Episode 132 - How to Kill God the easy Way - Still Unbelievable!

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Episode 132 How to Kill God the Easy Way.
This is Matthew, and in this episode of So Unbelievable I
chat with Alan Bondar about his provocatively titled book, How
to Kill God the Easy Way. I enjoyed this book.
It says a lot of things that I too would say.
I recommend it to anyone who is seeking to engage with a

(00:23):
critical review of Christian apologetics.
If you have any sympathies for Christianity and its proponents,
then this book will challenge those thoughts.
If you have doubts about Christianity, then this book
will help you focus your thoughts and put words to those
doubts. Alan and I have great fun in
this discussion. We clearly think in similar ways

(00:46):
and that comes across. I hope you enjoy listening to
this episode as much as we did recording it.
Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of Still
Unbelievable and another interview and another book to
discuss. Now, this time it isn't the book
that I've been plugging, Apostate Stories of
deconversion, the book that I contribute to, the Chapter 2,

(01:07):
the book that I am going to continue plugging as much as I
can get away with this year. Although there are some more
author interviews related to that book coming up in the
coming months. So please stay tuned to Still
Unbelievable. I will plug that book at every
single opportunity. That is a guarantee.
If you haven't bought it, pleasego and find the episode where I
plug the book and buy the book. But this book, I've got a guest

(01:31):
here, Alan Bondar. Alan has written a very testily
titled book, How to Kill God theEasy Way.
I will be honest, I took an intake of breath when I saw the
title of that book. I have read the book.
I am very glad to have Alan on here.
I am very glad I read the book. I have lots of comments or
questions rather for Alan about the book.

(01:52):
So, Alan, thank you for coming on so unbelievable.
And before we get going, why would you even want to kill God?
Well, because God is an idea that is put into people's minds.
And when you believe something that doesn't actually exist,

(02:13):
thinking that it exists at a level where you're beyond the
imagination of a child, but living your life as though this
being is real and basing your entire life upon a book that you
believe he wrote, which he didn't, but is an ancient book
of rules that have no bearing onour lives whatsoever.

(02:35):
It's a very dangerous way to live and it and it robs you of a
full life. And so my, what I wanted to do
was help people to escape that mind virus that keeps them
trapped, living by an ancient book so that they can be free
and live the life that in a lot of ways, I believe most
Christians wish they could live,but they feel trapped and think

(02:57):
they can't. I, being a former Christian, can
actually testify to that. You live in bondage in, in a lot
of ways you don't think you do because as a Christian, you
continue to make excuses. Oh, this is the best way to
live. This is God's way.
And you, you just, you just continue to suppress all of
these desires that you actually have.
And you call them sin. If it's not sin, if it's just a

(03:20):
choice and you get to live it and you get to experience life
and, and there's no consequencesfor it, then why are we doing
that? Right?
So, so I wanted to help free people from that brainwashing,
that mind virus to keep them tracked and thinking that
they're in some sort of a sin bondage that some God's going to
judge them for. It's all in the minds.
And if you can get rid of that, then you can live free.

(03:42):
And that's that's the reason I wrote it.
Thank you, Alan, I, I like that answer and that I, I engaged
with that, that answer because from my own personal experience,
it was something that genuinely took me by surprise that I
remember because the process of deconversion for me, and you're
probably echo this and I know loads of people echo this wasn't

(04:04):
a moment of rejection. It was many years reading
leading up to many years of questioning and, and many years
often of pain and tears leading up to a moment of realisation.
And it's that moment of realisation was quite
revolutionary for me because I had an experience that I never
predicted and never expected. I was walking down the street,

(04:25):
I'd been shopping in town and I'd been going through all these
things to my mind and I'd realised by then that atheism
was most likely my end destination.
And I was walking home and I just said to myself, Matthew,
just admit it, you're atheist. And it was the first time I'd
used that word positively to describe myself.

(04:47):
And it literally was that feeling of a weight lifting off
my shoulders and feeling that you're walking two inches
taller. And it was really, really weird.
I really didn't expect it. And that sense of relief brought
with it a happiness and a light headedness that, like I said, 15

(05:09):
years later, I still remember that moment because it was quite
something. And I remember it so more
clearly than I ever remembered my original conversion
experience. And I remember somebody asking
me about that moment when I was telling him he would.
He was a Christian iopastor at the time, actually still is a
pastor. And we were were talking about

(05:31):
that and I talked about that moment that I realised I could
call myself atheist and not fearit.
And he said, well, how did that feel for you?
And I said it was like a weight lifted off my shoulders.
And there was this kind of look on his face that was horror
stroke surprise. Like he genuinely didn't expect
me to give that answer because that is an answer that

(05:51):
Christians often use about theiroriginal conversion.
Yes, it is, you're right. And it is quite fascinating.
I would agree. I although for me, I, I was
raised into it from from birth, you know, so I, I can't speak
too much about this weight beinglifted.
Although I can say that when I was finally in my book, I

(06:12):
discussed my trifecta conversion, if you will, where
it started out once when I was real young with my sister
teaching me the gospel. And then, you know, being at a
service where I went forward andand, you know, accepted Christ
again. But my understanding of the
gospel was insufficient at that church because, you know, my
pastor didn't think, my uncle pastor didn't think that my

(06:35):
explanation of the gospel is correct.
And then finally the Steve Greenconcert, you know, where I, you
know, finally gave my life to the Lord again, you know,
whatever. Anyway, supposedly that time
took so, so in the sense I remember that portion where it
was like, finally I can get baptized and go to heaven,
right? And that was such a relief for
me because when you're when you're raised, at least the way

(06:55):
I was raised in the belief system of a rapture where at any
that's God's going to Christ is going to come back and the
church is going to disappear. And if you're left behind, then
that's the worst thing ever, right?
And so I remember having episodes of my life where I
would be in great fear because Ithought I was left behind.
And I discussed some of those episodes in my book, at least
one in particular that was pretty traumatic for me.

(07:17):
So, so that was a big deal. So I do remember at least that,
that like that, that that sense of relief.
Oh my goodness, finally, I'm, I'm in and I won't be left
behind if this happens. It was a, that was a very
traumatic moment for me, a very important moment for me.
So I know what you're talking about in that regard.
I'm sure there's others. As they get older and they come
to the conversion, it becomes even more so because they, they,

(07:39):
they have this idea that, Oh my goodness, what if I'd have died,
you know, 16 years earlier? What would I have done?
Oh my goodness, right. So, so it becomes this relief.
But but yeah, it's, it's, it's strange because it's a, it is a
mind virus that makes you think you need that when you don't.
And then when you finally escapeand you're like, what was I
doing with all this time? That the freedom of release is a

(08:02):
little different than the freedom of relief from fear.
They're slightly different. The, the, the, the feeling you
get when you're a Christian, when you, when you convert to
Christianity is finally this, this thing I've been afraid of.
I'm, I'm good now I'm going to go to heaven, right?
You get this kind of relief. Whereas when you get to atheism

(08:23):
and you finally escape that, that brainwashing that makes you
think you need all of this Jesusstuff to get to heaven to escape
the, the, the penalty of your sins.
And whatever that may be in yourparticular theology, whether
it's hell or just separation from God of some sort.
Coming back in the eighth cominginto atheism, you're, it's, it's
more of a relief of freedom. It's like, ha, I don't have to

(08:46):
live like that anymore. I don't have to live.
And then the irony is when you become a Christian, you think
you're escaping the fear you hadthat you're now are saved from
it. When in fact you actually
continue to live in that fear your entire life, that if you,
if you ever get out, if you everleave Jesus, you're going to die
forever. And so that fear keeps you
there. It keeps you there, there, it

(09:07):
keeps you there and you, you cannever get out.
And when you, when you find a way to just turn that off, which
it's almost impossible, it's like it's mind blowing that I
got out. It's mind blowing that you got
out. It isn't, it is crazy, but, and
that's why I wrote the book to help people find the journey
that we did. But when you get out, it's not,
it's, it's, it's a release of that fear.
It's like, holy smokes, I'm three.

(09:30):
I don't, I'm not afraid anymore of this God, this punishment,
this eternal death. I just, I can just live my life
and that's it. And it's just wonderful.
And I and I apologize for you talking to that.
That resonated with me what you said for sure.
Yes, and thank you for that. So let's learn a little bit more
about you before we get into some of the detail of the book.

(09:51):
So you were brought up in a in aChristian home and I was brought
up in a missionary environment. And it seems like you had a a
very fundamentalist style upbringing because you talked
about the Rapture. Presumably that meant you were
exposed to the film like a Thiefin the night, I believe it's
called. Very much.

(10:12):
Yeah, I think I, if I ever saw that film, I have no memory of
it, but I hear a lot about it from people of the similar age
to me and none of it good. I'm assuming then there must
have been some kind of young earth creationism or that kind
of fundamentalist, the Bible is all true and literally true kind

(10:32):
of vibe going on because that seems to be a very common theme
that I'm, I, I find that it's the, the more oppressive, the
Christianity of our youth, the more enthusiastic believer as an
adult. Is that something you would
agree with? Yeah, I do think so.
I think that's a very good observation, Matthew.

(10:52):
And, and and almost another way of saying that is the more fear
instilled in you as a youth, themore passionate you are to avoid
that fear. Yeah.
So you pour more into your and. To point it out, yeah.
Yeah. Oh yeah, points out.
When you get to our age, yes. Yeah, yeah.
I've talked to people who even at a young age, they found, they

(11:16):
report finding the whole health thing really problematic.
And in a recent conversation with somebody where we talked
about that, he said even before he was a teenager, he still
found, he found he was finding hell problematic.
And I have no memory of that. I always remember accepting hell
as the thing that God did because he was holy.
Do you have any thoughts on that?

(11:38):
Well, certainly I would. I would say that as as my
theology develops, I came to a grasp similar to that, that hell
is necessary because God's holy,right?
So, so he must, he must judge anything that is unholy, right?
And so and Christ, because then Christ makes us holy and God
doesn't have to judge those who are in Christ, but the rest must

(12:00):
be judged in that, you know, holiness demands that like that
sure. That was a much, much later
development in my theology, although I will say that even in
later years in Christianity, I abandoned the, the concept of
hell all together, that that waswhere I even escaped
Christianity before I was an atheist.
I had already abandoned hell because that I, I, I discovered

(12:20):
that wasn't even taught in the Bible, like the translation,
terrible translation. So somehow somewhere that became
a a mainstream view of Christianity and everybody's
kind of bought into it. But it's nowhere taught in the
Bible, which is so hot. How did we buy this idea of
hell? It's just not even there.
But translation bias has kind ofdone that.
But but back to your question a little bit, when I was younger,

(12:43):
I suppose I didn't have such a strong theology and
understanding of hell in either version of the ones that I grew
up that that I later developed. But but it was more just if you
don't believe God's going to send you to this horrible place
where you suffer and burn forever and fire and brimstone
burn through your veins and you're, you're always on fire
and you're always hurting. And so like, it's like, So what

(13:06):
do you want? You want to go to hell with this
fire and brimstone burn. You want this loving God named
Jesus, and no matter how much ofA tyrant this God was, I'm like,
I'll take God. Like who wants that?
Like for the kids, Jesus Christ,it doesn't take much to scare
the crap out of you to make you avoid that at all costs.
I mean, who wants like, I touched my finger on the stove
once, you know, and that burns so bad.

(13:27):
I never wanted that again. So like probably that's going to
happen in my veins forever and ever.
I'm like, no, thank you, I'll take God, whoever he is.
You know what I mean? So, so the decision was never
between something great that I actually desired and something
that I hated. It was something I hated and
something I hated less. That's what it was.
Penalty, you know, 'cause, 'cause he sort of asked me, you

(13:48):
know, choose between reincarnation and hell.
I'd be like, reincarnation sounds wonderful, you know what
I mean? But that wasn't the option.
It was either God who is like, you know, you don't really care
about, but you know he's better than this.
Option. Yeah, yeah.
It's like the choice between burnt at the stake of firing
squad. Well, I know which one I like
the least. Yeah, exactly.

(14:12):
So, So as far as you can, because I remember as a growing
up and as a child, because I think it's the price of being
indoctrinated into fundamentalism.
As a young child, I was all in. From a very young age and all
the way through my teens I was all in on Christianity and into
a young adult I was all in on Christianity.
Was that pretty much the same for you?

(14:33):
100% I mean, bro, I can tell youI with all these, you know,
messages I'm sending and talkingabout how my fear of you know,
hell was worse than my desire tolove God whatever, but I still I
stole somewhere along the line developed this intense passion
for God's word. I don't know why the Bible just
be and maybe it's because it wasinstilled in me that this is the

(14:57):
most important thing I can ever do with my life.
And because I trust in my parents, which children do,
that's what you're supposed to do.
And because build this, you know, this thought in me, which
I call brainwashing. They just pushed it and pushed
it and pushed and pushed and allI ever knew was God, God, God,
God, God, the Bible, Bible, Bible, you just you, you, you're
like, well, I guess this is my life.

(15:18):
So I can either be become passionate about it or I can be
miserable. So I chose to be passionate
about it and I chased it with every ounce of my being.
And I just got so inundated in God and His word, you could
never shake me, man. It was just like, that was the
most important thing in my life.So yeah, 100%, I just, I went
with it like a whirlwind, man. I was in 100%.

(15:40):
So then you ended up as a pastor.
Do I remember right? So at at what point did you
decide that that's what you wanted to do?
So when I was a teenager in youth ministry, I was nearing
the end of my teenage years, butI was still in youth ministry
and I had gone through several youth pastors.

(16:02):
And I have always been so appreciative of the youth
pastors that I had. They some are better than
others, but overall, I had really good experiences.
And I remember that the way theywould teach inspired me even
more to love God's Word, you know, and I always had a gift of
speaking. Like I could just talk like

(16:24):
nobody else, you know, I just, Idon't know if you call that a
gift or a curse, but I just talk, you know, I and I love
getting in front. The bigger the crowd, the
better. I just, I don't know what it was
about me. I just love being in front of a
public audience. Some people would rather kill
themselves in that, you know, and I get that, but me goodness,
give me the greatest, you know. And so combining that with the
passion I have for the Bible andthe youth pastor, I remember

(16:47):
from pretty young on in my teenage years being like, I want
to grow up to be a youth pastor because I can think of nothing
better to do with my life than to teach teenagers to love God's
word. Like, and that's where I was.
And I really believe that if I could just, if I could just get
teenagers to be passionate aboutGod in his word, I could change

(17:10):
the world like that was that wasmy view.
That's where I was. Yeah, 100%.
I've I did youth work, teenage youth work for about 15 years.
And yeah, I loved it. It's very rewarding.
Some great relationships. Some of those teenagers are
adult friends now, they've got their own children.

(17:30):
And I did. I really, really enjoyed it.
It massively rewarding. Yeah, it was.
It was very rewarding for me. And what's funny, and I'll tell
you something humorous here is now that I'm an atheist, right?
And I make these posts on my Facebook wall.
Now I've got my teenagers that Itaught how to respond to

(17:51):
atheists. They're using all the stuff that
I talked up again against me andmy excellent actually.
Brilliant teenagers. It's such a pain in the butt,
they really are. They will come back to haunt
you, I tell you. That, Oh my, my, my daughter's

(18:13):
now 20. So we, we've gone through the,
the teenage years and I, I've said this before and I, I, I do
love saying it. I, I brought her up to answer me
back. I mean, that wasn't a conscious,
that, that wasn't a conscious strategy.
The, the strategy was somebody who feels free to have

(18:34):
conversations with me about anything in a way that I didn't
feel free with my parents. So that was my motivation.
That was my strategy. But the the kicker in that
strategy is having those conversations and freedom to
have those conversations means they're going to answer back.
And it means if you've bollocks up, if you've done something to

(18:56):
embarrass them, if you've done something to upset them or their
friends, they'll tell you and they won't be kind about it,
right? Right.
So God bless you, darling, if you ever listen to this, I do
love you, Yeah. And there we go, cut cake.

(19:17):
Yes, yes, absolutely at the end of Andy.
Taylor right here. Yes, that's right.
Yeah. And so, but it means I've got a
healthy relationship with my a grown up Dawn.
She's 20. I guess she is a grown up.
And that's what I want, frankly.Yeah.

(19:37):
Yeah. But it wasn't, it's not been the
easy path. And I've learned a lot along the
way. And I'm glad I was in my 40s
when she was a teenager and not in my 30s because I I was a
better parent for it. Right on.
But that that, that's a different story for a different
podcast. So you became a pastor.
How long were you a pastor, Alan, before cracks started to

(20:01):
show? Oh boy, how long was that
pastor? I would say about 20 years as a
pastor, 10:00-ish as a youth pastor, Right?
And then no, I guess. The promotion.
That's been like 20-3 years because it would have been 13
years as, as a lead pastor, as apastor in your pastor, so to

(20:24):
speak. So 10 years with Lift Church.
And then I had three years before that where we were just
kind of trying to figure things out and bouncing between names
or whatever. So I'd say about 20-3 years
youth pastor, slash pastor. And then on top of that, there
was about a two year transition period before I hit atheism.
So I, I left being a pastor. My church was shut down.

(20:46):
I was no longer pastoring. And then and then bam, I became
an atheist. So that's that's the real quick
summary version before we get on.
To the the book then and your motivations right now.
What were the cracks for you? What was it that first got you
stepping out? That's a it's.
Such a great question. And that that is that question

(21:09):
is sort of what drove me to end up writing my book, because Jen
Fishburne first asked me that inmy interview with her.
And she was the first person that I had come out of the
closet with, so to speak, as an atheist.
And she asked me a very similar question.
What was it that, you know, madeyou become an atheist or leave
Christianity? And I remember scratching my
head in that question because I don't know why I didn't think of
it. Here we are doing an interview

(21:30):
as an atheist. But for some reason, that
question wasn't so pervasive to me until she asked it just like
that. And I thought, I don't know
what, why? Why was this so easy?
It was like I had been a pastor pretty much my whole adult life.
As a teenager. I always loved God from a
childhood. I was leading my family in
devotions. Everything I did my entire life

(21:51):
was about God, God, God. That's all I wanted in life.
Understanding the Bible. I wrote two books, two books,
you know, biblically driven, allabout the interpretation of
Scripture. Just passionate, passionate
passion. All I ever cared about was
living for the Lord. And then one day it was just
like, it was like quite literally this simple.

(22:12):
Instantly I was just like, and, and, and the moment the final
straw. So I can easily tell you the
final straw. And then I will go back and
answer your question. The final straw was prayer.
I remember walking around because I used to do prayer
walks trying to get my, because this was after my divorce, after
I lost my church, after everything.
I was, I was a complete mess, right?

(22:34):
And I had been going through therapy for about two years and,
and I was recovering and he, I was in a much better place by
this point. I was much stronger in my head.
I was much more solid emotionally.
And I was still doing prayer walks and just trying to refind
God, if you will, just trying toreconnect.
And I would pray, pray, pray. And I would do this prayer

(22:55):
walks. And one day I was on this prayer
walk and I just stopped mid sentence.
I don't even remember what I waspraying, but I stopped mid
sentence And I said, what am I doing and who, who am I talking
to? There's nobody there.
I'm talking to the air because Ijust, there was no connection
anymore. It was just gone.
And, and it was that very momentthat I just said and, and, and,
and quite literally, Matthew, quite literally, much like you

(23:17):
had to do when you said you had to express it verbally.
It was in that moment that I said, I'm an atheist.
It was weird. Like there was nobody there for
me in that moment. It was just me and my, my
verbalization to God through prayer or whatever, you know,
and, and I just, that was it. That was the cut off moment for

(23:38):
me. And I just quite literally
became an atheist in that moment.
But I had to verbalize it. I had to actually say out loud,
I'm an atheist or I would have continued to be stuck in that
trap. But I had to actually just
realize and come to the recognition of what I actually
believe now, you know, because prior to that moment, I really
believed God existed. And now in this moment, I've
realized I no longer believed. So I had to, I had to say it out

(23:59):
loud. So I heard it for myself that
this is my new status and this is what I'm going to do with my
life. So that was that was an absolute
incredible moment for me. So that was the final straw.
It was prayer. But I will honestly say it's
through my evaluation and, and again, I deal a lot of with of
this with my book started years before that.
I just didn't know it started years before that.
Every single time I would journey forward in understanding

(24:23):
something better about life and even understanding the Bible
better, if you will, there was alayer of brainwashing that was
being removed. First thing was escaping the
mainstream Christian view of hell, for example, that went
away. And then there's the pre
millennial view of the coming ofChrist and that one.

(24:43):
Then there's, you know, post millennialism come in that you
know, God's coming. You know, this is the golden
age. And so that whole instantaneous
imminent thing disappeared. And then there's there was
partial preterism and then therewas full preterism, and then
there was covenant creation. And you know, one step at a
time. All of these boom brain why?

(25:04):
And then a friend of mine talking to me about the
mythologies that the Bible was built on and how it's so similar
with all these stories, another layer.
But none of them were enough by themselves to just wake me up.
But over a course of many, many years, without me even
realizing, but just studying andcontinuing to listen and learn

(25:24):
as layers of brainwashing peeledaway, it turns out that layer of
frame washing called prayer was the final one and it was gone.
And I think that's the way it works for everybody.
I just don't think most of us realize as Christians that
that's the way it works. Most, most ex Christians or
atheists and ex Christians, mostex Christians don't ever take

(25:47):
the time to think about why theyescaped.
But it's usually not just one pill.
It's usually a series of layers over the course of many years
for those of us who are willing to continue to learn, continue
to grow, continue to study, and continue to peel layers because
we're not. We're just never satisfied
because we can always see something's not right and we

(26:09):
can't quit until we know what isright.
And that's what gets us to wherewe are today.
Matthew. And I think it was probably the
same for you, but I will let youtalk now and express.
Well, dear listeners, reminder we are talking to Alan about his
book How to Kill God the Easy Way and you mentioned a few
moments ago about an interview with Jen Fishbourne.

(26:30):
I think it is. I will look up that YouTube
video. Check the show notes.
You know by now if you're a regular Mr. I always have links
in my show notes about things that are in the conversation.
So linked to the book we're talking about, linked to Alan's
other books are in the show notes and other YouTube content
and interviews that Alan mentions along this
conversation. I'll find there'll be the show

(26:51):
notes. So please check the show notes
and maybe if you're lucky, there'll also be a link to buy
apostate stories of deconverging.
You know, that book that I wrotein chapter 2?
Show notes, ladies and gentlemen, my wonderful
listeners, they're always information there.
There is a gold miner stuff there.
So Alan, I spent the last two weeks reading.
I'm a slow reader and your book at over 400 pages meant that it

(27:15):
took me a little bit more effortthan some books that I've had to
read. And wow, what a slog your book
was. And I don't mean that
pejoratively. You you hit it with a really
bold title and you cover an awful lot of ground in your
book. And while your language is
gentle, your tone is very firm. And I, and I, and I felt that

(27:40):
reading the book, and certainly if I still had sympathies for
Christianity, honestly, I'd havehad a difficult time reading
your book. And that's how I suspect that
any Christian will have a challenging time reading the
book. And now that again, that's not a
criticism. The thing that edged me out and

(28:00):
to investigate more and got me on that treadmill out of
Christianity was having really tough conversations about
evolution, conversations that hurt me cognitively.
So that isn't a bad thing, but it does mean that some people
won't cope. So the way I want to get into
talking about your book first isso the first thing I want to

(28:21):
know is why did you choose to write the book the way that is
to cover so much subject material and to write it in the
tone that you wrote it as far? As content, I really felt like I
wanted the book to be exhaustive.
Yeah. Because the one thing I didn't
want is for someone to say, aha,he didn't deal with this.

(28:44):
I knew he could do that, yeah. Because not mentioning one thing
is the obvious fatal fluoride orthe things that you do mention.
Exactly right in that mentality.So, so before I released it, I
was like, I, I really was committed to being as exhaustive
as possible. I can tell you, Matthew, I

(29:05):
listened to more debates than anybody should ever have to
endure in a lifetime. I listened to any and every
podcast I could possibly find. I found new authors, read books,
did anything. I, I just, I wanted to know
every argument any Christian hasever presented against atheism.
I just, I wanted to include it in the book.

(29:26):
That was super important to me because I, I just like I said, I
didn't want them getting to the end of them and be like, well,
this was just not worth it because he didn't cover my
issue. Ironically, I still have
Christians that have read it andsay, Oh, it was just a straw
man. You didn't deal with my issue.
And I'm just like, I mean, there's just no winning.
And you know, Boston, it's stillapparently a strong man to some

(29:49):
Christians. So I think it's just it comes
down to the fact that Christiansdon't want to let go of their
belief and they will find any excuse to hold on to it.
And I understand that I do because as a Christian, until
the brain until all the layers were gone, I would have done the
same thing. So I do understand that my goal
in writing the book, the way I wrote it and the way the reason

(30:09):
it took so many pages and why it's as as exhaustive and it
over 400 pages is because when you're when you're removing
layers of brainwashing, you can't do it in 50 pages.
It's just not the way it works. Just presenting a solid
arguments that destroys a position doesn't work.

(30:32):
And I can tell you it doesn't work because I've seen plenty of
debates where I've seen cogent arguments on both sides of the
issue where somebody would absolutely and utterly destroy
another position. But that person on the other
side still holds their ground, still walks away believing what
they believe. And I'm just like, how do you
still think the way you do afterthat person just utterly
destroyed logically your position?

(30:54):
So I realized that people don't get logicized into Christianity.
They're not going to get logicized out of it.
No, you're right. I'm not going to.
Be able to convince them just byby making all the grand
arguments again. And there's a lot of really good
atheist books that will destroy all of the logical arguments of
Christianity or ideological arguments, I should say.

(31:15):
But the all the attempt of arguments.
But that's not going to make a believer become an unbeliever.
And they're not going to change their mind by that.
That's all it's going to do is take them off.
So my goal was to take them through piece by piece and say,
hey, what about this view that you love?
What about this view that's so great?
And I, and I paint the view and then I show why it's flawed and
I take it away from them and I take it away from them and I

(31:39):
take it away from them one step at a time for 400 pages.
And I repeat, and I repeat and Irepeat.
That's the way you have to undo brainwashing.
Otherwise you'll never, you'll never get through.
So that was my goal in the book.I was firm because I needed to
show them that I'm not wavering,I'm not being half hearted here.
At the end of every chapter, youneed to understand that what you

(32:00):
thought was true with this view is just not true.
Boom. And and you and I needed to hit
it hard. Otherwise if I would hit too
soft in every chapter, it could have taken me 1400 pages.
So I needed to somehow limit it to 400 or something.
You know, I wasn't even trying to go that long.
In fact, my final version was 440.
I cut out 20 pages before I evenreleased the book because it was

(32:20):
really, I was really frustrated about how long it was.
But I, I just didn't know who I was to conquer this because this
isn't like, this isn't like. And in the book, I draw a
parallel between smoking and theaddiction of Christianity.
Also alcohol and Christianity and gambling and Christianity.
Any addictions, it's, it's an addiction that I'm helping free
people from. The difference is when it comes
to just smoking or just alcohol or just, you know, gambling,

(32:41):
whatever. There's so much less to deal
with than a Christian worldview.Because dealing with theism,
bro, I mean, it's so vast. You're dealing with a whole
Bible that's just gigantic and that's got so many views.
I mean, there are 45,000 denominations worldwide of
Christianity that you're just like, how do you even cover

(33:02):
everything? So I did my best to try to
tackle it in a most broadest sense I could while also being
specific. So it, this was a very
challenging work. It was very, very difficult to
nail it down to where everybody who read it would be impacted by
it in some way. But there was no way to do it
where I wasn't going to piss offsome Christians.

(33:25):
I knew that was going to happen.It was.
It was just impossible not to. So I took the approach I did
simply because I had to do something that was going to nail
all the arguments, was going to do it as concisely as possible,
but was also going to be as broadly soft as where I can
remove layers as necessary without taking forever to do it.

(33:45):
The title of the book, I called it that because it's what the
book's about. So at the end of the day, there
was a lot of different titles I could have given it, but my
thought was why not just call the book what it's about?
And in doing so, I thought to myself, if I were a Christian
still as a pastor and I was walking through a bookstore and

(34:08):
I saw this title, I can tell youright now there is no way in
hell I wouldn't have stopped to at least take a peek in the
pages. It's so provocative that I would
have had to say what? That's interesting.
You can't just you can't just walk past that as a Christian.
You can't. It's got to intrigue you.
So I did something that was going to be provocative enough

(34:29):
to at least make a Christian say, huh, I wonder what that's
about. So anyway, that I hope that
answers some of your question ofwhat you were asking.
I maybe I went too long but I tried my best to answer go as
long. As you want people here to hear
about you, you know they're bored to my voice.
So. So talkers on this one.
I like that answer and I like a bit of abrasiveness.

(34:51):
I think there comes a point where you just got to stop
holding hands and say it as it is.
And I'm at that stage in my, in my life, in my podcasting mood,
I'm very much like that. I do occasional episodes where I
view some Christian content and those episodes tend to get
sweary and sarcastic because I, I, I think abrasiveness is

(35:13):
sometimes required. And I like your logic.
You know, calling a book like that is going to cause somebody
curious to pick it up. And if the words there are too
nice, they're too easy to dismiss.
So you, you've. I'm sold on it.
Yeah. I read all the way through the
book. It would have been hard for me

(35:33):
to read as a believer. There's no two ways around it.
So I guess what that leads to ismy next question is, who do you
want to read this book? Christians.
And when I all right, so, so, soyou may not know about this
detail when I, when I released before I went public with before

(35:54):
I published it, my very, very first, final version that I had
before I published, I wanted to do a test case release.
So I opened up the book to anybody who was any Christian
has to be a Christian, any Christian who was willing to
read this book as a test case. And they read the book and then

(36:15):
they had to give me their surveyresults.
And I had a survey page on my website, which is still there,
but for anybody who still wishesto do it, but they were required
to do it. So, so I'm, so they had an
opportunity to get my book for free, but you have to read it
and you have to, you have to give me results.
I didn't know what the results were going to be.
Obviously I wrote the book with a Christian audience in mind,
because obviously I'm not going to.

(36:36):
It's not going to be hard to convince an atheist of what I'm
saying. So.
My goal was to was to help convince Christians that they're
living a life, you know, that's wasting, you know, a life, it's
a waste of life. It's not real.
They're living for Santa Claus basically.
So I wanted to convince them of that.
So, so that's who I wrote the book for.
So I released it to a test audience and I had 40-40 people

(36:58):
that were willing to be test, test cases.
What I found interesting, and this helped me determine a
little bit more specifically whomy targeted audience became when
I published it. Everybody who read the book that
was a staunch Christian going into reading it, they went into
reading it to prove me wrong. They went into reading it.

(37:21):
You're not going to convince me,I'm just going to show you.
So they never read it with the pure intention of just letting
what I'm saying engage their head.
So like you said, it wouldn't have convinced you as a
Christian because most Christians, let's face it, when
we read anything that's not Christian, we immediately have a
stiff arm torch. And that is that is a necessary
thing you have to do as a Christian.

(37:42):
And the reason is because you have no evidence for your faith
as a Christian. You just have faith.
Faith is not evidential based. It is just faith.
It's nothing. It's just I believe because I
want to believe. There's no grounds to it.
It's just as I wrote in a book, you're literally quite
brainwashed to just believe whatyou believe.
There's no substance to it whatsoever.

(38:02):
So when you just have faith and you know you have no grounding
for it, you don't want to be wrong until those layers are
removed and you wake up. But prior to that, you will not
be wrong on any grounds. You refuse to be wrong.
I can't be wrong. This is my life.
God is my life. I need God.
It's like an addict. I mean, you sound like an
addictive. I need my I need my drugs.

(38:25):
I can't live without. I need my hip, right?
I mean, that's, that's the way addicts do and that and as a
Christian, you're the same way. I I need God, I need God.
That's why I parallel because I think it's identical.
And when you're brainwashed to believe you need this thing, you
will continue to fight tooth andnail to make sure nobody and any
nobody can take this away from you.
You got to have it. So if you read the book like
that, of course it's not going to help you in any way, shape or

(38:49):
form. Just like no books going to help
you, no debate. Like I explained, explained
earlier, I've seen the base where positions were utterly
destroyed, but that person who came in refused to accept
anything that was said because they're going to leave with
their pride. I go on, right.
So when you go into the book like that, it's not going to
convince you. So what I discovered through my

(39:09):
test cases and all the results that I got back, any Christian
who was full-fledged Christian going into it believing that
this book would never convince them.
They came out believing same way.
Nothing in this book convinced them understood, but
fascinating, Matthew, Every, 100%, every Christian that went

(39:30):
into reading this book that had questions, that said, I don't
know, there's some things that Isee that are kind of off about
Christianity. I'm struggling.
I'm not really sure where I stand.
I'm having a hard time. 100% of them came out on the other side
as atheists. Wow, So what I.
Discovered about this book is that it 100% will remove the

(39:53):
brainwashing if you're willing to let it do its job.
If you have enough questions that you're willing to say
maybe, just maybe. And there's something off about
what I believe if you go into with that attitude, it will
absolutely work. Excellent.
And on that note, and I planned to say this anyway at this

(40:14):
point, but thank you for the perfect segue.
This is if you are as sympathetic agnostic or somebody
who's a Christian but is wondering or having challenges
with part of your faith, I do recommend this book.
Genuinely, I do. Some parts of it you might find
difficult, as I've already alluded to.
That's fine. What this book does do is lay

(40:35):
out some really serious issues with Christianity and it's not
unkind about it. It just doesn't nanny you.
And so read the book and see howyou come through it.
And if you have any feedback on the book and you can't find
alanreasonpress@gmail.com is e-mail to find me on and I'm
pretty sure that I'll be able tofind Alan and pass any feedback.

(40:57):
Please read the book. Let me know what you think about
it. I'm interested to know what you
think about it. If I may, I'd.
Me too at Alan. Alan at How to kill god.com.
Send me an e-mail. I'd love to hear from people
too. I would love to hear from you
personally if you don't feel comfortable sharing publicly.
I don't even care one way or theother, but I would love to hear
your feedback because personally, I would be willing

(41:18):
to improve this book in any way,shape or form because I'm
passionate about freeing people.So if there's parts of this book
that are not doing the job, I would love to know about it.
If you didn't catch. That e-mail address, show notes,
you know where to go. Always there, right?
So, Alan, one of the things thatintrigued me about this book was
because there was so much that was covered, so much that you

(41:38):
wrote, so much study that you had to do in preparation.
Obviously you had years and years of previous experience,
and a lot of it you could just bash out, but you still needed
to research for some of it. What was the hardest chapter for
you to write? The hardest chapter was actually
the preface, right? Because I wrote the book and

(42:02):
then I sat back and I said, how the hell am I going to get
anybody to read this, right? I mean, how do you, how do you
get a Christian to read a book about destroying Christianity?
So I knew that's what I wanted to do, but I was like, so I, so
I just, I went with it first. I got it done and then I was
like, what am I going to do withthis preface?

(42:22):
Like, how do you intrigue somebody?
Like the title's intriguing, sure.
And that's enough to make me pick it up.
But if I can't sell me in that first preface, I'm going to put
it down. I'm going to walk away.
So I needed, I, I didn't know what I was going to do.
So I had a preface and I wrote apreface in the original preface.

(42:43):
If you think my first, if you think the rest of the book is
somewhat firm, you should have read my first preface.
Like the preface was pretty muchas harsh as it could be.
It just showed all of the problems throughout history that
Christianity has caused in the world.
Like from murders to crusades tosuicides to children believing

(43:08):
things that aren't true to fear tactics, to you name it, all of
the detrimental acid. And it was pretty harsh.
So my original thought was if I can get Christians to read that,
they'll be like, Oh my goodness,this might be brainwashing.
What if I'm wrong? But I had other, I had a couple
people tech check it out. One person in particular, Dustin
Curly, my friend who was one of the editors of the book, who

(43:30):
ended up being the preface writer of the book.
And the reason was he read that and he said, bro, you leave, you
release this book with that preface.
Nobody's going to read it. He's like, that is so harsh.
Nobody's going to even nobody's going to give you a second.
So I said, wow. And I threw my hands up and I
said, I don't know what to do, Dustin.
I have no idea how I'm going to get somebody to read this book.

(43:53):
I said, why don't you write to preface?
I bet you'll have a much softer approach because now you've read
the book and you know what wouldintrigue somebody?
And that's how the preface came about the way it is.
So that was by far the hardest chapter.
And even after he wrote it, we had to tweet you quite a bit
because it was just, how do you get somebody intrigued in a book
like this? Like it was tough.
Very, very difficult. Because I'm not, I'm not out.

(44:14):
I'm not like the other atheist books.
And look, Matthew, my thing is, I'm not one to just write a book
that just does the same thing everybody else does.
If I'm going to do that, what's the that's a waste of time
because it's already done. And if it's already done, it's
probably done better than I can ever do anyway.
If I'm not going to have an original idea, if it's not going
to be something unique that can contribute to the conversation,

(44:35):
then then I'm not going to writeit.
So this book was an attempt to do something unique.
It wasn't about just attacking all of the Christian views.
It was about with the Christians, starting them in the
journey with me and saying, hey,I know how you feel.
Hey, I was here. Hey, I understand what hope you
have. Let me show you what I think our
hope is. It's not there anymore.

(44:56):
This is not what you hope. Hey, I know what you thought
about all of these view all these apologetical things that
you think, believe, you know, prove the existence.
I used to think that. Let me show you why they don't
actually do what you think they do.
So I really wanted to take that approach because it's different.
It's not in I'm going to attack you first.
It's in the I'm going to show you.
I'm going to talk about what we started with, where we both

(45:17):
thought was right, and I'm goingto show you why it's not.
So anyway, I I guess in some ways I'm blabbering, but I'm
hoping again I'm answering your question about the toughest
praise the universe for on. This trends, yeah.
Following on from that then. In the the various people who
have read this book, because apart from the group that you've
mentioned, I assume other Christians have also read the

(45:39):
book, what chapter has had the most pushback?
So probably the chapter of that I have gotten the most pushback
on is chapter 3 on Hope, why it's so difficult to leave
Christianity. And I have expanded on that
chapter since I've gotten the pushback.

(46:00):
So it's far more elaborate now than it than it was.
But the reason I've gotten the most pushback on the chapter,
and that's the chapter where I talk about the different views
of eternal life, the different Evan and why people big bank
their hope on living for it forever with God.
And Evan, I, I really, I really did try my best in this chapter,

(46:21):
even the first try to cover as as much of the spectrum of
beliefs of the afterlife as I could.
Come to find out there's more. It never ends.
And like, it's like, no matter how much you try to say broadly,

(46:42):
this is what some believe and this is another view and this is
another view. And I think I've covered all of
them. Somebody comes along and they
say, hey, that's a straw man. I don't believe that.
And I say, OK, well, what's yourview?
Well, I believe we're going to be like Mission Impossible
agents that God sends to different universes that we

(47:04):
don't even know about and they go and preach the gospel to them
and I'm like, holy cow, seriously?
So now we're just making stuff up, right?
We're just like, we're just making anything, we anything up
we can. That makes our view of heaven
sound wonderful because there isno wonderful view of heaven,
obviously, because otherwise we just stopped making up views

(47:25):
long ago. But there's no content view.
So Christians are forever makingup some view about the eternal
life that makes us feel good about where we're going.
And so I, so I, I listened to all of these criticisms and I
listened to the results that I got from the test cases and even
the people since then. And I've updated it since then.
And the new Ed book that's up now even has newer versions of

(47:47):
it. But it's like, it's like never
ending. There are so many views about
the afterlife and I'm just like,at what point does this end?
Where do I go online where I stopped trying to incorporate
the newest greatest view of heaven where I'm not being told

(48:07):
I'm presenting a straw man. It just becomes ludicrous, man,
like it really does. So that's been the biggest
pushback is the whole this is a straw man because I don't
believe that view of heaven. I have my own.
OK, you have your own. Wonderful, you know what I mean?
That's. Where I'm at, that's been that's
a perpetual frustration to me. It's.

(48:29):
Funny you should mention that because I've not told any of my
listeners this, although I have fed back to the author.
The my most popular episode of 2024 was an interview with an
author and his book about hell and that episode's going to and
that is my most listened to episode of the whole of 2024.

(48:49):
So clearly it is a subject that people are passionate about and
clearly it is a subject that people want to talk about it.
So quick plug, episode 108, Holyhell, A Case Against Eternal
damnation written by the pastor Derek Kubras.
That is my most listened to episode of 2024.
Go and dig it out. The archives make it the most
listened to episode of 2025, if you dare.

(49:11):
Because hell, hell is clearly something that people want to
talk about or want to read aboutor want to learn about or have
difficulty with, and they're trying to soak up information.
And brandishing a book saying you've got a case against
eternal damnation, I can see that being very attractive.
Yeah. No, sure.
I've also had conversations withpeople about my chapter on hell,

(49:35):
but I will tell you that that hasn't nearly had the traction
as my, my chapter on heaven. For some reason, the people who
have read the chapter on hell have been like, what Hell is not
the Bible? Like people are shocked.
Like I like, I, I, I've been like, the afterlife in general

(49:55):
is huge. So yes, heaven and hell for a
lot of people has a jiget. So they're almost synonymous
really. And when it comes to the to the
stress of leaving Christianity, obviously I know of people who
still as atheists 15 years later, are still having
nightmares about hell. It's sad, bro.
That's sad. That breaks my heart.

(50:16):
I'm like, you're still struggling.
Like they holy cow. Like that's some deep
indoctrination. You know what I'm saying?
Like, but it but it happens and it and it and it's absolutely
sad. But but yeah, so heaven, hell.
But in my chapter on hell, I mean, I just completely just
dispel the whole Donture of hellall together.
So there's just nothing to hell but the doctrine of heaven.

(50:38):
You know, at least the Bible uses the term even in the
original language. It's there heaven, guys.
I mean, I know they're, but I can see where the doctrine came
from. But hell, it's not even the
Bible. Like Gehenna is the closest we
get to hell. It's not even the word for hell.
So it's bizarre that that doctrine ever got even visited.

(50:59):
I don't even know how that developed.
It's weird, I've seen people because.
I'm a member, I'm a member of multiple Facebook groups that
talk about deconstruction from Christianity or deconversion,
and I love seeing the way the communities in those groups help
each other out. And the issue of hell comes up
occasionally. And one particularly frustrating

(51:19):
story that I had, again, this isa true story, a conversation I
had with a parent who admitted to me that their child had said
that they'd lain in bed at nightworried about their own future
fate. And this is a child that's a
young teen, stroke preteen. And this is what the doctrine of

(51:42):
hell taught in Sunday school does to children.
And I frankly will never forgiveChristianity for doing that to a
dear friend's child, because it's just abuse.
And absolutely. It's because I saw a meme just
this week where Jesus is talkingto a child in heaven, and the
child is asking, where is my mother?

(52:03):
And then Jesus says to the child, well, she she's in hell
because she's an atheist. And she says, well, where is the
man who raped her? Well, he's in heaven because he
was a Christian. Yeah.
I mean, that's sick, yeah. And he says, oh, there he is.
Let's go say. Hi to him.
Like I know we don't like to think about those things.

(52:24):
Just like just like as Christians, you don't like to
think about how the flood destroyed babies that you know
are drowning and dying and all these people that are innocent,
like literally never did anything, but they're just
drowning because God's just doing all we ever want to focus
on is the rainbow. But like, bro, there's so many
horrible stories in the Bible that if you actually pay

(52:48):
attention and let it play out inyour head and realize he tells
of it, it's, it just makes you want to throw up.
Like, I, I can't even believe that.
I used to think that this God was a loving God and that he was
wonderful. He's nothing but a narcissistic,
horrible, evil God that's just like, has no moral compass

(53:08):
whatsoever. It is just sick.
Yeah. Has the moral compass of an
ancient male dominated group of people who liked to fight at the
weekends? Yes.
Frankly, yes, exactly. And.
I really wanted people to understand what which God
they're worshipping in my book. I tried really hard to paint

(53:31):
that picture, but as you said, maybe it's just too hard for
Christians to swallow. I don't know.
OK, so let's change tack. A bit.
Let's tell you about my favoritepart of the book.
And I'm I'm hoping this will be amusing and I hope it's all this
will be fun. It's a very tiny part of your
book. And because I've been doing this
for five years, I've exposed myself to lots and lots of

(53:54):
Christian content. I still listen to many Christian
podcasts on a daily basis on my commute into work.
I'm still hoovering up all of this stuff.
So I'm a bit like you. I've heard it all.
So there was nothing in your arguments that wasn't new to me
in the sense, oh, I've never heard a Christian say this, or
I've never heard this response to this because I've been there.

(54:18):
But I did like that it was all together.
So the gem in the book, you brought up something that from
memory, I've only encountered once before and had forgotten
about it. And your book brought it back as
a fresh memory. And it was like, yes, why did I
forget about that? I need to remember that more.

(54:38):
And I need to bring it up because there are other examples
that are related to this that I can also bring up about what is
faulty about the compilation of the Bible.
And this is it. It's the resurrection of
Lazarus. And why is that the last time
you ever hear about Lazarus? Why was Lazarus not world famous

(54:59):
after that? Why is there not an interview
about Lazarus after that? Why was every why did everybody
suddenly forget that he ever existed?
Yeah. Why is there not a book of
Lazarus saying what he did afterabout how wonderful he was and
and what the experience in deathwas like for him?
Nothing. Absolutely nothing.

(55:21):
So thank you for for reminding me of that and thank you for
putting in that was my little treasure from your book.
Oh, you're welcome. You had to dig real hard for
that one. It proves I.
Read it. Yeah, it does prove, yeah.
Yeah, boy, I had to read throughthis trudgery to find this one

(55:41):
golden nugget. I found it though.
Too funny? Yeah, so, so that was that.
So read the book for that, if for nothing else.
But no, genuinely, genuinely, I love chatting with you, Alan.
You're brilliant. You're you're effervescent.

(56:02):
Nobody's going to see the image that I'm seeing in front of you.
You're you're you're very Italian with your hands, which
is wonderful. And I'm having a great time
talking to you. So what was the bit that you had
the most fun in writing of this book?
Apart from the Lazarus bit, obviously.
Yeah, well, the most fun I I would say.

(56:23):
Is a toss up between the apologetics chapter because it
was very fun for me to reveal how it's nothing more than
circular reasoning on every single argument.
That was fun. I enjoyed that.
And then that's sort of because I'm far more cerebral than I am

(56:44):
emotional, that I'm a very cerebral person.
So, so you're going to find thatchapter to be extremely
cerebral. And it's a very tough I've I've
heard that's, that's probably what I've heard is the most
difficult chapter to get from mybook.
And it's early on as well. And so I've heard people say
that's a really, it's like chewing through mud to get
through that. Unfortunately, you know, dealing

(57:06):
with apologetics is like chewingthrough mud.
So it is it's it's it's. It's a tough subject.
I get very bored listening to apologists because they they use
25,000 words when three would doand so countering all the gunk
they put out is equally tedious and it's necessary because of
what they put out. And it is and and you have to

(57:29):
deal. With it, I tried to keep it as
succinct as I could, but it they're just terrible arguments.
They're terrible. They don't they don't prove what
they say they prove at all. And so, and I wanted it was an
essential chapter. It's not one that I really
wanted to write because I knew that it would bog people down,
but but it's essential if you'regoing to write a book like this,
you can't just not deal with apologetics.

(57:50):
You know what I mean? Like you have to.
So if you can get through that chapter, the rest is a lot
lighter than than that chapter. But but at any rate, some people
who are more cerebral like me, that's going to be your favorite
chapter because I just really enjoyed that.
But I would say the other part for me that was good was
responding to some of my criticsand public rebukes and people

(58:16):
who tried to save me again in mylater chapters, probably, you
know, chapters 383940, those kinds of chapters real late in
the book where I damage the way I talked about the people who
had did those things. And I get to respond to them
because, because I didn't reallyget a chance to respond to them
publicly, even though they attacked me publicly and

(58:41):
presented quite a few really horrible statements about me
bringing up old letters, things from five years ago that had
nothing to do with me now, just some really horrible stuff.
And I sat on that for a number of years.
I just, I let it simmer. I talked to counsel rather than

(59:01):
responding in the moments and bringing people into light, into
the limelight that I knew didn'twant to be brought into it,
which was why I didn't mention them in the first place in my
interview. I really want, I really wanted,
I really wanted my, my, my coming out as an atheist to be

(59:22):
dealt with by those in the theological world on the grounds
of my atheistic arguments alone.I didn't want them to do ad
hominem attacks. I was hoping that they wouldn't
start to talk about my past lifefrom five years beforehand
saying Oh well, he's a Sinner because he did this and that and

(59:46):
that's why you can't. That has nothing to do with me
being an atheist. Like, attack my arguments.
I'm fine with that. We can talk all day long about
the argument, but don't start bringing up ad hominem attacks
and saying that my arguments aren't solid and don't have any
grounds because I sinned once inmy life.
Like I just got very irritated by that and I really wanted to

(01:00:09):
come out vehemently and attack these people when they first
brought those arguments out. But I didn't.
I bit my tongue, I bit my, I betmy time, and I waited until I
wrote the book where I could calm calmly.
And methodically respond to themin a way that didn't, didn't
humiliate them publicly because nobody knows her name.

(01:00:30):
But I responded to their, their statements to show that it was
entirely fallacious. But what I did by doing that is
show that as as the next Christian, you're going to face
these kinds of attacks, especially if you were in a
position like I was when I was aChristian as a pastor, a public
speaker, somebody who was invited to conferences, somebody

(01:00:51):
who had somewhat of a following.You leave.
And these other pastors, they don't know what to do with you
because they're, they're flocks.So to speak to people in their
church, they're all freaking out.
They're saying, well, I don't understand how did Alan Bondar
leave Christianity, you know, orwhatever.
And they don't know what to say to these people.
So they just attack my character.
That's. That's not.

(01:01:12):
Cool. That's just not cool.
That is not the way you approachthe response to to an atheist
just because you have nothing tosay to their arguments and not
give you the right to attack their character.
So I got to say like to answer your question, that was probably
my favorite part was I finally had the opportunity after years
of bidding my time and being patient to respond to all those

(01:01:35):
attacks and show how they have no bearing whatsoever on what I
was actually saying. So that is actually.
Quite despicable. And you do you hint at that
going on in your book. And I had the predictable anger
response when I read about that.But at the same time,
unfortunately, I also wasn't surprised.

(01:01:59):
It's it's just point. I mean, right at this moment,
there's a well known former Christian apologist who in the
last year has come out as no longer believing.
And it was literally only last month, I think I found an
apologetics organization that put out nearly three hour video

(01:02:19):
completely attempting to dismantle this guy's
deconstruction. And included in all the notes is
look at that, Look at his divorce.
Here's the link to the court papers for his divorce.
He is not a character that you can trust when it comes to his
deconversion. I'm like, dude, well, it's the
same thing that you've just said.

(01:02:39):
You're making a personal attack to try to discredit an an
intellectual argument. It doesn't work.
And that's right. And it doesn't and.
And those who can actually see Strake and realize that that has
there's no bearing on the actualcontent of what the person's
saying. Like, I could be, I could be
Hitler, for crying out loud, andstill present a cogent argument

(01:02:59):
about something. Just because I'm Hitler doesn't
make my argument incorrect. Yeah.
And then, I mean, it may be a horrible person, but that
doesn't make my particular argument about something
incorrect. You still got to deal with that
content. That's the problem is I don't
think Christians know how to deal with the content of
atheists. They don't know what to do with
it. So they just attack the
character. And that's not, that's just not,

(01:03:21):
it's frustrating. And so, yes.
Exactly. Yeah.
So that was that was good. For me, I just, it was like I
said, part of why I wrote my book was that it was therapeutic
for me. I needed that and it allowed me
to release some of the anger that I had from that.
So that was good, excellent. And brief point on the whole
thing about Christians being obsessed with pureness of

(01:03:44):
character. It is January the 20th today who
have Christians put into power? Yes, they have balanced point.
As a Brit, I'm yeah, let's move on before this.

(01:04:04):
And so I understand you don't want it to be political, but I.
I feel your pain dude. I'm with you.
I get it. With you, let's have a moment of
silence. Yeah, yes, moments of.
Silence as we mourn the integrity of the people we once
looked up to, right? Moving on.

(01:04:25):
The favorite part, apart from that Lazarus gem, the bit I
really appreciated in your book is right at the very end of the
book there's a very noticeable changing gear and you change
tone, you change gear, you become a pastor again and you
talk about finding community post Christianity with some very

(01:04:48):
good practical advice, some hints, some personal experience.
And it's beautifully written andI'm really, really glad that
that is in the book. I think the book is so much
better for having that in at theend.
So listeners again make it through the book and read the
last chapters and enjoy them forwhat they are.

(01:05:09):
Was that intentional to put those last couple of chapters
in, or was that a later edition?No, no, it was definitely
intentional. Before I even started writing
the book, I remember talking to one of my very close friends who
was also escaped kind of like I did and I and I asked, I told
him I was, I think I'm going to write a book.
I said, I want to write a book about this.

(01:05:30):
And he said, dude, he's like, how are you going to help heal
people in this process? Because he said you can write a
book and you can destroy their faith and that's great, but what
are you going to do for them? Thought about that.
I said, wow, you're right. How am I going to heal them at
the same time? So I had a very intentional
ending to this book, like I'm going to destroy your faith,

(01:05:51):
which is good actually, even though you don't realize it is
going into it. But now that I've done that, I
want to help you, you. I want to show you that there is
hope that there is something wonderful on the other side of
this. And I want to bring some
encouragement to you because life is much better on this side
really is. You just don't think it is
because you've been brainwashed for so long to think only one
day. But if you can get out of that,

(01:06:12):
there are some really awesome things on this side.
So yeah, yeah, it was intentional.
Excellent. Glad because it.
Very much was a literary hug those final chapters.
So thank you for that, Alan. And I'm pretty sure that other
people who are going to read thebook are going to feel the same.
Well, I appreciate that that. That actually really encouraged
me and blows my line a little bit because I I did not expect

(01:06:34):
anybody to say the final chapters were the better
chapters. That's really like, I kind of
was like, I was so worried aboutthe last chapters because I was
like, is this enough? Is this going to wrap up the
book? Are people going to be annoyed?
That's encouraging. I appreciate it.
It's the the perfect ending. It's.
What your book needed as the ending, to be quite honest.
So no, very, very, very pleased to read those chapters.

(01:06:57):
Really pleased. And so I've got something in my
eye that's that's definitely notman tears.
So there's, there's Oh, I thought, I thought you were
trying for. Me I I thought you were don't
love those last chapters. You were just tearing up, man.
Don't, don't embarrass me. I'm 50 and I'm male.
Those things don't happen right?You better stop or I'm going to

(01:07:18):
have to fly out there and give you a hug, man.
Oh. I will.
I'm in cider. I'm in this part of the UK which
is famous for cider. So when you're here, I will
definitely introduce you to somequality ciders and we'll have a
good old man hug over some applejuice with some other bits in it
and it it'll be ugly. I, I promise you it'll

(01:07:40):
definitely be ugly. That sounds.
Wonderful man, it'll be perfect for.
TikTok, right? If it's still if it's still
going by, then that is going. Yeah, right.
Oh my goodness. That's too funny.
Absolutely hilarious. So I.

(01:08:00):
We, we, short of me actually getting the book out and reading
it, we, I think we've covered everything that that I want to
talk about. The only other question I wanted
to ask about the book and you kind of hinted at it earlier.
So let's concrete this down. Do you really think there's a
possibility for a version 2? Do you think you there are some

(01:08:20):
of those chapters might get padded out, added to some new
arguments done. We're going to see a 600 page
version 600 paper. I don't know I can I can tell
you that I have I have no doubt that at some point there will be
a, a revised version released because this is this is my first

(01:08:43):
go away. Well, second go, I guess, you
know, besides my, my test cases and, you know, based on feedback
I get from you and others, whichI hope people give me feedback
because let's face it, if this book is going to be effective
long term, I want it to be as good as possible.
So I fully expect that over the course of time, as people give
me feedback, I'm going to make further tweaks and, and maybe

(01:09:03):
shorter, maybe longer, I don't know, I don't know which way to
go. Maybe I need to cut it in half.
I, you know, I don't know eitherway, half, double, same.
It doesn't matter. The point is what's going to be
the most effective. I see that as a community
project. You know, I want as much
feedback as I can. I have, I'm not married to this
book in a prideful way where it's like, don't tell me what

(01:09:24):
you don't like. I hate, I don't care.
I I want it to be great. So, so I definitely foresee a
second version of this in the future.
Also, I am working out in my mind a sequel to the book
talking about life beyond Christianity.
Like, now you've escaped and you've healed and you no longer

(01:09:48):
have all that. What do you do next?
I want to talk about some of thescientific stuff, some of the
things I've been thinking about.What are the questions you're
going to get from theists to tryto dissuade you from atheism?
How do you respond to theists? Like, for example, one of the
things that I constantly see when I engage with theists is

(01:10:08):
I'll ask them, you know, to demonstrate through evidence
that God does that, that God exists.
And the response, again is, well, yeah, we'll prove God
doesn't. Well, it's simple.
You just say that isn't my responsibility.
I'm not coming at you saying Goddoesn't exist.
I'm saying prove he does becauseyou're making the claim.
And and they and they and they and then theists will want to

(01:10:29):
say, Oh yeah, well, you're saying evolution works will
prove, prove this and prove that.
And I'm like, I don't have to prove that because I'm neither
claiming it is the definitive answer, nor am I even trying to
make a claim. That is, you're coming at me
saying God exists and I'm sayingno, he doesn't because I don't
see any evidence. That's the only one I believe
so. So all of those kinds of things

(01:10:50):
and how to engage a theist is, is kind of important because I
don't know what it is about theists, but they have this idea
that they are allowed to believewhatever they want to believe as
long as nobody can prove it wrong.
Yeah, which is super strange because it's like me saying he
has a argument in my book. Gurings, like I believe in
gurings, prove they don't exist.Well.

(01:11:11):
You can't exist. Because they don't exist to
begin with. I, it's so weird.
So things like that, like I just, I kind of want to help
help you as an ex theist. Like what's your next steps?
How do you think in this world outside of Christianity so that
you don't feel out in the cold not knowing what your next steps

(01:11:33):
are? So that's kind of where I'm
thinking. I don't know if that's going to
happen because anytime you writea book, it is a process.
It took me years to write this last one and it takes a lot of
time away from your family and it kills the relationship a
little bit for that period of time.
So if I do write it, it's probably not going to be anytime
soon, but I do have thoughts on it and I hope to release that at

(01:11:55):
some point just because, well, when you're a passionate person,
you can't help but write, so of course.
I think it's a great book. I think it's worthy of a second
edition and I love your idea. I think something for how to
bandage ourselves, how to how tolive better is definitely
something that is needed that that needs to be out there.

(01:12:17):
The communities that the very that are springing up are great.
The podcasts of people talking through experiences are great.
That's all part of the healing process.
I think a book is a great addition to all of that.
I think will be a brilliant idea.
So Alan and question that. I like to actually one more
thing just before I get to the final question is I did the

(01:12:41):
number one mistake. I went to read a couple of
reviews of your book and one made me laugh.
It was why do these people always attack Christianity?
Why don't they attack any other concept of gods?
And I laughed out loud because it was a one star review.
So let's show that person's obviously never going to listen

(01:13:04):
to my podcast. But let's answer that question,
shall we? Why did you just attack
Christianity and nothing else? No, I think it's funny.
I. Just I just messaged my friend
this morning with that exact review and I said have you seen
this? Like literally he gave me a one
star review for being too focused in my book and not
attacking every possible God or another son.

(01:13:26):
Like, really? Like do you know?
How long this book would be if Itried to attack God under the
sun, like seriously. And that that merits A1 star
review. Like I literally said in my
book, I'm focused on Christianity like and only
because that's where I came out of.
So it was not my goal in the book.
Yeah, you argue against every possible God.

(01:13:48):
Now I deal with it in some ways very, very minorly, but
obviously if you're a Christian and you believe your God is the
only God and I destroy the Christian God, that you're not
going to believe in any other God, so.
It was just a no. Brainer for me as a former
Christian to just focus on Christianity simply because

(01:14:08):
that's the God I knew, you know?So I was just shocked by this
because I was like, what are youasking me to do that's so weird.
Like, yeah, like. It wasn't like.
I came out in the very beginningand said I'm going to attack
every God under the sun and thenonly attack Christianity.
I literally said this is my focus and he critiqued the whole

(01:14:30):
book based on the fact that I had that focus instead of every
God. It was like, what do you
thought? Anyway, it's so weird.
Dude, that was so weird. I didn't even know what to do
with that comment. It was so bizarre.
It it is, I mean. I've had similar questions to
myself and the answer is Christianity is what I know.
Christianity is what hurt me. Christianity is what I was

(01:14:51):
indoctrinated. Indoctrinated into.
You know, if you want to critique a Muslim on Islam, I am
not that person. Go, go find the next Muslim they
know about Islam. They'll do that job for you.
Me. My job's Christianity.
Yeah. And if you want to have an
apologetical. Debate with me over the
existence of any God? Fine.
I mean, we could do that and I'll make you prove God your God

(01:15:14):
the same way I do the Christian God.
You're going to fall short just like Christians do.
That's fine. But it wasn't my goal to do that
with every God under this. I mean, do you realize how
impossible that would be? Yeah.
Like, I would literally have to come up with gods.
I would have to pretend there are gods to prove that they all
don't exist. I would have to come up with
gurings, for example, or what have you.

(01:15:36):
You know, like, let's make up a God.
The. I like that one.
What's that? I like that one.
You like that guy in the? That one too and every single
bro like it becomes ridiculous. You like trying to disprove gods
that don't exist is the silliestcritique I've ever heard in my

(01:16:00):
life. I know it's great, just.
Don't touch the invisible pink Unicorn, That one.
That one's my pet one. You're not allowed to touch that
one. Leave that one alone.
Matthew. I'm.
With you, man. You and I both believe in that
one. I cannot.
I have no arguments against thatone.
Thank you. That is our survivor.

(01:16:22):
Absolutely right. Before this descends into
something bizarre, Alan, Oh dear.
Oh dear. Do you think the listeners have
a sense that we're actually enjoying this conversation?
I hope so. I don't think you have any
listeners left. I think, I think it's just you

(01:16:43):
and me now it is right guesting.On Still Unbelievable next month
is Alan. So Alan did his magical pink
Unicorn. Hey, that that.
That's that's a mental image I do not need.
Thank you very much, kind Sir. Now your guests, you have no

(01:17:08):
listeners left. That was the worst view you
could have ever. Done.
Yeah. Awful.
Yeah. Awful, right.
So final question then, Alan, all my guests, well most of my
guests get this question. Do you have a favorite favorite
Bible character and who is it sofavorite?

(01:17:32):
Might be strong because, you know, now that I no longer
believe in the Bible favorite, but I will say that I probably
have a infamous favorite character, so to speak, and that
would be Peter, the apostle Peter probably because he
resembles me quite a bit. He's been known as the apostle
that puts his foot in his mouth and doesn't know when to shut up

(01:17:53):
and just always speaks out of turn and next thing you know,
he's like, oh man, I did it again.
That's kind of like me. I do that a lot.
So I guess I, I, I relate to hischaracter quite a bit in the
Bible. So so I suppose if I were to
choose a a favorite infamous character, he would be he would
be the one Peter Excellent I. Wouldn't have predicted an

(01:18:14):
apostle from you, Alan. I do sometimes like to try and
guess who I'm going to get from a guest and occasionally I've
been close. But yeah, apostle definitely
wasn't there. I was thinking you'd probably
pick someone that obscure or minor prophet or or something
like that's where I was going with my prediction for you.

(01:18:36):
So tell me, tell me, who are youthinking?
I I wasn't thinking anyone. Specific, but it was that kind
of thing. I was wondering it's going to be
someone obscure because he's definitely going to have a good
knowledge. So like Hezekiah.
Yeah, some of that or maybe. Micah or, or, or or something
like that. So I was wondering that sort of

(01:18:58):
area, but I was definitely thinking Old Testament rather
than New Testament. So yeah, I I was completely
wrong on that one. But Peter's probably a good one.
I think. I've had a Peter previously.
I think people like Peter, they like that he messes up.
They're like, like he boarsed up, but apparently still came
good in the ends. But Paul eclipsed him in the end

(01:19:22):
as well. So, But yeah, Peter's probably,
I imagine that of all the apostles, Peter was probably the
one who was most fun down the pub.
Oh, absolutely. And I like to think of.
Myself as fun, so that's a good point.
I mean if I were to. Think of who you would.
Be, I would think Mordecai like you're you're you're a Mordecai
for me, more the chaos. That's the uncle of Esther or

(01:19:48):
something, is that right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's the one. So that would be like when I
think of you, I'm like, oh, Mordecai, but who would you?
I don't know if you've ever beenpaid faced to the question, but
what about you? Who would be your?
Your No, No one's, ever. Turned that round on me.
That's so unfair. And you know what?

(01:20:10):
I don't know who to pick. I've thought through this about
who I would pick and I I really,really don't know.
And I've even tried to think whoit would have been when I was a
Christian and it probably would have been one of the apostles
when I was a Christian, but who would it be now?

(01:20:33):
Who? Who you're not allowed to say
more. I don't know.
I don't know. But what I will tell you a funny
story and it's. It.
Involves my mother and for thosewho have read apostate stories
of deconversion, there's a storyin there, a reference I make to

(01:20:56):
a tragic incident involving my mother that she survived, but it
was a terrible incident and the first time I saw her after that
incident because my mum, we weretalking late 70s so my mum
always had long straight hair past the shoulders.
Typical 70s lady in Africa. And after that instant the next

(01:21:17):
time I saw her, her hair was cutshort.
She she put her on a perm. My parents marriage had broken
apart at that point. I was about 9:00-ish years old,
and she was driving a little redFiat.
And I can't remember how long after it was, but at some point

(01:21:40):
within two years of this event, she revealed that the name that
she'd given this red Fiat was Jezebel.
And I knew enough about the Bible at that young age to know
that Jezebel was not a name thatyou attached anything nice to,
Right, Right. And so I kind of questioned it,

(01:22:04):
and I can't remember what my mother's answer was.
So this little red Fiat for the years of my mum knew had it was
always called Jezebel and I still don't.
My my mum has now since since since died.
So I'll never know the full answer.

(01:22:24):
I'll never be able to ask her. But I'm still very intrigued
because she never lost her faith.
I'm still very intrigued why a woman who would go through such
a deeply, intimately tragic incident would call their car
that name. There's, there's a complexity in

(01:22:46):
there about my mother that I don't understand.
So maybe for that reason, I'll say Jezebel.
That's what you were going. OK, Yeah, all right.
But because I love my mother, it's not.
An intellectual decision. It's because I love my mother
and don't miss her. I understand.
It's for sure, for sure. Well, you know, you're getting

(01:23:07):
all teary out again. You need another hug from me.
I do I I need another? Cider, that's what I mean.
Or, or looking at the time, it'sprobably actually hot chocolate
time given my, my age and my frailty.
But what I will try and do, and somebody emailed about me this
please, in two months time, whatI will try and do is I will come
up with a genuine answer to thatquestion, Alan, And at some

(01:23:31):
point I'll announce it. But I do need to think about it
a little bit more. Damn you, damn you, Alan.
I I get that. I.
Mean, I feel, look, I mean, it'sprobably a lot easier when
you're a Christian, but then youbecome an atheist and, like,
favorite Bible character. What?
Yeah, what? I will.
Say is my favorite answer to that question came from an

(01:23:52):
atheist. And that answer was all those
unnamed people that Job lost, all those people, his family
members, his children, his servants, his friends who were
savagely murdered and never evengot a name.

(01:24:12):
And I think that is the favoriteanswer so far that I've had to
that question. That is, that is a good answer.
I, I, I want to change my answer, I'll come up with
something better. You took it too seriously.
That's. Your problem?
Yeah, right. You know who I am.
I'm, I'm one of the one of the people that were resurrected in
Matthew 27. Whatever.

(01:24:34):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The.
The Walking Dead, Yes, that's me.
My answer. I'm one of those guys.
Oh, I should have thought of that. 10 That's also a great
answer. That's also a great answer.
Yes. Listeners, if you're feeling up
to it, recentpress@gmail.com, send me your favorite Bible

(01:24:55):
character. Let's see if we could have a
couple of really good ones coming along and maybe I'll do a
little short episode featuring some of those.
Send them in, please. Please, Alan, genuinely, I've
really had fun time having this conversation.
Your book is great. Your book is a challenge.
Listeners show notes, books there.
I'm sure you've made it this far.
If you haven't, I'm sorry. I don't miss you.

(01:25:16):
But anyway, read the book. Alan, when your next book comes
out, please be in touch. We'll have you on again and
we'll we'll talk about that again.
You've been really good fun. Thank you so much.
I truly appreciate it, Matthew. I've really enjoyed it.
Anybody who has read the book orreads the book, please send me
your thoughts on e-mail because I would absolutely love to

(01:25:37):
improve upon it just so we talked.
So I hope you a nice day in touch though, Matthew, not just
moving to the next book because I really enjoyed this as well.
You're a thanks to you. Brilliant, brilliant.
Thanks for listening. Until next time you have been
listening to a podcast from Reason Press.
Do you have any thoughts on whatyou've just heard?

(01:25:59):
Do you have a topic that you would like us to cover?
Please send all feedback to reasonpress@gmail.com.
You might even appear on an episode.
Our theme music was written for us by Holly.
To hear more of her music, see the links in our show notes.

All Episodes

Episode 132 - How to Kill God the easy Way

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark

The Joe Rogan Experience

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Episode 132 - How to Kill God the easy Way