June 28, 2025 • 19 mins
In this conversation, Marc and Nick discuss the intricacies of lesson planning, emphasizing the importance of structured questioning and engagement techniques. They explore how to effectively plan lessons that foster student participation and understanding, while also considering the role of AI in education and the balance between creativity and structure in teaching.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:10):
Nicholas Simone (00:00)
The whole point of having teachers write down essential thought-provoking open-ended questions is because as new teachers you don't have the skill always or the flexibility on the spot to ask a question that's going to elicit the type of responses and discussions that you want. So I think previously especially when I was trained they told us to put that in a section of the lesson plan.
But of course, now I understand and I agree with you, what good is putting all the questions in one section, and you could use your analogy because it's obviously very well done with a screenplay.
Marc Isseks (00:44)
Well, because A lesson plan is like a screenplay. A screenplay is not designed to be read. It has no literary value whatsoever. It's a blueprint for a movie. And a lesson plan is blueprint for teaching and learning. So it makes no sense to follow any particular prescribed format.
other than something that is logical to how the lesson will unfold because that provides maximum value for the teacher who's using it. But to just pile all the essential questions in one part of a plan in no sequence without saying exactly where in the lesson it's going to have maximum impact or maximum value for engaging students or generating discussion, it's a waste of time and we don't have time to waste. That's the bottom line.
Nicholas Simone (01:30)
But that's it.
Marc Isseks (01:30)
So you're spending time
to plan, you should be able to use the plan exactly as you've planned it. And to your point about veteran teachers, see to me this is Dunning-Kruger effect like, you know, like the most glaring example of Dunning-Kruger effect.
(00:31):
Most people think that they are good enough that they can come up with the kinds of questions well phrased That you were just describing that they can come up with those and improvise those five times a day for 180 days a year and Statistically, most people will not be able to do that as well as they perceive themselves being able to do that That's the reality and then so now you have to fight people's ego to try to let them know that they on
on the spot impromptu aren't as good as they think they are. If they had the opportunity to plan those questions, they could probably be exceptional and infinitely better. But to think that you're going to be able to on your feet, be able to phrase questions well enough, consistently enough that you don't need to have a plan.
where you have thought about these questions just lacks the kind of hubris that I feel like we need to have, excuse me, lacks the humility that we need to have in order to make the changes that we need to see in education.
Nicholas Simone (02:41)
I would say, maybe what I meant was that veteran experienced, seasoned, talented teachers are able to phrase questions off of what the students provide. That's what I mean. I don't mean the initial spark of the discussion, but if a student is responding to a lesson on the election of 1876,
Marc Isseks (02:53)
Better.
Of course, of course, of course.
Nicholas Simone (03:11)
veteran teacher will be able to follow up with that but you need the initial question planned appropriately to get to that next point. That I agree with you.
(00:52):
Marc Isseks (03:14)
Agreed.
Correct, correct.
And very often, questioning is taken for granted and it's a skill like anything else and you can create confusion by improperly phrasing a question and you can diminish the kind of engagement that you would have the potential to attain ⁓ with a poorly phrased question. It's just true.
Nicholas Simone (03:42)
But
somebody would have to ask ⁓ anybody on the college level, explain your rationale for why ⁓ teachers in training need to have seven page lesson plans and what's the value of this to their growth as a teacher.
I'm not just dismissing, of course I am dismissing it because I know I've been teaching for 31 years, but I just want to know what the rationale is. Tell me how this makes them a better teacher rather than letting them dedicate the time to coming up with a lesson that's actually more engaging.
Marc Isseks (04:21)
Exactly, exactly. If they had unlimited time, if time is not a factor, of course, right? A 30 page lesson plan. But time is a factor. Energy is a factor. Focus is a factor. It's all reality, the reality of a modern teacher and their time is very, there are tremendous demands on the time of a modern day teacher.
(01:13):
Nicholas Simone (04:25)
Good. All right.
Do you think a lesson plan template should resemble 95, 98, 100 % of the same boxes in every discipline or do think it should vary from one discipline to another?
Marc Isseks (05:03)
I think it could vary. See, I like to think of lesson planning in terms of activities, blocks, a motivational activity, things that have a sequence to them. And then you try to find the sequence of blocks that makes the most sense to create and sustain the most engagement that you can for the duration of the lesson. so there's a strategy there and there's an art form there because
Nicholas Simone (05:07)
Right.
Marc Isseks (05:31)
The curriculum is very straightforward in many courses. You teach this, then you teach that, and then you teach that, and here are the terms, and here are the things to know. But like, how do you make that engaging in each block? Like to think about the beginning, middle, and end of each block.
as its own separate individual kind of component or story just like just like a great chapter in a novel is not just getting you from one point to the other in terms of plot but each chapter if it's written well has its own beginning middle and end in some way or cliffhanger in some way that creates energy and momentum to get you into the next chapter that's a that's a well written book so a well-taught lesson and a well-planned lesson I think has to share a lot of those qualities but
If you're just listing things, then you lack the forethought of viewing the lesson in terms of storytelling momentum and building dramatic tension in whatever it is that you're teaching.
(01:34):
Nicholas Simone (06:29)
So do you almost feel, as I listen to you, think you're saying maybe there should be, okay, I'm just gonna talk it out. The first block is clearly how am I going to motivate the lesson? How am I gonna get the interest of the students? We know anybody that's read your book that that's priceless. Then the next segment could be a review of something previously learned, could be.
just a connection into what you're about to learn. Then obviously there is the new material that is going to be covered. That's another block. There is some form of an activity, whatever that activity may be, whether it's a continuation of a discussion, whether it's something kids have to produce. And then if time permits, there is a closing.
So you saying that you think that should be the broad boxes, but then when you now put the material inside of those boxes, a math lesson plan might differ from a business lesson plan, might differ from an English lesson plan, but that should be the basic structure of how you start the lesson. Yeah, okay.
Marc Isseks (07:41)
Yeah.
Right, right. The same
way I would argue that the X's and O's of a horror film are going to be different than the X's and O's of a comedy, but structurally they're going to follow a similar dramatic arc because that's how you sustain interest for the audience. think there's a lot of good parallels to be had with comparing both forms.
Nicholas Simone (08:13)
Do you think
(01:55):
it's helpful for teachers to estimate how much time they want to devote to each segment of the lesson?
Marc Isseks (08:23)
You know it's funny that you say that.
I've had so many post observation conferences with teachers over, you know, 14 years or 15 years now, you know, as a supervisor and, uh, more than that. What am I talking about? 20 years as a supervisor. And, um, a lot of times when we're having conversations and teachers were reflecting on their lesson, like, Oh, I know, I, you know, I didn't get to this or whatever it is. And
I said, well, you know, there's really, there are like, there's a good reason not to get to the quote unquote end. And there's a bad reason not to get to the end. The bad reason is if it was all you the whole time and you didn't get to the end, well, that was all on you because you were doing everything, all the heavy lifting the whole way. But if you generated interest and students were participating and that participation went longer than you anticipated because you were getting great discourse, great insight, a lot of cognition from the students and they were demonstrating an understanding of what they, what you were trying to teach.
And because of that you didn't get to a particular point like that's the best reason on earth not to not to get there Because you've accomplished pretty much exactly what you set out to do but to get back to your previous point ⁓
For me, what's even more important than a quote unquote final summary is I think an application or a synthesis activity where the students can demonstrate their understanding in a new context. And that's where the motivation can come back full circle because you can bring the motivation back and now look at it and kind of interrogate it through the lens of what was just learned.
and now they could apply those conceptual understandings and curricular understandings in a new context. And I can't think of a better way. That's transfer, right? So that's the best way to demonstrate your understanding that you could take this and apply it now in a new context to be able to do that as a very high level of cognition and a high level of skill. And to me, that's even transcending simply answering the aim as a final summary.
(02:16):
Nicholas Simone (10:23)
I have a follow-up question but still go back to my initial question. Should a teacher say three to six minutes on this, five to seven minutes on this? Do you think it's worthwhile? Do you think it's not helpful?
Marc Isseks (10:25)
Haha.
I think that's fair to try in the planning process. think that's fair to try to guesstimate. ⁓ And it also will keep you on on target because
Nicholas Simone (10:43)
Okay.
Marc Isseks (10:49)
If you're planning to dedicate 20 minutes to something, it clearly has more curricular value and instructional value to you. So to not know that, and then the thing that has lesser value can take over and become that 20 minute activity. And now you have created imbalance in what your objectives were. So I'm all for that. And that will help you kind of like transition or segue from the thing that might be going a little bit long into the thing that you want to spend really the crux of your lesson.
going over. I think yes, just to keep you on some semblance of a timetable, so you keep in proportion the value and the time of what you're trying to accomplish.
Nicholas Simone (11:32)
Okay, and now when you talk about having students synthesize what they've learned, so let's use more specific concrete examples. Let's say during a lesson, okay, so let's say during a math lesson, look, at some point in a math lesson, you do need to show that you can do the math problems.
(02:37):
So there might be some sort of an activity where they're either working individually with pairs in a group and they have to perform the operations or whatever it is that they're doing. Let's say in a social studies lesson, and these are just basic examples. Let's say in a social studies lesson,
Marc Isseks (11:57)
course.
Nicholas Simone (12:17)
Students are given an excerpt from a speech and they're asked to analyze it, purpose, point of view, know, intended audience. Okay. So there's nothing, you know, I mean, that can be considered an activity. That could be something that they have to do to produce. Now, for your idea of how they can synthesize that, do you almost look at that as the closing of the lesson where they can take
You know, so I'm just doing this top of my head. The purpose of ⁓ Richard Nixon's speech to the nation and now ask them, well, how would a politician today possibly use the same philosophy that Nixon was using in a different context, right? Okay, in a math problem. ⁓
Marc Isseks (13:07)
Exactly right. Exactly right. Or if Richard
Nixon were president right now in this particular situation, based on what we've seen, what might be some of the things that he would do or say and why, and how does that connect like to support that through everything that was taught prior.
Nicholas Simone (13:14)
Right.
(02:58):
And that
can be how students are synthesizing the material, but it's also a closing. Okay.
Marc Isseks (13:29)
Right. And it doesn't have to be
that elaborate. mean, you could make it as elaborate as you want because again, you don't have unlimited time, but you can still something like that can, be a three or four minute activity. It doesn't have to be a 20 minute project or a two day project.
Nicholas Simone (13:33)
Right.
No, and it doesn't have to be an act. It can be a discussion where students just verbalize their answers. Right. And I'm not prepared for like a math example, of course, but, but, but they can, yeah, but you could still attempt to ⁓ ask students, you know, could you think of a context where
Marc Isseks (13:49)
Two minute discussion. Exactly right.
(03:19):
It's harder with math. It's definitely harder with math, but doable.
Nicholas Simone (14:11)
this skill that we particularly focused on today could be utilized in a real world.
Marc Isseks (14:16)
Right.
I, I also think with math, your opportunity to, to launch into and build momentum into the next day's lesson is right at that point where you're talking about great. Now you understand all of these concepts and how to do this particular thing. What would happen if this changed? What would happen if this happened instead? So now they have to apply everything that they know and try to figure out like, well, ⁓ how do we now tackle this new element or this new component to the problem? And then that could be,
your kind of launch point into the next lesson. ⁓ And you're building a little bit of cognitive tension and dramatic tension getting into the next day as well. ⁓ So sometimes you don't even have to, they don't even have to perform that act of synthesis. You can just create a cliffhanger with the promise of that synthesis happening in the next class.
Nicholas Simone (15:15)
I mean, I love having the conversation, but it also makes me feel more and more ⁓ emphatic that I just don't think teachers can pull this off with three preps and then two new preps the next year. Because it's hard work, it's important work, but to ask anybody to try to come up with like 15 different lessons.
Marc Isseks (15:43)
All
(03:40):
that's right.
Nicholas Simone (15:45)
It's, know, and that's why I think too many of them, you know, they hand in their lessons and submit them on time. But let's be honest, nowadays, I'm sure there are teachers all over the country that are just going to like submit lessons from AI. But they're not good lesson, right? But they're not, but they're not taking the time to work through it the way you're preaching.
Marc Isseks (16:02)
without they're already doing it. They're already doing it.
Right. And some of the ideas
could be great and you could nowadays you could train a bot to like think like you and put these components into a lesson and give you ideas to help trigger the thought and allow you to work more quickly. So it's still you. It's still you, right? If you are writing the prompt for the bot to, to reflect the work that you want to see created, it's still you in some way. It is.
Nicholas Simone (16:11)
Of course.
But,
(04:01):
yes, but...
Marc Isseks (16:37)
It's not, it's, you know, it's
not, it's not perhaps as authentic as we would traditionally hope to see, but it's still, ⁓ putting my voice into the bot asking for that prompt to kind of reflect my voice, but to do.
the calculations if you will like for me quickly so then I can approve or disapprove of of what it is you know give me five give me five ideas to synthesize this lesson based on blah blah blah blah and now I choose to think so I'm still I'm still doing the work I don't have to generate the idea necessarily that's we're gonna have to get we're gonna have to cross that chasm because we're here we're here I know it's a very difficult thing to think about
Nicholas Simone (17:19)
Okay, but...
I don't even, I actually don't think it's that difficult because AI is only as good as the information it has available. So when you think about, because you know how much I love your teacher's edition ⁓ reference in your book, the teacher's edition of a textbook.
Marc Isseks (17:46)
Don't
(04:22):
slam on the table though, because it sounds like an earthquake.
Nicholas Simone (17:49)
⁓ wow, okay.
The teacher's edition of a textbook had nice activities on the side. It did not have full lesson plans. It had nice activities and there are sometimes where you can purchase resource guides.
and they're nice. And you can go to in New York State, I mean you can go anywhere, but New Visions and they're good ideas. But none of them are whole products. You, so you as a teacher have to create that finished product to make it work for you and your talent, but more importantly for the students in front of you. And my concern would be that
teachers are overworked they just don't take the time to do it they hit lesson plan and that's what they're working off of.
Marc Isseks (18:47)
True.
True. Or, or, the educational and instructional leaders of given schools and districts and municipalities and states recognize this, throw out the six page nonsense lesson plan philosophy, which is logistically not viable for real life classroom teachers. Just is not. Pie in the sky, yes. Practical, no.
(04:43):
throw that away and go back to Remember when we wrote curriculum guides 15, 20 years ago, we were writing for the teacher.
We were not just saying like, here's how you break down Reconstruction in three lessons. We were writing to try to spark ideas for the teacher. So that would be faster and easier for them. Give them things to latch onto if they want, or they can go off in their own direction. But we want to get their wheels turning with the curriculum that we're providing. And it's not just about like, here's a YouTube link that you could go to. It has to be more thought driven and
Once you give teachers that are, and so AI to that extent, very much like the textbook can give you those snippets that you can plug and connect into the format that you're looking for. So you can work more efficiently, work faster, avoid burnout, but still remain creative and innovative. I think that's the bridge that we have to cross and the more, and it's definitely happening in places, but to do that more so.
but not have the pendulum swing to the point where, and This is the part that frustrates a lot of educators in some states where they require this, we're gonna do everything for you. Here is your script. We've taken all of the creativity out for you, all of your personality, all of what you bring to bear. We're gonna basically turn you into the bot. See, I want the bot to help us.
maximize and magnify our personality and our ability to educate. Some of these other programs want to turn the educator into the bot where you, we're just going to program you and you're just going to go into the classroom and do the things that we tell you. That is leading to more burnout than creative burnout in my opinion.
Nicholas Simone (00:00)
The whole point of having teachers write down essential thought-provoking open-ended questions is because as new teachers you don't have the skill always or the flexibility on the spot to ask a question that's going to elicit the type of responses and discussions that you want. So I think previously especially when I was trained they told us to put that in a section of the lesson plan.
But of course, now I understand and I agree with you, what good is putting all the questions in one section, and you could use your analogy because it's obviously very well done with a screenplay.
Marc Isseks (00:44)
Well, because A lesson plan is like a screenplay. A screenplay is not designed to be read. It has no literary value whatsoever. It's a blueprint for a movie. And a lesson plan is blueprint for teaching and learning. So it makes no sense to follow any particular prescribed format.
other than something that is logical to how the lesson will unfold because that provides maximum value for the teacher who's using it. But to just pile all the essential questions in one part of a plan in no sequence without saying exactly where in the lesson it's going to have maximum impact or maximum value for engaging students or generating discussion, it's a waste of time and we don't have time to waste. That's the bottom line.
Nicholas Simone (01:30)
But that's it.
Marc Isseks (01:30)
So you're spending time
to plan, you should be able to use the plan exactly as you've planned it. And to your point about veteran teachers, see to me this is Dunning-Kruger effect like, you know, like the most glaring example of Dunning-Kruger effect.
(00:31):
Most people think that they are good enough that they can come up with the kinds of questions well phrased That you were just describing that they can come up with those and improvise those five times a day for 180 days a year and Statistically, most people will not be able to do that as well as they perceive themselves being able to do that That's the reality and then so now you have to fight people's ego to try to let them know that they on
on the spot impromptu aren't as good as they think they are. If they had the opportunity to plan those questions, they could probably be exceptional and infinitely better. But to think that you're going to be able to on your feet, be able to phrase questions well enough, consistently enough that you don't need to have a plan.
where you have thought about these questions just lacks the kind of hubris that I feel like we need to have, excuse me, lacks the humility that we need to have in order to make the changes that we need to see in education.
Nicholas Simone (02:41)
I would say, maybe what I meant was that veteran experienced, seasoned, talented teachers are able to phrase questions off of what the students provide. That's what I mean. I don't mean the initial spark of the discussion, but if a student is responding to a lesson on the election of 1876,
Marc Isseks (02:53)
Better.
Of course, of course, of course.
Nicholas Simone (03:11)
veteran teacher will be able to follow up with that but you need the initial question planned appropriately to get to that next point. That I agree with you.
(00:52):
Marc Isseks (03:14)
Agreed.
Correct, correct.
And very often, questioning is taken for granted and it's a skill like anything else and you can create confusion by improperly phrasing a question and you can diminish the kind of engagement that you would have the potential to attain ⁓ with a poorly phrased question. It's just true.
Nicholas Simone (03:42)
But
somebody would have to ask ⁓ anybody on the college level, explain your rationale for why ⁓ teachers in training need to have seven page lesson plans and what's the value of this to their growth as a teacher.
I'm not just dismissing, of course I am dismissing it because I know I've been teaching for 31 years, but I just want to know what the rationale is. Tell me how this makes them a better teacher rather than letting them dedicate the time to coming up with a lesson that's actually more engaging.
Marc Isseks (04:21)
Exactly, exactly. If they had unlimited time, if time is not a factor, of course, right? A 30 page lesson plan. But time is a factor. Energy is a factor. Focus is a factor. It's all reality, the reality of a modern teacher and their time is very, there are tremendous demands on the time of a modern day teacher.
(01:13):
Nicholas Simone (04:25)
Good. All right.
Do you think a lesson plan template should resemble 95, 98, 100 % of the same boxes in every discipline or do think it should vary from one discipline to another?
Marc Isseks (05:03)
I think it could vary. See, I like to think of lesson planning in terms of activities, blocks, a motivational activity, things that have a sequence to them. And then you try to find the sequence of blocks that makes the most sense to create and sustain the most engagement that you can for the duration of the lesson. so there's a strategy there and there's an art form there because
Nicholas Simone (05:07)
Right.
Marc Isseks (05:31)
The curriculum is very straightforward in many courses. You teach this, then you teach that, and then you teach that, and here are the terms, and here are the things to know. But like, how do you make that engaging in each block? Like to think about the beginning, middle, and end of each block.
as its own separate individual kind of component or story just like just like a great chapter in a novel is not just getting you from one point to the other in terms of plot but each chapter if it's written well has its own beginning middle and end in some way or cliffhanger in some way that creates energy and momentum to get you into the next chapter that's a that's a well written book so a well-taught lesson and a well-planned lesson I think has to share a lot of those qualities but
If you're just listing things, then you lack the forethought of viewing the lesson in terms of storytelling momentum and building dramatic tension in whatever it is that you're teaching.
(01:34):
Nicholas Simone (06:29)
So do you almost feel, as I listen to you, think you're saying maybe there should be, okay, I'm just gonna talk it out. The first block is clearly how am I going to motivate the lesson? How am I gonna get the interest of the students? We know anybody that's read your book that that's priceless. Then the next segment could be a review of something previously learned, could be.
just a connection into what you're about to learn. Then obviously there is the new material that is going to be covered. That's another block. There is some form of an activity, whatever that activity may be, whether it's a continuation of a discussion, whether it's something kids have to produce. And then if time permits, there is a closing.
So you saying that you think that should be the broad boxes, but then when you now put the material inside of those boxes, a math lesson plan might differ from a business lesson plan, might differ from an English lesson plan, but that should be the basic structure of how you start the lesson. Yeah, okay.
Marc Isseks (07:41)
Yeah.
Right, right. The same
way I would argue that the X's and O's of a horror film are going to be different than the X's and O's of a comedy, but structurally they're going to follow a similar dramatic arc because that's how you sustain interest for the audience. think there's a lot of good parallels to be had with comparing both forms.
Nicholas Simone (08:13)
Do you think
(01:55):
it's helpful for teachers to estimate how much time they want to devote to each segment of the lesson?
Marc Isseks (08:23)
You know it's funny that you say that.
I've had so many post observation conferences with teachers over, you know, 14 years or 15 years now, you know, as a supervisor and, uh, more than that. What am I talking about? 20 years as a supervisor. And, um, a lot of times when we're having conversations and teachers were reflecting on their lesson, like, Oh, I know, I, you know, I didn't get to this or whatever it is. And
I said, well, you know, there's really, there are like, there's a good reason not to get to the quote unquote end. And there's a bad reason not to get to the end. The bad reason is if it was all you the whole time and you didn't get to the end, well, that was all on you because you were doing everything, all the heavy lifting the whole way. But if you generated interest and students were participating and that participation went longer than you anticipated because you were getting great discourse, great insight, a lot of cognition from the students and they were demonstrating an understanding of what they, what you were trying to teach.
And because of that you didn't get to a particular point like that's the best reason on earth not to not to get there Because you've accomplished pretty much exactly what you set out to do but to get back to your previous point ⁓
For me, what's even more important than a quote unquote final summary is I think an application or a synthesis activity where the students can demonstrate their understanding in a new context. And that's where the motivation can come back full circle because you can bring the motivation back and now look at it and kind of interrogate it through the lens of what was just learned.
and now they could apply those conceptual understandings and curricular understandings in a new context. And I can't think of a better way. That's transfer, right? So that's the best way to demonstrate your understanding that you could take this and apply it now in a new context to be able to do that as a very high level of cognition and a high level of skill. And to me, that's even transcending simply answering the aim as a final summary.
(02:16):
Nicholas Simone (10:23)
I have a follow-up question but still go back to my initial question. Should a teacher say three to six minutes on this, five to seven minutes on this? Do you think it's worthwhile? Do you think it's not helpful?
Marc Isseks (10:25)
Haha.
I think that's fair to try in the planning process. think that's fair to try to guesstimate. ⁓ And it also will keep you on on target because
Nicholas Simone (10:43)
Okay.
Marc Isseks (10:49)
If you're planning to dedicate 20 minutes to something, it clearly has more curricular value and instructional value to you. So to not know that, and then the thing that has lesser value can take over and become that 20 minute activity. And now you have created imbalance in what your objectives were. So I'm all for that. And that will help you kind of like transition or segue from the thing that might be going a little bit long into the thing that you want to spend really the crux of your lesson.
going over. I think yes, just to keep you on some semblance of a timetable, so you keep in proportion the value and the time of what you're trying to accomplish.
Nicholas Simone (11:32)
Okay, and now when you talk about having students synthesize what they've learned, so let's use more specific concrete examples. Let's say during a lesson, okay, so let's say during a math lesson, look, at some point in a math lesson, you do need to show that you can do the math problems.
(02:37):
So there might be some sort of an activity where they're either working individually with pairs in a group and they have to perform the operations or whatever it is that they're doing. Let's say in a social studies lesson, and these are just basic examples. Let's say in a social studies lesson,
Marc Isseks (11:57)
course.
Nicholas Simone (12:17)
Students are given an excerpt from a speech and they're asked to analyze it, purpose, point of view, know, intended audience. Okay. So there's nothing, you know, I mean, that can be considered an activity. That could be something that they have to do to produce. Now, for your idea of how they can synthesize that, do you almost look at that as the closing of the lesson where they can take
You know, so I'm just doing this top of my head. The purpose of ⁓ Richard Nixon's speech to the nation and now ask them, well, how would a politician today possibly use the same philosophy that Nixon was using in a different context, right? Okay, in a math problem. ⁓
Marc Isseks (13:07)
Exactly right. Exactly right. Or if Richard
Nixon were president right now in this particular situation, based on what we've seen, what might be some of the things that he would do or say and why, and how does that connect like to support that through everything that was taught prior.
Nicholas Simone (13:14)
Right.
(02:58):
And that
can be how students are synthesizing the material, but it's also a closing. Okay.
Marc Isseks (13:29)
Right. And it doesn't have to be
that elaborate. mean, you could make it as elaborate as you want because again, you don't have unlimited time, but you can still something like that can, be a three or four minute activity. It doesn't have to be a 20 minute project or a two day project.
Nicholas Simone (13:33)
Right.
No, and it doesn't have to be an act. It can be a discussion where students just verbalize their answers. Right. And I'm not prepared for like a math example, of course, but, but, but they can, yeah, but you could still attempt to ⁓ ask students, you know, could you think of a context where
Marc Isseks (13:49)
Two minute discussion. Exactly right.
(03:19):
It's harder with math. It's definitely harder with math, but doable.
Nicholas Simone (14:11)
this skill that we particularly focused on today could be utilized in a real world.
Marc Isseks (14:16)
Right.
I, I also think with math, your opportunity to, to launch into and build momentum into the next day's lesson is right at that point where you're talking about great. Now you understand all of these concepts and how to do this particular thing. What would happen if this changed? What would happen if this happened instead? So now they have to apply everything that they know and try to figure out like, well, ⁓ how do we now tackle this new element or this new component to the problem? And then that could be,
your kind of launch point into the next lesson. ⁓ And you're building a little bit of cognitive tension and dramatic tension getting into the next day as well. ⁓ So sometimes you don't even have to, they don't even have to perform that act of synthesis. You can just create a cliffhanger with the promise of that synthesis happening in the next class.
Nicholas Simone (15:15)
I mean, I love having the conversation, but it also makes me feel more and more ⁓ emphatic that I just don't think teachers can pull this off with three preps and then two new preps the next year. Because it's hard work, it's important work, but to ask anybody to try to come up with like 15 different lessons.
Marc Isseks (15:43)
All
(03:40):
that's right.
Nicholas Simone (15:45)
It's, know, and that's why I think too many of them, you know, they hand in their lessons and submit them on time. But let's be honest, nowadays, I'm sure there are teachers all over the country that are just going to like submit lessons from AI. But they're not good lesson, right? But they're not, but they're not taking the time to work through it the way you're preaching.
Marc Isseks (16:02)
without they're already doing it. They're already doing it.
Right. And some of the ideas
could be great and you could nowadays you could train a bot to like think like you and put these components into a lesson and give you ideas to help trigger the thought and allow you to work more quickly. So it's still you. It's still you, right? If you are writing the prompt for the bot to, to reflect the work that you want to see created, it's still you in some way. It is.
Nicholas Simone (16:11)
Of course.
But,
(04:01):
yes, but...
Marc Isseks (16:37)
It's not, it's, you know, it's
not, it's not perhaps as authentic as we would traditionally hope to see, but it's still, ⁓ putting my voice into the bot asking for that prompt to kind of reflect my voice, but to do.
the calculations if you will like for me quickly so then I can approve or disapprove of of what it is you know give me five give me five ideas to synthesize this lesson based on blah blah blah blah and now I choose to think so I'm still I'm still doing the work I don't have to generate the idea necessarily that's we're gonna have to get we're gonna have to cross that chasm because we're here we're here I know it's a very difficult thing to think about
Nicholas Simone (17:19)
Okay, but...
I don't even, I actually don't think it's that difficult because AI is only as good as the information it has available. So when you think about, because you know how much I love your teacher's edition ⁓ reference in your book, the teacher's edition of a textbook.
Marc Isseks (17:46)
Don't
(04:22):
slam on the table though, because it sounds like an earthquake.
Nicholas Simone (17:49)
⁓ wow, okay.
The teacher's edition of a textbook had nice activities on the side. It did not have full lesson plans. It had nice activities and there are sometimes where you can purchase resource guides.
and they're nice. And you can go to in New York State, I mean you can go anywhere, but New Visions and they're good ideas. But none of them are whole products. You, so you as a teacher have to create that finished product to make it work for you and your talent, but more importantly for the students in front of you. And my concern would be that
teachers are overworked they just don't take the time to do it they hit lesson plan and that's what they're working off of.
Marc Isseks (18:47)
True.
True. Or, or, the educational and instructional leaders of given schools and districts and municipalities and states recognize this, throw out the six page nonsense lesson plan philosophy, which is logistically not viable for real life classroom teachers. Just is not. Pie in the sky, yes. Practical, no.
(04:43):
throw that away and go back to Remember when we wrote curriculum guides 15, 20 years ago, we were writing for the teacher.
We were not just saying like, here's how you break down Reconstruction in three lessons. We were writing to try to spark ideas for the teacher. So that would be faster and easier for them. Give them things to latch onto if they want, or they can go off in their own direction. But we want to get their wheels turning with the curriculum that we're providing. And it's not just about like, here's a YouTube link that you could go to. It has to be more thought driven and
Once you give teachers that are, and so AI to that extent, very much like the textbook can give you those snippets that you can plug and connect into the format that you're looking for. So you can work more efficiently, work faster, avoid burnout, but still remain creative and innovative. I think that's the bridge that we have to cross and the more, and it's definitely happening in places, but to do that more so.
but not have the pendulum swing to the point where, and This is the part that frustrates a lot of educators in some states where they require this, we're gonna do everything for you. Here is your script. We've taken all of the creativity out for you, all of your personality, all of what you bring to bear. We're gonna basically turn you into the bot. See, I want the bot to help us.
maximize and magnify our personality and our ability to educate. Some of these other programs want to turn the educator into the bot where you, we're just going to program you and you're just going to go into the classroom and do the things that we tell you. That is leading to more burnout than creative burnout in my opinion.
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