August 13, 2025 • 61 mins
Marty sits down with Ali Webb and Carlos Flores from Forager to discuss how they're using Bitcoin-backed funding to enable independent filmmakers to create original content without traditional studio interference or investor pressure.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Carlos and Allie, welcome to the show.
(00:02):
Thanks for having us.
Thank you, Marty.
I'm happy to be speaking with you guys because it's a budding theme on this show.
A very small theme, but a budding one.
And one that excites me because I think it's a signal that Bitcoin is breaking out of the bubbles,
the community bubbles that have existed in my 12 years following.
(00:24):
It seems that what you guys are doing at Forger really validates Bitcoin being used as a tool by anybody, not just cypherpunks or people that care about sound money, but what you guys are doing at Forger in the world of entertainment.
And Carlos, we were just talking before we hit record that you heard my discussion with Johnny Vance from Total Twins in Angel Studio and reached out.
(00:52):
And as I was also telling you, I have a friend, a very close friend, and we've been talking about this idea quite a bit, the intersection of Bitcoin and entertainment in an attempt to get better art into the world and let smaller artists, content creators, whatever you want to define them as, get their work into the world and actually give them a chance to compete with the mega studios of the world.
(01:20):
So before we jump into the broader discussion of this intersection, why don't we start with a couple introductions, just how you guys got to where you are, what you're doing at Forager and what got you to thinking about Bitcoin specifically.
will work um carl so i can give my intro and i'll let you take it um so i went to film school
(01:48):
i majored in screenwriting and then i found my way to new york i landed in advertising so it was not
where i expected to be after film school you know right out of film school i'm thinking okay i'm
gonna go i'm gonna work for a studio i'm gonna be on set i'm gonna you know live the dream and
And I found that being on set and everything that I had imagined about filmmaking, once I did get my feet wet into some live action production for commercials, was not super aligned with the way that I prefer to live my life and to structure my life.
(02:26):
I'm very routine oriented and I really enjoyed how, how the tech side of post-production was
evolving and could make so many more things possible than, you know, just what it is captured
on set. Now, so much respect for what happens on set. I just was not of that same, you know,
(02:48):
mindset and stamina to be working those kinds of hours. And so I found my way into the post-production
side of advertising and worked as an EP at a couple of different post houses. And along the
way, I met Carlos. And we decided to start Forager together after working together for some time. And
(03:09):
I was getting ready to move into the freelance world, which he had been occupying for his entire
career up until that point before moving from New York to Portland. So that was what
gave the idea to start Forager as a remote collective of post-production artists.
(03:30):
We saw at the time that there was a real need to give a platform for individuals in the post space
who were not represented by legacy posthouses for any number of reasons. They enjoyed being
freelance, they liked the autonomy, having their own brand, and they just needed that
production support which i could bring um to the team and which we've built alongside the producers
(03:54):
at forager along the way um and different already different tech was available to us at that time
at like slack and and frame io that made it possible to collaborate in real time from
anywhere um so we launched forager with this unique perspective on bringing together
the best talent, no matter where they were located.
(04:16):
So we're pioneers in that sense because it was still different to say that we didn't have
a brick and mortar place to go to for clients to go to to supervise.
And then that was January 2019.
A year later, it became the norm during COVID for everyone to work remotely.
(04:36):
So we're a little bit ahead of the game there.
And we've taken everything we've learned from building this network of great creatives.
And Carlos will give his intro on how we started building Bitcoin into the picture as well along the way.
(04:57):
Yeah.
Yeah, essentially, exactly what Ali said.
I think Bitcoins surprisingly entered our radar very early on, almost by chance, because we started the company in 2019, the pandemic in 2020.
And we were down, of course, as everyone else for a little bit.
(05:21):
And at that moment, I was starting to just research, you know, what stocks to buy, like every person back then.
and I stumbled upon Bitcoin at the moment just from like an interview that I saw on YouTube.
And yeah, I bought it personally, not knowing much, just kind of like bought it personally as an opportunity.
(05:44):
Ali and I are good friends, so I talked Ali into buying some personally as well.
And we were so small and informal.
We were like, you know, why not buy it and put it on Forager's balance sheet?
And this was before even a sailor had appeared on X.
It was like, I think June, 2020, when we first bought.
(06:07):
And we were small. We just bought, I think, one to begin with.
And yeah, then we saw the whole strategy thing happening.
We were like, oh, this is going to be a thing.
So we started buying more.
Still a humble treasury.
But yeah, of course, we rode the whole thing up to the 60K.
60K, then we felt a little silly when it went all the way down in the bear market.
(06:33):
But that was kind of like our introduction to Bitcoin.
We were buying it almost naively at first, not knowing much.
But then you see this thing going up.
We learned what it was.
We got orange filled in the process.
And we thankfully held it for this whole time.
It was only earlier this year where we were dealing with some liquidity crunches that we were like, you know, we have built this treasury.
(07:00):
We want to maintain it.
And we thought, what if we were to leverage that treasury in order to raise some funds so we can survive and get through this rocky period?
And so we did that.
but we also announced to the world, you know, like we are proud Bitcoin holders and we,
(07:20):
we have a mandate now of holding this Bitcoin treasury and, uh, and growing it. Uh, and,
and that's on the four year side and eventually comes the film studio part, which is like our
next chapter. Yeah. No, it's funny. This is a bit of worlds colliding for me because my wife,
(07:41):
she actually, she did post-production for McCann Erickson for, I think, 12 years.
And she was on the Microsoft account.
And Ali, as you were describing those long nights in post-prod,
I mean, there was weekends where she'd be working until 2 a.m. every night.
And I think her team specifically did localization for global campaigns.
(08:03):
Yes.
So her coming home after those long nights, just describing,
I was like, what do you guys do?
It's like we just sit in a room and rewatch the commercial about a thousand times and try to nitpick and make sure everything's compliant.
I learned a lot about post-production basically from doing localization initially because, yeah, you have to really understand all the files that you need to update the graphics, the voiceover.
(08:31):
I had some really late calls trying to get voiceover from the team in China, those sorts of things.
So yeah, it's very technical.
You do watch the same thing over and over again,
but you get the detail-oriented part of it
and why it's so important.
And there's like funny intricacies
like France or South Korea, I forget.
(08:52):
You can't have electronics in the same still as water
or something like that.
Right, you do learn a lot about
what plays in different markets.
Yeah, what is and isn't allowed.
Yeah, so not to say that post-production
doesn't have late nights.
It certainly does.
but it can be a little
little different still
and how much you can
(09:13):
control the different factors I feel like
yeah but like tying this into
what your initiative is now
like she ran the she was on the Microsoft account
for I think five or six years
and
I got somewhat I got like an arm's
length perspective of just like
the world of like big corporate sort of
ad spend and like how much
(09:33):
money they were putting into it and what was actually
being produced and they put together great commercials um but it was always insane to me
like how much they were spending on all this and uh when you think of trying to compete with that
it becomes becomes hard and in this post-covid world that you guys described it seems like it's
(09:54):
becoming easier but you just need to combine a bunch of tools and creative thinkers to to really
be the upstart competitor with these behemoths, whether it's in the corporate world doing
advertisements or, um, in the film world with the major studios. Um, and so I think that's
a good jumping off point for the white paper, uh, for white paper, uh, the studio and how you guys
(10:21):
are thinking of basically arming indie creators with the financial, um, tools to, to make sure
that they can get their art out into the world.
Yeah.
So, like you said,
from all that we've learned
competing with these big companies
(10:42):
and holding our own
because we could see that
we needed to be nimble.
And that really is the name of the game,
especially with how quickly
things like AI are moving.
Every week, it seems like
there's a new development
and something that is
making the expectation
that you should be moving faster and doing things cheaper.
(11:03):
That is affecting every part of filmmaking.
And as we've seen through putting Bitcoin on our balance sheet for a germ,
it is the one thing that's actually preserving our hard work in the long run.
And when we realized we could have a model to help filmmakers with this,
(11:26):
Because we still need great films that are telling human stories that are made by people with people and not just leaning into AI to make things faster and cheaper because there just isn't any, there isn't the same amount of funding available anymore.
let's incorporate the tech and the tool that is bitcoin to preserve those efforts and like carla
(11:50):
said and you know we've talked about more separating the investment from the art to a
degree you know bringing in a whole another set of investors who are interested in the returns that
can be offered from our model and and not just waiting for a film to make money of course the
the hope for everyone is that the film will sell and be seen and and generate returns um but you
(12:17):
know let's lean into the the bitcoin backing to bring in more money and then we can use the
returns from a sale of a film to reinvest in the company and back more films and continue this cycle
and continue to invest in our stories and our people and not just um participate in a race to
(12:38):
the bottom which is what we were feeling we were becoming a part of yeah so i do want to touch on
the ai stuff we can do that later but i think just digging into the problem that indie filmmakers have
right now let's sort of paint that landscape for for the audience what like when we're the biggest
(13:01):
pain points that indie filmmakers run into i imagine capital is one of them but um like what
how hard is it for them to compete i guess is the question um yeah i mean i guess as a first
step for context uh i think film is perhaps one of the riskiest business you can get into as an
(13:24):
investor in the sense that uh you can have a great recipe for success with like a great script and
great talent and a great director and the movie can still flop like you can still get no traction
so of course there's a lot of pressure on the on the investing side uh and i think you touched
upon a little bit on on the episode with johnny but yes like uh especially in in slower times uh
(13:51):
i think hollywood and even the streaming networks they're betting on safer projects uh there's a lot
more bet on sequels and spin-offs and just any project that will guarantee some sort of
success or return for the investor.
So of course that leaves artists with original ideas and riskier projects that have no track record of financial success at the bottom of the list And we think that betting on great talent and original ideas is a winning formula but
(14:36):
you have to give it time and you have to experiment and try.
and I think there are not many companies betting on that kind of raw story or film at the moment.
We really like, for example, A24, what they did, especially in the early days.
(15:01):
They were thinking very long term, betting small amounts of money,
but on really risky projects, just trying to build the IP for the future.
And I think they were very successful at it and they built a brand around it and even a cult following.
But of course, as you grow and you become more established, that kind of risk taking can only last for so long.
(15:28):
And of course, they had to take investor money in the last, I forget when it was that they took like a big round of private investment.
And of course, that changes the recipe, right?
Like they now you have people depending on you to make your numbers and and that affects ultimately the artist.
Right. Like there's less funds going around for new.
(15:53):
Risky, original IP.
So that's kind of like the biggest problem that we set out to to solve with this.
Ali, I don't know if I missed something.
No, bottom line, I do think the biggest issue is access to capital.
and the reason why is you know multifaceted but if you're talking smaller than a24
(16:19):
it's finding those investors and i know that a lot of our independent artists are relying on
angel investors friends family kickstarter you know it takes a lot to bring together a production
and there's often no guarantee that the investors are going to to make their money back and this is
(16:42):
how people have to start you know you got to start somewhere i think very few get into the
industry right away with name recognition and a lot of backing and investors who know for sure
they're making their money back so um along with the other challenges in this industry
um i see this contributing to a diminishing amount of available funding for original ideas
(17:10):
like i said it it does feel like a race to the bottom and um we just we've like said we've only
seen bitcoin preserve our you know the value that we brought to our clients and our companies
So let's bring that, you know, make it available to independent artists. But also, it's not just about, you know, convincing people to invest in Bitcoin, because most people still obviously do not feel comfortable.
(17:39):
And so let's make this appear as accessible as possible for investors so they can look at it as an alternative to their stocks or, you know, the 401k or whatever might be giving them between 5% and 10%, you know, and they can also contribute to the arts.
(18:01):
Because I do think that there is a large selling point from the conversations I've had of saying, hey, we can preserve original storytelling and potentially beat the hurdle of AI that is coming for all of the films and the content that we're consuming.
And they want to be a part of that.
(18:22):
And it's great that then they can make some money and potentially beat inflation along the way.
and so let's uh let's dive into the mechanics of how you guys are envisioning
bitcoin as a funding mechanism actually work so is white paper just building a big treasury
(18:44):
and using that to fund films or is there intent because when you guys dm me and you sort of
explain the top level of the idea in text i couldn't think of help but think of a company
that we've partnered with at 1031, Battery Finance,
but they're focused on the commercial real estate market
(19:04):
and their credit fund.
So they raise dollars into a credit fund,
underwrite projects,
give them, lend them dollars
with a portion of those dollars, 10 to 20%,
being put in Bitcoin and held within the loan structure
throughout the duration of the loan,
typically 8, 10, 15 years, whatever it may be,
(19:25):
is your model similar in that sense where it's a combination of dollars and bitcoin and
you're sort of underwriting individual products and making sure that they're bolstered
with a mini bitcoin treasury uh yeah essentially we uh we took a lot of inspiration uh from
sailor and also the the original bond that we created ourselves for forager but basically we
(19:54):
let's say that a film needs $50,000 for production, like a short film,
we raise a bigger amount than that.
And a portion of that amount raised goes directly into Bitcoin,
which we use to repay the investor.
(20:15):
And the rest goes directly into production.
But by doing that Bitcoin split investment,
we are able to repay the original loan plus the interest, which is 5% to 10%.
So essentially, yes, we're growing a treasury that allows us to grow more and more.
(20:38):
But then every film financed has a Bitcoin portion attached to it,
and it's running in the back, and its function is to repay the original investor.
and we're not paying the investor in Bitcoin.
We're just paying them in dollars.
And we have a few variations,
(20:59):
but it's between 5% and 10%.
Now, this is not something to make someone rich,
you know, from these bonds,
but it is essentially comparable
to like a high yield savings
or like a treasury bond.
but on the end of it
(21:21):
you not only get your 5-10%
annualized return, you also get to
finance a film
and on the
artist side, we are able
to tell them
we are in
charge of repaying the investor with our
Bitcoin strategy and you guys
can just focus on the art
and you will not hear any notes from
(21:43):
the investors, they have no
say over the creative
uh so that's uh we like that separation because we think that's how like uh great films you know
can be made that's a very important separation right so you guys are sort of acting as the
the how would i describe this um the wall of safety between the artist and the capital
(22:04):
and handling that it makes sense so like i guess from the investor's perspective it's like all right
I'm comfortable doing this because
I have
this, funnily enough,
counterintuitive to most people, but
it has proven to be true historically.
De-risking by
putting a portion of my principle
in the Bitcoin that will be
(22:26):
at least
preserve its bursting power, if not
potentially increase.
And then
they've got a call option on the movie being a massive
success, I imagine,
in getting royalties.
because i imagine they get equity in the films themselves as well so it's funny right now we have
(22:46):
three variations of the product and it's kind of like different for different risk appetites the
the five percent yield one has bitcoin uh securing the loan not the full obligation but the the
capital uh and you get your five percent you know return but if something were to happen
(23:07):
into the company or anything, you know, that Bitcoin is pledged to you.
And that Bitcoin is from our treasury.
We have on the higher risk side, we have the 10% annualized.
And that one has no early redemption.
All these are set to five-year loans so that, you know, we can let Bitcoin appreciate and
we're not liable for all the fluctuations.
(23:30):
So we have those products right now.
And so far, nobody has asked us about equity in the film, surprisingly.
And I think it's also because of our early investors.
They didn't even care so much about the films.
They were just kind of like, oh, I have mutual funds giving me this.
I could just park it here and I get a better yield.
(23:54):
Oh, that's fascinating.
So it is kind of opening doors to capital that would never touch films.
uh but of course i think we have a whole gamma of potential uh people that could you know like
that may also want some yield as you're saying like some kicker from the film yeah is there uh
is this model catching on is anybody in the film industry or just creative industry in general see
(24:20):
what you guys are doing and being like oh this is interesting are they deriding you are they
cheering you on um i would say that the the response has been really positive um no one has
come for us and said what you're doing is crazy and you should stop doing this uh maybe they think
it i wouldn't be surprised but um it's been very positive it might be catching on we don't know
(24:45):
but like you said earlier we're really only aware of angel studios incorporating bitcoin
on the balance sheet in an entertainment company.
We aren't aware of anyone else doing something similar.
I think that it will eventually become part of the strategy for most companies.
(25:06):
And that's a broader conversation, I suppose, on Bitcoin treasury companies.
But as far as we know, we're one of the earlier movers,
and maybe people are waiting to see how it, you know,
what kind of results we get from this.
I mean, that's a good question.
Cause when it comes to like Saylor and his strategy,
(25:30):
just Bitcoiners who've gotten to Bitcoin early,
generally typically takes a bit of time
for their conviction to be validated.
And so like, at what level would you consider
the strategy a success for you guys?
well i think once we have repaid our first loan like we're very new we just launched um
(25:52):
the white paper anyhow what you know forager's been around for six years but um white paper we
just launched a couple months ago and maybe less than that actually so our first two short films
just filmed this last weekend so we're going to head into post-production we'll have something
to share hopefully by the end of the year we'll start submitting to festivals i think in the next
(26:15):
year, we'll really start to see how things are received, how the Bitcoin element is part of the
marketing or not part of the marketing. We're also not pushing that. I'm not trying to say
everyone has to be talking about how it's backed by Bitcoin. I think it's an interesting talking
point personally, obviously, but our artists, we're not asking them to go out and spread the
(26:41):
worried about the Bitcoin backing unless they, you know, want to talk about how it's made it
possible to fund their film. I think in the next year or two, we'll start to see how, you know,
it's changing the way that the industry is funding films. And for us, it'll be a first test of the
(27:01):
model. Yeah. And I also, I think we, right now we're dealing with shorter form projects, but I
I think the goal is to get features soon.
And we think that in theory, as Bitcoin grows exponentially, so will our treasury and we will have even more funds to play with then.
(27:26):
And I think another portion of it is that we do want to make everything public and put kind of like the treasury life, but also how every film, however, film is attached to a Bitcoin back bond online.
And we want to show also the performance of each bond so people can see, oh, this film is being repaid live, you know, like with Bitcoin in the back.
(27:54):
So it's not just, I think it's a new way to measure a film's success.
It's not just box office.
It's not just fees.
Art can be funded with Bitcoin's performance.
Yeah, building in the open.
That's massive.
(28:15):
And so, I mean, on to the very interesting stuff.
What do you think the film industry is lacking right now
in terms of types of movies that are being made,
themes that are avoided,
stories that aren't being told,
that you guys are excited to back?
(28:39):
That a really good question I say this I add this just for some context because my wife and I and our brother and sister
in law we were having a conversation a couple weeks ago
over dinner
all four of us have
young children between us four
soon to be five under the age
(29:01):
of ten and we were
sort of complaining to
each other that there's no
children's movies
these days that actually have
like real people.
It's all like animated stuff.
And we were reminiscing about
the 90s movies
that we loved, like Dennis the Menace,
Home Alone, Honey I Shrunk
(29:22):
the Kids,
a bunch of really good
children's movies.
Yeah, it was a Stephen King movie
about
the boys.
I can't believe that's escaping
my name, my mind.
But regardless,
it seems like we were just
we have
(29:44):
nonchalantly noticed
the sort of fiatification
of kids' movies
where it's like all these animated movies, which
some of them are really good, but
you're like, God,
I wish the kids had
live-action films like we did
growing up that
they just seemed to be missing out on.
(30:05):
And that's something that we were
just a couple weeks ago saying i wish somebody would fund movies like that yeah i i mean that
is a great point um i also have a couple younger kids and i love animated films i was originally
drawn to filmmaking because i loved the look of stop motion films and then also realized i could
never be a stop motion animator also a very hard thing to do all day long um but so i love animation
(30:31):
I love what you can do there. But you're right, having live action and just seeing other real kids on screen.
I know we're supposed to limit their screen time. I agree with that, but sometimes it's necessary.
And like my one-year-old daughter loves to hold pictures of her family.
And I think just seeing the real people in a photo is like still kind of novel, especially with the screens and, you know, all that they have access to these days.
(30:58):
yeah we uh we had a we had a friday night movie night the other week and the kids watch meet the
parents and it was just funny watching them react to it uh they got emotional in some of the parts
and uh it's like yeah shit it doesn't it feel and that came out i think in like 2000 or 2001
and so you don't have any great movies like that anymore and then carlos you mentioned it we talked
(31:24):
about it with Johnny it just seems like Hollywood these days you're just stuck in this sort of
superhero universe sequel machine it's like okay I don't need another Marvel movie let's let's get
something interesting here yeah I mean I was gonna mention I I got into filmmaking because of all the
auteurs in the 90s like uh Paul Thomas Anderson Tarantino uh even Sofia Coppola um and I feel like
(31:53):
there was a cool trend back then of betting on artists with great vision and you just bet a lot
of money on them and hopefully one of them will be a great film um i feel like there was a risk
taking form that doesn't exist as much anymore of course there's still the big festival circuit
(32:14):
and all that but um not a lot of studios betting on auteurs and uh just uh trusting you know the
the artist vision in that way.
And I think it's,
again,
to what we're talking about,
it's less risk-taking overall.
Yeah.
(32:35):
Like there's no modern day mall rats or airheads.
That's exactly.
It's Dogma.
I love those movies growing up.
And it seems like the deprecation of that risk-taking
happened pretty quickly within the last 15, 20 years,
which may seem like a long time to some people,
but really isn't that long period of time.
(32:58):
No.
And on a similar note,
because I think what's kind of underpinning your examples
is comedy.
And with the cancellation,
late night with Stephen Colbert,
I was listening to a podcast about how comedy,
like adult comedy films,
(33:19):
also has seen,
it has not been something that studios have been investing in for a long time.
We used to have, I don't know, like Anchorman and those sorts of movies that have just become
classics and they're so good, but they don't invest in comedy the way they used to. And it
also seems to be tracking this trend of comedians having their individual platforms on social media.
(33:47):
yeah that's actually a really good point like how much of the landscape has shifted because
of the emergence of social media and these different mediums because everything's gone to
like one two minute clips uh and you see it like i'm not that i'm on tiktok but people share them
(34:08):
on twitter and you see it on instagram like these individual creator accounts that have like a
certain shtick and they make like a minute video it's pretty it's not incredible production but it's
enough to grab your attention and a lot of the eyeballs are going there and i think that's another
another sort of theme that's been discussed between my wife and our brother and sister-in-law
(34:32):
is like the attention span um like bringing back like longer form content and like putting your
found I'm actually engaging in a piece of art for longer than 120 seconds and
extending that to 120 minutes is something that I'd like to return to and we actually
we went and saw the f1 movie a couple of weeks ago and it was uh it was actually fun it was a
(34:57):
fun movie I really liked it and it felt good to be in the first time I was in the theater I think
since covid or actually now last summer we took the kids to see a movie but I've only since covid
but I think I've been to the theater like three or four times maybe.
And,
uh,
going to see movies in the theater is something that I think is becoming a
(35:19):
lost sort of practice in society.
And that's very sad because it is a fun experience.
Yeah.
I saw this fascinated,
fascinating interview with Nick Glaser,
the comedian.
And,
uh,
yeah,
she was basically saying that she lives for the,
YouTube clips or the TikTok clips.
(35:40):
And that's how people really consume your media.
And that's also they assess if you're successful at something.
Like if you are walking red carpets or if you have clips here and there.
But when it comes to the numbers, nobody, even though all these comedians have these HBO specials,
very few people actually watch all that.
(36:01):
like the media really lives in all the clips and all the secondary content that people extract from all those specials.
Which is a little sad because we, of course, want to make long films and proper features.
But yeah, then you're competing with the tension span of the new generation.
(36:24):
Yeah, I mean, this ties back to Bitcoin too because it's really incentive driven.
all those platforms are trying to sell ads
and they just need
volume of one to two minute clips
getting millions of views
to sell ads into
the monetary sort of incentive
disruption that's how it manifests
exactly
I do think when we skim
(36:48):
over TV a little bit because we're
like we're marrying this
you know the short commercial side of things which is like
what Forager has done and now with White Paper
We want to see a reemergence of original ideas and film.
I actually consume more TV than film.
And there is still a lot of great content in TV and watching some really funny shows as well.
(37:11):
So I feel like maybe that's where Hollywood's been hedging its bets a little bit in the streaming and the TV.
Because it does still, I guess, apply to our shorter attention spans.
We don't have to go to the theater and make a whole outing out of it and, you know, spend two and a half, three hours.
And it's also been an interesting thing is that the movies have gotten so long.
(37:35):
It's like to get you to commit to going to a theater and then spending four plus hours.
It's like it's gone completely in the other direction.
And I don't know if that was if that was intentional, but it definitely keeps me from going to the theater.
Not that I would be able to as much anyways,
(37:55):
like you were saying too,
it's pretty hard when you have young kids to find the time to go and make
those arrangements,
but then thinking,
okay,
if we're going to go,
it's going to be a three plus hour commitment.
It's a lot.
Cause everyone's pretty busy.
Yeah.
Like the,
yeah.
Like a 90 minute movie is perfect.
And I'm just a research,
Carlos,
(38:16):
you were mentioning Tarantino.
I think one of my favorite films of all time is reservoir dogs.
And okay.
Just looked it up now.
We're in 40 minutes.
probably longer back then but yeah if you can get like a 90 minute quick hit and that's like
that's where the artistry really comes in is the people that have the ability to
like tell the story in a 90 minute span and really get you emotional and have you thinking after
(38:42):
yeah and i know watch something like game of thrones or house of the dragon like wait i
basically did watch a movie so i'm telling myself i can't go make time for a movie i mean it's
definitely easier to sit in front of my tv and stream something than going to the theater but
some of these shows are are really long and they captivate you and you go oh my gosh i can't believe
i've been sitting here for you know over an hour and i think there's a balance to be struck too
(39:06):
there and again finding that like you said consolidation of a story into 90 minutes which
is like when i was growing up that that was a full film for me too yeah i'm curious what the uh the
short films that you guys are funding now via white paper,
what,
what type of themes and stories are they leaning into?
(39:28):
If you're free to disclose.
Yeah.
So what we're looking at right now,
we do have some comedy.
So it seems to be again,
depending on the discussion and I think we're all looking for a bit of
escape from the day to day.
And that's what comedy can provide.
(39:49):
So we have two short films that are comedic in nature.
One's the satire as well on the fashion industry.
And so I'm really excited to see that one come to life.
And then we've got more of a coming of age story that will be in development next year.
Also deeply rooted in the political polarization of our country.
(40:16):
so that's interesting because I do think those themes are avoided for I'm sure obvious reasons
in Hollywood this time and then another project that will be finished up early next year then is
more like a documentary series and there's a couple episodes for proof of concept there so
(40:40):
it runs the gamut really trying to find a balance in our slate or our portfolio
Yeah. And especially I feel like we're always trying to look for projects that don't seem like that are as commercially viable or that wouldn't seem as attractive to a traditional film investor.
(41:01):
and like one of the projects that we just shot this weekend is that it's basically just physical
comedy and it's two people physically fighting over a piece of lens that they found uh that
fell on someone's shoulder uh so it's no dialogue pure fighting uh yes and and it's just in my
(41:26):
opinion it's just original like uh it doesn't have to fit a specific genre so yeah we're kind of
playing yeah with the whole gamma of like content oh yeah and they would be remiss of me not to
bring it up because we mentioned it earlier but what are your thoughts on this explosion of
ai generated content and how do you view it as people working in the industry is it a tool
(41:55):
that you see yourself leveraging
or do you think there's going to be a market
for like bolts to nuts, beginning to end,
produced, shot, acted, produced by humans
that people will want to consume instead of the AI?
(42:16):
Because hand up, we've been experimenting
with the AI generated content
just to tell stories that we don't think
or being told in little two-minute clips
in an attempt to draw attention to a web browser extension
that we launched.
And it's been fun experimenting with that.
But there is a part of me that's like,
(42:37):
ah, this is cheap, relatively easy.
It's getting us good exposure.
But there is the romantic in me
that thinks that we need to preserve
like actual human filmmaking, acting, and storytelling.
(42:58):
For sure. Yeah.
I mean I think it really You have thoughts No I mean I think it a very sensitive subject of course in our field because as much opportunity as there is of course a lot of people on the artistry side also feel the threat
(43:19):
Because these programs, we're getting better and better every day.
And I personally think that you still need a good amount of taste if you're going to be creating these creative videos or images, just because there's still a lot of AI that looks a little bit plasticky, a little bit if you don't know how to prompt it.
(43:46):
But also if you don't give it good references, it ends up looking still artificial.
all of that's changing
and still
I think a lot of people are treating it
as more
individual
frames or individual clips
not so much like storytelling
(44:06):
like I've seen very few
actual sequences
that tell a story that moves you
or have a beginning and end
so that's still I think
in the starting
phase
but I see a lot of opportunity
especially because
we have
this artist that we collaborate
(44:27):
with a lot and he's very much
into AI and
he only sees opportunity
he's very tech savvy as well
and he was like you know in the past
if I had this idea of like
spiders, robot spiders
coming down from the ceiling
and I wanted to propose that to
a client or to like
another creative
(44:48):
it would be a whole discussion right like they like you would pitch it and they would be like
okay we'll do we need a whole vfx team in india uh to so we can outsource it because it's a lot of
like work a lot of man hours and it's discussions with the vfx company so it's a huge long process
(45:09):
just to come up with spiders coming from the from the ceiling and he's like with ai i can do it
overnight. I can just work on my prompts. I can be in the zone creatively and I can accomplish my
vision just myself with a computer. So in a way, that's really empowering, I think, for a creative
(45:31):
as well. The question is, does the AI overtake that everyone, like even the person creating,
making those decisions? I think that's the debate.
oh sorry Ali
I was gonna say
it's been fun
(45:53):
experimenting it with
but even what we've produced
it's obviously AI
we haven't crossed the uncanny valley
either
and I'm under the belief that all the AGI
ASI talk coming out of Silicon Valley
from the Sam Altman's of the world
is more hype
than actual oomph
I don't think AI is going to be able to replace human creativity.
(46:16):
So the idea that you're just going to launch these models
and they're going to come up with these unique stories
that humans actually connect with, I'm a bit skeptical of,
even with the crazy advancements that we've seen over the last few years.
It could be wrong, but I just have a hunch that you can't create consciousness
in the digital world, in the machine world,
(46:41):
if you will, no matter how vehemently
Sam Altman and others are telling you
that they're doing just that.
Yeah, and you're right.
It is not a replacement for humans' ideas
and good creatives.
You can augment it.
It can be a great springboard.
(47:01):
We've used it to concept things
before they need to be sent to someone to really bring that vision to life.
Because it requires so many different tools.
Even generating images like Carlos has done for certain projects.
Just again, templates, see what we could do.
Someone wants this thing in the shot to move faster or to behave differently.
(47:26):
What would it take?
What could it look like?
It's great for experimentation and stress testing.
but it's not a magic bullet.
And we were pitching on a job last week that has a really tight turnaround
and needs a lot of EFX help.
And the thinking is that, oh, because it's such a tight turnaround,
(47:49):
let's just plug it into AI and make it happen, right?
It's not like that.
You have to take into consideration continuity.
And Carlos had brought up at that point during the pitch,
Every time you generate the image again, something's going to be a little off and you can get really good at prompting.
You can only take it so far before someone else has to come in, another VFX artist to make everything perfect and consistent and take certain things out and add others in so that you're not ending up with a new set of variables every time.
(48:21):
So it's a great tool.
It has definitely sped up some concepting for us and for clients.
I know that they are leaning into it and advertising, you know, just to generate customer research and stress as to whether a certain demographic will respond in a certain way to their idea.
(48:43):
And they can collate all of that research to, you know, ask the AI if it's going to work or not.
I don't know how well that's going to serve them in the long run, but it's interesting because like you said, building consciousness, that seems like too tall of a task.
I think they're trying.
I think they might get pretty close.
(49:04):
But overall, it is not going to completely replace what we're doing.
And we love novel things.
And computers have to be trained on something and then know what to deliver consistently.
And so I don't think anyone's going to react to AI content in the long run and engage in it the same way if we didn't have anyone coming up with the ideas that would make the content different or more, you know,
(49:39):
more relatable for certain situations or what's going on enough in society so there's always going
to be a human driver but it is um causing the industry to contract because like carl said things
can happen faster they can happen with fewer people and so the entire industry and by industry
i mean you know mostly speaking from uh you know post-production in the advertising space but then
(50:03):
you know further into narrative as well it we need to to reorganize ourselves and understand
that it's going to require even more nimbleness and more modular with our relationships and our
vendors than even you know before and that was that's been foragers entire you know foundation
(50:25):
was being nimble and um we still find ourselves going okay let's keep up with this new tech and
what does this mean?
What do we really need to invest in that?
Yeah.
I feel like you guys are ahead of the curve just in the business model,
being nimble,
small,
um,
and,
uh,
(50:45):
boutique,
maybe that might be the right word or the wrong word,
but it's the word that comes to my mind.
And hopefully what I would imagine is there definitely disruption going on,
people worried,
but hopefully that,
that wall of worry turns into people recognize like,
Oh,
there's a lot of opportunity here.
and you see like the world of a thousand flowers bloom
where instead of having the major studios dominate everything,
(51:07):
people recognize that the cost has been cut
and they can compete
and a world of 10,000 foragers emerges
and you have this sort of competition for storytelling,
maybe a combination of human AI production.
Maybe there'll be some,
there's like AI only,
(51:28):
others that are human only.
and it could create like a really cool competitive environment that ultimately should lead to more
creativity and better better film out there yeah definitely and i was having a conversation with
another person in our field a few months ago and and he equated an entirely human production
in the future being like shooting on film now like i really want to shoot on film it's going
(51:53):
to look so authentic instead of you know just using a digital camera and then it's like okay
okay, well, let's think about that.
We have to, you know,
this is how you have to treat film and process it.
And this is the lead time it takes.
And if we just, you know,
if we're short on time and money,
we'll just use the digital camera.
And I think that it is a very good analogy to use for,
(52:13):
you know, as we move forward with AI,
and it gets better and better.
It's like, okay, what is it?
You have time and money
and you want to make something that's entirely human,
no AI, et cetera.
Great.
But do we, you know,
need to make some sacrifices
or cut a few corners and bring in the AI.
And that's just something that's going to be part of everyone's thinking
(52:35):
when they're doing their concept data strategy.
Yeah, and as you guys are proving a white paper,
Bitcoin can be the tool to enable those teams that want to be the film of the next era,
recording on film of the next era, which is doing everything with humans only.
I think that's enabled with smarter capital funding for these films.
(53:03):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like we said in the beginning, it preserves the effort that we're putting in today.
And our industry has seen a bit of a race to the bottom because your money doesn't go as far.
And everyone's companies, operations have been contracting for a number of reasons.
so your nest egg
(53:24):
for making that film
might only get you half a film by the time you get
around to making it because that's the other thing is it takes
a long time to raise capital and set up
a production and
you know you just can't keep up
you can't really keep up and so you've
got to find ways to
do it cheaper and faster
and unfortunately that doesn't
support
(53:45):
like original good
creative filmmaking to the long run
Yeah.
It's exciting.
Like I said in the beginning,
this is,
I love having you two on because I think it's a validation that Bitcoin is
breaking out of the relatively small bubble it's existed in its first 16
(54:05):
years since the protocol launched.
And I'm a true believer in sort of people seeing a company like Forager and
white paper doing what you guys are doing getting inspired and as it pertains to like bitcoin's
adoption over the long run i think it's projects like the ones that you guys are working on that
(54:31):
are like sneaky edge cases they're gonna have profound effects on others because for the
longest time like i said it's been cypherpunks and austrian economics nerds and it really leaned
into bitcoin but i think we just need to normalize bitcoin as a tool for for anybody not just those
(54:51):
who are either economically or politically uh can end up on a in extreme side of of the spectrum of
economics or politics uh bitcoin is simply a tool that anybody can use and i think what you guys are
doing at forager and white paper is an incredible example of that thank you thank you so much um
(55:13):
Yeah, no, and you're right.
It's a tool for everyone.
It's still very hard to get Bitcoin across to our circle
because it's very early on.
Just explaining our concept to fellow filmmakers.
It sounds too good to be true sometimes also.
You get to make your art.
(55:34):
No need to worry about the investment until the investors will give you your returns.
You don't need to worry about the film's performance.
so you can only accomplish that with a tool like Bitcoin
so hopefully it catches on
and we can make some great stuff
where can anybody listening to this find out more
(55:57):
about what you two are up to
yeah so
you can follow us
on X
and that's going to be at white paper
and for our purposes it's spelled
whtptr underscore studio.
(56:17):
Also, Instagram, great for more of our behind the scenes
and actual teasers, the better visual medium for us there.
It's also at whitepaper whtptr.studio.
Either of those places are good ways to follow what we're up to.
(56:39):
Awesome.
We'll make sure we link to all that in the show notes.
Carlos, Allie, thank you for coming on.
I think what you guys are doing is incredibly cool, number one,
incredibly important, number two, really leading the way
and showing people that this stuff is possible
and it could have profound positive effects
on preserving certain art forms, in this case, film,
(57:03):
which is something that I'm passionate about.
I like movies and I would like to see better movies out there.
So the fact that you guys are using Bitcoin in an attempt to fund the directors and artists who are not getting attention from the big studios is really exciting.
Thank you so much.
Thank you so much, Marty.
(57:23):
Appreciate it.
All right.
That's all we got today.
Freaks, peace and love.
Okay.
Carlos and Allie, welcome to the show.
(00:02):
Thanks for having us.
Thank you, Marty.
I'm happy to be speaking with you guys because it's a budding theme on this show.
A very small theme, but a budding one.
And one that excites me because I think it's a signal that Bitcoin is breaking out of the bubbles,
the community bubbles that have existed in my 12 years following.
(00:24):
It seems that what you guys are doing at Forger really validates Bitcoin being used as a tool by anybody, not just cypherpunks or people that care about sound money, but what you guys are doing at Forger in the world of entertainment.
And Carlos, we were just talking before we hit record that you heard my discussion with Johnny Vance from Total Twins in Angel Studio and reached out.
(00:52):
And as I was also telling you, I have a friend, a very close friend, and we've been talking about this idea quite a bit, the intersection of Bitcoin and entertainment in an attempt to get better art into the world and let smaller artists, content creators, whatever you want to define them as, get their work into the world and actually give them a chance to compete with the mega studios of the world.
(01:20):
So before we jump into the broader discussion of this intersection, why don't we start with a couple introductions, just how you guys got to where you are, what you're doing at Forager and what got you to thinking about Bitcoin specifically.
will work um carl so i can give my intro and i'll let you take it um so i went to film school
(01:48):
i majored in screenwriting and then i found my way to new york i landed in advertising so it was not
where i expected to be after film school you know right out of film school i'm thinking okay i'm
gonna go i'm gonna work for a studio i'm gonna be on set i'm gonna you know live the dream and
And I found that being on set and everything that I had imagined about filmmaking, once I did get my feet wet into some live action production for commercials, was not super aligned with the way that I prefer to live my life and to structure my life.
(02:26):
I'm very routine oriented and I really enjoyed how, how the tech side of post-production was
evolving and could make so many more things possible than, you know, just what it is captured
on set. Now, so much respect for what happens on set. I just was not of that same, you know,
(02:48):
mindset and stamina to be working those kinds of hours. And so I found my way into the post-production
side of advertising and worked as an EP at a couple of different post houses. And along the
way, I met Carlos. And we decided to start Forager together after working together for some time. And
(03:09):
I was getting ready to move into the freelance world, which he had been occupying for his entire
career up until that point before moving from New York to Portland. So that was what
gave the idea to start Forager as a remote collective of post-production artists.
(03:30):
We saw at the time that there was a real need to give a platform for individuals in the post space
who were not represented by legacy posthouses for any number of reasons. They enjoyed being
freelance, they liked the autonomy, having their own brand, and they just needed that
production support which i could bring um to the team and which we've built alongside the producers
(03:54):
at forager along the way um and different already different tech was available to us at that time
at like slack and and frame io that made it possible to collaborate in real time from
anywhere um so we launched forager with this unique perspective on bringing together
the best talent, no matter where they were located.
(04:16):
So we're pioneers in that sense because it was still different to say that we didn't have
a brick and mortar place to go to for clients to go to to supervise.
And then that was January 2019.
A year later, it became the norm during COVID for everyone to work remotely.
(04:36):
So we're a little bit ahead of the game there.
And we've taken everything we've learned from building this network of great creatives.
And Carlos will give his intro on how we started building Bitcoin into the picture as well along the way.
(04:57):
Yeah.
Yeah, essentially, exactly what Ali said.
I think Bitcoins surprisingly entered our radar very early on, almost by chance, because we started the company in 2019, the pandemic in 2020.
And we were down, of course, as everyone else for a little bit.
(05:21):
And at that moment, I was starting to just research, you know, what stocks to buy, like every person back then.
and I stumbled upon Bitcoin at the moment just from like an interview that I saw on YouTube.
And yeah, I bought it personally, not knowing much, just kind of like bought it personally as an opportunity.
(05:44):
Ali and I are good friends, so I talked Ali into buying some personally as well.
And we were so small and informal.
We were like, you know, why not buy it and put it on Forager's balance sheet?
And this was before even a sailor had appeared on X.
It was like, I think June, 2020, when we first bought.
(06:07):
And we were small. We just bought, I think, one to begin with.
And yeah, then we saw the whole strategy thing happening.
We were like, oh, this is going to be a thing.
So we started buying more.
Still a humble treasury.
But yeah, of course, we rode the whole thing up to the 60K.
60K, then we felt a little silly when it went all the way down in the bear market.
(06:33):
But that was kind of like our introduction to Bitcoin.
We were buying it almost naively at first, not knowing much.
But then you see this thing going up.
We learned what it was.
We got orange filled in the process.
And we thankfully held it for this whole time.
It was only earlier this year where we were dealing with some liquidity crunches that we were like, you know, we have built this treasury.
(07:00):
We want to maintain it.
And we thought, what if we were to leverage that treasury in order to raise some funds so we can survive and get through this rocky period?
And so we did that.
but we also announced to the world, you know, like we are proud Bitcoin holders and we,
(07:20):
we have a mandate now of holding this Bitcoin treasury and, uh, and growing it. Uh, and,
and that's on the four year side and eventually comes the film studio part, which is like our
next chapter. Yeah. No, it's funny. This is a bit of worlds colliding for me because my wife,
(07:41):
she actually, she did post-production for McCann Erickson for, I think, 12 years.
And she was on the Microsoft account.
And Ali, as you were describing those long nights in post-prod,
I mean, there was weekends where she'd be working until 2 a.m. every night.
And I think her team specifically did localization for global campaigns.
(08:03):
Yes.
So her coming home after those long nights, just describing,
I was like, what do you guys do?
It's like we just sit in a room and rewatch the commercial about a thousand times and try to nitpick and make sure everything's compliant.
I learned a lot about post-production basically from doing localization initially because, yeah, you have to really understand all the files that you need to update the graphics, the voiceover.
(08:31):
I had some really late calls trying to get voiceover from the team in China, those sorts of things.
So yeah, it's very technical.
You do watch the same thing over and over again,
but you get the detail-oriented part of it
and why it's so important.
And there's like funny intricacies
like France or South Korea, I forget.
(08:52):
You can't have electronics in the same still as water
or something like that.
Right, you do learn a lot about
what plays in different markets.
Yeah, what is and isn't allowed.
Yeah, so not to say that post-production
doesn't have late nights.
It certainly does.
but it can be a little
little different still
and how much you can
(09:13):
control the different factors I feel like
yeah but like tying this into
what your initiative is now
like she ran the she was on the Microsoft account
for I think five or six years
and
I got somewhat I got like an arm's
length perspective of just like
the world of like big corporate sort of
ad spend and like how much
(09:33):
money they were putting into it and what was actually
being produced and they put together great commercials um but it was always insane to me
like how much they were spending on all this and uh when you think of trying to compete with that
it becomes becomes hard and in this post-covid world that you guys described it seems like it's
(09:54):
becoming easier but you just need to combine a bunch of tools and creative thinkers to to really
be the upstart competitor with these behemoths, whether it's in the corporate world doing
advertisements or, um, in the film world with the major studios. Um, and so I think that's
a good jumping off point for the white paper, uh, for white paper, uh, the studio and how you guys
(10:21):
are thinking of basically arming indie creators with the financial, um, tools to, to make sure
that they can get their art out into the world.
Yeah.
So, like you said,
from all that we've learned
competing with these big companies
(10:42):
and holding our own
because we could see that
we needed to be nimble.
And that really is the name of the game,
especially with how quickly
things like AI are moving.
Every week, it seems like
there's a new development
and something that is
making the expectation
that you should be moving faster and doing things cheaper.
(11:03):
That is affecting every part of filmmaking.
And as we've seen through putting Bitcoin on our balance sheet for a germ,
it is the one thing that's actually preserving our hard work in the long run.
And when we realized we could have a model to help filmmakers with this,
(11:26):
Because we still need great films that are telling human stories that are made by people with people and not just leaning into AI to make things faster and cheaper because there just isn't any, there isn't the same amount of funding available anymore.
let's incorporate the tech and the tool that is bitcoin to preserve those efforts and like carla
(11:50):
said and you know we've talked about more separating the investment from the art to a
degree you know bringing in a whole another set of investors who are interested in the returns that
can be offered from our model and and not just waiting for a film to make money of course the
the hope for everyone is that the film will sell and be seen and and generate returns um but you
(12:17):
know let's lean into the the bitcoin backing to bring in more money and then we can use the
returns from a sale of a film to reinvest in the company and back more films and continue this cycle
and continue to invest in our stories and our people and not just um participate in a race to
(12:38):
the bottom which is what we were feeling we were becoming a part of yeah so i do want to touch on
the ai stuff we can do that later but i think just digging into the problem that indie filmmakers have
right now let's sort of paint that landscape for for the audience what like when we're the biggest
(13:01):
pain points that indie filmmakers run into i imagine capital is one of them but um like what
how hard is it for them to compete i guess is the question um yeah i mean i guess as a first
step for context uh i think film is perhaps one of the riskiest business you can get into as an
(13:24):
investor in the sense that uh you can have a great recipe for success with like a great script and
great talent and a great director and the movie can still flop like you can still get no traction
so of course there's a lot of pressure on the on the investing side uh and i think you touched
upon a little bit on on the episode with johnny but yes like uh especially in in slower times uh
(13:51):
i think hollywood and even the streaming networks they're betting on safer projects uh there's a lot
more bet on sequels and spin-offs and just any project that will guarantee some sort of
success or return for the investor.
So of course that leaves artists with original ideas and riskier projects that have no track record of financial success at the bottom of the list And we think that betting on great talent and original ideas is a winning formula but
(14:36):
you have to give it time and you have to experiment and try.
and I think there are not many companies betting on that kind of raw story or film at the moment.
We really like, for example, A24, what they did, especially in the early days.
(15:01):
They were thinking very long term, betting small amounts of money,
but on really risky projects, just trying to build the IP for the future.
And I think they were very successful at it and they built a brand around it and even a cult following.
But of course, as you grow and you become more established, that kind of risk taking can only last for so long.
(15:28):
And of course, they had to take investor money in the last, I forget when it was that they took like a big round of private investment.
And of course, that changes the recipe, right?
Like they now you have people depending on you to make your numbers and and that affects ultimately the artist.
Right. Like there's less funds going around for new.
(15:53):
Risky, original IP.
So that's kind of like the biggest problem that we set out to to solve with this.
Ali, I don't know if I missed something.
No, bottom line, I do think the biggest issue is access to capital.
and the reason why is you know multifaceted but if you're talking smaller than a24
(16:19):
it's finding those investors and i know that a lot of our independent artists are relying on
angel investors friends family kickstarter you know it takes a lot to bring together a production
and there's often no guarantee that the investors are going to to make their money back and this is
(16:42):
how people have to start you know you got to start somewhere i think very few get into the
industry right away with name recognition and a lot of backing and investors who know for sure
they're making their money back so um along with the other challenges in this industry
um i see this contributing to a diminishing amount of available funding for original ideas
(17:10):
like i said it it does feel like a race to the bottom and um we just we've like said we've only
seen bitcoin preserve our you know the value that we brought to our clients and our companies
So let's bring that, you know, make it available to independent artists. But also, it's not just about, you know, convincing people to invest in Bitcoin, because most people still obviously do not feel comfortable.
(17:39):
And so let's make this appear as accessible as possible for investors so they can look at it as an alternative to their stocks or, you know, the 401k or whatever might be giving them between 5% and 10%, you know, and they can also contribute to the arts.
(18:01):
Because I do think that there is a large selling point from the conversations I've had of saying, hey, we can preserve original storytelling and potentially beat the hurdle of AI that is coming for all of the films and the content that we're consuming.
And they want to be a part of that.
(18:22):
And it's great that then they can make some money and potentially beat inflation along the way.
and so let's uh let's dive into the mechanics of how you guys are envisioning
bitcoin as a funding mechanism actually work so is white paper just building a big treasury
(18:44):
and using that to fund films or is there intent because when you guys dm me and you sort of
explain the top level of the idea in text i couldn't think of help but think of a company
that we've partnered with at 1031, Battery Finance,
but they're focused on the commercial real estate market
(19:04):
and their credit fund.
So they raise dollars into a credit fund,
underwrite projects,
give them, lend them dollars
with a portion of those dollars, 10 to 20%,
being put in Bitcoin and held within the loan structure
throughout the duration of the loan,
typically 8, 10, 15 years, whatever it may be,
(19:25):
is your model similar in that sense where it's a combination of dollars and bitcoin and
you're sort of underwriting individual products and making sure that they're bolstered
with a mini bitcoin treasury uh yeah essentially we uh we took a lot of inspiration uh from
sailor and also the the original bond that we created ourselves for forager but basically we
(19:54):
let's say that a film needs $50,000 for production, like a short film,
we raise a bigger amount than that.
And a portion of that amount raised goes directly into Bitcoin,
which we use to repay the investor.
(20:15):
And the rest goes directly into production.
But by doing that Bitcoin split investment,
we are able to repay the original loan plus the interest, which is 5% to 10%.
So essentially, yes, we're growing a treasury that allows us to grow more and more.
(20:38):
But then every film financed has a Bitcoin portion attached to it,
and it's running in the back, and its function is to repay the original investor.
and we're not paying the investor in Bitcoin.
We're just paying them in dollars.
And we have a few variations,
(20:59):
but it's between 5% and 10%.
Now, this is not something to make someone rich,
you know, from these bonds,
but it is essentially comparable
to like a high yield savings
or like a treasury bond.
but on the end of it
(21:21):
you not only get your 5-10%
annualized return, you also get to
finance a film
and on the
artist side, we are able
to tell them
we are in
charge of repaying the investor with our
Bitcoin strategy and you guys
can just focus on the art
and you will not hear any notes from
(21:43):
the investors, they have no
say over the creative
uh so that's uh we like that separation because we think that's how like uh great films you know
can be made that's a very important separation right so you guys are sort of acting as the
the how would i describe this um the wall of safety between the artist and the capital
(22:04):
and handling that it makes sense so like i guess from the investor's perspective it's like all right
I'm comfortable doing this because
I have
this, funnily enough,
counterintuitive to most people, but
it has proven to be true historically.
De-risking by
putting a portion of my principle
in the Bitcoin that will be
(22:26):
at least
preserve its bursting power, if not
potentially increase.
And then
they've got a call option on the movie being a massive
success, I imagine,
in getting royalties.
because i imagine they get equity in the films themselves as well so it's funny right now we have
(22:46):
three variations of the product and it's kind of like different for different risk appetites the
the five percent yield one has bitcoin uh securing the loan not the full obligation but the the
capital uh and you get your five percent you know return but if something were to happen
(23:07):
into the company or anything, you know, that Bitcoin is pledged to you.
And that Bitcoin is from our treasury.
We have on the higher risk side, we have the 10% annualized.
And that one has no early redemption.
All these are set to five-year loans so that, you know, we can let Bitcoin appreciate and
we're not liable for all the fluctuations.
(23:30):
So we have those products right now.
And so far, nobody has asked us about equity in the film, surprisingly.
And I think it's also because of our early investors.
They didn't even care so much about the films.
They were just kind of like, oh, I have mutual funds giving me this.
I could just park it here and I get a better yield.
(23:54):
Oh, that's fascinating.
So it is kind of opening doors to capital that would never touch films.
uh but of course i think we have a whole gamma of potential uh people that could you know like
that may also want some yield as you're saying like some kicker from the film yeah is there uh
is this model catching on is anybody in the film industry or just creative industry in general see
(24:20):
what you guys are doing and being like oh this is interesting are they deriding you are they
cheering you on um i would say that the the response has been really positive um no one has
come for us and said what you're doing is crazy and you should stop doing this uh maybe they think
it i wouldn't be surprised but um it's been very positive it might be catching on we don't know
(24:45):
but like you said earlier we're really only aware of angel studios incorporating bitcoin
on the balance sheet in an entertainment company.
We aren't aware of anyone else doing something similar.
I think that it will eventually become part of the strategy for most companies.
(25:06):
And that's a broader conversation, I suppose, on Bitcoin treasury companies.
But as far as we know, we're one of the earlier movers,
and maybe people are waiting to see how it, you know,
what kind of results we get from this.
I mean, that's a good question.
Cause when it comes to like Saylor and his strategy,
(25:30):
just Bitcoiners who've gotten to Bitcoin early,
generally typically takes a bit of time
for their conviction to be validated.
And so like, at what level would you consider
the strategy a success for you guys?
well i think once we have repaid our first loan like we're very new we just launched um
(25:52):
the white paper anyhow what you know forager's been around for six years but um white paper we
just launched a couple months ago and maybe less than that actually so our first two short films
just filmed this last weekend so we're going to head into post-production we'll have something
to share hopefully by the end of the year we'll start submitting to festivals i think in the next
(26:15):
year, we'll really start to see how things are received, how the Bitcoin element is part of the
marketing or not part of the marketing. We're also not pushing that. I'm not trying to say
everyone has to be talking about how it's backed by Bitcoin. I think it's an interesting talking
point personally, obviously, but our artists, we're not asking them to go out and spread the
(26:41):
worried about the Bitcoin backing unless they, you know, want to talk about how it's made it
possible to fund their film. I think in the next year or two, we'll start to see how, you know,
it's changing the way that the industry is funding films. And for us, it'll be a first test of the
(27:01):
model. Yeah. And I also, I think we, right now we're dealing with shorter form projects, but I
I think the goal is to get features soon.
And we think that in theory, as Bitcoin grows exponentially, so will our treasury and we will have even more funds to play with then.
(27:26):
And I think another portion of it is that we do want to make everything public and put kind of like the treasury life, but also how every film, however, film is attached to a Bitcoin back bond online.
And we want to show also the performance of each bond so people can see, oh, this film is being repaid live, you know, like with Bitcoin in the back.
(27:54):
So it's not just, I think it's a new way to measure a film's success.
It's not just box office.
It's not just fees.
Art can be funded with Bitcoin's performance.
Yeah, building in the open.
That's massive.
(28:15):
And so, I mean, on to the very interesting stuff.
What do you think the film industry is lacking right now
in terms of types of movies that are being made,
themes that are avoided,
stories that aren't being told,
that you guys are excited to back?
(28:39):
That a really good question I say this I add this just for some context because my wife and I and our brother and sister
in law we were having a conversation a couple weeks ago
over dinner
all four of us have
young children between us four
soon to be five under the age
(29:01):
of ten and we were
sort of complaining to
each other that there's no
children's movies
these days that actually have
like real people.
It's all like animated stuff.
And we were reminiscing about
the 90s movies
that we loved, like Dennis the Menace,
Home Alone, Honey I Shrunk
(29:22):
the Kids,
a bunch of really good
children's movies.
Yeah, it was a Stephen King movie
about
the boys.
I can't believe that's escaping
my name, my mind.
But regardless,
it seems like we were just
we have
(29:44):
nonchalantly noticed
the sort of fiatification
of kids' movies
where it's like all these animated movies, which
some of them are really good, but
you're like, God,
I wish the kids had
live-action films like we did
growing up that
they just seemed to be missing out on.
(30:05):
And that's something that we were
just a couple weeks ago saying i wish somebody would fund movies like that yeah i i mean that
is a great point um i also have a couple younger kids and i love animated films i was originally
drawn to filmmaking because i loved the look of stop motion films and then also realized i could
never be a stop motion animator also a very hard thing to do all day long um but so i love animation
(30:31):
I love what you can do there. But you're right, having live action and just seeing other real kids on screen.
I know we're supposed to limit their screen time. I agree with that, but sometimes it's necessary.
And like my one-year-old daughter loves to hold pictures of her family.
And I think just seeing the real people in a photo is like still kind of novel, especially with the screens and, you know, all that they have access to these days.
(30:58):
yeah we uh we had a we had a friday night movie night the other week and the kids watch meet the
parents and it was just funny watching them react to it uh they got emotional in some of the parts
and uh it's like yeah shit it doesn't it feel and that came out i think in like 2000 or 2001
and so you don't have any great movies like that anymore and then carlos you mentioned it we talked
(31:24):
about it with Johnny it just seems like Hollywood these days you're just stuck in this sort of
superhero universe sequel machine it's like okay I don't need another Marvel movie let's let's get
something interesting here yeah I mean I was gonna mention I I got into filmmaking because of all the
auteurs in the 90s like uh Paul Thomas Anderson Tarantino uh even Sofia Coppola um and I feel like
(31:53):
there was a cool trend back then of betting on artists with great vision and you just bet a lot
of money on them and hopefully one of them will be a great film um i feel like there was a risk
taking form that doesn't exist as much anymore of course there's still the big festival circuit
(32:14):
and all that but um not a lot of studios betting on auteurs and uh just uh trusting you know the
the artist vision in that way.
And I think it's,
again,
to what we're talking about,
it's less risk-taking overall.
Yeah.
(32:35):
Like there's no modern day mall rats or airheads.
That's exactly.
It's Dogma.
I love those movies growing up.
And it seems like the deprecation of that risk-taking
happened pretty quickly within the last 15, 20 years,
which may seem like a long time to some people,
but really isn't that long period of time.
(32:58):
No.
And on a similar note,
because I think what's kind of underpinning your examples
is comedy.
And with the cancellation,
late night with Stephen Colbert,
I was listening to a podcast about how comedy,
like adult comedy films,
(33:19):
also has seen,
it has not been something that studios have been investing in for a long time.
We used to have, I don't know, like Anchorman and those sorts of movies that have just become
classics and they're so good, but they don't invest in comedy the way they used to. And it
also seems to be tracking this trend of comedians having their individual platforms on social media.
(33:47):
yeah that's actually a really good point like how much of the landscape has shifted because
of the emergence of social media and these different mediums because everything's gone to
like one two minute clips uh and you see it like i'm not that i'm on tiktok but people share them
(34:08):
on twitter and you see it on instagram like these individual creator accounts that have like a
certain shtick and they make like a minute video it's pretty it's not incredible production but it's
enough to grab your attention and a lot of the eyeballs are going there and i think that's another
another sort of theme that's been discussed between my wife and our brother and sister-in-law
(34:32):
is like the attention span um like bringing back like longer form content and like putting your
found I'm actually engaging in a piece of art for longer than 120 seconds and
extending that to 120 minutes is something that I'd like to return to and we actually
we went and saw the f1 movie a couple of weeks ago and it was uh it was actually fun it was a
(34:57):
fun movie I really liked it and it felt good to be in the first time I was in the theater I think
since covid or actually now last summer we took the kids to see a movie but I've only since covid
but I think I've been to the theater like three or four times maybe.
And,
uh,
going to see movies in the theater is something that I think is becoming a
(35:19):
lost sort of practice in society.
And that's very sad because it is a fun experience.
Yeah.
I saw this fascinated,
fascinating interview with Nick Glaser,
the comedian.
And,
uh,
yeah,
she was basically saying that she lives for the,
YouTube clips or the TikTok clips.
(35:40):
And that's how people really consume your media.
And that's also they assess if you're successful at something.
Like if you are walking red carpets or if you have clips here and there.
But when it comes to the numbers, nobody, even though all these comedians have these HBO specials,
very few people actually watch all that.
(36:01):
like the media really lives in all the clips and all the secondary content that people extract from all those specials.
Which is a little sad because we, of course, want to make long films and proper features.
But yeah, then you're competing with the tension span of the new generation.
(36:24):
Yeah, I mean, this ties back to Bitcoin too because it's really incentive driven.
all those platforms are trying to sell ads
and they just need
volume of one to two minute clips
getting millions of views
to sell ads into
the monetary sort of incentive
disruption that's how it manifests
exactly
I do think when we skim
(36:48):
over TV a little bit because we're
like we're marrying this
you know the short commercial side of things which is like
what Forager has done and now with White Paper
We want to see a reemergence of original ideas and film.
I actually consume more TV than film.
And there is still a lot of great content in TV and watching some really funny shows as well.
(37:11):
So I feel like maybe that's where Hollywood's been hedging its bets a little bit in the streaming and the TV.
Because it does still, I guess, apply to our shorter attention spans.
We don't have to go to the theater and make a whole outing out of it and, you know, spend two and a half, three hours.
And it's also been an interesting thing is that the movies have gotten so long.
(37:35):
It's like to get you to commit to going to a theater and then spending four plus hours.
It's like it's gone completely in the other direction.
And I don't know if that was if that was intentional, but it definitely keeps me from going to the theater.
Not that I would be able to as much anyways,
(37:55):
like you were saying too,
it's pretty hard when you have young kids to find the time to go and make
those arrangements,
but then thinking,
okay,
if we're going to go,
it's going to be a three plus hour commitment.
It's a lot.
Cause everyone's pretty busy.
Yeah.
Like the,
yeah.
Like a 90 minute movie is perfect.
And I'm just a research,
Carlos,
(38:16):
you were mentioning Tarantino.
I think one of my favorite films of all time is reservoir dogs.
And okay.
Just looked it up now.
We're in 40 minutes.
probably longer back then but yeah if you can get like a 90 minute quick hit and that's like
that's where the artistry really comes in is the people that have the ability to
like tell the story in a 90 minute span and really get you emotional and have you thinking after
(38:42):
yeah and i know watch something like game of thrones or house of the dragon like wait i
basically did watch a movie so i'm telling myself i can't go make time for a movie i mean it's
definitely easier to sit in front of my tv and stream something than going to the theater but
some of these shows are are really long and they captivate you and you go oh my gosh i can't believe
i've been sitting here for you know over an hour and i think there's a balance to be struck too
(39:06):
there and again finding that like you said consolidation of a story into 90 minutes which
is like when i was growing up that that was a full film for me too yeah i'm curious what the uh the
short films that you guys are funding now via white paper,
what,
what type of themes and stories are they leaning into?
(39:28):
If you're free to disclose.
Yeah.
So what we're looking at right now,
we do have some comedy.
So it seems to be again,
depending on the discussion and I think we're all looking for a bit of
escape from the day to day.
And that's what comedy can provide.
(39:49):
So we have two short films that are comedic in nature.
One's the satire as well on the fashion industry.
And so I'm really excited to see that one come to life.
And then we've got more of a coming of age story that will be in development next year.
Also deeply rooted in the political polarization of our country.
(40:16):
so that's interesting because I do think those themes are avoided for I'm sure obvious reasons
in Hollywood this time and then another project that will be finished up early next year then is
more like a documentary series and there's a couple episodes for proof of concept there so
(40:40):
it runs the gamut really trying to find a balance in our slate or our portfolio
Yeah. And especially I feel like we're always trying to look for projects that don't seem like that are as commercially viable or that wouldn't seem as attractive to a traditional film investor.
(41:01):
and like one of the projects that we just shot this weekend is that it's basically just physical
comedy and it's two people physically fighting over a piece of lens that they found uh that
fell on someone's shoulder uh so it's no dialogue pure fighting uh yes and and it's just in my
(41:26):
opinion it's just original like uh it doesn't have to fit a specific genre so yeah we're kind of
playing yeah with the whole gamma of like content oh yeah and they would be remiss of me not to
bring it up because we mentioned it earlier but what are your thoughts on this explosion of
ai generated content and how do you view it as people working in the industry is it a tool
(41:55):
that you see yourself leveraging
or do you think there's going to be a market
for like bolts to nuts, beginning to end,
produced, shot, acted, produced by humans
that people will want to consume instead of the AI?
(42:16):
Because hand up, we've been experimenting
with the AI generated content
just to tell stories that we don't think
or being told in little two-minute clips
in an attempt to draw attention to a web browser extension
that we launched.
And it's been fun experimenting with that.
But there is a part of me that's like,
(42:37):
ah, this is cheap, relatively easy.
It's getting us good exposure.
But there is the romantic in me
that thinks that we need to preserve
like actual human filmmaking, acting, and storytelling.
(42:58):
For sure. Yeah.
I mean I think it really You have thoughts No I mean I think it a very sensitive subject of course in our field because as much opportunity as there is of course a lot of people on the artistry side also feel the threat
(43:19):
Because these programs, we're getting better and better every day.
And I personally think that you still need a good amount of taste if you're going to be creating these creative videos or images, just because there's still a lot of AI that looks a little bit plasticky, a little bit if you don't know how to prompt it.
(43:46):
But also if you don't give it good references, it ends up looking still artificial.
all of that's changing
and still
I think a lot of people are treating it
as more
individual
frames or individual clips
not so much like storytelling
(44:06):
like I've seen very few
actual sequences
that tell a story that moves you
or have a beginning and end
so that's still I think
in the starting
phase
but I see a lot of opportunity
especially because
we have
this artist that we collaborate
(44:27):
with a lot and he's very much
into AI and
he only sees opportunity
he's very tech savvy as well
and he was like you know in the past
if I had this idea of like
spiders, robot spiders
coming down from the ceiling
and I wanted to propose that to
a client or to like
another creative
(44:48):
it would be a whole discussion right like they like you would pitch it and they would be like
okay we'll do we need a whole vfx team in india uh to so we can outsource it because it's a lot of
like work a lot of man hours and it's discussions with the vfx company so it's a huge long process
(45:09):
just to come up with spiders coming from the from the ceiling and he's like with ai i can do it
overnight. I can just work on my prompts. I can be in the zone creatively and I can accomplish my
vision just myself with a computer. So in a way, that's really empowering, I think, for a creative
(45:31):
as well. The question is, does the AI overtake that everyone, like even the person creating,
making those decisions? I think that's the debate.
oh sorry Ali
I was gonna say
it's been fun
(45:53):
experimenting it with
but even what we've produced
it's obviously AI
we haven't crossed the uncanny valley
either
and I'm under the belief that all the AGI
ASI talk coming out of Silicon Valley
from the Sam Altman's of the world
is more hype
than actual oomph
I don't think AI is going to be able to replace human creativity.
(46:16):
So the idea that you're just going to launch these models
and they're going to come up with these unique stories
that humans actually connect with, I'm a bit skeptical of,
even with the crazy advancements that we've seen over the last few years.
It could be wrong, but I just have a hunch that you can't create consciousness
in the digital world, in the machine world,
(46:41):
if you will, no matter how vehemently
Sam Altman and others are telling you
that they're doing just that.
Yeah, and you're right.
It is not a replacement for humans' ideas
and good creatives.
You can augment it.
It can be a great springboard.
(47:01):
We've used it to concept things
before they need to be sent to someone to really bring that vision to life.
Because it requires so many different tools.
Even generating images like Carlos has done for certain projects.
Just again, templates, see what we could do.
Someone wants this thing in the shot to move faster or to behave differently.
(47:26):
What would it take?
What could it look like?
It's great for experimentation and stress testing.
but it's not a magic bullet.
And we were pitching on a job last week that has a really tight turnaround
and needs a lot of EFX help.
And the thinking is that, oh, because it's such a tight turnaround,
(47:49):
let's just plug it into AI and make it happen, right?
It's not like that.
You have to take into consideration continuity.
And Carlos had brought up at that point during the pitch,
Every time you generate the image again, something's going to be a little off and you can get really good at prompting.
You can only take it so far before someone else has to come in, another VFX artist to make everything perfect and consistent and take certain things out and add others in so that you're not ending up with a new set of variables every time.
(48:21):
So it's a great tool.
It has definitely sped up some concepting for us and for clients.
I know that they are leaning into it and advertising, you know, just to generate customer research and stress as to whether a certain demographic will respond in a certain way to their idea.
(48:43):
And they can collate all of that research to, you know, ask the AI if it's going to work or not.
I don't know how well that's going to serve them in the long run, but it's interesting because like you said, building consciousness, that seems like too tall of a task.
I think they're trying.
I think they might get pretty close.
(49:04):
But overall, it is not going to completely replace what we're doing.
And we love novel things.
And computers have to be trained on something and then know what to deliver consistently.
And so I don't think anyone's going to react to AI content in the long run and engage in it the same way if we didn't have anyone coming up with the ideas that would make the content different or more, you know,
(49:39):
more relatable for certain situations or what's going on enough in society so there's always going
to be a human driver but it is um causing the industry to contract because like carl said things
can happen faster they can happen with fewer people and so the entire industry and by industry
i mean you know mostly speaking from uh you know post-production in the advertising space but then
(50:03):
you know further into narrative as well it we need to to reorganize ourselves and understand
that it's going to require even more nimbleness and more modular with our relationships and our
vendors than even you know before and that was that's been foragers entire you know foundation
(50:25):
was being nimble and um we still find ourselves going okay let's keep up with this new tech and
what does this mean?
What do we really need to invest in that?
Yeah.
I feel like you guys are ahead of the curve just in the business model,
being nimble,
small,
um,
and,
uh,
(50:45):
boutique,
maybe that might be the right word or the wrong word,
but it's the word that comes to my mind.
And hopefully what I would imagine is there definitely disruption going on,
people worried,
but hopefully that,
that wall of worry turns into people recognize like,
Oh,
there's a lot of opportunity here.
and you see like the world of a thousand flowers bloom
where instead of having the major studios dominate everything,
(51:07):
people recognize that the cost has been cut
and they can compete
and a world of 10,000 foragers emerges
and you have this sort of competition for storytelling,
maybe a combination of human AI production.
Maybe there'll be some,
there's like AI only,
(51:28):
others that are human only.
and it could create like a really cool competitive environment that ultimately should lead to more
creativity and better better film out there yeah definitely and i was having a conversation with
another person in our field a few months ago and and he equated an entirely human production
in the future being like shooting on film now like i really want to shoot on film it's going
(51:53):
to look so authentic instead of you know just using a digital camera and then it's like okay
okay, well, let's think about that.
We have to, you know,
this is how you have to treat film and process it.
And this is the lead time it takes.
And if we just, you know,
if we're short on time and money,
we'll just use the digital camera.
And I think that it is a very good analogy to use for,
(52:13):
you know, as we move forward with AI,
and it gets better and better.
It's like, okay, what is it?
You have time and money
and you want to make something that's entirely human,
no AI, et cetera.
Great.
But do we, you know,
need to make some sacrifices
or cut a few corners and bring in the AI.
And that's just something that's going to be part of everyone's thinking
(52:35):
when they're doing their concept data strategy.
Yeah, and as you guys are proving a white paper,
Bitcoin can be the tool to enable those teams that want to be the film of the next era,
recording on film of the next era, which is doing everything with humans only.
I think that's enabled with smarter capital funding for these films.
(53:03):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like we said in the beginning, it preserves the effort that we're putting in today.
And our industry has seen a bit of a race to the bottom because your money doesn't go as far.
And everyone's companies, operations have been contracting for a number of reasons.
so your nest egg
(53:24):
for making that film
might only get you half a film by the time you get
around to making it because that's the other thing is it takes
a long time to raise capital and set up
a production and
you know you just can't keep up
you can't really keep up and so you've
got to find ways to
do it cheaper and faster
and unfortunately that doesn't
support
(53:45):
like original good
creative filmmaking to the long run
Yeah.
It's exciting.
Like I said in the beginning,
this is,
I love having you two on because I think it's a validation that Bitcoin is
breaking out of the relatively small bubble it's existed in its first 16
(54:05):
years since the protocol launched.
And I'm a true believer in sort of people seeing a company like Forager and
white paper doing what you guys are doing getting inspired and as it pertains to like bitcoin's
adoption over the long run i think it's projects like the ones that you guys are working on that
(54:31):
are like sneaky edge cases they're gonna have profound effects on others because for the
longest time like i said it's been cypherpunks and austrian economics nerds and it really leaned
into bitcoin but i think we just need to normalize bitcoin as a tool for for anybody not just those
(54:51):
who are either economically or politically uh can end up on a in extreme side of of the spectrum of
economics or politics uh bitcoin is simply a tool that anybody can use and i think what you guys are
doing at forager and white paper is an incredible example of that thank you thank you so much um
(55:13):
Yeah, no, and you're right.
It's a tool for everyone.
It's still very hard to get Bitcoin across to our circle
because it's very early on.
Just explaining our concept to fellow filmmakers.
It sounds too good to be true sometimes also.
You get to make your art.
(55:34):
No need to worry about the investment until the investors will give you your returns.
You don't need to worry about the film's performance.
so you can only accomplish that with a tool like Bitcoin
so hopefully it catches on
and we can make some great stuff
where can anybody listening to this find out more
(55:57):
about what you two are up to
yeah so
you can follow us
on X
and that's going to be at white paper
and for our purposes it's spelled
whtptr underscore studio.
(56:17):
Also, Instagram, great for more of our behind the scenes
and actual teasers, the better visual medium for us there.
It's also at whitepaper whtptr.studio.
Either of those places are good ways to follow what we're up to.
(56:39):
Awesome.
We'll make sure we link to all that in the show notes.
Carlos, Allie, thank you for coming on.
I think what you guys are doing is incredibly cool, number one,
incredibly important, number two, really leading the way
and showing people that this stuff is possible
and it could have profound positive effects
on preserving certain art forms, in this case, film,
(57:03):
which is something that I'm passionate about.
I like movies and I would like to see better movies out there.
So the fact that you guys are using Bitcoin in an attempt to fund the directors and artists who are not getting attention from the big studios is really exciting.
Thank you so much.
Thank you so much, Marty.
(57:23):
Appreciate it.
All right.
That's all we got today.
Freaks, peace and love.
Okay.
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