2025 BONUS : Supreme Court Ruling on Trans People

1) Full text of the ruling

https://supremecourt.uk/cases/judgments/uksc-2024-0042

2) legal cheek commentary

https://www.legalcheek.com/2025/04/supreme-court-rules-woman-has-biological-meaning/

3) Lauren on the T Elders podcast

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yO4_9hJCQFI

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https://hollykirstensongs.com/

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Episode Transcript

(00:04):
A quick note before you watch this video or listen to the
audio podcast. This is an emotive subject and
one that I had to change my perspective on while I extinct
Christianity. It is a journey that has forced
me to face up to my own feelingsand it is for this reason that I
open this episode with a deserved apology.
The choke you hear is real. Additionally, and more

(00:27):
importantly, at about the one hour mark, I clumsily use the
phrase genuine women when referring to CIS women.
I hope it's obvious from the context what I mean and what my
intention is, but that does not excuse using a phrase that
devalues and delegitimises my guest.
I was wrong and as you'll hear, I am graciously corrected.

(00:50):
If CIS people are to be allies in trans conversations, then it
is essential that we educate ourselves in the language that
we use. So please, when you hear me use
that phrase, see it as an educational opportunity and if
it makes you flinch when I say it, then I apologise in advance.
I too am learning to be better. With that said, here is my

(01:14):
conversation with this is a special episode.
This will not have an episode number.
I will insert this in just for context for everybody.
This is Easter Monday. This is the Monday that Popeity
has croaked it and we're talkingabout transgender issues.
That's the day that we're recording this.

(01:35):
What I've got, it's still unbelievable.
It is. I've got a series of episodes
scheduled or to be published or to go live all the way for every
three weeks or so right away till the middle of July.
What's going to happen is this episode is going to be inserted
in front of all of those episodes.
It'll have a bonus label. It will not have an episode
number, and all of those episodes will be bumped back one

(01:56):
or maybe 2 weeks. So that's the context of what's
going on here. I've got David from Skeptics and
Seekers here on the line. David, it's been a while since
we've spoken about 12 hours or something like that.
So how are you, Sir? Good day to you.
Gasping for air, I can finally breathe again now that that 12
hours is. It's about 3:30 in the morning

(02:17):
or something ridiculous like that where you are.
Hope you've had a couple of ciders to wake you up.
Good cup of coffee in a Styrofoam cup.
Good for you. So good for you.
It's before midday, so I'm drinking water, obviously.
Excuse me? If you say so.
And also on the line is Lauren. Now, Lauren, you did come in

(02:40):
Incognito on a very early episode of Stern Belief where
you chatted to Andrew and myselffor a little bit about their
about Christianity and about trans and LGBT issues.
Thank you for that conversation.It's been too long since you we
had that conversation with you. You and I have known each other
or known of each other for around about 20 years.

(03:01):
I was going back through documents.
I think we very first met in 2003 at a go karting event
between run by the fabulous track day company, Booker Track.
And it was go karting event between various go karts.
And I don't have a photo of you from that event, but I have
photos of other club participants from that event.

(03:24):
And we all looked ridiculously young.
But that's my first memory of ofmeeting you.
We are both fans of Japanese cars.
You support the wrong car, Mark.I am obviously a major Honda fan
and in my photos there, this is hilarious and this is nothing to
do with the conversation we're going to have.

(03:45):
But in my photos there, I've gota photo of the team results and
I was in team four and I think you're in a team called track
day Queens and you were the 5th place team.
So there we go from the very beginning.
I am better than you. And with proof that not only do
I like the better Japanese cars,but I'm a better Carter, or at

(04:06):
least my teammates were better than your teammates.
That's that's probably what happened.
Yeah. So so that's basically the setup
is that's how far we go back. And for context for this
conversation, I was very much a Christian at that time.
I was a fundyish Christian. My attitude towards gender, my

(04:30):
attitude towards same sex attraction was regressive.
It's probably the most polite way to to express that.
And I do know in those in those early years on public forums
that you may not have seen at the time, but certainly probably
saw later, I said unhelpful things.
So I want to put it straight outthere because I've never had the

(04:51):
opportunity to say this before because I would like to
apologise because I owe it to you.
I don't owe it to the transcript.
I should not be tearing up. I'm sorry.
That's OK. Let's just get that one out of
the way from now on. We're friends, so I owe you and
I owe the community. And I do regret my past

(05:14):
attitudes. It was attitudes I had because
of the religion I was a part of.I can't entirely take that blame
because I was taught how to think and I was taught how to
believe. But that's how I was and I'm a
better person for it now. And I'm a better person in that
aspect for having shared religion.
So I now want to be an ally and I now want to be a friend.

(05:35):
So welcome to Still Unbelievable, Lauren.
Thank you. Thank you, Matt.
That's really appreciated. And and yeah, I can tell it
means a lot. And I think, I think going back
to those times though, there wasa lot going on because I
participated in Formula Women, didn't I, which was an all
female racing series. And you would have known me then
and, and. I did enjoy watching that

(05:56):
actually, and I was disappointedthat it didn't run to another
season, but I did enjoy that. I mean, I think it's said, but
but my whole life was put out there, wasn't it on national TV
and the press wasn't it? And I got was a kicking and but
people were different then. And and then I I don't know that
my previous, I did a podcast about this last week.

(06:17):
I'm saying about how people weremuch more supportive and there
wasn't, you know, any real criticism.
They were just like, oh, OK, butyou know, and no real
negativity. I think nowadays I think if I
was in an all female series, they would say that I, I would
shouldn't have a place in it. I think that's our attitudes
have changed, you know, But I don't want to go off on a

(06:38):
tangent. I want you to, I guess keep this
on topic I suppose. Well, those things are relevant
and and I think for for you to say here and now that your
experience, yeah, there were some rough things.
There were some things said in more than one national paper,
and I remember one specific national paper which was
grotesquely unkind about you during that Formula woman

(07:01):
experience. But beyond that, I remember each
of the women that were involved in this had a face, a face
interview, had a piece to camera.
And you were open in that piece of camera where you said, I'm
here, I'm Lauren, I'm a female driver and I'm also trans.

(07:23):
And you said that straight on national television.
And there wasn't a big shock horror.
If the same must happen today, there would be.
And that feels like in one particular aspect, society has
become a little bit more poisonous and a little bit more
unfriend. Maybe I should drop the word
little from that. More poisonous and more
unfriendly to people like yourself.

(07:46):
And that feels sad. And again, I'm being really
understated in that. That is, that feels like a
regression, that feels like morehatred, that feels like more
fear, that feels like an unpleasantness in the atmosphere
for people who simply want to exist.

(08:09):
And I don't know how to express that in words beyond it's
negative. I don't know how to express it
any more than that. Yeah, it's everything's become
more toxic and I think that there are a lot of people have
suffered for that. I mean, generally I'm OK.
I've got a huge amount of support.

(08:30):
I think in my day-to-day life people don't really know I'm
trans. So it's just kind of like, you
know, crazy to think that. I go to a trans protest in
Manchester and I asked to speak and they say to me this is only
for trans women to speak. It's like the ultimate faux pas
really isn't it? But I just so you.

(08:50):
Need You need 2 identities. Now you need an identity that
says I'm a woman, and now you need an identity that says I'm a
trans woman. And you need to have one in each
pocket. I mean, I'm pretty open about it
because I don't really care anymore.
I think that I've been through the therapy and, and in more
recent times and, and I don't have the shame thing.
I've dealt with all the trauma. So I feel like, but but as a

(09:13):
technically a trans elder, somebody who, you know,
officially transitioned 29 yearsago, but really transitioned
probably a bit more than that, more like about 31 years ago,
is, is that if I don't say something for trans people, you
know, who are just trying to deal with their feelings now
about who they are, then, you know, I'm not helping.

(09:35):
And I think back in the day whenI knew you, Matt, when I first
met you in 2003, I've sat and people have made jokes about
trans people in front of me and I've said nothing because I
didn't want to be pulled into that or I didn't want to expose
myself. You know?
It's crazy, isn't? It it is, it's nice to see the
way attitudes have changed, no? And generally, because we both

(09:59):
know a this mostly the same group of people in online
motoring forum and I like that that group of people are all a
very strongly supportive group of people.
And I like that about them. And I like the way that I had my
own niggly bits with that same group of people from my question

(10:21):
days. You were probably around.
You probably saw those conversations.
Yeah, yeah, we used to RIP you, didn't we?
You. Oh yes, yes, you did.
It'd be known to corner after your after Anglesey.
Didn't we check? We did.
Character called Lime. Yes, yes, you did.
And I remember when that first appeared, I thought, is that

(10:41):
really necessary? And then I learned to roll with
it. And it is funny.
It's funny now. I look back at it humorously,
but when I think back when I thought it was a little bit
niggly, I thought, and I think now I think, why?
What was so fragile about my belief system that I felt

(11:06):
niggled by that? Because it's crazy.
Full context, people. Some of the people understand
there's a race track in the UK which has a corner called
Church, and because I was raiseda Christian in this group of car
club people, they changed in thecar club discussions.
They renamed this corner called Church to my online nickname,
which was Lightning. It's a tiny, tiny thing.

(11:28):
There is no necessity whatsoeverto to take any kind of niggle
from that. But my, my religious disposition
at the time was so fragile that I was slightly niggled by it for
a short period of time. David, it's about time you piped
in because Laura and I obviouslyhave history.
You're new to this friendship, to this relationship, but you

(11:50):
have your own thoughts. Would you like to pipe up?
Sure. And what a ridiculous question
to ask since you know me so well.
I have a, a, a question, Lauren.And for me, it's just all
questions because it's fairly new to me, the whole trans

(12:15):
thing. Granted, I've been a Christian
forever. I've been an activist for a
while, but even in evangelical Christianity where I come from,
and I'm 55 for context, trans wasn't an issue.
It it hasn't been an issue that whole time.

(12:38):
There have always been trans people, there have always been
homosexual people. There have always been these
people have always been around. But that wasn't the focus of the
church for a long time. It was just, yeah, those people
over there doing that thing. You, you do you.

(12:58):
And it's just been kind of recent in historical terms that
suddenly this has become, you know, the focal point of the
church and trans people have become a target.
My own my own thoughts about this is that whenever an out

(13:21):
group moves to assert their humanity and their equality,
then they become a target. Then then the majority becomes
threatened and the church has tokick in.
But I would just ask you who whohas a much better historical

(13:42):
perspective? When did this become an issue
for the church? You know, you become Public
Enemy number one and what what triggered it in your mind?
I, I think that I suppose, you know, my basis and answering
that would be around what what'shappened in the UK, you know,

(14:03):
with I think people, I think if you go back to, I think it was
about 2017 and there was the mayor Forstater issue.
Mayor Forstater was, is, is a woman who's a, a transphobic
woman who initially lost one lost, I think, and still lost a,
a court battle over gender critical beliefs, which means

(14:25):
she was dismissed from her work.But I think that people around
her, I think the the basis in all of this issue around being
gender critical or transphobic stems a bit from religion,
doesn't it? So I think it goes back to that
issue of, you know, God created man and woman and all this kind
of thing. I suppose that stuff that you

(14:46):
have far more knowledge about than me, although you know, I'm
AI was a Christian when I was younger.
But I think, I think it is around 2017 that we started
seeing this, but I don't know really it why it became a thing
for the church. I guess it's mobilising people
to more conservative views, isn't it?
Is is it around that? I'm not sure I'm really doing it

(15:08):
justice to sort of trying to answer it.
My feelings on that is you're, you're right about the the
conservative Christian aspect. It feels to me that Christianity
has past a threshold. Public Christianity has passed a
threshold because there've been so many people leaving
Christianity over the last 30 years.

(15:30):
And those people have become louder, more noisier.
And certainly in the last 10 years you've got the explosions
of podcasts like this one. And if you go and look for ex
Christian podcasts, there are lots of them, lots and lots of
people with a voice making noise, lots of support groups
with a voice. And I think what's happened is
the amount of leavers has now become, has become so large that

(15:55):
Christianity is feeling it, Christianity is noticing it.
And what's happened is those that are left have ring fenced
themselves. They've put up a war.
And those that are left are the core.
And what that means is the core or the most fundamental, you
know, all those people who are slightly more liberal, slightly

(16:16):
more more nuanced in their attitude towards other humans,
those are the ones that have left Christianity.
The ones that are not leaving Christianity are the core, the
fundy core. And so what's happened is what's
now remains of Christianity is mostly the highly conservative.
And so they have now got more and more freedom to express

(16:38):
their views. And certainly from me who spent
a lot of time looking at Christianity from the outside
and critiquing Christianity, there have been a few people.
In fact, a really good example of this is something that John
Steingard, he's a former Christian musician, Andrew and I

(16:58):
interviewed him here on Still Unbelievable around about
lockdown time about four, 3-4 years ago now.
And he left Christianity. But he talked about a story of
somebody he knew from the Christian music industry who
made a comment on social media being pro homo, pre being pro

(17:20):
same sex marriage. And so he made an allyish
comment and then he got on the plane and did a 6 to 8 hour
flight. By the time he landed, social
media had wrecked the band and that was it.
That was the end of the band. I can't remember the name of the
band, but this has happened. So what's happened in the last

(17:42):
15 years is Christians who have dared to be vocal initially on
gay rights have suffered from the hands of their own kind.
You know, the the core of Christianity has savaged
Christians who wanted to be liberal, who wanted to be
accepting, who wanted to be welcoming.

(18:03):
And what I'm seeing now is more and more Christians with the
platform are not talking about the LGBT issue.
They're not talking about trans people.
There are very, very few Christians who are openly
talking in accepting terms on this issue because their core

(18:25):
base, the people they rely on, the people that fund their
ministries, will just utterly destroy them if they and.
I think, I think, but I think thinking about the, the, the way
that everything's going against trans people from the, which is
perpetuated by those evangelicals is because we're
such an easy target and we're easy to know.
What's happened is, is that somepeople don't have a voice.

(18:48):
You know, we're we're constantlynot given a voice.
We're not given. And, and if we are, we're only
presented as trans activists, assome kind of militant group that
are that are there to like kind of, you know, interfere in
everybody's life and make it worse.
So I think there's just a anything that's presented, the
media percent is always bad trans.

(19:09):
So it's always stuff that's in anegative way.
Like for example, if I can give this example after the court
ruling on Wednesday. BBC News at 10 presented this
thing about trans women like me,apparently no longer women, that
that's what that's what they're doing in the Equality Act, you

(19:29):
know, and they presented as an example of trans women Isla
Bryson, who's a convicted rapistand I would say a fake trans
women, you know, and, and but that's apparently acceptable to
do that. So there's this terrible
negativity that goes on and you know, and there's this fear
mongering that happens as well that for some reason that people

(19:52):
think that trans women using, say, ladies restrooms, should we
say, or bathrooms in America or anywhere in fact, pose some kind
of like sexual predatory threat.You know, we're only, we're only
trans women there to, to threaten and endanger women.
Where actually what you're doingis victim blaming, isn't it?
Because we're, we're the ones that ironically, I'm far more

(20:14):
likely to suffer abuse than I have done.
I was exploited, sexually exploited.
As a young adult, I was, I was sexually abused as a child.
You know, it's all these things.So all, and that's always by
men. So, you know, all I've ever been
is a victim and I was seriously assaulted a number of times.
So I think The thing is, is this, this thing about trans
women present a threat, which iswhat they present.

(20:36):
You don't want your daughter going into a lie with a man
who's just as a woman. But but The thing is this thing
is that they, they equate that trans women are men and that's
the problem. But now because of the court
ruling, I've noticed that the change in discourse in the press
doesn't talk us about us as trans women anymore.
It refers to us as males and men.

(20:58):
So it literally just does away with that.
It's just, you know, it's reallybad.
And all of this stuff then makespeople think, Oh, well, if trans
women are men, because the courtjudgement is saying that, then
therefore we can't have just seewhat I mean.
It's easy. And I don't know if I've gone a
bit tangently and because I'm a bit passionate about it, David,
and I do apologise, but but I think that a lot of that

(21:20):
negative stuff, it's so that that's what they've done, isn't
it? In America, they've used the
sport angle as well. And you know, I've got lots I
could say about that, but. All tangents are welcome and you
don't need to apologise for any of them.
Especially to me. OK, OK.
But there's probably said a lot there because I do go on.

(21:40):
But it's it's a real issue, isn't it?
That thing of that the church say, well, this is a group that
this is against God's teachings.You know, they change their
body, they cut things off, stickthings in.
You know, they're a danger to your children.
They're then trans women are a danger to women and girls.
That's what they've petched away.
You know, I have a good friend of mine, a business partner

(22:02):
who's a trans man. It's like they don't even
figure, isn't it? Yeah, it's it's a bit weird that
it really is a misogynistic world that we're living in.
A misogyny feels like it's got worse, too many.
The ridiculous irony in all this, Lauren, is that a woman

(22:23):
going into a bar is more at riskfrom the the straight Russell
Brand at the bar offering to buythem a drink than they are from
the trans person they might bumpinto in the toilets.
Yeah, absolutely. And, and, and The thing is, is
that actually, you know, the, the vulnerability, like, like

(22:46):
it's more with the trans women. And I think I'm probably more
vulnerable than than six women are anyway by nature of being
trans. And that's the the problem,
isn't it? To an extent, you know, it's
because I'm somehow now being treated as less human.
You know it's. It's crazy and I, I'm quite
horrified by this whole languageof oh, we must protect us

(23:08):
delicate white women. Really.
The people that you're ejecting from the ladies bathroom are
going to be 4 * 5 * 10 times more at risk if you force them
into the men's toilet. That's been absolutely brutal
about that. This is and they're not even a
threat to you. And if your fear is a man

(23:32):
particular address for opportunity, then your target is
the wrong person. Well, I let me, let me just say
on the whole bathroom front, because I was an athlete since I
was a kid. And so locker rooms are, you
know, I, I grew up, you know, getting naked in locker rooms,

(23:54):
you know, around other people. That just becomes a thing.
You didn't even think about it after a while.
But at some point you grow up, you realize, oh, you know,
they're gay people. So if your, if your fear is that
someone in a changing room situation who is of the same sex

(24:21):
might see your junk and Papa boner, it's just stupid.
It it, it honestly is because they're in the locker room for
the same reason that you're in the locker room and nobody is.
I mean, this life is not a porn movie.
It's just we're there to change out of your clothes, get a
shower and get on with your life.

(24:43):
And at some point, athletes in particular, that's the group
that just doesn't give a shit. And in the real world, that's
always a possibility. You know, you could always run
into a violent homosexual, whether male or female, who, you
know, society would say, oh, yeah, they belong in that

(25:05):
bathroom. But they don't think about that
when it comes to the trans issue.
The trans is just a visible person that they can target.
And I think the whole bathroom safety issue is just a
smokescreen for trans bigotry because that issue, if that's

(25:25):
really what they cared about, has always existed and they know
it. So that's not, it's not the
issue. It's never been the issue.
And you know, it's, it's just anexcuse to be against this group
that is all of a sudden trying to assert their humanity.
I mean, I mean, absolutely I agree.

(25:46):
And I think that the other thingis as well as you know, I go
into a loo to a bathroom, shouldwe call it and I go in a locked
cubicle, go to the loo, get a hot go out, wash my hands,
whatever and check my face, etcetera, maybe have a chat.
I don't know it's but but The thing is, is that that's all it

(26:07):
is, right. So and the other thing, the
other thing I would say sort of about it is that for me is a
safe space. You know, I feel like, well, men
aren't going to come in there, so it's safe if I'm having a man
of harassing me in a club. How many times have you used the
ladies restroom as an Oasis? You know, we've got my mate and
come in and sort, you know, we work out a plan to what we're
going to do. That was years ago when I was

(26:28):
young. But I think the other thing is
as well is that obviously any trans woman has at some point,
it's at some point they're they're preoperative, they're
pre surgery and stuff. And I think any chance room
would be absolutely mortified ifanyone should see them in any
way naked or, or, or or their genital, their genitals.

(26:49):
And I would certainly absolutelyagree that when I used to go to,
well, we're going back a very long time ago now.
But when I, if I went to events or went, I knew I was going to
be away. I'd have to check the facilities
before that they were OK for me that it was going to be safe for
me. That obviously I would, you
know, could be able to shower inif I had to share sort of areas
to make sure everything had locks on the doors and stuff

(27:11):
like that. Because that that's for me, you
know, not for it's, it just see what I mean?
It's that thing of feeling really self-conscious and really
worried about things like that, that it's going to be a safe
place. But the last thing ever, you
know, it's just been, you just die, wouldn't you?
That's how it would make me feel.
I mean, and nowadays, you know, 25 years post surgery, I don't

(27:31):
really, I don't go around. I think I've showered in in a
group setting with other women, Formula One in 2004, because I
had no option. But it didn't really matter, did
it? You know?
So, but it's not something I tryand seek out to do, is it?
Why would I do that? That was just quite a bit weird,

(27:52):
wouldn't it? It does end.
There's a despicable theme that I'm seeing here through the
whole I'm old enough to rememberthe AIDS scare of the 1980s, and
that was blamed almost exclusively on homosexual men.

(28:13):
Yes, it was. It did appear to be more
prevalent in those communities, but it wasn't unique to those
communities. And but they got all the blame
and then that then transformed into a lot of anti-gay rhetoric
in the Christian community and that's spread into homosexual

(28:35):
people clearly want to get access to our children.
And there was this the paedophile.
Link, Yeah. Yeah, and, and I still see it
today. I absolutely do see this link
between homosexual men and paedophiles, which is the most.
Bizarrely, there is no real evidence that actually makes

(28:56):
that connection, unless you wantto say that 90% of Catholic
priests are are homosexual men. Have fun with that one.
It's it's it really is. And now I'm seeing a very
similar rhetoric to the trans community.
Trans women are simply men in a dress who want access to

(29:20):
children and. Its purpose is to do that.
That's why they do it, isn't it?It is it's.
It is, it's utterly horrific andI'm just a stand and it's coming
from the same people and it's coming from the deeply religious
community. And what that points to me, I
think that's telling of a biggerstory.
I mean, this is horrific anyway,this is what we're talking

(29:41):
about. But I think there's a the bigger
picture around this is that conservative Christian community
is notorious for science denial.They do not take, they do not
look at evidence, they do not look at nuance.
They just look at their well thumbed red lined holy book and
they interpret that how they want to so that they can have

(30:02):
control and they can can manipulate and hate particular
people and they use whatever they can and they are not
nuanced in their scientific. I think that's the scenario that
this kind of language comes out and it's poisonous in it and it
hurts side to side. Anyway, what I would like to

(30:23):
move on to David, unless you want to interrupt with that
point. Just one quick one, just one
quick one. It takes 10 seconds.
I have been seeing a change in the language or in addition to
the language, not just that trans people are trying to
sexually assault your children, but that because trans people

(30:44):
cannot procreate, they want to procreate by changing your
children. That's that's kind of the new so
they're going to make. More trans people like you kind
of. OK.
So it's the contagion thing, isn't it?
Yeah, let's let's sit on that one for a bit before we take my.
Question, but indoctrination isn't it.

(31:05):
It's a bit like the church, Yeah, it's the, but that's what
they're kind of using that same kind of rhetoric in a way, which
is a bit weird, but. Yeah, let's make a very serious
point here. Letting children know that trans
people exist is not equivalent to trying to make your children
trans. You know, let's make that point

(31:25):
clear. And in case you didn't hear it
at the back, just letting your children know that these people
exist is not equivalent to trying to pervert your children.
They are not the same thing. We're just trying to make your
children better humans so they can see that other people exist
and they are different. These are different, so let's

(31:47):
put that one to bed then. Lauren, why are children?
Why do children have nothing to fear from you?
Because I'm not a threat, but simply I think the problem is,
as well as this aspect of sayingabout people thinking that

(32:07):
children could be influenced by me to be trans, who in their
mind will want to be trans? Like it's just a nightmare,
isn't it really? It's that's what nobody seems to
really think about. It's like, let's just think how
long it takes to go through thatprocess, how difficult it is to
do. I'm not, I don't want any, you
know, prizes for that. But I think that the problem is,
is that there's surgeries, there's hormones, there's

(32:30):
turning your light. It turns your life upside down
and got all those things, you know, that you have to do and
all that gatekeeping you have togo through.
And it's really difficult. I'm not a threat to children.
In fact, I'm a social worker andI have safeguarded children for
18 years nearly. And so the point is, I don't, I
suppose I want to. Maybe we should talk more about

(32:52):
why I could be considered a threat because I don't
understand that. Yes, that was the question I
wanted to ask earlier. So let's because a lot of the
language that I'm seeing is we're seeing privileged, mostly
white, CIS women saying we don'twant people who are different
from me in my bathroom because Ifeel threatened.

(33:16):
So let's answer that question for it.
Why would the CIS straight, white middle class women be
threatened by you going into bathroom?
Well, they wouldn't. And and because I'm, I'm, I
don't know how to really say it and that other than not being a
threat because all I want to do is go to the bathroom for the
same reasons they do right to use the toilet, you know, to, to

(33:40):
do that. And quite often, you know, I, I,
I will, I will just go to the like everyone does.
You come out, you wash your hands, you check your face, or
sometimes I might have a conversation.
This ladies lose. It's what happens.
People talking to each other, you know, and especially if
you've probably had a few drinks.
But I mean, it's just social etiquette, I suppose.
But I can't see how any of that qualifies me as a threat.

(34:07):
I don't, I don't know. I mean, I just, I suppose I'm
just trying to, it's one of those things that I've done a
million times, isn't it in the last over 30 years.
Yeah, and I'm trying to point pinpoint where this I'm.
Trying to pinpoint where the threat is.
Where the where the it's coming from?
Because there's definitely a perceived threat in the
language. Is it done at all?

(34:28):
So? Is it a real?
Threat I I'm, I'm not seeing howit can be a genuine threat, but
there is definitely this sense of perceived threat and I think
it's manufactured and I think. This is completely manufactured.
It is completely manufactured there.
To look at women, do I like coming in and out of toilet key?

(34:48):
Because. Because that would be really
exciting. Zero people, zero people are
going to the bathrooms. No, it's you know, to to to see
people with full bladders. This is this is nonsense.
And if we just back Step 1 little back step and Christians
can do this on their own. Just look at the statistics and

(35:10):
realise their kids are in way more danger from CIS hetero
males. That's the way more danger per
capita. You can chop it up any way you
want to. It's just that from the
Christian perspective, the only way they talk about trans

(35:34):
people, LGBTQ plus people, the only way they talk about them is
in a negative term. So the only news they give about
them is when a trans person doessomething bad.
And guess what? Trans people are people.
They're complete people. They do bad things just like
heterosexuals do. It's it's like the immigration
issue in America. The only time you hear about

(35:58):
Haitians is when they've attacked a white person.
That's it. And so the narrative becomes
these immigrants have to be deported because they're all
bad. That's how Christians view it.
Even as far back as ancient Judaism, the Canaanites, they
had to be completely wiped out because they're all bad.

(36:20):
The earth had to be completely wiped out because they were all
bad enemies of God in Sodom and Gomorrah.
They were all bad. It's that it's kind of this all
or nothing mortality. And so if they want to have a a
durable enemy and in trans is itfor now, they are all bad.

(36:43):
And so the only thing they talk about are news items or things
that's bad. And so that's how you get that
perspective that Oh, well, the only time I ever hear about
these are when they're, you know, doing something bad, the
bad. Trans again, isn't it the bad
trans you know, that's it we don't hear about the the good
trans too, but you know, people don't want to hear about that

(37:05):
and it's not in the rhetoric it's not allowed is it so it's
it's that it's all of that isn'tit And and that's how they build
these it's a complete myth that that that trans women are are a
threat, especially to children, which.
There's a tiny little bit of, I know it's not great, but there
is a tiny little bit of hope in all this that we've talked

(37:27):
about. And if I can again frame it by
talking about the past again, Christians, these we're talking
about, these conservative core group of friendly Christians,
they are, they have lost the fight against homosexual people.
More and more churches are accepting same sex attracted
people into their midst. Not just that they're actively

(37:51):
blessing same sex unions. They are even going so far as
accepting same sex attracted people into their leadership as
priests, etcetera. Chris, the Christians who are
anti the gay community have lostthat fight.
So those who are still in that cohort, who are still anti

(38:13):
anything that's not the conforming sexuality that they
desire, they've looked for a newdemon.
And it's deeply regrettable thatthat demon is the LGBTQ trans
community and the. And so they are now the target.
And what's really, really disgusting about this is they

(38:35):
are such a tiny minority, less than 1% of our population.
Yeah. The gay community is around
about what, 10% or something like that.
Yeah. And the numbers are just too big
for for these Christians to actually have any impact on them
because once you boil, Chris, once you boil the population

(38:56):
down to just those fundy Christians, they're probably not
much more than 10% themselves anyway and probably even even
less. They are a noisy minority, but
sadly, they also have power and clout behind their noise.
So what they've done is they've focused on a target that they
can make an impact on. And it's a tiny sub 1% of our

(39:20):
population who are trans. I think it's despicable that
people like this will shift their blame and shift their
focus onto such a small part of our community who are vulnerable
and do need community success. So moving on to that, Lauren,
because some of the things that we've talked about in the leader
up to this is what can the widerpopulation do?

(39:43):
Because I've made the point thatyou guys are less than 1% even
talking about trans people. Does that run a risk of creating
a division? Does that run the risk of saying
you are different from me? Do we need to change our
language so that it's more inclusive so that people see you
and me as the same, not different?
And what can people like David and myself do to make life more

(40:08):
comfortable? For the sub 1% who have been
targeted in this way. I mean, I think, I think, I
think firstly, because we're so few, we're such an easy target.
And I think also we misunderstood, you know, people
said, well, you know, I always say to people, well, I am who I
am and I've had to do what I hadto do because I had no choice,

(40:29):
you know, And it's pretty drastic, I suppose you could
say, but that's the only way I could live my life and and have
a happy life. You know, I think if I sit, I'm
married to other husband, you know, you know, Mark.
So yes, I do. It's I've been with him 23 years
next month. But I think the the thing, what

(40:50):
can we do? What's the, what should we be
different? I think that my perspective is
going to differ because of my experiences.
And, you know, that's if you ever see a series called,
there's a really excellent series about trans women called
Pose that that was made in America.
And it's very, you know, brilliant for illustrating that.

(41:11):
I think as a trans woman, we always have the same story.
Basically, we get we get beaten up, kicked out, you know, and
then we have to kind of like sort our lives out with no
support and and we get a lot of abuse.
So I think and what you could doto support it, because we're
such a small group, I always sayto people, be an ally where the

(41:34):
lanyard what you where. When somebody says that makes a
joke about trans people, challenge them, say something
about it and say hang on a second.
I've got a friend of mine, she'scalled Lauren.
She's trans I know all about because she's spoken to me about
it. We've had general conversations
about it. And you're absolutely wrong.
It's not like that. And I think what we've got to do

(41:56):
is challenge it because the onlyway that that we will as a group
survive is if people assist people stand up and and call it
out, you know, call out transphobia at the rallies.
I was there, my husband was there off my roller Derby team
were there who were mostly assist women, some were

(42:18):
heterosexual, some arts that actually some non binary people
who play in roller Derby. But they were there and we used
to together. And that's the key isn't it?
Always we've got to stand together because otherwise
divided we fall. And at the moment what's
happening is that trans people have been divided.
I've now been separated from other women by so-called

(42:39):
apparent feminists. You can't be a feminist if you
attack trans people. It's just by definition makes no
sense. So I think that is something we
really need to think about. And these these apparent
feminists, you know, who were cheering up, jumping up and down
outside the court, Well, really all you've done is clicked your
own goose because yeah, they're gonna go for women's rights.

(42:59):
And that's already happened in America with Roe versus Wade,
abortion, etcetera. And and then gay rights will
come as well. So that's the problem.
So it's just I haven't thought about it.
I don't think they have. I think there's going to be a
terrible sting in the tail of this thing.
So just for context, listeners, we are talking about the

(43:20):
Scottish High Court that this week here in the UK ruled that
women's places are for biological women only.
The full text of that document, because it is publicly
available, will be in my show notes.
Check my show notes. You can go and have a look at
that. Read the full thing.
I've also found at least one page each where there's a legal

(43:40):
commentary on that. It's worth reading the legal
commentary because when I tried to read some of the key
paragraphs of that document, they're legalese.
I am not a legalese expert and there was one that I had to read
multiple times and I still didn't understand what it was
saying even though I understood each of the words that was in
it. I asked AI to explain it, which

(44:00):
helped me a great deal, and it was really interesting what
copilot came out when I asked itto explain that the paragraph to
me, for example, there was one paragraph I was really
struggling to read and what copilot told me what that
paragraph said was. The paragraph recognised that
there was a discrepancy between the legal definition of a

(44:21):
biological woman and the expression of protections from
the Discrimination Act and thosetwo then that a literal reading
of those two things conflicted and caused a problem and that
place is needed to solve that. So this document is not a clear
cut case. This document does not solve a
lot of issues and there are going to be things that ripple

(44:43):
out of this which are going to need further decisions.
So do not take this document, donot take this cheering from this
decision as being an absolute win because that it is
absolutely not. There is a lot of ambiguity.
There is a lot of clarity that is lacking.
There is a lot of contradiction and discrepancy, and there is a

(45:04):
lot of stuff needs to come out of this.
And if you come out of this being a Dick, you are the
problem. So, Lauren, some of, I mean,
this whole focus is around bathrooms, which is I think
highly unfortunate. It really is the one place where
this should not be focused. But some of the commentary that
I've seen around bathrooms is we're going to now have

(45:28):
situations where some people take it upon themselves to
police who doesn't, who doesn't go into a women's bathroom.
Do you think this is a genuine concern?
Do you think this is actually something that will genuinely
happen? I think it is.
I'm anxious about what's going to happen next week really,

(45:48):
because I'm not aware today. I go back to work tomorrow, but
I'm anxious about kind of the way that this ruling has been
interpreted. And I think that those crazy
people, women jumping up and down outside the court and
people like Krishna Faulkner, the HRC chair, seem to think
that this this ruling means thatyou can exclude transferring

(46:13):
from bathrooms from female bathrooms.
When in actual fact, the irony is, is that in the equality law,
the only thing that's actually changed is there are if we, if
we take just trans women. So that's those with gender
recognition certificates, probably around about 4000 of
us. I've had one since it was

(46:33):
possible total for 20 years. And I was fast tracked for it
because I qualified for it yearsbefore it even came into
existence back in the 90s. So, and that gender recognition
certificate gave me all my legalrights as a woman, my acquired
gender, and now they've changed it so that I'm no longer a woman
according to the Equality Act. The Equality Act used to before

(46:58):
the court ruling said what was on your birth certificate is how
you're treated as in your sex inlaw.
So that meant that trans women without a gender recognition
certificate and therefore a corrected birth certificate was
still treated as a man, whereas for me it was different.
So that's what they've changed. But it doesn't mean that that
you're then automatically excluding transferring from

(47:19):
female spaces because it has to be a legitimate and
proportionate aim. And I would argue that obviously
going to using a female bathroomwhere I go into a locked
cubicle, as you know, that's howthese things are, right?
They're not communal. It's, it's no threat at all.
We've had this a bit, this discussion, haven't we?

(47:40):
But, but I do think will people do that?
I think there is an interpretation like for example,
the British Transport Police have said that now that I will
be, if I was to be searched, I'll be searched by a male
officer. But you know that that takes
into no account that I have breasts, I have a vagina.
You know, it's not really, it doesn't seem very appropriate to

(48:03):
say. It seems like a licence for
sexual assault in my, in my opinion.
I'm quite horrified by that prospect and I'm not even going
to be a victim of that. And I find those words that
you've said have made my skin crawl.
I, I just can't imagine. I I'm sorry I'm lost for words,
David. Yeah, how?

(48:25):
How do you enforce the law? The other, the other thing,
David, as well, of course, thinking about this, is that
some the problem is some, yeah. How do you police this?
Because, you know, I've never ever had someone say to me, are
you a trans woman in the loop? You know it's not.
It's not altogether obvious in many cases.

(48:48):
You know, if I don't know if this is a really bad term in
this community, but I'm ignorantand so I'm willing to learn, but
I'm also willing to fumble through it.
If you've ever seen a Thai lady,boy, you are, you have no idea
what you're looking at. And there I'm just going to, I'm
just going to say it that way. And there are lots of trans

(49:09):
people who they're just flat outcrossdressers who are so good.
They're not even trans or gay oranything, but they're so good.
You don't know. And so I have no idea how this
would be enforced. I mean, does someone in a
restroom say, hey, there's someone in here who looks like
they might be trans? And who do they report that to?

(49:31):
And then what does that person do?
What is? It seems so absurd to me.
What the What the hell do you do?
How do you enforce that? If British transport, if British
Transport Police are actually serious about this and I
haven't, I will try and look up and if I find that's it, OK.
Check the show notes. I don't have a link to me right

(49:51):
now, but obviously through the edit because this will be out
for a couple of days. Thank you, thank you.
Check the show notes for a link to that because if they are
actually serious about that, it will be in the news that they
have gone and stopped a genuine woman who looks just a little
bit macho. And that will be, that will be
the Daily Mail headline. And that will happen.

(50:13):
My prediction is that will happen before they've done that
to a genuine trans person. And that will happen before this
summer is out. My birthday is in September.
I'm promising you that headline will happen before my birthday
this year. You've got this issue.
I don't haven't you where actually what's going to happen
is though, so I'm fairly feminine in my how I present,

(50:36):
you know, there's no ambiguity. I'm not androgynous at all, you
know, but but there are women that are that assist women and
they're the ones that are going to get them challenged, don't
they? And we've seen this in America
already, haven't we? So I'm aware of that.
Yes, the Yeah is is going to, it's going to be a nightmare and

(50:58):
it's going to backfire horrifically.
And my only hope is that enough genuine women get caught up in
this. Sorry, let me just make it.
I am not wishing anything bad ongenuine women, but I do hope
that enough genuine women get caught up on the wrong side of
this that people realise, oh, hang on a minute, we've really

(51:19):
cocked up here. We need to take a step back and
we need to be less shitty That that is my hope.
Could I say is it better to use the term cisgender rather than
genuine as to as it kind of implies?
Probably I'm I'm I, I am not familiar with the right kind of
words to use. I apologise to Lauren and that's
the part of my education here. That's OK.

(51:40):
I think the problem is, is that is that really this ruling takes
away some of my validity as a woman, doesn't it?
Whereas, you know, I could say prior to Wednesday, well, I'm
legal or for intense purposes, according to Laura, I'm a woman.
You know, I've gone through all this process.
It's I recognise medical condition, I've been through all
the treatments, you know, I can't do anything more.
It's you know, and I've lived mylife silly as a woman for more

(52:06):
than half my life. 29 years is quite a long time so.
Hey man, I'm sorry, I've got to check out here pretty quick and
so I, I know I've interrupted here, but I'd like to say one
more thing before I check out. And so if, if you can cue me in
for that, I've I've got this other thing that I've got to get
a little bit more then. You go and do your thing and

(52:28):
Lauren and I will tidy up. All right, yeah, sorry about
that. So the thing that has been
bouncing around in my mind, I dowant to stick around long enough
to hear Lauren's response to this because, you know, like,
like I said earlier, I'm just a dumb clod.
Who's, who's figuring this out now?

(52:52):
But it seems to me that trans have been around for a long
time. And, and I also think that trans
is maybe a little bit of a, a misnomer.
It's it's a badge that trans people didn't give themselves.
And so anytime you have a situation like that, it's always
going to be a little bit of a misnomer.

(53:12):
Lauren, I'm, I suspect you were trans long before you, you know,
had transition surgery. You were trans long before you
were, you know, you put on a dress.
You were, it's like being homosexual.
You're homosexual long before you ever ask a person with the
same sex out on a date. You were left-handed long before

(53:37):
anyone noticed and try to make you right-handed.
And so there's a biological component here that is kind of
being denied with the word transitself because it suggests that
you are making a conscious choice to stop being the thing
that God created you and being this other thing.

(53:59):
And the fact is it's a recognition and sometimes it's a
quick recognition when you're very young.
Sometimes it's a slow recognition over time.
It's a recognition of what you actually are.
You're not transing anything. And so I, I just want to say to

(54:20):
people that maybe the problem here is visibility, or at least
that's part of the problem. We used to say there's only 1%
gay people in the world. That wasn't true.
There's only 5% gay people in the world.
That wasn't true either. And now, you know, we can say,
well, there's about 10% gay. I'm not even sure that's true.
It's just a matter of visibility.

(54:42):
They're more visible now, way more visible.
And we have to acknowledge them.And I think that that has to
happen with the air quotes transcommunity.
You exist, you're out there, andyou were out there long before
anyone knew it, maybe even before you knew it.

(55:03):
And so I would, I would love to see a little bit better branding
than that and a little bit more biological awareness that that
what you are and what other again and air quotes trans
people are is what they have always been.

(55:25):
And the only thing that's transitioned is our recognition
of it. Yeah, yeah, I think that's, it's
a really good point actually. I mean, obviously, as I would
say, obviously I was born the way I am really and only from an
early age like most trans peoplewill tell you and most gay
people will tell you. I think actually what's, what's
interesting is the change in thelanguage that we had this thing

(55:47):
where we use this term transgender, where you, you
know, when I was diagnosed, my record still says it on the NHS
that I was trying to diagnose meas transsexual.
Because people seem to know the difference between people who
were transsexual and people who were who would cross dress,
etcetera. And there's always a spectrum of

(56:08):
these things. But you know, there would be
quite a notable difference. I found that in the 90s when I
would always, if I had to say what was, I would say I was a
transsexual back then. And people knew what that meant.
That meant that you were going to have surgery, you were going
to go through this process that you were, you know, you've they
don't want to use the term born in the wrong body, though,
because I think it's really simplistic.

(56:28):
But this thing where, you know, they could see that something
was obviously wrong from a youngchildhood age, you know, and
you'll be treated for a medical condition that's been well
documented for a good hundred years.
Really. If we go back to Hirshfield, Max
Hirshfield and Berlin, you know,before the Nazis wiped out the

(56:49):
the trans people in the Holocaust, you know, and did all
of that. So I think, I think that's the
you're right that there's an issue, isn't there, around this
thing that we're fans, that we're making a choice to do
this. I mean, in the right mind would
make a choice to do all the things I've done to be myself.
I mean, it's pretty intense, isn't it really?

(57:10):
You know, I nearly died in surgery.
I was very ill. I had some really bad
complications. I came through it all.
But you know, it was super tough, but, and, and also all
the, the, the social issues around, you know, having family
members that don't, still don't talk to me 30 years later.

(57:31):
It's crap like that, isn't it? And, and the abuse you get, you
know, and as a child just being terrorized by boys beating me up
because I wasn't like them. It's it's sort of so I think The
thing is this around this, this issue around around all of it is
that that nobody would choose todo that, would they?
And nobody would want that. And like my friend who's gay

(57:52):
says to me, he says, God, why would anyone want to be gay?
And you've got to be mad, he said, let alone be trans.
He said, you're another level. But it's true, isn't it?
I think. Does that make sense?
It does, it does. And thank you so much for
answering my questions because Irecognise that, you know,

(58:13):
they're all ignorant questions. I've, I've been an American
evangelical for the first half of my life and this simply
wasn't an issue until my later time in the church and through
most of my atheism. So I, I, I appreciate that.
And for any trans people out there or, or gay people out

(58:35):
there, if I've used the wrong term, which I'm sure I have,
it's not intentional. And so thank you so much.
I I do have to run though, and II really appreciate having been
here. Cheers David, talk to you again.
Soon. You're welcome.
Nice to meet you. Right, so let's Polish one thing
off first then Lauren. Now I used some clumsy language

(58:56):
5-10 minutes ago. I apologise for that.
I used language that I'm comfortable with to express
something that you knew what I meant.
But this is an important point. The language, if we, if I'm
going to be a genuine ally, I need to use the right language
to talk about people. And using the language that I
did, genuine woman is clumsy, it's inaccurate and it risks

(59:21):
offence. So how should I use phrases like
that? What are the right words that
somebody like me who needs to bean ally use?
And I think really if we're going to use trans as a word,
then we would apply if we're talking about women who's not
trans. I would say there's CIS, you
know, which is Latin, isn't it? I mean, it's just basic stuff

(59:42):
really. I mean, in that I think that's
better because the problem we'vegot at the moment, especially
with since this ruling, is that I commented on Blue Sky this
morning, that all the discourse I'm reading, like I said
earlier, is that they used to refer to us as trans women.
Now they refer to us just as males or men.
So there's changing. Of course that attacks our
validity and people are saying, oh, you're not a woman, you're a

(01:00:05):
man. But what it's that thing, isn't
it when it's taking away my validity.
So I think obviously if we use terms like genuine it it it then
infers. On fuels, that's yeah.
That's why, that's why I think. OK, so so this woman or or trans
women are acceptable terms that you would, but we can just drop

(01:00:26):
those and say you're a woman. But the reason why I used the
language I did was to differentiate into the Transport
Police example that we're talking about.
But when there isn't a necessityto differentiate, you're a
woman. So, but I think you made the
point about that change of the language.
The change of the language has become more competitive and that

(01:00:47):
I think that's intentionally so it's it's with the.
Intention, isn't it? Yeah, it's with the intention of
devaluing you. So that makes it even more
important that your allies combat that.
So you said earlier that we should challenge that.
So if I see somebody on social media, it doesn't matter whether

(01:01:09):
it's Twitter or any other socialmedia place, and I see somebody
describing trans women as men, Ineed to combat that.
I need to say they're women. It's.
Good. Because men wouldn't do what
I've done to, would they? That's the point, you know.
And I think there must be a difference there for that.
It's pretty obvious if people really just thought about it for

(01:01:29):
a minute. Yeah, that's that's what.
I would say. Just for a bit of light
amusement, I'm in a play. You know that acting is the the
hobby thing I do. And just out of pure
coincidence, the character that I am playing in the play has to
put on a skirt and has to be a female vicar for half of the

(01:01:50):
play. So I have to experience being on
stage in tights and a short skirt.
When I say short skirt, I mean it stops halfway down my thighs.
It is obscene. And I'll be straight up and
honest, I have never in my life stood on stage and felt so
vulnerable. Really.

(01:02:11):
I mean, isn't that interesting? It really is because I feel
naked below my waist there. There is a comfort in wearing
trousers. You feel the thickness of the
material on your legs when it's just tights, it feels like it
feels naked. There's not a lot there and and
it feels good. And yes, there's because of the

(01:02:34):
context, there's the obvious drama related jokes all around
that etcetera. But genuinely, it feels
uncomfortable for me. I feel vulnerable.
I feel undressed, I feel half dressed.
It's a very strange thing. And and I mentioned that to a

(01:02:54):
couple of women and they both said now you know what it's like
for us. Yeah, every fucking day.
Because you do feel more exposed, don't you?
And that's it. That that's the thing, isn't it?
You know, you sit there, you gosh, she likes you're doing all
those things. You know, I do have, you know,
dresses in the summer. I love the summer dresses.

(01:03:15):
But I mean, but obviously I've worn that season skirts for
decades and decades. But I mean, it's just it's yeah,
there there is that point of it,isn't it?
You know, and, and in heels as well.
You know, you can't get away as quickly, can you?
No, there's. A vulnerability I.
Have to do this in heels as well.
I mean they're small. They're they're an inch height.

(01:03:37):
So I mean I I know the lady is watching this ago.
Inch high heels. What's your problem?
Nothing. 3 or 4 inches. Yeah, I, I have no experience in
walking out. So I am literally I'm walking
around on my tip toes. It's a new experience for me.
It might not be favourable. And well, my knee, I am so, so

(01:04:01):
conscious about where my knees are.
It's really, really strange. So hopefully that gives me a bit
of of an experience of what it'slike to be a woman.
Hopefully that gives me more appreciation of the
vulnerability that women have todeal with on a daily basis that

(01:04:24):
men don't even think about ever.I was going to say that and go
on. So I was going to say the other
thing is about the sexist and the misogyny as well.
You know that that's something you wouldn't have experienced,
but that's something that's, youknow, very real, isn't it?
In all of this. But you, you made the point
earlier about why would somebodydo this?

(01:04:47):
People, people don't do this fora win.
People absolutely don't do it for a cheap thrill.
This is not a sexual thing that that, that you're you're doing.
So let's just try and get that one out of the way.
There's something else that I also, although I've not seen it

(01:05:09):
as part of the dialogue that we've had in the last four
weeks, but I do see it from certain Christian platforms.
And that is this whole thing about the D transitioners.
They're a tiny minority of transitioners who have years
later said, I made a mistake, this should not have happened.

(01:05:34):
I want to want to revert. And those people are being
platformed also as a way to delegitimize your experience.
So I, I'd like to talk a little bit about that because the
existence of a de transitioner should not be used to devalue
those who need to transition. But the question I'd like to ask

(01:05:58):
is how do we care for those people as well?
And yes, how do we filter those?Is there a way in because you've
you've said that you know the experience for the process.
I did find more detail than I do.
I'm not asking for all the detailed, but is there a way
through that process that these people who are at risk of de

(01:06:22):
transitioning being picked up? Or is that simply something that
we have to accept or happen? I think there's there's an
aspects of the laws of Infinity applying in terms of probability
that there's always going to be somebody who transitions and
shouldn't have transitioned. So it's going to happen sometime
somewhere. I think that that there's a huge

(01:06:42):
amount of gatekeeping, though. I think the, the, the public
fear is that children as, as President Trump said, there were
children going to school and they're coming back with having
no operations, you know? Yeah.
For the record, that's bullshit.That that is bullshit because
the reality is, is that, you know, and I've got friends who
have got trans children that I that, that I speak about quite

(01:07:07):
regularly with them to support them.
And, and if there's one thing they can't access, it's actually
services because it's in such disarray.
You know, the waiting times so long they've West Street and has
banned puberty blockers. So and cross sex hormones is
getting pretty difficult for you're supposed to be 16 before

(01:07:29):
you can do that. So there's all this issue where
no trans child be now be prevented from going through
puberty. They don't want to go through
and they'll have to go through that hell.
But I think the D transitioners,the people that they've gone
through the, the, the gatekeeping, they've spoken to.
You have two psychiatrists that you see.

(01:07:52):
So who my experience was that they were very, they present to
you. They kind of have a feeling of
indifference. So you have to kind of convince
them really, and they will try to talk you out of it many a
time, you know, at least the first few visits, you generally

(01:08:12):
get one that plays nice and one that doesn't.
And that was my experience. So I think The thing is, is that
I know people like, you know, I'm immediately thinking of Kira
Bell, who, you know, went through some surgeries and stuff
before then do transitioning. I think there's this issue,
isn't there around all of that, where you think you must have

(01:08:32):
then lied to the people that aretreating you to get in that
position really to get that far along, and I think that's that's
an issue or maybe it's delusion.But so people that D transition,
yes, OK, you know, there's no point is there?
Nobody has is pushed through anyof this.
You know, in fact, I had to be so determined to get with it.

(01:08:59):
When I was at training class andwhen I was seeing, you know,
having all their consultations, I kept moaning about it.
I had to do this. I had to do that.
It was really difficult really, and frustrating for me.
But I think for those, then the transitioners, they've got to be
supported and I have no problem.You know, I just think you've
got to do the what's right for you, haven't you?

(01:09:20):
You know, it's about accepting that the low number of people
that make a mistake seem to present us having gender
dysphoria when in fact it's something else.
It's possible because you know, the head's a complex place and
if you have other issues as well, that can be problematic
kind of making a diagnosis you. Use the word their gender

(01:09:43):
dysphoria, which I understand isa recognised.
What's the word? I don't know what the right word
to use is, but it's a recognisedcondition or or at least it's a
word that's you. Is there a risk though that that
word and the language around that word, is there a risk that
that makes the whole thing a psychological issue rather than

(01:10:07):
a physical issue? And because I definitely see
some comments, I'm kind of reluctant to go down this road
because I'm not sure it's helpful.
But there is certainly an element and I see it a lot.
And again, specifically from thekind of people that we've been
talking about criticizing all the way through the part for the
past hour is a they see it as just a psychological issue and
have a couple of rounds of counselling and you'll be cured

(01:10:29):
of it and that'll be sorted. Yeah, it's a mental disorder is
what you're saying, isn't it? But, but it's been declassified,
hasn't it? I mean, the problem is this.
When I had a doubt, my diagnosiswas gender identity disorder.
So the trouble is every time you've got a disorder, people
say you're mentally ill, you know, really kind of follows,
doesn't it? But now they say gender
dysphoria because it's, you know, it's, it's not a disorder,

(01:10:51):
it's just a medical condition. But yeah, I think that that This
is why in the UK they still haven't banned conversion
therapy. Yeah, we've been waiting years
for this to happen. That's overdue.
Come on, UK Government, you needto do something about that.
It's so bad, it's damaging people.
You know, this, this thing that's perpetuated and I know,

(01:11:11):
but you're going to keep this perpetuated by Christians, isn't
it? By that, it's all of that.
It's something we're going through here, isn't it?
Yes, it is a thing and we will save you.
You know, you just need to find the light.
Yeah. I, I, I, I think that's, it's
extremely difficult with, with that when people say that you

(01:11:32):
can't. I had counselling.
I had everybody try and talk me out of here.
And whether it's family, friendsI've got, I had threats, you
know, not to do anything becausethey would, my family would
disown me, you know, and some ofthem did.
But, but Even so, I was just like, well, what can I do then?

(01:11:53):
You know, I have to do this. I have no choice, otherwise I'm
going to just kill myself. So that's the problem, isn't it?
That's it gets desperate. I think when you've got people
in desperate situations, it's also, they're very vulnerable,
aren't they? You know, and I was very
vulnerable. I was exploited, you know, by
men at age 22 in clubs and I wascaught and businessmen and

(01:12:14):
stuff, you know, because we didn't have anything else,
homeless and stuff like that. So I think there's sort of
thing, I don't know if it's not trying to get into my story
here, but I think it kind of illustrates kind of how it can
be at the point of presentation.Because you get to a point of
presentation, your mental healthis going to be extremely low,
isn't it? Because you get to a point where

(01:12:34):
you go like, OK, I'm broken, I have to do something.
Yes, absolutely. Yes.
And so going back to the earlierquestion of, you know, you used
the word to gatekeeping about, you know, there needs to be
protections, but there's there has to be a limit.
At some point you need to acceptthat this is an individual that

(01:12:55):
needs to transition because if you gatekeep so much, you'll end
up not transitioning anybody. And that's the only way to
guarantee that there's going to be no deep transitioners.
What you've done is you've just made everything bad for
everybody, which doesn't help. So there needs to be a point
which you go, OK, this person needs to transition.

(01:13:17):
And yes, there will be some people who go past that point
and then find, oh, actually thishasn't really solved whatever it
was, But they are not. Yeah, Can I just add a point
though? So I don't mean to interrupt.
It's just that is that when you is that I was told, right.
So like, for example, I was toldon my first appointment, I said,
well, OK, we'll go to uni and transition.

(01:13:38):
So should we're not going to give you any hormones?
And and I think, and I think when people socially transition,
you know, pretty quickly really whether that that's going to be
the right thing for you because of of how it changes things.
And in some ways for me, obviously it made my life harder
in that I've got lots of difficulties with how people
treated with me. But actually in myself, I felt a
lot better. And as I was able to progress

(01:13:59):
through that, it was like that, you know, that the clouds parted
and there was blue skies. I know it's going to sound
really like really beautiful andeverything, but but, but for me,
it felt like my head cleared andI had this thing that I wasn't
having to deal with anymore. This dysphoria of just, you
know, just just having to sign. It was like I was putting on an
act before and and and and and Ithink that that that when people

(01:14:21):
it, it does surprise me a bit that someone could socially
transition for, you know, four years or something and then de
transition. So, you know, they're taking
that long to really work that out.
Yeah, it's not one isn't. It it isn't, I don't understand
what any of that process would be like.
I don't understand what the the mental anguish has to go

(01:14:43):
through. So, so I, I don't think that the
transitioners, just to summarise, I don't think that
the transitioners are a good argument for denying people to
transition at all. But they are also people that
need looking after. They need, they're also people
that need their own allies. But that should not create a

(01:15:05):
battleground where we fight overthe rights of trans people.
They are people. They deserve rights.
Let's just give it to them. And I should add as well, Matt,
Matt, what's really important isthat the, the regret rates are
extremely low for those that do transition.
And if you compare that with other surgeries, there's no
comparison really, you know, so gender affirming care, people

(01:15:30):
who are, who are trans like me, it's, you know, it's just, it's
essential. And I think that that, that
there's no regret in, in regard to all of the operations I've
had, not at all. More be same body programs will

(01:15:54):
also be good. One very specific example, there
was a trans person in the late in the recent series of Doctor
Who. I thought that was great,
etcetera. I thought the writing around
that particular episode was a little bit shit and weak.
But yes, let's celebrate that a trans person was at least
represented. Let's see more of that.
There have been other TV programmes I've saw which had

(01:16:16):
better representation of the trans people.
I welcome that. What other things can we as
society do? What can people who wish to be
alloys do in terms of lobbying or requests or just making a
positive representation of transpeople in society?
It's a big question. I mean, I think that, yeah, good

(01:16:39):
representation where it's fair. Like for example, I remember
that crazy series called Baby Reindeer and there was a trans
woman in that and she got yes for Piers, didn't she?
But actually she was the most more same person amongst all
what was going on, wasn't she? And it's also, it was a good
series. I did enjoy that one.
It was pretty crazy. I think there was also Heart
Stopper. I mean, you've got Yasmin trying

(01:17:00):
to think of her second name not doing the justice where she's a
trans girl at school and she hasrelationships and it's kind of,
you know, that kind of really was, I thought quite
groundbreaking. So I love stuff like that and I
love representation. What what can we do about?
I mean, I think, for example, tosay you get somebody who's
gender critical and or, or or oror or an organization says like,

(01:17:24):
well, OK, it becomes like apartheid.
Let's imagine apartheid with toilets.
So the hate the hate the toilet thing, the bathroom thing.
But it could be, couldn't it that they say, well, OK, trans,
we can't use the female toilets.But but if all the female women
said that, the sis women said, but but we're just going to you
can and it's fine. And there's no problem that

(01:17:45):
they're not Think it's about sometimes having to go against
and protest, isn't it really? I think that we could, yeah.
We can write to the government. I don't think the government
really listened, do they? So to, just to, to, to us mere
proletariats here, really. But I think that I think we, if
there's a protest on, go to it. There'll be lots of protests.

(01:18:07):
Stand there. We need SIS allies to stand with
us. You know, like my husband stood
with me, my roller Derby team stood with me, my good friends
stood with me, all to support me, which is fantastic.
And it feels, I think it's a support issue.
I always say with support, I'm OK, without support I'm not.
And my work had been really goodlike that.

(01:18:28):
And they, they supported me. They saw me cry on Wednesday and
sent me home and just said afterthe ruling and, and I said to my
manager, look, as long as I'm supported, I'm OK.
So I think the key thing as allies, what we must do is
always be supportive, realise that actually, you know, for the
last five days I've woken up andremembered that that court

(01:18:48):
ruling happened. And, and, and it's just in a
way, it's like a bad dream that that, but it's not a dream, you
know. So for me, it's it's take these
are my legal sex after having itfor 20 years is I just thought
that would never happen. So.
Yeah. And it's, it's all it's, it's OK

(01:19:11):
for me to, or it's not OK for meto just sit here as a, as a CIS
white male in my privileged middle class position and go, I
have no idea what that's like. Why should I care?
But I should care. Yeah, that's the difference.
I should care, stand up, say to people, look, you know, don't
let somebody, if you see someonebeing abused, do something about

(01:19:33):
it, call it out. It's not OK.
This isn't a licence to abuse. People like me who, you know,
have really just been victims all our lives, haven't we really
from something or another? And it's just another thing to
be a victim to, isn't it? Yes, absolutely.
I did have a question, but it's jumped straight out of my mind.
This is what happens when you get past 50.
I'm afraid I. Can.

(01:19:58):
I clearly need my lunch, so I guess that's wrapped up here and
we will talk again. At least I hope we will talk
again. This will be out onto the feed
in a couple of days. It's a pleasure to talk to you,
Lauren. I am so, so pleased that now
that I, I know you better than Iused to, now we can have
conversations that are constructive and productive and

(01:20:20):
they're not filtered through through a shitty screen of
prejudice that happened 20 plus years ago.
I am very pleased that about that.
Listeners, if you have questions, if you have thoughts,
[e-mail] or if you're seeing this on the
YouTube channel, if that's whereit ends up, comment below.

(01:20:41):
Thoughts, ideas. If you're a trans person or a
trans ally and you've got ideas on way that we can be better
people, please put them down there will be absolutely
delightful to have those kinds of things.
If you're just going to say something of not just just piss
off, We're not interested in those comments.
This is going to be a positive thing.
Please and and until next time be more trans.

(01:21:08):
Thank. You you have been listening to a
podcast from Reason Press. Do you have any thoughts on what
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(01:21:29):
would like us to cover? Please send all feedback to
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