17: Finish Your Book Without Burning Out with Cynthia Morris

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
And one of the things I'velearned is that we all have that.
And my clients are very smart,highly accomplished people who've
done all kinds of things.
And it has nothing to do withhow smart you are or how accomplished
you are.
When you're creating somethingthat's really of your soul and like
something that's deeplymeaningful to you, you're going to

(00:22):
go through stuff.
It took me a while to learnthat they struggle, too.
We all have the same struggles.
And that's the benefit ofbeing a coach for so long, is I hope
that I'm able to normalize itfor people.
No, this isn't you.
This is not because you're notcapable or inept or not smart enough
or not a good writer.

(00:43):
This is the job.
We all face it, and it's okay.
Welcome to the StandoutCreatives, where making money and
creating meaningful work gohand in hand.
You're already passionateabout what you create.
Now let's turn that passioninto a standout business.
Marketing your work doesn'thave to be overwhelming.
It can actually amplify your creativity.

(01:03):
I'm your guide, Kevin Chung,and this podcast is your roadmap
to creative business success.
I'll show you how to turn yourunique talents into a business that
truly represents who you are.
Let's get started with the keyto finishing your book wasn't about
grinding it out, but aboutlearning to trust the messy process.
Cynthia Morris has spent over20 years helping writers navigate

(01:26):
the creative journey.
She's a writer, artist, andcertified coach who understands the
real work of creativity.
She knows the ups and downs,the stuck moments, and the tiny wins
that keep you going.
As the founder of OriginalImpulse, she's guided countless creatives
from stuck to started, fromidea to page, and from doubt to confidence.

(01:49):
In this episode, we'rebreaking down the real secrets of
creative work.
How to embrace imperfection,rebuild after rejection, and stay
committed with support thatactually works.
If you've been stuck or secondguessing your voice, this one's for
you.
Now, onto the episode.
Welcome to another episode ofthe Standout Creatives.

(02:11):
Today I have on Cynthia Morris.
Cynthia is a writer, artist,and certified coach who has spent
over two decades helpingcreatives finally get their ideas
out of their heads and ontothe page.
As the founder of OriginalImpulse, she's guided countless writers
to focus, follow through, andfinish their books without overwhelming
themselves.
Cynthia knows firsthand howeasy it is to get stuck, second guess

(02:35):
yourself, and let life get inthe way.
That's why she's made it hermission to help creatives write smarter,
faster, and with more joy.
Whether through coachingretreats in Paris, in Lisbon, or
her numerous books, Cynthia ishere to help you stop waiting and
start writing.
And she's also a guest on myformer podcast, Cracking Creativity.
So welcome back, Cynthia.

(02:56):
Can you tell us, for those whohaven't listened to that episode,
some more about yourself andhow you got into the work you're
doing?
Thanks, Kevin.
Thanks for having me back.
It's always fun to talk to you.
So I, since I was a kid, Iwanted to be a writer.
Now I kind of think that myentire life is all about books.

(03:17):
It's not 100% about books, butI'm either reading books, writing
a book, helping people write abook, or going to the library to
bring home a stack of books,just like I did when I was a little
girl.
Although the books are muchthicker now, so I don't get through
as many.
But I also, I'm one of thosepeople who have a lot of interests,
and one of the things they saywhen you're starting a business is

(03:39):
that just doesn't work.
You have to focus.
You have to have only one offer.
And I've always struggled with that.
And finally just kind of gaveup on thinking that I have to only
be one thing.
And I bring that up becauseI'm also an artist.
I got a D in high school.
Art.
I know.
It's so funny.

(04:00):
Isn't that awful?
Of course.
So then that's decades ofthinking I'm not an artist.
I better just stay in the laneof writing.
But I took up drawing as a wayto meditate and just relax.
And it was really a greathobby or habit to.
To really calm myself,especially with groups or just hanging

(04:23):
around.
It was easier to havesomething to doodle with than just
sit there.
And so after I published mynovel in 2012, I really dedicated
myself more to my art andbecoming more of a watercolor illustrator
and painter.
And so I kind of considermyself a writer and an artist and

(04:45):
really enjoy seeing how thosethings come together.
Awesome.
What kind of books did youlike to read as a kid?
I liked reading books thatfeatured girls.
I read the Little House on thePrairie books.
I'm just listening to a greatpodcast called wilder by Glynis McNicoll,

(05:10):
breaking that whole story downabout how they were written and the
whole scandal and then some ofthe very dubious kind of racist things
that are in the book.
So that's really interestingto go back to something that had
a big impact on me as a girl.
And break it down as an adult.
Another series that I reallyloved was this author named Madeleine

(05:33):
Lengel who wrote Wrinkle inTime and then A Swiftly Tilting Planet.
And when did you read those?
I've read A Wrinkle in Time along time ago, but I don't think
I understood it when I wasreading it because I was like a kid
so totally.
It's, it's.
I thought the.
Right.
I looked at it just yesterdayand the, because I have the, the

(05:54):
copies of those books that Ihad when I was a child.
It's crazy.
They're really well read.
The Wrinkle in Time.
A Wrinkle in Time is kind ofsci fi, which is not at all what
I read, but it was againfeaturing a girl character.
I really liked that when I wasa child, just to have those kind
of role models of girls whoare doing interesting things.

(06:16):
And then the last series ofbooks that I remember reading was
the lion, the Witch and theWardrobe series.
And it's interesting to me howeven today books and series are super
popular.
And it makes sense.
Once you get into a character,you want to know more, you want to
keep going.
And it's a great thing forauthors, it's a great thing for readers.

(06:38):
And I know that now it's booksand series, that fiction that really
sell a lot.
And so I think that's kind ofan interesting trend that has endured.
One interesting thing I heardrecently was that books, certain
books only became popularbecause you only had a small number
of books throughout time.

(07:00):
Up until that point in time,until the Internet.
Right.
Not everyone could write andpublish a book.
So as soon as the Internetcame, it became much harder to get
noticed.
So I think if your, your bookis very good, it'll stand the test
of time.
But even if those books werewritten today, they may not get noticed
because it's so hard.
Right?
Yeah, that is true.

(07:21):
Just how, how technology haschanged the way we live and read.
Just even thinking about whenI was a girl, how did I find out
about books?
It was just going to thelibrary and looking.
I spent a lot of time at thelibrary, which makes me happy.
I still do.
So.
So yeah, I think being able todiscover more books and different
kinds of books and books thatare related to the kind that you

(07:43):
like now, that's way better.
There is obviously just somuch, so many more books.
Not enough time even.
I have a huge stack.
I can't, I don't know when I'mgonna read them all.
I don't think we'll ever readall of the books.
I have so many books unread.
But the, the fact that youhave a choice to choose what you
want to read is a good luxury,but also, you know, a difficult choice.

(08:07):
What, how do you determinewhat to read at this point in time?
Well, I'm publishing my secondnovel this summer, so I've been reading
similar titles just tounderstand what else is out there
that's similar to my book.
And then I'm in two book groups.
One that I started 20 yearsago and we read literary fiction

(08:30):
and we get together once ayear and choose all of the books
for the year for like 15 months.
We just choose pretty far out.
And then my editor, KristenTate, just started a book group called
Novel Study.
And she's super smart andreally knows how to break down what's
going on in a novel.

(08:50):
And she just started a bookgroup on Patreon.
And so I'm, I'm reading a bookfor that, for reading best sellers,
which is not something Iusually do read right off the bestseller
list.
Do you think it helps to havea group of people to also read with
or do you like choosing your own?
Sometimes both.
Yeah.

(09:10):
That's a great question.
Because I get frustrated withmy book group.
We meet every six weeks sothere's time to read two or three
other books as well.
But I do get.
There are a lot of books in mybook group last year that I just
didn't like, didn't want toread and so I didn't read as many
and I read my own.
But yeah, it's a balance.

(09:31):
And it's a balance.
I'm.
I wake up like early, like waytoo early, like 3:30.
And so I start.
Oh, wow.
I know.
I was like, do not get up.
But I started reading at that time.
I'm like, well, here we are.
Let's.
I've got a new little booklight, which is great.
That attaches to the book.

(09:52):
So.
Yeah.
And I think I should also dothings like not watch, know movies
at night and read instead.
But really looking to get morereading into my life.
Yeah.
Do you think it's important tobe a voracious reader if you're going
to be a writer?
Well, a lot of people say thatis true and I wouldn't prescribe

(10:16):
that because some people don'tread, which I don't understand.
But that's fine.
Not everybody to read.
But I think I know I can justspeak for myself.
I've.
I know I've learned a lot,especially when I'M in the middle
of writing something, and I'mtrying to learn how to do something,

(10:37):
and it's really.
I get the concept, but I havea hard time implementing it.
And then when I see somebodydoing it, then I'm like, oh, there's
how they did it.
That's what they've done.
And with my clients, andthey're like, I'm trying to write
like this.
I want my book to be like this.
Then I'll say, break it down.
Go to that first chapter.
Go to that first page.

(10:58):
What are they doing?
How did you start feelingabout the character?
And when did you start caring?
And what they say in thatsentence to make you care?
So I think reading is a greatway to learn how to be a writer.
I just can't help myself.
I've always been a big reader,and I.
I think that's probably why Iwanted to be a writer when I was

(11:20):
a kid.
I don't know why I would wantto be otherwise, why I would know,
like, to be a writer.
It's not.
It's not for making money,that's for sure.
It's.
It's definitely like.
I mean, you can make money,obviously, but it's not where you
would go automatically if youthought, I want to make money, I
want to be a writer.
Right.

(11:41):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think the craft is somethingthat is just naturally difficult
because, I mean, it's stilllike a relatively new phenomenon,
right?
Relative to the history ofhumans and stuff, writing is still
kind of new.
I think that's.

(12:01):
That's an interesting way tothink about it.
I haven't thought about itthat way.
The way I think about writingin terms of the craft is it's very
slow.
It's super slow.
Even if the mechanism ofgetting our words out on, you know,
with a keyboard, that's fast,or getting it out in the world, that
could be like.

(12:21):
It's out there.
The act of writing somethingtakes a long time, and a lot of my
clients are really frustratedby that.
Maybe AI will change that andspeed it up.
But the other thing is thatit's incredibly humbling.
It's not.
It's not easy to write well,and it takes a lot of practice and
humility and vulnerability.

(12:43):
I mean, I, you know, justspeak for myself.
It.
I had to write a lot of badstuff before coming out with something
that I feel is just good enough.
Yeah.
I think everyone that writesknows that even if you're a really
good writer, your first draftis still going to be pretty terrible

(13:05):
until you've like, looked atit, examine it.
Does it make sense?
You know, it's.
No matter how long you've beenwriting, I think it's still just
a process that takes a whilebecause you.
You have to kind of craft itin a way that is most effective.
Yeah.
And even what am I trying to say?
Is just a big question thattakes a while to answer.

(13:25):
And what am I trying to say inthis book?
I heard an interview withCharles Duhigg a couple weeks ago
who wrote.
Oh, gosh, the title's escaping Me.
Something about the habit.
The Power of Habit.
Yeah.
One of the habit books.
Yeah.
Escaping me too.
Now.
It's not the Power of Habit.
It'll come to us.

(13:46):
He said it takes him a yearactively working on the book to just
figure out what the book is about.
And my clients get reallyfrustrated when it's.
They don't have it figured outin a couple of months.
And I'm like, this is.
This is.
This takes a lot of excavatingand real, like, deep and wide thinking.

(14:08):
And so, wow, this is a realsales pitch for writing a book, isn't
it?
But the thing is, I feel likeif you.
If you have.
If you have this impulse towrite, you have to follow it.
You have no idea what.
I don't know what it'll be like.
It might be really fast, itmight be easy, but I think if you
have that impulse to write orcreate anything, you have to follow

(14:32):
it, because you don't havethat for a reason.
And as you said, it's notnecessarily you're trying to be some
wealthy from it.
But I also believe that thethings that we create teach us a
lot about ourselves and helpus to grow as people.
And I started out as a coach,a trained coach, and started right

(14:54):
away working with writers andartists and just realized, wow, all
of your stuff will come up.
You really will have to take astand for yourself just to make the
time and then take a stand foryourself and what you believe.
And I think the writing's sohard, Kevin, because I think that
it requires more honesty andvulnerability than most of us are

(15:16):
really interested in showing.
So I.
I see it as a personal growthpath, and that might be just a way
to help me and others acceptthe rigor of it, but I think it's
worth it.
I think when you do yourcreative work and finish something,
you get some kind of insightor payoff or understanding of yourself

(15:40):
and of life.
There's a really good quote.
I don't remember who said it,but the richest place on the earth
is the graveyard.
Because all the good ideasthat people didn't get out there
are all there.
So it's like if you have thatgreat idea, you have to at least
attempt to get it out there.

(16:00):
If not, complete it.
Right.
That's a great quote.
I've never heard that.
And I do think, like you said,at least attempt, because who wants
to just spend all this time wondering?
I don't like it.
I don't like this feeling of,oh, maybe I'll do that someday.
And I know that a lot ofpeople do like that because you can

(16:23):
live with a sense ofpossibility, and we love possibility.
But it doesn't feel good to me.
It doesn't.
Doesn't.
Feels like if I'm hanging onto some idea for too long, it just
starts to feel like I'm not inintegrity with myself.
You can always replace thepossibility of that first one with
another one.
Right.
It's not like you're.
You're wasting your possibilities.

(16:44):
There's an endless number of possibilities.
That is true.
That is so true.
Can you talk a little bitabout your first novel?
Like the.
How it came about and theprocess of writing that?
Sure.
It's called Chasing Sylvia Beach.
And when I was a booksellerhere in Denver, I came across a book

(17:06):
called Sylvia beach and theLost Generation by Noel Riley Fitch.
And I've always been obsessedwith Paris.
I have a highly useful Frenchdegree and always wanted to, you
know how people get obsessedwith Paris in the 20s and 30s.
And, well, that was me.
And so when I read this bookabout Sylvia Beach, I was like, wow,
this person, she.
She was an American who movedto Paris in 1919 and opened a bookshop,

(17:31):
which is not really whatpeople were doing at that time.
And I just thought she was so cool.
And she.
She did a lot of things andhad a lot of.
Had a great life.
One of the things she did wasshe published James Joyce's Ulysses,
which still is the number onenovel, the modern novel, on all the
lists of, you know, 100 best novels.

(17:53):
No one would publish itbecause it was just bawdy and licentious,
and people just were like, no.
And she saw his genius andpublished it anyway.
So that's one of the thingsthat she did.
And I just thought, I want her life.
I want to be.
I want to live in Paris andhave all these great literary friendships.
And so I did a lot of things.
I did performance pieces about her.

(18:17):
I tried to write a screenplay.
I finally landed on writing anovel, and it took 12 years, and
it turned out to be acompletely different thing than I
thought.
I was fortunate to apply forand get a grant from Denver's Alliance

(18:38):
Francaise, and I used thatmoney to go to Princeton and spend
a week in her archives, whichwas great.
I thought, oh, I'm gonnareally find something that I haven't
found in the books.
Like, there's going to besomething that will reveal, you know,
her vulnerability and herbeing more than just some great Persona
that everybody loved that I didn't.

(19:00):
I found nothing.
I found nothing new.
So when I came home from that,I kind of had to reset and restart
and really break free andfictionalize it.
It became a time travel novel.
It became a novel about acharacter who was in this time going
back in time and meeting her.
Never wanted to write a timetravel book, but.

(19:21):
But that's.
That's how it happened.
But took 12 years.
It was a.
17 drafts and a lot of reallybad writing and a lot of really brutal
feedback from readers tofinally achieve a book that I feel
is a good book.
I don't know if it's a great book.

(19:42):
It doesn't matter.
I think it's good.
And I.
I'm really glad I did it.
I.
The only thing that kept megoing was being a coach, being a
writer's coach.
So a.
That gave, you know, I had theskills to keep showing up and keep
being accountable, but I alsohad to finish it.
If I didn't, then I would haveto quit my job.

(20:05):
You know, Like, I couldn't.
Can't, like, stand here andsay, oh, you can finish it.
Oh, I didn't.
I never finished mine.
That just would get me firedby myself.
So that was fierceaccountability, and I'm really glad
I did it.
It was quite a triumph for meonce I finally got it out.

(20:26):
I think that's something thatwe all need is some sort of accountability,
because obviously we can say,I can do it whenever if we don't
have that element.
And I think we all need atleast something that pushes us a
little bit further than we'recomfortable with or willing to.
To do.
Because otherwise there'salways the possibility of waiting

(20:49):
and it may never come.
Yeah, and that word that youused, willing.
I always.
Here's another book idea thatI want to write a book called Willing,
because I think that's reallythe biggest thing that we need is
a willingness to spend a lotof time being uncomfortable, not

(21:10):
unsafe, not, like, in dangerof our lives, but, like, oh, I really
am not used to being this incompetent.
I'm really not used to beingthis vulnerable.
I really don't want to be thishonest when you get the feedback.
And I, I'm, on this last novelthat I worked on, hired an editor
and she, she, she was great.

(21:32):
She sent me the feedback.
It was a 26 page editorial letter.
She made a spreadsheet of the scenes.
There were 500 comments on the manuscript.
And Kevin, that became kind ofmy bible for the year.
For a year I worked off thateditorial letter, like deep.
Going into learning, trying,trying again and sending her different

(21:54):
drafts.
And even, you know, half ayear ago, she's like, nope.
Anyway, just.
So, yeah.
Being willing to not be good,being willing to take feedback, being
willing to stay with it whenyou lose faith, like, that's.

(22:17):
There's a lot of things that Ithink are.
Our general set point isagainst all of that discomfort.
So being able to be thatuncomfortable, it's part of the job.
There's some.
Something interesting I'mdoing this year.
I'm part of a group for.

(22:38):
The goal is to get 100rejections over the year.
So you're just practicing yourwillingness to make yourself uncomfortable
and get rejected for whateveryou're asking for.
I love that I did a group like that.
Who's leading that group?
Um, someone I'm in a podcastgroup with called.

(22:59):
Her name is Becky Mellencamp.
Okay.
It's not the same person.
That was the greatest thing,one of the greatest things I did.
You.
Are you learning a ton?
Is it really helping you?
I'm.
It just started in January, so I'm.
I'm figuring out who I'm goingto talk to, when I'm going to ask
them for or ask them to helpwith or whatever the pitch may be.

(23:20):
And.
And just being comfortablewith people saying no.
But the surprising thing iswhen people say yes and you're like,
oh, I was trying to get a no,but some people say yes.
Right.
That's so great.
I love that you're doing that.
I loved doing that.
It was hard.
It was so helpful.
But I got up some really coolbrand ambassadorships and sponsorships

(23:41):
and things that I would neverhave had the nerve to ask for.
I can't wait to see how itgoes for you.
I'm really excited to see whathappens and what develops in you
as a result of just asking.
Yeah.
And there's a book.
I don't know if you read it,but it's by Jia Jing.
I think it's rejection proofor something like that.
And he's the one that.

(24:01):
That made this really popular.
He.
Okay.
He wrote a book based on his first.
Well, his investor pitchfailed, and he's like, oh, I need
to figure out what I can do tomake myself more comfortable with
the idea of rejection.
So he started this challengefor himself.
100 days of rejection.

(24:23):
He did it in a much smallertimeline, so that's a lot.
And one of his ones that wentviral was going to a Krispy Kreme
and asking them to make thedonuts in the shape of the Olympic
rings.
I heard that.
Yes.
He did a TED Talk, right?
Yes, I've seen that.

(24:44):
Yeah.
I knew that name was familiar.
It's so cool.
This is going to be so great.
Is it hard for you to ask forhelp and ask for things?
The things that I've beenasking for are mostly interviews,
so it's not that difficult.
I think the more challengingparts would be like asking somebody
to work with me as a client orto sponsor or something involving

(25:07):
money, because those areobviously much more deeper commitments
than like, an interview orsomething along those lines.
Right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, yeah, I think there's.
We all have our discomfort level.
I have a hard time asking,really, for anything.

(25:28):
And it's required to actually survive.
Right.
And to thrive like you have.
You can't do anything alone.
You have to have other people, so.
Well, I'm super excited for you.
I really can't wait to hearhow it goes.
Thanks.
I know it changed my life todo that.
It was big.
Yeah.
Can you talk about some of theones, Some of the things you attempted

(25:48):
or got rejected for, and someof the things like this.
I guess the brandambassadorship that you actually
got.
This was 10 years ago now.
This time just zooms by, butone of the brand ambassadorships

(26:09):
was Hahnemule, which is aGerman paper company.
And they actually reached outto me and said, would you like to
try some of our papers?
And I said, sure.
And then their papers are great.
Super great quality.
And then I said, I lead thesecreativity workshops in Paris.
Would you supply notebooks?
And they did.

(26:30):
That was great.
And then I was partnered withHaiku Bags, which is a really great
company out of Seattle.
They make super great bags.
Started as a diaper bag, likea fashionable, fashionable diaper
bag company.
And then that woman sold it.
And Haiku, it's all made outof recycled materials.

(26:53):
They're super stylish and justa great company in all ways.
And they provided materialsfor my.
My workshops in Paris, too.
So that was great.
Cobb Hill Shoes.
Is a super great shoe brandthat's now under Rockport Shoes.
I love their shoes.

(27:14):
Just like the mostcomfortable, stylish kind of dress
shoes.
I reached out to them andthey, they said yes.
So I wore their shoes for along time.
It's just, it's.
Once you get into it, it'sjust really starts to be fun to ask
because you, you start torealize how limited we are and how

(27:37):
much more is possible.
And like, you mentioned Gia,like, even the no's teach you something.
Even the nose, they might justfire you up more like, oh, yeah,
okay, well, I'll go somewhereelse and they'll say yes.
It just, I think it ignites acertain kind of energy that's engaging
and stimulating to do that.

(28:00):
Yeah.
It's not really something thatwe're taught to do.
I think is one of the biggest issues.
Like you're told, just dowhatever you're told to do and don't
like, ruffle any feathers.
Right.
But in essence, you're justtrying to make a connection with
somebody and figure out howthis connection is beneficial to
both sides.

(28:20):
It's not.
You're not asking them becauseyou just want money.
You're asking because you likethem, probably first of all, or else
you wouldn't be asking them.
And then second of all, sinceyou're part of the people who does
like it, you can be anambassador for them.
Right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's easy when you love abrand or a product or something to

(28:42):
just want everybody to know.
I just want everybody to knowabout the things I love.
I was going to say somethingand it escaped me.
Oh, you were talking about,you know, what it takes to ask.
I think you really have to.
You're really taking a standfor yourself, aren't you?
You have to believe inyourself to get somebody else to

(29:04):
believe in you and take a.
Take a stand for you, make astake with you.
That's the thing.
I think that is where we growso much.
Because you're like, well, Idon't know, who am I?
It's like, oh, I have to writeit down in words.
I have to communicate this.
I have to do a pitch deck.
I have to actually communicatemy value of what I'm doing and offering.

(29:26):
I think that's super valuableno matter what happens.
Yeah.
I think the best thing you cando is have confidence in yourself
if.
If you know that you're theright fit or person for anything.
Right.
You have to know that andbelieve it.
Or else when you do talk topeople, you're like, I don't know
what to say.

(29:47):
Yeah, yeah, it's true.
Can you talk about why youwanted to write a second novel?
Your first one took so manyyears to complete.
What was the drive to do it?
Another one.
More pain.
No, I'm just kidding.

(30:09):
You know, after I finishedthat novel, I was like, I, I, I'm
done.
And as I mentioned, I wentinto making art because it was a
historical fiction.
And I was like, I've spentenough time in, in the sepia toned
past.
I want to be in the full color present.
And I also, I kind of adoptedthis belief that I was not a novelist,

(30:35):
that that was not what I washere to do.
It wasn't a talent or a giftand I should just do other things.
So I did other things.
And I'd had this experiencewhere I moved to Europe and I was
going to Italy and I ended upin, in Portugal.
I ended up in Lisbon.

(30:55):
I fell in love with this guyand had this great experience with
him.
And then it ended, as thingsdo, and I was always like, that is
going to be a great romance novel.
That's a great story.
And so it went on the list.
You know, you have a list ofthings you want to write someday,
like the book Willing, that'son there.
And this book was on there.

(31:16):
And in 2014, I did NaNoWriMo,and I just got it all out as a memoir,
kind of just, just get thestory out.
And then after it was over, Iwas like, nope, put it in the drawer.
Too painful.
Don't want to revisit it.
And then fast forward to acouple of years ago, I did another

(31:41):
NaNoWriMo about an experienceI had.
A NaNoWriMo, in case listenersdon't know, is National Novel Writing
Month.
It's in the month of November,and the task is to write 50,000 words
or more on a new novel in the30 days, 30 days of November.

(32:02):
And I really like that as away to just concentrate your efforts
and say, I don't really wantto spend years and decades on this.
Get in there and do it.
So I'd had this experienceright before that.
It was very disrupting to me.
And I was like, what happened?
What is that about?
I was like, just, just sitdown and write it out every day.

(32:24):
Now, I know that there's athing called expressive writing,
which is more of a therapeuticjournaling process that helps, helps
us kind of organize thingsthat happen that are traumatic.
So I think I was doing that.
But after that month, I waslike, well, that's a stupid book
that's not really going anywhere.
But what about this Portugal story?
So I took it up, and I wassomehow better prepared to write

(32:49):
it emotionally.
And I did not want to write a memoir.
I really wanted tofictionalize it and give myself a
better ending, which I thinkis also a therapeutic process.
You're like, well, write adifferent ending.
Right.
So that was super fun to writethings for my character that.
That I would love to have.

(33:12):
And I found myself reallyenjoying it.
And I learned so much, Kevin.
I learned so much in two years.
It took two years to writethat book.
So much about storytelling andwriting, and that was super exciting
to me.
I've been writing for 30 yearsand that I can continue to learn
and then also to grow.

(33:34):
I feel like that was really.
Of all the therapeutic thingsI've done, that was the most therapeutic.
I.
Writing about myself as acharacter and kind of getting outside
myself and seeing all the.
All the things that.
That I had done wrong or, youknow, that you read and you're like,
why is she doing that?

(33:54):
I'm like, oh, because she's human.
I'm human.
And I think when I became acoach, there was some part of me
that thought that I had betterbe better.
And I don't know if I.
Some part of me that thought Ishould have it all figured out if
I was going to be helpingpeople, when in reality, I, you know,

(34:16):
I'm the same as anybody else.
I'm human.
And so that.
Just that, like, beingnormalizing myself, seeing the things
I'd done from the outside andseeing that those were actually the
good things that make for agood story.
Story was so profoundly healing.

(34:38):
So I.
That's.
You know when I say at the endof every book, you get something
that you.
You didn't have when you started.
And I would say that's it.
It was just like, oh, I'm.
I'm a person, too.
Making really bad emotionaldecisions and learning from them.
Yeah.
I think an interesting thingthat you said was that you're still

(35:01):
learning, and I think thatapplies to everyone all the time,
because no one knows everything.
So even if you're veryspecific, like you're a writing coach,
but very specific into writinginstruction, all that kind of stuff,
you still don't.
There's so much that you don't know.
Right.
You can never learn everythingthere is to know about anything.

(35:23):
Yeah.
Thank goodness.
I don't want to knoweverything, because how boring would
that be?
And learning is one of my topvalues, so I really get A lot from.
I don't know if it's adopamine hit or what, from learning
from having those insights or seeing.
You know, what really alsomotivates me is seeing my.

(35:45):
Seeing improvement, seeing mywriting get better.
So each draft is better thanthe last.
And that.
That.
That's really satisfying.
That helped me through thelong haul of finishing a book.
Yeah.
I think a lot of writers thinkthey're bad writers because they.
They write the first thing andthey're like, oh, this is not good

(36:06):
at all.
But they.
They didn't go back to refine it.
Obviously.
It takes, like, even, like,one page can take, I don't know,
four or five revisions untilyou get it the way you want it to.
Right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I don't really think ofmyself as a patient person, but that
is kind of required, kind ofpatience going along with humility

(36:29):
to do several drafts and tofall in love with.
I really love the editingprocess and the wordsmithing.
A lot of people don't.
They really just like the flow.
Like, flow and getting mywords out, which.
That's a different kind ofgood feeling.
But being able to make asentence better.
Even the last time I wentthrough my manuscript and I was just

(36:51):
like, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh.
So many ways to make it better.
It's at the copy editor now,so I look forward to seeing how she
makes it better.
Like her thoughts about how tomake it better.
Yeah, Writing a book is quitethe thing.
I really like having a bigproject that's got a specific goal

(37:17):
and an end date, and that is just.
Just a little bit beyond me.
And also that requires that Iget a lot of help.
Yeah.
I don't think we can doanything alone, and if we do, it's
usually not as good as if wewere to get help.
Because you.
You're so deep into your workthat you don't see its faults.

(37:39):
Right.
You're.
You're just kind of blind towhatever can be improved.
That's true.
Yeah.
For sure.
How.
How was the progress from yourfirst novel to your second one?
Did you notice a starkdifference between the.

(38:00):
The process of how youcompleted each?
I know one, the one took 13years and one took two, but I don't
know.
That's a good question.
I don't know because I feellike I really was almost, like, starting

(38:23):
from scratch and understandingwhat it is that really makes a book
good.
It's really not the plot, it'sthe character arc.
And we think the book is aboutwhat happens, but it's like, it's
about why we care, becausewe're not going to keep reading if
we don't care.
And that's about the character arc.
And so that's like this wholeother emotional process that I wasn't

(38:44):
even aware of in my firstnovel in that way.
But, you know, after Ifinished that first novel, I thought
I kept kind of saying thisthing to myself, like, oh, yeah,
that, that novel that took apiece out of me.
I really, you know, took apiece out of me.
And after saying that for somany years, I was like, my little

(39:05):
coach voice was like, whatpiece exactly did it take?
And it was like, you know, Ikind of didn't really think I was
a good writer.
I've been writing for a longtime, and I've written a lot of things,
and I've written other booksfor my work.
I mean, I'm just writing allthe time, it feels like.
But I didn't really have anybelief or illusion or thought that

(39:28):
I was a good writer.
And so this novel that Iwrote, I started feeling, I think
it was year two, because thefirst year was really hard.
It was a lot of emotional workand a lot of churn.
And the second year, itstarted to become fun.
And it's also when I startedto see, like, I can write a scene.

(39:48):
I know how to write a scene.
I, oh, this is actually good.
Which I don't know about you,but for me, it's really rare to think
anything that I've done isgood because we always see more that
can be better or see otherpeople's work that's way better.
So to just feel a sense ofthis is good, that was new.

(40:12):
So I think I, I, I would notmake anything up about myself one
way or the other, that I'm nota novelist, or I will never write
another novel.
But I'm really glad that Iwrote a second novel because it's
way more fun.
It's really creative.
And what I discovered was thatit really brought so many parts of

(40:40):
me to play into play.
I really love human psychology.
I really love relationships.
I love story.
I love description.
So bringing all those thingstogether and learning how to navigate
that more easily, I was like,oh, maybe I am a novelist.

(41:02):
This really.
And being in emotionality, I'ma very emotional person, and there's
not really a lot of room forthat in life, like, keep it, you
know, contained.
But in a novel, like, it's allabout the emotion.
How do you bring thosefeelings to life?
So that was super fun.
To kind of reclaim a sense ofbeing a writer in a way that I felt

(41:28):
I had let go of.
Yeah.
I remember after our firstinterview, you said, oh, I don't
know if I would ever do that again.
Which is so funny because you,you can never say that you're never
going to do something.
You don't know what's going tocome up, how your life is going to
change, what's going to impact you.
And that's why I want to do it.
And that's why I want peopleto, to do whatever they want to create.

(41:50):
You never know what's going tohappen and.
But it's.
Nothing's going to happen ifyou don't ever put anything out there.
So I'm pretty excited aboutthis novel.
It's called Her Lisbon Colorsand it's coming out in early June.
Oh, nice.
What are you doing to.
To promote it, if you are?

(42:12):
Great question.
I just met with my marketingcoach this morning and there will
be, you know, the usualInstagram stories, sharing on social
media.
I gave my character a reallygreat budding career as a food illustrator.

(42:32):
So I will be doing some of theillustrations that a character does
in the book.
Yeah, I was like midwaythrough when I realized, wait, look,
I'm gonna get to do these illustrations.
It'll be a fun way to promotethe book.
I'll be in Lisbon in April, soI'll probably be doing some videos
from there and reaching out tobookstores and local people there

(42:55):
to help bring the book out andpromote it.
I don't know.
I have like this huge list ofideas and none of them are coming
to mind right now.
Too many ideas.
Right.
Book groups.
I'm launching a bookshop on mywebsite and bringing all of my titles

(43:15):
to my website for direct sales.
So I'll be doing that andselling books in bundles, book group
bundles, podcast interviews,like this.
All of the things I, I've gota three to five year marketing plan,
so I want to stay with it fora while.
Yeah.
So it's never ending once yourbook is out.

(43:38):
Doesn't mean your, yourmarketing is done.
It's just like the beginningreally, other than your, you know,
like pre orders and all thatstuff to hide the book.
It's like if you want peopleto find it, you still have to continue
to like tell people about itor else they're not going to find
it.
Yeah.
It's like my own hundredrejections program.

(44:00):
Yeah.
So who can you ask or what canyou do to see if you get the yes,
you don't know.
Go for the no.
But you might be surprised.
It's so hard.
I'm going to take you for inspiration.
I'm going to think about the100 rejections thing because I think
what's so great about thatidea is that we think we won't survive

(44:26):
a no and so we don't do it.
And even asking my friends forstuff, asking my friends to read
it or promote it, that'sreally hard.
It's like they love you.
They.
They'll do whatever they canto help.
If you can't ask them, who canyou ask?
But there's a real.
There's a real.
So this is where I will begrowing this year, is getting over

(44:50):
this disinclination to ask for help.
And I love helping people.
When people reach out to me, Ilove helping.
I.
I found that when I'm helpingsomebody or when somebody's helping
me, I feel more connected tothem, to life.

(45:11):
And.
And so it's like, well, whodoesn't want more of that?
I want to be more connected.
So.
So I.
You know, it's just anotherway to grow is promoting something,
putting it out there,believing in it, believing in the
themes.
I think of books asconversation leaders.
So right now I'm working onwhat are the things that I want to

(45:32):
talk about that are in the book.
And there's a lot.
And there's some things thatare complex, like living in another
country.
I think it's very big topic now.
People who are forced to leavehome, people trying to leave home,
trying to make it in an.
Another.
In another land for whatever reason.
It is hard.

(45:52):
So hard.
So I'd love to talk about allof that and things like what makes
somebody an immigrant versusan expat and how do we think about
people who are going from oneplace to another for whatever reason
and where, like how the easeof being able to go live somewhere
else.
So it's a lot of.

(46:13):
There's a lot in that topic alone.
Yeah.
I mean, it's a very timelytopic right now, I think, which is
unfortunate.
But, you know, if it helpssome people deal with it, I think
your book is a great avenue toexplore ideas and, you know, the

(46:33):
human condition.
Because I think it's stillgoing to be universal no matter when
people read this.
Right.
People are always going to bemoving somewhere.
Yeah.
And I think more and more theworld is a place where people are
moving and all the time.
And it's not so much like,this is where I'm from, this is where

(46:56):
I'm staying.
This is where I always will be.
And that's the way it should be.
People are scattering andmoving for a lot of really bad reasons.
And.
And then I'm just on the wholescale, the whole spectrum of because
they want to or becausethey're forced to, they've been displaced.
So I just think that's justthe way of the world now and trying

(47:18):
to make it.
Otherwise, it just doesn't.
It's like trying to stop a river.
I do love the idea of youexploring different ways of promotion,
because a lot of people willget stuck on.
This is the plot of the book,and here's what kind of happens.
But you're looking at theillustrations of the character in
the book and, you know, thethemes of the book that you can be

(47:40):
talked separately aboutwithout necessarily needing to talk
about the book.
And I think that's one of thebest ways to get people engaged and
interested in the idea is whenyou talk about universal things versus,
you know, the specifics ofyour particular book.
Right.
Yeah.
And.
And why I wrote it, why itmatters to me.

(48:02):
I.
I cannot find this.
I think it was a podcast, butit was about pitching, and it was
so helpful.
It was so informative.
They.
They said, I really.
I've been looking for it andI've not been able to rediscover
it, but they said that whenyou're pitching something, people
want to know why you care.
Why.
Why are you into this thing?

(48:23):
Why does this matter to you?
And they said, don't bore themwith the details.
Nobody wants to know the details.
They just want to catch windwith your.
Your enthusiasm, and they wantto play a part in that.
So I was working on thatyesterday, just writing, like, why
did I write this?
What did it mean to me to tellthis story?

(48:44):
And also, how can I make it fun?
I'm think even thinking like aweekly dance party, because dancing
is in the book and there's aplaylist for the.
The.
The novel.
So that kind of multimedia,creative approach makes it easier
for me than it certainly won'tbe just like, buy my book.

(49:04):
Buy my book.
Yeah.
I love the.
The joy element because mostpeople, when they think about marketing,
you know, that that's theimmediate reaction, I think, for
most artists until they'verealized that it's not necessarily
that.
It's like, if you want peopleto consume your work, no matter what

(49:28):
genre of creative person youare, the better it is going to be,
because why are you doing it?
It's like you were saying inthe pitch, why are you doing it?
And that's what people areconnecting to.
Yeah.
I mean, is that true for you?
Like, when you see somebodywho's really into something, aren't
you inspired?
You're like, oh, I want toknow more.

(49:49):
Yeah.
If they're infectious withtheir attitude about something, it
makes it much more likely thatI'm going to want to see.
Oh, why are they so interestedin this particular thing?
That's like all fandoms.
That's what you're aiming foras far as, like fictional stuff goes.
It's like you want people tobe passionate about it.
Totally.

(50:10):
Yeah.
Well, we'll see.
We'll see how it goes.
I'm just now, I just got theCOVID the other day and so now I'm
really turning to.
I've had all these ideas for awhile and now I really have to put
it into action.
I just chose the publication date.
June 9, 2025.

(50:30):
So things are starting tocrystallize and move into.
Move into form.
How many people are involvedin the book making process?
Because I think a lot ofpeople think it's just the author
and then they take it topublisher and then it's done.
But I think there's obviouslya bunch of more people involved in

(50:53):
this process.
Yeah, I have.
I was in Paris last September.
When was it?
I forget, last May.
And two of my friends there,really smart women authors.
I was telling them about mybook and they said, oh, I'll be a
beta reader.

(51:13):
I'll be a beta reader.
And I was like, oh, okay, thatwould be great.
And I'm terrified becauseyou're so smart and like, what are
you?
Like, what if it's terrible?
So beta readers, people whoare ideally, they are the person
that you, you want to read the book.
It's not an editor.

(51:34):
And ideally they're not an author.
They're just a reader wholoves books and would just say, as
a reader, here's what I likedor didn't.
But they, they gave great feedback.
And then I hired an editor andonce I had the first draft, it was
just like a big dump ofeverything that I thought should

(51:56):
go in.
And so that was like a hundredthousand words or more.
And now the book is 85,000 words.
So she really helped refine it.
I let go of a lot.
And then there's copy.
So that's a developmentaleditor who really is helping you
shape the story and know likecreate what the whole the thing is.

(52:17):
Then there's a copy editor andthey're looking at things More on
a grammatical level, just howdoes it flow?
Or you repeat these words a lot.
The sentence is clunky.
So they're working with reallythe craft of the writing.
And then.
Then there's a proofreaderwho's just going through and making

(52:39):
sure there are no typos and noerrors and all of that.
Then I hired a book coverdesigner and I'm work with.
I'm working with the.
Their company's called theBook Designers.
It's two guys, Ian and Alan,and they've designed two of my books,
two paperbacks.
So they do the COVID and theinterior as well.

(53:04):
And then.
Yeah, and then people readingadvanced reading copies to start
reading and start getting theword out there.
Yeah, it's a lot.
Yeah.
It's not.
It's not a solo process at all.
Even though when you think ofan author, you think of, oh, it's
just a person that wrotesomething and they're getting it.
But no, no.

(53:25):
Oh, then my writing group,weekly writing group, just being
with me every week, I have asubstack that I've been publishing
for just a little over a year.
Every week I share what'sgoing on in the process.
So I consider them in on it.
They are really helpful.
They cheer me on.
So I think, like you said,it's not written alone.

(53:47):
And the accountability, wethink about it as accountability,
like, help me do what I sayI'm going to do.
But I think it's also justhaving somebody, you know, groups
of writers or people whounderstand what you're doing and
won't be saying stuff like,well, how, how.
When is it going to be done?

(54:07):
How long is this going to take?
Like, oh, it's going to take along time.
It's just slow.
So.
And my clients too, you know,they help me as well when I'm helping
them.
It helps me to be in thatprocess with them.
And it just feels like ithelps with my integrity that I am
not sitting on the sidelinesin some comfortable place telling

(54:32):
them they should do all thishard work.
I'm doing the hard work alongwith them, and they really appreciate
that.
Can you talk about how youdecided to work with writers specifically
and some of what you helpedthem do?
Yeah, sure.
Well, when I became a coach, I just.

(54:52):
I found an article aboutcoaching in a magazine and I thought,
that is it.
That is so cool.
This was 1999, and.
And then I went and gottraining and I just loved it because
it really fed my belief inhuman potential and my interest in
human potential.
Like, what is possible?
And can we craft a life thatis designed according to who we really

(55:17):
are and what we really want to do?
So, you know, as they say,when you're starting a business,
who are you trying to reach?
What is your focus?
What.
What are you actually helpingpeople with?
And you have to choose a niche.
And I hated that.
I resisted that.
But then I thought, well, I.
I teach writing.

(55:39):
I'm into writing.
I'll start with that.
And artists as well.
And I learned right away thatproducing any creative work is so
much more than just do it orjust schedule it in or just set a
timer.
It's a lot more about who weare and what we believe and how we

(56:04):
think and live.
So as a trained coach, I worka lot with the inner obstacles and
beliefs and also the externalstuff of organizing your ideas, organizing
your time, organizing your materials.
It's a lot of helping peopleorganize because as I mentioned earlier,

(56:28):
the idea of it taking a yearto figure out what the book is, just
organizing your ideas around acentral theme.
Even people who have come tome with a model, that's a very clear
model of what they do, andthey've taught the model, they even
have to go through trying tofigure out how to communicate it

(56:48):
in a book.
So it's a lot of holding spacefor people to articulate their ideas
and then helping them whenthey feel insecure about it.
I just got a message from aclient yesterday, was like, oh, oh.
I was trying.
My family was asking me aboutwhat my book's about, and I just

(57:12):
couldn't get it out.
And I should know by now,shouldn't I?
No, you do know.
But it's really hard tocommunicate that.
And because you're.
You're just like, ah, you'reon the spot.
It's very vulnerable.
It's hugely emotional, andit's really hard to pinpoint it in
one or two.
Two sentences.
So they received homework fromme to write it down.

(57:36):
I said, I know this might seemsimplistic, but just write it down.
Because, you know, write it inone sentence and you might have to
keep it with you, remember?
But yeah, so stuff like that.
So it's really helping peoplewith the inner and the outer obstacles.
And one of the things I'velearned is that we all have that.

(57:56):
And my clients are very smart,highly accomplished people who've
done all kinds of things.
It has nothing to do with howsmart you are or how accomplished
you are when you're creatingsomething that's really of your soul
and like, something that'sdeeply meaningful to you.
You're gonna go through stuff.

(58:17):
It took me a while to learn that.
Oh, they.
They struggle too.
We all have the same struggles.
And that's the benefit ofbeing a coach for so long, is it?
I hope that I'm able tonormalize it for people.
No, this isn't you.
This is not because you're notcapable or inept or not smart enough

(58:38):
or not a good writer.
This is the job.
We all face it, and it's okay.
Yeah.
Yeah.
A lot of it is justempathizing and, you know, just like
you said, communicating that.
It's just the part of the process.
It doesn't matter.

(58:58):
Even people who've writtenmultiple books, the next book is
easier.
But it's also, you know, stilldifficult because you still, like
you said earlier, you have toconsider all the stuff that goes
into it.
And, you know, it's not doneuntil it's done.
It's just like a.
It's just got to be a process.
It is.
It can be tough.

(59:18):
My hope, what I'm trying to dowith my clients and then the things
that I write is help peopleknow themselves.
And I have a program calledyou'd Artist Knows the Way.
And my goal is that you willknow what works for you.
Like, whatever your weird way.
I write at 3 in the morning,or I only can write for 10 minutes
at a time, or I, you know,whatever that.

(59:40):
You know that and you ownthat, versus just trying to adopt
all of this advice aboutproductivity that that's out there
because if you know what worksfor you, like, I know really clearly
when I'm working on something,when I'm done and what.
However long I've been doingit, I'm just.
I start to get hurry, I startto get impatient.

(01:00:01):
I.
I start to not care.
And then that's immediately,like, done.
Just walk away, move on, comeback tomorrow.
Even something like that,knowing when you're done instead
of pushing yourself, stufflike that can, I think, be really
valuable for when you take onthat next book or that other thing.
It's like, well, I know myself better.

(01:00:23):
Even if the work is still achallenge, I know how I navigate
it best.
I just read a reallyinteresting substack article about.
I think it was a woman thatsaid the headline was something like

(01:00:44):
Stephen King is bullshit orsomething like that, or something
like, about his writing process.
And she didn't mean that shedidn't like his books or him as a
person.
She doesn't like the idea thatcreative writing has to be done in
a specific way.
Because he writes every day.
That doesn't mean you as awriter need to follow his model and

(01:01:04):
write every day.
Everybody's process is goingto be different.
And just because famous peopledo it in a certain way doesn't mean
it's going to work for you.
Yeah.
And why do we compareourselves to someone like Stephen
King?
He is a professional writer.
He has been writing, he'swritten, I don't so many books.
And that is his job.

(01:01:25):
That is his day job.
So most of us, it's not ourday job.
Why would we think that wewould be anything like him?
Right.
He did inspire me when I was akid reading his book.
So I was like, that was amoment when I was reading some of
his short stories and Iremember putting the book down and
going to write because I waslike, wow, I'm inspired.

(01:01:46):
I love Stephen King.
I think he's a badass.
Oh yeah, he's amazing.
It's just you don'tnecessarily need to follow his route.
His route is very interesting.
I'm listening to On Writingright now.
Oh.
And so funny.
So good.
He just talks about his pathand you definitely don't want to
follow his path because he was.
Is addicted to drugs and hehad like go into like, you know,

(01:02:07):
this rehab program where hehad to get himself straight.
So obviously that's notsomething I would recommend to people.
Right.
Was that, that, that after hisaccident, after he was run down.
I don't know if I got that far.
This was like when he wasstarting out, he became like an alcoholic
and he was like hiding.

(01:02:27):
Oh, okay.
Cuz he.
His drug use and stuff.
Okay.
Yeah, yeah.
That, that was like the thing.
Right.
The idea of the writer or theartist like that you're kind of this
out of control, like drinkerand smoker and now it's like now
we're out of control with ourelectrolytes and our green juices.
Definitely healthier, I guess.

(01:02:50):
Thank goodness.
Yeah.
Can you talk about some of the.
Or if you can think of asuccess story from somebody that
you've worked with as a coachand how that felt to see that process
come to fruition.
Yeah.

(01:03:10):
I don't know.
I've got some of my clientsbooks here.
Part of Me by Paul Wyman.
It's about the parts system.
Montessori Potential by Paula Prushalak.
This is a great.
These are all great.
Align and Refine by Cindy Lusk.
It's about yoga and meditationfrom somebody who's actual real yogi

(01:03:32):
and then this one, Open toLove by Dr.
Gloria Horsley and Dr.
Frank Powers.
It's about dating when you'reolder, which I was like, the world
needs that.
All of them super smartpeople, super accomplished, and mostly,
you know, mostly work withpeople writing nonfiction.

(01:03:56):
But I wrote a book called theBusy Woman's Guide to Writing a World
Changing Book.
And I believe these books arereally changing the world.
This book, the Montessori Potential.
She's a Montessori, formerMontessori head of school.
And she sees that there's alot of Montessori ish schools out
there that are trying to useMontessori, but they're not actually

(01:04:18):
following the model.
So she wanted to write a bookthat really laid it out for teachers
and parents, educators to like.
Here's where this model comesfrom and here's how it works.
And when you do the actualprocess of what was laid out, you're
going to see great results.
So she's, she, Paula is great.
She, she's been going aroundspeaking about the topic and she

(01:04:42):
started a substack.
My Montessori stories.
Really love working with herand worked with her to write the
book.
One of the things that we haveto do is know who it's for.
And that's something thatpeople will resist.
It's the same as if you'restarting a business or a podcast.

(01:05:02):
Who am I speaking to?
And I remember when she I really.
And we have a hard time.
It's like I've asked them tolike straight strip down naked and
walk around the town square.
It's that they resisted that much.
Everybody, even me, like,well, I don't know.
So she I hope it's okay if Itell this story because it's pretty

(01:05:26):
much pretty common.
Wrote a draft and I read itand I was like, I don't know who
this is all over the place.
Who is it for?
Because it didn't have adirect kind of, here's what I'm trying
to achieve, here's what I'mwanting for you as the reader.
And so she had to go back andredo it and kind of start over with

(01:05:46):
it, really keeping in mind whoshe was trying to affect and how.
And then it just became muchbetter, sharper, much clearer.
And now she knows who it's for.
And then one of the thingsthat this is the way I think about
that, who it's for is thinkabout like if you're an archery,

(01:06:07):
if you're shooting at archery,at a target, there's the middle and
then there's another ring, andthen another ring and other rings.
So if you.
If you think about each ringas a different audience type or a
different kind of person andyou're trying to reach them, you're
not going to reach them all at once.
And you, you're going to bewriting all your zigzagging all over

(01:06:29):
the place.
So you have to identify themain person that you're trying to
reach and write to them.
And then all those otherpeople can benefit from it, too.
But it's not that they're notgoing to read it and enjoy it and
get something from it, butyou're not trying to write for everybody
at once.
It's just really hard to do that.
So, yeah, especially in thebeginnings of things, finding who

(01:06:56):
you're trying to focus onfirst is the most important one.
Because otherwise, like yousaid, it's just like, all over the
place.
I'm trying to talk to you andyou and you, you.
But it's like, I think thebest advice was write to, like, you're
writing to a friend or something.
Like, make sure this person islike a friend and you're trying to
explain this thing to them.
Yeah.
Then it just relaxes you.

(01:07:18):
You are going to have yourmore natural voice.
And it helps with the insecurity.
Because for me, when I thinkabout, as I'm going to promote my
novel and I'm thinking about,what do I want for the reader?
What do I want them to befeeling and thinking, what would
I like to change as a resultof this?

(01:07:39):
And that really makes it lessabout me and less about, is the book
good or am I, you know, am Igoing to be okay?
It's more like, this is what Iwant for you.
And I feel like rather thansaying, oh, you have to identify
your reader, I try to, to letmy clients know that.
Well, my perspective is thatwriting is an act of generosity.

(01:08:03):
You're giving something to a reader.
It's if you're journaling,that's great.
That's not for somebody else.
That's an act of generosity to yourself.
But writing for somebody elseis about writing for them.
And this is for you.
This is what I want for you.
And I'm going to make aneffort to be clear and honest and

(01:08:24):
heartfelt in what I'm sharing.
Yeah, I love the idea of itbeing an act of generosity, because
why else would we do it?
I mean, there's no otherreason to do it.
I mean, I guess as a creativeact, it could work, but why not?
While doing this creative act,have it impact other people in the

(01:08:47):
same way that it's impactingyou, Right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
If you're.
You want to move them.
And I would say that thepeople that I work with want to be
writers because there are alot of people who are writing a book
to.
For their business or for somereason just to kind of get their
information out.
And that's valid, that's fine.

(01:09:09):
But they don't ever want to write.
They don't.
They.
These are the people who mightbe using AI to write their books.
My.
My clients, it's been a dreamof theirs to be a writer and to write
a book for their whole life.
So that's kind of that thingabout if you want to write, you should
follow it because it's therefor a reason.
You might have something tosay that you didn't know, or again,

(01:09:32):
you might change in a way thatyou didn't know you needed.
Yeah.
The other alternative is tohire a ghostwriter and have them
write it for you.
If you don't want to writeyourself, that's a fast track way
to get your idea out therewith your voice and all that.
But, you know, you don't haveto do the technicality of all the

(01:09:53):
writing.
It's super expensive to hire a ghost.
That's like, well, expensiveof time or expensive for money.
So you got one choice or the other.
Right?
It's true.
Yep.
Yeah.
So if you have the money andyou don't want to write, ghost writing
is always a possibility.
I want to just follow up, backup with Paula because we've been

(01:10:15):
working together for a whileand helped her get the book out.
She got a book deal rightaway, which was great.
And.
And then helping her promoteit and helping her launch her substack.
I'm working with her now onher writing and how much more clear
she is, how much more sheknows about who she wants to reach,

(01:10:37):
what she wants to say.
And so the book was just kindof a start.
The book was this realtraining ground for her to refine
her ideas and refine how shewants to communicate.
So now she's just like, she'sgot so much more strength and direction
and clarity as a writer.
It's really satisfying to seesomebody develop like that.

(01:11:00):
Yeah, I think that's one ofthe benefits of a coach.
Not, not to plug yourself orthe idea of a coach, but a coach
helps you, you know, thinkthrough things in a way that progresses
you forward.
It's not like a scam or anything.
It's like a way to makeyourself better in the way that you

(01:11:20):
specifically hire a coach for, right?
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah.
You mentioned earlier, like,we just don't know everything ourselves.
And I really like working withpeople who help me see what I don't.
And I was working with mymarketing coach this morning, and
I was like, here's the.
All the things I want to do.
And she's like, here's what Iwant you to start with.

(01:11:42):
And I was like.
Then I was like, this is why Ihired you, because you're, you know,
I'm not going to just do thesame thing I've been doing.
I would like some different results.
I want to see what else is possible.
So it's exactly that point of,without somebody else, I would just
be doing the same thing.

(01:12:03):
And I kind of like it whenpeople challenge me.
Yeah.
So both for accountability andmotivation and new ideas are all
good reasons to.
To find somebody.
That.
And the.
I think the most importantthing is find somebody who works
for you and not just anybody, Right?
Totally.
Yeah.
It's a real.

(01:12:24):
I think, you know, like, youjust have a feeling.
Communication is a big part of it.
How do they communicate?
Yeah, I'm lucky.
I've had a lot of greatcoaches and a lot of great support
over the years.
I wouldn't be where I amwithout it.
And then I'm sure that your.
Your clients would say thesame thing about you.

(01:12:45):
Right.
Ideally, I hope so.
I.
I do my best.
I'm always learning and reallyseek to be the kind of coach that
I want to have.
I really want to feel thatsomebody's on my side, really rooting
for me, that they're all in onhelping me.
And so that's what I try todeliver for my clients.

(01:13:06):
I really, I.
I love them.
Kevin.
I.
When I started coaching and I.
I was working at thebookstore, and it was great, but
it was also really intense.
Just encountering the publicall the time.
Downtown Denver.
It was just tough.
And when I first startedworking with my clients, the first
client went home after ourintake session, and I just was so.

(01:13:28):
I was like, I love her.
I.
I get to love the people Iwork with, and it.
It just feels great to respectthem and love them and help them
meet their.
Meet their creative goals.
It's really fulfilling.
Yeah.
That's awesome.
Can you talk a little bitabout your.

(01:13:49):
Your creative retreats?
Because I know that's like, aninteresting idea.
A lot of people have ideaslike that, but they don't really
act on them.
So can you talk about how youkind of made it possible?
Really?
Yeah.
I was doing a leadershiptraining program.
It was a coactive leadershipmodel, which is also.

(01:14:10):
The coach training that I haveis coactive.
And so the coactive leadershiptraining was a year for retreats
in California, and it wasabout leading with somebody else,
leading with others, and itwas a great training.
And so in between theretreats, we would have homework
and some of the things weredesigning leadership experiences.

(01:14:35):
And one of the things that Idid with my boyfriend at the time
was hosting dinner partieswhere conversation was the focus
and how do we lead conversations?
And then we had to leadsomething with somebody else.
So I ended up leading two, twoworkshops in London with the two
people from London.

(01:14:56):
I'm going to do one, I'll do two.
I'm kind of crazy like that.
But it was one of my friends,Giga, who she had said, oh, I met
this really cool person atthis conference who lives in the
south of France, and she runsa cooking school and a B and B, and
she's really cool.
And I said, let's.

(01:15:16):
What if we did a workshop there?
So we did.
We called it Journey of the Senses.
And we went to Arles and we had.
My mom was the very firstperson who signed up.
It was so great.
I loved that.
And we had a blast.
And it worked and we actually profited.
And I thought, this is great.

(01:15:38):
So I did another one.
I did a writing one in Parisand it just seemed to work.
And then I wrote a book abouthow to do that.
Leading Tours for Fun and profit.
And I just kept doing it.
And like, we kind of along theway, before we realized what's happening.
What was happening was it wasa way for me to go to France every

(01:16:01):
year and continue, like, myFrench studies and show and share
the things that I loved.
But also it helped pay for meto go to France and do all the research
for my historical novel.
So, you know, like, later Iwas like, oh, that was kind of clever.
But I didn't do it for that reason.

(01:16:23):
I did it.
What I discovered, though, isthat leading the workshops was actually
really hard and challenging.
And I considered it likeleadership boot camps.
So I kept learning.
Like, I kept learning aboutthe French culture and French language.
I also kept learning about howto be a good leader.
And there's just so manythings that I've developed in the

(01:16:48):
20 years that I've been doing it.
But one of the things thatchanged a few years ago was I had
this idea to do a workshop inParis and to invite some friends
to lead it with me.
And that worked really well.
I had no idea how it was goingto work financially.
And then on a walk, it alldownloaded how to do it, and I figured

(01:17:09):
it out and it worked great.
And it became.
It was so much more fun to doit with other people.
Like, way more fun.
Way more fun.
So that's been better doingthat in Paris with others.
And then one of the peoplethat I co lead with is Koja Kona.

(01:17:30):
She's a Dutch artist andsketchbook keeper.
She co founded Sketchbook Skool.
And when I was in Lisbonresearching my novel a couple of
years ago, I was like, lisbonis so great.
I really loved it here andthere's a reason and I should come
back.
Maybe Koja would want to colead a workshop with me.

(01:17:51):
So I texted her, do you wantto do something in Lisbon?
And she said yes.
So we did something last yearand it was even more fun.
It was so much fun, and thefood is great and the city is fabulous
and the people had so much fun.
So that.
That's called Capture the Lisbon.
Wow.
We're doing two this April.
And I think a big part ofmaking them successful is, you know,

(01:18:18):
Kevin, I had no idea.
This is something I learnedover the years because, as you know,
I'm kind of.
I think of myself as acreative kook.
I'm just doing all thiscreative, kooky stuff.
Some people would think that'sflaky, just all the different things
that I've done.
But it turns out I'm actuallyreally good at organizing things
or helping people organizetheir ideas, helping people organize

(01:18:40):
their time, and thenorganizing these programs.
Something that actually is askill that I have.
So being able to do that andthen doing it with somebody else
allows it to be really fun.
And the whole point, thepeople who come on these, it's.
It's usually about filling asketchbook or just more creative

(01:19:04):
play.
The job really requires thatwe are having fun because that was
one year I had a reallyterrible time.
Like, all these terriblethings happened at once when I was
leading.
It was just awful.
And I was like, oh, like myjob really is like kind of set the
space and create all theseexperiences, but my job is to enjoy

(01:19:26):
it, because nobody wants to goto France and have a grumpy, cranky
leader who's not having fun.
So that was one of thesurprising things that I learned
was, oh, I'm here to model howto just let.
Let my enthusiasm and sense ofplayfulness come out and Invite people

(01:19:46):
to play with us.
So the one that we did lastyear was really great.
We got great feedback.
The feedback was very positiveand also gave some suggestions, which
I think is the best feedback.
Here's what worked and here'swhat you could also do.
So that takes a lot of timeand effort to create.

(01:20:09):
Again, same with anything.
The marketing is the hardestpart, and filling them is the biggest
work, I think.
But so far, so good.
We've just launched the twowe're doing in Paris this fall.
We're doing Paris Sketchbook,and then we're doing one called Sharpen
your creative edge for asmaller group.

(01:20:29):
And that is by application.
And we're going to be focusingon what people want to learn versus
saying here's what we're goingto teach you.
So everybody applies and tellsus what their creative edge is.
I want to learn composition, Iwant to learn contrast, or I want
to learn this.
And we'll design thecurriculum around them, and it'll

(01:20:50):
be much more intensive andmore of like a working studio than
a workshop where they're justlearning random stuff.
I really love the idea ofbeing a creative kook because I have
so many ideas and I.
There's just not enough timeto work on everything.
So you gotta.
One of the things you have todo when you have that impulse is

(01:21:13):
to just figure out which onesare either lighting you up the most
or gonna make the biggestimpact that can attract people.
So it's like, how do I takethis creative energy and apply it
towards things in a productive way?
Well, and don't you thinkdecision making is one of the hardest
things that we have to dealwith in life?

(01:21:34):
Yes.
Decision as a creative person.
Chris Gillebeau, I think itwas in his book $100 Startup, he
talks about a decision matrixand having a set of criteria that
you use for making decisions.
So whether you know what'smost profitable or what's most meaningful
to me or what do I know,people will let.

(01:21:55):
Like, how you make decisionsis something I think helps us for
that.
And you're.
You're pretty young too.
I mean, I think it's.
I would think of it as morelike, what do I want to do first?
What am I want to do now?
Because, like, this novelthat's coming out, this was in the
works for 15 years.
It was there.

(01:22:16):
So if you stay with it andjust keep doing stuff, you'll.
You'll be able to do all thereally potent ideas that are truly
meaningful for you, and you'rea creative kook.
Too.
I love it.
You are?
Yeah.
That reminds me of the.
There's a book about JimHenson called Make Art, Make Money,

(01:22:37):
where it talks about how heworked on all these different projects
in order to fund his creative work.
So he's working on theseprojects so that he can, you know,
go and do Fraggle Rock andstuff like that.
So just find out what you cando in order to support yourself as
a creative person and use thatto propel yourself forward.

(01:22:59):
Yep.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And having your energy, yourcreative energy for your own self.
Yeah.
Because our creativity is justnot going to stop.
It's going to go somewhere inour cooking or our relationships
or creating problems for ourselves.
So giving it something to dothat we want to do, I think, is.

(01:23:21):
Is where we want to be.
Yeah.
Point it towards somethingproductive instead of, you know,
just.
Just like you were saying withthe Archers, aiming for a target
audience.
This is the same thing where it's.
Instead of figuring out whoyour audience is, you figure out
what you need to work on,because you can have all those different

(01:23:43):
shots going all over the board.
I think it's cool that theidea that it's our side projects
that are the things that takeoff, not the, you know, things that
we're just like, I'm so into this.
I can't not do it.
I just have to do this.
And that.
That's the thing that has thatkind of energy that people are attracted

(01:24:05):
to, not necessarily the practice.
The thing that's, like.
It's, like, poking at you,like, constantly, like, okay, let
me see what this looks like.
If I were to kind of try towork on that.
Yeah.
And it may or may not work.
You only find out by eithersaying, okay, this is what I'm going
to do now, or, you know, okay,this can wait.

(01:24:27):
I think you have the right attitude.
You've said this a couple times.
Just like, well, let's see.
Yeah.
No one knows what's going to happen.
You know, like life.
Life is life, and stuff isgoing to happen or not happen.
And you.
You can do your best to kindof just point it in the direction
that you have the feeling it'sgoing to work for you.

(01:24:48):
Right.
Yeah.
Cool.
I have a few more questions left.
Do you know anyone personallywho also runs a standout creative
business, and what did they doto stand out?
I think this is a reallyinteresting question.
And the standout business, Ithink it's.
It's not easy to achieve.
But when you sent the questionto me, I thought the first person

(01:25:15):
I thought of was a reallyclose friend of mine, Tanya Reichley,
who lives in Ireland.
And her, her business iscalled Dancing with the Wild.
And she, she just, she's.
She's not really a personwho's like doing all the marketing

(01:25:35):
things or following all of the formulas.
She's very connected to herCeltic heritage and to sharing that
in pilgrimages and books.
And she publishes somethingcalled the Daily Sacred act, which
I think she's been doing forfive or more years, daily sending

(01:25:57):
out this missive.
And it's incredible.
It's inspiring and reminds meand the people that work with her
about staying connected to ourheritage and honoring our ancestors
and honoring the earth and thecycles of the earth.
So she really figured out howto make it work for herself.

(01:26:19):
She, she.
I think she has a.
I don't know if she has an mba.
She does have a businessdegree and she was in the corporate
world for, you know, when shefirst started out and then kind of
found this path and reallymade it work, but not in a businessy
kind of way.
So it's, it's.
I'm really impressed by howsuccessful she is and how she's always

(01:26:43):
stays true to herself and her,her work.
She will, she, she.
So she stands out to me assomebody who is successful on her
own terms and with great integrity.
I think one interesting thingabout honing in on something very,

(01:27:06):
very specific like heritage of Celtic.
Right.
Is that by focusing on that,it's becoming more universal somehow.
I don't know why this works,but the more specific of a thing
you're passionate about, themore people are likely to be like,
excited or interested in it.
I don't know what it is.

(01:27:27):
Well, you're really reachingthe people who are looking for that
too.
Yeah, it's just put yourselfout there and see what comes is sometimes
the best strategy to stand outbecause you're just doing it in a
way that no one else is.
You know, Kevin, some of thethings people say about what works
to succeed, I'm always justlike, kind of roll my eyes like.

(01:27:50):
But it's actually true.
You hear people talk aboutcontent marketing and putting stuff
out there and being consistent.
So she, she's been doing adaily email for years.
And same with my, my friendand colleague Koja.
She's been doing her weeklyYouTube video for 10 years.

(01:28:12):
So, yeah, she's reallysuccessful because she's staying
with it and, and doing it andis reliable and that.
That builds over time.
Yeah.
Oftentimes the people who aresuccessful are just the ones who
are left Standing aftereveryone else has already quit.
Right.
Because it's true if you quit,you're not going to make it, obviously.

(01:28:35):
So you just got to keep ongoing or refining what you're doing
in order to make it the thingthat works for you.
Yeah.
What is one extraordinarybook, podcast, documentary or tool
that has had the biggestimpact on your journey?
Really?
One.

(01:28:56):
How can I choose one?
What was the first thing thatcame to mind?
The first thing that came tomind is the person that I'm learning
from now.
And it's.
She's.
Her name is Joanna Penn.
Joe Penn.
You know, she's a British.
Yeah.
Author and podcaster, and shejust disseminates an incredible amount

(01:29:17):
of information.
So I've been publishing booksfor a long time, but every.
Everything changes.
Even since my last one, sixyears ago, so much has changed.
So since October, I've beenbuffing up on the landscape, the
publishing landscape, AI in publishing.
And I've been listening to herpodcast and then I subscribed to

(01:29:37):
her Patreon and it is notexpensive, but the value of that
and her monthly Q and A is like.
I sent in a question lastmonth and she answered it.
It was super helpful.
I've been listening to all the.
The former patron, only Q andA's that she's done.
I.
I can't even tell you how muchI've learned from her.

(01:30:00):
So much.
So much.
She's amazing.
She has a podcast, it's theCreative Pen podcast, and then she
also does one for her patronsin Patreon.
So then she also has anotherpodcast that she had me on and she's
bringing it back about traveland books.

(01:30:22):
So.
I love Joanna.
I just love her.
And, you know, she's so.
She sounds so cheerful andhappy all the time and I'm.
I don't know, I.
Very grateful for her andinfluenced by her work.
Yeah, I've listened to some ofher podcasts and they're like, extremely

(01:30:45):
detailed and, you know, timelyand all, all the things.
And she's very good at being ahost, too, and just talking about
her journey and other people's journeys.
Yeah, she's.
That's a great.
She's a great example ofbeing, you know, obviously a smart
business person and also that,that enthusiasm that we were talking

(01:31:06):
about, she's just really intoit and learning herself and sharing
what she's learning and howshe's operating her.
Her writing and publishingbusiness too.
I.
I just learned so much from her.
Awesome.
What do you think makes acreative business stand out and what
is one piece of advice thatyou would give another creative person

(01:31:28):
based on your journey, on howthey can try to stand out?
I think it's really hard tostand out.
There's more and more out there.
But I'm just looking at thenotes that I wrote.
I think it's something thatwe've alluded to and talked about
is being.

(01:31:49):
Being yourself.
So there are the kind offormulaic things or the general practice
rules of being consistent orfocus only on one thing, and some
of those are useful, but Ithink you still have to really be
yourself within it.
The people who I really admireare very.

(01:32:12):
They just are themselves.
They.
They're not apologizing,they're revealing themselves.
They're sharing who they areand what they care about, and just
that enthusiasm, that lifelongcommitment to something and their
enthusiasm.
So I guess authenticity iswhat makes a business stand out.

(01:32:34):
Yeah.
If you try to be somebodyelse, it's not one.
It's going to be very, like, draining.
First of all, Good point.
Trying to beat somebody else.
And, you know, you want toattract the people that are relatable
to you versus, you know, just anybody.
Because if you're attractingthe wrong people, you're also draining
your energy.
So it's about this exchangeof, you know, energy that's like

(01:32:58):
how you want to show up andhow you want other people to see
you as you're showing up.
Yeah.
So true.
Can you give the listeners achallenge that they can take action
on right away to startstanding out?
I really like free writing andwriting, like to a prompt and writing

(01:33:22):
without stopping or thinkingand just really letting yourself
flow with a timer.
A timer can kind of make usspeed up.
So it's not about speed, butabout just staying with it and writing.
Because if you set a timer for15 minutes, the first 10 minutes
might be.
Who knows what you're going toreally get to some good stuff in

(01:33:43):
those last minutes.
So I would set a timer, and Ithink this is helpful for anybody
in any.
No matter where they're at the prompt.
I have two prompts that arekind of the same, but just worded
a little differently.
What's true for me.
And then the other prompt iswhat I really want to say.

(01:34:05):
Hmm.
And I think that second oneespecially helps get to the honesty
of like, okay, here's what Ireally think, here's what I really
believe.
Here's what I really careabout, especially if you're stuck
or you're just.
How do I.
How do I articulate what Icare about?

(01:34:28):
What I really want to say can,can kind of remove some of those
layers that prevent us frombeing honest or authentic.
Yeah.
I think we, most of us, I meanthere has to be a censor, but most
of us censor even the thingsthat aren't really dangerous to say

(01:34:49):
or, you know.
Oh, you know, just out thereto say.
We're just scared of peopleseeing us in a way that we don't
agree with or whatever it is.
But the only way to, to reallyget people to notice who you are
is by putting yourself out there.
All of your.
Whatever that might be.

(01:35:10):
Yeah.
What you really care about.
And I, I was doing thisyesterday with.
For my novel.
Like I mentioned this earlier.
Why is this meaningful to me?
And I, I didn't get.
I, I got, you know, somethings out.
I'm like, I need to keep goingwith that to get to like, I, I want
to get to like for somethinglike this, like to the thing that

(01:35:31):
makes me cry because then it'slike, that's where it's like right
at the heart of what I reallycare about and what I really want
for the world versus like thesmart or the clever or the top of
mind ideas.
Like I want to get.
I want to drop down.
So yeah, I'm doing thatexercise myself.

(01:35:52):
Yeah.
I think the, one of the bestways to do that is just like a known
exercise is to just keep onasking why.
Yeah.
So if it doesn't feel deepenough, like why.
Just keep on asking yourself why.
Eventually you'll get to theactual root of what it is.
Because we all start at thesurface no matter what it is.
We've been trained to filter ourselves.

(01:36:12):
Yeah.
So just keep on asking untilyou're like, oh, okay, this is the
thing that is me and is goingto help other people too.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and getting to thosethings that are just like, oh, it
really is my ego.
Because I always wanted to bea writer and now I really feel like
a writer.
You know, like that might belike feel like an ego thing, but

(01:36:34):
it's actually like a, A truthor kind of coming home to like this
is who I really am.
I've always wanted this andnow I've done it.
And that's why.
Because now I'm really me.
That's all we, we're aimingfor when we're making our things
right.
Just to get our us out there.

(01:36:59):
Yeah.
Or else why else you doing it,you know?
Yeah.
Well, Cynthia, this has beenreally amazing talking to you again.
Thanks.
We could talk for hours on creativity.
I'm sure.
Oh, yeah.
Can people, where can peoplefind you and keep up to date with
what you've been up to andwhat you're going to be doing in
the future?

(01:37:19):
Thank you.
Yeah.
Everything is accessible on my website.
My company is called Originalimpulse, so it's original impulse.com
and there you can find thedifferent substacks that I do and
my bookshop, which we'rerecording this on February 3rd.
The bookshop will be up laterthis month in the next week or so,

(01:37:41):
so all of my books will beavailable there, too.
A lot of people are moreinterested in buying directly from
authors now, so I'm makingthat possible with all my books.
Awesome.
And then just one morereminder of your your upcoming book
is coming out.
When?
June 9th.
Oh, it's so exciting.
June 9th.

(01:38:01):
It's called Her Lisbon Colors.
It will be available firstthrough me.
I'm going to do a fun limitededition with some fun things that
will be with it and then itwill be available everywhere else
as well.
Awesome.
Well, yeah, thanks again forcoming on, Cynthia.
It's been a pleasure.
My pleasure.
Thanks so much, Kevin.
Okay.
Bye.
Bye.

(01:38:21):
Cynthia is not just helpingwriters finish their books.
She's helping them trust theirvoice, stick with the messy parts,
and finally get their wordsout into the world.
Now it's your turn.
Got a story that's beensitting on the shelf.
An idea you can't shake buthaven't followed through on?
Head to standoutcreatives.comand book a free strategy session.
You'll make a simple plan, getyou unstuck, and help you finally

(01:38:44):
move forward.
Because your words matter andsomeone out there needs to hear them.
Let's do it together.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}17: Finish Your Book Without Burning Out with Cynthia Morris