February 11, 2025 • 38 mins
What will be trending in education in 2025?
Host Kailey Rhodes sits down with Classcraft cofounder and HMH’s SVP of product management and strategy Shawn Young to discuss ed predictions. They cover topics like simplifying EdTech, leaning on AI tech tools to build teacher-student relationships, and bringing the "human element" into technology.
Teachers in America profiles K–12 teachers across the country. Hear firsthand from the people who are shaping young lives in the classroom every day. If you or someone you know would be a good candidate for Teachers in America, please email us at shaped@hmhco.com.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hi, I'm Kaylee Rhodes , and this is Teachers in
America.
Welcome to our mini-sodespotlighting education trends to
watch in 2025.
Every year, we talk withexperts in ed tech, curriculum,
education, leadership,professional learning and so
many other fields, and theyshare their forecast for
education trends in the yearahead.
Here's a prediction from lastyear that's still worth watching
(00:28):
.
Districts will provideprofessional development in AI.
Fingers crossed right teachers.
This prediction from HMH'sSenior Vice President of
Research, fran C Alexander, isstill one to watch in 2025.
And we know from our recentsurvey that educators are asking
for training in AI and many ofthem see how it can be useful in
(00:48):
their teaching.
If you want to hear more aboutthat survey and what educators
really think about technology inthe classroom, check out our
last EdTrends mini-sode.
The link is in the show notes,along with the links to all our
other EdTrends blogs, so you cansee how previous predictions
panned out.
So today we're going to giveyou a rundown of the latest
predictions to keep your eye onin 2025.
(01:10):
And a very special guest hereto weigh in is Sean Young, hmh's
Senior Vice President ofProduct Management and Strategy,
core Classrooms and IntegratedSolutions.
Wow, sean, you have your pulseon a ton of things.
So can you introduce yourself?
Tell us a bit about yourbackground in education and your
role here at HMH?
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Sure.
Thanks for having me.
So.
Currently at HMH, I'm runningour efforts around supporting
teachers' delivery of curriculumand instruction within a
classroom and integrating ourvarious broad based portfolio
into that experience.
But I wasn't always doing thatand I actually I started off as
a teacher and I'm a physicsmajor actually and realized I
(02:02):
didn't want to work in a lab andended up teaching high school
for nine years.
I got certified as, with amaster's in ed during that time
and was really extremely focusedon making school meaningful for
kids, and you know I had had.
I didn't love high school.
I found it kind of meaninglesswhen I was a learner.
(02:26):
So my mission as an educatorwas really to respect the fact
that my students had to be thereand make it as meaningful as
possible, and I did that through.
You know, I built 180 days ofproject-based learning for
science.
We did all kinds of cool stuff,like you know build cannons and
shoot them off the roof andthat type of stuff, and, and and
(02:49):
.
Throughout that I was also adeveloper.
So I had a.
I had a consulting business forthat same period where I built
applications and websites forcustomers, and, and and I was
building apps for myself at thesame time.
So, yeah, how do you?
You know teacher by day,programmer by night?
How do you do those two things?
What you do is you get reallyeffective.
(03:09):
So I started building a lot ofapps to be a more effective
teacher, and that's how I builtClasscraft, which was really a
solution for classroommanagement, using the principles
of games and motivation tocompletely transform how
students participated in theclassroom.
And that was just a sideproject.
(03:31):
But over after three years oftweaking it, I was like man,
this is really changing how kidsare showing up in the classroom
, and so I made a website totalk about it, just to inspire
other teachers.
And the day that website wentonline, 130,000 people came to
the website.
It started trending on Reddit.
It was on the front page ofReddit gaming for two weeks and
(03:52):
and then the BBC called to do apiece on like games and
education and um, and it justtook off and so, uh, that's kind
of how you know it became acompany and I started that, you
know, with my, my brother and mydad uh, my dad's on the finance
side, my brother's creativedirector and we just started
that and we scaled that companyto, um, 12 million kids in, uh,
(04:17):
a hundred plus countries.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
And oh my gosh.
Yeah, and now do we have thebenefit of that?
That craft at HMH.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
That's right.
So, um, and so that's where Iwas coming to.
How did we end up here?
Um, you know, the our it's a,it's a really good, you know,
kind of marriage, because ourexpertise was really on the
classroom management.
Uh, how do you, how do you helpteachers run the best classroom
possible?
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Right.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
But we didn't have any programs or content.
So you know know, a lot of workfor teachers they had to, yeah,
copy paste over their stuff.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
They had to like configure it creation problem
that's it exactly.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
And on the hmh side we have these really great
programs, but up until now wehaven't, you know, been um
supporting them through thedigital delivery of those
programs, like running theclassroom.
And so, putting those twothings together, uh, created HMH
, class craft, which we launchedlast July, and um, which has
(05:13):
built in, you know, all thelessons already built in the the
uh, the core programs alreadyuh, pre-made for teachers.
So super simple If you're abeginner teacher, you just press
teach and you get going.
If a more experienced teacher,then you get the benefit of all
these tools.
Where you can, you know,leverage the, the data coming in
from students responses to, tobe able to, on the fly, adapt
(05:34):
your instruction so um reallybeing able to blend the gap
between, you know, the printworld, the the analog world of
education, and adding on top ofthat, the curriculum world and
the classroom management world,and that's right exactly Adding
a digital layer to that.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
We can't just keep giving teachers discrete tools.
We have to help them integratebecause we have to remember that
teaching is one big improv gameand moment to moment is fast.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
They don't have time to wrangle on these separate
experiences Exactly and it'sinteresting.
Oh, go ahead, go ahead.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
No, you just said it's interesting, so you got me.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
All right.
It's interesting because one ofthe things you could do by
creating tools that helpteachers run their classroom is
start creating very rich datasources of what's happening in
the classroom.
Very rich data sources ofwhat's happening in the
classroom.
So you know the I kind of I'vebeen calling it stealth
(06:29):
assessment, where you knowyou're you're not actually
assessing students, it's not youknow a quiz or anything but
you're gathering a lot ofinformation about them that you
can use to.
If we, if you're part of anintegrated whole like HMH is,
you can start doing things likerecommend you know the next step
in a lesson.
You can recommenddifferentiation resources, you
(06:49):
can recommend teachingstrategies, and you're able to
do that if you know what ateacher has taught, how they
taught it and how students arereceiving it and how they're
doing against it.
And so that data becomes theconnective tissue between being
able to help teachers run theirclassroom but also do it in a
(07:11):
way that is super easy and helpsthem make the best decisions
for their students.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
And helps prevent students from falling through
the cracks.
I'm a middle school mathteacher that's my background and
I always had these momentswhere I would be brushing my
teeth or going to sleep and Iwould be like, oh my gosh,
Elliot needs this workbook page,and it would just be like I
really need someone to help me,and it would be really great if
(07:40):
that help was linked to Elliot'sactual experience in addition
to my own classroom observations.
It's an ecosystem right, andthe more we create digital tools
that mimic and support anecosystem and not just like
these discrete experiences, themore we're going to make a
difference in the classroom.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
That's right and you know, and I think we're in a
super unique time to be able todo that.
I think the you know kind ofthe linchpin to being able to do
that is to provide teacherswith tools they really want to
use so that make their lifeeasier.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Yeah, that they want to use.
That's it yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Because it's not like , oh, you have to use this.
It's like, oh, no, cool, I dowant to teach from here and in
the background I'm getting data.
You know, quote, unquote forfree, I don't have to then go.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
What do I do with this?
Yeah, because they've got somuch to figure out.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Well, and that's where AI becomes super
interesting and that's why Ithink we have a very unique
opportunity right now.
To you know, AI is being usedin a lot of ways to help
teachers, you know, createresources or give students
(08:47):
feedback doing.
We're seeing a lot of those usecases.
I'm really excited about um thecapacity that we have with the
data to be able to do things, tounlock um, you know,
instructional contexts that areactually wouldn't be possible.
So one of the tools we we builtinto hmh classcraft is um.
We have.
We have all these learningroutines right.
So it's not just aboutdelivering content, it's about
help teachers teach better, andone of them is turn and talk.
(09:11):
So we have, you know, teachers.
You know they, you know turnand talk, as you can imagine, is
pretty exactly what it is.
So you have students turn andtalk about a topic and we know
that that's super effective,that very high effect size on
the Hattie scale.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
Yeah, and also a really interesting volume meter.
It starts out real quiet andthen by the end you are like got
to turn off the lights to getthe kids back Cause they're
chatty.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
Exactly and and and teachers you know, and what
you've described is exactlyright.
So a teacher that's not sure ofthemselves will do that once,
and then they'll be like, oh myGod, I just lost control of my
classroom.
Oh my God, how do I know?
They even talked about, youknow, edgar Allen Poe, because
they're chatty.
And so what we've done is we'vecreated a tool set where
students can enter their answers.
(09:59):
So the you know the, theresponse of that conversation.
But now, which is great, sokids know that the teacher is
expecting an output from them.
So cool, we're getting data,we're holding kids accountable.
But then now the teacher hasall these answers she needs to
look at in real time.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
Impossible.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
So we've built an AI tool that just summarizes that
and says here are the top threethings your kids discussed.
Here's where they, you know,didn't answer the prompt, and
here's where they, you know,didn't answer the prompt and
here's some feedback you mightwant to give them.
And so now, all of a sudden,we've created the possibility
for her to effectively eavesdropon all these conversations in a
way that's not really possible.
And then you know, and then inreal time, she could say hey,
(10:39):
guys, like here's the recap, andwe see teachers doing this.
They're like literally saying,saying, hey, the AI recap said X
, y, z, and you know, now kidsare like, oh, I want to make
sure my answer gets into therecap.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
And we've seen completely different behaviors
from kids.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
this we only found out recently that um in
multilingual classrooms we havestudents who are answering not
in english but the ai is smartenough that it can take those
answers, parse them as well andsummarize them into the english
(11:15):
um summary, so you can havestudents answering in whatever
language they want it's crazythat is a game changer and it's
like what's really exciting isthat we're able to um benefit
from this technology in waysthat we hadn't anticipated as we
were building it, and againcreate really new instructional
(11:39):
contexts that you know.
This is super simple.
It's not like the teacher needsto chat or needs to upload
anything, just press a button,you know.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
It's actually don't change anything.
Do more of those kind ofchallenging but necessary
teacher decision moments.
You know those moments whereyou do hand over control to the
kids to have a conversation orgo in the hallway and chat, all
these different things, allthose moments that you're like
rolling the teacher classroommanagement dice.
I think AI is helping you rollit a little easier.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
Yeah, that's right, and you know you get sixes more
often.
Yeah, how dare you say, guys.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
Well, it sounds like I mean okay.
So, first of all, you're stilltotally on fire for teaching,
which is incredible.
I'm so glad that you're oursenior vice president, because
that I just love working for acompany that has like people at
the leadership, that have thatreal pulse on teachers and
learners and are just like so,on fire for learning.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
I appreciate that.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
I think it's awesome.
So, sean, you know that we'redoing this education trends to
watch in 2025.
It's early in the year.
We always want to know, kind of, what's on the horizon.
With your expertise, do youhave a prediction or a trend to
watch?
Speaker 2 (12:48):
You know, yeah, I do.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
However put it on 22 black.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Here's why I'm pausing.
The world is changing reallyfast right now, both societally
and from a technological space.
You heard me talking about AIand how we can build in
solutions that we hadn't evenanticipated, so I'm kind of I
will make some predictions here,but I will put a grain of salt
(13:17):
here that you know, really, theonly constant right now is
change, and in an acceleratingway that is really hard to
predict.
If you had looked at anypredictions in 2019 about
education, you would have beencompletely wrong, and then
coming out of the pandemic, youwould have been, again,
completely wrong because, youknow, child GPT happened.
(13:39):
We're, you know, we're movingtowards reasoning models very
quickly.
So, you know, let's just takeany of this with a grain of salt
.
Now I will say that you know, Ido believe that there's a
strong desire from teachers togo back to, you know, kind of
(14:01):
the foundational elements of ofteaching.
So, uh and by that I mean uh,you know, we were, we were just
talking about classroommanagement, talking about
relationships between studentsUm, I think we're, um, you know,
we've reached a point wherethere's a, there's a tool for
everything that you might wantto do.
So now it stops being about XYZtool is super cool and it starts
(14:25):
being really, truly about howdoes this using this tool, how
does using this technology, howdoes using, you know, an
ecosystem of products like HMH,truly help me be a better
teacher and lead to studentoutcomes?
So I think we're going to beseeing a continued refocus
towards, you know, highlyimpactful solutions and not just
(14:49):
from, like, decision makers,actually from teachers
themselves, saying you know, Idon't have time, I don't want to
learn new tools.
The good news is, tools areeasier than ever to use and
there's this moment in time thatwe've reached where tools have
gotten super simple, where wehave some of these like power
tools, like chat.
Gpt has kind of brought us backto teachers being able to focus
(15:13):
on what really matters, andthat's supporting students,
understanding them, deliveringengaging experience, building
relationships, and so it reallydoes become about creating the
experience in the classroom, andI think we're going to be
seeing a lot more of that.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
Yeah, I kind of love how your prediction is that,
like, as technology gets moreadvanced, we're probably going
to see fewer.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Yeah, we're going back to human pieces of it,
that's right.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
Yeah.
And also we, because there's somuch choice, we're giving
teachers and educators andpurchasers of that technology
more incentive to say, okay,well, like in the technology
world, we talk about the clickpath.
Right, how many clicks are you?
Speaker 2 (15:55):
going to have to make to get to what you want.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Well, how many things are you going to make teachers
touch while they're in aclassroom full of 35 humans?
You got a human with otherhumans and you keep on giving
them more buttons to push,they're eventually going to
realize, like, if you just giveme one button, that does it all.
That's what I'm going to pick,and so I love that.
You're kind of talking aboutmaybe like separating what is it
?
The separating the wheat fromthe chaff, the chaff?
Speaker 2 (16:17):
yeah, yeah.
Well, you know, and it'sinteresting because you know
part of it is about excellence.
You know, solutions that areexcellent obviously are going to
, you know, be used more rise tothe top, but it's also there's
also like a bit of becoming moreand more sophisticated.
(16:38):
And it's interesting because, atthe same time, we have a
massive issue, which is teacherturnover.
A lot of teachers that are newto the profession, a lot of them
who are untrained.
(16:59):
So there's, on the one hand,this body of educators that
really needs support to to dotheir work, but effectively they
don't.
They're, they're, you know,coming in real hot, as you know
a week ago, well, or or like aweek ago, I used to work in a
(17:19):
coffee shop and now I'm in aclassroom Like we're seeing that
happening.
Um, and you know, for better orfor worse, that's what's
happening.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
Right.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
So those teachers need super simple, effective
solutions that solve theirproblems At the same time.
Yeah, I know.
So that exists.
At the same time, we have these, you know, more teachers who've
been there longer, who reallyunderstand the space, et cetera,
who've seen tools come and go,and it turns out they also want
seamless and simple.
(17:49):
So, on the one hand, I needseamless and simple.
On the other hand, I needseamless and simple for
different reasons.
But we can actually through aconvergence of, you know, really
good user experience, reallygood data surfacing, taking data
and not bringing teachers toreports, but actually surfacing
insights at point of use, likehere's what you should know now,
(18:09):
as opposed to go look at thesespreadsheets of whatever and try
to figure it out yeah, and comeback when you have an answer.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
You're like, yeah, exactly exactly so.
So I think, I think, grading istaking up less time because of
ai solutions, and interpretingdata is taking up less time, and
so what we're really gettingback to, kind of what you're
saying, is that, like, sometimesthe most helpful tool is the
one that's just outside yourperipheral vision, like you,
know it's there, but you're nottrying to focus on it and that
(18:37):
lets our teachers really focuson building those one on one
relationships with students.
And that really is what impactsgrowth building those one-on-one
relationships with students andthat really is what impacts
growth.
Like HMH's CEO, jack Lynch, hesaid his prediction was that we
should expect ed tech to deepenteacher-student connection and
like that's kind of what you'resaying, that like get it out of
your focus, get it out of yourhands and really focus right
(18:58):
back on the things that onlyhumans can do, which is relate,
connect, encourage growth andlearn.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
Absolutely Well and, and you know it's, it's
interesting because, you know,jack has a um, a maniacal focus
on, you know, seriously on this,on this human relationship, uh,
connection, and that's, youknow, part of why I was excited
to join HMH, was that that's ourmission.
And, um, you know, I think, uh,that's not true of every
(19:36):
company, uh, or or of every edtech, you know, leader a lot of
them are talking about, you know, how can we uh make systems
more effective, how can we?
You know that you, I, you, assomeone who is an ed tech
founder, who was an educator fora long time, um, I met a lot of
ed tech founders who were, likeyou know, programmers with an
idea or somebody who you knowkind of said, oh, I can go fix
(19:58):
that in education yeah, I wentto school, so I'm yeah exactly,
exactly, well, I talked to 50teachers.
Therefore, I know all of theirproblems, um, and you know and
we don't you don't necessarily,and there's nothing wrong with
that you know that people cansolve these.
Anybody who's trying to solvethese problems deserves a, you
(20:20):
know, a commendation.
That's, um, but, but deeplyunderstanding teachers reality,
um, and making that really theheart of of how you're um
building these tools is, is isreally important and, and I
think there's a huge, we havethis huge opportunity at HMH
with AI to do that.
Uh, because, um, because wehave the capacity to have the
(20:44):
full picture, um, we have enoughum data about students.
We have enough resources forteachers.
We have enough sophisticatedunderstanding of the skills and
how they connect to one another.
We have enough solutions for,you know, supplemental and
intervention so we can actuallylook at all the different pieces
and really connect them in away that really elevates
(21:09):
teachers.
So it's, you know, as you cantell, I'm really passionate
about it.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
Yeah Well, and I think what's interesting about
you is, you know, you've gotthis background in physics
education.
You've got this background instarting a company to really I
mean, your company was itself aproject-based learning venture
you had a real problem and thenyou put it to real use Like
that's what.
That's what that is, and Ithink that what is interesting
about your perspective that Ithink a lot of teachers,
(21:34):
including myself, don't reallyunderstand sometimes is how data
and more personal, deepinteractions with students
exists in the same sentence.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
I think that a lot of times when we hear data, we
think either a wall of scoresthat are a little intimidating
to decipher, maybe disappointingjust those scores in general,
or maybe we hear like big datayou know, like, or maybe we hear
a forgotten password, like, ormaybe we hear a forgotten
password.
But I think what's reallybeautiful is that your ed
(22:07):
prediction is touching on thislike deeper level of
personalizing instruction,because you're freeing up
teacher time by using data tomake sure that they aren't
teachers don't realize how muchdata they are keeping track of
in their head informally.
And when we make thatformalized and when we take that
guesswork out of it, it's notthat we dim the light of a
(22:28):
teacher.
We actually free up and throwmore grease on your system to be
that teacher that you alreadyare.
Amit Patel is the managingdirector at Owl Ventures and
they're an ed tech venturecapital firm, so they're
investing in these ideas and hebrought up this idea that gaming
, like introducing games on thefly, can generate new worlds or
(22:50):
experience based on how thegamer is reacting in real time,
Kind of like maybe what we wouldeven say with map growth.
It's adapting to thatparticular, it's creating this
bespoke experience.
It's like a choose your ownadventure book.
And he says this kind of gamingexperience, adaptability,
technology being applied tolearning, not only to
(23:12):
personalize that experience butto motivate students as well,
and so like further humanizingthem specifically and so getting
away from just games for game'ssake, but like really getting
into games because it can be apersonalized motivator.
So like I'm curious to hearyour prediction and your take on
that.
And it's okay if you were likenah, I don't agree with games.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
Well, I built a gamification company and I'm a
lifelong gamer, I have a lot ofopinions, well, and firsthand
experience about games andeducation.
I think, you know, I think sothere's game-based learning,
there's gamification.
This idea is super interestingbecause you know we're talking
(23:55):
about making game-based learningmore and more sophisticated.
Um, that's awesome because youknow kids will learn.
(24:18):
You know it's experimental um.
You know there's a lot ofevidence that shows that.
For you know, a well-designedgame can really lead to, um,
very strong learnings.
But then what if I want to moveon to geometry?
Well, now I need a whole newgame, right, um?
And so the the production cost.
Why haven't, why don't we haveAAA games working in the
education space?
Because the cost to make thesegames is is really, really high.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
Yeah, and the motivation to make these games
is is really low.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
Like the, you know if I'm going to spend, you know, a
hundred million dollars to makea video game, I'm probably
going to get.
I'm probably going to yeah,exactly, probably gonna get a
lot faster return on investmentin the consumer space than I
would in the education space,right?
Um?
So there's an economics problemthat that would be solved by ai
(25:06):
.
You know, making games.
Now, however, we're not talkingabout making games.
We're talking about makinglearning games, and you know,
there's a super interestingstudy.
There's this game from like theearly 2000s called Spore.
I know Spore Okay.
So Spore is this game.
It's like the Sims or SimCity,but like you start as a bacteria
(25:42):
and you evolve into, you know,a creature which evolves, into a
society which evolves into acivilization, and that was kind
of the game and all along thatjourney, as a gamer, you are, um
, you know, making decisions ofhow your creature evolves.
And so there's a you know superinteresting study where they use
that to teach kids aboutevolution right, because it's
like bacteria evolving and and,and so they did that.
They intentionally taught aboutevolution with that and um, and
then when they tested kidsabout what they had learned,
what they realized is that kidshad interiorized intelligent
(26:04):
design and that actually there'sthis super being controlling
evolution, because that's whatthey had experienced as a player
, and so, and all right, whichis super interesting yeah uh,
you know I don't want to getinto the politics of that, but
um, but the point is?
Speaker 1 (26:24):
is that it's just so interesting that they were
learning a lesson we didn't knowwe were teaching?
Speaker 2 (26:28):
exactly, and that's kind of.
There's implicit learningshappening in games.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
That you need to be really intentful about designing
around or teaching back against, or at least just incorporating
that into your Socratic lesson.
Yes, exactly what do you think?
Speaker 1 (26:48):
this means about that Like at least just be, have
your finger on the pulse, ratherthan it coming for you the last
day of school so so,pedagogically, I'd be really
curious to see how these aiself-generating games, you know
what kind of?
Speaker 2 (27:02):
what kind of implicit lessons are they teaching kids,
and how would we even know whatthose are if the games are
self-generating?
So you know it's.
It's super interesting when youthink about it from a
personalization angle or from anengagement angle.
When you think about it from aholistic like what are they
learning?
Angle, I'm like I'm not surehow effective it would be.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
Yeah, I think your example of like learning
fractions and the game intuitingwhat question you're ready for
that.
You know that you, Sean, mightbe ready for question number 512
.
But I am far more ready forquestion 650, obviously, levels
(27:54):
of student thought.
You know, I don't know that agame is going to replace
students and a teacher sittingaround and talking about ideas,
but I also don't know if gamesare claiming that they could
compete with that.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
Yeah, I mean, it depends.
You know games.
Games are such an interestingthing.
We try, we tend to think aboutthem monolithically, but games
are really.
Games are really just anothercultural medium.
So here's an example.
You know, we, you know I usethis example all the time
probably if we log into mynetflix account and we log into
(28:22):
your netflix account, uh, we'llsee very different things I've
played one game well, yeah, I'mtalking about.
I'm just talking about shows andmovies, right like so if you go
to netflix, for me what you'regonna see is, you know, uh,
probably some star trek stuff.
You'll see studio ghibli.
There you go.
If you go to my wife's, youknow netflix it's all downton
(28:43):
abbey and you know there you goum, and so we're both having the
same cultural medium, but we'rehaving very, very different
experiences.
You know, I I hate horror movies.
They, they scare the bejesusout of me, um, and but those are
.
Those are movies in the sameway that star trek is is, you
(29:05):
know, tv shows, movie, etc.
So so we have a medium herethat has very, very different
experiences for very differentpeople, but it's all the same
medium.
And games are, are that, butlike times one million yeah,
they can play and you know wetalked about spores.
An example you could play sims,you could play candy crush.
All those are very, verydifferent experiences.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
Category of like art games that have no
competitiveness to them, they'rejust an artist's world.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
That's it, and you know, if you look at games like
what Remains of Edith Finch,that's a good example.
This is a game where youbacktrack through memories and
it's all about processing grief.
So this is like a social andemotional experience much
different than you know playinga zombie survival game.
(29:54):
So my point is is that when youthink about games for education
, you really need to be carefulabout the assumptions you make,
because you could have a veryexperience-based type of
experience, verynarrative-driven versus like
earning points and leveling up,and those are very, very
(30:15):
different things.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
Yeah, I mean it's.
I think a lot of teachers,including myself, sometimes
approach games like we wouldapproach a slot machine, um,
where we're like I don't, Idon't want my kids getting cheap
rewards and dopamine hits forsomething that's not actually
real rewards and dopamine hitsfor something that's not
actually real, and um, and Ithink that reminding people that
(30:38):
not only is there this wholevast library of games that,
unless you are a gamer, you maynot know exists, so don't, you
know, throw the baby out withthe bathwater, um, but also
making sure that we keep keepour eye on the ball of like,
well, what is your goal?
What's your goal with this game?
What's the goal?
Is it to teach fractions?
That's a great goal for a game.
Is it to, um, learn conflictmanagement?
Speaker 2 (31:00):
maybe not maybe it depends.
I mean, we're back, I mean thisis how, this is how teachers
should be designing lessons.
Anyways, what's yourpedagogical intention?
What do?
Speaker 1 (31:11):
you want to get together and is this tool, this
medium, this game, the right wayto?
Speaker 2 (31:13):
do you want to get from it, and is this tool, this
medium, this game the right wayto do that?
Maybe yes, maybe no, it depends.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
Okay, sean, let's look at one more prediction, and
this one's incredibly important.
Jack Lynch, our CEO, said thatteachers are demanding that new
ed tech tools come withsafeguards consistent with their
power.
You know tech tools come withsafeguards consistent with their
power.
You know, obviously, ai isincredibly powerful and also we
need to have some guardrailsaround how we use it, how we
tell children to use it, etcetera, and Jack predicts that
(31:43):
we'll see a renewed call forethical use guidelines and
policies, you know, at variouslevels of leadership, in
response to those demands.
And can you talk a little bitabout your predictions for how
the ed tech industry will riseto that challenge?
Speaker 2 (31:57):
Yeah, I mean it's super interesting because you
know AI in general is creating alot of conversation around that
, even outside of education.
You know there's a ton ofconversation around you know
deep fakes and using AI to scampeople, etc.
So I think that the you knowdeep fakes and using AI to, to,
to scam people, et cetera.
So I think that the you know,societally, we're actually
(32:19):
living that right now, um, andthere is a larger call for you
know better understanding, um,how data is used and how your
own data could be used.
You know against you, and so Ithink that we're we're seeing
that as the zeitgeist and thatis just existing even more
within the educational space.
(32:40):
You know educator's job is toprepare kids for, you know, the
future and and society, and thatmeans you know making them
aware of these types ofsituations.
I think the other piece is thatwe're you know whenever you see
you know ESSER funds arerunning out now, so we're
(33:01):
probably going to be seeing someconstriction on budgets and
whenever that happens, you knowyou start seeing.
You know you see districts say,okay, here are all the things
we have.
Which of these work, which ofthese doesn't work?
Which of these, you know, do wereally need which don't we need
?
If I need to cut somewhere,where am I going to cut?
And um, and so there's, there'snatural pressure to um to start
(33:27):
saying, well, which of thesetools really does work?
Um, and you know, one of thethings I'm really excited about
with with, you know, the NWA,joining HMH and map growth, you
know being part of a lot of ourofferings as we move forward, is
that we'll be able to directly,you know, put our money where
(33:50):
our mouth is.
So if we say, hey, you know,interreading is super
efficacious, well, we actuallyhappen to have the data to show
that growth, with the most validpsychometric test that exists
that has the most nationalnorming against it.
And you know, you can make upyour own mind as an educator.
We're going to be open about,about how our solution is
(34:15):
leading to growth and, you know,obviously, help you see that
data.
That's, you know, we want.
We want, we believe that ourprograms work, but we believe it
so much that we're willing tostand that up against real data
and I think that that, you know,responsible ed tech companies
are going to do more and more ofthat, because the you know it's
(34:39):
a super interesting thing whereeducation has this very
powerful alignment of,especially if you're in the
pedagogy space, where thebusiness outcomes really align
super well with what thecustomer needs and wants.
(35:03):
So you know, if students succeedand we can demonstrate that
students succeed, that is reallygood for HMH.
But that's actually whateducators want also.
They want to use our stuff,stuff, see students succeed and
they want to know that they'resucceeding.
And so actually, um, you knowthe, those two things are
perfectly aligned and that's whyhmh is a double bottom line
company, because you know partof obviously it's a company, um,
(35:27):
and you know that's financialreasons for for doing things.
But actually those align superwell with, you know, increased
rigor, increased standards,increased guidelines around how
we leverage and use these toolsand, you know, ultimately
demonstrating student outcomes.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
Wow.
So, following what you'resaying, you're saying that maybe
this scalpel that might bearriving to trim unnecessary
programs will actually reallymotivate us to choose.
What is proven to be workingand that's good, regardless of
how it's happening is to stickwith the things that are proven
to be really moving and shakingoutcomes for student growth.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
Yeah, that's right, and it's our responsibility to
be able to demonstrate thatefficacy.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
Agreed.
Well, thank you so much for allof those education predictions
and all of those opinions.
I mean, I think that we allagree we would love to chat with
you for another hour and wehave so many other education
predictions for you to watch in2025 on our blog.
Get the link in our show notesand thanks for joining us today,
listeners.
And thank you so much forjoining us today, sean.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
Thank you, thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 (36:37):
If you or someone you know would like to be a guest
on the Teachers in Americapodcast, please email us at
shaped at hmhcocom.
That's S-H-A-P-E-D.
At H-M-H-C-O dot com.
Be the first to hear newepisodes of Teachers in America
by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, spotify or wherever you get
your podcasts.
If you enjoyed today's show,please rate, review and share it
(36:59):
with your network.
You can find the transcript ofthis episode on our Shaped blog
by visiting hmhcocom.
Forward slash shaped.
That's hmhcocom forward slashs-h-a-p-e-d.
If you or someone you knowwould like to be a guest on the
Teachers in America podcast,please email us at shaped at
hmhcocom.
(37:20):
That's S-H-A-P-E-D.
At H-M-H-C-O dot com.
Be the first to hear newepisodes of Teachers in America
by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, spotify or wherever you get
your podcasts.
If you enjoyed today's show,please rate, review and share it
with your network.
You can find the transcript ofthis episode on our Shaped blog
by visiting hmhcocom.
(37:41):
Forward slash shaped.
That's hmhcocom forward slashS-H-A-P-E-D.
The link is in the show notes.
The Teachers in America podcastis a production of HMH.
Thank you to the productionteam of Christine Condon, tim
Lee, jennifer Guadalupe, neo Fry, thomas Velasquez and Matt
Howell.
Thanks again for listening.
Hi, I'm Kaylee Rhodes , and this is Teachers in
America.
Welcome to our mini-sodespotlighting education trends to
watch in 2025.
Every year, we talk withexperts in ed tech, curriculum,
education, leadership,professional learning and so
many other fields, and theyshare their forecast for
education trends in the yearahead.
Here's a prediction from lastyear that's still worth watching
(00:28):
.
Districts will provideprofessional development in AI.
Fingers crossed right teachers.
This prediction from HMH'sSenior Vice President of
Research, fran C Alexander, isstill one to watch in 2025.
And we know from our recentsurvey that educators are asking
for training in AI and many ofthem see how it can be useful in
(00:48):
their teaching.
If you want to hear more aboutthat survey and what educators
really think about technology inthe classroom, check out our
last EdTrends mini-sode.
The link is in the show notes,along with the links to all our
other EdTrends blogs, so you cansee how previous predictions
panned out.
So today we're going to giveyou a rundown of the latest
predictions to keep your eye onin 2025.
(01:10):
And a very special guest hereto weigh in is Sean Young, hmh's
Senior Vice President ofProduct Management and Strategy,
core Classrooms and IntegratedSolutions.
Wow, sean, you have your pulseon a ton of things.
So can you introduce yourself?
Tell us a bit about yourbackground in education and your
role here at HMH?
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Sure.
Thanks for having me.
So.
Currently at HMH, I'm runningour efforts around supporting
teachers' delivery of curriculumand instruction within a
classroom and integrating ourvarious broad based portfolio
into that experience.
But I wasn't always doing thatand I actually I started off as
a teacher and I'm a physicsmajor actually and realized I
(02:02):
didn't want to work in a lab andended up teaching high school
for nine years.
I got certified as, with amaster's in ed during that time
and was really extremely focusedon making school meaningful for
kids, and you know I had had.
I didn't love high school.
I found it kind of meaninglesswhen I was a learner.
(02:26):
So my mission as an educatorwas really to respect the fact
that my students had to be thereand make it as meaningful as
possible, and I did that through.
You know, I built 180 days ofproject-based learning for
science.
We did all kinds of cool stuff,like you know build cannons and
shoot them off the roof andthat type of stuff, and, and and
(02:49):
.
Throughout that I was also adeveloper.
So I had a.
I had a consulting business forthat same period where I built
applications and websites forcustomers, and, and and I was
building apps for myself at thesame time.
So, yeah, how do you?
You know teacher by day,programmer by night?
How do you do those two things?
What you do is you get reallyeffective.
(03:09):
So I started building a lot ofapps to be a more effective
teacher, and that's how I builtClasscraft, which was really a
solution for classroommanagement, using the principles
of games and motivation tocompletely transform how
students participated in theclassroom.
And that was just a sideproject.
(03:31):
But over after three years oftweaking it, I was like man,
this is really changing how kidsare showing up in the classroom
, and so I made a website totalk about it, just to inspire
other teachers.
And the day that website wentonline, 130,000 people came to
the website.
It started trending on Reddit.
It was on the front page ofReddit gaming for two weeks and
(03:52):
and then the BBC called to do apiece on like games and
education and um, and it justtook off and so, uh, that's kind
of how you know it became acompany and I started that, you
know, with my, my brother and mydad uh, my dad's on the finance
side, my brother's creativedirector and we just started
that and we scaled that companyto, um, 12 million kids in, uh,
(04:17):
a hundred plus countries.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
And oh my gosh.
Yeah, and now do we have thebenefit of that?
That craft at HMH.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
That's right.
So, um, and so that's where Iwas coming to.
How did we end up here?
Um, you know, the our it's a,it's a really good, you know,
kind of marriage, because ourexpertise was really on the
classroom management.
Uh, how do you, how do you helpteachers run the best classroom
possible?
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Right.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
But we didn't have any programs or content.
So you know know, a lot of workfor teachers they had to, yeah,
copy paste over their stuff.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
They had to like configure it creation problem
that's it exactly.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
And on the hmh side we have these really great
programs, but up until now wehaven't, you know, been um
supporting them through thedigital delivery of those
programs, like running theclassroom.
And so, putting those twothings together, uh, created HMH
, class craft, which we launchedlast July, and um, which has
(05:13):
built in, you know, all thelessons already built in the the
uh, the core programs alreadyuh, pre-made for teachers.
So super simple If you're abeginner teacher, you just press
teach and you get going.
If a more experienced teacher,then you get the benefit of all
these tools.
Where you can, you know,leverage the, the data coming in
from students responses to, tobe able to, on the fly, adapt
(05:34):
your instruction so um reallybeing able to blend the gap
between, you know, the printworld, the the analog world of
education, and adding on top ofthat, the curriculum world and
the classroom management world,and that's right exactly Adding
a digital layer to that.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
We can't just keep giving teachers discrete tools.
We have to help them integratebecause we have to remember that
teaching is one big improv gameand moment to moment is fast.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
They don't have time to wrangle on these separate
experiences Exactly and it'sinteresting.
Oh, go ahead, go ahead.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
No, you just said it's interesting, so you got me.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
All right.
It's interesting because one ofthe things you could do by
creating tools that helpteachers run their classroom is
start creating very rich datasources of what's happening in
the classroom.
Very rich data sources ofwhat's happening in the
classroom.
So you know the I kind of I'vebeen calling it stealth
(06:29):
assessment, where you knowyou're you're not actually
assessing students, it's not youknow a quiz or anything but
you're gathering a lot ofinformation about them that you
can use to.
If we, if you're part of anintegrated whole like HMH is,
you can start doing things likerecommend you know the next step
in a lesson.
You can recommenddifferentiation resources, you
(06:49):
can recommend teachingstrategies, and you're able to
do that if you know what ateacher has taught, how they
taught it and how students arereceiving it and how they're
doing against it.
And so that data becomes theconnective tissue between being
able to help teachers run theirclassroom but also do it in a
(07:11):
way that is super easy and helpsthem make the best decisions
for their students.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
And helps prevent students from falling through
the cracks.
I'm a middle school mathteacher that's my background and
I always had these momentswhere I would be brushing my
teeth or going to sleep and Iwould be like, oh my gosh,
Elliot needs this workbook page,and it would just be like I
really need someone to help me,and it would be really great if
(07:40):
that help was linked to Elliot'sactual experience in addition
to my own classroom observations.
It's an ecosystem right, andthe more we create digital tools
that mimic and support anecosystem and not just like
these discrete experiences, themore we're going to make a
difference in the classroom.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
That's right and you know, and I think we're in a
super unique time to be able todo that.
I think the you know kind ofthe linchpin to being able to do
that is to provide teacherswith tools they really want to
use so that make their lifeeasier.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Yeah, that they want to use.
That's it yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Because it's not like , oh, you have to use this.
It's like, oh, no, cool, I dowant to teach from here and in
the background I'm getting data.
You know, quote, unquote forfree, I don't have to then go.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
What do I do with this?
Yeah, because they've got somuch to figure out.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Well, and that's where AI becomes super
interesting and that's why Ithink we have a very unique
opportunity right now.
To you know, AI is being usedin a lot of ways to help
teachers, you know, createresources or give students
(08:47):
feedback doing.
We're seeing a lot of those usecases.
I'm really excited about um thecapacity that we have with the
data to be able to do things, tounlock um, you know,
instructional contexts that areactually wouldn't be possible.
So one of the tools we we builtinto hmh classcraft is um.
We have.
We have all these learningroutines right.
So it's not just aboutdelivering content, it's about
help teachers teach better, andone of them is turn and talk.
(09:11):
So we have, you know, teachers.
You know they, you know turnand talk, as you can imagine, is
pretty exactly what it is.
So you have students turn andtalk about a topic and we know
that that's super effective,that very high effect size on
the Hattie scale.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
Yeah, and also a really interesting volume meter.
It starts out real quiet andthen by the end you are like got
to turn off the lights to getthe kids back Cause they're
chatty.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
Exactly and and and teachers you know, and what
you've described is exactlyright.
So a teacher that's not sure ofthemselves will do that once,
and then they'll be like, oh myGod, I just lost control of my
classroom.
Oh my God, how do I know?
They even talked about, youknow, edgar Allen Poe, because
they're chatty.
And so what we've done is we'vecreated a tool set where
students can enter their answers.
(09:59):
So the you know the, theresponse of that conversation.
But now, which is great, sokids know that the teacher is
expecting an output from them.
So cool, we're getting data,we're holding kids accountable.
But then now the teacher hasall these answers she needs to
look at in real time.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
Impossible.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
So we've built an AI tool that just summarizes that
and says here are the top threethings your kids discussed.
Here's where they, you know,didn't answer the prompt, and
here's where they, you know,didn't answer the prompt and
here's some feedback you mightwant to give them.
And so now, all of a sudden,we've created the possibility
for her to effectively eavesdropon all these conversations in a
way that's not really possible.
And then you know, and then inreal time, she could say hey,
(10:39):
guys, like here's the recap, andwe see teachers doing this.
They're like literally saying,saying, hey, the AI recap said X
, y, z, and you know, now kidsare like, oh, I want to make
sure my answer gets into therecap.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
And we've seen completely different behaviors
from kids.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
this we only found out recently that um in
multilingual classrooms we havestudents who are answering not
in english but the ai is smartenough that it can take those
answers, parse them as well andsummarize them into the english
(11:15):
um summary, so you can havestudents answering in whatever
language they want it's crazythat is a game changer and it's
like what's really exciting isthat we're able to um benefit
from this technology in waysthat we hadn't anticipated as we
were building it, and againcreate really new instructional
(11:39):
contexts that you know.
This is super simple.
It's not like the teacher needsto chat or needs to upload
anything, just press a button,you know.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
It's actually don't change anything.
Do more of those kind ofchallenging but necessary
teacher decision moments.
You know those moments whereyou do hand over control to the
kids to have a conversation orgo in the hallway and chat, all
these different things, allthose moments that you're like
rolling the teacher classroommanagement dice.
I think AI is helping you rollit a little easier.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
Yeah, that's right, and you know you get sixes more
often.
Yeah, how dare you say, guys.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
Well, it sounds like I mean okay.
So, first of all, you're stilltotally on fire for teaching,
which is incredible.
I'm so glad that you're oursenior vice president, because
that I just love working for acompany that has like people at
the leadership, that have thatreal pulse on teachers and
learners and are just like so,on fire for learning.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
I appreciate that.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
I think it's awesome.
So, sean, you know that we'redoing this education trends to
watch in 2025.
It's early in the year.
We always want to know, kind of, what's on the horizon.
With your expertise, do youhave a prediction or a trend to
watch?
Speaker 2 (12:48):
You know, yeah, I do.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
However put it on 22 black.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Here's why I'm pausing.
The world is changing reallyfast right now, both societally
and from a technological space.
You heard me talking about AIand how we can build in
solutions that we hadn't evenanticipated, so I'm kind of I
will make some predictions here,but I will put a grain of salt
(13:17):
here that you know, really, theonly constant right now is
change, and in an acceleratingway that is really hard to
predict.
If you had looked at anypredictions in 2019 about
education, you would have beencompletely wrong, and then
coming out of the pandemic, youwould have been, again,
completely wrong because, youknow, child GPT happened.
(13:39):
We're, you know, we're movingtowards reasoning models very
quickly.
So, you know, let's just takeany of this with a grain of salt
.
Now I will say that you know, Ido believe that there's a
strong desire from teachers togo back to, you know, kind of
(14:01):
the foundational elements of ofteaching.
So, uh and by that I mean uh,you know, we were, we were just
talking about classroommanagement, talking about
relationships between studentsUm, I think we're, um, you know,
we've reached a point wherethere's a, there's a tool for
everything that you might wantto do.
So now it stops being about XYZtool is super cool and it starts
(14:25):
being really, truly about howdoes this using this tool, how
does using this technology, howdoes using, you know, an
ecosystem of products like HMH,truly help me be a better
teacher and lead to studentoutcomes?
So I think we're going to beseeing a continued refocus
towards, you know, highlyimpactful solutions and not just
(14:49):
from, like, decision makers,actually from teachers
themselves, saying you know, Idon't have time, I don't want to
learn new tools.
The good news is, tools areeasier than ever to use and
there's this moment in time thatwe've reached where tools have
gotten super simple, where wehave some of these like power
tools, like chat.
Gpt has kind of brought us backto teachers being able to focus
(15:13):
on what really matters, andthat's supporting students,
understanding them, deliveringengaging experience, building
relationships, and so it reallydoes become about creating the
experience in the classroom, andI think we're going to be
seeing a lot more of that.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
Yeah, I kind of love how your prediction is that,
like, as technology gets moreadvanced, we're probably going
to see fewer.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Yeah, we're going back to human pieces of it,
that's right.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
Yeah.
And also we, because there's somuch choice, we're giving
teachers and educators andpurchasers of that technology
more incentive to say, okay,well, like in the technology
world, we talk about the clickpath.
Right, how many clicks are you?
Speaker 2 (15:55):
going to have to make to get to what you want.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Well, how many things are you going to make teachers
touch while they're in aclassroom full of 35 humans?
You got a human with otherhumans and you keep on giving
them more buttons to push,they're eventually going to
realize, like, if you just giveme one button, that does it all.
That's what I'm going to pick,and so I love that.
You're kind of talking aboutmaybe like separating what is it
?
The separating the wheat fromthe chaff, the chaff?
Speaker 2 (16:17):
yeah, yeah.
Well, you know, and it'sinteresting because you know
part of it is about excellence.
You know, solutions that areexcellent obviously are going to
, you know, be used more rise tothe top, but it's also there's
also like a bit of becoming moreand more sophisticated.
(16:38):
And it's interesting because, atthe same time, we have a
massive issue, which is teacherturnover.
A lot of teachers that are newto the profession, a lot of them
who are untrained.
(16:59):
So there's, on the one hand,this body of educators that
really needs support to to dotheir work, but effectively they
don't.
They're, they're, you know,coming in real hot, as you know
a week ago, well, or or like aweek ago, I used to work in a
(17:19):
coffee shop and now I'm in aclassroom Like we're seeing that
happening.
Um, and you know, for better orfor worse, that's what's
happening.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
Right.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
So those teachers need super simple, effective
solutions that solve theirproblems At the same time.
Yeah, I know.
So that exists.
At the same time, we have these, you know, more teachers who've
been there longer, who reallyunderstand the space, et cetera,
who've seen tools come and go,and it turns out they also want
seamless and simple.
(17:49):
So, on the one hand, I needseamless and simple.
On the other hand, I needseamless and simple for
different reasons.
But we can actually through aconvergence of, you know, really
good user experience, reallygood data surfacing, taking data
and not bringing teachers toreports, but actually surfacing
insights at point of use, likehere's what you should know now,
(18:09):
as opposed to go look at thesespreadsheets of whatever and try
to figure it out yeah, and comeback when you have an answer.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
You're like, yeah, exactly exactly so.
So I think, I think, grading istaking up less time because of
ai solutions, and interpretingdata is taking up less time, and
so what we're really gettingback to, kind of what you're
saying, is that, like, sometimesthe most helpful tool is the
one that's just outside yourperipheral vision, like you,
know it's there, but you're nottrying to focus on it and that
(18:37):
lets our teachers really focuson building those one on one
relationships with students.
And that really is what impactsgrowth building those one-on-one
relationships with students andthat really is what impacts
growth.
Like HMH's CEO, jack Lynch, hesaid his prediction was that we
should expect ed tech to deepenteacher-student connection and
like that's kind of what you'resaying, that like get it out of
your focus, get it out of yourhands and really focus right
(18:58):
back on the things that onlyhumans can do, which is relate,
connect, encourage growth andlearn.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
Absolutely Well and, and you know it's, it's
interesting because, you know,jack has a um, a maniacal focus
on, you know, seriously on this,on this human relationship, uh,
connection, and that's, youknow, part of why I was excited
to join HMH, was that that's ourmission.
And, um, you know, I think, uh,that's not true of every
(19:36):
company, uh, or or of every edtech, you know, leader a lot of
them are talking about, you know, how can we uh make systems
more effective, how can we?
You know that you, I, you, assomeone who is an ed tech
founder, who was an educator fora long time, um, I met a lot of
ed tech founders who were, likeyou know, programmers with an
idea or somebody who you knowkind of said, oh, I can go fix
(19:58):
that in education yeah, I wentto school, so I'm yeah exactly,
exactly, well, I talked to 50teachers.
Therefore, I know all of theirproblems, um, and you know and
we don't you don't necessarily,and there's nothing wrong with
that you know that people cansolve these.
Anybody who's trying to solvethese problems deserves a, you
(20:20):
know, a commendation.
That's, um, but, but deeplyunderstanding teachers reality,
um, and making that really theheart of of how you're um
building these tools is, is isreally important and, and I
think there's a huge, we havethis huge opportunity at HMH
with AI to do that.
Uh, because, um, because wehave the capacity to have the
(20:44):
full picture, um, we have enoughum data about students.
We have enough resources forteachers.
We have enough sophisticatedunderstanding of the skills and
how they connect to one another.
We have enough solutions for,you know, supplemental and
intervention so we can actuallylook at all the different pieces
and really connect them in away that really elevates
(21:09):
teachers.
So it's, you know, as you cantell, I'm really passionate
about it.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
Yeah Well, and I think what's interesting about
you is, you know, you've gotthis background in physics
education.
You've got this background instarting a company to really I
mean, your company was itself aproject-based learning venture
you had a real problem and thenyou put it to real use Like
that's what.
That's what that is, and Ithink that what is interesting
about your perspective that Ithink a lot of teachers,
(21:34):
including myself, don't reallyunderstand sometimes is how data
and more personal, deepinteractions with students
exists in the same sentence.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
I think that a lot of times when we hear data, we
think either a wall of scoresthat are a little intimidating
to decipher, maybe disappointingjust those scores in general,
or maybe we hear like big datayou know, like, or maybe we hear
a forgotten password, like, ormaybe we hear a forgotten
password.
But I think what's reallybeautiful is that your ed
(22:07):
prediction is touching on thislike deeper level of
personalizing instruction,because you're freeing up
teacher time by using data tomake sure that they aren't
teachers don't realize how muchdata they are keeping track of
in their head informally.
And when we make thatformalized and when we take that
guesswork out of it, it's notthat we dim the light of a
(22:28):
teacher.
We actually free up and throwmore grease on your system to be
that teacher that you alreadyare.
Amit Patel is the managingdirector at Owl Ventures and
they're an ed tech venturecapital firm, so they're
investing in these ideas and hebrought up this idea that gaming
, like introducing games on thefly, can generate new worlds or
(22:50):
experience based on how thegamer is reacting in real time,
Kind of like maybe what we wouldeven say with map growth.
It's adapting to thatparticular, it's creating this
bespoke experience.
It's like a choose your ownadventure book.
And he says this kind of gamingexperience, adaptability,
technology being applied tolearning, not only to
(23:12):
personalize that experience butto motivate students as well,
and so like further humanizingthem specifically and so getting
away from just games for game'ssake, but like really getting
into games because it can be apersonalized motivator.
So like I'm curious to hearyour prediction and your take on
that.
And it's okay if you were likenah, I don't agree with games.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
Well, I built a gamification company and I'm a
lifelong gamer, I have a lot ofopinions, well, and firsthand
experience about games andeducation.
I think, you know, I think sothere's game-based learning,
there's gamification.
This idea is super interestingbecause you know we're talking
(23:55):
about making game-based learningmore and more sophisticated.
Um, that's awesome because youknow kids will learn.
(24:18):
You know it's experimental um.
You know there's a lot ofevidence that shows that.
For you know, a well-designedgame can really lead to, um,
very strong learnings.
But then what if I want to moveon to geometry?
Well, now I need a whole newgame, right, um?
And so the the production cost.
Why haven't, why don't we haveAAA games working in the
education space?
Because the cost to make thesegames is is really, really high.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
Yeah, and the motivation to make these games
is is really low.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
Like the, you know if I'm going to spend, you know, a
hundred million dollars to makea video game, I'm probably
going to get.
I'm probably going to yeah,exactly, probably gonna get a
lot faster return on investmentin the consumer space than I
would in the education space,right?
Um?
So there's an economics problemthat that would be solved by ai
(25:06):
.
You know, making games.
Now, however, we're not talkingabout making games.
We're talking about makinglearning games, and you know,
there's a super interestingstudy.
There's this game from like theearly 2000s called Spore.
I know Spore Okay.
So Spore is this game.
It's like the Sims or SimCity,but like you start as a bacteria
(25:42):
and you evolve into, you know,a creature which evolves, into a
society which evolves into acivilization, and that was kind
of the game and all along thatjourney, as a gamer, you are, um
, you know, making decisions ofhow your creature evolves.
And so there's a you know superinteresting study where they use
that to teach kids aboutevolution right, because it's
like bacteria evolving and and,and so they did that.
They intentionally taught aboutevolution with that and um, and
then when they tested kidsabout what they had learned,
what they realized is that kidshad interiorized intelligent
(26:04):
design and that actually there'sthis super being controlling
evolution, because that's whatthey had experienced as a player
, and so, and all right, whichis super interesting yeah uh,
you know I don't want to getinto the politics of that, but
um, but the point is?
Speaker 1 (26:24):
is that it's just so interesting that they were
learning a lesson we didn't knowwe were teaching?
Speaker 2 (26:28):
exactly, and that's kind of.
There's implicit learningshappening in games.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
That you need to be really intentful about designing
around or teaching back against, or at least just incorporating
that into your Socratic lesson.
Yes, exactly what do you think?
Speaker 1 (26:48):
this means about that Like at least just be, have
your finger on the pulse, ratherthan it coming for you the last
day of school so so,pedagogically, I'd be really
curious to see how these aiself-generating games, you know
what kind of?
Speaker 2 (27:02):
what kind of implicit lessons are they teaching kids,
and how would we even know whatthose are if the games are
self-generating?
So you know it's.
It's super interesting when youthink about it from a
personalization angle or from anengagement angle.
When you think about it from aholistic like what are they
learning?
Angle, I'm like I'm not surehow effective it would be.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
Yeah, I think your example of like learning
fractions and the game intuitingwhat question you're ready for
that.
You know that you, Sean, mightbe ready for question number 512
.
But I am far more ready forquestion 650, obviously, levels
(27:54):
of student thought.
You know, I don't know that agame is going to replace
students and a teacher sittingaround and talking about ideas,
but I also don't know if gamesare claiming that they could
compete with that.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
Yeah, I mean, it depends.
You know games.
Games are such an interestingthing.
We try, we tend to think aboutthem monolithically, but games
are really.
Games are really just anothercultural medium.
So here's an example.
You know, we, you know I usethis example all the time
probably if we log into mynetflix account and we log into
(28:22):
your netflix account, uh, we'llsee very different things I've
played one game well, yeah, I'mtalking about.
I'm just talking about shows andmovies, right like so if you go
to netflix, for me what you'regonna see is, you know, uh,
probably some star trek stuff.
You'll see studio ghibli.
There you go.
If you go to my wife's, youknow netflix it's all downton
(28:43):
abbey and you know there you goum, and so we're both having the
same cultural medium, but we'rehaving very, very different
experiences.
You know, I I hate horror movies.
They, they scare the bejesusout of me, um, and but those are
.
Those are movies in the sameway that star trek is is, you
(29:05):
know, tv shows, movie, etc.
So so we have a medium herethat has very, very different
experiences for very differentpeople, but it's all the same
medium.
And games are, are that, butlike times one million yeah,
they can play and you know wetalked about spores.
An example you could play sims,you could play candy crush.
All those are very, verydifferent experiences.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
Category of like art games that have no
competitiveness to them, they'rejust an artist's world.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
That's it, and you know, if you look at games like
what Remains of Edith Finch,that's a good example.
This is a game where youbacktrack through memories and
it's all about processing grief.
So this is like a social andemotional experience much
different than you know playinga zombie survival game.
(29:54):
So my point is is that when youthink about games for education
, you really need to be carefulabout the assumptions you make,
because you could have a veryexperience-based type of
experience, verynarrative-driven versus like
earning points and leveling up,and those are very, very
(30:15):
different things.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
Yeah, I mean it's.
I think a lot of teachers,including myself, sometimes
approach games like we wouldapproach a slot machine, um,
where we're like I don't, Idon't want my kids getting cheap
rewards and dopamine hits forsomething that's not actually
real rewards and dopamine hitsfor something that's not
actually real, and um, and Ithink that reminding people that
(30:38):
not only is there this wholevast library of games that,
unless you are a gamer, you maynot know exists, so don't, you
know, throw the baby out withthe bathwater, um, but also
making sure that we keep keepour eye on the ball of like,
well, what is your goal?
What's your goal with this game?
What's the goal?
Is it to teach fractions?
That's a great goal for a game.
Is it to, um, learn conflictmanagement?
Speaker 2 (31:00):
maybe not maybe it depends.
I mean, we're back, I mean thisis how, this is how teachers
should be designing lessons.
Anyways, what's yourpedagogical intention?
What do?
Speaker 1 (31:11):
you want to get together and is this tool, this
medium, this game, the right wayto?
Speaker 2 (31:13):
do you want to get from it, and is this tool, this
medium, this game the right wayto do that?
Maybe yes, maybe no, it depends.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
Okay, sean, let's look at one more prediction, and
this one's incredibly important.
Jack Lynch, our CEO, said thatteachers are demanding that new
ed tech tools come withsafeguards consistent with their
power.
You know tech tools come withsafeguards consistent with their
power.
You know, obviously, ai isincredibly powerful and also we
need to have some guardrailsaround how we use it, how we
tell children to use it, etcetera, and Jack predicts that
(31:43):
we'll see a renewed call forethical use guidelines and
policies, you know, at variouslevels of leadership, in
response to those demands.
And can you talk a little bitabout your predictions for how
the ed tech industry will riseto that challenge?
Speaker 2 (31:57):
Yeah, I mean it's super interesting because you
know AI in general is creating alot of conversation around that
, even outside of education.
You know there's a ton ofconversation around you know
deep fakes and using AI to scampeople, etc.
So I think that the you knowdeep fakes and using AI to, to,
to scam people, et cetera.
So I think that the you know,societally, we're actually
(32:19):
living that right now, um, andthere is a larger call for you
know better understanding, um,how data is used and how your
own data could be used.
You know against you, and so Ithink that we're we're seeing
that as the zeitgeist and thatis just existing even more
within the educational space.
(32:40):
You know educator's job is toprepare kids for, you know, the
future and and society, and thatmeans you know making them
aware of these types ofsituations.
I think the other piece is thatwe're you know whenever you see
you know ESSER funds arerunning out now, so we're
(33:01):
probably going to be seeing someconstriction on budgets and
whenever that happens, you knowyou start seeing.
You know you see districts say,okay, here are all the things
we have.
Which of these work, which ofthese doesn't work?
Which of these, you know, do wereally need which don't we need
?
If I need to cut somewhere,where am I going to cut?
And um, and so there's, there'snatural pressure to um to start
(33:27):
saying, well, which of thesetools really does work?
Um, and you know, one of thethings I'm really excited about
with with, you know, the NWA,joining HMH and map growth, you
know being part of a lot of ourofferings as we move forward, is
that we'll be able to directly,you know, put our money where
(33:50):
our mouth is.
So if we say, hey, you know,interreading is super
efficacious, well, we actuallyhappen to have the data to show
that growth, with the most validpsychometric test that exists
that has the most nationalnorming against it.
And you know, you can make upyour own mind as an educator.
We're going to be open about,about how our solution is
(34:15):
leading to growth and, you know,obviously, help you see that
data.
That's, you know, we want.
We want, we believe that ourprograms work, but we believe it
so much that we're willing tostand that up against real data
and I think that that, you know,responsible ed tech companies
are going to do more and more ofthat, because the you know it's
(34:39):
a super interesting thing whereeducation has this very
powerful alignment of,especially if you're in the
pedagogy space, where thebusiness outcomes really align
super well with what thecustomer needs and wants.
(35:03):
So you know, if students succeedand we can demonstrate that
students succeed, that is reallygood for HMH.
But that's actually whateducators want also.
They want to use our stuff,stuff, see students succeed and
they want to know that they'resucceeding.
And so actually, um, you knowthe, those two things are
perfectly aligned and that's whyhmh is a double bottom line
company, because you know partof obviously it's a company, um,
(35:27):
and you know that's financialreasons for for doing things.
But actually those align superwell with, you know, increased
rigor, increased standards,increased guidelines around how
we leverage and use these toolsand, you know, ultimately
demonstrating student outcomes.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
Wow.
So, following what you'resaying, you're saying that maybe
this scalpel that might bearriving to trim unnecessary
programs will actually reallymotivate us to choose.
What is proven to be workingand that's good, regardless of
how it's happening is to stickwith the things that are proven
to be really moving and shakingoutcomes for student growth.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
Yeah, that's right, and it's our responsibility to
be able to demonstrate thatefficacy.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
Agreed.
Well, thank you so much for allof those education predictions
and all of those opinions.
I mean, I think that we allagree we would love to chat with
you for another hour and wehave so many other education
predictions for you to watch in2025 on our blog.
Get the link in our show notesand thanks for joining us today,
listeners.
And thank you so much forjoining us today, sean.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
Thank you, thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 (36:37):
If you or someone you know would like to be a guest
on the Teachers in Americapodcast, please email us at
shaped at hmhcocom.
That's S-H-A-P-E-D.
At H-M-H-C-O dot com.
Be the first to hear newepisodes of Teachers in America
by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, spotify or wherever you get
your podcasts.
If you enjoyed today's show,please rate, review and share it
(36:59):
with your network.
You can find the transcript ofthis episode on our Shaped blog
by visiting hmhcocom.
Forward slash shaped.
That's hmhcocom forward slashs-h-a-p-e-d.
If you or someone you knowwould like to be a guest on the
Teachers in America podcast,please email us at shaped at
hmhcocom.
(37:20):
That's S-H-A-P-E-D.
At H-M-H-C-O dot com.
Be the first to hear newepisodes of Teachers in America
by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, spotify or wherever you get
your podcasts.
If you enjoyed today's show,please rate, review and share it
with your network.
You can find the transcript ofthis episode on our Shaped blog
by visiting hmhcocom.
(37:41):
Forward slash shaped.
That's hmhcocom forward slashS-H-A-P-E-D.
The link is in the show notes.
The Teachers in America podcastis a production of HMH.
Thank you to the productionteam of Christine Condon, tim
Lee, jennifer Guadalupe, neo Fry, thomas Velasquez and Matt
Howell.
Thanks again for listening.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.