The Walking Dead: Dead City |2x04 "Feisty Friendly"

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Yeah, Oh yeah. Scrabble Dead, A podcast over
episodes of Action Dead Reverse,We are Squawking Dead, a podcast

(00:22):
pulverizing programs beyond The Walking Dead universe.
Sometimes we give you news. Sometimes we make you laugh.
Most times we go deep. I'm your host David Cameon.
I was joined by we're. Doing it again me.
Can you hear me? I don't do it for fun.
Yeah, we can hear you totally fine.
You're just frozen on the screen, that's all.
OK me. Hi Cosmo, I'm 09.
And Bridget, you can find me at youtube.com, Slash at Punky

(00:43):
Brewster. That's PUNKYBRUISETE.
R And today we're here to talk to you, with you, about you
against you with your mom about The Walking Dead, Dead City's
fourth episode of its second season titled Feisty, Friendly,
Feisty Friendly. Could I have a little feisty
friendly? Yeah, we have a little feisty,

(01:04):
friendly. It's such a great.
Once you figure out what was written as the title, it's so
much fun to say. And I want to say hi again
because he didn't hear me. Hi.
Mio's the one. Hi, all.
Muted Dave, he yelled. Muted Dave.
Muted Dave, He yelled, and he pointed at the screen.
And then Rachel says, oh, hello,the chat.
It is very flattering pose, Rachel.

(01:24):
I agree. It is a very flattering pose.
Don't you agree, Bridget? It's like.
You're a Renaissance painting. I agree.
I agree. I'm so glad that it's there.
But now she can't. We can't see her faces as she's
making. Dave, what are you saying?
That's true, I do make a lot of faces while you're speaking.
It's like it's true. Yeah.

(01:45):
Well, we're here with you to talk to you about The Walking
Dead, Dead Cities thing. And it's a lovely episode.
And I as, as a New Yorker, this was a very, very great treat for
me because I love this New York socialite banter back and forth
between the Dom and Bruegel. It's like, it's kind of like how

(02:05):
sometimes people in the South ormaybe the socialite S talk,
there's this idea of not saying what you mean, oh bless your
heart kind of thing, going back and forth between them.
It's not even the bless your heart thing because that's like
so obvious now, but it's. Right now.
It's the backhanded compliments like, oh honey, that is so brave

(02:26):
of you to choose to wear that. You're like.
I love that for you. Why is that brave Lorazepam?
What was? That.
For Piper Nut. White Lotus.
OK. Oh, thank you.
The way you did the voice just made me think Parker pussy.
Boot is boot is boot is poor people anyway, so I don't know

(02:52):
if we have any housekeeping personally, Sometimes these
things show up in my feed and I write things down and then I
well, I don't really I'm like, oh, remember?
And then I don't oh hey, merch. We have it for all the series we
cover. I suggest check it out at our
merch store which get to the link in our YouTube description
or if you had to squawkingdead.com choose the

(03:13):
menu in the top left and choose buy merch.
It'll take you to our store. And I know that somebody I don't
know who recently bought one thing, at the very least, I
think it was the last of squawkslogo design, T-shirt and a
feeling is. That you I.
Don't know for sure, I don't getpurchaser information, but I

(03:33):
thought maybe, maybe. Well, today we're here to talk
to you about Feisty Friendly as the title of the episode.
What does Feisty Friendly? How does it relate to this
episode? Rachel.
Always, Rachel. Feisty, friendly, very.
Are you? Are you Polly Shore?

(03:58):
I feel like everyone in this episode was feisty friendly
every Almost every interaction we saw was some sort of feisty
friendly from the Dhamma and burger roll.
What was? It's like brutal, brutal,

(04:19):
brutal, brutal. Burgers, bagels.
So yeah, I just. Can't do it.
It's close enough. It's close enough.
What is it? Until we get a season desert.
Like you're brewing a beer brew.Bugle OK goal.
Like a gal. Yeah, like Bugles.
I'm a. Burgle but.

(04:39):
Like bugles, like witch fingers.So like it completely ignores,
yeah. Yeah, just.
Like I'm trying to. No, no.
I'm trying to get it to stick. So all the way from the
interaction between the Dama andKim and we.
Lost it already. So I see Negan, Negan and Maggie
which was mostly feisty, not so friendly A.

(05:02):
Little feisty. And then the dama.
And Herschel, of course, that was.
Even a little. Feisty.
A little feisty. Friendly only because there's
yeah, there's history there. So we know it's like a little,
there's got to be a little feisty there, but but also
friendly, but also friendly. And the the Croat.

(05:26):
What's his? What's his actual?
What do we? We don't know his actually.
OK, literally just the Crowat right now, OK.
I thought we get the dama's namethis episode.
No. We're so close.
The famous critic her Benjamin Pierce.
Oh my gosh, that was like that whole scene was nerve wracking.
I'm like, dude, shut up. All right, we said all the
things. Goodnight, everybody.

(05:47):
I think that's really all I want.
To say yeah, so we covered the whole episode.
Bye. And that's feisty, friendly
everybody. Thank you everybody for joining
our live stream. Yeah.
But but yeah, every. Rob Lucchese.
Needless. To say every.
Every interaction had an elementof friendly, feisty, feisty.
Friendly. No.

(06:07):
Yeah, Well, feisty. Friendly hello Rob and also
thanks. Neo is the one it was him Yeah,
it came in quick. First of all, it came in quick,
which is wow OK, but second of all, thank you Impressed with
the public and now I'm impressedwith the using one.
I know why in that order. It's it's kind of a small feat

(06:28):
to get anything from T public ontime even though the shipping is
ridiculous. I've got all the face.
That's the call back. Yeah, no kidding.
Thanks, Thomas. It'll always be with me.
Maybe there's more feisty friendlies.
I mean, I thought you're going to say the obvious thing.
Do I have a feisty friendly for you my friend?
OK, well one. It's a little racist, Bridget,
against New Yorkers. So Rob, right.

(06:57):
Don't let me. Yeah, Rob.
Rob. Would you like some glob?
A glob lob Luke life thing? See, guys, I'm being a feisty
friendly. You are, because I am friendly.
But that was a little feisty. Sorry.
I think I might have had too much coffee.

(07:18):
I'm so sorry. Sorry.
Oh my gosh, OK, I can't laugh because it's going to result
like quite the coughing fit. But there's the obvious the the
feisty friendly was the the Walker battle, the arena battle.
But the feisty friendly that I enjoyed the most was the Dhamma
with Negan. Like nothing that they said to

(07:39):
each other was inappropriate or mean, but it was all veiled.
Very mean. It was so veiled.
It was the. Meanest non mean interaction.
I know it was like praying for you.
Whatever you say, boss. And then it's like, oh, your
family must be in the Appalachians.
Don't. You shut your mouth.
She's a New Yorker, so we say Appalachian.

(07:59):
Shut your mouth well. You know what's so funny about
that? Lisa Emery having played a
hillbilly. Technically, right?
Hillbilly saying it the way New Yorker would say it.
Yeah, it's definitely a New Yorkthing.
You know what the irony of feisty friendly is?
The literal feisty, friendly Tony whom we find out at the end
of the episode is or was Bruegels bodyguard.

(08:21):
Sorry, that was mean and feisty,that was.
Aggressive. That was very aggressive.
I'm so very aggressive. He was anything but feisty.
Oh, he. Was so timid.
That made me so upset. Remind me of something because
I've been reading. I went back to a series of books
that I had stopped reading, not for any particular reason, just

(08:41):
because I get distracted, but they're the Mountain Man books
it they're by Kenneth C Blackmore.
I've talked about them before but it was like years ago.
You have, yeah. Probably when I like first
started on the podcast was probably the last time I was
reading them. Anyway, I'm on book three.
I think it's a little bit hard. It's a little bit hard to figure
out where because like it's beena little bit confusing.

(09:02):
But anyway, it's called Halifax,It's about Halifax.
All of these books take place Canada.
It's about Halifax in Canada. And the main, the main character
of this book is not the main character from the first two.
It's like one of the side characters from the first two
that you don't hear all that much about, but he's chasing

(09:23):
essentially he's chasing your serial killer.
It's where I'll where I'll leavethat point of the plot.
Anyway, just got to a part in the book where he is traveling
through a city and zombies are frozen under the snow and he
walks on top of them and it wakes them up.
Hey, Angel. It wakes them up and they all
come out of the ice and they're like kind of frozen.
So they're like moving kind of weird, by the way, there's a ton

(09:44):
of them. He wakes.
It's kind of like the scene in The Last of Us.
Like, all of a sudden there's like all of these everywhere.
And he determines at the time helike hides in a house.
And this is like, it's many, many chapters of like trying to
find a place to hide. They keep finding him.
They're like following him. Finally, he finds a house that
he's able to like, hide out in. And he covers himself in zombie

(10:06):
guts to try this out to see if it's like going to work.
He doesn't know if it's going towork or not, but based on the
theories that him and his friends have come up with, he
thinks maybe. So he tries it and he's walking
successfully for a long time. And all of a sudden he turns
around and he realizes one of them is looking right at him and
is making a beeline for him. And he like, he's like, OK, it's

(10:26):
just in my head, like he'll stop.
So he keeps moving and he keeps checking back every once in a
while, and they're still and they're gaining on him.
It's a they or. OK, over and over and over again
this this zombie is gaining on him.
So finally he goes into a house and he sits on the stairs and he
waits with his gun and the zombie comes in and she's like
wait no stop I'm and he's like he can't comprehend.

(10:50):
That a zombie? What's?
Happening because it's it's talking and he's like, I don't
doesn't make any sense anyway, it's a woman and she's living
like the Whisperers, but not really because it's like a
Halloween mask that she found it's.
Just gone on. It's like Mike Myers.
Yeah, that she covers with, like, yeah, right.
She's just. Yeah, she's Mike.
Myers Terrible. Anyway, that reminded me of that

(11:12):
like the because he has this whole episode after that where
he becomes overwhelmed with the fact that they are walking
through a huge crowd of zombies and anything that he does wrong
could kill them. And mentally he has a break and
he like falls to his knees and he can't even like verbally
communicate anymore. It's it's intense, like.
To bring it back to the episode so it.

(11:32):
Reminded me of Tony this like this, like broken shell of a
person. Like pretending to be 1 for that
long. Probably just broke him.
Or well, I can I just say I hadn't thought of this until you
just said. I love how you telling that
story made me think of somethingbecause you were describing

(11:56):
basically the idea of being the because we've discussed this
before, the constant your heart rates at a constant pace you
can't quite settle, constant cortisol pumping.
And now it makes me talk about upset.
Imagine how Maggie must feel allthe time, admitting to Armstrong
that very fact that I'm terrified all the time.

(12:17):
Maybe not about walkers, but right.
We all agree that Maggie and TheWalking Dead was kind of a
badass. She could walk the universe
through the universe. It's really the people that
really kind of got to her. And prior to Herschel being
born, it's like, it's like your heart is now on the outside of
your body moving around and you can't account for the it's
actions and you are on constant high like now it's not only

(12:42):
heart rate is up about yourself,your heart rate's up about your
kid. And Armstrong puts a finger on
it. And so isn't Tony a mirror for
Maggie in that sense? Tony's purpose was to be loyal
to the end, to do this thing andhe could survive safely.
But at the same time, at Bruegel's will and Maggie at the
same time, just having to do just to be that way in terror.

(13:03):
But all the time. It's such a it's it is such a
great mirror. It basically Bruegel's monologue
at the end is kind of like, you know, I at least you had AI gave
you the biggest gift of all, a purpose.
That was pretty good, right? It was really good.
That was great. Thank you.
Thank you. I loved it.
And, well, it's kind of like thethumb in the eye, isn't it?

(13:24):
For Maggie, It's like, well, some purpose.
Terrible. Yeah, I have a question.
This is an actual question. I don't know if this is the case
or not, but in this episode, it's almost like she cannot say
Glenn's name. Yeah.
Has that been a running theme for her?
It's a licensing thing. I'm just kidding.
I'm kidding. Season desist.
Season desist, Maggie. I feel like I feel like we've

(13:49):
heard her say it recently, like at least on at least on this
series. I mean, maybe not this season,
but now I'm now I'm really trying to.
It's just. Because, she says, like
Herschel's dad. Right.
He gave it to me. She doesn't like come out and
say Glenn. So I'm just, I was just curious

(14:09):
if that was like a thing. When she says that, she's
talking to Pearly, right? Pearly doesn't know who Glenn
is, so she can't say he killed Glenn because that means nothing
to Pearly. I feel like, man, now, now
you've really got my gears turned.
And I really, I feel like she's,I feel like I've heard her say
it. I feel like we did at the end,

(14:31):
at least the last season of Walking Dead, right?
Yeah, I don't know. But you know what?
I've heard other people. Say it a lot.
Wasn't it this more of a question of why do you think
that is? No, it was just it was one of
those things that I like, I noticed it in this episode and I
was like, that's really weird. And the only reason I noticed it
is because she hesitated so muchon the candy bar conversation.

(14:53):
And here's the thing, like you're right, Rachel, like from
an audience perspective, that makes sense, right?
Like she wouldn't say Glenn to Pearly because he doesn't know
who Glenn is. But from like a normal
conversational standpoint, people who do not know my
husband's name, I sometimes willsay Travis because saying my
husband all the time seems weirdto me and like kind of
pretentious, like in a way like,oh, you plebes don't have a

(15:15):
husband and I. Do.
I don't know. I don't like it.
So sometimes, sometimes I say, I'll just say Travis.
And my assumption is that if I'msaying that and I have a wedding
band on and you know that I'm married, that you probably
assume that that's my husband. You can make some inferences.
Yeah, Right. Yeah.
Yeah. I she, she also didn't say my

(15:35):
husband. He only referred to it as
Herschel's dad. We have to think of the
conversation though, too. In that conversation, she was
remembering a time before Glenn was even in her memory and she
was thinking of a a good time before the before times,
everybody, the before times. Give me a break season desist
YouTube says wait to be saying that.

(15:56):
I feel like I feel like this took place during two different
conversations. It did.
There's a candy bar conversationand then, but there's.
Also the Negan conversation, I know she was trying to also
justify what she had done, trying to justify what she had
done to Negan. The swap yeah exactly to Pearly

(16:17):
in a way which is like why one. Well, that's for us is to kind
of inform us that they finally had a conversation about Negan
because they probably thought they didn't have to have one
until now. And we didn't.
Technically it would have been fine, but it's OK.
It's OK that it happened. Yeah, yeah, but you know what
they people would be like? How?

(16:38):
Well, how does Armstrong know that Negan is still around?
If I didn't see it, it didn't happen.
You're so dumb. Why did the show like, properly
convey the right amount of information for people to know
things? But also you have too much
exposition. Yeah, see, you can't please
everybody. Wow.
Real critics am I? Am I right?

(16:58):
Am I right? Dama's got your number, baby.
Well, I'll say this much, I justwant to go back to the candy bar
conversation because you see Maggie kind of ease up.
You see a different color on Maggie when she talks about the
four times. I like the little they pull the
fire alarm thing. It was cute.
It's like the unison. Alarm.

(17:18):
It's a bell. It's a bell that and like she
does like the hand motion. It was.
It was very cute. Yeah, well, it's like us, isn't
it? We're like, Oh yeah, it's
obvious, right? Oh, it's not obvious.
And how do I explain it to somebody who doesn't know?
You know that bell in the bricksthat we ring when there's a fire
to tell people to get to hiding?It's like that, but mechanical.

(17:42):
All right, let's move on. So that's staying in.
All of it's staying in because everybody a little bit of
housekeeping in case you didn't know.
Surprise. We will be releasing The Last of
US's Season 2 finale as well as this episode completely unedited
on pop pop podcast platforms, including What I Just Did Now

(18:03):
You. Get all of that.
It was fun. It was like a.
Cause podcast platforms it's like a.
Lovely mess ups. Yeah, including that one.
So the only thing is I would like to know one way or the
other whether you like that for the people who are listening on
the audio only and the Spotify video, if you like that or not.
Not, I'd like to hear about it. And if we get likes, we get it.

(18:25):
If we get enough likes of likingthe unedited version of this
episode, I will continue doing it that way.
It works for me. Either way.
My main goal has been always to give you the best product as
humanly possible for the time constraints that we have.
And my every wish is to give youmore and more quality all the

(18:45):
time within my power. However, if you prefer the
unedited version, I'm not going to step on that.
And if you like it, it's easier for me to do.
And so I would love very much ifyou are watching this on YouTube
as a live stream, tell us in thecomments.
If we get enough comments from different people across all
platforms, I would in again, if there is no comment section in

(19:06):
the podcast platform you're listening on, head over to
ratethispodcast.com/squawk. I'd say something nice just to
kind of please the gods, right? You know, saying the five stars
and the whole thing. You leave emoji.
You cannot leave an emoji. That's fine.
But also tell us if you like theunedited versions or you like
the edited versions and hopefully we'll get something
out of it. Tell us by next episode release,

(19:29):
because that's going to be the Terminator.
If we don't hear anything or if you don't hear enough, we won't
do it. We'll go back to torture again.
But I torture myself, or I. Say I like how you say we, but
it's really you. It's really interesting, but
it's. Just you it's.
To defray the onus. So everyone tell David how much
you appreciate the unedited version because you love hearing
every every single thing, everything we say, all the mess

(19:51):
ups see like that. Words are hard.
I can't. I can't.
Always. I can't always word.
Say Bruegel again. Say it again.
Bugle Bugles. Which is brews, rich is brew.
Bruegels Bagels. Whoa, she kind of did it.

(20:12):
She did say it, she said. Bruegels Bagels.
Bruegels Bagels Which? Isn't right, but it's close
enough. That's what I got to stick with.
Bagels will work. On Bruegels.
Bagels will work on but the Bruegel.
Can't take that over. It's fine.
It's fine. I'm not interested in the bagel.
It's a bagel, but it's. Fine, it's fine, it's fine.

(20:32):
I beggars can't be choose. It's fine, but Neo just said New
York. I like either edit or unedited.
I can't decide. Guess I'd vote for.
Edited. And then Rob said I don't mind
the unedited. Rob likes live streams, baby.
And we love Rob and we still love Neo, even.
In the comment section, we stillwhen you have a chance in the

(20:54):
comment section. I appreciate that.
Wrong. Is that everybody?
What's that? Is that not the comments?
Well, we need it in the comment comments because of the
algorithm. Because of the algorithm, right?
And, you know, actually, that's the point actually, when people
start weighing in on that particular thing, other people
might dogpile on to that commentsaying this or that, which is
fine, perfect, beautiful. Yeah, exactly.

(21:15):
Fantastic. Starts a conversation.
OK in an argument maybe? OK all.
Right. Cool.
Do all of that. Let's briefly, I mean briefly
talk about Dasha. Narvaez right or dasha fine.
First of all, her yes Sir was soI mean obviously fake.

(21:36):
In the theme of this episode, people not meet me.
Nice. Friendly.
Nice, friendly, nice catch. Yeah, I.
We really see enough, right? So I, I kind of was under the
impression, Oh my gosh. Napoleon.
Pearly was going to go do whatever and then she was going
to rally up whoever and go off in a different direction.

(21:59):
Hands down. I thought that that's what was
going to happen. We can all agree, yeah, she's
going to mutiny. Oh.
For sure, for sure. After the Ginny convo, she has
an excuse now because she appeals to authority because if
if Armstrong isn't aligned with the New Babylon Federation's
mission and she's he's being Co opted by another force, maybe

(22:21):
he's with Bruegel's Bagels and everybody else.
I want that to stick now. I know, me too.
So I know this is this is terrible.
This I can't believe I have to ask this question because I know
we saw it, but Negan did. Did Negan kill her dad?
We saw that go down, right? We did not see it, but he did

(22:43):
say it. That's why the New Babylon
Federation is after him or what he's well, they're not after him
now because he's dead. Quote UN quote.
Because Pearly killed him. Quote UN Quote Remember the.
Negan for a while. Why am I?
Why is my brain not? Brain, let's catch you up then.
It's fine because when Negan killed her father, he realized

(23:04):
that he left a child and so he took the child in afterwards,
never telling her that that thathad occurred until the end of
the last season. That's right.
That's right. Thank you.
I just needed a little refresherbecause I'm like.
Do not mind, because I'll tell you what, some people do forget
and your question makes it so that we can catch them up.
I always love that. Yeah, for sure.

(23:25):
Who doesn't like mansplaining? I don't mind being the dumb one.
When you say that also, that's that was going to be my tattoo
for you. The.
Dumb one. No, just drawing.
Draw like a brain. You you so smart.
No, I'm not. That's.
What I was going to say, you're so smart with like a little
exclamation point and a little heart into the no.
No, no, I want you to put the dumb one.

(23:49):
Absolutely not. I hate it.
I hate that for me. I hate that for you.
And you know what? Folks in the chat tell Rachel
how smart she actually is. If you, if you mean it like if
you don't mean it, it's fine. Hey now, you will not talk about
my friend that way, ma'am, let's.
Move on those. Are smart and some are like just
know your limits right? Like.

(24:10):
If you're dumb then I'm dumb, soshut up.
Well, I'm. You're not Leslie.
Nope. I'm smart and I know that you're
not dumb. How about that?
Oh, there you go. Honestly, I've tied my your
smartness to my intelligence. So hey, Kayla, it's it's pretty
tough line to draw now. OK.
This is why you're wrong, Dave. Anyway.
Hey, Kayla. Anyway.

(24:31):
Mutiny. Yeah, for sure.
Yes, but then there there's the question of did Ginny tell
Nirvaez? Or was or was the look back
enough confirmation for her to mute me anyway?
Exactly. I'm curious.
Yeah, I feel like she's looking for.
She would have taken any excuse.It's not going to take much to
push her over that edge. Oh yeah, the fact that he stood

(24:51):
up against her when she was trying to mandate that they just
take over. What are we calling them?
New Babylon the. Foragers.
Oh, the foragers. Foragers.
That's what the crew called them, so I just went with that.
It's easier. That makes sense.
Forest. People, you know, there also is
the question that entered my mind.

(25:11):
Did she take the weapon and it wasn't meant for Negan?
Could this be a story she tells Nirviahs?
And could this be for something else?
It could because. You know, shows like to
misdirect us and, and especiallythe people whom they're talking
to. So anything is possible on that
front. Maybe, but I feel like it would
be more of a risk for her to admit that Negan is still alive.

(25:35):
It would it would make more sense for her to lie about not
killing him, him making up a story about someone else.
Because I mean why? Why spill the beans that Negan
is still alive? Unless, unless it's by design
somehow. Do you think Negan maybe got a
message out to Ginny somehow, same way that Dhamma did to

(25:55):
Herschel or implanted to suggest?
I don't know. I don't think so.
It was the other reason that there was.
Right, Herschel sent a message to Dhamma the.
Yeah, yeah. Fire, discovery, fire.
Wow. I mean, I have no words for
this, though. It's so it's so odd.
Not odd. It's heartbreaking.
I mean, you do see. Well, first of all, we we
established that for sure. Herschel's been, or at least

(26:17):
attempted to be, brainwashed. We don't know how far that's
held. And it's clear that Herschel
from the story with the lightning bug, not fireflies,
everybody not Fireflies, that hedid that to cheer his mother up
rather than do it on his own. Which means what?
It tells us one thing. It tells us that all he's ever
tried to do is make her happy. And maybe that's still happening

(26:38):
here, too. Is that possible?
Unless you've lost hope for Herschel.
Well, I mean, Rachel and I didn't have much hope for
Herschel to begin with, but go ahead, Rachel.
I heard. I heard you.
So I knew I knew something. I know it's I do need to process
sometimes and I don't really, I don't know where it's going.
Like, I don't like having these thoughts that don't have any

(27:01):
place to go because he obviouslyhas this connection, these, this
feeling for the Dhamma. We don't, I mean, we kind of
know why, but I don't, I still don't feel like we've seen
everything that has happened between the two of them, right?
We we just barely scratched the surface of what what those two
were were doing or talking about.

(27:21):
I don't know. The more you say, the more.
I know it's so disgusting and I'm grossed out by myself, but
clearly Hersh will feel something for her.
I just don't know if it's going to be strong enough for him to
completely backstab his mother. You know?
No matter how mad he is at Maggie, I don't, but then he did
set the tires on fire. So I don't I don't know how far

(27:43):
he's willing to go. And I mean, this is kind of
reminiscent of comic book Herschel being a little poo poo
head. You know, look at me not
swearing in like a like evil, evil way, right?
The comic book Herschel was justhe was more of a nuisance due to
head. But this Herschel's has the
potential to seriously cause damage.

(28:05):
Yeah, like in a personal way. Yeah, that's right.
I mean, depending on how mad he is at his mom, he could really
screw things up. I mean, what if he told Dhamma
that they're going to go destroyor they're not destroyed,
they're going to go steal the methane?
What if you told her that? Oh well, yeah.
Oh yeah, Because we didn't see what that interaction was also

(28:26):
exactly. Yeah, and now they're walking
into a trap. Let me backtrack just a little
bit because I noticed something.One of the little frames that we
have in our title sequence from when we first start up is the
frame of Carl punching Herschel in the face.
But I noticed Herschel's dress was kind of like Bruegel's
dress, and I thought that was a little interesting dress.

(28:49):
What? What?
His type of dress, his his little tuxedo Y outfit.
Like he's not wearing a dress. Maybe you aren't the dumb one.
At all, David, At best. At best.
That's a tunic, Dave. A.
A tunic. A tunic, say it right, A tunic.
A. Tunic.
Oh no, it's a tunic. No, his type of dress was a

(29:12):
tuxedo. It was like this very collary
black jacket, pinstripe pants. Kind of like a sophisticated
ringleader of a circus, right? That's what he's going for,
Haute Ringleader. Haute ringleader.
Yeah, that's right. Hot cotu tunic.

(29:32):
But yeah, I, I so I just thoughtthat was amusing to me a little
evoking a little bit of the comic book panels.
I don't know. I don't.
I don't really see it going thatway.
There's clearly turmoil in Herschel.
I don't know if it's too late, though.
Which is a whole other ball of wax.
He clearly was telling her that to tell her.
Yeah. For the longest time I was
trying to cheer you up. But just like Tony Baloney, the

(29:56):
Walkeroni, she was trapped in terror.
She's trapped in time, even frozen in that moment ever
since. Well, we don't say his name
passed. He who shall not be named.
Oh, that's a terrible way of referring to it.
Do you want me to go into Bruegel's name?
Why? Oh yeah, kind of got some
significance. Yeah, Bruegel bagel.

(30:16):
So bangle. I will not gross second boil.
You. What does that mean?
Boil you and put you in an oven.No, wait a second, wait a
minute. Wait a second.
You have to. You have to.
You have to. Proof this dough bagel.
I hardly know her anyway. Go ahead.
So he's named after, and I doubtthis is his real name, but he's

(30:38):
named after Peter Bruegel or Bruegel the Elder.
He is a Dutch Flemish Renaissance painter.
In the mid 1500s Lance he painted huge landscapes, one of
the first people to do so, but containing peasant scenes,
basically ordinary people ratherthan the wealthy.
He moved, he did some religious work, but he focused most of his

(30:59):
art on ordinary people in large canvases.
Not just one person. No one subjects, no portraits.
The masses. Bridges just likes this.
Bridget likes the masses. Yeah, if you've ever heard
Lucian right. Yeah.
And the thing about him not doing portraits is it goes
against what the kind of Dutch mainstay was.
Which Dutch, The Dutch people excelled at portraits, I think.

(31:20):
Was it like Whistler's mother? I think was a Dutch painter as
well. His paintings contain Yeah,
right. His paintings contain
observational humor and attempt at social commentary as well.
Well, and who was that? If not I'm how's the trial?
The traffic wasn't too bad anyway.
On social commentary. Exactly, focusing on quirks and

(31:43):
foibles of human existence rather than perfection or
beauty. Kind of the thing we brought up
when we brought up Goya is aboutwell, rather than we're awesome,
humans are great, piety, really.Sunbeams are blasting out of my
ears. No brutal, brutal burgle.
It's just all about the the illsof society, how ordinary people
have it bad and it's not all sunshine and rainbows and light

(32:06):
beams coming out of your eyeballs.
I have Wikipedia link but I'm not going to read.
It I have things to say about that.
And hi, Jason Cohn. Hey, Jason Cohn, Hi.
Jason. Hey, rock monster.
So that's really interesting because he's a representation
of, as the crowd says, he's new money.
That's another thing. And I I would bet money that he

(32:27):
came from low income and this isall for show because he couldn't
access it before. So to like know the listing cost
of like the painting to attribute that old world
monetary value to it, this all screams new money, definitely.

(32:49):
Let's put a button on that because here's the thing I can
tell you from my own experience,I work in it and I had to in my
early days, I had to go to many homes of rich people with multi
floor apartments in Manhattan. And the thing about and I this
is not a commentary about rich people.
Oh, eat the rich horns up. No, it's not about that.

(33:10):
But. Hell yeah, brother.
That was wild. I did notice that.
That was insane, I loved it. There's one thing about social
like NYC socialite society. I'm not saying high society, but
they have this interesting kind of insulated or insular view of
life. They don't know anything outside
their own circles. I mean, you could say that about
anybody, but there is a distorted sense of reality when

(33:32):
it comes to people who are up there.
Not Brugal per SE though, because like you said, when he
mentions the price tag, rich people don't talk about how much
things cost. No, do you remember like this is
like a more relevant, like example of this is when COVID
started and celebrities were like, what will help?
What will help the poors? I know let's sing them imagined

(33:55):
by John Lennon and everyone was like, this is what is this 1-2?
Why? And it's not it's it's not what
we wanted or needed. And you're in your mansion by
yourself, and I hate you so muchright now.
Yeah, I could feel you going like rushing into this being
like, wait, wait, wait, wait. Hold on a second.
How do I say this in a way that doesn't make me look like an

(34:16):
asshole? Me.
Yeah, I mean a little bit. You're like, I can't wait to
tell you about this thing we hadaway.
Sure. Anyway.
No, no, no, I'm right. It was not.
It was tone deaf. But.
Politicians showing their doublefreezers of ice cream.
Oh yeah, ice cream. Here, let me show you.
I just need. I'm like the regular people.

(34:37):
I need a sweet treat at night. Sweet treats.
Well, yeah, that's cool. I am struggling to get my
prescriptions at the pharmacy and my heart device went off.
But like, cool you, I guess you're also feeling the
pandemic. That face.
What if it froze on that face? This one.

(35:01):
Sorry, audio podcast, can't get that.
Do you only get that sweet sweetface on YouTube and Spotify
video? Yep.
So I don't. Ever.
It's not that. Do you think it's that?
It's not that? It's the opposite of that.
That old man puppet face that What's that guy who does the
puppet's his name? Walt.

(35:22):
Walt. Is the puppet name.
No. No, I don't remember his name.
He has the skeleton one that goes anyway.
Oh, Jeff. Dunham, Jeff.
Dunham Wow, just that enough wasenough.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Anyway, so moving along. Jeff Dunham.
But it's the thing it's it's it's very interesting that his
character is is saying it like it is because that's what Burgle

(35:44):
the elder was trying to do as well.
Is that's really interesting, which ties into what which ties
into modernism. I.
Love that. I love that so much.
That's really cool. Hey.
Hey, guys. Did you mean to do that?
Mikey? Mikey, did you?
I just. Like picked a guy and just named
him that guy. Guys stop reading into it too

(36:04):
much. Bridges every fear.
I love it though, it's cool. Yeah, I was getting some serious
Willy Wonka in the Apocalypse vibes.
Oh, the costuming was superb. I have to say it was really
great. I really enjoyed it.
I feel like this the ringleader comment has shattered it for me.

(36:28):
Now that's all I'm going to picture.
But I I've almost felt like it was like like a form of like
dandy. Well, it's funny you mentioned
that because that's how Kim Coates referred to brutal as in
some of the panels he actually calls himself a dandy, so you
can see. That yeah, it's, I feel like
he's well portrayed. Well portrayed.

(36:49):
This much methane we might powera toaster.
That was hilarious. I loved it.
So many great. He's like, I joke.
I joke. Yeah.
I kid, I kid. You're.
Like what? What?
Who is this guy who's his caricature of a person?
I love it. He got really uncomfortable when
he was mocking the Croat. Oh.
Oh, that accent. I'm not making fun, but it's

(37:12):
exactly interesting. Carrot.
Can I have a carrot? It pleases me to have a carrot.
What is that Serbian? I know, I know.
I was like. Whoa.
He knew what he was doing there.Woof.
I mean, he's called. He has no other name but the
curl. Yeah, like.
He did it on purpose, he obviously did it on.

(37:33):
Purpose Serbian. But by the way, I wouldn't blame
him if he did make that mistake because again, I feel like I'm
pointing out the obvious, but the rumor is true.
New Yorkers think they're the center of the universe.
And I'll tell you, I'm not goingto call out friends or family
members directly, but I'll say, how's your time in Chicago, that

(37:54):
state, Atlanta, that country? The state furnishings.
As their own and like own land masses, you know.
What I mean, it's because for you guys, like the city is its
own. You're like, this is New York.
Do you visit? London or England, Did you?
How is that city, you know? London or England?

(38:15):
You know what? They'll refer again, they'll
refer to whole land masses as a city.
Incredulously. So that brought me back to my
time in Chicago. Oh, where is that?
It's the whole country right now.
Then. Now I'm just being ridiculous.
OK. But like that vibe, that vibe,
but like, but like also, but there's also that sense of is

(38:37):
this an act? Is this more of an act?
Or is this more of like just theway he is?
Because there seems to be some intention to it.
Yeah. Oh yeah, definitely.
Well, there's a lot of trying toimpress the Dhamma.
Obviously I did enjoy. I couldn't overhear exactly what
he said. But when he takes her, she's
like, show me around and he's like, Oh my darling, I will.

(38:59):
And then he goes to take her offand I was he talking about the
Goya? He couldn't decide between the
what Goya to give her. Yes, exactly and right, which
tells you two things. One that he has more than one.
Oh yeah. All right, awesome.
But two, he's like, I couldn't decide between the dog eating
the chicken and then it trails off.
And of course, the one she got in the end.

(39:21):
I had a few thoughts about that,but let me, before I go to the
thoughts, tell you what she whathe means by the dog eating the
chicken. It's unclear whether this is
what's being depicted in the painting that he's talking
about, but the painting is a Goya and it's called the dog.
And it's a kind of a silhouette of a dog against a kind of dark

(39:41):
earth and yellow sky. And the dog appears to the
viewer in many different ways one could be perceived.
And this is the popular consensus is that the dog is
falling in quicksand, right? Because the yellow sky looks
like it's, you know, it's, it's like, and it's the dog is
looking up at the heavens, whichwhich signifies man's brutal

(40:04):
struggle against the malevolent forces.
And as he looks up as. And does in a foxhole, if
there's no atheist in foxholes, it's man's looking to the
heavens for a savior and not getting one.
And which again, to go back to the theme of that, it's the idea
of modernism is that this is theway things are rather than we
wish for them to be. But another interpretation, A

(40:25):
lesser popular interpretation isthe dog appears to have maybe in
the silhouette, something in itsmouth and the dog is ripping
apart a chicken essentially. And under the cover of this
black land mass, let's say, which also signifies that the
dog's brutality, right, to get what he wants.
So it's also that. And I just love how casually

(40:48):
he's talking. But here's the thought.
The thought is it's not only what the way I wish things to
be. The Bruegel is saying this by
way of giving her the Dom of thepainting.
Jason Rock Monster tipped $20 just to say it out loud for
everybody else. Thank you, Jason, for tipping us
on stream. See what happens is a GIF of

(41:09):
Nicholas saying thank you to Glenn before he does the
dumpster dive thing. Gosh.
Appears so. Much and then we say the thing
out loud. Thank you Jason.
I appreciate that thank you rockmonster.
I love that. I love that for us.
So it's not only about what he wants in New York, the shared
vision of a modernist New York, It's also what he thinks about

(41:29):
her. He thinks she is a vicious,
vicious, horrible human being who's willing to go to the mat
because of the Goya pointing painting he actually gave her.
She's willing to eat her own children to get what she wants
to live forever. She's willing to sacrifice the
future to live forever. That's what he thinks of her,
you know, and he could have chosen just, you know, average

(41:51):
brutality. That's the way life is.
You know, the dog with the chicken or the dog dying,
essentially. So now he chose he chose
violence. I think he chose correctly.
I think he chose correctly too. It's very informative.
Jason. I know right?
There you go. It happened.
When you stepped away. It's cost $20.
Yeah. And by the way, well, this is a
good reminder as Eddie, if you happen to tip us on stream, your

(42:13):
message will show up and speak out loud.
So when you tip us, thank you. First of all, again, not first
of all, third of all, again, I said it 3 or 4 times.
Thank you, Jason. Thank you, Jason, for the $20.
Your message will not only show up on screen, not only will a
jiff of Nicholas saying thank you to Glenn show up on the
screen, really, if you happen toinclude a message with your tip,
it'll be read out loud by that robotic e-mail voice too.

(42:36):
And it'll interrupt us completely.
Did. He did he What was his message?
There was no message, but he said Jason Rock Monster tipped
$20, which is what he chose. Is the name nice?
I love it, he loves it. I love it.
He loves her to talk about Mr. Pierce.
OK, OK, hopefully you're thinking the same thing I am.
Probably not because, well, I don't know, you and I were

(42:59):
pretty on the same wavelength quite a bit this weekend, but
we're not in the, you know, sameproximity anymore.
So we may have lost that connection.
We may have lost. That powers we may have lost.
Our twin powers. No, I just.
I'm really enjoying Mr. Pierce. I feel like I want to endow him
with a certain amount of plot armor, but I don't think he's

(43:20):
going to have it, if I'm being honest.
I think they're going to keep this character around just long
enough for us to to enjoy him, and then they're going to say,
done, you're dead. So maybe like next episode if
we're going like every two episodes.
Maybe, maybe, but we might need to see a little bit more for
you. He did have quite a few lines
this episode so. Wait, when did when did Victor

(43:42):
die? Yeah.
Two second episode. Two.
OK, Yeah. Can I just say there's I could
go this way or that and there's some evidence for that the.
As far as what his death? Well, let's go with him living,
OK? If the Dhamma, apparently
according to the Crow as they'restuffing him into the trunk, is
about to arrange for better accommodations, well then she

(44:04):
may be pulling upon Pierce the same treatment she gave her.
Sarcastic though, didn't it? But.
You can never tell with the cry.He's so straight laced.
It's true. He's obviously not.
He's obviously being a little ridiculous.
Unless he's not and that's just him and he's cringe.

(44:24):
I. Feel like Sadama's the kind of
character that would see the value that Mr. Pierce is
offering, right? This this kind of stuff should
be documented. I should interject the one thing
that Eli Jornay said in the episode or insider der and he
said that to pair with the discovery that Benjamin Pierce
makes and relays to the audience, including Negan, that

(44:46):
the dama is a critic, part of her superpower, kind of like
Megan is drawing out the full potential of someone.
And if that's the case. Through abrasive criticism.
Well, through the power, the power of criticism, the power
friendship, no, he also added anaddendum.
It could be it may be in their self-interest, it may not be in

(45:07):
their self-interest. It may be in herself interest,
but regardless, that's her superpower is that she will draw
upon a person's full potential to and I'm guessing to serve her
needs and only her needs to eat their children.
Whatever, we're going to go by the Goya painting.
So This is why I'm saying I can go either way because I also had
that premonition as well. There's another bit of evidence

(45:28):
that goes your way, Rachel, which is what did the people who
made the show do to make me mad?Right before the main battle
biter, not the main one with between the tow truck Walker and
Tony, but the the first one thatthey have that Tony, Tony
obviously wins. They play Bach right before they

(45:48):
go into the stadium. That made me.
Why is that? Why does that make me mad?
I don't know. Because Victor love Bach.
So wait, let's connect it now. Let's connect the dots.
Well, what happened to Joan? What happened to Victor?
These are people of a certain age who survived, who were born

(46:10):
slightly before the apocalypse and who made it yay far.
And that really breaks my heart.Now Benjamin Pierce, we don't
know if he's the same age I but I would conjecture.
A little younger. He's, yeah, he's either at the
same age or a little younger, ormaybe, I mean, he's definitely
older than he has a he. Definitely has a baby face.
No, you know, what if Herschel was born two or three, you could

(46:31):
say three years into the apocalypse because, you know,
nine months to have a baby, etcetera, right?
So he's definitely older than Herschel.
And if that's the case, odds arehe was either born right when it
happened or just before. I feel like he might have said
something. Judas Age.
Well, Jews was also born after the apocalypse though.
But like. Like, yeah, right.
At the beginning or do you see that the first year?

(46:53):
Do you see that though? I feel like the actor is older
than Kaylee, but then again, Kaylee would be older in the
scenario. He's not old enough to have any
sort of memories of the old world, that's certain.
That makes sense. We had a giant time jump too, so
it's like throwing off because Kaylee isn't Kaylee's.
Irrelevant. To this I feel like 17 PDA.

(47:13):
Older than Kaylee at this point.Yeah, I mean, according to Dead
City, sure, right. That's what, Yeah, that's what
I'm saying. Although is it?
Didn't Kaylee just have a big birthday?
She's 18. I think yes, she has the
balloons. Yeah, yeah.
So that, well, I'm glad we brought that up.
I would say that Benjamin Pierceis older than that though,
because technically Kaylee is older than.

(47:35):
What was the time jump, Judith? I'm saying Judith is older than
Kaylee. Yeah, because what was the time
jump? 16.
Years. It's 17 PDI, so it's the 17th
years into the apocalypse. I mean, he's older than 17.
Benjamin Pierce. Yeah, Oh yeah, just.
According to this and. We try to do it against people's
ages on the show, but it's, well, let's just go with the
show logic at this point there's.
Always like my mile marker. Yeah, I know, I know.

(47:58):
Well, we have to see what's what.
I'll say there has been criticism about Maggie saying
three years in when it came to the candy bar and referring to
Glenn having given it, kind of forgetting what she was talking
about at the time and remembering the last time she
had a candy bar and it being herhusband.
So people were like, if it's twoyears in, how could it be 3

(48:19):
years? I mean, the only way I can
explain that away is that maybe she's saying it's in.
It was in the third year of the apocalypse after the second one
had passed. That's a good way of saying.
That, or here's another way to explain it away when she talks
to Herschel. She.
Says, do you remember? And he's like, yeah, you say I
was 5 or 6, but I think I was older than that.

(48:40):
So you have to remember they don't get on their cell phone
every day and know what day it is.
I'm so glad you said that because because somebody did
bring that up, but more in the context of how trauma distorts
memories or. It does 100%.
How you remember things differently?
And you can, I'm sorry, but like.
Thank you, Bridget. There's just, you can't, there's

(49:03):
no way that if you are fighting every day just to stay alive
that you are going to remember what year something happened.
It's all going to blur together.You're lucky that she was even
in the remote vicinity of it. And also they have messed with
that timeline so many times. So there's also that AMC little
bit on you. But like what Scott Gimple said

(49:24):
at the premiere, he said, well, time is a feeling.
Time is. Relative where they were like
they were like one year after wait, let's scrub that let's
scrub that from the episode. We don't want that in there
anymore. Yeah, all.
Right, you guys, I'm going to goto bed.
Yeah, OK. Before you go, I want to
actually leave you with this Rachel.
One thing, one thing that occurred when we were talking,

(49:46):
when Nevaez was talking about her back story, my, my instinct
was to think Princess AKA Juanita Sanchez.
But really, isn't that Rick's story when he comes to
Alexandria? He looked like an animal, and
Deanna kind of brought him back.I felt like that story mirrored
Rick's in that way. I thought you'd appreciate that,

(50:07):
bringing that up. And of course, then I look at
the pistol a whole other way because then it kind of sort of
looks like Rick's Colt Python. I mean, in the flashy, ornate
gun situation. Pretty.
It is pretty. Yeah.
There you go. Law and Order saved her and sort
of saved Rick. Good night everybody.
Good night Rachel, I wish we could see you waving goodbye to

(50:27):
all the lovely peoples, including us.
I'm doing the supermarket sweep wave.
Which we'll see in the audio podcast, by the way.
So that's great. If you love everyone, don't
move. She loves you guys.
I literally stopped moving too. I'm like, oh wait, we.
Can't see you? Wait.
Hold on. All right.

(50:49):
Good night, Rachel. Good.
Night you guys love. You bye, bye.
And then there were the two dummies.
OK. I've got a lot to give you from
Sharon. Do you if you want to go there
right away? OK, I'm going to give you a
heads up before you go into this.
Is that I was tempted to get a list of the paintings that were

(51:11):
flashing across the scene at right before they show the
painting you're about to talk about with Washington crossing
the Delaware. However, I did not.
I stopped at the first one, which was Salome.
Yeah, it was 1899, I think it was with the head on the
platter, basically. Salome's revenge, essentially.
I wanted to also, but like I said, I finished the episode
right literally right before we came on because art history is,

(51:34):
is a passion of mine and I, I teach it to kids.
I, I love art history. So the fact that there's been so
much classic art in this episode, but even the this
really in the show and the IP asa whole has used art in a, in
fascinating ways for storytelling, which I love.
Sharon D sent me a very long message that I was then like,

(51:57):
haha, I can't read this because I haven't watched.
So thank you. OK, now you're reading for the
first time. This is like, are you trying to
make excuses for the audience like?
I'm a great reader, so no. Which is why.
I told her to send it to you instead of me.
I think you'd like that. So Sharon D says hi, and then
she's going to dinner tonight. So Dave told her to send her

(52:17):
thoughts on the episode to Cher.They mostly concerned the
Washington Crossing, the Delaware painting painted in
1851 by Emmanuel Lutz, 75 years after the actual crossing.
The painting is not historicallyaccurate, but instead was
intended to urge liberal German reformers to look to the
American Revolution to inform the European revolutions that

(52:38):
were happening at the time. Given Herschel's artistic
ability, it's not a stretch to imagine that the Dhamma would
use him to also paint or draw propaganda to urge others to
follow their reform of the past.The painting is also very
diverse, including an African American man and possibly a
disguised woman among the other various representations of
colonial people on the boat, which includes riflemen and

(53:01):
soldiers. This the fact that in the dead
city world people are no longer judged on color and or sex and
gender, but rather on their Marshall and leadership
abilities. There are 13 men on the boat
just as there are 13 men in the Last Supper and I would argue 13
colonies. And we were given a very Last
Supper ish tableau in this episode, though there are only 8

(53:23):
at the table. Yeah, it's also in our video.
By the way, I just included the image.
As in The Last Supper, there is a mystery.
The Last Supper has the disembodied hand that doesn't
belong to anyone at the table. With George Washington crossing
the Delaware, there's a mystery person of whom you can only only
their weapon seen in the painting a.
Lot of controversy behind that, actually a lot of essays on this

(53:46):
subject. So yeah.
One impossible aspect of the painting is George Washington
standing in the boat, which, given the stormy conditions
during the crossing and the design of the boat itself, would
have ended with the boat capsizing.
In other words, the people who are leading should keep somewhat
low profiles or risk upsetting the boat, which will cost
everyone on board. And the people all said, sit

(54:07):
down, sit down, you're rocking the boat.
As to the actual crossing of theDelaware, George Washington
decided to cross the river into Trenton, NJ, where the Haitian
German troops hired by. I'm sorry, I said Haitian and I
don't know why. Passion.
Yeah. Passion German.
That would be interesting. Yeah, that's wrong.
Country hired by the crown were camped for Christmas and attack.

(54:32):
Not only would the the Hessians be drunk and carousing for
Christmas, but no one would expect an attack during a
vicious snowstorm. Some of this is incorrect legend
though as the Hessian commander actually anticipated an attack
by Washington and had his men onguard and alert.
The actual attack from Washington was delayed by the
storm, though the storm proved invaluable cover when they

(54:52):
finally did land and they captured 1100 German soldiers
and killed 22 while only losing a total of five men themselves.
Most people believe the drunken soldiers were caught off guard
quote UN quote myth though. So I feel the Bruegel at some
point will use this tactic, using a holiday in celebration
to get the advantage over the Dava also the case.

(55:15):
Here. Yeah, exactly.
The real original George Washington Crossing the Delaware
painting was partially destroyedby fire and Lutz's studio, much
as it is partially destroyed in the episode.
So the version hanging in the Met is the second iteration.
Tap it, tap it. He's like telling people to.
Put out the fire, but instead ofrubbing it.

(55:37):
Not too hard tap it. This amuses me.
So oh. My God.
Oh my God. Oh my God.
I know. He's like.
I'm just having like a total conniption, OK.
So I think, I think what I thinkthat I think, I think that what

(55:57):
charity is saying here is that yes, like there was some use of
celebration, but I think she's thinking that because they're
going to merge that he'll throw some lavish party as a
distraction, which would be interesting.
Pairs well to the very end wordsthat he uses.
I still have moves because he wants to be top dog.

(56:17):
Yes, I want to be top dog. I love it.
I love it. I.
Believe, I believe it. I will say more to that because
there are hints of Bruegel wanting things to return but not
return because in a sense he talks about just kind of like
Maggie and Armstrong are talkingabout what's your favorite food?
And he goes the bodega sandwich,which is crazily good.

(56:40):
It's the thing that you miss when it's gone, and the Kit Kats
and the candy bars and the all that stuff.
But Bruegel himself is like the first words out of the episode.
It's like it wasn't just the streetlights, it was Radio City
to Tony. Obviously.
He's talking to himself, basically, because what is Tony
now? It's the idea.
Then what if we could bring it all back?
What if we could bring that, at least that part back?

(57:02):
What would that give us? Which is the exact opposite of
what the dama wants. Sort of, yeah.
It's interesting because their interaction, she seems like
irritated or disturbed or disgusted by the comments that
he makes. And some of that I chalked up to
like old money versus new money because it's very much a thing
like old money. And this is, this is a thing
here. OK.
Like I grew up in the South. Old money is something else

(57:23):
here, let me tell you. And I came from no money, so
neither old nor new. And my mother worked in country
clubs for old money. And people.
That would join the country clubs that like had hit it big
and something you know like because the tech world was like
really thriving at this time youknow like mid early to mid 90s

(57:44):
tech world's coming into play we've.
Got. We've got Raleigh, Triangle
Park, RTP, you know, we're getting like all of these big
things are happening here and people are starting to hit it
big. And when that happened, so these
like new money families would join the Country Club and Lord
have mercy to these old biddies have something to say about

(58:06):
that. You know, it was just like they
were disgusted by like the clothes that they wore or the
stuff that they would say or howdare they act like that or how
dare they let their Children Actlike that or whatever.
It's like it wouldn't even matter what it was, you know?
It was just that it was happening and they didn't like
it and it threatens them in someway.
How the Damo was responding to her goal really reminded me of

(58:28):
that. Like I could just hear these
women. But I have to deal with this.
You know, exactly because they would hire my mom to come work
at their house and then talk to her like she was their peer
because they had nobody else to talk to.
But that's not the case. We had zero money.
But yes, I will eat your Godiva chocolates.
Thank you so much for introducing me to such an

(58:48):
absolute delight and pleasure. In the Ferrero che.
Right the Ferrero Che. Ohh no it was that Ferrero Che
it was Godiva 100% that was my jam.
Anyway, the $15.3 million comment and sad the bees.
She was so disgusted by that thethe attribution to the past,
this concept of old money, you know, like.

(59:10):
Trying to be old money or referring.
To things actual, like money, like things from the old time,
like money doesn't matter. Anymore.
Right, right, right. Right.
Yeah. But then the culture of it.
Yeah. Because he's acting the part.
Yes, yeah. So and I could tell it's like
with every bit of this discussedher and is against what she is
trying to do, just create a totally new world that has
nothing to do with any of these ideals.

(59:31):
Right, right. Exactly the.
Thing the very. Thing that destroyed her
probably too. I believe you said this in the
last episode, but that world cannot exist as long as people
like her are here. That world only exists.
It only exists when everyone whoknows the before is gone.
She says this, right? I thought you said I said this.
You did, I did, But I I was justsaying what she said.
I I can't unknown what I know. She says this to Herschel.

(59:54):
I was just making an observation.
I didn't want to take credit forsomething Lisa Emery said as her
part. You know what I mean?
I would never, I would never, I would never.
Okay. This is just an excuse for me to
belt out the thing that comes natural, that naturally to me is
my accent, sort of. But there's more to just this,

(01:00:15):
which is great because he bringsup, OK, there's a reason why he
brings up Thermopylae, right? The Battle of Thermopylae with
Benjamin Pierce is in the Battleof Thermopylae.
It was romanticized. Let me put it this way.
But also, you could see this as the earliest forms of
propaganda, the way historians of the time painted the Battle
of Thermopylae, which let me just paint the scene.

(01:00:37):
Talk about paintings. This was the the Persian
Empire's third attempt, I think,at trying to sack the Spartans
of Greece, or that at least the Sparta city state.
And you may have a glimpse of this in the even more
dramatically romanticized the 300 with the Spartans.
Brett Butler. Brett, is it Bret Butler?

(01:00:57):
It's not Brett Butler. No, it's Brett Gerard.
Gerard Butler. My God.
Butler paid us. Some good money to see Brett
Butler. Ish Ish.
Sparta Walking Dead's own Brett Butler.
As Tammy Rose Sutton. Anyway, it's Xerxes against I
forget his name, but anyway you get the idea.

(01:01:19):
But the there is something romantic about it.
Anyway, the idea that it was 7000 Spartan soldiers who who
did ward off for the for a fairly long time.
Not millions of Persians as the historians tended to depict, but
it was could be roughly 120,000 to 3.

(01:01:40):
It's still big. Not it's it was big enough.
Just saying that 120,000 to 300,000 Persian soldiers in the
third attempt. So for three days in a direct
assault, this 7000 man force actually managed to repel the
Persians. However, everybody loves and
Alamo's last stand. Sure, at the 7th day of these

(01:02:00):
attacks they finally fell. Why did they fall?
Let me read this line. Because they could have held
them off forever. Maybe this will pair very well
to what Bruegel says at the end of the episode.
After the second day, a local resident named Effie Altis says
probably something wrong. Maybe revealed to the Persians
the existence of a path leading behind Greek lines.

(01:02:23):
So the reason why the 7000 Spartan troops were able to
repel the Persians was because they had to pass through a
narrow pass to get to Sparta from the shores.
And ethialities revealed to the Persians the existence of path,
of a path leading behind the Greek lines.
Who is that but Negan? If Negan is, you see the chess
moves being played between the Dhamma and Bruegel by way of

(01:02:45):
backhanded compliments, but you're not seeing the moves that
Negan is playing completely subversively.
Yeah #1 he expresses to Maggie in Earnesty.
I can't, not even a little bit, tell you where the methane is
because it would risk Annie and Joshua's safety, of course.
However, seeing Maggie acknowledge this fear of his, he

(01:03:06):
tells her anyway. Why?
I think he also tells Bruegel while he's whispering in his
ear. Now you think.
That he's just talking to him about the about Tony.
About Tony. And that is true, he does
because he sees Tony's eyes opening up very wide as he
basically says, I'm supposed to go after you.
I'm a Walker. I'm a Walker.

(01:03:27):
Like with his eyes, Tony's eyes,you see his eyes, like, just
lie. Just like, OK, what am I
supposed to do? Yeah.
And then he pushes them away. But it's.
He also tells Frugal where the methane is because he says high
risk, high reward. And what would be the point in
telling both Maggie and Bruegel where the methane is?

(01:03:48):
It would give the Dhamma a huge problem because I'm not saying
that they would unite against that.
Maggie and the and Bruegel wouldunite.
No, but at the very least they're fighting.
Right. They're either fighting each
other or they're fighting from both sides of the Saint
Patrick's Cathedral to get at the methane.

(01:04:08):
I thought at first that that wasactually like when he said the
address, I was like, he can't begiving up the methane.
And I thought maybe he had foundout where like Annie and Josh
were going to be housed. Oh well, no, no, they're not
there. Yet.
But I thought maybe he had figured out like where the DOMA
like holds people. That's where I was going to get
to next because it it is Saint Patrick's Cathedral.

(01:04:31):
How we know that is from the, I don't know if it was the first
scene, but wherever that scene where they kind of the breaking.
Bad. Breaking Bad, throwing the
Walker into the thing and makingthe methane and all that stuff,
and then the Radio City lights showing, you know, whatever that
whole thing was happening in Saint Patrick's Cathedral.
Now I need to say something because I had excised me

(01:04:53):
mentioning that in our episode breakdown because I was hedging.
I talked to Big Game about knowing where everything was,
Saint Patrick's Cathedral, blah blah.
The interior we talked about theinterior I showed.
I don't mean remember if I showed a screen.
Chatter about where I was positioned.
Well, that I was right about. I just wasn't sure if it was
Saint Patrick's Cathedral per SE.
OK, got you the time when we talked about that part and then

(01:05:14):
he was in the the catacombs or something like that and he was
held. But at least show wise, yes,
that's where he was. It didn't look like Saint
Patrick's Cathedral looked different.
OK, regardless, now that we knowand we know exactly where Saint
Patrick's Cathedral is and the relative to Radio City, but all
that makes sense. I just want to read Rob Lucchesi
saying the hoity toity of NYC leading these factions is so

(01:05:35):
damn funny. I agree.
Isn't that like real life? I mean today?
Yeah. And it goes to what Herschel
said earlier. Neo also says.
I think Negan told Bruegel something extra, too.
Yeah, that's exactly Neo's the one, and that's what it was.
It would just cause a problem for the Dhamma, which would give
him enough wiggle room because, I mean, here's the thing.
The only way to truly protect Joshua and Annie is you'd say

(01:05:58):
the take out the Dhamma. Yeah, but they should.
He can't do that until Annie andJosh sure here so he can take
them away. But what he can do is cause
enough chaos to weaken the Dhamma so that when they do get
here, he can whisk them away or whatever he's going to do with
them. I think that would make sense.
That does make sense. Something I also wanted to
mention when it came to BenjaminPierce, actually, OK.

(01:06:20):
Because. The one that we touched on it,
but we didn't really get into it.
As Benjamin Pierce is talking about, I know who you are.
Weren't we all going shut up? Stop talking, obviously stop
talking. You're on borrowed time, brah.
Yeah, you're an idiot, dude. And he's like looking to Negan.
Now. You can easily say Negan's one

(01:06:41):
of them. Maybe he's the the man.
I don't. I don't.
Like goading him. Yeah, into saying it.
But if I were Benjamin Pierce, Iwould not have said it.
I'd be like, oh, nothing, So sorry, my mistake.
Not her. Right.
Social cues something. Something's up there, yeah.
I don't know. It was weird.
It was interesting to find out. Like we knew that she was
involved in like the New York scene.

(01:07:03):
We assumed, but we thought we. Assumed an actor.
So it's interesting to know thatshe was a critic and also, I
don't know, and then she can't teach.
Well, that's what I was going tosay.
And you did say that in a previous episode, but also the
fact that she bit him. And then I was like, was this a
knock to Norman getting bit? But anyway.
Fan biting Norman. Rob said you guys were 100%

(01:07:25):
right as to how they were getting the walkers to fight,
soaking their heads I. Was about to bring that up next.
I was so happy that that happened.
It was like that happened and I was right about Jesse yesterday
having voted no. And I said that in the original
episode. And then it was like, no.
No, that was me. I was I said it too.
OK, so we both said it high 5. Because you guys were like, I

(01:07:47):
don't know, I. Think, he said.
I was surprised that people would say, anyway, we didn't
bring it up. It was.
Very excited. And then that happened and I was
like, oh, we were right again. I was like, I feel like I'm on a
roll. I'm.
Untouchable. They have a way.
I'm untouchable right now. Yeah, we're on fire.
See, now you know how it feels to be me.
It never happens, I'm always wrong, So what a thrilling
experience. So much for me.

(01:08:07):
I have to kind of downplay. I have to be humble.
Can't be like Bruegel going, oh,now, now.
And it always cost me $15.3 million.
According to Sotheby's. According to Sotheby's, you have
to say all the syllables for TheNew Yorker.
Sotheby's and also extend your asses for some reason.
Also cool Rockaway Towing nod because that is a real company

(01:08:29):
in New York City. Is it?
Really. Yeah.
One could say it's a mafioso. Oh.
Well, Dave, cease and desist, cease and desist.
Cap a ghoul. Why?
Oh, well, they don't care, but I'll say they everybody knows.
It's like an open secret. By the way, it's same thing with
the sanitation and also a littlebit of why.

(01:08:53):
Are they saying that? Are they saying that Bruegel is
Rockaway Towing? That would make sense actually.
Pretty funny I. Like it isn't that cute.
I like it. That's how it got there,
actually. Wait, wait.
You know what I mean? You know what?
I. Mean, there you go.
Oh, I don't know if this is the case for all of you out there,
but tow truck companies kind of wait near the scene of where

(01:09:14):
accidents usually happen in New York City and beyond.
The same thing. Yeah.
Same thing with ambulance chasers, you know?
But like these guys, you know, they got to do the job and.
I saw the whole thing happen. You need a toe.
You need a toe. Oh, you don't need a toe.
Why don't you need a toe? Oh, you can drive away now.
You can't. No, that's not what happens.
I'm just kidding. Well, I mean, that's how you

(01:09:35):
keep business going, you know what I mean?
But I I only, I only bring this up because it is a sign of some
of the things that suck about this world rather than last.
They had the idea of hierarchiestilt towards tyranny, as some
people say, the idea that if unchecked, they'll keep going.
I know it was interesting to hear Herschel say the world
sucks, all it is is people fighting each other for power,

(01:09:57):
which is really what's happeningin the new world also.
Yeah, I was just not seeing it. I would argue it's just human
nature, but it was interesting to.
Hear it was interesting to hear him say that and then also to
have Pearly be like yeah, but itwasn't all bad because we're
we're looking at it through the lens I.
Particularly wanted to know how you felt about that actually, by

(01:10:17):
the way. So we're looking at it through
the lens of our lives now, right?
Like our day-to-day lives. I get up, I'm inconvenienced by
the fact that my alarm goes off.I'm inconvenienced by the fact
that I ran out of toothpaste. I'm inconvenienced by the fact
that I got to get in my car and then I hit traffic on the way to
work. I'm inconvenienced by people
trying to zipper merge when I don't want them to.
Starbucks has a long line and I'm so irritated by everything.

(01:10:41):
It's like I'm looking at it through this lens, though of, of
what's happening right now. Whereas you could be looking at
it through the lens of like posttrauma post like hard times kind
of thinking. And it changes that.
And don't get me wrong, I mean, traffic still irritates me to my
core, but now I try to think of it as like, OK, well, what if

(01:11:02):
this is like so that I avoid an accident on my way to work and
like this is happening for a reason.
Or, you know, maybe my toothpaste ran out because I'm
supposed to go to the store today for some reason.
I can't see the reason, but maybe I do something nice for
somebody and that makes them feel better or whatever and that
like change the course of their day.
There's all those little things that you could think about.

(01:11:23):
And so I don't know, it's interesting to hear him talk
about like the old world, like it was just horrible, and then
have Pearly be like, well, it wasn't because I mean, it sucks
here. Don't get me wrong, it does suck
here. Earth.
But. I mean, it does when I know that
I have an eternal home awaiting me that is full of constant

(01:11:43):
rejoicing. This place blows.
But there are great things aboutthis world.
There is the joy that I get fromseeing friends.
There's laughing babies, there'ssleepy puppies, there's music,
there's arts, there's literature, there's all of this
stuff that's I'm really, really,really super thankful for.
So as as much as I can come off as like really pessimistic or

(01:12:06):
like negative about my outlook towards like people.
Not really. It's really just that I believe
firmly in human nature and, and sin being innate.
So like, that's really what where that comes from.
I actually really enjoy a lot ofthe little things on earth now,
especially now after like everything that I've been
through. Dude, when I tell you getting

(01:12:27):
out of the shower and laying in a clean bed on clean sheets,
nothing better, nothing better. There are like a million things
that you get to do every day that other people don't get to
do. And I just want people to focus
on the fact that, like, that is such a blessing.
Yeah, wake up a little earlier, have a hot shower, lay down on
your bed with a towel and just stay there doing nothing.

(01:12:50):
You get to get up and have a hotshower.
People don't get to do. That that doesn't happen
everywhere in the world. Can I tell you something though?
This actually made me think of aconversation that I had with my
mom and I think I may have mentioned this in an early early
days episode of the podcast. I'm a teenager or late teen and
she talks about her basically her escape from Syria and how
she's gone through so much. And I tell her this night for

(01:13:14):
some reason I say my problems don't compare to yours and how I
know my problems are my problemsand they're problems for me at
this time. But when pain is.
Relative, right? Yeah, but I think there's a
truth to thinking when you, whenyou don't have the time to focus
on that, on the minutiae, and you look at the big picture and
what you're trying to do and what you're aiming to do, and

(01:13:36):
your only mission is survival. All that stuff is minimized.
Now you could say, oh, she's just stuffing it down, blah,
blah, blah. And there's a building up
trauma, but you can say all of that.
But there's something to say about how we interact with the
world in our relationship to gratitude essentially, is what
I'm saying. Yeah.
And and that we do have a negativity bias that is also

(01:13:57):
human nature, unfortunately, forbetter or worse, for better or
worse. I've probably mentioned it
before, but my family used to tell me it was when Oprah was
really big, like as like a star,you know, everybody was really
an Oprah and her book list and she wrote a, she talked about
having a gratitude journal. And my family was like, Bridget
has an ingratitude journal. Oh God, that's terrible thing to

(01:14:20):
hear. Right, Sick, sick.
Burn on me. ATV signal going through a lot
of stuff. No, no, I mean, yeah, I was
depressed. I I have mental health issues.
But you know, let's mock them out of people.
I will say that repression is a valid form of processing.
And anyone who says otherwise, it's like who are you to decide?

(01:14:40):
Like how people cope in terms of.
Distraction. Right, Like, I think it's fine
to use distraction to like meander through grief because
one, grief takes a really long time to get through and two,
it's valid. It's.
Fine, but it's it's a part of a whole.
I guess that's true. Yeah, I I would argue that
that's fine if she's not injuring other, you know, she's

(01:15:01):
not like, Oh well, I'm going to go shopping endlessly with and
ruin our entire family because we have no money for food now
because I can't stop shopping because that's my coping
mechanism. I would argue then yeah,
definitely you need help. But if.
You're unhealthy version of that.
Yeah, you know, but I think it'sOK to be like, look, I'm just
going to not really talk about it that much.
I think that's a valid choice that people can make for
themselves, and I think it's unfair for other people to state

(01:15:23):
otherwise. Yeah, I think also distraction.
And I wouldn't call my mom's struggle A distraction, but I
would say when there's a bigger picture item, it does allow you
to kind of see your what would normally be minutiae problems as
smaller than they really are. And isn't the whole thing about
us complaining about our daily minutiae making mountains out of
molehills making it the biggest thing in the?

(01:15:44):
World a privilege that other people in the world do not have.
Right, first real problems as they say, right?
It's true. Anyway, I want to go back to
what Rob Lucchesi said, because he said it would have been
really a neat tie in to Daryl Dixon if they had been juicing
the Walker. That would have been really
cool. And I kind of thought that that
was where it was going to go. When he said like, are you
shooting it up with something? I was like, oh, oh.

(01:16:07):
I definitely think that was smart.
Walker I was hopeful that we were getting smart Walker and I
was even like as I was right about smart Walker.
And then I was not in the way hethought.
So it was taken away from me very quickly, but.
I knew the whole time it was it was a person.
I felt that way and then I was like, what is it?
Well, it was the shoulder roll. Punching the.
Shoulder punching. I was like, that's weird.

(01:16:28):
Well, the shoulder roll's not that strange, but the punching
of in the gut. Why are you punching this
Walker's gut? There's no Walker advantage to
that. I don't know because he's just a
security guard, Dave, he's just a hired.
Hand, he's just he's just told to rough him up a bit, you know?
Yeah, have a goal anyway. Well, let's stay on the Herschel
thing because I, I'm glad you got to reflect on it 'cause I, I

(01:16:52):
thought you might have gone in the direction of, yeah, this
world sucks and everything is terrible and he and Herschel is
100% right. Yeah, like you.
I mean, he didn't agree. He is right, but he's also
wrong, if that makes sense. Like he is right, it does suck.
It is all about power. It's all about power and money,
and it's about keeping the poor poor.
And like that is my political belief.

(01:17:12):
I let me, let me just say this, I think you know how somebody is
so close but yet so far away. Yeah, Oh yeah, 100%.
So like, yes, it's a grand scheme of things.
He's right. But when it comes down to like,
that's not what everybody wants.It's not what everybody's after.
I'm not willing to kill for it. And also, maybe I just want a

(01:17:33):
Kit Kat bar. Not really.
I don't like them in the apocalypse.
I probably would. You know it'd.
Be like gold. Yeah.
Why would you turn that down? And my, my point exactly is
this. I don't think it's about power
and suppression. I think, like I said,
hierarchies do tilt towards tyranny.
That isn't arguable. That's just the nature of
hierarchies. They tilt towards tyranny,

(01:17:54):
entropy. You know, these two two things
are hand in hand, but really, isn't that what people try to do
today is that they lean towards perfection, That you have
perfection and that, you know, you're never going to get it.
This idea, and I'm going to maybe criticize a couple people
when it comes to the idea of let's say utopia, I'm not going
to name the you, you'll know what I'm talking about when I

(01:18:15):
say utopia. Well, if we only had this, if
we, if we only did that, we would solve these kinds of
problems, the hierarchy tilt or tyranny and all that stuff.
But then they found out that youneed tyranny to enforce this
utopia, right? And so and then we're back at
square one because what is that?Well, as much as I rant A rave
about burning it all down, anarchy neatly is just

(01:18:38):
destruction and death, right? And then you become the
oppressor, right? Right.
Oh well, Bridget looks very sheepish right now.
Well, I mean like anarchy is notlike my, that's not my belief
system. I just like to yell bird it down
a lot. But.
It's like your conspiracy theories, they're fun to think
about. Yeah, I enjoy it.
It's a nice thought. It's entertaining.

(01:18:58):
Do I think they're real? No.
Well, maybe a little. Did I spray paint an anarchy
sign on a T-shirt when I was a teenager and wear it out
publicly? And ironically, I sure did.
That's your bottom dollar? I did.
Would you now? No blame cringe, right?
Old now it's I am cringe. I am old and cringe.
But there's two things about human nature that don't go hand

(01:19:21):
in hand when we're talking aboutthis.
And This is why Herschel is close, but so far away.
The idea that if we made a new thing, then the world would be a
better place is wrong because it's human nature to tilt
towards tyranny. It's the thing that's inside of
us. And isn't that The Walking Dead
as a concept is that it's the people, It's who we are.

(01:19:42):
Now, I'm not saying that we don't have civilization.
We don't have it's. I'm saying we don't have other
things because here's the secondthing that's in human nature,
the thing that wins ideally. Yeah, compassion.
Kindness. No, no, no, not even that.
OK, but the, but these things can make those things you're
just saying flourish. And that is creativity, mastery,
true talent, right? The the idea that you are

(01:20:04):
specializing, right? The idea that you're that in
cooperating with others, it helps not only them flourish.
Sure, why not? Who cares though?
Let's go back to me. It also helps me flourish when I
help other people. Yeah, and I get that.
And that's a good point to bringup since art has been like Fine
Arts has been such a heavy focusof the season.
Yes, of course. And So what is that?

(01:20:25):
That is the thing, the very thing that you have to take away
in order to stop tyranny, which is the artists, you know, the
comedians. The is the very thing that is is
meant to save us. It's the idea let's strive for
hire for something greater, somemeaning, some purpose.
And if you take away human flourish, like the idea of
people, maybe some people being above other people, if you
flatten all hierarchies, well then you take the drive, the

(01:20:48):
human drive, the ingenuity away from people.
What's the point? What's the point of the whole
experiment? So that everybody's at the same
level, which is basically down here.
But that's not how human nature works.
Somebody's going to rise to the top.
It's a vacuum, right? In order to impose that
flattening of hierarchies, you need an incentive mechanism.
That's really what I'm that makes sense.

(01:21:10):
That's another part of human nature.
Without the incentive mechanism,there's no reason to create.
There's no reason to flourish. And So what have you done?
Another form of The Walking Dead.
You've made everybody the same walkers and it's the same in
both sides. So you can't erase human nature.
Herschel. It's and that's where he what
he's getting wrong. And you know what, Maggie and
Armstrong could, and Armstrong maybe was, was kind of trying to

(01:21:32):
say that, just trying to say it wasn't all bad.
Yeah, no, I I appreciated him saying that.
And also I was pleasantly surprised by my own reaction to
it, because it's not normally how I would talk about this.
But I don't know. I think about a world in which
we don't have power anymore and I can never take a hot shower
again. Not everything's bad.
No refrigeration. Yeah.

(01:21:54):
Excuse me. Excuse me?
I'm eating expired canned goods.What a life.
You know, it's not all bad here.No, but daga sandwiches, Robert
Casey says. That's what my family calls
Walkers, Gabba ghouls. Gabba Ghouls.
Yeah, that's why we call ourselves Squawking dead.
It's like, it's kind of like a Gabba ghoul.
Actually, we should call ourselves Gabba ghoul.
That's it. We'll change it.

(01:22:15):
We'll change it. Everything.
We're changing everything, everybody.
If the branding's changed, consider I've changed already.
Right. And it's just me going.
Gabba. Ghouls, the logos mean going
like this. My goal?
I love it. Little Gabba Gabba ghoul.
To Hershel's point, a little is it he's not wrong about this
part, because every time people try to bring it back, they kind

(01:22:35):
of just make it worse. And I mean, sure, go to Rick I.
Mean Rick Terminus. I was so rooting for Rick.
I was so rooting for Rick at thetime, and the truth is, yeah, it
made it so that the walkers could cross the river to get to
their people. And then all those other people
died. Because, again, hierarchies tilt
towards tyranny. Thank you Saviors, for killing

(01:22:56):
everybody and making things worse.
It's a good comparison to Rick. Yeah, I think of I think of
Terminus too, because like that was meant to be this like little
Utopia at 1st and then they werecrushed by another group that
caused them to turn into cannibals, right?
They twisted them. Yeah, You know, the governor's

(01:23:16):
plays like if, if Phillip Blake wasn't such an absolute monster,
like, it could have been really great.
But he was, if he could. Suppress his human nature.
Yeah, but he was a horrible dudewith a lot of messed up
tendencies that are not even remotely touched on in the show.
And count your lucky stars that you didn't have to see that.
Yeah, yeah, no kidding. Yeah, I'll say one thing, one
more thing. When Armstrong is talking to

(01:23:37):
Maggie side on the side just before they go into the museum.
I think it's just before I I really appreciated him talking
to Maggie about are we doing this for for them or for us?
Are we trying to now he's sayingnecessarily the life that we
want to give to our kids to protect them because I feel for
you. I have the same feelings as you,
Maggie. And even Armstrong goes to the

(01:23:57):
extent of saying I was going to leave the Babylon Federation.
But when it comes to having kids, is that the best for them
to live out in the wild where these things, these monsters can
take them down? Or is it easier to deal with the
human monsters and then maybe have the a better life than we
had to get to this point? And that is such a valid
argument. And actually, I, I want you to

(01:24:19):
know one of the things I had said was they will in every Ave.
possible, inch by inch, try to get you to feel for Maggie
again. Because I know there's a
contingent of the audience that is like, what a whiny baby
thing, though. It's tragedy porn.
She's the one who left the show.Who cares?
But in seeing Armstrong struggle, you understand

(01:24:40):
Maggie's terror, constant terror, much, much more.
There's a reflection there like.I said she's lost everyone,
Dave. The only person she has is her
baby boy and he she's losing him.
Losing him too, yeah. And he's not, and he's still
there and he's still there. How painful is that?
I mean, like I said, she lost her mother when she was younger.

(01:25:00):
She lost her stepmother to Walkers.
She lost her brother to Walker. She lost her sister to an idiot
in a hospital. She lost her dad to a monster.
You know, I mean, it's like it'sjust been.
And then it's not even that, butyou've lost all hope of a future
because every home you land at falls apart.

(01:25:21):
You were at the farm, it fell apart.
You go to the prison, it falls apart.
You go to Alexandria, that fallsapart.
You go to Hilltop, that falls apart finally, just like I'm
just going to be on the road andmaybe then I can get some peace.
And then everywhere you go, it'sall the same.
Everybody has the same story to tell and.

(01:25:41):
Worse. She's lost everything for people
to be like, what a whiny baby. I mean, I get that everyone has
lost. Everyone has in this world, but
everybody responds to that differently.
And this has been a nonstop tidal wave for Maggie of just
loss after loss after loss. She can't get over it, and the
man who committed the crime against her husband still lives

(01:26:02):
and she didn't want him to and she didn't get to have a say in
that. Right, right.
Like there is stuff to be. Mad about There is stuff to be
mad about. I will to give the sharks a
little chum. There is something to be said
about and I wonder if the writers A are conscious of it
and B will try to write their way out of it.
The idea of well, I don't want to see me in the character.

(01:26:23):
I want to see someone uplifting.I want to see someone who is
able to overcome. We love an underdog, right?
We love an underdog, right Bridget?
We do. I do.
Yeah. It would be nice to see her,
like, pull herself up by her bootstraps and do something
different. You know what?
It would have been nice had she come back for Negan.

(01:26:44):
I know that sounds insane, but that that would have been like,
that would have been showing himlike, you are better.
You are a better person than he is.
How Christian of you, Bridget. Yeah, turn the other cheek.
Turn the other cheek. I mean, there is something to be
said about loving your enemy. Well, yeah.
I don't disagree with you. I love that for us and you and,

(01:27:05):
well, whoever. Well, I mean that's.
Constantly the side you are playing, always.
But yeah. Of course.
And I'm like, burn them down, kill them, I don't care.
But. Come on here, a bunch of babies.
I don't know what's happening tome. 100% with Seth from The Last
of Us Rob. Mentioned he wants to know why
she didn't remain at Commonwealth or Alexandria after
the finale and we all had the same exact.
Same question. We don't know.

(01:27:26):
I had an idea and I really, I thought it was penance, not 100.
I maybe still in that corner, the idea that I don't deserve
this. It could be, it could be, but.
That maybe, and again maybe hellis repetition to why did Maggie
leave in the 1st place to start her own community, kind of
follow Georgie, find Georgie, follow her, build a key to the

(01:27:46):
future. That little handbook that
Georgie gives her, that group, whoever that group is, right,
whatever. And then when ended up
happening, the idea that it isn't that people, people, they
have their own hell. They try to do the same thing
over and over again, crazy people.
And it doesn't work right? That's what crazy people do.
But who can blame her? I mean, you're a person in the
world, you go with what works orwhat you think should work and

(01:28:09):
well. So wouldn't there be something
redeeming about like her finallygetting that to work?
I, it's not like I don't expect her to forgive me.
And I think that's an unrealistic expectation, but or
to at least like turn her cheek.I don't know, like something
about that feels horrible or like save, save Annie and Joshua
at the very least, like something to that degree to like

(01:28:32):
redeem this situation. Or redeem the character as a
narrative element. Yeah, I see what you're saying.
I think that's a, it's a what? A needle you'd have to thread
because, I mean, well, there's other factors too.
There's people who'd be like, why would you save a *** Why?
You know what I'm talking about.Like I do.
Negan. He deserves his whole family

(01:28:52):
deserves to die. I don't care.
I don't care. It's a bad seed.
People are born of sin. Excuse me.
So they're carrying Negan sin MAagain.
That's not. How sin works but sure.
That's how sin talks. Oh my God, I'm dead.
Pascal is the valley girl. I am dead.

(01:29:13):
I'm enjoying seeing the incremental Maggie kind of
actually coming out of the FOG maybe.
I think she's seeing things for what they are.
She's admitting to her trauma. She's naming it.
She can't say Glenn. It's going back to that little
nugget that you guys dropped, which I thought was.
I didn't think of that, But why?How could you?
If I name it, it brings it all back.
Yeah. My name, Glenn.
If I say his name, my husband, even my husband is.

(01:29:36):
It's a weight on your chest to say my husband that I had one
and I made this beautiful child whom I'm constantly terrified
he's going to die and I love that she's actually naming the
one thing. The one thing is that's the
start. I'm constantly terrified.
I know I have this tough exterior and she does.
She's hard. She.
Is she is She's a hardened person.
I do want to remind everyone though that Carol is very

(01:29:57):
similar to this. I did want to bring that up.
Gosh, you son of a mother. Carol Carol is really similar to
this. She is also hardened.
She is also stubborn and she wasalso constantly fearful of
losing a child. Henry But it starts from the
very beginning of her story. And so I just want people to

(01:30:18):
remember. That.
When you're like evaluating thischaracter and saying like, I
can't stand her, she annoys me. I know.
I get it. You're the viewer.
You also went through Glenn's death, I understand.
But she is supposed to be married to him in this world, so
like, give her a little bit of slack.
And also your favorite character, Carol, is similar.
True. And let's take that a little bit

(01:30:40):
further. There is a Carol moment in this
episode. OK, lay it on me.
Maggie spots the dumb of the very she or her that Negan
mentions yes, right, he brainwashed her or whatever he
Negan said to her. I don't remember, but it was
like he Herschel's not to be trusted essentially.
And he sees the very drawing of the very person that Herschel in
his drawings referring to. It's has to be the she that

(01:31:02):
Megan is talking about. And guess what?
The Dhamma spots her as well andgoes, oh that's interesting.
It's interesting, but I'm not. Interested the way I planned.
And what is that if not Carol season 10 looking down at Alpha
right from the cavern and then screaming that bloody scream

(01:31:22):
that made us our just made by skin crawl.
Just trying to get it. But you have to.
Context is everything. Do you remember the Benny Hill
show of her trying to chase Alpha?
And then she gets into the cavern and then everybody's
chasing after Carol because Carol, what are you doing?
What are you doing? And then they finally reach her
and it's the beginning of that episode when they finally catch

(01:31:43):
up to her. She yells that scream right
before the title sequence. And that's Maggie and the dama.
And of course Maggie can't scream.
And if I believe she could, she would, because it's the very
fear that you have that somebody's slipping away.
Now you can name the person who's doing it.
It's like you can't name Glenn. Here's the person that's taking
Herschel away from you or is leading Herschel.

(01:32:07):
Because it's not entirely Adama.It's a little Herschel too, and
I think she knows it too from byjudging by the way he's saying
things, it could be better. She's denying it publicly, but
she knows it internally. We already talked about that
scene. Her eyes give it all away.
I mean, look at after she huggedhim really tightly after she
thought she lost him. And then she pushes him a little

(01:32:28):
bit away, like arms lengths, andshe kind of gives him a look
like, have I lost you already? Rob says.
I find Maggie completely justified in her feelings
towards Negan and her worry about her son, as any mother
would. Speaking as a dad.
I agree with you, I do. Hard to disagree, and hard to
disagree with Armstrong's conundrum about Am I doing this

(01:32:50):
for them kids who can adapt, whodon't know any better?
Or am I doing this for us? Who does know that there's a
better that as much as we complain, Chris, it is a
criticism of the audience. As much as we used to complain
about our day-to-day doldrums and our malaise, that world is
better than this one even thoughthe grass is greener on the

(01:33:10):
other. So we're looking at the world.
Yeah, who want to do that? But then they're like society,
please can I has it? Please can you give me ice
cream? Right barf.
It's like the show is looking atus going, can you appreciate
what you have while you have please, so we don't have to
worry about these problems. I love that for us as a podcast
talking about it with you. We had a good run Tony the the

(01:33:34):
end scene. That was very sad.
Super sad it was I mean the. Monologue itself again.
So what a bookend. It starts off that way, ends up
that way. Here's how Eli Jornay refers to
the Bruegel. He uses the word quote UN quote
ultimate capitalist like it for us, but also civilized
barbarian. Also see that it's like the rat
and the carrot presentation of the meal.

(01:33:56):
It's like it's this elaborate looks very Michelin star meal,
but it's a rat also. You can't dress that up.
You know, it's like lipstick on a pig.
And everybody on the cast was praising Kim Coates, Joy behind
the scenes, like a joy to work with.
He brought joy to the set. This is wrong.
He just sounds like such an energy about him.
Oh my God, him cracking jokes atthe Paley Fest early premiere in

(01:34:19):
the Q&A and Q&A, by the way. Which is so jealous.
He was funny. He kept saying how tired he was
over and over again. It's like, I'm tired.
Everybody cracking jokes. It was so out of control that
like Megan, Megan, Jeopardy, Morgan and him were like just
talking to each other on the stage at one point, just like
laughing about how long they've been on this promotional tour,

(01:34:39):
going from city to city. Rob said it was sad but God that
man was put out of his misery, no longer being fed live rats
like way to live man. I agree, but there is something
to what he said though about purpose and having one.
In a world where it's all about survival, to have the one thing
that you're responsible over is kind is kind of a godsend that I

(01:35:01):
can be fed. I mean it's a horrible living,
but what does he know? You compare it to her.
Yeah 100%. And so if your only
responsibility. Is to do this for this person
and. Everything else is taken care of
and you don't have to worry about being hurt or whatever.
This is the only thing you get to do.
Oh, isn't that what we're all looking for?
But again, it can't be all aboutpurpose, right?
Everything in an extreme utopia,the idea that we can erase the

(01:35:25):
other things in life that make things life.
If he has no incentive mechanism, yeah, it's all his
existence is to live for Bruegel.
I am watching Nirvias. That was a little heartened by
her story. It did remind me of Rick and a
little bit of Princess is like the idea that the idea, the mere
idea of law and order brought her back, that there is
something underneath us that canhold us up or this concept that

(01:35:46):
that is enough to keep us going.And isn't that kind of our world
now is that we really heavily rely on the rules that we've
laid out like stop signs? Yeah, of course.
And we, we largely believe people.
When they say things. Too, when people could lie like
crazy, but people largely tell the truth.
Why is that? Because we've fed, we've front

(01:36:07):
loaded all these rules and and norms in society enough that
people can rely on it. Again, it wasn't all bad.
It wasn't all bad. Everybody.
And I will say the one thing that we didn't say out loud is
Bruegel's home is the Met, the Metropolitan Museum of Art.
And I found that tickled me, considering only a few weeks

(01:36:27):
prior we had the Met Gala. It's the whole affair that
people always thought, who what did you wear at the Met Gala?
Oh, I went camp this year. I went the theme.
The theme was The Walking Dead. Dead City.
No, it was a. It was a form of dandyism.
So that is. Fitting in the African American
community. I will say one more thing before
you bring that up, and that is Iwill.

(01:36:48):
Say this over and over again to every episode.
I hate that the Croat has been reduced to a punchline.
Yeah, me too. And now is being leveraged for
his ability to. Outrage because I.
Think, I do think, the Dhamma brought the Croat to stir the
pot. She knew why she was bringing
the Croat, but she also has Negan to kind of keep him in
check, his delicate checks and balances.

(01:37:10):
OK, The theme for the Met Gala 2025 was tailored.
For you to chime with the Costume Institute's upcoming
exhibition Superfine Tailoring Black Style, designed to be a
celebration of Black designers of the dandies, influence on
fashion, of figures that have shaped the culture.
I remember now there were just like a handful of people who

(01:37:30):
went like the dandyism route, which was really interesting to
see like that take on it. I would not have ever recognized
it, but there was a girl on TikTok and I wish I knew her at
but I don't. And so I'm very sorry for that.
She's like in the world of fashion and down like the
influence of each. Person.
'S look because she wanted to give them like a fair shake.

(01:37:52):
Because some people are just like.
That's ugly. But she wanted to explain like
why they were mixing patterns and like why these things were
happening and how it was influenced from like, you know,
19 sixties, 1970s and this concept of dandyism in the
African American community. So it was it was it was a really

(01:38:12):
interesting watch. So I'm, if you can find her at
great. If I find it, I will put in a
comment in this game, like rather than just go that's ugly.
Like yeah, no. She I thought it was why it's
good. I thought it was a really
interesting take on. It I actually do not care.
About the Met Gala. Like at all.
Because it's just rich people parading around and you know how

(01:38:33):
I feel about the rich. So eat them anyway.
Would you bite them like the dama?
Did that. That writer.
Maybe if there is anything. Well, I guess you'll tell us
audience. Because if you like what you
heard, head on over to ratethispodcast.com/walkingdead.
Leave us five stars and a well, whatever you want.
I don't know what a zombie emoji.

(01:38:53):
Flames to low rent a flame. OK, methane flame.
Cool. Five stars and a methane plate.
I meant the flame burning the painting as easily.
Tap it. Tap it, tap it, tap it.
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Oh my God. Well, leave us five stars in a
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(01:39:14):
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I went back and listened to it while you're talking, 'cause I
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(01:41:02):
Bridget and Dave will argue. You'll see it all.
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(01:41:44):
slash. Punky Brewster, That's
PUNKYBRUISETER. And no, Rob, you're the best.
You hang up first. Also, say it like a New Yorker,
man, you, you lived in New York for quite a time, say.
You guys, you guys are the best guys.
Have a good one, have a good one.
Everybody. Take care, everybody.
I can't wait for the next episode.

(01:42:06):
The awning and the coffee and the laundry.
I love it all. GABA Ghoul.
I know that some people may not like the.
Drip, drip, drip of all. This drama kind of unfolding,
but I think the incremental dripof these things unfolding make
it so that we focus on the dramaevery now and again while all
this crazy crap is happening around us.
So everybody, thank you so much.Thank you for buying that shirt

(01:42:27):
and he was the one. I hope you I really hope you
enjoy and I'm glad you enjoyed the quality.
And hey, by the way, if you happen to buy a merch from our
merch store, send us a photo or tag us in a photo if you happen
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Flip it so it shows the right way.
Whole thing, but we we will repost it and we will love it
forever and love you forever andwe do so there you go.

(01:42:50):
So take care everybody. We'll see you next time and
we'll do. I'm hugging you too, Neil,
Hugging your faces. Like face huggers from.
Aliens. I will have the spaghetti with a
side salad if the salad is on top.
I send it back. I'll have the Gobba ghoul.
The what? Bring in the Gobba ghoul.
Thank you so very much for listening to yet another episode
of. Squawking dead today because

(01:43:12):
this has all been released on Saturday, May 31st, the last day
of the month year 2025. I had only done this a few hours
prior the outro to our last episode which was the Last of Us
as season 2 finale, but this episode was the 4th episode of
The Walking Dead. Dead cities second season titled
feisty friendlies friendly. As is custom, we'd like to thank

(01:43:34):
our great M survivors and whispers tier members at the end
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receive when they join a membership tier, and you could
too, as my went through painstaking lengths telling you
that you could, starting with the grade M tier.
We have at real Ryan GM on both Instagram and X skipping the
survivors tier because we don't have any members there.

(01:43:56):
We're moving on to the whispers tier, which contains the
following members at Skylar Rose, PW on Instagram and X and
of course, at Kim dot Rowley, the number one on Facebook.
I'm having Deja vu again becauseI just did this.
I don't know why you're still here, but hey, you know what?
There's a little variation between the outros.
There's not canned versions of these.
It's just all off the Dome. Most of the time.

(01:44:18):
I'm heavily editing it so that you can't tell that I'm messing
up all the time. But for these two episodes that
I just released today, I'm trying not to edit as much.
And if you happen to like these unedited versions of these
episodes as compared to all the episodes we've pretty much ever
done, weigh in. It really does count.
If you are enjoying the uneditedversions of these and we get 10
or more comments across all platforms, reviews, comments

(01:44:41):
sections, whatever, we will probably move in that direction.
I will do a little bit more editing probably than what I've
been doing in these last few episodes.
However, largely speaking, they're going to be basically
what we recorded essentially, really not even any content
cuts. So enjoy and or not and say, hey
man, I really like the edited versions of these episodes.

(01:45:03):
Folks ain't got time to waste onthis.
So we're counting on you. We need that feedback.
I know that you guys are listening and I know that most
people who do listen don't really care and that's fine.
We love that about you. You just want US and well, we
want you to O that in mind, justremember that you, me,
everybody, we are squawking dead.

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