February 15, 2024 • 40 mins
Dallas and Lee enter the ring to review 'The Iron Claw', based on the true story of the inseparable Von Erich brothers, who made history in the intensely competitive world of professional wrestling in the early 1980s.
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(00:03):
Welcome to the Nerd Party. Hello, and welcome to the A twenty four
Project here on the Nerd Party Network, the only podcast to take you through
the back catalog of A twenty four, review the latest releases, and bring
you interviews with the people in frontof and behind the camera. On today's
(00:25):
show, Well, let me tellyou something, brother, what you're gonna
do when Dallas Dynamite King and leavethe Hangman Hutchison square up with the twenty
four inch Pythons combined and go wildon their review of the Iron Claw.
Lee, how are you ready tostep into the Squared Circle this week?
(00:46):
I'm looking forward to I don't thinkI'll be laying the SmackDown or sort of
the what's it called the oh thewrestling move that they do in the film.
I've me and my brother used todo it as kids, like the
souplex is it or something like that? You mean a very basic move like
the soup lix or a power slam, the power slam. Yeah, I'm
(01:07):
definitely not going to be power slammingthis film, so yeah, I'll go
along with that analogy. Okay,cool, Well, before we step into
the Squared Circle, just one bitof a twenty four news this week,
and it's the news that Apple TVand A twenty four are continuing their partnership
and are going to co produce areinterpretation of a Kirakuru Sars crime thriller High
(01:34):
and Low. And this will bedirected by Spike Lee and it will start
Denzel Washington and as just announced yesterday, Halle Berry as well. So,
Lee, what do you make ofthis news? Are you familiar with the
original film and are you slightly skepticalgiven the last time that Spike Lee did
a remake of a foreign language filmfrom Southeast Asia, it was old boy.
(02:00):
I want to give him a passfor that. I mustn't know.
It was quite exciting Spike, Yeah, because he's Spike Lee and Denzel Washington
and Halle Berry. You know,she's She's Yeah, it's one of those
ones. It's hard to kind ofpredict what you'll always get with her,
but sort of Denzel is always kindof a bit of a sign of quality.
And I really enjoyed his sort ofa twenty four film Macbeth as well,
(02:20):
So now I'm really looking forward tothis one. It continues to amaze
me that sort of a twenty fourhave these partnership with HBO Max Now,
Showtime, Apple TV Plus and soon. It's one of those ones.
I don't know who's in charge oforganizing these things, but it's amazing how
we're still quite unclear on where allof these things sometimes slot into. Yeah,
(02:42):
it is a bit confusing, isit, because you would there,
for I think for like a goodyear and a half, there were Apple
exclusive films which would drop on Applesuch as like you know, The Tragic
at Beth and several of those,and then you had the news that they're
releasing their own app where all theirfilms are available under the one app.
But then HBO Max Now apparently hasexclusive streaming rights to all New A twenty
(03:07):
four films for I guess an indeterminateperiod of time, and it's like,
okay, so where do you goto watch all of these films? Of
course, the door has just madeeven more complicated over here in the UK
where everyone has a different distributor.But you know, we've covered that topic
pretty extensively over the last few years, haven't we. So time for the
(03:29):
Iron Claw now. This film iswritten and directed by Sean Durkin, who's
previously directed Marthy, Martha, MarcyMay, Marlene and the Nest And the
film stars at zach Efron, Jeremy, Alan White, Aris Dickinson, My
Attorney, and Holt mccalley. Nowit tells the true story of the inseparable
Von Eric brothers who made history inthe intensely competitive world of professional wrestling in
(03:53):
the nineteen eighties. Through tragedy andtriumph. Under the stewardship of their domineering
father and coach, the brother seeklarger than life immortality on the biggest stage
in sports. So, Lee,I guess a couple of questions, you
know, given that I I thinkit's safe to say the larger of the
(04:14):
wrestling fans on this podcast, Imean your knowledge of wrestling in general.
And then I guess your knowledge ofthe Von Eric family or the Von Night
dynasty before going into this film.Yeah, I think it's one of those
ones. I think I'm, asyou mentioned, a bit of a wrestling
novice, but I kind of feltlike I knew enough to get me by
(04:36):
really like even like Rick Flair,I was familiar with with him for example,
Okay, some of that, andI was aware of the Von Eric
family, Like if you had puta gun to my head and told me
to tell you what I knew aboutthem. I kind of would know that
they're are They're this sort of wrestlingfamily, and there's some sort of jinx
(04:56):
or something that surrounds them. Thatmuch I kind of knew. But I
think one thing that was really helpfulfor me was I was very able to
identify when someone was playing a heelquite early on, and I was like,
yeah, I think I've got enoughto get by here. I can
see what this brother is up to, and and sort of the different roles
and perhaps the kind of the theatricalelements about sort of how wrestling works.
(05:19):
I sort of was familiar enough withthem that I was able to kind of
put into context what was actually kindof going on here, sort of beyond
the superficial of like, oh,wrestling's all fake. It's all these different
roles that people play, and thatkind of helped, he said. He
said the phrase, the dreaded phrasethat wrestling is fake. Wrestling is not
(05:43):
fake, which is just predetermined andscripted, that is all. Ask anyone
who's ever had an injury from thewrestling match, and it was definitely not
fake. They do well. Imean you see in this film as well,
the injuries and stuff that people sustain. I mean, yeah, so
that's you're you're well aware of thethe baby faces, the key ules,
(06:03):
whether something is a shoot or awork, et cetera, et cetera.
So I mean I sort of grewup watching w w what it was w
w F back then before they hada fight which they lost in terms of
trademarks and copyrights with a panda.Yes, in the very early nineties when
(06:23):
it was but then it was yourHogan's. This was when Rick Flair jumped
ship from w c W to WWF. Brett Hart was my favorite back then,
and then we got into the Attitudeera with Stone Cold and the Rock
who has just come back to Yes, much much controversy, but hey,
(06:44):
it's all the big giant soap opera, isn't it really? So you know,
I was familiar with the von Erics. I remember Kerry von Eric when
he was in the WWF as theTexas Tornado. But I have to say
even I was slightly unaware of thefull extent of the the tragedy of the
(07:05):
von Eick family and the von Iericcurse, so to speak. So I
mean you normally like to keep yourpowder dry in terms of what you know
about a film before going in,or trying to avoid the trailers and stuff
like that. So I mean,what were you looking forward to with this
film? You know, what waswhat was the appeal of it for you?
(07:27):
The cast? You know, It'sone of those ones it's been impossible
in the UK to avoid the trailersfor for Iron Claw, similar to to
kind of a few a twenty fourfilms that are sort of in and that
are out just now. We've hada few months wait for this one and
so on. But it was oneof those ones. I've been always someone
that is really always thought quite highlyof zach Efron. I think he is
a really good showman. I reallylike Sean Darkins previous. He's just like
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he's a really like as I mentionedearlier, like wrestling in a way,
is this kind of theatrical, characterdriven sort of thing. And I thought,
you know what, something like zachEfron lends himself really well to that,
and I thought it'd be a greatopportunity to showcase to some of the
people that still think of him asthe high school musical guy after all these
years. And obviously I've not longfinished watching sort of Bear season two as
(08:18):
well, so I'm excited to seesort of Jeremy Allen White outside of his
Whites. And Harris Dickinson continues topick really interesting films, So it was
one of those ones. I wasjust really excited to see what Sean Durkin
did with them, because I thinkwhen you think of his films as well,
well, someone like Jude Law asthis established actor, he did something
really fantastic with him in the Nestthat we hadn't been perhaps seeing in a
(08:39):
while. With Martha May, Marleneand so on. You know, we
get that first introduction to and youOlson Elson family member as well, so
it was his third sister. SoHe's one of these ones where you're like,
oh, I can't wait to seewhat he gives these actors a showcase
to do. And it was oneof those ones. Not that I felt
the trailer spoiled it, but Iwas like, oh, you know,
(09:00):
I know there was a curse orlike, definitely one of them dies,
and I'm watching to think, oh, I don't see that person. It's
maybe that person, but I perhapsdidn't realize the full scale of it.
And it's one of those movies whereknowing so little going in, I was
like immediately sort of lazing on thecouch after watching it, just reading the
Wikipedia page on Kerry, the Wikipediapage on the family, the Wikipedia page
(09:22):
on sort of this kid that wedon't see featured Oh my god, the
tragedy behind the young the oldest youknow kid that we you know died,
So you know when you read thatand you're like, oh my god,
he was electrocuted on something and thendrowned in a bit of snow that was
melting, and you're like, God, they really were cursed, and you
(09:43):
come away from the film thinking theywere the most cursed family ever, and
then when you dive into even further, you're like, christ, I could
understand why he would have that sortof anxiety, And it's been such a
rewarding thing to have gone in sosurprised and then to be able to just
discover there's this whole world to reada about and explore afterwards. Yeah,
(10:03):
yeah, I was familiar with thestory, but yeah, even I was.
I think I knew of like thebrothers who were like in the wrestling
world, say, but didn't knowthe full extent of like, you know,
the Yeah, it's it's a weirdone the oldest brother, but then
also like in the same way,there's sort of the youngest brother because the
guys so young as well, andyeah, they're just sort of this tragedy
(10:26):
and how it all But it's allsort of I guess for't don't spoilers whatever,
but I guess there's a certain reasonwhy it's told from one particular brother's
perspective, and that brother is theKen Kevin Vaughn out play by by Zac
Efron, who you know, it'snot I don't want to say, you
(10:48):
know, that horrible phrase, especiallywhen it comes around to time of transformative
you know, performances. But youknow, I think it's fair to say
that he did, you know,do a lot of work on his body
for this in a different way tohis role in Baywatch. But I'm sure
he did call up his Baywatch costar Dewayne the Rock Johnson for some tips
(11:11):
on how to get into shape forwrestling, and you know, I believe
they all did wrestling training and stufflike that in order to you know,
deliver the moves in the ring oncamera and stuff like that. And I
was really really impressed by him inthis in the fact that the shape that
he got himself into. If youare a fan of wrestling, it's like,
all I can say is he lookslike a wrestler from the nineteen eighties.
(11:35):
You know, wrestling has sort ofevolved, I guess over the years,
and you know, you've now gotyour cruise a weights and stuff like
that, or you've got you know, the smaller wrestlers have been able to
you know, rise to the topoccasionally. But this is you know,
your typical wrestling body. It's quiteshort, stocky, but it's got you
know, the sort of Tom Hardytrapezoids and everything like that, and it's
(11:58):
a real sort of physical transformation thathe's gone. But it's also you know,
like you said, you know,Showcases is acting chops woo. You
know, just I've got to saythat whenever I say the word chop,
given that Rick layers in the movieas well. But you know, he
is very, very impressive here andshould have been nominated for an oscar.
(12:22):
I think it's safe to say.Yeah. I mean, I guess I
was going to touch on that later, but I guess we could touch on
it now. Do you think thata twenty four should have held this film
back until this year, given thatyou know, Past Lives and a couple
of other films were doing the roundsin the Oscar. It was this just
(12:43):
one film too many for them,and it just got unfortunately lost in the
mix. It feels like if theypushed it back a year, zach Efrom
might have stood a better chance,I think, But I mean I think
they did get They have had severalawards and nominations for casting overall the ensemble,
because it is a terrific cast.It was a hard one to break
(13:03):
into this year, wasn't it.Where you do look at the five,
you had like Paul g A,Maatty, Bradley Cooper, Common Domingo,
which I haven't seen Rusting yet socouldn't possibly comment on that, Killian Murphy
and Jeffrey Wright. It's like Iwould have had him perhaps ahead of Jeffrey
right, perhaps may maybe Bradley Cooperas well, and so on. And
(13:24):
yeah, I think it's one ofthose ones that it's always been said over
the years, a twenty four's budgetfor these things isn't always that high,
and it is amazing that, youknow, I think we all perhaps expected
some of their one of their filmsat least to do quite well. I
was surprised, how I was verysurprised at how Zone of Interest Singing to
come out of nowhere and gain thatmomentum with some of the nominations and so
(13:48):
on. And I think perhaps maybeat the end of the money needed to
be just rebalanced somewhere else. I'mnot too sure, but yeah, it's
one of those ones. It's alwayshard enough for them to fight on one
front, let alone two, especiallynot three. So I think he was
he was unlucky, and it's oneof those ones you can gamble on going,
Hey, the film that you know, last I saw, it's grossed
(14:09):
well over like forty million worldwide,which is a huge hit, a twenty
four size, and so on.They banked that, could they have banked,
you know, held off this filmanother year and zac Efron gets nominated
in twenty twenty five. Maybe,But if you're a poker player, what
do you go forward? Do youbank the money now or hope that there's
(14:30):
an easier entrance next year, becauseyou never know who's going to come out
of nowhere. But don't think anyonewould have anticipated months ago. Colman Domingo
could have would have broken that,Paul Giamatti's performance in the Holdovers, Jeffrey
Wrights, etc. So I think, yeah, I think they did the
best that they could at the time. It was just disappointing. If only
there was ten spaces. Yeah,I mean, I guess it is kind
(14:54):
of almost poetic given and Kevin VughanEric's sort of legacy in the wrestling world,
and in that he is the brotherthat never quite makes it himself.
Actually, you know, Zach's missedout on a nomination to all these other
actors, and you know, Kevinwas the one that was continually just missing
(15:18):
out on that big title shot orthat big title run and stuff like that,
and you know, it's really interestingto watch. I mean this what
was great about the film, Ithink is if you are a wrestling fan,
there is a lot in there foryou for you to appreciate, But
it also works even if you're nota wrestling fan. At its core,
(15:39):
it is a family drama that happensto be set in the world of wrestling,
But if you're a fan of wrestling, or even if you're not,
there is a lot to get outof it. It's so I like how
it sort of blurs the showcases thereality almost of the wrestling world, and
particularly looking at someone like Kevin VarughanEric who is physically what you would expect
(16:00):
from, you know, a worldheavyweight champion, but that isn't everything.
You need that X factor, Youneed that work. I mean that you
can see there's the great scene wherehe's doing recording the what looks like is
a pro a live promo and thenit's like cut and then it's actually just
being recorded for a show and he'strying to do it and he keeps fluffing
(16:22):
his lines and you know, hisbrother's putting him off and stuff like that,
and it shows you that you know, it is all scripted. You
know they sometimes I guess when you'reout in front of a crowd, you
know, they often sort of say, you know, it's it's basically it's
scripted, but it's not. Andthat you have you know, your key
points you've got to hit. Youknow, you've got to mention you know
the date that you know you're goingto fight someone, what the event is,
(16:44):
and stuff like that, and thenjust run them down and stuff like
that. So you need to havegreat physic you need to have great skill
and technique, but you also needto be good at, you know,
delivering promos and stuff like that,and that's something which one of his brothers,
David von Eric played by Hars Dickinson, is much better at. And
then you've got the sort of dynamic. You know, they work perfectly as
a trio, but they've all gotthis sort of different skills. But then,
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you know, as the dad says, you know, he's got this
ranking system and the rankings can alwayschange, and at one point or another,
Kevin just continually gets sort of passedover in favor of one of the
other brothers. But then, youknow, I guess you've got to look
at it that if he was pushedharder, you know, would he have
potentially suffered the same fate as someof his other brothers. Yeah, it's
(17:29):
an interesting one to consider, andit is one of those ones. It's
like that flip of a coin,really, isn't it when at one point
it's being decided between him and oneof his other brothers who takes part in
a fight. And sometimes that's justthe luck of it all, isn't it.
And you know, there are somany moments where you watch the film,
and it's like the sliding doors moment, or if someone didn't get on
a bike at this point, orif someone didn't do this or that,
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or you know, someone ran intothe ring and you know did a great
shoot for example. It's amazing howmuch of their family is just crazy little
moments that kind of define them andso on. And yeah, it could
easily have been him that didn't makethe cut, and you know, who
knows what the consequences would have been. Yep. I mean there's that moment
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where he sort of sort of takeyou know, just keeps beating Rick Flair
down to a pulp because you know, he's letting out all this frustration and
stuff like that. It wasn't theway that the match was meant to end,
but you know, he gets overin some ways, but then not
in others. And it's interesting tosee, you know, like you say,
a lot of it is down notmaybe necessarily on luck, but it's
(18:37):
all down to you know, thecrowd of the ones that will essentially annoint
you a champion or not. AndI mean you just have to look at
something like the situation at the momentin WWE where Cody Rhodes was winning the
Royal Rumble and was going to challengeRoman Reigns, but then The Rock comes
back and he wants to fight hiscousin for the title of Head of the
(19:00):
Table with WrestleMania, so Cody sortof steps aside. But then within a
week, you know, there's allthis negative fan reaction, and you know,
the Rock is you know, clearlyclever enough to know when something's not
working, and then sort of basicallythen turns heel the WrestleMania kickoff show,
slaps Cody Rose and then sides withhis own family and stuff like this,
(19:22):
and so you know, that's anexample of how a storyline, so it
can change in an instant because youknow of how the crowd reacts, and
it sort of showcases here with thefamily and how certain brothers rise above Kevin
purely based on crowd reaction and stufflike that. Basically, David was the
one that was better on the mic, and that was why, you know,
his dad decided to push him againstRick Flay and the first thing.
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But then you know, everyone eventuallysort of gets a shot, and it's
just it's basically how you deal withthe fame and also the stresses because I
mean a lot of the wrestlers talkabout how the fact that basically they would
be on the for three three hundredand fifty days out three Indred sixty five
A. You you might get sortof Christmas off, but you'd be on
(20:07):
the road and it's incredibly grueling onthe body and stuff like that, and
also on the mind, I guessfor many of these wrestlers, And you
can see the physical and mental tollethat it's taken on some of these brothers
across the movie. Yeah, andit did feel like a bit of a
journey. And the one thing,it's one of those ones I almost wish
there was like a three hour versionof this film where it would have been
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interesting to kind of see a bitmore of the life on the road,
et cetera. As these performers andso on. It did feel like it
would be quite self contained, oftenwithin sort of kind of Texas and so
on. But again sometimes that comesdown to budget and so on. It
just felt like there was that elementthat was just missing a little bit,
that was a bit more show andtell sometimes these experiences that they were having
(20:52):
on the road, and you wouldsometimes maybe just lose a little bit of
bearing of time, sometimes due toOh, someone's off to Japan and so,
oh oh, we've got there already. I thought it was like three
months ago, and you could geta bit lost with it, and maybe
the film just needed that a littlebit more time just to let that aspect
kind of flourish. I mean,the film was completely fantastic without it,
but would there have been a slightlywould that have made for a slightly even
(21:18):
better film? Potentially so, Butyeah, I think that was just the
one thing that was missing between alot of the tragedies. Yeah, because
yeah, I know what you're sayingabout. Yeah, because they talk about
sort of Dave of Wunna going offto wrestle Rick Flair for the championship in
Japan, and you think, oh, great, well we'll get to see
that, and then we don't.And I guess part of that is down
(21:40):
to the fact that Kevin is themain focal point of the story and because
he never really broke out and left. Because I mean, like the family
seemed to be based their wrestling federationwas based pure mainly in Texas, so
they would go around the sort ofTexas circus, but it was the likes
of the what was NWA at thetime, and WWF were the ones that
(22:03):
were touring sort of nationwide and stufflike that. We had these small,
slightly smaller rural wrestling federations that weredoing that. But yeah, because it
was focused on Kevin, it didseem to contain the story slightly. But
you bring up something there, butyou know what to see a bit more
and I mean, there is alot more to the story, and you
(22:25):
sort of hinted it earlier about thefact that there was an entire brother sort
of who was taken out of themovie and not even referenced. And you
know, Sean dirk and has saidin interviews over the last few months that
for several years that he was writingthe script, the brother was in and
then he was out, and thenhe was back in again, and then
(22:45):
it was just how do you tellthis story? And he basically felt that,
given that so many of the brotherssuffered a similar fate, that it
was just a how do you makethem different enough to warrant telling the same
story? But then at one pointit just becomes so bleak that you know,
(23:07):
it would have been almost impossible topull out of that almost sort of
nosedive that the film is going throughand you know how much I mean,
I mean, it's true this familywent through all of the strategy, but
how much can you realistically show onfilm? And still, I guess keep
the audience with you to the finishline. You know, this is following
a man who is so repressed inhis emotions. You know, they can
(23:32):
only come out, like I guess, when he's alive in the ring.
That's the only time, and that'syou know, when you know he ends
up, you know, sort ofcosting himself basically a match to taking out
on a wrestler, and you know, it almost costs him his marriage and
you know, from seeing his kidsand stuff, because he's unable to process
this. He he thinks that bythem staying with him that they will become
(23:53):
I mean even sort of Yeah,keeps his original name for the kids because
rather than the var Nets, becausehe doesn't want to pass on the curse
to them. He's just obsessive aboutit. And it's you know, it's
it's a fantastic thing to watch,and you really do feel for Zach Effron,
and it's it's you know, it'sit reminded me also of one of
(24:15):
my other favorite sporting movies, whichis Warrior, which also features two sort
of strange brothers fighting and stuff likethat. And yeah, I don't have
a brother myself, but I certainlysort of felt for him during this movie,
and it's certainly connected with a lotof of the male watchers of this
film, with a lot of hashtagmanly tears shed during screenings of this one,
(24:41):
I think, yeah, absolutely,and it's one of tho zones.
I certainly didn't cry myself, butyou know, I was nearly there at
the end and so on, Butit was one of those ones. It
was just testament to Zach Efron's performance. You're just watching this guy go through,
you know, the grind of itall and so on, and you
just your heart breaks for And Ido agree, having kind of read up
(25:02):
on it all afterwards, like whythey cut that additional on Eric thing out,
because it's very much the same,And it's one of those ones where
you know, at the end ofthe day, it's you know, they
said it right at the beginning firstshot of the film, inspired by a
true story and so on, andyou know, at the end of the
day, there's plenty that's been writtenabout this family over the years. There's
documentaries. I'm no doubt going toget around to it this week because I've
(25:27):
never seen that episode. I've onlyever seen a handful. But like you
know, the Dark Side of theRing, et cetera. You know,
there's it's it's out there and soon, and you know it's even just
some of their there's the odd littlebit of liberty about how things happened or
connected, et cetera. But thefilm is it's its own thing, and
it is really true to that storyand experience as best as I can tell
(25:48):
anyway. And yeah, it's there'snothing wrong sometimes without growth going on and
doing your own bit of reading andpicking up on the stories. But I
don't know how they would have fittedin that extra person's story Chris and so
on, and how that would haveconnected without sort of dragging the film and
making it feel a bit longer orwhere the flow would have been for that.
(26:10):
I just think it just it justwouldn't have worked. And so I
mean, if dark and couldn't makeit work, I believe him. Yeah,
No, it's it's almost like likeyou say, it's inspired by true
stories, so you have to takedramatic license, and sometimes you have to
move the timelines around a bit orsort of condense certain people's storylines and the
(26:32):
malgamate characters and stuff like that.But it is almost to the point where,
you know, for those who didn'tknow the story, there's I think
if you'd included that character, theycould have almost got to the point where
they're like, well, this couldn'tpossibly have happened. This family couldn't have
possibly experienced all this, and itmight have almost taken them out of the
(26:52):
film, even though it is true. It comes a point where it is
almost too much, and I think, yeah, like you say, well,
it would have been great to havethe whole story. I think that's
something like a long form documentary thatyou say would have been able to do,
whereas this, which is I meaneven though it's still sort of two
hours telve minutes, so you havea finite window in which to tell the
(27:15):
story. And I think that,yeah, Sean Dirkin did make the right
choices overall. So, I mean, so you see the tragedy, you
see the triumphs, but I meanfor you, I mean, what did
you make of the actual wrestling scenes. I mean, I know that a
lot of people. I think Isee a meme where it was like,
so, I think it was likesomeone sitting back in a chair and then
(27:37):
sitting right up sort of peering towardsthe screen. It was basically all dads
when Rush kicked in during the wrestlingmontage, and it was like, all,
right, here we go, thisis it. What did you make
of that wrestling montage, which basicallyshowed when the moment that the von Eric
brothers sort of came together and they'rerise to the top as as the best
(28:03):
triple tag team in the world atthe time. Yeah, what I really
liked about it was that it wasit played up to the theatrical version of
what these things are like that youwatch it and it's not sitting there thinking
like you can't see the sort ofthe mist hit, the you know,
the kind of they're pulling the punchesand sort of like the you know,
I'm not going to see the fake, but the theatrical version of sort of
(28:26):
how you do these wrestles, Andobviously there was certainly a lot of kind
of blood and sweat that takes placein these things, but you're watching it
going, oh, it's like thattype of wrestling. It's it's a drama.
It's not UFC where people are necessarilylike really pounding each other. And
I really like that as well.I can imagine it would have been easy
to kind of, you know,trying to avoid that perhaps or something like
(28:49):
that. And I watched and Ithought, Oh, that is the genuine
representation of of what it was.It wasn't choreographed to such an extent that
it didn't felt believable. It feltit felt like top end amateur and so
on, which is kind of whatsome of this stuff really was. And
I really liked that year. Ifwe'd saw more perhaps of kind of the
w WUF at the time, thatmight have been been a bit different and
(29:11):
so on. But no, thisfelt like what it was and what people
really get out of these things andso on. It was. Yeah,
it was an art form in itself, which I was really impressed with.
And then and perhaps I didn't expect, Yeah, No, I really really
enjoyed that sequence. I mean,I was briefly taken out of the movie
(29:32):
when Tom Sawer by Rush came onbecause it immediately made me think of the
film I Love You Man and PaulRudder slab of the base when they go
to see the Rush gig. Butit also it reminded me in a way
of I don't know if you watchthis when you were when you were younger,
but the British wrestling that was onon a Saturday afternoon with like Big
(29:55):
Daddy and joining the Haystacks and whatever, it had that kind of few But
I know, it's like the wayit was shot, it looked like you
know, I use the word reallike verticon. It looked like real fighting.
There wasn't the like you say,like the slapping of the legs when
they were kicking and stuff like that, or the ways you didn't notice all
(30:17):
the different ways that they know theyprotect the other wrestler when doing power slams
and superlex's and stuff like that.It looked like, you know, the
flamboyant, over the top fighting stylethat you know people come to see the
gladiatorial contests in the ring and stufflike that. So you know, I
really enjoyed that serience, and itwas nice to see as a wrestling fan
(30:37):
seeing sort of other wrestling characters thatI was aware of, like the Fabulous
Free Birds and the Iron Chic andstuff like that. So yeah, lots
of little nods for the wrestling nerdsout there, but still overall looking good
time. And yes, that wasprobably one of the high points of the
movie from a technical standpoint, butalso I guess for the von Erics as
(30:59):
well. Yeah, it's just it'sone of those ones. It's opened up
a world for me that can't waitto dive into. I mean, on
the as I say, I justthere was a bit where, you know,
we talk about some of the biggestshocks in surprise you ever getting films,
and the bit were like Kerry,despite you know, the injury he
takes on that he made it tothe WWF. I just had the screen
(31:21):
going no way like that just thatwas one of the biggest shots ever.
And you know, I actually hadto google that actually as well, because
I was like, I remember,I was like, but he was in
the w W and I was like, no, but it's like, no,
he could not have been wrestling inthe WWE with a prosthetic foot.
That can't And then agreement, buddyell I did. I mean, yeah,
(31:45):
he did have a short lived run, but the fact that nobody twigged,
I mean, I was just like, I was like, that had
to have been made up for thefilm. They must have added that for
a bit of extra drama, andI was like, oh, that was
true. I mean it's like thatwas one of the too crazy to be
true, but it is true.I never doubt it because I thought there's
no chance with this film and what'sgoing for that they've made up that.
(32:06):
And he gets to the w Wif you're like, oh my god,
I bet that's nailed on. HowI couldn't believe it. And I remember
reading up afterwards that nearly everyone thathe was working alongside did not know that
he had that injury, which wasjust mind blowing. And you know,
for me, when I saw that, You're like, well, that's that's
the pinnacle of this world that theywere working in and so on, and
(32:28):
he made it despite these kind ofobstacles. It was just incredible. Yeah,
I mean yeah at the time,and actually I guess still yeah,
WW was the that was the placethat you wanted to get to. You
want to be the WWE champion,you want to be the whole Coogan or
the Rick Flair of this world.And you know, Kerry managed to get
(32:49):
to the Intercontinental Championship, So youknow, for me, my actually preferred
championship when I was growing up,it was my favorite wrestlers all held that
one. The mister Perfects, therowdy Rodie Pipers, the Brett Harts and
whatever that was. That was theworkhorse championship. That was the one that
you got. And then after awhile you would then lose that type,
but then you would graduate, you'dmove up to the next bit. And
(33:12):
sadly Kerry never managed to break throughto the next level, but still still
an incredible legacy that they they leftbehind. And it was in two thousand
and nine that they were the wholefamily and the whole dynasty was inducted into
the ww Hall of Fame, andI think a rightful tribute to you know,
(33:35):
this family that you know, maybedidn't all make it on the biggest
stage, but clearly left an incrediblemark on the world of wrestling. And
not that type of mark. No, not that type of mark. You
see, you're learning, you learningall the time, yep. And once
you dive into all these documentaries likeBeyond the Mat and yeah, I've seen
a few over the years. Iwatched I think the Chris Benoir one and
(33:58):
it was just a brilliant series,and it feels like you could probably go
on for you know, thirty seasonswith how much of the kind of characters
and and kind of rogues if I'mon even on the generous side, there
are in that world as well.Given the latest of allegations, I'm sure
there's going to be a multi partdocumentary in Vincent Man soon as well.
(34:20):
So yes, but yes, noonto lighter topics. So you know,
now that you've seen this, keento sort of get your sort of them
of where it would sit. Iguess in terms of I guess sort of
sports movies, I mean, wheredoes it sit among your favorite sort of
sports movies? And then I guess, you know, whereabout in terms of
(34:43):
the in the ever increasing wonderful pantheonof A twenty four. It's one of
those ones. I definitely want tosee this one again. I'm really really
keen to catch this one again.I think this one would be in the
top top twenty five or the sortof the top quarter really for me in
terms of A twenty five or films. I just thought every one of the
performances was was fantastic, and youknow, for it's not just the brothers,
(35:06):
you know, The Father was fantastic, even sort of the I thought
that gotten to mention, he's oneof my little favorite actors who pops up,
you know. Obviously he had theMind Hunters series with David Fincher,
which is basically one it is almostlike first sort of leading roles in TV
film whatever. But I remembered himin like so many films like Fight Club
and stuff. Whenever he pops up, you're like, You're always like,
(35:28):
oh, yeah, I like thatguy, that guy and that thing,
and yeah, just I thought thewhole cast was great, and it's it's
one of those ones where I'm reallykeen to watch this one again and I'll,
you know, depending on how thenext few weeks ago, I might
catch this one again and sort ofthe cinemas. I just it was one
of those ones where it's it's somethingI came away and I learned a lot
about something that I didn't know andso on, and you know, it's
(35:51):
made me want to just as say, dive into these you know these people
more and so on. There's justsuch a fascinating story there that I'm genuinely
surprised that got didn't get told beforenow. And you know, when you
even talk about the wrestler, youthink, oh, I'm surprised, you
know a Darren Aronofsky at the timedidn't go for a story like this or
others. And it's just a fascinating, fascinating world and so on, and
(36:12):
it's just one of those ones.I just continue to hope something like this
continues to propel zach Efron forward andfor people to look at him as the
fantastic talent he is. But justa fantastic film. I'd have this in
the top quarter of the of atwenty four films and one I can't wait
to experience again. More about foryourself as the Bourne Heel Wrestler. I
(36:35):
thought it was really really sort ofstrong, really sort of powerful, a
great testament to I think it didwell in portraying wrestling realistically. I think
it didn't sort of sugarcoat the trialsand tribulations of wrestling, but it also
didn't it didn't make a mocker ofit anytime. It was very respectful to
(36:55):
it. So that's what I reallyliked about it. And yeah, the
per film as were fantastic, andyeah, it's one which I will go
and see again. I saw inNew York at the beginning of the year.
But I really do need to takemy dad to it. He got
me into into wrestling all those yearsago, so I feel like we should
go for a father son trip tothe cinema, you know, for a
(37:17):
wrestling movie that is not just featuringDwayne the Rock Johnson in an action role,
but actually is one about wrestling thesedays. And you know, it's
as a wrestling movie, which iscertainly higher quality than anything that say,
like Hulk Cogan has produced over theyears. You know, you know,
there have been some good wrestless turnactors well in certain roles such as Jesse
(37:40):
Venture and Predator and the like,and John Cena and the Abatista have continued
to surprise and yes, so yeah, definitely will be catching it once again
on the road to WrestleMania. Yeah, it's gonna be be interesting. As
I say, I just love that, you know, I have my thoughts
(38:00):
on wrestling, but this felt likeit wasn't something that sneered at the business,
the biz as it were, orsort of mocked it, et cetera.
I think that, and that's oneof the best things that you can
can say about the film, isn'tit. Yeah, no, it was
a fitting testimony to the world ofwrestling, but also to this family that
did so much for the world ofwrestling as well. And yeah, like
(38:23):
you say, I mean hopefully youknow, zach Efrone continues to pursue this
type of role and it might beslightly disheartening for him to have put so
much into a performance like this andthen maybe feel like it hasn't been recognized
like it should. But he's clearlyvery, very talented, and I hope
(38:43):
he continues to rise up the ranksand does more movies like this. So
yes, Zach, stay in theworld of A twenty four. A twenty
four likes you, and yes youshould do more with them. I think
more films like the weird and wackyones that you get with A twenty four
much better than the likes of bayWatch and stuff like that. Hey just
(39:05):
looked like someone like Christian Stuart,you know, who started off in like
the Twilights and whatever. She's goneon to do fantastic things while stepping into
the world of independent film and Atwenty four. Although somebody tried to claim
I saw on Twitter or something theother day about oh I can't wait for
Love Lives Bleating. It's her firstAy twenty four films, and I'm like,
I think I'm finding that that wasactually Equals, starring Nicholas Hope,
(39:25):
that it was released many many yearsago and it is one of the people
to watch Equals. It's good thatwe're raising awareness absolutely, which you can
of course listen to your review ofthat on an earlier podcast. However,
our next episode coming up at theend of the month will be Love Lives
Bleeding, the new film starring withChristian Stewart from Saint Maud director Rose Glass,
(39:46):
and we will be reviewing that afterwe see it at the opening gala
of this year's Glasgow Film Festival.It's been at Sundance, it's heading over
to Berlinal and then we'll catch itin Scotland in a couple of weeks time,
and then we'll be back to reviewthat very very soon. But until
then, we're off to the showersafter a sweaty time in the Squared Circle.
(40:07):
And yes it's been a right royalrumble, but we've enjoyed ourselves.
We'll catch you soon.
Welcome to the Nerd Party. Hello, and welcome to the A twenty four
Project here on the Nerd Party Network, the only podcast to take you through
the back catalog of A twenty four, review the latest releases, and bring
you interviews with the people in frontof and behind the camera. On today's
(00:25):
show, Well, let me tellyou something, brother, what you're gonna
do when Dallas Dynamite King and leavethe Hangman Hutchison square up with the twenty
four inch Pythons combined and go wildon their review of the Iron Claw.
Lee, how are you ready tostep into the Squared Circle this week?
(00:46):
I'm looking forward to I don't thinkI'll be laying the SmackDown or sort of
the what's it called the oh thewrestling move that they do in the film.
I've me and my brother used todo it as kids, like the
souplex is it or something like that? You mean a very basic move like
the soup lix or a power slam, the power slam. Yeah, I'm
(01:07):
definitely not going to be power slammingthis film, so yeah, I'll go
along with that analogy. Okay,cool, Well, before we step into
the Squared Circle, just one bitof a twenty four news this week,
and it's the news that Apple TVand A twenty four are continuing their partnership
and are going to co produce areinterpretation of a Kirakuru Sars crime thriller High
(01:34):
and Low. And this will bedirected by Spike Lee and it will start
Denzel Washington and as just announced yesterday, Halle Berry as well. So,
Lee, what do you make ofthis news? Are you familiar with the
original film and are you slightly skepticalgiven the last time that Spike Lee did
a remake of a foreign language filmfrom Southeast Asia, it was old boy.
(02:00):
I want to give him a passfor that. I mustn't know.
It was quite exciting Spike, Yeah, because he's Spike Lee and Denzel Washington
and Halle Berry. You know,she's She's Yeah, it's one of those
ones. It's hard to kind ofpredict what you'll always get with her,
but sort of Denzel is always kindof a bit of a sign of quality.
And I really enjoyed his sort ofa twenty four film Macbeth as well,
(02:20):
So now I'm really looking forward tothis one. It continues to amaze
me that sort of a twenty fourhave these partnership with HBO Max Now,
Showtime, Apple TV Plus and soon. It's one of those ones.
I don't know who's in charge oforganizing these things, but it's amazing how
we're still quite unclear on where allof these things sometimes slot into. Yeah,
(02:42):
it is a bit confusing, isit, because you would there,
for I think for like a goodyear and a half, there were Apple
exclusive films which would drop on Applesuch as like you know, The Tragic
at Beth and several of those,and then you had the news that they're
releasing their own app where all theirfilms are available under the one app.
But then HBO Max Now apparently hasexclusive streaming rights to all New A twenty
(03:07):
four films for I guess an indeterminateperiod of time, and it's like,
okay, so where do you goto watch all of these films? Of
course, the door has just madeeven more complicated over here in the UK
where everyone has a different distributor.But you know, we've covered that topic
pretty extensively over the last few years, haven't we. So time for the
(03:29):
Iron Claw now. This film iswritten and directed by Sean Durkin, who's
previously directed Marthy, Martha, MarcyMay, Marlene and the Nest And the
film stars at zach Efron, Jeremy, Alan White, Aris Dickinson, My
Attorney, and Holt mccalley. Nowit tells the true story of the inseparable
Von Eric brothers who made history inthe intensely competitive world of professional wrestling in
(03:53):
the nineteen eighties. Through tragedy andtriumph. Under the stewardship of their domineering
father and coach, the brother seeklarger than life immortality on the biggest stage
in sports. So, Lee,I guess a couple of questions, you
know, given that I I thinkit's safe to say the larger of the
(04:14):
wrestling fans on this podcast, Imean your knowledge of wrestling in general.
And then I guess your knowledge ofthe Von Eric family or the Von Night
dynasty before going into this film.Yeah, I think it's one of those
ones. I think I'm, asyou mentioned, a bit of a wrestling
novice, but I kind of feltlike I knew enough to get me by
(04:36):
really like even like Rick Flair,I was familiar with with him for example,
Okay, some of that, andI was aware of the Von Eric
family, Like if you had puta gun to my head and told me
to tell you what I knew aboutthem. I kind of would know that
they're are They're this sort of wrestlingfamily, and there's some sort of jinx
(04:56):
or something that surrounds them. Thatmuch I kind of knew. But I
think one thing that was really helpfulfor me was I was very able to
identify when someone was playing a heelquite early on, and I was like,
yeah, I think I've got enoughto get by here. I can
see what this brother is up to, and and sort of the different roles
and perhaps the kind of the theatricalelements about sort of how wrestling works.
(05:19):
I sort of was familiar enough withthem that I was able to kind of
put into context what was actually kindof going on here, sort of beyond
the superficial of like, oh,wrestling's all fake. It's all these different
roles that people play, and thatkind of helped, he said. He
said the phrase, the dreaded phrasethat wrestling is fake. Wrestling is not
(05:43):
fake, which is just predetermined andscripted, that is all. Ask anyone
who's ever had an injury from thewrestling match, and it was definitely not
fake. They do well. Imean you see in this film as well,
the injuries and stuff that people sustain. I mean, yeah, so
that's you're you're well aware of thethe baby faces, the key ules,
(06:03):
whether something is a shoot or awork, et cetera, et cetera.
So I mean I sort of grewup watching w w what it was w
w F back then before they hada fight which they lost in terms of
trademarks and copyrights with a panda.Yes, in the very early nineties when
(06:23):
it was but then it was yourHogan's. This was when Rick Flair jumped
ship from w c W to WWF. Brett Hart was my favorite back then,
and then we got into the Attitudeera with Stone Cold and the Rock
who has just come back to Yes, much much controversy, but hey,
(06:44):
it's all the big giant soap opera, isn't it really? So you know,
I was familiar with the von Erics. I remember Kerry von Eric when
he was in the WWF as theTexas Tornado. But I have to say
even I was slightly unaware of thefull extent of the the tragedy of the
(07:05):
von Eick family and the von Iericcurse, so to speak. So I
mean you normally like to keep yourpowder dry in terms of what you know
about a film before going in,or trying to avoid the trailers and stuff
like that. So I mean,what were you looking forward to with this
film? You know, what waswhat was the appeal of it for you?
(07:27):
The cast? You know, It'sone of those ones it's been impossible
in the UK to avoid the trailersfor for Iron Claw, similar to to
kind of a few a twenty fourfilms that are sort of in and that
are out just now. We've hada few months wait for this one and
so on. But it was oneof those ones. I've been always someone
that is really always thought quite highlyof zach Efron. I think he is
a really good showman. I reallylike Sean Darkins previous. He's just like
(07:55):
he's a really like as I mentionedearlier, like wrestling in a way,
is this kind of theatrical, characterdriven sort of thing. And I thought,
you know what, something like zachEfron lends himself really well to that,
and I thought it'd be a greatopportunity to showcase to some of the
people that still think of him asthe high school musical guy after all these
years. And obviously I've not longfinished watching sort of Bear season two as
(08:18):
well, so I'm excited to seesort of Jeremy Allen White outside of his
Whites. And Harris Dickinson continues topick really interesting films, So it was
one of those ones. I wasjust really excited to see what Sean Durkin
did with them, because I thinkwhen you think of his films as well,
well, someone like Jude Law asthis established actor, he did something
really fantastic with him in the Nestthat we hadn't been perhaps seeing in a
(08:39):
while. With Martha May, Marleneand so on. You know, we
get that first introduction to and youOlson Elson family member as well, so
it was his third sister. SoHe's one of these ones where you're like,
oh, I can't wait to seewhat he gives these actors a showcase
to do. And it was oneof those ones. Not that I felt
the trailer spoiled it, but Iwas like, oh, you know,
(09:00):
I know there was a curse orlike, definitely one of them dies,
and I'm watching to think, oh, I don't see that person. It's
maybe that person, but I perhapsdidn't realize the full scale of it.
And it's one of those movies whereknowing so little going in, I was
like immediately sort of lazing on thecouch after watching it, just reading the
Wikipedia page on Kerry, the Wikipediapage on the family, the Wikipedia page
(09:22):
on sort of this kid that wedon't see featured Oh my god, the
tragedy behind the young the oldest youknow kid that we you know died,
So you know when you read thatand you're like, oh my god,
he was electrocuted on something and thendrowned in a bit of snow that was
melting, and you're like, God, they really were cursed, and you
(09:43):
come away from the film thinking theywere the most cursed family ever, and
then when you dive into even further, you're like, christ, I could
understand why he would have that sortof anxiety, And it's been such a
rewarding thing to have gone in sosurprised and then to be able to just
discover there's this whole world to reada about and explore afterwards. Yeah,
(10:03):
yeah, I was familiar with thestory, but yeah, even I was.
I think I knew of like thebrothers who were like in the wrestling
world, say, but didn't knowthe full extent of like, you know,
the Yeah, it's it's a weirdone the oldest brother, but then
also like in the same way,there's sort of the youngest brother because the
guys so young as well, andyeah, they're just sort of this tragedy
(10:26):
and how it all But it's allsort of I guess for't don't spoilers whatever,
but I guess there's a certain reasonwhy it's told from one particular brother's
perspective, and that brother is theKen Kevin Vaughn out play by by Zac
Efron, who you know, it'snot I don't want to say, you
(10:48):
know, that horrible phrase, especiallywhen it comes around to time of transformative
you know, performances. But youknow, I think it's fair to say
that he did, you know,do a lot of work on his body
for this in a different way tohis role in Baywatch. But I'm sure
he did call up his Baywatch costar Dewayne the Rock Johnson for some tips
(11:11):
on how to get into shape forwrestling, and you know, I believe
they all did wrestling training and stufflike that in order to you know,
deliver the moves in the ring oncamera and stuff like that. And I
was really really impressed by him inthis in the fact that the shape that
he got himself into. If youare a fan of wrestling, it's like,
all I can say is he lookslike a wrestler from the nineteen eighties.
(11:35):
You know, wrestling has sort ofevolved, I guess over the years,
and you know, you've now gotyour cruise a weights and stuff like
that, or you've got you know, the smaller wrestlers have been able to
you know, rise to the topoccasionally. But this is you know,
your typical wrestling body. It's quiteshort, stocky, but it's got you
know, the sort of Tom Hardytrapezoids and everything like that, and it's
(11:58):
a real sort of physical transformation thathe's gone. But it's also you know,
like you said, you know,Showcases is acting chops woo. You
know, just I've got to saythat whenever I say the word chop,
given that Rick layers in the movieas well. But you know, he
is very, very impressive here andshould have been nominated for an oscar.
(12:22):
I think it's safe to say.Yeah. I mean, I guess I
was going to touch on that later, but I guess we could touch on
it now. Do you think thata twenty four should have held this film
back until this year, given thatyou know, Past Lives and a couple
of other films were doing the roundsin the Oscar. It was this just
(12:43):
one film too many for them,and it just got unfortunately lost in the
mix. It feels like if theypushed it back a year, zach Efrom
might have stood a better chance,I think, But I mean I think
they did get They have had severalawards and nominations for casting overall the ensemble,
because it is a terrific cast.It was a hard one to break
(13:03):
into this year, wasn't it.Where you do look at the five,
you had like Paul g A,Maatty, Bradley Cooper, Common Domingo,
which I haven't seen Rusting yet socouldn't possibly comment on that, Killian Murphy
and Jeffrey Wright. It's like Iwould have had him perhaps ahead of Jeffrey
right, perhaps may maybe Bradley Cooperas well, and so on. And
(13:24):
yeah, I think it's one ofthose ones that it's always been said over
the years, a twenty four's budgetfor these things isn't always that high,
and it is amazing that, youknow, I think we all perhaps expected
some of their one of their filmsat least to do quite well. I
was surprised, how I was verysurprised at how Zone of Interest Singing to
come out of nowhere and gain thatmomentum with some of the nominations and so
(13:48):
on. And I think perhaps maybeat the end of the money needed to
be just rebalanced somewhere else. I'mnot too sure, but yeah, it's
one of those ones. It's alwayshard enough for them to fight on one
front, let alone two, especiallynot three. So I think he was
he was unlucky, and it's oneof those ones you can gamble on going,
Hey, the film that you know, last I saw, it's grossed
(14:09):
well over like forty million worldwide,which is a huge hit, a twenty
four size, and so on.They banked that, could they have banked,
you know, held off this filmanother year and zac Efron gets nominated
in twenty twenty five. Maybe,But if you're a poker player, what
do you go forward? Do youbank the money now or hope that there's
(14:30):
an easier entrance next year, becauseyou never know who's going to come out
of nowhere. But don't think anyonewould have anticipated months ago. Colman Domingo
could have would have broken that,Paul Giamatti's performance in the Holdovers, Jeffrey
Wrights, etc. So I think, yeah, I think they did the
best that they could at the time. It was just disappointing. If only
there was ten spaces. Yeah,I mean, I guess it is kind
(14:54):
of almost poetic given and Kevin VughanEric's sort of legacy in the wrestling world,
and in that he is the brotherthat never quite makes it himself.
Actually, you know, Zach's missedout on a nomination to all these other
actors, and you know, Kevinwas the one that was continually just missing
(15:18):
out on that big title shot orthat big title run and stuff like that,
and you know, it's really interestingto watch. I mean this what
was great about the film, Ithink is if you are a wrestling fan,
there is a lot in there foryou for you to appreciate, But
it also works even if you're nota wrestling fan. At its core,
(15:39):
it is a family drama that happensto be set in the world of wrestling,
But if you're a fan of wrestling, or even if you're not,
there is a lot to get outof it. It's so I like how
it sort of blurs the showcases thereality almost of the wrestling world, and
particularly looking at someone like Kevin VarughanEric who is physically what you would expect
(16:00):
from, you know, a worldheavyweight champion, but that isn't everything.
You need that X factor, Youneed that work. I mean that you
can see there's the great scene wherehe's doing recording the what looks like is
a pro a live promo and thenit's like cut and then it's actually just
being recorded for a show and he'strying to do it and he keeps fluffing
(16:22):
his lines and you know, hisbrother's putting him off and stuff like that,
and it shows you that you know, it is all scripted. You
know they sometimes I guess when you'reout in front of a crowd, you
know, they often sort of say, you know, it's it's basically it's
scripted, but it's not. Andthat you have you know, your key
points you've got to hit. Youknow, you've got to mention you know
the date that you know you're goingto fight someone, what the event is,
(16:44):
and stuff like that, and thenjust run them down and stuff like
that. So you need to havegreat physic you need to have great skill
and technique, but you also needto be good at, you know,
delivering promos and stuff like that,and that's something which one of his brothers,
David von Eric played by Hars Dickinson, is much better at. And
then you've got the sort of dynamic. You know, they work perfectly as
a trio, but they've all gotthis sort of different skills. But then,
(17:04):
you know, as the dad says, you know, he's got this
ranking system and the rankings can alwayschange, and at one point or another,
Kevin just continually gets sort of passedover in favor of one of the
other brothers. But then, youknow, I guess you've got to look
at it that if he was pushedharder, you know, would he have
potentially suffered the same fate as someof his other brothers. Yeah, it's
(17:29):
an interesting one to consider, andit is one of those ones. It's
like that flip of a coin,really, isn't it when at one point
it's being decided between him and oneof his other brothers who takes part in
a fight. And sometimes that's justthe luck of it all, isn't it.
And you know, there are somany moments where you watch the film,
and it's like the sliding doors moment, or if someone didn't get on
a bike at this point, orif someone didn't do this or that,
(17:53):
or you know, someone ran intothe ring and you know did a great
shoot for example. It's amazing howmuch of their family is just crazy little
moments that kind of define them andso on. And yeah, it could
easily have been him that didn't makethe cut, and you know, who
knows what the consequences would have been. Yep. I mean there's that moment
(18:15):
where he sort of sort of takeyou know, just keeps beating Rick Flair
down to a pulp because you know, he's letting out all this frustration and
stuff like that. It wasn't theway that the match was meant to end,
but you know, he gets overin some ways, but then not
in others. And it's interesting tosee, you know, like you say,
a lot of it is down notmaybe necessarily on luck, but it's
(18:37):
all down to you know, thecrowd of the ones that will essentially annoint
you a champion or not. AndI mean you just have to look at
something like the situation at the momentin WWE where Cody Rhodes was winning the
Royal Rumble and was going to challengeRoman Reigns, but then The Rock comes
back and he wants to fight hiscousin for the title of Head of the
(19:00):
Table with WrestleMania, so Cody sortof steps aside. But then within a
week, you know, there's allthis negative fan reaction, and you know,
the Rock is you know, clearlyclever enough to know when something's not
working, and then sort of basicallythen turns heel the WrestleMania kickoff show,
slaps Cody Rose and then sides withhis own family and stuff like this,
(19:22):
and so you know, that's anexample of how a storyline, so it
can change in an instant because youknow of how the crowd reacts, and
it sort of showcases here with thefamily and how certain brothers rise above Kevin
purely based on crowd reaction and stufflike that. Basically, David was the
one that was better on the mic, and that was why, you know,
his dad decided to push him againstRick Flay and the first thing.
(19:47):
But then you know, everyone eventuallysort of gets a shot, and it's
just it's basically how you deal withthe fame and also the stresses because I
mean a lot of the wrestlers talkabout how the fact that basically they would
be on the for three three hundredand fifty days out three Indred sixty five
A. You you might get sortof Christmas off, but you'd be on
(20:07):
the road and it's incredibly grueling onthe body and stuff like that, and
also on the mind, I guessfor many of these wrestlers, And you
can see the physical and mental tollethat it's taken on some of these brothers
across the movie. Yeah, andit did feel like a bit of a
journey. And the one thing,it's one of those ones I almost wish
there was like a three hour versionof this film where it would have been
(20:30):
interesting to kind of see a bitmore of the life on the road,
et cetera. As these performers andso on. It did feel like it
would be quite self contained, oftenwithin sort of kind of Texas and so
on. But again sometimes that comesdown to budget and so on. It
just felt like there was that elementthat was just missing a little bit,
that was a bit more show andtell sometimes these experiences that they were having
(20:52):
on the road, and you wouldsometimes maybe just lose a little bit of
bearing of time, sometimes due toOh, someone's off to Japan and so,
oh oh, we've got there already. I thought it was like three
months ago, and you could geta bit lost with it, and maybe
the film just needed that a littlebit more time just to let that aspect
kind of flourish. I mean,the film was completely fantastic without it,
but would there have been a slightlywould that have made for a slightly even
(21:18):
better film? Potentially so, Butyeah, I think that was just the
one thing that was missing between alot of the tragedies. Yeah, because
yeah, I know what you're sayingabout. Yeah, because they talk about
sort of Dave of Wunna going offto wrestle Rick Flair for the championship in
Japan, and you think, oh, great, well we'll get to see
that, and then we don't.And I guess part of that is down
(21:40):
to the fact that Kevin is themain focal point of the story and because
he never really broke out and left. Because I mean, like the family
seemed to be based their wrestling federationwas based pure mainly in Texas, so
they would go around the sort ofTexas circus, but it was the likes
of the what was NWA at thetime, and WWF were the ones that
(22:03):
were touring sort of nationwide and stufflike that. We had these small,
slightly smaller rural wrestling federations that weredoing that. But yeah, because it
was focused on Kevin, it didseem to contain the story slightly. But
you bring up something there, butyou know what to see a bit more
and I mean, there is alot more to the story, and you
(22:25):
sort of hinted it earlier about thefact that there was an entire brother sort
of who was taken out of themovie and not even referenced. And you
know, Sean dirk and has saidin interviews over the last few months that
for several years that he was writingthe script, the brother was in and
then he was out, and thenhe was back in again, and then
(22:45):
it was just how do you tellthis story? And he basically felt that,
given that so many of the brotherssuffered a similar fate, that it
was just a how do you makethem different enough to warrant telling the same
story? But then at one pointit just becomes so bleak that you know,
(23:07):
it would have been almost impossible topull out of that almost sort of
nosedive that the film is going throughand you know how much I mean,
I mean, it's true this familywent through all of the strategy, but
how much can you realistically show onfilm? And still, I guess keep
the audience with you to the finishline. You know, this is following
a man who is so repressed inhis emotions. You know, they can
(23:32):
only come out, like I guess, when he's alive in the ring.
That's the only time, and that'syou know, when you know he ends
up, you know, sort ofcosting himself basically a match to taking out
on a wrestler, and you know, it almost costs him his marriage and
you know, from seeing his kidsand stuff, because he's unable to process
this. He he thinks that bythem staying with him that they will become
(23:53):
I mean even sort of Yeah,keeps his original name for the kids because
rather than the var Nets, becausehe doesn't want to pass on the curse
to them. He's just obsessive aboutit. And it's you know, it's
it's a fantastic thing to watch,and you really do feel for Zach Effron,
and it's it's you know, it'sit reminded me also of one of
(24:15):
my other favorite sporting movies, whichis Warrior, which also features two sort
of strange brothers fighting and stuff likethat. And yeah, I don't have
a brother myself, but I certainlysort of felt for him during this movie,
and it's certainly connected with a lotof of the male watchers of this
film, with a lot of hashtagmanly tears shed during screenings of this one,
(24:41):
I think, yeah, absolutely,and it's one of tho zones.
I certainly didn't cry myself, butyou know, I was nearly there at
the end and so on, Butit was one of those ones. It
was just testament to Zach Efron's performance. You're just watching this guy go through,
you know, the grind of itall and so on, and you
just your heart breaks for And Ido agree, having kind of read up
(25:02):
on it all afterwards, like whythey cut that additional on Eric thing out,
because it's very much the same,And it's one of those ones where
you know, at the end ofthe day, it's you know, they
said it right at the beginning firstshot of the film, inspired by a
true story and so on, andyou know, at the end of the
day, there's plenty that's been writtenabout this family over the years. There's
documentaries. I'm no doubt going toget around to it this week because I've
(25:27):
never seen that episode. I've onlyever seen a handful. But like you
know, the Dark Side of theRing, et cetera. You know,
there's it's it's out there and soon, and you know it's even just
some of their there's the odd littlebit of liberty about how things happened or
connected, et cetera. But thefilm is it's its own thing, and
it is really true to that storyand experience as best as I can tell
(25:48):
anyway. And yeah, it's there'snothing wrong sometimes without growth going on and
doing your own bit of reading andpicking up on the stories. But I
don't know how they would have fittedin that extra person's story Chris and so
on, and how that would haveconnected without sort of dragging the film and
making it feel a bit longer orwhere the flow would have been for that.
(26:10):
I just think it just it justwouldn't have worked. And so I
mean, if dark and couldn't makeit work, I believe him. Yeah,
No, it's it's almost like likeyou say, it's inspired by true
stories, so you have to takedramatic license, and sometimes you have to
move the timelines around a bit orsort of condense certain people's storylines and the
(26:32):
malgamate characters and stuff like that.But it is almost to the point where,
you know, for those who didn'tknow the story, there's I think
if you'd included that character, theycould have almost got to the point where
they're like, well, this couldn'tpossibly have happened. This family couldn't have
possibly experienced all this, and itmight have almost taken them out of the
(26:52):
film, even though it is true. It comes a point where it is
almost too much, and I think, yeah, like you say, well,
it would have been great to havethe whole story. I think that's
something like a long form documentary thatyou say would have been able to do,
whereas this, which is I meaneven though it's still sort of two
hours telve minutes, so you havea finite window in which to tell the
(27:15):
story. And I think that,yeah, Sean Dirkin did make the right
choices overall. So, I mean, so you see the tragedy, you
see the triumphs, but I meanfor you, I mean, what did
you make of the actual wrestling scenes. I mean, I know that a
lot of people. I think Isee a meme where it was like,
so, I think it was likesomeone sitting back in a chair and then
(27:37):
sitting right up sort of peering towardsthe screen. It was basically all dads
when Rush kicked in during the wrestlingmontage, and it was like, all,
right, here we go, thisis it. What did you make
of that wrestling montage, which basicallyshowed when the moment that the von Eric
brothers sort of came together and they'rerise to the top as as the best
(28:03):
triple tag team in the world atthe time. Yeah, what I really
liked about it was that it wasit played up to the theatrical version of
what these things are like that youwatch it and it's not sitting there thinking
like you can't see the sort ofthe mist hit, the you know,
the kind of they're pulling the punchesand sort of like the you know,
I'm not going to see the fake, but the theatrical version of sort of
(28:26):
how you do these wrestles, Andobviously there was certainly a lot of kind
of blood and sweat that takes placein these things, but you're watching it
going, oh, it's like thattype of wrestling. It's it's a drama.
It's not UFC where people are necessarilylike really pounding each other. And
I really like that as well.I can imagine it would have been easy
to kind of, you know,trying to avoid that perhaps or something like
(28:49):
that. And I watched and Ithought, Oh, that is the genuine
representation of of what it was.It wasn't choreographed to such an extent that
it didn't felt believable. It feltit felt like top end amateur and so
on, which is kind of whatsome of this stuff really was. And
I really liked that year. Ifwe'd saw more perhaps of kind of the
w WUF at the time, thatmight have been been a bit different and
(29:11):
so on. But no, thisfelt like what it was and what people
really get out of these things andso on. It was. Yeah,
it was an art form in itself, which I was really impressed with.
And then and perhaps I didn't expect, Yeah, No, I really really
enjoyed that sequence. I mean,I was briefly taken out of the movie
(29:32):
when Tom Sawer by Rush came onbecause it immediately made me think of the
film I Love You Man and PaulRudder slab of the base when they go
to see the Rush gig. Butit also it reminded me in a way
of I don't know if you watchthis when you were when you were younger,
but the British wrestling that was onon a Saturday afternoon with like Big
(29:55):
Daddy and joining the Haystacks and whatever, it had that kind of few But
I know, it's like the wayit was shot, it looked like you
know, I use the word reallike verticon. It looked like real fighting.
There wasn't the like you say,like the slapping of the legs when
they were kicking and stuff like that, or the ways you didn't notice all
(30:17):
the different ways that they know theyprotect the other wrestler when doing power slams
and superlex's and stuff like that.It looked like, you know, the
flamboyant, over the top fighting stylethat you know people come to see the
gladiatorial contests in the ring and stufflike that. So you know, I
really enjoyed that serience, and itwas nice to see as a wrestling fan
(30:37):
seeing sort of other wrestling characters thatI was aware of, like the Fabulous
Free Birds and the Iron Chic andstuff like that. So yeah, lots
of little nods for the wrestling nerdsout there, but still overall looking good
time. And yes, that wasprobably one of the high points of the
movie from a technical standpoint, butalso I guess for the von Erics as
(30:59):
well. Yeah, it's just it'sone of those ones. It's opened up
a world for me that can't waitto dive into. I mean, on
the as I say, I justthere was a bit where, you know,
we talk about some of the biggestshocks in surprise you ever getting films,
and the bit were like Kerry,despite you know, the injury he
takes on that he made it tothe WWF. I just had the screen
(31:21):
going no way like that just thatwas one of the biggest shots ever.
And you know, I actually hadto google that actually as well, because
I was like, I remember,I was like, but he was in
the w W and I was like, no, but it's like, no,
he could not have been wrestling inthe WWE with a prosthetic foot.
That can't And then agreement, buddyell I did. I mean, yeah,
(31:45):
he did have a short lived run, but the fact that nobody twigged,
I mean, I was just like, I was like, that had
to have been made up for thefilm. They must have added that for
a bit of extra drama, andI was like, oh, that was
true. I mean it's like thatwas one of the too crazy to be
true, but it is true.I never doubt it because I thought there's
no chance with this film and what'sgoing for that they've made up that.
(32:06):
And he gets to the w Wif you're like, oh my god,
I bet that's nailed on. HowI couldn't believe it. And I remember
reading up afterwards that nearly everyone thathe was working alongside did not know that
he had that injury, which wasjust mind blowing. And you know,
for me, when I saw that, You're like, well, that's that's
the pinnacle of this world that theywere working in and so on, and
(32:28):
he made it despite these kind ofobstacles. It was just incredible. Yeah,
I mean yeah at the time,and actually I guess still yeah,
WW was the that was the placethat you wanted to get to. You
want to be the WWE champion,you want to be the whole Coogan or
the Rick Flair of this world.And you know, Kerry managed to get
(32:49):
to the Intercontinental Championship, So youknow, for me, my actually preferred
championship when I was growing up,it was my favorite wrestlers all held that
one. The mister Perfects, therowdy Rodie Pipers, the Brett Harts and
whatever that was. That was theworkhorse championship. That was the one that
you got. And then after awhile you would then lose that type,
but then you would graduate, you'dmove up to the next bit. And
(33:12):
sadly Kerry never managed to break throughto the next level, but still still
an incredible legacy that they they leftbehind. And it was in two thousand
and nine that they were the wholefamily and the whole dynasty was inducted into
the ww Hall of Fame, andI think a rightful tribute to you know,
(33:35):
this family that you know, maybedidn't all make it on the biggest
stage, but clearly left an incrediblemark on the world of wrestling. And
not that type of mark. No, not that type of mark. You
see, you're learning, you learningall the time, yep. And once
you dive into all these documentaries likeBeyond the Mat and yeah, I've seen
a few over the years. Iwatched I think the Chris Benoir one and
(33:58):
it was just a brilliant series,and it feels like you could probably go
on for you know, thirty seasonswith how much of the kind of characters
and and kind of rogues if I'mon even on the generous side, there
are in that world as well.Given the latest of allegations, I'm sure
there's going to be a multi partdocumentary in Vincent Man soon as well.
(34:20):
So yes, but yes, noonto lighter topics. So you know,
now that you've seen this, keento sort of get your sort of them
of where it would sit. Iguess in terms of I guess sort of
sports movies, I mean, wheredoes it sit among your favorite sort of
sports movies? And then I guess, you know, whereabout in terms of
(34:43):
the in the ever increasing wonderful pantheonof A twenty four. It's one of
those ones. I definitely want tosee this one again. I'm really really
keen to catch this one again.I think this one would be in the
top top twenty five or the sortof the top quarter really for me in
terms of A twenty five or films. I just thought every one of the
performances was was fantastic, and youknow, for it's not just the brothers,
(35:06):
you know, The Father was fantastic, even sort of the I thought
that gotten to mention, he's oneof my little favorite actors who pops up,
you know. Obviously he had theMind Hunters series with David Fincher,
which is basically one it is almostlike first sort of leading roles in TV
film whatever. But I remembered himin like so many films like Fight Club
and stuff. Whenever he pops up, you're like, You're always like,
(35:28):
oh, yeah, I like thatguy, that guy and that thing,
and yeah, just I thought thewhole cast was great, and it's it's
one of those ones where I'm reallykeen to watch this one again and I'll,
you know, depending on how thenext few weeks ago, I might
catch this one again and sort ofthe cinemas. I just it was one
of those ones where it's it's somethingI came away and I learned a lot
about something that I didn't know andso on, and you know, it's
(35:51):
made me want to just as say, dive into these you know these people
more and so on. There's justsuch a fascinating story there that I'm genuinely
surprised that got didn't get told beforenow. And you know, when you
even talk about the wrestler, youthink, oh, I'm surprised, you
know a Darren Aronofsky at the timedidn't go for a story like this or
others. And it's just a fascinating, fascinating world and so on, and
(36:12):
it's just one of those ones.I just continue to hope something like this
continues to propel zach Efron forward andfor people to look at him as the
fantastic talent he is. But justa fantastic film. I'd have this in
the top quarter of the of atwenty four films and one I can't wait
to experience again. More about foryourself as the Bourne Heel Wrestler. I
(36:35):
thought it was really really sort ofstrong, really sort of powerful, a
great testament to I think it didwell in portraying wrestling realistically. I think
it didn't sort of sugarcoat the trialsand tribulations of wrestling, but it also
didn't it didn't make a mocker ofit anytime. It was very respectful to
(36:55):
it. So that's what I reallyliked about it. And yeah, the
per film as were fantastic, andyeah, it's one which I will go
and see again. I saw inNew York at the beginning of the year.
But I really do need to takemy dad to it. He got
me into into wrestling all those yearsago, so I feel like we should
go for a father son trip tothe cinema, you know, for a
(37:17):
wrestling movie that is not just featuringDwayne the Rock Johnson in an action role,
but actually is one about wrestling thesedays. And you know, it's
as a wrestling movie, which iscertainly higher quality than anything that say,
like Hulk Cogan has produced over theyears. You know, you know,
there have been some good wrestless turnactors well in certain roles such as Jesse
(37:40):
Venture and Predator and the like,and John Cena and the Abatista have continued
to surprise and yes, so yeah, definitely will be catching it once again
on the road to WrestleMania. Yeah, it's gonna be be interesting. As
I say, I just love that, you know, I have my thoughts
(38:00):
on wrestling, but this felt likeit wasn't something that sneered at the business,
the biz as it were, orsort of mocked it, et cetera.
I think that, and that's oneof the best things that you can
can say about the film, isn'tit. Yeah, no, it was
a fitting testimony to the world ofwrestling, but also to this family that
did so much for the world ofwrestling as well. And yeah, like
(38:23):
you say, I mean hopefully youknow, zach Efrone continues to pursue this
type of role and it might beslightly disheartening for him to have put so
much into a performance like this andthen maybe feel like it hasn't been recognized
like it should. But he's clearlyvery, very talented, and I hope
(38:43):
he continues to rise up the ranksand does more movies like this. So
yes, Zach, stay in theworld of A twenty four. A twenty
four likes you, and yes youshould do more with them. I think
more films like the weird and wackyones that you get with A twenty four
much better than the likes of bayWatch and stuff like that. Hey just
(39:05):
looked like someone like Christian Stuart,you know, who started off in like
the Twilights and whatever. She's goneon to do fantastic things while stepping into
the world of independent film and Atwenty four. Although somebody tried to claim
I saw on Twitter or something theother day about oh I can't wait for
Love Lives Bleating. It's her firstAy twenty four films, and I'm like,
I think I'm finding that that wasactually Equals, starring Nicholas Hope,
(39:25):
that it was released many many yearsago and it is one of the people
to watch Equals. It's good thatwe're raising awareness absolutely, which you can
of course listen to your review ofthat on an earlier podcast. However,
our next episode coming up at theend of the month will be Love Lives
Bleeding, the new film starring withChristian Stewart from Saint Maud director Rose Glass,
(39:46):
and we will be reviewing that afterwe see it at the opening gala
of this year's Glasgow Film Festival.It's been at Sundance, it's heading over
to Berlinal and then we'll catch itin Scotland in a couple of weeks time,
and then we'll be back to reviewthat very very soon. But until
then, we're off to the showersafter a sweaty time in the Squared Circle.
(40:07):
And yes it's been a right royalrumble, but we've enjoyed ourselves.
We'll catch you soon.
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