All Episodes

April 11, 2024 57 mins

If you've ever thought about starting a podcast or a SaaS project, you'll want to listen to this episode.
 
Justin is one of the people who motivated me to get started podcasting.
He's also running a successful SaaS company, transistor.fm, which hosts this podcast.

Topics:

  • Podcasting
  • Building new SaaS (software as a service) products
  • Balancing work, side hustle, and family
  • Great places to snowboard in British Columbia

BTW. This episode was recorded last summer before I switched to transistor.fm.
I'm now on Transistor for most of a year now, and I love it.

Links from the show:


Help support the show AND learn pytest: 

  • The Complete pytest course is now a bundle, with each part available separately.
  • Whether you need to get started with pytest today, or want to power up your pytest skills, PythonTest has a course for you.

★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★
Mark as Played
Transcript

Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Justin (00:00):
No. We've never talked before. I I think we'll be

(00:02):
friends. I can tell.

Brian (00:31):
Are you familiar with this experience where people act
like your friends that you'veknown forever because they've
heard your voice a lot. And, butyou're like, I don't know who
this person is.

Justin (00:44):
I mean, they usually often people will say if they
meet me or if they end up on acall that they've if they've
listened to my my shows for along time, they'll say, I feel
like I know you. I feel like butI've had the exact experience in
reverse where I've listened tosomebody for a long time, and

(01:05):
then I get to meet them or talkto them. And I'm like, man, I
just feel like I know youbecause I've heard so many
episodes where I've been on ajourney with you throughout the,
you know, the course of yourpodcast. So, yeah, I I've
definitely had that experience.I most most of the time, it's
pretty cool actually becausethere is at least a shared

(01:27):
connection, regardless of whichside you're on.
Right? So if if you meetsomebody and you've been
listening to their podcast, youknow a lot about their story, a
lot about their life. There'ssomething you can at least talk
about, and then it's really easyfor that other person to inquire
about your life, what interestedthem in the show. There's, like,

(01:49):
stuff you can talk about. So butalmost 99.9% of the time, I
think it's been positive for meso far.

Brian (01:57):
Okay. Well, I just have, like, this feeling we're already
friends, but I don't thinkyou've ever talked to me before.

Justin (02:03):
No. We've never talked before.

Brian (02:05):
Okay. Okay.

Justin (02:05):
I I think we'll be friends. I can tell.

Brian (02:08):
Well, so, a lot of way back when. So I've been
podcasting for, since, like,2015 or something like that. And
Oh, cool. But before I gotstarted, you had a blog, or a, a
series. So I was listening to,oh, what were those guys called?

(02:28):
The the Fizzle dudes? So theFizzle podcast.

Justin (02:33):
Yep.

Brian (02:33):
Yep. So, Chase and Chase and Corbett. Yeah. Yep. And so
they were they were not inPortland area at first.
They were, like, other places,but they both, at one point,
they were both in Portland, butI don't know if they still are.

Justin (02:49):
Anyway, Chase has moved on, and I think Corbett's still
there.

Brian (02:53):
Okay. But the, I've moved on as well. I don't think I've
kept kept up on their theirpodcast, but there there were it
was very motivational. And thenI started I I I think somehow
through the I don't know if youwere on their podcast or what,
but somehow I picked up,following you. And I, like,
actually was thinking aboutdoing a podcast for, like, 2

(03:15):
year.
Okay. Oh, and just didn't pullthe trigger. And then and then
what actually pushed me over wasthat Siri a series you did, it
was must have been 2015 or 2014of, just this, like, 5 episodes,
5 or 6 episodes of and they wereshort. They were, like, 10
minutes each or something of,like Okay. What do you have to
do?
Do you remember this of how todo a podcast?

Justin (03:37):
Mhmm. Mhmm. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
I've done what was this a videoor a podcast series?

Brian (03:42):
Podcast series.

Justin (03:44):
Yeah. So I've done a couple I had a show called, I
think I've done this on a fewdifferent podcasts. I had a show
called build and launch where Idid a a miniseries on launching
a podcast. And then I think Idid it again for, the Mega Maker
podcast, which was after that.And, that's really cool that you

(04:08):
found that.
Yeah. I I, I the idea was tohelp people get started as quick
as they could and, yeah, to makethe episodes really short.

Brian (04:17):
Yeah.

Justin (04:17):
That's interesting that the path people follow to to
that's actually reallyfascinating hearing how folks
kinda, discover my work orbecome acquainted with me. So

Brian (04:30):
because yeah. I and then, so one of the things you were
recommending at the time wasjust even recorded on your
iPhone. That's good enough toget started. And I didn't think
so. I mean, I tried that, butthe, the podcasting quality was,
you know, it was one of those Ican't remember who who said

(04:53):
this, but, the the notion thatyour tastes are always, like
Mhmm.
A large better than yourabilities.

Justin (05:01):
Ira Glass. That's his famous quote on creativity.

Brian (05:04):
Okay.

Justin (05:04):
Because when you get started, if you've got good
taste, your taste is gonna faroutstrip your actual ability,
and it just takes lots and lotsof repetition of making stuff
that isn't quite up to yourstandard before you'll actually
get up to your taste level.

Brian (05:20):
Well, the the interesting thing then, one of the first
questions I kinda wanted to talkto you about is just sort of,
back in 2015, it really waskinda hard to at least it was
for me to to do to get the soundthat I wanted in a podcast, but
it seems a lot easier. Have isit have you noticed this too? Is
it easier to podcast now than itwas, say, 7 years ago or

(05:42):
something?

Justin (05:43):
I think so. I think the I mean, I remember when I
started, it was just hard tofind a microphone. I ended up
buying a Blue Yeti from Best Buybecause that was the only thing
available, you know, that Icould just go out and buy. And
now there's a couple reallygood, kind of low cost dynamic

(06:07):
microphones like the Samsung qtwo u or the ATR 21100. And
then, you know, companies likeShure have put out, like, the MV
7, which is not just an XLR mic,but also a USB mic.
So if you don't wanna do rightnow, I have a audio interface

(06:28):
that's running into my computer.But if you don't wanna do all
that, you can like my businesspartner, John, he just has the m
v 7, plugs it into his laptop,and he's, you know, off to the
races. So I think that part'sgotten easier. There's still
like to be honest, I've neverloved the sound that I've

(06:49):
gotten. You know, there's an airconditioner that's always
running here.
It's it's it's always a game.It's like a cat and mouse game
of, you know, getting what youwant. Yeah. But overall, I think
it's easier because there's moremicrophones and there's better
quality, low cost microphones.And, that alone is you know,

(07:12):
makes it, I I think, audioquality easier to achieve.
And then there's just so manymore resources out there than I
think I started podcasting in2012. And there's some resources
at the time, but everything hasjust gotten continued to evolve.
And now there's, yeah, just moreguides, more resources, more how

(07:37):
to videos.

Brian (07:39):
That

Justin (07:39):
that stuff's gotten better.

Brian (07:41):
Yeah. So, I mean, what? I started I think I started with
an 8DR 21 100, and it was goingright into my computer. I was
getting frustrated with, like,with the, I don't know, weird
noises in the room or something.So, got a power strip at that
point and for the noise gatepart of it, but then tried to

(08:03):
play with the the well, I guessnot a power strip, but one of
those, like, audio strips withthe noise gate and whatever.

Justin (08:09):
Oh, you have, like, a DBX

Brian (08:11):
Yeah. Yeah. 26 or something? Exactly. It was a DBX
2 286 because Yeah.
I don't know the dude from DanBenjamin, I think, recommended
it. Yeah. And, yeah. So I triedthat, and I'm like, it's a $100.
I'll try that.
Yeah. But so it was such acomplicated setup for a while.
And now, what? I've got, thisisn't, like, a plug for all this

(08:32):
stuff, but, yeah, I got a fairlyexpensive mic, but it's, like,
$100 or so. That's not bad.
It's like a pro caster orsomething. And then, and then it
goes right into the Wave XLR,which is, who does that? I don't
know. Stream stream people? Idon't know.

Justin (08:49):
Oh. But Like, it's a it's like a like a audio booster
or something? Or

Brian (08:55):
What is it? It's the same like, there's,

Justin (09:00):
it they've Some sort of audio interface that

Brian (09:02):
Yeah. It's an audio interface with a built in, with
a built in, noise gate and ampand preamp. Perfect. And and
it's like, wow. I this is bettersound than just plugging a USB
mic into my computer.
But Yeah. But it's totally smalland easy now. And, you know, a

(09:23):
stream deck to turn on lights ifI wanted to. Don't anyway, it's
gotten a little easier, but I Iand what's what's funny is I've
spent, like, 1,000 over themaybe not 1,000, plural, but at
least a 1,000 on audio equipmentover the years. And Yeah.
My my setup now is probably 200bucks. So Yeah.

Justin (09:44):
That's great.

Brian (09:45):
But I

Justin (09:46):
should I should get those specs from you offline
because, yeah, I'm alwaysinterested in good setups that
just work. I think that's theother advantage is that people
find something that work, andthen they just share, like,
here's what I found. It worksgreat. I just, found this this
microphone arm here. And beforeeveryone was recommending the

(10:07):
blue compass, and this arm herefrom Elgato is, like, a 1,000
times better.
And I'm just like, I gotta startrecommending this. I don't know
why everyone's recommending theother thing.

Brian (10:17):
Oh. And Interesting.

Justin (10:20):
Yeah. So I think the the the advantages that we're
sharing are setups a lot more.Yeah. People find something that
work, and they say, okay. Yougotta try this out.
And, it's also easier to orderstuff, return it. We just my
wife just redesigned our thisvideo studio setup I'm in. And

Brian (10:39):
It's gorgeous, by the way.

Justin (10:41):
Thank you. She did she did a great job. We've got all
these classic radios behind mehere, both transistor radios and
tube radios. And, this one hereappeared in the, not this exact
one, but

Brian (10:55):
this was in a James Bond movie. Sweet.

Justin (10:58):
This radio. And, but the what she found is you have to
order a bunch of stuff and thenreturn half of it. So you you
order stuff, and then you returnhalf of it when you after you've
tried it out. And I think thatability to try things out is and
return it if it's not working isis the other key. Right?

(11:18):
You just some voices work betterwith certain microphones. Some
rooms respond different, youknow, differently to different
preamps. And, you know, you tryit all out and then

Brian (11:30):
Returning. Whatever doesn't work. That's a good
idea.

Justin (11:34):
I was I was always, like, terrible at this. It's one
reason I asked for help from mywife because I knew she'd just
be able to like she would justorder it all, plan it out and do
the research. And then, youknow, whatever didn't work, she
would just return. And so sheordered it all at one time. We
tried all sorts of things out,and whatever didn't work, she

(11:57):
just returned kind of all atonce on one day.
And that's a good way to do it.So But I mean, for podcast
audio, audio setups are so muchsimpler than video. That's the
other, I think, benefit ofpodcasting is that you can if
you if you have a USBmicrophone, you can get a, you
know, a dongle for your iPhoneand plug it right into your

(12:19):
iPhone and have excellent soundand just record right onto your
iPhone with a with a nicesounding microphone and publish
from there. It's it it's reallyeasy to get started. The key is
that, like, when we startedTransistor, I think there was
they figured there's about500,000 podcasts in the world.

(12:43):
And now there's something like4,500,000. But my my my advice
to new people starting out, as Isaid, the truth is is that most
of those podcasts aren't thatgood. Like, that's the that's
the hard part is you you need tohave decent sounding equipment.

(13:03):
You know, you need to make itreasonably like, make your sound
as good as you can. But afterthat, the really what
distinguishes one podcast fromanother and whether someone
listens to a podcast is if it'sgood.
And what's good means meaning,what I mean there is just it
appeals to a certain audience.You've created something that's

(13:26):
compelling enough that peoplewill click play on your trailer,
listen to 30 seconds, and thensay, you know what? I'm gonna
subscribe to this, or I'm gonnadownload a full episode. And
then if you can get them torecommend it to a friend or you
can get them to follow-up anddownload another episode. That's

(13:47):
that would that's what's reallydistinguishes one podcast from
another.
It's gotta be good. It's gottabe compelling. There's gotta be
something about it that peoplewanna listen to. So I'm glad I'm
glad the first steps are easy.Like, I got a microphone, plug
it into my I my iPhone, and thenit's like, okay.
What are you gonna do now? Nowthat you've got your setup, and

(14:09):
you're, you know, in the closetrecording with all the clothes
around you, so the sound's gonnabe fine. How are you going to
make this entertaining soentertaining that someone
recommends it to a friend?

Brian (14:20):
Oh my god. I have no idea.

Justin (14:26):
Well, there's some ways to figure out. I think the one
thing I've always I've tried todo is prompt listeners when
they're listening. And it couldbe as simple as something like I
used to do this all the time.I'd be in the middle of an
episode. I'd be like, hey,folks.
I just wanna take a break rightnow and say, if you are doing

(14:47):
the dishes right now andlistening to this podcast, can
you just reach out to me onTwitter or by email? Say, hey.
It's me, Al. I'm in Tennessee,and I'm listening to your
podcast while I do the dishes. Ijust wanna hear from all the
dishwashers out there.
And I get Interesting. All theseresponses from people who were,
you know, do listening to thepodcast while they, did the

(15:09):
dishes. And often, you know,that was an easy way to get in
contact with listeners, and thenI would follow-up with,
questions like, I'm curious, youknow, what makes you listen to
the podcast? What brings youback? What first attracted you
to the show?
What's going on in your lifethat makes you, you know, listen
to a particular episode orlisten to the first episode? I I

(15:34):
I like that question of what'sgoing on in your world that
brought you to the podcastoriginally or today or whenever
you listen because it gives allthis context of why people
listen. Yeah. You know, there'scertain shows I listen to on my
way to work because I want themto inspire me to start thinking

(15:55):
about business stuff. You know?
So the job to be done is inspireme on my way to work so that I
have new marketing ideas or newbusiness ideas or just energy
that I can bring into my day.And there's other shows I listen
to on my way home, and their jobis help me to wind down, help me

(16:16):
to think about something otherthan work, help me to just
divert my attention, have adiversion, have some
entertainment as I walk home.And, you know, by the time I'm
home, I'm I'm fully, you know,not thinking about work anymore.

Brian (16:35):
Yeah.

Justin (16:35):
So figuring out why people are hiring your podcast
instead of something else, Ithink, is a good thing to do.
And, yeah, it's just askingpeople when they reach out or if
you do happen to bump intosomebody that listens.

Brian (16:50):
That's I should do that. It's a great

Justin (16:53):
idea. I think I think more people should do it. Yeah.
It's it's the one way to it'salso a way to because
podcasting, you know, it is hardto hear from people. Any signal
you get is good signal, andpeople are listening for a
reason.
They're not just no one wakes upin the morning and says, well, I

(17:14):
hope I listen to a boring showtoday. You know, like, people
want, they're trying to getsomething out of it. And
sometimes the job is, like, alot of utility. Like, help me
understand more about unit testsin Python so that I can do my
job better. Well, that's a veryspecific job to be done, and it

(17:38):
makes sense.
You know? Why do you

Brian (17:39):
wanna do that? Okay. So I'm I'm gonna, talk for a bit so
that you have a chance to drinkyour coffee if you want. But,
some of the people listening I'mgonna actually throw this out as
a podcast episode. My podcast isnormally around Python and
software testing, andincorporating testing with
software.

(18:01):
So why would I have JustinJackson on? And a lot of people
in the Python community mightnot know who you are or might
think that you're a footballplayer.

Justin (18:10):
Yeah. Or a basketball player. There's

Brian (18:11):
basketball player that yeah.

Justin (18:13):
Yeah. Yeah. My the search engine optimization for
Justin Jackson is,

Brian (18:17):
Not not great.

Justin (18:18):
Quite competitive.

Brian (18:20):
But okay. So, just so I I've been following Justin for a
while. You, did the what wasthat podcast again where you
did, like, a whole bunch of,build build and launch or
something?

Justin (18:35):
Build and launch.

Brian (18:36):
Yeah. And which just seemed like craziness. You were
trying to do, like, what, like,a 100 or 50 or, you know, like,
or 1 a week? I I can't remember.

Justin (18:46):
Build and Launch was launched something new every
month.

Brian (18:48):
Okay. Of course.

Justin (18:49):
And then I started another podcast called Mega
Maker where I was trying to do a100 do build a 100 or make a 100
things in a year.

Brian (18:59):
Okay. Which was fun to listen to. Did you make it to a
100?

Justin (19:04):
I made it to a 100. Yeah. I think I in retrospect,
that was probably overkill. It'sprobably too many, but, it was a
fun challenge.

Brian (19:13):
So and then okay. So then, I'm listening to him for
the in the makerspace and the,the the the the startup, the
business, or the bootstrappingbusiness kind of space. Mhmm.
And, very inspirational. I loveplus, I grew up in the northwest
and and was a skater and asnowboarder and stuff, and you

(19:37):
kinda have that vibe as well.
Yeah. So I

Justin (19:40):
love snowboarding. Not I'm not great at skateboarding,
but I have one that I rip aroundon. But, yeah, snowboarding is
definitely

Brian (19:48):
A complete tangent. I grew up in Eastern Washington
and all the rich kids so I wasnot one of the rich kids. But so
often, I was just like, I can Ican locals hills and and doing
it, but there was a little placecalled north south that was a
little penny ski ball, in Idahothat I go to once in a while?
But I see. All the rich kids,I'll always went up to Banff.

Justin (20:10):
Oh, yeah.

Brian (20:11):
Have you ever snowboarded Banff? Is it any good?

Justin (20:14):
Yeah. Yeah. I've snowboard Banff. Banff is good.
I mean, I think the bestmountains are in British
Columbia, which is where I amnow.
Okay. Banff is a beautifulplace. I grew up in Alberta, but
I grew up in Northern Alberta.So we're prairies, and the the
the mountain that we would driveto is Marmot Basin and Jasper.

(20:35):
And so we'd get up on a Saturdaymorning at 4 AM and then drive 4
hours to Marmot Basin to to ridethat mountain.

Brian (20:44):
Okay.

Justin (20:44):
And then Banff was just a little too far, but I've
ridden a handful of times. It'sa gorgeous mountain. And when
it's good there, it's reallygood.

Brian (20:52):
It's Where are you normally riding now?

Justin (20:55):
So now I live in Vernon, BC, which is in the Okanagan
Valley about 4 hours east ofVancouver, And we have kind of a
series of mountains here. Mylocal mountain, Silver Star,
it's about 25 minutes from myhouse. Nice. And then, there's
Revelstoke, which is about anhour and a half from me, which

(21:17):
is the kind of the new I mean,some people call it the new
Whistler. It's it's a prettyamazing place.
And then just, after Revelstokeis Golden and Kicking Horse, And
then the other direction,there's Big White and some other
places. So we're kind of

Brian (21:35):
Snow around you.

Justin (21:36):
Yeah. We got they call it the powder highway. If you
ride the all the resorts, youcan, like, ride probably 5 or 6
resorts. And when the snow isgood, it's like, yeah, just an
amazing road trip.

Brian (21:49):
Yeah. I might have to, like, do some exercise and get
my knees up to speed, try to dothat at some point or at least
get one of them.

Justin (21:58):
Yeah. Revelstoke's great, and kicking horse is
great. If you get the chance togo, it's amazing.

Brian (22:04):
The, so the reason why one of the couple of reasons why
I wanted to come have you on,one was, just to finally talk to
some one of my heroes. Also, I'dlike to encourage more, there
are more Python podcasts comingon. When I started, there was
only a few. Now there's quite afew, which is great, and I'd

(22:25):
like to encourage more people todo that. And Mhmm.
I'm gonna start a I'm gonnastart another podcast whether
that's a good idea or not.

Justin (22:34):
Great idea.

Brian (22:37):
And, and so, there's a few special things that I so I
thought I'd have you on to helppromote, transistor and other
things you're doing, and ask youa few questions. So you're, I
don't know That's great. I don'tknow if I had all of the summary
of what you're up to now. Is itmostly transistor FM?

Justin (23:00):
Yeah. We're full time on transistor. We started it in
2018, just me and my partner,John. We actually met through
Chase Reeves from Fizzle. Heintroduced us.

Brian (23:12):
Okay.

Justin (23:12):
And, Yeah. We started working on it together in 2018.
We launched it August 1, 2018.And by the following August
2019, we were both full time onit. So we've been full time
since then, and we now have 3full time employees in addition
to us.
So we're a little team of 5people, and it's our full time

(23:35):
gig. This is what we're doingthese days.

Brian (23:37):
That's awesome. And by full time, what does that mean
to you personally? Like, are you40 hours a week? Or

Justin (23:45):
I mean, we probably don't work, we probably work,
yeah, about 3 30 to 40 hours aweek. And depending on the week,
some weeks it's more, some weeksit's less. We built the company
to give us a better life.

Brian (24:01):
Yeah.

Justin (24:02):
So, the the key for both John and I has been flexibility
and freedom. And so if the snowis good, I go snowboarding, and
I might take the whole morningoff or the whole day off. And
we've tried to build that intothe company. So we work hard. We

(24:25):
do good product work.
We really work hard to serve ourcustomers. We have live chat
that we try to answer as soon aswe can. But at the same time, we
wanted to give folks theflexibility to take time off, to
take care of themselves, to havesome margin in their lives. And

(24:45):
now that we have 5 people, it's,like, pretty good. We can kind
of you know, if one person'staking some time off, the other
person can, you know, you know,cover for them.

Brian (24:59):
You have a podcast that covers sort of your some of your
transition through this. Right?

Justin (25:05):
Yeah. We right when we started working together, we
signed our partnership docs, andwe just started recording a
podcast together called BuildYour SaaS. Okay. And it's just
about building and launching asoftware as a service company,
from when we had 0 revenue and 0customers, and we didn't know if

(25:27):
this whole thing was gonna work.And, and in so in many ways,
feeling like this might be ourlast attempt at something like
this.
Just I didn't know if I hadanother attempt in me.

Brian (25:45):
Yeah.

Justin (25:45):
So, And you were

Brian (25:47):
so but were both of you working at another at other
things?

Justin (25:51):
I was yeah. John was working full time at Cards
Against Humanity, and I was I'dalready gone independent. I had
a paid community called MegaMaker and a course called
Marketing for Developers Okay.That was paying the bills.

Brian (26:08):
But before you went independent, you were at some
point, like, doing the sidehustle thing. Yeah. I I, I I
created

Justin (26:18):
the marketing for developers course while I was
working for a startup inPortland and working full time
as a product manager there. AndI've been a product manager at
other SaaS companies as well.Okay.

Brian (26:30):
So, yeah, I I worked

Justin (26:33):
while I was working there, I built this course on
the side. I'd already been doingpodcasts and blogging and other
things before that, building upan audience. And, yeah, launched
that in 2015. And then, it didwell enough that I thought if I

(26:53):
went full time on it, I coulddouble it the next year. And so
I did that in 2016.
And, Yeah. That was kind of whenI cut the cord with paid
employment.

Brian (27:03):
That's nice. I guess so one of the I'm jumping ahead,
but one of my questions aroundthis, I'll just go ahead and ask
now, is

Justin (27:11):
Mhmm.

Brian (27:11):
As a side hustler myself, I got a full time job, and I've
it's like I'm collecting sideproject, though. Couple podcasts
or a couple books. Yep. Doing,what else? I'm starting a SaaS.
So, I'm not gonna, like, bug youabout SaaS questions. But

Justin (27:31):
Feel free. It's I'm I'm I'm happy to answer anything.

Brian (27:34):
Well, I guess one of the things is, is are you is SAS, s
a a s and s a s s s, pronounceddifferently or just spell it
differently?

Justin (27:47):
Saas is spelled it's an acronym, so it's s a a s. And,
in some ways, it's terrible aterrible thing to name your
podcast because, it's yeah. Mymy kids try to describe this to
their friends, and their friendshave no idea what they're
talking about. But SaaS isactually a lot of people are

(28:08):
searching for it now in podcastapps on on YouTube and other
things. So

Brian (28:13):
Software is a service.

Justin (28:15):
Software as a service.

Brian (28:16):
Yep. Right. So is it too late to jump on the SaaS
bandwagon?

Justin (28:23):
No. Because SaaS isn't a market. I mean, people say it's
there's a SaaS market, but youyou use SaaS as a delivery model
to deliver a product to aspecific market, a specific
category. And the key with anywhether you're making a podcast
or making a software product,the key is that you've

(28:46):
identified something that peopleare already searching for.
They're already searching for asolution.
And if you are if you can targeteither a desire or a pain or
something that has alreadymotivated people to search out a
solution, and you can do thatagain in a compelling way. So

(29:09):
it's the same as recording apodcast. You're doing it in a
way that compels them to try youout, to give you a shot, to seek
you out, then it's not too latebecause there's lots of
opportunities. And the the otherthing about most categories is
that they're cyclical. Right?
So we were talking about,earlier, we were talking about

(29:33):
Calendly versus SavvyCal. SoCalendly was an existing product
that reached its maturity phase.And in any category when there's
a big incumbent that's kind ofreached their maturity phase,
that's a good time to launchsomething new if there's an a
kind of a window of opportunity.And that's what Derek Reimer,

(29:57):
the founder of SavvyCal,observed. He's like, wow.
A lot of people using Calendly.So there's a market. People are
using it and paying for it. Andbut there's some gaps. There's
some product opportunities thatpeople want Calendly to do that
it's not doing.
And there's also just whensomething once something's kind

(30:18):
of a bit older, people justnaturally start to look for, you
know, is there a fresh newsolution or whatever?

Brian (30:24):
And one of the interesting things that you've
brought up on, I don't know, oneof the podcasts is Yeah. That
you don't have to have, featureparity before you launch.

Justin (30:36):
No. As as long as there's enough there that you
can I mean, there's a there's acouple of ways to kind of stair
step your way into it? For us,you know, when we were in
inviting beta users, the ideawas, hey, if you come and try

(30:57):
Transistor in our beta phase, wewill give you a lower price. And
so for people who are usingother tools, they were like,
okay. Well, I can switch toTransistor, kind of grow with
the product, and in exchange,I'll pay a lower price and get
to give them feedback on theproduct that, you know, maybe

(31:17):
the feature I really want willget built earlier.
Yeah. So there's ways of ofdoing it. And there's also just
people get attracted to productsfor different reasons, and a lot
of it will depend on you as thefounder. What kind of unique
attributes, strengths,weaknesses, what advantages

(31:39):
would you have, personally overcompetitors? And for John and I,
it was that we were willing toshare our story in a really
transparent way.
And so we had a lot of customersthat came to us because they
were attracted by the story.What was compelling? It was
like, wow. This I wanna be apart of this journey and support

(32:00):
these guys as they're buildingthis product. And so they were
willing to switch to us evenbefore, you know, we were at
feature parity to some of theother products out there.
We were, you know, slowlybuilding it up, but they were
willing to give us a shotbecause they were invested in
the story.

Brian (32:16):
Yeah.

Justin (32:17):
And, you know, that's something that a bigger company,
can't can't do. Right? The otherthing I think we've done from
the beginning is, like, customersupport. And I often joke, like,
people will say, when sometimeson live chat, I'll get someone

(32:38):
who says, why would I useTransistor when Anchor is free?
And I said, well, I'm one of thecofounders of Transistor, and
I'm pretty sure that the CEO ofSpotify is not answering anchor
support tickets right now.
We really care about customers,and we all do support. Even when

(33:00):
I'm snowboarding, I'm on thechairlift answering customer
support tickets. It's like oneof the things I'm really
passionate about is helpingpeople out as they're trying to
figure out how to launch apodcast. And, you know, I'll go
even if it's not something aboutthe product, if they want me to
listen to an episode and givethem some feedback, if they want

(33:21):
me to look at their website and,tell them how how I how to
improve it, you know, to getmore people finding their
podcast on Google, I'm willingto go the extra mile and help
those folks. And that's a realcompetitive advantage that
That's huge.
Especially big incumbents won'tdo. And it's an easy one for

(33:42):
it's not easy, but it's a it'san accessible one for most indie
startups is that, yeah, thatthat the competition is often
slow. Their support and customerservice is not good, and you we
can, leverage our ability to besmall, and, you know, we can
pivot if we need to. We canreact to customer feedback

(34:05):
faster, and we can just caremore. We and, that I think,
that's served us really well.

Brian (34:13):
I but I put that to the test. I was listening to one of
the your episodes. You'retalking with the person. I can't
remember her name. The personyou hired to do help with
customer support.

Justin (34:26):
Helen.

Brian (34:26):
Yeah. And it was a great episode. And then I went back
and listened to the previous oneor the that you said it was the
second time she was on theepisode podcast, so I went back
and listened to the other one.But, I did so a lot of websites
have these, like, chat thingsthat you can, like, log into.
With you guys, it's one of youthat's answering.
Yeah. That's amazing. And I andso I I was like, okay. So what

(34:49):
are the things one of the thingsthat I have that so Fireside has
had this is what I'm on rightnow. And Yeah.
I whatever. I probably shouldn'tname names, but the it's not a
secret. That's who I'm hostingwith. One of the things I love
is the get the guest pages.

Justin (35:06):
Yeah.

Brian (35:07):
And I was like, if I and, you know, one of the reasons why
I'm considering tran there's afew reasons why I'm considering
transistor, and I'm probablygonna pull the trigger and
switch. There's a few reasons.One of them is, the multiple
podcasts because I want, I wannado a new podcast, but I don't
want testing code to go away. Iwant people to be able to still

(35:29):
listen to it. Yeah.
And I don't and it seems kind ofa lot to pay my normal monthly
fee to just maintain it sittingthere doing nothing. The other
thing was, like, these guestpages are great, and you guys
have guest pages now. Yep. And Iwas like, well, how is there an
API or something? And I I let soI hopped on.

(35:51):
I don't know if you want me toair this or not, but hopped on
the chat and said, how would Itransition from fireside to to
transistor with all these guestpages and stuff? And and I got
somebody, I think Helenresponded and said, well, we

(36:11):
could if you could get it in aCSV file, we could probably help
you out. Yeah. And I'm like,that's amazing. This is this is
pretty cool.
I mean, I even if even if Idon't even if it doesn't work
out, that there's a willingnessto try to help, this is great.
The other one that really, isthat you the other question I

(36:35):
had was, on the guest pages, isthere a link for Mastodon? And,
apparently, there's, like, afree form link that you can use
or something that I could putput in people's Mastodon
accounts.

Justin (36:48):
Yeah. I think we got we've gotta update that because
we do have let me just lookhere. On our social links, like,
the social links we provide foryour website, so, like, find us
on Twitter, Instagram. We haveMastodon there.

Brian (37:04):
Okay.

Justin (37:04):
But, yeah, I think you're right. I think we need to
add it to we need oh, no. Wehave Mastodon there. It's
already on there on the proprofile pages. Yeah.

Brian (37:14):
And then there's, like, some some at least a free form
link or something that I can addsomebody's GitHub profile. Yep.
Okay. Because that's that'ssomething I've tried to do,
before that, I've asked foryears for Fireside to say, hey.
Can you get a GitHub link?
And, no, just crickets. And thenalso with, Mastodon, they said

(37:37):
maybe, but it's not there yet.And I think that that needed to
be something that that was,like, turned on, like, right
away, and it can't have beenthat hard. Mhmm. And, so, I
guess, kudos for you guysjumping on it.
But also the that customerservice bit, I don't I do not
want to do

Justin (38:00):
that. I mean, you don't have to. That here's the thing.
There there are multiple pathsto to success. And, you know, I
and I think I was definitely myexperience working for other
SaaS applications had been Ijust saw that it was a real
differentiator if you hadawesome customer service.

(38:23):
And so we've taken it seriouslyfrom the beginning. John and I
have done it in the early days.I mean, early days before we'd
even gone full time, I wasspending way too much time
answering support tickets andgoing the extra mile for people.
I I would do so much extra workfor those early customers just
because I knew it would be adifferentiator. And, so for us,

(38:46):
it's been one of the ways we'vefound success, but there's other
ways.
I've I have friends who do whohave successful software
companies who don't do livechat, But there has to be
something. You have to be ableto differentiate. And I think
the nice thing about customerservice is even if you don't
have a feature built, you canyou know, like, let's say

(39:09):
somebody said, hey, I need atthe beginning, it'd be like we
had no way of manually updatinga bunch of episodes. And they'd
be like, I want to migrate, butI need all these things changed.
And I would be like, oh, don'tworry, I'll take care of it.
And I would just manually gothrough each episode and update
that thing for them because Icould. It was within you know,

(39:31):
that's one way I could servethem. And if you get a customer,
you know, our LTV, lifetimevalue of a customer is on
average is probably about$1,000. And so you put in a
little effort at the beginningand you keep a customer for a
long time, that's worthsomething. Plus they tell their
friends, that's worth something.

(39:52):
Plus they talk about they leavea good review for you on one of
the review sites, it's worthsomething. So there's other ways
to win, but you have to findsome sort of advantage. And to
me, customer support is the is agood one because most folks
aren't willing to do the work.And if you are, you'll stand out

(40:13):
immediately.

Brian (40:14):
Speaking of doing the work, though. Okay. So one of
the, got a few more podcastspecific questions, and then I
wanna Sure. Ask about life worklife if you got time.

Justin (40:25):
Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.

Brian (40:27):
So, you you had in one of the earlier episodes I was
listening to, you werementioning, like, dynamic ad
insertion is not beingimportant, but now you guys have
it. So is is it a good thing, oris it just something people ask
for?

Justin (40:44):
I mean, the important can mean different things at
different times. So one thing Ioften try to think about is,
will this feature actually leadto more people signing up and

(41:04):
staying on? And at the time,when I initially said it, it
just wasn't and remember,markets are fluid.

Brian (41:12):
Yeah.

Justin (41:13):
Pieces are already always moving around. And at the
time, the the reasons peoplewere signing up was just most
podcasts were people who werehobbyists or doing it on the
side or doing it for their smallbusiness or what have you. And

(41:35):
you know, 99% of podcastersdon't need dynamic ad insertion.
There's also at the time, it wasjust a bigger feature than John
and I could bite off as a 2person team. But once Helen and
then Jason joined, Jason wasable to do a lot of that work
for us, and it was morepossible.

(41:56):
And then we said, okay, well,let's look at it, and maybe this
is something we can add,especially once you've kind of
gotten all the the easy wins,the low hanging fruit. It's
like, well, now to grow, it's alot harder. And so now we're
we're building features, andwe're getting kind of iterative
gains from you know, in terms ofpeople signing up and staying

(42:18):
with us.

Brian (42:20):
But it so let's say if I on the new podcast I'm starting,
if I were to decide to go withthe dynamic ad insertion instead
of the traditional ads thereforever sort of a thing

Justin (42:30):
Mhmm.

Brian (42:30):
I kinda have to build that into my pitch to my
advertisers. Right?

Justin (42:36):
Yeah. Most people who are actually doing ads are now
selling people on a certain timeframe. So they'll say, for
example, a common way of doingit is saying you can buy ads on
new episodes, and those are moreexpensive. Right? Because when
an episode drops, there's aspike of downloads.

(42:56):
And then there's a separate,campaign for the back catalog.
So people will schedule an acertain, campaign for new
episodes, and they get that forthe first 30 days or 60 days or
whatever. And then after that 60days, it goes into the back
catalog, and then their, youknow, folks are buying ads on

(43:19):
the back catalog. So it givesyou more inventory. Cool.

Brian (43:24):
So I can do that with your with transistor. I can
have, like, the new episodesversus back catalog? So Yeah.
Different ads?

Justin (43:32):
Yeah. Yeah. You can schedule you can have different
campaigns running, and you canschedule those campaigns. And
then we have some basic rules tosay, for example, one way of
doing it is saying, okay. I'mgonna apply this campaign to all
of these episodes in the backcatalog, and then I'm gonna have
another campaign that's like adefault campaign that
automatically gets applied toall new episodes for a certain

(43:55):
time frame.

Brian (43:56):
Yeah.

Justin (43:56):
Okay. Then you just adjust the campaign dates.

Brian (44:00):
So I think I think it's kind of a cool idea even so my
thoughts were even if you're nothaving external advertisers,
you've got your own thing thatyou're plugging. Yeah. You might
be able to do things like, likearound Christmas time or
something. You could I've orwhatever. I'm I'm doing a promo,
a sale price for this thismonth.

Justin (44:20):
Yeah. Yeah. I think that that's the reason I originally
wanted to build it. You know,sometimes we build features
because like, what pushes itover the edge in terms of
something we'll build is like,this is something I'd like. And
I always wanted a way of beingable to dynamically add,
announcements to every episode.

Brian (44:43):
Yeah.

Justin (44:43):
And so we often will use it for announcements. Like, I
was in New York. I was travelingto New York for a conference,
and I just replaced all of theads to say, hey. I'm gonna be in
New York, during these dates. Ifyou're gonna be there, click on
this form and let me know, andmaybe we can do a meetup.
And so it was just super easy tosay, here's you know, I'm gonna

(45:06):
do a pre roll, and then I'mgonna remind them again in the
mid roll and then do anotherreminder at the end. And just to
be able to do that automaticallywith all my episodes was
something I was like, ah, I'vewanted this forever. Yeah. I
think that's the most powerfulway to use it. I think there's
also a big opportunity inpodcasters helping each other

(45:28):
grow their shows.
And so you could do an ad. Like,right now, I'm running an ad on
build your SaaS for some of ourcustomers and just saying, hey.
If you like our show, here'sanother show I think you'll
really like.

Brian (45:41):
Oh, that's cool.

Justin (45:41):
And then promoting other people's shows. I think there's
just some really cool things youcan do there that other people,
you know, that that go beyond,like, selling ads.

Brian (45:52):
Now, last kind of topic of the question before I let you
go. Mhmm. Work life balance,especially with side hustle sort
of stuff.

Justin (46:01):
Mhmm.

Brian (46:02):
I'm assuming it that your family was on board with all of
what you're up to. Were they?

Justin (46:10):
We we we might have to get other members of my family
in here. I think this isactually the hardest part that
doesn't get talked about enough.And I've been doing the series
on build your SaaS onbootstrapping with kids. And
I've had different guests onthat have all have a different

(46:32):
point of view on this topic. Ithink there's the there's
there's some things I wouldrecommend.
So one, you have to be kind ofbrutally honest about your life
and how stable everything is. Soas an example, in my early

(46:56):
twenties, I was working a fulltime job. And on the side, it
had always been my dream since Iwas a teenager to have a
snowboard skateboard shop. Andso on the side with a friend, I
opened a snowboard shop.

Brian (47:11):
Wow.

Justin (47:12):
It did not go well. And, it was really hard on my family
Once once all the dust hadsettled, you know, we had to
eventually close it. There's abunch of debt. And at the time,
my spouse's response was, hey.Can you just not do anything
else on the side for a whilejust so we could have some

(47:35):
stability, you know, build upsome savings again, all those
things.
And I think that was wise, andwe did that. I I closed the shop
in 2005, and I didn't reallystart anything new for quite a
few years after that. So I thinkbeing honest about stage of

(47:57):
life, you know, it was easier.It's easier for me to start
things now that my kids areolder. I have 4 kids that are 13
to 20 than when they werebabies.
Like, the baby phase, it's likeno sleep and you know? But it
all depends. I know couples whomake it work and you know,

(48:19):
they've for them, there's enoughmargin and, you know, it can
work, but you have to bebrutally honest about where
you're at. And I think the otherthing is the biggest risk when
you're bootstrapping somethingnew is that you'll burn out.

(48:45):
Right?
That's that's 1. Or you'll runout of money. Like, those are
the 2 things. Right? So, ifyou're doing it on the side and
you have a full time job, youeffectively have infinite
runway, but the risk there isthat you could burn out.
It's just a it's just hard formost people doing consistently

(49:10):
applying energy at work and thengoing home and taking care of
all your home stuff, trying tobe a good partner, a good
parent, a good friend, a goodfamily member. And then once all
that stuff is done, dedicatinghours to a side project, that's

(49:31):
that's a lot. Right? And so, Ithink you can do that for a
while, but the the biggest riskis that you'll you'll burn out.
And so I think

Brian (49:45):
I guess there's

Justin (49:46):
there's some things you need to consider there for sure.

Brian (49:49):
One of the things I wanna address while we're talking
about burnout is that especiallywith site I mean, with work
burnout, that's tough becauseyou got you're there or you're
there all the time. Yeah. Idon't and I don't I'm not I
don't think I'm skilled enoughto tell somebody how to deal
with burnout at work. Butburnout with side projects, I've
gone through it, but I thinkit's fine to just take a pause.

(50:13):
Like, Test and Code just had,like, a, I don't know, 4 month
break over the a 3 month breakor something like that just
because I needed a little bitmore room in my life.

Justin (50:22):
Yeah. I think that's the point is that and this is why
you need to be have goodcommunication with your partner,
good communication with yourkids. Good, I think I wish in
retrospect I'd been going totherapy regularly as well
because all of these things giveyou a perspective about how are

(50:46):
we doing, how are the gauges ofour lives, And to be open and
and receptive enough to to youknow, if if your partner is
saying, listen, You can't keepdoing this to yourself. Like,
you're getting 4 hours of sleep.You're you're grumpy all the
time because, you know, you'reyou're constantly thinking about

(51:08):
this side thing you're trying tolaunch.
And if they're saying, hey, weneed to pause or we need to
figure out something new or,like, that's a signal you should
listen to. And for yourself, Ithink having especially a
professional, like a therapistthat you see regularly who knows
what you're up to. And I've hadtherapists who said, listen.

(51:30):
Like, Justin, you need a break.You you can't keep doing this.
Right? You gotta you gotta slowthis down. And, Yeah. And also
even like, I remember one time Iwent to I've told the story
before. I went to the doctor,and, you know, I was just, like,

(51:50):
going through a hard time andfeeling depressed.
And my physician said, well,tell me what is kinda going on
in your life. And I'm like, wow.I'm trying to do all this. I got
all this responsibility tryingto do this. And she said, how,
like, how much alcohol are youconsuming?
And I said, well, not that much.Like, after I, like, put the

(52:13):
kids to bed and I'm justtotally, like, burnt out, I I do
a couple shots of whiskey everynight. And she said, okay. Well

Brian (52:22):
Maybe not do that. That

Justin (52:24):
that's that's quite a bit of booze. And I had never
had someone confront me aboutthat. Yeah. And so she said,
okay. Well, my firstprescription is I want you to
stop drinking for a while.
And I said, okay. Well, okay.And then, the second thing she
asked me is how much exercise Iwas getting. And at the time, I
was, like, riding my bike downto my office, which is downtown,

(52:47):
and riding my bike back. And shesaid, I want you to double that.
So if you that means riding upand down the hill twice, do
that. And her the the the reasonfor the prescription was I was I
was burning out. I wasn't beinghealthy. I was drinking too much
alcohol. I wasn't getting enoughexercise, and I needed to create

(53:11):
space to take care of myself.
So I think having professionalsand family members and friends
and accountability partners andother things in my life who
could keep me in check, youknow, realign me when I got off
track was important. And oftenit means, yeah, you gotta take a

Brian (53:35):
break. Yeah.

Justin (53:36):
Often it means you need to reevaluate. Is what I'm doing
is doing more of what I'm doingactually going to get me more of
what I want. And, you know,there's numerous times in my
journey where I had peoplechallenge me on that. I had a
business, like a coursebusiness. So after marketing for
developers, I tried to launch afew more things.

(53:59):
And I went to this retreat with,a bunch of other entrepreneurs,
and they just we had a hot seattime where everyone was on the
hot seat for a while and peoplecould just really challenge you
on how things were going. Andthey said, it sounds like the
business you're trying to run,like doing more of like spinning

(54:19):
more plates or applying moreeffort or working harder is not
going to get you more of whatyou want, which is more money,
more margin, more freedom, moreflexibility, less burnout,
etcetera. And it was hard tohear that, but their
encouragement helped me move onfrom a bad idea, or an idea that

(54:42):
wasn't giving me more of what Iwanted. And that created space
for me to eventually get toTransistor, which is an idea
that did give me more of what Iwanted. I think all of that's
important.
I think it's, there's there's areal risk for us to do damage to
ourselves and our relationshipsif we're not careful.

Brian (55:03):
Yeah. And even, so in the software world, there's a lot of
people getting there with justopen source projects, and
they're not making any money offof it.

Justin (55:11):
So I

Brian (55:12):
think paying attention to yourself is good. I think that's
a good place to wrap it up.Sounds good. I'm in a I guess
this was an hour long. Justthanks for being an inspiration
for me, I guess.

Justin (55:25):
I'm happy to chat. These are all topics I'm passionate
about. So, yeah, this is one ofthe reasons I got into the
podcast game is because I likedoing this.

Brian (55:36):
Nice. Well, thank you.

Justin (55:38):
Thanks for having me.
Advertise With Us

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know
The Joe Rogan Experience

The Joe Rogan Experience

The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.

24/7 News: The Latest

24/7 News: The Latest

The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.

Music, radio and podcasts, all free. Listen online or download the iHeart App.

Connect

© 2025 iHeartMedia, Inc.