Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
When you're teaching in a public school, there can be so many questions around, what am Iallowed to do?
What am I not allowed to do?
Particularly when it comes to religion and religious topics in the public school.
So I'm so excited to be talking today with Heather Conan about how to be a light forChrist in the public schools without breaking the law.
Well, welcome back to the Teach 4 the Heart podcast where we tackle teaching challengesfrom a biblical perspective.
(00:25):
Today, I'm so excited to be talking with Heather Conan, but first, let me thank oursponsors.
This episode is brought to you, first of all, in partnership with the Herzog Foundation.
I also wanna thank our sponsor, the American Association of Christian Schools.
If you are looking for a teaching position, the American Association of Christian SchoolsPlacement Service is a free service to connect you uh with Christian schools that are
(00:50):
looking for teachers.
The AACS represents 720 conservative Christian schools, primarily affiliated withfundamentalist, Baptist, and Bible churches.
So this won't necessarily be the right fit for everyone, but if you're part of thesecircles, this could be just what you're looking for.
So if that's you, visit aacs.org and click the big red placement service box on the homepage.
(01:13):
Well, Heather, we're so excited to talk to you about this topic today, and thank you somuch for being here with us.
Absolutely.
It's something I'm really passionate about.
I'm excited to visit.
And Heather has so much experience with this and is also one of our, part of our partnerorganization, Christian Educators, which is who we do the Rise Up Summit with each year.
(01:33):
And you guys specialize, maybe real quick before we dive into this, can you just tell us alittle bit about how Christian Educators helps teachers in this way?
Yeah, yeah, we are a professional organization for Christians, predominantly in publiceducation.
And we support, connect, and protect them so that they can become thriving ambassadors forChrist in their schools.
(01:57):
And so we offer all sorts of different ways to encourage and help them walk in confidence.
Yeah, and there's so many amazing things Christian Educators does.
We'll probably talk about some of this here.
One of the things they do is an awake, awake conferences.
And I was privileged to attend one with Heather and some of the other ladies.
And on that part of what they did was they went through some of what are teachers allowedto do in public schools?
(02:21):
What are they not allowed to do?
And I said, this is so helpful.
We've got to talk about this on the podcast.
So Heather, though, before we kind of dive into that, here's one thing I wanted to ask youabout.
Are there any mindsets or habits
that you find helpful for Christian teachers to adopt when they think about, you know, howdo I live as a faithful follower of Christ while in the public schools?
(02:46):
Well, think, like one of the things that I think is a great mindset is to recognize thatyou're an ambassador for Christ.
Remember ambassadors, when we think about them typically, they're sent into a foreign landand they're sent to represent their kingdom, right?
(03:07):
And so when we are,
in a public education, in the public education field, it is kind of like a foreign land.
I would say a lot of people feel like it's more foreign than it has been.
And so that you are there, you're representing a different culture, a different kingdom,and you want to navigate that way as you're going through your career.
(03:31):
Yeah, that is such a great way of thinking about it, right?
We're representing Christ for his ambassadors and he's put us right where he wants us.
Sometimes it makes sense, sometimes it doesn't, but we can trust that we are where he hasus this year for this time.
So when I talk with teachers, particularly those that work in public schools, there's justa vast um variety in teachers' understanding of what can I do, what can't I do in a public
(03:58):
school.
I think sometimes there's a misnomer
that like the Bible or any religious thing is not allowed.
that just has to be completely not touched at all in public schools.
And I've learned particularly from working with Christian educators, that is actually notthe case.
So as I said, I it'd be really helpful to talk through what are some of the thingsactually as teachers we can legally do and we can't.
(04:22):
And so Heather, maybe you can first give us our legal disclaimer and then kind of diveinto some of the things that we are allowed to do.
Oh, absolutely.
Well, yeah, first of all, I'm not an attorney.
And again, Christian Educators is not a law firm, but we are knowledgeable and we haveconnections with people who know all the stuff.
(04:43):
But I would say I'm glad you brought that up, because personally, I, the first 15 years ofmy career had no idea what I could or couldn't do.
And quite honestly, I lived in a lot of fear and uncertainty and I felt very umdisconnected from my faith when I was at school because I really didn't know what I could
(05:12):
or couldn't do.
So this is really, really important topic.
And once I learned these things, opened up so many, it opened up my mindset to be able towalk in confidence.
in certain situations.
So yes, there are things that we can do.
And I think also in our culture, we focus more on what we can't do, right?
(05:37):
So the things we can do uh bring a lot of hope and encouragement.
And I think the one thing that I learned that just blew me away was that when students askme a question about faith or my faith, I can answer that with confidence.
I had many times where students would ask me, you know, do you believe in Jesus?
(06:03):
I was an elementary teacher.
Do you go to church?
Do you?
And I kind of froze because I thought, I don't know if I can answer that question.
So the opportunity to answer student questions really was exciting for me.
Yes, so making sure here, so we are allowed to answer age appropriate questions then,right?
(06:23):
When students ask them to us.
Real quick, before we dive into more of these though, there's a big overall law aboutbeing able to talk about religion, but not proselytizing, right?
Can you maybe explain that kind of overall rule?
Yeah, well, I mean, when you look at the First Amendment, it talks about the fact, well,in the First Amendment, it says, Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment
(06:49):
of a religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.
So in that First Amendment, as a government, we cannot establish a religion.
And when educators are in a public school setting, they have their government hat on.
(07:12):
And so they are not in their classroom saying, okay, this is the religion that we practicehere.
I can't open the day with devotions and prayer.
cannot, you know, get on that soapbox and declare the, you know, give an altar call in myclassroom, right?
And that is
(07:33):
for some people very frustrating.
Because as a Christian, we might say, well, I really want to be able to be free to shareall of those things.
uh But the Establishment Clause really is a protection.
So when you think about this, like in my classroom, if I'm a Christian and I want to startmy class with devotionals, all right, well, then let's say my students go to the teacher
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next door.
Well, they're
Muslim teacher.
now that teacher might say, okay, well now we're going to face east and we're going topray to Allah.
And then the next classroom they go to, it might be somebody who practices witchcraft.
And so they might say, okay, well now we're going to learn about curses or you know, like,so you're right, we cannot establish a religion.
(08:23):
Actually, as educators in public schools, we need to be neutral.
as far as religion goes.
uh So we can't be hostile either, right?
It's a neutral zone because in the rest of the First Amendment, there's the establishmentclause, like we can't establish a religion, but we can't prohibit the free exercise
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thereof.
And that's called the free exercise clause.
So we cannot prohibit our students from practicing their religion.
talking about their religion, writing about their religion.
We need to be neutral, but allow that freedom for our students.
(09:09):
And as educators, we're also free to talk to our colleagues about our faith.
We're free to, uh in sharing about ourselves, let our students know that we're aChristian.
That's okay to let them know.
It's okay to wear a cross necklace, right?
(09:31):
We can also, we have some freedom in that too.
oh
Yeah, so that's so helpful to keep in mind as we go through some of these details and asyou run across questions to think of both of those, right?
So there's, once again, just kind of recapping, we are not allowed to establish areligion.
So endoproselytizing is a big word.
Like you're not allowed to try to convert someone.
(09:52):
That's not considered legal.
But at the same time, you're not allowed to prohibit it.
So you're not allowed to prohibit students.
And that means that also like you are allowed, you don't have to...
push down and say, like, I have no religion.
have to pretend that you don't believe either.
So there's still freedom.
Just can't go out and say, establish this religion or try to proselytize or convincesomeone one way or the other.
(10:15):
So you've already mentioned we're allowed to answer questions.
We're allowed to talk with colleagues, right?
We're allowed to have, you know, we can do, we have a lot of freedom with colleagues, likepray, read the Bible.
There's no restrictions there, right?
Right, right.
Yeah, as a matter of fact, at my school, we had a prayer group that met every week.
We just met before our duty hours.
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So you do have to be respectful.
Like if this is my duty hour, this is where I have my hat on, right?
My government hat.
I need to be focused on the job that they've given me to do.
um But that doesn't mean that I also don't pray for my colleagues if they have a challengecoming up.
um But you know, formal meetings outside of our contract day.
(11:01):
Right, so obviously you can't let, oh, I'm praying now, so I don't have to do my job.
You have to do all of your duties.
But there's nothing keeping you from having those conversations or like at the lunch orwhatever.
It's not at work hours.
OK, what about teaching about religion?
So let's say you're teaching history or culture or literature and a religious topic comesup.
(11:22):
How can we and can't we talk about religion in those contexts?
Actually, in instruction, the Bible can be used as an instruction.
There's a lot of history, there's poetry.
You can use that in an instructional manner.
(11:43):
You can have a Bible in your classroom library.
It is literature, right?
The other amazing thing is there are things called primary sources.
So you can bring historical documents.
uh Every year there is the National Day of Prayer, that's in May, right?
(12:08):
There's a presidential proclamation that is written every year for the National Day ofPrayer.
Now you can use any of those sources as instructional tools.
uh Martin Luther King Jr.
uh
So you can integrate those without repercussion.
(12:31):
Right.
So you're allowed then, like I understand, to teach about religion, bring up the Bible ina literary, historical, or even teaching this is what this religion teaches, but it has to
be neutral, right?
So you can't say this is what you must believe, but you can teach this is, if it'sappropriate for the curriculum, this is what this religion teaches, or this is what this
religion teaches, or this is, so really, depending on what you teach, there are so manyways you might get a little bit creative and consider how can I bring this in?
(12:59):
Heather, can you talk for a moment about though, ah when we think as Christians, we knowthe word of God is powerful.
We know it's what our students need, but we're not allowed to proselytize.
But can you speak to a moment of the value of just still bringing knowledge, even if wecan't go all the way to the finish line and share the gospel or have an altar call, like
you said?
Yeah, my goodness.
(13:21):
um One way is through Proverbs.
You know, Proverbs has so much good um wisdom.
So for example, I had, you could use like a quote of the week, right?
And you can incorporate an ancient proverb into that quote.
(13:43):
And you can talk about that, right?
The fruit of the spirit.
Against these, there is no law.
You teaching about love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness,faithfulness, self-control.
Nobody would argue against those things.
m And so incorporating some Proverbs, incorporating the fruit of the Spirit, you can pullthat in quite naturally.
(14:14):
Yeah, and the powerful thing about that is, right, we sometimes do think, well, if I'm notactually able to give the gospel, like, what good does it do?
But God can use those seeds, right?
We might just be one step all along the way and God might be using these seeds.
They might come back later.
So I think, you know, think of that sower sowing the seed.
I don't think we should ever feel like, you know, it's not enough because God can use allof that.
(14:36):
Well, and also there's great literature, right?
That leads towards um kingdom conversations that uh if it's not me bringing it up, thestudents will.
No.
so if I bring up a piece of literature, that's a great, more reading this piece ofliterature, and I'm not, but the students ask the questions and the students are
(14:57):
discussing, the students are.
So talk for a minute though about that, because I do think sometimes there is thismisunderstanding that if students bring up a religious topic, we almost have to like,
okay, we have to step away from this, or like, oh, they can't do a report on that, orwhatever the case is.
So can you speak to them at first of all, the teacher's responsibilities in this way, andthen maybe.
(15:18):
how we can be creative and where we give our students opportunities for them to share.
Absolutely.
um So for example, there are many books that have religious themes to them, right?
So for example, The Lion Witch and the Wardrobe.
That was a book that I shared every year with my students.
(15:42):
And eventually, as you're talking about the characters, like for example, Aslan, whenAslan comes up, I'll just ask questions about Aslan.
you so what type of character is he?
Does he remind you of anyone?
And typically someone, one of the students will say, it's Jesus.
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And then all I just say is, really, why do you think that?
And I just ask questions and I create space for students to have conversations.
So I think it's really when those themes come up,
It's asking questions and then giving kids the freedom to share because they have completefreedom.
(16:30):
And that opens up the doors to so many great conversations that I'm a facilitator of thoseconversations.
I don't lead them.
don't if kids ask what I believe, I can tell them.
But otherwise, I kind of set the stage for the students to be the ones sharing.
(16:51):
Yeah, and that's just a really powerful, maybe different way than people have thoughtabout it, but that's really powerful.
And it's important to write as educators that we create a classroom where students feelthey have freedom because that is their freedom.
we actually would be wrong to stifle or just say, you can't talk about that or no, we haveto move on from that, right?
(17:14):
So that's really, really powerful.
This episode is brought to you in partnership with the Herzog Foundation.
Did you know that the Teach for the Heart podcast is part of the Herzog Foundation PodcastNetwork?
The Herzog Foundation Podcast Network is a hub for thought-provoking discussions,insightful narratives, and inspiring content around education from a Christian
perspective.
(17:35):
So if you enjoy this podcast, we encourage you to check out all of the Herzog Foundationpodcasts at herzogfoundation.com / podcasts.
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(17:57):
Now back to our program.
Now, what about things like
There's all kinds of opportunities with like student-led, clubs or student-led religiousactivities.
So what about if students, it's a student-led thing, a religious activity, how can ateacher be involved or not be involved in something like that?
Yeah, that's a great question.
(18:19):
First of all, think what I would love for everybody to understand is something called theEqual Access Act.
The Equal Access means that faith-based clubs have equal access to everything that secularclubs would have.
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All right, so if you at your school have
a variety of clubs and your students are starting a Christian club, they should have equalaccess to making announcements, hanging up posters in school, promoting their activities,
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all of that.
And so let's say that you are an advisor of an official school club that is Christian.
You are custodial in that manner.
So that means that you are a supervisor, you're sitting in the corner of the room, you'remaking sure nobody's bleeding, right?
(19:28):
Everybody leaves in one piece.
uh But the students are the ones leading it.
Now, of course, I have a great example of a teacher who told the students that yourquestions unlock my lips.
If you ask me a question, I can answer.
(19:48):
Otherwise, I'm going to just sit here and you guys lead it.
um And it has provided some really sweet opportunities for her because they know that.
Well, if I ask the teacher this question, she can help.
Right.
Now, they're also community groups.
Right.
So if it is a club that takes place after outside of school hours, oh
(20:14):
m like the Good News Club, which is something that's common at the elementary level.
Or sometimes FCA is like a before or after school type club.
Then you're a community member.
You can then have complete freedom to share the gospel, speak to things.
(20:35):
um It's just when it's an official school club, it's a little bit different.
Okay, so not diving too much into the legalities, but just trying to understand this.
So if it's an official school club, the students are leading it, they have freedom, you'rethere as an advisor, you're not leading it, but you can obviously answer questions.
(20:55):
um Contrast that though, if it's a community group coming in, yeah, like you said, goodnews, like before or after club, a release program, or I don't know, I won't go into all
legalities, but, or yeah, Federation of Christian Athletes.
So if you are a volunteer with them,
you can come back into the same school that you teach at because your teacher hat is offand your volunteer hat is on and now it's like a totally different story and you can share
(21:19):
freely because this is a community event not an official school event.
Am I understanding the basics of that?
Okay.
it's outside of your contract hour and it's not an official club.
Gotcha.
Okay.
So that might be something to consider or look into, which is super exciting.
That's very cool.
Please.
(21:39):
happened a week ago.
And in this um school official school club hat, and we had the educator, she was also theone who says if you ask me a question that unlocks my lips, right.
But if she had a situation come up where at her high school, there were all sorts ofposters hung about Ramadan.
(22:05):
in the halls explaining what it is kind of celebrations for the Ramadan season.
Well, her Christian, the Christian club said, gosh, you know, we would really love to beable to put some things up around Holy Week, around Easter, uh kind of acknowledging that
(22:27):
holiday.
So they went to their principal and they said, hey, we'd like to put up these posters.
And the principal refused to let them do it.
They said, no, this is, um you know, we're not going to put that up.
This is, don't know, remember their description why, but they refuse them that right.
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So now we have the advisor of the club who knows, who knows the freedoms that studentshave, who knows about the equal access.
uh And she is able
to get some legal counsel regarding this.
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And she's able to equip her students with the things that they need to present to theirprincipal um why they should legally be able to put up their um information.
So it was a beautiful story of these students being equipped by their teacher.
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the teacher being able to coach them and say, here's how we handle this respectfully as anambassador, share the story.
And they did this.
These students went, they were able to present.
They had legal counsel on how to do this.
And they were able to put up a whole display in the cafeteria about Easter and what that'sall about.
(24:01):
that's so cool.
I love that.
And that's really amazing example.
And I also love because I'm guessing Christian Educators was involved in helping withthat.
So those of you that aren't familiar with Christian Educators, if you're a member there,they have so many things.
They have kind of all that.
liability insurance that you need, but they also have counselors and legal advice.
(24:22):
So when you run into a situation, you're like, I don't know what to do about it.
You can call them up and they can coach you through it and how to handle it well, which isreally key, right?
Because we can often handle things not well.
We don't know what to do.
So having that advice is just so, so valuable.
That's amazing.
That's what a cool thing to be able to put up a display around Easter.
That's so neat.
That is awesome.
(24:43):
I love that.
So there's so much more we could talk to.
um I have one more question and then kind of open it up to anything else you wanted toshare.
But what about, you mentioned this briefly, but we get a lot of questions around, am Iallowed to wear a cross?
Am I allowed to have a Bible on my desk?
um What are the laws around those types of things?
Well, first of all, there was a Supreme Court case recently.
(25:06):
I don't know if you remember the Coach Kennedy case, but he was told that he could notpray at a football game.
And it went all the way to the Supreme Court, and he actually won.
And basically, what they were saying is, we are free to be who we are.
(25:27):
We have freedoms.
Now, we have to be really careful about those.
So for example, like a see you at the pool event, we are not to pray with students, but wecan be present, right?
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But we also can be who we can acknowledge our beliefs as well.
So yes, you can have a cross necklace.
You can, when you are introducing yourself, let's say at the beginning of the year,everybody shares five things about themselves.
(26:12):
I can say, oh, I'm a Christian or I'm a follower of Jesus in that description.
um If we are having snack in our classroom, I could silently just bow my head and say aprayer over it in the presence of my students.
I'm not saying anything to them.
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I'm just revealing who I am in a non-threatening way.
So we can do that.
When it comes to a Bible on your desk, one of the things that's really helpful is to knowwhat your district policy is around your desk.
If your desk is designated your personal space, you can put anything on your desk that youwant to.
(26:59):
So you could.
have verses on your desk, you could put a Bible there.
And oftentimes, that leads to questions from your students, right?
We want our students to ask us questions.
So they might ask what that book is, right?
And then you could share what it was or answer questions about it.
(27:22):
But that's really part of our responsibility is to know what is my district policy aroundthat.
Right, because if the desk were like an official like district, we don't want personalexpressions on there, then you're just complying with the policy.
It's not a particular religious or non-religious thing then.
Right.
Now, here's what you can run into, though.
(27:43):
em There are many, many, many people who don't actually know the law.
As a matter of fact, think a lot of our administrators don't know.
There's a whole religion policy in the Department of Education that will blow your mind asfar as the freedoms that you have, what is allowed.
(28:05):
But let's say
that your principal doesn't know about that and they see that Bible on your desk and theysay, uh I need you to put that Bible away.
All right, so you have a choice at that point.
You could, some people get really mad and they might stomp their foot and refuse to do itbecause they know that they have the legal freedom to do so.
(28:34):
But what we don't have,
freedom to do is be insubordinate.
so uh insubordination is, you can be fired for insubordination.
So what we just tell teachers is if your principal comes and tells you to put your Bibleaway, do it.
(28:55):
And then, you know, call an organization like Christian Educators, let them know what'sgoing on.
We can give you uh resources.
Because you can have the opportunity to share with your principal, like, hey, come backlater for a conversation and say, I'm not sure if you realize this, but here's this policy
(29:18):
and this is what this means.
And I would like to be able to do that.
It's respectful.
It's giving them the benefit of the doubt that they just don't know.
And um it's more of a bridge builder than, you know,
being defiant.
Yes.
and that's such a helpful way, that's such a helpful thing to keep in mind, right?
(29:40):
And that idea of like, yes, I did what you asked, I put it away.
And now we're circling back and having this conversation, the opportunities that couldthen unfold and how that could affect future conversations that happen also with other
teachers.
So yeah, that's such great wisdom in how to handle that.
Well, this has been so helpful, Heather.
Yeah, go ahead.
What else can you share with us here before we wrap up?
(30:02):
I'll share one more story.
And I think it is also your colleagues don't always know either, right, what the law is.
um And so there is, there was an example of a teacher who told the student, everybodycould bring their favorite book, right, their favorite book to class.
And the book was by Francis Chan about Jesus.
(30:26):
And the teacher told the student, I'm sorry, you can't read your book.
because we can't read about Jesus in school.
And so this little second grader went home feeling very dejected and told their parents,well, their parents are teachers and they know the law.
(30:46):
And so they were able to speak on behalf of their child and share with that teacher whatwas allowed to.
And that teacher was grateful she didn't know.
And so he was given the opportunity to read his book.
And of course, the students knew that it was rejected before.
(31:09):
Now they were very excited to hear, and he was able to read.
So we need to be that voice of giving people the benefit of the doubt and also just givingthem, giving your colleagues information, giving your administrators information to
protect those freedoms so we can walk in those.
(31:29):
Yeah, and that's so helpful to remember too that uh I think sometimes when this happens,we can almost have this idea of their being antagonistic, but a lot of times they might be
afraid, right?
They might just be like, I don't wanna get in trouble.
I'm gonna get in trouble if I allow this because that is just the social narrative is notaccurate in a lot of these cases.
So that's super helpful to keep in mind, just kind of expecting sometimes that pushback,not getting upset by it, but also not being intimidated by it either and willing to go
(31:56):
ahead and just have those polite.
but tricky, but polite conversations.
That's really helpful.
And Christian educators can absolutely help out with that.
yeah, so we're gonna link to quite a few resources here on the page.
So if you go to teach4theheart.com / 345, we're gonna link to Christian educators website.
(32:17):
If you wanna find out more about them, we're also gonna link to a little just pamphletthat they've put together that kind of lists.
out the dos and the don'ts in a little succinct form that you can kind of use forreference.
That's really, really helpful.
So we'll link to all that at teach4theheart.com / three, four, five.
Any final words of encouragement for us, Heather?
You I just, would say you are in your schools for such a time as this, and there's greatopportunity.
(32:46):
I hope you're encouraged, uh be prayerful, learn, m and be open to having conversationsand representing Christ well in these situations, right?
They're all opportunities.
Yes, absolutely.
And thank you guys so much for listening.
I really appreciate it.
I hope that this has been helpful.
(33:07):
If it has, please do share it with a colleague, a friend.
Go once again, teach4theheart.com / three, four, five.
You can share it there, whatever format is easiest for you.
Well, this episode has been brought to you in partnership with the Herzog Foundation.
All views and opinions are our own and don't necessarily reflect those of the HerzogFoundation.
Thank you so much.
(33:28):
We look forward to being with you again soon.
In the meantime, teach you remember God is at work in you and through you, and he's usingyou to make a difference.
Keep your eyes on him and teach for the heart.
When you're teaching in a public school, there can be so many questions around, what am Iallowed to do?
What am I not allowed to do?
Particularly when it comes to religion and religious topics in the public school.
So I'm so excited to be talking today with Heather Conan about how to be a light forChrist in the public schools without breaking the law.
Well, welcome back to the Teach 4 the Heart podcast where we tackle teaching challengesfrom a biblical perspective.
(00:25):
Today, I'm so excited to be talking with Heather Conan, but first, let me thank oursponsors.
This episode is brought to you, first of all, in partnership with the Herzog Foundation.
I also wanna thank our sponsor, the American Association of Christian Schools.
If you are looking for a teaching position, the American Association of Christian SchoolsPlacement Service is a free service to connect you uh with Christian schools that are
(00:50):
looking for teachers.
The AACS represents 720 conservative Christian schools, primarily affiliated withfundamentalist, Baptist, and Bible churches.
So this won't necessarily be the right fit for everyone, but if you're part of thesecircles, this could be just what you're looking for.
So if that's you, visit aacs.org and click the big red placement service box on the homepage.
(01:13):
Well, Heather, we're so excited to talk to you about this topic today, and thank you somuch for being here with us.
Absolutely.
It's something I'm really passionate about.
I'm excited to visit.
And Heather has so much experience with this and is also one of our, part of our partnerorganization, Christian Educators, which is who we do the Rise Up Summit with each year.
(01:33):
And you guys specialize, maybe real quick before we dive into this, can you just tell us alittle bit about how Christian Educators helps teachers in this way?
Yeah, yeah, we are a professional organization for Christians, predominantly in publiceducation.
And we support, connect, and protect them so that they can become thriving ambassadors forChrist in their schools.
(01:57):
And so we offer all sorts of different ways to encourage and help them walk in confidence.
Yeah, and there's so many amazing things Christian Educators does.
We'll probably talk about some of this here.
One of the things they do is an awake, awake conferences.
And I was privileged to attend one with Heather and some of the other ladies.
And on that part of what they did was they went through some of what are teachers allowedto do in public schools?
(02:21):
What are they not allowed to do?
And I said, this is so helpful.
We've got to talk about this on the podcast.
So Heather, though, before we kind of dive into that, here's one thing I wanted to ask youabout.
Are there any mindsets or habits
that you find helpful for Christian teachers to adopt when they think about, you know, howdo I live as a faithful follower of Christ while in the public schools?
(02:46):
Well, think, like one of the things that I think is a great mindset is to recognize thatyou're an ambassador for Christ.
Remember ambassadors, when we think about them typically, they're sent into a foreign landand they're sent to represent their kingdom, right?
(03:07):
And so when we are,
in a public education, in the public education field, it is kind of like a foreign land.
I would say a lot of people feel like it's more foreign than it has been.
And so that you are there, you're representing a different culture, a different kingdom,and you want to navigate that way as you're going through your career.
(03:31):
Yeah, that is such a great way of thinking about it, right?
We're representing Christ for his ambassadors and he's put us right where he wants us.
Sometimes it makes sense, sometimes it doesn't, but we can trust that we are where he hasus this year for this time.
So when I talk with teachers, particularly those that work in public schools, there's justa vast um variety in teachers' understanding of what can I do, what can't I do in a public
(03:58):
school.
I think sometimes there's a misnomer
that like the Bible or any religious thing is not allowed.
that just has to be completely not touched at all in public schools.
And I've learned particularly from working with Christian educators, that is actually notthe case.
So as I said, I it'd be really helpful to talk through what are some of the thingsactually as teachers we can legally do and we can't.
(04:22):
And so Heather, maybe you can first give us our legal disclaimer and then kind of diveinto some of the things that we are allowed to do.
Oh, absolutely.
Well, yeah, first of all, I'm not an attorney.
And again, Christian Educators is not a law firm, but we are knowledgeable and we haveconnections with people who know all the stuff.
(04:43):
But I would say I'm glad you brought that up, because personally, I, the first 15 years ofmy career had no idea what I could or couldn't do.
And quite honestly, I lived in a lot of fear and uncertainty and I felt very umdisconnected from my faith when I was at school because I really didn't know what I could
(05:12):
or couldn't do.
So this is really, really important topic.
And once I learned these things, opened up so many, it opened up my mindset to be able towalk in confidence.
in certain situations.
So yes, there are things that we can do.
And I think also in our culture, we focus more on what we can't do, right?
(05:37):
So the things we can do uh bring a lot of hope and encouragement.
And I think the one thing that I learned that just blew me away was that when students askme a question about faith or my faith, I can answer that with confidence.
I had many times where students would ask me, you know, do you believe in Jesus?
(06:03):
I was an elementary teacher.
Do you go to church?
Do you?
And I kind of froze because I thought, I don't know if I can answer that question.
So the opportunity to answer student questions really was exciting for me.
Yes, so making sure here, so we are allowed to answer age appropriate questions then,right?
(06:23):
When students ask them to us.
Real quick, before we dive into more of these though, there's a big overall law aboutbeing able to talk about religion, but not proselytizing, right?
Can you maybe explain that kind of overall rule?
Yeah, well, I mean, when you look at the First Amendment, it talks about the fact, well,in the First Amendment, it says, Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment
(06:49):
of a religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.
So in that First Amendment, as a government, we cannot establish a religion.
And when educators are in a public school setting, they have their government hat on.
(07:12):
And so they are not in their classroom saying, okay, this is the religion that we practicehere.
I can't open the day with devotions and prayer.
cannot, you know, get on that soapbox and declare the, you know, give an altar call in myclassroom, right?
And that is
(07:33):
for some people very frustrating.
Because as a Christian, we might say, well, I really want to be able to be free to shareall of those things.
uh But the Establishment Clause really is a protection.
So when you think about this, like in my classroom, if I'm a Christian and I want to startmy class with devotionals, all right, well, then let's say my students go to the teacher
(07:58):
next door.
Well, they're
Muslim teacher.
now that teacher might say, okay, well now we're going to face east and we're going topray to Allah.
And then the next classroom they go to, it might be somebody who practices witchcraft.
And so they might say, okay, well now we're going to learn about curses or you know, like,so you're right, we cannot establish a religion.
(08:23):
Actually, as educators in public schools, we need to be neutral.
as far as religion goes.
uh So we can't be hostile either, right?
It's a neutral zone because in the rest of the First Amendment, there's the establishmentclause, like we can't establish a religion, but we can't prohibit the free exercise
(08:48):
thereof.
And that's called the free exercise clause.
So we cannot prohibit our students from practicing their religion.
talking about their religion, writing about their religion.
We need to be neutral, but allow that freedom for our students.
(09:09):
And as educators, we're also free to talk to our colleagues about our faith.
We're free to, uh in sharing about ourselves, let our students know that we're aChristian.
That's okay to let them know.
It's okay to wear a cross necklace, right?
(09:31):
We can also, we have some freedom in that too.
oh
Yeah, so that's so helpful to keep in mind as we go through some of these details and asyou run across questions to think of both of those, right?
So there's, once again, just kind of recapping, we are not allowed to establish areligion.
So endoproselytizing is a big word.
Like you're not allowed to try to convert someone.
(09:52):
That's not considered legal.
But at the same time, you're not allowed to prohibit it.
So you're not allowed to prohibit students.
And that means that also like you are allowed, you don't have to...
push down and say, like, I have no religion.
have to pretend that you don't believe either.
So there's still freedom.
Just can't go out and say, establish this religion or try to proselytize or convincesomeone one way or the other.
(10:15):
So you've already mentioned we're allowed to answer questions.
We're allowed to talk with colleagues, right?
We're allowed to have, you know, we can do, we have a lot of freedom with colleagues, likepray, read the Bible.
There's no restrictions there, right?
Right, right.
Yeah, as a matter of fact, at my school, we had a prayer group that met every week.
We just met before our duty hours.
(10:37):
So you do have to be respectful.
Like if this is my duty hour, this is where I have my hat on, right?
My government hat.
I need to be focused on the job that they've given me to do.
um But that doesn't mean that I also don't pray for my colleagues if they have a challengecoming up.
um But you know, formal meetings outside of our contract day.
(11:01):
Right, so obviously you can't let, oh, I'm praying now, so I don't have to do my job.
You have to do all of your duties.
But there's nothing keeping you from having those conversations or like at the lunch orwhatever.
It's not at work hours.
OK, what about teaching about religion?
So let's say you're teaching history or culture or literature and a religious topic comesup.
(11:22):
How can we and can't we talk about religion in those contexts?
Actually, in instruction, the Bible can be used as an instruction.
There's a lot of history, there's poetry.
You can use that in an instructional manner.
(11:43):
You can have a Bible in your classroom library.
It is literature, right?
The other amazing thing is there are things called primary sources.
So you can bring historical documents.
uh Every year there is the National Day of Prayer, that's in May, right?
(12:08):
There's a presidential proclamation that is written every year for the National Day ofPrayer.
Now you can use any of those sources as instructional tools.
uh Martin Luther King Jr.
uh
So you can integrate those without repercussion.
(12:31):
Right.
So you're allowed then, like I understand, to teach about religion, bring up the Bible ina literary, historical, or even teaching this is what this religion teaches, but it has to
be neutral, right?
So you can't say this is what you must believe, but you can teach this is, if it'sappropriate for the curriculum, this is what this religion teaches, or this is what this
religion teaches, or this is, so really, depending on what you teach, there are so manyways you might get a little bit creative and consider how can I bring this in?
(12:59):
Heather, can you talk for a moment about though, ah when we think as Christians, we knowthe word of God is powerful.
We know it's what our students need, but we're not allowed to proselytize.
But can you speak to a moment of the value of just still bringing knowledge, even if wecan't go all the way to the finish line and share the gospel or have an altar call, like
you said?
Yeah, my goodness.
(13:21):
um One way is through Proverbs.
You know, Proverbs has so much good um wisdom.
So for example, I had, you could use like a quote of the week, right?
And you can incorporate an ancient proverb into that quote.
(13:43):
And you can talk about that, right?
The fruit of the spirit.
Against these, there is no law.
You teaching about love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness,faithfulness, self-control.
Nobody would argue against those things.
m And so incorporating some Proverbs, incorporating the fruit of the Spirit, you can pullthat in quite naturally.
(14:14):
Yeah, and the powerful thing about that is, right, we sometimes do think, well, if I'm notactually able to give the gospel, like, what good does it do?
But God can use those seeds, right?
We might just be one step all along the way and God might be using these seeds.
They might come back later.
So I think, you know, think of that sower sowing the seed.
I don't think we should ever feel like, you know, it's not enough because God can use allof that.
(14:36):
Well, and also there's great literature, right?
That leads towards um kingdom conversations that uh if it's not me bringing it up, thestudents will.
No.
so if I bring up a piece of literature, that's a great, more reading this piece ofliterature, and I'm not, but the students ask the questions and the students are
(14:57):
discussing, the students are.
So talk for a minute though about that, because I do think sometimes there is thismisunderstanding that if students bring up a religious topic, we almost have to like,
okay, we have to step away from this, or like, oh, they can't do a report on that, orwhatever the case is.
So can you speak to them at first of all, the teacher's responsibilities in this way, andthen maybe.
(15:18):
how we can be creative and where we give our students opportunities for them to share.
Absolutely.
um So for example, there are many books that have religious themes to them, right?
So for example, The Lion Witch and the Wardrobe.
That was a book that I shared every year with my students.
(15:42):
And eventually, as you're talking about the characters, like for example, Aslan, whenAslan comes up, I'll just ask questions about Aslan.
you so what type of character is he?
Does he remind you of anyone?
And typically someone, one of the students will say, it's Jesus.
(16:05):
And then all I just say is, really, why do you think that?
And I just ask questions and I create space for students to have conversations.
So I think it's really when those themes come up,
It's asking questions and then giving kids the freedom to share because they have completefreedom.
(16:30):
And that opens up the doors to so many great conversations that I'm a facilitator of thoseconversations.
I don't lead them.
don't if kids ask what I believe, I can tell them.
But otherwise, I kind of set the stage for the students to be the ones sharing.
(16:51):
Yeah, and that's just a really powerful, maybe different way than people have thoughtabout it, but that's really powerful.
And it's important to write as educators that we create a classroom where students feelthey have freedom because that is their freedom.
we actually would be wrong to stifle or just say, you can't talk about that or no, we haveto move on from that, right?
(17:14):
So that's really, really powerful.
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(17:35):
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(17:57):
Now back to our program.
Now, what about things like
There's all kinds of opportunities with like student-led, clubs or student-led religiousactivities.
So what about if students, it's a student-led thing, a religious activity, how can ateacher be involved or not be involved in something like that?
Yeah, that's a great question.
(18:19):
First of all, think what I would love for everybody to understand is something called theEqual Access Act.
The Equal Access means that faith-based clubs have equal access to everything that secularclubs would have.
(18:41):
All right, so if you at your school have
a variety of clubs and your students are starting a Christian club, they should have equalaccess to making announcements, hanging up posters in school, promoting their activities,
(19:04):
all of that.
And so let's say that you are an advisor of an official school club that is Christian.
You are custodial in that manner.
So that means that you are a supervisor, you're sitting in the corner of the room, you'remaking sure nobody's bleeding, right?
(19:28):
Everybody leaves in one piece.
uh But the students are the ones leading it.
Now, of course, I have a great example of a teacher who told the students that yourquestions unlock my lips.
If you ask me a question, I can answer.
(19:48):
Otherwise, I'm going to just sit here and you guys lead it.
um And it has provided some really sweet opportunities for her because they know that.
Well, if I ask the teacher this question, she can help.
Right.
Now, they're also community groups.
Right.
So if it is a club that takes place after outside of school hours, oh
(20:14):
m like the Good News Club, which is something that's common at the elementary level.
Or sometimes FCA is like a before or after school type club.
Then you're a community member.
You can then have complete freedom to share the gospel, speak to things.
(20:35):
um It's just when it's an official school club, it's a little bit different.
Okay, so not diving too much into the legalities, but just trying to understand this.
So if it's an official school club, the students are leading it, they have freedom, you'rethere as an advisor, you're not leading it, but you can obviously answer questions.
(20:55):
um Contrast that though, if it's a community group coming in, yeah, like you said, goodnews, like before or after club, a release program, or I don't know, I won't go into all
legalities, but, or yeah, Federation of Christian Athletes.
So if you are a volunteer with them,
you can come back into the same school that you teach at because your teacher hat is offand your volunteer hat is on and now it's like a totally different story and you can share
(21:19):
freely because this is a community event not an official school event.
Am I understanding the basics of that?
Okay.
it's outside of your contract hour and it's not an official club.
Gotcha.
Okay.
So that might be something to consider or look into, which is super exciting.
That's very cool.
Please.
(21:39):
happened a week ago.
And in this um school official school club hat, and we had the educator, she was also theone who says if you ask me a question that unlocks my lips, right.
But if she had a situation come up where at her high school, there were all sorts ofposters hung about Ramadan.
(22:05):
in the halls explaining what it is kind of celebrations for the Ramadan season.
Well, her Christian, the Christian club said, gosh, you know, we would really love to beable to put some things up around Holy Week, around Easter, uh kind of acknowledging that
(22:27):
holiday.
So they went to their principal and they said, hey, we'd like to put up these posters.
And the principal refused to let them do it.
They said, no, this is, um you know, we're not going to put that up.
This is, don't know, remember their description why, but they refuse them that right.
(22:52):
So now we have the advisor of the club who knows, who knows the freedoms that studentshave, who knows about the equal access.
uh And she is able
to get some legal counsel regarding this.
(23:12):
And she's able to equip her students with the things that they need to present to theirprincipal um why they should legally be able to put up their um information.
So it was a beautiful story of these students being equipped by their teacher.
(23:35):
the teacher being able to coach them and say, here's how we handle this respectfully as anambassador, share the story.
And they did this.
These students went, they were able to present.
They had legal counsel on how to do this.
And they were able to put up a whole display in the cafeteria about Easter and what that'sall about.
(24:01):
that's so cool.
I love that.
And that's really amazing example.
And I also love because I'm guessing Christian Educators was involved in helping withthat.
So those of you that aren't familiar with Christian Educators, if you're a member there,they have so many things.
They have kind of all that.
liability insurance that you need, but they also have counselors and legal advice.
(24:22):
So when you run into a situation, you're like, I don't know what to do about it.
You can call them up and they can coach you through it and how to handle it well, which isreally key, right?
Because we can often handle things not well.
We don't know what to do.
So having that advice is just so, so valuable.
That's amazing.
That's what a cool thing to be able to put up a display around Easter.
That's so neat.
That is awesome.
(24:43):
I love that.
So there's so much more we could talk to.
um I have one more question and then kind of open it up to anything else you wanted toshare.
But what about, you mentioned this briefly, but we get a lot of questions around, am Iallowed to wear a cross?
Am I allowed to have a Bible on my desk?
um What are the laws around those types of things?
Well, first of all, there was a Supreme Court case recently.
(25:06):
I don't know if you remember the Coach Kennedy case, but he was told that he could notpray at a football game.
And it went all the way to the Supreme Court, and he actually won.
And basically, what they were saying is, we are free to be who we are.
(25:27):
We have freedoms.
Now, we have to be really careful about those.
So for example, like a see you at the pool event, we are not to pray with students, but wecan be present, right?
(25:50):
But we also can be who we can acknowledge our beliefs as well.
So yes, you can have a cross necklace.
You can, when you are introducing yourself, let's say at the beginning of the year,everybody shares five things about themselves.
(26:12):
I can say, oh, I'm a Christian or I'm a follower of Jesus in that description.
um If we are having snack in our classroom, I could silently just bow my head and say aprayer over it in the presence of my students.
I'm not saying anything to them.
(26:34):
I'm just revealing who I am in a non-threatening way.
So we can do that.
When it comes to a Bible on your desk, one of the things that's really helpful is to knowwhat your district policy is around your desk.
If your desk is designated your personal space, you can put anything on your desk that youwant to.
(26:59):
So you could.
have verses on your desk, you could put a Bible there.
And oftentimes, that leads to questions from your students, right?
We want our students to ask us questions.
So they might ask what that book is, right?
And then you could share what it was or answer questions about it.
(27:22):
But that's really part of our responsibility is to know what is my district policy aroundthat.
Right, because if the desk were like an official like district, we don't want personalexpressions on there, then you're just complying with the policy.
It's not a particular religious or non-religious thing then.
Right.
Now, here's what you can run into, though.
(27:43):
em There are many, many, many people who don't actually know the law.
As a matter of fact, think a lot of our administrators don't know.
There's a whole religion policy in the Department of Education that will blow your mind asfar as the freedoms that you have, what is allowed.
(28:05):
But let's say
that your principal doesn't know about that and they see that Bible on your desk and theysay, uh I need you to put that Bible away.
All right, so you have a choice at that point.
You could, some people get really mad and they might stomp their foot and refuse to do itbecause they know that they have the legal freedom to do so.
(28:34):
But what we don't have,
freedom to do is be insubordinate.
so uh insubordination is, you can be fired for insubordination.
So what we just tell teachers is if your principal comes and tells you to put your Bibleaway, do it.
(28:55):
And then, you know, call an organization like Christian Educators, let them know what'sgoing on.
We can give you uh resources.
Because you can have the opportunity to share with your principal, like, hey, come backlater for a conversation and say, I'm not sure if you realize this, but here's this policy
(29:18):
and this is what this means.
And I would like to be able to do that.
It's respectful.
It's giving them the benefit of the doubt that they just don't know.
And um it's more of a bridge builder than, you know,
being defiant.
Yes.
and that's such a helpful way, that's such a helpful thing to keep in mind, right?
(29:40):
And that idea of like, yes, I did what you asked, I put it away.
And now we're circling back and having this conversation, the opportunities that couldthen unfold and how that could affect future conversations that happen also with other
teachers.
So yeah, that's such great wisdom in how to handle that.
Well, this has been so helpful, Heather.
Yeah, go ahead.
What else can you share with us here before we wrap up?
(30:02):
I'll share one more story.
And I think it is also your colleagues don't always know either, right, what the law is.
um And so there is, there was an example of a teacher who told the student, everybodycould bring their favorite book, right, their favorite book to class.
And the book was by Francis Chan about Jesus.
(30:26):
And the teacher told the student, I'm sorry, you can't read your book.
because we can't read about Jesus in school.
And so this little second grader went home feeling very dejected and told their parents,well, their parents are teachers and they know the law.
(30:46):
And so they were able to speak on behalf of their child and share with that teacher whatwas allowed to.
And that teacher was grateful she didn't know.
And so he was given the opportunity to read his book.
And of course, the students knew that it was rejected before.
(31:09):
Now they were very excited to hear, and he was able to read.
So we need to be that voice of giving people the benefit of the doubt and also just givingthem, giving your colleagues information, giving your administrators information to
protect those freedoms so we can walk in those.
(31:29):
Yeah, and that's so helpful to remember too that uh I think sometimes when this happens,we can almost have this idea of their being antagonistic, but a lot of times they might be
afraid, right?
They might just be like, I don't wanna get in trouble.
I'm gonna get in trouble if I allow this because that is just the social narrative is notaccurate in a lot of these cases.
So that's super helpful to keep in mind, just kind of expecting sometimes that pushback,not getting upset by it, but also not being intimidated by it either and willing to go
(31:56):
ahead and just have those polite.
but tricky, but polite conversations.
That's really helpful.
And Christian educators can absolutely help out with that.
yeah, so we're gonna link to quite a few resources here on the page.
So if you go to teach4theheart.com / 345, we're gonna link to Christian educators website.
(32:17):
If you wanna find out more about them, we're also gonna link to a little just pamphletthat they've put together that kind of lists.
out the dos and the don'ts in a little succinct form that you can kind of use forreference.
That's really, really helpful.
So we'll link to all that at teach4theheart.com / three, four, five.
Any final words of encouragement for us, Heather?
You I just, would say you are in your schools for such a time as this, and there's greatopportunity.
(32:46):
I hope you're encouraged, uh be prayerful, learn, m and be open to having conversationsand representing Christ well in these situations, right?
They're all opportunities.
Yes, absolutely.
And thank you guys so much for listening.
I really appreciate it.
I hope that this has been helpful.
(33:07):
If it has, please do share it with a colleague, a friend.
Go once again, teach4theheart.com / three, four, five.
You can share it there, whatever format is easiest for you.
Well, this episode has been brought to you in partnership with the Herzog Foundation.
All views and opinions are our own and don't necessarily reflect those of the HerzogFoundation.
Thank you so much.
(33:28):
We look forward to being with you again soon.
In the meantime, teach you remember God is at work in you and through you, and he's usingyou to make a difference.
Keep your eyes on him and teach for the heart.
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