Season 2 Ep 3 - Sleazy Spader Springtime 6: Easy Sleazy Does It - Doc Paul Crowson & The Music of Chance - The After Movie Diner Podcast

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
So before the aftermovie dinner, somebreaking news that we thought you might want
to know. Actually, well knownjewel thief Lisa lower Burglar and Sarah mclaughland,
heister Carlos the Hyena was caught inParaguay trying to offload a duffle bag
full of fake Tracy Chapmans and avery real and mightily pissed off fo an
apple that he pinched by mistake froman all you can duce fruit and organic

(00:22):
grains party that was happening on arooftop in the furthest Reaches of Queens.
With the authorities hot on his tail. We had heard reports that he had
actually disguised himself as Cheryl Crowe andwas spending a year in Corsica knitting goats
together and trying to offload a bunchof Tory amoses he found lying around behind
some dumpsters at a Kennedy Fried Chickenhole in the wall in Poughkeepsie. Meanwhile,

(00:44):
a previously fenced beth Orton had turnedout to be a pretty convincing forgery,
actually sold at auction for a bucketof wing bits, a greasy biscuit
and some mashed potatoes. Yes,that's right back by popular demand, well

(01:11):
back by a deafening silence that wetook to the ir reasonable demand that you're
all just too polite to make.It's the inevitably nonsensical, yet hopefully enjoyable
after movie Diner, Season two.That's right. The first three hundred and
fifty three episodes were just season onethat is just mad. Like all good

(01:36):
sequels, in season two, youcan expect us to ramp up the action
expletives, gratuitous mentions of James Spader'sinner thigh, and of course the gore.
That's right, We're going to berupturing ear lobes, nastily prodding dangly
viscera, pulling kneecaps off, andsplashing about in the goopy bits. Oh

(02:00):
oh, I'm sorry, I gotcarried away. Come on yourself, Leanna.
In season two, you're put uponand rapidly aging. Host John Cross
is going to attempt to write,shoot, edit, and score an independent
film while talking with his guests aboutthe arduous process and probably a movie or

(02:20):
two for good measure. Oh,I do hope there's a part in this
thing for me, something good,something I can really sink my teeth into,
perhaps with an accent and a funnyhat. I act so much better
in hats. If you enjoy theshow and have pursued the recommended treatment from
your medical providers, why not supportthe show on Patreon over at PA t

(02:46):
R e o N dot com forwardslash Aftermovie Diner. You can also donate
to the show directly at aftermovie Dinerdot com. Rate and review the show
wherever podcasts are found and rating andreviewing is possible. Even a one star
review provides useful insights on exactly thesort of petty minded and wretched individual who

(03:09):
negatively reviews free entertainment they do notneed to be consuming. So, without
further dribbling, please put down yourLennon Meringues, silence your bowels, and
rub two nearby dogs together for theone the only, Thank goodness, because
any more of him and we'd haveto start a call John Cross. No,

(03:32):
no, no, just put itover there. It's about two inches
unless you get it wet. Hi, Hello and welcome to another episode of
the After Movie Dinah and very exciting. Before we get on with this week's
movie conversation, we're very proud andpleased to say that we not only have

(03:53):
an email but also a voicemail.So that is wonderful news because that means
we get to play not one,not one that would be crazy, but
two jingles. Let's let's kick itoff with the first one, shall we?
Here comes? I wonder what hehas found me, because there's something

(04:14):
in his big brown sack. Couldit be well the bills and lacks and
it still brings me some list offeedback on a well, imagine my distinct

(04:36):
lack of surprise, and yet mybounteous amounts of joy were none other than
the Lord Lun himself. Andy Lun, lord of all the Spaders, wrote
to us on this the second episodeof twenty twenty three's Sleazy Spader Springtime.

(04:57):
The only reason I do this seriesanymore for mister Lan. He's a wonderful,
cheeky champie who since we started theSleazy Spader Springtime series has been regaling
us with his stories of both thetimes that he watched the Spader films himself,
as well as other things that arejust happening in his life. And

(05:18):
this email is no exception. Iam such a fan of this man and
his emails that I would continue towatch Spader films long into my twilight if
it meant that he would keep writing, He writes, Dear John, it
was a chilly Saturday morning here inBlighty yesterday, but the time had come
to paint my shed in order thatit could look glamorous through the summer months.

(05:41):
Not an exciting chore by any stretchof the imagination, so I needed
some kind of content to jimmy mealong. Well, let me just stop
you there, Andy. I don'tknow whether it's because I'm getting older,
grayer than Steve Martin's nutsack, orif it's just because I myself am now
the proud owner of three sheds,but painting a shed, even on a

(06:01):
chilly Saturday morning, I don't knowthat sounds glorious to me. But anyway,
he continues, I was therefore overthe moon when upon opening the iPod,
I found that a Sleazy Spade,a springtime episode, had dropped just
in time for the occasion, Areal delight that my ear holes had been
crying out for. I'm lost forwords to discover that my enjoyment of your

(06:26):
discussions on the movies of this curiousspecimen of a human being is a major
reason as to why you have embarkedupon this again, I cannot thank you
enough. Crash is a favorite ofmine, and the drawer here other than
something of a Rosanna Arquette obsession thatstarted in the early nineteen nineties, and
who can blame him is, ofcourse the amazing Spader Man. As you
covered on the show. He ispossibly the only person who could make the

(06:50):
not particularly sleazy elements of the charactereven more filthy than the obvious sex scenes.
He has a mind which reveals itselfthrough particular expression and facial ticks,
and it's always a joy to watchyou were writing what you were saying,
though, discussing Crash and reflecting uponit afterwards actually becomes more interesting than the
movie itself. I have the filmon four K and it looks fantastic,

(07:13):
as does the aforementioned Rosanna. Oddly, letter Box tells me that it's pretty
much a year since my last viewing, and so I popped it on last
night and it does not disappoint.I actually found it quite a bit more
amusing than I had in the past. I'm not sure what that says about
me, anyhow. Once again,thank you for such an entertaining episode.
I haven't even mentioned all the precrash talk, which was also a wonderful

(07:35):
listen. All the best to you, Kim, and I leave you with
this little photo of me listening tothe show whilst painting my shed. Please
note, I can assure you thatthe white residue on my jeans is glass
paint from a previous spot of DIYand nothing untoward. Lun Well, this
is you know, This is whyI do this, This is why I

(07:58):
have started back up the podcast.It is for people like the Lunster.
It is for the Andy Lunds ofthe world who not only you know,
obviously love the show and listen,especially to the sleazy Spade of Springtime episodes,
but do so while painting a shedand then send me a photograph of
it. That to me is sheerunbridled joy and with everything going on in

(08:26):
the world, flex of paint oryou know, residue from a horny evening
with a picture of Rosanna Arquette notwithstandinga photograph of Lundon is shed is just
enough to put a smile on anybody'sface. But thank you ever so much,
Andy. That was a real pleasureand I do hope we'll get at
least one more email from you.Before the season is out. Boys Mailoe

(08:54):
mail everybody the boys Si a voicesmell. Would everybody leaves get out?
Voice smile voice smail. Please everybodyleaves versible voice smells a voice smell voice
smeil. Now everybody leaves, getout. Jeff your loiterer? Hello?

(09:22):
Hello? Is this the after dinnerDispensary? Hi? Hi, my name
is Madge. I'm calling because Iwant to get some gummies for my wife
with me. You know, wewant to get high, but we don't
want to get too crazy. Youknow, it was seventy years old.
We don't need to get crazy withit and everything. But we just heard
about these gummies. It sounds likea good thing. I mean, you
kids, You kids don't know howlucky you have it. When I was

(09:43):
your age, I had to getmy grass from a squat Filipino bodybuilder named
Gunta. One time he gave mestuff lace with angel dust. I was
so high I woke up in FarmerBrown's chicken coop. He called the cops
on me, and I don't blamehim, you know, I mean his
chickens. They just want to relaxthem lay the egg and they don't need
some guy bothering them because he's highor whatever. Anyway, I'm sorry I'm
taking up too much of your time. I'll call you back during your hours

(10:07):
of business. All right, goodgood day to you, sir. Hello,
welcome back to the aftermovie Diner.There is something I have to do
every time now. I have totake my phone off the desk so it
doesn't vibrate. I have to takemy Apple Watch off because she likes to
chime in, like every time Isay anything. There we go. Every

(10:28):
time I say anything, she likecrops up and is like, I'm sorry,
I don't know what you mean byflaccid penis. You know, yes,
yes you do, Marjorie. Um. So yeah, I have to
throw her across the room because she'sa waste of time. Um but I'm
already. I have what I believeto be James Spader's snack of choice,

(10:56):
which is mister Kipling's jam tarts.I hear that he that Spader loves a
Jammie tart pepper romie as well.He loves he loves a spicy pepper ARMI
talked between two Jammy tarts. Sowonderful to welcome back onto the show.

(11:22):
It's doctor Paul Crowson, my oldcohort in the Doctor Action kick Ass Kid
Show, which by the way,randomly got four hundred downloads the other day,
so people are still listening to DoctorAction. I know he's crazy,
right, yeah, just out ofnowhere. But yeah, no, I
was checking because you know I've donethese. We're now on the second season
the After Movie Dinner. We didthree hundred and fifty three episodes. Was

(11:45):
a long seasons, it was,but the first season is always the hardest.
The first season is when they're establishingthe characters, figuring out the routine.
The second season is when it hitsits strike. I think that's what
I like. One character has gotto die. Yeah, I'm assuming that
is what I'm doing back. No, well, well, no, I
mean, if anything, so farin the second season, it's Jim Wallace,

(12:09):
who has been conspicuous by his absence. So it's like I've killed off
my co host. Well, Ican't see him anywhere in the background.
No, no. So the thingis is, Jim Wallace will appear in
the second season After Movie Dinner,but it will only be once I get
my butt to New York. Canwe do something in person? He likes
the in person shows. He isnot a fan of the Skype shows.

(12:31):
So, but it is what itis. I live out in the countryside
now it is what it is.Skype is. At least it's better to
have shows than wait for the youknow, once every four months that I
go in the city and speak toJim shows that would that wouldn't be much
of a second season. I'm tryingto do these once a week. Pot
That's what I'm trying to do.So and the theme of the second series,

(12:54):
along with obviously films, film reviews, Sleazy Spaders Springtime and all the
good things. Ah wait, SleazySpider Springtime. Welcome to the show.
I went a Sleazy Spiders Springtime.I want you want to know that if
you please, let's James Spadas Liasand it's got nowhere else to go.

(13:16):
So listen to your blouses give youknow is a damn good blood. When
resist the earl's to flee because afterrole, it's two cousinds and twenty dreams.
Sleazy spide Us spring Time showe oh, it is two thousand and twenty

(13:41):
rooms see spide Us Time Shine isJohn Cross is making a movie. That's
right, doc I am making amovie. I am writing it as we

(14:05):
speak. I'm halfway through the secondact, about forty pages. In last
episode, I was thirty pages in, and so there's not much of an
update this week to me making.But I'm still writing it. I'm still
excited about it. I still knowwho the killer is because it's a detective
story or or but what I like. I like a good detective me.

(14:31):
But I think that that we'll beable to talk through today's episode, today's
film the Music of Chance, andtalk a little bit about structure, because
it's a film that doesn't really haveany right music of chances. Just like
he's like a dream, there's nohe's very nineties. Yeah, it's very

(14:52):
nineties, very stream of consciousness.And so when I put it to you,
I said, like, I'm doingSleazy Spader springtime. Do you want
to come back? And I gaveyou some options. I could have sworn
you We're going to jump all overStargate because of the Spader Russell action sci
fi, but no, you werelike, how about we do the Music

(15:13):
of Chance? And the funny thingabout it is that this last, because
this will be the last Sleazy Spader, you know, we're doing Crash,
I'm doing Stargate with John Wallace next, and I'll probably round out the season
with Secretary. So the idea wasto do like the big ones, let's
go out. It's the sixth SleazySpader Springtime. There's literally only a handful

(15:33):
of Spader films that we haven't covered, and they're not particularly great ones.
So it was like, I putthe list out there and you came back
with Music of Chance, So youtell me this is the outlier. It's
not one of Spaders like big,well known ones. It's a rare nineties

(15:54):
I hasten to call it a gem, but it's a gem in its own
way. It's certainly a Spader jem. I feel like, yeah, it
is. It is a gem.It's a gem for Spader, That's what
I feel. It's definitely a gemfor Spader, definitely, because he gets
to act. He seems like he'sbeing into the performance. Not to say
that James Spader can't act. Hecan't act, but you know, when

(16:15):
you see him playing the Sleazy shipBag, you sort of go. Don't
seem like it's a stretch. It'snot a stretch for old Spec and I
don't get me wrong. There isstill plenty of sleeves to be had in
this performance. But U and we'llget into it. But I feel like
that has to be sleeves there forSpader to be in it. I'm sorry,

(16:37):
I just don't think he turns up. He wouldn't show up. No,
I think the sleeves in this one, like we'll get into the planet
in a minute. But like theprostitute scene, which has no bearing on
the rest of the film out,yes, I can only assume that Spader
was like, I'm not doing thisfilm unless I get to sleep with one

(17:03):
person. Uh. He was like, I've had you can almost pictures.
I've had this idea from scene witha prostitute, and the director and the
writer and everyone just went, Itold you this would happen. Guys.
Yeah, if you're kind a higherSpader, he can't. He can't go

(17:26):
three months without smelling vagina juice.And it's funny because otherwise it would be
an all male film. It wouldbe a male driven um almost the plot
doesn't bear any similarity, but butbut almost like a very reservoir dogsy thing

(17:47):
like all men. Lots of talking, uh, you know, abstract plot
completely different to Reservoir Dogs, butit has that similarity and it has Chris
Penn in it for a again avery random cameo U as m Emmett Walsh's
son. It's got a really reallystrong cast, especially for the nineties.

(18:11):
The only guy I don't know,he's one of the millionaire guys Joel Gray.
Joel Gray. So he's a Broadwayactor who is primarily known for big
musicals and things on Broadway back inthe seventies. However, he occasionally has
had he has a very controversial role. He has a very Mickey Rooney style
role in the Remo Williams movie,The Fred Ward Action Movie, in which

(18:37):
in which he plays an Asian gentlemanwhere it's not it's not quite as offensive
a stereotype as Mickey Rooney's, butit's it's still very offensive. It's still
yellow face. Consider that James Hongwas a randy and what the fault?
Yes, exactly, exactly no,But that's a good point, like when

(19:02):
you consider the fact that if youneed an Asian stereotype in an action movie
in the eighties or nineties, you'vegot, you know, any number of
actors you could have gone to thefact that they made up Joel Grader looked
like an Asian gentleman is a bitridiculous. But yes, so, um,
that's his most controversial. But hewas in an episode of Buffy's.
He's done sort of some stuff becauseI'm assuming he's like he was well known

(19:27):
anyway. Yes, he's a wellknown New York uh kind of theatrical set
kind of actor. Yeah. Yeah, I mean the only other guy that
you don't I've never seen before isthe guy in the car at the end.
But that is the guy who wrotethe novel it is, Yes,
yeah, Pauluster, is it?Paul Paul Lobster barely touched her, Paul

(19:48):
Auster. Yeah. And and soJoel Gray, Yes, probably known best
for cabaret in the seventies. Hewas, But he's done, he's done
a a turna you know, he'sbeen in seventy six filmed things between TV
and film. So we're talking BobbyDavreaux level of Yes, we're talking.

(20:15):
Yeah, we're definitely talking Bobby Davreauxkind of National Treasure kind of level of
fame. Okay, I'm glad I'mthere. Yes, but no, he's
Yeah, he's known the rest ofthe cast is rounded out by where you've
got Spader and Mandy Petenken as themain duo, a very kind of waiting

(20:37):
for Godo kind of duo, becauseit's sort of this it's meant to be,
the sort of back and forth betweenthe two lead players. In fact,
when I was reviewing it, thething that struck me is it's sort
of a bit like the dynamic inWithnell and I. Sort of I was
thinking that earlier. When I wasthinking about it, it was kind of
like it's with an Ell and I. If you just if it just met

(21:02):
and when a road trip straight theway, Yes, there's some very different
characters. If with Thell and Iif with Dell was excessively sleazy, mustachioed
card shark, Yes, and uhfrom with a New York accent. James

(21:23):
Spader's New York accent, to befair, sounds like a teenager in a
school production of Good Fellows trying todo like a a New York good accent,
you know what I mean, Likeit's all over the shop, but
ever so often his accent, hisreal accent, creeps in, but no
real there's accents in New York andwhat James Spade is doing is the it's

(21:48):
all of it. It's it's whati'd do if I went over and went
what does New York sound like?I was like, ah, you're thorn
exactly. Yeah, it's what wewere doing when we were walking around like
little Italy. Yeah, when youand I were walking around, were like,
it's for gazy. So yeah,he's kind of he's kind of doing

(22:10):
like that New York accent, likekind of a little bit the near role,
a little bit the walk, andit's kind of all over the place
like he's kind of doing that,and it's hilarious because it does. It
sounds exactly like a teenage, likea teenager being asked to be like a
heavy in a gangster play in ahigh school. That's what he's trying to
do. And it's it's absolutely hilariousbecause there's no need for it, like

(22:33):
there's no him being like the fact. Also it's it's ridiculous like him being
a card shark from New York,Like, yes, of course people gambled
in New York and whatever, butit's not the gambling town. Like the
gambling town is Atlantic City in NewJersey, Like that's where that's really where
he would be primarily focused on.And the you know, the film is

(22:56):
shot in North Carolina. There aresome seen shot in New York, but
the film is shot in North Carolina. But I presume is meant to be
set like it's either set in upstateNew York or it's set in Connecticut,
Like that's the only place that ahouse like that with that kind of land

(23:17):
would exist, would would really bein Connecticut or New York. But it's
actually, yeah, it's shot downin North Carolina. Then we have mmtt
Walsh, who's you know, thewhole film has like a Southern field because
you've got him and Charles Durning,both of whom are you know people will
know from Cohen Brothers films. Yeah, and their southern portrayal of a Southern

(23:41):
gentleman, portly Southern gentleman, let'sjust say. And they don't change much
in this movie either. It's notlike either of them attempt to Connecticut accents.
Yeah. Yeah, well she's neverbeen like, I'm a big fan
of Shakespeare. Yeah on There inthe Park, Yeah he's not. M

(24:04):
Walsh is like, yeah, I'mnot changing my accent, my hangdoy expression,
my general air of confusion, likeI'm just gonna be mm at Walsh,
but you love him for being mmmmm at Walsh. And he's always
been in Wash. Yeah, it'snever been anybody else. He's like climate
chryogenically frozen. Every time he's beenin a film, it's like putting him
back in the freezer. We don'twant to out do him. No,

(24:27):
and he was in what was hein? Recently he both hasn't aged and
has aged like he aged when hewas thirty and then hasn't aged. He's
like the reverse of Paul Rudd,Like Paul Rudd hasn't aged yet, but
you feel like Paul Rudd will getto like sixty five and then suddenly like
boom age. Right. Yeah,mm at Walsh I think was thirty and

(24:51):
like aged and then stayed. Yeah. I think he was probably bitten by
Wilfred Brimley. Yes, that's whathappened. Yeah, Knives Out was probably
then. The last time I sawhim. He played mister proof Frock in
Knives Out and again doesn't look anydifferent looks in this movie, never changed,

(25:14):
still acting today as well. Andwhat's incredible about mm at Walsh is
he's actually only sixty two. That'swhat's incredible about He's not actually he's um
was born in nineteen thirty five,so he's in his eighties. He's coming
up to be he'll be ninety intwo years. Yeah jesus. And you

(25:37):
just thought of you paid off hisfucking mortgage by now. Yeah, yeah
you would. But what you don'tunderstand is he has a debilitating crack at
it. He looks so old.Yeah, but no, he's in it.
He's fantastic. And so there's reallynot a bad performance in the whole
film. No, And if anyoneis out of place, it's it's funny

(26:00):
if anyone if anything doesn't quite workfor me, it's Pretenken and Spader together.
What I kind of said in myreview was this is like in with
Nan and I to use that askind of a common example. I mean
realistic with Music of Chance was ninetyninety three. Yes, realistically he's only

(26:26):
like what seven eight years after withNail, so it probably was a bit
of an inspiration for it anyway.Yeah, I mean it's it's so there's
lots of inspirations to go into this. And I think because I was ragging
my brains because the director of thismovie. Um almost solely directed documentaries until
he directed this movie, and certainlywasn't like a hot young thing in Hollywood

(26:52):
or anything. It wasn't like,you know, I sort of thought to
myself, I was like, well, in the early nineties, when the
indie boom was a sploding Stephen Soderbergand Richard Linklater and Tarantino and Kevin Smith,
was it just that any new directorthat came along could get a cast
together because that cast was thinking,well, shit, this guy could be

(27:12):
the next Robert Rodriguez, So thisguy could be the next Tarantino. And
the script certainly has that. Certainlyin Spader's dialogue has that quick patter,
kind of colloquial writing that could becompared to Tarantino. Yeah, it does
feel like James Spader looks like he'staking that shot to be in night sort

(27:37):
of this is my this is howI'd probably get into a Tarantino right,
sadly ended up only making two Daysin the Valley, right, which is
a pump fiction repper. Right.Yeah, yeah, but he does look
like he does look like he belongsin the Tarantino movie. Well, he
ended up in a Rodriguez movie.Isn't he in one of the Spike Kids
movies or not Spike Kids, No, the one he made after My Kids.

(28:00):
It's another kids movie, but heplays Spader plays a villain in one
of Rodriguez's like weird movies he madefor his kid thing. Ye might be
shorts, is it or something likeyeah, shorts or something like that.
Yeah, shorts. He plays misterBlack in Shorts. Yeah, but yeah
so um so. Similarly so inwith Then and I like the genius of

(28:26):
that casting is that while Richard E. Grant certainly has the showyer part,
it doesn't work if you don't havethe right guy. And Paul McGann in
Eye and mar Wood, the Eyecharacter is written in such a way that
while no, he's not as verbalas with Now, he has his own

(28:48):
character. He has his own interests, He has his own um neuroses and
anxieties in this one, you know, similar to Namic. One's a talker,
one's not kind of thing. ButI just didn't feel like Potenka really
had a character he could hang on, you know what I mean? Yeah.

(29:11):
I think that's probably because more that'shis character is he's searching for himself,
so he's got no character. Ithink he's all about him finding himself
while he's on the road, andthis is just sort of like his journey
through life. It's it's the thingsthat because it I think it's that his
wife's left him or something. Yeah, and his daughters living with his sister

(29:33):
at the time or something. Yeah. And his estranged father, who he
hasn't seen since he was a child, left him two hundred thousand dollars.
So he's just sort of gone outto sort of find himself. Yeah.
I mean, realistically, if itwas very much like a seventies film made
in the nineties, Yes, thissort of you know, going off to

(29:56):
find yourself, and it feels like, you know, whatever he does,
he just sort of gets trapped inthe traps. Should just get in life
anyway. Yeah, and there andthere are plenty of seventies movies where you
know, nothing much happens, butthe reason why you're enjoying watching it is
the performance of the two leads.Yeah. And you know, obviously I

(30:18):
like Mandy Petenkin, and he's certainlyhe's certainly a soulful enough actor to be
able to portray someone who, likeyou say, is kind of searching with
themselves as a bit last or whatever. Yeah, I think where it gets
difficult is that and with the bestone in the world, Mandy Potenkin,
is at his best when he canbe sort of overly dramatic, right,

(30:40):
whether whether that's this is right,And he is, you know, in
a very theatrical way. Not ina bad way, but in a theatrical
way. And I know what Imean by that. He's an overactor in
the sense that he has more ofa theater way of doing things than a
film way of doing things. Andtherefore, when he does like crying or

(31:03):
anguish or angst or whatever in hisother film roles or in his other TV
roles, there's a lot of likechest thumping and you know, it's very
dramatic and armed movements and whatever,and in this he can't really do that
because there isn't really an emotional feellike he's got an emotional bone in him

(31:25):
in the whole film, really,right, frustration of Yeah, the only
time you seem really sort of getemotional is when James Spade is in the
in the field, right and hehad the shit kicked out of him.
Yeah, he's sort of That's theonly time you sort of think, oh,
he actually cares about something. Hetalks about his daughter and you sort

(31:48):
of go, yeah, And theonly other thing he talks about is his
car. That sort of cares aboutit. So are you're a proper bloke?
Well the car, well, thecar represents his his search, his
travel, his Yeah, and butthen again it's so anyway. Um.
That was my only thing was thedouble act didn't work as well as it

(32:12):
could have done because I felt likePotenkon was sort of a little constrained because
of the way it was written.Yeah, and Spader is so like over
the top and you know, limbsflailing and val sounds going all over the
place and funny costumes and you know, he's so muppet like in this He's

(32:37):
like a muppet like his limbs areall spindling and his hands all crazy,
and he's very different performance from JamesSpader. It really is. And it's
it's one of the reasons why Iwould say, like, if that central
performance wasn't in this film, Iwouldn't recommend it to anyone. But with
that central performance, I feel like, but I also feel like that like

(32:59):
Potenking then is has decided Well,I can't. I can't meet Spader halfway
because I either go full all overthe top like Spader is, and then
that's going to break the dynamic.Yeah, I can't go halfway because I'm
Mandy Pretenkin. I don't know howto go halfway. So I'm just going
to subdue everything. And I thinkthat's where it fails a little for me.

(33:22):
But let's go. Let's go throughthe plots of the people, kind
of out such as it is,if you want to give it a rundown,
and then we then we can diveback into kind of talking about what
we liked and stuff. Okay.So also I want to eat my jam
tart. Okay. So it isit James Nash or is it John Nash?
I can't remember his name now,Yeah, I think it's Jim Nash.

(33:45):
I think Jim Nash. Jim Nashis, like I say, he's
strange from his wife. He's beengiven a two hundred thousand patch two hundred
thousand dollars check from his dad inhis way in the will, so he's
gone off to find himself and justdriving down the freeway in his red BMW.

(34:06):
He happens upon beating up James Spaderas you do the most ridiculous light
blue seventy suit coming in blood.Yeah. Yeah, so he picks him
up. It's sort of it's abit like Thunderbolt and Lightfoot. You've just
sort of got that big open scenery, the talk to each other. He

(34:28):
James Spader tells many pretenking that he'sa gambler. What trouble is? He
ad, So I forget all theINDs and outs because it sounds like just
a stubberish Yeah. Essentially that hewas gambling with a group of people and

(34:52):
that like a fight broke out forthe money, and you know, he
would have all this money if itwasn't for the fact that you know,
he had to duck out from beingbeaten more than he was kind of thing
because he was already bloody and stuff. But he was like, you know,
I had to get out of therebecause the ship was going down or
whatever. But it was to dowith gambling. He was up, he

(35:13):
made lots of money, but thendidn't have any with him because he was
screwed over by the guy he wasgambling with and the fight broke out,
and you know the usual. Itjust sounded like a tall Tale. So
I was like, whatever, spades, let's move on. Yeah. I
didn't remember every beat of it,but right. So James Spader tells Mandy
thinking that he was on his wayto this card game. Where's these these

(35:37):
two rich dudes, Charles Dwning andJoel Gray. It's a ten thousand dollars
buying and he can basically he's onsuch a good role that he definitely knows
that he can take him for allhis worth. But he's got no money.
Yeah, so he proves to Mandy'spre tinking that he can play poker.

(35:59):
So money pertak in office to stakehim for the game. They go
there. The two dudes are weirda shit. Yeah, you get shown
around the house and they are Ithink they won the lottery something. Yeah,
they won the lottery. In everyinvestment they've made sense has uh you

(36:22):
know, netted them even more money. So they're sort of wealthy beyond the
beyond that they know what to dowith it, and that's white dude.
Yeah, and that Spader has playedthem previously in a game and rinse them
for some of their money, andthat comes to play because they say,
well, we've taken lessons now andit's not going to be so easy.

(36:44):
But then they're showing around the houseand Joel Gray has this huge like model
city of the World. City ofthe World, he calls it, but
it's really just a city of it'sjust really the property they own. Yeah,
yeah, it's it's how he seesa perfect world and he's sort of
like the god looking down over everything. Yeah. Um, so they have

(37:09):
the game again a scene that doesn'treally mean or play into anything, but
yeah, yeah, it's just kindof setting up that they will be overseeing
him from right, but they're reallyonly in the one scene. And then
yeah, they don't. They don'tshow up again do that but no,
but their presence is meant to befelt the rest of the film. Yeah,

(37:31):
you're meant to think that they're alwayswatching somehow. You don't know how,
but they're always watching or through mmat wash. Yeah, it's very
strange. And yes, so theylose out. They lose big time,
and Mandy p Tenkin says to themthat they can do the odd job because

(37:54):
they've they've shipped over a was ita castle from Yeah, so they they
lose the initial ten grand buy in. Yeah, they then lose another ten
grand and Mandy Potenkion's car. Spaderblames Mandy Potenki because Mandy Potenkion goes walking

(38:15):
through the house during the middle ofthe poker game and steals the little figures
of um Flower and Stone, JoeGray and Charles Durning's character from the City
of the World thing. He thinks, that's bad juju and that's what's caused
them to lose um. But yeah, they're in They're in a big hole.

(38:38):
They have no way to pay itout. And the old gentleman propose,
where we have this fifteenth century Spanishstone that comes from a castle that
they purchased somewhere. Who is itisland? Is it island or spa?

(39:00):
It's is an island. Yeah,And to be honest, it doesn't matter,
it doesn't matter at all. Butthey purchased something, they had it
shipped over. It's all just stone. They want to build a wall for
no reason in the middle of ameadow that they own on there's property.
And they say, if you,if we pay you. The math is,

(39:22):
if they pay you ten dollars anhour when you work ten hours a
day between the two of you,that would be fifty two hundred dollars a
day, which would take fifty daysto pay off what you owe us.
Right, yeah, so you know, Spaders like madness, I don't know

(39:44):
potentions, like what else are yougoing to do? Like you go like
we've got no car, Like yeah, you know, you've got no money,
Like there's no way you can go, Like why don't we just do
this because it's a month and ahalf and you know, and then we're
we're good to go, right,So Spader's all ready to leave and then
looks of Potenkin, who said he'sgoing to do it anyway, like Tenkan's

(40:05):
like I'll do it then you youknow, you go and I'll just work
because what else have I got going? And Spader goes, you know,
are you be half dead if itwasn't for me. I got to help
you out kind of thing. Yeahyeah, yeah. So they agree to
do it. They're given a littletrailer house, you know, up on
bricks in the corner of this fieldwhere they can live. They're told that

(40:27):
they will be given all the provisionsthat they want as part of this agreement,
and that they are told that therewill be paid this amount and so
on and so forth, and whathappens is they kind of you know,
and we can get into specific later, but they get to the end of
the fifty days and they're like,well, okay, we've paid off the

(40:49):
debt, but we don't have anymoney, yeah, to get away from
it, to get away from it, so like, why don't we stay
a bit longer and earn more money? And then two things happened, back
to back mm at Walsh, whohas been their their kind of guide,
their guards this whole time, theirkind of mind. Yeah, they go

(41:09):
between the mind of the whole time. He shows up the day after they
celebrate that they've come to the endof their fifty days and says, well,
actually, you still have thirty sixhundred dollars because of all the food
you ate, and he's like,no, no, no, that was

(41:30):
included. We shook on it,you know, we shook on it.
And he's like, right, butthe original contract you signed didn't make any
mention of food, so you know, they want another thirty six One of
those things that life always fucking throwsat you right just as you think you're
Yeah. But the whole film isbasically about hitting a road. But the

(41:51):
road is one that's you've made yourselfright, which is what it's basically bad.
Every time they think they were ahead, Yeah, I mean will she'll
come along and say no, no, no, because we didn't think about
the cigarettes you were going to havein rights. He seems like the because

(42:14):
at one point you think to themyourselves, they're going to stay and they're
going to really create a wall anddo well for themselves. And then five
minutes later it is James Spade islike, what the fuck? Yeah,
So the moment Spader wakes up fromhis prostitute induced coma, he he says,
fuck, they're saying doing this,Um, I'm escaping. They go

(42:37):
to you know, the we're tobelieve that the house has a big fence
around it, and they dig ahole under the fence and Spader escapes,
only from pretending to wake up thenext morning and find him blooded and beaten
in the field. Um where MMWalsh and his son played randomly by Chris

(43:00):
Penn show up and take Spade ata hospital. Will not let Potenking go
with them? The assumption the hospitaleither, Yeah, I won't let him
wring the hospital either. So theassumption is that Spader is dead Potenking finishes
the wall. MMT. Walsh andhis son Chris Penn go out for drinks.

(43:23):
Chris Penn offers Manny Potenkin Tibet ona game of pool. Pretenking wins,
wins about fifty bucks in this gameof pool, and as Chris Penn
goes to give it to him,he says, keep the fifty bucks,
but let me drive my car home. I really missed driving my car.

(43:43):
And on the way home, hespeeds up, speeds up, speeds up,
crashes, presumably either killing or injuringor putting into a coma MMT.
Walsh and his son. He isthen left blooded and beaten, straggles out
onto the road, only to bethen picked up by yet another stranger,
and the whole thing starts again,one assumes, and that stranger is played

(44:07):
by the the author of the book, Paul Auster, who I don't know.
He's not like a name, youknow, like a M. Stephen
King or whatever, like some kindof famous author or even a James Patterson
or something, but apparently looking intohim, he was something certainly within the

(44:29):
trendy set, trendy New York set. He was something of a cherished fan
favorite author and a and a bitof a staffucker as well, I think,
And well, the book The Musicof Chance's original book was released by
Favor and Favor, So you know, he was pretty mister fancy punts.
Yeah, he was fancy Schmantz andhe was with he was he had friends.

(44:52):
I think in one of the articlesI read about him, it was
like, you know, he kneweverybody from So and Soda, Louis or
whatever. Like he was he justlike hung out in New York. He
was one of those New York authorshad a lot of and that listen,
the cast may have come on boardbecause of him, Like if anyone is
famous outside of the cast in thisit's the author. I just think he

(45:15):
was probably a very niche New Yorkkind of hipster author that we wouldn't have
heard of in the UK back then, but was well known over here,
and that may have also attracted thecast. And he said so interestingly,
he said that the idea of thebook came from the idea of fairy tales,

(45:37):
where you were told something like,you know, a young girl lives
at the edge of the wood withher aging grandmother, right that, like
fairy tales start something like that.They don't explain what the girl looks like,
they don't explain what the house lookslike. They don't explain what the
grandmother looks like, or what they'redoing on the edge of the wood.
But just that sentence alone, whenyou're a kid or even as an adult,

(46:00):
your imagination goes, I know whatthat house looks like. I know
what the young girl looks like.I know what the grandmother looks like.
You know, you fill in allthe blanks, right, So he wanted
to write a book and indeed ahelp on the screenplay where your brain kind
of filled in the blanks. Yeah, that's harder to do with a movie

(46:22):
because you're obviously like watching it.But I think, and I think this
is where I think I get alittle also a little frustrated with it,
is that if there was any opportunityfor us to fill in the blanks in
that regard, it would be witheither Spader's past or Pretenkin's past. And

(46:43):
spadersn't really talked about his past outsideof the car James's one, but Potenkin
kind of hints it has past alot, right, fireman in Boston and
taking this road trip and strange fatherand blah blah blah blah blah. And
sure, okay, you can probablylike put a face to some of those
stories or put an image to someof those stories. But a little more
of that, like I said,a little bit bit more of back and

(47:06):
forth between the two of them wouldhave would have maybe led that led that
air more to the to the screenplay. The other inspiration is, as I
said before, those kind of twohander plays like Waiting for Gotto and and
other things like that, where it'sabout the journey, not the destination,
or it's about the story and notthe not the conclusion. Right. So,

(47:30):
um, that's why I put myphone down there because I'm always getting
scam calls. Um. So that'sthe general outline. It's a very stream
of consciousness, um secular Like yousay, Um, you know, a
decision in life can set especially wheremoney is concerned, can set you down

(47:52):
a path that you never quite recoverfrom and pushes you into other experiences.
Um, like you say, therewas something of that. You know.
Are the Charles Darning and Joel Graycharacters? Are they representations of the fat
cap businessmen? Are they representation oflike god entities or or you know,

(48:15):
all powerful. Whatever is it thefact that currently the one percent does control
what they are doing because we allhave to earn money and pay for our
homes and whatever. So I mean, you know, there's there's metaphors and
stuff you can find in there,but I more more relevant to day than

(48:37):
any time probably, yeah, Butbut I have to say it like,
it doesn't make the movie anymore compellingto think of it like that. I
prefer to think of it as aa theatrical style two hander made at a
time when indie movies were sort ofreplicating that kind of seventies yeah feel,

(49:05):
but with a more pop culture betlike like Reservoir Dogs and Robert Rodriguez and
even Richard Link later. They're definitely, yes, they're like seventies filmmakers in
the sense that they, like Scorseseand Spielberg before them, were like students
of cinema first and foremost, andtherefore the movies they made represented cinematic cinematic

(49:28):
language. But the nineties versions aremore pop culture than the seventies. The
seventies versions are more philosophical, psychological, yeah, emotional. The nineties versions
are all that as well, butthey're they're sort of filtered through this slightly

(49:50):
larger than life kind of pop culturecharacters. Yeah, because because there's no
two ways about it, in thenineties, the added better than the add
in the seventies, So this sortof rssive, right, But it's also
like the like the like the sixtiesand seventies would be the come down after
the you know, capitalists playful fiftiesin early sixties. You know, I

(50:14):
always make this comparison between the eightiesand the fifties because the fifties is the
first time that music has made forteenagers. It's the first time films are
made for teenagers. It's the firsttime that society gets around the idea of
a youthful society, a wealthy society, a capitalist society, and a boom

(50:35):
of some sort. You know,America is practically the only country that fought
in World War Two that has aboom after World War Two rather than rather
than a full financial collapse. Sothey were America is sort of like boo
game. Yeah. So when wesay that America's wore profiteers, I mean

(51:00):
potentially, uh, you know,and then there's the whole brain drain,
where like America was secretly siphoning offvery um influential and intelligent Germans and Italians
and Russians and so on to gowork in America on the space race.
And you know there was all thatkind of stuff as well. So like

(51:21):
America just went, yeah, Iknow, I know, we just defeated
fascism, But how about we cherrypick everything we want and then fuck off
got to work somewhere right right.Oh, the Nazis stole a bunch of
art and gold. You say,oh, I wonder if I wonder what?
Oh that went missing? Oh Iwent missing? You say, no

(51:42):
anyway, but no, And similarly, the nineties, while you're quite right,
they're not um, they're not adownturn to the extent that the seventies
was. They do follow the eighties, which again is sort of the next
decade that is teen folks, blockbusterfocused. You know, I always think,

(52:04):
if you say Coca cola, whatare the two decades you think of?
You think of the fifties and theeighties, Like, yeah, it's
that Americana Coca Cola thing, right, It's just pervades those two decades.
And yeah, so the early nineties, it's like, all right, guys,
we gave you all the toys andeverything, but how about we start
telling some um, some more inwardstories again? And this is part of

(52:30):
that. It's I think if anythinglets this down, it's it's I just
don't find Philip pars an interesting director. I just think in another director's hands
this would have looked and felt alot better. Yeah, I agree,
I definitely agree. And I alsothink once is it starts off as a

(52:53):
two handoff, but it sort offinishes off where he thinks, yourself that
James Spader is just sort of likea glorified co star, right. He
doesn't actually offer that much to itin terms of his story, what he's
been about, And there's certain bits, but it's more about Monday thinking where

(53:15):
really you want to see him beplaying off a bit more against each other,
right, And it's where someone morecompelling. It's it's why it's why
I make the Within and I comparison, because yea, with and I ends
up being a movie about Marwood,not about the Eye character. For people

(53:37):
who don't know that, I iscalled Marwood in the scripts on Bruce Robinson,
based on Bruce Robinson. Um,it turns out to be his story.
The movie begins with him it endswith with Noll, but it ends
with him going off on the trainto actually have a life and a career.

(53:57):
He's the one who's going to gofrom better himself, right, and
he's left, Yeah, behind theballs exactly, behind emotional bars, behind
self made bars of alcohol and drugs. Um. But yeah, so where
is this lax that through line forprotecting because you know, what's he going

(54:22):
to do. He's just going todrift off and I don't think he's ever
going to get back to I mean, I know at the end he says,
I'm heading for Minnesota, which iswhere his sister is. But you
get the idea he's never going tomake it there, nor does he really
want to. Otherwise, why wouldn'the have been if he still feels as
lost at the end of the film, Yeah, as he was at the

(54:45):
start, And maybe you could say, well that's what I finished, what
would But yeah, yeah, sogood, great performances. There's just like
you say, there's just that bitthat's sort of yeah, it's it's you've

(55:09):
watched it and you've sort of goneit's really good. Performances are great.
It definitely means something, but it'skind of like just I don't know.
It's also a really weird movie inthe sense that, um, you know,

(55:30):
it's not a big budget film obviously, but it has so two things.
First of all, it goes toNew York films in in in the
real New York. There's a wholesequence in New York, which, yeah,
it doesn't need to be set there. Everything that happens in New York
can happen in the car, orcould happen in a roadside motel, or

(55:52):
you know, you could just belike, oh, we're driving to New
York. It's gonna take us afew days. Let's go to a motel,
like you don't need to go toNew York. But the movie goes
to New York and has a bigscene in New York. Then the movie
has while you can probably fake theyou know, stately home and stuff,
and in fact, it never showsyou the whole home. You only see

(56:15):
like the gate, and then yousee a big room and you see whatever
like and the big room is fairlyempty. It's just a card table on
a big rug, like you couldreally have filmed that anywhere. It then
has two things which must have costthe production money. One is the city
of the world model, which evenif you took an existing model, like

(56:37):
because people make those models, rightpeople weirdos you know that I'm joking,
you know, like train enthusiasts wholike to build huge models of the town
that they're training can ride through.And then mummy will watch me. No,
mummy will watch me while I touchit? No, sorry, watch

(57:00):
me play with my model, mummyand with the other hand. No,
Um, should I put myself inthe model Mummy to call me? Pass
the trains coming, mummy and I'mcoming too in the tunnel mummy. Anyway,

(57:22):
Sorry, I'm gonna stop. Evenif you took one that already existed,
like borrowed one from someone, Um, there's still models and specific things
that you would have to make inorder for that to work. Because because
prisners are smiling. Sorry, allthe prisoners are smiling the work. All

(57:45):
the prisoners are smiling. That's aweird that's a weird thing. Well,
they're happy to be in prison,dear boy. That's the society. And
then there's uh, you know.Then there's models of the two guys Flowernced,
there's models of Spader over tanking,there's models of the wall, there's
models of the trailer home that they'rein. So like, even if you

(58:08):
took an existing thing and borrowed itoff someone or paid you know, a
couple of hundred bucks or whatever tofilm it, you would still have to
then have a model maker make exactmodels of these things, which you know
is not inexpensive. But then beyondthat, you know, unless unless the
filmmaker happen to know a dude whoowned a meadow with a bunch of rocks

(58:30):
in it in the movie, Inthe movie, they build an actual wall,
which I know isn't expensive, butright, but you know, the
stones are real stones, And Imean, I know that that doesn't make

(58:52):
it like super big budget or whatever, but I mean it's certainly like a
few Like if you were making alow budget movie, you know, you
wouldn't go, uh wow, wejust don't fucking find a way to build
a wall, like you wouldn't.Yeah, and this is a huge fucking
wall. This is like hundreds offeet long. This is not just like

(59:13):
a little Piddley wall, and it'sit's at least seven feet high, like
it's taller than him. It's atleast seven foot tall. So it's a
it's a hell of an undertaking toput in a little RinkyDink movie like this.
But the other thing that's so weirdis the rest of the movie feels
like a student film. So ithas these like big things in it.

(59:36):
But the way Philip passed directed andthis is why I say, like this
guy should have been kept as faraway from as fucking film as possible.
But like the rest of it isthat, like the camera work is not
good, that the direction is notparticularly good. At one point you see
a boom mike come into Chartum,it's you know, it's it's a bit
like a shunky student film. Butthen you know, juxtaposed against the fact

(01:00:00):
that they build a fucking hundred footlong, a foot tall wall. Yeah,
so it's weird. It's weird,is what I'm saying. As a
director is a great architect because it'sjust a very straight wall. It's an
exceptionally straight wall. That's what Iwill say about it. I tell you

(01:00:20):
what, Philip. I tell youwhat. Philip not much with the camera,
but it was an incredibly straight wall. Yeah. And I tell you
what, when I go to themovies, what I'm looking for Dear Boy
as a wall, and what yougave Weekly Philip, how long did it
take to build the wall in allhonest and how much did you pay the
boys to do it? And didMandy Potenkin really do it? That's what
I want to know is the ironyof this movie that Mandy Potenkin signed on

(01:00:46):
thinking that he was a free agentactor and actually became an indentured servant to
the movie playing a man who becomesan indented servant to Joel Gray and Charles
Dirney, who in turn have becomeno, I'm indented servants to their wealth,

(01:01:07):
who in turn and then layers.Is that what we're saying here?
Darker than layers upon layers, layslike an onion? Or are you just
banging your head against a bloody greatwall? M My, my favorite thing
about the whole movie was Spader's costumesjust just yeah no. But he went

(01:01:31):
from like the white shoes with thepale baby blue suit and a loud shirt
um to like, at one pointhe's wearing like a silk brown blouse and
another point he's dressed like an Oasisfan at Glastonbury with a big floppy hat

(01:01:53):
and a smart and pair of dirtypants. Like there was that that bit
where he's well he's on the siton the wall and and he's talking to
mm Walsh and whatever, waving hishands around or whatever. He looks like
every single one of my Stone andfriends in the nineties went off to Glaster.

(01:02:15):
It's exactly what he looked like.Yeah. Yeah, he was in
a field, so he was literallyin a faved Yeah. I thought any
minute now he was going to belike, right, but have you heard
Blurs Park Lice? You know it'san exceptional work. Um. Yeah,
he was my favorite thing about it. I could have watched Spader play that

(01:02:36):
character for the rest of for therest of the time. The rest of
it was just weird, and thenit was fine. Um. It's one
of those films that like, Ilike, I don't want it to get
lost. It was just given arelease by Imprint in the UK. Is
that what you watch it on thebu ye see blue ray? Yeah?

(01:03:00):
Company, So how did that so? And I asked you this the beginning.
I don't know if we ever gotaround to it. I think we
went off down the road something else. But so why Music of Chance?
I think why why was that theone that you were like, oh,
like I remember in the nineties seeingthe video cover for it twenty twenty Vision

(01:03:23):
and it was like James Spader andit was it was it was around the
ninety three, so it was aroundthat big indie boom. Yeah. I'd
started buying in Empire magazine, soI saw it in there and I really
wanted to see it. And thenit's been so difficult to find. Yeah,
over the past few years. Imprintreleased it, so I bought it

(01:03:45):
and then when he said about doingit, I thought, well, it
will give me a chance to watchit. Yeah, Oh well, excellent,
that's fantastic. Yeah, it's um, it's what it chronologically, it
comes between Reservoir Dogs and pulp fiction, right policy four? Yeah? Uh
where was true Romance? Is thatninety one? Ninety three? Ninety three?

(01:04:09):
Okay? Yeah, um so sameyear? So same is this?
And is Dogs the year before?Is that? Ye? Two? Yeah?
Yeah, all right, So that, I mean that explains a lot
as well, like just that,yeah, because when I first you know,

(01:04:30):
really James Spader was a bit ofan indie darling. Wasn't a sex
size and videotape which we did before. Yes, that was the stuck part
of it with their Steven Soderberg.Yes, so it was. It was
he did like his eighties thing wherehe played the bastard in the in high
school and then the nineties. Youknow, I'd say this is probably one

(01:04:55):
of the roles that he really sortof lets himself go and he's a bit
different. Yeah, definitely, becausewhen it's sex lies, that's in nineteen
eighty nine. Yeah, so,and that's fairly like. What's interesting is,
obviously there's the eighties stuff that peopleknow Spader for Tough Turf, New
Kids, um uh pretty and pinkmannequin baby boom lesson Zero Wall Street and

(01:05:23):
so on. Um, but you'reright, sex lies and videotapes. It's
funny because his last sort of bigeighties style like brat Pack films are Bad
Influence and White Palace. Yeah,oh sorry, the Rachel papers Bad Influence
in White Palace, all of whichcome after sex lies and videotapes. So

(01:05:44):
it's not like he does sex liesand videotape and then it's like, nope,
I am only doing you know,indie think pieces. He goes right
back to being like, you know, sleezing around with low Yeah. Yeah,
but it's it's it's such an oddlike, when I look at Spader's

(01:06:06):
career, it's such an odd ummix between like very low budget like stuff
like Driftwood, which we've covered beforeon the show, and even things like
Keys to Tulsa and um this andothers that are very like their low budget

(01:06:27):
films that you know, there's nota lot of money behind them, even
though they have like fairly decent casts. Well, it was spent mainly on
the cast. I would think,Yeah, I mean money thinking was huge?
Was it was he huge on Broadwayaround this time? Yeah, Mandy,
Mandy Petenkin was was big on Broadway. Um, although he'd already done
uh yeah yeah. But then yeah, but then you get like it's so

(01:06:54):
weird because sort of he does inthe mid nineties, he does Wolf,
Stargate, and Crash, all ofwhich would become like huge for different reasons.
But ye could films. They're bigfilms. U Two Days in the
Valley which was a big rental,but it was not a big movie.

(01:07:15):
It was sort of the right therewith you know, the pulp fiction ripoffs
of the time, thanks to Doin Denver when You're Dead and all that.
Oh I do like that one.But then right off the back of
that, he does Driftwood, whichis literally it's a two hander. It's
it's and it was filmed in Irelandand it's him and a French bird and

(01:07:36):
she finds him on the beach andhe doesn't have a memory and she takes
him back to his heart and youknow, they have sex and everything like.
It's just it's a very quiet littlemovie. James Spader film Keys to
Tulsa, which is I don't evenknow what Keys to Tulsa is part of
Old Ass. It's awful. It'sEric Stolts and Spader and it's it's just

(01:07:59):
awful. Um. And I alwayswonder when the two gingers A get together
and make a film in it.Oh, they did a couple of things
together. They did that. Andhe's in Two Days in the Valley with
him, and what else is hein with him? I think he's in
one other movie with him as well. Aren't they all in Greasy Lake together?
And I'm not kidding that's an actualYeah, he is. He's in

(01:08:21):
a movie called Greasy Lake. Uh, and it's greasy because of Spader.
Um, yeah, greasy with aZ. Yeah, it's it's um.
Summer vacations just started, and threenineteen year old friends decide on a night

(01:08:44):
out cruising, heading for Greasy Lakeoutside La. It turns out more eventful
than they expected. It's the otherginger is ed sheering, No, it's
not, apparently, Tom waits andrates it. Why all right, I
need to have I not seen thatI need to find. Clearly I need

(01:09:06):
to find. It's only thirty minuteslong, so um, it's not a
it's not a full movie. Umyeah, right, it's called Greasy Lake.
Spade is like I mean, butno, it's just a probable to
read the script first. Yeah,apologies, we sadly have to pause for

(01:09:29):
some ads. Maybe if more ofyou supported us on Patreon, But there
it is. The aftermovie Diner doesn'tendorse any of these advertisers. We don't
even know what you're going to hear. It's forced technical AI wizardry and don't
fool yourself. None of us arein control. The robots are coming and

(01:09:51):
they want to sell us insurance.You know, he was in a bunch
of big eighties things like I likepretty Pink Mannequin, baby Boom, Lessons,
Zero Wall Street. You think youknow higher and higher and high.
You think he's something, but no, then he does Jack's Back, Greasy
Lake, sex lines and Videotape,which was obviously a big indie thing,

(01:10:13):
but it's not a big movie.The Rachel Papers Bad influenced White Palace,
True Colors, Storyville. None ofthese are like, you know, much
of anything. I mean, they'refine, but they're not. I mean,
I remember White Palace. We allwatched White Palace because of Tita's but
I mean, apart from that,like, no one watched White Palace because
of the plot, you know whatI mean, It's just surroundings Tita's and

(01:10:39):
then a little bit more like WolfStargate, Crash, two Days in the
Valley like okay, okay, andthen nothing again, Driftwood, Keys to
Tulsa, Critical Care. It allcame true super and over the Watcher slow
Burn. Speaking of sex, Imean, all of the stick up,
all of these are like, noone's watched these movie. He's put me,

(01:11:01):
I'm like the only person to havewatch these movies. And by two
thousand and three he's an alien hunter, which isn't even like sci fi channel
levels if I've not seen budget.Yeah, and it's just so odd to
me that you know that he's neverreally like, you know, everyone knows

(01:11:25):
who James Spader is, but it'syeah, it's just odd to me.
It's like at a point where hisagent died and he couldn't find another agent,
so he's so he's like his mumjust got in there work. Oh,
I've got this lovely movie. Haveyou ever thought a fucking a leg

(01:11:47):
roomb? Yeah? Well, also, like he's in a movie in nineteen
eighty eight, It All Came True, which has Maggie Smith and Michael Caine
in it, but it's a movieyou've never heard of, Like, how
does the movie come out that hasMichael Kaine, James Spaden, Maggie Smith
in it and you've never fucking heardof it? Like Michael Caine has done
some random ass shit this time,but like, and it's funny, I've

(01:12:11):
watched it all came true. Itall Came true? Is the sleazy Spader
episode that never got released? Ah? Well, because Jim and I started
talking about it and we had suchvastly different takes on it. Like Jim
fucking hated it, like he hatedit to his core, and I thought

(01:12:35):
it was kind of funny and stupidand we could take the piss out of
it, but he so hated itthat we couldn't. Like I wanted some
fun banter and it wasn't happening,and Jim wanted to fucking burn the film
and I didn't want that. Soit was one of those where we kind

(01:12:56):
of got halfway through recording and justwent, yeah, this isn't happening,
you know what I mean, andwe just both agreed to like, you
know, agree to disagree, andwe moved on. So I've watched it
and and it's it's it's but it'sthe Sleazy Spader episode that never that never
was, which is absolutely fine.It's good to have those out there.
But I do think if we're gonnado, like, you know, if

(01:13:20):
I was to do a seventh SleazySpader springtime next year, it would really
be slim pickings, because I mean, the only ones we haven't covered,
I mean, unless I did likeAge of Ultron or Lincoln or something where
he has like a cameo in it, like it would be ship like Shadow
of Fear, which I've tried towatch it is fucking awful. Um the

(01:13:42):
Pentagon Papers, which like as aTV movie might be worth it because like
doesn't have isn't Cusack in it?Or is it Cusack in Yeah, No,
he's not in that one. He'sin Um, he's in True Colors,
is what he's That's the True Colorshe did. That's what junk Zack
in it. Yeah, so Icould do like True Colors Penticon papers,

(01:14:05):
you know, but it's not reallya scene, you know what I mean.
It wouldn't be a compelling season.It would literally be the dregs,
yeah, because it would be shadowof fear that nobody cares about Pentagon papers,
nobody cares about True Colors, whichhas a little bit of interest based
on the fact that it's Cusack andSpader. But that's about it. We've

(01:14:25):
covered everything else, I mean,less than zero and mannequin we did during
the Andrew McCarthy episode yet, soit's not technically part of Sleazy Spader Springtime.
But I don't know that I wouldwant to go back. There is
a Killer in the Family that hedid with Robert Mitchum that's available on the

(01:14:48):
Warner Archive collection. So maybe there'senough to do a fourth, a seventh
season next year. Then let's waitand see. Let's see how many people
download this seeing as I've brought itback from the dead. But anyway,
anymore about Music of Chance or Spaderin general, sir, that you would

(01:15:09):
like to No, it's definitely worththe watch. I think it's definitely worth
while. I think it might.It might be a film that probably if
you do find something in it andyou go back swit, you probably will
find more the more you go backto it or less. I mean,
yes, I will probably watch itagain. I didn't mind it is watch.

(01:15:32):
I tell you what it is.The Music of Chance is the kind
of movie that if I ever evergot to interview James Spader, I wouldn't
care to necessarily talk to him aboutCrash or sex, lies and videotape or
whatever. I'd want to talk tohim about Driftwood and Music of Chance and

(01:15:55):
these kind of movies where you're justlike, so, what was the thinking
there, James? Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know what I mean.
Yeah, because it's definitely one ofthose where he's you know, but
I bet they all thought they weregoing to shit on cam that year with
that film. Yeah, I betthey feel they bet they probably thought they
were coming home with the palm door. I'm sorry, it's just not well

(01:16:18):
directed enough at all at any point. But you know, I don't you
know what I think. It's good. It's a good fucking wall. It's
a great wall, great wall.Three stars. Yeah, No, it's
it's it's it's a good movie.And as I said, it has its
positives, it has its negatives,but well worth just for the spader of

(01:16:41):
it and just for the obscure natureof it. Like it's just so pretty
this way. If how Ashby hadmade it in the seventies, it would
have fucking killed Yeah. If howAshby had made it, everyone be like,
well did you see the film howmade about the two men who build
a wall? Oh? The metaphorsown. People would be ejaculating it in

(01:17:02):
the roof. It would be Kermode'sfavorite film. That's what it would be.
Absolutely. Simon Mayo would still besort of like, what what what
what do you mean they build awall? Well, Mayo understand that there
are these things called walls. Ido understand what a wall is. Mark,

(01:17:25):
I don't pink Floyd's not that wall. I fucking hate those two.
I used to like those two andlisten to those two a lot, and
now I fucking hate them. Inever listened to them. But I mean
that's basically it. Like Kermode wouldstart reviewing it, so it's James Maid
and Mandy Protecon they have to buildthis wall, and Simon may would be

(01:17:46):
like, what what do you meanthey have to build a wall. They'd
be like, well, that's thepart of the film. They have to
build a wall. While it doesn'tsound like a very interesting film to me,
and everyone listening to it be like, shut up, Mayo, fucking
Penis. And then Mark Cummer wouldbe like, I think it would be
better if I played some skiffle overthe top of it. Fuck off,

(01:18:06):
come you fucking toilet. That's that'swhat the review of Music Change would Music
of Chance would be like. Andthen mmt walshes in it, and then
how many ms is that? Fuckoff? Sime Mayo? You can't.

(01:18:28):
That's like it's so easy to dotheir banter because their banter is so pre
planned, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, like wrestling,
Yeah it is, yeah, onlywith less town. Yeah, but they
had that moment, dude, likethat podcast was big for like a minute
a minute. Yeah, they didn'tget four hundred downloads last month, more

(01:18:50):
out and all yeah right, yeah, So Doctor Action episodes still still catching
the heat. Dude, do youever think that we'll u sit back in
those chairs? I would I wouldlove to do a couple of Burt Reynolds
ones after watching Alone. Yeah,I would like to do Ma alone.

(01:19:13):
Yeah and this this alone now Yeah, me and I always make that joke,
and I think it's fantastic. Yeah. Have you seen the VH cover
of milon VHS cover of Malone?Yeah, with the shotgun? Yeah,
with the fire behind him? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, you know I
owned that right. Yeah, it'sfucking It's my favorite because it's just a

(01:19:36):
wall of fire and then him withthe shotgun like doing his because he's been
shot in the leg or where hegets shot. Yeah. Yeah, yeah,
I love that video cover that youlook at and you just go want
it, need it. Yes,checked into my fu. I don't even
care what happens in it. Ijust want I just want Burt Reynolds in

(01:20:00):
pain with a shotgun, with awall of fire behind him, and they've
they've tucked the Oriyan logo, whichis like the only other thing I don't
even think it says it may saybout Rynold's done it, but the only
other thing on the front of itis the Orian logo and they've tucked it
into the crook of his leg.It's like a really weird like because his

(01:20:21):
legs bent right, they've taken likea it's such a weird video cover,
but I fucking love it. It'sfantastic. Um have you ever seen like,
did you ever see like that movielike Raven that he made? He
made like a whole series of actionmovies which just looked terrible. But yeah,
I know, I think I mighthave bought it like on a DVD

(01:20:43):
that was sort of like ten pYeah. I don't know where it is,
but if you know, if ifhe's everyone YouTube, I'll probably give
it a watch just to sort of, you know, say, I've watched
five minutes of it. Yeah.Yeah, I always thought we'd probably end
up doing that one in Dots Actionone time, because that was Nancies Will.
Yeah, we could we could doWe could do the Malone. We
could do a little Reynolds season.Why not. We could even dip back

(01:21:08):
to the seventies we did um theBlackplotation movies and stuff. Yeah, we
could do Reynolds down South, Reynoldsm Gator and those ones, White Lightning
which I have on the Keyno Laubablue As. Yeah. So yeah,

(01:21:30):
we could do that. Um,I mean we could do some Scott Atkins
movies. Um, there's some.There's some good Scott Atkins movies we could
do. Um. Have you seenthe Naga Accident? I have, Accident
Man, hit Man Holiday, Ihave, Yes, you're good. Yes,

(01:21:50):
I liked it a lot. Yeah, Okay, I've got to get
that because I wish either Jesse Johnsonor um Isaac Fiarantine had directed it.
Yeah, yeah, I think it. I think it fails in the direction
a little bit. But I lovedthe first one, and I thought the

(01:22:15):
the sequel was The sequel was alot funnier. The sinquel was a lot
sillier, but maybe a little repetitive, Okay, but decent. Yeah,
yeah, but a little repetitive.Yeah, but I liked it. I
recently like, I went on atear because they had a whole bunch of

(01:22:35):
sales on Amazon, and I Ithink I own almost every Scott Atkins movie
up until a point. I don'town any of the more recent one,
but I own I owned all his. I even went ahead and bought Metal
Herland, the TV series with Michaeljar White and whatever because it was on

(01:22:56):
for ten bucks or something. Butyeah, I picked up I don't have
I don't own him Man's Holiday yetbecause it wasn't out on Blue ray,
but I rented it on Amazon.Yeah, so I've watched it, but
I owned the first one. Avengement, which is I mean Avengement is still
like Avengement Ninja two. Um uh, you know undisputed, probably three and

(01:23:24):
four maybe those are like those tome are just like Justify Atkins. But
anyway, so we got one morething to do before we end the episode,
Sir Sleazy Spader Springtime. There isalways one thing, which is what
does James Spader take from the setof the movie and put in the sleezatorium

(01:23:44):
in his basement? And it's neversomething obvious, right, It's never like
a huge dildo or yeah, it'snot the Pentas magazine he asked for,
Right, it's not the Pentas magazine. It's not Samantha mathisis underwear, Like,
what what would be? What couldhe be sleazy with that intrinsically has

(01:24:05):
no sleeves value to anyone else,But he makes it intrinsically sleazy. I
know what my choice says, Butbut but I want to know if if
you have an option, so fromthis it might be mm well she's gone.

(01:24:28):
You're going to say, mm itwashes overalls. I thinking what,
mm it washes dungarees. Yeah,I want to take mm it wash you
go. No, I want totake m and it. I just want
to take mm it was and puthim in our slesatorium why why the why

(01:24:50):
the gun said, what's the what'sthe thinking behind the gun? I couldn't
think of anything else. Okay,my my my choice would be this.
Um, my choice would be thethe little red wagon that they're given to
move the stones around. And becauseit's like a child's red wagon. Um

(01:25:15):
and yeah, and I think Ibought one from a daughter. Yeah.
And it would have Mandy Potenkin's sweaton it. And I think that because
it's not like So, this isthe other thing we should talk about quickly,
is it's not particularly sleazy films Spade. It is sleazy in it.
He has lank hair, mustache.He folds his legs like a muppet,
like a muppet folds their legs likeyeah, he um acrosses his legs rather

(01:25:41):
a crosses his legs like a muppet. Um like a muppet does. His
limbs are very like gangly and obscene. His outfits are ridiculous. I mean
he definitely has that um baby bluesuit covered in blood. Like he definitely
saved that as well. Yeah,I wouldn't like, I wouldn't be surprised

(01:26:02):
if the real Mandy Potentki was drivingdown the road and Saul Spader covered in
blood and when asked what the hellhappened to you, he was like,
you know, I was at thePlayboy Mansion and I'm not going to tell
you any more of that story,you know what I mean. I was
at the Playboy Mansion for a veryselect party that that involves lots of blood

(01:26:26):
letting. Let's just leave it atthat. Um, it had to be
there. Um. So he definitelyhas the baby blue suit. But I
think he would find something particularly obsceneabout the little red wagon. UM.
So that's why I think he takesthat the movie is that particularly seasy.
But there is the fact that outof all of the cast and crew and

(01:26:50):
everything, he's the one that asksfor a prostitute. Um. And then
Samantha Mathis shows up in like ablind can you'll miss it? Cameo for
no reason, sorry, I think, and she gets build a wolsh.

(01:27:10):
He's got a face like a bullbag, so that doesn't surprise me.
Philip hass Is like, I havelisted people in order of beauty, and
m you have a face like aball bag, so I'm putting you put
yourself after me. Um so.But no, the sleeziest it gets is

(01:27:38):
the prostitute scene. But I stillthink he would he would take the red
Wagon. I think there's something thathe would find particularly. He's definitely the
red wagon. He's definitely the redwagon. She just never he'd want to
be pulled around in it. He'dwant to be pulled around in it wearing
wearing a nappy, yeah, anda nappy and then like one of those

(01:27:58):
uh golden wreath like Emperor Roman emperorwreaths and they used to wear around their
head like a little golden fascinator withleaves on it, and then and a
nappy, an adult nappy. Andhe just gets pulled around in the red
wagon, screaming at the women whoare pulling him, Mush you mush.

(01:28:24):
James Speeder this afternoon became the firstman to reach the North Pole in a
red wagon pulled by topless women.Well no, he says he's doing it
for charity, but we all knowreally why he's actually doing it. Yeah,
if he don't seem to see,he donates his time now to help

(01:28:48):
pain. You'll bleach the homeless.Why did you say that at the moment
I took a big cup? Canyou imagine him on Light the View or
something some daytime talk show being like, so, James, we understand you

(01:29:09):
started a new charity. H thetron, I've started a new chart.
Yeah, and and and what's itfor? I? Well, I give
money to anally bleach the homeless,not only my money, but my time.
I do it. I have aI have a mobile bleaching kit that
I take around. I've got oneof those old VW Camba vans. Plenty

(01:29:30):
of women there for anal bleaching andI just invite So, so James,
you invite homeless people into your VWCambra van and you bleach their inn its.
Yeah, yeah, that's what Ido. Yeah, And I let
them take a copy of it homewith them. I'm there charity an bleached

(01:29:55):
stop. That is phenomenal. Thatis hilarious. Oh my goodness, that
is I'll do pubic mounds as wellas a push like, if you want
to bleach your pubic region, thenyour pubis and then I'll do that as

(01:30:17):
well if you want. Like,I'm easy either way, but I like
the anus. Yeah, I'm allabout the butt. So do you do
you feed them? Do you givethem a shout? No? No,
no no, there are other charitiesthat do that. I'm just analy bleached.
That's all I'm interested in doing.I make sure they get work yeah,

(01:30:44):
well they get to work out anyway. Yea. And how many people
have you done this? For?James? At least eighty eight at this
point, I do about seven aday, eight a day, something like
that. It's just a harbby,it's a hobby. But I like to
give back to the homeless of NewYear. Don't we know more? Do

(01:31:05):
we know? Stargate too? BecauseI'm too busy at the minute. Ane
bleaching charity. I hate Kurt Russelland signed up. Yeah, Curtis signed
up, But I can't be apart of it. I'm afraid. Um.

(01:31:27):
I still love the fact that whenasked by David Cronenberg, like do
you think you'll be okay doing crash, he goes jitz Baden's response, well,
I get to fuck everyone. Thatwas his actual response, actual response,
Yeah, it's great, I getto fuck everyone, right, and

(01:31:50):
he's like he's like yeah, yeah, but not really. He's like,
uh, just he just turns afun set naked with a huge stoking arrange,
and he's like whoa, whoa,whoa, whoa, whoa whoa.

(01:32:11):
No, yeah, no, there'sno real wounds here. Yeah. I
wonder if he went method. Yeah, he definitely went method. Yeah,
he definitely went method. Um.But no, he's like, I get
to fuck everyone, and then thechronobugs like yeah, basically, and then
he goes even a liars Cotius.I want to make sure that I definitely

(01:32:32):
put it down on paper that Iget to fuck a list. Okay,
I would have thought the fact thatyou slept with all the women would have
no. No, no, no. I want to make this very clear
and put it in my contract.I fuck a liars Coutius about Holy Hunter
take a leave. But I wantto make sure that the end of the

(01:32:57):
Alias Codiu scene after I fucked him, that he smears come on his face,
Like I want to make sure thatthat's the thing that happens. Yeah,
I'm not watched it yet. There'sa lot of there's a lot of
well there's two uh fluid scenes.Let's just say, well it's Pronuberg.
So you do expects you don't,Yeah, I mean you don't see like

(01:33:18):
streams, you don't. No,it's not me. No, you don't
see streams of a jacolate. Butyou see it on fingers and on faces
and things. Yeah, yeah,it's Yeah, it's a it's a really
pointless film, it really is.It's just sex scene, car crash,
sex scene, car crash, sexscene, car crash, and then it

(01:33:39):
ends and you go, that wasa lot of sex and a lot of
car rex. Yeah. Yeah,and Spader got to sleep with Spader gets
to sleep with everyone. I'm tryingto think, is there anyone in the
film he doesn't have sex. No, he's has sex with Holly Hunter,
Debra car I'm go Rosanna Arquet's legwound analyze coatis so full on days for

(01:34:01):
him, and then filming that,yeah, filming that bad Boy. Yeah.
Yeah, And he's had sex withHound and Debra car on goer multiple
times, multiple times, always theway. So yeah, so he takes
a little red wagon for Music ofChange Chance, Music of Chance. Yeah,

(01:34:23):
and that's been. That's been ourepisode on Sleazy Spader Springtime. Music
of Chance available now on Imprint BluRay in the UK and on import uh
duck. Any final messengers comments,questions about the film, about anything.
So, oh, I shout outto my grandson athored you dead rogue nice,

(01:34:48):
that's that's that's I just want tojust say it out to him.
So yeah, so that when hegets old, when he gets older,
he's going to listen to all ofthis and then go it ain't no bleaching
joke. At what age? Atwhat age is he going to be allowed

(01:35:11):
to start going through the doctor actioncatalog? Six six six? Yeah,
Yeah, it's just a few badwords, just a few bad words.
He's looking back. I don't thinkI swore wouldn't. Yeah. I mean,
he's not going to get any ofthe references. But it will be

(01:35:32):
funny when he toddles up to youat the age of six and goes to
his Michael Winner and you're gonna belike, let me sit you down and
tell you a story all of that, mister Michael Win. We'll start We'll
start with death wish, start withan easy one. There's only one rape

(01:35:54):
and that so start with an easyone. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah, going slowly, Yeah,well then we'll Yeah, you've got to
ease in slowly to win a there'speople people said that, that's what they
said in the seventies. You've gotto aise in slowly with me, dear
boy, that's what you have todo. It's a little bow grease for

(01:36:15):
a bit of elbow grease. Well, I am. I am making a
movie, and so if you wantto have a cameo in the film I'm
making, you just let me know. I'll be a cock double. Yeah,
be a cock double or but butbut but Similarly, like if there's
something you can film, like whereyou are now, and like send me
the footage, let me know andI'll write it into the script or whatever.
Okay, problem anyway, dude,I gotta jump for dinner. But

(01:36:40):
lovely jumbly, thanks for doing this. Love to everybody and speaks her Yeah
you too, brother? All right, by now do you like to bye?
Yes, we've come to the endof the show. That wasn't so
bad, was it. You canmove forward now with the confidence that you
are a survivor to play us out. Here's some new music by miscellaneous plumbing

(01:37:05):
Fixtures, which you can find onbandcamp, Spotify, and wherever music is
found, even TikTok, which wedon't understand. We're old and find your
childish, vain pursuits confusing. Goodnight, Wait around, just one more

(01:37:59):
day for the moon to change,when the ceilings getting low, when the
impulses to go, just wait,just wait, wait for all the clarity
you need to continue as your chosenspeed. Wait it's on its way.

(01:38:31):
When I cannot say, give itone more day? Nothing hands around forever,
the knot is fraying on the chelenand the times you just gave in

(01:38:53):
when the line gets faintented, justwait, just wait, wait for all
colors to really wait for us.No waters to save. Wait is just

(01:39:16):
the sway it'll loosen up the claim. Give it one more day, Just
give it one more day? Wentafter all and sitting down, and all

(01:39:40):
the runnings have got one because nowI wear around the tramp when the cruise
are breaking down, the lights ofdown to just still around, dake your
time and heading back. No oneelse knows where this sends. The s

(01:40:03):
to pretend and paper up the crowdChina runningly. You just chose to time
away on the rain. You choseto sound away. Wait it only card

(01:41:23):
you in passing accosted you askin amoment in the nusty ground, scheme pressed
hollow on the dream just sway,just sway. Wait for all the clarity

(01:41:44):
wall to contin you in a home. We got a home. The wait
is trying to sway, whether thereis small delayed. And give it one
more day. Don't give it onemind day. And give it one more day.

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Season 2 Ep 3 - Sleazy Spader Springtime 6: Easy Sleazy Does It - Doc Paul Crowson & The Music of Chance

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The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Season 2 Ep 3 - Sleazy Spader Springtime 6: Easy Sleazy Does It - Doc Paul Crowson & The Music of Chance