August 27, 2025 • 30 mins
Welcome to the season finale of our Influential Horror Director Series! In this episode, we’re diving deep into the strange, squishy, and utterly unforgettable world of David Cronenberg — one of the most influential horror film directors of all time.
From Videodrome to The Fly, Scanners to Crash, Cronenberg carved out an entirely new subgenre: body horror. We’ll talk about the way his films explore transformation, disease, technology, sexuality, and the terrifying ways our own bodies can betray us. Expect discussions of gooey practical effects, his signature psychological underpinnings, and the themes that continue to inspire generations of filmmakers.
But it’s not all academic! We also bring our usual blend of humor and horror-geek enthusiasm. Along the way, you’ll get:
Our favorite David Cronenberg movies and why they still hold up
Insights into how his themes reshaped horror and sci-fi
Memorable Cronenberg quotes and WTF moments
Reflections on the entire Influential Director Series (and a tease of what’s next!)
Whether you’re a longtime Cronenberg fan or just body-horror-curious, this is the perfect episode to wrap up the season.
Listen now and join the conversation!
👉 Follow us on social media for more horror, true crime, and psychology:
Instagram: @terrortalkpodcast
YouTube: TerrorTalk Podcast
Facebook: Halloween All Year Long
🎵 Music by Mannequin Uprising
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Certified Fresh and what criticsare calling the best movie of
the year period 28 Years Later with Ray Fiennes, Aaron Taylor
Johnson and Jodie Comer and directed by Academy Award winner
Danny Boyle, is now available towatch on digital.
Also upcoming in our new season,we are reviewing all three
movies, including this movie that we loved 28 Years Later.
(00:23):
Enjoy the show. Hey, everybody, welcome to the
(00:45):
show. We're going to talk.
Or directors. Yeah, one in particular, I'm
told. You are correct.
I just noticed that your little Jack Skellington, he and I
matched today. Nice, nice, nice.
Yes, Kathy's wearing a Jack Skellington T-shirt and I, I
mean button down. Excuse me.
(01:08):
And I have my Jack Skellington pen because it's the Halloween
season. It we're we're, we're there,
we're, we're there. Yep, we're there.
In a few weeks, we are. There's going to be the signage,
the candy. I was, I was kind of in my mind,
I always go, OK, what? What's the first thing I see for
(01:28):
the season? Maybe it's a decoration.
Maybe it's a can candy. And then I'm like, ah, it has
begun. Yeah.
But you know who else brings us into the Halloween season?
Who? David Cronenberg.
Well, there it is. So he's going to finish up, at
least for now, our director series.
Until you come up with 10 more, yeah.
(01:49):
I mean, there's so many influential ones, but we clearly
know that some have influenced at least the mainstream audience
more than others, and he being one of them.
He's a funny guy. I was watching some interviews
with him. I like him.
He's got AI think. What I like about him, and I'll
talk about this towards the end of the episode today, is that he
(02:13):
has this. I don't know if it I don't.
I wouldn't call it cynicism, buthe has a very gallow sense of
humor. I mean, you would have to do the
amount of body or that he does, but he's deeply psychological.
Oh, that's. Awesome.
Yeah. And so it that that doesn't come
across as much in his movies, but I think obviously we all
(02:34):
become a little bit more existential and things as we age
and things adopt different meanings.
But, and he's evolved obviously quite a bit over the decades
he's been doing this, but he comes from a, a very artistic
background. He's a deep thinker.
He was a novelist. And then like for all of us,
(02:55):
things happen throughout his lifetime which changed what the
themes of his movies became and they really evolved.
So let me talk a little bit about who he is for those people
who may not be as familiar. So David Cronenberg, he was born
March 15th, 1943. He's, he's a Canadian, nice.
(03:15):
He's from Toronto and we know that Toronto has big film
festivals and they're pretty, pretty artistic city, beautiful
city. And so he is a Canadian film
director and he's influenced some other Canadian film
directors as as much as some American film directors.
And I'll talk about that in a moment too.
He's also been a screenwriter, an actor.
(03:37):
He's best known for movies that employed elements of horror and
science fiction, somewhat of a hybrid.
And he vividly explores the disturbing intersections between
technology, the human body and subconscious desire.
And that's where some of the more psychological stuff comes
from, is like those unconscious drives.
And he goes into that a little bit more in his interviews,
(04:01):
which I think he's a fun guy to watch because he's not.
Some directors are really dry where he's he's.
Pretty good or more cerebral? Or more cerebral.
And he definitely has it. He's a very intelligent, but he
knows how to bring the humor. So he is known as the King of
Venereal Horror, Alrighty, or the Baron of Blood.
What is the What is venereal horror?
(04:23):
Bodily, yeah. And and Baron of Blood is
another term they've used. Like I like body horror, but I
don't know if I want to be a fanof venereal horror.
It sounds like a disease. All about STDs.
Yeah, I know I was. Thinking like.
I had to look it up to make surethat's what I was, what it was,
and it is. Venereal horror came.
(04:44):
There you go. That's nice.
So and I think some of that doescome down to if you, if you know
his films that the body horror that he uses sometimes come from
some form of infection. It's just not in the genitalia,
OK? There, I'm glad they spread it
around. No pun intended.
Everybody gets some. He pioneered the body horror
(05:09):
genre. He, I mean, it maybe existed
before him, but he made it famous and he made it a genre
that involves mutation, parasites or particular medical
conditions. And another thing he's
frequently he's known for is frequently using the music of
(05:32):
Howard Shore, who's a great composer that's done a lot of
films, but that's kind of his goto, kind of like Spielberg uses
John Williams. So I wanted to just go over
first what body horror is for people who maybe don't know the
genre, but it's a specific type of bodily imagery in horror
(05:52):
films and can also be considereda sub genre unto itself.
The term is versatile and a little bit flexible.
One film might contain elements of the sub genre, while another
might be considered a body horror film.
Full stop. The goal of this sub genre is
sub genre is usually to gross out and to disturb viewers.
(06:16):
And if it's done well, it's incredibly effective.
Yes. And I know, Shannon, that that
is one of the subgenres that youenjoy if it's done well.
Yeah. You bet.
It typically revolves around distortions of the human body.
So that could be through mutilation, it could be through
transition. And what I mean transition like,
(06:38):
you know, it could be a medical condition, it could be something
more sci-fi where the person's body doesn't transition in a
positive way, but more towards something much deeper rooted in
either a monster or a disintegration, I guess.
(06:59):
But it it isn't about the human body being destroyed, but more
so about a transformation into something grotesque.
So things like diseases, viruses, infections and
parasites are common in these movies, and that's probably why
he's called the king of venerealhorror.
So these films often take on a surreal sci-fi or supernatural
quality, mutating the human forminto something that would be
(07:23):
impossible in real life. At least with his movies, right?
And the body horror genre typically features a focus on
special effects and often includes social commentary as
well. We know that there are other
subgenres of body horror that are much more focused on like
mutilation and horror, where I think Cronenberg's is much more
(07:45):
like sci-fi. I think in the majority of his
films, I would argue so he, his father, Milton Cronenberg, was a
journalist and editor. And his mother, Esther Sundberg,
was her maiden name. She was a a pianist, she was a
piano player and he was Cronenberg.
David Cronenberg was a great writer from the time he was a
(08:08):
child. And he excelled in literature,
creating eerie short stories. So from as early as he can
remember, he, he just would sit and write and that was like a
huge outlet for him. And he would write these really
ominous, kind of dark, fun stories.
In 1967, he graduated from the University of Toronto with a
(08:29):
bachelor's degree in English. And then between 1966 and 1970,
he began his fascination with filmmaking and created several
short and feature length experimental films.
So in the early 70s he'd been working in Canadian television
and ended up directing his firstcommercial film, Shivers, and
(08:51):
that was 1975. An alternative title was They
Came From Within. I've heard both of those being
used and the film was incrediblylow budget.
It focused on artificially engineered on an artificially
engineered parasite that transforms an apartment complex
of wealthy residents into lustful maniacs.
(09:11):
Sounds fun. I I love the shit that he writes
and he is funny. He'll talk about like some
people get the humor, some don't.
And he's even talked about the different film festivals where
like, he's like, I love the audiences that can, like, laugh
at the macabre. You know, some of them feel, he
was saying some of them feel like they shouldn't laugh
(09:35):
because it's just kind of fun laugh too.
Yeah. And he's like, man, I really
love the ones that just let themselves laugh at like, how
dark is it the most? Horrible shit.
Yeah, it's nice to know that's his goal, right?
Yeah. I mean, he, I think he just
really likes for the audience toto be really affected in one way
(09:56):
or the other, but also affected in a way that maybe isn't an
expected response. And again, here's the
psychology, right. Like he goes, I thoroughly
enjoyed when people were laughing at the end of the
Shrouds, which I'm going to talkabout.
And he goes in and he said, but I was at another Film Festival
(10:19):
where they felt badly about it because it was influenced by the
death of my wife. So I was like, you know, so he
should we. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And he's like, I loved the audience that got it.
So a lot of people believe that that this film Shivers or They
Came from Within was about shockvalue, where Cronenberg was
beginning to exercise the fragility of integrity,
(10:41):
especially pertaining to the human mind, which became a
preoccupation in the themes of his future film.
So it I mean, of course there's shock value, but I think he's
he's a lot deeper than that. And I think we start to see that
as he matures through his filmmaking.
But I wanted to maybe pause herebecause I have something for
(11:04):
you. Would that possibly be a little
thing that we like to call? Cronin facts with girl.
Why yes, that is what it is. Number one.
Crony facts with. Crony facts with.
I like when you change the names.
Cronenberg was offered the chance to direct this big budget
(11:24):
1983 sci-fi film, but declined. OK. #2 Following in his mother's
footsteps, he played this classical instrument until he
was 12. Was it the guitar, the violin,
or the piano #3 This Cronenberg directed film was a look at how
(11:46):
the intense relationship betweenCarl Jung and Sigmund Freud
gives birth to psychoanalysis. I liked this movie, unlike many
people who watched it. OK, spoiler. #4 his crew
referred to the final Brundle fly monster seen in the climax
(12:12):
of the fly as a Captain Seth B space bug or C Admiral Admiral
splat those. Are all fun.
And then #5 which Cronenberg directed film is about a man
(12:33):
filled with disillusion and dissatisfaction, so he murders
his wife and escapes to the fantasy world of Interzone.
OK. Thank you for that.
Yeah, look at the answers at theend, man.
I have an article here from The New Yorker by Logan Hill and
it's called Influences David Cronenberg.
I've been talking a lot about his influence, the science
(12:56):
fiction aspect of his films thathe uses.
Cronenberg found his cult following after he directed a
movie called Rabid in 1977, and this at the time starred an
adult film star, Marilyn Chambers.
And she was the victim of a surgery that leaves her with
vampiric tendencies. And then The Brood in 1979, in
(13:21):
which a woman's rage causes the psychosomatic birth of deformed,
murderous children. I mean, I fucking love the where
his head goes. Sounds perky.
Yeah. It's like, you know, this woman
gets a bad surgery. She's just becomes a blood
sucker. The other one becomes rageful
and and has a psychosomatic birth.
(13:43):
I mean, OK. Of deformed, murderous children
was the brood. That's another really famous
one. Yeah, Yes, yes, it is.
So when he made the film Rabid in 1977, Cronenberg was coming
off the success of Shivers. So it's just two years after and
he had returned $5,000,000 on $180,000 budget and the film
(14:08):
would be called Mosquito and staying true to form this modern
day take it vampirism would be 1of biology rather than
supernatural. So Cronenberg was much more
about science than he was about using anything mystical
supernatural. Like the reasons for
transformations that we might see in horror films are
(14:32):
somebody's possessed, somebody'sa ghost, somebody right?
His was all he wanted to focus more on biologically.
How could someone fuck themselves up so bad or
something happen? Yeah, 'cause it's more rooted in
a totally. Yeah, Yeah.
So that's always scarier. And I think that's something
(14:52):
that he does well, is it? He gets us all to kind of look
at our own bodies and what they could do, even though it may not
be realistic. It's like, oh, my body could rot
or I guess I could transform into a family.
There's nothing mystical if if something were to go wrong.
And that to me is much more terrifying.
(15:13):
And this is coming from someone who's not, like, a huge sci-fi
person. So an article by Andrus
Bergstrom from 2018 explores Cronenberg's exploration of body
horror and medical interventionsthat have gone bad.
So he says this one thematic through line in Cronenberg's
cinema is its clear rejection ofreligion as a source for
meaning, which contrasts in manyways with the cinematic genre he
(15:37):
is best known for, horror. Horror is often analyzed as a
religious genre fascinated with the demonic and the existence of
supernatural evil. Yet Cronenberg is not just
passively but consciously anti religious.
As he has said, he explicitly does not want to promote
supernatural thinking. Cronenberg's parents, while
(15:58):
culturally Jewish, were in his own words, anti religious, but
not not in a proselytizing way. Well, he claims he doesn't hold
any particular animosity towardsreligion.
It does not play a role in the kinds of stories he's interested
in exploring. So in the film Rabid, he says,
you know regarding Rabbit, the film is not a mere metaphor for
(16:20):
decay. The vampire in the film is quite
different from something in a Romero film, such as a metaphor
for human depravity. Instead, Rabbit is about the
horror of being betrayed by one's own body.
The antagonist is horrified by her transformation, similar to
what we may have seen in his movie The Fly.
So in this, on a larger scale, if we take it out of the sci-fi
(16:44):
metaphor, really has to do with if we're all fortunate enough to
age, our bodies start to betray us, right?
And that's scary. And he does it in a, in a, in a
horror way. But I think we all have fears
around that, even if they aren'tconscious.
Yeah, of course. So in an article by Andrew
(17:05):
Taylor called How David Cronenberg's The Fly examines
the ultimate body horror, it's in The Fly that he found his
most relatable horror, that of being a mind located in a body
subject to decay. And if that isn't, you know,
aging can really apply to that. Oh yeah.
So I just want, I want to pause here for a moment, Shannon, and
(17:25):
talk a little bit about some of the psychology of his films and
wanted to see if you had maybe any comments or thoughts about
his work and if there are any movies that and doesn't have to
be specific to psychology, but Iknow we talked about that on the
show, but maybe things about Cronenberg or some of the movies
you've seen that you've liked. Well, I love the fly, of course.
And I actually also like Dead Ringers.
(17:46):
Yeah, which is controversial, I guess.
I don't know. I think, I mean, in the 80s, I
don't know that people hated it or liked it or whatever.
I don't know. And I'm not actually familiar
with, I'm trying to think of anything more recent or, you
know, in the last 20 to 30 yearsinstead of really old ones.
(18:07):
And I can't. I don't know his more recent
films as well, but. The dead zone is another one.
Oh. Videodrome.
Gotcha. See scanners.
The brood which we talked about.Naked lunch.
Rabid. Naked Lunch.
Oh Jesus, that film. So I mean he's.
(18:31):
That's a crazy film and. Then I'll talk about this here
in a minute. But he, his genre, his sub genre
or his, his focus of films changed at the turn of the
millennial century. And then he kind of went back
and I'll talk about that here ina minute.
Too, he was an actor in Jason X.Yeah, yeah, he's, he's, he's
been in several films. Yeah, like little bit parts,
(18:54):
right? Yeah, yeah, Little.
Bit parts and I do remember shivers.
And scanners is fun. And Oh my God, scanners.
But I guess there's this like this idea of being trapped and,
you know, we don't all start oldand the idea that our bodies
begin to fail us or slow down. And we're consciously aware of
this process as it's happening. And we're all like eventually
(19:16):
rudely interrupted by getting older and our body changing and
this, yes. It's very rude.
It's very rude, but but I think that it's also a commentary on
technology. He uses a lot of technology and.
Oh yeah, right. Like, and I was just looking at
his list and I, I crimes of the future, how can I forget?
And I didn't really like that film.
(19:37):
But talk about technology. Jeez.
Yeah, no, I mean in that's a big, sometimes he'll use both of
those and sometimes it's one or the other.
Here's here's something he said about the body, which I thought
was cool. So he's talking about Doctor
Seth Brundle in The Fly, he says.
In the bathroom, we witnessed Brundle's most cringe inducing
transformation as he pulls out nails and squirts pus from his
(20:00):
fingers. Later, he collects lost teeth
and other parts in the medicine cabinet, displaying the
fascination we have for things that come off our body.
Animate objects made inanimate. I mean, we have dreams of our
teeth falling out. Oh, definitely right.
So he he unlike many directors he didn't start as a broad
(20:20):
mainstream filmmaker and and andtransition to more of a serious
artistic filmmaker. As his skills developed his
career started quite differentlyin that his early work adhered
more towards prescribed forms and only over time did he become
more involved and changed the scale of films over decades.
So the themes of his movies wereabout world altering situations,
(20:41):
but over time became more personal and relationship
relational. So it started more appear big
and then, you know, the the protagonist maybe was an
extension of the larger world. And then as he started to make
more and more films, the protagonist became the center.
And so they go on to talk about how like the character of the
(21:03):
mad scientist has been at the center of his plots while at the
beginning serving more as this unseen meddler, but over time
becomes the center of the film and the subjects of critical
inquiry. And this is from the article by
Bergstrom. And so we certainly see this in
Jeff Goldblum's character and Doctor Seth Brundle.
I mean, he is the center of thatfilm.
It's not the world. So the turn of the century, his
(21:27):
his focus shift a bit, shifts a bit in the 21st century.
He begins making films such as AHistory of Violence with Vigo
Mortensen, I believe A DangerousMethod, which had Vigo also, and
Keira Knightley about the relationship between Freud and
Carl Young. The earlier part of the 2000s
moved more towards behavioral and psychological extremes.
(21:51):
And now, most recently, he's back directing movies like The
Shrouds, which is a a dark exploration of grief and again,
technology in in which a businessman creates a device
that allows mourners to watch their deceased loved one's
bodies decay. And crimes of the future.
Which one? Yeah, Yikes.
And so I watched this interview where he talks about the making
(22:17):
his whole process of writing TheShrouds.
And this happened as it was influenced by his the passing of
his wife in 2017 from cancer. And he commented on how it was
just a torturous time for him. It was one of the hardest times
of his life and he was dealing with grief when he started
writing it. They've been together for 43
years. They'd raise three children.
(22:37):
You know, his son Brandon now isup and coming and he's great.
Well, let me let me tell you what the movie's about first.
So it follows an eco conscious businessman, Karsh, played by
Vincent Cassell, who mourns the death of his wife Becca, played
by Diane Kruger, who's phenomenal in everything she
does, in my opinion. With a new technology he calls
grave tech, a shroud containing cameras that allows you to watch
(23:01):
a loved one's a loved one's decay.
The film raises the question of whether there can be life after
for death, not for the dead, butfor those they leave behind.
You know, like we say, death is really for the living, right?
We're the ones who suffer. And so he talks a little bit
about his process in this. And there's a New York Film
Festival interview. He says as you start to write a
(23:22):
story based on those emotions, you cannot, you can't believe
the responses you are having. It's all empowered by your
response to the situation. It is not therapeutic or
cathartic. It's something else, but it's
not that you can't be wallowing in your grief or swallowed by
your rage. You really have to have some
(23:42):
distance to create something that is alive.
And so he discusses the complexities, feelings, even
finding himself laughing a lot while making the film.
So the interview's really great,and it's a New York Film
Festival. It's from this year, I think.
And he talks about how he reallyhad to be in a place where he
was far enough away from it, otherwise the script would not
(24:05):
have been what it became. He says, when I was writing it,
it was probably the most emotional part of it, but I was
laughing too, by the way. But as you're writing it, you're
creating a fiction. So already at that point you're
distancing yourself from the rawemotion of the events, the
events of your life. So at that whole there's there's
(24:25):
like an hour long interview. And if people really like him,
it's just a very interesting take on how he wrote.
And this is his newest film, so it's relevant.
And then I'll just end with someof the influences that I, I
mean, I think it's safe to say that he's influenced so many
modern day film makers regardingbody horror.
Interesting enough, a lot of female film makers, so like
(24:49):
Titan, the substance. He's also influenced films like
Human Centipede, American Mary, and he's he's not only a master
of body horror, but someone who uses the grotesque to explore
the various uncomfortable transformations in life, not
limited to death, illness, and aging.
So he's one of the, out of all the directors that I've reviewed
(25:13):
over this series, he's by far one of the deepest, I think.
Yeah, and you can tell just by the films.
Yeah, The Shrouds was out in April.
I enjoyed him even more after I watched a bunch of his
interviews and he also has an interview where he talks about
David Lynch and you can see, I'msure, how they got along.
(25:33):
Very. Well, yeah, definitely.
And it's an he's an acquired taste.
He is. I mean, I liked A Dangerous
Method a lot for obvious reasons.
I did too. And but maybe for those obvious
reasons, is why. Yeah.
So I can understand how a mainstream population maybe.
Didn't. Understand it or didn't dig it
(25:54):
because it was very talky, talkytalk instead of, you know, let
me turn into a family, right? Although Freud may have had
something to say about me, I get.
It Oh, I'm sure he would. I'm sure Freud would have
something to say about. All the everything.
Especially. It all has to do with repressed.
In our current culture. Sexual repression.
(26:14):
I mean, you think about things that are happening currently,
maybe true. True story.
Maybe so. You want.
Some answers I think we have to,you know.
Cronin fast pretty girl. I think I was turning into a
family during that. Right.
I felt assaulted did. Cronenberg was offered the
(26:36):
chance to direct this big budget1983 sci-fi film, but declined.
I have no idea. Return of the Jedi.
Oh, really? Yeah, that would have been a
very different film. Yeah, it would have.
Following in his mother's footsteps, he played this
classical instrument until he was 12.
(26:56):
Guitar, violin or piano? I mean, all little boys want to
play the guitar. I don't.
Know classical guitar? I was going to say piano at
first because like, pianos are the gateway.
And that's what his mom played. A lot of times, like the gateway
instrument to learn music in general.
But yeah, he played. I don't know.
Every boy I knew wanted to play the guitar and be a rock.
(27:18):
Star He played classical guitar #3 This Cronenberg directed film
was a look at how the intense relationship between Carl Jung
and Sigmund Freud gives birth topsychoanalysis.
A dangerous method, correct? His crew referred to the final
Brundle fly monster seen in the climax of the fly as Captain
(27:40):
Seth Spacebug or Admiral Splat. I mean, I would say Captain
Seth. Spacebug.
OK, so random. I know Seth is the yeah,
scientist or whatever that's in that.
And then which grace bug? Grace bug?
So you came up with Captain? Captain Seth.
And the other one. Yes, something splat, Admiral,
(28:02):
Splat. I was like, what are some other
words for fly and that came up Splat.
I'm like, that's funny. Which Cronen?
Which Cronenberg directed film is about a man with disillusion
and dissatisfaction, so he murders his wife and escapes to
the fantasy world of Interzone? I don't know, it's naked lunch.
Ah. Gotcha.
(28:24):
Yeah, that movie, remember very little like literal things about
that movie. It's like, I don't know if I've
seen it all the way it's. Like images and chaos is when I
like. I would never even remember what
characters names were or anything.
It's just very esoteric maybe. We'll do a maybe we'll do a
(28:46):
series on grief or. Oh my God.
For the for the fall, because with this one being released,
there's so many, right? 12 part grief seems like, seems
like every time we turn around on our shrink chat shows we're
going like, so this is another offering to the grief or so
true. Anyway.
(29:06):
Right on. Thank you so much for that.
I dig them. Yes.
Lovely finale to your influential horror director
series for this season. I wonder what you'll get up to
next season. But you guys will have to tune
in to season 8, which starts in September.
We we do yearly seasons basically, and they we don't
take a break. They just start in September and
(29:28):
they roll all through the year. So we're coming up on season 8.
Can you believe it? No, Thank you for listening.
This has been an episode of Terror Talk.
My name is. Shannon and I'm Kathy.
Sleep safe everyone.
Certified Fresh and what criticsare calling the best movie of
the year period 28 Years Later with Ray Fiennes, Aaron Taylor
Johnson and Jodie Comer and directed by Academy Award winner
Danny Boyle, is now available towatch on digital.
Also upcoming in our new season,we are reviewing all three
movies, including this movie that we loved 28 Years Later.
(00:23):
Enjoy the show. Hey, everybody, welcome to the
(00:45):
show. We're going to talk.
Or directors. Yeah, one in particular, I'm
told. You are correct.
I just noticed that your little Jack Skellington, he and I
matched today. Nice, nice, nice.
Yes, Kathy's wearing a Jack Skellington T-shirt and I, I
mean button down. Excuse me.
(01:08):
And I have my Jack Skellington pen because it's the Halloween
season. It we're we're, we're there,
we're, we're there. Yep, we're there.
In a few weeks, we are. There's going to be the signage,
the candy. I was, I was kind of in my mind,
I always go, OK, what? What's the first thing I see for
(01:28):
the season? Maybe it's a decoration.
Maybe it's a can candy. And then I'm like, ah, it has
begun. Yeah.
But you know who else brings us into the Halloween season?
Who? David Cronenberg.
Well, there it is. So he's going to finish up, at
least for now, our director series.
Until you come up with 10 more, yeah.
(01:49):
I mean, there's so many influential ones, but we clearly
know that some have influenced at least the mainstream audience
more than others, and he being one of them.
He's a funny guy. I was watching some interviews
with him. I like him.
He's got AI think. What I like about him, and I'll
talk about this towards the end of the episode today, is that he
(02:13):
has this. I don't know if it I don't.
I wouldn't call it cynicism, buthe has a very gallow sense of
humor. I mean, you would have to do the
amount of body or that he does, but he's deeply psychological.
Oh, that's. Awesome.
Yeah. And so it that that doesn't come
across as much in his movies, but I think obviously we all
(02:34):
become a little bit more existential and things as we age
and things adopt different meanings.
But, and he's evolved obviously quite a bit over the decades
he's been doing this, but he comes from a, a very artistic
background. He's a deep thinker.
He was a novelist. And then like for all of us,
(02:55):
things happen throughout his lifetime which changed what the
themes of his movies became and they really evolved.
So let me talk a little bit about who he is for those people
who may not be as familiar. So David Cronenberg, he was born
March 15th, 1943. He's, he's a Canadian, nice.
(03:15):
He's from Toronto and we know that Toronto has big film
festivals and they're pretty, pretty artistic city, beautiful
city. And so he is a Canadian film
director and he's influenced some other Canadian film
directors as as much as some American film directors.
And I'll talk about that in a moment too.
He's also been a screenwriter, an actor.
(03:37):
He's best known for movies that employed elements of horror and
science fiction, somewhat of a hybrid.
And he vividly explores the disturbing intersections between
technology, the human body and subconscious desire.
And that's where some of the more psychological stuff comes
from, is like those unconscious drives.
And he goes into that a little bit more in his interviews,
(04:01):
which I think he's a fun guy to watch because he's not.
Some directors are really dry where he's he's.
Pretty good or more cerebral? Or more cerebral.
And he definitely has it. He's a very intelligent, but he
knows how to bring the humor. So he is known as the King of
Venereal Horror, Alrighty, or the Baron of Blood.
What is the What is venereal horror?
(04:23):
Bodily, yeah. And and Baron of Blood is
another term they've used. Like I like body horror, but I
don't know if I want to be a fanof venereal horror.
It sounds like a disease. All about STDs.
Yeah, I know I was. Thinking like.
I had to look it up to make surethat's what I was, what it was,
and it is. Venereal horror came.
(04:44):
There you go. That's nice.
So and I think some of that doescome down to if you, if you know
his films that the body horror that he uses sometimes come from
some form of infection. It's just not in the genitalia,
OK? There, I'm glad they spread it
around. No pun intended.
Everybody gets some. He pioneered the body horror
(05:09):
genre. He, I mean, it maybe existed
before him, but he made it famous and he made it a genre
that involves mutation, parasites or particular medical
conditions. And another thing he's
frequently he's known for is frequently using the music of
(05:32):
Howard Shore, who's a great composer that's done a lot of
films, but that's kind of his goto, kind of like Spielberg uses
John Williams. So I wanted to just go over
first what body horror is for people who maybe don't know the
genre, but it's a specific type of bodily imagery in horror
(05:52):
films and can also be considereda sub genre unto itself.
The term is versatile and a little bit flexible.
One film might contain elements of the sub genre, while another
might be considered a body horror film.
Full stop. The goal of this sub genre is
sub genre is usually to gross out and to disturb viewers.
(06:16):
And if it's done well, it's incredibly effective.
Yes. And I know, Shannon, that that
is one of the subgenres that youenjoy if it's done well.
Yeah. You bet.
It typically revolves around distortions of the human body.
So that could be through mutilation, it could be through
transition. And what I mean transition like,
(06:38):
you know, it could be a medical condition, it could be something
more sci-fi where the person's body doesn't transition in a
positive way, but more towards something much deeper rooted in
either a monster or a disintegration, I guess.
(06:59):
But it it isn't about the human body being destroyed, but more
so about a transformation into something grotesque.
So things like diseases, viruses, infections and
parasites are common in these movies, and that's probably why
he's called the king of venerealhorror.
So these films often take on a surreal sci-fi or supernatural
quality, mutating the human forminto something that would be
(07:23):
impossible in real life. At least with his movies, right?
And the body horror genre typically features a focus on
special effects and often includes social commentary as
well. We know that there are other
subgenres of body horror that are much more focused on like
mutilation and horror, where I think Cronenberg's is much more
(07:45):
like sci-fi. I think in the majority of his
films, I would argue so he, his father, Milton Cronenberg, was a
journalist and editor. And his mother, Esther Sundberg,
was her maiden name. She was a a pianist, she was a
piano player and he was Cronenberg.
David Cronenberg was a great writer from the time he was a
(08:08):
child. And he excelled in literature,
creating eerie short stories. So from as early as he can
remember, he, he just would sit and write and that was like a
huge outlet for him. And he would write these really
ominous, kind of dark, fun stories.
In 1967, he graduated from the University of Toronto with a
(08:29):
bachelor's degree in English. And then between 1966 and 1970,
he began his fascination with filmmaking and created several
short and feature length experimental films.
So in the early 70s he'd been working in Canadian television
and ended up directing his firstcommercial film, Shivers, and
(08:51):
that was 1975. An alternative title was They
Came From Within. I've heard both of those being
used and the film was incrediblylow budget.
It focused on artificially engineered on an artificially
engineered parasite that transforms an apartment complex
of wealthy residents into lustful maniacs.
(09:11):
Sounds fun. I I love the shit that he writes
and he is funny. He'll talk about like some
people get the humor, some don't.
And he's even talked about the different film festivals where
like, he's like, I love the audiences that can, like, laugh
at the macabre. You know, some of them feel, he
was saying some of them feel like they shouldn't laugh
(09:35):
because it's just kind of fun laugh too.
Yeah. And he's like, man, I really
love the ones that just let themselves laugh at like, how
dark is it the most? Horrible shit.
Yeah, it's nice to know that's his goal, right?
Yeah. I mean, he, I think he just
really likes for the audience toto be really affected in one way
(09:56):
or the other, but also affected in a way that maybe isn't an
expected response. And again, here's the
psychology, right. Like he goes, I thoroughly
enjoyed when people were laughing at the end of the
Shrouds, which I'm going to talkabout.
And he goes in and he said, but I was at another Film Festival
(10:19):
where they felt badly about it because it was influenced by the
death of my wife. So I was like, you know, so he
should we. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And he's like, I loved the audience that got it.
So a lot of people believe that that this film Shivers or They
Came from Within was about shockvalue, where Cronenberg was
beginning to exercise the fragility of integrity,
(10:41):
especially pertaining to the human mind, which became a
preoccupation in the themes of his future film.
So it I mean, of course there's shock value, but I think he's
he's a lot deeper than that. And I think we start to see that
as he matures through his filmmaking.
But I wanted to maybe pause herebecause I have something for
(11:04):
you. Would that possibly be a little
thing that we like to call? Cronin facts with girl.
Why yes, that is what it is. Number one.
Crony facts with. Crony facts with.
I like when you change the names.
Cronenberg was offered the chance to direct this big budget
(11:24):
1983 sci-fi film, but declined. OK. #2 Following in his mother's
footsteps, he played this classical instrument until he
was 12. Was it the guitar, the violin,
or the piano #3 This Cronenberg directed film was a look at how
(11:46):
the intense relationship betweenCarl Jung and Sigmund Freud
gives birth to psychoanalysis. I liked this movie, unlike many
people who watched it. OK, spoiler. #4 his crew
referred to the final Brundle fly monster seen in the climax
(12:12):
of the fly as a Captain Seth B space bug or C Admiral Admiral
splat those. Are all fun.
And then #5 which Cronenberg directed film is about a man
(12:33):
filled with disillusion and dissatisfaction, so he murders
his wife and escapes to the fantasy world of Interzone.
OK. Thank you for that.
Yeah, look at the answers at theend, man.
I have an article here from The New Yorker by Logan Hill and
it's called Influences David Cronenberg.
I've been talking a lot about his influence, the science
(12:56):
fiction aspect of his films thathe uses.
Cronenberg found his cult following after he directed a
movie called Rabid in 1977, and this at the time starred an
adult film star, Marilyn Chambers.
And she was the victim of a surgery that leaves her with
vampiric tendencies. And then The Brood in 1979, in
(13:21):
which a woman's rage causes the psychosomatic birth of deformed,
murderous children. I mean, I fucking love the where
his head goes. Sounds perky.
Yeah. It's like, you know, this woman
gets a bad surgery. She's just becomes a blood
sucker. The other one becomes rageful
and and has a psychosomatic birth.
(13:43):
I mean, OK. Of deformed, murderous children
was the brood. That's another really famous
one. Yeah, Yes, yes, it is.
So when he made the film Rabid in 1977, Cronenberg was coming
off the success of Shivers. So it's just two years after and
he had returned $5,000,000 on $180,000 budget and the film
(14:08):
would be called Mosquito and staying true to form this modern
day take it vampirism would be 1of biology rather than
supernatural. So Cronenberg was much more
about science than he was about using anything mystical
supernatural. Like the reasons for
transformations that we might see in horror films are
(14:32):
somebody's possessed, somebody'sa ghost, somebody right?
His was all he wanted to focus more on biologically.
How could someone fuck themselves up so bad or
something happen? Yeah, 'cause it's more rooted in
a totally. Yeah, Yeah.
So that's always scarier. And I think that's something
(14:52):
that he does well, is it? He gets us all to kind of look
at our own bodies and what they could do, even though it may not
be realistic. It's like, oh, my body could rot
or I guess I could transform into a family.
There's nothing mystical if if something were to go wrong.
And that to me is much more terrifying.
(15:13):
And this is coming from someone who's not, like, a huge sci-fi
person. So an article by Andrus
Bergstrom from 2018 explores Cronenberg's exploration of body
horror and medical interventionsthat have gone bad.
So he says this one thematic through line in Cronenberg's
cinema is its clear rejection ofreligion as a source for
meaning, which contrasts in manyways with the cinematic genre he
(15:37):
is best known for, horror. Horror is often analyzed as a
religious genre fascinated with the demonic and the existence of
supernatural evil. Yet Cronenberg is not just
passively but consciously anti religious.
As he has said, he explicitly does not want to promote
supernatural thinking. Cronenberg's parents, while
(15:58):
culturally Jewish, were in his own words, anti religious, but
not not in a proselytizing way. Well, he claims he doesn't hold
any particular animosity towardsreligion.
It does not play a role in the kinds of stories he's interested
in exploring. So in the film Rabid, he says,
you know regarding Rabbit, the film is not a mere metaphor for
(16:20):
decay. The vampire in the film is quite
different from something in a Romero film, such as a metaphor
for human depravity. Instead, Rabbit is about the
horror of being betrayed by one's own body.
The antagonist is horrified by her transformation, similar to
what we may have seen in his movie The Fly.
So in this, on a larger scale, if we take it out of the sci-fi
(16:44):
metaphor, really has to do with if we're all fortunate enough to
age, our bodies start to betray us, right?
And that's scary. And he does it in a, in a, in a
horror way. But I think we all have fears
around that, even if they aren'tconscious.
Yeah, of course. So in an article by Andrew
(17:05):
Taylor called How David Cronenberg's The Fly examines
the ultimate body horror, it's in The Fly that he found his
most relatable horror, that of being a mind located in a body
subject to decay. And if that isn't, you know,
aging can really apply to that. Oh yeah.
So I just want, I want to pause here for a moment, Shannon, and
(17:25):
talk a little bit about some of the psychology of his films and
wanted to see if you had maybe any comments or thoughts about
his work and if there are any movies that and doesn't have to
be specific to psychology, but Iknow we talked about that on the
show, but maybe things about Cronenberg or some of the movies
you've seen that you've liked. Well, I love the fly, of course.
And I actually also like Dead Ringers.
(17:46):
Yeah, which is controversial, I guess.
I don't know. I think, I mean, in the 80s, I
don't know that people hated it or liked it or whatever.
I don't know. And I'm not actually familiar
with, I'm trying to think of anything more recent or, you
know, in the last 20 to 30 yearsinstead of really old ones.
(18:07):
And I can't. I don't know his more recent
films as well, but. The dead zone is another one.
Oh. Videodrome.
Gotcha. See scanners.
The brood which we talked about.Naked lunch.
Rabid. Naked Lunch.
Oh Jesus, that film. So I mean he's.
(18:31):
That's a crazy film and. Then I'll talk about this here
in a minute. But he, his genre, his sub genre
or his, his focus of films changed at the turn of the
millennial century. And then he kind of went back
and I'll talk about that here ina minute.
Too, he was an actor in Jason X.Yeah, yeah, he's, he's, he's
been in several films. Yeah, like little bit parts,
(18:54):
right? Yeah, yeah, Little.
Bit parts and I do remember shivers.
And scanners is fun. And Oh my God, scanners.
But I guess there's this like this idea of being trapped and,
you know, we don't all start oldand the idea that our bodies
begin to fail us or slow down. And we're consciously aware of
this process as it's happening. And we're all like eventually
(19:16):
rudely interrupted by getting older and our body changing and
this, yes. It's very rude.
It's very rude, but but I think that it's also a commentary on
technology. He uses a lot of technology and.
Oh yeah, right. Like, and I was just looking at
his list and I, I crimes of the future, how can I forget?
And I didn't really like that film.
(19:37):
But talk about technology. Jeez.
Yeah, no, I mean in that's a big, sometimes he'll use both of
those and sometimes it's one or the other.
Here's here's something he said about the body, which I thought
was cool. So he's talking about Doctor
Seth Brundle in The Fly, he says.
In the bathroom, we witnessed Brundle's most cringe inducing
transformation as he pulls out nails and squirts pus from his
(20:00):
fingers. Later, he collects lost teeth
and other parts in the medicine cabinet, displaying the
fascination we have for things that come off our body.
Animate objects made inanimate. I mean, we have dreams of our
teeth falling out. Oh, definitely right.
So he he unlike many directors he didn't start as a broad
(20:20):
mainstream filmmaker and and andtransition to more of a serious
artistic filmmaker. As his skills developed his
career started quite differentlyin that his early work adhered
more towards prescribed forms and only over time did he become
more involved and changed the scale of films over decades.
So the themes of his movies wereabout world altering situations,
(20:41):
but over time became more personal and relationship
relational. So it started more appear big
and then, you know, the the protagonist maybe was an
extension of the larger world. And then as he started to make
more and more films, the protagonist became the center.
And so they go on to talk about how like the character of the
(21:03):
mad scientist has been at the center of his plots while at the
beginning serving more as this unseen meddler, but over time
becomes the center of the film and the subjects of critical
inquiry. And this is from the article by
Bergstrom. And so we certainly see this in
Jeff Goldblum's character and Doctor Seth Brundle.
I mean, he is the center of thatfilm.
It's not the world. So the turn of the century, his
(21:27):
his focus shift a bit, shifts a bit in the 21st century.
He begins making films such as AHistory of Violence with Vigo
Mortensen, I believe A DangerousMethod, which had Vigo also, and
Keira Knightley about the relationship between Freud and
Carl Young. The earlier part of the 2000s
moved more towards behavioral and psychological extremes.
(21:51):
And now, most recently, he's back directing movies like The
Shrouds, which is a a dark exploration of grief and again,
technology in in which a businessman creates a device
that allows mourners to watch their deceased loved one's
bodies decay. And crimes of the future.
Which one? Yeah, Yikes.
And so I watched this interview where he talks about the making
(22:17):
his whole process of writing TheShrouds.
And this happened as it was influenced by his the passing of
his wife in 2017 from cancer. And he commented on how it was
just a torturous time for him. It was one of the hardest times
of his life and he was dealing with grief when he started
writing it. They've been together for 43
years. They'd raise three children.
(22:37):
You know, his son Brandon now isup and coming and he's great.
Well, let me let me tell you what the movie's about first.
So it follows an eco conscious businessman, Karsh, played by
Vincent Cassell, who mourns the death of his wife Becca, played
by Diane Kruger, who's phenomenal in everything she
does, in my opinion. With a new technology he calls
grave tech, a shroud containing cameras that allows you to watch
(23:01):
a loved one's a loved one's decay.
The film raises the question of whether there can be life after
for death, not for the dead, butfor those they leave behind.
You know, like we say, death is really for the living, right?
We're the ones who suffer. And so he talks a little bit
about his process in this. And there's a New York Film
Festival interview. He says as you start to write a
(23:22):
story based on those emotions, you cannot, you can't believe
the responses you are having. It's all empowered by your
response to the situation. It is not therapeutic or
cathartic. It's something else, but it's
not that you can't be wallowing in your grief or swallowed by
your rage. You really have to have some
(23:42):
distance to create something that is alive.
And so he discusses the complexities, feelings, even
finding himself laughing a lot while making the film.
So the interview's really great,and it's a New York Film
Festival. It's from this year, I think.
And he talks about how he reallyhad to be in a place where he
was far enough away from it, otherwise the script would not
(24:05):
have been what it became. He says, when I was writing it,
it was probably the most emotional part of it, but I was
laughing too, by the way. But as you're writing it, you're
creating a fiction. So already at that point you're
distancing yourself from the rawemotion of the events, the
events of your life. So at that whole there's there's
(24:25):
like an hour long interview. And if people really like him,
it's just a very interesting take on how he wrote.
And this is his newest film, so it's relevant.
And then I'll just end with someof the influences that I, I
mean, I think it's safe to say that he's influenced so many
modern day film makers regardingbody horror.
Interesting enough, a lot of female film makers, so like
(24:49):
Titan, the substance. He's also influenced films like
Human Centipede, American Mary, and he's he's not only a master
of body horror, but someone who uses the grotesque to explore
the various uncomfortable transformations in life, not
limited to death, illness, and aging.
So he's one of the, out of all the directors that I've reviewed
(25:13):
over this series, he's by far one of the deepest, I think.
Yeah, and you can tell just by the films.
Yeah, The Shrouds was out in April.
I enjoyed him even more after I watched a bunch of his
interviews and he also has an interview where he talks about
David Lynch and you can see, I'msure, how they got along.
(25:33):
Very. Well, yeah, definitely.
And it's an he's an acquired taste.
He is. I mean, I liked A Dangerous
Method a lot for obvious reasons.
I did too. And but maybe for those obvious
reasons, is why. Yeah.
So I can understand how a mainstream population maybe.
Didn't. Understand it or didn't dig it
(25:54):
because it was very talky, talkytalk instead of, you know, let
me turn into a family, right? Although Freud may have had
something to say about me, I get.
It Oh, I'm sure he would. I'm sure Freud would have
something to say about. All the everything.
Especially. It all has to do with repressed.
In our current culture. Sexual repression.
(26:14):
I mean, you think about things that are happening currently,
maybe true. True story.
Maybe so. You want.
Some answers I think we have to,you know.
Cronin fast pretty girl. I think I was turning into a
family during that. Right.
I felt assaulted did. Cronenberg was offered the
(26:36):
chance to direct this big budget1983 sci-fi film, but declined.
I have no idea. Return of the Jedi.
Oh, really? Yeah, that would have been a
very different film. Yeah, it would have.
Following in his mother's footsteps, he played this
classical instrument until he was 12.
(26:56):
Guitar, violin or piano? I mean, all little boys want to
play the guitar. I don't.
Know classical guitar? I was going to say piano at
first because like, pianos are the gateway.
And that's what his mom played. A lot of times, like the gateway
instrument to learn music in general.
But yeah, he played. I don't know.
Every boy I knew wanted to play the guitar and be a rock.
(27:18):
Star He played classical guitar #3 This Cronenberg directed film
was a look at how the intense relationship between Carl Jung
and Sigmund Freud gives birth topsychoanalysis.
A dangerous method, correct? His crew referred to the final
Brundle fly monster seen in the climax of the fly as Captain
(27:40):
Seth Spacebug or Admiral Splat. I mean, I would say Captain
Seth. Spacebug.
OK, so random. I know Seth is the yeah,
scientist or whatever that's in that.
And then which grace bug? Grace bug?
So you came up with Captain? Captain Seth.
And the other one. Yes, something splat, Admiral,
(28:02):
Splat. I was like, what are some other
words for fly and that came up Splat.
I'm like, that's funny. Which Cronen?
Which Cronenberg directed film is about a man with disillusion
and dissatisfaction, so he murders his wife and escapes to
the fantasy world of Interzone? I don't know, it's naked lunch.
Ah. Gotcha.
(28:24):
Yeah, that movie, remember very little like literal things about
that movie. It's like, I don't know if I've
seen it all the way it's. Like images and chaos is when I
like. I would never even remember what
characters names were or anything.
It's just very esoteric maybe. We'll do a maybe we'll do a
(28:46):
series on grief or. Oh my God.
For the for the fall, because with this one being released,
there's so many, right? 12 part grief seems like, seems
like every time we turn around on our shrink chat shows we're
going like, so this is another offering to the grief or so
true. Anyway.
(29:06):
Right on. Thank you so much for that.
I dig them. Yes.
Lovely finale to your influential horror director
series for this season. I wonder what you'll get up to
next season. But you guys will have to tune
in to season 8, which starts in September.
We we do yearly seasons basically, and they we don't
take a break. They just start in September and
(29:28):
they roll all through the year. So we're coming up on season 8.
Can you believe it? No, Thank you for listening.
This has been an episode of Terror Talk.
My name is. Shannon and I'm Kathy.
Sleep safe everyone.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!