8: Creative Career Success: How Self-Published Authors and Creatives Can Build a Thriving Business with Russell Nohelty

Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
Welcome to another episode ofthe Standout Creatives.
Today I'm joined by thetalented and prolific Russell Nolte,
a USA Today best sellingauthor, comic book creator and creative
entrepreneur.
He's written over 40 novelsand raised nearly a million dollars
through crowdfunding.
Russell's career spans comics,novels and co founding ventures like

(00:23):
Writer MBA to help authorsthrive in today's ever changing publishing
world.
Russell combines hisstorytelling skills with a deep understanding
of marketing and audience building.
He shares his insights throughhis substack the Author Stack, helping
authors and writers growsustainable careers.
From successful crowdfundingcampaigns to navigating self publishing,

(00:44):
Russell has done it all andhe's here with us to share his expertise
today.
Russell, can you tell us alittle bit about how you got into
your journey and what you'redoing now?
Sure.
Thanks for having me.
I started in college, I wantedto go to film school and I ended
up in Jace Journalism schoolat University of Maryland.

(01:07):
And after that I worked in OnCapitol Hill for about six months
before I went in on my own.
I was like, I'm just going todo, I'm just going to do my own,
my own thing.
And so I did commercials.
I went to Denmark on a movie once.
That's the second, second a c.
I, I wrote my own movie, Idirected my own shorts and I directed

(01:33):
my own stuff.
I never really had tons ofsuccess with that.
And then I started doing, butthen I started doing publishing.
But while I was doing that, Idid a blog called the LA Grind.
When I moved to LA in 2000,like I started in 2011, I have, I
have email, I have like thearchive and it says the first post

(01:56):
was 2011.
So.
No, that's not true.
It was 2008.
It's 15 years, 15 years havebeen documenting my journey and I
kind of, what my goal hasalways been is to create as much
of an unbroken chain of whatit means to live a creative life
and build a creative businessas I possibly can.

(02:18):
Um, when I first started doingbooks, at least I people did not
believe that you could do,stay true to your art and also make
money.
And I feel like if I've donenothing else, like I make weird books,
man.
I made, I drew a book about apickle going through a black hole

(02:42):
once called Gherkin Boy.
Like I made a book called, Idrew a book called how not to Invade
Earth.
Like, I've made very esoteric comics.
I've made very mainstream comics.
I've done anthologies.
As I mentioned, I directed movies.
Like I've done all of thisstuff and like I leave a lot of money

(03:02):
on the table, don't get me wrong.
But like I've made, I've beenlike a six figure author since 2017.
I've never dipped below thatand like just making very weird stuff.
And recently I part partneredwith Monica Lionel who's another
publishing expert and westarted doing very mainstream courses

(03:25):
and then we have slowly gottenway more esoteric.
I have a book about capital,about how to thrive in a capitalist
dystopia coming out as a writer.
I have another book that Ijust finished called Publishing is
Broken.
But it doesn't have to break you.
Like it's just a lot of what Ithink the actual problem is.

(03:49):
So it's a lot of like systemicissues and it's been basically 15
years of building these smallbuilding blocks till I get to this
place where I can have a veryweird conversation with people which
is like, which I appreciateand I hope one day someone will say

(04:10):
like this is one of thegreatest collections of like what
it means to live a.
Create.
Build a creative business.
Live a creative life like inhuman history.
That's a.
I'm not, I'm not on arrogantor confident in myself, but we have
over a thousand posts on theauthor's 1200 I think at last count.

(04:31):
It's just like courses andinterviews and just.
It's always the thing I'mreally interested in is like how
can you lead a creative lifeand make the money you want without
burning out or selling your soul?
Yeah, I think that's one ofthe biggest issues with creative

(04:52):
people is they don't know howto balance their art with trying
to make money in order tosustain it.
It's not about making moneyand becoming like a capitalist pig
or whatever.
It's about, you know, trying.
Trying to do it enough so thatyou can live the life you want to
lead while also telling yourunique stories or perspectives.
I think.
Yeah, well, it's like, is themoney the means or the ends?

(05:15):
And I think most business andmost business writers like the money
is the point.
So like they don't actuallycare what they sell.
They, they might want to sella very good product.
They may be proud of theproduct, but like the end is not
the product.
The money is the end goal.
It's like when you invest in a401k like you don't care what they're

(05:39):
making.
Like for the most part youjust want the money when you retire.
And in the same way a lot ofpeople just say I'm going to build
a business.
And you're like, well what doyou want to build?
I want to make a million dollars.
And you're like, okay, wellit's actually pretty easy to make
a bunch of money if you don'tcare what you're making because you

(06:01):
would say hey, there's thisbig problem and like it's in a trillion
dollar industry and like all Ihave to do is X, Y and Z and like
then I put some ads to it, jamthrough and it makes money unfortunately.
And some creators are like that.
They, what they, they love isthe process.
I know a lot of creators whoare like I will write anything as

(06:25):
long as I'm writing.
And so like but most, a lot ofcreatives and a lot of heart based
entrepreneurs.
So like people that live likethis kind of creativity course creators,
even like some care basedpeople like YouTubers, like all of
these people, the money is notthe end.

(06:47):
The money is the means.
The what they're making is the end.
And it's an entirely differentway of going about your life.
And if you are someone whouses money as a means to be, to make
something, not make somethingas a means to make money, literally
every piece of business advicemakes no sense to you because you're

(07:10):
like, I can't just do that.
I can't just look at anindustry and see what is trending
because like it has nothing todo with the thing that I'm making.
So like what really whenyou're make when, when money is the
means to the end, what we haveto do is say how can some of this
money go towards making thenext product, but how can another

(07:32):
portion of this money gotowards finding the people who are
going to resonate with this product?
And it's a very different wayof like existing in the world than
almost every piece of businessadvice that has ever come up before.
And most business and mostwriting advice that I find still
to this day is like find apain point, find a, find an audience

(07:57):
and like make things that isgoing to get the most traction because
then that will come back andyou'll be able to make money and
it's like, and then you'll beable to write, which is great.
Unless like the writing's notthe end, like the message is the
end or like if like youactually do care about like writing
only in fantasy or you want towrite a specific kind of story, like

(08:19):
all of those things, everypiece of business advice breaks down.
And when you really come downto like why creators Hate business.
I think it's because up untileven today, they are taught that
their product is a means tomake money.

(08:42):
And in reality, money is ameans to make product.
And unless you know thatdifference, like, nothing, like,
everything's going to seemridiculous to you.
Yeah, I think there's a verygood book called Make Art, Make Money.
I don't know if you've read it.
It's about Jim Henson'sjourney and how he used his art to

(09:06):
make money in order tocontinue to make art.
So, like you were saying, it'sa way to fuel your creativity even
more.
And sometimes you'll have todo something that's not quite creative,
but it is a way for you to beable to continue to do it.
Absolutely.
And, like, part of it is, Icall it the Bullseye method, which
is, like, you have this veryweird thing, is, like, your main

(09:28):
thing you care about, but youslowly expand out to, like.
So I had this book, IchabodJones, Monster Hunter.
It's very weird, but, like, itis a comic and it's a graphic novel
series.
And, like, technically it's 16issues, but, like, it's very weird.
Like, but everyone who likesIchabod likes the other stuff that
I do.

(09:48):
And then I had this seriescalled the Godsverse Chronicles,
which is, like, much more mainstream.
Like, people can go, oh, Ilove that.
A lot of people can.
And, like, then I had thisseries called the Obsidian Spindle
Saga, which is like fairy tales.
And.
But, like, how I do fairy tales.
And then I have this seriescalled Cthulhu Is Hard to Spell,
which is about Lovecraft.

(10:08):
And, like, at every stage,like, the goal of that extra ring
is to find people who will goto the center.
Because, like, that is my core audience.
People.
But also it allows you to,like, you know, my weird Ichabod
books not making 40 grand.
But, like, when I launched thelast Cthulhu book, it made 40 grand.

(10:29):
Over 40 grand.
Like, it's not something like,a publisher has never had an interest.
Most publishers haven't had aninterest in my more esoteric, weirder
books.
Like, Time is a Flat Circle,but, like, the Cthulhu book, everyone,
it's, like, very easy to consume.
It is Lovecraft stories aboutthe monsters of Lovecraft.
Like, the first book in theObsidian Spindle Saga is called the

(10:51):
Sleeping Beauty, then theWicked Witch, then the Fairy Queen,
then the Red Rider.
And it's like, okay, the firstfour books there are, like, tailored.
That someone's like, oh, Ilike fantasy.
I like Sleeping Beauty.
Oh, I like.
I Like, like weird fairy tale worlds.
Like, so it's.
It, like, is meant to be asexpansive as possible while still

(11:13):
being something that, like, Icare deeply about.
And you're, you're so right.
You have to, like, you have tokind of make this balance or you
have to shut up.
That's my rule.
Like, you can make a choicethat is, like, not going to make
you money or is unlikely tomake you money.

(11:35):
But, like, if you make thatchoice, you can't complain that you're
not making money.
Like, just like you, you.
You knew.
It's like, you can, like, youcan like, like, you can have a child
and, like, complain about that child.
So in the same way, you can,like, have a thing that's not making

(11:56):
money, but you can't be like,why are you not making money?
Because, like, there's noworld in which you should have made
money on, like, a 14th centuryScottish loot festival in Sheboygan,
Wisconsin.
Like, none of those thingsare, like, designed to, like, make
a lot of money.

(12:18):
You may, there may be anaudience of 50 people for it.
And hey, man, if there's 50people at your audience, you have
gotten 100 of that audience.
And that's amazing.
But, like, you can make.
So, like, I'm, I'm very.
What I would like is forartists to understand that every

(12:38):
decision that they make has consequences.
They.
It either increases ordecreases the audience size.
It either increases ordecreases how much someone will spend
on the product as well.
So if you know all of thesethings, what it does is, like, not
cheap in the art.

(12:59):
It's.
It says, oh, well, like, theart does need that.
It does need that concession,but it doesn't need this concession.
Like, maybe instead of like a14th century loot festival, like,
set in Cheboygan, Wisconsin,you, like, make something in the

(13:20):
Scottish Highlands or you makesomething that's like, Regency, which
is more popular.
Like, you make.
So you make these, these choices.
That's like, okay, the core ofmy art is that, like, it needs these
five things.

(13:41):
Without these five things, itwill break.
But in order to get the mostpeople to want to, like, read this
thing, what I need to do is,like, make these other 10 concessions
because it will get morepeople to read my work.
And we're making this.
We're making these unconscious decisions.

(14:02):
And I would just like them tobe conscious, because if they are
conscious, then, like, we have intention.
And when we have intention,then we can start making the career
that we want.
Yeah.
And especially if you start atthe point where you're generating
the interest.
You need interest before youcan make money from your thing.

(14:24):
If you don't have anyinterest, no one's buying it.
You're not gonna make a careerout of it.
So, right, you need togenerate something that builds enough
interest in order to getpeople to at least see if your writing
is even worth reading.
Because sometimes it's not, right?
It's like you need somethingthat will generate enough revenue
for you to live.

(14:45):
Almost every.
I mean, I'm.
I'm a writer, so I deal mostlywith writers, although I've dealt
with a lot of artists andother creatives.
And I think this is true forevery profession.
But it's definitely true forwriters, professional writers who
do novels.
They have a series that is we.
I call it a signature series.
It's usually 10 books at leasta million words that, like, continually

(15:10):
brings money to them.
Whether it's like.
Whether it's the Dark Tower,whether it's Game of Thrones and,
like, they can do other weirdstuff because, like, their main series
is making money.
But, like, you know, without.
Without that, they're, like,bouncing back and forth and they
have no stability.
With the stability of havingone line that's like, okay, I can

(15:33):
always fall back on that.
Like, that's.
That.
That's always going to be,like, $50,000 a year or, like, whatever.
Whatever that is by havingthat, like, a lot of people care
about, like, Patreon orSubstack or something like that.
Because, like, oh, If I made20 grand a year and I knew that that
20 grand was coming, how muchwould that change things?

(15:55):
But, like, it doesn't have tonecessarily be there.
It could be a job.
I mean, a lot of writers have jobs.
A lot of creators have jobs.
It could be like, you doconsulting work.
It could be, like, you do onebig mural for, like, big Pharma a
year, and that pays you 400 grand.
And, like, the rest of it,like, you donate everything to indigenous

(16:15):
children to, like, make up forthe fact that, like, you're, like,
selling your soul to work forthe big pharma mural.
Mural thing.
But, like, it has, like, weneed to have one.
At least one path that's like,okay, that's going to, like, continually
give me revenue.

(16:35):
And then you can either dothat again, or you can just, like,
be like, okay, now I'm gonnamake my weird loot festival.
Or, like, my weird.
I say with writers, I givethis example, like, so there's a
genre called cozy mystery,which is like, Murder She Wrote,

(16:56):
Psych Monk like these Matlock.
Like, these things that arelike, well, not Matlock, because
it's.
But like, it's.
It's a, like, person makes,like, a usually older woman solving
mysteries in, like, thischarming, cozy town where, like,
nothing really that terriblegoes wrong except murder.

(17:16):
And it's like, when you makeone of these things, there's a couple
of things that are true.
One, if you make it in acoffee shop, a bake shop, or a tea
shop, more people read it.
And, like, if it's aparanormal book, if someone is a
witch, they just, like, peopleread it more.

(17:37):
It's more popular, there'smore potential readers than if they're
like, a psychic or a medium orlike, some other kind of paranormal
thing.
So, like, does your book haveto be set in a yogurt shop?

(17:58):
Or can we set it in one ofthose three major things?
Because it will then by makingno other change to the script, you
just, like, now it's notyogurt they're making, it's coffee.
You now, like, are just more popular.
Like, does your.
Does your paranormal personhave to be a flame elemental or can

(18:21):
they be a witch?
Now you might come back andsay, no.
Yogurt is essential to how wedesign this series.
I'm like, okay, cool.
Like, you now know your bookwill be significantly less popular
because it has a yogurt shop.
And, like, hopefully you aregoing to make yogurt integral to,
like, the book series.

(18:42):
Otherwise, why?
And in the same way, it'slike, if your person has to be a
flame elemental, like, okay,that's going to make it significantly
less, Less, less marketable.
And that is okay as long asyou know those two things are true.

(19:02):
Because you could have, beforethe book ever launched, before you
wrote one word, you alreadydetermined how successful this series
is going to be.
You already gave it a cap.
Where did you figure out?
Or I guess, is this, like,common knowledge that these are the

(19:22):
specific elements that make abook more popular?
Is that something that youstudied or is it something that circulates?
Or.
I rely on Monica, my businesspartner, for a little bit of that.
But also, just, like, there'sa place called K Lytics that does
analysis of, like, the mostpopular tropes.
And it's a pretty well known,like, if you ask, if you.

(19:43):
If you went to, like, oneboard and asked, like, the right
person, or, like, you can alsogo to, like, Amazon and see, like,
what is the most popular.
You can go to, like, a bookcover designer who designs that.
That genre and See whatthey're making.
So, like, it's just.

(20:04):
But the witch thing is verycommon knowledge at this point to
like.
And also just if you.
You should be reading in thegenre that you make and like, you'll
see wow.
Everything is a bake shop.
It's a.
There's a.
Sometimes there's a Jamaicanbake shop or a Korean bake shop or

(20:24):
a.
Or a.
Or a French bake shop, but it's.
It's always a bake shop.
And that's my dog, so I'mgoing to let him out now.
Okay.
Out.
Go, go.
Thank you.
Bye.
Bye.
Lasted as long as he could.
I mean, that was pretty good, right?

(20:46):
That was pretty good.
Longer than most people canlisten to me talk about this stuff.
So how do you stand out fromthe other books of the same genre
if it's all the same genre?
I know you talk about KindleUnlimited as the way that if you're
included, people are going todownload it just because you're getting

(21:06):
it for free or whatnot.
Well, but should you?
This is the question.
This is always.
The thing is everyone wants tostand out.
But my question is always, doyou want to stand out or do you want
to be read?
What is important?
The COVID to be unique orsomeone to actually read the material
that you have inside?

(21:26):
Because if you want someone toread the material inside, it should
look like other books that it is.
Like, it's like if you went tobuy a hammer and you found something
that looked like a shoe, youwouldn't buy a hammer even.
It could be the greatesthammer of all time.
But like, you're not gonna buythe shoe because, like, it's not
a hammer.
So if you're going to getsomething, you should give people

(21:51):
that.
There's this adage that I.
I think about a lot, which isyou should not be more than two standard
deviations from the mean.
So we.
I talk about this in fantasy a lot.
If you ha.
You have to do 80% of a world,probably like 90% has to feel like

(22:18):
you already know.
So, like, if you were writinga high fantasy world, you can change
15% of it and to make itreally unique.
But if you do not give someoneenough grounding that they understand
what is happening, then theywill just stop reading or they'll

(22:39):
get.
Because they'll get confused.
So a thing that writers make amistake writers make is making their
weird.
Every weird idea in book one.
Whereas book one should feelusually like we are in things we
already know.
Generally by book seven, youcan Then make it as weird as you

(23:02):
want.
But you have to, like, slidepeople in because to.
To like what you're doing.
If you want to have the widestability to make people.
To have people read you andmake a decision about you.
And that's the whole thing.
Like, we need the maximumamount of people to make decisions

(23:23):
about us.
Because if 2 million peoplemake a decision about you, probably
1.8 won't care, and 1 pointand point and.
And 1.8 million will not careat all.
Or they'll be like, it's fine.
Like, I'll read it, but like, it.
It's okay.

(23:43):
Like, a hundred thousand willhate it and a hundred thousand will
love it.
And, like, that's the game.
Like, the game is just, I needas many people to have an opinion
about me as possible, or Ineed no one to have an opinion about
me at all.
And I just need to be so blandthat everyone reads me, because everyone

(24:05):
who reads this genre readsthis thing.
Like, it has to be so, soinoffensive that, like, it's just
motel art.
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
So it's just knowing what your.
Your end goal is essentiallythe purpose of you creating, right?
Is it to create, to becreative, which is fine, you don't

(24:25):
need to make money from it, oris it to, like you said, have a career?
And in order to make a career,you need to have as many potential
buyers for your thing aspossible, right?
Or else you're not gonna.
I think that you can do this.
I.
I think that either path, youcan be successful.
There's two main paths.
So, like, one of them, okay,so this is going to require.

(24:46):
You know what arbitrage is,which is a very complicated term,
but let's just say the deltabetween supply and demand, which
is, like, if the supply is athousand, and a particular market
can have like a hundreds couldsupport like, 2,000, the arbitrage
is a thousand.
So, like, there's two thingsthat you can be doing in your career.

(25:08):
You can be finding arbitrage.
So, like, how you find arbitrage?
You go on social media, yousee what's hot, you tweet a thing,
and like, oh, look, becauseeveryone's searching for this thing.
I'm, like, going and trending upward.
And like, great.
I'm like, I've now taken.
And there are people, I'm sureyou can probably name them.
I find them all exhausting.

(25:29):
But that are, like, always inthat conversation, no matter what
the conversation is.
It's like they ride every waveand they always seem to be getting
good traction, but, like,probably not that many people, like,
actually care about their take.
They just care that it's atake that is, like, informs them

(25:53):
that.
And that's like a reporter.
Like, a reporter who.
Like a beat reporter.
Very rarely is someone like, Ireally like how they covered that
city council meeting on theother side.
It's about building arbitrage.
So everyone has, like, zeronet, zero arbitrage, which is like,

(26:15):
no one cares about you becauseno one's made an opinion about you.
And what.
And people like that are like,Dave Barry, stay Barry relevant anymore.
I mean, to certain people.
Yes.
Well, but, like, he.
He's a humorous columnist.
A columnist is the otherexample that I is like you.

(26:38):
So every article they're.
They're making, they're givinga take.
And some people are like, Ireally like Dave Barry's take.
And some people are like, Idon't like that at all.
But the people that aresaying, yes, I really like Dave Barry's
take, they are opting in andbeing like, now I'm a Dave Barry
fan.
I'm gonna follow Dave Barry.
I'm gonna read his column.

(26:59):
I'm.
I'm buying this paper for Dave Barry.
And so you can have successeither way.
But Dave Barry has the harderpath at the beginning, because who
cares about what Dave Barry thinks?
Like, Dave Barrett, like, whenDave Barry graduated high school,

(27:20):
like, who cared what DaveBarry had to say?
Everyone.
Everyone who cared about thatcity council meeting still cared
about that city councilmeeting the day that Dave Barry graduated
high school.
So, like, he could go and say,I'm gonna go cover city council meetings,
and boom, he's got an audienceright there forever.

(27:41):
But only the audience at thepaper has, like, no one.
If he leaves that paper, veryfew people are going to be like,
oh, cool, I'm going to followyou to this.
It's gonna be like, whatever.
Just like city council meeting.
Whoever covers it, covers it.
But, like, over time, DaveBarry, like, his arbitrage grows

(28:02):
and grows and grows and growsuntil he is 10 years on, like, worth.
I don't know how much it's worth.
I'm just gonna say a million dollars.
So, like, he now hasbargaining power.
Dave Barry can write fewer columns.
Dave Barry can do.
Can.
Can.
Can, like, negotiate.
Dave Barry makes a hundredtimes more than he would have 10
years ago.

(28:23):
But what happens is peoplewant to be Dave Barry without.
Do without building theaudience that Dave Barry does.
Like, they want to just comeout and be like, oh, why is My weird
esoteric, like frog crochetnot making a billion dollars.
And it's like, well, like,who's, like, who's.

(28:44):
Like, probably 10 people arelooking at that.
So, like, are you.
Did you go out to wear frogcrochet to like, maybe a knitting
festival or like a swap meetand like, find.
Did you like, go into forums?
Did you do any work to try andfind this person to show them why
you're frog croquet?
I'm only saying that because Ihave a little frog croquet thing.
I don't know why I said it,but like, it's.

(29:08):
But this is not going to be ina supermarket or not a super, like
a toy store.
Like, because it will.
It can't be mass produced.
Like, so like it's not goingto ever make it to a toy store.
Whereas, like this, this likeamazingly brave Klaus the tiger can
be so like this can just sitin a toy store and like the same

(29:31):
amount of people are going tobuy it constantly.
But if you, if you can make anaudience, if you can find an audience
for your frog crochet,suddenly you've built something that
no one else can replicate.
Because it's your audience.
Your people are buying it.
They are buying in for your take.
But you are not able to startbeing the person who has the weird

(29:58):
take unless you are willing togo out and find people who will listen
to your weird take and optinto it.
Because there's just thatthere's not a wave of people that
are searching forpsychological mind screws comic books.
So you got to find them.

(30:18):
You got to go to where they are.
And this is, I think, is oneof the biggest mistakes that creators
make.
They.
They think that posting onlineis audience building when really
it's nothing.
Because, like, who is going tosee it, who's going to look for it,
who's going to read it?

(30:38):
Who wants the.
There are people that want theesoteric take, but you have to do
the work of gathering them together.
And now once you gather themtogether, suddenly you have way more
power than this person over here.
Because this person has tokeep covering city council meetings
every day of their life.
They have to.
If they ever stop going to thecity council meeting and recording

(31:01):
the minutes, they don't get paid.
But like, you can do more now.
But like, they can do more atthe beginning.
And it's just making.
So it's not like, do you wantsuccess or do you not want success?
It's really like, do you wantto find arbitrage or Build arbitrage
and like one of them is goingto lead to different levels of success

(31:26):
at different times and meanmore to a different group of people.
Yeah, that's a good way tolook at it because you can, you can
have a built in audience butyou're part of somebody else's platform.
Like social media is, ismostly that or you can kind of build
it from the ground up.
And I think that's where mostpeople even today is still.
Email is still the number oneway to get people to continue to

(31:49):
follow you because you havetotal control of the people who are
on your list.
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean the best is in person,gather in person and then email and
then like text message,probably text.
And then like it goes, startsto significantly downhill.
And it's only because theseplatforms, they own the algorithm.

(32:11):
Like unless you own, likeunless you own the chain of custody
between you and your person,like they can, it can be taken away
from you.
So it's like not, it's not theperson who follows you on social
media that doesn't want tofollow you.
It's the social media platformthat's saying you don't get access
to this person anymore.
And so like why you want, themore you can control that local farmer's

(32:38):
market is great because.
Hey, you see Becky every week.
Hey look, here's your greens, Becky.
I got, I got them for you.
Like you can actually see them.
And then the, everythingbeyond that is like, how can I, how
can I have directcommunication with this person without
an algorithm getting in the way?

(32:59):
Yeah, I think in the beginningit was very easy.
At the beginning of everyplatform, it's very easy to hit people
because those platforms needto find as many users as possible
to make money themselves.
And until they do that, theypush your stuff as much as you can
give it.
But at a certain point theydecide to switch it.
And now they're all aboutmaking money.

(33:21):
So you can't rely on that.
Well, so this is where I, Ithink that what happens, how I see
it is Facebook that sucks nowbecause they force you to pay for
people and you never getaccess to like your thing.
And they have bot characters.
I think this is what Facebookalways was.

(33:42):
The difference is VC moneysubsidized it not sucking as bad
as it did at the beginning.
And that is what all of theseplatforms do.
They, they take investmentthat allows them to make their crappy
platform not crappy becauseit's like, oh, we have money, we

(34:04):
cannot do advertising, wecannot paywall, we cannot gate all
of this stuff, we cannotthrottle you because, like, we have
money.
But eventually money is like,well, now we want to make the money.
I don't want to give you the money.
I want to make the money.
And that is when the, theplatforms all show their true colors

(34:27):
and they all go, well, this isactually what we are all along.
We just wanted you to think so.
Everyone who say so this isthe reason that this is important
is because people complainingabout social media now and, and longing
for the good old days, theynever happened.
They never existed.
They were being subsidized.

(34:48):
Like, someone was payingFacebook to not be crappy, but it
was always not crappy.
It was always this.
It just felt different becausesomeone was giving you money, them
money to be better.
And when you have that, youcan say, oh, well, like, now they're
tricking me.

(35:08):
They were just tricking me before.
So, like, it doesn't matterwhat they were before.
This is what actually they want.
This was always their plan.
This crappy.
Like when they went into VCs,and when Facebook went into VCs,
they didn't say, give me abunch of money.
I'm going to bring a bunch ofpeople together.
They said, we're going tobring a bunch of people together.
And then we're going to trickcreators into doing, into like, bringing

(35:30):
their audience there.
And then we're going to like,make people pay to access them and
we're going to increasepricing and we're going to do X,
Y.
And like, their pitch was,this is how we're going to monetize
eventually.
So, like, this is the reality.
What you are, what you witnessin every platform at the beginning

(35:50):
is not reality.
Which is why I tend to neverbe on any platform anymore with,
with one exception, which isSubstack, which I probably wouldn't
have joined if the socialmedia component was there.
But, like, at least they don'tdo ads.
I don't know.
Like, I have a fair weirdrelationship with Substack, but I
do.
Like, they are also subsidized.

(36:12):
So, like, at some point VCmoney will say, thank you, we need
to make our money back now,and things will start getting worse.
I don't know when that is tick.
But like, every platform,every platform that relies on VC
money and advertising spendand like, and network effects, everyone

(36:34):
goes through the same cycle.
Yeah.
How would you recommend peopleapproach each of those?
Would you say, just stay offof it or just do the ones or two
of them that might work thebest for them?
Or how would you build yourlist if you were starting over, I
would.
Say find the platforms thatfeel intuitive, make intuitive sense

(36:57):
to you, because those are theones where so sub.
The reason I got so intosubstack was because when I, when,
when notes came out, I waslike, oh my God, I get it.
Like, this is just 2012 Facebook.
I can totally game this algorithm.
I can totally.
I know every trick to play onthis algorithm and it all worked.

(37:19):
And now I'm like, oh, I havelike the arbitrage built in.
Like, I have the substack book.
I have all these things.
So like, people like, find me now.
So like.
But like, I, I tried Blue skyand I was like, oh, Blue sky set
up like Twitter.
I never got Twitter.
Like, I never got, I never gotthat platform.
So like, when I'm like, I'm,I'm tweeting, I'm.

(37:41):
I'm skating or whatever thething is over there and there and
I'm like, I don't understand,like, I have no idea how this works.
So, like, it's probably nevergoing to work for me.
So I like deleted my account.
So, like, I think probablywhat you should do is try platforms
like one or two at a time.

(38:03):
3.
Just like find the ones thatyou're like, I love this.
I totally understand how this works.
Tick Tock.
I hate it.
I can't get on it.
I can't do it.
But Facebook works for mebecause Facebook is about gathering
collaborators and like thenperforming an action together like

(38:24):
an anthology or a.
Or some sort of drive or something.
So like we're all.
Then I understand how subs,how platforms work that are like
more social centric that, thatbut like small group where it's like
your goal is to make friendswith the most powerful people on

(38:47):
this platform and then work together.
But Tick Tock doesn't work forme because, like, I'm never gonna
do that.
I just, I can't.
I just like, my brain does notwork that way.
I can't stay on there lookingat social at like the Tick Tock feed.
But like, I know a lot ofpeople love it and like, if you love
it, if it makes intuitivesense to you, then like, that is

(39:11):
when you should double down.
If it doesn't make intuitivesense to you, then, like, you should
not.
Because the only goodmarketing is the marketing that you
do.
And you just won't do thingsthat like, you don't like over time.
You just won't.
Especially at the beginningwhen, like, it's so hard to do anything.

(39:32):
Like when you're not makingmoney, doing anything when like your
arbitrage is so badeverywhere, where it feels like you
are just dying.
Like it's so hard to do itwhen you don't intuitively at least
enjoy the platform.

(39:54):
And overall, my marketingstrategy is go places that you want
to be and find people therethat want to hang out with you and
make something cool.
And if you can be a collectoror like a leader or like someone
who sits at the hub of like ananthology or I don't know, a movie,

(40:22):
something where like you haveto bring people together because
everyone wants to do a thing,no one wants to lead a thing.
So like if you can somehowcollect and this, you could do this.
Literally any, any human cando this right now.
You, you go and you find 10other people that are at your exact

(40:46):
level, have similar audiencesto you and you just say, hey, let's
do a virtual conference together.
If it's let, let's do ananthology together.
Let's do whatever the thing is together.
And you put yourself in themiddle, you do the anthology.
You then capture the emailaddresses of the people who are there.

(41:09):
Because you have now collected10 people's email best emails.
Just like, oh, all the peoplethat are interested, that are in
my niche, that are doing a thing.
Like all of these people thathad a hundred people on their email
list.
Now I have a hundred people onmy email list who are all of those
people's best emails.

(41:30):
And as long as you're not adick about it, like don't be a jerk
about it, but like then younow have 200 people on your email
list.
Well, you can do that withpeople with 250 emails and then you
can do that with like peoplewith a thousand emails.
You can just keep daisychaining your way up this way of
like making these bigger andbigger projects that like you were

(41:52):
at the center of andeventually suddenly you're the person
with like 10,000 and 20,000 emails.
And then you have like, thenyou're starting to meet like the
biggest players and that iswhen like it just exponentially like
increases for you.
But literally you can do notdo this on platform.

(42:15):
You have to do it in a placethat you control the train of data,
whether that's a circlecommunity or like mighty network
or your email list or like in person.
But like literally any humanbeing that's sitting here, no matter
your level, can do this rightnow and in two months execute something.

(42:45):
Yeah, I think it's about thepower of having like minded people
in a group and A lot ofcreators like to go solo and do everything
themselves, which is.
Leads to, you know, like, oh,I can't.
I don't know how to do anything.
But the more you work withother people who are also interested
in the same things, the betterit'll be because you're not doing

(43:06):
it by yourself.
You're kind of workingtogether to make yourselves grow
in the same manner.
Right?
Right.
And, like, then what happensis, let's say you do an anthology.
Suddenly you've got 40 peoplethat were in an anthology with you.
Some of them will start theirown anthologies, and you'll start
getting, like, you'll startgetting accept, asked, not even accepted,

(43:30):
like, asked into theiranthologies because you're like,
you.
It's like your coaching treethat you've built up and nobody ever
does it.
I talk about this constantly.
And, like, I think maybe likefive or six people have ever, in
20 and 10 years of me talkingabout this, taking me up on it, I've
actually gone through and donethis strategy.

(43:52):
But it is the best strategy ifyou want to actually grow a successful
creative business.
Because everyone is nowworking to a singular goal and you.
The only thing you reap aboveeveryone else is, like, the access
to the emails or, like, the people.

(44:12):
And because they're allsharing, you get all of the people
who are most interested in the topic.
Now, you could go and, like,drop a bunch of money on ads or,
like, do a bunch of other.
Do a sales page.
And, like, sure, there's otherways to do this, but, like, if you
want to do it organically,like, man, it is like, still the

(44:34):
wild west out there.
And even then, if there arenot enough people doing this at any
level, but, like, at thesmaller you are, the bigger your
opportunity is to do this,because there's more people who are
at this.
The smaller you are, the morepeople are at that level to collaborate
with.
And if you can, like, be thenext the node of the network to help

(44:58):
get people from 10 subscribersto 100 subscribers, to a thousand
subscribers, like, to workingon Marvel and DC and all of those
things.
And the more people that arein your network, the more you have
these chaotic strategic thingshappening and, like, these, like,
nodes that are firing all together.
And, like, good things are happening.
And, like, you are like, havesome instead of having no agency,

(45:23):
you're saying, well, I don't know.
This is the thing that I'mbest at creating right now, so I'm
just gonna do that.
What was the first anthologythat you kind of worked on that you
discovered this or was it an anthology?
Was it a giveaway?
Was it raffle?
What did you do?
It was make that first step.
So I mean, I did movies andstuff and that's very collaborative

(45:45):
back in the day.
But like the monsters.
What happened was I had twoprojects, so I was doing conventions
in comics.
You run the convention circuit.
There's like a bunch ofconventions around the country and
you kind of like go to themand that's how you sell your stuff.
So I was doing that pretty successfully.
And I had these two books,Ichabod Jones, Monster Hunter and
Katrina Hates the Dead.

(46:06):
And it was 2016.
I was like, I released my nextproject, which was a mystery novel,
tall and blog posts.
And it was tanking comparatively.
Like it was making like itmade like a third of the Trina books.
And before then I'd be on anup on an upward trajectory.
So I was like, what'shappening here?
And I.
And I started asking like,like, no shade, like, what's going

(46:28):
on?
And they're like, we just, wewant you to make monster comics.
We want you to make monster things.
Like, make monster comics.
And like, we will be there.
And I was like, oh, well, Iguess I can do that.
But like, I don't have a lotof money.
I had no money yet.
I had like money to produce.
I didn't know I had like no money.
I had the money enough to geta cover because I was spending all

(46:50):
of my money spending all of mymoney, like going back into shows.
And we were like losing ourshirts at that time.
Like, I thought we were gonnago bankrupt by the time that we could
turn it around.
I finally did turn it aroundwith like at the end of that year,
obviously.
But like, it was tough.
It was tough.
And I was like, all right,maybe I could do an anthology.

(47:15):
I've been.
I'd been rejected roundly fromevery anthology I'd ever applied
to and But I was like, youknow, I know how to make a comic.
I don't make a good comic.
Like, what comics sell.
I have a bunch of friends andso I just asked them, like, hey,
do you want to like, do.
I think it was like one to 15pages and like, it doesn't matter.
Like, just like, do it, don'tdo it.

(47:36):
I asked like, I had a big net,pretty big network at the time because
I've been doing comics nowsince 2010, so it's like five years.
And I knew some pretty wellknown creators, at least well known
on the indie scene because,like, I did Conventions.
And like, my stuff was alreadypretty good.
But so, like, I had a friend.

(47:57):
I had originally the originalincarnation of Wannabe Press.
We were publishing webbedcomics, and I had a small group of
creators who I was publishingtheir webcomic every day that ended
up not lasting that long.
But I met a person named EricLervold who had a comic called Red

(48:19):
Calaveras at the time.
And I was like, hey, will youdo a seven page story for five, six
page story?
I forget.
Exactly.
And we did that story.
And then I just managed all ofthese things coming in, and we didn't
have a great take rate.
I think I asked like 300people and like 50 to 30 or 40 did

(48:44):
it.
But, like, when you ask 300people, a lot of people, not many
people have to say yes for itto go well.
So I think we originally hadlike 500 pages committed, and we
ended up with like 250 pagesthat actually came into the book.
And I was like, okay, I gotAaron Alexevich, who does.

(49:06):
Who did.
Was a character designer onInvader Zim, because Invader Zim
was like our biggest comp.
You saw the B over there.
That's very Invader Zimmy.
So I asked him if he would doit, and he did.
And then I launched the bookon the.
And I was like, cool.

(49:26):
This is easy.
Like, I.
I met.
I had a bunch of friends.
I like, made a cool thing.
I like comics.
You like comics.
You could also do prose inthat first one.
So, like, it just like, yeah,it was fun.
And then I.
I started it.
We did.
Can I curse on this podcast?
Sure.
All right.
I did this.
I did this promo I started onValentine's Day, was called Love

(49:50):
Monsters are Better.
I started at day one, and inthat first day, it raised more than
I raised the entire previous year.
And I was like, oh, shit.
And people started sharing it,and it kept going and it kept going.
By the end of that campaign,it raised more than I had raised
every project before it.

(50:12):
And I was like, wow, that was fun.
And I made money.
Like, that was.
I wasn't even doing it becauseof, like.
And then I had like 600 people.
And then what I did is I havea book called Pixie Dust, which is,
like, done in a very, like,cartoony style.
And I launched it later thatyear and I was like, okay, so my

(50:36):
bet is that if I do thisanthology, I can then raise my book.
I can then sell my own bookthat's of a similar style, and, like,
it will do well.
Well, like, that one did evenbetter than the.
Than the.
Than the.
Than the anthology book.
And I was like, oh.
So, like, this is.

(50:56):
This is like a system.
You can, like, do ananthology, gather people, and then
launch your own project rightafter it.
Not right after a million,but, like, once that one delivers
and people like it.
And then those people were all super.
Like, they were all super.
I didn't have a 624 personaudience before.
Buying audience before, butall of these smaller creators all,

(51:18):
like, working together, alllike, their best people who were
most likely to like my PixieDust book bought this book.
And then, like, I put my book,it was an epic fantasy story at the
front of the Cthulhu of the Monster.
So it was the first thing thatpeople read.
So, like, people had now seenthe style.
They bought it because of thecartoony style cover.

(51:41):
And then they read my book, mystory first before they dropped off.
Liked that.
And then, like, the next bookhappened, and I was like, oh.
So then I asked people, what.
What should I make next?
Like, what's your.
And everyone was like,lovecraft, man.
Make a Lovecraft book.
I love Lovecraft.
Because I was like, lovecraft.
Like, my psychological mindscrew is very Lovecraftian.

(52:02):
So I started, like,researching it and getting things.
And like, I called it Cthulhuis Hard to Spell.
I put Cthulhu, the first namewas based on.
My friend has a book calledSeas for Cthulhu, a kid's book.
And I was like, that's very cute.
I was like, cthulhu is Hard to Spell.
And I was like, oh, well,that's a title.
And then that having.
Having the first one go,because this is the thing.

(52:27):
A large percentage of peoplewill not follow you the first time.
They want to know if you'regoing to beef it.
They're not willing to beef itwith you.
So, like, they'll wait.
So the second time, suddenlyall the people who, like, were like,
I don't know, man.
I don't know, man.
I don't know, man.

(52:47):
See that?
I raised, like, $50,000 forthese two projects one year, and
we're like, no, let's work together.
And so now I was getting,like, 75 of, like, the top comic
people and, like, in topindies and, like, I always get.
And everyone likes Cthulhu.
And so, like, I was getting away, like, bigger audience.

(53:12):
Like, like, suddenly I had,like, a bigger.
A way bigger audience to pull from.
Because now it wasn't just,like, tiny creators or small creators
or, like, small indiecreators, but, like, that series
had like, Paul Jenkins on itand Trina Robbins and like Lee Cosi
and all of these people who,like, had names.

(53:32):
Actually, I don't.
I think he was on the Cthulhu book.
I don't even remember who wasin that first book.
But it was, it was big enoughto like, that we had a thousand backers
and we made like 30 grand.
And like, that's.
No, we made like 39 grand,almost 40 grand.
And I was like, wow, what just happened?

(53:52):
Like, I, I now had a careerbecause now I had like two, three
successful books and it allcame from the same.
And then I went back and I.
Now I had like thousands ofbuyers that were buying from me every
year.
And like, they were seeingthe, the, the, like, the quality
of the work that I was putting out.

(54:13):
And so they kept rebuying andrebuying and rebuying and rebuying
and like, it just like.
But it started with that ideaof like, I am willing to endure pain.
I am willing to, like, talktruth to people.
I am willing to set deadlinesand do all of, like, the grunt work.

(54:36):
And over time, first of all,if you're just willing to do that,
like, you will, like, that is.
That is what it takes to run a conference.
What takes to run a virtual conference.
That's what takes to run a podcast.
Like, are you willing to runthe podcast?
Because if you're willing torun the podcast, like, people will

(54:57):
be on your podcast becausethey like to talk and have things
to promote.
So, like, you end up.
And then you use that to getbigger and bigger and bigger quality
of.
I.
I don't like the word quality,but like, the bigger and bigger audience.
Audience guess.
And then it startsmatriculating on each other and that's
how you're building the arbitrage.

(55:17):
Because I had a 200 personpot, 200 episode podcast.
And that's what we did.
We were like, oh, by the end Iwas like, able to email anyone and
they were like, oh, yeah, Ilike your podcast.
That has a nice point of view.
And I was like, thank you.
I know, be on it.
And like, it worked becauseall they had to do is show up and
they knew it was going to begood and they weren't going to waste

(55:39):
their time.
Yeah, I think the biggestthing that we're discussing here
is the network effect andbeing willing to experiment with
things because you didn't knowthat this anthology was going to
help you raise $40,000 yoursecond time.
Like, it's just something thatyou have to try.

(55:59):
Yeah.
I think that it's like thisgoes back to what we talked about
before.
It's like there are thingsthat you can do which will increase
your audience size.
Like, if you have no audienceand no one's giving you paying attention
to you, like, maybe do ananthology, Maybe start a podcast.
My podcast, my goal was very simple.

(56:22):
I wanted to interview the bestcreators in the world, figure out
all of their secrets, and thendo them.
Like, it was a very, very,very simple concept, and it worked
beautifully over the first.
Like, my career was made bystrategies I found in that podcast
still that I use today, like,10 years, almost 10 years later.

(56:43):
But, yeah, like, I think youhave to say.
Well, I.
I think you have to be willingto say, I don't know.
Like, I don't know.
Did I think I would enjoy,like, negotiating contracts?
No, I didn't think there wouldbe a skill that I particularly enjoyed,

(57:04):
but I like it.
I don't like creatingcontracts, but I like negotiating
contracts.
I don't necessarily find themfun, but I find them stimulating.
Like, you might do somethingand say.
Not only say, but say, oh, myGod, I love this.
Or, like, I used to do bookmarketing for people and I hated

(57:24):
it.
But I'm so good at it.
I'm so good at it.
I'm so good at doing the thingthat I did that, like, people have
paid me for it for, like, adecade almost.
And just, like, there arethings that you so, like, there are
things that you do that, like,you'll love, that you don't have
any idea you love.
And there are things that youtry, that you love.

(57:45):
And you'd be like, oh, I hated that.
What's going to happen now?
I'm going to hate everything I try.
And then you just, like, haveto keep at it, trying it.
There's a great quote by JimCroce, who said he's.
I'm gonna.
I'm gonna bastardize it.
But it was basically like,record executive records were better

(58:10):
when A and R people didn't runthe labels because you would go in
and you would talk to the owner.
And, like, I mean, I say,like, Jim Croce did not understand
the privilege that he had as awhite male, like, saying this, like,
thing.
But, like, the point that Ireally took out of it was like.

(58:33):
Like, the records were betterwhen you would walk into the owner's
thing and they would listen toa record and be like, I don't know,
like, let's throw it out thereand see what happens.
And, like, I don't know.
I'm not, like, a record guy.
I don't know.
Like, these were people who,like, made, like, who, like, owned
slaughterhouses, and theysuddenly, like, owned a record label.

(58:55):
I don't know.
Like, what do I know about music?
But then there's a.
Then people who knew music, AR guys, young guys, started to come
in and be like, oh, this iswhat's hip.
This is what people want.
And, like, suddenly they'relike, massage.
They're, like, making a boxof, like, what could be.

(59:16):
And while it takes a wildamount of privilege to say that,
like, making music was betterin the 60s and 70s, I do like that
idea of, like, yeah, like,what do I know?
And so when I.
I have a podcast called theSix Figure Author Experiment, and
I.

(59:37):
My.
My co host is like, what is fun?
Like, some of us can't alwaysdo the fun thing.
We have to do the thing.
Like, some of us have to workat McDonald's and burn in the.
And the night shift and, like,for no pay and, like, burn our hands
and be miserable the whole time.
Unless you love McDonald's,and then, congratulations, like,
you had the job of your life.

(59:58):
Do it.
You're loving it.
But you.
You have to try the thingsthat are fun.
But she doesn't say, do thethings that are fun.
She says, what sounds fun toyou, which is.

(01:00:20):
Which sounds the same, but itis not.
Because if you look for thingsthat sound fun, they might not be
fun.
They might be horrible.
Like, but if you look forthings that sound fun or that you.
That might interest you orsomething that's like, well, I don't.

(01:00:40):
I want to sign this contract,but I probably need to know what
it says first, right?
Like, this is a wild thing tosay to creators.
But, like, if you.
If you have a contract infront of you, you should know what
you're signing and what you'resigning away before you sign it.

(01:01:01):
And because that was myphilosophy, when contracts would
come, I would read them.
I would ask my manager at thetime, I would ask my agent, like,
what does this mean?
Is this a good deal?
And they're like, no, becauselook at this clause.
I started to be like, oh, yeah.
Like, there's all these, like,things that you can look.
That you can now look for.

(01:01:22):
Be like, oh, this is crap.
This is like that.
Like, and you could just seethem at a glance.
It's like the old MLE crew andthe brown M&M's.
You know, they get, like,talked about.
Like, MLE crew would not do a concert.
If, like the Brown M and M'sand it's like.
But the reason they did it isbecause if there were brown M and

(01:01:43):
M's in the bowl, it meant theydidn't read the contract close enough.
It didn't.
Like they weren't going tofollow all of the fire hazards, but
then they can see it in one second.
So there's things you can dowhen you see a contract to be like,
this company is just going todick me around.
No, thank you, I'm out.

(01:02:04):
But if you want the publishingdeal, you have to know how to read
the publishing contract oryou're going to sign a contract that
is going to sign away too much away.
And so sometimes in order toget the fun thing, you have to do
things to get there.
And so it's not only do what'sfun, but it should maybe be pursue

(01:02:25):
what sounds fun until youreach an impediment that is no longer
fun and you do not want to getover that block.
Interesting perspective.
I've never heard that take before.
But obviously we won't knowwhat's fun until we do it.
So obviously we can try abunch of different things and get

(01:02:45):
to that fun place and discoverorganically, even something.
If we're just talking aboutsocial media, just trying something.
Oh, I didn't like it.
You know, it sounds like it'sfun to make a TikTok, but if you
don't like speaking to thecamera, obviously that's not gonna
work.
Or.
But then you can be like,well, what would be fun about TikTok?
Well, like, maybe I make bird calls.

(01:03:07):
I like bird calls.
Like, I want to makemarionettes, like, whatever that
thing is.
And then you can just pursuethat on TikTok and maybe it will
work, maybe it won't work.
I don't know what is a good ora bad idea.
My friend Jamie, she became a,like, cosplayer on TikTok, which

(01:03:28):
I even know was a thing, but,like, it was.
And it combined her love ofcostume design and her love of acting
and her love of the thingsthat she cosplays in.
And it was like such abeautiful, like, meld of those things.
But, like, she didn't go inthere doing TikTok dances.

(01:03:50):
Or maybe she did, buteventually she was like, well, what
would be fun to me, oh, I seethis thing over on TikTok.
I could do that.
And then they pursued it andit worked, and it worked and it worked.
And suddenly, like, now theyhave a career.
I think I Don't know.
It's at least one of thethings that they do consistently.
Yeah, just be willing to throwyourself out there and try things

(01:04:14):
because they sound fun untilyou realize it may or may not work.
And if it doesn't work, thenunless you're super passionate about
that thing, you need to justlet go of it.
Well, and I think you have toalso, because, like, I interviewed
Marv Wolfman, he's a friend ofmine, and Marv said in our interview,
you have to be willing to jumpoff a burning bridge.

(01:04:38):
Which is like, not exactlywhat he said, but the idea is like,
he's.
He.
He created the Teen Titans andthen comics were dried up and he
started doing movies, and thenhe started doing animation, and then
he started doing video games.
And he.
At every stage he was able tosay, oh, I'm not okay.
I don't want to do this anymore.
Or the industry is not.

(01:04:59):
But, like, what he wanted todo was right.
So he just like, okay, whatelse can I write?
Like, I don't know, like,Batman, Brave and the Bold is pretty
much a Batman comics.
Like, maybe I can do that thing.
And like, so, like.
But, like, things will dry upfor you and because of you, and you

(01:05:20):
will lose interest and thenyou'll gain interest back and you'll
find some other interest.
And like, that's, I think, thecreative work.
Like, if you told me 10 yearsago I would draw my own comic and
also, like, run a conference,I'd be like, that's ridiculous.
Career.
Like, who has that career?

(01:05:40):
But, like, I don't know, like, I.
People kept saying a thingthat sounded fun to the point that
it, like, drilled into my brain.
And I mean, is it aparticularly good comic?
It's not well drawn.
But, like, people seem to likeit and like, I don't know, like,

(01:06:02):
it's nice to have it out inthe world.
I think so many people, inlieu of doing a thing, they sit on
that thing for years andSuddenly, like, to 10 years later,
I have 7,000 projects,whatever it is, and like, they have
two.
Because, like, it takes youbeing like, oh, I'm going to write

(01:06:25):
novels, I'm going to writethis, I'm going to do this.
I'm going to do this.
I'm going to, like, become a painter.
I'm going to, like, own a conference.
I'm going to, like, whatever Ihave to do to keep pushing forward.
I'm going to do.
And I think, like, we shouldtry to make the best thing that we

(01:06:50):
can with, at every.
At any moment.
So, like, I get so manycompliments on this art.
This art that, like, I didn'tthink was very good when I made it
until people started buying itand I was like, weird.

(01:07:11):
Like, this is just a joke.
It's a joke.
Guys like, like.
And then, like, they just keptbuying it to the point that I was
like, well, maybe I shoulddraw a book.
I don't know.
Like, I'd love to know how todraw a comic.
And so, like, but, like, I didnot go to art school.
But, like, I am a professional artist.
I have it on my resumebecause, like, I did sell art.

(01:07:33):
I've sold art in my life.
I've been commissioned to make art.
Like, I've done these weirdthings in my career because, like,
the, I started painting theart because I needed more things
to sell at my table.
So it's like, necessity.
And I liked it and so I keptdoing it.

(01:07:55):
And I would spend days justlike painting at the table, like,
just to fill up my table space.
And that became like a hugeseller at my booth.
And those, these things, somepart of that allowed me to do booze
for longer, for long enoughthat I.
For me to have enough comicsand enough books that I could fill

(01:08:17):
my table with other things.
But like, so, like, sometimesyou, you do these.
Like, I did not think I wouldhave a 200 episode podcast.
Podcast.
I definitely did not think Iwould have three or four podcasts
that I've done in my careerthat all last like, more than 25
episodes.
Like, I'm not a podcaster.
Like, I, I've said like,probably a hundred times in this.

(01:08:41):
I'm not very good at, like,not taking out Oz and ums.
I didn't do Toastmasters, but,like, I have somehow done hundreds
of these things.
And it started by me saying,well, I don't know how to build a
creative career, but BenTemplesmith does.

(01:09:04):
And so how do I interview Ben Templesmith?
Literally was what happened?
I was sitting in front of BenTemplesmith table, who drew 30 days
of night.
He's one of the premier horrorartists in the world.
And I was, I was like, I can'tsit with you for like an hour and
just like, ask you all of the questions.
Then someone come up and askhim to be on a podcast.

(01:09:25):
And he's like, yes.
I was like, oh, well, like, islike, like the thing I wanted to
do was have an interview withBen Templesmith Functionally, the
thing that the podcast got methere, like, it's the easiest path
to get to.
Like the interview with Ben Templesmith.

(01:09:45):
It took two years to do that.
But, like, it was like, it was.
This was 2016, I think, whenwe launched it.
So it was quite a while ago.
But, like, the function, I.
I wanted the function of likeinterviewing all of these people
so that I could have theknowledge, so that I could actually
have basically like 200 one onone mentoring sessions.

(01:10:08):
And like, then I could like,cobble together all of the things
that worked.
So like, sometimes, like,you'll see an impediment, but, like,
really you just have to belike, oh, well, this is like, if
you turn the axis a little,you go, okay.

(01:10:29):
Like, I see the.
I see the path forward now,but it does come from, I think, a
lot of flexible.
Like, I think your brain hasto be pretty elastic and you have
to be pretty bendable a lot,especially at the beginning of your
career.

(01:10:50):
Yeah, I think one of myfavorite things to do is just experiment
and see what works, becauseotherwise you're just shooting the
dark.
You can follow other people,but some of those things will work,
some of those won't.
And it's only until you findthe thing that works for you, because
everyone is different.
So I could try to follow youranthology, but if I don't write good
horror, it's not going to workfor me.

(01:11:11):
Right, Right.
Yeah.
I think that there's a seed, though.
It's like, be the fulcrum bywhich a group grows.
And then once you grow, oncesomeone grows, they'll pull you up
when you grow, when you, whenyou meet, when you grow, you pull

(01:11:32):
them up and then all of youguys are growing in this, like, bigger
and bigger and bigger.
Or like, like it helps youbend reality more.
And so it doesn't matter whatit is, but like having some sort
of focused mission where agroup of people all together are

(01:11:53):
doing a thing where you arethe focal point.
So you are getting an.
You're also doing outmoded work.
So it's like, it's not likedoing an anthology was like a hundred
times more at work than doingbeing in an anthology.
So it's not like you're doingoutmoded work.
And to get.
You're.
You're getting outmoded returnand then not doing outmoded work.

(01:12:14):
Like, you're doing theoutmoded work to be the.
Like to push on the membranethe hardest to pop everyone through.
But if you can figure out away to do that in whatever way you
can.
Like, you are go.
It's so much easier to putpush together with 10 people than
it is to push by yourself.

(01:12:36):
And usually the reason why youcan't get to the next level is one,
because you're not eventrying, but two, because you just
don't have enough momentum.
And so what these other peopledo is they help bring you momentum.
They keep bringing otherpeople to look in your direction,

(01:12:59):
to look at what you're doing.
Those people also got like,read by thousands of people, like
tens of thousands of people atthis point in those anthologies probably.
So, like, they're, they'regetting like a return throughout
the whole thing, and they'remotivated to have you get to the
next level because you'regoing to pull them up and you're

(01:13:20):
going to like, give them thisaccess and you're going to be able
to report, report back how todo it to them and so that they can
do it for you.
And it doesn't matter as much.
That's why I was like, virtualconference, community event.
Like, whatever it is, itdoesn't matter.
But like, every time you doit, you become the person who did

(01:13:42):
it.
And like, then the next onebecomes easier.
And at this point, like, Ihave a huge network of people who
know that I've done a lot ofthese things successfully and not
always, like, sometimes you fail.
But like, that is like, it's.
It's not about the anthology.
Like, as you said, it's notabout the, like the, the podcast.

(01:14:06):
It's not about the.
It's not about the community event.
It's about that.
Like, Germ of a Nexus.
Just the same thing as like a.
That the reason why you wantto do a signature series is because
when you are put on abookshelf and the, the.

(01:14:26):
For the more of a bookshelf istaken up by your work, the more likely
someone's eye is to find it.
And it's like, well, this isthe kernel of the idea, right?
It's like, this is the.
You want to have more space.
You want people to read onebook and, and now they read 10 books

(01:14:47):
and you make 10 times the money.
Like, that is the.
Like, I don't care if youwrite a signature series or you have
an art piece or like, you do a.
Whatever you, you make a.
You make like a big oldsculpture that like sits in the middle
of something.
I don't, I don't know what.
But the kernel is when someonelooks at this thing, I guarantee

(01:15:08):
you they're not Looking atthis book or like, this book, because,
like, it's just that, like,moves the eye.
Like, the eye will go to thething that has the most energy behind
it.
So.
Yeah.
I mean, and I think we spendso much time looking at what people

(01:15:29):
that do our exact thing havedone that we miss the kernel.
We in movies and tv, they havea thing that's like, every time someone
opens a window and getsthrough, they close that window and
seal it shut.
So it's like no one else isgetting through that way.

(01:15:49):
There's a billion openwindows, but you can't get through
this one because someone elsealready did.
Yeah.
It's about taking that andmaking it your own thing.
Because everybody's situationis obviously different.
The people you know are different.
The stuff you're doing is different.
It's just learning the basicprinciple, the main principle of

(01:16:14):
the lesson you should belearning and applying it in a way
that makes sense for you.
Yeah.
And on top of that, it's thatno one's doing it.
No one does it.
Like, I swear to you, like, golook at your.
Go look at your friend list.
How many people can youactually say legitimately right now
are doing anything that iseven remotely like anything we've

(01:16:35):
talked about today?
It's going to be.
It's probably very small.
I have a very large friendlist and still less than 10% of them,
probably less than 1% of themare doing any of this stuff.
It's like, even at the highestlevels, people are not doing it.
They're not.
They're not thinking in this way.

(01:16:56):
And if you just think in thisway, like, people would rather people.
Everyone has the idea to doit, but if you just say I'm doing
it, suddenly the magnet startspulling towards you.
Yeah.
Be willing to put yourself outthere and be the focal point and
bring people together, Ithink, is obviously one of the biggest

(01:17:20):
lessons that you've learned.
So just as long as you'rewilling to do that, you have the
potential to have that thingbe successful just because, you know,
working at this together.
Yeah.
And, like, honestly, like,just give it all away.
Whatever.
Like, if someone gives you anyresistance, just, like, give all

(01:17:42):
the things away because, like,they're not going to buy it anyway.
Like, the people that aregoing to buy it and care aren't going
to care that someone elsereads it, it or someone else consumes
it as well.
Like, I.
I have so many people thatlike kids.
I'm like.
Like teenagers who.
I've given our, like, ourbooks away too.

(01:18:03):
And they're just like, what?
I'm like, yeah.
Like, I don't.
Like, I just want you to readit, man.
I just want you to have it.
Like, go for it.
Like, if I have knowledge, Iwill give it to anyone that asks
because no one is you going touse it.
No one will do it.
So, like, what does it matterif I give it away?

(01:18:23):
First of all, I'm already past it.
And second of all, like,you're not going to use it.
So, like, I might as well giveit away because then Maybe, maybe
the 1 of 10,000 people will do it.
So, like, like, you are not.
Like, you are amplifyingyourself by being generous and by

(01:18:46):
being strategically helpfuland by finding people that like,
like, are on your same wavelength.
It's not even about doing thesame stuff as you either.
It's about, like, resonatingon the same wavelength of weird.
It just so happens that, like,hey, if you've written 40 novels

(01:19:07):
or, like, been doing this fora long time, like, we probably resonate
on some level at the same frequency.
We probably have some basis tohang out.
And maybe when we hang out, I'll.
We'll figure out somethingthat we can do together that sounds
fun.
And, like, then we can use ourcomplementary and other talents to,

(01:19:30):
like, not.
But, like, I am starting tothink pretty exclusively in strategic
partnerships.
Just, like, how can I workwith you on something?
Like, how can I have you.
How can we be more together asopposed to, like, how can I alone
wolf it?
Because, like, lone wolves are sick.

(01:19:51):
That's why they're lone.
Usually wolves are together.
They're in a pack.
That's how.
Despite what.
What every single movie and TVshow and book tells you, wolves operate
in packs when they arehealthy, they do not when they are
not healthy, and when they areold or when they are.

(01:20:13):
When they cannot handle pack dynamics.
And usually pretty soon aftera wolf goes off on his own, he dies.
Because we exist in packs.
There's a reason that pack,that wolves hunt together.
There's a reason why we workbetter together.

(01:20:35):
There's a reason why the lonewolf is a myth.
Yeah.
The alpha wolf myth is soprevalent, and there's no way to
get back from it now.
So it's an interesting topicin itself, I think.
Yeah, absolutely.
Cool.
I have a few more questions left.

(01:20:56):
I don't want to keep you too long.
Do you know anyone personallywho also runs a standout creative
business?
I'm sure you do, because you're.
You're out there prolifically,so maybe Name your favorite person
that you worked with recentlyand how they kind of stand out from
the crowd.
Oh, my God, this is so hard.
All right, so I'm gonna sayReese, I'm gonna take your recent

(01:21:20):
thing, which.
Which takes out my businesspartner, Monica Lionel, who's amazing,
and my podcast co host.
My podcast co host, LeeSavino, who is also amazing.
I'm trying to find.
Think of the most recentpartnership that I've done that,

(01:21:42):
you know, I'm just going to gowith Lee.
Like, Lee Savino, we have apodcast called the Six Figure Author
Experiment.
She is always game for anything.
Like, she writes Alpha shifterromance, kind of like Mafia paranormal
books.
She's been, like, obscenely successful.

(01:22:02):
She was our closing speaker atour conference this year.
And I.
I went to our conference as a.
I wanted to do this podcast.
I had this germ of an idea.
I've been.
Had it for a couple of years,and I was looking for a co host.

(01:22:26):
I kind of like.
I like going to conferences.
Kind of like, plan serendipity.
Have a.
Have a plan, but, like, let it flow.
It was like the last day, andLee was just sit.
I was sitting, talking tosomebody, and then I was just.
And then they left and I waslike, sitting and like, Lee came
out and we got to talking, andI was like, I have this really weird
idea.
And she's like, I love it.

(01:22:47):
Let's do it.
And like, a month later, we were.
We had like 10 episodes ofthis podcast that we had recorded,
and it's like molded andchanged, and it's just like, I love
that.
I love when somebody justknows what a them project is.

(01:23:09):
And Lee is like, so.
So we've worked on a bunch ofprojects together now or a few projects
together, and all of thepeople that I really resonate with
have that same.
I did a book with S.K.
prince earlier this year.
She was the same way.
Our conference directors, Meland Todger, are, like, always the

(01:23:31):
same way.
They have this habit of, like,catching opportunity and, like, redirecting
it in a productive way that,like, makes them go, yes, I want
this part.
And it might not be the wholething, but they are very good at
saying, like, it's.

(01:23:52):
So it's.
It's pretty easy to do that,to say yes to things when no one
wants you.
So, like, eventually you'll bein your career and people will be
like, no, no, no, no, no, no.
And then you'll get, like, one yes.
And it'll be a thing you maynot even want to do, but you'll be
like, yes, just like,recognize me.

(01:24:16):
And then you start getting abunch of yeses over time and you're
like, I don't know, I'mgetting exhausted.
I'm just gonna stop doingeverything that's not a hell yes.
And we all, we've all heardthat, right?
That's pretty bad advice forsomeone who get.
That's getting nothing but no's.
You kind of like, gotta takesome, some awkward yeses until you

(01:24:39):
don't have.
Until you're getting all yeses.
But then over time, everythingbecomes a hell yes.
Like, everyone you know isdoing interesting things and collaborating
interesting ways and wants towork with you and everyone.
Like, all of your best friendsare like, your favorite creators
too.
So, like, you're like, oh my God.
Like, yes.
And so, like, the question is,like, how do you get to the next

(01:25:02):
level and be like.
Like, I don't even know how to say.
Like, I'm in this place nowwhere I'm like, everything.
I want to do everything.
I want to do everything that people.
Because, like, they all seemso neat and interesting.
And I love, like, people thatcan, like, parse that thing and,
like, have found a way throughthat without burning out.

(01:25:26):
And I think, like, Lee, that'swhat we talk about all the time on
our podcast.
Like, we are very much justlike chaotic neutral humans or hopefully
chaotic good humans that,like, just kind of get together and
good things happen.
Like, and I, I really appreciate.
I.
I think a big part ofcreativity is going back to, to being

(01:25:52):
a child, having that childlike wonder.
Now, it's not maintaining yourchildlike wonder forever.
That is a little part of it.
But I do think it's importantto get the mastery.
Like, you have to get thepieces of being an adult and being

(01:26:12):
a master, and then you have toshed them all to be a child, to,
like, to have that childlikewonder again.
Because otherwise, you know,look, I love children.
My niece made the mostbeautiful watercolor to me.
I don't think that otherpeople are going to think it's as
beautiful because, like,technically it's a stick figure.

(01:26:40):
But, like, I personally love it.
So you have to, I, on somelevel maintain a piece of that, that
childlike wonder, but somehowget to the top of the mountaintop
to become like, like, it'shard to know business without losing
some of your childlike wonder.
Just is like, business is boring.
Like, it's like it's lookingat P&LS and like, looking at data

(01:27:03):
spreadsheets and like, beingon meetings where you're talking
about how the revenueprojections are going.
And, like, it's not childlikein any way.
So, like, if you.
But if you can maintain, like,a spark of that childlike wonder
as you grow and then somehowshed it all back to become that childlike
wonder again, like, I think,like, that is where.
Like, that is like my happy place.

(01:27:25):
That is where I'm trying to.
To get back to that childlikewonder more.
That's a very difficult task,I think, because you need to balance
both in a way that works allthe time.
Right.
You have to figure out when touse certain things and when to know
when to do things.

(01:27:45):
Absolutely.
What is one extraordinarybook, podcast, documentary or tool
that has made the biggestimpact on you?
Okay, so in the past year, thebook that made the most impact was
called the Perfectionist Guideto Losing Control.
I read it on a whim.
It happened to be available onLibby, and it blew my mind because

(01:28:09):
I have for my whole life beentold that perfectionism is bad.
And this is the first time inmy life that I was told it's not
perfectionism that is bad.
It is the fact that you arefueling your perfectionism with punishment
instead of radical compassion.

(01:28:30):
And if you took the energyfrom punishment to radical compassion,
radical self compassionspecifically, then your perfectionism
would be like a boon.
And I am 40 years old.
I'd never heard anyone tell methat perfectionist was anything but

(01:28:50):
bad before.
And so that is the.
That I'm literally still blownaway even every time I say it.
Well, yeah.
How do we turn something thatwe all, as a society view as a fault
and turn it into somethingthat can work for us instead of against
us?
And normally we don't do that.

(01:29:12):
Normally we just accept things.
Well, and I think that, like,as a creator, we are prone to perfectionism
because, like, we want our artto be perfect.
We want it to say the exactthing that we want.
We want that.
We get upset when it doesn'tdo the.
The canvas doesn't do thething that we want, or the.
The words don't come across inthe way that we want.
Like, we have to.
We're.

(01:29:32):
We.
You're prone to this thing.
And so it's like, how can yoube artistic and fuel that, like,
need to be to that need for specificity?
Like, I love that Wickedmovie, but I love it because, like,
it is so specific.
Like, the, like, the choicesthat they made are, like, so very,
very, very detail oriented.

(01:29:54):
Like, it is.
It is the perfectionism ofJohn Chu that, like, that like, made
it the thing that it is.
And it's like, so that is not bad.
It's just like, we have tofind ways.
A lot of this is about fuel, right?
It's like, well, how are wefueling our creativity?

(01:30:15):
A lot of people start byfueling their creativity with spite.
Because, like, someone's like,you can't do it.
And you're like, screw you,I'm doing it anyway.
And so you so, like.
But, like, spite burns hot,but it does not burn clean.
So you start to, like, get,like, black and tarry, and it stops

(01:30:37):
feeling good.
And then so, like, all of whatwe're trying to do is, like, feed
the.
Like, how do I stay true tothe art without, like, burning myself
out?
And it's really hard when abig part of your art is fueled by
perfectionism, some level of perfectionism.

(01:31:00):
So specifically for creators,I think there's a lot of people who
can be sloppy.
I think creators are sloppy ina lot of parts of their life, but
I do not think creators ingeneral are sloppy with the art that
they try to create becausethey are trying to elicit a specific
reaction with it.
Usually.

(01:31:21):
Yeah.
Makes a lot of sense.
What do you think makes acreative business stand out?
And what is one piece ofadvice based on your journey that
would help other creativebusinesses stand out?
Okay, I just said most of myadvice over the course of this.
Yeah, of course, in this talk.
But.

(01:31:41):
So people hate branding.
I don't know why they hatebranding, but they hate two things.
They hate branding and theyhate marketing.
And I find it really sillybecause do you know the number one
way to do less marketing?
It's to get a brand that is killer.

(01:32:03):
So that every per.
Every person that comes toyour website or your page goes, I
love it.
I'm there.
And so, like, if you want todo less marketing, if you want to
have to be less places, like,a good business has incredible and
specific branding that lets you.

(01:32:25):
Lets you imagine who they areand lets you know who.
Who they're talking to theminute that they hit.
The minute that they hit theirwebpage or come in interaction.
Branding is spe.
Branding speaks for you whenyou can't speak for yourself.
So I think that a great brand,I think a great brand only exists

(01:32:48):
when you understand who youraudience is and what you're trying
to sell, which is.
But like, it express.
It's not enough to only do that.
You then have to express it outward.
If you don't want to do abillion hours of marketing.
How would you Describe your brand.

(01:33:09):
So I'm going to just turn thisfor a second just so other people
can see it.
So our brand is forrebellious, creative people who are
practical and also are nononsense, that do that go against
authority and who want togenerally laugh at the absurdity

(01:33:33):
of the universe.
So I don't do demographic branding.
I do psychographic branding,which is the internal factors.
We have fans from 8 to 8, 80,and they all kind of have that rebellious
spirit they all have.
They're also generally very weird.

(01:33:59):
The weirder the better.
Honestly, like non fiction, wetend to, like, attract people that
are willing to open to new experiences.
And even for my.
Are non fiction.
Like, I just did an emailseries about, like, bending reality
and how it's like being a mage.

(01:34:21):
And I'm like, a very specifickind of person is willing to take
that journey.
And, like, I think 100999 outof a hundred out of a thousand people
will, like, be like, that'snot making freaking sense.
Please stop.
Please stop.
But, like, we are verymagnetizing to, like, a person.

(01:34:45):
Person who enjoys, like,absurdism and enjoys thinking about
these things that are hard,like capitalism, without, like, taking
it too seriously.
Yeah.
Once you know that, like,that's so specific that you're not

(01:35:08):
going to try to reach somebodythat's outside of that range because
you know that they're notgoing to get it.
So you want the people thatget it.
Yeah, but I also think I.
We have to be broadly.
You.
You don't have to be broadlyappealing, but you have to be broad
in where you're in scope.
Right.
Because, like, you have toreach a lot of people with the knowledge

(01:35:31):
that most of them are going tothink you're weirdo and run away
from you so that, like, a fewpeople are, like, no, this.
These.
This is the God.
Like, this.
These are the ones.
And that is the opposite ofthe other thing we talked about where,
like, you're just broadlyappealing to everyone.
And, like, that's a better.
If money is your end, that isa better choice.

(01:35:55):
Be broadly appealing to anyone.
But if money is the means,like, you should be very specific.
But still, I'm not sure theactions are that different from,
like, you still want to be onas many podcasts as possible.
You still want to, like, beout there.
You still want to, like, have your.
You still want to have amailing list.
It's just like, maybe it'seven more important for you to, like,

(01:36:19):
be broadly appealing from theother person because they brought
the broadly appealing person.
Can Always find the market.
You have a harder time findingthe market because if you're not
constantly doing this work.
Yeah, it's.
It's a hard thing to balancebeing as broad as possible while
also talking to somebody specifically.

(01:36:41):
But until you find a giantaudience, you're not going to find
that person because they'resomewhere else.
You know, you need to.
But this is what.
But this is why Wicked is so amazing.
Because it has incredible specificity.
I don't know if I've ever seena movie with the kind of specificity
that Wicked has.
And it is all.
It is because of that, that itis broadly appealing.

(01:37:02):
Like, the choices thatspecifically Ariana Grande make in
that movie are like, everycamera, motion, every word, everything
is so specific and it is so weird.
Like, they're like, like.
And yet it is so broadlyappealing, which is what it goes
back to.
The thing that we're like.

(01:37:22):
You can be both, it's justharder to be both.
My friend Dave Baker, he'sbeen in this business as long or
longer than I have, andeveryone was like, he had a book
called Action Hospital, whichwas like, great, I love Action Hospital.
No one read it.
It was so weird.
But his new book, Mary TylerMoorhawk, because he's had a bunch

(01:37:44):
of hits, people were more opento this new book that is just as
weird as the Action Hospital book.
But, like, he was able to,like, have people have a more open
mind to it.
Now, John Chu did that withthe dancing movie that he did.
He wouldn't be able to dothese moves Wicked if he hadn't done

(01:38:06):
the steps to get there.
Right.
Exactly.
And a lot of times that iswhat you need to do.
A lot of times it's like,well, maybe you need to play the
game so that people are.
See people come to your work.
And a book, like, alreadyknowing if they will like it or not.
Mostly.
Mostly.
Not always.
But like most pe.

(01:38:27):
Like, if they know that DaveBaker makes good books, which he
does and he made, he makesgreat books, then they're willing
to try to open his weird book.
It's like, which is like ameta narrative on culture.
Like, and.
And take that, that, thatjourney with him.
But like, if you don't know,oh, it's all going to be okay.

(01:38:51):
Like, Dave already has allthese stories.
He knows what he's doing.
You're going to see this weirdstuff and be like, I don't know if
I'm going to like it.
I'm just going to put it away.
So sometimes to make.
To get our like, weird thing made.
We have to make peoplereceptive to hearing that message,
which means we have to do,like, more.

(01:39:13):
We have to show people whatthe ride's gonna look like.
It's like the only reasonpeople enjoy roller coasters is because
they know they're gonna liveat the end.
So it allows them to releasetheir inhibition and embrace their
fear.
Just like horror movies.
Right?
So it's like, it's thestructure, it's the knowledge, it's
the, it's the long termstability of somebody.

(01:39:35):
It's seeing people's namesbefore that makes them, it's being
and, and, and, and broadlybeing able to pull from so many places
that gives people the abilityto join the journey in, like, the
thing you actually want toshow them.

(01:39:55):
Sometimes you have to spendyears showing people what they want,
what they think they want,before you can like, actually show
them what they, what you'reactually trying to do.
Yeah.
If you're willing to put upwith that journey, I think that end
result is ultimately whatevery creative person is looking
for, is that.

(01:40:15):
But first to do that, you haveto get enough appeal to be able to
do that.
Because no one's going to gointo that, that weird thing in the
beginning and say, like, oh,this is amazing because.
Right.
It's too out there.
Well, you know, I was doingthe, the Kickstarter stuff for years
before Monica released our getyour book selling on Kickstarter.

(01:40:37):
And everyone laughed at me.
Everyone's like, kickstarterdoesn't isn't anything.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no,no, I'm not doing it.
And suddenly we had a campaignand Monica was like, no, I like it.
And then we raised like$25,000 or $20,000 for it.
And people were like, oh, thesame people who were making fun of
me literally six months beforesuddenly are like, oh, there's something

(01:41:00):
to do here.
But I needed Monica and I told her.
I was like, monica, I need youto like, validate this idea.
Otherwise no one, like, itneeds somebody to validate it who,
like, people trust.
And she was like, I don't knowif that's true.
And later she's like, youreally are right.
And six months later, BrandonSandstone had that campaign.

(01:41:22):
We had a monster 2022 and westarted working together because,
like, but like, it took Monicasaying, guys, if you trust my taste,
I think there's something herewhich opened people up to the possibility
that like, oh, there'ssomething here.
It was.
That's not the, it's the same information.

(01:41:44):
It's the same information I'dalways given.
But people, the people came toit receptive.
It's all about trust, I think,because if they don't know you, they're
not going to trust you.
You just sound weird.
But once they trust you,they're willing to.
To see.
Right.
See for them for sure.
Absolutely.
Can you give the listeners achallenge that they can take action

(01:42:07):
on right now?
Ooh, I do, because I just, Ijust put one up today.
So this is my challenge to everyone.
Take something you haveposted, made, created something that
you've made more than one yearago and repost it without telling

(01:42:28):
anyone that you did it, thatyou've done it before, and just see
what the reaction is.
Because most likely you willget the same or better reaction than
you got and no one will evenremember that you made it.
Maybe one or two people willremember that you made it.

(01:42:48):
But we release books that havebeen, like, released before.
We put chapters in our booksthat have been there before.
Very few people complainbecause people actually want to see
the thing.
Like, have you ever seen a meme?
Memes are popular.
You could see a meme athousand times over 10 years.
But like, in our own work, we.

(01:43:10):
We don't do it.
Yeah, most people have notseen the thing.
Especially if you're growingthe audience like you did exponentially.
Odds are if you did it a yearago, no one is going to know that
you already did it unlessthey're looking through all your
stuff.
Absolutely.
And every time we bring up thesame topics, people are like, oh,

(01:43:30):
I forgot about that.
Thank you so much for talkingabout it.
And it's like, well, just,yeah, you could go back and read
the book, but they won'tbecause everyone is so.
Everyone is on a trajectorythat, like, is forward thinking.
They don't go back and rereadthe things or they don't want to
find the things again.
A lot of times you readsomething and be like, oh, they don't
go back and read that book.

(01:43:51):
But it'll take seeing it again.
So you can.
The only caveat to this is youcannot tell people that you did it
before.
You just have to do it.
Awesome.
Well, Russell has been reallyamazing talking to you.
I think you've provided somuch value for people, especially
with your creative journey.

(01:44:11):
And just a bunch of thoughtson that.
Can you let people know wherethey can keep up with you?
Sure.
So I have a blog called theAuthor Stack, which talks all about
these kind of tactics andtricks, even though a lot of it's
just two writers.
It's expanded.
I mean you can use this otherstrategies but it's@theauthorstack.com

(01:44:33):
that's probably the best way.
I also have a book called howto build your creative career that
I did a while ago which is good.
Like a general broad.
It talks about all creativity.
Yeah.
And then Writer MBA is our conference.
It's in New Orleans.
It's very fun.
It's in March.
You guys should all come.
It's going to be a blast.
And you also offer a free bookthat people can download.

(01:44:54):
Oh yeah.
I mean a bunch of free books.
I don't even know which bookyou're talking about.
Whatever the one is on yourlanding page right now.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Whatever the one is there,that's the one we do.
We offer that book.
Yeah, it cycles too.
I mean when you've got 40 or50 books on a topic, it's like it
always is cycling.
But yes, we do offer and ifyou join the author stack, you get

(01:45:18):
a couple of free books as well.
I think you get a book ebookcalled how to.
It's called how to the secretof making a living as a self published
author.
And then another one which islike how to get a book publishing
deal.
So either way you want to goabout it, you get something awesome.
Well, yeah.
Thanks again Russell.
It's been awesome.

(01:45:39):
Thanks for having me.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}8: Creative Career Success: How Self-Published Authors and Creatives Can Build a Thriving Business with Russell Nohelty