February 20, 2025 • 24 mins
The digital world is crowded. Brands are constantly competing for attention, credibility, and influence. But what if instead of renting space on someone else’s platform, you could own the conversation in your industry?
Today, I’m joined by Melissa Rosenthal who is helping brands do just that through a platform helping brands become the number one news source in their space.
We are going to talk about how companies can take control of their brand authority, inject themselves into key conversations, and break away from outdated marketing playbooks.If you're a marketer, brand strategist, or founder trying to navigate the shifting content landscape, this episode is for you.
Today, I’m joined by Melissa Rosenthal who is helping brands do just that through a platform helping brands become the number one news source in their space.
We are going to talk about how companies can take control of their brand authority, inject themselves into key conversations, and break away from outdated marketing playbooks.If you're a marketer, brand strategist, or founder trying to navigate the shifting content landscape, this episode is for you.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The digital world is crowded. Brands are constantly competing for attention, credibility,
and influence. But what if instead of running space on
someone else's platform, you could own the conversation in your industry. Today,
I'm joined by someone who is helping brands do just
that through a platform that helps brands become the number
(00:21):
one news source in their space. We are going to
talk about how companies can take control of their brand authority,
inject themselves into key conversations, and break away from outdated
marketing playbooks. If you're a marketer, brand strategist, or a
founder trying to navigate the shifting content landscape, this episode
is for you. I'm your host, Nikki Ramirez, and this
(00:43):
is Talk Digital to Me, where we uncover the latest
in digital marketing, tech, AI innovation, and strategies for personal
and professional growth. This is episode twenty two. Why borrow
authority when you can own it?
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Hi?
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Everyone, Welcome back to Talk Digital to Me. I'm your
host Nicole Ramirez, and today we're diving into the intersection
of creativity, media and marketing with someone who's not only
led groundbreaking initiatives at brands like clickup, cheddar, and BuzzFeed,
but is also reshaping how companies establish authority in their industries.
(01:30):
Joining me is Melissa Rosenthal, co founder of Autlever, a
platform helping brands become the number one news source in
their space. Melissa has been recognized by Forbes, thirty Under thirty,
Business Insider, and other major publications for her innovative work
in brand building and content strategy. Melissa, it is wonderful
to have you here today.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Thanks for the lovely intro. Excited to be here, Thanks
for having me absolutely so.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
You know, you've got a really impressive background. You've had
some amazing roles at places like BuzzFeed, Cheddar, and click up.
Looking back, Is there a common thread in how you
approach building brands in such different industries?
Speaker 2 (02:10):
M That's actually a great question. I mean, there's definitely
things that I took with me, But the reality is,
like where we were at all the different stages of
these different companies is so different, and what we were
trying to do was definitely swim upstream in pretty much
every instance. And I think, you know, the death is
just basically like stagnation and doing the same thing that
(02:31):
everyone else is doing, Like you have no chance when
you're really competing against either an entirely new market or
you are you know, trying to unseat, encompass in the
in your respective industries. And really the common thread has
just been like, how do we think differently about it?
How do we do what others are not? How do
we you know, where's the grass green for us and
where's the sky blue? And kind of heading in that direction.
(02:54):
I like that.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
I think that is a good common thread between everything.
And so how did that lead you to start out Lever?
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Yeah, starting out Lever it's kind of an interesting it's
really just like a culmination of my entire career at
BuzzFeed and at cheddar. You know, we're building news media companies.
We're building authority, credibility, trying to really have people trust
our voice. And you know, the reality of why you're
doing that as a news media company is to sell advertising.
You know, as un sexy as that is, you know,
(03:21):
your product is not news, Your product is advertising. Your
product is news, but your your modernization strategies advertising, so
right when you're trying to monetize content as a product,
you know, it just kind of raised a lot of
questions of like, we're selling our voice. We're selling this
domain authority, we're selling this trust, and we're lending it
to advertisers so that they can borrow it. And I
(03:42):
always just thought that was such a weird thing because
they're not taking it forever. They're buying it in flighted
inflighted increments, right, So you know, for four months we
do a partnership with X company and they are able
to capitalize on our voice to appeal to our audience.
And I just always thought that there was something more
that could be done where companies themselves could be the
(04:02):
ones in that driver's seat, where they didn't need to
rent rent space within media organizations. And you know, fast
forward to years later, I pivoted from media to B
to B SaaS and I clickup. I had a pretty
healthy marketing budget, and the challenge there was that we
are totally addressable market. Our town was so big, and
it really consisted of pretty much everyone. Its teams of
(04:24):
one to thousands. Our ICP set was everyone from agencies
to develop to engineers, to project managements to product managers.
And when your scope is so wide, it's really hard
to have these conversations and these marketing messages at scale
to be able to reach all of these different icps.
So you have to you have to kind of narrow
it down, and you have to have to select the
(04:45):
ones that you go after, the ones that are going
to give you a higher return on investment. But you know,
I always was kind of thinking like these two challenges
that I had, like what if I could bridge the
gap between the two, which is why I started out
lover and outlover Really is that that gap where between
allowing companies to actually own the credibility, the authority, build
(05:05):
the establishment that media once had. And we've seen a
huge shift in where media is headed. You know, you
see the layoffs, you see the decreasing credibility of these organizations,
and we're going to continue to see that. And on
the B to B SAA side, you know, a lot
all these companies are looking for ways to get into
the worlds of their customers on a daily basis, What
do they care about, what's affecting them and really own
(05:25):
that conversation and talk to them about it. And outlever
allows us to allows companies to do that. So it
really is just like my background, the frustrations I've seen,
the why can't we do it? Like, why isn't there
a solution for this? So I built a solution. I
love that.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
I think a lot of conversation is being had right
now around rented space when it comes to social and
everything with the TikTok band, so I think you were
just filling a gap before everyone else even saw it.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
There's two sides of that, right, Like rented space is
interesting concept because you have to in some capacities, play
within the rented space that's available to you. Like you know,
you're not going to go and build the next Facebook,
and you're not going to go on Instagram and you're
not going to go and build the next TikTok really,
so you know, companies have to do that to some extent.
But on the flip side of that, what if there
(06:11):
was an asset that you could build, that you could
own that would only grow in value over time for
yourself in that platform we believe to be trade publications
and news, which is where we are.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
That makes sense, and yeah, I mean none of us
are really going to go out and actually build a
platform that we're going to own ourselves, but you know,
diversifying that across everything and making sure that you're spreading
out your word is definitely important. And you talk about
brands owning the conversation, what does that mean to you?
And can you share an example of a brand doing
(06:41):
it really well?
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Yeah, I mean I think it's really injecting themselves in
everything that's happening. From the most simple example but done
so well is do Olingo. I mean, they have a
say on everything that's happening within their niche, within popular culture.
You know, when something happens, they hit right back, you
know when the TikTok's.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
So good at the viral moments, the.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Viral moments, but they're just on it. They have a perspective.
They are tapping into the news. They news Jack every
single day. They make themselves a part of the conversation.
And that's you know, I think that's aspirational. It's like
having that the ability to do that allows you to
really own it.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
Yeah, that makes perfect sense. I love seeing what they're doing.
And I love the way you said they news Jack,
because I never really thought of it like that. They
really do make themselves a part of every news story
and every viral moment.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
I mean, the TikTok thing was perfect. It was like,
you know, the commentator, it was, oh, so you're learning Mandarin?
Now they come on. There's no better response to that.
It so perfectly touches and encapsulates the feeling of the moment,
the news, the trend, and a perfect insertion of themselves
within that conversation.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
Absolutely, I totally agree.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
And there's so much content out there it's hard to
stand out like they're doing. How can smaller or newer
brands break through and really establish themselves as these authorities?
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's of your industry, and
I think, like, you know, let's talk about to a
lingos tough, right, because their B two C their addressable
market does anyone looking to learn a language? But I
think on the B to B side, it's a lot
easier than that, actually, like because the icp is is
a little bit more finite than that. You know, the
conversations are happening in a more niche way. They're happening
in very specific arenas, and inserting yourself within that conversation
(08:22):
isn't as tough. You have to be there. You have
to be on the topics that matter to your customers,
to that vertical to your own company, and you have
to be there in an authentic way. You have to
give others the microphone. And I think, like for a
really long time, companies are really good at talking about
themselves say this pretty often, but they sort of sort
back to product marketing, right. They want to talk about
their value prop, their solutions, what they're doing, their perspective.
(08:46):
But I think it's really much more about allowing your prospect,
customers and the people within the industries that you're looking
to have an impact in give them have the microphone
and talk about the things that matter for them and
allowing to do them and being the platform that supports
them and allows them to do that, and then sharing
those opinions with the rest of the world. You're created community,
you're creating thought leadership, you're creating authority, and you're owning
(09:07):
that topic without having to insert yourself into the conversation
at every turn.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
That's a good point.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
I've seen a lot of people talk about how personal
brands of people at companies are going to be the
new trend for this year, and brands really leaning into it.
So when you have your employees thought leaders it makes
such a difference. But what's a common mistake that you
see brands making when it comes to thought leadership and
what's a simple fix that they can do for that.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
I think it goes back to what I was just saying,
like thought leadership is a well rounded strategy, like anything is,
Like it's never one, it's never firing on one cylinder.
And I think companies often make this mistake when their
laser focused on something is they pick this one, they
pick this topic or this initiative or this go to
market motion being thought leadership and they say, okay, our
lane is founder led growth, founder led thought leadership, and
(09:55):
they put their founder on LinkedIn, and you know they're
getting traction. That's great, but that's so limited in terms
of the scope of what thought leadership actually is. And
you know that one window that becomes saturated if you're
not doing it holistically. And I see brands like, you know,
they go full force on this one thing when you're
missing the scope of like there's a lot of other
things that thought leadership is. Thought leadership is having the
(10:16):
conversation to the right people, you know, whether it be
via podcast or whether it be via you know, a
news strategy and editorial strategy. It's not putting yourself the
helm on the microphone every single time. It's empowering others.
It's to your point. It's allowing your employees to speak
on your behalf. It's having a well rounded, you know,
company wide thought leadership strategy in which the expertise within
(10:37):
your company and the embedded knowledge and the trap value
there almost is allowed to come out and comes out
in a way where people are sharing their expertise on
LinkedIn or on their other social platforms. Like I think
there might needs to be a much more well rounded
vision of like what that looks like. And I think
companies just kind of are always singular and in focus.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Usually where do you see content marketing heading over the
next five years, any big shift so you think we
should prepare for.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
I see it heading in a direction where it does not.
It's not the traditional SEO play that we've seen for
the past ten years. I mean, I don't think that
playbook works anymore. With AI summaries and Gemini updates, I
think playing that game is over, and I think people
are going to find new and creative ways to hijack SEO.
Really think about the adjacent ways that people are sharing content,
(11:25):
are finding your content relationships are going to play a
much larger role in content marketing, timeliness and news will
as well. That's our bet. But I think it's just
going to be a huge shift. I mean, you know,
if you're spending fifty thousand dollars a month on an
SEO agency and it's not working anymore, you know, obviously
things will need to change. And I think we're starting
to see a lot of that market.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
That's totally fair. I think that's a good aspect to
look at.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
And I mean, when you're looking at the shifts in
where things are heading, do you think that LinkedIn is
the next big thing to really be focused on.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
I mean, I think it already, Like I think we're
kind of there. You know, there's already a level of
saturation on LinkedIn, and I feel like if you're just
starting on LinkedIn as a company, like many are, like,
it's good to have that, but I think that there
is already kind of early winners of what that looks like.
So I would suggest that, you know, if you're going
all in on LinkedIn, you look to make the strategy
(12:19):
a little bit more holistic on what that is across
the board, because I think LinkedIn is quite saturated and
you know, Obviously the brand page isn't getting much love,
so that means your founders need to really step up
and start writing and or you know, higher ghost writers
or whatever that looks like. But I think like authenticity
across LinkedIn is really important. I think it's just a
part of a strategy. It's just not the holistic strategy.
(12:41):
So yeah, I mean, I'm a huge believer in LinkedIn.
I definitely don't want to downplay how which I utilize
it and how many amazing things in my career it's
brought me. It's one hundred percent of our inbound business
right now, which is amazing.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
Wow, that's really impressive.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
It's definitely a big part in my strategy. They're all
are other things that I think need to happen to
have a holistic strategy and to outlast you know what
that looks like. Again, you are still playing on that
rented land, so if the algorithm changes, you don't want
to be susceptible to all your eggs in one basket.
I think the versification is key.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
Yeah, I completely agree with that. I mean, when you're
looking at the different platforms, if you had a recommendation
for which ones or how many do you have a
certain strategy would recommend to brands.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
I think that kind of depends on the company and
on the target and on the ICP. There's a lot
of variables. I would say, like, you're never going to
be able to have the resources eternally to go crazy
across every single platform. Now B two C companies, I
would say, that's the only thing you have to do.
You have to do that, like that is your entire world,
and that's like the majority of your marketing budget's going
(13:48):
to go to that because that's the only thing that
can give you organic growth and organic traction. And when
your tam it's everyone or everyone over a certain age,
like your playbook is quite limited. It you know, like
it's either raise a ton of money or you have
insane virality and organic traction and growth across these platforms. So,
you know, B two C B to B is very
(14:09):
different in terms of how you market, how you find
your ICP, and where they live. So you know, it's
just a little bit different depending upon the company.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
That's fair.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
And so you know, speaking of content and you know,
being able to put it on every platform and everywhere.
AI is so huge right now, and it's everywhere, especially
in this content creation. How do you see it balancing
human creativity in building these strong brands, and how do
you recommend that brands embrace AI or be cautious of it?
Speaker 2 (14:37):
Like our company is tech enabled services, right, So we've
built a lot of our infrastructure, a lot of the
things that would take people hours and hours and hours
to do. And what we've done is we've built tools,
and we've built and we've built engines and machines that
allow us to make people more efficient and allow people
to think differently. And I think the combination of creating
(15:00):
tech and utilizing AI to make your human workers more
efficient and more creative and more thoughtful and ease the
percentage of their jobs that can be replicated by machine,
that's the perfect mix. I would say, Like, you know,
it's very obvious to me when people are just using
AI across the board, and you know, we're drowning in
(15:22):
a sea of just like robotic text. So you know,
I think human human emotion and human writing is more
important than ever. But I would say if we can
or companies can get to a place where they're comfortable
enough using tech and using AI to get people to
a place where their jobs are easier or to enhance
their creativity or their productivity will be in a good spot.
(15:44):
I think it's the perfect marriage, you know, between man
and machine or woman in machine. Is is that it's
tech enabled creativity, tech enabled productivity.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
Yeah, And what do you think about everyone's conversations, especially
lately on LinkedIn, of oh, if you do this, you
use an m dash, it's clearly written by AI or
you know, we can tell when you're writing AI.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
What are your thoughts on all of that?
Speaker 2 (16:09):
And I think it's kind of silly. I mean, the
reality is that it's it is very clear in some cases,
like when AI is being written like it's in conclusion,
it's using cliches, it's using very specific language, it's you know.
But but the reality is like if you're using if grammatically,
like it's doing something that people have done for years
and years and years, Like I don't know, I like,
(16:31):
I think those conversations are going to be over in
a week or two, and I think we're just going
to focus on like what sounds human. I mean, it's
very telling when someone's writing a sequence that is just
been written by AI, versus when they're writing something that
might be helped by AI. That's fine, Like you know,
run your text through a prompt and say, refine this
and make it better, and then take it back and
(16:52):
edit it yourself. And you know that's sort of where
you should be. I would say, if you feed it
to the machine, like you know, I've seen people on
LinkedIn where the first is the cats out of the bag,
and I'm like, who speaks like that? And I think
it's just like, can you read that text yourself and
does it sound natural coming from your mouth? And if
it doesn't, don't post it. And I think that should
just be the barometer for how you think about like
(17:14):
what you're utilizing it for and how much you give it.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
That anyway, that's fair. I think there are some that
are very obvious. And then there's the AI outreach and
DMS and oh speak it DMS. I saw your Melissa,
What an awful start to the year.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
I got a big take out of that one.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Oh I laughed out loud. Yeah, that was that was great. Honestly,
that captured my attention. I get so many emails and
so many emails and cold outreach, and that was very human.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
I like, I appreciate the honesty.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
I was like, yeah, I get it.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
That is what I will listen to whatever you're about
the SOMA.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
I read the whole thing. I looked at the report.
I know, like, even if it wasn't completely applicable, it's like,
you know what, you get the benefit of that read
because that was that certainly called my attention that it
was very few things do these days.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
Yeah, that's totally fair. I mean, we're just flooded with
so much, so many dms, so much information that you
really have to stand out.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
And that's one way to do it.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
And you know that goes about being human and you know,
being able to talk to another human.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
So I'm on high conviction on humans talking to other people.
That is my bet for the future.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
Yeah, isn't that a weird trend?
Speaker 1 (18:25):
So what is your advice for startups that want to
become leaders in their industry but are starting from scratch?
Speaker 2 (18:33):
Start thinking about the conversations that you need to play
and role in what can you And I'll say, like
there are two pieces of it, like what should you
have a perspective on? But what should you insert yourself
in where you can give others the ability to have
the perspective where you're just the underlying platform, where you're
the underlying place where that happens. And I think that's it.
It's like, can you get people to talk about the
(18:55):
things they care about? Like that is power? First of all,
people really want to talk. There's way less places to
do it in kind of formality where their opinions are
are being you know, wanted by others, where it's not
just self serving, or they're going out and they're posting
on LinkedIn. So I think if you're able to tap
into that, which is a really human thing, it's like,
(19:15):
how do you give it and provide value to other
people and in essence then create a relationship with them
where you know eventually you could provide value to them
through whatever product you're offering, your thing that you're selling.
And I think it's just like it needs to be
more of a symbiotic relationship. Or it's like the way
that we've treated you know, sales and cold out bound
and now we're making it way worse so they are.
It's just like, how do we go back to what
(19:36):
people really value, which is relationships. I understand your problem.
I want to help you. I want to make sure
that we give you a platform to speak on the
things that matter to you. I care about what matters
to you, Like, we don't really do that anymore. So Yeah,
I would say, like, go back to that, Just go
back to fundamentals of what matters. And I think a
lot of the people that are trying to have that
that hockey stick growth to sending sequences to spray and pray,
(20:01):
it's going to die really hard and fast.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
Yeah, I totally agree.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
I think human connection is going to be so essential
as we're moving into AI and everything that we've got
from that. I mean, AI is going to be such
a good tool to help and finding the right people
to reach and building your brand, but we have to
keep the human part of it.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Yeah, I'm high conviction on things that like are just
bringing people together, like events and dinners and phone calls
and zooms. I believe in those more than I believe
in you know, a ton of crazy outbound that unpersonalized
stuff Like you know, outbound used to work really well
because you were customizing and personalizing a message, you were
(20:44):
doing the research, You acted like a journalist to be
able to even send that email, and the response rates
were really high because it was so customized, and now
we've like bastardized that with AI. So I think it's
like we just have abused the tools that we've been given.
And I think that's not for us. It's natural for
us because we want growth, we want growth really fast.
(21:04):
We have tools now in our arsenal that allow us
to achieve that, and we're abusing them. And I think
like we need to take a step back and think about,
like you've used something too much breaks.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
Yeah, I mean there's something to be said that it's
a tool and not a replacement for the so many
things we're doing. There's so many times that I talk
to people on LinkedIn and dms and they go, oh,
you're a human or oh you're not trying to sell
me something, and I'm like, yeah, I'm just having a conversation.
Speaker 3 (21:29):
We are just networking, Like yeah, imagine that.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
And they're like, oh, I'm not used to talking to people.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
Yeah, yeah, it's wild, it's really wild.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
Well, you've been a part of so much growth and innovation.
What got you so excited for the future of marketing
right now?
Speaker 2 (21:45):
I mean, I am excited about it. That's why I'm
you know, that's why I quit my CMO role to
do it. It's it's kind of like I felt really
really stuck, to be honest, I felt like we were
all just relying on these same playbooks. Everyone's doing the
same things. I talk to marketers all the time, and
they're struggling, Like they are really struggling. I think that
there's just such high pressure and expectations around growth. But
(22:09):
at the same time, budgets are down, they're not what
they were, and there are no new playbooks, there are
no new ways of thinking, and I think we have to,
like we have to figure out creativity again. Obviously, like
I think brand building plays a huge role in that,
but I think, like you can't just keep doing the
same thing over and over and expect it to work.
It's like that's insanity. So like what do you do?
(22:30):
You got to find new avenues. And that's why I'm
excited about what we're doing. I feel like it's disruptive.
I think it's a new way of reframing and thinking
about thought, leadership and sales and all of the motions
that are usually disjointed, and we're bringing those together in
a way that I think shakes up the industry. So
I'm I'm excited about what we're building.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
I'm excited just seeing where you guys are going to grow,
and I think it's a really cool thing that you're
working on. I love that you've shared, you know, practical
advice and some big picture things on where marketing is heading.
For anyone listening who wants to connect with you or
learn more about out lever, where should they go?
Speaker 2 (23:03):
Find me on LinkedIn? I'm very active on LinkedIn. I
respond very quickly to people, real people, really, not an
AI no, no bots, no, but I'm on LinkedIn. I
respond very fast.
Speaker 3 (23:14):
Awesome.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
Well that's perfect, and thank you again for being here.
I'm sure everyone learned a lot and I'm looking forward
to seeing what you do this here.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
Thanks so much, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
That wraps up another episode of Talk Digital to Me,
where we explore the strategies, trends, and innovations shaping the
future of marketing. I hope Melissa's insights on brand authority,
content strategy, and the power of owning the conversation gave
you some fresh ideas on how to rethink your marketing approach.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
The days of relying.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
Solely on SEO social media algorithms and rented platforms are shifting,
and brands that adapt will be the ones that lead.
If you enjoyed this conversation, leave a review on Apple Podcasts,
Share this episode with a friend or colleague, and don't
forget to subscribe on whatever platform you're listening to me
now until next time, keep innovating, keep creating, and don't
(24:06):
just join the conversation, own it.
Speaker 3 (24:09):
See you soon.
The digital world is crowded. Brands are constantly competing for attention, credibility,
and influence. But what if instead of running space on
someone else's platform, you could own the conversation in your industry. Today,
I'm joined by someone who is helping brands do just
that through a platform that helps brands become the number
(00:21):
one news source in their space. We are going to
talk about how companies can take control of their brand authority,
inject themselves into key conversations, and break away from outdated
marketing playbooks. If you're a marketer, brand strategist, or a
founder trying to navigate the shifting content landscape, this episode
is for you. I'm your host, Nikki Ramirez, and this
(00:43):
is Talk Digital to Me, where we uncover the latest
in digital marketing, tech, AI innovation, and strategies for personal
and professional growth. This is episode twenty two. Why borrow
authority when you can own it?
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Hi?
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Everyone, Welcome back to Talk Digital to Me. I'm your
host Nicole Ramirez, and today we're diving into the intersection
of creativity, media and marketing with someone who's not only
led groundbreaking initiatives at brands like clickup, cheddar, and BuzzFeed,
but is also reshaping how companies establish authority in their industries.
(01:30):
Joining me is Melissa Rosenthal, co founder of Autlever, a
platform helping brands become the number one news source in
their space. Melissa has been recognized by Forbes, thirty Under thirty,
Business Insider, and other major publications for her innovative work
in brand building and content strategy. Melissa, it is wonderful
to have you here today.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Thanks for the lovely intro. Excited to be here, Thanks
for having me absolutely so.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
You know, you've got a really impressive background. You've had
some amazing roles at places like BuzzFeed, Cheddar, and click up.
Looking back, Is there a common thread in how you
approach building brands in such different industries?
Speaker 2 (02:10):
M That's actually a great question. I mean, there's definitely
things that I took with me, But the reality is,
like where we were at all the different stages of
these different companies is so different, and what we were
trying to do was definitely swim upstream in pretty much
every instance. And I think, you know, the death is
just basically like stagnation and doing the same thing that
(02:31):
everyone else is doing, Like you have no chance when
you're really competing against either an entirely new market or
you are you know, trying to unseat, encompass in the
in your respective industries. And really the common thread has
just been like, how do we think differently about it?
How do we do what others are not? How do
we you know, where's the grass green for us and
where's the sky blue? And kind of heading in that direction.
(02:54):
I like that.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
I think that is a good common thread between everything.
And so how did that lead you to start out Lever?
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Yeah, starting out Lever it's kind of an interesting it's
really just like a culmination of my entire career at
BuzzFeed and at cheddar. You know, we're building news media companies.
We're building authority, credibility, trying to really have people trust
our voice. And you know, the reality of why you're
doing that as a news media company is to sell advertising.
You know, as un sexy as that is, you know,
(03:21):
your product is not news, Your product is advertising. Your
product is news, but your your modernization strategies advertising, so
right when you're trying to monetize content as a product,
you know, it just kind of raised a lot of
questions of like, we're selling our voice. We're selling this
domain authority, we're selling this trust, and we're lending it
to advertisers so that they can borrow it. And I
(03:42):
always just thought that was such a weird thing because
they're not taking it forever. They're buying it in flighted
inflighted increments, right, So you know, for four months we
do a partnership with X company and they are able
to capitalize on our voice to appeal to our audience.
And I just always thought that there was something more
that could be done where companies themselves could be the
(04:02):
ones in that driver's seat, where they didn't need to
rent rent space within media organizations. And you know, fast
forward to years later, I pivoted from media to B
to B SaaS and I clickup. I had a pretty
healthy marketing budget, and the challenge there was that we
are totally addressable market. Our town was so big, and
it really consisted of pretty much everyone. Its teams of
(04:24):
one to thousands. Our ICP set was everyone from agencies
to develop to engineers, to project managements to product managers.
And when your scope is so wide, it's really hard
to have these conversations and these marketing messages at scale
to be able to reach all of these different icps.
So you have to you have to kind of narrow
it down, and you have to have to select the
(04:45):
ones that you go after, the ones that are going
to give you a higher return on investment. But you know,
I always was kind of thinking like these two challenges
that I had, like what if I could bridge the
gap between the two, which is why I started out
lover and outlover Really is that that gap where between
allowing companies to actually own the credibility, the authority, build
(05:05):
the establishment that media once had. And we've seen a
huge shift in where media is headed. You know, you
see the layoffs, you see the decreasing credibility of these organizations,
and we're going to continue to see that. And on
the B to B SAA side, you know, a lot
all these companies are looking for ways to get into
the worlds of their customers on a daily basis, What
do they care about, what's affecting them and really own
(05:25):
that conversation and talk to them about it. And outlever
allows us to allows companies to do that. So it
really is just like my background, the frustrations I've seen,
the why can't we do it? Like, why isn't there
a solution for this? So I built a solution. I
love that.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
I think a lot of conversation is being had right
now around rented space when it comes to social and
everything with the TikTok band, so I think you were
just filling a gap before everyone else even saw it.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
There's two sides of that, right, Like rented space is
interesting concept because you have to in some capacities, play
within the rented space that's available to you. Like you know,
you're not going to go and build the next Facebook,
and you're not going to go on Instagram and you're
not going to go and build the next TikTok really,
so you know, companies have to do that to some extent.
But on the flip side of that, what if there
(06:11):
was an asset that you could build, that you could
own that would only grow in value over time for
yourself in that platform we believe to be trade publications
and news, which is where we are.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
That makes sense, and yeah, I mean none of us
are really going to go out and actually build a
platform that we're going to own ourselves, but you know,
diversifying that across everything and making sure that you're spreading
out your word is definitely important. And you talk about
brands owning the conversation, what does that mean to you?
And can you share an example of a brand doing
(06:41):
it really well?
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Yeah, I mean I think it's really injecting themselves in
everything that's happening. From the most simple example but done
so well is do Olingo. I mean, they have a
say on everything that's happening within their niche, within popular culture.
You know, when something happens, they hit right back, you
know when the TikTok's.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
So good at the viral moments, the.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Viral moments, but they're just on it. They have a perspective.
They are tapping into the news. They news Jack every
single day. They make themselves a part of the conversation.
And that's you know, I think that's aspirational. It's like
having that the ability to do that allows you to
really own it.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
Yeah, that makes perfect sense. I love seeing what they're doing.
And I love the way you said they news Jack,
because I never really thought of it like that. They
really do make themselves a part of every news story
and every viral moment.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
I mean, the TikTok thing was perfect. It was like,
you know, the commentator, it was, oh, so you're learning Mandarin?
Now they come on. There's no better response to that.
It so perfectly touches and encapsulates the feeling of the moment,
the news, the trend, and a perfect insertion of themselves
within that conversation.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
Absolutely, I totally agree.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
And there's so much content out there it's hard to
stand out like they're doing. How can smaller or newer
brands break through and really establish themselves as these authorities?
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's of your industry, and
I think, like, you know, let's talk about to a
lingos tough, right, because their B two C their addressable
market does anyone looking to learn a language? But I
think on the B to B side, it's a lot
easier than that, actually, like because the icp is is
a little bit more finite than that. You know, the
conversations are happening in a more niche way. They're happening
in very specific arenas, and inserting yourself within that conversation
(08:22):
isn't as tough. You have to be there. You have
to be on the topics that matter to your customers,
to that vertical to your own company, and you have
to be there in an authentic way. You have to
give others the microphone. And I think, like for a
really long time, companies are really good at talking about
themselves say this pretty often, but they sort of sort
back to product marketing, right. They want to talk about
their value prop, their solutions, what they're doing, their perspective.
(08:46):
But I think it's really much more about allowing your prospect,
customers and the people within the industries that you're looking
to have an impact in give them have the microphone
and talk about the things that matter for them and
allowing to do them and being the platform that supports
them and allows them to do that, and then sharing
those opinions with the rest of the world. You're created community,
you're creating thought leadership, you're creating authority, and you're owning
(09:07):
that topic without having to insert yourself into the conversation
at every turn.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
That's a good point.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
I've seen a lot of people talk about how personal
brands of people at companies are going to be the
new trend for this year, and brands really leaning into it.
So when you have your employees thought leaders it makes
such a difference. But what's a common mistake that you
see brands making when it comes to thought leadership and
what's a simple fix that they can do for that.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
I think it goes back to what I was just saying,
like thought leadership is a well rounded strategy, like anything is,
Like it's never one, it's never firing on one cylinder.
And I think companies often make this mistake when their
laser focused on something is they pick this one, they
pick this topic or this initiative or this go to
market motion being thought leadership and they say, okay, our
lane is founder led growth, founder led thought leadership, and
(09:55):
they put their founder on LinkedIn, and you know they're
getting traction. That's great, but that's so limited in terms
of the scope of what thought leadership actually is. And
you know that one window that becomes saturated if you're
not doing it holistically. And I see brands like, you know,
they go full force on this one thing when you're
missing the scope of like there's a lot of other
things that thought leadership is. Thought leadership is having the
(10:16):
conversation to the right people, you know, whether it be
via podcast or whether it be via you know, a
news strategy and editorial strategy. It's not putting yourself the
helm on the microphone every single time. It's empowering others.
It's to your point. It's allowing your employees to speak
on your behalf. It's having a well rounded, you know,
company wide thought leadership strategy in which the expertise within
(10:37):
your company and the embedded knowledge and the trap value
there almost is allowed to come out and comes out
in a way where people are sharing their expertise on
LinkedIn or on their other social platforms. Like I think
there might needs to be a much more well rounded
vision of like what that looks like. And I think
companies just kind of are always singular and in focus.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Usually where do you see content marketing heading over the
next five years, any big shift so you think we
should prepare for.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
I see it heading in a direction where it does not.
It's not the traditional SEO play that we've seen for
the past ten years. I mean, I don't think that
playbook works anymore. With AI summaries and Gemini updates, I
think playing that game is over, and I think people
are going to find new and creative ways to hijack SEO.
Really think about the adjacent ways that people are sharing content,
(11:25):
are finding your content relationships are going to play a
much larger role in content marketing, timeliness and news will
as well. That's our bet. But I think it's just
going to be a huge shift. I mean, you know,
if you're spending fifty thousand dollars a month on an
SEO agency and it's not working anymore, you know, obviously
things will need to change. And I think we're starting
to see a lot of that market.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
That's totally fair. I think that's a good aspect to
look at.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
And I mean, when you're looking at the shifts in
where things are heading, do you think that LinkedIn is
the next big thing to really be focused on.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
I mean, I think it already, Like I think we're
kind of there. You know, there's already a level of
saturation on LinkedIn, and I feel like if you're just
starting on LinkedIn as a company, like many are, like,
it's good to have that, but I think that there
is already kind of early winners of what that looks like.
So I would suggest that, you know, if you're going
all in on LinkedIn, you look to make the strategy
(12:19):
a little bit more holistic on what that is across
the board, because I think LinkedIn is quite saturated and
you know, Obviously the brand page isn't getting much love,
so that means your founders need to really step up
and start writing and or you know, higher ghost writers
or whatever that looks like. But I think like authenticity
across LinkedIn is really important. I think it's just a
part of a strategy. It's just not the holistic strategy.
(12:41):
So yeah, I mean, I'm a huge believer in LinkedIn.
I definitely don't want to downplay how which I utilize
it and how many amazing things in my career it's
brought me. It's one hundred percent of our inbound business
right now, which is amazing.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
Wow, that's really impressive.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
It's definitely a big part in my strategy. They're all
are other things that I think need to happen to
have a holistic strategy and to outlast you know what
that looks like. Again, you are still playing on that
rented land, so if the algorithm changes, you don't want
to be susceptible to all your eggs in one basket.
I think the versification is key.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
Yeah, I completely agree with that. I mean, when you're
looking at the different platforms, if you had a recommendation
for which ones or how many do you have a
certain strategy would recommend to brands.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
I think that kind of depends on the company and
on the target and on the ICP. There's a lot
of variables. I would say, like, you're never going to
be able to have the resources eternally to go crazy
across every single platform. Now B two C companies, I
would say, that's the only thing you have to do.
You have to do that, like that is your entire world,
and that's like the majority of your marketing budget's going
(13:48):
to go to that because that's the only thing that
can give you organic growth and organic traction. And when
your tam it's everyone or everyone over a certain age,
like your playbook is quite limited. It you know, like
it's either raise a ton of money or you have
insane virality and organic traction and growth across these platforms. So,
you know, B two C B to B is very
(14:09):
different in terms of how you market, how you find
your ICP, and where they live. So you know, it's
just a little bit different depending upon the company.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
That's fair.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
And so you know, speaking of content and you know,
being able to put it on every platform and everywhere.
AI is so huge right now, and it's everywhere, especially
in this content creation. How do you see it balancing
human creativity in building these strong brands, and how do
you recommend that brands embrace AI or be cautious of it?
Speaker 2 (14:37):
Like our company is tech enabled services, right, So we've
built a lot of our infrastructure, a lot of the
things that would take people hours and hours and hours
to do. And what we've done is we've built tools,
and we've built and we've built engines and machines that
allow us to make people more efficient and allow people
to think differently. And I think the combination of creating
(15:00):
tech and utilizing AI to make your human workers more
efficient and more creative and more thoughtful and ease the
percentage of their jobs that can be replicated by machine,
that's the perfect mix. I would say, Like, you know,
it's very obvious to me when people are just using
AI across the board, and you know, we're drowning in
(15:22):
a sea of just like robotic text. So you know,
I think human human emotion and human writing is more
important than ever. But I would say if we can
or companies can get to a place where they're comfortable
enough using tech and using AI to get people to
a place where their jobs are easier or to enhance
their creativity or their productivity will be in a good spot.
(15:44):
I think it's the perfect marriage, you know, between man
and machine or woman in machine. Is is that it's
tech enabled creativity, tech enabled productivity.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
Yeah, And what do you think about everyone's conversations, especially
lately on LinkedIn, of oh, if you do this, you
use an m dash, it's clearly written by AI or
you know, we can tell when you're writing AI.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
What are your thoughts on all of that?
Speaker 2 (16:09):
And I think it's kind of silly. I mean, the
reality is that it's it is very clear in some cases,
like when AI is being written like it's in conclusion,
it's using cliches, it's using very specific language, it's you know.
But but the reality is like if you're using if grammatically,
like it's doing something that people have done for years
and years and years, Like I don't know, I like,
(16:31):
I think those conversations are going to be over in
a week or two, and I think we're just going
to focus on like what sounds human. I mean, it's
very telling when someone's writing a sequence that is just
been written by AI, versus when they're writing something that
might be helped by AI. That's fine, Like you know,
run your text through a prompt and say, refine this
and make it better, and then take it back and
(16:52):
edit it yourself. And you know that's sort of where
you should be. I would say, if you feed it
to the machine, like you know, I've seen people on
LinkedIn where the first is the cats out of the bag,
and I'm like, who speaks like that? And I think
it's just like, can you read that text yourself and
does it sound natural coming from your mouth? And if
it doesn't, don't post it. And I think that should
just be the barometer for how you think about like
(17:14):
what you're utilizing it for and how much you give it.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
That anyway, that's fair. I think there are some that
are very obvious. And then there's the AI outreach and
DMS and oh speak it DMS. I saw your Melissa,
What an awful start to the year.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
I got a big take out of that one.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Oh I laughed out loud. Yeah, that was that was great. Honestly,
that captured my attention. I get so many emails and
so many emails and cold outreach, and that was very human.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
I like, I appreciate the honesty.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
I was like, yeah, I get it.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
That is what I will listen to whatever you're about
the SOMA.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
I read the whole thing. I looked at the report.
I know, like, even if it wasn't completely applicable, it's like,
you know what, you get the benefit of that read
because that was that certainly called my attention that it
was very few things do these days.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
Yeah, that's totally fair. I mean, we're just flooded with
so much, so many dms, so much information that you
really have to stand out.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
And that's one way to do it.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
And you know that goes about being human and you know,
being able to talk to another human.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
So I'm on high conviction on humans talking to other people.
That is my bet for the future.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
Yeah, isn't that a weird trend?
Speaker 1 (18:25):
So what is your advice for startups that want to
become leaders in their industry but are starting from scratch?
Speaker 2 (18:33):
Start thinking about the conversations that you need to play
and role in what can you And I'll say, like
there are two pieces of it, like what should you
have a perspective on? But what should you insert yourself
in where you can give others the ability to have
the perspective where you're just the underlying platform, where you're
the underlying place where that happens. And I think that's it.
It's like, can you get people to talk about the
(18:55):
things they care about? Like that is power? First of all,
people really want to talk. There's way less places to
do it in kind of formality where their opinions are
are being you know, wanted by others, where it's not
just self serving, or they're going out and they're posting
on LinkedIn. So I think if you're able to tap
into that, which is a really human thing, it's like,
(19:15):
how do you give it and provide value to other
people and in essence then create a relationship with them
where you know eventually you could provide value to them
through whatever product you're offering, your thing that you're selling.
And I think it's just like it needs to be
more of a symbiotic relationship. Or it's like the way
that we've treated you know, sales and cold out bound
and now we're making it way worse so they are.
It's just like, how do we go back to what
(19:36):
people really value, which is relationships. I understand your problem.
I want to help you. I want to make sure
that we give you a platform to speak on the
things that matter to you. I care about what matters
to you, Like, we don't really do that anymore. So Yeah,
I would say, like, go back to that, Just go
back to fundamentals of what matters. And I think a
lot of the people that are trying to have that
that hockey stick growth to sending sequences to spray and pray,
(20:01):
it's going to die really hard and fast.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
Yeah, I totally agree.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
I think human connection is going to be so essential
as we're moving into AI and everything that we've got
from that. I mean, AI is going to be such
a good tool to help and finding the right people
to reach and building your brand, but we have to
keep the human part of it.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Yeah, I'm high conviction on things that like are just
bringing people together, like events and dinners and phone calls
and zooms. I believe in those more than I believe
in you know, a ton of crazy outbound that unpersonalized
stuff Like you know, outbound used to work really well
because you were customizing and personalizing a message, you were
(20:44):
doing the research, You acted like a journalist to be
able to even send that email, and the response rates
were really high because it was so customized, and now
we've like bastardized that with AI. So I think it's
like we just have abused the tools that we've been given.
And I think that's not for us. It's natural for
us because we want growth, we want growth really fast.
(21:04):
We have tools now in our arsenal that allow us
to achieve that, and we're abusing them. And I think
like we need to take a step back and think about,
like you've used something too much breaks.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
Yeah, I mean there's something to be said that it's
a tool and not a replacement for the so many
things we're doing. There's so many times that I talk
to people on LinkedIn and dms and they go, oh,
you're a human or oh you're not trying to sell
me something, and I'm like, yeah, I'm just having a conversation.
Speaker 3 (21:29):
We are just networking, Like yeah, imagine that.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
And they're like, oh, I'm not used to talking to people.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
Yeah, yeah, it's wild, it's really wild.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
Well, you've been a part of so much growth and innovation.
What got you so excited for the future of marketing
right now?
Speaker 2 (21:45):
I mean, I am excited about it. That's why I'm
you know, that's why I quit my CMO role to
do it. It's it's kind of like I felt really
really stuck, to be honest, I felt like we were
all just relying on these same playbooks. Everyone's doing the
same things. I talk to marketers all the time, and
they're struggling, Like they are really struggling. I think that
there's just such high pressure and expectations around growth. But
(22:09):
at the same time, budgets are down, they're not what
they were, and there are no new playbooks, there are
no new ways of thinking, and I think we have to,
like we have to figure out creativity again. Obviously, like
I think brand building plays a huge role in that,
but I think, like you can't just keep doing the
same thing over and over and expect it to work.
It's like that's insanity. So like what do you do?
(22:30):
You got to find new avenues. And that's why I'm
excited about what we're doing. I feel like it's disruptive.
I think it's a new way of reframing and thinking
about thought, leadership and sales and all of the motions
that are usually disjointed, and we're bringing those together in
a way that I think shakes up the industry. So
I'm I'm excited about what we're building.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
I'm excited just seeing where you guys are going to grow,
and I think it's a really cool thing that you're
working on. I love that you've shared, you know, practical
advice and some big picture things on where marketing is heading.
For anyone listening who wants to connect with you or
learn more about out lever, where should they go?
Speaker 2 (23:03):
Find me on LinkedIn? I'm very active on LinkedIn. I
respond very quickly to people, real people, really, not an
AI no, no bots, no, but I'm on LinkedIn. I
respond very fast.
Speaker 3 (23:14):
Awesome.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
Well that's perfect, and thank you again for being here.
I'm sure everyone learned a lot and I'm looking forward
to seeing what you do this here.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
Thanks so much, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
That wraps up another episode of Talk Digital to Me,
where we explore the strategies, trends, and innovations shaping the
future of marketing. I hope Melissa's insights on brand authority,
content strategy, and the power of owning the conversation gave
you some fresh ideas on how to rethink your marketing approach.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
The days of relying.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
Solely on SEO social media algorithms and rented platforms are shifting,
and brands that adapt will be the ones that lead.
If you enjoyed this conversation, leave a review on Apple Podcasts,
Share this episode with a friend or colleague, and don't
forget to subscribe on whatever platform you're listening to me
now until next time, keep innovating, keep creating, and don't
(24:06):
just join the conversation, own it.
Speaker 3 (24:09):
See you soon.
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Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!
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