The Walking Dead: Dead City |2x03 "Why Did The Mainlanders Cross the River?"

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Tornado just ripped through partof Kentucky and killed some
people last. Night.
Oh my gosh. The only thing that woke me up
was the warning. My phone was screaming like
about a tornado. I was like slept through the
whole thing. It let it take me.
I was that kid that would move everything in my bedroom down to

(00:20):
the basement when there was a tornado warning on.
TV. We went outside.
Yeah, Say barefoot. Yeah.
Say such a privileged life. Mama, it sounds like a train.
Why are all those trees bending over like that?
It was the thrill of a lifetime.We are squawking Dead podcast
pulverizing programs beyond The Walking Dead universe and

(00:42):
sometimes in The Walking Dead universe.
Sometimes you bring a new. We are squawking dead or podcast

(01:10):
pulverizing programs beyond The Walking Dead universe.
Sometimes they give you news, Sometimes we make you laugh.
Most times we go deep. I'm your host, David Cammio, and
I'm joined by. As well Mom 09 me.
Lazy Gardner. And Bridget, you can find me at
youtube.com, slash at Punky Brewster.
That's PUNKYBRUISETER. Today, we're here to talk to you

(01:32):
about The Walking Dead Dead CD'sthird episode of its second
season, titled Why Did the Mainlanders Cross the River?
First of all, I'm glad to be here with all of you, and then
also all of you down there. Thank you for being here, all of
you. Second of all, we have a bit of
housekeeping to do. Obviously.
We have some merch in the merch store, and I've also considered

(01:53):
an idea in my head of how I wantthe Season 2 merch to go.
I don't know how it's going to go, if it's going to go at all,
if I can make time for it at all.
But before I get into that, lookat the merch on the screen.
It's obviously on the screen. And to get to that merch, you
can get to the links in the description of the YouTube video
or head to squawkingdead.com. Choose the main menu on the top
left and to choose buy merch. Second thing is we did it an

(02:15):
interview last Friday. Today is we May 18th.
Well, it's the collective we, you know, it's we as an
institution. You did it.
I did it. Well, I did it.
We had an in person interview. I had it.
I had interviewed Logan Schmucker, who plays Victor on
The Walking Dead, Dead City, whocame into our lives in the first
episode and exited in the secondepisode.

(02:37):
I thought it was a great idea tohave him over because he was in
New York City at the time and hewas more than accommodating.
He was pretty great of him to doand we had a really lovely chat.
It's available now. Meantime, if you want the uncut
version, which you may want because there are things even in
the unedited that I had to take out, which gives you an
indicator of how good the unedited interview recording is.

(02:59):
You can get to thatviako-fi.com/walkingdead or
patreon.com/walkingdead and I hope you enjoy it.
It's pretty great. I had tried to remember the last
few episodes that Adam Suzhitsky, who did the director
of photography from Fear The Walking Dead Season 4 onward, is
now doing director photography for The Walking Dead Dead City.

(03:20):
So if you're wondering about thecolor palette and the
differences between them and thesignificance of the color
palette in the cinematography, that's Adam Sushitsky.
He is often paired with Michael Satcherzemus, who is now
executive producer of The Walking Dead, Dead City, and he
remembered his friends. So I think it's great.
And one more little tidbit aboutthat, he happens to be the

(03:41):
director of photography for alsoone of our shows that we like to
watch, which is Yellowstone, by the way, in case you didn't
know. I didn't know that A.
Level deeper. I may have mentioned in the past
that I had cried watching the Hulu original movie 11/22/63.
This is about the JFK assassination, but like in like
a sci-fi way, somebody goes backin time to save JFK or like the

(04:03):
events that transpired in that time period.
Stephen King book. It was a Stephen King book.
Correct. Starring J.
Wasn't that a series? Yes.
Oh yeah. It was a series, not a movie.
It's starring James Franco. Franco, right?
That's right. And he did the direct of
photography there too. So I thought that was kind of
cool too. A little bit of extra
information you didn't need to know or want to know, but I
wanted to know and I want to share with all of you.

(04:24):
We're better for knowing. Right, second thing on my list,
because I did organize it in priority is the thing that we
meant to talk about for a coupleepisodes now and it is TWD
University. This was a conversation before
our last live episode of The Last of Us, and we were going to
talk about it then, but like, just stop, you know what I mean?
Like just stop it. Stop talking about Walking Dead

(04:45):
during The Last of Us. I just wish that I could have a
college degree that's meaningless.
Oh wait, I already do. And so even less meaningful than
the one I have. I'm sorry.
The three I have I looked into. Could you take a course on The
Walking Dead? Because I know I would ace a
college course on The Walking Dead.
Hypothetically speaking. Anyway, there was 1.

(05:08):
It was free and it was called Society Science Survival Lessons
from AMC's The Walking Dead. It was available at University
of California, Irvine and it wasfree.
The release date was from October 14th, 2013 to December
20th, 2013. It was an 8 week free massive
open online course on Zombie survival created by AMC in

(05:31):
Structure and the University of California, Irvine.
This little description from thewebsite.
From Understanding social identities to modeling the
spread of disease, this eight week course will span key
science and survival themes. Using AMC as The Walking Dead as
its basis. 4 faculty members from the University of
California Irvine will take you on an interdisciplinary academic

(05:52):
journey deep into the world of AMC's.
The Walking Dead course was taught by esteemed members of UC
Irvine facility on in structuresplatform that was there like tie
in for it that AMC license theirrights to for the content,
access to cast members for interviews and advice on weekly
themes about TV series which is pretty cool.

(06:13):
Course covers everything from the interdisciplinary factors
behind the spread of infectious disease to post apocalyptic
nutrition. Focused on social sciences,
physics, astronomy, public health, and mathematics, Each
professor combines their knowledge with what would really
happen in an apocalyptic setting.
This class tackled real life scenarios that included lessons
on Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. Which is Maslow.

(06:37):
Social order and structure and public health and the CDC and
many other topics. Each class took place the Monday
after and a Walking Dead episodewould air and included
discussion of that episode as well.
The course attracted more than 65,000 users from around the
world. Yeah, this is Season 3 era.
So it's like we're not at our peak yet, but we're like, well,

(06:59):
on our way. So the staff from UC Irvine that
was included was Zuzana Bick whois in public health, Joanne
Christophe person from social sciences, Michael dennen from
physics, and Sarah eicorn from mathematics.
The program included describing how infectious diseases like a
zombie epidemic spread and are managed apply various models of

(07:21):
society and Maslow I feel like it's Maslov but maybe I'm wrong.
Maslow's hierarchy of needs to existing and emerging societies
as a means for understanding human behavior.
Analyze existing social roles and stereotypes as they exist
today and in an emerging world. Debate the role of public health
organizations in society becauseyou no longer have them.
Describe how mathematical equations for population

(07:41):
dynamics can be used to study disease spread and
interventions, and apply concepts of energy and momentum
appropriately when analyzing collisions and other activities
that either inflict or prevent damage.
Summarize multiple methods for managing stress and disaster
situations. Who has time for that last one?
I mean, we don't even do it wellnow, but you saw and you saw

(08:02):
what COVID turned out for us. But anyway, it was a fun thing
that was available and is no longer available, But how cool.
What innovative promotion? That's what I This is why,
because we were talking about wild.
Marketing. OK, OK, that's what it was.
Next bit of housekeeping was a Collider article that came

(08:22):
across my desk from Deanna Marieon X.
I'll put her name. Yeah, we printed it off and slid
it physically across Dave's desk.
That's right. So he could feel like he was.
You mailed it in and then I opened the envelope and then I
saw, oh, thanks, Bridget, You mailed me the thing so I could
slide it across my desk. Anyway, it's a Collider article

(08:43):
about basically Negan's got to go.
Essentially boils down to Negan's storyline is tired, he's
old, he's tired, blah, blah, blah.
Basically not getting the point is that that's the point.
I read the article and my overall impression of it.
Let me just give you the rundown.
The title is it's time for The Walking Dead universe to move on
from Megan. The author is Sean Van Horn.

(09:04):
I say this not so that you can stalk and call him out and dox
him or what do whatever. Be respectful because in his
article he was pretty respectful.
He went into the lore, explainedhis love for The Walking Dead
and the characters within it. It boils down to why keep this
guy alive if he's going to be sotired and boring?
What is his role in The Walking Dead universe anymore?

(09:25):
Negan was this and what the point of introducing him in the
series was, et cetera, et cetera.
Let me give you a choice quote. There is no reason why Maggie
Negan should ever be hanging outwith each other, which is the
exact reason why this spinoffs premise is so great.
She has every reason to hate theman who not only took the love
of her life but left her alone with their unborn son.
She does loathe the man, but because she wants to keep her
own sanity, believe in a better way, she won't kill Negan while

(09:47):
she was trying to. OK, regardless, these two aren't
friends and never will be. But Negan is trying hard to make
up for what he's done and Maggiecomes to at least tolerate that
he will be part of her life. And here's the third title.
Negan has become boring. The Walking Dead.
Dead City Season 2 First episodeof season 2 of Dead City has
Maggie and Herschel together in their community, only for Maggie
to be forced to return the Bay apple by the new Babylon

(10:08):
leadership. That already feels forced
enough, but worse is what happens to Negan.
He is now jailed by the Dama andthe Croat, with their former
wanting Negan to be her spokesman of sorts to rally the
other NYC factions to fight New Babylon.
He is beyond tired now, but the Dhamma wants to see the old
Negan put on a show and ruled byfear.
The Kroat even brings him a gift, showing Megan a new
version of Lucille which now hasthe ability to electrocute its

(10:30):
victims. Being always intolerant of Bull
S says no until the Dhamma hintsthat those he loves will be in
danger unless he cooperates. Now here's where we get into it.
OK, so he's given the speech to the New York groups, but genuine
but genuine fury and sinister energy he once had isn't there.
Instead he he's going through the motions, looking bored out
of his mind. The smile and cockiness are
gone, replaced by the older man who Mumbles and moves so slowly

(10:51):
and even what's his name comments on this Christos skinny
old ass man. Negan is neutered, having
shifted from over the top, sad and lifeless.
He's barely even a parody of hisformer self as he tries to do
what he's told. On top of that it doesn't look
like he'll be around Maggie much, So what is left for him to
do? The original premise was it was
exciting to see Maggie and Egan together because sparks fly and

(11:13):
they're not supposed to be together.
How great of a premise. It's an understandable way The
Walking Dead doesn't want to kill off such a well known
character, but the time has come.
It feels strange to say this, but Negan has become utterly
boring. This isn't a knock on Jeffrey De
Morgan as an actor, it's the character who shows no life.
The best thing they could do forNegan is give him a fitting end,
sacrificing himself for Maggie rehearsal and bringing his arc
full circle. If Negan makes it through his
story this storyline, a third season of Dead City would likely

(11:36):
give him little to do but look sad and lumber around as if he
was a Walker himself. And isn't that ironic?
His character has long been redeemed and now it's time to
say goodbye. I wanted to know what you guys
thought of this on its face because this really blew up
Twitter. People like saying that nasty
things about Sean and. Negan would have been gone a

(11:56):
long time ago if it wasn't for him having such insane fans.
Sometimes it feels like the fandom is all about JDM and
Norman. Negan probably would have been
gone and or not have a spin off if he wasn't such a big fan
favorite. He is a fan favorite, but I do
want to interject that this is is also the case with comic book

(12:17):
Negan. So this is not specifically JDM,
although he is beloved for his character on television and this
is like probably his standout role.
He's been in a lot of stuff, butthis is the thing people know
him for. But Negan is so popular in the
comics for his liberal use of the F word and you just didn't
mess with him. And his plotline did follow a

(12:39):
lot of those beats throughout the story.
In the show after Kirkman ended the comic book suddenly, I will
remind everyone he told everyonethere was going to be more.
And then he lied abruptly. It was over the one comic book
he's released since then in thisvein.
Is here's Negan? Well, yeah.
And so obviously the events of The Walking Dead Dead Sea are
not in the comic book. But I do understand Sean's

(13:02):
criticism. And isn't that the irony of the
show is that the Croat wants himto be old Negan.
The audience, some of the audience not all wants them to
be old Megan. A strong contingent, or loud at
least contingent on the other side, want him to die because he
Negan. They don't like.
They never like Negan. They want him to go away.

(13:22):
They don't find him charming whatsoever or chewing the
screen. They just as a institution, they
want Megan to die. As much as I hated him, he was
fun to watch. I don't feel like he's that fun
to watch anymore. He's just walking around not
doing anything. He killed the guy in this
episode and then just disappeared.
I think that's for a reason. Right now, Negan is a part of

(13:44):
this group that he clearly doesn't want to be a part of,
but he also has to force himselfto survive among these people
because if they think he's not with them, then he's against
them. And there's a lot more people
there that, you know, could killhim if he's not on their side.
So I think we're seeing a side of Negan that's forced to
survive. He's forced to be doing, doing

(14:06):
something and acting a certain way that he's he doesn't like
either. I don't think Negan likes what's
going on right now. And we're seeing a lot of that.
You're right, he's not fun to watch right now.
But I think that's by design. We're supposed to see it almost
a depression right now. I hope it doesn't last the whole
season. I'm hoping now that he's broken
away. He talked his way into breaking

(14:29):
away from everybody by going into Central Park to look for
whoever is still alive or whatever.
And hopefully this can be sort of, you know, sort of his
breakaway. Obviously that's not the case
because I unfortunately saw a few seconds of.
The next episode. Yeah, What's the combat?
Well. He ended up coming back to the
Crow but anyway, so it's like, but I think that's the point.

(14:50):
Well, and maybe he thinks it's the only way he can essentially
protect. Herschel, I mean, I almost feel
like when he was alone with the Dhamma and the Croat in the last
episode, why didn't he just takethem out then?
There was no other people in there with him.
It's like he has no drive anymore.

(15:11):
Like you said, he's just trying to survive.
But there was a time when he would have just taken both of
them out and got and left. He decided to hang around
instead. But how's he getting out?
Yeah, and where's his family? That's the whole other they.
Are holding his family over. Somewhere, we don't know if
they're on their way or whatever.
If it's even true. I didn't want to say it does
kind of remind me of when Negan came into the picture.

(15:31):
Who was the most boring to watch?
Or, and I wouldn't say boring, but it's like watching a
neutered Rick. Remember in Season 9 when he
escaped and then he decided to come back because he couldn't
hack it out there? I feel like that's where he's at
now. He had Judith the playoff of
there, which made it really fun,but he's not doing that now.
I was going to say to Rachele Point this like depressed, worn

(15:55):
down, broken down version of himthat we're seeing who's fearful
that his family is going to be hurt or worse killed.
Reminds me a lot of Negan in thecell.
That was not the fun Negan that we were used to.
When I say fun, I'm talking about, like, the rhetoric.
Not Yeah, I know. Don't get it twisted.
No, I mean he's mad about it. Just because you don't like that

(16:17):
he's killing, it's still fun to watch.
It makes him entertaining. Yeah, exactly.
Right. Humor in a broken world.
But yeah. And why I compare it to Rick is
because for the longest time we no matter what you felt about
Rick in any given moment, he wasstill kind of the focal point of
the show. It's until at some point they
defrayed it a bit and then of course, he left the show all
together. They kind of prepped for that a

(16:37):
little bit before he left from the top of Season 8, I think it
was that they had mentioned thathe would leave the show.
In hindsight, obviously we foundthis out, you know, when all the
Season 9 news was breaking and that he would leave the show in
five episodes and blah, blah. And you find out, oh, they had
conversations about it way out of Season 8 production.
But isn't that like the show to the show itself?
On top of the audience wanting to see that type of Negan and

(17:00):
the other half of the audience not wanting to see that Negan
ever again, There's the old whole idea of the theme of the
show, which is the old interfacing with the new and
possibly making something newer or innovative or getting rid of
the old altogether. Isn't bringing Negan into this
equation somewhat the same? And then you have these people
that are trying to do something new and yet they're using for

(17:22):
their mimic the Saviors in a wayor Negan structure in a way,
just one, all the other stuff and where the differences lie.
There's nothing original. And yet they're trying to do
something very original, but it's not working out.
I think we all like what we're seeing anyway.
I only bring this up to kind of a say.
Everybody's entitled to their opinion.

(17:44):
Sean doesn't deserve hate. It's a valid criticism of the
show of people who have loved itsince whenever.
You'd have to be completely ignorant to not know that The
Walking Dead has lost popularity.
Well, this is part of a bigger conversation though, too.
I guarantee the hate that's received is because of this
whole warring factions against whose show is doing better,

(18:04):
which is ridiculous and stupid, and we've talked about it
before. Yeah, it's because people come
out so hot when someone has an opinion that differs from theirs
in terms of like is the show good or or not?
It's just not worth these large arguments.
Is not worth personal criticism against a writer.
It's stupid. That's dumb.
He has a right to an opinion. You started off really well by
saying it's a part of a larger conversation.

(18:26):
I don't think this is all about like the the minutiae silos it
of not great numbers. By the way, he's a very loud
small pockets of individuals wholike to bang on drums.
I think he wrote this about the larger Walking Dead universe
because this is a bigger publication.
This is not like a niche. I'm a ranter on Twitter.
But I'm just saying that's why you're getting all of those

(18:47):
rants on Twitter is because that's what's happening on
Twitter right now. I see.
Yeah. I think it's also greater
commentary on The Walking Dead. The greater trend with anything
is that once something starts towane in popularity, you kind of
want to watch the building fall down.
And I think that's a little bit present in this article is that
you're not willing to see what blooms or what can come out of
this or come out of this Negan how he can.

(19:08):
Change people being exactly whatthe dama is trying to fight
against. No, I want it to be the way that
it was. But it can't be.
OK, well if you burn it down, itcould be something new.
Or even, you know what, to Bridget, to your point, I want
it to be like it was, but in theabsence of that, burn it all
down. Yeah, basically.
Rather than recycle, reuse like you we would in the apocalypse,

(19:28):
let's find a found thing and make something out of it.
Let's do something more beautiful and more meaningful.
Let's give this character more of a fullness that you didn't
think he could have before. Which is what we said about The
Walking Dead. Daryl Dixon, Carol and Daryl.
How they have a fuller characterdevelopment because of these new
spin offs. I think it's a valid criticism.
I think it's great to kind of take a step back and see what

(19:50):
the zeitgeist is headed. But I just wanted to bring that
up because you can have these respectful debates and opinions
and not it being a bloodbath. We had talked a lot about the
Dhamma and what we should she purports to do.
We got to see a little bit of that in this episode.
And one of those things is brainwashing.
And I just wanted to bring this up as kind of like a something
to have in your head, because dowe all agree, first of all, that

(20:12):
the Dhamma is brainwashing Herschel?
Definitely 100%. And how do we know heavy?
Grooming. How do we know that?
Just like the one clearest bit of proof besides what we think
it might be. Setting him up in the room with
all of the art and giving him his own room and telling him how
great he is to see the way she does.
Very similar to what Sharon, he said.

(20:33):
She is rewarding him. She's his savior.
What do you need? I'm going to bring in a bed for
you. I'm going to bring you a
blanket. What else do you need?
And then she it's. Cold in here.
I'm creating a situation where you need me.
Yeah, let me give you my. My personal cloak.
So I mean, immediately you feel special, right?

(20:53):
And then literally being his savior when he's killing the
walkers in the hallway and she comes and literally rescues him.
Yeah. Why else were they there?
Yeah. Exactly.
OK. Exactly.
I think the food at the beginning, too, had something to
do with that, that condition. OK, little the walnut brittle,
it's tucked away in her pocket as though it's hers.
Like she hid a little. Handkerchief, yeah.

(21:15):
Like she hid it away. She stole it away from dinner to
bring Dan because I was thinkingof you, even though I'm the one
who's locked you up. So what the?
Face Rachel made and she you can't see audio podcast people.
So she offers it to him and he like he doesn't know what peanut
brittle is because also like oldpeople food but whatever What?

(21:35):
A great device though, by the way, to illustrate the old and
meets the. New Rachel Are you serving
peanut brittle like frequently at your job?
She's serving a vomit actually at the thought.
She takes a bite and then offershim the remainder of the food,
which is very intimate, to say the least.
So. And I don't mean the sexually, I
mean like an intimate act. I'm not.

(21:58):
Yeah. When I said grooming, I also
didn't mean sexually. That that word.
I don't know. Everybody rational knows what
you meant. Just for that 1% that doesn't.
We'll let you have it one week. That all signifies this.
Like I am now your mother. I'm your new mother.
I'm your better mother. I'm your other mother.

(22:18):
Well, and I was where Maggie wasalways like, you have to be
safe, you have to be safe. That seems to me like that was
the majority of their relationship was her not
crushing him down, but keeping him down in order to keep him
safe. The dama was like, no, I totally
understand. And I don't feel like Maggie's
ever had that kind of conversation with him.
Be free, young man. By biting it first and eating a
piece of it first, she proved that it wasn't poisoned or she

(22:40):
wasn't trying to trick him in. Any way, sometimes we do have to
say the obviously I. Didn't think.
I didn't think that. Actually, I didn't think.
I was thinking. Yeah, I didn't think.
Of it. I'm like, don't eat that.
And then she bites it and I'm like, oh, OK.
She's reaching for the the bands.
He's like, no, don't touch my myrestraints.
You know that that whole thing, you can see he's cagey.
Here's the thing. Keep going with that and you
realize there was an emotional Jelko when he's embodying the

(23:04):
Croat in his origin story. He left the Saviours.
He wanted to go to what is essentially in Croatian Croatia,
by the way. It was all very Stockholm
syndrome, like you learned to love your captor.
So the Croat is going. He he says after he left the
Sabres, he wanted to go to Croatia.
He says Hervatzka. OK, cool.
Crash into Manhattan? Not cool.

(23:25):
Maybe cool. Who knows.
I don't know if I like him. The dama not only found him and
gave him shelter and a warm place to stay, but he had this
what he calls Kiki Kiki. Kiki.
Which is essentially peanut brittle.
So again, there's a mirror here.He she knows what?
That's what he was referencing. I had no idea what the word

(23:47):
meant but I was like, this has to be peanut brittle.
It is peanut brittle. I looked it up too.
He says it. Yeah, he says.
Brittle candy or something that affects?
Oh, that's why. OK, yeah, because he said
brittle candy, that's why. But yeah, it is literally
translated to peanut brittle. By the way, I love the emotion
from that scene that Jhelko kindof exudes and he's, and I'll
never forget this. It's in his little quivering

(24:08):
thing. He's a really great actor.
Like it's. Just very obvious in these
scenes. I don't know.
Other actors are great too, but he's a really phenomenal actor.
I, I can't say anything else about it.
I believe he's the Croat, like wholeheartedly I believe.
I believe he's his character. And here's the thing.
What I really, I don't know if Ienjoy this part of the show, but

(24:29):
I'm learning to appreciate the fact that you're confining these
incredible actors into these character boxes that are meant
to tie into the greater Walking Dead universe.
And those moments where Zelko emotes this, you know, I was
suffering. I I thought it was done for.
And to think that not only was Isaved and given shelter, but I
was, I was given a suite that itcould be like this, that the

(24:52):
world isn't suffering and foraging and it could be like it
was or like in his head, becausehe's clearly doing the things
that was with the pheasant Pate and the wine and everything.
That's not old, that's not new. That's that's old.
That's treating yourself to a life that you never.
Have probably, yeah. Everything he does is like in
reverence of the days gone by. Down to the music in the
cartoon, which we will talk a little bit more about later.

(25:13):
This episode was very beautifully written.
All the transitions are not are not for naughty, by the way.
Everything ties into everything else.
Every scene leads directly into the other narratively in
parallel. Let me just talk about the
brainwashing thing for a minute,just so you have it in your
head. Here's a breakdown of the
typical phase involved in brainwashing.
And this is Google AI, but it ties in several articles to kind

(25:34):
of give you a concise picture. The first stage in three stages.
Unfreezing slash breaking down the South.
Obviously you have KG Herschel. Now how do we get him on Cagey
Isolation and control. He's in a cell.
The individual is often isolatedfrom their familiar social
environment, including family, friends and previous sources of
information. Support.
Assault on identity. This is still phase one.

(25:55):
This stage involves undermining the person's sense of self and
existing beliefs through varioustechniques like criticism and
humiliation, which he had beforeby the pinky toe.
The person's past beliefs and values are constantly attacked
and ridiculed. Guilt induction.
The person that's made to feel guilty or shamed of their past
self and actions. Sleep deprivation and
malnutrition. So you get the cold environment,
right? That's like a little pressure.
These techniques weaken the person's physical and mental

(26:17):
resistance, making them more susceptible to manipulation.
The threat of punishment. Clearly he had that before
because he was beaten in the first season.
The constant threat of physical or psychological harm creates
fear and depends on the captor, The breaking point.
This is the culmination of the of the unfreezing stage where
the individual experiences a severe breakdown in the sense of
self reality. They may feel lost, confused and

(26:38):
desperate for a way out of theirmisery.
OK, this is where we get to phase two, that apex of
Herschel's suffering. In comes the Dhamma change slash
introducing the new belief system, leniency and hope.
Once the individual's broken down, the captor may offer
leniency or a solution to the distress.
Often framed as a new belief system or ideology.
Indoctrination and repetition. The new beliefs are introduced

(26:58):
and reinforced through constant repetition of slogans.
I like the new I. I like what you like.
Simple, easy memorized phrases and repeat it endlessly to
instill new ideas. Controlled information.
The individual's access to information is carefully managed
and only information that supports the new beliefs is
provided. Right, so it's the control of
new input for Herschel. So like the walkers I get to

(27:20):
feed you the walkers in the secure facility.
How did they even get in? Positive reinforcement,
Cooperation. Acceptance of new beliefs are
rewarded while resistance is punished.
Peer pressure. The individual may be placed in
a group setting where others arealso being indoctrinated,
creating pressure to conform. Confession and self betrayal.
The individual may be pressured to publicly confess, pass
wrongdoings, and betray their former beliefs, further

(27:40):
solidifying their commitment to the ideology.
Now Herschel didn't have to do that.
The thing is, she read him. She knew this is already
something that he already wantedby looking at the drawing.
So for the large part, he can skip the steps.
But the repetition, confirming her own desires with his and
using the same kind of words over and over again, It's like,
yeah, yeah, we're on the same wavelength.

(28:00):
Refreezing and rebuilding the self.
That's the final stage. New identity and beliefs.
Individual adopts the new beliefsystem as their own.
Right? Because I think she fed him
exactly what he needed. Do we think that Herschel looked
at everything and wanted what she wanted?
No, but she saw that he was starved for an identity and she
gave it to him. You could be the one to draw the

(28:23):
new tomorrow, the thing that you're doing.
It could be more. And here's an opportunity.
Dependence and loyalty. They become dependent on the
captor or new group for support and validation.
May feel a strong sense of loyalty to the new ideology.
So he feels strongly about this new tomorrow.
Reinforcement of new self. The identity is continually
reinforced through continued indoctrination and participation
in the group or belief system. Since Herschel, in my opinion,

(28:46):
and I don't know what you think,didn't have much of A self sense
of self to begin with. I can easily see how easy it
could have been to read the damaand just read teenage angst as a
form of well, you're just, you know, you're just blowing off
the CV. Your mom didn't leave enough
room for you with her big feelings.
So here's something that let me remove you from your mom.

(29:06):
You know this first step, removeyou from your past life and feed
you using your empty chasm of a self with a new identity.
I mean, I think of it to now hisidentity has been Glenn's son.
I think we can all agree to that.
He's a teenage boy. Think of yourself as a teenager.
All you're doing is spinning around in the world trying to

(29:26):
figure out who exactly it is that you are.
Taking yourself away too seriously.
It's all you're doing as a teen is trying new things and seeing
is this going to be the person that I am now?
Well, did you find as you were ateen that it's like you're
constantly trying to solidify your identity, denying that your
identity is actually pretty muchmore fluid than you think it is?
Rushing to adulthood. Even kids I teach now who are

(29:49):
four and five are telling me they can't wait to get a job and
all this other stuff. Because I'm going to be an ex.
From the moment we are born, we are rushing to adulthood, and
then we get to adulthood and allwe want to do is go back.
I love this. That's neither here nor there I
want. To go farther forward.
I'm ready to be old. I love that for you.

(30:14):
I do not want to be a kid. I want to be Is it admission
that you are a kid or you feel like a kid?
No, I'm very much an adult. I hate the this part.
I want to be the old. So I want to press you further.
I'm not going to the title of this episode is Why Did the
Mainlanders Cross the River Rachel?
In terms of the title, which youonly discovered was the title

(30:36):
minutes ago, how does that relate to this episode?
Who? Are we considering the
mainlanders? Great question.
We met a new group of people in this episode.
They gave us the impression thatthey've been there for a while
at some point in the past. Were they mainlanders and then
took over this area? What are the new Babylonians?

(30:58):
Are they the mainlanders? Are we talking about people who
are already on the island? Are they the mainlanders?
But they didn't really cross a river, so I guess that kind of
takes them out of the. But if we're thinking of, like,
New York City as a whole, Dave, isn't that the case?
Like, people do not live in Manhattan.
They work in Manhattan. Well, I mean, people do live in

(31:18):
Manhattan, obviously, but like, not these people.
Well even Brooklyn and Brooklyn and Queens is also the whole 2
counties, Kings and Queens County.
Those are also islands technically along with Long
Island. So that's why the Krauts is an
island. Within an island.
There's the greater New York area, Staten Island, Brooklyn,
Queens. He was referring to himself.

(31:39):
He was. Talking about himself being.
Here. Oh, yeah, sure, sure, sure.
But it's also kind of like the case that Manhattan, all the
counties, let me just make sure that's your except for Bronx.
The Bronx is the only thing really kind of connected to the
mainland. Actually.
It's kind of interesting to think of.
But they're all separated by it.They're all in the water.
Technically, they're not part ofthe contiguous United States.
Let's say technically separated by water.

(32:00):
What was the question again? What was the name of the
episode? Why did the mainlanders cross
the river? To get to the other side.
Yeah, there you go. There.
That's the most obvious, Rachel.There you go.
Right. This is actually so Bridget, you
actually hit on something That'sinteresting because there is a
debate in New York City about when you become a New Yorker.
That sentiment is heavily reflected with the question.
You know what y'all are quick toclaim?

(32:21):
That you live somewhere else. There was a How I Met Your
Mother episode about. Quick to claim that you live
somewhere else, so I don't thinkyou.
Get to do. Can you elaborate?
On that, because you be driving down here and you're like, no, I
live here now. I'm a N Carolinian, are you?
You're not, and you still have your New York plates and you
drive like you're from New York.Yeah, so get out at the same

(32:42):
time New Yorkers themselves. So, but you're thinking the
reverse because isn't it that people are the same all over,
especially in a city that's veryhard to live in, ostensibly or
objectively speaking, but when you're here and you, I mean,
sure, and you know that you're going to live.
Here, But I am firmly against zipper emerging, and that is
what New Yorkers bring. Against zipper emerging or pros?

(33:05):
Yes, you know that it's coming. You know that that road is
ending. Stop trying to get up to the
front so you can get in front ofeveryone.
You're a punk. That's not zipper emerging,
that's jumping ahead. That's what I'm saying but they
all claim learn how to zipper emerge.
It's not zipper emerging, you'rebeing a Dick.
I know what that is, OK. You are of the belief we're not
going to take this any further. You're of the belief that no,

(33:27):
there should be a line, and you know that that lane's going to
end, so why don't you enter thatline?
That's the southern approach to this.
Thank you very. Very attacked right now.
Yeah, you should. As you should.
So I'm hitting my camera because.
This is swatting Dave. But Dave, I actually.
I'm not saying Boo, I'm not judging anybody.
No, zipper merging is you. You are supposed to go up to the

(33:48):
front. Use both.
Lane, you are not supposed to switch over to the other lane
and get in the slow line. You are supposed to pull up to
the front. But you know what?
My family is from New York. Okay, we're going to partial
problem this is. You terrible.
Comments. What do you do?

(34:09):
Do you do you wait in line like everybody else, or do you use
both lanes to create emergent traffic?
Do you do with the right way or are you like a?
Tremendous. Jerk.
I mean, I'm not. I'm not saying you're supposed
to jump out of the long line into the short line either if
you're already in. That's what everyone does, stay
in that way. Everyone does.
It's a joke now. Now anytime there's someone who
does something like that, I'm like, oh, must be from New York,

(34:30):
right? Right.
It's. Just a joke.
So going back to the thing I'm bringing up, isn't it the same
all over that? Let's say somebody moves to a
new city. You're quick to claim that city.
It's kind of like what you're saying, except New York.
New Yorkers do this like crazy. For a city that is very
difficult to live in, objectively speaking, you're
even more quick to claim it. And isn't that the case in The
Walking Dead universe too? How a lifelong relationship is

(34:55):
four months in or two months in because things get.
Well, I mean, I've known people who lived in New York for like a
year and they changed their number when they got there, and
then they refused to ever changeit back, right, Because they
wanted to claim their. Number.
Yeah, forever. Exactly that cool 917 number,
right? They have a 917 number.
That's the one they claimed. It was a 917.
There you go. See now area code 17.

(35:16):
And so this is the joke. It's kind of an inside joke in a
sense. You'll see people moving in from
Ohio all the time and claim being a New Yorker. 2 years in
and you're like, listen, musician.
When you wash out and move back to Ohio, you tell me if you were
a New Yorker. This is a sentiment, by the way.
It's always Ohio too. Mostly.
It's always mostly. Wisconsin some, obviously,
because I ran into some of them,but.

(35:37):
Weird, but it's mostly Ohio for some reason.
What about Floridians? I proudly retain my Floridian
status. I have not claimed North
Carolinian. To be fair, New Yorkers often do
migrate to Florida. Yep, they do.
And North Carolina. And everywhere.
Else no, there's a lot of them are in Florida.
But most of them are in Florida,you're right.

(35:58):
And some of the some of the younger ones will go to, well,
at least it used to be the case until I think Florida made
things a little bit more difficult.
They would go down to Florida, register their car there so they
can get the Florida plates, comeup to New York and have that
Florida insurance. So there's that.
Anyway, I say all this to say there's more to this joke than
even just that because isn't that why he brought it up to
kind of say, dude, I see you NewYork more than you see New York,

(36:21):
that kind of thing. Negan is saying this to Waylon.
Isn't that kind of what he's saying though too?
I don't know. Does he talk to Waylon I?
Mean he does. For like a minute.
Waylon is the big fella that he takes into the Central.
I don't know, but the Dhamma obviously thinks that Herschel

(36:42):
sees New York. And he just got there.
But he he sees New York with hishardest eyes claim in New York.
See, the way you shake your fistat that is the way I'm shaking
my fist at you in my car. Zipper emerging.
So there is a more literal thingthan that when we're talking

(37:06):
about why did the Mainlander cross the river?
And it is why is it called the Hudson River in New York City?
Why is it called the Hudson River if it's an estuary?
I don't know, resident New York guy.
That's it's an estuary. So we still call it the Hudson
River, even though it's basically an estuary.
It's a what estuary word means. Estuary is the point at which a

(37:27):
river spills out into the sea. OK.
So the joke is almost on the literal.
It's like I know more. River before it turns into the
sea. By the time it gets to New York
City, it's already an estuary because it's at the point at
which OK when you're sailing theHudson.
It's past the mouth already. It's.
Past the mouth already, basically.

(37:48):
I guess I. Have to see a picture.
Yeah, so when the new Babylon Federation were sailing from the
Staten Island Ferry on the Staten Island side to past the
Statue of Liberty, I mean, it's already it's called Liberty
Harbor, but it's still part of the Hudson River, even though
it's already kind of practicallyin the sea.
So that's it's interesting. So on the literal, he's saying
to the guy who doesn't know any better, it's not a river.

(38:10):
They they didn't, it's an estuary.
They crossed the estuary. It's kind of just making fun of
it The. Hudson Estuary doesn't quite
roll off the tongue the same wayof.
Course not, we pronounce things weirdly all the time.
Like DeKalb is DeKalb. You wouldn't, no.
It's actually the. Cab Exactly.
Exactly. We have It's a cab.

(38:33):
The original French is the cab, yeah.
There's a lot of French named stuff around here because of the
Revolution, because of all the French soldiers and laugh and
all laugh I had and all that. OK, this is the quintessential
How do you pronounce Houston? Well, I mean, the city is
Houston, but Houston would be the pronunciation.

(38:55):
In New York City, Houston St. That's right, we mess things up
all the time. We call things what they aren't
all the time. So, and one more fun fact before
we continue where is the Statue of Liberty?
In what state does it reside technically?
They say no Jersey. Yes, correct.
Really. Technically, it's part in New

(39:15):
Jersey. Everything is legal in New
Jersey. Including how?
Much does that take off New Yorkers?
I've been. Listening to Hamilton a lot.
That's just as a line from Hamilton.
What's interesting about some things in New York City is that
some are joint ventures. So New Jersey and New York form
the Port Authority, which means some of the things that you have
joint control over, Some of thatis actually buildings too, which

(39:38):
is really weird. I don't understand that at all
buildings that are in Manhattan.Is this like the whole Daredevil
Reborn thing with the area that they're trying to build up?
There's like no direct law over it.
Is that that's? Is this that same situation?
Technically, that's like a titlesituation.
There's a the title to the Red Hook, which is in Brooklyn by

(39:59):
the way. I shouldn't have brought up
another show that was dumb. I just chastised people for it
at the beginning of this. I'm sorry.
So the Port Authority bus terminal like in in the Grand
Central Station, that goes to New Jersey too.
That's a joint venture between the tunnels and bridges, same
thing. Port Authority.
So they have a joint sort of situation going on.
So technically the Statue of Liberty falls under that.

(40:20):
Technically it's in New Jersey, but technically New York and New
Jersey run that. They both both pour in money to
preserve that. Again, going to the premise,
they both take pride in that. They can both have pride in
that. This is like how South Carolina
jumps onto everything North Carolina does.
OK, same vibes. It's the same thing.
Yeah. They're like, no, it's the
Carolinas. And we're like, no, it's not.

(40:43):
Rachel's laughing, denying us delicious laughter on mute.
She's dying. Really enjoyed the episode.
I'm going to say it was a littleslower.
I mean, it's a it's giving thirdepisode energy.
Things happened, but it wasn't like edge of my seat.
Oh my gosh. The one thing I could really
talk a lot about and have and really have a conversation with

(41:03):
you guys is the scene between Herschel and Negan.
There was literally nothing saidbut it was so heavy.
Dave always says is a pregnant moment.
Right A. Pregnant pause and I.
Like the I like the moments where there's no dialogue
because sometimes they can speakthe loudest.
I'm very happy that we saw a little flashback of the Dom.

(41:24):
I mean, opening scene I was like, oh, flashback, boom.
This is the thing we've been waiting for.
Immediately knew, yeah, immediately knew a flashback was
coming. And I'm glad we got to see it
because it was speculation. I think we all kind of thought
what happened is what happened. So it was nice to see it.
It was nice to see how it playedout.
It was a little creepy. I still think the Dhamma,

(41:45):
because she said it again in theepisode that she lost something.
I think it was a child or a child figure.
Someone she considered a If it wasn't a literal child, someone
she considered child, you know, someone she cared.
What she said was something I loved was stolen from me once.
Very choice words. I lost everything.

(42:06):
I couldn't get it back. Worse than the sadness and the
anger. I had to pull myself through it,
which reminded me of Martha a little bit.
Yeah, by myself. But you can say stolen and that
mean like stolen by death or taken too soon.
Scott. Literally snatch.
Well, we don't know, Dave. We don't.
We don't. Know I just I got to say the
things I got to say the. Things.
No, I said the same thing. I didn't.

(42:27):
I didn't think. She meant literally stolen by
another person. But wouldn't that be interesting
to find out that this was a person literally stolen and then
this person shows up later? To invoke Bridget.
We don't know it was a person. She said some person.
Opposition defiance, Sort of me.I much like Rachel to assume

(42:47):
that it is a child or a child figure in some way.
However, I'm willing to accept that it could be anything.
She could just be crazy. It could have been her dog, it
could have been a pen. I don't know.
But. Wouldn't that be something?
There's a dog all along, actually.
And how would you OK make your? Favorite pen for you pet people
I. Can relate.
I had a favorite. I had a favorite five years.

(43:09):
You know what? When you have a favorite pen and
you just never use it because it's so precious to you.
That's what I have. Oh, no, I have that type of
anxiety. Yeah, heavy, heavy on that type.
Which is like you should use it if you love it right anyway.
But going back to the pet people, all of you, basically
people, would you have a negative reaction if it was a
pet that was stolen from her that all this?

(43:30):
Drama if it caused her to jump off.
Like the Edge, obviously the allthe Dhamma drama is because of a
lost pet. I get it like.
She's like my dog is stolen and I kidnapped a child in
retribution. It makes.
Me. No sense.
You did the child, Did Herschel take your dog for me?

(43:52):
Because otherwise it doesn't make any.
Sense does Herschel look like? Your dog.
That's weird, Dave. Some boys too.
You look like little puppies. Negan is the reason she lost
that thing and that's why she has brought him there.
There's many many times that Negan was responsible for deaths
of people. It's very easy for her to see
Negan is killing someone she loved and that person being

(44:14):
stolen from her. Was she originally looking for
him? I thought it was the Croat.
Because of the Croat I think. But isn't the dying charge?
Right. Well, no.
According to the Croat, they're partners.
That could just be something they're saying.
But that's brainwashing, yeah. To make him think that they're
partners and then all of a sudden treat him differently.

(44:35):
But still believing that they are.
What a number she did on him. She.
Could have found out that he knew where Negan was, that he
had a pass with Negan and so shebrought him as a partner.
But maybe it made. His idea all along, right?
In her twisted mind, she's like,well, he stole something for me,
so let me take something that matters to him.
And somehow, she figured that her soul mattered to him in some

(44:57):
way. OK, I like the dual use of
Herschel though at the same time.
But she's using Negan to furtherhurt her aims.
But also having Negan means thatshe can solidify her
relationship with Herschel if she ends Negan in front of
Herschel. And we can debate it because
there's more. I see what you're saying, yeah.
It's a dual use Negan that couldcement my relationship with

(45:17):
Herschel did. For you, I killed the, the, the
person who I'm avenging you typeof thing.
And she's amping it up by talking about how big Maggie's
feelings are and not giving him the space to, you know, feel his
feelings or express his feelings.
And. He.
Lashes out, and he lashes out atMaggie for that specific reason
in this episode too, so it's stuck with him.

(45:39):
Right. And he could claim I took care
of it for you, or the dama did, but by proxy I took care of it.
Maggie, my mommy. What kind of flex it would be if
if the Zama could be like this man killed my son and now I've
managed to make him like a #2 inmy group or whatever.
Exactly, 100%. Can we hang on this a little bit

(46:01):
because, and I love this, because going back to the scene
with Herschel and Negan, they'refacing off, His face gets all
twisted. Herschel's when once he sees
him. But to understand that scene
better, you have to go further into the episode because of that
conversation that Maggie has with Herschel, he explains.
But Maggie, his mom and the damakinda says it earlier.

(46:21):
Your thing with Negan, whatever that is, that thing with revenge
about my dad and everything, your feelings are so big that
there was no room for me. That is kind of obvious in the
first season when we talked about the last episode that this
whole big thing was so big. When it entered the picture,
again, there was no room for me.I think that really helps us
understand their relationship asit is right now, a lot more.

(46:41):
It also helps us understand the drawing that he made because
it's not 100% obvious at first. You don't know what you're
seeing in his drawing in the first episode, you're the end
credits you're looking at and you're like, what it oh, it
looks like explosions, right? But no, these are new structures
that he's building from the old.It's like a glass
omnidirectional room in this building where the explosion

(47:05):
was. And it looks like an explosion
because they've fitted it to be that way.
It's kind of cool that you see athing at 1st and you don't
understand it then because of things that were said.
You actually see it now, the wayHerschel sees it anyway, going
back to the conversation betweenMaggie and he, you understand
the scene with Megan a lot more.Because from my understanding,
it feels like I'm Herschel. I'm supposed to hate Megan

(47:28):
because all I've ever heard and seen and felt from Maggie, which
occupies most of my headspace, and whatever, all the things she
told me over the years, is that I'm supposed to hate him.
And obviously you're supposed tohate him.
But with all the big feelings, when he sees Negan, he jumps to
take him out because that's whathe's supposed to do, right?
He's supposed to kill the old, right?

(47:49):
He's supposed to kill the thing that killed his father.
But I think he doesn't have any feelings towards Negan, not one
way or the other. He's supposed to hate him.
But if he sat with his thoughts for one moment, as himself, as a
person in the world, he doesn't know his father.
He doesn't know Negan. I don't think he cares about it,
but he's been felt or fed or told, and all the feelings

(48:09):
around him are meant to tell him.
If you see him, go and kill him because that's your father's
killer. And that's kind of an us too, in
a sense. At one point or another during
our Walking Dead Universe journey, we too wanted to kill
Negan. At what?
At some point we wanted him gone.
The whole Rick struggle thing, we wanted him gone.
We're supposed to hate him. But if Herschel sat down with it

(48:29):
for one second, he realize he doesn't have feelings one way or
the other. I could agree with that,
honestly. He didn't know his dad.
There's not that emotional connection that he lost because
it was never there. I'm trying.
I'm trying to think of a scenario where I was ever upset
about something that happened before I was even born.
I don't. I can't even think of anything

(48:49):
that could come close to comparing to that.
Could you compare it to when your best friend when you're
younger tells you that they hatesomebody and then like the
expectation is that you hate that person too, even though you
have no connection to that person?
That's kind of the only thing I could compare it to.
And I did, right. We did.

(49:09):
We did hate that. Person blindly oh.
Yes, who? Where was it?
We were talking about emotional oxygen.
Which, which series? That friend that you have that
takes up all the emotional oxygen so there's none leftover
for you. We talked about this in some
series recently. What series maybe?
Dark wins. Is it dark?
Wins. Maybe I don't, I don't recall.
Wailing, maybe, I don't know. But either way, yeah, of course

(49:30):
I understand that. And it's a very similar thing,
right? You talk up a big game and you
know I am. I am supposed to hate Negan.
And that's the very point of hisfrustration, is that it's
consumed his life by proxy. Maggie's influence over him is
the thing that frustrates him, and it's left no room for his
own identity, his own will, his own thoughts.
It's pretty interesting thinking.

(49:52):
He also has had to run in with Negan before when he was
younger. They kind of hashed out their
differences there. Not hashed out the difference,
but he came to realize that, oh,maybe this man isn't the monster
that I'm supposed to believe he is.
And now that he's seeing him again, he doesn't have the
hatred feelings because he's seen the other side of Negan.
What did Negan tell Herschel as a child?

(50:13):
Do you remember? Yeah, yes.
I don't remember the exact line.But he was going to say.
No, I don't. I don't remember the the direct
quote, but you can. Say like if you see me again.
Well, he said. Something about like I'll kill.
Waiting for you. You'll grow up and you'll want
to kill me. Don't.
Rush to it. Like get to it.
It'll happen. When you get to it, yeah.

(50:35):
But he knew, like he knew when Herschel was a kid like you.
You're going to grow up. You're going to want to kill me
and, and you should. So go ahead.
I'll be waiting for you, essentially.
Maybe those very words made Herschel say, well Dang, that
doesn't sound like something a monster.
Did kind of take the air out of his sails in that scene.
But when Herschel takes that shot, what does Negan do?
He barely flinches. Barely.

(50:57):
The shot was wildly off. When you're a teenager, your
tendency is to rebel against your parents, so Herschel, by
not wanting to kill Negan, wouldbe doing the worst rebellion
against Maggie that he possibly could.
I mean, I'm sure there's some hatred for him, right?
Like he's the reason his daddy'snot in his life.

(51:19):
So that alone would sure, I never got to meet my dad, but
this guys the reason I never gotto meet my dad.
I would definitely have some negative feelings towards that
person, but I think they're amplified because of Maggie.
That's her entire personality ishating Megan and not being over
Glenn I. Mean hating everything, really.
Right, so for Herschel, being a teenager, he's like, well, if my

(51:43):
mom's all about this, then I have got to go the other way.
I think she's consumed by fear. If you boil it down, it's grief
and then it's the fear of more grief and continued grief
because she's lost everyone who is important to her.
Not to say that everybody else hasn't because they have, but
she lost all of her family in these like really tragic ways.

(52:04):
Family was trying to make a better world and they died in
doing so in front of her in several cases.
Put in that same position, wouldn't we be the same way?
I just maybe we'd be making morejokes, but other than that we'd
be similar. Herschel has a completely
different outlook on the world because he doesn't remember the

(52:25):
old world. He wasn't born when the when the
world was the way it was. He has grown up with violence
and death and tragedy to the point that that is just a normal
state of being. That's all he knows, because
that's all that has been since he's been born.
He has no knowledge of what it would be like before that.
Look at the cast of World Beyond.

(52:45):
They were living fairly carefreein the apocalypse because they
were excited for the freedom. And those kids grew up.
They weren't born after it happened.
They knew what the regular worldwas like, they just didn't have
a ton of memory about it. Well, they were educated.
Even that changed the way that they interacted with the world
around them. So you can only imagine that a

(53:07):
child who only has known this and not even known it in its
best states, because you think about it, he's like running
through the woods with his mom for like half of his life or
whatever. At least in the world beyond,
they lived in a fairly stable place.
An objective view of the apocalypse.
They had the closest you could have to the real world in the
Apoc, the previous world in the apocalypse.

(53:29):
Yeah, Herschel had to eat spiders.
Well, I, I kept thinking about the story Maggie told about
finding the women that had theirarms and legs and blah, blah.
Yeah. I mean, to see that kind of
thing all the time, he's got to be somewhat desensitized to it
in a in a way that people in thebefore time can't possibly be
desensitized. Right, the old normal or his

(53:50):
normal? I mean, I know that she closed
his eyes throughout the entire thing, but still, maybe she told
him about it, I don't know, maybe saw some things.
How? Many kids keep keep their eyes
completely shut. That was just one story of years
of being on the run and seeing terrible things.
Like I said, it's just somethingthat he's lived with his entire
life. He doesn't know anything
different. Whereas the people who lived in

(54:11):
the before time, they're always going to have a different point
of view because they they just came in a different from a
different place. There's one thing that I wanted
to go back to when it came to the Dhamma, though, because in
something that she says, the kind of linchpin that gets her
to convince Herschel or to coerce Herschel, persuade
Herschel, bring him in, bring him into her fold, is the thing

(54:32):
that she says about something I lost, was stolen from me once.
I lost everything. I couldn't get it back.
And she says I was alone for a very long time.
What is a very long time in the apocalypse?
Probably not that long for us inthe real world.
But consider that the Croat cameinto her life within the first
two years because we don't see the Croat in The Walking Dead

(54:52):
and The Walking Dead, when we meet Megan is 2 years in,
basically. So she's been alone for the
first two years, all alone. I mean, this is the point I kind
of want to make. Is she lying when she says that
to Herschel, that she's been alone for a very long time, or
she was alone for a very long time?
Or does she mean that more metaphorically?
I've not met anybody like you. It's a very good question and I

(55:13):
could see either being true or both.
OK, because I want to catch her in a lie that she's telling
Herschel. I don't know.
Well, we don't know, Dave. You lie too.
Exactly. We don't know, Dave.
We sort of do though. Not in this situation.
I don't know if the crowd left Negan within a year, let's say.

(55:33):
I mean, is a year a very long time in the apocalypse?
I guess so, but as. Princess.
Well, that's already seven years.
And if not more, no, definitely more.
The Princess we find Princess during the Whisperer War.
No, I know, but groups of peoplecame and went, but she was like
alone for a year. OK.
And yeah, I don't know how long she's been without those people,

(55:56):
but she's definitely been alone longer than the Dhamma.
Dhamma's been with the Croat since year 2 Mac at least, if
not earlier. And how long is that now?
If we go to the PDI, she's been with the Croat for at most, you
could even say 17 years. We don't know when the Croat met
up with Negan and when he left, but.

(56:17):
Like 15 like the least. You can say is 15, yeah.
Sure. 15 ish. I've been alone without an equal
in a sense, because right, she says.
Partnership with the Croat. For a long time, right not I've
been alone. She's not saying she's currently
alone, she said I was alone for a.
Long and alone still for a very long time.

(56:37):
Can you read the? Can you read the?
Exact quote, worse than the madness and the anger.
I had to pull myself through it alone and alone still for a very
long time. OK, so when she's making that
speech. Because that's what it is.
It's exposition, but when she makes that exposition speech.

(56:58):
Now this is an assumption on my end, but I assumed that this
could have been a reference to the before times that she had
lost something before and was alone in that.
This is the whole concept of like can a man be an island?
Right. Like because no man is an island
is like the same can a man trulybe an island?
When I say man, I don't mean actual men.

(57:18):
God, I can't believe to qualify this.
I have to qualify everything. Hate me, Get over.
Want to be. Liked.
Damn it, Mankind, everybody. We're called humans.
Yeah, deal. With it, so not.
Humans. Yeah, no, no man is an island.
I make it worse. I'm so sorry.
No man is an island. So we're referring to this
concept of like, you can be amongst people and still be

(57:41):
alone. And this is told time and time
again. I mean, we look back on people
like Bob Stookey, he's with people, but he's truly alone.
Princess, for the first portion of her time with everybody, she
can't connect, so she's with people, but she's still alone.
Eugene, when he's ostracized, there's all of these different
people who float and kind of actas this island.

(58:02):
Because the truth is, even though the saying is no man is
an island, it can be an island. It's not convenient and it's not
easy, but you can be. I think when you know what, OK,
let's bring this to The Walking Dead universe, makes you makes
it so that you're the person you're meant to be.
Let's use that because I like the idea of her being alone
before that I really like because if that's the case, her

(58:23):
being in the apocalypse, the Korat washes at her shores, and
then she's no longer alone. OK, we'll go with that.
Fine. If it was a thing that was
stolen from her from the before and her today, isn't it always a
response to something from before?
Some in some cases. Well, doesn't something about
her character give you the the impression that she at one point
was timid? That's hard.

(58:45):
He's a Bridget. He's a big assumption I'm.
Sorry, it's hard to say it. Is hard to say.
It is hard to say. It's a big upset.
It's a big assumption on my end.I absolutely.
Again, imitation is the highest form of flattery, Bridget.
When I do this, it's me in praise of you.
So like I'm thinking. Of you when I'm not, it doesn't
hurt my feelings. But I like the idea of instead
of dealing with whatever that was or she says she dealt with

(59:08):
it alone, meaning maybe shouldn't have the resources in
the before times or didn't make herself available or avail
herself of those resources and before times to get her through
it. And if that's the case, then her
now is a twisted response to to that loss.
It's as simple as like she says something was taken from me or
stolen from her. What if it was her freedom?

(59:29):
What if she was in solitary confinement?
Like there are 1,000,000 different ways that you can go
with this. We just don't know until we get
more information. It's an assumption, but I felt
like in that dialogue, it felt like it was before.
I don't know why that's where mybrain went.
It just is where it went. It's like a playground for me.
Like I love this idea. And if that's the case, and then
this isn't the obvious response.And so I love that it's in

(59:49):
response to a thing, rather thandealing with it head on.
She again wants to erase the past, the thing that makes her
sad, mournful. And what is this episode if not?
Mostly dealing with loss, the idea of losing somewhat or
losing something, correct? Let's take the next step from
what we were just talking. About I was going to say, I

(01:00:10):
really want to talk about the scene with a new room.
Not just new, the room she designed.
Designed for him and the. Room.
I have some interior design opinions about that.
And you're calling it a room, but it's an elevator.
It is literally an elevation. That's what I want to talk
about. That's what I want to talk
about. It's a freight elevator.
That's why it's so big. It's so you can move heavy
large. Instruments.

(01:00:30):
The way the door slammed up. Yeah, and.
So just so you know, for contextcomplete because I your face and
your question is very important because in New York City you're
thinking to yourself, how do I get a piano up an elevator, a
normal passenger elevator. You don't.
In Manhattan, most buildings have one or more passenger

(01:00:50):
elevators, but they also have one or more freight elevators.
And this is in most office buildings, residential to some
in some cases. So it's important to kind of
have that context in mind. And of course, she uses the
freight elevator, which looks super rad, but also makes me
worried. But I'm sure the Croat did the
structural engineering to make sure that that elevator was safe

(01:01:12):
to go up and down. We can go in the into the
details of that room in just a SEC.
What I really want to focus on though, is the Dhamma says
something very important near the end, basically the the
refreezing stage of her brainwashing.
And that is, it's great that we agree basically this thing that
you and I agree on. It's beautiful, but not
everyone's going to think so. It's getting choked up.

(01:01:33):
It's beautiful, but not everyone's going to think so.
We have to protect it, You and me, right against the.
World, it's so. Creepy.
We have to make sacrifices. I don't like that she sat on the
bed right after she said it either.
Or like, give me the heebie jeebies.
I did not notice that, and now that you've said it, thanks.
Yep, you're welcome everyone. This is the thing though, and
when you go home, there may be some things that you're going to

(01:01:56):
have to do. And that sent me into a tailspin
about the episodes prior. Because was it Herschel that led
the moths to the cornfields in New Babylon, making it so that
knew Babylon would forcibly cometo the island so that they'd
have no other? They have accelerate their plan.

(01:02:17):
That is a wild thought. Isn't it?
Herschel, the Pied Piper of moths.
I mean, I don't. Maybe they gave him a jar?
How does he get moths to follow him and what?
He gave. Him a charm and the chrysalis's
were glued to the lid. OK, maybe.
I'm just I'm just saying it's. That's how you transport him.
I mean, I definitely got like a a sleeper cell vibe after that.

(01:02:39):
Oh yeah, for sure. Because then you have to think
of what the things could be thathe did influence besides the
obvious tire fire, right? And maybe it's not obvious, I
don't know. But just thinking about what led
up to this second season, it's the fuel, the ethanol not being
available. And of course, we have to have
our heating and our humidifier room with the cigars and
everything and all the other things too, right?

(01:03:01):
We have to have the ice cream, Bridget.
We have to have the ice cream. So we need fuel.
Where are we going to get the fuel from an exploratory, quote
UN quote, mission to Manhattan, right?
No, we need that ethanol now. As Nirvaya says, Maggie's
questioning it like kind of passive aggressively.
Oh, I thought this was an exploratory missionary vias like
saying it out loud is a yeah, I knew it.
I was thinking of the painting last week.

(01:03:23):
If we think of the Dhamma as Cronus, what does that make
Herschel in terms of that Cronusate all of his his sons until he
got to Zeus who tricked him by getting him to eat a rock it.
Was really Gaia but. Zeus saved all of cut open
Cronus and all of the sons that he had eaten escaped.

(01:03:44):
Beside and Hera to be more precise, you'd said it actually
last week, Vulcan is technicallyHephaestus.
He's the metalworking God, mechanical objects, etcetera.
So he would be probably the mostof the creatives in that
respect. So Hephaestus Vulcan would be
the one. I want to meet whoever is
representative of Bacchus. That's a demigod.

(01:04:07):
But actually I can't believe youwere kind of like pre right
about her. I mean, you weren't saying it
about, you were thinking about the Croat, and that would be
Pluto, which is Hades. But anyway, yeah.
And look at what Herschel's drawing.
If we're talking about twisted skyscrapers and metal works,
yeah, that would be Vulcan slashHephaestus.
So Herschel would be that God, essentially.
I like that a lot, Sharon. DI really do.

(01:04:30):
There's a bigger commentary too,because I wanted to talk about
what your opinion on the bricks.Bridge I don't have anything.
Which made the clip by. The way, oh, it's depressing.
It's it's horribly depressing. I would not want to live there.
Would you want to live with the foragers?
Yeah, actually they seem more cool the.
Bricks is kind of a representation of Maggie.

(01:04:51):
It's, I don't want to say ugly, but in her spirit.
Yeah, I said the color. Palette.
What I'm saying is a representation of where Maggie
lives. It's just like her.
It's austere. It's stern.
No. It's.
Not flowery or creative in any way.
It's just straightforward, whichis Maggie now she has one all
consuming thought which is is Herschel in living in the past.

(01:05:14):
So I was saying as a the representation of Maggie, I
think the bricks is perfect. Again, not ugly.
I don't mean it in like an attractive, but just dark and
sinister and. Drab.
Right. Drab.
Yeah. Very utilitarian.
But why? The way I would describe.
It is it because of Maggie? Because we did see Season 1.
Well, she didn't build the bricks, Dave, No.

(01:05:36):
No, no, wait, wait, wait, wait. Hold on a SEC.
We, we saw Season 1 and part of Season 1.
You got to see a classroom setting.
Everybody's kind of happy. There's a lot of children all of
a sudden. Where are they?
We don't know. No, it seemed pretty depressing
and seeing them too. Far less depressing.
There's a lot more green in the palette, especially in the
classroom scene when I took a couple screenshots.

(01:05:56):
If you think about it, isn't it not Maggie?
And isn't it what she says aboutNew Babylon that your help is
you taking basically resources? Isn't that like the Saviors
again? Oh yeah, you're right, I forgot
about the silo. Like the grain silo and stuff.
Exactly, the grain silo I did forget about that Jenny had was
much more hilltoppy. Looking which makes sense

(01:06:18):
because Maggie has the background of agriculture.
So for everything that she relies on to become this like
agricultural center makes sense,right?
Hilltop became that for everyonereally.
And then so it makes sense for the bricks to become that also.
And you're right, it is worse. And they do take resources and I
don't agree with their sentimentthat they make things better

(01:06:39):
because it doesn't look like they've done anything to make
anyone's life better other than themselves.
But even anything further on than us, you know, like isn't it
about everybody? It's not about everybody because
you're not taking care of everybody.
You can't possibly. No, no, no.
That's the problem, and I only say this to make the point, is
that we look at the bricks and we even called it New Hilltop

(01:07:00):
until we found out it's name wasthe Bricks in season 1.
But you look at the Bricks now, that's a direct result of New
Babylon Federation and isn't that also Narvaez?
This is kind of interesting thatI'm tying Narvaez to this
person, but they can't see what's possible.
She's speaking about the foragers, the people that they
find in the cafe. Cafe on the Lake is what is
called. It's a real thing.

(01:07:21):
This episode is about learning from one another's perspectives.
Because isn't the foragers an extreme version of Maggie?
Having their own way, living life on their terms, that kind
of thing, even at the expense ofmodernization?
That's why she feels so stronglyabout leaving them alone, like
they're fine without anybody else.
They have a system that works for them.

(01:07:41):
Just leave them alone. Even before the bricks.
I think of Hilltop. She left, but it wasn't left
alone. But her philosophy at the time
was we're not sharing our resources with the saviors.
Yeah. Correct, whatever their place
was called with the Reaper storyarc.
Oh, the Wardens, which is calledMeridian.
Meridian. Yeah, that's right.
Meridian. Meridian also if they if the

(01:08:04):
rivers had just left her alone she would have been fine.
They were just eviscerating everyone.
Since a repeating theme. Yeah, this is a repeating theme
for her. Had the Saviors left her alone,
she would have the life that shewanted.
Had the Governor left the prisonalone, she would have maybe had
the life that she wanted. Had Rick's group left her family
alone. This constant story of like
invasion and integration. Invasion and integration,

(01:08:29):
Correct. Correct.
So you can't, you can't live that.
Like I, I don't want anyone to come in ever.
But in this case, she's like, look, I've had experience with
you. You've made my community nothing
but worse. You should leave these people
alone. The comic.
Criticism about Rick just comingin, ruining communities left and
right. Let's finish this thought.
Right? Because going back to Nirvaez,

(01:08:51):
she's not wrong in a way They can't see what's possible.
What makes Nirvaez somewhat right?
I'm reading this directly from my notes, even though her
approach is wrong. Back to the way it was right.
Who said that? Not maybe verbatim, but Rick
wanting to bring it back at the bridge, bring it back to the way
it was a new normal, kind of like the new normal of before,
like where people had civilization and communities.

(01:09:13):
Carl's idea ideal of we survived, but we also want to
bring people in, right? Let's make this thing happen.
It's like the next stage of bringing things back, isn't it?
So her approach is wrong, right?The prescriptions, not right.
Let's force people to do what wewant them to do so that they can
be our people and then we can provide for them.
They can provide for us, which is not obviously how it really

(01:09:35):
works. It's the idea, but it's not
working. But isn't that Rick though?
Not wholeheartedly and full throatedly in prescription, But
it's the idea that let's bring everything back.
Let's bring everybody in, Let's make a civilization.
The Charter for Rights and Freedoms was a bit more fleshed
out and better. Everybody could work
independently, but we can share.We can trade voluntarily, not

(01:09:56):
forcibly. Not a federation of some kind,
but like a sort of confederation.
We exist in silos. We can trade people, we can
trade resources. But voluntarily?
Yeah, Rick did ruin a lot of lives, but not intentionally.
Nirvaez. I think she knows what she's
doing in a sense. I think she's a typical
bureaucrat. There is no side vision.

(01:10:16):
It's just tunnel vision straightahead.
She's not bothering to see if any of what she's doing.
It doesn't matter because what she's doing is what the law is.
There's no other thing to do. Just tone the company line.
Right. Which means there's other
governors. There's got to be a higher
structure than governor, right? It brings me back to my rec

(01:10:37):
theory. Watching half of her people get
wiped out, the first thing she says is, OK, we got to keep
going and go get the methane. What are you crazy?
We can't go. We, we've got to get out of
here. Like what are we going to do
now? We don't even, we just lost 3/4
or more of our people that we were going to bring over here
because they said what, 50 people died?
Also we did lose the lady that we weren't sure about last week

(01:10:58):
who was or was not, so now both of them are it.
Was not it was not her. So we even lost her and now
there's no question she's. Dead.
Even if she took the time to think about what was going on,
she wouldn't care. We've got to do this, and that's
what we're going to do. That annoyed me so badly.
I wanted, I was like, Maggie needs to punch her again.

(01:11:18):
Because like, it's just you justlost almost all of your people
and the first thing you're thinking is, oh, we got to keep
going. No, you've got to get out.
But here's the thing, this is like, I've been struggling with
this one because imagine you took somebody from the real life
that doesn't know anything aboutzombies.
They do know something about zombies, but casually kind of
know things about this world haszombies.

(01:11:39):
Take somebody from here today. OK, let's use a softer example.
I could survive the old zombie apocalypse.
No, not you, not you, but that kind of confidence.
I've watched those zombie shows.I.
Will just to spite you, Dave. I live in New Babylon
Federation. This is you're in New Babylon
Federation. You're watching the show.
But you are though, Bridget. You're safe.

(01:12:01):
You have heating and cooling andice cream, Bridget.
So you drop that person into a war zone.
Right, back to working every dayat a job.
That's and your job is is major of this war and this this
campaign that you're running. So you're thinking I've got the?
Military track for me. Interesting choice you've got.
The full weight of New Babylon'sauthority on your shoulders.

(01:12:24):
You're like, yeah, I could. Yeah, yeah, they support me.
Yeah, why not? I could do this.
No, you can't, right Sharon D, Right.
You can't. You've got all these people
under you, man. I've literally never done
anything like that. I mean, I am, I have been in
management. So don't underestimate me, Dave.
That's. All I'm saying, that's what I'm
saying. But then again, would you have
turned back? Maybe not.
I get what she said, everything I I understand it's not even

(01:12:47):
just like it's not cockiness it's it's none of the above.
I get what she's saying. You are going to risk another 50
by leaving and coming back. If we run with our tails tucked
now we're going to lose even more people.
We might as well at least try tosee what we were came here for.
Which is called. I get.
I get the sentiment. The fallacy of some costs.

(01:13:09):
I've already put in half my pot,might as well waste the whole
thing, isn't it? Kind of, yeah.
Yeah. But I'm a gamble.
Baby, so let it ride. And the only reason why I bring
this up is to kind of bring you back a little bit more to the
center because we all have that in us.
We the fallacy of sun cost is something we all invariably have
done. We put this much work into it.

(01:13:29):
How much more could it possibly take?
So let's finish the let's get the job done because it's so
easy to hate on Nervias, right Rachel?
Right. Exactly.
I always say that cause of Dasha.
That's the only reason why I said it.
We didn't even get to talk aboutthe elevator room.
OK. Yeah, Dave.
Yeah, go ahead. What was the thing that struck
you most? Originally I didn't know why the
door closed like that. I was like, that's weird.

(01:13:51):
And then it like shook and I waslike, oh, an elevator.
Interesting. Wasn't it both things?
It was like her forcibly closing.
You're like, well, what is happening right now?
She's being very aggressive. Well.
Because when she hits the bus, aggressively so.
She goes, this is your new room.I'm like, that's weird, 'cause
it's at the end of the hallway, there's no door.
That's all I thought was you puta teenage boy in a room with no
door. OK, well, you're asking to see

(01:14:13):
something you don't want to see,but.
Or does she? That's all.
Or does she? Well, maybe.
Oh, she sounded always bad it. Was bad that I thought the hate
bang was bad? I'm going to Ralph Macchio.
So what what I thought. Actually sounds like an action
like I'm going to, I'm going to Macchio, right?

(01:14:37):
It's a new version of Otising. And then they get up to the top
and she opens up the doors on the other side, which I was
like, oh OK, cool. Freight elevator, obviously,
because they always have the twosided doors.
And all I could think was, OK, I'm all in, I'm all in on this
idea. Take something that no one would
have ever lived in before and make that a bedroom.

(01:15:00):
Why the heck not? You know what?
Because I was the kid who watched that episode of Full
House. And then I when Stephanie gets
ejected from her room and she has to live with Michelle and
she doesn't want to and she goesand lives in the bathroom
instead. And then what did I do?
But I took my little pillow and my blanket into the bathroom to
lay in the tub and that didn't work because it was wet.
Still, I did try. It didn't work out for me after.

(01:15:23):
Greg Brady moved into the attic.I was.
I wanted the attic room so bad. Immediately, all of a sudden,
I'm behind this idea. I'm like, this is no, this is
right. You're right.
Farmers, they burned on their fields so that they can grow
crops in a better way. So it adds nutrients to this
oil. You're burning everything down
essentially to create something new.
And why not? This is a new world that should

(01:15:44):
have new standards. A new system believes society
should look different. It shouldn't be the same old
thing. And really that's what I want.
It's what attracts me to The Walking Dead in the 1st place is
is that libertarian ideal of well, just leave me alone, let
me do what I want. I'm 100% sold.
These are my heroes now. Sorry, I've turned the bad guys
are my heroes now. I'm a bad.

(01:16:04):
Guy Rachel's laughing right now,so it is the play by play.
I am because, you know, are theythe bad guys?
I was just getting ready to say that.
Are they the bad guys? I mean, these other goobers are
coming. Kidnapping children.
They're fuel. Grooming them is not pretty.
Bad. But this is a different world.
These are great ones. Essentially kidnapping children

(01:16:28):
and forcing them to be soldiers.Right.
Well, it gets true. Conscription dead.
City is brainwashing you in general because you see the you
see the foragers and you're like, yeah, that sounds cool but
meanwhile, then they. And let the little girl die.
And part of me was like, maybe that could work.
You just got to stitch up the vein or the artery and she.

(01:16:48):
Was in the shoes I know. I know, but compare that to The
Walking Dead universe, where youstill try.
You know what I mean? Yeah, you caught her on that
bad. Boy, and we move on.
Now I get it. What they're trying to do was
express that rather than this isa great parallel to the Dom
herself being alone all this time, pushing through and making
it on her own. Well then, this is a community
that never has to do anything ontheir own.

(01:17:09):
They're always together, even indeath.
Do you have more data on the stone thing?
It was very with the stones, like killing, killing guardians,
yeah. I got guardian.
It was. Interesting to let them join
after feeding them the heart, but the feeding of the heart
that's been in many many, many different cultures and usually
it signifies the passing on of your your power.

(01:17:32):
Like Kalima. Like Indiana Jones?
Temple of Doom but like, like really?
In real life, like not this big stuff.
The Aztecs and their sacrifice, but they didn't have to
sacrifice her because she was already dead.
But they still offered up the heart to the gods, right?
Because that's basically what walkers are.
They're immortal. Kind of.

(01:17:54):
I don't like that. That's be like, in a way,
they're like the Furies or like the playthings of the gods in a
sense, aren't they? In a way.
Do the subtitles say that it wasin a Iranian?
So OK, let me get into that a bit because there is.
Before you launch into all of that, I'm going to say
goodnight. See you on Tuesday and then see
you on Friday. See you.

(01:18:16):
Yeah, see you next. Tuesday and also see you next.
Rachel, I'm so glad you were here.
Me too. Thanks you guys, I felt very
heard in this episode and I appreciate it.
Let's get to the scene where theforagers are basically chanting
for Joan is the young woman who Hershel meets in the clearing.

(01:18:37):
Her name is Joan. What's that word?
Maudlin? How maudlin.
How maudlin. Yeah, and the leader of the
Foragers is named Roxana. Yes, which is a beautiful name.
I loved the way it was spelled. Yeah, she seems to be Persian or
Iranian, but, well, And based onthe song, Joan's not going to
make it. OK, We're all here.
It's OK. We're all here.
She says to her. They all start chanting now.

(01:18:57):
Pop quiz Hotshot, do you remember when Luther from the
last season started humming at the dinner table?
Oh, yeah. It's a kind of before they eat
food and drink. It's to mourn the people that we
lost along the way to kind of say that this is how we got
here. In doing so, we are home with
all of them in memory. And of course you do it.

(01:19:18):
You take it to the scene. And I'm not sure if that was the
third episode. I should have checked.
Actually, I did write it down. It is season 1, episode 3, Same
energy as the first season, sameepisode number.
OK, cool. We're on the same page.
Let me read the note I left fromthat season because I thought it
was pretty eye opening. The episodes called People are a

(01:19:40):
Resource also has some tie in here.
Before eating like Maggie, the group pays tribute to those who
they've lost to remind them thatbecause of them, they are still
here. Luther's hummies interweave with
the Croats. DOMA smoke.
They flip back and forth betweenthe Croat We are home is DOMA
smoke. People are resourced with the
tribespeople means family, who we have in this world and who we
remember who've passed. Interesting that we're all here

(01:20:01):
because even in death, as Joan has passed or is in passing,
it's OK, we're here, we're here with you.
But when you go, you don't have to face it alone.
Adama, you can, you can go. It's OK to go, Let me go to the
exact song she starts singing while they're chanting.
The song is called Tubio, also an old blended with the new

(01:20:22):
because it was a Persian song, Persian folk song from the
mountains of Iran. It was inspired or blended in
with the idea of Gregorian chants.
Tubio means really come sit by me, But the full line, at least
that she's singing, is come sit by me.
Let me tell you, the grief aboutyour absence has made me thinner
than your hair. I actually may be a little
emotional reading that because it's not just about your loss,

(01:20:45):
the person you are losing. Also the passage of time.
Bridget yes, exactly. But it makes me older.
It makes me feel older and also is almost nostalgia that you
have to move on. It makes me miss you.
The mountains of I forget what what it was called, but this
specific region where this song comes from in the mountains of
Iran, because this was written from somewhere else.

(01:21:08):
It's like nostalgia for what wasthe idea.
We can go back, but here we are now in the present, grieving.
It's not necessarily a grief song, but it's something just
mentioning. Something for the season.
And so obviously, I mean, everything that they do is
intentional, but this is like clearly very intentional.
Wow, when I started looking thisup I was like damn this writing
is so good now I can't. Wait for Mikey to listen to this

(01:21:30):
and be like. You guys are we just picked a
random Iranian song. Done it again.
You know, he's not directing this episode, but he's still
executive producer and well, andisn't that interesting too
because they're morning ritual is to remove the heart.
The thing that you claim is the thing that aches for something
before my heart hurts, my heart is broken.

(01:21:52):
They're wailing. Well.
It's to say that your identity is your heart, which is why it's
this concept of your power or your spirit moving on to an
another. Plane they.
Remove it from the shell that will exist of you, right?
Because you're no longer here, Iguess is the thing.
So you transition from that, theCroat immediately after.
Again, there's so much great transitioning that ties in

(01:22:15):
together between the scenes. Croat is listening to Jem Li ko
materi resi. I don't know what it means, but
it's a Croatian song by Nocas Chemo, right?
OK. It also represents A nostalgia
for a time that once was and what we do after loss and during
the struggle. I'm going to go through the

(01:22:37):
lyrics really quickly. Basically we'll gather tonight
my friends and the thorns and flowers from our garden, 1000
Suns, scattered scoundrels and thousands of daughters
thunderbolts and rocks. Tonight we will tell the earth
As a mother we carry our hearts in a casket from grapes right
heart and caskets. So cool imagery Croatian who do.
From each vine rosy blood will flow and the letters will go by

(01:23:00):
themselves on the vine. I translated the lyrics because
I couldn't find them like a meaningfully translated format,
but you get the imagery. It's like we put our blood into
our works. We put our hearts into our
works, even through the suffering, even through the
rocks and the the walls and the thunderbolts.
Right now the chorus is grow theearth, break, break the rock,
break the wall, knock on the mother's heart and knocking on

(01:23:23):
the heart with the stone that great, the sea roar is a salty
tear. Permanent, permanent.
I don't know. I guess that's it's literally
permanent Nina Nana. Permanent Nina Nana thingy.
I don't know. Anyway, the laborers are getting
up and they're working. Your shore is made of in this.
I think he's talking about Croatia.
Your short is made of sunny, sunny miles.

(01:23:46):
The tide will rise to the earth's shoulders.
Sons and daughters, fishermen, laborers and those dear ones who
are no longer here. We will bring a wreath to throw
into the sea. Again.
This is again transitions right after this burial thing.
You provide us with this sun these sunny days, but you also
provide us things happen as we labor and we will reap the
fruits of our labor. The thing that we put our blood
and heart in. We will remember the people who

(01:24:08):
fell. We'll bring a wreath throw into
the sea. I thought that's really a really
great. This is what the Chromat is
listening to in the car just after that scene.
Not not even just that, but singing along with quite
emphatically. Oh yeah, with his eyes closed.
Yeah, it reminds me of This is unrelated, but it reminds me of
an episode of The Office where Dwight is listening to R.E.M.

(01:24:30):
Everybody Hurts. I.
Find himself in his car and he'ssitting like that with his eyes
closed. It was just blaring so everybody
can hear it. And they were like, are you OK?
He. Thinks he's having a profit
moment. That's actually kind of funny if
you think about it. That's what it reminds me of.
But you know what? Why wouldn't he think he's by

(01:24:51):
him? It's the zombie apocalypse.
Yeah. Who's going to listen?
Who's going to hear it? Well, it's interesting that
that's the song choice because there's some imagery in the song
that's repeated by the actual imagery in the TV show, which is
interesting. But these concepts, these
concepts of vines like growing in to your heart essentially.
Comparing the basket of grapes in the grapes the.

(01:25:13):
Walkers. In the park.
Too or in the park, so there's the one in the tree that's got
vines all growing through it. But then if you consider the
tunnel, which is the scene that's happening concurrently
essentially to this scene in theCroats, just like timeline just
prior. Yeah, I get you.
So just interesting that that imagery is then repeated in the

(01:25:33):
park. I know I pronounced.
Almost like The Last of Us too, where everybody's connected with
vines. Why don't we talk about Negan
speaking to the Croat in the car?
All this builds up to this moment where.
I assume that the Croat knows. OK, that's what I was going to
ask, actually. Yeah.
Does the crowd know that he. I think he does know that he
killed Waylon. This is how Negan would have

(01:25:55):
behaved in the old times. I don't like this guy.
I don't wanna follow me around. I didn't like it because the
scene felt really like wormy. He was always so much more
confrontational, so this seemed like wormy to me.
But at the root of him, this is who he is really.
Yeah, I agree. And I think in a way, there's a
good mirror immediately between the Crow and Negan.

(01:26:15):
I think the Croats thinking, let's assume that he knows that
he killed Waylon just because hedoesn't trust him.
Whatever he says it in the car. Let's say he killed him just
because, okay, what does that mean?
The Croat sees this as a win because he's like, oh, the old
Negan is back. He wouldn't let anybody talk
down to him or whatever, blah, blah.
Let's say he doesn't know. He sees the blood on his hand

(01:26:37):
and he's assuming, Oh yeah, maybe what he says is true.
And I did literally just say youjust need a little blood on your
hands to get the old Negan juices flowing.
Well, he had also just had the conversation with him in the car
on the way there to say I understand why you didn't shoot.
I know that kids is where you draw the line.
So for him to come back and be like, oh, accidents happen.

(01:26:58):
It's almost as though the crowd is saying like, I still get it.
I know that kids is where you draw the line.
Don't worry, I will take care ofit because that's what he says.
I'll take care of it. And then Waylon's like, yeah,
I'll take care of it or whatever.
But it's like, really the crow. I was trying to say like, don't
worry, I will do it for you. I will take on that burden for
you. Whereas Waylon is just like
being a jerk. Right, right, right.

(01:27:20):
I like that. So let me just explain what you
just said because I love it. You're literally saying from our
perspective, gross. If you look at the Croat and
Wayland, ostensibly you're thinking, oh God, he's willing
to kill kids. Gross.
But if you're not thinking like the Croat, he's just saying, I
know you have a soft spot for kids.
I will take care of that for you.

(01:27:41):
Like as if it's an expression oflove and reverence.
I will be that for you. That's what you're saying, But
Waylon? Is.
Waylon. He loves killing kids.
He's. Not a good guy.
He's not a good guy. He's not a good guy.
So he interjects himself into itbecause he doesn't like Negan.
He's like, he doesn't want to kill the kids.
Yeah, why do you? Get all the fun crow at.

(01:28:03):
Whereas the Crow is trying to have, like, a serious
conversation, Waylon's just there for the ride.
Yeah, well, for the experience, an immersive experience.
Yeah, yeah. I don't know if that's true or
not. It's kind of what I got from it.
I'm going to go with that personally.
Yeah, I love that. I love that we went down that
road. I am very excited for the
prospect of zoo animals loose inCentral Park eating people.

(01:28:27):
In The Walking Dead universe. Have we ever had a situation
where wild animals attacked people and that was the danger?
I could not remember any. Just Shiva.
Shiva, but she I mean she was wild animal, but that she was
still. Well, she was a zoo animal,
right? But.
She wasn't like a feral animal out there just killing people.
She was not under the control. She allowed herself to be under

(01:28:49):
the control of Ezekiel. Yeah, there's a relationship,
whereas she. Wasn't just a wild tiger that
was out. There getting.
People, I was hoping we were going to see the monkeys.
I thought that would be really fun, but I am super excited.
I am super excited to see a lionor whatever that was.
Monkeys are terrifying. Monkeys are horrible.
I've been to Thailand and it's 20 plus years and one of the

(01:29:11):
things they say is they're not cute.
If they could, and if you let them, they would murder you and
at the very least they will steal your stuff.
I just think of that one time that that Lady gave, these are
not monkeys, obviously she gave an orangutan half a Xanax or
something because it had anxietylike, but it was like human
Xanax and it had a really bad reaction and it ripped a woman's

(01:29:33):
face off. She lived.
She's given interviews. It's horrifying.
I feel so sad that that happenedto her.
Even like like capuchin monkeys,which are what they use.
Aren't those helper monkeys? But they're only good for a
couple of a few years because after that they become males.
Females are OK but the males after like 3 years.
Restless. They get really aggressive.

(01:29:56):
Right. Yeah.
But going back to your question,the huge roar in the distance
that Maggie hears shortly after the gunshot, basically, what is
that? And we're I, I can tell you what
I think it is. Well, you would know what it is
if you saw the trailer for the season, the one that came right
before. I don't.
And I won't for those who know, they've teased this at the end

(01:30:17):
of the last episode, right when they as they were getting into
the park, and they're also teasing it here.
Wink, wink, nudge, nudge. Do you know what I mean?
You know what I mean? You know what it is?
Throughout of The Walking Dead universe, they've never
addressed, wouldn't there be like an upsurge in certain
animals like bears and things like that?
Oh, if only you had been there for all of our coverage on that
one show. Earth Abides because man oh man

(01:30:40):
did we talk a lot about that. Well, as a matter of fact, we
talked about it in Season 4 and of Fear The Walking Dead and
Season 9 of The Walking Dead. So we go back to those episodes
because we learn a lot about thedifferent migratory patterns.
First of all, we know about the alligator that haunted that
flooded river, that strand and Dory.
We talked. About the alligator.
We also talked about it in our coverage of tales.

(01:31:03):
Because of the. Because of the.
Doctor Episode. Everett.
Everett. Doctor.
Everett And that was even 30 years later.
So there was an even more wild migratory patterns.
But we've learned a lot about the grackle and predatory birds
and what they do and how their patterns change and how they're
not afraid of people even alone.This is a new behavior.

(01:31:24):
And also we find out about it inThe Walking Dead too.
The packs of wild dogs that wentafter Negan in Forget which
season it is 7. 9 Judith was it 9 I think it was 9 with Judith.
Maybe as well, too. You get the idea.
Deer will forge and, and they dothis in real life too.
They don't. Deer are invasive and dumb, but
they'll be fruitful and multiplyand threaten residential

(01:31:48):
populations even today. I'm going to tell you a story
that just happened on Thursday. This has to do with deer.
I was leaving my like Bible study group and I was hanging a
left out of their neighborhood and there was a car there that
was sitting there. It was had its hazards on and a
guy was like out the passenger door like standing up on his
phone and I was like, oh, something happened.
They must have had a Fender Bender.
I see that the front headlight on the driver side is all pushed

(01:32:12):
in and damaged. And there's a little old lady
who literally I can hardly see, like over the steering.
So she's like this tiny little lady, she was driving.
And I was like, oh gosh, I wonder what happened.
And I turn the corner. There's no other car.
So I'm like, that's weird. I turn the corner.
I look over. The entire side of her car is
covered in blood from the cornerall the way back to the trunk.

(01:32:34):
Almost. It's just.
Covered in blood. And I was like, Oh my God.
What? Is happening and I drive a
little bit down the road. There's blood all over the road
and there is a deer literally split in half.
She was more lengthwise because,you know.
Horse like literally down the down the gut, down the belly.

(01:32:55):
Wow, that's. My uncle was driving home from
work a few weeks ago and a deer jumped over.
He was driving. The deer jumped over the back of
his car and hit the front of hiscar, and he had to get his
radiator and stuff replaced. It mashed in the front of his
car, but it jumped from behind the car, over the front of the
car. It wasn't like it came from the

(01:33:17):
side or anything. Yeah.
From the front. Just came from the back and
jumped over in his car. Proving my point exactly.
Now imagine them in the zombie apocalypse.
It makes perfect sense that thatCGI deer visited the theme park
in season season 8 of The Walking Dead because also.
It makes sense that they look sobad because that's how

(01:33:38):
complicated so bad they look because.
They're so delicated. Deer.
They mutated without humans around to keep them in check.
Right, they turned cybernetic and also they look like.
Potatoes that's. What happens because they're so
stupid? Moving along, you know what?
It would have been so much more fun if they'd made animals turn

(01:33:59):
into zombies. I'm sorry.
I I thought that's where you're kind of heading too with.
That's horrifying. Between the wildest and the Yeah
and. I.
I really don't know, guys. I don't know when.
Especially if you think about monkeys and primates and how
they're very close to our DNA, like. 96.4% the same as I was.
Hoping that in the park there was going to be smart walkers.

(01:34:22):
Well, I was hoping too. So I don't know.
Well, and also we never really got a definitive answer on the
Battle Biters situation, even though we kind of made something
up. Yeah, I don't.
Know maybe there's something different about these walkers
like. What's going on with the smart
walkers dude? Why did you in court?
You incorporated them and now wedon't see them again.
Maybe something happened, I don't know.
Then our VIA says do what we always do, peel off their

(01:34:45):
numbers when she's talking aboutwhat they plan on doing.
Peel off their numbers, divide the opposition, and immediately.
Horribly intentional. They're intentionally horrible,
is what I. Meant to say no, they're
horribly intentional and intentionally horrible ways So
yeah, they're on their way into the into the park, right.
They're getting through it. And Nirviah says we'll do what
we always do with the people in New York.

(01:35:06):
We'll find people that we can make treaties with and blah blah
blah and peel off the oppositionright your.
Treaty doesn't mean ass dude. Regardless of that, the scene
immediately afterwards is what they get further into the park
and what happens. Their numbers are getting peeled
off. Oh yeah, they are having.
Babylon soldiers going down leftand right.
Yeah, and the Crowat is making deals with other.

(01:35:28):
People. Yeah, well, yeah.
Well, monkey see, monkey do. We talked about monkeys before
going back to the room. OK, first of all, you can have a
critique about it because, but you can also explain it.
What is in the room? Herschel's room?
The elevator. A lot of stuff.
There's a lot of stuff in there.Would you say?
Specifically, a giant sculpture in the corner.

(01:35:49):
Right. Yeah, the mask.
By Alistair 1. Dimitri Allistat, Yeah.
What is the weight of that statue?
Because there are weight limits well there.
Was a heavy object on the other side, but I'm kidding.
But thankfully this is a freightelevator.
Built it into the frame. Actually doesn't exist.
It's not a real thing. It's not.

(01:36:09):
Sculptor is not real. OK, I was wondering if it was
real or not. It looked very pandemic doctory
to me. Right, OK.
And this is also from the early part of the century, right?
Well, what was in the early partof this?
Yeah, it's. Very, very pandemic Dr. To me,
the medieval doctor bird like, yeah, plague Dr. plague Dr.
That's what. I'm trying to play doctor.
It's the whole point was they had potpourri at the end of the

(01:36:31):
nose so that you can breathe, correct.
Nice sense sculpture aside, you can say a lot about the
sculpture, what it means and I like that.
I love that for you, but it doesn't exist even though it has
one say nothing. Well, even though, no, even
though it has that authentic looking and isn't that
everything authentic looking plaque that was obviously taken
from a museum, but it wasn't. Yeah, it's.
Interesting, but it wasn't because it's not real.

(01:36:52):
Yeah, but tricked us, right? In a way.
So of course it would trick Herschel, but it says something.
You're saying she made this up? I thought it just existed in
their world Because their world is not our world.
Well. No, no, no.
I'm I'm saying it's you could say both things.
You can say she tricked us as the audience, she tricked
Herschel, fine. But you could also say, well,
isn't the show tricking us in a way to trying to paint like a

(01:37:14):
picture for us about what is in the room, but what is in the
room? It was just a weird choice to
use an actual piece of art at the beginning of the season and
then a fake piece of art now. With the Goya painting.
Oh, which is just the episode prior again.
Yeah, that's really interesting.But the larger commentary is
what's in the room is history. What was.

(01:37:35):
It's not interesting that we're using now to explain it, though.
I think what she's saying is shesays I I can't unknown what I
know. That's just how that works by
the broken glass. I can't Unsee what I've seen
like unexperienced what I've experienced.
But here is more context that you can draw upon to create
something new, which is fair because is Herschel trained as

(01:37:58):
an artist? He kind of just picked.
He's naturally talented, I guess, because who did he learn
to draw from? Isn't that with everything you
want to hone your craft so that you can have a first of all
structural basis for your ideals?
Because it's not like you remember Frank Gary, the guy who
created the Is it Frank Gehry hecreated?
The not the Guggenheim. The Guggenheim, yes, thank you.

(01:38:19):
And he was a modern architectureperson.
But the thing about Frank Gehry was that some of his, and I
could tell you, not even anecdotal factual evidence, the
Guggenheim constantly leaks. Yeah.
Because he's known for creating really cool stuff that doesn't
really work all that practically.
Yeah, I mean, he does his best, but at the same time there's

(01:38:39):
just. Well, you're creating wild
looking things. That have no structural supports
in some places have to be re engineered because you know
whatever. This is her way of saying learn
the basics. Learn the structural part of it.
Here's some stuff that's surrounding you that gives you
context of the world at large and.
Then we can learn from the past,we can't just ignore it
completely, right? When she kind of says that, but

(01:39:02):
at the same time, we're going toerase history by leveraging it.
And when you create this new world, nobody else has to learn
about it. But that's faulty, right?
If you think about it. Well, you'll still be creating
new history that they will learnabout.
Exactly. It's it doesn't work.
It's a fallacy. I, I had this thought, this
wild, wild thought this week before I even watched this

(01:39:22):
episode. I was driving into work and I
was just thinking about and I was throwing out the compost at
the same time, right? I was taking it down, go into my
car, throw out the compost. And I just had this wild thought
about dirt itself. And how this profound idea that
dirt or the accumulation of dirton the earth is broken down
particles of everything that ever was living and non living.

(01:39:43):
And how we are living on what was and how everything that came
before us is an accumulation of the people have gone before us.
All the knowledge, all the trees, all the nutrients, all
the soil, everything. And that's in the dirt.
And how grateful we have to be in a way that they with their
bodies, their own human bodies left this for us, for us to do

(01:40:06):
the same eventually. But this weird profound thought
of how grateful I am because I think about mortality all the
time and how. You know, we have this podcast,
we want to be great and all thatstuff, but then, you know,
sometimes you have to kind of just take a step back and
realize that, well, obviously there's more left in podcasting
and there's more to life than your marriage and the things,
the fun things you like to do and all that stuff.

(01:40:27):
And you should do all those things.
But I'm just thinking that the fact that we can have this life
that we live now that's inarguably better than it was
ever in human history, good and bad.
People had to lay themselves down on the dirt to make more
dirt. The thing that we used to grow
the food to make the air clean and, and all that stuff.
And when you take it back to this episode, isn't that the

(01:40:47):
room? Isn't that Herschel's dirt in a
sense? The thing which he'll plant, his
ideas from which it will grow? So this is Mike explaining away
what the dama does. This is your dirt.
You will plant your ideas in here for the thing that once was
to allow it to flourish. So it's not directly erasing the
past, but realizing it's just dirt and it's gone.

(01:41:08):
It now is the nutrients for you to fly.
Oh, how Herschel doesn't know how to use a gun.
Doesn't matter. Who cares?
It doesn't matter. Again, that would be like a
fairly obvious thing I would think, but.
I'm a little. Disappointed.
I don't know. Maggie's lack of teaching him,
which is something I have railedabout in the main show, you
know, firearms. Children need to be taught how
to defend themselves, you know. Well, I think she's taught him

(01:41:30):
how to use everything else, but it's not a renewable resource
anymore, so it doesn't make muchsense to teach it to him.
Except they're still around, so you should know how to use one
just for your own knowledge. Well I wouldn't be ready to to
actually fire 1 you randomly find either, because if you
think about it, that's part of the reason why people get into
trouble is because they're not well maintained.

(01:41:52):
Dirt accumulates into the chamber, and if you fire one
off, it'll throw sparks too. So there's like a lot of things
going too far, no? So here's the thing, OK, OK,
that's Nirvaez's gun that Ginny nicked from the last episode.
And you even saw a scene where Nirvaez was cleaning the gun.
I don't know about the internalsbut she was taking WellCare of
it which kind of throws. A beautiful.

(01:42:14):
Gun. Yeah, but the the whole purpose
of that is to say when he holds it in his hand, it's even
flashing in the sun or something.
But the idea is that it's to plant the seed in your head that
this is not practical technically, if you think about
it, I mean, you have to make, well, maintain, you have to have
people that make the bullets to do the things like this New
Babylon Federation all over the place.
They have specialty. They live in a life where you

(01:42:35):
can have specialty. Something I say is the
Kickstarter. The only way you can have
civilization is specialization. I can see why Maggie wouldn't.
It's not practical. I mean, isn't that the thing we
always rail for is that it's notreally practical to teach
somebody in firearms because it's not readily available.
So teach them on Aikido and not aikido.
Technically you should teach them in it was a jiu jitsu,

(01:42:56):
let's say. Or, you know, bow staff use
throwing knives, right? We saw that.
That's a bit more practical. Krav Maga, Kick him in the nuts,
tickle them. In the pit, Dave, I know you'll
remember this. When Doctor Santos tells
Whitaker she knows Krav Maga, hegoes.
I don't know who that is, but good for him.

(01:43:20):
It's like, I know the guy. OK, here's a little tiny nugget.
Joan, like Victor in the last episode, is the same age as him.
I did the math. Cheap death, Dave.
Cheap death a cheap. Death.
But they're also kind of evokingthe same vibe.
Victor was around 4th grade, 10 years old, let's say.
We kind of called it in the on that.

(01:43:42):
And we find out from my interview with Logan Schmucker
that he's 29 years old. It's playful.
There's around the same age group.
When the apocalypse happens, Joan dies.
Victor dies on the show. You're killing your future.
Yeah, you're killing your futurein the pursuit of the present,
but who is it going to be for ifthey keep dying like this?
Exactly if you keep killing them.
Whether inadvertently or invert or.

(01:44:04):
Invert. Like.
That's. It inadvertently.
Burn it down. Herschel has this heart to heart
with Maggie. One thing I noticed about that
heart to heart, he says the thing out loud.
He admits that he lied to her inhis own forward thinking way.
Whatever in the process of explaining himself that he does

(01:44:25):
know this woman everyone sees this terrifying city.
I don't see it like that. It's been this place that's been
through so much, broken, ignoredand abandoned.
I'm talking about me audience. An island no one came to save.
But it's over now and it could be something new, free from that
pain and reinvent itself. Make it whatever we want it to
be. We can make it whatever we want
it to be. OK, first of all, before we get

(01:44:47):
into what you thought about that, because you can have
thoughts. I've never heard Logan Kim sound
more like OK, I keep saying Glenn, but what is the actor
Stephen Young than these lines in particular?
He sounds exactly like Stephen Young.
Intonation, sound of voice, everything.
Listen to it again, you'll hear it saying all of it out loud.

(01:45:08):
I. Actually thought maybe it could
have applied to Maggie too. He wasn't applying it to
himself, he was applying it to his.
Mom, funnel your rage into something productive instead of
what you're doing. It's what I've always wanted for
you. Yeah, because I imagine that
hurts him to know that his mom can't move past this, that he
essentially feels like he's not enough for her.

(01:45:29):
Like, how hurtful is that? Not only for him, but he must
feel that radiates off of her, this loss.
And he's the only connection that she still has to Glenn.
And all she can worry about is just keeping him alive.
She doesn't. Doesn't matter if he's good or
bad or interesting or boring or or anything, really, as long as

(01:45:53):
he's alive. And couldn't they be doing
something else? Couldn't they be working towards
something else? Couldn't they do that together?
I don't know, I. Felt the same way.
I felt the same way. That's really what I thought of
was like maybe this is about Maggie and him making a final
plea because he's made this pleabefore.
This plea has come up a couple Times Now, this plea to let this

(01:46:14):
go and move on and be free of it.
You've said that you are, but you're not.
It's so clear that you're not. Similar to what I was saying
about him finding Negan in the clear or Negan finding him in
the clearing in the near the fountain and everything with by
the way a dirty water dog stand in the background.
That's what I mentioned, that hetwists his face up and shoots
Negan almost immediately or tries to whatever.

(01:46:36):
Isn't that the same thing? He's capituling?
It's like I'm supposed to hate Negan.
Is it a son's duty to save his mother?
No, but sometimes people who have mothers who need saving
will do their best to do that. Or if I kill Megan, maybe it
will finally heal her. Will it be over?
Same thing, same energy. Will it finally be over?
But. It's not enough, right?
It's not enough to kill Megan. I often I used to think about my

(01:46:59):
own mother is like, will it be enough if I do everything she
says No, there'll be something. There's always there'll always
be something else. But I need to give her something
to look forward to, right? It's the idea of I can kill
Negan, but that won't be it. Maggie has suffered.
She's probably told Herschel allthese losses.
We should be able to understand where Maggie's coming from,

(01:47:20):
given the fact that we saw all her family members and her
husband die. But it's that one extra step of
Herschel saying, I'm going to get you out of this, so I'm
going to build this new world for you to enjoy.
That's really cool. I like that insight.
And something I hadn't considered before, because when
I saw it, I thought the same feeling that she got in the last
episode. At the end, she realized the
blue cloth was Herschel's doing.I've lost my son forever.

(01:47:42):
There's some of that in there, too.
I think there's fear of her thinking this is it.
The city does have a pull on him, a pull that's going to be
permanent. I don't think those things can't
coexist. Isn't that, in a way, a lot like
Rick deciding to blow up the bridge to save everyone else?
Isn't that the same? Yeah, like, is it worth this if

(01:48:04):
it means everybody dies, right. The zombies crossing the bridge
and everybody is a threat. Isn't that the same thing?
Isn't it? Worth killing him if you lose
me. And Herschel believes that the
sacrifice is enough, the sacrifices that the Dhamma's
Speaking of is enough to save Maggie, right?
It's not just about him and his vision, his role in the
universe, but him trying to pullMaggie into this world he wants

(01:48:24):
to create for her. I don't know if that's the route
it's going to go. It could go.
It's like he has to blow up the bricks and New Babylon in order
for her to have a future. Personally, it's all for her.
It doesn't have to be that, it could be just him being a
teenager. But I'm eager to see the next
episode, because if you like what you heard, head on over to
ratethispodcast.com/squawking Dead. 5 stars and a hideous

(01:48:45):
statue is all we need to know that you love us.
Tell us what you like. Tell us what you didn't like.
Tell us what you think we might have missed.
I know we missed a lot. It's OK everybody, but tell us
after every single episode and if you really like what you've
heard, tip us and get the unedited version of this episode
for you to enjoy. Including my pre squawk insights
for 30 days. You'll get forever access to our

(01:49:05):
discord just from a tip. Take your support further.
For as little as $4.00 a month in the Walker's Tear, you can
get more access to our Discord forever access to our free stuff
in our coffee shop, our insightsof unedited uncut including the
interview we just did with LoganSchmucker last Friday in full
almost two hours worth of content that will undoubtedly be

(01:49:26):
slimmed down to less than an hour.
Seriously. Classic Dave, classic me if you
happen to join the Whisperers survivors in great M tier, you
will get a free classic T-shirt on signing up.
Join the survivors in great M tier.
You can show up in these episodes alongside us, lending
us your thoughts with us on screen with your camera, mic, my
mouth, face head. And if you happen to join the

(01:49:47):
great M tier, the greatest is tier, you can get access to our
core channel, which is where we have our behind the scenes
discussions. Any conversation that we have in
the studio that's not an episodeor whatever, you will be along
for the ride. We'll invite you to that chat.
We'll make sure you'll you'll beavailable for it.
Because you're a junior producer, you can tell us how we
can shape the course of the show.

(01:50:08):
I've been your host David Cameo,and I was joined by 9 Rachel
Burke. AC Gardner.
And Bridget, you can find me at ko-fi.com/punky Brewster.
That's PUNKYBRUISETERI. Really cannot wait for the next
episode. This episode gave us a lot of
front loaded knowledge for us tokind of go full throttle.

(01:50:29):
Sounds like we'll meet Bruegel alittle bit more in the next
episode if history has told us anything, and maybe even some
zoo animals. So I'll leave it right there.
But one little thing I recommendyou do before or right after you
listen to this episode, check out the episode or Insider in
which Eli Jornay tells us how Logan Kim was found for the show

(01:50:51):
and why they chose him and some of the scenes that he did on the
sides and why the sides ended upmaking it to the show.
Because in the sides he was knife throwing.
Logan Kim bought a set of throwing knives to practice and
season 1 there was no knife throwing.
So they included in the second season.
Kind of cool story. Let them tell it to you.
It's cute. You get to see some behind the

(01:51:12):
scenes footage of the sides, so it's kind of cool.
And a whole bunch of other insights that we didn't talk
about because it's in there probably.
So take care everybody. We'll see you real soon and
remember that we are squawking dead.
Bye. See you.
You know what that statue lookedlike?
Something Delia Dietz would havemade.
In Beetlejuice. Oh yeah, it definitely did.

(01:51:35):
It definitely did. Oh, Catherine O'Hara gift that
keeps giving. Well, thank you so much for
making it to the end of yet another episode of squawking
dead. This one, The Walking Dead Dead
Cities third episode of its second season titled Why did the
Mainlanders cross the river? And why did you come across this
podcast? I wonder.
I really do hope you're enjoyingit and I want to tell you a
little bit more about the folks in our memberships who are

(01:51:57):
enjoying it so much they decidedto join a membership.
It's a little perk that they receive in gratitude for their
their patronage, starting with the great M tier we have at real
Ryan GM on Instagram and X moving on to our whispers here
we have at Kim dot rally number one on Facebook, Skylar Rose PW
on Instagram and X and that's it.
They're peeling off just like New Babylon is peeling off their

(01:52:20):
numbers in Manhattan. So we could use a couple more
alliances to keep this podcast going.
It's getting really dark out here.
Please don't make this the fallacy of sunk costs.
And as I mentioned earlier in the episode, we do have merch in
the merch store. You can get a squawking dead
city logo or art design T-shirt.I thought this conversation was
very fruitful. I thought we got to dig into a

(01:52:41):
lot more of the characters motivations, where they're
coming from, where they're going.
And even though it felt like we can go very far in terms of
logistics or even the plot, I think having this knowledge and
human exploration actually helpsus when the story starts moving
forward, perhaps even swiftly. In fact, I was even thinking

(01:53:01):
over the course of this week, since we recorded this episode,
that the Dhamma herself may not have lost a child.
Sometimes I think of insights between the time we record and
when the episode gets published,since it takes a couple days for
these to come out for all the editing.
I happen to think that maybe theDhamma, because of a child, she
lost her career and she refers to it as stolen because she

(01:53:24):
blames the child for losing her career.
Something chew on. And sometimes you do get little
bit extra at the end of every episode.
So I hope you're listening all the way to the very end.
And for those who know and for those who do, first of all, I
salute you. And second of all, remember that
we are squawking dead.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Crime Junkie

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}The Walking Dead: Dead City |2x03 "Why Did The Mainlanders Cross the River?"

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Crime Junkie

All Episodes

The Walking Dead: Dead City |2x03 "Why Did The Mainlanders Cross the River?"

Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang