September 24, 2025 • 42 mins
Instructional designers have played an increasingly important role in supporting instruction in all modalities. In this episode, Safary Wa-Mbaleka and Gianina-Estera Petre join us to discuss a new resource describing effective instructional design practices in a global context.
A transcript of this episode and show notes may be found at http://teaforteaching.com.
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(00:00):
Instructional designers have played an increasingly important role in supporting
instruction in all modalities. In this episode, we discuss a new
resource describing effective instructional design practices in a global context.
(00:20):
Thanks for joining us for Tea for Teaching, an informal discussion of
innovative and effective practices in teaching and learning.
This podcast series is hosted by John Kane, an economist...
...and Rebecca Mushtare, a graphic designer......and features guests doing important research
and advocacy work to make higher education more inclusive and supportive of all learners.
(00:51):
Our guests today are Safary Wa-Mbaleka and Gianina-Estera Petre. Safary is an associate
faculty at University of Arizona Global Campus. He has authored and co-authored
more than 60 scholarly journal articles and more than 30 books and book chapters. Gianina
is an Associate Professor at Adventus University of Cernica, Romania. She is the Research Center
(01:13):
Director and Editor-In-Chief of the Journal of Educational Studies. Safary and Gianina
are two of the editors of The Sage Handbook of Higher Education Instructional Design,
which was released in July 2025. Welcome, Gianina and welcome back, Safary.
Thank you. Glad to be back.Thank you.
Today's teas are:... Safary, are you drinking tea?
(01:33):
I'm having water today. The foundation of tea.
Yes. And Ginanina?
Yes. Actually, I like drinking ginger tea. I think two hours ago I had one.
I like tea, but also water.Very nice. Ginger tea is one of
my favorites, too.It's a good choice,
for sure. I have Lady Grey this morning. And I have spring cherry green tea.
(01:58):
So we invited you both here to discuss the Sage Handbook of Higher Education
Instructional Design. Can you tell us about the origin story of this book?
Actually, I think, John and Rebecca, you're part of the origin of this book, because when
we had another podcast last year, you asked me the question, so what's next? And I said, I think we
(02:20):
need to look into one of the dimensions and try to dig deeper into that. And as I was looking around,
I quickly realized that instructional design is a big deal. And so that's how it started. I talked
to Gianina. I talked to two other colleagues who are co-editors, and we all agreed that,
yeah, it was time to have a book on instructional design and specifically for higher education.
(02:44):
For me, I just joined the team, a little bit late, compared with the three other colleagues. And what
can I say? I collaborated in many projects with Safary, and from this collaboration,
when he told me about this project, I said, “Wow, I really want to participate. I really want to be
involved in this. I think it's a need.” And you know how it is, the natural way of appearing,
(03:09):
the project's appearing. You are working on something, and suddenly another idea appears,
and you are saying, “Oh, we need to do this.” So I was very happy to be involved in this
project wih Safary and the other colleagues.And this is a rather large project. This volume
has 50 chapters organized into seven sections. Could you give us a brief overview of the
(03:31):
types of topics covered in each section, and maybe with a few topic examples?
As you mentioned, 50 chapters organized into seven sections. I will give some titles. For example,
section one is about general foundations of higher education instructional design. Here is
the introduction of what instructional design is. what instructional designers do, understanding and
(03:54):
addressing common instructional design challenges and so on. The second section is theoretical
foundation of instructional design. Here we have ideas or topics about historical foundations,
instructional design theories, instructional design models and other. Section three,
it's about practical foundations of higher education instructional design. And here
(04:18):
we have topics about learner needs and analysis, keeping teaching in mind while designing classes,
addressing issues of inclusion. I am just selecting some topics. Section four,
it's higher education instructional design at the course level. And here we have exactly the topics,
(04:38):
how to design standards, the goal, the syllabus, how to design an online course, flipped class,
hybrid class, more micro credential courses and other topics here. With section five,
higher education instructional design and the curriculum. And here we discuss about
quality assurance, partnership between subject matter experts and instructional designers,
(05:02):
mobile learning, designing content for learners with disabilities and other topics. Section six,
it's about technology in higher education instructional design. Hot topic, no? Using
technology when designing instruction and when conducting instruction. Here in Section six,
(05:23):
we have also about artificial intelligence, how to integrate artificial intelligence in teaching
and learning, and the last one, research in higher education instructional design, with the focus on
research trends in higher education instructional design, conducting research in higher education
and instructional design, investigating learners experience and so on. So a lot of topics,
(05:49):
interesting and very actual, I would say.Yeah, and thank you so much, Gianina for this
summary. You will see that it is true that we have a number of textbooks on instructional design,
but as an instructional designer myself, I've been in instructional design for many years,
there was always something missing. If it is the leaders who design the textbook, it tends to be
(06:10):
mainly leadership. If it's the IT people, it tends to be technical. If they're just the instructional
designers, it's just the instructional design part. But as you can see on this one, we have
a variety of all the different stakeholders, the people who are involved in instructional design,
from leadership to technology to the curriculum, to many other things, evaluation, assessments,
(06:33):
we tried to capture as many things as possible, so that you have one resource that captures
most of what is needed in instructional design, especially in higher education.
And you brought in a lot of voices into this volume. How did you select
the contributors for this project.You know, I think that it started with
the selection of the focal editors, because the selection of the co-editors was very strategic,
(07:00):
making sure that we're getting people who have a lot of connections in the field of instructional
design. The other two who are not with us on this podcast are from University of Central Florida
Baiyun and Amee, who were my colleagues before, actually I worked together in the same department,
so they have a large network. And we said, “Okay, we need to look outside the United States,
(07:23):
because we don't want this to be just the United States.” And quickly I thought about Gianina,
and she has a large network in Europe. And so with the four of us together, and each one
having our own network, we're able to quickly put together a group of contributors trying to make
it as diverse as possible. So we have contributors from many different countries, from North America,
(07:46):
Central America, Latin America, Europe, Africa, Australia, I think New Zealand and Asia,
of course, we covered almost the whole world. One of the things that I really appreciate about
this particular volume. in your past work, too, is this international perspective. And not just
because you have a wide variety of authors representing a wide variety of perspectives,
(08:07):
but that a lot of the chapters are co-authored by folks of different perspectives. Can you talk
a little bit about those decisions?Gianina, do you want to go first?
Yes, you know, because we are connected, the editors are so connected and involved in so
many projects, research projects, collaboration projects, it's not very difficult to have a group
(08:28):
to connect with of experts, of course, in this field, and also inviting those experts, they have
also connections, and they invited other experts in the field. So we tried to motivate them to
work by teams, because this different perspective brings a lot of good work, a proper view, a proper
(08:51):
image on the topic. So because we are people of collaboration, and we love collaborating, it was
not so difficult to work by groups. For example, I had a chapter with three other colleagues, one was
for Valencia University, Spain, and the other two were from Montemorelos University, Mexico. So this
(09:13):
diversity, I think it's a very positive and strong point in the book, because different perspectives
can bring rich approaches in the topic.Yeah, and in my case, and I agree with Gianina
actually, collaboration brings synergy that you didn't get from just a one-sided thing. And this
is from the different projects that I've had with Sage. This is my third one with the handbooks. I
(09:38):
have come to realize that this is actually the strength that we bring into Sage. I have been
privileged to work on three continents, and I see that there are many different perspectives, and
there are experts everywhere in the world, and not just in one place, as much as I am pro America,
because this is where I am, and this is where I study, and this where I've spent many of my career
(09:59):
years, but there's just a lot of knowledge out there. And I think this is the strength that we
get from collaborating. When you have people from the Middle East contributing, people from Europe,
from Africa, from Asia, from Asia Pacific, you're getting multiple perspectives. Sometimes I read
some of the manuscripts, some of the drafts people have submitted. I never thought about that, or we
have never addressed that here in the West. And so from the conferences I've had with other people,
(10:26):
other projects have worked together, connections like Rebecca, I think you were one of the
contributors. I don't know how we got connected, if it was from the podcast or something. And
some of the people, my students now, who know other people, you find that the final product
is very solid. It's much richer because it represents the global perspective, because
(10:47):
the field of instructional design is not only one sided, it's everybody's involved in it.
What is the target audience of this book? Is it designed primarily for instructional designers as
a resource? Is it designed for faculty to see how instructional designers can assist them? Or is it
designed for administrators to better understand the role that instructional designers play?
(11:07):
The book is for all the mentioned and for the others also. So we have in the list of the
target population, let's say this or audience. We have instructional designer, but also university
students, online education leaders, researchers, faculty, team leaders, support personnel. So it's
(11:28):
a variety of target audience here, and I think based on my experience during this process,
from the beginning to the publication moment, I could connect with all these categories. I discuss
with them. I presented the book also in Romania and with other researchers and administrators I
collaborate with. So I could see that it's a need, and they were waiting the book to be published
(11:55):
so that they have this global perspective on instructional design in higher education.
And while we focus primarily on that, and we kept that in mind, we made sure that all the
contributors kept this audience in mind. We understand that there's a lot there that can
be used in the industry, a lot of information. For example, we have instructional design models
(12:15):
there, quality assurance in instructional design. These are things that can be used even K through
12. But we didn't want to claim that we're writing it for all those other places, because in case
we missed something that is very much relevant to them, then we wouldn't want to be accountable for
that. But it can be expanded to anybody really who is interested in instructional design or learning
(12:37):
instructional design, or applying instructional design or doing research in instructional
design. They can definitely do that.I can see it as a really helpful guide for
new faculty who don't have experience designing their instruction, because it is so comprehensive
and it allows you to kind of dip into spaces that you may be less familiar with. Maybe there's areas
(12:59):
that you are familiar with, but there's other topics that maybe you want to explore more,
like AI or other topics like different models or different ways to structure a course. So
you each co-authored or authored chapters in this book. Can you tell us a little bit
about your contributions to this volume?I contributed to quite a number of chapters,
obviously chapter one and the last chapter. I always contribute to that If I'm a co-editor,
(13:23):
I always love that, because it's like this where we're going, and this what we have learned. I like
that. So the first chapter and last chapter, that's what it is. But the two chapters that
I really contributed to substantively, one is on instructional design models. I like instructional
design models. I don't know why. The first book I used on instructional models, textbook when I
(13:48):
was doing PhD in instructional design was, I think, Gustavson, 2002, that's old now.
And when I was going through those instructional design models, I was just amazed. It's like,
how did they come up with this? And so we have one chapter on instructional design models, just
a synthesis to have things in one place. I know that books that are just books for instruction
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design models, but this is like a synopsis of 10 or more designs, something like that, the most
practical ones that people can use. Anybody who is new to instruction design can easily follow
and we tell them, here are the strengths of each design, here are the weaknesses, and you can use
them in this and this area. So I co-authored that with a gentleman from Chicago. actually. I don't
(14:34):
even remember how I got to know him. We have never met, but we have collaborated like we have known
each other forever, but we just got to know each other on this project. And he's an instructional
designer in one of the universities there, and so he was equally excited about instruction design,
and he teaches instruction design. The other chapter that I really, really loved,
and I contributed alone because I just wanted to put in my own concepts of quality assurance in
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instructional design. I basically took the same things that people have, but presented them in a
different perspective and integrated research in that chapter as well, which tends to be left out
when you're talking about quality assurance. People talk more about the strategies to use,
but not so much emphasizing the research aspect of that. And so I was able to create an acronym
(15:25):
for that to present the different phases that have to happen. And for each phase,
I have questions that people have to ask to assess that specific dimension of instructional design,
and it's much more comprehensive, not just at the course level, but in the whole instructional
design process. I contributed to others, but at a minimal level, but those two are the ones that
(15:47):
I really got carried away with, because it's just my passion. I love instructional design, step by
step and the instructional design models, and also to make sure that the quality is taken care of.
So while we have quite a few instructional designers in our audience, we believe,
a lot of people in the audience are faculty who may not be familiar with instructional design
(16:08):
models. Could you just talk a little bit about some of your favorite instructional design models,
the ones that you use, just so that people who may not be as familiar get a feel for them.
Well, all of us, we know this elusive ADDIE model. You know that is kind of the leader, even if,
when you want to go around it, you'll find that you'll always find some dimensions of that in
(16:29):
whatever other people come up with. We have rapid instruction design model that is also out there.
We have spiral designs, those who just feel like you go in circular ways. And looking at the
different models, I have come to realize that some look at it as strategies, while others look at
instruction design models are more into processes and the ones that I like the least, they look at
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it primarily as a philosophical or theoretical thing, which I prefer not to go from that
perspective. If we talk about instruction design models, I want things step by step, things that
I can easily find in what other people did.So what I'm hearing you say is a lot of these
models are really actionable. So if someone is getting started in designing their own course,
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they can follow a process. And there's these different processes folks can follow.
Yes.…as a way to develop their course.
Definitely, and for me, if it is not that user friendly, that people can follow step by step,
then there's an issue with that instruction design model, because we are going to introduce these
to people who are new to the field, we don't want them struggling: “Okay, how do I implement this?”
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They should be able to read and understand most of what is being said and be able to apply that.
The other chapter you mentioned focused on quality assurance. You mentioned that you've
presented some research there, but is there any particular quality assurance technique that
you use, or that you encourage people to use?I wouldn't say that I have one specific technique.
What I have done in that chapter, I created the different phases of instructional design,
(18:07):
somewhere between five to seven phases, and each phase, I have the specific elements that have to
be taken care of. So I created a table that shows the different phases and each phase exactly what
needs to be taken care of. It's a long list. It's a long list, but that makes it very practical,
so that anybody who is still new to instruction design can follow, and once they have addressed
(18:30):
all those steps, they can move to the next phase and easily address what is happening.
And how about your chapters. Gianina?Of course, I contributed to the first chapter
and the last one with Safary, and I met the other colleagues, but I wrote, as mentioned,
one chapter with three other colleagues, one from Valencia University and the other two from Mexico,
(18:52):
on hybrid class, how to design a hybrid class. And because all four, we are excited about blending
face to face and the online instruction, we focus on different aspects on how to design,
and we provided specific examples how to use different tools, how to integrate them
(19:12):
in instruction. And I wrote a chapter by myself, so it was about addressing issues of inclusion in
instructional design. And in this chapter, I would say that it was blending my model,
the model I developed during my PhD thesis, the model just saying a few words in between. So I
(19:32):
am coming from a former communist country, so in my country, in Romania, only in the last years,
we are speaking about cooperative learning and how to train future teachers to use cooperative
learning. So during my PhD studies, I developed a model named CoLearnItt, cooperative learning for
initial teacher training. And in this chapter, I'm presenting my model blended with the UDL
(19:57):
principles. So it seems that all the components of the model are very well connected with the
UDL. So I am presenting with specific examples from my classes, because in the last years,
I conducted action research in my inclusive education class. So during the years,
I came up with different action plans and models. So I improved them year after year. And in this
(20:23):
chapter, I'm presenting the last version of my model. So I'm very excited because it's very
practical and each professor can implement in his teaching when designing the class,
these elements from the CoLearnItt model and UDL principles. And this is very exciting for me.
Let's go back to the first chapter you referred to on hybrid learning. This is
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an area where which I think is probably underused given the meta-analyses that
suggest that it's often more effective than either face-to-face or purely asynchronous
or online learning. What are some things though, that faculty who first engage in hybrid learning
might do wrong? What are some common errors that perhaps you'd like to encourage people
not to do when designing a hybrid course?From the readings and the research I conducted,
(21:11):
I could identify that is not a balanced way between the face-to-face and synchronous or
asynchronous part. So in my opinion, it should be a training before designing such a class,
because it's not easy. So it's about how to use technology, and not all of the teachers
(21:31):
are used to the new technology. It's about how to create the content, how to organize the content,
how much of the content should be explored before the class, in a flip class format, and how much
in the class, in the physical class, how to organize or to design the assessment, because
it's important to have part in online, synchronous or asynchronous, and also in face to face. So all
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these aspects should be in a balanced way, introduced in a hybrid class. And I think
the teacher should be trained in doing this, because it's not an easy task, let's be honest,
and also the technology. How do you use what kind of platforms so that they should be user friendly
and easy to access, easy to understand and so on, how to explain your students how to use
(22:20):
the platform, how to respond to the assessment tasks. So all this should be in a balanced and
very organized way. And yes, the teacher should be trained before organizing such a class.
And if I may add to that, the other challenge that personally, I have seen with people who
are not trained. Training is very, very important. The challenge has been people over loading their
(22:44):
students, because here, let's say this started as a face-to-face class. They have 100% of face to
face, and then they have another 50% online, and so students are overwhelmed with a lot of work.
That course and a half phenomenon that people often talk about with hybrid courses
when people are first designing them. It's a problem for both for the students and
(23:05):
for the faculty, right?Yeah, yeah, true.
Can you talk a little bit about your inclusive model and share some insights that folks might
include in their classrooms to make their classrooms and their courses more inclusive?
In the model I developed each component… let me list the components…. so it's about using the
(23:25):
training model of Showers, because only following a specific steps the students you are preparing
to be teachers can learn how to apply, from the training to the class, everything. It's about,
how to design the classroom management so that it's inclusive, how to organize your
(23:46):
interactive lecturing so that address each type of the students you have in the class,
how to evaluate the students, how to design, how to offer or to give expert feedback,
so that mastery learning takes place in that class. Also how to use dimensions of learning to
build step by step this inclusive class, because we have such a diversity in our classes today,
(24:11):
and we need to be so creative and to bring so much diversity in our teaching, so that each
one of them can be touched by our teaching, to be motivated by our teaching. So all these
components are related to the three directions in UDL, how to diversify the teaching methods,
so that the students can learn how to diversify your evaluation, your assessment,
(24:36):
so that each one of them can respond in his or her own way due to the diversity that I mentioned, and
how to engage them in the classroom. So in these three directions, I think my model is very well
connected with the UDL principles. And I showed in the chapter how each component or how each
(24:57):
part of the component, it's very developed. So I cannot just say in a few words the entire model,
but I can show with specific examples from the classroom and from my research, how the CoLearnItt
model is connected with UDL principles. It's really nice. You know, for me, it's very exciting
to achieve this point with my model, because I don't know, in future, maybe something new will
(25:22):
appear. Because I'm continuing with the research, I am conducting action research in each class,
so after each class, something new comes up.Probably one of the best parts about working
on a project like this is getting to learn a whole swath of new things.
And that's also one of the benefits and challenges of running a podcast. We get so
many good ideas from our guests that we try to implement, perhaps sometimes too many of them,
(25:45):
and it can be a bit overwhelming at times. We also have another co-author of one of the
chapters… Rebecca, could you talk a little bit about your contribution to the book?
Sure, I had the honor of working on a chapter about designing for students with disabilities,
which is something that is certainly dear to my heart. As listeners of our podcast know,
(26:06):
and I think I got to co-author with a colleague that, Gianina, I think you maybe had recommended
that I write with Chip and so it was really wonderful to work with a colleague from Romania,
who I had not met before. And one of the things that we explored in this chapter is some of
the digital accessibility standards, the web content accessibility guidelines in combination
(26:29):
with UDL or Universal Design for Learning and TILT, Transparency in Learning and Teaching,
and how there are some really interesting synergies and overlaps between these three
models and strategies, but also where they differ, and how those differences and implementing some of
those other pieces actually really help support a variety of different kinds of students with a
(26:51):
variety of different kinds of needs and different kinds of technology that they
might be using to access information. So it was really fun to work on this particular chapter,
to explore the different kinds of things that we often recommend, but also like you Gianina,
to like put them lined up next to each other and see where some of those overlaps are,
and to really make those explicit, so that it also made the differences very explicit.
(27:14):
And how did you connect TILT with digital accessibility?
Well, you know, one of the most important things is not necessarily the technical standard around
digital but all of our digital content needs to be transparent in the way we're organizing it. And
there is a WCAG, or a web content accessibility guideline that really points the idea of like
clear language and TILT is all about clarity and transparency. So it was a way to kind of bring
(27:37):
that to life, I think, in a much more obvious way, and really provide steps that someone could
take to implement that into their coursework. So there was a lot of examples that are like that,
where there's one here that seems like something I need to do, but maybe it's in a language that
doesn't make a lot of sense to a teacher, but then you bring in another model that talks
about that same kind of concept or content in a different way, that can be really helpful.
(28:02):
Very good. So one of the things that
I know is covered in this really comprehensive volume is assessment of instructional design,
but we haven't really talked about that in as much detail. Can you share a little bit of insight of
what is captured in this volume on that topic?Assessment has always been a challenging topic,
and from this volume, it became clear that it's not just a matter of strategy, it's not just
(28:27):
a matter of technology. It has a whole lot of things related to the philosophy of education,
cultural background of the education setting, the historical background, the political background.
So these are things that we never really thought about. Because, like, as far as I'm concerned,
when I look at assessment, immediately I put on my American lenses. I look at it from
(28:51):
that perspective. But other people, it's like, remember this place where I was in a specific
country in Africa, where assessment is about policing and making sure that students struggle,
students suffer. So students who get an A, it's like it's a fight between the students and the
(29:11):
faculty. So when I found myself in that specific country, my first few months, I was struggling
because it was an expectation on me that I should assess students from that perspective. But I said:
“No, assessment for me is to help students learn and make their learning effective and efficient.
And so if I see that there's something that's not working, how can I support the student better?”
(29:35):
But no. So there was a tension between my philosophy of assessment, of learning and
assessment, and what was being expected from me. And so you'll find that when we are dealing with
assessments and instructional design, you'll find that the context where the assessment is
going to take place has other elements that have to be taken into consideration. We cannot have
(29:56):
universal principles that everybody will abide with. You will always find variations based on
specific context with the specific countries’ specific culture and maybe languages as well.
I can imagine that being a challenge, given all the variety in the audience that you're writing
for, given the different histories of higher education and the role of higher education
(30:19):
and the traditions of higher education. One other issue, though, related to assessment,
that I think we all wonder about, especially in forms of online assessment is AI, and you
do have some information on AI in the book. Do you have any recommendations for people who are
teaching in terms of being able to adequately assess work when students might perhaps have
(30:41):
access to a wide variety of AI platforms that can respond to many different types of assessments?
Actually, I listened some presentation of some experts in AI, and I understood that we should not
be afraid of AI, but we should learn how to use it properly in our classes. So regarding assessment,
(31:01):
let's say that in Romania, because of the background, as a former communist country,
we are not so how to say attached, for example, to formative evaluation. So we are focused on
summative evaluation. And sometimes this is a big issue, because our students are learning
just for grades, not all of them, some of them, of course, based on what this expert was presenting,
(31:25):
that we should not be afraid of AI, but learning how to use it, I was thinking, why not inviting
some experts in AI in my university and training our teachers how to use AI, not only to evaluate,
to assess, but also to teach, to present and to create content to help students to understand
(31:46):
how to use it in an ethical manner. And yes, I connected with some experts from Portugal,
and they will come probably in March, April next year, to train us on how to use AI. So
I think it's not anymore that moment to just to be scared about AI, but just addressing properly,
because it's the reality. So why not teach our students how to use it in an ethical manner?
(32:10):
And I think many things can be created and time saved with the use of AI, but in a proper way,
of course, and also assessment, I think the teachers very fast, can identify if the homework
is done with AI or by the student, if you know your students, of course, if you have 200 or 300
(32:31):
students, it's very difficult. In my university, because we don't have so many students, it's a
small university, we can, in a moment, identify that this is not the voice of my students. These
are not the words of my students. So it's not difficult. But go back to my first idea, why not
collaborating with AI in an ethical manner?So one of the other topics that's covered in
(32:55):
such a comprehensive volume…. we can't emphasize how comprehensive it actually is… is leadership.
Can you talk a little bit about the role leadership plays in instructional design?
I was so glad that we were able to include at least one whole chapter on leadership in
instructional design, for many different reasons. Number one, when those who are with online, but
(33:16):
this volume covers both online and face to face, when people want to go deep into instructional
design, they want to have instructional design team or instructional design department,
usually they will just try to identify somebody who is an IT, because in their mind, instructional
design means somebody who's good with the computers, which is not true. I mean, yes,
(33:39):
you know some of the computers, but instructional design is not primarily computers. It's really
about thinking and doing things, planning instruction, and that's basically what it is.
And so because of this, we do not really have a lot of leaders who are trained as
instructional design leaders. People just grow into instructional leadership, but not
(34:01):
really train. And so you find that if somebody didn't go through like a leadership training,
or they didn't study instructional design, because they may be instructional design team leader
without actually having done extensive training on instruction design, you'll find that there's
always a disconnect between the instructional design team and the leader, that's one side,
(34:24):
somebody who can provide the vision, the mission and design the whole department,
provide the leadership for the whole department and connect that to the university. It has to be
somebody who understands very well instructional design but also knows how to deal with higher
administration, because the instructional design leader is not necessarily the president of the
(34:45):
college or the university. And so how do they do this? That chapter covers that extensively and is
written by people who have extensive knowledge and expertise in the area. The other aspect of this,
and I'm going to speak now from the online education perspective. I've been in universities
where online education was being integrated at the beginning. I've been twice director of
(35:10):
online education to start the department of online education. And the common challenge has always
been, “Oh, since you have a computer and you have internet connection, and we have online library,
okay, you don't need anything, you just do everything, and we'll have online education.”
The administrators do not understand that this is a whole different thing. We need a team, we need a
(35:34):
budget. We need resources, and this is something that they have, if they want to go into online
education, they will have to invest significant money into this. And so the chapter helps with
that. If you want to start an instructional design team, what needs to be in place? How
do you relate with the top administration to make sure you get the buy in and the support
(35:57):
that is needed to lead your instructional design team? What are the challenges? How do you fund
resources? How do you connect? How do you deal with things when you have limited resources,
because that tends to be a challenge, especially when the department is new. What kind of personnel
do you want to have on board when you have your instructional design team? How do you
establish the standards, the policies? All these are things that have to be dealt with
(36:20):
when you are a leader of instructional design.And as the role of instructional designers has
become much more developed and much more extensive in terms of how they're used,
that's an important point, and it sounds like that's an important chapter
too for potential leaders to be looking at.So we always wrap up by asking, what's next?
Many things are next, are coming. One of the projects I finished, it's The Alphabet of
(36:46):
Values. It's a book for teachers, for parents, and for kids. And next week, on Wednesday,
is the launch of the book here in Romania. I'm very excited, because the book, it's with the
contribution. I'm the editor and the one who designed the pedagogical part with strategies,
methods, for children, for parents, and for teachers. But 26 authors from around the world,
(37:14):
with MA and PhD in education, business and public health, wrote the stories. So all the continents
are covered. And the beauty of this book is that it's inclusive, has different aspects. It's also
interconnected with other fields, with geography, history, languages, religion, and others, and it's
(37:36):
very practical. The illustrations are done by a specialist, by an expert or professional in this
field, and I'm very happy that it was published, I think three or four weeks ago, and the next week
is the launch of this and also another book I'm sending in two weeks to print. It's qualitative
research, a practical guide for early career researchers, also with the contribution of
(38:01):
different experts, researchers around the world. And I really hope that it was more for Romania,
because we still believe that qualitative research is not so important, but step by step, we can show
that has its place, and it's very relevant in many fields. So printing, publishing in English,
(38:21):
of course, I will translate it into Romanian language. So I am very excited about this,
and also about our next year international conference, Safary participated. He was two
years ago, the keynote speaker, but next year, we have competing perspectives in the AI age.
This is the theme, so it's very interesting. And these are my future projects, only a few of them,
(38:47):
because we are involved in many projects. But I'm happy because two of these are done.
I love that you are supporting learners and educators of a wide variety of ages and education
settings and moments in their career.When I come back from my PhD studies,
I studied in the Philippines. By the way, Safary was one of the best teachers I had there, and we
(39:13):
continued, as you can see, to collaborate since I came back. I wanted to help the
education system here in Romania, because we are making small steps towards Western
approaches, but I want to contribute to this development, and I'm very happy to do this.
How about you, Safary?You know, writing is my addiction,
(39:33):
and Gianina knows this, because ever since I met her, I don't know if it was 2016,
somewhere around there, when we first met, I've always written, and for the first time,
last March, after I published my recent book on qualitative research, I said, I'm going to
take a break until October this year. So I'm on break. I have not been writing. It has been hard.
(39:54):
It's been very hard because I have so many ideas that are popping up in the head. I said, “No, no,
I'm taking a break until October.” So in October, of course, I have a few ideas that are already in
mind. I'm thinking of going back to qualitative research, because the first handbook I published
was on qualitative research in Asian context. Then there was these two for higher education. And so
(40:17):
I want to go back to qualitative research and probably create a textbook for quality research
designs, because I see that a number of people are struggling with that. This is not going to be a
handbook. It will be just a textbook, probably 200 pages and that’s not not too long, just to
guide people to distinguish between the different designs, so that they don't confuse that. I tend
(40:39):
to be a little bit of purist as far as qualitative research is concerned. So I want things to be done
right. You know, the structural design mindset is still influencing my other things that I do. So
that's the plan I have in the near future.So although taking a break from writing,
the mind is not taking a break. It’s not, but at least I get time to
(41:01):
relax and oh, well, not so much. Gianina and I have a conference next week at a qualitative
research conference starting on Monday, so Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday. Again, it's
covering different countries, but it's a lot less thinking than when you're leading a handbook.
Well, thank you. It's great to hear from you, and it's great to hear about this project and
(41:21):
your future plans.Thank you.
Thank you so much for inviting us. It's been a great privilege to be back on the podcast.
Yeah, thanks for joining us.If you've enjoyed this podcast,
please subscribe and leave a review on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast service.
(41:45):
To continue the conversation, join us on our Tea for Teaching Facebook page.
You can find show notes, transcripts and other materials on teaforteaching.com.
Music by Michael Gary Brewer. Editing assistance provided by Madison Lee.
Instructional designers have played an increasingly important role in supporting
instruction in all modalities. In this episode, we discuss a new
resource describing effective instructional design practices in a global context.
(00:20):
Thanks for joining us for Tea for Teaching, an informal discussion of
innovative and effective practices in teaching and learning.
This podcast series is hosted by John Kane, an economist...
...and Rebecca Mushtare, a graphic designer......and features guests doing important research
and advocacy work to make higher education more inclusive and supportive of all learners.
(00:51):
Our guests today are Safary Wa-Mbaleka and Gianina-Estera Petre. Safary is an associate
faculty at University of Arizona Global Campus. He has authored and co-authored
more than 60 scholarly journal articles and more than 30 books and book chapters. Gianina
is an Associate Professor at Adventus University of Cernica, Romania. She is the Research Center
(01:13):
Director and Editor-In-Chief of the Journal of Educational Studies. Safary and Gianina
are two of the editors of The Sage Handbook of Higher Education Instructional Design,
which was released in July 2025. Welcome, Gianina and welcome back, Safary.
Thank you. Glad to be back.Thank you.
Today's teas are:... Safary, are you drinking tea?
(01:33):
I'm having water today. The foundation of tea.
Yes. And Ginanina?
Yes. Actually, I like drinking ginger tea. I think two hours ago I had one.
I like tea, but also water.Very nice. Ginger tea is one of
my favorites, too.It's a good choice,
for sure. I have Lady Grey this morning. And I have spring cherry green tea.
(01:58):
So we invited you both here to discuss the Sage Handbook of Higher Education
Instructional Design. Can you tell us about the origin story of this book?
Actually, I think, John and Rebecca, you're part of the origin of this book, because when
we had another podcast last year, you asked me the question, so what's next? And I said, I think we
(02:20):
need to look into one of the dimensions and try to dig deeper into that. And as I was looking around,
I quickly realized that instructional design is a big deal. And so that's how it started. I talked
to Gianina. I talked to two other colleagues who are co-editors, and we all agreed that,
yeah, it was time to have a book on instructional design and specifically for higher education.
(02:44):
For me, I just joined the team, a little bit late, compared with the three other colleagues. And what
can I say? I collaborated in many projects with Safary, and from this collaboration,
when he told me about this project, I said, “Wow, I really want to participate. I really want to be
involved in this. I think it's a need.” And you know how it is, the natural way of appearing,
(03:09):
the project's appearing. You are working on something, and suddenly another idea appears,
and you are saying, “Oh, we need to do this.” So I was very happy to be involved in this
project wih Safary and the other colleagues.And this is a rather large project. This volume
has 50 chapters organized into seven sections. Could you give us a brief overview of the
(03:31):
types of topics covered in each section, and maybe with a few topic examples?
As you mentioned, 50 chapters organized into seven sections. I will give some titles. For example,
section one is about general foundations of higher education instructional design. Here is
the introduction of what instructional design is. what instructional designers do, understanding and
(03:54):
addressing common instructional design challenges and so on. The second section is theoretical
foundation of instructional design. Here we have ideas or topics about historical foundations,
instructional design theories, instructional design models and other. Section three,
it's about practical foundations of higher education instructional design. And here
(04:18):
we have topics about learner needs and analysis, keeping teaching in mind while designing classes,
addressing issues of inclusion. I am just selecting some topics. Section four,
it's higher education instructional design at the course level. And here we have exactly the topics,
(04:38):
how to design standards, the goal, the syllabus, how to design an online course, flipped class,
hybrid class, more micro credential courses and other topics here. With section five,
higher education instructional design and the curriculum. And here we discuss about
quality assurance, partnership between subject matter experts and instructional designers,
(05:02):
mobile learning, designing content for learners with disabilities and other topics. Section six,
it's about technology in higher education instructional design. Hot topic, no? Using
technology when designing instruction and when conducting instruction. Here in Section six,
(05:23):
we have also about artificial intelligence, how to integrate artificial intelligence in teaching
and learning, and the last one, research in higher education instructional design, with the focus on
research trends in higher education instructional design, conducting research in higher education
and instructional design, investigating learners experience and so on. So a lot of topics,
(05:49):
interesting and very actual, I would say.Yeah, and thank you so much, Gianina for this
summary. You will see that it is true that we have a number of textbooks on instructional design,
but as an instructional designer myself, I've been in instructional design for many years,
there was always something missing. If it is the leaders who design the textbook, it tends to be
(06:10):
mainly leadership. If it's the IT people, it tends to be technical. If they're just the instructional
designers, it's just the instructional design part. But as you can see on this one, we have
a variety of all the different stakeholders, the people who are involved in instructional design,
from leadership to technology to the curriculum, to many other things, evaluation, assessments,
(06:33):
we tried to capture as many things as possible, so that you have one resource that captures
most of what is needed in instructional design, especially in higher education.
And you brought in a lot of voices into this volume. How did you select
the contributors for this project.You know, I think that it started with
the selection of the focal editors, because the selection of the co-editors was very strategic,
(07:00):
making sure that we're getting people who have a lot of connections in the field of instructional
design. The other two who are not with us on this podcast are from University of Central Florida
Baiyun and Amee, who were my colleagues before, actually I worked together in the same department,
so they have a large network. And we said, “Okay, we need to look outside the United States,
(07:23):
because we don't want this to be just the United States.” And quickly I thought about Gianina,
and she has a large network in Europe. And so with the four of us together, and each one
having our own network, we're able to quickly put together a group of contributors trying to make
it as diverse as possible. So we have contributors from many different countries, from North America,
(07:46):
Central America, Latin America, Europe, Africa, Australia, I think New Zealand and Asia,
of course, we covered almost the whole world. One of the things that I really appreciate about
this particular volume. in your past work, too, is this international perspective. And not just
because you have a wide variety of authors representing a wide variety of perspectives,
(08:07):
but that a lot of the chapters are co-authored by folks of different perspectives. Can you talk
a little bit about those decisions?Gianina, do you want to go first?
Yes, you know, because we are connected, the editors are so connected and involved in so
many projects, research projects, collaboration projects, it's not very difficult to have a group
(08:28):
to connect with of experts, of course, in this field, and also inviting those experts, they have
also connections, and they invited other experts in the field. So we tried to motivate them to
work by teams, because this different perspective brings a lot of good work, a proper view, a proper
(08:51):
image on the topic. So because we are people of collaboration, and we love collaborating, it was
not so difficult to work by groups. For example, I had a chapter with three other colleagues, one was
for Valencia University, Spain, and the other two were from Montemorelos University, Mexico. So this
(09:13):
diversity, I think it's a very positive and strong point in the book, because different perspectives
can bring rich approaches in the topic.Yeah, and in my case, and I agree with Gianina
actually, collaboration brings synergy that you didn't get from just a one-sided thing. And this
is from the different projects that I've had with Sage. This is my third one with the handbooks. I
(09:38):
have come to realize that this is actually the strength that we bring into Sage. I have been
privileged to work on three continents, and I see that there are many different perspectives, and
there are experts everywhere in the world, and not just in one place, as much as I am pro America,
because this is where I am, and this is where I study, and this where I've spent many of my career
(09:59):
years, but there's just a lot of knowledge out there. And I think this is the strength that we
get from collaborating. When you have people from the Middle East contributing, people from Europe,
from Africa, from Asia, from Asia Pacific, you're getting multiple perspectives. Sometimes I read
some of the manuscripts, some of the drafts people have submitted. I never thought about that, or we
have never addressed that here in the West. And so from the conferences I've had with other people,
(10:26):
other projects have worked together, connections like Rebecca, I think you were one of the
contributors. I don't know how we got connected, if it was from the podcast or something. And
some of the people, my students now, who know other people, you find that the final product
is very solid. It's much richer because it represents the global perspective, because
(10:47):
the field of instructional design is not only one sided, it's everybody's involved in it.
What is the target audience of this book? Is it designed primarily for instructional designers as
a resource? Is it designed for faculty to see how instructional designers can assist them? Or is it
designed for administrators to better understand the role that instructional designers play?
(11:07):
The book is for all the mentioned and for the others also. So we have in the list of the
target population, let's say this or audience. We have instructional designer, but also university
students, online education leaders, researchers, faculty, team leaders, support personnel. So it's
(11:28):
a variety of target audience here, and I think based on my experience during this process,
from the beginning to the publication moment, I could connect with all these categories. I discuss
with them. I presented the book also in Romania and with other researchers and administrators I
collaborate with. So I could see that it's a need, and they were waiting the book to be published
(11:55):
so that they have this global perspective on instructional design in higher education.
And while we focus primarily on that, and we kept that in mind, we made sure that all the
contributors kept this audience in mind. We understand that there's a lot there that can
be used in the industry, a lot of information. For example, we have instructional design models
(12:15):
there, quality assurance in instructional design. These are things that can be used even K through
12. But we didn't want to claim that we're writing it for all those other places, because in case
we missed something that is very much relevant to them, then we wouldn't want to be accountable for
that. But it can be expanded to anybody really who is interested in instructional design or learning
(12:37):
instructional design, or applying instructional design or doing research in instructional
design. They can definitely do that.I can see it as a really helpful guide for
new faculty who don't have experience designing their instruction, because it is so comprehensive
and it allows you to kind of dip into spaces that you may be less familiar with. Maybe there's areas
(12:59):
that you are familiar with, but there's other topics that maybe you want to explore more,
like AI or other topics like different models or different ways to structure a course. So
you each co-authored or authored chapters in this book. Can you tell us a little bit
about your contributions to this volume?I contributed to quite a number of chapters,
obviously chapter one and the last chapter. I always contribute to that If I'm a co-editor,
(13:23):
I always love that, because it's like this where we're going, and this what we have learned. I like
that. So the first chapter and last chapter, that's what it is. But the two chapters that
I really contributed to substantively, one is on instructional design models. I like instructional
design models. I don't know why. The first book I used on instructional models, textbook when I
(13:48):
was doing PhD in instructional design was, I think, Gustavson, 2002, that's old now.
And when I was going through those instructional design models, I was just amazed. It's like,
how did they come up with this? And so we have one chapter on instructional design models, just
a synthesis to have things in one place. I know that books that are just books for instruction
(14:10):
design models, but this is like a synopsis of 10 or more designs, something like that, the most
practical ones that people can use. Anybody who is new to instruction design can easily follow
and we tell them, here are the strengths of each design, here are the weaknesses, and you can use
them in this and this area. So I co-authored that with a gentleman from Chicago. actually. I don't
(14:34):
even remember how I got to know him. We have never met, but we have collaborated like we have known
each other forever, but we just got to know each other on this project. And he's an instructional
designer in one of the universities there, and so he was equally excited about instruction design,
and he teaches instruction design. The other chapter that I really, really loved,
and I contributed alone because I just wanted to put in my own concepts of quality assurance in
(14:58):
instructional design. I basically took the same things that people have, but presented them in a
different perspective and integrated research in that chapter as well, which tends to be left out
when you're talking about quality assurance. People talk more about the strategies to use,
but not so much emphasizing the research aspect of that. And so I was able to create an acronym
(15:25):
for that to present the different phases that have to happen. And for each phase,
I have questions that people have to ask to assess that specific dimension of instructional design,
and it's much more comprehensive, not just at the course level, but in the whole instructional
design process. I contributed to others, but at a minimal level, but those two are the ones that
(15:47):
I really got carried away with, because it's just my passion. I love instructional design, step by
step and the instructional design models, and also to make sure that the quality is taken care of.
So while we have quite a few instructional designers in our audience, we believe,
a lot of people in the audience are faculty who may not be familiar with instructional design
(16:08):
models. Could you just talk a little bit about some of your favorite instructional design models,
the ones that you use, just so that people who may not be as familiar get a feel for them.
Well, all of us, we know this elusive ADDIE model. You know that is kind of the leader, even if,
when you want to go around it, you'll find that you'll always find some dimensions of that in
(16:29):
whatever other people come up with. We have rapid instruction design model that is also out there.
We have spiral designs, those who just feel like you go in circular ways. And looking at the
different models, I have come to realize that some look at it as strategies, while others look at
instruction design models are more into processes and the ones that I like the least, they look at
(16:56):
it primarily as a philosophical or theoretical thing, which I prefer not to go from that
perspective. If we talk about instruction design models, I want things step by step, things that
I can easily find in what other people did.So what I'm hearing you say is a lot of these
models are really actionable. So if someone is getting started in designing their own course,
(17:17):
they can follow a process. And there's these different processes folks can follow.
Yes.…as a way to develop their course.
Definitely, and for me, if it is not that user friendly, that people can follow step by step,
then there's an issue with that instruction design model, because we are going to introduce these
to people who are new to the field, we don't want them struggling: “Okay, how do I implement this?”
(17:40):
They should be able to read and understand most of what is being said and be able to apply that.
The other chapter you mentioned focused on quality assurance. You mentioned that you've
presented some research there, but is there any particular quality assurance technique that
you use, or that you encourage people to use?I wouldn't say that I have one specific technique.
What I have done in that chapter, I created the different phases of instructional design,
(18:07):
somewhere between five to seven phases, and each phase, I have the specific elements that have to
be taken care of. So I created a table that shows the different phases and each phase exactly what
needs to be taken care of. It's a long list. It's a long list, but that makes it very practical,
so that anybody who is still new to instruction design can follow, and once they have addressed
(18:30):
all those steps, they can move to the next phase and easily address what is happening.
And how about your chapters. Gianina?Of course, I contributed to the first chapter
and the last one with Safary, and I met the other colleagues, but I wrote, as mentioned,
one chapter with three other colleagues, one from Valencia University and the other two from Mexico,
(18:52):
on hybrid class, how to design a hybrid class. And because all four, we are excited about blending
face to face and the online instruction, we focus on different aspects on how to design,
and we provided specific examples how to use different tools, how to integrate them
(19:12):
in instruction. And I wrote a chapter by myself, so it was about addressing issues of inclusion in
instructional design. And in this chapter, I would say that it was blending my model,
the model I developed during my PhD thesis, the model just saying a few words in between. So I
(19:32):
am coming from a former communist country, so in my country, in Romania, only in the last years,
we are speaking about cooperative learning and how to train future teachers to use cooperative
learning. So during my PhD studies, I developed a model named CoLearnItt, cooperative learning for
initial teacher training. And in this chapter, I'm presenting my model blended with the UDL
(19:57):
principles. So it seems that all the components of the model are very well connected with the
UDL. So I am presenting with specific examples from my classes, because in the last years,
I conducted action research in my inclusive education class. So during the years,
I came up with different action plans and models. So I improved them year after year. And in this
(20:23):
chapter, I'm presenting the last version of my model. So I'm very excited because it's very
practical and each professor can implement in his teaching when designing the class,
these elements from the CoLearnItt model and UDL principles. And this is very exciting for me.
Let's go back to the first chapter you referred to on hybrid learning. This is
(20:46):
an area where which I think is probably underused given the meta-analyses that
suggest that it's often more effective than either face-to-face or purely asynchronous
or online learning. What are some things though, that faculty who first engage in hybrid learning
might do wrong? What are some common errors that perhaps you'd like to encourage people
not to do when designing a hybrid course?From the readings and the research I conducted,
(21:11):
I could identify that is not a balanced way between the face-to-face and synchronous or
asynchronous part. So in my opinion, it should be a training before designing such a class,
because it's not easy. So it's about how to use technology, and not all of the teachers
(21:31):
are used to the new technology. It's about how to create the content, how to organize the content,
how much of the content should be explored before the class, in a flip class format, and how much
in the class, in the physical class, how to organize or to design the assessment, because
it's important to have part in online, synchronous or asynchronous, and also in face to face. So all
(21:57):
these aspects should be in a balanced way, introduced in a hybrid class. And I think
the teacher should be trained in doing this, because it's not an easy task, let's be honest,
and also the technology. How do you use what kind of platforms so that they should be user friendly
and easy to access, easy to understand and so on, how to explain your students how to use
(22:20):
the platform, how to respond to the assessment tasks. So all this should be in a balanced and
very organized way. And yes, the teacher should be trained before organizing such a class.
And if I may add to that, the other challenge that personally, I have seen with people who
are not trained. Training is very, very important. The challenge has been people over loading their
(22:44):
students, because here, let's say this started as a face-to-face class. They have 100% of face to
face, and then they have another 50% online, and so students are overwhelmed with a lot of work.
That course and a half phenomenon that people often talk about with hybrid courses
when people are first designing them. It's a problem for both for the students and
(23:05):
for the faculty, right?Yeah, yeah, true.
Can you talk a little bit about your inclusive model and share some insights that folks might
include in their classrooms to make their classrooms and their courses more inclusive?
In the model I developed each component… let me list the components…. so it's about using the
(23:25):
training model of Showers, because only following a specific steps the students you are preparing
to be teachers can learn how to apply, from the training to the class, everything. It's about,
how to design the classroom management so that it's inclusive, how to organize your
(23:46):
interactive lecturing so that address each type of the students you have in the class,
how to evaluate the students, how to design, how to offer or to give expert feedback,
so that mastery learning takes place in that class. Also how to use dimensions of learning to
build step by step this inclusive class, because we have such a diversity in our classes today,
(24:11):
and we need to be so creative and to bring so much diversity in our teaching, so that each
one of them can be touched by our teaching, to be motivated by our teaching. So all these
components are related to the three directions in UDL, how to diversify the teaching methods,
so that the students can learn how to diversify your evaluation, your assessment,
(24:36):
so that each one of them can respond in his or her own way due to the diversity that I mentioned, and
how to engage them in the classroom. So in these three directions, I think my model is very well
connected with the UDL principles. And I showed in the chapter how each component or how each
(24:57):
part of the component, it's very developed. So I cannot just say in a few words the entire model,
but I can show with specific examples from the classroom and from my research, how the CoLearnItt
model is connected with UDL principles. It's really nice. You know, for me, it's very exciting
to achieve this point with my model, because I don't know, in future, maybe something new will
(25:22):
appear. Because I'm continuing with the research, I am conducting action research in each class,
so after each class, something new comes up.Probably one of the best parts about working
on a project like this is getting to learn a whole swath of new things.
And that's also one of the benefits and challenges of running a podcast. We get so
many good ideas from our guests that we try to implement, perhaps sometimes too many of them,
(25:45):
and it can be a bit overwhelming at times. We also have another co-author of one of the
chapters… Rebecca, could you talk a little bit about your contribution to the book?
Sure, I had the honor of working on a chapter about designing for students with disabilities,
which is something that is certainly dear to my heart. As listeners of our podcast know,
(26:06):
and I think I got to co-author with a colleague that, Gianina, I think you maybe had recommended
that I write with Chip and so it was really wonderful to work with a colleague from Romania,
who I had not met before. And one of the things that we explored in this chapter is some of
the digital accessibility standards, the web content accessibility guidelines in combination
(26:29):
with UDL or Universal Design for Learning and TILT, Transparency in Learning and Teaching,
and how there are some really interesting synergies and overlaps between these three
models and strategies, but also where they differ, and how those differences and implementing some of
those other pieces actually really help support a variety of different kinds of students with a
(26:51):
variety of different kinds of needs and different kinds of technology that they
might be using to access information. So it was really fun to work on this particular chapter,
to explore the different kinds of things that we often recommend, but also like you Gianina,
to like put them lined up next to each other and see where some of those overlaps are,
and to really make those explicit, so that it also made the differences very explicit.
(27:14):
And how did you connect TILT with digital accessibility?
Well, you know, one of the most important things is not necessarily the technical standard around
digital but all of our digital content needs to be transparent in the way we're organizing it. And
there is a WCAG, or a web content accessibility guideline that really points the idea of like
clear language and TILT is all about clarity and transparency. So it was a way to kind of bring
(27:37):
that to life, I think, in a much more obvious way, and really provide steps that someone could
take to implement that into their coursework. So there was a lot of examples that are like that,
where there's one here that seems like something I need to do, but maybe it's in a language that
doesn't make a lot of sense to a teacher, but then you bring in another model that talks
about that same kind of concept or content in a different way, that can be really helpful.
(28:02):
Very good. So one of the things that
I know is covered in this really comprehensive volume is assessment of instructional design,
but we haven't really talked about that in as much detail. Can you share a little bit of insight of
what is captured in this volume on that topic?Assessment has always been a challenging topic,
and from this volume, it became clear that it's not just a matter of strategy, it's not just
(28:27):
a matter of technology. It has a whole lot of things related to the philosophy of education,
cultural background of the education setting, the historical background, the political background.
So these are things that we never really thought about. Because, like, as far as I'm concerned,
when I look at assessment, immediately I put on my American lenses. I look at it from
(28:51):
that perspective. But other people, it's like, remember this place where I was in a specific
country in Africa, where assessment is about policing and making sure that students struggle,
students suffer. So students who get an A, it's like it's a fight between the students and the
(29:11):
faculty. So when I found myself in that specific country, my first few months, I was struggling
because it was an expectation on me that I should assess students from that perspective. But I said:
“No, assessment for me is to help students learn and make their learning effective and efficient.
And so if I see that there's something that's not working, how can I support the student better?”
(29:35):
But no. So there was a tension between my philosophy of assessment, of learning and
assessment, and what was being expected from me. And so you'll find that when we are dealing with
assessments and instructional design, you'll find that the context where the assessment is
going to take place has other elements that have to be taken into consideration. We cannot have
(29:56):
universal principles that everybody will abide with. You will always find variations based on
specific context with the specific countries’ specific culture and maybe languages as well.
I can imagine that being a challenge, given all the variety in the audience that you're writing
for, given the different histories of higher education and the role of higher education
(30:19):
and the traditions of higher education. One other issue, though, related to assessment,
that I think we all wonder about, especially in forms of online assessment is AI, and you
do have some information on AI in the book. Do you have any recommendations for people who are
teaching in terms of being able to adequately assess work when students might perhaps have
(30:41):
access to a wide variety of AI platforms that can respond to many different types of assessments?
Actually, I listened some presentation of some experts in AI, and I understood that we should not
be afraid of AI, but we should learn how to use it properly in our classes. So regarding assessment,
(31:01):
let's say that in Romania, because of the background, as a former communist country,
we are not so how to say attached, for example, to formative evaluation. So we are focused on
summative evaluation. And sometimes this is a big issue, because our students are learning
just for grades, not all of them, some of them, of course, based on what this expert was presenting,
(31:25):
that we should not be afraid of AI, but learning how to use it, I was thinking, why not inviting
some experts in AI in my university and training our teachers how to use AI, not only to evaluate,
to assess, but also to teach, to present and to create content to help students to understand
(31:46):
how to use it in an ethical manner. And yes, I connected with some experts from Portugal,
and they will come probably in March, April next year, to train us on how to use AI. So
I think it's not anymore that moment to just to be scared about AI, but just addressing properly,
because it's the reality. So why not teach our students how to use it in an ethical manner?
(32:10):
And I think many things can be created and time saved with the use of AI, but in a proper way,
of course, and also assessment, I think the teachers very fast, can identify if the homework
is done with AI or by the student, if you know your students, of course, if you have 200 or 300
(32:31):
students, it's very difficult. In my university, because we don't have so many students, it's a
small university, we can, in a moment, identify that this is not the voice of my students. These
are not the words of my students. So it's not difficult. But go back to my first idea, why not
collaborating with AI in an ethical manner?So one of the other topics that's covered in
(32:55):
such a comprehensive volume…. we can't emphasize how comprehensive it actually is… is leadership.
Can you talk a little bit about the role leadership plays in instructional design?
I was so glad that we were able to include at least one whole chapter on leadership in
instructional design, for many different reasons. Number one, when those who are with online, but
(33:16):
this volume covers both online and face to face, when people want to go deep into instructional
design, they want to have instructional design team or instructional design department,
usually they will just try to identify somebody who is an IT, because in their mind, instructional
design means somebody who's good with the computers, which is not true. I mean, yes,
(33:39):
you know some of the computers, but instructional design is not primarily computers. It's really
about thinking and doing things, planning instruction, and that's basically what it is.
And so because of this, we do not really have a lot of leaders who are trained as
instructional design leaders. People just grow into instructional leadership, but not
(34:01):
really train. And so you find that if somebody didn't go through like a leadership training,
or they didn't study instructional design, because they may be instructional design team leader
without actually having done extensive training on instruction design, you'll find that there's
always a disconnect between the instructional design team and the leader, that's one side,
(34:24):
somebody who can provide the vision, the mission and design the whole department,
provide the leadership for the whole department and connect that to the university. It has to be
somebody who understands very well instructional design but also knows how to deal with higher
administration, because the instructional design leader is not necessarily the president of the
(34:45):
college or the university. And so how do they do this? That chapter covers that extensively and is
written by people who have extensive knowledge and expertise in the area. The other aspect of this,
and I'm going to speak now from the online education perspective. I've been in universities
where online education was being integrated at the beginning. I've been twice director of
(35:10):
online education to start the department of online education. And the common challenge has always
been, “Oh, since you have a computer and you have internet connection, and we have online library,
okay, you don't need anything, you just do everything, and we'll have online education.”
The administrators do not understand that this is a whole different thing. We need a team, we need a
(35:34):
budget. We need resources, and this is something that they have, if they want to go into online
education, they will have to invest significant money into this. And so the chapter helps with
that. If you want to start an instructional design team, what needs to be in place? How
do you relate with the top administration to make sure you get the buy in and the support
(35:57):
that is needed to lead your instructional design team? What are the challenges? How do you fund
resources? How do you connect? How do you deal with things when you have limited resources,
because that tends to be a challenge, especially when the department is new. What kind of personnel
do you want to have on board when you have your instructional design team? How do you
establish the standards, the policies? All these are things that have to be dealt with
(36:20):
when you are a leader of instructional design.And as the role of instructional designers has
become much more developed and much more extensive in terms of how they're used,
that's an important point, and it sounds like that's an important chapter
too for potential leaders to be looking at.So we always wrap up by asking, what's next?
Many things are next, are coming. One of the projects I finished, it's The Alphabet of
(36:46):
Values. It's a book for teachers, for parents, and for kids. And next week, on Wednesday,
is the launch of the book here in Romania. I'm very excited, because the book, it's with the
contribution. I'm the editor and the one who designed the pedagogical part with strategies,
methods, for children, for parents, and for teachers. But 26 authors from around the world,
(37:14):
with MA and PhD in education, business and public health, wrote the stories. So all the continents
are covered. And the beauty of this book is that it's inclusive, has different aspects. It's also
interconnected with other fields, with geography, history, languages, religion, and others, and it's
(37:36):
very practical. The illustrations are done by a specialist, by an expert or professional in this
field, and I'm very happy that it was published, I think three or four weeks ago, and the next week
is the launch of this and also another book I'm sending in two weeks to print. It's qualitative
research, a practical guide for early career researchers, also with the contribution of
(38:01):
different experts, researchers around the world. And I really hope that it was more for Romania,
because we still believe that qualitative research is not so important, but step by step, we can show
that has its place, and it's very relevant in many fields. So printing, publishing in English,
(38:21):
of course, I will translate it into Romanian language. So I am very excited about this,
and also about our next year international conference, Safary participated. He was two
years ago, the keynote speaker, but next year, we have competing perspectives in the AI age.
This is the theme, so it's very interesting. And these are my future projects, only a few of them,
(38:47):
because we are involved in many projects. But I'm happy because two of these are done.
I love that you are supporting learners and educators of a wide variety of ages and education
settings and moments in their career.When I come back from my PhD studies,
I studied in the Philippines. By the way, Safary was one of the best teachers I had there, and we
(39:13):
continued, as you can see, to collaborate since I came back. I wanted to help the
education system here in Romania, because we are making small steps towards Western
approaches, but I want to contribute to this development, and I'm very happy to do this.
How about you, Safary?You know, writing is my addiction,
(39:33):
and Gianina knows this, because ever since I met her, I don't know if it was 2016,
somewhere around there, when we first met, I've always written, and for the first time,
last March, after I published my recent book on qualitative research, I said, I'm going to
take a break until October this year. So I'm on break. I have not been writing. It has been hard.
(39:54):
It's been very hard because I have so many ideas that are popping up in the head. I said, “No, no,
I'm taking a break until October.” So in October, of course, I have a few ideas that are already in
mind. I'm thinking of going back to qualitative research, because the first handbook I published
was on qualitative research in Asian context. Then there was these two for higher education. And so
(40:17):
I want to go back to qualitative research and probably create a textbook for quality research
designs, because I see that a number of people are struggling with that. This is not going to be a
handbook. It will be just a textbook, probably 200 pages and that’s not not too long, just to
guide people to distinguish between the different designs, so that they don't confuse that. I tend
(40:39):
to be a little bit of purist as far as qualitative research is concerned. So I want things to be done
right. You know, the structural design mindset is still influencing my other things that I do. So
that's the plan I have in the near future.So although taking a break from writing,
the mind is not taking a break. It’s not, but at least I get time to
(41:01):
relax and oh, well, not so much. Gianina and I have a conference next week at a qualitative
research conference starting on Monday, so Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday. Again, it's
covering different countries, but it's a lot less thinking than when you're leading a handbook.
Well, thank you. It's great to hear from you, and it's great to hear about this project and
(41:21):
your future plans.Thank you.
Thank you so much for inviting us. It's been a great privilege to be back on the podcast.
Yeah, thanks for joining us.If you've enjoyed this podcast,
please subscribe and leave a review on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast service.
(41:45):
To continue the conversation, join us on our Tea for Teaching Facebook page.
You can find show notes, transcripts and other materials on teaforteaching.com.
Music by Michael Gary Brewer. Editing assistance provided by Madison Lee.
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