
Yeah, sure. I'll accept anything.
Right, Thomas. Do we think Season 2 will be
longer? And do we think we will meet
Joshua Joshua Smith, Negan's son?
Let's take a step backwards whenyou see the Negan is basically

(36:31):
held captive by the dhama, or else the dhama will take more of
Herschel, let's say. Whatever.
I love love the idea that thank goodness he sent assuming this
is true Annie and Joshua way, because had they stuck around
they they too would have been fodder for the domma, let's say,
because the Croats been looking for him for a very long time and
it's just very interesting and just a thank goodness.

(36:54):
Who's to say that won't be a factor in the next season?
Because the dhama could find outfrom Herschel even that he had a
wife and son Because he'd met them.
Yeah, Or at least the brother. Yeah.
Annie. During season 11.
Yeah. Was she?
Know right now? Yeah.
So that could be. They could go.
I love is it, I love it. Ah, that's incredible, Rachel, a
master on Facebook, says. I like how they did their faces

(37:16):
at the end. Yes, we talked about that a
little earlier, but I'm so glad people like that.
There was another shot that was really cool.
It was their shadows. Their shadows were really long
across the ground and I was justreally, it was just a really,
really cool shot. They were running across the
roof or something, but it was just a really cool shot looking
for the crow at dry past. Right as I think, I think that
was, but it was just a really cool shot.

(37:37):
Their shadows, it was just neat.It's just another
cinematography. Also the same thing when they
ran through that empty building.Yeah man, that was beautiful.
That was amazing. Do you know what that empty
building was and why it's so interesting?
It's the Staten Island Ferry which you used to get stand on.
It's what most people use to seea good shot of the Statue of
Liberty. OK, But what's really great

(37:58):
about that is in recent years the Staten Island Ferry was
rehabbed. OK is the outside is like more
space modern like. But what they showed us in this
episode was, of course the fall happens in 2008 nine.
I know we say 8:00 because of walking to the world beyond and
here's Negan. But that I don't think that had
happened. And I will confirm in the blog
that I don't think that rehab happened until after that date.

(38:21):
So what it showed you for the Staten Island Ferry was the old
pre freefab of the of the exterior, which was sort of on
the money. And I think that might have been
filmed in New Jersey also where they put some of the old, you
know, like facsimiles of what that looked like in the front.
So I thought that was pretty cool.
When they ran through that. Room.
The interior. They just framed that in a
beautiful It was framed. Yeah, again, so many good shots.

(38:43):
Cinematography has never been a problem in this.
In this universe, it is always fantastic.
Choice. Choice.
I didn't say Bridget. I didn't say it this time.
Yuck. I wanted to, of course, talk
about the fight between Maggie Negan.
Yeah, so I thoroughly enjoyed it, and here's why there were
complaints. Oh, it's not realistic, blah

(39:03):
blah blah. Negan at no point wanted to hurt
Maggie. It was a fight of him getting.
Away from her, basically, so that he wouldn't have to hurt
her because she's trying to hurthim.
That being said, I thoroughly enjoyed watching Maggie fly.
I think Maggie likes man. We got.
Sorry. I think Lauren likes.
Maggie haters going on in here. Like, OK, I have a question for

(39:26):
you guys about that scene, actually.
So the beginning of this season,we set up that Maggie is afraid
of heights. Yeah, you got to see a little
that too. So you get to see a little bit
of she's like kind of trepidatious, like when she
turns or like when she goes overthe banister, you see her like,
pause for a second, so cautious too, as she's doing it.
Yeah, but I was just curious because it seems like

(39:48):
personally, as someone who is afraid of heights, I would have
a really hard time even walking that I would be like on my
hands. He's like scooting.
Across there's no, I think for the sake of time, I think, I
think Maggie would have done that, but I think for the sake
of time that's kind of moved to see it a lot.
So I was just curious, do you think that she is actually
afraid of heights? I'm afraid even to step on a

(40:09):
step stool. Or yeah, like when I get on a
step stool, I get like, I'm veryafraid of heights.
Not like the first rung, right? Like like the second third.
OK, that's when I start to get scared.
Or is it a fear of such high buildings because she was so
high up first time? Because she grew up in a rural
area and when I went to the Sears Tower for the first time,

(40:30):
I wanted to die so. I'm from here, man, and I can't
handle the heights either. A lot, you know, I have been up
many a building in Manhattan andI can't handle it.
Sears Tower fainted, almost fainted.
I mean, I'm getting better at this shit, but I'm still not
good at it. So I was just looking to hold my
wife's hand like a child. If you.
I'm serious. Is it a fear of heights or is

(40:51):
and she powered through it? Or is it just fear of huge
building heights? I would have been afraid of just
falling off into the walkers balloon.
I forget the height or I would have been cautious too.
Regardless, I she just didn't seem very cautious to me.
She was in a hurry. She was fueled.
She exactly she was. She was.
Was her show. Determination to get her show.

(41:12):
Uh huh. Yeah.
And yeah, she's still always fueled by her rage and anger
towards Negan. Yes, she has her plan.
Stick to it right. Yeah.
It's it's always been about whatshe had planned out and what she
decided to commit to for the devil let's say.
And Walking Dead journal says the fight between Maggie Nee was
good. What scared me about it was I
thought Negan stabbed Maggie in the neck.

(41:32):
Thank goodness. But Maggie I the choreography in
that scene is actually pretty good.
All the different moves Maggie was was trying to strike in the
way she was trying to strike Negan.
Of course Negan at his a game would have not let that happen.
He would have just knocked her the.
Out. Exactly.
But to your point, yeah, that wasn't his goal, Shawna.
I feel like she needed that and it was just a little stab like

(41:52):
letting off some steam. True.
She she did hold on to the pillars though.
Walking digital says Maggie's the goat.
Just saying greatest of all time.
For those who don't know why. I don't know Shawn.
It old people. Sorry, Shawna says.
I watched it three times. I only got to watch it twice.
But I every single time I find out a different nugget and David
is my cheerleader so I'm just gonna leave it at that, Thomas
says at premiere. Lauren said Maggie is afraid of

(42:13):
heights and Lauren is afraid of heights, which you'd said in the
second episode. I think I remember right Rachel
Lamesters. I'm not a fan of heights either.
All Lois Martin says fight or flight.
I like that. And that's exactly what it is.
She's just all fight. Shauna says she did hesitate and
hold the pillar as she went. She says you could see her stunt
double, though, in this episode.You could see them all if you
look hard. Yeah, really think about it.

(42:34):
So these guys are not getting any younger.
So get a little crooks in the knee and all that stuff.
Why was this the moment Maggie chose to attack Negan?
Was it because he was starting to figure things out or yes, I
don't feel like yes, there was areally a plan.
Man in motion. What was her plan to kill him?
How was that gonna serve her plan?
She just wanted to get the upperhand so that he she could force

(42:57):
him to go, which is. Or disabled.
Right or yeah. But he asked her about Jenny.
He didn't believe what she said.Oh, I just found her.
She just turned up in the arena.She made one miss.
Yeah, 3 * 3 lies that he found. He gave her when she said that.
Right. Yeah, right, she said.
She wanted to explain herself and that's when he's like.

(43:17):
Well, she said. I think.
She did like she was making a guess as to.
Maybe, Yeah. I think she wanted, but she
doesn't talk. So how?
Well, maybe it was speculating her reasons.
Yeah, that's why I was like, well, she's lying about the
reason she knows why she wanted to, so that's why it was like
trick. I know that know when she said

(43:38):
her, she wanted to explain herself.
I was like, well, that was a mistake.
No, she had not. Well and he it's it's it's
important. Remember context to Megan Negan
is gutted people for less like Spencer let's say.
But he gives Maggie three opportunities to correct the
record. There's three different lies
that she she tells that he's suss on and the third line was
just what what the? What is going on here?

(44:00):
I'm giving you three chances. She would have maintained to
have the upper hand for longer if she would have been more true
if she would have just been truthful.
Right, yeah, right. Yeah.
Which is exactly I would have helped you regard.
He was giving her that look and it looked like he was getting
ready to like, be like, fuck this.
Her face, yeah. Like she has no poker face
whatsoever. She's like, I'm I'm gonna step,

(44:24):
you know, yo, like. So legit though, isn't it?
Felt like, don't you know peoplelike that that can't lie for
shit? Yeah.
Maybe. Think of where she's at.
My notes say why was her effing face so obvious with that last
lie? Yeah, I feel like it's they're
so close to the prize and she's just so tired and so stressed

(44:44):
out that she just is having. Trouble keeping the facade up
anymore, like so much is. From the last right.
Well, she's still kind of still kind of strung out, but.
Lack of sleep overnight. They're hungry, they're tired,
She's stressed out. She's worried she couldn't keep
it on point anymore. Yeah, I I refer you back to
something that that Teo had, said Teo Rap Olson, who played

(45:05):
Sebastian Milton who we interviewed several times, it
seems like, but he he had said like imagine being in this world
and 24/7 your heartbeat is pounding, there's no TV to there
may be a book or two that you can.
Post apocalypse, there's not. And these walkers don't sleep.
Now take that and crank it up toabout 100 times that for Maggie.
Someone who's lost her child, Someone who's lost everything
and everybody and having her child kidnapped and having to

(45:27):
figure out what to do in that constant state of stress.
And cortisol amping her up. And she's she's trying.
She can't sleep every time she sleeps.
Thinks about the the lineup and so she's not getting any sleep.
She's not. She's not her best self.
And given all that, she's still a badness in Maya.
I wouldn't give Maggie a dragon either.
No Dragons for. #No Dragons for Maggie.

(45:52):
I wrote down she's always tryingto fight a guy and she's super
tiny. This isn't a bad thing I'm
saying about Maggie with the Reaper.
She got her ass kicked every single time and got right back
up and continued the fight because she is so determined and
so badass no matter how I feel about her.
And you know, that's one thing that has continued with Maggie

(46:12):
that I do appreciate about her. She's like a little dog going
up. It's the big dog.
She doesn't know how small she is, so she just goes at it, even
though the big dog could like Chomper and One Bite I.
Mean, isn't she, Honey badger Don't care.
Takes out like some of the biggest predators and you know
what? Accurate and consistent, which I
like. At the end of the day, with

(46:32):
help, she got the upper hand on the reapers and took them out
savagely and you know Gabriel opening the door, right.
But then, like she just went right through it and just power
bound. Goodbye, Washington.
I mean, poor Washington. I got a thing for the savage
ladies, right? I love Maggie.
No, I know. Do I?
Think she's right all the time? No, I don't think she's right
all the time, but. Rick wasn't right.

(46:54):
She's a. Badass.
Right all the time. Carol's not right all the time.
I'm just want to say that. Not at all.
But it depends on who's on the screen with Maggie.
I've never really been like, oh,I'm a Maggie fan, but there's
times when I'm kind of rooting for her, depending on who she's
like up on the screen with, yeah.
Yeah, 100. Percent feel like once Glenn was
killed and she had the baby, herstoryline kind of just would a

(47:15):
different way. She couldn't really be the
physical go out there and slay everybody.
Badass became more of a leader. But yeah, like a politician,
right? Delegating with Rick and all
that, yeah. Her character art changed a
little bit. She became, I was gonna say
Xander, but she became Gregory, in a sense, but like a better
guy, Gregor. Way better.
Flourish. Way better.
Yeah, Gregory. Yeah, but just like Gregory, she

(47:36):
kind of neglected her duties. After a while, it fell to Jesus.
Right? So.
Her anger has been festering fora long time because we did see
she was able to be a politician,she was able to lead and this
was all after Glenn died. She was able to do these things
rationally and over the years her anger has just sat inside of
her and fester this whole time and it is just eating away at

(47:56):
her. Her.
And yes, on one hand she's become more of a warrior and
everything, but I mean, she's also unraveling a little bit in
a very unpredictable and dangerous way.
I think a lot of that unraveling, though, is due to
how Herschel is behaving towardsher.
And yes, he's just being a teenager, blah, blah blah.
But I think it goes a little further than that.
He's being a shithead, Yeah. It's not just being a teenager.

(48:19):
Well, he's being a teenager in the apocalypse.
Too, when his mom came and got him, he she hugged him.
He didn't even hug her back likehe just.
There. What does he fucking brand
Stark. Come on.
We're not in an apocalypse, and my son doesn't even do that.
So. But when was but Rachel?
When was the last time he was kidnapped?

(48:41):
Well, by the. By the Croat, I think Herschel
has Stockholm syndrome. I was gonna say that earlier, so
thank you for bringing that up. Let me drop something that I
wrote in my notes to open up this conversation a little bit
more. At the end of the day, Herschel
was right. Herschel's been brainwashed,
maybe. And the Croat has gotten worse
overtime. Instead of killing kids, he's
using them as a resource He's recruiting.

(49:01):
Wait, them? Yeah, moved on from killing kids
using him. People are resource now.
Wait, does Herschel feel as though he single handedly
handled his mother's knee? Problem in a sense for all the
ways she was trying to revenge Negan having been captured, you
know having been used as this pawn.
Does he feel in a way that because they kept him safe,
let's say the Croat and all his people or the dama.

(49:22):
Do you think that they made him actually feel safe?
I meaning I am the safest with these people who have all this
might when Maggie has been trying so hard and could never.
I'm thinking about the before times when they're on their own.
The pregnant, limbless bodies, all the the horrible stories
that Maggie and he. Undaddly endured on the road,
plus losing all the Meridian people that Herschel himself had

(49:44):
formed friendships with. If you see the 10C episode 1017,
which is called Welcome Home, I think it was called or something
like that. So with all of that he never
felt safe too. And he puts this on his mom like
you said like a shithead. But does he feel like in a sense
he doesn't have his like F you. I did it myself.
I got rid of your killer. Now what?
Mom. Are you gonna finally see me
now? Do you think he feels that that

(50:04):
that sense of like I did that I got your killer.
I got my dad's killer when he all this time.
We've been trying to get get at him, trying to get your revenge.
What do you think that that someof that is in his attitude?
I I didn't get that. I didn't get that at all.
The re it was more that he wanted it.
He wants the attention from his mother over her attention.
Is what it is right but as a mechanism to get but I don't.

(50:25):
Think he's like, I don't think he felt like he delivered me
again at all. He didn't do anything except get
kidnapped, so. Incidentally, well, because I
think he feels like, I mean, he says, Connie says it.
He says. I felt safer when I was with
them. So in a sense, like, does he
feel like he's on there? Side I mean, kind of feels like
it, yeah. But I think he has Stockholm
Syndrome, that's why. No, no.
And that's true. But like, it still doesn't

(50:46):
change the fact that he might feel like he can take the W,
right? I don't think so from.
I don't need. No, Maybe he can get both
things. He can get this family and he
can get his mom back, let's say.I don't know.
I don't think. So guys, I have so, so much more
to say, but I don't have time tosay at all.
I have to work tomorrow and it'ssuper late.
Do you want to drop a big nuggetthat we can talk about before

(51:06):
you go? Yeah, I could drop a big nugget
and then just. We've dip out.
On the biggest. Bomb this episode.
I'm so scared. Why am I scared to say this?
Why are you scared to say I justsay it?
Everybody knows how I feel aboutNegan.
This, this whole series didn't change how I feel about Negan
whatsoever. I was neutral about Maggie going
through all all the seasons and everything.

(51:28):
She didn't bug me, but you know,I wasn't rooting for her either.
But this last episode, I I don'tlike Maggie at all.
I don't like her at. Oh man.
Just so many parts of this episode made me dislike Maggie
so much. Good night.
OK, question. Love you, Rachel.

(51:51):
I want you to think about this that.
Before you go, I love you. Is this maybe a situation where
you hate in others what you hatein yourself?
Sort of situation like you woulddo the same thing, no?
But I mean, I think you all knowme well enough generally when I
despise someone like this. In this way it's the.

(52:12):
Parenting it all it. I mean, yeah, that's what it
comes down to for me. She's a fighter.
She's a warrior. She can hold her own.
She's got that down. Everything else.
And if we had more time to discuss it, I might be able to
back myself off the sledge a little bit.
But I just, that's OK after that's that ring out, after this
episode. I'm hearing everybody.
I'm like, you know what, Just let her.
She'll stay with the girl. And we'll get your thoughts

(52:36):
after Rachel Lee. Good night, Rachel.
Rachel's the kind of person to give someone a souvenir for
their kidnapping. So there's.
Lovely. Guy.
Love you, Rachel. Bye.
Thank you for sticking around asmuch as you have.
So many things to say off of that.
It also ties into a little bit of what we were saying earlier.

(52:57):
I just wanted to say Maggie was never a nice person when her and
Glenn were like doing their thing.
Like I didn't find. Her to be a nice person.
I didn't find her to be a character that I was like, oh, I
love her now. When she slapped Shane, I was
all for it. When she told off Andrea, yes,
because I hated those two, but Inever was really like, oh, I
love her. It was a few moments like when

(53:19):
they were at the prison and she like got a good Walker killing
and she turned around like, Oh my God, did you see that?
I loved that moment and she brings me to tears every time I
watched the episode where Beth dies.
But I just never thought she wasa nice person.
Did you think she was a good? Person I thought she was.
A good person. That doesn't mean she wasn't a
good person. She just wasn't a nice.
But I don't really think I'm. Going to qualify something of a

(53:40):
nice. Person, you know what I mean?
So she's been pissing me off since she got back Archer on
part one. Was it?
Yeah, it was Asher on part. 1. Yeah, she came back in season
10. Ten.
Oh, yes, she did. Well, see, you know, I was happy
to see her in that episode. And then right after that.
She's been, like, pissing me offconstantly, so I get what

(54:01):
Rachel's say in this episode. She pissed me off so bad The
lies is pointless. I've been saying from the
beginning that Negan would have helped her knowing the absolute
truth from the beginning. But can she rely on that?
Does she think she can rely on that?
Because what's at stake is her child's life, basically.
So can she put her trust in Negan enough to trust that he
would go along with this? That's fair.

(54:22):
In his detriment because as far as he knows that they want to
kill him and torture him. So I mean, I get what you and.
Are saying, but I can see that she's she's just trying to
navigate this too. This is not something she's used
to having to deal with. Nobody.
I mean, should she's just stumbling her way through, just
like every, just like anybody else would.
Yeah, I I have the most sympathyfor Maggie, though.

(54:43):
At the end of the day, honestly,it's like you're watching
someone drown and she's using Negan as a life preserver,
eventually tossing it back into the seat essentially.
So if you want to boil down, thepremise is that instead of using
the thing, taking it on board, letting somebody else have it,
she takes the Ponte. Doing tosses it back in cease
and nobody could use it. If you look at it, it's kind of
the opposite of what Michonne does when it comes to Virgil.

(55:04):
She gets kidnapped, she gets drugged.
Virgil makes her go through thisexperience, which, I mean, what
Virgil was saying was, oh, I wastrying to give you a gift, but
at the end of the day, it was a nightmare.
But it taught her a lesson at the end of the day, he she says
to him, as long as you draw breath, you can do good in this
world. And that's why she said it's the
same premise as Negan in a sense, like you're useful in as
much as that you're in prison, but at least you're useful in

(55:25):
that regard. This is what we do.
We're a just society. And so the opposite with
Maggie's true here. I'm not only gonna use you, I'm
gonna throw you away. So you can't do good for anybody
else. Let's say I'm gonna end this
now. So it's just it's a very
interesting way to see that situation too.
I wasn't a huge magnet throughout the main series.
I didn't dislike her. She was just one of those
middle, middle of the road characters for me.

(55:46):
She did things that I liked and that was cool.
But when she came back and and see, especially in actor on and
throughout those episodes from actor on on Man, I was totally
more invested in Maggie than I wasn't.
By the way, we I should correct the.
Her She came back in 1016 to save, right?
Right. Right now.
What was it about her in season 11 that really got you about
her? She's it's just her independence

(56:07):
and her badassery, especially, like you said, taking out the
Reapers and all that shit like that was awesome.
It was a tough road to for that.Like she just just spanked bang,
bang, boom, we're done. You know?
That was it was great. Hole in her whole. 11A Not have
to die, but she just does not want to listen to anything and
they died. Why?
Who does that sound like? Rick, maybe?

(56:30):
Yeah, yeah. And you know what?
That's fine. That's fine.
Let me let me read some comments, though.
In the meantime, Shauna says Glenn needed a wife that could
remind him how important he was talking about him being
volunteer for every dangerous job.
MMM, yeah. I hate how Maggie feels held to
a higher standard. Agree, actually.
So I say I like the above in thechat.
No, I I can't agree to Kira about being a nice person.

(56:50):
I think no. It was way before that.
Rachel Lamaster says Negan has kept Herschel saved before.
Yeah, it's true. And Herschel did not like it,
that he had to like it. Shana says Maggie's not my
favorite by any stretch of the imagination, but she was needed.
And we have to have neutral people who are there to do for
others though to their cells, because in this scenario it's
realistic. This is, I think I felt sorry
for her also. I think he deserves whatever he

(57:11):
gets. Are you talking about Negan?
Oh wow, Shana says. I think the problem with
Maggie's her straddling independence versus selfishness.
I think to her it might be both.I wanted to talk about what
Maggie must have seen when it came to finally look at the
looking at the Statue of Libertytoo, after, her son says.
He doesn't feel seen like what was all this for.
Cuz I always see Saw Maggie is more of like a Liberator, also

(57:33):
someone who could lead people toa better, more promising future,
maybe something that Glenn maybegave her also or had shown her
overtime that she could be. And so when she's looking at the
Statue of Liberty, I was thinking of what it says on
there. And it's a small bit of what's
in Emma Lazarus's poem. You know, give me your tired.
You're poor when you think aboutit.
She's looking at the Statue of Liberty, some illusions that
Megan had said earlier about going there and having that as a

(57:55):
souvenir. And I keep thinking to myself,
she's looking at that stature. She's looking at the remnants of
the kind of person she wanted tobe, the kind of person that
Herschel says she is strayed farfrom.
And at some point you kept trying to hold on to everything
that you had. And what he said exactly says is
something like she says this to him at the end, she says, I
tried so hard to hold on to whatever I had, I didn't really

(58:17):
sort of appreciate it well whileI had it, because people die.
We can't stop that. But while they're alive, we can
try to thrive. I know she's been going from 1
tragedy to to the next, but at the same time.
You let your tragedies define who you are.
Does that make sense? You let your tragedy define who
you ended up becoming rather than in spite of your tragedies
becoming who you wanted to be, who Glenn maybe showed you the

(58:40):
person that you could be or who you were for at least a time
until Negan was taken out of hiscell and you left the show.
Lauren Cohen. When we watched the episode, she
was saying about the world takenfrom her, Bridget said.
She was talking about also before the apocalypse, but after
the apocalypse, the world took from everybody and.
Oh, right. Something we'd said like, oh,
people die. Get over it.

(59:01):
Right. Right and.
It was when we were talking about Crazy Rick.
After Laurie died, it's like, hello Rick.
Everybody's lost somebody. Yeah, Carol didn't go crazy when
she lost her daughter and her husband.
As crazy as you did. Well, well, there's a difference
between somebody and everybody too.
And that's that's a lot for somebody.
Well I tell you, I mean after after re watching Game of
Thrones here lately, I see a lotof parallels between Maggie and

(59:23):
Daenerys. Really.
Yeah, self-made, right? Somebody who was self-made, who
tried to charter her own. Someone who's trying to be a
leader but loses everybody. She has everybody she knows,
everybody who cares about her orshe trusts.
Except for one child. She has one child left.
So, I mean, I see a lot of parallels there.
Wow. Maggie Targaryen.
OK, so Shauna says no. She turns straight, selfish.

(59:45):
She said she only cared about Glenn Herschel's senior, Beth
and Herschel Jr. There have been so many people
that have been there for her help to protect her truly care.
But only those people mattered. Knowing others still alive.
I think you can't name all the people you love, but I mean
think. It's important to at least
mention the people who you know or who are you're actually your
actual family too. But I I take your point.
I mean the point still stands like she still is being selfish.

(01:00:08):
She still is living in her tragedy rather than seeing the
big picture. Because Negan says it.
If you would have asked, I wouldhave done it.
I would have done it for you. And if it didn't work, I would
have said I think he you tell meif this is the case.
I think Negan almost says as much as saying this because at
any point in time when he's in the ambulance with the crow at
and even in the bank vault, I felt like he could have taken
the knife from Maggie. And stabbed every motherfucker

(01:00:30):
here, but instead he gingerly, almost as if to illustrate.

(01:00:52):
I loved that particular moment. When she finally sees Herschel
and they're about to do the prisoner exchange, he's the one
who gingerly, kind of like Finchdoes to Dwight in Fear The
Walking Dead. He gingerly takes the knife away
from his neck and puts it down. Stops there.
We're going to get this done, Maggie.
We're going to do this. I think he would have submitted
himself willingly if their plan had not worked, If they had
actually worked on a plan that would have.
Yeah, she was just so I I guess it was the same.
It was like the same thing aftershe saw the.
Not Herschel Walker. And.
And she just had this. She just couldn't.
She was paralyzed. She was paralyzed with relief.
Yeah. And she just couldn't function.
And he had to do it for her. And I really loved.
I loved that little touch. Good night, Thomas.
Such a. Thank you for coming, Thomas.

(01:01:13):
Oh, Thomas is OK. I'm out.
Peace out. Yay, Maggie.
Yay, Negan. Final thought.
What happens now that there is no piggy to go wee, wee, wee all
the way home? Well, interesting question.
Too bad you're not gonna be hereto find out.
Maybe you'll watch. Maybe you won't.
Who cares? Thomas, thank you so much for
being here always. Really.
I was thinking about Rachel pinpointing Maggie's parenting.
I feel like possibly she could be thinking some of the things I

(01:01:36):
am. I've never thought Maggie was a
bad parent. I actually think she did a great
job at keeping Herschel safe. To me, this is the first
horrible thing to happen for himto be taken from her for
whatever amount of time and whatever happened to him while
he was gone. But her paranoia and anger and
rage and whatever else is going on created this feeling it
within Herschel that he could never be safe with.

(01:01:58):
Her because she never felt safe as long as Negan is out there.
Probably. And it's kind of like learned
behavior, isn't it? Herschel himself feels unsafe.
And even if it's just perceived right, if Maggie's perceiving a
constant threat, that translatesto Herschel and maybe.
And he's basically saying, what else was, what else am I
supposed to think? But when I'm with them, Oh, I
didn't feel like there was a threat.

(01:02:19):
It was you that made me feel that way.
And the second I was away from you, finally, I didn't feel that
threat to springboard off of that we should say that the
scene with Pearly and I'm not sure what to call this woman who
leads the new Babylon Federationat the capital city of New
Babylon. Let's just call her.
Let's just call her Smokey. His president got the cigar

(01:02:39):
going. She's Smokey.
The scene with she and he, She and Pearly pairs very well with
the scene with Negan and and theDhamma.
At the end of the day, yes, bothof them don't want to imbibe.
I don't smoke, I don't drink. I mean, Negan drinks but he
likes gin, but he doesn't doesn't want the Brandy.
He doesn't want the Brandy, justlike Pearly does not want the
smoke. But at the end of the day they
take it anyway. They get along to get on because

(01:02:59):
they are feeling something is inthe wind.
It's not the first time we've compared Pearly to Negan as
well, like what they feel like they have to do.
Well, I loved both of those scenes.
I thought they were both great. This did give me enough.
That I felt good about this as aseason finale.
That was your second thing. Yeah, because with pearly, with
the whole, the new Babylon is Tell me more about this methane.

(01:03:20):
I was like, Oh my God, yeah, this woman is horrible.
Plus, yeah, she threatens his family.
It's not a threat. You can't.
You can't prosecute me. It's not wasn't really
threatening you too. Bad you didn't bring him back.
We could have hung him out as a as a reminder and it.
Was like, oh great, what's gonnahappen when you find out he's
alive and yet? And it pairs well again because
the Dama says What is politics if not performance?

(01:03:41):
And true to form, I mean, hanging him out would have been
a great example of a performanceof our a demonstration of our
just system. But what I like most about that
is that it makes both Sharon D and I write about the intentions
of New Babylon Federation. Which is I was very surprised
that Sherish well, I'd I had said there's no way in hell that
New Babylon Federation wouldn't want to keep expanding keep

(01:04:04):
expanding just because of Trinical disordness.
Moving that aside but Sharon D was right.
There was a resource that New Babylon Federation wanted, and
that was the methane. What resource do they have?
Crumbling buildings and cans of expired tuna.
Right. So I really, I really, really
like that they married these twoconcepts.
Expansion, political power, and look like all things.

(01:04:25):
They still believe in the thing.They still believe in the thing
you don't want me to talk about.But of course, if there's an
interest that makes it that muchsweeter, that makes it there
gives us a reason to do it. So yeah, we're fucking
prognosticators anyway. They've been looking for Negan
to help them basically fight new, right.
So let's talk about that. What I just where do we even
begin with that? But here's my.

(01:04:45):
Question. Because new Babylon is stupid.
Here's why. Here's why there's little truth
about New Babylon. There's a literally dead
everywhere. Just make your own methane, you
idiots. I was just getting ready to say
that why don't they get their own walkers and shove them into
some sewers and create their ownmethane?
It's like not that hard. I don't think it's it's all
about skin unless and bodies. Less It's also about time,

(01:05:08):
because if they've been underground for 12. 12 years
because they said that the army shoved them under there.
So if they've been underground for 12/13/14 years, that's way
more. Well, methane.
And there's so much liquid methane, it's bubbling out of
the storm. Drinks that long, but it's
following our physics. And this is clearly not the same
universe because their physics don't.
I don't think it matters, right?If you really think about it,

(01:05:29):
what she's basically saying is we want it all back.
What Smokey is what she's saying.
We'll call her Smokey. The actress's name is Jasmine
Walker, Thank you Mitchell. And the character doesn't have a
name yet, just new. On later.
OK, so she's smoking. So Smokey, which Smokey wants is
she doesn't care. She wants it back.
She wants central heating. She wants all she wants what we
had before. But.
She wants ice cream. But like, without the illusion

(01:05:52):
of justice. This is the opposite of the of
the Commonwealth. Problem is like instead of the
illusion of safety and you know,maybe the physical walls and
whatever, whatever, all that. But it's if you step out of
line, we're gonna do some stuff,right?
So there's a little bit of a, I don't know if I want to live
here. See, when it was the
Commonwealth, I didn't mind the illusion of safety because it's
kind of like our world. Now, I'm OK with that.
But if I step out of line in NewBabylon Federation in any way

(01:06:16):
that could be perceived as something unlawful where they
write a code up and then they announce their punishment before
they actually do the punishment.And there's no trial.
I don't like that idea. That doesn't seem great to me.
I like to ice cream. I like just give me ice.
Just give me ice cream as a jumping off point.
What do you guys think about? In a weird way, I like that
Negan is there to protect Manhattan, right?

(01:06:37):
From from encroachment. Yeah, maybe it's a Dave lives in
New York thing. I don't know.
I don't know what it is now. Negan takes Manhattan.
Sharon D get on that. But no.
But what do you think about thatLike it's weird that maybe I'm
kind of like, OK, I'm afraid that he's gonna be the old
Negan. But at the same time this seems
wrong like if they do get into Manhattan, what happens next

(01:07:00):
with new Babylon Federation. And what they're even saying was
uh, karate was saying how in thein the ambulance.
She predicted that this would create a clash of civilizations.
And I don't think it's limited. It's something we said in the
last episode. I don't think he's limited to
just new Babble in Federation versus whatever this group is
called, Baratsi, whatnot. I think it's we're talking about
like upstate New York. We're talking about CRM, we're

(01:07:21):
talking about whoever's down South.
We're talking about a lot of civilizations, civilizations
that are emerging. The wagon train itself is a
symbolization of civilizations emerging, Negan sending off
Joshua and Annie. So this could be bigger than
just this. That's season three, basically.
My brain compared this to like him getting out of rehab and
he's been out of rehab for. While and now he's like thrown

(01:07:42):
into a situation of being surrounded by drug addicts and
he's trying to stay off of drugslike somebody who's sober.
Yes. Like she wants him so much to go
back to being that person that we met that killed Glenn and
Abraham. And he's been trying not to be
that person. And I think making good strides
and not being that person. And now I feel like, how is

(01:08:02):
Maggie gonna feel if she does goback for Negan?
And then he is that person. But she put him there.
I get it. I get what you're trying to say.
Yeah. So maybe I shouldn't be rooting
for an even the protector or thesavior.
Like because if Maggie is gonna go back for him, what does that
look? Like the dama is is Martha.
She wants Negan to go back to his old clear self.

(01:08:23):
You right. Yeah.
You're strong. You.
Can be what you would what you used to be.
Wow, wow. You don't need anybody.
Unfortunately, that's not she's not that unhinged.
OK, while we're sitting here, the Croats said.
For a minute I thought I could have Negan and the child.

(01:08:44):
I was thoroughly disgusted. Yep, I told you he's pervy.
Just thoroughly. I was also discussed about the
fact that he called the mommy and daddy.
Yeah. What's wrong with them?
This is like be careful, you maynot get the hate.
Maybe you wanted? I wonder what piece of Negan
she's gonna keep it. A little box with a key.

(01:09:04):
She should hook up with June. They could have a lot of talk
about. It's true digits.
They could exchange exchange digits.
OK, fine. Yeah, OK.
OK. It's a good time.
Bye guys, if you do want, I thank you.
The Croat said. At first I saw you on the
catwalk alone and for a moment Igot excited because I thought,

(01:09:25):
oh, I could have Negan and the child.
But wait, it's rife with me. Meaning, isn't it?
Because don't they have the child?
Just, just kidding. I don't have.
He's enough. Just kidding, right?
But maybe that's been part of the Damas end game too, That
maybe the child that she wants Herschel.
She wants Herschel as a kid. So that's that's what I was

(01:09:45):
thinking as well. I did make a little note just
about how amazing the rundown New York City look.
I love those shots when they just give us those city shots of
everything looking so crappy. Also, I put WTF is on the Crow
at's Head Laughing crime. Crying, laughing.
Crying the thing that we saw in the last episode.
Yeah, goodness. I think the only thing I wanted

(01:10:05):
to mention was Mozart's Die Zalber float, which is the Magic
Flute. Did you catch that charity as
Negan and the Karate are entering the dominant?
You can play my Magic Flute. That's all I could think of.
Yes, the story of the Magic Flute, I'm gonna break it down
really quickly, is Tamina was a Prince lost in a foreign land,
pursued by a monster. 3 ladies servants of the Night Queen.

(01:10:27):
Rescue him, kill the monster, and leave with a photo of
Pamina, the daughter of the queen of the knight whom he
falls in love with. She's been captured by Sarastro,
priest of the Sun, and he wants to rescue her.
Gifted with a magic flute bells and a reluctant bird catcher,
Papa Gino. He quests, though nothing is as
it appears because it's the queen of the Knight who is evil,
not Sarastro. And Sarastra was sheltering

(01:10:47):
Pamino from her mother's clutches.
He is given trials to prove his love for Pamina by Sarastro.
He completes the trials, but theQueen of the Night arrives to
destroy the temple. The Sun Temple.
She's the Queen of the Night. Sarastro arrives in time to cast
them out, and a new dawn shines on our united heroes.
So isn't that the story of Dead City?
In a sense, too? I don't know what it all means
in terms of specifically with some of our characters, but what

(01:11:08):
the Night Queen is Maggie the Queen to them?
What I heard was that Negan's gonna be given Maggie his magic
flute. Where's the eject button?
Where's the eject button? I can't find you.
Shouldn't quit while you were ahead.
That's what she said. This was a knight who had an
original mission that was deceived by the Night Queen.

(01:11:29):
The queen of the Night, who was Maggie.
And he thought it was supposed to be about one thing, but it
turned out to be not about another thing.
At least the one constant was Pamina.
And if that's Ginny, that's fine, but I don't think it's
about that. But I think it's about it's was
loving someone or her, right? OK.
Or Herschel, right? Right.
So the Croat and the dhama are gonna protect Herschel from the
evil clutches of night. So that may be a question that

(01:11:50):
we should ask. And that's, Do you think Maggie
might be having a turning point?Meaning, does she turn out to be
somebody that might as opposed to hating her by the end of the
series? Do you think she might turn it
around or to the Magic flute? Does she end up going full bore
finishing the job? Burying Amos is harmonica.
That be the the poetic twist that remember UH takes a monster

(01:12:10):
to make a monster. So what if Megan is making her
the monster to the domest point to write someone's talents born
out of psychosis? He That would be the big You
know what I kept thinking throughout the series about
Madison and how they originally wanted her to be at the bag guy.
And so wouldn't it be something if they stole, stole, borrowed,
was inspired by that idea or plot point?

(01:12:30):
And at the end of it all, she becomes, I don't like it at all
because some of us have said on the series, on this episode,
really even that I don't think she's a bad person.
I think she can be aggressive. I think she knows what she wants
and she will try to get it. She is smart too.
But I think what I've discoveredfrom this episode was that she's
allowed her tragedy to define her.
She had a point in time where she could rise above it, but I

(01:12:51):
think at some point just got away from her.
Two things I. Down the first one is that the
Croat think he understands what happened between him and Negan,
but he still does not understandwhat happened.
He's thinking that it all came to a head because he disobeyed
Negan's orders. In my opinion, it all came to a
head because he's the type of person that would torture and
kill a 16 year old girl. Not the disobeying of the

(01:13:14):
orders, but just the type of person he is at his core.
Negan didn't really want that around him and he doesn't want
that type of person to exist. It's like Rapey Davey, Right.
We see then example that I, you know what?
Yeah. Because at first I was kind of
like, oh, you know, of course, yeah, you're right.
It's because I disobeyed us. And he did, Right.
But he does say, and I I often, I think just because of the

(01:13:36):
drama between the dhama and he and the Croat, there's a part of
me that thinks that if Negan is smart, he could recruit the
Croat in such a way to topple the dhama.
But I think also though, becausethe part of me is sympathetic to
the Croat in this weird kind of way, but I think the Dhama is
wise beyond what she seems. She has to treat him this way.
There's this huge difference between Negan and the dhama, and

(01:13:57):
that Negan doesn't want somebodylike that on this earth.
Whereas the dhama says, well, even they're a little useful as
long as you know how to channel that.
It's the difference between, OK,I can't go that far and pure
evil. And so she has to treat the crow
at this way because if she doesn't, he will continue down
this path of being more horrible.
And I, which is something that we've said, if unchecked, he'll

(01:14:18):
keep doing more and more heinousthings and evolve and instead of
killing the kids, he'll brainwash them and use them as
God, as ninjas behind the scenes.
Maybe Herschel, I don't know. He's drawing all those photos.
He's enthralled with the dhama so she has to treat him this way
and not as a partner either because, well, when left
unchecked, he'll feel like he. Can I feel they have power,
Herschel, They have a mole now because I feel like the Dhama

(01:14:40):
knows that she she had an effecton Herschel and we had lots of
talks. We talked for quite a bit.
So I'm thinking that now they have perfect mole inside bricks,
and that's Herschel and the perfect pawn for Negan too.
Simultaneously, she can't tell him that Herschel's the mole,
right? But she can tell him that I'll
just take more and more pieces of him.
So. And she said he only talked once

(01:15:00):
She got him nice and comfortable, right?
Exactly. I said the right words.
I made him feel safe enough. Safe, yeah, When he felt safe to
say. The last thing I wrote was that
I'm just noticing, like Simon, even Sherry and Dwight to a
certain point. Now the Crow at Negan put all
this energy and turns these people into what they think are

(01:15:23):
better versions. To themselves.
He pulled pro at out of an emotional hole that he probably
thought he would never come out of.
And he took him into this situation where he felt like he
was absolutely nothing. And Negan handed him his most
prized possession and allowed him to use it to his advantage,
to show him that he still had power in him.
You know, he's just doing all this stuff for these people.

(01:15:45):
And I'm like if he would have just put any of that energy in a
different direction or in a different individual.
Like, if we found the right people first, basically.
Yeah, yeah, Like, was it? Judith says to Gamma.
Right, Mary? Yeah, but isn't that
interesting? Think about Negan and how he's a
gym teacher or an educator to begin with.
You still have to do the things.You still have to get whatever,

(01:16:07):
anyway, schooling, whatnot. And to learn how to deal with
kids into whatever you have to do as an educator to turn even
the roughest kid around, let's say whatever problems they have
at home that they have to that they end up bringing into
school, He tries to see the bestin people, let's say.
And maybe he's giving them more credit than they deserve.
Nerve, like you said in a sense.Right.
He's giving these awful, awful or people born out of trauma the

(01:16:29):
tools that they can, like an educator does, The tools that
they need to survive in this world and maybe even be a
productive member in society. Something that teachers often
say in the classroom. We're trying to get you to be a
productive member of society. But yeah, he can't help himself,
though. He can't help himself from
trying to do it. I kind of it's kind of a weird
when the crowd was talking aboutthat, there was, it was kind of
touching in a way because he is framing it in the way he saw it

(01:16:50):
too, which is kind of gross anyway.
But. But there was something about
what Negan was trying to do withall these people.
He's trying to give them purposeor that you can have control
over your destiny, in a sense. And I can teach you to be kind
of like the dhama does for Hershel.
I can teach you to feel like you.
You can be safe. And so I I do.
I like what you just said. Does she want Negan to lead, or

(01:17:11):
does she want Negan to be the face behind her?
Twisted decision. That's a good question.
I think it's pretty clear she wants Megan to be subservient to
her, but she knows all these stories about how he's he knows
how to handle people and how to put people in their.
Place. I think what she wants is for
him to put his tactics into effect, to follow through with
her orders, what she wants done.But she wants his tactics to do

(01:17:32):
it right. I mean, if you follow the
Hilltop formula, something we touch on every now and again we
mentioned in this episode, whichis the smart thing to do, would
be to hire your second in command.
And they get to do all the things and you get the credit
like Jesus did for Maggie, like Tara did for Jesus after her.
Yeah. Wouldn't it be something if you
could just sit back and watch all your chess pieces just play

(01:17:53):
for you and you could just sit, buy and take all the credit?
What? She wants to do is block out the
seat and have them acted outlet's go with either
analogies. Very well done, very good
analogy. She is a producer.
She's the director and he. Well, no, she's the producer.
She's behind the. Strike Strike.
So Negan just has the for me. It's the Nat.

(01:18:14):
Let's say it's the nag after, the nag after, strike after, and
he's the director, yeah, And he directs all the players
essentially. That's an awesome analogy, he
said. So we'll do OK, so let's close
up the thing. So the only thing I wanted to

(01:18:35):
actually read was Emma Lazarus'shome.
It's a very short poem. Some of it is written on the
Statue of Liberty itself, so it's called the New Colossus.
In this colossus in New York City called the Statue of
Liberty, Lady Liberty, not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
with conquering limbs astride from land to land.
Here at our sea washed sunset gates shall stand a mighty woman
with a torch whose flame is the imprisoned lightning in her

(01:18:58):
name. Mother of exiles from her beacon
hand glows worldwide welcome Hermild eyes command the air
bridged. Harbor that Twin Cities frame
quote keep ancient lands your storied pomp prize she with
silent lips. Give me your tired, your poor.
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free.
The wretched rough use of your teeming shore.
Send these the homeless Tempest tossed to me.

(01:19:19):
I lift my lamp beside the goldendoor.
This is me. Kind of like saying this is how
Maggie could have been. This is what she could have
been. But she let tragedy define her.
And I I just. It just hit me once when she was
seeing a lady of Liberty still standing.
But we're a little worse for forwhere, which is a good sign.
She's still standing. She still can turn it all
around. I think that's a good way of

(01:19:41):
looking at Maggie going forward.Now she can make even worse
decisions. But I think we're tired of that.
We're all tired of that. Like as much as maybe a person
might not like Maggie. She already does the you know,
give me your tired rapport and your huddled masses hearing to
breathe free. She already does that part with
Jenny, and I mean well. Yeah, whoever is there.
I'm sure they take people at all.
Time and never doubted that she.Would take care of Jenny.

(01:20:02):
I never doubted that if Tomaso and Amaya survived, even with
his lies, she still would have allowed him to come to the
bricks, I believe. She didn't kill him.
She saved Jenny, right. Over and over again.
Yeah, I don't think at all that she's a bad person.
I just don't think she's a nice person.
And to me there's a huge. Yeah, but how easy is it to be
super nice in the apocalypse? Most of our people aren't nice.

(01:20:23):
You really get down to it. And.
Most nice people like, maybe even like you can see the crowd
is a nice person. Maybe, I don't know.
But he's not a good guy. I mean John Dory, the only truly
nice person in nice person universe.
And look how well it worked out for him.
Not a good use case. Sorry.
Like Madison's Not a nice person.

(01:20:44):
Strands Not a nice person. But the truth is, you truly
cannot be a wholly nice person in the apocalypse.
It's just not possible because you have.
You have to fight all the time for what you're getting.
It's just not gonna happen. Which was that was Shane's whole
point at the beginning, right? Rick, this isn't the same world.
You can't be the same. Person where?
Before It's not gonna work. Yeah, I do believe there was one
more genuinely nice person, two more two more genuinely nice

(01:21:08):
people in Apocalypse, Reg and No.
Go ahead, say, probably say. Didn't survive.
Yeah, I was. I was gonna say they just gonna
say Glenn. But you know, actually Glenn
killed motherfuckers too. So.
I mean, I wouldn't argue that hehe he's a nice part.
He was a nice person, but that'snot everything.
And he didn't survive. I mean that who does?
These aren't nice. Guys finish last.

(01:21:28):
Finish last laugh and. Form If you like what you heard
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(01:21:50):
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(01:22:11):
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(01:22:32):
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And among those perks are the survivors and whispers.
Tears who get at least this and that is shoutouts at the end of

(01:22:53):
every episode, starting with ourSurvivors tier members, one of
whom is here with us right now is.
Sakira and You can get to her atkochefi.com Connie Dixon for
Life. That's Connie Dixon the number
for LYFE at Alisa Jones 71 on Instagram or at Jones AJ6 on
Twitter. You can also follow her at
Relishing the Dead. Mostly I would recommend this.

(01:23:14):
If you have it, head to the Relishing the Dead Facebook
group over the page because there's a lot more interactions
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She can't go live yet with she and the rest of the ladies of
Relishing the Dead on YouTube just yet, but you should
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enabling all notifications on our YouTube channel anyway so
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(01:23:35):
ko-fi.com/fanart Lindy and of course at Real Ryan GM on
Twitter. Next up are the whispers to your
members who are at Judith dot Morn on Instagram.
Aiden Atkin. You can reach at ko-fi.com/aiden
Atkin at Tyler Phillip Cox on both Instagram and Twitter, and
of course sandy dot D dot Morrison on Facebook.
Thank you so much for making it.Now I don't know how this is

(01:23:55):
gonna get delivered to you. This makes my job that much more
hard. But.
Thank you for joining us on the chat tonight.
Thank you for if you get this part of the episode for
listening to the rest of it. Of course, the audio podcast
isn't getting all of this. And thank you for listening to
our coverage of The Walking Dead, Dead City's first season.
Can't wait to breakdown the second season?
Can you take your on journey? So excited it's.

(01:24:16):
Pretty exciting. I can't wait.
I can't believe I have to wait. Remember to follow that guy.
I know. That that.
Really got my attention. Like what?
Frey in 814 Hopefully he follows, but anyway, take care
everybody have a good one and wehope to see you very soon for
the Daryl Dixon TWD Daryl Dixon Spin Off series.

(01:24:40):
In the meantime, join us and if you're a Whispers and Survivor
Steer members you will get dibs playing with us jackbox games.
But in the meantime, Sharon D and I are going on vacation.
You'll be back about? I will be back on the 12th.
I'm going to Florida for a week or to visit my family, but I'm
also taking a detour to Savannahand I'm going to go to Spear
Foundations and check it out. And hopefully we'll have some

(01:25:02):
cool stuff for you to check out.Yeah, yeah.
And I will be going to Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia and
Helsinki, Finland. For 10 days.
So that's going to be something that we did together.
And I'll be gone from Tuesday toI think it's before my mother's
birthday, so April 6th, so. April 6th?
That's like a year, Dave. Sorry, August 6th.

(01:25:24):
I'll be there for a year. I'll be, I'll be, I'll be on
location from another box in another country in a probably
better time zone for everybody. So anyways, thank you so much
for being here and we'll see youvery soon.
Undoubtedly. Take care.
Have a good night. We love you.
I'm a.

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