May 7, 2025 • 46 mins
During the past decade, public confidence in education has been declining. In this episode, SUNY Chancellor John B. King Jr. joins us to discuss his new book that provides a compelling narrative of the value of education in transforming lives.
Chancellor King has a long history of involvement with education. After graduating from Harvard, he acquired a Master's degree from Teacher’s College at Columbia University and taught high school social studies. He later co-founded Roxbury Preparatory Charter School and served as a co-Director for five years. Under his leadership, students in this school attained the highest scores of any urban middle school in the state and closed the racial achievement gap. After acquiring his doctoral degree from Columbia and a law degree from Yale, Dr. King served as New York State’s Education Commissioner from 2011 to 2014. He left NY for a while to work in the Obama administration as Deputy Secretary of Education from 2015 to 2016 and joined Obama’s Cabinet as Secretary of Education from 2016 to 2017. Following his work in the Obama Administration, Dr. King continued to advocate for increased educational equity and access as President and CEO of the Education Trust. He now serves as Chancellor of the State University of New York. We’re interviewing Dr. King in his role as the author of his new book and not in his role as the SUNY Chancellor.
A transcript of this episode and show notes may be found at http://teaforteaching.com.
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(00:00):
during the past decade public confidence
in education has been declining in this
episode we discuss a new book that
provides a compelling narrative of the
value of education in transforming
[Music]
lives thanks for joining us for T for
(00:20):
Teaching an informal discussion of
innovative and effective practices in
teaching and learning this podcast
series is hosted by John Kaine an
economist and Rebecca Musher a graphic
designer and features guests doing
important research and advocacy work to
make higher education more inclusive and
supportive of all
(00:41):
[Music]
[Applause]
[Music]
learners our guest today is the State
University of New York Chancellor John B
king Jr he has a long history of
involvement with education after
graduating from Harvard Dr king acquired
a master's degree from Teachers College
at Columbia University and taught high
(01:02):
school social studies he later
co-founded Roxberry Preparatory Charter
School and served as a co-director for 5
years under his leadership students in
the school attained the highest scores
of any urban middle school in the state
and close the racial achievement gap
after acquiring his doctoral degree from
Colombia and a law degree from Yale he
served as New York State's education
(01:23):
commissioner from 2011 to 2014 dr king
left New York for a while to work in the
Obama administration as deputy secretary
of education from 2015 to 2016 and
joined Obama's cabinet as Secretary of
Education from 2016 to 2017 following
his work in the Obama administration Dr
king continued to advocate for increased
(01:43):
educational equity and access as
president and CEO of the education trust
he now serves as chancellor of the state
university of New York we're
interviewing Dr king in his role as the
author of his new book and not in his
role as the Sunni chancellor welcome
Chancellor King thanks so much it's
great to talk to you again today's teas
are Chancellor King are you drinking tea
by any chance no I just have water today
(02:06):
unfortunately I'm visiting Sunni
Purchase and I don't have access to my
usual supply of tea what a
disappointment
sorry about
that next time John I have constant
comment today which is appropriate for
podcaster and I am drinking a pure
peppermint tea today always a good
(02:27):
refresher at the end i'm jealous
so we invite you here today to talk
about your new book Teacher by Teacher
the people who change our lives which
provides a powerful testimonial to the
power of education to transform lives in
the introduction you note that you were
fortunate to have teachers and mentors
who helped guide you through critical
turning points in your life can you talk
(02:47):
about what led you to write this
particular book sure i thought about it
off and on over the years and you should
write a book is a thing that people
sometimes say to you you know but I
hadn't really committed to it until the
Washington Post did a story about my
family history and that prompted a book
(03:10):
agent to reach out to the journalist to
ask if he wanted to do a book about our
family history and he he was doing
another book project and said "No I
don't really want to do it right now."
but you should call John and see if he
wants to do a book and that got me
started on this journey and I really saw
it as an opportunity to talk about the
role that teachers have played in my
(03:31):
life and to really take on this thing
that we do in our culture where if
somebody has persevered through
difficult circumstances we make the
story about them and not about the
people who supported them and I really
wanted to shift that and say all the
(03:52):
opportunities that I've had the
extraordinary opportunities I've had all
trace back to teachers who intervened at
the right moment in my life i was very
very lucky to have these amazing
teachers and I wanted to tell their
story and to tell the story of the many
amazing teachers I've gotten to work
with over my career and at a time when
(04:12):
there's so many public questions about
the quality of education I think this is
extremely welltimed as your book
illustrates you've been involved with
education all of your life basically and
you note in your book that education
helped to define your family and shape
your family's identity can you tell us a
little bit about this sure so on my
mother's side my mother has a classic
(04:35):
New York story she was born in Pon in
Puerto Rico came to New York City as a
kid maybe about five or so with her
brother and my grandmother who was a
single mom who decided to come to New
York City to create opportunity for her
kids she went to work in a garment
factory and my mother learned English in
(04:56):
the New York City public schools was the
first in her family to go to college
went to Hunter in the Cutuney system and
really got to live exactly the dream
that my grandmother had and because of
my grandmother's hard work and faith I
have the life that I have today she made
that investment she made those
(05:17):
sacrifices so that my mother could go to
college my mother became a teacher and a
guidance counselor and it's really an
extraordinary story about what public
higher education makes possible what
Hunter made possible in my mother's life
my father grew up in a very segregated
New York City just after the turn of the
20th century the grandson of enslaved
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people and he found a path through
education becoming a teacher and later
the first black principal in Brooklyn
and senior administrator in New York
City schools and his life could have
gone in a lot of different directions
being born in 1908 in New York City but
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school provided this path for him and
part of the reason he knew to take that
path is that my grandmother his mother
had been one of the first graduates of
what is now the University of Maryland
Eastern Shore and H.B.CU on Eastern
Shore of Maryland and she was very
unique in being an African-American
woman with a college degree in that
(06:23):
early period and that made her path
possible and that helped shape my
father's path and so education has just
been so central to my family's whole
story i've read your book i really
appreciated hearing your story but also
I think it reflects a lot of our
students stories and I think it's
helpful to have these stories out there
(06:43):
so that others can see themselves in the
stories one of the things that you talk
about is your growing responsibility
that you had to take on as your father
slid into dementia can you talk a little
bit about the role school played in your
life during this period when you were
taking over many of these adult roles
like paying bills buying groceries at
such a young age so when I was little my
(07:06):
mom was really the main care provider in
our home my parents were very far apart
in age my father was 66 when I was born
my mother was 40 and my father was very
distant not very active with me i don't
remember for example ever playing catch
with my father and so my mother was my
anchor and she passed away from a heart
(07:29):
attack when I was eight and there are no
words to describe how devastating and
painful that moment was and then it was
just me and my father and he was distant
then but got more and more distant and
(07:50):
now I know it to have been Alzheimer's
but the time I didn't know why he was
acting the way he was but over the four
years that was just the two of us he got
more and more erratic some nights he'd
be sad other nights angry sometimes even
violent and I didn't know why i can
remember one night he woke me up 2 in
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the morning told me it was time to go to
school and I was arguing with him saying
no dad it's not time to go to school and
he was pulling me on the stairs I was
clinging to the banister and I didn't
know why eventually he gave up and both
went back to sleep but that was what
home was like just this incredibly
unstable and scary place but school was
(08:31):
amazing school was this place that was
safe and consistent and nurturing and I
was very fortunate during that period to
have Mr asterile who's my teacher in
fourth fifth sixth grade he looped with
us and then a number of teachers but in
particular Miss D who was my seventh
grade social studies teacher and Mr ross
(08:52):
and Miss D really saved my life during
that period it gave me a sense of hope
and purpose and as my father got more
and more sick as you said I had to
figure out how to just keep our
household going bill started to come
marked late cancellation those kinds of
things and I realized I needed to do
(09:12):
something about that so my father's name
is same as mine John B King Senior I'm
John B King Jr so I started signing
checks and sending them in to try to
make sure that the power stayed on my
father had stopped going to the store
but I knew where he had kept cash in the
house for years and so I snuck in and
(09:34):
got some money there and started going
to the store myself to get food in our
house as a survival strategy it was just
trying to figure out like how to keep
things going with a deep sense of
hopelessness about life at home but
school was the place where I could
channel a sense of optimism and in this
(09:56):
part of the book you talk about some of
the teachers that had that effect on you
of giving you that sense of optimism and
one of the things I thought of when we
were reading this is that we had a
reading group this semester on 10 to 25
the science of motivating young people
by David Joerger and one of the things
he emphasizes is that a really effective
way to motivate adolescence is to let
(10:17):
them know that you have high
expectations for them that you believe
that they're capable of achieving those
expectations and to provide the support
that they need while treating them with
respect would it be fair to say that
those teachers you mentioned Mr astell
and Miss D and some other teachers
shared this approach to teaching oh
absolutely when I think about Mr
(10:38):
asterell's class it was rigorous we read
the New York Times every day starting
the fourth grade we learned the leader
and capital of every country in the
world we did productions of Midsummer
Night's Dream Shakespeare in elementary
school we did a production of Alice in
Wonderland i was the rose with big red
(10:59):
felt petals sticking out of my head we
went to the museum and the ballet and Mr
rosel is that kind of teacher who's
curious about you you know he's curious
about what you as a 8-year-old or a
9year-old or a 10-year-old what you
think about the world and he would have
these very serious discussions with us
where he really was so interested in our
(11:21):
take on things and we talked about hard
subjects we were in the midst of the
Cold War he created this
academically challenging enriching but
also loving environment you'd finish a
book he'd be there with the next you'd
finish a math problem he'd have the next
(11:41):
one that was a little bit harder he was
always pushing but in a spirit of love
and care and he didn't know what was
going on for me at home maybe had
suspicions but he didn't know but he
knew to create an environment that was
incredibly nurturing and I'm still in
(12:01):
touch with Mr austral he's just an
extraordinary human and Miss D was a
different kind of teacher she was my
seventh grade social studies teacher she
was a former actress or maybe she was
still acting at the time a huge
personality but again sort of expected a
lot of us at that point my father was
very sick and I would often sit in class
(12:23):
and worry about how he was doing what
was happening at home how we'd be able
to just keep going but in Miss D's class
I remember when we did a project where
we had to do an Aztec newscast and in
that moment the most important thing in
the world to me was to be the best Aztec
sports cer there had ever been and that
(12:44):
was because of the environment she
created and so I think those points from
Jerger are exactly right and are very
consistent with findings about the
research on retention completion some of
the research even around how to combat
stereotype threat and it always comes
(13:05):
back to that mix of high expectations
and communicating the confidence that
students can do it so one of the things
that you also talk about in your book is
that you lived in Long Island with your
brother after the death of your father
and then you applied and were accepted
at Philips Academy in Andover can you
tell us a little bit about your
(13:25):
experience there and how that affected
your interest in racial and
socioeconomic inequality so when I went
to live with my brother I was 12 and he
was 24 my dad had passed and I was
insistent that I wanted to go live with
my brother in part because when my dad
was very sick quite frequently I would
go spend a weekend with my brother and
it was super fun we'd go to the movies
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we'd go bowling we'd eat out every meal
it was very exciting and fun turns out
that it's tough for a 24 year old to
raise a 12year-old and he was struggling
himself with sort of who he was going to
be and he drank a lot and he partied a
lot and he was a little bit rudderless
and it was very unstable and he had
(14:09):
these different difficult relationships
and pretty quickly I realized living
with him was not healthy and so then I
had to figure out what to do and I had a
friend from elementary school for PS276
who had gone to Grten with a scholarship
through Prep for Prep or Oliver one of
(14:30):
those programs that helps kids from New
York City go to New England boarding
schools and he was having good
experience he told me about it and I
thought "Okay well that's what I'm going
to do i'm going to figure out how to get
to one of these boarding schools." So a
cousin helped me with the application
and I ended up at Andover and I could
not have been more out of place as
(14:51):
context for folks Andover is where
George HW Bush went where George W bush
and Jeb Bush went it is everything you
imagine of a highly selective very
expensive very fancy New England private
school and I was a kid from Brooklyn who
(15:13):
hadn't really had a stable home life
since I was eight and I just really
struggled with the
nonacademic parts of campus life and I
really struggled with navigating the
issues of race and class on campus and
it was just very clear that the campus
(15:36):
wasn't working very hard to create a
sense of belonging for students of color
like me and there were these multiple
moments where I just felt so out of
place and so conscious of the ways in
which I was not I don't know if welcome
is quite the right word but not the
(15:57):
priority for the institution students
like me were not how the institution
thought of itself i describe in the book
an argument in a history class with a
teacher about the road scholarship and I
was making a point about Cecil Roads and
what he meant in the world and the
teacher was very dismissive of my
(16:20):
argument and it felt like this
unwillingness on his part to think about
how race and history interconnect
with our lives and our choices and that
was sort of emblematic of just a tension
that I experienced there and I got in a
lot of trouble so I didn't follow any of
(16:41):
the rules and I got kicked out and I
always say to people I'm the first US
Secretary of Education i've been kicked
out of high school but it was not the
right place for me at the time and you
recovered from that though and you moved
on to Harvard after graduating and there
you've described working on a number of
projects in the Mission Hill community
(17:02):
can you talk a little bit about some of
your experiences there yeah I was
fortunate that after I got kicked out I
went to live with my own uncle and they
really helped me get my life on track
but when I got to Harvard I felt out of
place a little bit and also definitely
imposttor syndrome like I had to write
two essays for my college application
the regular essay and why'd you get
(17:22):
kicked out essay that you have to write
if you've been expelled from a school
and so I remember as a freshman just
feeling like is somebody going to tap me
on the shoulder and say we made a
mistake that other essay fell under the
table we didn't see it you're not
supposed to be here it's like I was
struggling a little bit when I first got
there to find my place and I went to
like a volunteer fair
(17:45):
and they were recruiting people to teach
civics in local elementary and middle
schools and I was like "Oh that'll be
fun that'll be interesting because I
cared about civics and government and
politics i was interested in that and I
like the idea of community service so I
signed up to do it and it changed my
(18:06):
whole trajectory i ended up teaching
civics and then teaching conflict
resolution in schools i ended up running
a summer camp in uh public housing
development in Boston where we lived for
the summer as well as worked with the
students and families then that turned
into helping to run the afterchool
program and I spent probably more of my
(18:26):
time frankly in Boston than in Cambridge
doing public service work and engaging
with the community and that led me to
really conclude I wanted to be an
educator because I so loved doing for
other kids what teachers had done for me
so when you graduated Harvard then you
went to Columbia University Teachers
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College you decided then to begin your
first year of teaching in Puerto Rico
can you talk about being a firsttime
teacher yeah so it's really hard i
always say to people that I've had a lot
of hard complicated jobs but the hardest
job I have ever had was first year
teaching because you don't have files to
fall back on you don't have the lived
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experience to fall back on you want to
do a good job every day is just very
stressful so you're planning it's the
first time you're teaching each lesson
and you're planning every night you're
doing grading every night and like it's
overwhelming first year teaching is very
very hard i just have a special place in
my heart for first year teachers and I
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was doing it in a context where I'd
moved to Puerto Rico i was teaching at a
school that was a private school largely
serving the students who were children
of the elite and my theory of going to
Puerto Rico was I was going to have this
cultural experience i was going to
really get to know the island more
(19:53):
obviously I visited as a little kid and
I wanted to have that experience i
wanted to work on my Spanish i
underestimated how overwhelming first
year teaching would be and how
all-consuming it would be i also
underestimated how difficult I would
find it to teach in a school where there
was so little focus on social
(20:15):
consciousness for the students there
were certainly some students who were
there on scholarship but the vast
majority of students were there because
their parents had tremendous resources
and they were largely going to college
in the United States when they graduated
mainland United States and they were
being prepared to be the next generation
(20:38):
of leaders but without a sense of
consciousness about the complicated
colonial relationship between Puerto
Rico and the United States without a
deep awareness of issues of race and
class and how they play out in Puerto
Rico and there definitely are colorline
issues in Puerto Rico but that was not
discussed and I really struggled with as
(21:00):
a social studies teacher who would bring
into my class a lot of complicated
issues of the history of slavery and
abolitionist movement and the civil war
and reconstruction and the dismantling
of reconstruction the emergence of the
KKK you know we were having these
intense conversations about race and
(21:20):
American history but yet not really
engaging around the issues just under
the surface in life in Puerto Rico so
that was very difficult alongside the
frustrations of just navigating first
year teaching and an environment where
there really wasn't much support i don't
recall anyone ever observing my class
(21:41):
and giving me any feedback and so that's
a challenge I think for a lot of first
year teachers they don't get the kind of
induction support they should and it's
true for higher ed too frankly right
that oftentimes higher ed faculty do not
get the experience of a lot of feedback
and support around pedigogy early in
their careers so it was very hard and I
decided that I wanted to be in a school
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that had a clearer civic mission and I
wanted to reconnect with a community of
friends that had stayed in Boston and so
I decided to leave Puerto Rico and teach
in Boston and you mentioned that higher
ed may face similar problems i think the
problem may be even worse in higher ed
because at least when you begin working
in secondary ed you've had some teacher
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training courses people in higher ed
when they go to teach have generally had
little or no training with the exception
of a few graduate programs that provide
it and there is gradually some progress
there but I think we still have quite a
ways to go in higher ed you mentioned
coming back to Boston and one of your
next roles was to work with Roxbury Prep
could you talk a little bit about your
(22:46):
work there and what made this
institution so very successful yeah as a
high school teacher one of the things
that I saw in Boston was that many of my
students were coming so poorly prepared
just behind kids coming into nth grade
with fifth grade reading skills fifth
grade math skills and really struggling
to get caught up enough to be in a
(23:09):
position to have real choices about what
to do after high school so starting a
middle school I hoped to be able to
build a stronger foundation for students
i also had been frustrated in the
schools where I'd worked as a teacher
about the lack of support around
teaching and learning and so I really
wanted to create a school that centered
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excellence in teaching and learning so
Roxberry Prep we did a few things that I
think were really important structurally
we had three and a half weeks of teacher
professional development before the
school year would even begin time for
folks to plan to look at student work
now there's trade-offs less summer for
everybody but we built into the fabric
(23:52):
of the school this idea that you would
work very diligently as a community of
teachers on the art and science of
teaching and that was very helpful we
had a longer school day that made a huge
difference for our students just more
time for students who were coming to us
in middle school quite a bit behind but
(24:14):
we were able to have more time for
academics but also time for enrichment
activities because of our longer day but
on Fridays we ended at the same time as
the district so that we could create a
couple of hours for teacher development
time and so every week we were watching
videos of instruction we were looking at
(24:35):
student work together we were meeting in
grade level teams to talk about students
who were struggling and what supports
they needed or meeting in departments to
talk about instructional practice and
that routine of careful attention to
quality teaching I think helped us to
get really strong academic results for
(24:57):
students we also were very focused on
culture and building a culture as you
described about the Joerger work
building a culture of high expectations
with love and that communication of
belief in students and we're very small
we really spent a lot of time on picking
the right teachers to be a part of the
(25:18):
community and then really invested in
developing people and it was amazing it
was incredibly satisfying work i'm still
in touch with a lot of our students and
the teachers who worked with me then and
as you mentioned in the intro you know
we got really outstanding academic
results and send students on to really
(25:39):
great opportunities afterwards and that
led me to think about policy because
there were a lot of questions where I
was thinking how do we scale some of
what's working well that's such a great
transition into the next thing we wanted
to ask you about which is how does one
transition from being in a school into
policym so can you talk a little bit
(26:01):
about your experiences in the New York
State education department some of the
challenges that you faced and maybe some
of the big successes as well yeah so
after 5 years of leading Roxberry Prep I
was thinking about what's next and how
could I kind of have a bridge to policy
and I decided to go to law school at
that point I was working on my
dissertation and I decided to go to law
(26:21):
school with the thought that there was a
lot of lawyers in public policy and I
had the experience when I was first year
teacher the summer after my first year
of teaching i interned at the US
education department in the secretary's
office and I worked for the person who
was the adviser to the secretary on
teaching who had been a teacher of the
year but she was often the only teacher
in the room everybody else was lawyers
(26:43):
and so I had this sense that law school
could be a helpful set of skills and
bridge to public policy and that ended
up happening i ran a network of schools
i became deputy commissioner and then
commissioner and as commissioner you
really are thinking about scale 700
school districts in New York State we
(27:04):
had a huge infusion of funding from the
US education department early in the
Obama administration to do work on
strengthening the standards for teaching
and learning helping struggling schools
in high needs communities turn around
their performance building better data
(27:26):
systems so it's a great opportunity to
have those resources and to think about
scale work one frustration was we had a
very ambitious agenda in the state and
the Obama administration had a very
ambitious agenda for ways to accelerate
progress in schools and I think in some
ways that ambition got out ahead of the
(27:50):
capacity building and implementing
something like the common core became
very difficult because the work was
focused on changing teaching practice
but simultaneously there were changes to
the assessments simultaneously there
were changes to how teachers were going
(28:11):
to be evaluated it was a lot on the
system and I think I learned a lot about
the need to build buyin on major change
initiatives and to pace the work so that
the people doing the work are full
(28:31):
partners in it and I don't think we did
that well enough at the federal level or
in New York State and so there were a
lot of good things that we created
incredible curricular materials the
expeditionary learning English language
arts curriculum which is still to this
day generating outstanding results in
many schools around the country so that
(28:51):
was exciting a number of really creative
new schools were launched like the PEK
schools that were launched around New
York State where students graduate with
a high school diploma an associates
degree first in line for jobs with
employer partners in technology and
healthcare in advanced manufacturing
such interesting work but the politics
(29:14):
were very intense and there were ways in
which if we had sequenced the work
differently I think we could have
managed those politics more effectively
so one of the challenges I suspect is
that when you're working with a 4-year
administration there's an incentive to
try to get things through quickly which
can result in those types of challenges
(29:36):
because you know if you don't get them
in the next administration may not share
those values and beliefs so it's quite
understandable your next move was to the
US Department of Education where you had
some really impactful programs that you
had worked on could you talk a little
bit about that yeah so it's funny you
know I did a lot of work with the US
(29:57):
education department when I was
commissioner and got to know Arie Duncan
who was my predecessor as secretary
really well and Arie called me one day
and he said "Do you want to come down to
DC and be my deputy i'd really like you
to do that." And I said to him "Look I
love what I'm doing in New York but I'm
a huge fan of President Obama and you
and the work that you're doing and I'm
(30:19):
very torn will you promise me that you
will stay to the end of the
administration because if I'm going to
move my family to DC I want to know that
I'm going to be working with you?" And
he said "Oh absolutely 100% i'm going to
be there till the very last day turn out
the lights at the end." And I said
"Okay." All right so after I ultimately
decided I would do it and I came down to
(30:40):
be his deputy and then few months later
he comes into my office and he says I
need to talk to you about something and
he said you remember when I said I was
going to stay till the end well actually
I'm going back to Chicago and it was
totally understandable was important for
his family so an incredible outcome in
that the president asked me to be
(31:01):
secretary and what a privilege to serve
in President Obama's cabinet and to be a
part of such an impactful administration
and to get to work on really critical
education issues a couple of the things
that I'm very proud of that I did a lot
of work on one is cracking down on
predatory for-profit colleges that were
stealing from students stealing their
(31:24):
PEL grant money their GI Bill money
providing students often with a
substandard education often students
would not complete and yet they were in
debt to these institutions just really
awful and we put in place very stringent
rules we shut down some of the worst
actors built a process to cancel the
(31:47):
debt for the students who were taken
advantage of by these institutions now
of course a lot of that work was
undermined to your earlier point about
what happens when administrations change
a lot of that work was undermined during
the first Trump administration where
they brought in to oversee higher ed
policy literally the people who we have
been investigating days earlier that's
(32:10):
who they put in charge from that
predatory for-profit college industry
the Biden administration then had to go
back and redo some of the work that we
had done in the Obama administration and
we'll see where things go next on that
front but I was proud that we were
standing up for students and protecting
students we also had an initiative
(32:30):
called My Brother's Keeper which was
President Obama's initiative focus on
particularly boys and young men of color
and the challenges they faced and as
part of that work we launched an effort
to address really what had been a huge
public policy mistake in the mid '90s
which was in '94 the federal government
(32:51):
banned access to PEL grants for folks
who are incarcerated and this is
incredibly dumb public policy because
people who get any educational
programming while incarcerated are
substantially less likely to return to
prison and for folks who graduate with a
degree while incarcerated the recidivism
(33:12):
rate can be in the single digits so it's
a terrible idea to take away educational
programming in prison but it was part of
the period of tough on crime and
policies of mass incarceration and we
knew that we needed to fix it we didn't
think we could get Congress to do it we
just did not see a path in Congress so
(33:33):
we use our experimental authority under
the higher education act to create a
program called second chance PEL that
would allow 65 colleges and universities
on a pilot basis to use PEL grants for
students who are incarcerated and what
that did was create extraordinary
opportunities for those campuses but
also a proof point where we could bring
governors members of Congress state
(33:54):
legislators to see these programs talk
with students who are participating and
show that in fact these programs are
transformational and ought to be how we
think about criminal justice reform and
after I left the administration I was
leading a civil rights organization and
we continued with the civil rights
community the criminal justice reform
community to work on these issues and
(34:16):
ultimately we were able to persuade
Congress to change the law to repeal
that ban and now PEL grants are broadly
available to students who are
incarcerated and I talk in the book
about going to graduations in prisons
are just so incredibly moving because
you see not only how people are changing
(34:37):
their lives but how they are changed by
the experience of education and they
will describe just seeing the world
differently the different relationships
they're able to have with their family
members their kids and themselves
because of what they've learned through
their higher ed work it's incredibly
inspiring work and I'm really proud to
have been a part of that movement really
(35:00):
we've talked a bit about the impactful
work that the federal government can do
has done but there's been a decline in
public support for higher education over
the last decade what can we do to
rebuild political support for higher
education especially in this time it was
acknowledged that there's less faith in
(35:20):
institutions generally and so higher ed
has been caught up in what I think is a
broader cultural phenomenon of less
faith in institutions that said I think
we got to do a better job of delivering
and storytelling why I say we need to do
a better job on delivering is if you
went to one of those predatory
for-profit colleges and you left there
(35:42):
no degree no job
prospects deeply in debt you're going to
be pretty resentful of hiring and
everybody you know is going to be pretty
resentful of hiring if you went to a
private nonprofit or public college and
you didn't finish but you have debt no
degree feel stuck you're not going to
(36:03):
feel very good about higher ed
institutions and so one thing that we
need to do is we need to make sure that
the students who start have the support
to finish and that when folks finish
they see the economic benefit it's one
of the reasons I'm committed to the idea
of internships for all undergraduates
because I think it's really important
that students are able to when they
(36:27):
leave college
realize the intended economic benefit of
college of course we're preparing
citizens and we're preparing folks to be
well-rounded adults to lead fulfilling
lives and we want to make sure they're
able to support themselves and so
delivering on the promise of higher
education and getting better at
delivering is a part of the work but
(36:49):
then the other is storytelling i don't
think people realize how impactful
higher education is in every aspect of
American life that I don't think people
realize that when they're looking at
their phone that there are hundreds if
not thousands of things that are
happening inside of their phone that
were made possible by research that was
(37:09):
done on higher ed campuses or when
people go to the doctor and they're
getting their treatment i'm not sure
they realize that the reason that
treatment is even available is because
of research that was done on higher ed
campuses and so I think there's some
storytelling we need to do i was struck
that last week when Harvard decided to
(37:32):
push back on the demands of the
administration to really violate
principles of academic freedom one of
the things they did was they changed
their whole website so that now when you
go on the Harvard website it really
walks you through Alzheimer's research
cancer research research that helps our
(37:52):
military members be safer there just so
many things that research is making
possible and I thought that was really
smart on their part and I think that is
something we as a sector need to do a
much better job yes the change in the
Harvard website is really impressive and
it's a case I think that we all need to
make in our own ways too and your book
actually helps in this way too by
(38:14):
showing the impact that education had on
your life as well you conclude the book
with a discussion of tracing your
ancestry to enslaved people owned by
Thomas Griffith on a farm in Maryland
that was still owned by Griffith's
direct descendants can you tell us a
little bit about your experience of
visiting that family yeah well I had
(38:34):
mentioned earlier that my grandmother
graduated from University of Mount
Eastern Shore 1894 and asked reached out
and asked me to give the commencement
and it took a while different events for
me to do the commencement but during
that period as I was preparing for the
commencement I decided to do some family
research to try to flesh out the speech
(38:57):
and I worked with a woman who did
genealogy type projects at the Shamberg
the part of the New York City Public
Library that works on African-American
history and one night she sends an email
to me and my family we're sitting on the
couch watching TV and we get this email
and it says "I've discovered the place
where your great-grandfather was
(39:19):
enslaved and by the way it's less than
25 miles from where you live." Was in
Gaithersburg Maryland and I was living
at the time in Silver Spring Maryland
and oh by the way the property still
owned as you said by the direct line
descendants of the family that enslaved
your family and oh by the way the cabin
that your great-grandfather lived in as
(39:40):
an enslaved person with his family is
still standing on the ground and you
know it took your breath away right
because as an African-American you know
that there's this tie to the institution
of slavery but to think that you'd be
able to be in the place that was very
jarring and then this conversation pod
of like so now what do we do with this
information and like do you call ahead
(40:01):
do you send a note like how do you
introduce yourself to this family and
you have this complicated history and it
happened that my cousin was in town
maybe the next weekend to visit the new
Smithsonian the African-American History
and Culture Museum and they have a cabin
in their exhibit that they brought there
(40:22):
a cabin for enslaved people and that
prompted my cousin to say you know I got
to go see this place so she literally
went there with her husband she knocked
on the door and she said "Our people
were enslaved here." And that opened up
this whole relationship and journey that
we've had with the Beckers the family
two sisters who are descended from the
(40:44):
Griffiths and it's been a fascinating
journey one it's there's something quite
profound about standing inside that
cabin and
appreciating really the cruelty of the
institution of slavery the cabin is not
30 feet from the main house so you have
this profound sense that these were two
families living together in the same
physical space one owning the other
(41:08):
certainly in our family we also have the
profound sense of gratitude for the
journey of our family the fact that in
my family we went in three generations
from enslaved in that cabin to serving
in the cabinet of the first black
president incredible story about what's
possible in America we also have had a
journey in just getting to know the
Beckers and talking about this history
(41:29):
and realizing that even though they grew
up amongst the artifacts of the
institution of slavery called that cabin
the quarters they had not spent a lot of
time thinking about what the institution
of slavery was and meant and we've had
some really difficult conversations
around that but I think we've learned
(41:49):
they've learned from those conversations
and it's made me even more committed
that our schools higher ed institutions
have to grapple with the truth of our
history the complex truth the pain and
the progress and that to me is just
essential to the health of our democracy
(42:11):
and we're seeing a lot of push back on
that right now which is really really
troubling yes horrifying i mean some of
the things you're reading of people
taking down the Harry Tubman poster
taking books out of the library it's
chilling changing the history curriculum
in many states so that mentions of
slavery are being removed and so much
(42:31):
else yes during the confirmation
hearings for Secretary McMahon Chris
Murphy asked her "Do you think teaching
African-American history would violate
the president's executive order against
diversity equity inclusion?" And she
couldn't give an answer she said "I'd
have to look back at it." I mean that
(42:52):
was shocking to me and to be clear I
think it's 100% crystal clear that
teaching African-American history is
100% consistent with the law so I was
shocked by that exchange and consistent
with the history of our nation yes has
the benefit of being the truth
that's right this has been really
(43:12):
fascinating i think folks will really
enjoy reading your book to really see
the impact education can have through
the many stories of teachers that you've
shared and various aspects of our
education system in the US but we always
wrap up by asking what's next the big
daunting question of what's next yes yes
(43:34):
president Obama would always say he
would always quote Dr king and the line
that the ark of the moral universe is
long but it bends towards justice and I
truly believe that and I know there are
things happening today that can feel
like sliding backwards but I am
(43:56):
nonetheless optimistic that in the long
run we will continue America's history
of progress toward expanding the circle
of opportunity and so these are setbacks
but they are temporary and we have to
continue to build and educators have the
(44:17):
opportunity to do that every day with
their students the opportunity to build
towards a future that is more just more
sustainable and we just can't be
deterred from that by the awful
backsliding that we're seeing we have to
just double down on our efforts to
invest in a better future and it's
(44:37):
encouraging to see the protest
throughout the country right now yes
people standing up for the rule of law
for due process for academic freedom for
the important services that government
provides for our public servants there
are half as many people today working at
the US Education Department as there
(44:58):
were January 20th and my heart aches for
colleagues who I know were so committed
to being of service to the country who
many of whom were former teachers
principals faculty members at higher ed
institutions student affairs people at
higher ed institutions they came to the
department so that they could contribute
(45:19):
and they've been treated so horribly and
that's true across so many areas of
government where people have been tossed
aside who only want to serve i'm so glad
people are standing up for them well we
appreciate you spending time with us and
sharing your story and sharing pieces of
your book with us today thanks thanks
for the opportunity always great to talk
(45:40):
with you great talking to
[Music]
you if you've enjoyed this podcast
please subscribe and leave a review on
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to continue the conversation join us on
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(46:01):
find show notes transcripts and other
materials on t
foreing.com music by Michael Gary Brewer
[Music]
(46:21):
[Music]
during the past decade public confidence
in education has been declining in this
episode we discuss a new book that
provides a compelling narrative of the
value of education in transforming
[Music]
lives thanks for joining us for T for
(00:20):
Teaching an informal discussion of
innovative and effective practices in
teaching and learning this podcast
series is hosted by John Kaine an
economist and Rebecca Musher a graphic
designer and features guests doing
important research and advocacy work to
make higher education more inclusive and
supportive of all
(00:41):
[Music]
[Applause]
[Music]
learners our guest today is the State
University of New York Chancellor John B
king Jr he has a long history of
involvement with education after
graduating from Harvard Dr king acquired
a master's degree from Teachers College
at Columbia University and taught high
(01:02):
school social studies he later
co-founded Roxberry Preparatory Charter
School and served as a co-director for 5
years under his leadership students in
the school attained the highest scores
of any urban middle school in the state
and close the racial achievement gap
after acquiring his doctoral degree from
Colombia and a law degree from Yale he
served as New York State's education
(01:23):
commissioner from 2011 to 2014 dr king
left New York for a while to work in the
Obama administration as deputy secretary
of education from 2015 to 2016 and
joined Obama's cabinet as Secretary of
Education from 2016 to 2017 following
his work in the Obama administration Dr
king continued to advocate for increased
(01:43):
educational equity and access as
president and CEO of the education trust
he now serves as chancellor of the state
university of New York we're
interviewing Dr king in his role as the
author of his new book and not in his
role as the Sunni chancellor welcome
Chancellor King thanks so much it's
great to talk to you again today's teas
are Chancellor King are you drinking tea
by any chance no I just have water today
(02:06):
unfortunately I'm visiting Sunni
Purchase and I don't have access to my
usual supply of tea what a
disappointment
sorry about
that next time John I have constant
comment today which is appropriate for
podcaster and I am drinking a pure
peppermint tea today always a good
(02:27):
refresher at the end i'm jealous
so we invite you here today to talk
about your new book Teacher by Teacher
the people who change our lives which
provides a powerful testimonial to the
power of education to transform lives in
the introduction you note that you were
fortunate to have teachers and mentors
who helped guide you through critical
turning points in your life can you talk
(02:47):
about what led you to write this
particular book sure i thought about it
off and on over the years and you should
write a book is a thing that people
sometimes say to you you know but I
hadn't really committed to it until the
Washington Post did a story about my
family history and that prompted a book
(03:10):
agent to reach out to the journalist to
ask if he wanted to do a book about our
family history and he he was doing
another book project and said "No I
don't really want to do it right now."
but you should call John and see if he
wants to do a book and that got me
started on this journey and I really saw
it as an opportunity to talk about the
role that teachers have played in my
(03:31):
life and to really take on this thing
that we do in our culture where if
somebody has persevered through
difficult circumstances we make the
story about them and not about the
people who supported them and I really
wanted to shift that and say all the
(03:52):
opportunities that I've had the
extraordinary opportunities I've had all
trace back to teachers who intervened at
the right moment in my life i was very
very lucky to have these amazing
teachers and I wanted to tell their
story and to tell the story of the many
amazing teachers I've gotten to work
with over my career and at a time when
(04:12):
there's so many public questions about
the quality of education I think this is
extremely welltimed as your book
illustrates you've been involved with
education all of your life basically and
you note in your book that education
helped to define your family and shape
your family's identity can you tell us a
little bit about this sure so on my
mother's side my mother has a classic
(04:35):
New York story she was born in Pon in
Puerto Rico came to New York City as a
kid maybe about five or so with her
brother and my grandmother who was a
single mom who decided to come to New
York City to create opportunity for her
kids she went to work in a garment
factory and my mother learned English in
(04:56):
the New York City public schools was the
first in her family to go to college
went to Hunter in the Cutuney system and
really got to live exactly the dream
that my grandmother had and because of
my grandmother's hard work and faith I
have the life that I have today she made
that investment she made those
(05:17):
sacrifices so that my mother could go to
college my mother became a teacher and a
guidance counselor and it's really an
extraordinary story about what public
higher education makes possible what
Hunter made possible in my mother's life
my father grew up in a very segregated
New York City just after the turn of the
20th century the grandson of enslaved
(05:40):
people and he found a path through
education becoming a teacher and later
the first black principal in Brooklyn
and senior administrator in New York
City schools and his life could have
gone in a lot of different directions
being born in 1908 in New York City but
(06:01):
school provided this path for him and
part of the reason he knew to take that
path is that my grandmother his mother
had been one of the first graduates of
what is now the University of Maryland
Eastern Shore and H.B.CU on Eastern
Shore of Maryland and she was very
unique in being an African-American
woman with a college degree in that
(06:23):
early period and that made her path
possible and that helped shape my
father's path and so education has just
been so central to my family's whole
story i've read your book i really
appreciated hearing your story but also
I think it reflects a lot of our
students stories and I think it's
helpful to have these stories out there
(06:43):
so that others can see themselves in the
stories one of the things that you talk
about is your growing responsibility
that you had to take on as your father
slid into dementia can you talk a little
bit about the role school played in your
life during this period when you were
taking over many of these adult roles
like paying bills buying groceries at
such a young age so when I was little my
(07:06):
mom was really the main care provider in
our home my parents were very far apart
in age my father was 66 when I was born
my mother was 40 and my father was very
distant not very active with me i don't
remember for example ever playing catch
with my father and so my mother was my
anchor and she passed away from a heart
(07:29):
attack when I was eight and there are no
words to describe how devastating and
painful that moment was and then it was
just me and my father and he was distant
then but got more and more distant and
(07:50):
now I know it to have been Alzheimer's
but the time I didn't know why he was
acting the way he was but over the four
years that was just the two of us he got
more and more erratic some nights he'd
be sad other nights angry sometimes even
violent and I didn't know why i can
remember one night he woke me up 2 in
(08:10):
the morning told me it was time to go to
school and I was arguing with him saying
no dad it's not time to go to school and
he was pulling me on the stairs I was
clinging to the banister and I didn't
know why eventually he gave up and both
went back to sleep but that was what
home was like just this incredibly
unstable and scary place but school was
(08:31):
amazing school was this place that was
safe and consistent and nurturing and I
was very fortunate during that period to
have Mr asterile who's my teacher in
fourth fifth sixth grade he looped with
us and then a number of teachers but in
particular Miss D who was my seventh
grade social studies teacher and Mr ross
(08:52):
and Miss D really saved my life during
that period it gave me a sense of hope
and purpose and as my father got more
and more sick as you said I had to
figure out how to just keep our
household going bill started to come
marked late cancellation those kinds of
things and I realized I needed to do
(09:12):
something about that so my father's name
is same as mine John B King Senior I'm
John B King Jr so I started signing
checks and sending them in to try to
make sure that the power stayed on my
father had stopped going to the store
but I knew where he had kept cash in the
house for years and so I snuck in and
(09:34):
got some money there and started going
to the store myself to get food in our
house as a survival strategy it was just
trying to figure out like how to keep
things going with a deep sense of
hopelessness about life at home but
school was the place where I could
channel a sense of optimism and in this
(09:56):
part of the book you talk about some of
the teachers that had that effect on you
of giving you that sense of optimism and
one of the things I thought of when we
were reading this is that we had a
reading group this semester on 10 to 25
the science of motivating young people
by David Joerger and one of the things
he emphasizes is that a really effective
way to motivate adolescence is to let
(10:17):
them know that you have high
expectations for them that you believe
that they're capable of achieving those
expectations and to provide the support
that they need while treating them with
respect would it be fair to say that
those teachers you mentioned Mr astell
and Miss D and some other teachers
shared this approach to teaching oh
absolutely when I think about Mr
(10:38):
asterell's class it was rigorous we read
the New York Times every day starting
the fourth grade we learned the leader
and capital of every country in the
world we did productions of Midsummer
Night's Dream Shakespeare in elementary
school we did a production of Alice in
Wonderland i was the rose with big red
(10:59):
felt petals sticking out of my head we
went to the museum and the ballet and Mr
rosel is that kind of teacher who's
curious about you you know he's curious
about what you as a 8-year-old or a
9year-old or a 10-year-old what you
think about the world and he would have
these very serious discussions with us
where he really was so interested in our
(11:21):
take on things and we talked about hard
subjects we were in the midst of the
Cold War he created this
academically challenging enriching but
also loving environment you'd finish a
book he'd be there with the next you'd
finish a math problem he'd have the next
(11:41):
one that was a little bit harder he was
always pushing but in a spirit of love
and care and he didn't know what was
going on for me at home maybe had
suspicions but he didn't know but he
knew to create an environment that was
incredibly nurturing and I'm still in
(12:01):
touch with Mr austral he's just an
extraordinary human and Miss D was a
different kind of teacher she was my
seventh grade social studies teacher she
was a former actress or maybe she was
still acting at the time a huge
personality but again sort of expected a
lot of us at that point my father was
very sick and I would often sit in class
(12:23):
and worry about how he was doing what
was happening at home how we'd be able
to just keep going but in Miss D's class
I remember when we did a project where
we had to do an Aztec newscast and in
that moment the most important thing in
the world to me was to be the best Aztec
sports cer there had ever been and that
(12:44):
was because of the environment she
created and so I think those points from
Jerger are exactly right and are very
consistent with findings about the
research on retention completion some of
the research even around how to combat
stereotype threat and it always comes
(13:05):
back to that mix of high expectations
and communicating the confidence that
students can do it so one of the things
that you also talk about in your book is
that you lived in Long Island with your
brother after the death of your father
and then you applied and were accepted
at Philips Academy in Andover can you
tell us a little bit about your
(13:25):
experience there and how that affected
your interest in racial and
socioeconomic inequality so when I went
to live with my brother I was 12 and he
was 24 my dad had passed and I was
insistent that I wanted to go live with
my brother in part because when my dad
was very sick quite frequently I would
go spend a weekend with my brother and
it was super fun we'd go to the movies
(13:46):
we'd go bowling we'd eat out every meal
it was very exciting and fun turns out
that it's tough for a 24 year old to
raise a 12year-old and he was struggling
himself with sort of who he was going to
be and he drank a lot and he partied a
lot and he was a little bit rudderless
and it was very unstable and he had
(14:09):
these different difficult relationships
and pretty quickly I realized living
with him was not healthy and so then I
had to figure out what to do and I had a
friend from elementary school for PS276
who had gone to Grten with a scholarship
through Prep for Prep or Oliver one of
(14:30):
those programs that helps kids from New
York City go to New England boarding
schools and he was having good
experience he told me about it and I
thought "Okay well that's what I'm going
to do i'm going to figure out how to get
to one of these boarding schools." So a
cousin helped me with the application
and I ended up at Andover and I could
not have been more out of place as
(14:51):
context for folks Andover is where
George HW Bush went where George W bush
and Jeb Bush went it is everything you
imagine of a highly selective very
expensive very fancy New England private
school and I was a kid from Brooklyn who
(15:13):
hadn't really had a stable home life
since I was eight and I just really
struggled with the
nonacademic parts of campus life and I
really struggled with navigating the
issues of race and class on campus and
it was just very clear that the campus
(15:36):
wasn't working very hard to create a
sense of belonging for students of color
like me and there were these multiple
moments where I just felt so out of
place and so conscious of the ways in
which I was not I don't know if welcome
is quite the right word but not the
(15:57):
priority for the institution students
like me were not how the institution
thought of itself i describe in the book
an argument in a history class with a
teacher about the road scholarship and I
was making a point about Cecil Roads and
what he meant in the world and the
teacher was very dismissive of my
(16:20):
argument and it felt like this
unwillingness on his part to think about
how race and history interconnect
with our lives and our choices and that
was sort of emblematic of just a tension
that I experienced there and I got in a
lot of trouble so I didn't follow any of
(16:41):
the rules and I got kicked out and I
always say to people I'm the first US
Secretary of Education i've been kicked
out of high school but it was not the
right place for me at the time and you
recovered from that though and you moved
on to Harvard after graduating and there
you've described working on a number of
projects in the Mission Hill community
(17:02):
can you talk a little bit about some of
your experiences there yeah I was
fortunate that after I got kicked out I
went to live with my own uncle and they
really helped me get my life on track
but when I got to Harvard I felt out of
place a little bit and also definitely
imposttor syndrome like I had to write
two essays for my college application
the regular essay and why'd you get
(17:22):
kicked out essay that you have to write
if you've been expelled from a school
and so I remember as a freshman just
feeling like is somebody going to tap me
on the shoulder and say we made a
mistake that other essay fell under the
table we didn't see it you're not
supposed to be here it's like I was
struggling a little bit when I first got
there to find my place and I went to
like a volunteer fair
(17:45):
and they were recruiting people to teach
civics in local elementary and middle
schools and I was like "Oh that'll be
fun that'll be interesting because I
cared about civics and government and
politics i was interested in that and I
like the idea of community service so I
signed up to do it and it changed my
(18:06):
whole trajectory i ended up teaching
civics and then teaching conflict
resolution in schools i ended up running
a summer camp in uh public housing
development in Boston where we lived for
the summer as well as worked with the
students and families then that turned
into helping to run the afterchool
program and I spent probably more of my
(18:26):
time frankly in Boston than in Cambridge
doing public service work and engaging
with the community and that led me to
really conclude I wanted to be an
educator because I so loved doing for
other kids what teachers had done for me
so when you graduated Harvard then you
went to Columbia University Teachers
(18:48):
College you decided then to begin your
first year of teaching in Puerto Rico
can you talk about being a firsttime
teacher yeah so it's really hard i
always say to people that I've had a lot
of hard complicated jobs but the hardest
job I have ever had was first year
teaching because you don't have files to
fall back on you don't have the lived
(19:10):
experience to fall back on you want to
do a good job every day is just very
stressful so you're planning it's the
first time you're teaching each lesson
and you're planning every night you're
doing grading every night and like it's
overwhelming first year teaching is very
very hard i just have a special place in
my heart for first year teachers and I
(19:32):
was doing it in a context where I'd
moved to Puerto Rico i was teaching at a
school that was a private school largely
serving the students who were children
of the elite and my theory of going to
Puerto Rico was I was going to have this
cultural experience i was going to
really get to know the island more
(19:53):
obviously I visited as a little kid and
I wanted to have that experience i
wanted to work on my Spanish i
underestimated how overwhelming first
year teaching would be and how
all-consuming it would be i also
underestimated how difficult I would
find it to teach in a school where there
was so little focus on social
(20:15):
consciousness for the students there
were certainly some students who were
there on scholarship but the vast
majority of students were there because
their parents had tremendous resources
and they were largely going to college
in the United States when they graduated
mainland United States and they were
being prepared to be the next generation
(20:38):
of leaders but without a sense of
consciousness about the complicated
colonial relationship between Puerto
Rico and the United States without a
deep awareness of issues of race and
class and how they play out in Puerto
Rico and there definitely are colorline
issues in Puerto Rico but that was not
discussed and I really struggled with as
(21:00):
a social studies teacher who would bring
into my class a lot of complicated
issues of the history of slavery and
abolitionist movement and the civil war
and reconstruction and the dismantling
of reconstruction the emergence of the
KKK you know we were having these
intense conversations about race and
(21:20):
American history but yet not really
engaging around the issues just under
the surface in life in Puerto Rico so
that was very difficult alongside the
frustrations of just navigating first
year teaching and an environment where
there really wasn't much support i don't
recall anyone ever observing my class
(21:41):
and giving me any feedback and so that's
a challenge I think for a lot of first
year teachers they don't get the kind of
induction support they should and it's
true for higher ed too frankly right
that oftentimes higher ed faculty do not
get the experience of a lot of feedback
and support around pedigogy early in
their careers so it was very hard and I
decided that I wanted to be in a school
(22:04):
that had a clearer civic mission and I
wanted to reconnect with a community of
friends that had stayed in Boston and so
I decided to leave Puerto Rico and teach
in Boston and you mentioned that higher
ed may face similar problems i think the
problem may be even worse in higher ed
because at least when you begin working
in secondary ed you've had some teacher
(22:24):
training courses people in higher ed
when they go to teach have generally had
little or no training with the exception
of a few graduate programs that provide
it and there is gradually some progress
there but I think we still have quite a
ways to go in higher ed you mentioned
coming back to Boston and one of your
next roles was to work with Roxbury Prep
could you talk a little bit about your
(22:46):
work there and what made this
institution so very successful yeah as a
high school teacher one of the things
that I saw in Boston was that many of my
students were coming so poorly prepared
just behind kids coming into nth grade
with fifth grade reading skills fifth
grade math skills and really struggling
to get caught up enough to be in a
(23:09):
position to have real choices about what
to do after high school so starting a
middle school I hoped to be able to
build a stronger foundation for students
i also had been frustrated in the
schools where I'd worked as a teacher
about the lack of support around
teaching and learning and so I really
wanted to create a school that centered
(23:31):
excellence in teaching and learning so
Roxberry Prep we did a few things that I
think were really important structurally
we had three and a half weeks of teacher
professional development before the
school year would even begin time for
folks to plan to look at student work
now there's trade-offs less summer for
everybody but we built into the fabric
(23:52):
of the school this idea that you would
work very diligently as a community of
teachers on the art and science of
teaching and that was very helpful we
had a longer school day that made a huge
difference for our students just more
time for students who were coming to us
in middle school quite a bit behind but
(24:14):
we were able to have more time for
academics but also time for enrichment
activities because of our longer day but
on Fridays we ended at the same time as
the district so that we could create a
couple of hours for teacher development
time and so every week we were watching
videos of instruction we were looking at
(24:35):
student work together we were meeting in
grade level teams to talk about students
who were struggling and what supports
they needed or meeting in departments to
talk about instructional practice and
that routine of careful attention to
quality teaching I think helped us to
get really strong academic results for
(24:57):
students we also were very focused on
culture and building a culture as you
described about the Joerger work
building a culture of high expectations
with love and that communication of
belief in students and we're very small
we really spent a lot of time on picking
the right teachers to be a part of the
(25:18):
community and then really invested in
developing people and it was amazing it
was incredibly satisfying work i'm still
in touch with a lot of our students and
the teachers who worked with me then and
as you mentioned in the intro you know
we got really outstanding academic
results and send students on to really
(25:39):
great opportunities afterwards and that
led me to think about policy because
there were a lot of questions where I
was thinking how do we scale some of
what's working well that's such a great
transition into the next thing we wanted
to ask you about which is how does one
transition from being in a school into
policym so can you talk a little bit
(26:01):
about your experiences in the New York
State education department some of the
challenges that you faced and maybe some
of the big successes as well yeah so
after 5 years of leading Roxberry Prep I
was thinking about what's next and how
could I kind of have a bridge to policy
and I decided to go to law school at
that point I was working on my
dissertation and I decided to go to law
(26:21):
school with the thought that there was a
lot of lawyers in public policy and I
had the experience when I was first year
teacher the summer after my first year
of teaching i interned at the US
education department in the secretary's
office and I worked for the person who
was the adviser to the secretary on
teaching who had been a teacher of the
year but she was often the only teacher
in the room everybody else was lawyers
(26:43):
and so I had this sense that law school
could be a helpful set of skills and
bridge to public policy and that ended
up happening i ran a network of schools
i became deputy commissioner and then
commissioner and as commissioner you
really are thinking about scale 700
school districts in New York State we
(27:04):
had a huge infusion of funding from the
US education department early in the
Obama administration to do work on
strengthening the standards for teaching
and learning helping struggling schools
in high needs communities turn around
their performance building better data
(27:26):
systems so it's a great opportunity to
have those resources and to think about
scale work one frustration was we had a
very ambitious agenda in the state and
the Obama administration had a very
ambitious agenda for ways to accelerate
progress in schools and I think in some
ways that ambition got out ahead of the
(27:50):
capacity building and implementing
something like the common core became
very difficult because the work was
focused on changing teaching practice
but simultaneously there were changes to
the assessments simultaneously there
were changes to how teachers were going
(28:11):
to be evaluated it was a lot on the
system and I think I learned a lot about
the need to build buyin on major change
initiatives and to pace the work so that
the people doing the work are full
(28:31):
partners in it and I don't think we did
that well enough at the federal level or
in New York State and so there were a
lot of good things that we created
incredible curricular materials the
expeditionary learning English language
arts curriculum which is still to this
day generating outstanding results in
many schools around the country so that
(28:51):
was exciting a number of really creative
new schools were launched like the PEK
schools that were launched around New
York State where students graduate with
a high school diploma an associates
degree first in line for jobs with
employer partners in technology and
healthcare in advanced manufacturing
such interesting work but the politics
(29:14):
were very intense and there were ways in
which if we had sequenced the work
differently I think we could have
managed those politics more effectively
so one of the challenges I suspect is
that when you're working with a 4-year
administration there's an incentive to
try to get things through quickly which
can result in those types of challenges
(29:36):
because you know if you don't get them
in the next administration may not share
those values and beliefs so it's quite
understandable your next move was to the
US Department of Education where you had
some really impactful programs that you
had worked on could you talk a little
bit about that yeah so it's funny you
know I did a lot of work with the US
(29:57):
education department when I was
commissioner and got to know Arie Duncan
who was my predecessor as secretary
really well and Arie called me one day
and he said "Do you want to come down to
DC and be my deputy i'd really like you
to do that." And I said to him "Look I
love what I'm doing in New York but I'm
a huge fan of President Obama and you
and the work that you're doing and I'm
(30:19):
very torn will you promise me that you
will stay to the end of the
administration because if I'm going to
move my family to DC I want to know that
I'm going to be working with you?" And
he said "Oh absolutely 100% i'm going to
be there till the very last day turn out
the lights at the end." And I said
"Okay." All right so after I ultimately
decided I would do it and I came down to
(30:40):
be his deputy and then few months later
he comes into my office and he says I
need to talk to you about something and
he said you remember when I said I was
going to stay till the end well actually
I'm going back to Chicago and it was
totally understandable was important for
his family so an incredible outcome in
that the president asked me to be
(31:01):
secretary and what a privilege to serve
in President Obama's cabinet and to be a
part of such an impactful administration
and to get to work on really critical
education issues a couple of the things
that I'm very proud of that I did a lot
of work on one is cracking down on
predatory for-profit colleges that were
stealing from students stealing their
(31:24):
PEL grant money their GI Bill money
providing students often with a
substandard education often students
would not complete and yet they were in
debt to these institutions just really
awful and we put in place very stringent
rules we shut down some of the worst
actors built a process to cancel the
(31:47):
debt for the students who were taken
advantage of by these institutions now
of course a lot of that work was
undermined to your earlier point about
what happens when administrations change
a lot of that work was undermined during
the first Trump administration where
they brought in to oversee higher ed
policy literally the people who we have
been investigating days earlier that's
(32:10):
who they put in charge from that
predatory for-profit college industry
the Biden administration then had to go
back and redo some of the work that we
had done in the Obama administration and
we'll see where things go next on that
front but I was proud that we were
standing up for students and protecting
students we also had an initiative
(32:30):
called My Brother's Keeper which was
President Obama's initiative focus on
particularly boys and young men of color
and the challenges they faced and as
part of that work we launched an effort
to address really what had been a huge
public policy mistake in the mid '90s
which was in '94 the federal government
(32:51):
banned access to PEL grants for folks
who are incarcerated and this is
incredibly dumb public policy because
people who get any educational
programming while incarcerated are
substantially less likely to return to
prison and for folks who graduate with a
degree while incarcerated the recidivism
(33:12):
rate can be in the single digits so it's
a terrible idea to take away educational
programming in prison but it was part of
the period of tough on crime and
policies of mass incarceration and we
knew that we needed to fix it we didn't
think we could get Congress to do it we
just did not see a path in Congress so
(33:33):
we use our experimental authority under
the higher education act to create a
program called second chance PEL that
would allow 65 colleges and universities
on a pilot basis to use PEL grants for
students who are incarcerated and what
that did was create extraordinary
opportunities for those campuses but
also a proof point where we could bring
governors members of Congress state
(33:54):
legislators to see these programs talk
with students who are participating and
show that in fact these programs are
transformational and ought to be how we
think about criminal justice reform and
after I left the administration I was
leading a civil rights organization and
we continued with the civil rights
community the criminal justice reform
community to work on these issues and
(34:16):
ultimately we were able to persuade
Congress to change the law to repeal
that ban and now PEL grants are broadly
available to students who are
incarcerated and I talk in the book
about going to graduations in prisons
are just so incredibly moving because
you see not only how people are changing
(34:37):
their lives but how they are changed by
the experience of education and they
will describe just seeing the world
differently the different relationships
they're able to have with their family
members their kids and themselves
because of what they've learned through
their higher ed work it's incredibly
inspiring work and I'm really proud to
have been a part of that movement really
(35:00):
we've talked a bit about the impactful
work that the federal government can do
has done but there's been a decline in
public support for higher education over
the last decade what can we do to
rebuild political support for higher
education especially in this time it was
acknowledged that there's less faith in
(35:20):
institutions generally and so higher ed
has been caught up in what I think is a
broader cultural phenomenon of less
faith in institutions that said I think
we got to do a better job of delivering
and storytelling why I say we need to do
a better job on delivering is if you
went to one of those predatory
for-profit colleges and you left there
(35:42):
no degree no job
prospects deeply in debt you're going to
be pretty resentful of hiring and
everybody you know is going to be pretty
resentful of hiring if you went to a
private nonprofit or public college and
you didn't finish but you have debt no
degree feel stuck you're not going to
(36:03):
feel very good about higher ed
institutions and so one thing that we
need to do is we need to make sure that
the students who start have the support
to finish and that when folks finish
they see the economic benefit it's one
of the reasons I'm committed to the idea
of internships for all undergraduates
because I think it's really important
that students are able to when they
(36:27):
leave college
realize the intended economic benefit of
college of course we're preparing
citizens and we're preparing folks to be
well-rounded adults to lead fulfilling
lives and we want to make sure they're
able to support themselves and so
delivering on the promise of higher
education and getting better at
delivering is a part of the work but
(36:49):
then the other is storytelling i don't
think people realize how impactful
higher education is in every aspect of
American life that I don't think people
realize that when they're looking at
their phone that there are hundreds if
not thousands of things that are
happening inside of their phone that
were made possible by research that was
(37:09):
done on higher ed campuses or when
people go to the doctor and they're
getting their treatment i'm not sure
they realize that the reason that
treatment is even available is because
of research that was done on higher ed
campuses and so I think there's some
storytelling we need to do i was struck
that last week when Harvard decided to
(37:32):
push back on the demands of the
administration to really violate
principles of academic freedom one of
the things they did was they changed
their whole website so that now when you
go on the Harvard website it really
walks you through Alzheimer's research
cancer research research that helps our
(37:52):
military members be safer there just so
many things that research is making
possible and I thought that was really
smart on their part and I think that is
something we as a sector need to do a
much better job yes the change in the
Harvard website is really impressive and
it's a case I think that we all need to
make in our own ways too and your book
actually helps in this way too by
(38:14):
showing the impact that education had on
your life as well you conclude the book
with a discussion of tracing your
ancestry to enslaved people owned by
Thomas Griffith on a farm in Maryland
that was still owned by Griffith's
direct descendants can you tell us a
little bit about your experience of
visiting that family yeah well I had
(38:34):
mentioned earlier that my grandmother
graduated from University of Mount
Eastern Shore 1894 and asked reached out
and asked me to give the commencement
and it took a while different events for
me to do the commencement but during
that period as I was preparing for the
commencement I decided to do some family
research to try to flesh out the speech
(38:57):
and I worked with a woman who did
genealogy type projects at the Shamberg
the part of the New York City Public
Library that works on African-American
history and one night she sends an email
to me and my family we're sitting on the
couch watching TV and we get this email
and it says "I've discovered the place
where your great-grandfather was
(39:19):
enslaved and by the way it's less than
25 miles from where you live." Was in
Gaithersburg Maryland and I was living
at the time in Silver Spring Maryland
and oh by the way the property still
owned as you said by the direct line
descendants of the family that enslaved
your family and oh by the way the cabin
that your great-grandfather lived in as
(39:40):
an enslaved person with his family is
still standing on the ground and you
know it took your breath away right
because as an African-American you know
that there's this tie to the institution
of slavery but to think that you'd be
able to be in the place that was very
jarring and then this conversation pod
of like so now what do we do with this
information and like do you call ahead
(40:01):
do you send a note like how do you
introduce yourself to this family and
you have this complicated history and it
happened that my cousin was in town
maybe the next weekend to visit the new
Smithsonian the African-American History
and Culture Museum and they have a cabin
in their exhibit that they brought there
(40:22):
a cabin for enslaved people and that
prompted my cousin to say you know I got
to go see this place so she literally
went there with her husband she knocked
on the door and she said "Our people
were enslaved here." And that opened up
this whole relationship and journey that
we've had with the Beckers the family
two sisters who are descended from the
(40:44):
Griffiths and it's been a fascinating
journey one it's there's something quite
profound about standing inside that
cabin and
appreciating really the cruelty of the
institution of slavery the cabin is not
30 feet from the main house so you have
this profound sense that these were two
families living together in the same
physical space one owning the other
(41:08):
certainly in our family we also have the
profound sense of gratitude for the
journey of our family the fact that in
my family we went in three generations
from enslaved in that cabin to serving
in the cabinet of the first black
president incredible story about what's
possible in America we also have had a
journey in just getting to know the
Beckers and talking about this history
(41:29):
and realizing that even though they grew
up amongst the artifacts of the
institution of slavery called that cabin
the quarters they had not spent a lot of
time thinking about what the institution
of slavery was and meant and we've had
some really difficult conversations
around that but I think we've learned
(41:49):
they've learned from those conversations
and it's made me even more committed
that our schools higher ed institutions
have to grapple with the truth of our
history the complex truth the pain and
the progress and that to me is just
essential to the health of our democracy
(42:11):
and we're seeing a lot of push back on
that right now which is really really
troubling yes horrifying i mean some of
the things you're reading of people
taking down the Harry Tubman poster
taking books out of the library it's
chilling changing the history curriculum
in many states so that mentions of
slavery are being removed and so much
(42:31):
else yes during the confirmation
hearings for Secretary McMahon Chris
Murphy asked her "Do you think teaching
African-American history would violate
the president's executive order against
diversity equity inclusion?" And she
couldn't give an answer she said "I'd
have to look back at it." I mean that
(42:52):
was shocking to me and to be clear I
think it's 100% crystal clear that
teaching African-American history is
100% consistent with the law so I was
shocked by that exchange and consistent
with the history of our nation yes has
the benefit of being the truth
that's right this has been really
(43:12):
fascinating i think folks will really
enjoy reading your book to really see
the impact education can have through
the many stories of teachers that you've
shared and various aspects of our
education system in the US but we always
wrap up by asking what's next the big
daunting question of what's next yes yes
(43:34):
president Obama would always say he
would always quote Dr king and the line
that the ark of the moral universe is
long but it bends towards justice and I
truly believe that and I know there are
things happening today that can feel
like sliding backwards but I am
(43:56):
nonetheless optimistic that in the long
run we will continue America's history
of progress toward expanding the circle
of opportunity and so these are setbacks
but they are temporary and we have to
continue to build and educators have the
(44:17):
opportunity to do that every day with
their students the opportunity to build
towards a future that is more just more
sustainable and we just can't be
deterred from that by the awful
backsliding that we're seeing we have to
just double down on our efforts to
invest in a better future and it's
(44:37):
encouraging to see the protest
throughout the country right now yes
people standing up for the rule of law
for due process for academic freedom for
the important services that government
provides for our public servants there
are half as many people today working at
the US Education Department as there
(44:58):
were January 20th and my heart aches for
colleagues who I know were so committed
to being of service to the country who
many of whom were former teachers
principals faculty members at higher ed
institutions student affairs people at
higher ed institutions they came to the
department so that they could contribute
(45:19):
and they've been treated so horribly and
that's true across so many areas of
government where people have been tossed
aside who only want to serve i'm so glad
people are standing up for them well we
appreciate you spending time with us and
sharing your story and sharing pieces of
your book with us today thanks thanks
for the opportunity always great to talk
(45:40):
with you great talking to
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(46:01):
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