Ep. 69: The School Leader's Playbook (Part 1)

Episode Transcript
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(00:10):
dMarc Isseks (00:00)
Welcome to State of Ed, a podcast about education inside the classroom and out. My name is Marc Isseks. How are you today, Nick?
Nicholas Simone (00:05)
And I'm Nick Simone
Very excited for our guest. How are you?
Marc Isseks (00:11)
Also very excited because today's guest is as close to a household name as there is an education. Joining us is Dr. Todd Whitaker, Professor of Educational Leadership at the University of Missouri and Professor Emeritus at Indiana State University. Dr. Whitaker has authored or co-authored over 60 books, including Dealing with Difficult Teachers, 10 Minute In-Service, and the national bestseller, What Great Teachers Do Differently.
As a preeminent expert on staff motivation and teacher leadership, Dr. Whitaker shares his wealth of knowledge and experience at schools and conferences around the world. And today he's going to share these ideas with us. Dr. Whitaker, welcome to State of Ed Podcast.
Todd Whitaker (00:49)
Well thank you. I would encourage you and your listeners to lower your expectations because the introduction is a lot better than the guest you have. But I truly honored to be here and I'll be honest, I'm even more honored to work with the people in the audience because the people that make a difference every single day are really amazing. And I just appreciate what they do. They've chosen the most important profession that there is and I'm glad to be able to support that in any way possible. But I want to thank them for what they do on a daily basis.
Education is really hard because it's really important and I'm honored.
Marc Isseks (01:22)
Thank you. In the interest of full disclosure, my son is a Hoosier and I really hope that's not a deal breaker for today's conversation.
no, no, is he at IU currently? Got it, no. And I'm still big fans of Indiana State. We had first row basketball tickets for 22 years and I enjoy it. I always call Indiana University the university that refuses to play us anymore because we beat them multiple times in a row and they dropped the series. so, Indiana is a great state. I love it. I was just there day before yesterday presenting in Indianapolis and I love IU. It's beautiful, a beautiful place and a wonderful.
Marc Isseks (01:31)
He is, a senior.
you
University and I appreciate you mentioning it.
Marc Isseks (02:00)
Thank you, and I agree with you wholeheartedly and go Hoosiers. There's a lot of talk about all the problems in education, but in your opinion, what is going right with education today?
well, I think the biggest thing going wrong is just attacks that aren't even real. So just keep that in mind. And I think what's going right is almost everything else. You know, it's really interesting because I'm very blessed. I have an opportunity to work with educators around the world. Multiple times a week. And, it's really interesting because we think about kids nowadays, but one of the things I always ask groups, I go, how many of you feel like at least 90 % of your kids by students? And I'm talking about any.
any grade, any age, any location, doesn't matter. How many feel like in general, 90 % of the students really try hard and try to do the right thing? Everyone agrees. And we just get lost kind of on the other side that we think the world nowadays. And I actually think even though things change all the time, the world is still very similar. You know, I mean, you have students that are high achievers and gifted and you're unbelievable how you learn more from them than they learn from you.
And you have other students who struggle and have challenges and you have to work to be supportive of them. Maybe the percentages have increased a little bit or decreased a little bit on sides, but in general, that's kind of what it's like. You've always had teachers that are outstanding. You've always had teachers that are less effective. You always have principals that are terrific. You also have principals that aren't. And so to pretend that the world is different is in my mind a little unrealistic. I think we misremember.
You know, how you hear people go, you know, when I was young, I did this. And I go, no, actually I knew you then and you weren't effective then either. And it's just cynical, bitter people never have a following, never want to be held in regard. Nobody likes to be around them. And none of that's changed. And positive people who care about you, compliment you, make you feel important, make you feel special, you always want to be around. And that's never changed either. And I think it's just, instead of thinking of
You
Marc Isseks (03:40)
You
Hahaha!
I think it's okay to think of this one student. There's nothing wrong. I don't think it's parents nowadays, but that doesn't mean there isn't a challenge working with this one parent. I don't believe it's teachers nowadays, but are you going to tell me that there isn't a chance there's a teacher that's ineffective? Well, of course not, because we're human. And so that's the way I think we see the world, and that's the way we solve the world also if we have challenges, in my opinion.
You know, Dr. Whitaker, I've heard you speak obviously in person and I've read your work but never had a chance to meet you personally and you have such an engaging personality. I can only imagine what an incredible classroom teacher you are. But I'm just curious, do you enjoy working more with classroom teachers or do you enjoy working more with administrators?
it's really both. think that I, I, I'm very blessed. I spent about half my time with each. If I mean, I haven't ever tallied it. It could be 60 40 or 40 60, but about half with each. I love working with people. I think it's really fun. administration may be a little closer to my heart, but they're both very, very important. And, so I really enjoy both.
I always say if the group's big enough, somebody will think I'm funny and usually we're like two people short. But I enjoy each one, because each one has their own impact and in significant ways.
Marc Isseks (05:19)
Hahaha!
I mean, when you started teaching, when did you think you would go into administration?
I don't know, I started on my masters right away, but a lot of that salary schedule and that kind of thing. And I became a high school principal at 25. And I was a high school principal in a small school and I was varsity boys and varsity girls basketball coach. And before that I was a math teacher basketball coach. so I enjoyed that. For me it's also just hopefully expanding your impact. You know, actually quit law, my undergraduate was business administration and I was in law school. And I quit law school to become a teacher.
Yeah.
And just I wanted to make a difference. And then I became a principal because I was hoping to make a bigger difference. And then I went to university because I was and worked with people becoming teachers and principals because I was hoping to make a bigger difference. Whether I have or not, I don't know. But that's kind of my life. And that's one of things I most enjoy about education. It's a bunch of people who have chosen to influence the world. And their job's important.
Marc,
I just have to ask one more and then we go back to education. Which team was better, the boys team or the girls team?
Well, if they played each other, I know which one it was, but they were both, I love working with both. And it's a completely different puzzle to solve, but I enjoy that. The boys are mad at each other because they won't pass you the ball. The girls are mad at each other because you looked at a guy that they like, you know? And that's a generalization. I don't quite mean it in any way that's biased, but they're both absolutely a treat to work with.
no.
Okay.
Ha
I love working with men's women's sports
Marc Isseks (07:01)
What lessons did you learn as a basketball coach that informed the kind of building leader that you became?
You know, it's really funny. Probably one of the things that I try to have as my, that is one of my cores, is teach, don't
that I just have to teach people how to do it. And so often we try to lead through osmosis that we think, why doesn't this teacher know this? Why doesn't this student know this? Why doesn't this player know this? Well, the first thing we have to sort out, and this isn't me, is are they ignorant or insubordinate?
And we almost always think people are insubordinate and they're almost always ignorant. And ignorant doesn't mean unintelligent. I don't mean that in a put down in terms of intelligence. It's just no one's taught you how to do this. And once I teach you how to do it and you refuse to do it, now I know if you're ignorant or insubordinate. But if I don't teach you how to do it, then what happens is I don't know if you're ignorant or insubordinate, if this makes any sense. And I think that that's the core is teaching people how to do things. Think about basketball players. They want to be good.
Everyone wants to... You're not playing basketball because you don't want to be good. And one of the lessons that I've always carried forward, and this sounds kind of funny, I had a teacher that was not very effective teacher and she was a track coach and she was not a very effective track coach. And every day at practice she'd yell at the kids, run faster. And I talked to her about the fact that I think those kids run about as fast as they know how. Because see, it benefits them to run fast. And if you could teach them how to run faster, I think they'd do it.
But if you tell them to run faster, I don't think they're ever going to just figure it out on their own, because the people that can figure stuff out on their own have already figured it out on their own. It's like, just think about this. Have you ever been in a school where somebody told people to raise their test scores? OK? Well, if you've ever been told to raise your test
I have a question. How many of you have been holding back on that? How many try to keep a little slack in the line when it comes to your test scores? But the reason I tell you to raise your test scores instead of teaching you is because I don't know how.
If I knew how to teach you to raise your test scores, I'd teach you to raise your test scores because it makes me look good too. Does that make any sense? And we're all ego-driven. Don't pretend we're not, we are. Some like to have it more public than others, but everyone's ego-driven. And so I've learned that if I tell you to do something and I don't teach you to do something, typically it's because I don't know how. And that's what I've learned as a basketball coach.
It's amazing how if I teach kids to do certain things better, to shoot better, they'll do it because they want to shoot better. And it's anything. It isn't just shooting basketball, but you just ask it related to sports. And you know, it's funny, I work with coaches. And I work with coaches on how do you get players to do what it is you want them to do because that's the thing we all want to do. I guess the other thing, and I think this is more true in coaching, which is the opposite of what we see every day.
One of my main things that I believe is we don't have to prove who's in charge. Everybody knows who's in charge. And the more we try to prove it, the more people try to prove you wrong. And when I became a coach, one of my goals was I'm never going to yell. And the thing I think that's funny is I think coaches have the least reason to yell. Do you know why I don't need to yell? Because I'm the coach. I determine if you play. I determine plays I run for you. I determine if you're on the team.
Marc Isseks (10:10)
You
I determine if you start, why would I ever need to yell? I don't even understand it. And the reason fans act like that is because coaches act like that. There's no question about that. And I didn't want to yell as a coach because I knew some of my players were going to coach. But they're going to coach four-year-olds in T-ball. And if they haven't seen me be successful and professionally treat people with respect and dignity, how are they going to know to do that?
And you might be thinking, well Todd, they're not all gonna coach us, they are the rest are just gonna coach from the stands.
And when I work in a community, I need to represent to the community and I need to be a model to the community how they're supposed to
how they're supposed to treat people, they're supposed to treat the opposing team, how they're supposed to treat the referees, how they're supposed to, and I'm not talking about cutting down on enthusiasm, I'm talking about belittling and berating, and we see that in the world all the time, and somehow we get confused and think that's right, and in my opinion, that isn't right. But if I don't behave in that fashion, then I'm saying it's wrong. And so that's just me, and it's just a belief system.
And I think you have to lead your belief system, whether as your basketball coach, whether you're a teacher, whether you're a principal, whether you're a parent, or whether you're a human. I just think you have to do it. So I would say all my books are about life. I just pretend they're about education.
That's a great line.
You know, so, but they may not, I may not do it, but that's what I try to do, if that makes sense.
Marc Isseks (11:48)
Nick is a long time varsity basketball coach. So I'd love to hear Nick's reaction to everything that Dr. Whitaker just said.
And I agree with every single thing. I love the line about not having to yell. That's just a very powerful statement.
I used to tell
my players, and this will sound so funny, and I would say it to varsity boys, varsity girls, junior high, elementary, anything. Literally stuff like, if you lose your, and I'm gonna use, I'm gonna gender incorrect, but if you lose your man again, you're not gonna play again the rest of the quarter.
and I only have to say it once. And I have to say it to one player once, and everybody else hears it too. And I'm not trying to prove a message, it's just, but I don't lose control and you're never gonna play again the rest of your life, because then I didn't follow through. But if I say, if you lose your man again, you're not gonna play again the rest of the quarter, all I have to do is do it once.
So, right. I'll get...
I'll give you one quick recent story that I think it kind of reflects what you were saying about teaching kids how to do certain things. The last team that I coached, the couple of kids I keep in touch with, and one kid who was a very, very good high school basketball player, but he was a college baseball player.
We went to his college basketball game the other day, so we're both in the stands. And he said to me, coach, he goes, you always used to tell us, blitz the screen, blitz the screen. He goes, but I never knew how to do it. He goes, now I'm watching it in college. I see what you wanted us to do. And he wasn't, but I'm telling them what to do, but I didn't do a good enough job of actually showing them how to do it. And.
Right, and it's the specificity
that's a differentiator, in my opinion. It's the specificity. I gotta tell you a quick story, and this just happened recently. was, one of the things I did as a coach, right or wrong, instead of having practice, one practice, one day over the holidays, I would show the movie It's a Wonderful Life to my basketball.
And it sounds so funny, but I thought there was more they could learn in there than anything I could learn from me in one practice. Well, you wonder about stuff impacting people. I had a student I coached.
40 years ago. Post on Facebook. I can't wait because this is the first year my grandchildren are old enough to watch the movie It's a Wonderful Life. And the reason I have it is because I had a coach 40 years ago that showed us that at practice instead of us having practice. And that became a tradition in my life through my marriage, through my children, and now this year I get to start it with my grandchildren.
So I guess that's part of why my belief system comes from. But that belief system was there beforehand. That just reinforces, just like Nick, the comment you made reinforces that type of thing. But you don't ever know how your impact is, and once in a while you get lucky and get to discover it.
That's an amazing story and you know and then you know to transition back into like the education world it's the same thing with teachers who get frustrated and Marc says all the time you know just because I showed you something on the screen doesn't mean you're actually understanding it or learning it and teachers will
get flummoxed by, but I taught them the Monroe Doctrine. They copied it in their notes. How did they get that question wrong? And I think that gets to the essence of what you think great teachers are doing differently.
Yes, right, and it's, I'm gonna use a quick example and I'm gonna use a hillbilly term, secretary, okay? A principal who's new to a school, they don't have to be a new principal, but new to their school. Did you know the secretary wants to know how they want them to answer the phone?
until they answer the phone. Then they don't want to know how you want them to answer the phone. And it's a difference between establishing expectations and correcting behaviors. And what's really strange is we're afraid, if we think it's an insult to a secretary to share with them how we want them to answer the phone. But what's strange is the better they are, the more they want to know. Because if the secretary's outstanding, do you know what he or she's thinking when the new principal comes in? Give me a challenge because I'm the best secretary you've ever had. Please let me show you that.
Give me the opportunity to show you that I'm better than anybody you've ever worked with before. And you know what? When I tell them, teach them the first day how I'd like them to answer the phone, they'll never botch that up the rest of their time. But if I wait two weeks and then tell them I'm correcting their behavior and 17 years later, when I go to their retirement ceremony, they go, I love working with you. My biggest thing was I still regret the first two weeks I didn't answer the phone correctly, because that's the way high achievers think, if that makes any sense.
Yes.
And they don't take it as an insult. It's an opportunity to show you that I'm going to be the best you've ever worked with. And that's what high achievers like to do.
Marc Isseks (16:41)
Speaking of high achievers, so we do have a lot of school leaders who follow our podcast. So what are three things that school leaders can do tomorrow to make a positive impact in their school?
Okay, well tomorrow's Sunday, so if they could relax and... But anyhow, I think that...
Marc Isseks (16:54)
Hahaha.
You
Well, I think you have two ways to improve your school. Hire better teachers and improve the ones you have. I think everything else is a waste of time, in my opinion. But I think it's teaching things like that you're the filter. You're in charge of what comes out of your mouth and what doesn't. And you teach everyone else that they're the filter, too. I always say when the principal sneezes, the whole school catches a cold. And when the teacher sneezes, the whole class catches a cold. And when food service sneezes, bring your lunch.
But it really is, and it's also 10 days out of 10, I think that's also part of it. I think it's every day we treat people with respect and dignity. And other professions don't have a 10 day out of 10 standard because they're not as important. Education just has a 10 day out of 10 standard. But that's how come we need time off, we need breaks, we need holidays, we need vacations because what we do is not the hours, it's the intensity. That's really what's different is the intensity of the job and education.
is much more difficult. What's an uninterrupted lunch? What does that even mean? You know I always ask educators, how many of you is at least 7.30 a night free, can relax enough to go get settled in on the toilet? You know, I mean, it's aware of that and other professions don't have the intensity. They may have the hours, but they don't have the constant intensity of educators. And so I think it's that you're the filter. I think that's 10 days out of 10. And I think the other thing is just compliment people.
Just compliment people. The reason compliments have so much power is because we receive so few. And I would say look for the, even look for the good parts even if you have to squint, but just have that tone every day. And it's not a false, people who complain about someone being toxic positive, it's just people who are toxic negative. You just make them look bad, so they don't like it. But it's just compliment people.
That's how you get people, you reinforce them, you provide a direction, you make them feel valued, you make them feel important. Confidence is the most valuable gift a leader can give their teachers. And confidence is the most valuable gift the teachers can give the students. Just make people feel important because they are important. And one way to make them feel important is just help them get better.
You know, in my mind, it's just help people get better. You feel more important. You feel better. You feel more ready to take chances, to take risks, to work with others. Your energy level goes up. And I think that that's, those are the things in my mind every leader can do from the very beginning. And then we go from there.
That was like a master class intro in educational leadership.
Marc Isseks (19:29)
So why aren't they?
Why aren't they?
Because we're surrounded by so much average we start to think average is right.
In your school, and I'm saying this in general, don't mean it's anyone's individual school, in your school, if no one's ever dealt with the ineffective teacher and the leader tries to appease the ineffective teacher, then what happens is when we become a principal, we don't know how to deal with the ineffective teacher and we think we're supposed to appease the ineffective teacher. And the challenge is, what is a culture most determined by the worst behavior the leader's willing to tolerate?
And what happens is if you don't deal with your ineffective people correctly, your effective people not only resent them, they resent you. But if I've never seen it, you know, like one of the guidelines is without question, and almost all my books are based on research. I just take the research out because I'm afraid no one will read it. But things like great principals without exception have faculty meetings, teachers look forward to and value without exception.
Marc Isseks (20:27)
You
But if I never worked with a great principal, when I was a principal, I mean, when I was a teacher, potentially, faculty meetings were kind of a joke. And then I became an assistant principal and faculty meetings were kind of boring. And then I become a principal and I think faculty meetings are supposed, it's okay that mine's a joke and it's boring. But if I'd worked with one great principal, do you see how at the very least I'm going, I have to make sure my faculty meetings are valued. And I try down that path versus accepting not valued.
And I think it's just things like that. it's funny, I've gotten now more into classroom management, which sounds so funny because I've learned this. What percent of teachers would like their job better if they were better at managing their classroom? The answer is 100 % because classroom management's selfish. And if you think of anything, everyone does the best they know how at classroom management because if you could get your kids to behave better, you'd get your kids to behave better. But it's teaching them how, not telling them to do it. That's like telling you to raise your test scores. It's like saying manage your classroom.
But if I can teach you specifically how to manage your classroom, think of how much your opinion of me goes up. And think of how much your morale, your satisfaction at work, your interest in staying in teaching would go up. I think it's just we're used to people complaining, so we complain. And we noticed in our school, especially if we were average, the teacher who was the very best teacher
was oftentimes ostracized by average and below average people. we don't understand. The best people are the most important, not the worst people. And we make the worst people out to be the most important, not the best people. And it's just a mistake we make in life all the time, in my opinion. And high achievers are lonely, so we have to understand how to lead high achievers differently than we lead other people. But the more high achievers you have, the more high achievers you attract.
And I think I agree with everything you said and I think what happens is some teachers who could go into that great category, they get so frustrated by not being acknowledged or supported or encouraged that they just kind of lose their steam because they feel like they're not appreciated.
Sure, you're not valued. And it's so much work to be, and I think more than they lose their steam, I think it's just they now, the only place they focus it is in the classroom. So they don't try to make a school-wide impact because they've gotten put down for making a school-wide impact. As long as they can secretly be that way in their classroom, they'll go ahead and, because they care about students and they're not gonna quit, they've just quit making, potentially trying to make a school-wide impact.
because that hasn't been valued, reinforced. I call it punishing people for being good. It's that you ask the best person to do bus duty and change the curriculum. And it's sort of like, and I'm gonna use word secretary again just because we all know what that means regardless of what we think of it. I never asked my best secretary to fold and staple. I asked my worst secretary to fold and staple.
because I don't ask my best secretary to fold and staple because they can do so many things so much more significant that other people can't do. But if I don't ask my worst secretary to fold and staple, they don't do anything. And then my best secretary has to do these things and fold and staple, if this makes any sense. So the same way, I delegate and all my teachers are involved. I just have to put the importance of the task with the importance of the person. I always say the problem isn't
that we ask ineffective people to do important things. The problem is we ask effective people to do unimportant things.
in addition to the important things. But I need to save, we're gonna do a complete hypothetical and pretend Marc's good. Okay, so anyhow. How come Nick thinks that's funny or than you do Marc? I don't even get that. But Marc, see what happens is, wherever you are, and I talk about superstars, backbones, and mediocre, and I give you definitions so you know, you read them and you know where you are and you know what you can be and you know how to do it. That's important.
Marc Isseks (24:23)
You're not far off, yeah.
But if you, Marc, if you're...
below average and I give you nothing to do, the rest of the people not only resent you, they resent me. But I can't ask you to re-alter the math curriculum if that's not your skill set. But I can't ask my best teacher to do the math curriculum and do the holiday party because then I punish them for being good. Does this make any sense? So I've got to save the most important people for the most important task, the average people for the average task.
and the less effective people for the less important test. But I make sure they know they're all important. I'm not saying, here you go, loser, you do that. That's not it. I'd never introduce it like that. And I reinforce you. But I give you something you can accomplish. One thing we know, and you all are experts at this more than I am, one thing we know, when babies are born and we want to get them talking and communicating, we talk to them at a level slightly higher than their level.
So when they're first making sounds, we're going, and we're literally saying, say mama, say dada, say whatever words it is, say mama, things that are just above them. And as they move up, then you move up yourself to have them do sentences or say bye bye, whatever this is. It's the same thing we have to do with adults. We're all 13 years old. It's the same thing we do with adults. All of my adults, I'm always helping, but I have to help at the level they're at to have them move up to another level.
versus asking someone who's less skilled to do the most important task and to ask someone who's highly skilled to do the least important task, because I'm not moving them up then, if that makes any sense. And none of this is an insult. I make everyone valued. It's just, I'm valuing you because this is where you are, but yet you can move here and you see how you can continue to scaffold up, if that's the right word. But if you're here, I'm insulting you if I treat you as if you're here.
But I have to have the confidence to differentiate between people versus blanket monkey people and just throw the same thing on everyone.
It's such a great observation because when I'm listening to you, I'm saying to myself, what we do is we create positions and then fill them with people instead of hiring people and allowing their skill set to shine. So we hire four assistant principals and we basically just divvy up instead of saying, well, what are you best at and allow those assistant principals to do those jobs.
But that's the, know, or the same thing even with teachers. You know, everybody has to have the exact same schedule. They have to all have a duty. And instead of putting teachers in a position where they can do what they're best at, or even counselors, know, counselors just get, they just get a caseload instead of, yeah, instead of, well, who's better at scheduling and who's better at college advisement and who's better. But these, those are systemic challenges that.
half of it.
I think are very, very difficult to overcome in the short term.
But they're not over difficult to overcome in your school. See, what happens is we think we can mandate effectiveness and we can't. However, we can improve people classroom by classroom, school by school, and district by district, in my opinion. My most recent book, and I don't like to, I'm not a book salesman, but my most recent book is called How to Get All Teachers to Become Like the Best Teachers, because in my mind, that's the solution to education. Because in every school in New York, in Missouri,
and anywhere else around the globe, you have at least one teacher that's cracked the DaVinci Code. You know, have at least one teacher that's figured it out. And you may have way more than one. I don't mean that as an insult to teachers, I'm saying, but you have at least one. And if you have one, then it's possible in your school with your leadership, with your budget, with your kids, with your community, with your parents, with your school board, with your governor, with your commissioner of education, it's possible. So instead of trying to innovate, it's so much easier to replicate.
because someone has innovated to the point of success in your school, in your setting, with your kids, with your community. So it isn't society today, it isn't kids nowadays. Somebody's cracked the Da Vinci code. So how do we replicate? that's, I've been working on that for years in terms of presenting and this, and I finally wrote it, and the response has been great, but it's because we realize we can teach people how to do this. So I don't know about,
systematically because I'm not smart enough, but I know what to do in my school.
and the great teachers know what to do in their classroom, but they don't know how to change the system. You know, it's really funny. One of my favorite things I hear, and favorite like laughing, I think it's ironic, when people go parents nowadays, teachers go parents nowadays, and you know what I say? You better be great with these kids or they're gonna be the parents nowadays. So what are you doing so they don't become the parents nowadays?
And I don't mean it mean, it's just true. And look at your opportunity because of parents nowadays. And I don't believe parents nowadays anyhow in terms of a generalization, but look at your opportunity. So these kids come from parents that you don't like whatever, believe in whatever this is. Look at the opportunity you have as a teacher now. Thank goodness you're the teacher, because you're not going to allow this kid to become a parent like that.
So I totally agree with you. There are great teachers everywhere. You know, Marc and I have encountered them and they're so inspiring. Can you tease a little bit about what you think we can do or how we can get other teachers to replicate them? Because I got to pick up that book, by the way. I'm going after this podcast to pick up that book. No.
Sure.
No, well, you can always return it.
I suggest people buy them Xerox them and return them, but that's your call. Sure, I think it's teaching people the difference between right and wrong. I mean, I think it's teaching them how to do it, teaching the secretary how to answer the phone. Sure, let me give you an example here. And I hate to give one example, but I'm just going to give quick example. Assemblies, you ever, you know what assembly is? Whole school assembly?
No, no,
The best teacher in a school, and I ask my teachers, I teach my teachers this, the best teacher in a school when they take their kids to an assembly, who do they sit by?
Marc Isseks (30:41)
kids.
the kids, but they don't sit by the kids randomly. Which kids in particular do they sit by?
Marc Isseks (30:45)
the ones that have the greatest likelihood of disrupting the assembly.
the ones that are concerned.
Right,
okay, and let's pretend Nick is the troublemaker. Hey Nick, put out the cigarette. I don't care if it's a jewel. Anyhow, let's pretend Nick is the troublemaker.
Marc Isseks (30:55)
I like this scenario better, just for the record.
Great teachers and average teachers both sit by Nick. Ineffective teachers don't sit by Nick. And I asked the teachers, what do the ineffective teachers do? And they go, stand against the wall, leave the room, not go in there, grade papers, text on their phone. See, what happens is the ineffective people didn't know that you knew. But now you know they knew, okay? But they didn't learn from me, they learned from their colleagues. But we're not done. Okay, so, but there's still a difference between superstars and backbones.
The ineffective people, the mediocre, that's what they do. They don't go in there, they don't even supervise their class. But the superstars and backbones, let's pretend Nick is the troublemaker. A backbone goes into revenge mode. And they go, Nick, you're gonna sit by me at this assembly, you're gonna sit by me at every assembly the rest of year. Because of your behavior, you're gonna sit right next to me at this assembly. That's revenge mode. Revenge is for suckers. If you saw the movie The Sting, Harry Gondorf knew that.
Any leader that's going after revenge is not a leader. I mean, I'm just letting you know that. No matter what level it is, they are not a leader. So, Nick, you're going to sit by me and what happens is, do you see how I demonize Nick? The great teacher, in a great teacher's classroom, everything seems like it's random and there's not one single thing that's random. Nothing's random. And instead, the great teachers walking in their class to the assembly, they stop, the kids walk by, guess when they turn in and coincidentally,
walk into the assembly when Nick walks by. And the great teacher goes, Nick, we get to sit by each other again. This is the third assembly in a row. I remember the last one, the birds of prey ever since that, every night I dreamed they swooped down and just took you away. That's what I dream, they just swooped down. Well, we get to sit by each other again. And what happens is the great teacher does it in prevention mode. The great teacher looks out the windshield.
The ineffective teacher looks out the rearview mirror. The great principal looks out the windshield. The ineffective principal looks out the rearview mirror. The great parent looks out the windshield. The ineffective parent looks out the rearview mirror. The great politician looks out the windshield. The ineffective politician looks out the rearview mirror. So what's happened is, every teacher thinks they're right because we let people student teach with average teachers. And we assign them average mentors.
So how on earth are they supposed to know how to be great if you, the principal, gave them an average mentor and let them student teach with an average teacher? You ruined their career. And what happens is once I teach my teachers this, but I teach them before the assembly because I don't want revenge. I want prevention. I teach them before the assembly. And now do you see how, you know what great teachers do, you know what average teachers do, and you know what ineffective teachers do. So now, Marc, you're completely in charge of which one of those categories you want to be in.
However, if you're one of the ineffective people standing against the wall, I'm going to deal with you. But I'm only going to deal with you as an individual. I'm never going to talk about it again with the faculty. called a blanket monkey. Instead of me dealing with you individually, Marc, I throw it on. You ever seen a principal talk to all the teachers about one teacher? And good people, hey, sometimes some of you are coming late. Sometimes some of you, who's offended? The good people. And you know what they're thinking? What are you talking to me for? She's not even here yet. You know, I mean, it's...
It's, but it's understanding this. Because if I'm someone and I've only worked with average people, I think average is right. And I've seen my average superintendent blanket monkey the principal. Some principals have not turned in their report yet because the average superintendent got blanket monkeyed by the state department. And then the average principal blanket monkeys their teachers and says some teachers have not turned in their grades yet. So how do we get out of that cycle? Well, it's individually we teach people. That's how come I write books
so you know exactly what to do. I'm not trying to be cute or funny. It's just so you know exactly what to do. With difficult parents, I need you to know how to start the call. I give you the words. I don't want you to have to think of it. I give you the words. And if you have better words, use yours, don't use mine. I don't mean it like these are perfect, but they'll work. I teach you when you meet with a parent where to sit, how to start the meeting. What if they say this? What if they say this? What if they say this? What if they go off task? How do you refocus on the future?
What stem do you start with? Every phone call you make a parent start with the exact same stem. Don't start some with, good news, good news. Don't do that because it's not that kind of a relationship. It's a professional, caring, loving, kind relationship. And I'm going to treat every phone call like it's a professional, caring, loving kind of relationship. And people will do it if they know how. It really is. just teach them. I teach you.
I had to invite all my teachers to come in and my new teachers come in and listen to me call challenging parents. Because I wanted them to hear how to do it. And I wanted them to hear I'm going to defend them and I'm going to protect them because that gave them confidence. And confidence, as we mentioned, is the most valuable gift we can give. This is just Todd's opinion. But once I teach you, you'd be... If I teach you something that will help your classroom management and you try it and it works, now you believe in it.
Now you believe in it. Now what's weird is you want to know is there anything else Todd can help you
And I always start with the points of least resistance. And so often, we focus on the points of most resistance. You know what? If you have 40 teachers, my goal, I love to get teachers in each other's classrooms in non-judgmental, non-evaluative ways. So you go in, you're not evaluating others. not, you're just, I get in each other's classroom. Because what happens is all my teachers become like the best teachers because nobody steals the worst idea. You know, you don't go in and go, that idea doesn't work . And what I do, I'm going to try it. You don't do that. But what happens is when I talk about this with principals,
many principals first reactions is these three teachers will never do it. And my reaction to that is, okay, do it with 37 then.
Do it with two. If two teachers go on each other, and I always start with new teachers and best teachers. The best teachers will do it right, the new teachers don't know it's new. And if two teachers do it and it works, you're better off than if no teachers do it. And you never go from zero to 10 without going from zero to one. And we're worried about nine to 10, and I'm never worried about nine to 10. Just think of 37 teachers talk about how great this is, now who's lonely to three people.
Do you think, no this is just amazing to listen to. You inspire me so much, but do you think the truly greatest teachers are mostly born that way and then what we should be doing is having other people try to emulate them and get to as far to their level as possible.
I think that the best people have more talent than average people and it applies to everything. We're just blessed they've applied to education. But sure, if I seek out great people, because then they think of it I don't have to and I can just copy it.
If I'm a new elementary, I was middle school, junior high, and high school. If I'm a new elementary principal, I know that parent pick up and drop off is like the biggest deal in the world. But you know what I'm going to do? Find the three best elementary principals I know and go, how do you do pick up and drop off? And that doesn't mean my school doesn't have a different entrance, a different driveway, a different parking lot, a different whatever. But do you see how their guidance is going to be way, I'm going to be way closer to the solution than on my guidance. So sure, I think they're better at everything.
Cause that's the...
But I go in a store and a store clerk does something, and they do something spectacular. You know what I think? You ever wanted to be a teacher? And I ask them, have ever thought about being a teacher? Because it's the same skill set. And you're exactly right, but they've solved it. The best teacher handles, I forgot who was going to the assembly that's a troublemaker, Nick, I think. The best teacher handles Nick correctly. And as a principal, I'm going, wish I'd have thought of that.
Marc Isseks (38:42)
That's definitely Nick.
But I teach my other teachers that.
It doesn't matter that I wasn't smart enough to think about it. All I need to do is find out who in my school is smart enough to figure it out and then teach everybody else that. And I don't say it's me. I go, you know something I saw somebody do, and I mention the teacher's name if I think that'll help the credibility, but I won't mention the teacher's name if people then are going to want to key their car in the parking lot because they're better than them. And I have to have that delicate balance. But I make sure the teacher knows that it was you that I saw doing that.
Because I want them to have that credibility. And eventually in my school, it becomes safe to out teachers in that way because so many people feel so valued they don't mind. But at the first chance, I'm not going to chance it. But Marc, I'm going to make sure they know it's you, that that's who I got that. I'm going to make sure you know it was you I got that from. And I'm going to explain to you why I didn't out you. I just want to make sure everybody does it. And I don't know if there's any chance that puts pressure on you, that makes you uncomfortable because I have no interest in making you
And I do think the truly greatest teachers in every building have universal respect. I think that there are teachers, yeah, I really do. don't like the key. If they're working as hard as anybody, as talented as anybody, willing to do anything, can reach all sorts of kids, like, know, some of it is just instinct. I think they have respect from everybody. And I love your...
Yeah, no question.
Right. But I can teach you
what their instincts are so that they become conscious to you and then they will become your instincts too.
That's what I love.
Yeah, I love that. It's a great idea. It's a great approach to take.
you
Marc Isseks (40:26)
So can you
walk us through your interview process and how you find the diamond in the rough? Because it's not an easy process and it's highly imperfect. So what do you look for in the candidates, whether they're teaching candidates or administrative candidates, and how do you go about identifying and differentiating between the people who walk into the room, or maybe even before they walk into the room?
Let's go before I'm gonna check references, okay check references Do it have it either of you ever called rough check references Okay, did you know over one-third of the people to get hired in education? Approximately no one's ever checked a reference on and I say praise the Lord because otherwise people like me don't get jobs. So however Does checking references take intelligence? Do you have to be intelligence to call her do you have to be highly intelligent to call a reference?
Marc Isseks (40:56)
Yes.
Well, you have to figure out how to use the phone. After that, you're pretty much home free.
you
So any five-year-old can do it, basically is what you're saying. Do you have to be talented to check a reference? Does it take effort to check a reference? But effort it does take. It doesn't take intelligence or talent. It takes effort. Would you rather put effort into hiring or effort once they're hired?
Marc Isseks (41:27)
Minimal.
Yeah.
You're right.
when you're hiring. You'd rather put effort into hiring because you'd like a talented person. so check a reference. What's the most common question a person is asking any profession when we check a reference? What's the most common question we ask?
Marc Isseks (41:37)
Of course. Of course.
We usually ask about reliability. We ask about attendance. We ask about.
most common
question asked in any profession when we check a reference.
How do you know this person?
Marc Isseks (42:00)
How
do know the person?
The most common question we ask in any
profession, we check our efforts. I'll tell you and you'll agree that's the most common question. It is the most common question. The most common question is, you hire him again?
Okay, and what percent of the time is the answer yes?
95 they could have done something horrific with a turtle and posted it on YouTube and they made that cutoff All I want is great. See what happens is questions like that is all you wants the minimum and I want the maximum Okay, but would you hire him again? You'll tell me yes Okay, and let's pretend who wants to be the principal here that I'm asking these questions for Okay, so I Marc would you hire him again? You're gonna tell me yes, most likely would you agree? Okay, so you say would you hire him again? You say yes. Guess my next question is
you
Marc Isseks (42:44)
Yes.
Would you recruit him?
Is that a different question than would you hire him again? Is that a completely different question than would you hire him again? Okay, so Marc, whether you say yes or no doesn't matter, my questions are the same. I'm really a quick thinker, but I'm more of a deep thinker. And I seem so quick because I've already thought of it, if that makes sense. So that makes it seem quicker than it is. But you said, would you hire him again? You said yes. You said, would you recruit him? Whether you say yes or no, it doesn't matter, but let's say you say yes. My next question is,
Marc Isseks (42:53)
Okay. Yes.
completely.
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
How many teachers do you have in your school? So Marc, how many teachers, how would you answer that? How many teachers do you have in your school? You can go to previous school, you want. 140, okay. You said you'd recruit them. You have 140 teachers in your school. I ask you that question. Guess what my next question is.
Marc Isseks (43:23)
About a hundred and forty.
How many of those 140 would you recruit again?
How many of those 140 would you recruit? So of your 140, how many would you recruit?
Marc Isseks (43:44)
Not 140. Significantly less.
How many of us in it and 40 would you recruit? I know, just make up a number, round up, round up and add one for the person who's watching.
Marc Isseks (43:51)
But they might be watching, so I have to be careful on this one.
No, no, this is hypothetical. Marks
an assistant principle. This is hypothetical.
Marc Isseks (44:02)
So let's say 70 hypothetically.
70, okay.
I know two things now. One, I know how picky you are and aren't. Because see, what's interesting is the problem is not only do we not know the person we're potentially we're trying to find the background on, we don't even know the person we're asking. Is there a difference if Marc said I'd recruit 20 or I'd recruit 120? That's a difference in you, Marc. That's not really a difference in the school. That's a difference in you. Okay, but let's say you said 70.
But it doesn't matter. You could say 20, 120, said 70. Guess what my next question is.
Marc Isseks (44:35)
Why?
Where do they fall in the 70? Is it the 10th teacher you'd recruit, the 35th teacher you'd recruit, or the 70th teacher you'd recruit?
Let's say you say tenth, but it doesn't matter. My next, my question's the same. Let's say you say tenth. Guess what my next question is.
Marc Isseks (44:56)
and the tent do they fall?
Why aren't they first?
What keeps them from being first? What's the difference between them and the first? Marc, am I asking you different questions than you've ever been asked in your life? Am I asking you questions that's really hard to lie to?
Marc Isseks (45:09)
100%.
Absolutely.
But you know what's more important than that? I'm teaching you to think like great principals already think. Any teachers watching that you think principals don't sort teachers in their head, not only are you mistaken, if they don't, you need to get out of that school. Because they don't see a difference between their best teachers, their average teachers, and their other teachers. See, they're not going to personalize anything in their school if they don't see the difference. And if you ask your best principal,
How many employees in your school could you absolutely not live without? Do you know it takes them this long to answer? Mm, seven. Mm, 11, mm, 14. Because what they're thinking is seven, I got a night custodian that doesn't sleep or drink, for sure I can't lose them. I've got one counselor that's outstanding, one secretary that if they had gone, we're closing the school, and four teachers. Any of those seven quit, I'm out. But otherwise, because what I'm doing is I'm forcing you to think like great people think. Okay.
Marc Isseks (45:51)
you
So automatically, do you see how now I know where this person falls in your school? Instead, we ask stuff like, what are their strengths? What are their weaknesses? Well, you know what, Marc? I don't know if they're number 139 out of 140 in your school. I don't know if you're somebody who goes, every teacher's great. Every teacher's great in my school. Every teacher's great. I have no idea. I don't know about you, and I don't know about them, because I didn't ask anything specific. And I'm nice.
I'm just doing this quick because we don't have time and I'm trying to be cute and make sure I engage the audience, but I'm nice. I want to know the truth. I don't want to pretend. And I do stuff like on a 1 to 10 scale, are they on classroom management? You're almost always going to say 8, 9, or 10. Let's say you say 9. OK? Guess what my next question is.
Marc Isseks (46:56)
What separates them between nine and 10?
How many tens do you have?
Do I find out about a nine based on how many tens you have? You go, have 135 tens. Or you go, have five tens. That tells you something about the nine. And then I go, why aren't they a ten? What keeps them from being a ten? What's it every time I'm a ten? But I could ask that related to leadership, morale, attitude, effort level, anything that matters to you. But it's the one to ten scale that's the cutout that's so critical. Does this change asking questions?
This also goes with if I'm at central office, when I have a meeting with principals, this is the kind of information I share with principals. So principals are more excited about principal than they were today. Marc, you heard this. You're going to ask different questions the next time you check a reference, you? So if you came to central office meeting and I just gave you this opinion, you'd love it if two teachers quit. So you could call and check references. I don't mean it in a mean-spirited way at all. You're just going, I'm going to try this.
Marc Isseks (47:48)
1000%.
That's right.
Right, right.
Right. Just the opportunity to try a new, a new thing that's more effective than the old thing.
That's how great principals make
faculty meetings look forward to and value. I give you something you can immediately implement that you walk out of there, you're chomping at the bit, ready to start. And the same way with my principals. Why do we suck the life out of people? You ever been at a district principal meeting? You want to take a letter opener and stick it in your thigh to make sure you're still alive? I mean, I can't do that, but I do it because the people did it to me. Okay, so we've now this. There's two things. One, When I'm interviewing someone,
No matter what I think of them, I want to make sure they want to be in my school. Even if I'm not going to hire you. Maybe you'll be on the sub list. Maybe you'll end up being third choice, but I don't get the first two choices. So whatever it is. So I say things like during the interview, if you want to be a part of the best school in the state of New York, this is the one to come to. And if you don't, I understand because a lot of people don't want to work that hard. But if you want to make a difference from the day you walk in the school, this is the one to be at. See, I don't have a pecking order. I don't have a seniority list.
I don't hire new teachers to fall in line. I hire new teachers to form new lines. I don't hire new people so they become like the school. I hire new people so my school becomes like them. If you have an opinion, I want you to share your opinion, because I'm not going to hire you if I don't want your opinion. And if I hire you, that means I want your opinion, so you feel comfortable sharing it anytime you want to. And if you want to make a difference from the day you walk in the school, this is the school to come to. But I understand if you don't want to work that.
Superstars, backbones, and mediocres who's attracted to that?
Marc Isseks (49:35)
You want to come recruit for us?
They want to know but I want I want to come and teach your principals how
to do it I want to teach everybody how to do it because they could do it you now know exactly how to check reference So anyhow and then there's my other thing When you ask questions in an interview in my opinion the most important questions are true life situational questions Because when I there's a difference when I have you in an interview. I need to differentiate you from other people
I don't want you to be like other people, because then I don't know who to sort out. So I don't ask stuff like, tell me your strengths, tell me your weaknesses. Nobody's going to go, my strength, I can do the bench press, my weaknesses is I lose my temper and I call kids cuss words. Nobody's going to say that. They do it, but they're not going to say it. So I ask true life situational questions. Here's my very favorite interview question. I'll be honest, if I could ask you this one question, I have sorted you into
within a 10 % range based on your answer. Okay, here's my number one question. Say you're teaching, it's the first week of school. You may or may not know the kids' names yet. And I say that because if you're a high school English teacher, you may have 120 kids. And if you're an elementary teacher, you may have 18 kids with their names taped to the desk. And being able to know names is like spelling. It's a visual memory that's not related to your talent and ability.
Marc Isseks (50:35)
I'm already getting nervous and excited at the same.
you
Spelling is not related to intelligence, but I'd but you I still wish we could do it But that's not it's a different. It's a different piece of mind than intelligence So just keep them up so you may or may not know the kids names yet your first It's the first week of school you're teaching the kid you may or may not know the kids names yet You're teaching and a kid in the middle of the rooms starts talking. What would you So Marc what would you do?
Marc Isseks (51:25)
Well, the young me or the seasoned veteran me because the young me would lose my mind a little bit, make it a big deal, call the student out, do everything that you're not supposed to do.
The season better knew.
The seasoned veteran in you. What would you do?
Marc Isseks (51:38)
make a connection with the student and try to inspire the student to
Okay,
tell me what you'd do. Like, what words would you use? Tell me specifically. Make a connection. Everybody says that. And some teachers do it some don't. What exactly would you do? Right now, class is in session, the kid's sitting in the middle of the room, you're teaching, first week of school, what would you do?
Marc Isseks (52:00)
I just walk over and make my physical presence known to the student. And very often that disrupts the misbehavior because they feel that now I'm in there closer to their proximity. And that sometimes creates a shift in what they're doing and why they're doing it.
Okay, okay,
great. And so no matter what he says, I'm saying this. So it really is incidental. So my feedback is not based on your answer. My feedback is based on my next question. You just think it's based on your answer and that's okay. I go, okay, okay. So and then a few minutes later, you're still teaching and the kid starts talking again. What would you do?
Marc Isseks (52:27)
Ha ha ha.
So same, same idea, except this time perhaps maybe there would be a little bit more like a tap on the desk or something just, just a little like escalating it just a little bit, but not in, not in any kind of, I like, I'm a big believer in nonverbal communication as a way to try to manage, you know, behaviors and misbehaviors in the classroom, because otherwise I have to literally stop what I'm doing and now nobody gets instruction. So I can now just take care of one particular student. And I don't want to do that because that sets the wrong message. Um,
Okay.
Marc Isseks (53:02)
And it also takes away from the perception of who's really in control of the classroom.
Okay, then a few minutes later, let me finish it. In a few minutes later, you're still teaching and the kid starts talking again. What would you do?
I would try to... ⁓ Okay.
Marc Isseks (53:17)
this, well, hopefully at this point, I'm close to the end of the period where I'd have an opportunity to have a conversation with the student at the end. So I don't have to single a student out, in, that, in that moment, but not, but most importantly, not take it personally, and then create the opportunity when I have home field advantage to take care of the situation and, and help the young person understand better what my expectations happens every day.
Hahahaha
And all this stuff.
Okay, is this a true life situational question?
Yes.
Would all of your teachers answer this question the same? No, so I'm differentiating immediately. Do you know why I ask about true life situational questions that involve classroom management? Because this is exactly what you're gonna do. And what you would have said at 22 was exactly what you were gonna do. But do know some people at 22 give answers like you give today?
because I'm assuming now you're 32. some people gain knowledge quicker. Thank you, thank you. We don't have a great estimation, anyhow. But you see how I automatically know what you do. What's funny is we hire people and we don't know what they do. And if I don't know, if you can't handle that correctly, there's no chance you can handle anything, everything else correctly either. But if you can handle that correctly, we can get to everything else. One thing to know, and this is in your school, Marc, and I'm not judging you, I don't even know your school, so I have no idea.
Marc Isseks (54:06)
Very perceptive.
20 % of your teachers at most would do something that doesn't escalate in the answer in the interview because they think they're supposed to prove it's in charge. You would have people who I guarantee you by the second time, maybe the first time, would say, I'd stop and I'd say, do you want to teach? Would you like to take the chalk and teach? Is what you have to say more? And you know what? I need to know that you before I hire you. Because if that's you, I don't want you. Because it's a self-control thing.
And then I also say stuff like, Marc, would you ever call the parents or every single teacher in your school, if I said, you ever call the parents in an interview, what would they say? Of course. And then you know what I say? I'm the parent, call me.
Marc Isseks (55:12)
Of course.
Because you know what I get to hear? Tone and manner. I'm not worried about specific wording because at 22 you're not as sophisticated in thinking through it, but your tone and manner is still going to be the tone and manner you're going to use on that phone.
So that's an example, but don't ask for a ridiculous. Don't go, what if they pull out a bong and they start, the best teacher never thinks about that, but the best teacher does think about what am I going to do if a kid in the middle of the room starts talking? They think about that every day before they teach. They thought about that when they were 11 working with their dolls and teddy bears and then having pretend school. So it's, but it's true life. And don't ask stupid questions like, if you're a cookie,
I think it's so funny when people go, it was so smart because it really threw people off. No, didn't throw them off. What it did is that told them they don't want to work for you. That's what that told them. I don't want to work with weirdo McWeirdo.
That's exactly what that told me. But this true life situational question, the best people have thought about this stuff all the time. And so what I'm getting is tone and manner and disposition of you. A friend of mine owns businesses, hugely wealthy. And you know what he always says? He goes, Todd, I can teach cash register, but I can't teach nice.
And so I don't know if nice is exactly the word I'm looking for, but some ability to gather yourself, some ability to be the adult in your room, because you know what? You've hired 22-year-olds who are the adult in the room. And you have 52-year-olds in your school that aren't.
And they would. And the reason classroom management, because everybody does the best they know how at classroom management. So whatever you think, if you think I'm supposed to prove who's in charge, I'm going to show them right now, I want to know. Because when I hire you, that's what you're going to be doing. I'm sorry to Nick to cut you off. I just wanted to finish the example because Marc was feeling a lot of pressure and we both liked it. So go ahead.
Marc Isseks (57:09)
A lot of pressure. A lot of pressure.
I was trying
to throw Marc a life raft, but...
Marc Isseks (57:14)
Yeah, you gotta
you
Marc Isseks (57:16)
come in a little stronger, Nick. I I was dying out there.
I know,
no, but my comment is irrelevant now, so don't worry about it. Yeah.
But you see how, and I'm
kind, I'm doing this quicker because I'm trying to make it seem like it's up the pressure and I'm trying to be funny and engaging. But I'm really, kind the whole time. And say you're teaching and the first day of school you made a rain and a kid in the middle room starts talking, what would you do? Because I need to know what you do. I need to know what you do.
Marc Isseks (57:31)
It worked.
And by the second and third time, you see, think of the percentage of teachers in your school, in any school, I'm not putting your school down, I'm not complimenting your school. In any school, think of the percentage of teachers that would feel like they've got to draw a line in the sand. A great teacher's first instinct when a kid is misbehaving is to keep teaching and not look at the kid. An average teacher's first instinct is to stop teaching and look at the kid.
ineffective teachers first instinct to stop teaching look at the kid and challenge them and escalate the situation as a Principal I teach my teachers this all the time and I give them exact examples how to do it what this means how people have done it how I see it because they want to be good they want to be good a Quick example I gave and I'm gonna I'll let you all ask any other questions you want but a quick example I give to teachers all the time when you were a student back to when you were a student K-12
When you were a student K-12, as a student yourself at any grade K-12, could you name the teachers in the school that were Yellers? Okay. Could all the kids in your school back then name the that were Yellers? Okay. Could the kids in your current school name the teachers that were Yellers?
Marc Isseks (58:46)
course.
How many of you, I ask the audience this, then, how many of you got into education to be the yeller?
And how many of you didn't know, not only do the kids all know, that your colleagues also all?
And none of us got into education to be the yeller. And you know what we can do is stop. I wish I had some other great solution. I don't. I'm not smart enough. But we can stop. And we can have 2025 be the year we've always wanted it to be. Because it doesn't matter what we did in 2024. You know why? Because it's windshield. It's not rear view mirror.
But you didn't know, your colleagues knew, but they knew.
and all you can do is stop.
And do you see how you set up things? And in my school, who are the most comfortable people? The people doing right. Who are the least comfortable people? The people doing wrong. In most schools, in way too many schools, the most comfortable people are the people doing wrong because the principals avoid them. And the people that are least comfortable, the ones doing right because everybody else is picking at them. They may know they're good, but they're still jealous. You know, I know that teacher's really good, but they're still jealous. And they go, well, you know, it's only because she doesn't have kids.
It's only because, you know, it's just some excuse that has nothing to do with it.
So it's, and it's just, it's just teaching. I hope this is teaching. I hope this isn't telling. It's just teaching. And if you were the yellow, do you see your level of discomfort right now? But how do you get rid of the discomfort? What do you do?
Nicholas Simone (1:00:24)
Stop yelling.
Todd Whitaker (1:00:25)
That's the only way to change your class. I don't have another way. I wish I had another way. I don't have another way. But I don't ever go into that much detail. I just lay that as an example. And I don't point to people because it's a self-reflection. I don't need you to behave when I'm looking. I need you to behave when I'm not.
Stop yelling.
Marc Isseks (1:00:40)
I'll tell you who taught me, I'll tell you, cause I was, I wasn't a terrible yeller at the beginning, but I yelled from time to time because there were a number of people who yelled and I thought at 22, 23 that that's the way you were supposed to be done. But I'll tell you who taught me the lesson that I, you know, I wish I had known you 30 years ago so I could have saved myself the embarrassment here. like who taught me the lesson actually was an 11 year old because I had, I had an 11 year old at the time. This is going back 29 years and his name was Scott.
Okay.
I remember his last name too, but I won't put it out here. But I would give him lunch detention with me because I was told early on that if you don't take care of your discipline issues on your own and you outsource them, then you basically take all of your authority and outsource that as well. So I had my own lunch detentions and he was a frequent flyer with me and he would come in and I would give him the silent treatment because it was supposed to be punishment. Again, this is the 23 year old me.
And one day after like the 10th lunch attention, I finally asked Scott, who was like this cherubic little 11 year old, but at the time he was a demon in my mind and my world. I said, Scott, why do you keep driving me crazy? Keep interrupting the class and keep forcing me to yell. And then you wind up in lunch attention. And he looks up at me and he says, when you yell, there's this vein that pops out in your neck and the class goes crazy.
So I'm like, my God, I've been getting played this whole time because he'll take the lunch detention just to be the guy who got me to do the thing that everybody loves. And that was the end. I never yelled after that because I learned so much from him in that lunch detention. It really was a teaching moment for me. And sometimes the students are your teachers and that's definitely for me one of those times.
you
Nobody repeats
a behavior without a reward and his reward was the kids liked him better because he was making you do the neck thing.
Starting in first, I was terrible in school. Starting in first grade, when I had a teacher who could get yelling, I'd tell all the other students before we walked into class, watch this. And I've never said watch this in a great teacher's classroom because I couldn't push their buttons. In every school, you have teachers that the kids don't know it's possible for that teacher to yell. And you have teachers that don't know it's possible not to yell until the principal teaches them.
But what, Marc, can I tell you something that would have prevented you from yelling if you'd student taught with someone exceptional and your mentor was someone exceptional and the principal at the first faculty meeting of the year talked about why we don't yell in the school. You would have never tried it and you would have come to a better conclusion quicker.
and you wouldn't have learned from whatever the student's name was because he probably wouldn't have been in recess because he was, I missed recess because he wasn't getting the benefit of the the neck vein.
You
Yeah, and so, and then, and that's just, that's just what it is. And that's what everyone wants to be. That's the other thing. I think when it comes to classroom management, I think you don't push, you don't find resistance. But I do, if I tell you to do it and you don't know how, of course you do. I don't tell you not to yell. I give you a reason where it's your benefit not to yell.
because you're only going to do it because of you. And I'm not being critical. We all do. Anything that we benefit from, you don't try to lose weight so your neighbor looks better.
You you try to lose weight so you lose, you know what I mean? I mean, that's the way we all are. And it's okay to be that way. There's nothing wrong with that. It's just, to improve people, I've learned I have teachers, I have to give them two reasons. One, because it's best for the kids, and one, because it's best for you. And the great teachers will do it because it's best for the kids, and everybody else will do it because it's best for them. But either way, we do it, and that's all I care about. I don't care why you do it, I just care you do do it.
It's almost impossible for me to believe that you didn't want to be an educator from day one because you just have such natural instincts as a teacher and a leader. so I just have to ask, did you ever have any teacher in high school or principal in high school that had like the biggest impact on you in your life or a coach or?
When I was in college, I dated a girl whose dad was a high school basketball coach and that's exactly when I decided to try. Like I skipped all my classes my sophomore and junior year in college. I never went. I didn't buy books. I just show up and take the tests. I didn't ever study. I didn't do any literally didn't do anything and luckily I was I always my theory was if wasn't good enough it wouldn't be the minimum and I got to see someone who
was a basketball coach and teacher and whose wife was also an educator and the impact they had. And I was already in law school before I finally made that decision. And I graduated in business administration, so I quit law school and got into education. But for me, there were very, very few people that could get my attention in classes. But that helped me because
I realize most teachers are teacher pleasers and I love to hire teacher pleasers because they're principal pleasers. But many times teacher pleasers don't understand the thinking of people that are non-teacher pleasers. And luckily, that's a gift I have. So I can teach them what to do with non-teacher pleasers. Because in, and it's really true, in my K through doctoral studies, I probably had three teachers I ever tried for.
And I did wonder what they did differently. And that's where what great teachers do differently, the thinking stemmed from. Because they did, how come I paid attention in this, in Mrs. Robinson's class? Because I didn't pay attention in anyone else's class. And what did they do differently? And that was really it. so, but what I really try to do though is I try to teach you how to be the Mrs. Robinson.
without watching the movie, The Graduate. But I tried to teach you how to be that person. And you realize you can be that person. It's just like Marc realizes he can be the person that doesn't yell or doesn't do whatever the different things we talked about. it's incidental. It's just that was the choice that I described. But I want you to realize it at 22. And I want you to realize it within a month of me being principal in your school. And I want you to realize
Yeah
You
before the first assembly what we do at assemblies.
because I want you to do it right. It's sort of like, and this is a hard description because I'm always worried when I say the popular kids table that means like the kids that were popular but mean to other people, but I'm talking about the well-rounded popular Everybody wants to be at the popular kids table. And in my school, I teach the teachers how to be at the popular kids table. Yelling, you can't be at the popular kids table. I'm sorry, you just can't be there. Treating every kid with respect and dignity every day.
That gives you a prime seat at the popular kids table and there's room for all of us. There's room for every single teacher at that popular kids table. Every single teacher. And I just teach you how to be there. And everybody wants to be there. I mean they really do, they want. We all want to be there. And the superintendents teach people how to be at the popular leaders table. It's just they have a different audience, but it's the same audience. And the great teachers, don't they teach the kids how to be at the popular kids table?
in their classroom. know, this is the way to be accepted. This is the way to be respected. This is the way to fit in. This is the way to, know, whatever it is, the words, I'm choosing words that you may not agree with and that's okay. It doesn't offend me. But isn't that what they're doing in life?
And I have to set up a school so my best teachers become the most well-respected. Because sometimes in a school, it's the teacher that has the most money, is the most attractive, used to be a sports star, is local, is whatever, are the most respected. And I don't want you not to be respected, but I need the people who are the best teachers to be the most respected because they have the most influence then. But I've got to teach you what it is they are. And you see, just going in the rooms, Marc, you may hear Nick's really good, but if you go in his room, you're going.
crap, I didn't know it was that good. You see what I mean? Because he has nine of the kids you have and the nine kids behave for him and the nine kids don't behave for you. But seeing it, you see how that's like hearing me call parents and me defending you, defending teachers, that means a lot more than me just saying I'll defend you.
Anyhow, and everyone can do this. There's nothing, there's really nothing special. Everyone can do this. I just, you just need to think like some people think and you can do it. But if you think like average people think, you can't do it. Because you're just stuck in an average world and none of us want to be in that in education. We don't want to be in life, but for sure we don't want to be in it if we're in education.
Can I ask you one, one last question before we, before we.
No, anyhow,
you
go fine, fine, it's Saturday, go ahead.
Just to capture the premise of looking forward through that windshield instead of the rear view mirror. AI obviously is going to play a role in schools, but I'd love to get your take. Do you see it more as a tool that will be used to cut corners for both students and teachers? Or do you see it as something more transformational and taking us to
whatever the next iteration of education could possibly be.
depends if you use the superpower for good or evil. What about crib notes? Or whatever those things that used to, was it book crib notes was the book you could buy that had the, but I never bought it because I never carried any out so it's all stupid. Could that also to help you know do I want to read this play, do I want to read this book, do I want to read this or could you use it to cheat?
I think AI is exactly the same thing. I can show you a couple of examples on both sides, but we don't have time in one of them's personal side,
Do you use your superpowers for good or evil? When a person gets elected, do they use their superpowers for good or evil? And people have to decide, and they hopefully decide before they elect them. And that's not about any particular official. It's at every level. When you were talking about interviewing teachers and hiring teachers, they have superpowers. Are they going to use them for good or evil? And isn't that sort of what you're trying to find out when you're checking references and when you're interviewing?
I mean, that's, and I don't mean good and evil, I don't mean it quite that, but I sort of do mean it like that. It's just a different way of thinking. The principals do they use their superpowers for good or evil? But they all want to use them for good. It's just we have to teach them how to, we have to hire correctly, and we also then have to teach them how to accomplish what they want to accomplish in a way that focuses on a positive, windshield-looking thing versus not.
So it's sort of like when you had the student in, if it was recess, you were holding them in or after class, whatever it was. Are you using that to berate and belittle or are you using that to help him learn a vision of what he wants, what you want tomorrow to be? And those are the two, and you have a choice of either one of them. And the recess isn't even a negative thing if you could help them develop ability to be more skillful. And you also can talk to them during recess.
versus threatened to hold them in for recess. It can be, Nick, do you have just a second? And Nick and I talk during recess. Or Nick, you're going to sit next to me, just like the assembly. It's exactly the same thing. And so you have that power. Good question. I don't know. I'm not smart enough. I still rely on AI actual intelligence. And so I tend to lean that way. But we have a choice in every advancement. It's like the internet. Is it good or bad? Yes. The answer is yes.
you
you
Social media, is it good or bad? Yes. Yeah. And I mean that sincerely. It's incredibly good and it's incredibly bad. Depending on the operator, it isn't the thing that's there. It's like clip charts. Are they good or bad? Yes. They have a great teacher's class, they work well. In a poor teacher's class, they're terrible. It's never the clip chart. then, but what we do is we're too afraid to deal with the ineffective teacher, so we outlaw clip charts. And we never move forward. With the ineffective teachers in the school, they're just using a tool worse than clip charts.
Because if they had a better one, they would have been using that instead of clip charts from the very beginning.
So, but we get confused. It's a lot easier to just blame and generalize and talk about kids nowadays and parents nowadays. And, you know, I always think the downturn in society is when Hannah Montana changed her name to Miley Cyrus. I really do. think up till then we were doing well, but at that point, we kind of... So.
I've watched pretty much every episode of that show because my daughter was just at that age when that was incredibly popular. So I get the reference.
Yeah, so I don't even care if they don't, funny to me. The only other thing I want to leave your audience with is, and I'm not usurping the influence of Nick and Marc, I'm not influencing the influence of people that are in your area, I'm nobody. But if I can ever help you call or email me, my website's ToddWhittaker.com, I don't have any people. Education, it's really funny, teaching is the most isolated profession, which is weird because you're never alone. But leadership,
I laughed and I don't get it.
is the same way in that you may never be alone, but at times you can be lonely. And as long as you're on the side of the kids, I'm on the side of you. So anytime you want, call me, email me. I'm happy to visit. The neat thing is I'll never know if you actually don't do it because we're done with the phone call and we're all, all, all, then and you can pretend you're gonna do it and just leave me alone. But call me or email me anytime. I will tell you the truth, look you in the eye, and I will work to not hurt your feelings, but I wanna help you.
That's it. I'm nobody. I want people to help me too. So this isn't like it's a one-way I'm a genius. It's just I'm a neutral outsider who is on your side and who was willing to tell you the truth and then you can decide whether or not to do it.
Well, I wish every teacher and every administrator had the opportunity to spend time with you because your insight is about as impactful as I think I've ever heard in education. Everything you say, I think the strength of what you're doing is that it's all practical and realistic and it's genuine. You really get it. know, so often teachers are sick of hearing the jargon and...
you the advice that really doesn't make a difference, you get it. That's why I'm still gonna never be able to accept that you were not a born teacher from day one. Thank God for the ex-girlfriend's father because without that, we'd be in trouble because you are an incredibly powerful voice in education. So thank you so much.
You're awfully nice. I'm
the first person in my family to graduate from college. And so that's a nice compliment. I grew up and my dad used to say those who can do and those who can't teach and I realized he just misspoke. meant to say those who can teach and those who can't go into some less significant.
Wow.
Thank you so much for your time.
Thank you. It's an honor to be a part of your group. It's an honor. So same way, if I can ever help you, me a holler.
Thank you.
Thank you, Dr. Whitaker. If you'd like to catch up on previous episodes of State of Ed Podcast, you can catch us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon, or on the web, stateofedpodcast.com, where you'll find links to what we've discussed, including Dr. Whitaker's information and his website and everything else. You can also follow me on Twitter @marcisseks or at marcisseks.com on YouTube @edupyro E-D-U-P-Y-R-O. Please check out my new book, Captivate, Engaging and Empowering Students in a World of Digital Distractions.
It's available on Amazon and love for you to take a look at that. Dr. Whitaker, thank you so much. We've had an amazing conversation and you sharing your insights were just completely inspirational and there are about 40,000 different quotes that I really want to just pull and keep right by my desk because the insights are incredibly valuable and we really can't thank you enough.
You all are very kind. It was a treat for me. Special treat.
Thank you.
you. Now don't leave yet. Let it upload.

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Ep. 69: The School Leader's Playbook (Part 1)

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