December 22, 2024 • 45 mins
In this episode Matthew comments on a two part series of Christians talking about deconversion.
It really is as bad as you think it will be, and is one reason why Christians are spending far too much time talking and not enough time paying attention. The episodes are from the Apologetics Radio show and were published in 2021.
1) the original episodes
https://apologetics.com/deconversion/
https://apologetics.com/deconversion-part-2/
Apple podcast links
https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/deconversion/id91466394?i=1000529383652
https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/deconversion-part-2/id91466394?i=1000536435151
2) BIOLA
https://apologetics.com/author/jnoyes/
3) Jon Noyes
https://www.biola.edu/about/theological-positions?_gl=1*1qzn87w*_gcl_au*MjAzNTQ5MTgxNC4xNzMwNjI0NjA4*_ga*MTA3Nzc3MTE2OC4xNzIwODg2NTIw*_ga_YFBWBXLQJ7*MTczMDYyNDYwNy4zLjEuMTczMDYyNDcyOS4zNi4wLjA.
4) Deconstructionism
https://www.philosophybasics.com/movements_deconstructionism.html
5) Jon Steingard
https://open.spotify.com/episode/4BTWDakXuxtb8CaMTgzDSb
To contact us, email: reasonpress@gmail.com
our YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@reasonpress2901
Our Theme Music was written for us by Holly, to support her and to purchase her music use the links below:
https://hollykirstensongs.com/
https://hollykirsten.bandcamp.com/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
Episode 125 Christians misunderstand the conversion.
This is Matthew, and in this episode I'll be commenting on A2
part series of episodes of Christians talking about the
conversion. Yes, it really is as bad as you
think it will be, and there's one reason why.
Christians spending far too muchtime talking and not enough time
(00:26):
paying attention. The episodes I'll be picking
apart are from the Apologetics Radio show and were published in
2021. There are more Christian
podcasts on the same subject that I will be addressing in
future episodes, but I wanted toshowcase these two because they
are from a relatively well knownand popular Christian outlet and
(00:46):
they are consistent with what they still say today.
In the Christian world, change is slow.
The host is John Noyes, who in his bio says that he achieved an
honours in apologetics from Biola University.
See link 2. The original episodes are in
link one. Biola is a hothouse of shitty
(01:10):
evangelical Christianity. Read their statement of faith at
link 3 and you'll find this gem.Or those who persistently reject
Jesus Christ in the present lifewill be raised from the dead and
throughout eternity exist in thestate of conscious, unuttable,
endless torment of anguish. This is the God they want you to
(01:32):
worship and this is how they judge the de convert.
John's guest for the first episode are Eric and Joel, and
in the second are Chris and Chang.
You'll hear John's voice much more than the others in the
original episodes. I actually got fed up of hearing
just him in my review listens, getting the distinct impression
(01:52):
he's one of those people who can't bear not being the centre
of attention. Rest assured, I'll be skipping
through his chunks of pointless monologue so that you only get
to hear the juiciness. Let's start with how John
introduces Episode 1. What are you going to be talking
(02:14):
about, these deconstruction stories?
If you don't know what I mean bydeconstruction, it's super
simple. There's been this popular trend
where men and women have who have kind of grown up in the
church. They're they've been public
Christians, public figures of some kind, whether it be
musicians or Internet personalities or Youtubers or
authors or pastors. They follow Christ, they say
(02:35):
they're Christian, and then through a series of events, they
deconstruct. I'm saying that in quotes.
They deconstruct their faith andsay they're no longer following,
at least at the minimum. They're no longer following
traditional Jesus, traditional Christianity.
They'd say they're ex angelicalsis what they're calling
themselves. So they're ex evangelicals at at
(02:56):
worst they just completely walk away and they become agnostic or
atheists. It can be very troubling for a
committed Christian when someonethey know and respect leaves
Christian faith. I know this first hand because
my wife is still a Christian andwe've been navigating these
choppy waters together for more than 10 years.
It's hard on both parties. So in Christian leaders like
(03:18):
John in this episode, try to grasp why another Christian
leader would stop believing. It can be very difficult to
understand why, when someone like John believes
wholeheartedly that their God, the subject of their adoration,
is perfectly loving and that apostates face a terrible fate,
the confusion is real and the perplexity genuine.
(03:40):
I understand why John and otherswould seek explanations and
comfort in their own theology totry to understand what's going
on. The trouble is, it's this
insular thinking that blocks them from understanding those
who deconvert. While Christians continue to
explain those who leave the faith from within their own
bubble. They are doomed to never
(04:00):
understand us. I don't really like the term
deconstruction. Deconversion might be a little
bit better, but deconstruction Ithink is kind of confusing.
We can confuse it with postmodern movement, you know,
of deconstructionism. John is pointing out that the
word deconstruction is shared with the philosophy of
deconstructionism. C Link at 4.
(04:21):
Frankly, I don't think there is much scope for confusion on
this. For starters, most lay people
would not have heard of this philosophy, and as soon as you
say that it's religious deconstruction then any possible
confusion instantly evaporates. So deconversion or people kind
of just rethinking their faith and walking away ultimately, you
(04:42):
know, and I think it, it should concern us.
We should be concerned, but not worried because God is sovereign
and God is good. So everything that I'm going to
say tonight at least is couched in a, in a larger world view.
And I think that this is important to understand that my
world view is, is a Christian worldview, and it has room in it
for a God that is completely sovereign, that is always good.
(05:06):
And this is where the problems start.
I get that John has his worldview, but his worldview
includes projection onto others that they need salvation from
his God's wrath. If he views that he converted
through that lens, he's doomed to never understand them.
Who has gone through great extents to save us?
(05:26):
Save us from what, though, John?Save us from himself because he
created us to be incapable of meeting his exacting standards.
Try to comprehend what it is that drives people away, John.
And the theological component ofthis conversation, which I'm not
sure we're going to get into tonight, is that that he that he
doesn't let anybody go. You know, God will never leave
(05:49):
you or forsake you is what the Scripture says.
Never, never. Oh really?
Try telling that to somebody whoprayed to God, begged on their
knees many, many times night after night, and got nothing.
Absolutely nothing. He doesn't do that.
There's nothing that you can do or separate yourself from the
(06:10):
love of God that is in Christ Jesus.
Well, apart from ask God to showup, that is.
But why I say it should concern us, certain us, is because I
think that these deconstruction stories have have have have an
impact on our culture and then they actually especially have an
impact on our youth. Good, because if my story helps
one young person to rethink whether they want to commit to
(06:31):
this shitty religion, then job done.
Did a lot of the the stuff that I do at stand to Reason and a
lot of stuff that I do while I'mout speaking kind of around the
country and stuff is is often times in front of a large youth
audience. Otherwise known as
indoctrination because the audience is an audience of
people who have no choice but tobe there.
(06:53):
Just recently I did an atheist role play at our major Christian
high school. Yes, that's Sean McDowell level
of cringe. If you don't understand that
what it is that you critique, maybe don't try to role play it.
And a lot of those kids afterwards, it was interesting.
I went out with a group of maybe15 students after and a teacher
(07:16):
and her family, a lot of them were affected by these
deconversion stories. People like Rhett and Link,
they're huge YouTube personalities.
They're, they're sometimes considered like the first mega,
like YouTube stars. They've been around forever as
Christians. They were youth pastors and
stuff, I think. And eventually they, they now
deconstructed, they deconverted.But this, this stuff effects our
youth. And so it should, because it
(07:37):
opens up the Internet intellectual possibility that
Christianity actually is not allthat it's made out to be.
Gabraham Piper is another one. He's the son of John Piper, the
famous preacher and pastor of Bethlehem Church in Minnesota.
He deconverted is and he does all these these TikTok videos,
uses his time to, to talk with deconstruction and deconversion.
(08:00):
These things are are are affecting our youth because
they're relating to the digital content.
I think that we should be concerned with what's happening
in these deconversion stories. Yes, you should be concerned
because more and more people areleaving the Christian faith as
more and more people realize that it doesn't actually offer
much and is more harm than the Two's good.
(08:21):
But I also think that we should be careful how we react.
It's easy to kind of lose what'sactually happening here.
What's happening here is there'sa human being who's an immortal
soul wrestling with the most important thing that they will
ever wrestle with, and that is their ideas of who God is.
Yes, it is a very important thing, and maybe it is the most
(08:45):
important thing. I'll grant that Christians who
care about those of us who have left certainly do feel this way.
John is genuinely engaging with compassion here.
He has concern for someone and when done right, genuine concern
fosters genuine dialogue. But this concern is from an
(09:06):
exclusively Christian centred context and John is more
committed to being right than heis to being loving.
Which means, as you will hear later on, he quickly forgets
about compassion and goes back to condemnation and victim
blaming. So this moment is sadly short
lived. Paul in Romans 9 expresses
(09:28):
incredible heartbreak over the Jewish unbelief.
And he says this. He says I'm, I'm speaking the
truth in, in, in Christ. I'm not lying.
My conscience bears me witness to the holy in the Holy Spirit.
He he's lamenting the the fact that his brothers, his Jewish
(09:52):
brothers are, are rejecting Jesus, who is himself a Jew sent
from God to be their Messiah that they've been waiting for
for 1000 for 1000 years, you know, and they're rejecting
that. And then I see these D
conversions and I'm kind of relating Pauls words to that and
it's breaking my heart because these are real people.
(10:12):
And behind every struggle, behind every question is a
person. And I think that we need to keep
that in mind, especially when we're making video content, when
we're making content like this aradio show, are we being good
ambassadors of Christ? Are we putting on Christ's
heart? Oh how I do wish many, many more
Christians would take this attitude before opening their
(10:35):
mouths. For these people when we're
responding, yeah, know what? Rhett and Link Abraham Piper,
the guy from DC talks, you know,all of these people, John
Steingard, like he's another one, these famous people who are
de converting. They're they're losing their
faith or whatnot in the quotes, losing their faith.
(10:55):
I think their arguments are weak.
And there it is. The compassion is gone.
He just sees what they say as arguments.
He hasn't actually genuinely engaged with the real reasons
why they're left, he's just looking at their arguments
philosophically and theologically from his
perspective. And because he takes a different
view, they're obviously weak. OK, let's have a little bit of
(11:20):
apologetics baseball now, shall we?
Move on the sarcasm. They start with, you know,
questioning the authenticity of the historical reliability of
the Scriptures. I think that we have great
evidence for the historical reliability, especially of the
New Testament and specifically of the Gospels.
I think we can know that their actual history and the things
that are reported in them happened.
Except for the reliability problems with the birth
(11:42):
narrative of Jesus, the shoddy reliability of the resurrection
narrative with its conflicting versions of the events in the
garden the morning after, Then there is the inconvenient fact
that we can never know historically what people said or
if they really did do a miracle.So no, John, despite what you
might say, the Bible and especially the Gospels are not
(12:03):
reliable historical narratives. And then and when I read these
things, I got to be honest, guys, I, I kind of become undone
because because my own lack of sensitivity and my lack of
anguish over the potential loss of these people are.
Thank you for this honesty, John, and maybe that is a clue
that you should just bloody wellshut up and let somebody else
(12:24):
who does have compassion took. I am so sold out and in love
with Jesus I I can't even put inthe words what He means to me in
my life. I can't countenance what it
would be like to live without Him now.
That's great, John. Now spend a few moments thinking
about how it would affect you ifthat love you have for Jesus was
(12:47):
taken away from you and nothing you did would bring it back.
But you missed it and you foughtfor it.
But no matter what, that love was always too far out of reach.
And so you started mourning it. And then when you were done
mourning it, you got angry over the loss.
And then after that, you got depressed over it because you
felt guilty about the anger. And then you felt lost because
(13:10):
you had no idea how to get that meaning back into your life
again. And you approached those you
used to go to church with for help, but they rejected you
because you didn't have Jesus love anymore.
Put yourself in that mindset, John, and that will give you
just a little taster of what it is like.
(13:30):
And that really breaks my heart that there are people that have
at least expressed the idea thatthey've, they've experienced
this and are now saying no, no, no, no, no.
That was all a misunderstanding.That was all something else.
It wasn't an authentic relationship, it wasn't
(13:52):
something that happened with a real God, and that just breaks
my heart. And it broke their hearts to
John. And people like you enabled it,
and people like you were not there when they needed you.
I also I wonder if these people actually know what it is that
they're saying they're leaving. Yes they do.
You know, have have they actually tried true Christianity
(14:15):
is is my question. Oh, so if they don't believe
exactly like you, John, they haven't tried true Christianity,
is that it? Oh boy, there's going to be a
lot of disappointed people out there.
And I'm not saying that tongue in cheek.
I'm not trying to do that to be a jerk.
And yet that's exactly how you sound.
Especially Rhett of Rhett and Link.
It's I get the feeling that he'she tried the the, you know, the,
(14:37):
the Americanized, politicized, you know, cultural Christianity,
you know, like or progressive. Even like yeah, how dare he try
to be a better Christian. What a scumbag.
You know I'm talking about a Christianity that doesn't fit.
And maybe that's the problem. Because it's constantly pushing
me to morph and change and I think to be a better person
(14:58):
ultimately. How have you changed, John?
How have you become a better person?
But also to look more like a God.
Would this be the God that failed to answer when desperate
people needed help with their faith?
Would this be the God that despite his allegedly perfect
and holy Bible saying that the seeker shall find, the seekers
found nothing? Would this be the God that
(15:19):
ghosted these once faithful servants so badly that they were
pushed out of faith? This is the God you want to be
like, John, you Chirk. The Christianity that I'm
talking about isn't, isn't one that that ignores intellectual
investigation. You know, this is, this is a
Christianity that invites intellectual wrestling.
(15:41):
You know the scriptures tell us to hold to test all things
holding fast to that which is true.
And yet so many people who have done that leave.
Interesting. Not I can't.
I can't explain everything to you about God, but I can explain
an awful lot. And the things that I know don't
(16:03):
seem to comport with the things that these guys say that
they're. Leaving then obviously, John,
you still have something to learn.
So go and talk to these people, ask for a conversation where you
learn, not tell them what they did wrong, Joe.
Oh, I haven't watched very much of that, but I have I I have a
(16:23):
deconversion story of my own. I think it has a lot to do with
the just the story of, say, disappointment with their
experience. When Christianity and God failed
to live up to expectations, it is massively disappointing.
And that's that's a hard thing because a lot of times in church
(16:45):
settings, people don't feel likethey're encouraged to explore
those questions. This whole rewarding faith thing
that tends to be a theme in the whole Bible, it's got a lot to
answer for, hasn't it? People are told you need to
believe XY and Z. They say, OK, I'll, I'll believe
XY and Z. And then something happens and
they start, they, they question XY and Z.
(17:05):
They don't get a satisfactory answer.
And they go, well, if all of my base, if I based everything on
XY and Z and I can't answer thatnow, what's the point?
This is very simplified, but yeah, a lot of people, it starts
that way. They realise Christianity
doesn't work anymore, doesn't work for this or that or
anything else that you promised.So we'll get questioned.
But that's the fault of Christianity, not the
(17:27):
questioner. Yeah, yeah, that's interesting.
I think if, if I could get some of these guys in the room with
me, I would love to ask them. There's two, there's there's
really two questions that I'd love to ask them up front.
Then just some follow-ups. But I'd like to ask them what is
it that you're leaving? I want to know what they're
leaving. And then I'd ask them what's
replacing it. I'm leaving or left controlling
(17:51):
toxic manipulation and I replaced it with nothing because
when you cut a cancer out of a body you don't put anything back
into it. Because nature abhors a vacuum.
Stopping believing in bullshit superstitions does not create a
vacuum. Everybody has a worldview,
whether you believe it or not. World views, everybody has a
(18:15):
worldview. So if you're leaving the
Christian worldview, what world view is is placing it in?
The question of world view replacement is certainly
interesting, and it is a subjectworthy of its own episode or 10.
What is being suggested here is that the rejection of the
Christian God somehow removes anentire world view from the
individual, leaving some sort ofworld view hole that must be
(18:39):
filled. This, of course, is utter
nonsense. Our world views are an
amalgamation of various nested beliefs and social preferences.
Our world views change over time.
Sometimes imperceptible, they shift as a result of life
experiences and social relationships.
They are not rigid, compartmentalized units that get
(19:02):
removed and replaced when we reject a belief we once held.
So when I hear these guys sayingI'm leaving Christianity, I hear
them say I did XY and Z, therefore I was a Christian.
I went to YWAM. I started a small group network.
I was a pastor. I, you know, evangelized at
(19:23):
Newport Beach. I did XY and I used to preach.
I used to do this. Never has there been.
I came to a realization of who Iwas, who God is, and what He's
done for me. John, you're a stinking piece of
shit. This is a classic example of
(19:44):
Christians being disingenuous about those who leave the faith.
And it happens all the fucking time.
It's tedious to hear and this istypical of meanie mouth
Christian apologists blaming thevictims for what went wrong.
John is conveniently forgetting that at the time these former
Christians did those things, they were Christians and they
(20:07):
would all have credited their Christianity for motivating them
to do those things. Also the reason why former
Christians tend not to report ontheir initial conversion or
state that they came to a realisation of needing Christ or
of what Christ did for them. It's because all that is
negative. They don't want to dwell on the
(20:27):
shittiest parts of their indoctrination.
Have some grace, John. Like you, never has there been.
I came to the realization that Iam a a Wretch of a human being
and God bestowed His infinite grace on me, ripped me out of my
mess and into His marvellous light.
(20:48):
Because that is psychological abuse.
I don't report on my initial conversion for that very reason.
It's shitty. And never has anybody.
And I don't know if they know that or if it's not intentional.
I'm not saying it's it's bad. I just say I've never heard that
before. So I'd like that clarification.
What exactly is it that you're leaving?
Because it sounds to me like you're leaving a bunch of works.
(21:09):
We're leaving an abusive, patriarchal, controlling
religious cult. These people are coming out.
They've lived Christian lives. That, they would say, defines
their Christian faith. No, they say the Christian faith
motivated them to live the livesthat they did and.
And now there's these doubts, these intellectual doubts and
(21:31):
stuff that happened and, and they're just never addressed or
they're addressed really, reallypoorly.
When you go to your pastor and you say, hey, can you explain it
to me? Oh, just just believe you need
faith. Yeah, that's a really bad
response and sadly some people get it, Even me.
You know, how can I really know that that the scriptures are
historically reliable? You can't.
(21:53):
There's really good answers. If the answers were really
actually that good, you wouldn'thave so many people leaving.
We've kind of conflated dealt with unbelief or we're told
they're like kind of. This is true, and it is really
nice to hear this acknowledgement that way too
often Christian leaders fail thedoubters.
In those contexts, you're getting seeds planet.
(22:15):
A lot of Christians don't live as though they're in actually in
a war. No.
With entities that are doing battle for your soul.
That's right, apostates. These doubts are not your
intellectual wisdom playing havoc with your ridiculous
beliefs. No, it's the evil eye of Soren
(22:35):
doing battle for your soul. That's right.
You have no control what's goingon.
It's Lord of the Rings, but withghosts.
Yeah. Yeah, that's.
Bad or they do accept that, and their response is to to
hideaway, hide their children away from as many worldly
influences as possible. Oh, the childhood trauma stories
(22:57):
I've seen about certain types ofmusic, certain games, certain TV
programs. That strategy can have negative
effects as well. No shit dude, tell us more about
it. The devil is is prowling around
like a roaring, lying, seeking someone to deserve to devour.
And again with denial of intellectual integrity and
(23:18):
invoking demons. Sometimes we don't live
according to that reality. It's really easy not to, to be
honest with you, because we livein a world that is there's an
unseen realm. They see hypocrisy within the
church. That's because there is.
Or they quest start questioning the reliability of the Bible.
(23:41):
That's because it is questionable.
I would say doubt out loud, doubt out loud.
I agree, do your doubting out loud.
In fact you know what doubts allowed to be a really good name
for a podcast? Why don't you look it up?
So get yourself in a in a tight group of people that you trust
(24:03):
and talk about your concerns. Because know what If you have
the concern, I guarantee you oneof your other friends has the
concern. Sure they might, but as many of
us have found out to our cost, not many people are prepared to
be honest about it. And this is a problem.
He acknowledged earlier that Christians have a problem with
(24:23):
this acknowledgement. They do, and it fuels
deconstruction. These are questions that have
been asked for 2000 years. Then where are the answers that
stop people leaving? And like I said, they're really
good questions, but there's really good answers.
Well, they're obviously not really good if they're not
stopping people leaving. Hey, we have a call.
We've got Richard on line one. Hey, Richard, are you with us?
(24:46):
Well, the call was rubbish and the audio quality was a bit
yeah, so I'm going to skip. It no matter what world view you
hold to, you want to believe what's true, and if it's not
true, I don't want. To believe it, I wholeheartedly
endorse that sentiment. The question is, what
methodology do you use to determine what's true, and how
(25:07):
do you show its reliability? If this what I believe isn't
true, I don't want to believe it.
I don't want to believe it for one more minute.
Great. What are you actually doing to
validate whether or not it is true and which parts might be
almost true and need improving? How do you validate any of it?
That's that's where I would go to.
I think that you you have to establish the truth and and of
(25:30):
who of whose Christ is and greathow?
Tell me how? Because if you think about the
world having a purpose, how, howcan we access what that purpose
is? So God does, just as the enemy
attacks us on both sides, the head and the heart side, God
(25:50):
also restores. Yeah, through both sides.
Anyway, you're not just going tomove on and fail to answer your
own question, are you? That's like that's so good.
One of the major objections thatI think carries with with it
weight that the non believers bring is to to to us is the
hiddenness of God. Yes, God is so hidden he may as
well not exist. And if you find yourself, hey,
(26:11):
if you guys, if you're out thereright now and you find yourself
in this, this place where you'reseverely doubting your faith.
And without addressing the hiddenness either, they roll
into the finale. Hang on, we're going to have
Part 2 shortly. A lot of people are right where
you are, they just might not be talking about it.
Find that that group of people. Find that person, that one 2-3
(26:32):
or four people. The Deep Conversion Anonymous
Facebook group is a really good place to go if you're in the UK.
The UK Xvangelical Facebook group.
But in both cases, don't be a Dick or we'll give you the kick.
Well, I am in studio with. Oh my gosh, two of my my amazing
(26:52):
friends. You guys just met this evening.
But I'm with Chris. You were on last week.
Yes, you were here. Yep, Yep.
Lending to us your incredible mind to talk about all things
art and God and it was so much fun and I don't know if any of
you remember but Chang man, it'sbeen a while I.
(27:13):
Know it's been a while. I think last time was, were we
talking about Kanye? We were talking about Kanye.
We talked. Well, you don't need the 20
minutes of intro bullshit, do you?
Let's get straight back down to the sarcasm bait, shall we?
Hang 5. We're getting there.
(27:34):
Here's Part 2 with John, Chris and Chen.
So hey, what do you guys think you want to talk about tonight?
I mean, I'm just kind of throwing it out there.
We've talked about a couple different things.
Deconversion. Yeah, I mean, that's a big, huge
topic right now, at least in Christendom.
I think so too, right. Yeah.
And so, so when we say deconversion, I just want to
(27:56):
just kind of clarify the issue. Basically somebody who is
otherwise a Christian, they evaluate or re evaluate their
worldview and they start deconstructing it bit by bit.
And at the end of the deconstruction process, however
long it lasts, they went from being a Christian to a either
(28:17):
non Christian or somebody that'sin the progressive Christian
camp. So the progressive Christian
camp would be churches that still call themselves Christian.
Holy shit John, who died and made you the arbitral of who is
a Christian and who isn't Jesus Christ.
They they ultimately form a God in their own image, I think a
(28:37):
lot of times. So it's more complicated than
that. But so that's, I just wanted to
get that definition kind of out of the way.
And yeah, it's pretty crazy. It's affecting people, huh?
It's affecting me and it's affecting.
Yeah, man. And it's affecting me and my
distance as well. Oh no.
You know, like I said, it's a big topic I think in all of our
lives because there's a lot of famous people that are kind of
(28:58):
doing this in the open, in public.
And long may they continue to doso because it shows that they
have integrity and honesty because it costs them dear often
in terms of personal relationships and public
criticism. So long may they continue to do
it because that gives a message to other people that it is OK to
(29:19):
do this because they will also see how they get welcomed by the
deconstruction community. You guys you're.
Awesome. But I've also been experiencing
in my own life, friends, close friends who have told me that
they have entered into this phase of deconstruction, and
some of them come out on the other side pretty much atheist.
(29:42):
I've had sleepless nights, man, to be honest.
Really. Oh yeah.
Yeah, that's not good. You've had sleepless nights.
Holy shit, guy. Did you ask them what it was
like for them about all of theirsleepless nights?
Or of their panic attacks? Or they're terrible moments of
doubt and prayer? The sweating.
You need to talk to those guys. Ask them what it was like for
(30:03):
them. Well, I guess it is good because
you have a heart for these people, right?
I mean. You.
Yeah, No, it's grieving. It is.
It's. Grieving.
For sure. Yeah, you're grieving so much
that you can't even come onto a podcast and tell them they're
great people and give us the details of how hard it is to
deconstruct because you've talked to them.
That's how hard it is for you. You're grieving so much.
You have to come on here and critique the entire process.
(30:25):
Yeah, grieving. You know, actually Chang, if you
remember, if you remember like 17 years ago when we did the
show together, but we we talked about Joshua Harris.
Do you remember doing that show?He wrote the.
I kissed dating goodbye I. Kissed dating goodbye and I
remember when that book came outI wasn't no about.
It no guys were no guys were we all hated.
(30:45):
Get this out of my face and. Oh, come on.
Do you expect me to believe thatyou were all for that book?
Come on, let's be honest. He ended up deconstructing,
deconverting and his is a sad story, I think, because I think
his marriage ended in divorce and so something was going on
behind the scenes. And I actually remember as we
were doing that show, I rememberthinking that, well, I wonder
(31:08):
what this guy, what's in honestly, what's in this guy has
in his life that is causing him to run from Christ in such an
extreme manner? Wow, just wow.
You actually went there John, you shit eating cock crumble.
Fucking hell. When we navigate the world
around us, we bump into reality.For example, when I was an
(31:29):
atheist, right, I would try to live according to my atheism.
But it it was, it became impossible because I started
bumping into things first. I started bumping into the
existence of stuff, stuff all around me.
There's, there's stuff everywhere.
Where to come from, how to get here.
My atheism couldn't explain that.
Huh, sounds like someone failed in science.
(31:49):
Man bumps knee against table andgoes ow there must be a God.
And but the a major one for me was the bump of, I call it the
bump of Ouch. It's the it's a bump into a
moral realism. And so there is a morality that
undergirds everything in in life.
Morality is a social construct, yes, and social constructs do
(32:11):
tend to have a habit of undergirding our behaviour as
part of a society. Right.
And we have consciences given tous by the Holy Spirit.
Yeah, you're going to have to demonstrate the Holy Spirit to
exist, because consciousness is an emergent property from the
behaviour of the brain. And when we violate that
conscience, every single person feels guilty.
(32:31):
Social conditioning a very fortunate feature of evolution
because that enables us to have a functioning society.
And oftentimes I find that when people often times, sometimes,
how about that? Sometimes they'll soften it.
Sometimes when people leave their faith, one of my first
thoughts I think is I wonder what sin this person has in
their life that's causing them to run from Jesus.
(32:53):
Oh, do fuck off. Seriously, this is where you're
going to go with that again, Jimmy Swaggart.
Let's talk about Jimmy Swaggart and all those other sinful
Christians that Christians like to cover up for and embrace.
Hey, talk to me about sin helping up all those people,
yeah, fucking hypocrite. Because you can't live in that
(33:15):
tension forever. Thousands of pastors managed it.
So you have to eventually make achoice.
Am I gonna hold on to my sin? Yeah, I'm bored of this holier
than now card. I'm going to skip on to the
next. Bit not every instance like
that, these decon, these deconstruction, these
deconversion guys. John Steingard.
He was the lead singer of Hawk Nelson.
Andrew and I had a fantastic conversation back in November
(33:38):
2020 with John Steingart. See episode 40 link #5 in the
show notes. It's interesting when I listen
to these guys talk, there's justquestions that I'd like to ask
them and they're just not being asked of them.
Like what is the gospel? That's because now that they're
out, they see the gospel messageslightly differently.
Listen to that. You know what?
(33:59):
What did Jesus save you from? The bad shit he was going to do
if you dared to say I don't knowthat you exist.
I don't want to be that voice that's they were never Christian
in the first place. Then don't say it.
Don't think it. Don't even hint it.
Stop. Don't do it.
And that might be what I believe.
Yeah, maybe don't say that either, douche.
(34:20):
The sovereignty of God and how He elects is His people is God's
business. So God unelected these people.
It was never a choice for these people to leave.
God pushed them out because he no longer chose them.
Is that what you're saying? I'm fine with that.
I'm comfortable with that. You're fine and comfortable with
your God deciding to unelect people and therefore condemn
(34:43):
them to eternal conscious torment.
You're really fine with that. You really want to worship that
God. You think that God is loving?
Really. I hear these people's stories.
It was never like I was broken. I needed somebody to repair me.
That's because those who leave recognize that message as a
(35:03):
truly wicked, toxic, harmful, poisonous message.
So they reject it and they don'tacknowledge it.
With every story that I've heardis there is something that
creeps into their idea of the Word of God, that that begins to
lessen the authority of scripture, that begins to make
(35:24):
the Word of God less authoritative.
Yes, it's called learning that the gospel, the New Testament,
the Bible was written by people,not supernaturally.
Less inerrant and more of a fluid concept, and every single
story I've heard begins with thequestioning of the authority of
(35:47):
scripture. And so they should, because
Scripture does not have the authority that you think it
does. My relationship with God is
robust. It's very, very real.
My like, I I, I feel like I knowJesus, like I know my wife.
Dear, not only is that weird, it's not possible, but OK.
(36:07):
I I wish that they could just know the God that that I know.
Then next time you're having oneof these intimate conversations
with Jesus, ask him why he's nothaving that conversation with
them. So just to him that maybe he
could reveal himself to those people the way he reveals
himself to you. Because it's not their fault.
He's holding back, it's his fault, it's Jesus fault, it's
(36:29):
God's fault. Tell them to buck up.
They reject God based on the existence of evil, the existence
of suffering, and then the existence of hell.
That's because they recognise that when it comes to the
parental analogy of God to his people, they recognise that
they're actually better than God.
That's a tough lesson to learn, but it's also liberating, and
(36:52):
that's why that happens. I feel strongly that the whole
point of deconstruction is really the ancient lie.
Hath God really said? Not a lie.
God hath really not said that. Is can you really trust what the
scriptures say? No, you can't.
Can you really believe that Jonah was swallowed by a big
(37:17):
fish? No, Nope.
Nope, definitely not. I have yet to hear of anybody
that comes out on the other sideof deconversion or
deconstruction or whatever you want to call it, with a solid,
grounded, biblical, robust faith.
That's because what you define as a robust biblical faith is
(37:38):
literalism, is inerrancy. And that is bullshit, that is
toxic, that's militative, that is controlling, and that is bad
for everybody. That's why, because they are
actually deconstructing that, because it is the worst part of
Christianity you could possibly.Have they come kind of go into
it with their minds made-up, almost looking for excuses?
(38:01):
No, that's not it, you judge. Mental prick.
I don't want to put that into every single situation, but I
can honestly say that there there's a reason why.
Yeah, your brand of fundamental toxic Christianity doesn't work.
It's bad for their mental healthso they have to get out for
their own sanity. Well, we also know it's
(38:22):
spiritual, right? Sorry, what?
So there's a spiritual battle raging, right?
Ephesians 6. We can expect people to fall
away in the last days. People are falling away when we
say last days, we may in these days, right?
The last days are are everythingpost resurrection.
OK, so God is letting people fall away because it fulfills a
(38:42):
prophecy and it's somehow the people's fault for
deconstructing? Yeah, making make sense, dude
and. We also know that the that we're
not responsible for people's salvation.
I can't save anything. I can't resurrect anything, but
God can't. Then why doesn't he when those
very people pray and beg on their knees for that?
(39:03):
It's easy to cast upon somebody that we don't know.
Ah, yeah. Maybe they just weren't safe.
That's a good point. You know what?
I. Mean.
And that's you being really, really shitty.
But then when it's like your tribe and you're like, dude, I
know this guy and I know he's, I've, I've, he was taught the
same way I was taught and he believes the same things I will.
There's in ways in which this guy is a better Christian than I
(39:27):
was. You know what I mean?
And to see these guys give up ontheir faith, that's when it's
like, holy moly, this is a real issue.
You know this is a real thing. So what you're going to do about
it? Is it going to change your
outlook? Is it going to change your
perspective? Is it going to change how you
relate to these people? How are you going to sit down
with your friend and learn? How do you respond to them?
(39:49):
Different ones like I've got a buddy who's flirting with the
process and I'm literally just texting him and talking with him
and just saying and basically just like flee.
Flee from the wrath to come. I'm I'm basically just kind of
like pleading with him like, heyman, dig in.
If you've got issues with the authenticity of scripture, if
(40:10):
you've got issues with the Canon, if you've got issues with
all of these scriptural ideas and how it came to be and, and
in the in the councils and all that stuff, dig into it.
It's there and the arguments arethere, and the reasoning is
there and the and the the reasonto fall on the side of yes, this
(40:33):
is true and authoritative is there, the arguments are there.
And yet many thousands every year fail to be convinced.
Always answers prayers. Sometimes he says no.
I always, I sell this to my kidsand I'll say, well, God always
answers you. He says one of three things.
Yes, Maybe no. And those doubters who begged on
their knees for God to help themto believe again, what answer
(40:55):
did he give them? And you're still blaming the
deconstructor and saying it's their fault.
That there's no excuse. There's no valid excuse.
The scripture says that you knowunbelievers are without.
Excuse yeah, you're just a pieceof shit.
You literally just said God did it and you're blaming the person
who had to leave. Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you
(41:19):
and. I think Romans one talks about
it is a spiritual they're suppressing the truth in
unrighteous. Right.
No, God let them down, failed toanswer their prayer and said he
didn't want them. People without the Holy Spirit
are wired to reject truth. I do wish you'd make your mind
up to a bucket. Is it our fault or is it God's
(41:41):
fault for making us this way andrejecting us?
Choose your side. I was thinking about the four
soils, actually. Yeah.
And Jesus talked about. The parable of the four soils
does not help your case. All that affirms is God made
everybody that way and it's his fault shitting hell.
(42:05):
That's the importance of gettinginvolved in a local body.
Yeah, that's a, that's an important thing to get sewn in,
to get grafted in to a local body of, of, of solid believers.
You know where the Bible is preached, where the word is
exposited. Yes, do that because that is how
a cult is formed. God.
(42:27):
I, I, I read a quote online by Douglas Grutais, who is, I think
he teaches at Denver Seminary. Like he's just brilliant.
I love his books. And he literally wrote the
textbook on Christian apologetics.
It's called Christian Apologetics and by him and he,
he wrote literally I think todayhe wrote in like a meme thing.
I deconstruct and reconstruct myfaith every single day.
(42:49):
Yeah, well, if you can manage todo that inside of a single day,
you're not doing it right now. I was unable to find the quote
in question, but if I have foundthe right person, I also found
this quote. At the heart of the
deconstruction explosion is a rejection of biblical authority.
Deconstruction emphasises personal autonomy, the authority
(43:11):
of the self. Now, second-half of that I take
issue with, and I think this guyis part of the team of people
that blames the deconstructor for what happens.
Yeah, he's a shit. Deconstruct for reconstruction,
not deconstruct for deconstruction.
Only if it's worth reconstructing afterwards.
(43:33):
And Christianity ain't that. Go go read Mike Lacona, Gary
Habermas, Linda Mcgrew, read these people.
Those are Christians. Yeah, because people who already
believe this shit are really thebest people to listen to.
Fucking hell, all of those people he named, Mcgrew, Lacona,
and especially Habermas are really shitty people at the
(43:57):
historicity of the New Testament.
And that's all we got for you tonight, guys.
And good day to you too, dear listener.
If you are having issues with your doubts and you're not
already part of the deconstruction community, go
onto Facebook and search for Deconstruction Anonymous.
It is without a doubt the best place where you can land to talk
(44:18):
about your face doubts. Until next time, I'm Matthew and
this is. You have been listening to a
podcast from Reason Press. Do you have any thoughts on what
you've just heard? Do you have a topic that you
(44:39):
would like us to cover? Please send all feedback to
reasonpress@gmail.com. You might even appear on an
episode. Our theme music was written for
us by Holly. To hear more of her music, see
the links in our show notes.
Episode 125 Christians misunderstand the conversion.
This is Matthew, and in this episode I'll be commenting on A2
part series of episodes of Christians talking about the
conversion. Yes, it really is as bad as you
think it will be, and there's one reason why.
Christians spending far too muchtime talking and not enough time
(00:26):
paying attention. The episodes I'll be picking
apart are from the Apologetics Radio show and were published in
2021. There are more Christian
podcasts on the same subject that I will be addressing in
future episodes, but I wanted toshowcase these two because they
are from a relatively well knownand popular Christian outlet and
(00:46):
they are consistent with what they still say today.
In the Christian world, change is slow.
The host is John Noyes, who in his bio says that he achieved an
honours in apologetics from Biola University.
See link 2. The original episodes are in
link one. Biola is a hothouse of shitty
(01:10):
evangelical Christianity. Read their statement of faith at
link 3 and you'll find this gem.Or those who persistently reject
Jesus Christ in the present lifewill be raised from the dead and
throughout eternity exist in thestate of conscious, unuttable,
endless torment of anguish. This is the God they want you to
(01:32):
worship and this is how they judge the de convert.
John's guest for the first episode are Eric and Joel, and
in the second are Chris and Chang.
You'll hear John's voice much more than the others in the
original episodes. I actually got fed up of hearing
just him in my review listens, getting the distinct impression
(01:52):
he's one of those people who can't bear not being the centre
of attention. Rest assured, I'll be skipping
through his chunks of pointless monologue so that you only get
to hear the juiciness. Let's start with how John
introduces Episode 1. What are you going to be talking
(02:14):
about, these deconstruction stories?
If you don't know what I mean bydeconstruction, it's super
simple. There's been this popular trend
where men and women have who have kind of grown up in the
church. They're they've been public
Christians, public figures of some kind, whether it be
musicians or Internet personalities or Youtubers or
authors or pastors. They follow Christ, they say
(02:35):
they're Christian, and then through a series of events, they
deconstruct. I'm saying that in quotes.
They deconstruct their faith andsay they're no longer following,
at least at the minimum. They're no longer following
traditional Jesus, traditional Christianity.
They'd say they're ex angelicalsis what they're calling
themselves. So they're ex evangelicals at at
(02:56):
worst they just completely walk away and they become agnostic or
atheists. It can be very troubling for a
committed Christian when someonethey know and respect leaves
Christian faith. I know this first hand because
my wife is still a Christian andwe've been navigating these
choppy waters together for more than 10 years.
It's hard on both parties. So in Christian leaders like
(03:18):
John in this episode, try to grasp why another Christian
leader would stop believing. It can be very difficult to
understand why, when someone like John believes
wholeheartedly that their God, the subject of their adoration,
is perfectly loving and that apostates face a terrible fate,
the confusion is real and the perplexity genuine.
(03:40):
I understand why John and otherswould seek explanations and
comfort in their own theology totry to understand what's going
on. The trouble is, it's this
insular thinking that blocks them from understanding those
who deconvert. While Christians continue to
explain those who leave the faith from within their own
bubble. They are doomed to never
(04:00):
understand us. I don't really like the term
deconstruction. Deconversion might be a little
bit better, but deconstruction Ithink is kind of confusing.
We can confuse it with postmodern movement, you know,
of deconstructionism. John is pointing out that the
word deconstruction is shared with the philosophy of
deconstructionism. C Link at 4.
(04:21):
Frankly, I don't think there is much scope for confusion on
this. For starters, most lay people
would not have heard of this philosophy, and as soon as you
say that it's religious deconstruction then any possible
confusion instantly evaporates. So deconversion or people kind
of just rethinking their faith and walking away ultimately, you
(04:42):
know, and I think it, it should concern us.
We should be concerned, but not worried because God is sovereign
and God is good. So everything that I'm going to
say tonight at least is couched in a, in a larger world view.
And I think that this is important to understand that my
world view is, is a Christian worldview, and it has room in it
for a God that is completely sovereign, that is always good.
(05:06):
And this is where the problems start.
I get that John has his worldview, but his worldview
includes projection onto others that they need salvation from
his God's wrath. If he views that he converted
through that lens, he's doomed to never understand them.
Who has gone through great extents to save us?
(05:26):
Save us from what, though, John?Save us from himself because he
created us to be incapable of meeting his exacting standards.
Try to comprehend what it is that drives people away, John.
And the theological component ofthis conversation, which I'm not
sure we're going to get into tonight, is that that he that he
doesn't let anybody go. You know, God will never leave
(05:49):
you or forsake you is what the Scripture says.
Never, never. Oh really?
Try telling that to somebody whoprayed to God, begged on their
knees many, many times night after night, and got nothing.
Absolutely nothing. He doesn't do that.
There's nothing that you can do or separate yourself from the
(06:10):
love of God that is in Christ Jesus.
Well, apart from ask God to showup, that is.
But why I say it should concern us, certain us, is because I
think that these deconstruction stories have have have have an
impact on our culture and then they actually especially have an
impact on our youth. Good, because if my story helps
one young person to rethink whether they want to commit to
(06:31):
this shitty religion, then job done.
Did a lot of the the stuff that I do at stand to Reason and a
lot of stuff that I do while I'mout speaking kind of around the
country and stuff is is often times in front of a large youth
audience. Otherwise known as
indoctrination because the audience is an audience of
people who have no choice but tobe there.
(06:53):
Just recently I did an atheist role play at our major Christian
high school. Yes, that's Sean McDowell level
of cringe. If you don't understand that
what it is that you critique, maybe don't try to role play it.
And a lot of those kids afterwards, it was interesting.
I went out with a group of maybe15 students after and a teacher
(07:16):
and her family, a lot of them were affected by these
deconversion stories. People like Rhett and Link,
they're huge YouTube personalities.
They're, they're sometimes considered like the first mega,
like YouTube stars. They've been around forever as
Christians. They were youth pastors and
stuff, I think. And eventually they, they now
deconstructed, they deconverted.But this, this stuff effects our
youth. And so it should, because it
(07:37):
opens up the Internet intellectual possibility that
Christianity actually is not allthat it's made out to be.
Gabraham Piper is another one. He's the son of John Piper, the
famous preacher and pastor of Bethlehem Church in Minnesota.
He deconverted is and he does all these these TikTok videos,
uses his time to, to talk with deconstruction and deconversion.
(08:00):
These things are are are affecting our youth because
they're relating to the digital content.
I think that we should be concerned with what's happening
in these deconversion stories. Yes, you should be concerned
because more and more people areleaving the Christian faith as
more and more people realize that it doesn't actually offer
much and is more harm than the Two's good.
(08:21):
But I also think that we should be careful how we react.
It's easy to kind of lose what'sactually happening here.
What's happening here is there'sa human being who's an immortal
soul wrestling with the most important thing that they will
ever wrestle with, and that is their ideas of who God is.
Yes, it is a very important thing, and maybe it is the most
(08:45):
important thing. I'll grant that Christians who
care about those of us who have left certainly do feel this way.
John is genuinely engaging with compassion here.
He has concern for someone and when done right, genuine concern
fosters genuine dialogue. But this concern is from an
(09:06):
exclusively Christian centred context and John is more
committed to being right than heis to being loving.
Which means, as you will hear later on, he quickly forgets
about compassion and goes back to condemnation and victim
blaming. So this moment is sadly short
lived. Paul in Romans 9 expresses
(09:28):
incredible heartbreak over the Jewish unbelief.
And he says this. He says I'm, I'm speaking the
truth in, in, in Christ. I'm not lying.
My conscience bears me witness to the holy in the Holy Spirit.
He he's lamenting the the fact that his brothers, his Jewish
(09:52):
brothers are, are rejecting Jesus, who is himself a Jew sent
from God to be their Messiah that they've been waiting for
for 1000 for 1000 years, you know, and they're rejecting
that. And then I see these D
conversions and I'm kind of relating Pauls words to that and
it's breaking my heart because these are real people.
(10:12):
And behind every struggle, behind every question is a
person. And I think that we need to keep
that in mind, especially when we're making video content, when
we're making content like this aradio show, are we being good
ambassadors of Christ? Are we putting on Christ's
heart? Oh how I do wish many, many more
Christians would take this attitude before opening their
(10:35):
mouths. For these people when we're
responding, yeah, know what? Rhett and Link Abraham Piper,
the guy from DC talks, you know,all of these people, John
Steingard, like he's another one, these famous people who are
de converting. They're they're losing their
faith or whatnot in the quotes, losing their faith.
(10:55):
I think their arguments are weak.
And there it is. The compassion is gone.
He just sees what they say as arguments.
He hasn't actually genuinely engaged with the real reasons
why they're left, he's just looking at their arguments
philosophically and theologically from his
perspective. And because he takes a different
view, they're obviously weak. OK, let's have a little bit of
(11:20):
apologetics baseball now, shall we?
Move on the sarcasm. They start with, you know,
questioning the authenticity of the historical reliability of
the Scriptures. I think that we have great
evidence for the historical reliability, especially of the
New Testament and specifically of the Gospels.
I think we can know that their actual history and the things
that are reported in them happened.
Except for the reliability problems with the birth
(11:42):
narrative of Jesus, the shoddy reliability of the resurrection
narrative with its conflicting versions of the events in the
garden the morning after, Then there is the inconvenient fact
that we can never know historically what people said or
if they really did do a miracle.So no, John, despite what you
might say, the Bible and especially the Gospels are not
(12:03):
reliable historical narratives. And then and when I read these
things, I got to be honest, guys, I, I kind of become undone
because because my own lack of sensitivity and my lack of
anguish over the potential loss of these people are.
Thank you for this honesty, John, and maybe that is a clue
that you should just bloody wellshut up and let somebody else
(12:24):
who does have compassion took. I am so sold out and in love
with Jesus I I can't even put inthe words what He means to me in
my life. I can't countenance what it
would be like to live without Him now.
That's great, John. Now spend a few moments thinking
about how it would affect you ifthat love you have for Jesus was
(12:47):
taken away from you and nothing you did would bring it back.
But you missed it and you foughtfor it.
But no matter what, that love was always too far out of reach.
And so you started mourning it. And then when you were done
mourning it, you got angry over the loss.
And then after that, you got depressed over it because you
felt guilty about the anger. And then you felt lost because
(13:10):
you had no idea how to get that meaning back into your life
again. And you approached those you
used to go to church with for help, but they rejected you
because you didn't have Jesus love anymore.
Put yourself in that mindset, John, and that will give you
just a little taster of what it is like.
(13:30):
And that really breaks my heart that there are people that have
at least expressed the idea thatthey've, they've experienced
this and are now saying no, no, no, no, no.
That was all a misunderstanding.That was all something else.
It wasn't an authentic relationship, it wasn't
(13:52):
something that happened with a real God, and that just breaks
my heart. And it broke their hearts to
John. And people like you enabled it,
and people like you were not there when they needed you.
I also I wonder if these people actually know what it is that
they're saying they're leaving. Yes they do.
You know, have have they actually tried true Christianity
(14:15):
is is my question. Oh, so if they don't believe
exactly like you, John, they haven't tried true Christianity,
is that it? Oh boy, there's going to be a
lot of disappointed people out there.
And I'm not saying that tongue in cheek.
I'm not trying to do that to be a jerk.
And yet that's exactly how you sound.
Especially Rhett of Rhett and Link.
It's I get the feeling that he'she tried the the, you know, the,
(14:37):
the Americanized, politicized, you know, cultural Christianity,
you know, like or progressive. Even like yeah, how dare he try
to be a better Christian. What a scumbag.
You know I'm talking about a Christianity that doesn't fit.
And maybe that's the problem. Because it's constantly pushing
me to morph and change and I think to be a better person
(14:58):
ultimately. How have you changed, John?
How have you become a better person?
But also to look more like a God.
Would this be the God that failed to answer when desperate
people needed help with their faith?
Would this be the God that despite his allegedly perfect
and holy Bible saying that the seeker shall find, the seekers
found nothing? Would this be the God that
(15:19):
ghosted these once faithful servants so badly that they were
pushed out of faith? This is the God you want to be
like, John, you Chirk. The Christianity that I'm
talking about isn't, isn't one that that ignores intellectual
investigation. You know, this is, this is a
Christianity that invites intellectual wrestling.
(15:41):
You know the scriptures tell us to hold to test all things
holding fast to that which is true.
And yet so many people who have done that leave.
Interesting. Not I can't.
I can't explain everything to you about God, but I can explain
an awful lot. And the things that I know don't
(16:03):
seem to comport with the things that these guys say that
they're. Leaving then obviously, John,
you still have something to learn.
So go and talk to these people, ask for a conversation where you
learn, not tell them what they did wrong, Joe.
Oh, I haven't watched very much of that, but I have I I have a
(16:23):
deconversion story of my own. I think it has a lot to do with
the just the story of, say, disappointment with their
experience. When Christianity and God failed
to live up to expectations, it is massively disappointing.
And that's that's a hard thing because a lot of times in church
(16:45):
settings, people don't feel likethey're encouraged to explore
those questions. This whole rewarding faith thing
that tends to be a theme in the whole Bible, it's got a lot to
answer for, hasn't it? People are told you need to
believe XY and Z. They say, OK, I'll, I'll believe
XY and Z. And then something happens and
they start, they, they question XY and Z.
(17:05):
They don't get a satisfactory answer.
And they go, well, if all of my base, if I based everything on
XY and Z and I can't answer thatnow, what's the point?
This is very simplified, but yeah, a lot of people, it starts
that way. They realise Christianity
doesn't work anymore, doesn't work for this or that or
anything else that you promised.So we'll get questioned.
But that's the fault of Christianity, not the
(17:27):
questioner. Yeah, yeah, that's interesting.
I think if, if I could get some of these guys in the room with
me, I would love to ask them. There's two, there's there's
really two questions that I'd love to ask them up front.
Then just some follow-ups. But I'd like to ask them what is
it that you're leaving? I want to know what they're
leaving. And then I'd ask them what's
replacing it. I'm leaving or left controlling
(17:51):
toxic manipulation and I replaced it with nothing because
when you cut a cancer out of a body you don't put anything back
into it. Because nature abhors a vacuum.
Stopping believing in bullshit superstitions does not create a
vacuum. Everybody has a worldview,
whether you believe it or not. World views, everybody has a
(18:15):
worldview. So if you're leaving the
Christian worldview, what world view is is placing it in?
The question of world view replacement is certainly
interesting, and it is a subjectworthy of its own episode or 10.
What is being suggested here is that the rejection of the
Christian God somehow removes anentire world view from the
individual, leaving some sort ofworld view hole that must be
(18:39):
filled. This, of course, is utter
nonsense. Our world views are an
amalgamation of various nested beliefs and social preferences.
Our world views change over time.
Sometimes imperceptible, they shift as a result of life
experiences and social relationships.
They are not rigid, compartmentalized units that get
(19:02):
removed and replaced when we reject a belief we once held.
So when I hear these guys sayingI'm leaving Christianity, I hear
them say I did XY and Z, therefore I was a Christian.
I went to YWAM. I started a small group network.
I was a pastor. I, you know, evangelized at
(19:23):
Newport Beach. I did XY and I used to preach.
I used to do this. Never has there been.
I came to a realization of who Iwas, who God is, and what He's
done for me. John, you're a stinking piece of
shit. This is a classic example of
(19:44):
Christians being disingenuous about those who leave the faith.
And it happens all the fucking time.
It's tedious to hear and this istypical of meanie mouth
Christian apologists blaming thevictims for what went wrong.
John is conveniently forgetting that at the time these former
Christians did those things, they were Christians and they
(20:07):
would all have credited their Christianity for motivating them
to do those things. Also the reason why former
Christians tend not to report ontheir initial conversion or
state that they came to a realisation of needing Christ or
of what Christ did for them. It's because all that is
negative. They don't want to dwell on the
(20:27):
shittiest parts of their indoctrination.
Have some grace, John. Like you, never has there been.
I came to the realization that Iam a a Wretch of a human being
and God bestowed His infinite grace on me, ripped me out of my
mess and into His marvellous light.
(20:48):
Because that is psychological abuse.
I don't report on my initial conversion for that very reason.
It's shitty. And never has anybody.
And I don't know if they know that or if it's not intentional.
I'm not saying it's it's bad. I just say I've never heard that
before. So I'd like that clarification.
What exactly is it that you're leaving?
Because it sounds to me like you're leaving a bunch of works.
(21:09):
We're leaving an abusive, patriarchal, controlling
religious cult. These people are coming out.
They've lived Christian lives. That, they would say, defines
their Christian faith. No, they say the Christian faith
motivated them to live the livesthat they did and.
And now there's these doubts, these intellectual doubts and
(21:31):
stuff that happened and, and they're just never addressed or
they're addressed really, reallypoorly.
When you go to your pastor and you say, hey, can you explain it
to me? Oh, just just believe you need
faith. Yeah, that's a really bad
response and sadly some people get it, Even me.
You know, how can I really know that that the scriptures are
historically reliable? You can't.
(21:53):
There's really good answers. If the answers were really
actually that good, you wouldn'thave so many people leaving.
We've kind of conflated dealt with unbelief or we're told
they're like kind of. This is true, and it is really
nice to hear this acknowledgement that way too
often Christian leaders fail thedoubters.
In those contexts, you're getting seeds planet.
(22:15):
A lot of Christians don't live as though they're in actually in
a war. No.
With entities that are doing battle for your soul.
That's right, apostates. These doubts are not your
intellectual wisdom playing havoc with your ridiculous
beliefs. No, it's the evil eye of Soren
(22:35):
doing battle for your soul. That's right.
You have no control what's goingon.
It's Lord of the Rings, but withghosts.
Yeah. Yeah, that's.
Bad or they do accept that, and their response is to to
hideaway, hide their children away from as many worldly
influences as possible. Oh, the childhood trauma stories
(22:57):
I've seen about certain types ofmusic, certain games, certain TV
programs. That strategy can have negative
effects as well. No shit dude, tell us more about
it. The devil is is prowling around
like a roaring, lying, seeking someone to deserve to devour.
And again with denial of intellectual integrity and
(23:18):
invoking demons. Sometimes we don't live
according to that reality. It's really easy not to, to be
honest with you, because we livein a world that is there's an
unseen realm. They see hypocrisy within the
church. That's because there is.
Or they quest start questioning the reliability of the Bible.
(23:41):
That's because it is questionable.
I would say doubt out loud, doubt out loud.
I agree, do your doubting out loud.
In fact you know what doubts allowed to be a really good name
for a podcast? Why don't you look it up?
So get yourself in a in a tight group of people that you trust
(24:03):
and talk about your concerns. Because know what If you have
the concern, I guarantee you oneof your other friends has the
concern. Sure they might, but as many of
us have found out to our cost, not many people are prepared to
be honest about it. And this is a problem.
He acknowledged earlier that Christians have a problem with
(24:23):
this acknowledgement. They do, and it fuels
deconstruction. These are questions that have
been asked for 2000 years. Then where are the answers that
stop people leaving? And like I said, they're really
good questions, but there's really good answers.
Well, they're obviously not really good if they're not
stopping people leaving. Hey, we have a call.
We've got Richard on line one. Hey, Richard, are you with us?
(24:46):
Well, the call was rubbish and the audio quality was a bit
yeah, so I'm going to skip. It no matter what world view you
hold to, you want to believe what's true, and if it's not
true, I don't want. To believe it, I wholeheartedly
endorse that sentiment. The question is, what
methodology do you use to determine what's true, and how
(25:07):
do you show its reliability? If this what I believe isn't
true, I don't want to believe it.
I don't want to believe it for one more minute.
Great. What are you actually doing to
validate whether or not it is true and which parts might be
almost true and need improving? How do you validate any of it?
That's that's where I would go to.
I think that you you have to establish the truth and and of
(25:30):
who of whose Christ is and greathow?
Tell me how? Because if you think about the
world having a purpose, how, howcan we access what that purpose
is? So God does, just as the enemy
attacks us on both sides, the head and the heart side, God
(25:50):
also restores. Yeah, through both sides.
Anyway, you're not just going tomove on and fail to answer your
own question, are you? That's like that's so good.
One of the major objections thatI think carries with with it
weight that the non believers bring is to to to us is the
hiddenness of God. Yes, God is so hidden he may as
well not exist. And if you find yourself, hey,
(26:11):
if you guys, if you're out thereright now and you find yourself
in this, this place where you'reseverely doubting your faith.
And without addressing the hiddenness either, they roll
into the finale. Hang on, we're going to have
Part 2 shortly. A lot of people are right where
you are, they just might not be talking about it.
Find that that group of people. Find that person, that one 2-3
(26:32):
or four people. The Deep Conversion Anonymous
Facebook group is a really good place to go if you're in the UK.
The UK Xvangelical Facebook group.
But in both cases, don't be a Dick or we'll give you the kick.
Well, I am in studio with. Oh my gosh, two of my my amazing
(26:52):
friends. You guys just met this evening.
But I'm with Chris. You were on last week.
Yes, you were here. Yep, Yep.
Lending to us your incredible mind to talk about all things
art and God and it was so much fun and I don't know if any of
you remember but Chang man, it'sbeen a while I.
(27:13):
Know it's been a while. I think last time was, were we
talking about Kanye? We were talking about Kanye.
We talked. Well, you don't need the 20
minutes of intro bullshit, do you?
Let's get straight back down to the sarcasm bait, shall we?
Hang 5. We're getting there.
(27:34):
Here's Part 2 with John, Chris and Chen.
So hey, what do you guys think you want to talk about tonight?
I mean, I'm just kind of throwing it out there.
We've talked about a couple different things.
Deconversion. Yeah, I mean, that's a big, huge
topic right now, at least in Christendom.
I think so too, right. Yeah.
And so, so when we say deconversion, I just want to
(27:56):
just kind of clarify the issue. Basically somebody who is
otherwise a Christian, they evaluate or re evaluate their
worldview and they start deconstructing it bit by bit.
And at the end of the deconstruction process, however
long it lasts, they went from being a Christian to a either
(28:17):
non Christian or somebody that'sin the progressive Christian
camp. So the progressive Christian
camp would be churches that still call themselves Christian.
Holy shit John, who died and made you the arbitral of who is
a Christian and who isn't Jesus Christ.
They they ultimately form a God in their own image, I think a
(28:37):
lot of times. So it's more complicated than
that. But so that's, I just wanted to
get that definition kind of out of the way.
And yeah, it's pretty crazy. It's affecting people, huh?
It's affecting me and it's affecting.
Yeah, man. And it's affecting me and my
distance as well. Oh no.
You know, like I said, it's a big topic I think in all of our
lives because there's a lot of famous people that are kind of
(28:58):
doing this in the open, in public.
And long may they continue to doso because it shows that they
have integrity and honesty because it costs them dear often
in terms of personal relationships and public
criticism. So long may they continue to do
it because that gives a message to other people that it is OK to
(29:19):
do this because they will also see how they get welcomed by the
deconstruction community. You guys you're.
Awesome. But I've also been experiencing
in my own life, friends, close friends who have told me that
they have entered into this phase of deconstruction, and
some of them come out on the other side pretty much atheist.
(29:42):
I've had sleepless nights, man, to be honest.
Really. Oh yeah.
Yeah, that's not good. You've had sleepless nights.
Holy shit, guy. Did you ask them what it was
like for them about all of theirsleepless nights?
Or of their panic attacks? Or they're terrible moments of
doubt and prayer? The sweating.
You need to talk to those guys. Ask them what it was like for
(30:03):
them. Well, I guess it is good because
you have a heart for these people, right?
I mean. You.
Yeah, No, it's grieving. It is.
It's. Grieving.
For sure. Yeah, you're grieving so much
that you can't even come onto a podcast and tell them they're
great people and give us the details of how hard it is to
deconstruct because you've talked to them.
That's how hard it is for you. You're grieving so much.
You have to come on here and critique the entire process.
(30:25):
Yeah, grieving. You know, actually Chang, if you
remember, if you remember like 17 years ago when we did the
show together, but we we talked about Joshua Harris.
Do you remember doing that show?He wrote the.
I kissed dating goodbye I. Kissed dating goodbye and I
remember when that book came outI wasn't no about.
It no guys were no guys were we all hated.
(30:45):
Get this out of my face and. Oh, come on.
Do you expect me to believe thatyou were all for that book?
Come on, let's be honest. He ended up deconstructing,
deconverting and his is a sad story, I think, because I think
his marriage ended in divorce and so something was going on
behind the scenes. And I actually remember as we
were doing that show, I rememberthinking that, well, I wonder
(31:08):
what this guy, what's in honestly, what's in this guy has
in his life that is causing him to run from Christ in such an
extreme manner? Wow, just wow.
You actually went there John, you shit eating cock crumble.
Fucking hell. When we navigate the world
around us, we bump into reality.For example, when I was an
(31:29):
atheist, right, I would try to live according to my atheism.
But it it was, it became impossible because I started
bumping into things first. I started bumping into the
existence of stuff, stuff all around me.
There's, there's stuff everywhere.
Where to come from, how to get here.
My atheism couldn't explain that.
Huh, sounds like someone failed in science.
(31:49):
Man bumps knee against table andgoes ow there must be a God.
And but the a major one for me was the bump of, I call it the
bump of Ouch. It's the it's a bump into a
moral realism. And so there is a morality that
undergirds everything in in life.
Morality is a social construct, yes, and social constructs do
(32:11):
tend to have a habit of undergirding our behaviour as
part of a society. Right.
And we have consciences given tous by the Holy Spirit.
Yeah, you're going to have to demonstrate the Holy Spirit to
exist, because consciousness is an emergent property from the
behaviour of the brain. And when we violate that
conscience, every single person feels guilty.
(32:31):
Social conditioning a very fortunate feature of evolution
because that enables us to have a functioning society.
And oftentimes I find that when people often times, sometimes,
how about that? Sometimes they'll soften it.
Sometimes when people leave their faith, one of my first
thoughts I think is I wonder what sin this person has in
their life that's causing them to run from Jesus.
(32:53):
Oh, do fuck off. Seriously, this is where you're
going to go with that again, Jimmy Swaggart.
Let's talk about Jimmy Swaggart and all those other sinful
Christians that Christians like to cover up for and embrace.
Hey, talk to me about sin helping up all those people,
yeah, fucking hypocrite. Because you can't live in that
(33:15):
tension forever. Thousands of pastors managed it.
So you have to eventually make achoice.
Am I gonna hold on to my sin? Yeah, I'm bored of this holier
than now card. I'm going to skip on to the
next. Bit not every instance like
that, these decon, these deconstruction, these
deconversion guys. John Steingard.
He was the lead singer of Hawk Nelson.
Andrew and I had a fantastic conversation back in November
(33:38):
2020 with John Steingart. See episode 40 link #5 in the
show notes. It's interesting when I listen
to these guys talk, there's justquestions that I'd like to ask
them and they're just not being asked of them.
Like what is the gospel? That's because now that they're
out, they see the gospel messageslightly differently.
Listen to that. You know what?
(33:59):
What did Jesus save you from? The bad shit he was going to do
if you dared to say I don't knowthat you exist.
I don't want to be that voice that's they were never Christian
in the first place. Then don't say it.
Don't think it. Don't even hint it.
Stop. Don't do it.
And that might be what I believe.
Yeah, maybe don't say that either, douche.
(34:20):
The sovereignty of God and how He elects is His people is God's
business. So God unelected these people.
It was never a choice for these people to leave.
God pushed them out because he no longer chose them.
Is that what you're saying? I'm fine with that.
I'm comfortable with that. You're fine and comfortable with
your God deciding to unelect people and therefore condemn
(34:43):
them to eternal conscious torment.
You're really fine with that. You really want to worship that
God. You think that God is loving?
Really. I hear these people's stories.
It was never like I was broken. I needed somebody to repair me.
That's because those who leave recognize that message as a
(35:03):
truly wicked, toxic, harmful, poisonous message.
So they reject it and they don'tacknowledge it.
With every story that I've heardis there is something that
creeps into their idea of the Word of God, that that begins to
lessen the authority of scripture, that begins to make
(35:24):
the Word of God less authoritative.
Yes, it's called learning that the gospel, the New Testament,
the Bible was written by people,not supernaturally.
Less inerrant and more of a fluid concept, and every single
story I've heard begins with thequestioning of the authority of
(35:47):
scripture. And so they should, because
Scripture does not have the authority that you think it
does. My relationship with God is
robust. It's very, very real.
My like, I I, I feel like I knowJesus, like I know my wife.
Dear, not only is that weird, it's not possible, but OK.
(36:07):
I I wish that they could just know the God that that I know.
Then next time you're having oneof these intimate conversations
with Jesus, ask him why he's nothaving that conversation with
them. So just to him that maybe he
could reveal himself to those people the way he reveals
himself to you. Because it's not their fault.
He's holding back, it's his fault, it's Jesus fault, it's
(36:29):
God's fault. Tell them to buck up.
They reject God based on the existence of evil, the existence
of suffering, and then the existence of hell.
That's because they recognise that when it comes to the
parental analogy of God to his people, they recognise that
they're actually better than God.
That's a tough lesson to learn, but it's also liberating, and
(36:52):
that's why that happens. I feel strongly that the whole
point of deconstruction is really the ancient lie.
Hath God really said? Not a lie.
God hath really not said that. Is can you really trust what the
scriptures say? No, you can't.
Can you really believe that Jonah was swallowed by a big
(37:17):
fish? No, Nope.
Nope, definitely not. I have yet to hear of anybody
that comes out on the other sideof deconversion or
deconstruction or whatever you want to call it, with a solid,
grounded, biblical, robust faith.
That's because what you define as a robust biblical faith is
(37:38):
literalism, is inerrancy. And that is bullshit, that is
toxic, that's militative, that is controlling, and that is bad
for everybody. That's why, because they are
actually deconstructing that, because it is the worst part of
Christianity you could possibly.Have they come kind of go into
it with their minds made-up, almost looking for excuses?
(38:01):
No, that's not it, you judge. Mental prick.
I don't want to put that into every single situation, but I
can honestly say that there there's a reason why.
Yeah, your brand of fundamental toxic Christianity doesn't work.
It's bad for their mental healthso they have to get out for
their own sanity. Well, we also know it's
(38:22):
spiritual, right? Sorry, what?
So there's a spiritual battle raging, right?
Ephesians 6. We can expect people to fall
away in the last days. People are falling away when we
say last days, we may in these days, right?
The last days are are everythingpost resurrection.
OK, so God is letting people fall away because it fulfills a
(38:42):
prophecy and it's somehow the people's fault for
deconstructing? Yeah, making make sense, dude
and. We also know that the that we're
not responsible for people's salvation.
I can't save anything. I can't resurrect anything, but
God can't. Then why doesn't he when those
very people pray and beg on their knees for that?
(39:03):
It's easy to cast upon somebody that we don't know.
Ah, yeah. Maybe they just weren't safe.
That's a good point. You know what?
I. Mean.
And that's you being really, really shitty.
But then when it's like your tribe and you're like, dude, I
know this guy and I know he's, I've, I've, he was taught the
same way I was taught and he believes the same things I will.
There's in ways in which this guy is a better Christian than I
(39:27):
was. You know what I mean?
And to see these guys give up ontheir faith, that's when it's
like, holy moly, this is a real issue.
You know this is a real thing. So what you're going to do about
it? Is it going to change your
outlook? Is it going to change your
perspective? Is it going to change how you
relate to these people? How are you going to sit down
with your friend and learn? How do you respond to them?
(39:49):
Different ones like I've got a buddy who's flirting with the
process and I'm literally just texting him and talking with him
and just saying and basically just like flee.
Flee from the wrath to come. I'm I'm basically just kind of
like pleading with him like, heyman, dig in.
If you've got issues with the authenticity of scripture, if
(40:10):
you've got issues with the Canon, if you've got issues with
all of these scriptural ideas and how it came to be and, and
in the in the councils and all that stuff, dig into it.
It's there and the arguments arethere, and the reasoning is
there and the and the the reasonto fall on the side of yes, this
(40:33):
is true and authoritative is there, the arguments are there.
And yet many thousands every year fail to be convinced.
Always answers prayers. Sometimes he says no.
I always, I sell this to my kidsand I'll say, well, God always
answers you. He says one of three things.
Yes, Maybe no. And those doubters who begged on
their knees for God to help themto believe again, what answer
(40:55):
did he give them? And you're still blaming the
deconstructor and saying it's their fault.
That there's no excuse. There's no valid excuse.
The scripture says that you knowunbelievers are without.
Excuse yeah, you're just a pieceof shit.
You literally just said God did it and you're blaming the person
who had to leave. Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you
(41:19):
and. I think Romans one talks about
it is a spiritual they're suppressing the truth in
unrighteous. Right.
No, God let them down, failed toanswer their prayer and said he
didn't want them. People without the Holy Spirit
are wired to reject truth. I do wish you'd make your mind
up to a bucket. Is it our fault or is it God's
(41:41):
fault for making us this way andrejecting us?
Choose your side. I was thinking about the four
soils, actually. Yeah.
And Jesus talked about. The parable of the four soils
does not help your case. All that affirms is God made
everybody that way and it's his fault shitting hell.
(42:05):
That's the importance of gettinginvolved in a local body.
Yeah, that's a, that's an important thing to get sewn in,
to get grafted in to a local body of, of, of solid believers.
You know where the Bible is preached, where the word is
exposited. Yes, do that because that is how
a cult is formed. God.
(42:27):
I, I, I read a quote online by Douglas Grutais, who is, I think
he teaches at Denver Seminary. Like he's just brilliant.
I love his books. And he literally wrote the
textbook on Christian apologetics.
It's called Christian Apologetics and by him and he,
he wrote literally I think todayhe wrote in like a meme thing.
I deconstruct and reconstruct myfaith every single day.
(42:49):
Yeah, well, if you can manage todo that inside of a single day,
you're not doing it right now. I was unable to find the quote
in question, but if I have foundthe right person, I also found
this quote. At the heart of the
deconstruction explosion is a rejection of biblical authority.
Deconstruction emphasises personal autonomy, the authority
(43:11):
of the self. Now, second-half of that I take
issue with, and I think this guyis part of the team of people
that blames the deconstructor for what happens.
Yeah, he's a shit. Deconstruct for reconstruction,
not deconstruct for deconstruction.
Only if it's worth reconstructing afterwards.
(43:33):
And Christianity ain't that. Go go read Mike Lacona, Gary
Habermas, Linda Mcgrew, read these people.
Those are Christians. Yeah, because people who already
believe this shit are really thebest people to listen to.
Fucking hell, all of those people he named, Mcgrew, Lacona,
and especially Habermas are really shitty people at the
(43:57):
historicity of the New Testament.
And that's all we got for you tonight, guys.
And good day to you too, dear listener.
If you are having issues with your doubts and you're not
already part of the deconstruction community, go
onto Facebook and search for Deconstruction Anonymous.
It is without a doubt the best place where you can land to talk
(44:18):
about your face doubts. Until next time, I'm Matthew and
this is. You have been listening to a
podcast from Reason Press. Do you have any thoughts on what
you've just heard? Do you have a topic that you
(44:39):
would like us to cover? Please send all feedback to
reasonpress@gmail.com. You might even appear on an
episode. Our theme music was written for
us by Holly. To hear more of her music, see
the links in our show notes.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January of 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. My Favorite Murder is part of the Exactly Right podcast network that provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics including historic true crime, comedic interviews and news, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.