October 10, 2025 • 36 mins
You ever get that gut feeling to do something wild — the kind that makes zero sense on paper but just feels right?
That’s how this Substack Live with Heather Vickery started.
Heather’s a Joy Warrior: coach, retreat host, and professional permission-giver for anyone tired of living by other people’s rules. We talked about what it means to lead with joy, why curating your circle matters, and how trusting your gut can lead you places your brain never would’ve approved of.
It was a great conversation even with the tech hiccup in the middle.
Finding Clarity in Creative Spaces
We dove into the power of community and collaboration. Heather calls it the “collective mind” — drawing on the energy and ideas of others can spark some of your most innovative work.
But we did agreed that having too many ideas without a filter can be overwhelming. Boundaries aren’t just nice to have. They’re essential for clarity and focus.
Heather: “I take intentional pauses to reflect on what truly serves me.”
Me: And I realized that I do the same thing, but in a different way — sifting through inspiration, holding onto the ideas that really line up with my goals, and letting the rest fall away.
Try this: Notice one idea or opportunity you’ve been juggling. Which one actually lights you up? Which feels like busywork?
Bonus idea: Give yourself permission to drop the rest, even temporarily. Creativity isn’t a sprint.
Vulnerability, Leadership, and Showing Up
One thread that kept coming up was vulnerability and how stepping away from the need to always “lead” opens space for listening, growth, and deeper connection.
Heather and I talked about the energy shift that happens when you let go of perfection, or the pressure to have all the answers:
“Joy isn’t a reward at the end of the journey,” Heather reminded me. “It’s the fuel that gets you there.”
I shared my own experiences with creative retreats and live conversations — feeling energized, humbled, and reminded that showing up authentically often leads to the richest insights.
Try this: Reflect on one area where you feel pressured to perform or lead. How could leaning into vulnerability actually make the experience richer?
Bonus idea: Take a small action this week that’s just for the joy of it, without any expectation.
Embracing Uncertainty and Rule-Breaking
We also explored the “messy middle” — the uncertainty that comes with growth, creativity, and breaking rules that no longer serve you.
Whether it’s stepping into a new project, a retreat, or just saying yes to curiosity, Heather reminded me that growth often lives in that uncomfortable space.
“Just because you can do it all doesn’t mean you should do it all.”
Try this: Look at one area where you’re following a rule just because “that’s how it’s done.” What would happen if you rewrote it for yourself?
Bonus idea: Journal about what your ideal day, project, or connection would look like if you removed the pressure to perform.
Listen In
This Substack Live was full of gentle nudges:
- Joy is your compass.
- Connection is a creative practice.
- Boundaries and reflection are part of the process.
- Trusting your gut and embracing uncertainty can spark your best ideas.
So whether you’re navigating your own creative projects, curating your circle, or just figuring out how to live with more ease, Heather and I unpacked ideas that remind us to start with joy, trust the process, and lean into what energizes us.
Closing...
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
And just like I promised,here's a quick little intro for a
great substack liveconversation I had with my friend
Heather Vickery.
And we talked about my trip toCosta Rica, and she talks about her
upcoming retreat in Costa Rica.
And if you liked what youheard here, you can find Heather
(00:24):
at brave Heather Vickery on substack.
All right, enjoy.
We're live.
Hi, everybody.
Okay, so this is the firsttime I have hosted a live with a
pal to chat about cool stuffout loud and then share it.
But I think that that'ssomething I really love about substack,
(00:45):
is that it's this beautifulspace to talk about what you're thinking
and feeling and doing and howyou're being creative.
And there's something reallypowerful about doing it out loud.
So I have my friend Kevin with.
Hey, Kevin, how are you?
Uh, oh, I'm doing great.
This is also my first time onsubstack live, so hello.
(01:07):
No limits, no barriers.
Good to see you.
I have to give this amazingfollower all the props because you
are my first paid subscriberon substack, and so you have my whole
heart and I appreciate you.
Oh, amazing.
I know, right?
And Stephanie.
Grandma's here.
We both know Stephanie.
Hi, Stephanie.
How are you?
(01:29):
Okay, so the reason that Iinvited you, Kevin, on, to chat with
me is, you know, my work isall about knowing, liking, and trusting
yourself and then learning tolead from embodied joy, because it
changes the way we show up inthe world.
It changes the way we interactwith people, the way we lead, and
it has the positive impactthat we actually want.
(01:51):
And it's counterintuitive towhat society tells us to do all the
time.
Right.
I'm suggesting you start with play.
I'm suggesting you start withjoy and gratitude and breaking the
rules.
And instead of thinking, youhave to earn that.
And you, my friend, havereally been doing that.
So introduce yourself and tellpeople a little bit about kind of
the very big brave thing thatyou've recently done.
(02:15):
Yeah.
Hey, Frank.
New joiner.
Yeah.
I'm Kevin, and I host asubstack called standout creatives
business for authors.
And it's not only for authors,but for any creative person who is
looking to really get theirword out into the world through marketing
website, you know, just yourmessaging and how you can essentially
(02:38):
be your most authentic you andreach your audience and not try to
play into the game of, oh,let's figure out how to get as many
followers as possible and tryto game the system and all that kind
of Stuff.
I've also recently done aglobal zine project which some people
may be here for.
That was a very cool projecton Substack that we released.
(03:02):
And this weekend, tomorrow andSunday, I am doing a creativity summit
with two other amazingcreative people.
And that is.
Can people still register for that?
Yeah.
Okay.
It is.
I'm registered.
I'm excited to check it out.
Yeah.
So how can they do that?
It'd be a lot of fun.
Go to summit creativityparties.com.
(03:25):
Okay.
And I'm guessing is theremaybe a link somewhere in your sub
stack they find it?
One of my most recent posts is.
But yeah, okay.
All right.
So I try to make it easy on you.
The other thing, though,Kevin, that you can't believe we
didn't talk about this, thatyou did use.
Yeah, I mean, we'll talk about it.
We'll go through differentthings, but I think it's what.
(03:46):
I think it's lovely.
And I use the word wild, notbecause I'm like, how could you do
it?
But it is, it felt as yourpal, like it was such an easy thing
for you to do.
I don't know if that's true,but it feels like such a big, massive
thing to do.
Um, Kevin just up and.
And his wife just up and movedfrom the United States to Costa Rica.
(04:09):
And you kind of didn't have aplan, except that you wanted to go,
right?
There was, there was a plan,but it was like a lot of bullet points.
It wasn't really like, oh,let's make a 30 step, you know, business
planning and all this stuff.
It was more, our intention isto live a more creative and fulfilling
life in the way that we want to.
And Costa Rica gives us thespace to be able to do that.
(04:31):
Thanks, Stephanie, for postingthat link.
Did you see that?
Hey, Lynn dropped the link to yourself.
Yeah, sorry.
Thanks, Stephanie.
Yes.
Should be a lot of fun.
Yeah.
But we started really decidingin February.
I talk all about this at leastup until, I think a month or so before
we leave about my journey.
(04:52):
And I'll be continuing thatall the way up into, like, present
times.
So it's, it's been a fun thingto write about.
I mean, it's pretty cool.
I have children, four of them,and some of them are still young
and in school, but I daydreamon a regular basis about moving to
another country.
(05:13):
Yes.
Oh.
What were your key motivators in.
In moving and what made youpick Costa Rica?
And I'm interested becausethose of you who follow me and know
I'm hosting a retreat in CostaRica in January and I love Costa
Rica, so.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(05:33):
My wife first came here on herbachelorette trip in 2021 and she
had such an amazing time.
She's, when she came back,she's like, oh, you're gonna love
it, you gotta come.
So I came the very next yearblown away too.
Just everything about theplace, the nature, the people, just
the pace of life, all of that stuff.
(05:54):
And then the very next year,after I went with my wife, I brought
my parents with me thefollowing year and we did very similar
itinerary and it was just likeso amazing here.
That's so cool.
And so what's notablydifferent about.
Because you're still doing thesame work, you're still running your
(06:14):
business from home, you'restill the same person married to
the same person.
What's noticeably differentabout life in Costa Rica?
Well, right now the biggestnoticeable thing is that we don't
have a car.
So we're literally walkingeverywhere right now.
And it's less of a problemthan you would expect, especially
if this first year we're inSan Jose, which is the capital, and
(06:37):
there is just so muchavailable to us within walking distance
that we can do that.
Or if not, there's things likeUber and what a lot of people use
here is called Didi.
It's pretty much the samething as an Uber and that's how we
can go.
If it's more than like a 30,45 minute walk, we'll.
We'll take a, a DD somewhere.
(06:59):
Okay, that's cool.
I did not.
I knew that I took Ubers whenI was there, but I didn't know they
had their own sort of drivercar service.
Yeah, that's something thatyou realize when you go to different
countries.
Like in Asia, there's also no Uber.
They have their own grab andbolt or what they.
Or what we used while we were there.
Well, it's interesting, Ifollow somebody.
(07:21):
It might be here.
Right here on Substack.
I can't remember.
It's Substack or Blue sky,who's always talking about driving
co op in Colorado where it'sbucking the, you know, the big corporate
approach and it's there,they're sharing in all the profits.
Anything like.
So I wonder if it's anythinglike that.
(07:43):
Interesting.
I don't think so.
I think this is like aAustralian, it's not a Costa Rican
company.
It's like a company thatoperates out of other countries too.
I don't remember exactlywhere, but all.
Right, that's kind of cool.
But I love that you did that.
And I'm excited because I'mcoming to Costa Rica a couple days
early in January before myretreat starts and we're going to
(08:05):
get to hang out in person andthat's going to be so much fun.
It's weird because you'recoming into San Jose.
Yeah, I am coming into San Jose.
And then we're taking adomestic flight from San Jose to
Cuepos and then we have abouta 45 minute drive.
Because my reclaim your peaceretreat is like legit in the middle
of the jungle.
And they, I will use the term,they dropped this luxury retreat
(08:29):
facility in the middle of thejungle, but they really didn't.
They worked really, reallyhard to build it in a place and to
be very, very eco friendly andeco conscious and really thoughtful
about working with the landand being as least disruptive as
possible.
It's one of the things that Ireally liked about the facility and
(08:49):
how much they care.
And it's kind of wild for me.
Like, when I was there, I. Idon't know what called me to Costa
Rica specifically.
I know that I found thisvenue, found me through a couple
of different sources.
And I.
So I'm a 13 spleenic projectorin human design.
(09:11):
And I just, my body just knewlike, oh, I have to do this.
Like, I have to host thisevent here.
And my brain was like, but areyou sure?
Because you're not really ajungle girl.
You're.
You're more of a, you know,sipping champagne by the lavender
fields in Provence kind of girl.
And I was like, no, I don'tknow why.
And I hadn't been there andI'd never been to Costa Rica, but
I was like, okay, let's do it.
(09:31):
Which was terrifying, Kevin,because I had to sign a very large
financial contract with thisproperty to secure it.
And I was like, what am I doing?
But then I went to the spacethis past March and I'm curious if
you have any experience likethis or if it's just this sort of
(09:53):
oasis that they've built.
But I felt so connected to the land.
I felt.
It was almost like a goldencord came up from the core of the
earth and connected through mybody into the universe.
Like, I just vibrated with allof that energy.
And despite the jungle noise,and there's quite a bit of it, I
felt silent for maybe thefirst time in my entire life.
(10:14):
And I'm 50.
Like, I was like, I canactually hear myself think.
I can Feel myself think has that.
Is that something you'reexperiencing being there?
That's definitely something Iexperienced the very first time that
I was here because we wentinto the mountains where the arena
(10:35):
volcano is, and they have hot springs.
And when you're just like,relaxing there and just being in
that space, you can just kindof feel like you're more in nature.
Obviously, it's like a resort,but they've decorated it so nicely
that it feels like you're inwith nature and you're just relaxing
(10:55):
and just like, being.
Instead of worrying aboutwhatever it is on the outside that
people worry about, you'rekind of just, like, taking it all
in.
So when I come in, actuallythe day before we leave for Imoloa,
we are staying at a beautifullittle boutique hotel out in the
mountains, and.
And people have that day to goand do things.
(11:17):
So maybe you can share with mewhere you went to those hot springs,
so that I can send that as asuggestion, because I.
In the northern part of the country.
Yeah.
That's so cool.
I love it.
And I had somebody say, youknow, jungle.
Jungle sounds.
That's interesting.
What is that?
And I'm.
It's just that, like, natureis alive.
(11:38):
The sound of.
Of the monkeys and the birdsand the bugs and, like.
Yeah, they're everything,like, profound.
I don't remember exactly whatpercentage, but there's, like.
I think it's either 3 or 6% ofall the biodiversity in the world
is here.
(11:58):
I don't know where that camefrom, but apparently there's just
some very large number becausethey've intentionally made this country
not to focus on.
You know, they don't actuallyhave, like, a military here, so they
use those funds to fund.
I hope we didn't lose you, Kevin.
Frozen.
Yep.
You're back.
Though I think maybe.
(12:19):
There you are.
Yeah.
That is so cool.
Stephanie said she's going togo to YouTube and look for jungle
noises.
You're.
You're going to find them and.
And they're real.
But it's pretty cool,actually, to do that.
Oh, no.
Kevin froze on me again.
Yeah, the retreat's gonna beamazing for anybody who's interested
in coming with.
Oh, I lost Kevin completely.
(12:40):
Let's see if we can get him back.
Because I wanna talk more withKevin about, you know, what this.
All this means to be creative.
And I feel personally sostressed about marketing and promotion
and all of that.
(13:00):
Hey, you're back.
Well, one of the things that Iwanted to chat with you about, because
I.
And I was saying this whenyou, when you got kicked out, and
I don't know if anybody couldhear me or not, I just kept talking
because, you know, I wasn'tsure if people were there.
But one of the things that Idon't care for at all is marketing
and promotion.
It feels like it takes awayall the joy of doing the business.
(13:21):
But I own my own business andif I don't market and promote, I
don't have a business.
So it's stressful and that'skind of your jam.
And so when you talk aboutcreativity, how does that help and
what makes what's differentabout your approach and how can it
save me?
I think a lot of people whoare like heart focused type of people
(13:45):
are thinking about marketingin the wrong manner.
It might be you, it might not be.
But the way that I personallysee it that has helped me the most
to think about things is tosay, who are the people that need
to hear my message?
Because I know I can help them.
Yeah.
And how, how do I get that out?
Yeah, yeah.
(14:05):
It's just like, obviouslythere's a lot of logistical things
that go into it and it takesup a lot of time and it feels like
it could be a little bit, youknow, scammy or whatever.
But if you're doing it withintention and in a way that is helpful
for people, I think it's adisservice to not get your message
(14:27):
out there as much as you canin a way that you feel is right for
you.
So that means different thingsto different people.
I agree with all of that.
I just find it reallyexhausting and overwhelming.
Even if I know what I'msharing is powerful and impactful
and I know it inside and outand it shouldn't feel like maybe
it's just because I'm aprojector, I don't know.
(14:47):
But it's feels hard.
And it's not that I can't dohard things, but I don't want to
do them all day, every day.
Yeah.
What, what do you think it isthat marketing takes out of you when
you try to do it?
Um, keeping up with it is one element.
(15:09):
And, and I'm sure there's alimiting voice.
My subconscious reprogrammingtraining is popping in right now
because I.
Doesn't always work.
It doesn't always convert.
And then you're like, well,you've put so much effort into something
and so much heart and love,and then it doesn't work.
And then you're like, I couldhave just read a book that Would
have been great.
(15:29):
Like, why am I doing this?
It's exhausting to put thatmuch effort into something and you.
And it doesn't work.
Yeah.
What things have you triedthat have worked best for you?
That you found the only thing.
And I, and I say this, so Itry to be the kind of entrepreneur
and transformation coachthat's really, really transparent
(15:49):
with everyone who's paying attention.
I don't have all the answersall the time.
I have lots of different.
Oh, no one does try things.
Exactly.
But I'm not that person who'sgoing to come in and be like, do
it just like this.
And it's going to give youthese results because everybody's
different.
You got to try all sorts ofdifferent things.
I have been an entrepreneurfor 25 years.
Years.
Half of my life.
(16:09):
I'm 50 years old and I haverun successful business this entire
time.
And literally the only thingthat has ever worked for me is relationship,
is conversations and then wordof mouth referrals.
And I'll give you a greatexample, posting my retreat in Costa
(16:30):
Rica, the like eight superfans that I have who I love with
my whole heart, they signed on immediately.
They were like, if you'redoing it, I want to be there.
That's great.
And then it was CricketsForever, which was a little brutal.
And then a friend saw me postabout it on TikTok, somebody that
I've co authored books with.
And, you know, she's kind ofbeen out of my loop for a little
bit.
She's like, oh, that's great.
(16:50):
Yeah, I want to do that.
And then a former client sawit and said, I want to do it.
But this week, one of myattendees, who is also a former client,
got three of her friends tosign up.
That's the only thing I'veever seen be successful, is word
of mouth and referral.
So I guess this is all aboutrelationship building, which is what
I do.
That is what I do on socialmedia for the most part.
(17:12):
The only thing about that isscaling relationship is very difficult.
Correct.
Hence the exhaustion.
Yeah, yeah.
So I would make it moreintentional to reach out to people,
you know, that havecommunities that are aligned with
(17:33):
you and have them help you getthe message out.
That's.
I know you've been doing thata lot, and I think we're right here.
Doing this right now.
That's what I found is thebest way, like, for the summit, the
best way to do this was eitherreach out to people myself or have
a message and then have otherpeople share your Message for you.
(17:56):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Which I think has helped a lot.
And, you know, the facilitythat I'm hosting my retreat at, they
put a ton of money into ads,and that's not something that I have
done or been able to do.
I'm a single mom of four.
I would love to.
I think that that would make a difference.
You know, I have a communitymembership that's only $18 a month.
(18:16):
That's never going to make aton of money, but it could.
If it had, you know, athousand people in it or 5,000 people
in it, that would be amazing.
But I know something like thatneeds ads, and I don't know, I just
haven't done ads.
Yeah.
And the only other thing thatcan help potentially is to work with
(18:37):
other people or, you know,have other people help you with.
Yeah.
Either collaborate or you canhire somebody just to do certain
things, just to make it sothat you don't have to do the things
you don't like to do.
Right.
There's a lot of things I'massuming you don't like to do in
your business.
So just offloading the thingsand working on the things that work
best for you and areintentional and, you know, for sure
(19:01):
align with what you're tryingto do is the way I would do it.
I. I am a big fan ofdelegation, folks.
Big, big, big fan.
Just because you can do it alldoesn't mean you should do it all.
It doesn't mean you have, nor should.
You, if you can afford to, or,you know, find some way to even do
exchanges.
A lot of people do serviceexchanges where you're helping each
(19:22):
other in different ways, andthat way you're not necessarily paying
somebody, but you're helpingeach other.
Let's say you wanted me to doyour emails and I wanted you to do
some, like, coaching stuff.
We could do something likethat as an exchange.
So that way we're both gettingvalue out of it, and eventually we're
going to build our audiencesenough together to.
(19:43):
No, I love that.
I'm a big fan of the barter system.
I think it should be used morethan it is.
There are lots of ways to make money.
I remember my very firstcoach, the.
The person who taught me howto be a coach.
He asked me, we've beenworking together for, I don't know,
six, eight weeks.
And he said, so, Heather, whendo you think you can have your first
(20:04):
client?
And I was like, I don't know,three months?
And he said, well, I want youto have your first client in A week.
And I was like, what?
And he said, there are lots ofways to get paid.
I want you to think about outof the box ways to get paid and who
can you talk to?
And I, I did it.
I had two clients within thenext week.
(20:25):
And one was.
She was a guinea pig client.
And I told her that.
And I was transparent.
And I was like, I want yourfeedback and I want your testimonials.
And another was a trade.
And then it went from there.
And the first paying clientthat I ever had is.
Is still a friend.
She still comes to my stuff.
(20:46):
She comes to my.
She's local.
She comes to my networkingbreakfast every month.
And she was like, you changedmy life every day.
I'm grateful that I got towork with you because you changed
my life.
And that was in the beginning,when I didn't even know a little
bit as much as I know right now.
So I think peopleunderestimate that, that value a
lot.
Yeah.
I think everyone says it andit becomes a cliche, but your.
(21:08):
Your network is your networth, right?
Yeah, it's such, Such a.
Like a. I don't like the wayit sounds, but it's.
The truth in it is that if you don't.
If the person you're talkingto doesn't necessarily need your
services themselves, theymight know somebody else that does.
Because as many people as youknow that can connect you with other
(21:30):
people, the more likely youare to find somewhere in this web
of people that you know, youknow, a connection that makes sense
for you.
Yeah, I agree.
Stephanie says it's cheesy,but it seems to be true.
It is true.
Yeah.
And I think that it.
It's.
It's more true even than thebarter system or making money or
(21:52):
whatever.
It's about, like, who fills you.
Who fills you with joy.
Like, who do you enjoy being with?
Who do you.
Who are you grateful and yougrow with?
They say you either rise andfall to the calorie of the people
you spend your time with, andI curate that.
I'm careful about who I spendmy time with and my energy with because
(22:12):
it just matters a lot.
Yeah.
There's a theory that there'slike, there's some circles that go
out from the middle.
In the middle, you have thesmallest number of people, and that
is the people who will doanything, like you're saying, to
help you no matter what, sothere's no questions asked.
They'll help you.
And then in the ring, outsideof that is like, people that you
(22:35):
know, but they Won'tnecessarily jump at the first chance.
You have to kind of work withthem a little bit in order to convince
them or, you know, to get themto become a person in the center.
And then you have the bigcircle, which is like social media.
We're just trying to getpeople to notice you.
So it's taking people from theouter circles and getting them into
(22:56):
the inner circles.
Into the inner circles.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But I think the only way to dothat is to have genuine engagement
and conversation.
And so if I, if I'm moved bysomething that I see on social media,
I will always engage or respond.
Because if, if you've workedhard, it's like, it's the same theory.
(23:16):
If I stop to listen to astreet musician, I tip them because
they're working, they're there working.
And if their work makes mestop and pay attention, then I think
they deserve some sort of compensation.
And so on social media,compensation is engagement.
Like, let me, I love this, Iheard this.
Let me amplify this.
(23:38):
In fact, I did a live showabout that a couple months ago.
How easy it is to be anamplifier if your intentions are.
And it costs you nothing to bean amplifier.
Costs you nothing.
Yeah, no time and very littleof it at that.
And I just love to see people win.
Like, I really, really love tosee people thrive and win.
(23:59):
It makes me really happy.
Yeah.
So I think the best way to doyour best work is to help other people
do their best work.
Right.
That's the only way thatyou're gonna get.
Convince people to work withyou beyond a first initial attempt
is if you've done so good,such a good job that they'll be like,
(24:20):
oh yeah, it makes, it's a nobrainer to work with you again or
to do the next thing or to buyyour next thing or whatever.
There's a guy named KevinKelly who has a very popular article
called 1000 True Fans.
And that's just like, in orderto survive and thrive, all you need
is 1,000 people who are reallydedicated to what you're doing.
(24:40):
And then you can, every timeyou're releasing something or making
something, they're just righton it.
So how do you expand from thateight person circle of superfans
to a thousand people?
Obviously that's hard to scalewhen you're doing one on one personal
relationships.
But that doesn't mean you can't.
In those relationships, youcan either sell a lot of things that
(25:02):
cost a little bit of money,you can sell a few things that cost
a Lot of money.
Or you can do like a mixture.
I do a lot of number of those things.
Yeah.
And that's important to me.
We have a question from Stephanie.
I'm going to ask in just a second.
But for me as a businessowner, as a heart centered, conscious
leader within my integrity, Ihave several ways that I offer free
(25:23):
support because I want it tobe available to everyone.
I have low.
You know, you can get one offSubliminal Audios.
You can join the Sparkcollector for 18amonth.
Like there's that and thenthere's middle price, couple hundred
kind of thing and then it goesup from there.
So I try to make somethingthat will fit everybody's budget
and needs to the best of my ability.
Okay.
(25:43):
Stephanie says, I agree withHeather, that marketing can be draining.
Kevin, can you give some ideasof like two things that we can do
every day to market and, orpromote ourselves and then what is
the difference betweenmarketing and promotion?
So the things that I would doare the things that you find most
(26:04):
enjoyable.
I know that a lot of the timesthat doesn't make you the money,
but if you do it well enoughand you help people enough.
Well, I guess it depends onwhat kind of business you're running.
So Stephanie, you're an artist.
It's a little bit differentbecause you're trying to sell your
artwork.
But they main thing is likemaking those connections deeper in
(26:28):
your case with thosecollectors or people who are interested
in buying your photographs.
And how do you do that?
That is both aligned with youand makes sense for them in a way
that they want to connect with you.
Marketing versus promotion.
Promotion to me, I don't knowwhat the definitions of each of those
(26:50):
are, but promotion sounds tome like a discount or something along
those lines.
That's not how I hear the word promotion.
So that's interesting.
Yeah, I mean, I guess there'sdifferent definitions of promotion,
but in my mind that's what Iwould think about when.
If I'm trying to distinguishthe difference between those, like
promotion.
What's the promo code?
(27:11):
Right.
Yeah.
Oh, that's interesting.
Yeah.
Promotion to me just meanslike, like pushing your stuff out.
But, but I.
But yeah, that's just drawingpeople in.
Interesting.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
Kevin, can you tell folks whatis happening at the conference this
weekend?
(27:31):
What, what kinds of differentthings they can experience?
How much of their time is required?
Because that was for me, Idon't, I don't work on the weekends.
And creativity isn'tnecessarily always about work.
But sitting on a summit for Mefeels like it's part of my job to
expand myself.
But I was like, no, I'm really curious.
I want to do this, but I don'tknow how much I can show up.
So what can people expect?
What kinds of things will behappening and what's the time commitment?
(27:54):
Oh yeah, so it's gonna be from1 to 4pm Eastern time.
So that's, I mean 5pm, that'sfour hours of time.
And I think the biggestdifference between what we're doing
and what most summits are iswe're gonna be doing a lot of interactive
things.
So one of the things I'm gonnabe doing in both days is like fun
(28:14):
activities to get you out ofyour brain and stop thinking.
Like, oh, it's of kind.
I'm just stuck up here all the time.
How do you get out of that?
What are some activities andways to kind of break free from the
thinking brain and just doingand having fun with it?
And that's another thing thatwe're going to try to do is just
have fun throughout the timeand there's going to be networking
(28:35):
opportunities so you can meetall the other people.
That's one of the things thathappens in live conferences and summits
where you get to meet peopleoutside of the sessions, like in
the waiting room.
So we're going to try torecreate that kind of thing within
the summit itself.
So that way you're not justlistening to people talk.
And then other than thatthere's like going to be tools and
(28:56):
resources in order for you tobe more creative.
How do you get out of your head?
How do you stopprocrastinating all this, these kinds
of things and philosophies onhow to live a more creative life.
I love that.
So obviously being there inperson, if you, if you really value
the interactive hands onactivities and the networking is
super important.
If you can't be there inperson, is it, is there a replay
(29:19):
or are there other ways thatyou can get the information?
Yeah, there will be a replayand then if you sign up, we will
be sending the replay for freefor anyone, for everyone.
And if you aren't able toattend, you can see what happens.
Obviously you're going to bemissing out on specific connections
and stuff like that, which I'mnot sure how the main room is going
(29:40):
to look during those times.
We might have to cut out somestuff, but I think the biggest thing
is you can come in and out ifyou want to and that you don't have
to stay the whole Time.
But the experience that we'retrying to create is best if you are
coming to as many things asyou can and connecting with all the
people and doing work thatdoesn't feel like work.
(30:03):
It's going to be, you know,working on yourself and your creativity,
but it's not going to be like,oh, I'm building a business plan,
or something like that.
Yeah, yeah, I love that.
And I just think anything with creativity.
My friend Rachel, who I cocreated the deck of Create Brave
manifestation cards withseveral years ago, she had a creativity
conference in person.
(30:24):
And each room, one was whereyou would, you know, make your own
coloring pages.
And I did one on gratitude andhow you can bring gratitude into
creativity.
And it was just such a fun.
And then we closed.
I don't know how you would dothis virtually, but we closed.
She had a singer, and we wereall in a circle, and she would have
(30:46):
us sing, like, follow her, andwe'd get louder and quieter and we'd
get closer to each other and,like, feel the vibration of people.
It was such a cool experience.
So I think that the reminderthat creativity is subjective, that
your creativity is gonna lookdifferent than somebody else's creativity.
I mean, my podcast, was itChance is the podcast about embracing
(31:06):
opportunity and takingintentional risk for your creative
life.
And we interview people from.
The episode we have out rightnow is with Tad Stromer, who's a
historian but has a hugecreative following and authors and
dancers and, you know, allacross the board.
Creativity has to, like.
It can look and feel like somany different things.
(31:26):
You just have to your own waysto tap into it.
And you.
And I love how you help peopledo that.
Kevin?
Yeah, One interesting thing,you are not able to attend, but Stephanie
and Heather are in a podcastcollective, feminist podcast collective.
And I just had a session thisweek where we were trying to help
me figure out, since my showis called Standout Creatives, how
(31:49):
do I make it more standout andcreative than the typical just, you
know, solo episode and interviews?
And there are a lot of ideasgenerated in this that I can play
with now that there's, like,so many ideas out in the world.
I'm like, oh, wow, there's toomany things now.
And I have to take that andkind of pull it down into the thing
(32:11):
that makes the most sense for me.
So I think one of the things,especially with this summit, is that
you're going to be in thisroom with so many other creative
people in the world, and howdo you take ideas that aren't just
Your own, but through acollective mind.
Group mind, I think, is oftenthe way that the most and best ideas
come out is because you're notspending all of your energy.
(32:35):
You're using the collectivemind sourcing.
Yeah, exactly.
I love that.
I was super bummed.
Yes, I'm super bummed.
I didn't miss your session,but I'm gonna watch the replay because
it sounds like it was a reallycool room to be in.
And you brought up something Ithink is really interesting.
In those sorts of scenarios,you do have to set your own boundaries
(32:55):
and limits because it would beso easy to just be super overwhelmed
and then not do anything.
Right.
So I don't know, you'll haveto tell us what you did, but I think
I would be like, okay, let mewrite all of these down, walk away
and come back and pick one ortwo that I feel really excited about,
and the rest can stay.
Like, I can come back to themlater, but you can't do everything
(33:17):
at once.
How did you handle that?
I am still processing my waythrough all the suggestions, and
I will, at that point figureout what makes the most sense for
me.
I have an idea that there'sgoing to be some improv elements
in it, but I haven't decidedexactly what that looks like yet.
(33:39):
And just having people thathave been guests connect with each
other or, you know, take aunique look at different things,
instead of like an interviewwith one person, how do we take a
roundtable or something like that?
Pull out some of the stuff, dosome experiments.
There's just like, all kindsof stuff that you can.
Oh, a roundtable potentially do.
Yeah, yeah.
(34:00):
So one of the ideas was tolook at a book launch through the
lens of different people whoworked on a single book.
So what did the publisher say?
What did the editor say?
What did the author say?
What did the illustrator say?
And kind of just approach it,like, how.
How would, if we were doingthis from scratch, do it to be the
most successful launch that wecan have?
(34:21):
Right.
That's fun.
That's really cool.
One of the things that I loveabout co hosting my podcast was it
chances.
Alan and I are so different.
We think differently, weobserve differently, and we ask very,
very different questions.
And we both love this becauseI would never have thought of the
(34:42):
questions he would ask, and hewould never have thought of the questions
that I would ask.
And then he.
They.
The guest will answer thatquestion, and then that brings something
interesting to my mind.
And so having that dynamic toplay off of is really, really fun.
And it Takes a little of thepressure off, too, to, to always
be guiding and leading the conversation.
(35:04):
Yeah.
It gives you some opportunityto actually think more about what
they're saying, because whenyou're doing an interview by yourself,
you have to think, okay, whatis the next thing that happens because
of what they said?
But if you're on thesidelines, you get to think, process,
and come up with, you know,the best thing that makes sense within
(35:24):
the context of the overall conversation.
Right.
It's a lot of fun.
All right, well, Kevin, I wantto let you get back.
I know you're prepping for abig summit tomorrow, and maybe you're
going to go outside and be inthe wonderful weather, although it's
warm here, but it's nottropical in Chicago.
But thank you so much forchatting with me.
What do you think of yourfirst Substaff Live?
Oh, it's, it's great.
(35:45):
I love just chatting andseeing people join.
Who?
I didn't expect anybody to join.
I don't know if you did, but,you know, it's always fun to have
people come in just to seewhat you're up to, because we're
not, we're not big audiencepeople, so it's, like, always great
to see that people areinterested to hear what we say.
(36:06):
It is fun.
Stephanie said, great conversation.
We're so glad you were here.
Thanks for engaging, becausethat does make a difference.
I will tell you just forfuture reference, I find Substack
to be the easiest platform togo live on and have people join and
engage.
It makes it so much more funto show up and say yes, because you
feel like you're actuallybuilding community with people instead
(36:27):
of just, like, talking toyourself on your camera.
Yeah, yeah.
Until, until you're like atwitch streamer who has, like, hundreds
of people and you can't evenread the feed anymore.
I, I, I don't have, I have nothad that experience, so.
Yeah, neither have I, but Idon't know how people do that.
I love it.
All right, well, thanks,everybody for joining.
Thanks, Kevin, for hanging out.
(36:48):
Thanks, everyone, and.
Okay, bye.
And just like I promised,here's a quick little intro for a
great substack liveconversation I had with my friend
Heather Vickery.
And we talked about my trip toCosta Rica, and she talks about her
upcoming retreat in Costa Rica.
And if you liked what youheard here, you can find Heather
(00:24):
at brave Heather Vickery on substack.
All right, enjoy.
We're live.
Hi, everybody.
Okay, so this is the firsttime I have hosted a live with a
pal to chat about cool stuffout loud and then share it.
But I think that that'ssomething I really love about substack,
(00:45):
is that it's this beautifulspace to talk about what you're thinking
and feeling and doing and howyou're being creative.
And there's something reallypowerful about doing it out loud.
So I have my friend Kevin with.
Hey, Kevin, how are you?
Uh, oh, I'm doing great.
This is also my first time onsubstack live, so hello.
(01:07):
No limits, no barriers.
Good to see you.
I have to give this amazingfollower all the props because you
are my first paid subscriberon substack, and so you have my whole
heart and I appreciate you.
Oh, amazing.
I know, right?
And Stephanie.
Grandma's here.
We both know Stephanie.
Hi, Stephanie.
How are you?
(01:29):
Okay, so the reason that Iinvited you, Kevin, on, to chat with
me is, you know, my work isall about knowing, liking, and trusting
yourself and then learning tolead from embodied joy, because it
changes the way we show up inthe world.
It changes the way we interactwith people, the way we lead, and
it has the positive impactthat we actually want.
(01:51):
And it's counterintuitive towhat society tells us to do all the
time.
Right.
I'm suggesting you start with play.
I'm suggesting you start withjoy and gratitude and breaking the
rules.
And instead of thinking, youhave to earn that.
And you, my friend, havereally been doing that.
So introduce yourself and tellpeople a little bit about kind of
the very big brave thing thatyou've recently done.
(02:15):
Yeah.
Hey, Frank.
New joiner.
Yeah.
I'm Kevin, and I host asubstack called standout creatives
business for authors.
And it's not only for authors,but for any creative person who is
looking to really get theirword out into the world through marketing
website, you know, just yourmessaging and how you can essentially
(02:38):
be your most authentic you andreach your audience and not try to
play into the game of, oh,let's figure out how to get as many
followers as possible and tryto game the system and all that kind
of Stuff.
I've also recently done aglobal zine project which some people
may be here for.
That was a very cool projecton Substack that we released.
(03:02):
And this weekend, tomorrow andSunday, I am doing a creativity summit
with two other amazingcreative people.
And that is.
Can people still register for that?
Yeah.
Okay.
It is.
I'm registered.
I'm excited to check it out.
Yeah.
So how can they do that?
It'd be a lot of fun.
Go to summit creativityparties.com.
(03:25):
Okay.
And I'm guessing is theremaybe a link somewhere in your sub
stack they find it?
One of my most recent posts is.
But yeah, okay.
All right.
So I try to make it easy on you.
The other thing, though,Kevin, that you can't believe we
didn't talk about this, thatyou did use.
Yeah, I mean, we'll talk about it.
We'll go through differentthings, but I think it's what.
(03:46):
I think it's lovely.
And I use the word wild, notbecause I'm like, how could you do
it?
But it is, it felt as yourpal, like it was such an easy thing
for you to do.
I don't know if that's true,but it feels like such a big, massive
thing to do.
Um, Kevin just up and.
And his wife just up and movedfrom the United States to Costa Rica.
(04:09):
And you kind of didn't have aplan, except that you wanted to go,
right?
There was, there was a plan,but it was like a lot of bullet points.
It wasn't really like, oh,let's make a 30 step, you know, business
planning and all this stuff.
It was more, our intention isto live a more creative and fulfilling
life in the way that we want to.
And Costa Rica gives us thespace to be able to do that.
(04:31):
Thanks, Stephanie, for postingthat link.
Did you see that?
Hey, Lynn dropped the link to yourself.
Yeah, sorry.
Thanks, Stephanie.
Yes.
Should be a lot of fun.
Yeah.
But we started really decidingin February.
I talk all about this at leastup until, I think a month or so before
we leave about my journey.
(04:52):
And I'll be continuing thatall the way up into, like, present
times.
So it's, it's been a fun thingto write about.
I mean, it's pretty cool.
I have children, four of them,and some of them are still young
and in school, but I daydreamon a regular basis about moving to
another country.
(05:13):
Yes.
Oh.
What were your key motivators in.
In moving and what made youpick Costa Rica?
And I'm interested becausethose of you who follow me and know
I'm hosting a retreat in CostaRica in January and I love Costa
Rica, so.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(05:33):
My wife first came here on herbachelorette trip in 2021 and she
had such an amazing time.
She's, when she came back,she's like, oh, you're gonna love
it, you gotta come.
So I came the very next yearblown away too.
Just everything about theplace, the nature, the people, just
the pace of life, all of that stuff.
(05:54):
And then the very next year,after I went with my wife, I brought
my parents with me thefollowing year and we did very similar
itinerary and it was just likeso amazing here.
That's so cool.
And so what's notablydifferent about.
Because you're still doing thesame work, you're still running your
(06:14):
business from home, you'restill the same person married to
the same person.
What's noticeably differentabout life in Costa Rica?
Well, right now the biggestnoticeable thing is that we don't
have a car.
So we're literally walkingeverywhere right now.
And it's less of a problemthan you would expect, especially
if this first year we're inSan Jose, which is the capital, and
(06:37):
there is just so muchavailable to us within walking distance
that we can do that.
Or if not, there's things likeUber and what a lot of people use
here is called Didi.
It's pretty much the samething as an Uber and that's how we
can go.
If it's more than like a 30,45 minute walk, we'll.
We'll take a, a DD somewhere.
(06:59):
Okay, that's cool.
I did not.
I knew that I took Ubers whenI was there, but I didn't know they
had their own sort of drivercar service.
Yeah, that's something thatyou realize when you go to different
countries.
Like in Asia, there's also no Uber.
They have their own grab andbolt or what they.
Or what we used while we were there.
Well, it's interesting, Ifollow somebody.
(07:21):
It might be here.
Right here on Substack.
I can't remember.
It's Substack or Blue sky,who's always talking about driving
co op in Colorado where it'sbucking the, you know, the big corporate
approach and it's there,they're sharing in all the profits.
Anything like.
So I wonder if it's anythinglike that.
(07:43):
Interesting.
I don't think so.
I think this is like aAustralian, it's not a Costa Rican
company.
It's like a company thatoperates out of other countries too.
I don't remember exactlywhere, but all.
Right, that's kind of cool.
But I love that you did that.
And I'm excited because I'mcoming to Costa Rica a couple days
early in January before myretreat starts and we're going to
(08:05):
get to hang out in person andthat's going to be so much fun.
It's weird because you'recoming into San Jose.
Yeah, I am coming into San Jose.
And then we're taking adomestic flight from San Jose to
Cuepos and then we have abouta 45 minute drive.
Because my reclaim your peaceretreat is like legit in the middle
of the jungle.
And they, I will use the term,they dropped this luxury retreat
(08:29):
facility in the middle of thejungle, but they really didn't.
They worked really, reallyhard to build it in a place and to
be very, very eco friendly andeco conscious and really thoughtful
about working with the landand being as least disruptive as
possible.
It's one of the things that Ireally liked about the facility and
(08:49):
how much they care.
And it's kind of wild for me.
Like, when I was there, I. Idon't know what called me to Costa
Rica specifically.
I know that I found thisvenue, found me through a couple
of different sources.
And I.
So I'm a 13 spleenic projectorin human design.
(09:11):
And I just, my body just knewlike, oh, I have to do this.
Like, I have to host thisevent here.
And my brain was like, but areyou sure?
Because you're not really ajungle girl.
You're.
You're more of a, you know,sipping champagne by the lavender
fields in Provence kind of girl.
And I was like, no, I don'tknow why.
And I hadn't been there andI'd never been to Costa Rica, but
I was like, okay, let's do it.
(09:31):
Which was terrifying, Kevin,because I had to sign a very large
financial contract with thisproperty to secure it.
And I was like, what am I doing?
But then I went to the spacethis past March and I'm curious if
you have any experience likethis or if it's just this sort of
(09:53):
oasis that they've built.
But I felt so connected to the land.
I felt.
It was almost like a goldencord came up from the core of the
earth and connected through mybody into the universe.
Like, I just vibrated with allof that energy.
And despite the jungle noise,and there's quite a bit of it, I
felt silent for maybe thefirst time in my entire life.
(10:14):
And I'm 50.
Like, I was like, I canactually hear myself think.
I can Feel myself think has that.
Is that something you'reexperiencing being there?
That's definitely something Iexperienced the very first time that
I was here because we wentinto the mountains where the arena
(10:35):
volcano is, and they have hot springs.
And when you're just like,relaxing there and just being in
that space, you can just kindof feel like you're more in nature.
Obviously, it's like a resort,but they've decorated it so nicely
that it feels like you're inwith nature and you're just relaxing
(10:55):
and just like, being.
Instead of worrying aboutwhatever it is on the outside that
people worry about, you'rekind of just, like, taking it all
in.
So when I come in, actuallythe day before we leave for Imoloa,
we are staying at a beautifullittle boutique hotel out in the
mountains, and.
And people have that day to goand do things.
(11:17):
So maybe you can share with mewhere you went to those hot springs,
so that I can send that as asuggestion, because I.
In the northern part of the country.
Yeah.
That's so cool.
I love it.
And I had somebody say, youknow, jungle.
Jungle sounds.
That's interesting.
What is that?
And I'm.
It's just that, like, natureis alive.
(11:38):
The sound of.
Of the monkeys and the birdsand the bugs and, like.
Yeah, they're everything,like, profound.
I don't remember exactly whatpercentage, but there's, like.
I think it's either 3 or 6% ofall the biodiversity in the world
is here.
(11:58):
I don't know where that camefrom, but apparently there's just
some very large number becausethey've intentionally made this country
not to focus on.
You know, they don't actuallyhave, like, a military here, so they
use those funds to fund.
I hope we didn't lose you, Kevin.
Frozen.
Yep.
You're back.
Though I think maybe.
(12:19):
There you are.
Yeah.
That is so cool.
Stephanie said she's going togo to YouTube and look for jungle
noises.
You're.
You're going to find them and.
And they're real.
But it's pretty cool,actually, to do that.
Oh, no.
Kevin froze on me again.
Yeah, the retreat's gonna beamazing for anybody who's interested
in coming with.
Oh, I lost Kevin completely.
(12:40):
Let's see if we can get him back.
Because I wanna talk more withKevin about, you know, what this.
All this means to be creative.
And I feel personally sostressed about marketing and promotion
and all of that.
(13:00):
Hey, you're back.
Well, one of the things that Iwanted to chat with you about, because
I.
And I was saying this whenyou, when you got kicked out, and
I don't know if anybody couldhear me or not, I just kept talking
because, you know, I wasn'tsure if people were there.
But one of the things that Idon't care for at all is marketing
and promotion.
It feels like it takes awayall the joy of doing the business.
(13:21):
But I own my own business andif I don't market and promote, I
don't have a business.
So it's stressful and that'skind of your jam.
And so when you talk aboutcreativity, how does that help and
what makes what's differentabout your approach and how can it
save me?
I think a lot of people whoare like heart focused type of people
(13:45):
are thinking about marketingin the wrong manner.
It might be you, it might not be.
But the way that I personallysee it that has helped me the most
to think about things is tosay, who are the people that need
to hear my message?
Because I know I can help them.
Yeah.
And how, how do I get that out?
Yeah, yeah.
(14:05):
It's just like, obviouslythere's a lot of logistical things
that go into it and it takesup a lot of time and it feels like
it could be a little bit, youknow, scammy or whatever.
But if you're doing it withintention and in a way that is helpful
for people, I think it's adisservice to not get your message
(14:27):
out there as much as you canin a way that you feel is right for
you.
So that means different thingsto different people.
I agree with all of that.
I just find it reallyexhausting and overwhelming.
Even if I know what I'msharing is powerful and impactful
and I know it inside and outand it shouldn't feel like maybe
it's just because I'm aprojector, I don't know.
(14:47):
But it's feels hard.
And it's not that I can't dohard things, but I don't want to
do them all day, every day.
Yeah.
What, what do you think it isthat marketing takes out of you when
you try to do it?
Um, keeping up with it is one element.
(15:09):
And, and I'm sure there's alimiting voice.
My subconscious reprogrammingtraining is popping in right now
because I.
Doesn't always work.
It doesn't always convert.
And then you're like, well,you've put so much effort into something
and so much heart and love,and then it doesn't work.
And then you're like, I couldhave just read a book that Would
have been great.
(15:29):
Like, why am I doing this?
It's exhausting to put thatmuch effort into something and you.
And it doesn't work.
Yeah.
What things have you triedthat have worked best for you?
That you found the only thing.
And I, and I say this, so Itry to be the kind of entrepreneur
and transformation coachthat's really, really transparent
(15:49):
with everyone who's paying attention.
I don't have all the answersall the time.
I have lots of different.
Oh, no one does try things.
Exactly.
But I'm not that person who'sgoing to come in and be like, do
it just like this.
And it's going to give youthese results because everybody's
different.
You got to try all sorts ofdifferent things.
I have been an entrepreneurfor 25 years.
Years.
Half of my life.
(16:09):
I'm 50 years old and I haverun successful business this entire
time.
And literally the only thingthat has ever worked for me is relationship,
is conversations and then wordof mouth referrals.
And I'll give you a greatexample, posting my retreat in Costa
(16:30):
Rica, the like eight superfans that I have who I love with
my whole heart, they signed on immediately.
They were like, if you'redoing it, I want to be there.
That's great.
And then it was CricketsForever, which was a little brutal.
And then a friend saw me postabout it on TikTok, somebody that
I've co authored books with.
And, you know, she's kind ofbeen out of my loop for a little
bit.
She's like, oh, that's great.
(16:50):
Yeah, I want to do that.
And then a former client sawit and said, I want to do it.
But this week, one of myattendees, who is also a former client,
got three of her friends tosign up.
That's the only thing I'veever seen be successful, is word
of mouth and referral.
So I guess this is all aboutrelationship building, which is what
I do.
That is what I do on socialmedia for the most part.
(17:12):
The only thing about that isscaling relationship is very difficult.
Correct.
Hence the exhaustion.
Yeah, yeah.
So I would make it moreintentional to reach out to people,
you know, that havecommunities that are aligned with
(17:33):
you and have them help you getthe message out.
That's.
I know you've been doing thata lot, and I think we're right here.
Doing this right now.
That's what I found is thebest way, like, for the summit, the
best way to do this was eitherreach out to people myself or have
a message and then have otherpeople share your Message for you.
(17:56):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Which I think has helped a lot.
And, you know, the facilitythat I'm hosting my retreat at, they
put a ton of money into ads,and that's not something that I have
done or been able to do.
I'm a single mom of four.
I would love to.
I think that that would make a difference.
You know, I have a communitymembership that's only $18 a month.
(18:16):
That's never going to make aton of money, but it could.
If it had, you know, athousand people in it or 5,000 people
in it, that would be amazing.
But I know something like thatneeds ads, and I don't know, I just
haven't done ads.
Yeah.
And the only other thing thatcan help potentially is to work with
(18:37):
other people or, you know,have other people help you with.
Yeah.
Either collaborate or you canhire somebody just to do certain
things, just to make it sothat you don't have to do the things
you don't like to do.
Right.
There's a lot of things I'massuming you don't like to do in
your business.
So just offloading the thingsand working on the things that work
best for you and areintentional and, you know, for sure
(19:01):
align with what you're tryingto do is the way I would do it.
I. I am a big fan ofdelegation, folks.
Big, big, big fan.
Just because you can do it alldoesn't mean you should do it all.
It doesn't mean you have, nor should.
You, if you can afford to, or,you know, find some way to even do
exchanges.
A lot of people do serviceexchanges where you're helping each
(19:22):
other in different ways, andthat way you're not necessarily paying
somebody, but you're helpingeach other.
Let's say you wanted me to doyour emails and I wanted you to do
some, like, coaching stuff.
We could do something likethat as an exchange.
So that way we're both gettingvalue out of it, and eventually we're
going to build our audiencesenough together to.
(19:43):
No, I love that.
I'm a big fan of the barter system.
I think it should be used morethan it is.
There are lots of ways to make money.
I remember my very firstcoach, the.
The person who taught me howto be a coach.
He asked me, we've beenworking together for, I don't know,
six, eight weeks.
And he said, so, Heather, whendo you think you can have your first
(20:04):
client?
And I was like, I don't know,three months?
And he said, well, I want youto have your first client in A week.
And I was like, what?
And he said, there are lots ofways to get paid.
I want you to think about outof the box ways to get paid and who
can you talk to?
And I, I did it.
I had two clients within thenext week.
(20:25):
And one was.
She was a guinea pig client.
And I told her that.
And I was transparent.
And I was like, I want yourfeedback and I want your testimonials.
And another was a trade.
And then it went from there.
And the first paying clientthat I ever had is.
Is still a friend.
She still comes to my stuff.
(20:46):
She comes to my.
She's local.
She comes to my networkingbreakfast every month.
And she was like, you changedmy life every day.
I'm grateful that I got towork with you because you changed
my life.
And that was in the beginning,when I didn't even know a little
bit as much as I know right now.
So I think peopleunderestimate that, that value a
lot.
Yeah.
I think everyone says it andit becomes a cliche, but your.
(21:08):
Your network is your networth, right?
Yeah, it's such, Such a.
Like a. I don't like the wayit sounds, but it's.
The truth in it is that if you don't.
If the person you're talkingto doesn't necessarily need your
services themselves, theymight know somebody else that does.
Because as many people as youknow that can connect you with other
(21:30):
people, the more likely youare to find somewhere in this web
of people that you know, youknow, a connection that makes sense
for you.
Yeah, I agree.
Stephanie says it's cheesy,but it seems to be true.
It is true.
Yeah.
And I think that it.
It's.
It's more true even than thebarter system or making money or
(21:52):
whatever.
It's about, like, who fills you.
Who fills you with joy.
Like, who do you enjoy being with?
Who do you.
Who are you grateful and yougrow with?
They say you either rise andfall to the calorie of the people
you spend your time with, andI curate that.
I'm careful about who I spendmy time with and my energy with because
(22:12):
it just matters a lot.
Yeah.
There's a theory that there'slike, there's some circles that go
out from the middle.
In the middle, you have thesmallest number of people, and that
is the people who will doanything, like you're saying, to
help you no matter what, sothere's no questions asked.
They'll help you.
And then in the ring, outsideof that is like, people that you
(22:35):
know, but they Won'tnecessarily jump at the first chance.
You have to kind of work withthem a little bit in order to convince
them or, you know, to get themto become a person in the center.
And then you have the bigcircle, which is like social media.
We're just trying to getpeople to notice you.
So it's taking people from theouter circles and getting them into
(22:56):
the inner circles.
Into the inner circles.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But I think the only way to dothat is to have genuine engagement
and conversation.
And so if I, if I'm moved bysomething that I see on social media,
I will always engage or respond.
Because if, if you've workedhard, it's like, it's the same theory.
(23:16):
If I stop to listen to astreet musician, I tip them because
they're working, they're there working.
And if their work makes mestop and pay attention, then I think
they deserve some sort of compensation.
And so on social media,compensation is engagement.
Like, let me, I love this, Iheard this.
Let me amplify this.
(23:38):
In fact, I did a live showabout that a couple months ago.
How easy it is to be anamplifier if your intentions are.
And it costs you nothing to bean amplifier.
Costs you nothing.
Yeah, no time and very littleof it at that.
And I just love to see people win.
Like, I really, really love tosee people thrive and win.
(23:59):
It makes me really happy.
Yeah.
So I think the best way to doyour best work is to help other people
do their best work.
Right.
That's the only way thatyou're gonna get.
Convince people to work withyou beyond a first initial attempt
is if you've done so good,such a good job that they'll be like,
(24:20):
oh yeah, it makes, it's a nobrainer to work with you again or
to do the next thing or to buyyour next thing or whatever.
There's a guy named KevinKelly who has a very popular article
called 1000 True Fans.
And that's just like, in orderto survive and thrive, all you need
is 1,000 people who are reallydedicated to what you're doing.
(24:40):
And then you can, every timeyou're releasing something or making
something, they're just righton it.
So how do you expand from thateight person circle of superfans
to a thousand people?
Obviously that's hard to scalewhen you're doing one on one personal
relationships.
But that doesn't mean you can't.
In those relationships, youcan either sell a lot of things that
(25:02):
cost a little bit of money,you can sell a few things that cost
a Lot of money.
Or you can do like a mixture.
I do a lot of number of those things.
Yeah.
And that's important to me.
We have a question from Stephanie.
I'm going to ask in just a second.
But for me as a businessowner, as a heart centered, conscious
leader within my integrity, Ihave several ways that I offer free
(25:23):
support because I want it tobe available to everyone.
I have low.
You know, you can get one offSubliminal Audios.
You can join the Sparkcollector for 18amonth.
Like there's that and thenthere's middle price, couple hundred
kind of thing and then it goesup from there.
So I try to make somethingthat will fit everybody's budget
and needs to the best of my ability.
Okay.
(25:43):
Stephanie says, I agree withHeather, that marketing can be draining.
Kevin, can you give some ideasof like two things that we can do
every day to market and, orpromote ourselves and then what is
the difference betweenmarketing and promotion?
So the things that I would doare the things that you find most
(26:04):
enjoyable.
I know that a lot of the timesthat doesn't make you the money,
but if you do it well enoughand you help people enough.
Well, I guess it depends onwhat kind of business you're running.
So Stephanie, you're an artist.
It's a little bit differentbecause you're trying to sell your
artwork.
But they main thing is likemaking those connections deeper in
(26:28):
your case with thosecollectors or people who are interested
in buying your photographs.
And how do you do that?
That is both aligned with youand makes sense for them in a way
that they want to connect with you.
Marketing versus promotion.
Promotion to me, I don't knowwhat the definitions of each of those
(26:50):
are, but promotion sounds tome like a discount or something along
those lines.
That's not how I hear the word promotion.
So that's interesting.
Yeah, I mean, I guess there'sdifferent definitions of promotion,
but in my mind that's what Iwould think about when.
If I'm trying to distinguishthe difference between those, like
promotion.
What's the promo code?
(27:11):
Right.
Yeah.
Oh, that's interesting.
Yeah.
Promotion to me just meanslike, like pushing your stuff out.
But, but I.
But yeah, that's just drawingpeople in.
Interesting.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
Kevin, can you tell folks whatis happening at the conference this
weekend?
(27:31):
What, what kinds of differentthings they can experience?
How much of their time is required?
Because that was for me, Idon't, I don't work on the weekends.
And creativity isn'tnecessarily always about work.
But sitting on a summit for Mefeels like it's part of my job to
expand myself.
But I was like, no, I'm really curious.
I want to do this, but I don'tknow how much I can show up.
So what can people expect?
What kinds of things will behappening and what's the time commitment?
(27:54):
Oh yeah, so it's gonna be from1 to 4pm Eastern time.
So that's, I mean 5pm, that'sfour hours of time.
And I think the biggestdifference between what we're doing
and what most summits are iswe're gonna be doing a lot of interactive
things.
So one of the things I'm gonnabe doing in both days is like fun
(28:14):
activities to get you out ofyour brain and stop thinking.
Like, oh, it's of kind.
I'm just stuck up here all the time.
How do you get out of that?
What are some activities andways to kind of break free from the
thinking brain and just doingand having fun with it?
And that's another thing thatwe're going to try to do is just
have fun throughout the timeand there's going to be networking
(28:35):
opportunities so you can meetall the other people.
That's one of the things thathappens in live conferences and summits
where you get to meet peopleoutside of the sessions, like in
the waiting room.
So we're going to try torecreate that kind of thing within
the summit itself.
So that way you're not justlistening to people talk.
And then other than thatthere's like going to be tools and
(28:56):
resources in order for you tobe more creative.
How do you get out of your head?
How do you stopprocrastinating all this, these kinds
of things and philosophies onhow to live a more creative life.
I love that.
So obviously being there inperson, if you, if you really value
the interactive hands onactivities and the networking is
super important.
If you can't be there inperson, is it, is there a replay
(29:19):
or are there other ways thatyou can get the information?
Yeah, there will be a replayand then if you sign up, we will
be sending the replay for freefor anyone, for everyone.
And if you aren't able toattend, you can see what happens.
Obviously you're going to bemissing out on specific connections
and stuff like that, which I'mnot sure how the main room is going
(29:40):
to look during those times.
We might have to cut out somestuff, but I think the biggest thing
is you can come in and out ifyou want to and that you don't have
to stay the whole Time.
But the experience that we'retrying to create is best if you are
coming to as many things asyou can and connecting with all the
people and doing work thatdoesn't feel like work.
(30:03):
It's going to be, you know,working on yourself and your creativity,
but it's not going to be like,oh, I'm building a business plan,
or something like that.
Yeah, yeah, I love that.
And I just think anything with creativity.
My friend Rachel, who I cocreated the deck of Create Brave
manifestation cards withseveral years ago, she had a creativity
conference in person.
(30:24):
And each room, one was whereyou would, you know, make your own
coloring pages.
And I did one on gratitude andhow you can bring gratitude into
creativity.
And it was just such a fun.
And then we closed.
I don't know how you would dothis virtually, but we closed.
She had a singer, and we wereall in a circle, and she would have
(30:46):
us sing, like, follow her, andwe'd get louder and quieter and we'd
get closer to each other and,like, feel the vibration of people.
It was such a cool experience.
So I think that the reminderthat creativity is subjective, that
your creativity is gonna lookdifferent than somebody else's creativity.
I mean, my podcast, was itChance is the podcast about embracing
(31:06):
opportunity and takingintentional risk for your creative
life.
And we interview people from.
The episode we have out rightnow is with Tad Stromer, who's a
historian but has a hugecreative following and authors and
dancers and, you know, allacross the board.
Creativity has to, like.
It can look and feel like somany different things.
(31:26):
You just have to your own waysto tap into it.
And you.
And I love how you help peopledo that.
Kevin?
Yeah, One interesting thing,you are not able to attend, but Stephanie
and Heather are in a podcastcollective, feminist podcast collective.
And I just had a session thisweek where we were trying to help
me figure out, since my showis called Standout Creatives, how
(31:49):
do I make it more standout andcreative than the typical just, you
know, solo episode and interviews?
And there are a lot of ideasgenerated in this that I can play
with now that there's, like,so many ideas out in the world.
I'm like, oh, wow, there's toomany things now.
And I have to take that andkind of pull it down into the thing
(32:11):
that makes the most sense for me.
So I think one of the things,especially with this summit, is that
you're going to be in thisroom with so many other creative
people in the world, and howdo you take ideas that aren't just
Your own, but through acollective mind.
Group mind, I think, is oftenthe way that the most and best ideas
come out is because you're notspending all of your energy.
(32:35):
You're using the collectivemind sourcing.
Yeah, exactly.
I love that.
I was super bummed.
Yes, I'm super bummed.
I didn't miss your session,but I'm gonna watch the replay because
it sounds like it was a reallycool room to be in.
And you brought up something Ithink is really interesting.
In those sorts of scenarios,you do have to set your own boundaries
(32:55):
and limits because it would beso easy to just be super overwhelmed
and then not do anything.
Right.
So I don't know, you'll haveto tell us what you did, but I think
I would be like, okay, let mewrite all of these down, walk away
and come back and pick one ortwo that I feel really excited about,
and the rest can stay.
Like, I can come back to themlater, but you can't do everything
(33:17):
at once.
How did you handle that?
I am still processing my waythrough all the suggestions, and
I will, at that point figureout what makes the most sense for
me.
I have an idea that there'sgoing to be some improv elements
in it, but I haven't decidedexactly what that looks like yet.
(33:39):
And just having people thathave been guests connect with each
other or, you know, take aunique look at different things,
instead of like an interviewwith one person, how do we take a
roundtable or something like that?
Pull out some of the stuff, dosome experiments.
There's just like, all kindsof stuff that you can.
Oh, a roundtable potentially do.
Yeah, yeah.
(34:00):
So one of the ideas was tolook at a book launch through the
lens of different people whoworked on a single book.
So what did the publisher say?
What did the editor say?
What did the author say?
What did the illustrator say?
And kind of just approach it,like, how.
How would, if we were doingthis from scratch, do it to be the
most successful launch that wecan have?
(34:21):
Right.
That's fun.
That's really cool.
One of the things that I loveabout co hosting my podcast was it
chances.
Alan and I are so different.
We think differently, weobserve differently, and we ask very,
very different questions.
And we both love this becauseI would never have thought of the
(34:42):
questions he would ask, and hewould never have thought of the questions
that I would ask.
And then he.
They.
The guest will answer thatquestion, and then that brings something
interesting to my mind.
And so having that dynamic toplay off of is really, really fun.
And it Takes a little of thepressure off, too, to, to always
be guiding and leading the conversation.
(35:04):
Yeah.
It gives you some opportunityto actually think more about what
they're saying, because whenyou're doing an interview by yourself,
you have to think, okay, whatis the next thing that happens because
of what they said?
But if you're on thesidelines, you get to think, process,
and come up with, you know,the best thing that makes sense within
(35:24):
the context of the overall conversation.
Right.
It's a lot of fun.
All right, well, Kevin, I wantto let you get back.
I know you're prepping for abig summit tomorrow, and maybe you're
going to go outside and be inthe wonderful weather, although it's
warm here, but it's nottropical in Chicago.
But thank you so much forchatting with me.
What do you think of yourfirst Substaff Live?
Oh, it's, it's great.
(35:45):
I love just chatting andseeing people join.
Who?
I didn't expect anybody to join.
I don't know if you did, but,you know, it's always fun to have
people come in just to seewhat you're up to, because we're
not, we're not big audiencepeople, so it's, like, always great
to see that people areinterested to hear what we say.
(36:06):
It is fun.
Stephanie said, great conversation.
We're so glad you were here.
Thanks for engaging, becausethat does make a difference.
I will tell you just forfuture reference, I find Substack
to be the easiest platform togo live on and have people join and
engage.
It makes it so much more funto show up and say yes, because you
feel like you're actuallybuilding community with people instead
(36:27):
of just, like, talking toyourself on your camera.
Yeah, yeah.
Until, until you're like atwitch streamer who has, like, hundreds
of people and you can't evenread the feed anymore.
I, I, I don't have, I have nothad that experience, so.
Yeah, neither have I, but Idon't know how people do that.
I love it.
All right, well, thanks,everybody for joining.
Thanks, Kevin, for hanging out.
(36:48):
Thanks, everyone, and.
Okay, bye.
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