15: Empowering Black and Brown Designers Through Community and Support with Dominique Jones

What if the secret to success in book design isn’t just talent, but community, intention, and breaking through industry barriers?

Dominique Jones is a senior designer at Dutton Penguin Random House and president of Blk + Brwn Book Designers. She turned her passion for graphic design into a powerful movement of representation in the publishing industry.

In this episode, Dominique shares her creative journey, showing how she turned a passion into a mission. She takes us behind the scenes of book design, unpacking the challenges of representation, the power of community, and the art of visual storytelling.

From Passion to Purpose

Since Dominique was a child, she had a passion for books and book cover design. But once she was in the industry, she wasn’t satisfied with her own success. She wanted to help other designers of color get into the industry too.

Through Blk + Brwn Book Designers she was able to create a space for designers of color in an industry that’s often closed off to them. She built something bigger than herself and something that’s reshaping the landscape of book design.

Actionable Insight: Your creative passion can be a pathway to meaningful change. Start by looking for opportunities to make space for others in your field.

Bonus: Spend 10 minutes today researching communities that support diverse creative professionals. The right community can change everything.

Building a Creative Community

Dominique didn’t just succeed on her own. She created Blk + Brwn Book Designers, a group that goes far beyond basic networking. It’s about building genuine relationships that open doors for designers who might not have access to traditional resources.

"We all love graphic design and books," she says. This group isn’t just a space for advice. It’s a home for creatives seeking mentorship and support. It’s about connection, not just business.

Actionable Insight: Community is your greatest asset. Look for groups that align with your values and creative goals. Real connections are everything.

Bonus: Reach out to one person in your creative field this week for a meaningful conversation. You never know where a single connection can lead.

The Realities of Creative Careers

Dominique’s journey shows that creative success isn’t just about raw talent. It’s about resilience. Feedback, rest, and continual growth are crucial elements that helped her along the way.

"Taking breaks is important," she shares. "It helps my brain get a rest."

From internships to the professional world, Dominique’s story is a reminder that creative careers are about learning, adapting, and, most importantly, staying energized.

Actionable Insight: Embrace feedback as a tool for growth. Use criticism to fuel improvement, not discourage you.

Bonus: Create a simple system for collecting and processing constructive feedback in your creative work. It can be a game-changer for growth.

Designing with Purpose

Dominique’s design philosophy goes beyond making things “look good.” It’s about understanding the deeper meaning behind every project. Storytelling, representation, and crafting experiences that resonate with people are all important elements of good design.

Her approach shows that great design doesn’t just communicate. It connects. It’s about creating something that leaves a lasting impact.

Actionable Insight: Your creative work is more than just a product. It’s a form of communication. Bring more intention to your next...

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
I'm a firm believer in justpraying and asking for what you want
and just pushing yourself alsoas a human being, with intention.
Knowing what you want, knowingwhat you want for your lifestyle
and really sitting withyourself and asking yourself, can
you do this for the rest ofyour life?
Is this something you feel isnecessary to do?

(00:20):
And it's not just about themoney, because that's one thing I
definitely prayed in.
My prayer was like, I don'twant to be at a job that only felt
like I was there for the money.
I wanted something that feltlike I was doing something that I
love to wake up to do everymorning, regardless if it was.
If it was free, I would havedone it, you know?
Welcome to the StandoutCreatives, where making money and

(00:40):
creating meaningful work gohand in hand.
You're already passionateabout what you create.
Now let's turn that passioninto a standout business.
Marketing your work doesn'thave to be overwhelming.
It can actually amplify your creativity.
I'm your guide, Kevin Chung,and this podcast is your roadmap
to creative business success.

(01:01):
I'll show you how to turn yourunique talents into a business that
truly represents who you are.
Let's get started.
What if transforming yourcreative career wasn't just about
mastering design skills, butabout building community, breaking
industry barriers, and turningyour passion into a movement of representation?

(01:21):
Dominique Jones isn't justanother senior book designer at Dutton.
She's built somethingincredible that's changing how designers
of color see themselves in publishing.
Through black and brown bookdesigners, she's doing way more than
designing book covers.
She's creating opportunitiesfor people who've been shut out.

(01:42):
In this episode, we talkedabout how Dominique turned her creative
struggles into an amazingmission of empowerment.
If you ever felt like youdon't quite fit in or you're wondering
how to turn that thing thatmakes you different into your secret
superpower, this one's for you.
Welcome to another episode ofStandout Creatives.

(02:03):
Today I'm on Dominique Jones.
Dominique is a senior designerat Dutton Penguin Random House and
the president of Black andBrown Book Designers, a community
dedicated to amplifying andsupporting Black and Brown creatives
in publishing.
After discovering book designlate in college, she quickly carved
out a space for herself, butrealized how few designers of color

(02:25):
had the same opportunities.
Determined to change that, shecreated Black and Brown book designers
to foster connection,mentorship, and visibility in the
industry, where representationis still rare.
Through her work, Dominique isopening doors for the next generation
of book designers to thrive.
That's a Great mission.
Dominique, can you tell us alittle bit more about yourself and

(02:45):
how you got into some of thestuff you're doing right now?
Yeah.
So, name is Dominique, bornand raised in Brooklyn, and being
in the publishing industrystill seems so rare in itself.
It's something that mostpeople won't think of as a career
opportunity.
Once you're leaving college,you're just looking for, like, design

(03:06):
firms or maybe freelancing andso many other avenues.
And so when it came across my.
Like, when it came across, Irealized, like, oh, this is an opportunity.
And I actually was luckyenough to do an internship, which
opened my door, my eyes even more.
And so I was like, I canliterally do this for a living.

(03:26):
Like, this seems to be mycalling, a sign from God.
Like, I know this is what I'msupposed to be doing.
And so since then, I justcontinued to kind of, like, lend
a helping hand to those behindme, knowing how easy it may have
seemed from others hearing mystory, but also how difficult it
might be for those who areconstantly trying, especially in

(03:48):
this economy.
And so creating black andbrown book design is an opportunity
to network, build community,but then also build your way to success
and creative development.
Whether you're new to theindustry and just don't know about
it, or you're already in theindustry and connected, but you want
to connect more and grow moreas a creative.
There's so many opportunitiesfor people to exist in this space

(04:10):
because we all love graphicdesign and books and we just continue
to thrive together.
Awesome.
Can you talk a little bitabout growing up?
Did you read a lot of books?
Did you like the covers of the books?
Like many people, I did read alot of books.
I was constant.
Memory was like going to thepublic library, the book library

(04:33):
near my house when I lived on a.
In Can I see in Brooklyn.
I wind up, like, it was like,literally, like two blocks down.
So me and my sister wouldalways go, like, every weekend and
just sit there and just, like,admire the books.
We might not take out as manybooks or take out one or two, but
it was just constantly, like,me looking at the covers, skimming
through the pages, the smellof a new book kind of thing.

(04:56):
And then when I got tocollege, I continued doing that by
actually going to Barnes andnobles on 14th street, which I love,
14th street for the creativecommunity in itself.
And I would always go thereand tell all my friends, oh, let's
meet on 14th Street.
Just so I get there an hourearly just to skim through the book
section and look at thecovers, skim through the magazine,
take photos, and then justleave afterwards when my friends

(05:16):
like, I'm here.
I'm like, okay, I'm coming downstairs.
And it was just those littlememories always remind me of, like,
those moments again.
I'm like, okay, cool.
I.
It was like a full circlemoment, you know, like I was meant
to be here.
Like, those are little signsthat I didn't notice that was leading
me into where I'm about to be,which is now.
That's cool.

(05:37):
Did you.
Do you have a favorite book tocover when you were a kid or any,
any point in your life beforeyou started working in?
Not really.
I was always fascinated toany, like, almost whatever.
You know how, like they saydon't judge a book by its cover,
but obviously doing that forwork, you do that all the time.
It was those, those books thatjust grab your attention.

(05:59):
We're just like almost feelinglike you just your heart skipped
the beat or you lost breathfor like a quick second.
It was just either theimagery, the special effects that
were on it that was like,whoa, I never seen that before.
The big tight that was on it,the colors that stood out.
It's honestly, every singlegenre has its own little twist for

(06:20):
me that I just, I can't choosea favorite at all.
It's just, just a feeling, you know.
What about any.
Any particular stories that,that you remember?
Oh, stories I remember.
I was so into like the PrettyLittle Liar crave before it became
the TV show.

(06:40):
Sarah Shepard, all of herbooks, and was like, oh, these are
so good.
And even though those oldcovers were like, I believe it was
like the ones with like alittle Barbie doll or something on
was like very simple and plain.
But those was just like, wow.
I never knew you could put aBarbie doll on a, you know, cover
with like bright colors andtype and just the stories and her
stories in itself were like,so amazing.

(07:02):
So whatever the COVID lookedlike, I was like, if it's your shepherd,
I'm reading it.
Cool.
Yeah.
What, what did you study?
Did you study graphic design,illustration, art or.
I studied graphic design,bachelor's degree.
I went to Mercy College, whichis now called Mercy University.

(07:23):
And there was a small art department.
Everybody knew, everybodyrotated professors.
But I loved the school becauseit was very community based.
Everyone was there to helpwatch you succeed.
The students were helpfulregardless of what tier level you
was at.
And yeah, it was just very nice.

(07:46):
It's so interesting becausethat's like the opposite of the college
I went to, which had like40,000 undergraduate students at
any time.
So I think when I was walkingduring graduation, it was like a
few thousand people who are walking.
I'm like, oh, my gosh, I haveto wait so long to.
Oh, no.
My class was like, what?
Probably like less than 10 ofus in that, like, graphic design

(08:09):
department walked together.
We were like, yeah, we did this.
That's really cool.
It was nice.
Do you still keep in touchwith any of the.
We do.
We all stay connected oversocial media.
But then it's like, I have mygood one friend who we're still connected
to today.
So we talk a little bit morefrequently than other classmates.
Yeah.
Do you think there's animportance in the.

(08:32):
Well, obviously you do, but,like, what was the importance of
community when you were in thecollege program?
Community.
The points of community incollege, like, feedback.
I mean, as a designer and acreative, you're always gonna need
that.
That sense of feedback,regardless of that critical critique

(08:53):
that you might not like.
You know, it builds you tohave a tough skin to kind of take
it, you know, not take thingswith a grain of salt kind of thing,
or take things with a grain ofsalt and just kind of improve your
eye, your vision creatively,and then it's just a way to then
do the same for others and youget to see and train your eye and
like, okay, I see why they didwhat they did, and just a way to

(09:16):
just build yourself up.
And sometimes we always needsomeone to just talk to about certain
things that we might not begood at.
Because when you buildcommunity, you're helping not only
yourself, you're helping each other.
And so keeping that in mind isalways helpful, even today.
I think one of the things thatyou learn when you're first starting
ielts and anything is thatyou're going to be very bad at, no

(09:39):
matter what it is.
It's like when you firststart, you know what looks good if
you study it a lot.
But being able to do ityourself is very difficult until
you.
You get the practice in, I think.
Oh, yeah, it takes.
Takes time.
It took me time to get where Iam and still continue.
Like I always tell people,even though I'm where I am today,
that doesn't mean I don't make mistakes.

(10:01):
Like, I'm always learning.
I'm always challenging myselfto try new things.
And so there's going to bebumps in the road regardless.
But you just make sure youdon't take that too literal and continue
to push yourself to be better.
Because, of course, there'speople behind or in Front of me,
who are way better makinggreat covers.
Beautiful.
Something I possibly probablycan't do with my creative mind.

(10:24):
But I have my own style and Ihave what works for me.
And so you shouldn't reallycompare yourself or try not to compare
yourself.
When it comes to others, we'rekind of root for them at the same
time and say, okay, next timeI could try to think a little bit
more differently and pushsomething out there, because all
the books we work on is very different.
So you're always going to havea different outcome regardless of

(10:45):
what, you know, you work on.
Yeah, I think the importanceis knowing yourself and what you're
going for versus what otherpeople are doing.
Because the people who want tohire you are not the same people
that want to hire them.
They're going to hire youbecause they like you or your style
and not because they like theother person.
Maybe they do, but they choseyou because I think their connection

(11:06):
is stronger.
Yep.
So true.
And I think one of the otherthings is just to.
To be able to take in feedback.
I think that's especiallysomething you learn in college early
on is just to know that the.
The work is not you andthey're not telling you you're a
bad person.

(11:27):
If your design is not up topar, it's that your art could use
a little bit of work.
Right.
That's so true.
Do you remember any instancesof somebody giving you critical feedback
and what your state was or ifyou took it too hard or something?
I probably.

(11:47):
I remember most of thefeelings that I felt more.
So I can't remember maybe theproject itself.
I remember those moments ofgetting feedback and being like,
you know, it's not reallythere yet.
Like, what do you mean it'snot there yet?
That's the worst.
Because you want to know whatit is.
Yeah, it's like just.
Just rework it a little bit more.
Take another look.
I'm looking at it and I don'tsee what you see.

(12:09):
It was that constant feelingof like, almost feel like I'm failing,
but I had to take a step backand then just be like, okay, try
to look at refresh eyes.
Print it out.
Because when you print thingsand versus looking on a computer,
you're going to see different things.
You're going to see things aremore to the left, more to the right.
Whatever it may be,something's going to stick out when
you look at it in a different.

(12:29):
And so trying those methodsdid help over time.
Or even just again asking afriend, okay, what do you think she's.
She sees that I don't seebecause, you know, it's not making
sense.
And so sometimes that'shelpful too.
Yeah.
So anyone that can help atleast give you a little bit of an
idea is definitely helpful.
Because I think when you'reworking on something too long, you

(12:52):
can't see anything.
It's just, you're like blindto every single detail because you've
been looking at it and workingon it for so long.
You're like, I don't knowwhat, what this is anymore.
It's just, what, done Right.
Right.
Like, I don't see nothingwrong with it.
Why isn't it working?
And it's like that one little thing.
You're like, okay.
And then I think another thingis like, just taking breaks is super

(13:14):
critical when you're doing anysort of creative work.
Because it's important.
Yeah, it's important to take a break.
There's been times of like, burnout.
There's been times of just.
I would also say the otherside of that too is also.
Procrastination is another.
I find myself in moments whereI'm like, I'll think like, oh, this

(13:35):
cover is going to be easy.
I already have the idea in mymind of what I wanted to.
I'm just, I'm a wait.
And then I wait and it's likethe night before.
And then I'm like panicking.
The rush to get it.
I'm like, why none of theseimages are working?
It's like, because I waitedbecause I thought that I could get
it done as fast as possible,but no procrastination was there.
And then the moment of like, burnout.

(13:56):
It's like you're working somuch, you Forget, oh, it's 9:00 already,
12:00 already.
And you're still working dayon, day out.
And it's like you barelyremember what the sun looks like.
Those are moments when youreally gotta take a break.
Because it, it does somethingto your brain when you don't take
a break.
You just don't see things.
You can't think creatively.

(14:16):
And so when you allow yourselfto have that break, you almost like
a nice fresh air where you,like, okay, you see things a little
bit differently.
You just feel more alive thanto feel like a robot just sitting
in front of the computer dayin and day out.
So taking breaks is important.
Yeah, I think.

(14:37):
I mean, because people werenot meant to evolutionarily be doing
some sort of creative work.
So it's like sometimes it'sjust we're not built to do it, work
on something for more than afew hours a day.
We're meant to work on it afew hours at a time.
Take a break, because you haveto go when you're in the wild.

(14:59):
Before we had civilization,we're hunting and stuff.
We weren't really beingcreative all the time.
We, we took breaks to be creative.
But since that was the way weevolved, I think we're, we're not
meant to be looking atanything longer than a few hours.
Which is why I think just theway that society has set up the work

(15:20):
schedules kind of backwardsbecause I don't think at least as
a creative person.
And actually in mostindustries it's still something where
we weren't meant to be doingsomething for eight hours in a row
every day.
Yeah.
Now I remember when someplaces were saying, oh, we're gonna
do what, a four day work weekas an option.

(15:40):
I was like, oh yeah, that'd be nice.
You know, but certain in thiscertain industries or even corporate
places are just like, no,we're gonna stick to Friday work
week.
I'm like, honestly, I actuallydo that like every March I take off
because my doesn't have any holidays.
So I'm like, okay, I'm gonnatake off every Friday in March and
that's gonna be my four day weekend.
And heck yeah, I enjoy itbecause it's the best time ever just

(16:03):
to.
I feel.
You feel like you work morelike someone, you push yourself more
within those four days.
So then when that weekendcomes, you're like, oh, I can relax.
I can do what I want to.
I could do nothing for thewhole weekend and have a great weekend.
You know, you don't have tolook for that two day weekend.
Saturday, Sunday feels likeone day, you know, so it's nice.

(16:25):
Yeah.
And then it's like you feelmore refreshed because you have time
to take a break.
And when you come back in, youcan get to it faster because you're,
you know, you have stuff toget done.
Right.

(16:45):
Can you talk about gettingyour internship?
Yeah.
So my internship, I like totell people.
Well, I'll tell you a long story.
So my internship was senioryear of college.
I prior to that actually I dida bunch of internships.
And after trying them all, Iwas like, nothing feels right.

(17:06):
I want something that feelslike home, something that feels like
I'm meant to be doing this.
And so I constantly prayedabout it and then little behold.
When it was my senior project,we had like senior night Senior show
kind of thing.
And so people from all overcome and see it.
And I remember the day after,I got an email, which I thought was
a spam, and someone from thebar was like, hey, you know, someone

(17:31):
recommended you.
You should apply for this internship.
I'm like, I want to do aninternship this year because I wanted
to enjoy my summer.
Every other summer for thepast three years, I've been doing
internships.
I don't want to do anything.
I was like, you know what?
Let me just apply.
What's going to happen?
Little Behold.
I got it.
And they were like, okay, cool.
You're going to come in onthis day.
And this time I'm like, fine, whatever.

(17:51):
I'll just do it with no.
Just, like, no care in the world.
I'm just going to wing it,whatever the case is.
Brought my thesis project.
Talk their ears off about it.
And then after that, they werelike, okay, we got, like, two other
people we're going to interview.
Okay, cool.
But for some reason, when Iwalked in that day, it was like,
it felt like I've been there before.
Like, it felt warm, like ahome feeling.

(18:12):
But I couldn't pinpoint whatit was in that moment.
So after that, I was like,okay, cool, I'll go home.
The week after, I got an emailagain that said, oh, you got it.
You're going to be in theinternship for the summer.
I was like, man, I really got it.
Like, I was tight, but I wasalso happy at the same time.
Like, you know what it is,what it is?
It's New York money.
They pay us a couple, and Iget to, like, experience alone and

(18:33):
meet new people.
It's going to be whatever.
I'll be in and out the door,no problem.
The day of the internship, thefirst day I arrived to go to the
front test to get my id, andthen all of a sudden, I felt this,
like, everything around mewent radio silence.
And I was like, this is weird.
And for some reason, I feltthis voice in, like, this warm feeling

(18:53):
of, like, God telling me,like, you made it.
You don't have to look anymore.
This is it.
And I was like, okay, reallydon't believe you, but I'm gonna
do whatever.
For some reason, I just hadthis biggest smile on my face from
day in and day out, going intothis internship, like, I'ma be here.
I'ma stay.
And, like, just lollygaggingaway and everything around, just

(19:16):
learning and absorbing so much information.
I was like, oh, this is it.
This is my life.
I'm gonna be Here for X, Y and Z.
I was just so happy and justbeing like, oh, this is my home.
And then my last week there, Iwas like, okay, we're like two days
left before the last day thisinternship is over.
And I'm like, I didn't hear anything.
So am I being played at this point?

(19:37):
And I'm like praying to God oflike, please let me get something.
And then right before the lasthour or so, my current boss, he emailed
me and says, oh, there's apart time position.
Would you take it?
I'm like, yes, you're about totell me what it was.
I don't care if it was adesign assistant, whatever it was.
I just wanted to be in thisplace that felt like this is my calling.

(19:58):
And since then I've been withthe same team and same imprint and
continue to thrive.
And always, for some strangereason, I'm always having these full
circle moments of working onprojects that I've used to.
The books that I used to readwhen I was younger, like Sarah Shepard,
who worked on Pretty O Liars,I did, I think one or two of her
books.
And I was like, this is a fullcircle moment.

(20:18):
And just working on, you know,Raisin in the sun, what I used to
read in school, those littlemoments of like, wow, like this is,
this is what I'm supposed tobe doing for the rest of my life.
And it feels like home, youknow, so that's, that's my long winded
story of how the internshipgot to this.
Moment that's so interesting.

(20:39):
What do you think it was that.
That made you have that feeling?
I don't know.
I think honestly, prayer.
I'm a Christian, so I'm a firm believer.
And just praying and askingfor what you want and just pushing
yourself also as a human being of.
With intention, knowing whatyou want, knowing what you want for
your lifestyle, and reallysitting with yourself and asking

(21:00):
yourself, can you do this forthe rest of your life?
Is this something you feel isnecessary to do?
And it's not just about themoney, because that's one thing I
definitely prayed in.
My prayer was like, I don'twant to be at a job that only felt
like I was there for the money.
I wanted something that feltlike I was doing something that I
love to wake up to do everymorning, regardless if it was, if

(21:22):
it was free, I would have doneit, you know.
And so when you really sitwith yourself and find out what you
really want to do, it'll cometo you.
And sometimes we're alreadydoing the work that we are set to
be doing, but we don't havethat time to sit down and really
think about it.
So, yeah, I think sometimesit's just life leads us somewhere

(21:45):
and it just fits and it couldjust be luck, you know, some.
Some things are just luck andyou, you make it the best that you
can, but then sometimes it'slike a perfect match like you found,
which is amazing.
Yeah.
What is it about the teamthere that that makes it a great

(22:05):
place to work?
I'm blessed to have a greatteam who's very helpful and willing
to lend a helping hand when needed.
Sometimes there's projectswhere I'm like, I'm just not getting
it.
It's not making any sense.
Or sometimes we're all like,hey, can everybody hop on this one
project like the covers thatwe showed previously?
It's just not working.

(22:26):
We just need everyone'ssupport and everyone is willing to
hop on and take that leap andhelp out even when people are absent,
take on people's projects andhelp them out.
And so it's that sense ofcommunity and support that's there
and I think that's trulyimportant to have.
And feeling like you're beingseen and heard, that's another thing.

(22:47):
So that way, you know, likepeople also willing to advocate for
you when you're not, you'renot coming from the same background
as them or don't feel like youhave the same access as them.
They're willing to support youin that too.
That's another thing that's important.
Yeah.
I mean, those are all parts ofa great team.
And the people who don't havethose things, you, you know why that

(23:11):
things aren't working?
It's because you don't haveall those elements of support in
commun.
Community and like just peoplesupporting each other, which is what
makes a good team.
And sometimes teams fall apartbecause they don't have that sort
of, you know, connection toeach other.
How does it.
What is the process forsomebody choosing you to be the book

(23:36):
designer?
Is it delegated to you?
Is it.
They choose what style they like.
And so usually it could gomultiple ways.
So like from an in houseperspective, when we get a list of
titles for the season, my team works.
If we're like, we're like,hey, I want to work on this title.
This title seems interesting.
Here's my, for example, topfive titles.

(23:59):
It's usually more than that.
But like for example, and thenget the titles and then I'm able
to work on it myself.
Or if I feel like based on theeditor and author's response to their
cover of what they want it tolook like.
This more likely can fitsomeone who's like an illustrator.
And I'm not good atillustration sometimes, so I'll give
it to someone else who's goodand has a specific style.

(24:20):
They'll prove if they wantthat specific illustrator, then hand
it off to them to work on it.
And so it's like now you'redoing part collaboration, part independent
work at the same time.
So you're able to also broadenyour scope of different people to
hire in and out.
And then there's times where,for the freelancer side, when I'm

(24:41):
not like outside of my 9 to 5,people would reach out to me based
upon a specific style or like,they see a cover on my website that
they really like and they wantsomething to mimic off of that or
use that big energy that, youknow, this cover specifically that
they pointed out uses in that sense.
Or they just feel like I'm agreat fit for trying out this project

(25:01):
based upon like my portfolioin itself overall.
So it depends on what it is.
But generally they're alwayslooking for like, each book has a
story and each book needs aspecific designer or illustrator
based upon that style thatneeds to be told in that specific
way.
So do you usually get to read,do you get to read the book before?

(25:24):
Okay.
I mean, that's how we design.
I mean, there are sometimeswhere we don't read, but 9 out of
10 times I'm reading the book,whether it's the first couple 30
pages that they give of, like,hey, we don't have much, but this
is what we got to read.
So far the manuscript is stillbeing worked on.
It's like, okay, cool.
And other times it's like, youknow, the 300 and something pages
already stacked and ready togo and I'm like skimming through

(25:45):
every single page to get asmuch information as possible.
Or sometimes like withmemoirs, nine out of ten times they're
like, you know, celebritiesand there's like photo shoots and
stuff like that.
So I don't have time to reallyread it unless they want to point
out something like specificbased upon their childhood and use
little elements that way.
Then sometimes that might playa part in reading something.

(26:05):
But yeah, each one is different.
But generally, yeah, we're reading.
Okay.
Yeah, I mean, it makes themost sense to know as much as you
possibly can.
I guess it depends on yourworkload, how many books you can
read.
Because that obviously takestime too.
So it's like, how much time do.
You have to dedicate reader?
I like to enjoy.
And that's the thing too.
When you're in the industry,you have to learn how to read differently.

(26:28):
You can't read as an averagereader and just enjoy the book.
You have to read and like,okay, what am I going to pinpoint
this?
This scene right here ispinning something down that I could
use imagery for in some way.
You have to really think andread differently at the same time.
And it took me a while tounderstand how to do that because
I was so used to just readinga story and be like, wow, this is

(26:49):
great, or I didn't like it.
And so when it came to work, Iwas like, oh, I have to read, highlight
whatever it is that helps mein my process.
I have to figure that out for myself.
Like a moment or a feelingwithin the book that you.
You found particularly interesting.
So do you.
Do you pitch multiple ideas ordo you.

(27:11):
Yes, that's important to.
We call them like, likecompositions in some sense.
So, like, I'll try one that'smaybe like type focus, one with imagery,
one with image and type, onewith obscure type, one with, I don't
know, maybe illustration toit, little elements around it.

(27:33):
So you're trying differentthings that make sense to the story
and try the best to kind ofput that voice, bring that voice
out.
And so trying different thingsis very helpful.
And when you're working withsomebody as a freelancer, do you.
Do they give you just the ideaof what they're looking for?

(27:55):
Do they give you parts ofstuff to read or how does that work?
Usually, whenever.
So, like, for example, I wasworking with this past season with
an illustrator, and so it waslike a rom com kind of book, can't
spill much tea.
But what we did was the authorand agent came with like, oh, this
is a character description.
They put like, you know,images of models of like, I want

(28:18):
the character to like this,she wears glasses and this and that.
And then the male characterlooks like this tall, muscular, black
hair, nice, you know, niceoutfit, wearing, whatever the case
is, every down to the T.
And then I'll take thatinformation and be like, okay, give
it to the illustrator.
This is what they want.
This is the vibe they're going for.
And the illustrator would doher thing or his thing and just work

(28:40):
on it.
And from there they send abouta couple of sketches.
We usually say a good three,sometimes five.
Some of them send like a bunchsometimes, which is helpful.
To kind of stare in a direction.
And then those will really berough sketches sometimes.
And then I would then, at thatpoint, take the sketches and then
work on it and add.
Sometimes I'll add some colorif it's needed, to kind of show or

(29:02):
emphasize what it is.
But I always, at the end ofthe presentation, show the illustrator's
work so that they can rememberthis is what the end result is going
to look like.
And I would just add ontothose sketches, like, some typeface
options.
Maybe I'll letter some things,or sometime, if they're a good letter,
we'll say, hey, can you throwin some lettering options too?
And then we can montage thingsand just make it look cohesive.

(29:23):
So then that way the team hasa big scope of options to look at.
They'll choose which ones theywant to send through the author.
Then the author would comeback with feedback, and then we'll
move on to the next step oflike, okay, they really like this.
Let's move on to the nextstep, which is color.
And they'll add color orfinalize small little details until
it's good to go.
Do you remember the moment youfirst saw one of your book designs,

(29:48):
like, on a shelf?
I remember because it.
It was sucked because it was 2020.
Oh, my gosh.
And I was waiting to go into a bookstore.
So my first book I ever workedon that got published.
I actually got it mailed to mebecause, you know, things were already.
Stores were closed.
It was like, you know, it's cute.

(30:08):
It was nice little feeling.
But my first.
My first book in the bookstorewas probably like my third or fourth
book by that point that I'veworked on, because we work a year
in advance, so it was likeprior season.
And so seeing that in abookstore, I remember taking a photo
and my whole family came,like, we all went into the bookstore
together looking for thisbook, and we're like, where is.
Excuse me, do you have this?
And we're like, what aisle?

(30:29):
And we're like, all walkingtogether like little ducks.
And then finally found the book.
And I'm like, modeling withthe book and we're all taking photos.
It was just a little nicemoment, especially experiencing that
with my family at the same time.
But even now, every time Iwalk by a bookstore, I'm, like, looking
to see what covers that are onthe shelves, which one hit the front
row or just roaming around.

(30:50):
And it's nice to just be like,wow, like, that's something I did,
you know?
Yeah, it's very interesting tobe A part of.
Yeah.
Something out in the worldthat a lot of people see because
most people don't get the opportunity.
Yeah.
And it's funny because, like,even going into the bookstores now,
I'm like, oh, I know whodesigned that.
I know who designed thatbefore even looking at the credit

(31:11):
because, like, you would justknow everyone's style.
Sometimes you're like.
Or be surprised that, oh, so.
And so did this.
Like, oh, that's nice.
You know, so it's.
It's cool.
So there's a strong sense of community.
Is it within your.
Your company or is it justthroughout anybody?
Like the industry in itself,publishing seems very big, but it's

(31:32):
also very small, especially inthe design, you know, sector.
Right.
Everyone knows everybody.
Someone who used to work withsomebody, used to be someone's art
director.
And so you're always in fullcircle of connecting with so many
from years to come, new, newfaces and old faces.
And it's always nice to know,you know, and see people's work from

(31:52):
all over.
Yeah.
What is your favorite style towork with?
I like being on the computer,like, digitally.
But there's moments where I'm like.
I like to just have thatmoment to step away from the computer
and really just letter thingsor just play with paint or markers,

(32:15):
whatever it is.
But I say digitally, sometimes.
It's usually best just becauseit seems faster.
Yeah.
How hard is it to translatesomething that you do physically
onto the.
It's not that hard.
You just gotta have a goodscanner, get it at the highest dpi,

(32:35):
and then make sure you're goodto go.
We usually do, like 600 SL resolution.
So when you can scale it bigor make it smaller, it doesn't really
change in itself.
It'll get, like, pixelated.
Or sometimes you just try newthings just to kind of, you know,
make it work.
Photograph.
I used to.
I did a couple of projectsbefore where I would photograph that,
like, object and then, youknow, put it into Photoshop and play

(32:58):
with the colors and make surethe shadows was good.
So.
Do you.
Do you do anything else notbook design related to boost your
creativity?
So something outside of actualdesigning of.
Books, like watching tv, Ithink, doing, like.

(33:20):
Honestly, I haven't found acreative outlet yet.
I want to get into, like.
What is it called?
Lino.
Linocut, I think it's called.
Or nanograph.
Oh, I don't know.
Yeah, like the silk press thing.
I want to get into that one day.
But creatively, honestly, Ihaven't found that yet.
But as of now, I just watch TVor eat ice cream or.

(33:45):
That's not really creativebecause I feel like it helps me think
differently and helps my brainget a rest, you know.
So it's very helpful.
Do you, have you ever drawninspiration from like a moment watching
tv?
There, there are momentssometimes where I am watching TV
and I'm like, oh, wait, thisis, this is the moment that I could

(34:07):
use this creative object for something.
And it's, it's very helpful at times.
Especially when I was workingwith a lot of like thriller and suspense
novels, I would watch likemovies that were in that same vein,
Blake watching and like, oh,that's it right there.
The kitchen scene.
Something about it that canreally spark an idea.
Yeah, I think to having asmany like creative inputs is very

(34:32):
important as a creative person.
So.
So that way you can drawinspiration from pretty much anything
as long as you're observantenough and you have the ability to
like, capture that thought aslike something that you can bring
towards your work.
Right?
Yeah, no, that's true.

(34:52):
Can you talk about the blackand Brown book designers group?
So black and my book designersstarted from around 2019, like a
year after I got into thepublishing industry.
I realized the lack ofdiversity because I couldn't find
people that look like me in design.
Everybody I met was like editorial.

(35:13):
And so like, it got me upsetbecause I was like, I know there's
people out there who aregraphic designers.
I want to talk about kerning,I want to talk about type and color
and like special effects.
But there just wasn't anyoneelse besides my team, which I'm grateful
for.
But I just knew there was sucha weird gap that was missing.
And so from there, around2020, when everybody was doing a

(35:34):
lot of advocating for like theblack community and everyone else
too.
It was just like, that was amoment that woke me up and was like,
I'm gonna do something becauseit's much needed.
And so when I opened up thespace, it became a Instagram account,
then turned into a website andnow it's formed, well, forming into

(35:57):
becoming a 501c3 non profit.
And so with that it's justcontinuing to do what I needed was
find community, havecommunity, but also gain access and
resources to learn and adaptinto the publishing industry.
And so we have workshops,programs, discussions, networking

(36:17):
events, all dedicated tographic design and books.
And so teaching people how todesign, talking about design, anything
and everything.
It's what's needed.
And so we just continue toadvocate for one another and push
that through and hopefullychange the publishing industry one

(36:37):
person at a time.
Yeah, I think every movementstarts with one person, obviously.
And then obviously it growsfrom there.
How did you grow your thegroup or the program?
So for a while it was myselfjust doing the work after my 9 to

(37:00):
5.
And then at some point I waslike, I need help.
And so I just generally asklike, hey, who wants to help out
and volunteer?
And so.
So when you have a missionthat people stand for and believe
in, they willing to help youout too.
And so I'm very grateful forall the volunteers from past and
present and future whocontinue to help support, grow the
programs into what it is.

(37:22):
We constantly are thinking ofnew and innovative ways to gain community
and access and just.
Yeah.
How much time do you dedicateto it?
It's probably too much time.
Remember when we were saying,like, give ourselves a break?
That's not me.

(37:42):
I'm learning how to do thatthis year.
So honestly, it takes a lot.
I find myself working on itway too many times.
But it just goes to show,like, I have a passion for it and
I'm willing to help see itthrough to the best that it needs
to be and always perfectingevery little thing.
But giving myself a break isreally needed for myself this year.

(38:05):
And putting calendar dates oflike, only on this day and this day
is why I'm working on it andreally stick to it.
Slowly but surely getting there.
When you started, you weredoing all the work or how early did
you bring people in?
Because I think one of the hard.
Things, it was a hot minute.
It was like I was doing thisprobably for like almost two, three

(38:28):
years by myself.
And it existed for like fiveyears, since 2020.
So, yeah, I was doing it allby myself.
And so there a little bit hereand there.
In like the second, thirdyear, there were like a few people
that were helping.
But it was hard for me to givework to help, like, to other people
because I was like, oh, I'lldo it.
You know, it'd just be easy.
And so then I had to reallysit with myself and was like, no,

(38:49):
I need help because I can't dothis alone.
And so when, you know, becauseyou just have this hard time sometimes
giving something that youbuilt away and it's not like you're
really giving it away, it'smore so you just, you know, helping
get involved.
But people aren't going to putin the same effort as you do.
So then you find yourselffalling back sometimes and being
like, I'll just do it myself.

(39:10):
And So I really have to belike, okay, who do I really trust
and value their input toreally help me see this through?
And so what I give everyone onmy team grace of knowing, like, life
happens, give ourselves abreak, even though I don't, and,
you know, we'll get it done.
And so a lot of learningcurves and continuing to just be

(39:34):
grateful of the support thatI've gotten so far and still do.
Do you have very specific.
Because you're.
Well, unwillingness to let goearly was very difficult.
Did you have to, like, explainin detail what you thought the vision
should be, or was it more of a collaborative?

(39:56):
It was really.
It really explaining sometimes.
But at the same time, I alsomake sure it's very collaborative.
Like, I allow people, I telleveryone on my team, like, if you
have an event in mind and youwant to see it through, so be it.
As long as it fits in linewith the organization and what we
stand for.
I can't see why I would sayno, you know, so it's.

(40:19):
I allow people to have avoice, and that's what I want people
to do is know, like, theirvoice matters.
And this community isn't justbuilt by me, for me, it's built for
us, by us.
And so that's how I continueto put that through.
Every time we have an event orsomeone's willing to volunteer their
time, it's like your voice matters.

(40:39):
So put in what you want to seeand you do it.
I think one of the things thatalmost everybody wishes is that they
would have had somebody toshow them what is possible.
And I think it's great thatyou've built this thing where you're
building the bridge betweenyour generation and the next set

(41:02):
of people to come up, which isalways like, an amazing feeling because
it's something that you wouldhave wanted when you were starting
out, right?
Yeah, and I still do.
Sometimes there's momentswhere I was like, man, I need community.
And I'll just hit everybody uplike, hey, you guys want happy hour?
And like, oh, I'm like, hey,let's have a happy hour.
Because I need a happy hourright now.
You know, I need a vet.
And so, like, having thatcommunity, it's very helpful.

(41:26):
Where do you.
How do you pitch people?
I guess libraries is probablya good place, but where else do you,
like, present through the group?
Libraries is definitely oneand pulling a plug.
We have our library.
We have a librarycollaboration coming up with the
New York Public Library, andwe're going to be at two branches,

(41:47):
one in Manhattan and one inthe Bronx actually tomorrow, and
then one the following weekendand hopefully more in the future.
And so, yeah, pitching to themis usually like, as long as we or
any type of organization orbrand, it's more like we look at
the value of what they standfor and who their community is and

(42:07):
make sure we all align andjust put that at the forefront.
Because we don't want topartner with people who just don't
believe in the same thing we do.
And so that's the mainimportant thing.
Whenever we're looking forcollaborations or sponsors, anybody
who's willing to just collabwith us at any level, we're just
always looking for that.
And then the intention behind.

(42:28):
Are you willing to put in 100%in this collaboration as much as
we are?
Because we don't need a 50, 25or, you know, 125 of effort being
put in.
We want to make sure we allare on the same page, communicating
and building that strong, thatstrong connection, not only just
for the moment, but even long term.

(42:50):
Yeah, I think that's with any,any sort of partnership, it's always
important that both sides ofthe equation are fully committed
to the idea.
And sometimes when you get ano, is it for a good reason?
Right.
Because one side or the otherwas not gonna put in the actual commitment

(43:12):
to make it work.
Right.
So don't always take rejectionas something negative.
Sometimes it's.
It's happening for a goodreason, you know, that's true.
Is it the same way that itworks for, like, pitching to the
library, pitching to a sponsoror something?
Or is it different?

(43:35):
Yeah, no, it's pretty much the same.
Like when we're pitching thesponsors, we try to make sure, like,
we align in some capacity andjust tell them, like, what we're
doing.
And if they stand by and trulybelieve in what we do, they support
us.
And so we are very gratefulfor all the sponsors we've had thus
far.
So.
And can hopefully do more inthe future.

(43:59):
Oh, you are breaking up for a second.
Can you talk about some of thefirst people that you helped get
jobs by through the group?
Oh, that's a number.
We're trying to figure out,number wise, of how we stay, how

(44:21):
we get those stats, prettymuch of how we continue to involve
in that, helping them buildthat out.
But we have helped a few.
And so those who we've helpedis definitely with our portfolio
review.
We usually host that everyonce in a while, which are hoping
to have more this year.
And so with that, it'sAllowing them to talk to already

(44:45):
industry designers, learnabout what it is to add in their
portfolio.
We also do resume reviews andquickly take a look at that too and
be like, okay, what is it thatI need help to improve this and that?
And so having that as anoption allows people just still build
that connection too, with thisperson that they're speaking with,
but also be able to involve inseeing what they didn't see and how

(45:09):
to make their portfolio alittle bit better.
But when they apply, what arethe most common things that people
don't realize when they'retrying to get jobs?
And then you have to kind ofpush, nudge them in the right direction.
Definitely putting things inmock ups, that's one thing.
Like a lot of people just putlike the image on the screen and

(45:29):
it's like, it's good when yousee it in a mock up because that's
what it's gonna become.
You know, you gotta put it inthe form of a book.
Look, see what it looks likefrom every angle and that way you're
able to see.
Okay.
Oh, man.
Maybe the image or the type istoo big.
I gotta shrink it down alittle bit.
Because when it's just animage, it's just an image.

(45:49):
Yeah, it's hard to imagine.
Yeah, yeah, it's hard toimagine what that's physically gonna
look like.
So that's one thing I'vedefinitely noticed.
Yeah.
I think when you can put theperson viewing the image in the scenario
in which they would see it, ithelps to give you a better idea of
what it can be as opposed to.

(46:09):
If you just give them animage, you're making them do the
work in order to see it, whichis not, not a great idea, I think.
No, that's so true.
Do you have any places yourecommend where people can get mock
ups ready?
I know there's a few places,but I don't know if you have any

(46:30):
specifically for books.
Oh, a friend of mine, I'mgonna throw her in the plug.
Her name is Monique Sterling.
She created these amazing mockups for books.
You could definitely check itout on her website.
She has like a shop availableand it's from all different sizes,
paper overboards, hardcovers, paperbacks.
It's like amazing just to seebecause she also used to be in the

(46:53):
industry too, so she knowswhat it's like to present the book
in the forefront.
And she's made amazing mockups and continue to do such great
work with that too.
Because a lot of thesewebsites are just like, they'll Be
iffy about downloading it froma website and so that her website
is a great resource.
Yeah.
Make sure you're getting itfrom a place where you have the rights

(47:17):
to use it.
Right.
Is one.
And then that it's like goodenough quality to be up to standards
of people who would be lookingat it to judge whether or not they
would want to hire you.
I think.
Yeah.
No, that's so true.
You got to have thepresentation like.
Like a chef always going tohave the plate.
The presentation is whatmatters, of course, the product in

(47:38):
itself.
But presentation is key.
Yeah.
What are some of your favoritedesigns from either your.
What you've done recently or what.
What you've seen out in the world.
Is there anything like,interesting that you've never seen
before?

(48:00):
I can't think of.
I think I'm always, I guess togive an answer.
I'm surprised when they seelike all these effects come out,
like sometimes because likefor us we use a lot of.
Just most of our effects arejust matte.
So it's always nice to seelike how people are doing special
effects when it's like gloss,deboss, foil, how they're putting
it on or what, like whatthey're using it for.

(48:22):
It's just.
It's always nice to see when abook comes out and it's like, has
that special look or even justthe end papers like, whoa, that is.
That's nice.
And that's so rare to come by.
What, what other aspects ofthe book process are you familiar
with?
Do you work with authors asfar as in the publishing industry,

(48:46):
do you work with any pr.
What other parts of themachine are you kind of involved
in, if any?
Just the COVID and the jacketpretty much.
There's a rare occasion, likeyears ago I was asked to work on,
to try seeing.
Putting some things.
It was like a book cover abouta cat, about cats.
And so we try to do like amock up.

(49:06):
And so I will not a mock.
We did a.
I did a mockup of a tote bagthat had like little kittens on it.
It didn't get full, it didn'tget approved.
But it was cute to kind of seeand carry that throughout in a different
way and, you know, having funwith it.
So you don't do any of themarking materials.
It's just.
Literally just the.
No.
Just covers.

(49:27):
So there's a whole other team that.
There's a whole nother teamthat does.
All the work that takes all of.
The marketing that we getasked to do certain things.
You know, Interesting.
Yeah.
So I guess I'm wondering ifthe other parts of the book making
process are also isolated intheir own silos or if it's just because

(49:48):
you're working on one very,very specific aspect of the book.
You know, there's a team for everything.
Like, there's a team who doesthe, you know, cover reveals graphics.
There's a team that does theinterior, the jacket.
Well, sometimes, like, we'redoing the jackets too, but in some
cases, depending on, you know,the size of the team or the capacity,

(50:10):
some people.
Somebody else might be doingit for you.
So, yeah, it's interestingthat people don't really realize
that.
They think, oh, you got thisone book, you're going to work on
the whole thing throughout.
It's like, no, I don't have time.
I only do so many covers to make.
You're asking for too much onthis bare minimum salary.

(50:30):
How many covers do you usuallywork on at a time?
About probably a little bitless than 10 at time.
There's probably cases wheresome people work on more than that,
but I need sleep, you know, soteach his own.
Is that like, they're all,like, staggered as far as where you
are in the progress of makingthem, or they're all like, at 10
at a time and the deadlines are.

(50:52):
It did.
So we give ourselves.
So there's like, deadlines, ofcourse, like, usually the average
is like two weeks or three weeks.
So it depends.
There's certain ones where I'mlike, probably working on two covers
to show that same week ormaybe three.
And so that's a juggle in itself.
And it depends becausesometimes you'll get one done.
It comes back early, thefeedback, or then it comes back later
on.

(51:12):
It's.
You just never know.
You just really have to juggle.
And that's when that, likethat time concept, time management,
do not procrastinate comesinto play.
Yeah, I mean, I thinksometimes time restraints are good,
but not if you're not preparedfor it.
Right.
Like, I think it's only goodif you know that it's gonna be something

(51:35):
that's imposed versussomething that's, you know, just
coming up.
Oh, my gosh, it's.
I have to do it by.
It reminds me of like taking atest in school when you have those
nightmares.
Is that I'm not really aboutthe covers I work with.
I'm like, oh, man, did I sendthe right file?
Is it an RGB or cmyk?
Is that even visible?

(51:56):
Did I make sure it was bleed?
It's always something that.
Yeah.
No, every once in a whilethose jeans come apart.
Yeah.
Just being prepared aspossible is also, I think, an important
part of the process.
What is, what is your processfrom start to finish of a design?

(52:20):
Of course, reading.
Then after reading, afterlooking at all my notes, I usually.
So I break things down interms like notes that I felt was
inspired by specific, maybelike a tone of it which helps with
type, and then the specificimagery in itself.
And so then I kind of montagethe two.

(52:42):
I spend like a couple of dayslooking up type, then a couple of
days looking up imagery, andthen I combine the two.
Then maybe I do more imageresearch, more type research, and
kind of find one that prettymuch almost like pairing of which
one works overall and has thatgood feeling and then trying all
the crazy special effects ifit's needed to test things out.

(53:02):
Gotcha.
What advice would you give tosomebody who's interested in the
idea of becoming a book cover designer?
Definitely always go to abookstore and check out the books
that are out there.
That's where you're gonna findthe latest and the greatest covers
that are out there.
Look behind in the COVIDcredits, look up the people who are,

(53:24):
you know, giving the credit toit, whether it's an illustrator or
a designer, and just look and get.
Get familiar with otherpeople's work.
And not only just the coversthat you or the stories that you
like, sometimes look at thecovers in the genre that you really
don't.
You know, that's not really astrong suit because that's how you're
going to also find creativityin itself in a whole new way.

(53:47):
So don't shy away from that.
Yeah.
Sometimes I think the idea isto do the opposite of what everyone
else is doing in order to bethe one that.
Oh, this is interesting.
I've never seen a fantasynovel with whatever this cover is,
you know.
No, that's so true.
But I think the one thing islike expectation versus what you.

(54:13):
What you see.
So it's like you have to balance.
People expect to see whenyou're looking for fantasy, this
very specific thing.
And if you have something outthere, it may or may not work.
So I think the only way toknow is to.
To kind of just pitch it andsee what the response is.
Right.
That's true.

(54:33):
Cool.
I have a few more questions left.
Let me see.
Do you know anyone personallywho also runs a standout creative
business and what do they doto stand out?
I would give a shout out tothe one thing that came to Mind is

(54:56):
Zoe.
She's the designer andcreative behind I Need a Book cover
dot com.
And so her website is almostvery similar in vein, like highlighting
other designers who are in thepublishing industry.
And she's been doing amazingwork too.
She has a blog, you can readall about stuff and a bunch of covers

(55:17):
that are put in almost,probably daily or weekly of what's
out there.
It's almost like your virtualops, your virtual bookstore.
You can just see the coversthat are out there.
It's amazing work.
And so just shouting her out.
Cool.
Are there any other, like groups?
I think there was another onethat you mentioned on your site for

(55:38):
helping find publishers or.
Well, I forget what it was exactly.
There's.
Which one.
Are you talking about theindie pages?
Yes.
That's okay.
The indie pages.
Yeah.
That's like a.
I would say like a littlepartnership website that we had going
on.
And it's still, still going on.

(56:00):
It's where independent authorscan find resources of whether or
not the route of being selfpublished or traditionally published
is a directory where you canfind editors, illustrators, designers,
and it's just amazing resource.
And so that's pretty much thatstemmed from the constant emails
that I was getting at onepoint of being like, do you.

(56:20):
Are you guys a business?
Do you guys help independent authors?
And although we do at acertain scale, we couldn't really
give as much effort to that avenue.
And so having that extrawebsite, which was created by Monique
Sterling, she put all thatinformation, interviewed a bunch
of people in the industry andgot as much knowledge and resources
and added that all in onelittle hub.

(56:41):
So it's a great resource forindependent authors, for themselves.
That's awesome.
Sometimes the biggestopportunities come after something
else comes before it.
That is a perfect example ofan opportunity because people are
asking about it.
So this is something thatpeople need.
But I know somebody else who can.

(57:03):
Yeah.
So that's why I thinkpartnerships are often a great idea.
Because you can point eachother to the other person to get
stuff done with people you trust.
Yep.
What is one extraordinarybook, podcast, documentary or tool
that has made the biggestimpact on your journey?
Oh, there was a book called.

(57:25):
I think it's called Big Magic.
That was one book that was really.
That pretty much gave me alittle sense of courage too, at the
same time, after reading it,because it was really about pushing
your idea and just doing itand not just wait around.
Because if you wait around,the universe is going to pass along
to someone else who's going todo it.

(57:46):
And so nowadays Whenever Ihave an idea, I'm like, oh, I'm just
going to do it without fear.
I'm just going to push to it,get what I need to get done.
And if I fail at it, so be it.
As long as I know I'm puttingin the work to make it work, that's
the outcome and that's what itneeds to be put in.
You know, that's, that's whatit's going to show, that effort behind

(58:07):
it and community and supportwould follow once they.
Yeah, I think as, as long asyou're passionate about something
and you give it that effort,it's something that can happen.
It may take a while,obviously, depending on how much
support you have.
But it's always important to,to at least give it a try or make

(58:27):
an attempt before you saying Igive up.
Because that's often whatseparates somebody who makes it versus
someone who doesn't.
That's true.
What do you think makes acreative business stand out and what
is one piece of advice thatyou would give based on your experience
to help somebody stand out?

(58:50):
Definitely having trust, Ithink, in your community or building
that trust for your community.
I saw a lot of people wouldjust sometimes about like numbers
and getting, you know, goingviral, X, Y and Z.
But it's like there's adifference between having community
and followers.

(59:10):
The community are going toback you up regardless of what you
do and how you do it becausethey believe and they trust in that
mission versus a follower.
Just gonna look around and seewhat you do and maybe like a few
posts here.
But are they going to donate?
Are they going to show up?
Are they going to support youwhen you need that support, a helping
hand when something goes wrong?
And so there's a differencebetween the two.

(59:32):
So yeah, I think.
I don't know if you've heardabout Kevin Kelly's 1000 true fans,
but it's like instead ofhaving like a million people follow
you, it's better to have 1,000true fans, people who are going to
back you no matter whatinstead of going for the virality
or, you know, the giant audience.

(59:52):
Because most of those peopledon't really care that much.
That's so true.
Can you give the listeners achallenge that they can take action
on right now to start standing out.
Man.

(01:00:13):
Okay.
A challenge is.
Man, it's gonna need a minute.
A challenge is like standingout, man.
I don't, Can I skip the question?
I don't know.
That's a challenge in itself.
I need to do that challenge.
You can think about it andI'll just edit it out.
Okay.
Okay.

(01:00:33):
A challenge.
Oh, man.
Man, I don't know.
A challenge.
Yeah.
I can't.
I can't give you one.
What would you.
What would you challengeyourself to do right now?
Maybe to not work on thecomputer so much.

(01:00:56):
Perfect.
I would say.
Yeah.
Okay, there's my answer.
I would say not to work on thecomputer so much.
Take a step back, Just takeout a pen and paper the old school
way and just draw, sketch,letter, whatever it is.
Go outside, go for a walk,take your phone, take some photos,
go back into a bookstore andjust start from scratch rather than

(01:01:21):
jumping right onto a computerand hitting Google.
Yeah.
I think most of our instinctsare to automatically go right into
whatever it is.
And I think sometimes we.
We neglect the physical worldbecause there's a world out there
that exists beyond thecomputer screen.

(01:01:42):
Right.
And I think it's important toalways go back, especially into nature,
not only just to getinspiration, but also to get some
sunlight, because that's something.
Or exercise just somethingthat's not always related to the
screen.
That's true.
Yeah.
Awesome.
Well, it's been great talkingto you, Dominique.

(01:02:04):
Can you let people know wherethey can find you and keep up to
date with what you're up to?
Sure.
For personal connections, youcan follow me on Instagram at.
I am Dominique with three E'son my website, dominiquejones.org
that's W O R K.
Follow Black and bumbledesigner support us blackaboutbook

(01:02:28):
designers.com well, blackaboutbook designers organization.
Bnbbook designers.com is thewebsite, and on most of our platforms,
we're called BnB bookdesigners as well, which is Instagram.
Threads.
What else?
YouTube.
We have substack, but yeah.
Yeah.

(01:02:48):
And that's not spelled exactlyblack and brown.
It's blk and then B rwn.
Yes, thank you for pointingthat out.
So if you search for that, ifyou type it in Google, either way,
it still comes up.
But I did notice there's also,like, a bookstore with the same name,
which is interesting.
Yeah, there is a bookstorewith the.
Same name, so that's kind of fun.

(01:03:10):
All right, Dominique, it'sbeen great talking to you.
Yes.
Lovely chatting.
All right, see you later.
See you.
Dominique isn't just adesigner creating beautiful book
covers.
She's amplifying voices andbuilding a community.
And most importantly, she'sreshaping an industry that's historically
left out.
Designers of color.

(01:03:31):
If you're ready to be a partof something, bigger and actually
make some noise like Dominique.
Head tothestandoutcreatives.com and let's
chat.
Let's take that amazing ideaof yours and turn it into something
that makes an impact.
The world is waiting for thechange only you can create.
Let's make it happen together.