July 30, 2025 • 24 mins
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For 25 years of my life, I struggled with panic disorder, agoraphobia, OCD, and depression. I was so anxious that I couldn't leave my house or be alone for more than a few minutes at a time. But last week, I finally did something I've wanted to do since I was 9 years old.
In this episode, I share a personal story - not as a blueprint for your recovery, but as encouragement that anxiety recovery is possible. When I was in elementary school, a trip to the planetarium showed me what the night sky really looks like without light pollution. For decades, I dreamed of seeing that sky for real, but anxiety, fear, and often just being "too busy" (this is dumb) kept from doing that.
Last week, I drove seven hours from Long Island to an international dark sky site in Pennsylvania. For someone who once couldn't drive 60 seconds without having a panic attack, this was significant. I went into the middle of nowhere, with no cell phone service, to finally see what I'd been dreaming about since childhood.
This episode explores what anxiety recovery actually looks like - not learning that you're "okay," but learning you never needed to ask that if you're OK in the first place.
If you're struggling right now and feel like you'll never get better, I want you to know that I felt the same way - and I was wrong. People do get better from anxiety disorders. Maybe you just need to hear a story like this one today. So here it is. I hope it helps.
Resources mentioned:
Free book "An Anxiety Story" available:
https://theanxioustruth.com/an-anxiety-story/
YouTube version with photos and video footage
The Disordered Podcast (co-hosted weekly show)
The Anxious Truth is a podcast focused on evidence-based anxiety recovery using acceptance and mindfulness-based approaches. New episodes every two weeks.
Subscribe, rate, and review to help others find the show!
Support The Anxious Truth: If you find the podcast helpful and want to support my work, you can buy me a coffee. Other ways to support my work like buying a book or signing up for a low cost workshop can be found on my website. None of this is never required, but always appreciated!
Interested in doing therapy with me? For more information on working with me directly to overcome your anxiety, follow this link.
Disclaimer: The Anxious Truth is not therapy or a replacement for therapy. Listening to The Anxious Truth does not create a therapeutic relationship between you and the host or guests of the podcast. Information here is provided for psychoeducational purposes. As always, when you have questions about your own well-being, please consult your mental health and/or medical care providers. If you are having a mental health crisis, always reach out immediately for in-person help.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I used to be so anxious that I was afraid to
leave the house.
I would have panic attacks atthe drop of a hat, full-blown
panic attacks.
I was so afraid that I couldn'tbe left alone for more than a
few minutes at a time.
But last week I got to dosomething that I've wanted to do
my entire life.
It was great, but when I wasreally struggling, when I was in
the grips of anxiety and panicand fear and agoraphobia and OCD
(00:23):
and depression, I thought thiswould be impossible.
I did not think I'd ever beable to do this and, as it turns
out, I was wrong.
So a bit of a change of pace.
This week I want to talk aboutsome of my own personal
experience in the hopes that itmight provide a bit of
encouragement.
If you're struggling withanxiety right now and you are
afraid that you will never getbetter or never be able to do
(00:44):
the things you really want to do, I'm here to tell you that
there's a really good chancethat you're as wrong as I was.
So let's get into it.
Back in the day and I mean, for25 years of my life, on and off,
I struggled with things likepanic disorder and agoraphobia
(01:06):
and OCD and depression.
I would have scary, repetitivethoughts about death and
existence and the nature ofreality.
I would be fixated not only onmy health and my death and my
existence, but everybody that Icared about in the world.
I was having panic attacks allthe time.
I became super fixated on how Ifelt.
I was always worried about whatmy body was doing and what
(01:28):
thoughts my mind was going tomake.
I couldn't experience regularemotions without them being
morphed instantly into fear orpanic.
I couldn't leave my house, Icouldn't be left alone.
I couldn't do any of the thingsthat I wanted or needed to do
in my life, and it was prettymiserable.
Now, that was not every day for25 years, but big giant chunks
(01:52):
of my life were kind of takenaway from me because of this
particular problem, which isreally, unfortunately, very
common in the West.
If you want to know the wholesordid story of the entire 25
years, I've actually written abook called An Anxiety Story,
which you can check out from mywebsite.
It's completely free.
Just download it as a PDF or anaudiobook and check it out.
But the bottom line is thatwhen I was struggling so much
with this particular problem, Ithought I would never be able to
(02:16):
do some of the things that I donow, and I definitely did not
think I was going to get to dothe thing that I finally got to
do last week.
So let's have a little bit ofstory time, but before we do
that, I want to remind you thatmy personal experience is not a
personal blueprint for you.
I am uncomfortable about tellingthis story, not because it's
(02:38):
embarrassing to me, but becauseI never want to hold myself up
as an example of exactly whatyou should do.
I would like to think I'm anexample of what principles of
recovery you might follow, butwhat exactly I did is not
exactly what you're going to do.
That's not fair to me for me toimply that.
And because I do write booksand I do have a YouTube channel
(03:01):
and I do have podcasts and I dohave things like workshops and I
am a therapist, I have to bevery clear here in saying that
what I never, ever want to do isbe the guy that posts the.
Look at me being free.
Pay me and I'll tell you how todo that too.
This is not about that at all.
I'm not even going to mentionsome of that stuff.
All I want to do here is tellyou that once upon a time I
(03:23):
wasn't sure I'd ever get to dowhat I just did and I was wrong.
And if you're thinking thatabout yourself and I understand
that and I get it you might bewrong too.
So let's get to the story.
When I was a kid, I always hadan interest in space and the
universe and I guess I was a bitof a nerd Still am.
I'm okay with that and everyyear when I was in elementary
school we would take a trip tothe local planetarium.
(03:45):
And one year I was probablyabout nine years old.
The guy working the projectorat the planetarium did a little
intro before he started the show, which was just about the night
sky typical grade schoolplanetarium stuff.
And I remember him startingwith hey, here's what the sky
looks like over your house rightnow, and it's true, that's what
was projected over our heads.
Then he said this is what itsky looks like over your house
(04:10):
right now, and it's true, that'swhat was projected over our
heads.
Then he said this is what itwould look like if we turn off
all the shopping malls.
And it got a little darker andthere were more sky, more stars
in the sky on the ceiling ofthis planetarium.
And he said and this is whatwill happen if we turn off all
the street lights?
And it got even darker andthere was more stars in the sky
artificial sky above my head.
Then he said this is what wouldhappen if we turn off the
(04:30):
lights at your school.
And it got a little darker andthere was even more stars in the
sky.
And finally he said this iswhat would happen making a joke
if we turn off all the lights atall the McDonald's.
And it got pitch black and theceiling of the planetarium was
absolutely filled with stars.
Now, I was born in Brooklyn,lived in Queens, grew up on Long
Island.
I'm, by all means, a New Yorkmetro area dude and we have a
(04:53):
huge amount of light pollutionhere.
We always have.
There's a giant light domesurrounding New York City, so I
had never known or seen a skylike that.
I had no idea that that's whatthe night sky actually looks
like.
Now, if you're watching orlistening to this and you live
in a place where you get to seethat on the regular, I'm super
jealous.
But at eight or nine years old,that left an indelible
(05:15):
impression upon me.
I was already interested in thesky and the stars and space and
all of those things and I justremember looking up just agape.
I couldn't believe that that'swhat the sky actually looked
like.
It was full of stars and thatday I sort of thought I got to
go somewhere where I'm going tosee this and for so many reasons
(05:37):
and I can get into a wholeother video about this I never
did until last week.
That was decades ago.
It was a long time ago.
If you're watching on YouTubeyou see the gray in my beard.
Last week I went into the middleof nowhere in Pennsylvania, to
an area in Potter County nearCherry Springs State Park in
(05:58):
Pennsylvania which is recognizedas an international dark sky
site.
It's the only one we have inthe US, I believe, east of the
Mississippi.
It's as dark as you could getin the eastern US and I am here
to tell you it's pretty dark.
It's like nothing I had everreally experienced before Now,
for somebody who was once highlyagoraphobic, who was constantly
(06:18):
worried about how they felt,who was certainly convinced that
I always had to be saved frommy own body, my own heartbeat,
my own breath, my own wobblylegs, my own scary thoughts, my
own emotions.
I used to interpret beingderealized or depersonalized,
that state of dissociation,common anxiety symptom.
I used to interpret that as thefact that I was disintegrating
or slipping away and I wasconvinced that I would need to
(06:40):
be saved or rescued and somebodywould have to come and get me
and prevent that from happening,that I would need to be saved
or rescued and somebody wouldhave to come and get me and
prevent that from happening.
So going out into the middle ofnothing, into the pitch dark,
so that you can look up and seethe actual night sky the way it
really exists, is a terrifyingproposition when you're super
anxious and you are afraid ofhow you will feel in any given
(07:02):
circumstance.
So for an agoraphobic, somebodywho suffered from panic
disorder or agoraphobia,somebody whose intrusive
thoughts OCD, if you will waslatched onto the idea that my
mind could literally sort ofblow itself up and disintegrate
when I got too anxious, somebodywho couldn't even experience
things like happiness or joy orexcitement without it instantly
(07:23):
morphing into panic, that wassuch a daunting task Back in the
day when I really struggled somuch I couldn't get in my car
and drive literally 60 secondsdown the block without winding
up in a blind panic and wantingto run back home and be saved.
So imagine driving seven hoursfrom where I am on Long Island
into the middle of nothing.
(07:44):
We want there to be nothing.
If you want to see sky, youwant to see stars, you need
there to be no people and nodevelopment and no streetlights
and no shopping malls andnothing like that.
You want it to be super dark,and last week I got to do that.
Now, if you're listening to thisas a podcast, I would urge you
to maybe pop on over to myYouTube channel, because I'm
going to overlay some of thepictures that I took and some of
(08:07):
the video from that event,because it was quite
breathtaking.
And last week I found myself inthe middle of Potter County,
outside of Cowdersport,pennsylvania, on a new moon,
with an absolutely perfectlyclear sky in the pitch dark, on
this really lovely farm thatthis couple operates that you
can go and enjoy the sky from.
(08:27):
And I looked up and there wasthat sky that I saw when I was
nine years old in theplanetarium, except this time it
was real.
The night sky is full of stars.
It's full.
There's no empty places.
There's so many stars you can'tpossibly count them.
You can see the Milky Way, thebackbone of night.
(08:48):
I have pictures.
I'm going to overlay them rightnow.
It was astounding.
It was something I waiteddecades and decades and decades
to see Now, admittedly not onlybecause of anxiety and fear,
just because of bad choices andnot making this sort of thing a
priority, but for a very largepercentage of my adult life,
(09:08):
when I had the ability to dothat sort of thing if I felt
like it, because you know, grownup and all that I didn't,
because I was worried that Iwould have to check in with how
I was feeling and what if Istarted to have scary thoughts
in the middle of these fieldsand there's no ambulances, and
how far is it to a hospital?
Ps, pretty far, although that'sactually not true.
Coudersport does even have itsown hospital, but I didn't know
(09:32):
that.
The point of it was being outin the middle of nowhere, away
from my safe place, far awayfrom my safe place, with no easy
escape and no rescue available,like no cell phone service, was
a terrifying thought.
Yet there I was and I want todo it again tomorrow.
I cannot wait to go back and dothat sort of thing again.
I got to experience what thesky actually looks like without
(09:52):
all the lights, something that Ihave wanted to do since I was a
kid and wasn't able to do Inlarge part in big chunks of my
adult life because I was tooworried about checking in on how
I felt first and thinking abouthow I might feel before I
actually went out andexperienced life.
(10:12):
So people are invariably goingto listen to this and think well
, what did you do?
Well, you can read the books.
You can go back and listen toall the other podcast episodes.
You can listen to theDisordered podcast.
I talk about that all the books.
You can go back and listen toall the other podcast episodes.
You can listen to DisorderedPodcast.
I talk about that all the timeLike the principles we use to
overcome anxiety disorders.
That's my bread and butter,that's what I talk about all the
time.
That's what I specialize in mytherapy practice.
(10:33):
So I cannot tell you exactly,step by step.
This is what I did to get mefrom so afraid that I was stuck
in my house to the middle ofnowhere, many years later.
Of course, that's true.
I'm always going to be honestabout the timeline.
But how did I go from one placeto the other?
How did I go from onecircumstance to another?
How did I overcome that?
What does that look like?
(10:55):
Well, I'll tell you that thebottom line was I had to
challenge the idea that I neededto run from myself.
I had to at least consider theidea that I needed to run from
myself.
I had to at least consider theidea that, although the thoughts
I was having were very scaryand disturbing the sensations I
was experiencing were very scaryand disturbing and the emotions
that I was experiencing werekind of overpowering I had to at
least consider the idea thatmaybe they were safe after all
(11:17):
and I could let them happen.
So I got here by justpracticing, intentionally being
triggered again and again andagain and again back in the day
when I was doing all of myrecovery work, and I learned
that I don't have to be afraidof myself anymore and that
translates into living a life,not just going out to see the
night sky, but living a dailylife like anybody would any
(11:39):
normal person might do, withoutever consulting anxiety.
I never check in to see if Imight be anxious.
If I do a thing I might.
I'm not immune to being anxious.
I'm not immune to feelingstress.
I'm not immune to a wide rangeof internal experiences because
I'm a human being.
But what does it look like to berecovered?
I am often asked.
It looks like being able to goout and do a thing that you've
(12:02):
wanted to do since you were akid, and never even once
thinking about because I don'thave to anymore.
What if I get anxious?
That's not a thing I have toask.
How am I feeling?
Am I going to be okay?
How is this going to make mefeel?
I never ask those questionsanymore, and I didn't ask those
questions last week.
I just got in the car and wentbecause I could and I knew that
(12:27):
it was finally time and I didn'twant to wait anymore.
So anxiety, while it's a partof every human life, never gets
consulted.
For me, that's what beingrecovered looks like.
So where are the obstacles?
Like what did I go through?
Well, last week, as any adultworking person, especially in
the West, where we overworkourselves and have ridiculous
(12:48):
expectations for the way we useour time as a working therapist,
I have a very full caseloadright.
I have many clients that I workwith on a weekly basis and I
don't want to miss thosesessions.
I like working with my clients,so in the three or four days
leading up to this little breakI was really working overtime to
try and move things around andsqueeze people in and I was
jamming a lot of sessions into ashort amount of time and, you
(13:09):
know, to try and make sure Iwasn't missing all of my clients
I wanted to try and accommodateas many as I can.
I had to pack.
I never did astrophotographybefore so I was trying to learn
how to do that, how to take goodpictures of the night sky.
There was all kinds of stuffthat was kind of piled up on top
of me.
So leading up to this trip wherewe got up at the crack of dawn
(13:30):
and started driving becauseyou've got to get out of New
York City and if you live aroundhere you know what that means A
seven-hour trip becomes anine-hour trip if you wind up
sitting on the Cross BronxExpressway.
So I was exhausted, I wasstressed, I was trying to do too
many things at one time and Iknew I was going to get up the
next morning, probably with verylittle sleep, and start driving
for seven hours into the middleof nowhere.
(13:52):
And guess what, while at onepoint I did have a bit of a
stress meltdown because I wasjust at the end of my rope the
night before we left even then Iwas not considering oh, what if
this happens while we're in themiddle of a field in
Pennsylvania and there's noambulance I never the thought,
never entered my mind.
So I was able to work throughall of the stress and the
(14:13):
associated emotions andexperiences that came along with
that and still get in the carand go on the trip without
really thinking about it Whilewe were driving.
We were driving through themiddle of nothing.
We start on Long Island andgoing through New York City
where it's very denselypopulated, and if you need to be
saved, I guess you could besaved, but at no point am I ever
thinking I hope I don't need tobe saved.
Of course everybody thinks thatevery day, but I don't think it
(14:36):
any more than any human beingdoes.
And as we got further intocentral New Jersey and things
got more and more rural, I justhappened to notice that like wow
, back in the day this wouldhave been such a scary place for
me to drive alone or otherwise.
And then, as we got intoPennsylvania and sort of exited
the Poconos region and thingsstarted to get really rural,
when we started to head sort ofnorthwest up into the northwest
(14:58):
corner of the state where it'ssuper dark and very sparsely
populated, it got super isolatedand super rural.
And if you're watching onYouTube and, by the way, if
you're listening as a podcast,I'll put a link to the YouTube
video in the podcast description.
I'll show you some of thefootage that I took while
driving through these reallydeserted roads.
You are in the middle ofdriving through just thousands
(15:21):
and thousands of acres of stateforest and undeveloped land
where there might be a littlebit of a hunting lodge here and
there, or maybe you pass a fewpeople who have built houses
next to each other, and thennothing again for another five
or 10 minutes and there's nocell phone service and your
phone only says SOS on it, whichwould be super triggering for a
very anxious person.
(15:41):
So there was the drive throughthe middle of nothing.
It was hot and humid.
So when we got there I was inthe middle of nothing, in the
heat and the humidity, andfeeling really uncomfortable.
Back in the day that discomfortwould have triggered panic and
fear and my mind would havestarted racing and I wouldn't
have been able to handle it andI would have wanted to run home
or be saved.
But all I did this time wassweat, because that's all you
(16:04):
can do in the heat and thehumidity, and I carried my stuff
around the campsite and Istarted setting up camera gear
and I was a little bit nervousbecause I wanted to get it right
, because I never had theopportunity to see that sky and
while I wanted to certainly lookup and actually see it with my
eyes, I also wanted to make surethat I got some really good
pictures of it so I couldremember it and have something
(16:25):
to like take with me as we left.
So I was a little bit stressedthat, as a novice to
astrophotography, I would messthat up.
So I was just kind of loopingthrough some of the things and
checking the camera, make sureit was right.
I was doing a bunch of testing,so there was demand on me.
But at the same time I was alsoable to recognize that I was in
a really lovely place and I'llshow you guys, if you're
(16:45):
watching on YouTube, some of thepictures that I took of this
beautiful environment that I wasin and, as opposed to being
completely fixated on the factthat we were in a remote,
sparsely populated area, I wasable to enjoy the fact that we
were in a remote, sparselypopulated area.
I was able to recognize that itwas dead quiet and that was
really great.
After a while I was reallysuper happy that there really
(17:07):
wasn't much in the way of cellphone service.
I didn't want to be contacted,there was nothing I needed to
connect to and nobody I neededto talk to.
So the difference between backthen and now was the things that
would have been supertriggering I was able to notice
as former triggers, because youknow that anxiety experience is
going to stay with me forever.
It's part of my life.
But instead of seeing them astriggers, I was able to see them
(17:30):
as former triggers and actuallyappreciate the situation that I
was in.
What was once terrifying wasactually, this time, really
enjoyable, amazing how thatworks.
And then, ultimately, I wasable to look up at that sky when
it finally got dark andexperience some really big
emotions.
Remember, this is somethingthat left a mark on me in a good
(17:51):
way while I was a kidelementary school, eight, nine
years old and here I am, decadeslater, actually seeing that sky
, and I thought of the people inmy life that aren't here
anymore, that I would have lovedto be able to share that
experience with.
I should have been able to getto do that with those people,
but I didn't, and now they'renot here and I'm never going to
be able to do that.
(18:12):
It was very emotional at times.
Sitting in the silence underthat enormous canopy of
unlimited stars is going tobring some stuff up.
I don't care who you are, butinstead of being afraid of those
powerful feelings, I got toappreciate those powerful
feelings and claim them for myown and actually fully have them
and know that it's part of whatmakes me human.
(18:32):
It's part of being able to beon this planet until we're not
and experience the full range ofour humanity.
I had the privilege of doingthat in an absolute lovely place
that I want to go back to today, in this amazing situation that
I dreamed and thought about fordecades and decades and was
finally in.
So I think the bottom line hereand I don't want to get too
(18:55):
poetic about it because I'm nottrying to be performative here
Again this is not about like, oh, look at me dancing and happy,
and like you could be this too.
If you pay me, I don't care.
If you never pay me a damnthing.
You don't have to buy a book,you don't have to buy a workshop
, you don't ever have to be atherapy client, I don't care.
But if you listen to me tellthis story and maybe look at
some of the pictures in thevideo that I'm overlaying on top
(19:15):
of it, and you can find alittle bit of encouragement,
because you're also afraid thatyou'll never, ever be able to do
that, because the thoughts thatyou're having and the fears
that you're experiencing feellike you'll never be able to
overcome them or challenge them.
Well, I used to think that too.
Back in those days, I wasconstantly asking am I okay?
Am I okay?
(19:35):
Am I okay?
And to some degree, every humanbeing asks am I okay every day
in some way.
But really anxious people askit constantly and many people
will ask well, I guess recoverylooks like going out into the
middle of nowhere and looking atthe stars and not caring, and
that means you learned to knowthat you are okay.
(19:57):
But really, what I learnedthrough intentionally facing my
fears and opening myself up tolearning from those experiences
is I did not learn that theanswer to am I okay?
Is yes.
I actually learned that I neverhad to ask that question to
begin with.
That's what a recovered lifelooks like.
(20:18):
You learn that that's not aquestion that you have to keep
asking.
That was never the rightquestion.
It's a question that youranxious mind will insist you
keep asking.
But one of the things I mightencourage you today, if you're
struggling, is what would happenif you stopped asking that
question because you recognizethat it's actually not a
question that even needs to beasked to begin with.
(20:38):
Might that put you one stepcloser to standing in a field
looking at the night sky orwhatever it is.
Your goals are and back in theday, some of my goals were
literally just being able topick up my kids from school,
which was not even a mile frommy house Goals change as we
recover and we get better and wego back to living the lives
that we want to live.
(20:59):
So, regardless of where you aretoday, if you are feeling like
you will never possibly overcomethis, because it's impossible
to move through these reallydifficult feelings, or it's
impossible to tolerate thingslike panic, or it is clearly not
the right thing to just letscary thoughts alone.
I have to talk myself out ofthem.
I have to argue with them.
(21:19):
I was there too, but now I'mnot, and that's just because I
opened myself to the possibilitythat following that fear as
powerful and real as that fearwas was probably not a good idea
.
And once I accepted that maybethat wasn't the best idea and I
started to do things in adifferent way, well, things
began to slowly change.
(21:41):
So, again, I was really a littlebit reticent to make this
episode today and talk aboutthis, because I tend not to want
to share my personalexperiences too liberally,
because that's part of the sortof social media influencer
playbook and I don't want toplay by that playbook.
I only tell you the story tolet you know that it is possible
to get better, and I used tothink that I couldn't do it
(22:01):
either.
So if you're thinking thatthere is actually hope for you,
I cannot tell you exactly how todo it in a YouTube video or a
podcast episode.
I can't even do it in 300podcast episodes, but I can at
least give you someencouragement.
People do get better.
I'm one of them and you couldbe one of them too.
So thanks for hanging in thereand, I guess, letting me indulge
this a little bit.
(22:21):
I wasn't sure whether I shouldshare it, but people seem to
feel like it would be useful tohear it.
And if you're watching onYouTube, I hope you're enjoying
the videos and the pictures thatI'm overlaying over the top of
my voice.
And, again, if you're listeningas a podcast episode, I'll put
the link in the description sothat you can go watch the video
if you want to see the picturesand that sort of stuff.
So that's it.
That's episode.
I guess it's episode 322 of theAnxious Truth in the books.
(22:43):
I hope you found it helpful orencouraging.
I hate to say inspiring.
I don't really mean to beinspiring or aspirational, but,
if nothing else, validating,because I used to struggle just
like you, and now I'm not, so Idon't think I'm special.
I did it and I suspect thatmost people will be able to do
it if they find their own way.
(23:04):
So thanks for hanging out today.
If you're watching on YouTube,maybe hit the like button, the
subscribe button, leave acomment, check out my other
videos.
If you're listening as apodcast episode, well, thanks
for doing that.
If you're new and this is thefirst time you've ever stumbled
upon the anxious truth, well, Ihope you found it enjoyable.
I promise this channel of thispodcast isn't really about me.
It's about anxiety and anxietydisorders.
(23:24):
So check out the other stuffand, if you really dig what
you're hearing and you'relistening on apple podcast or
spotify, maybe leave a five-starrating or review to let people
know why you like it and thenother people get to listen to
the podcast and maybe get alittle help, and that's why I do
this to begin with.
So thanks for hanging out withme today for 20 something
minutes while I told you thiskind of silly story in a kind of
(23:45):
disorganized way.
I hope you got something out ofit.
I'll see you again in two weekswith the next podcast episode.
Thanks a lot.
See you later.
We'll see you next time.
I used to be so anxious that I was afraid to
leave the house.
I would have panic attacks atthe drop of a hat, full-blown
panic attacks.
I was so afraid that I couldn'tbe left alone for more than a
few minutes at a time.
But last week I got to dosomething that I've wanted to do
my entire life.
It was great, but when I wasreally struggling, when I was in
the grips of anxiety and panicand fear and agoraphobia and OCD
(00:23):
and depression, I thought thiswould be impossible.
I did not think I'd ever beable to do this and, as it turns
out, I was wrong.
So a bit of a change of pace.
This week I want to talk aboutsome of my own personal
experience in the hopes that itmight provide a bit of
encouragement.
If you're struggling withanxiety right now and you are
afraid that you will never getbetter or never be able to do
(00:44):
the things you really want to do, I'm here to tell you that
there's a really good chancethat you're as wrong as I was.
So let's get into it.
Back in the day and I mean, for25 years of my life, on and off,
I struggled with things likepanic disorder and agoraphobia
(01:06):
and OCD and depression.
I would have scary, repetitivethoughts about death and
existence and the nature ofreality.
I would be fixated not only onmy health and my death and my
existence, but everybody that Icared about in the world.
I was having panic attacks allthe time.
I became super fixated on how Ifelt.
I was always worried about whatmy body was doing and what
(01:28):
thoughts my mind was going tomake.
I couldn't experience regularemotions without them being
morphed instantly into fear orpanic.
I couldn't leave my house, Icouldn't be left alone.
I couldn't do any of the thingsthat I wanted or needed to do
in my life, and it was prettymiserable.
Now, that was not every day for25 years, but big giant chunks
(01:52):
of my life were kind of takenaway from me because of this
particular problem, which isreally, unfortunately, very
common in the West.
If you want to know the wholesordid story of the entire 25
years, I've actually written abook called An Anxiety Story,
which you can check out from mywebsite.
It's completely free.
Just download it as a PDF or anaudiobook and check it out.
But the bottom line is thatwhen I was struggling so much
with this particular problem, Ithought I would never be able to
(02:16):
do some of the things that I donow, and I definitely did not
think I was going to get to dothe thing that I finally got to
do last week.
So let's have a little bit ofstory time, but before we do
that, I want to remind you thatmy personal experience is not a
personal blueprint for you.
I am uncomfortable about tellingthis story, not because it's
(02:38):
embarrassing to me, but becauseI never want to hold myself up
as an example of exactly whatyou should do.
I would like to think I'm anexample of what principles of
recovery you might follow, butwhat exactly I did is not
exactly what you're going to do.
That's not fair to me for me toimply that.
And because I do write booksand I do have a YouTube channel
(03:01):
and I do have podcasts and I dohave things like workshops and I
am a therapist, I have to bevery clear here in saying that
what I never, ever want to do isbe the guy that posts the.
Look at me being free.
Pay me and I'll tell you how todo that too.
This is not about that at all.
I'm not even going to mentionsome of that stuff.
All I want to do here is tellyou that once upon a time I
(03:23):
wasn't sure I'd ever get to dowhat I just did and I was wrong.
And if you're thinking thatabout yourself and I understand
that and I get it you might bewrong too.
So let's get to the story.
When I was a kid, I always hadan interest in space and the
universe and I guess I was a bitof a nerd Still am.
I'm okay with that and everyyear when I was in elementary
school we would take a trip tothe local planetarium.
(03:45):
And one year I was probablyabout nine years old.
The guy working the projectorat the planetarium did a little
intro before he started the show, which was just about the night
sky typical grade schoolplanetarium stuff.
And I remember him startingwith hey, here's what the sky
looks like over your house rightnow, and it's true, that's what
was projected over our heads.
Then he said this is what itsky looks like over your house
(04:10):
right now, and it's true, that'swhat was projected over our
heads.
Then he said this is what itwould look like if we turn off
all the shopping malls.
And it got a little darker andthere were more sky, more stars
in the sky on the ceiling ofthis planetarium.
And he said and this is whatwill happen if we turn off all
the street lights?
And it got even darker andthere was more stars in the sky
artificial sky above my head.
Then he said this is what wouldhappen if we turn off the
(04:30):
lights at your school.
And it got a little darker andthere was even more stars in the
sky.
And finally he said this iswhat would happen making a joke
if we turn off all the lights atall the McDonald's.
And it got pitch black and theceiling of the planetarium was
absolutely filled with stars.
Now, I was born in Brooklyn,lived in Queens, grew up on Long
Island.
I'm, by all means, a New Yorkmetro area dude and we have a
(04:53):
huge amount of light pollutionhere.
We always have.
There's a giant light domesurrounding New York City, so I
had never known or seen a skylike that.
I had no idea that that's whatthe night sky actually looks
like.
Now, if you're watching orlistening to this and you live
in a place where you get to seethat on the regular, I'm super
jealous.
But at eight or nine years old,that left an indelible
(05:15):
impression upon me.
I was already interested in thesky and the stars and space and
all of those things and I justremember looking up just agape.
I couldn't believe that that'swhat the sky actually looked
like.
It was full of stars and thatday I sort of thought I got to
go somewhere where I'm going tosee this and for so many reasons
(05:37):
and I can get into a wholeother video about this I never
did until last week.
That was decades ago.
It was a long time ago.
If you're watching on YouTubeyou see the gray in my beard.
Last week I went into the middleof nowhere in Pennsylvania, to
an area in Potter County nearCherry Springs State Park in
(05:58):
Pennsylvania which is recognizedas an international dark sky
site.
It's the only one we have inthe US, I believe, east of the
Mississippi.
It's as dark as you could getin the eastern US and I am here
to tell you it's pretty dark.
It's like nothing I had everreally experienced before Now,
for somebody who was once highlyagoraphobic, who was constantly
(06:18):
worried about how they felt,who was certainly convinced that
I always had to be saved frommy own body, my own heartbeat,
my own breath, my own wobblylegs, my own scary thoughts, my
own emotions.
I used to interpret beingderealized or depersonalized,
that state of dissociation,common anxiety symptom.
I used to interpret that as thefact that I was disintegrating
or slipping away and I wasconvinced that I would need to
(06:40):
be saved or rescued and somebodywould have to come and get me
and prevent that from happening,that I would need to be saved
or rescued and somebody wouldhave to come and get me and
prevent that from happening.
So going out into the middle ofnothing, into the pitch dark,
so that you can look up and seethe actual night sky the way it
really exists, is a terrifyingproposition when you're super
anxious and you are afraid ofhow you will feel in any given
(07:02):
circumstance.
So for an agoraphobic, somebodywho suffered from panic
disorder or agoraphobia,somebody whose intrusive
thoughts OCD, if you will waslatched onto the idea that my
mind could literally sort ofblow itself up and disintegrate
when I got too anxious, somebodywho couldn't even experience
things like happiness or joy orexcitement without it instantly
(07:23):
morphing into panic, that wassuch a daunting task Back in the
day when I really struggled somuch I couldn't get in my car
and drive literally 60 secondsdown the block without winding
up in a blind panic and wantingto run back home and be saved.
So imagine driving seven hoursfrom where I am on Long Island
into the middle of nothing.
(07:44):
We want there to be nothing.
If you want to see sky, youwant to see stars, you need
there to be no people and nodevelopment and no streetlights
and no shopping malls andnothing like that.
You want it to be super dark,and last week I got to do that.
Now, if you're listening to thisas a podcast, I would urge you
to maybe pop on over to myYouTube channel, because I'm
going to overlay some of thepictures that I took and some of
(08:07):
the video from that event,because it was quite
breathtaking.
And last week I found myself inthe middle of Potter County,
outside of Cowdersport,pennsylvania, on a new moon,
with an absolutely perfectlyclear sky in the pitch dark, on
this really lovely farm thatthis couple operates that you
can go and enjoy the sky from.
(08:27):
And I looked up and there wasthat sky that I saw when I was
nine years old in theplanetarium, except this time it
was real.
The night sky is full of stars.
It's full.
There's no empty places.
There's so many stars you can'tpossibly count them.
You can see the Milky Way, thebackbone of night.
(08:48):
I have pictures.
I'm going to overlay them rightnow.
It was astounding.
It was something I waiteddecades and decades and decades
to see Now, admittedly not onlybecause of anxiety and fear,
just because of bad choices andnot making this sort of thing a
priority, but for a very largepercentage of my adult life,
(09:08):
when I had the ability to dothat sort of thing if I felt
like it, because you know, grownup and all that I didn't,
because I was worried that Iwould have to check in with how
I was feeling and what if Istarted to have scary thoughts
in the middle of these fieldsand there's no ambulances, and
how far is it to a hospital?
Ps, pretty far, although that'sactually not true.
Coudersport does even have itsown hospital, but I didn't know
(09:32):
that.
The point of it was being outin the middle of nowhere, away
from my safe place, far awayfrom my safe place, with no easy
escape and no rescue available,like no cell phone service, was
a terrifying thought.
Yet there I was and I want todo it again tomorrow.
I cannot wait to go back and dothat sort of thing again.
I got to experience what thesky actually looks like without
(09:52):
all the lights, something that Ihave wanted to do since I was a
kid and wasn't able to do Inlarge part in big chunks of my
adult life because I was tooworried about checking in on how
I felt first and thinking abouthow I might feel before I
actually went out andexperienced life.
(10:12):
So people are invariably goingto listen to this and think well
, what did you do?
Well, you can read the books.
You can go back and listen toall the other podcast episodes.
You can listen to theDisordered podcast.
I talk about that all the books.
You can go back and listen toall the other podcast episodes.
You can listen to DisorderedPodcast.
I talk about that all the timeLike the principles we use to
overcome anxiety disorders.
That's my bread and butter,that's what I talk about all the
time.
That's what I specialize in mytherapy practice.
(10:33):
So I cannot tell you exactly,step by step.
This is what I did to get mefrom so afraid that I was stuck
in my house to the middle ofnowhere, many years later.
Of course, that's true.
I'm always going to be honestabout the timeline.
But how did I go from one placeto the other?
How did I go from onecircumstance to another?
How did I overcome that?
What does that look like?
(10:55):
Well, I'll tell you that thebottom line was I had to
challenge the idea that I neededto run from myself.
I had to at least consider theidea that I needed to run from
myself.
I had to at least consider theidea that, although the thoughts
I was having were very scaryand disturbing the sensations I
was experiencing were very scaryand disturbing and the emotions
that I was experiencing werekind of overpowering I had to at
least consider the idea thatmaybe they were safe after all
(11:17):
and I could let them happen.
So I got here by justpracticing, intentionally being
triggered again and again andagain and again back in the day
when I was doing all of myrecovery work, and I learned
that I don't have to be afraidof myself anymore and that
translates into living a life,not just going out to see the
night sky, but living a dailylife like anybody would any
(11:39):
normal person might do, withoutever consulting anxiety.
I never check in to see if Imight be anxious.
If I do a thing I might.
I'm not immune to being anxious.
I'm not immune to feelingstress.
I'm not immune to a wide rangeof internal experiences because
I'm a human being.
But what does it look like to berecovered?
I am often asked.
It looks like being able to goout and do a thing that you've
(12:02):
wanted to do since you were akid, and never even once
thinking about because I don'thave to anymore.
What if I get anxious?
That's not a thing I have toask.
How am I feeling?
Am I going to be okay?
How is this going to make mefeel?
I never ask those questionsanymore, and I didn't ask those
questions last week.
I just got in the car and wentbecause I could and I knew that
(12:27):
it was finally time and I didn'twant to wait anymore.
So anxiety, while it's a partof every human life, never gets
consulted.
For me, that's what beingrecovered looks like.
So where are the obstacles?
Like what did I go through?
Well, last week, as any adultworking person, especially in
the West, where we overworkourselves and have ridiculous
(12:48):
expectations for the way we useour time as a working therapist,
I have a very full caseloadright.
I have many clients that I workwith on a weekly basis and I
don't want to miss thosesessions.
I like working with my clients,so in the three or four days
leading up to this little breakI was really working overtime to
try and move things around andsqueeze people in and I was
jamming a lot of sessions into ashort amount of time and, you
(13:09):
know, to try and make sure Iwasn't missing all of my clients
I wanted to try and accommodateas many as I can.
I had to pack.
I never did astrophotographybefore so I was trying to learn
how to do that, how to take goodpictures of the night sky.
There was all kinds of stuffthat was kind of piled up on top
of me.
So leading up to this trip wherewe got up at the crack of dawn
(13:30):
and started driving becauseyou've got to get out of New
York City and if you live aroundhere you know what that means A
seven-hour trip becomes anine-hour trip if you wind up
sitting on the Cross BronxExpressway.
So I was exhausted, I wasstressed, I was trying to do too
many things at one time and Iknew I was going to get up the
next morning, probably with verylittle sleep, and start driving
for seven hours into the middleof nowhere.
(13:52):
And guess what, while at onepoint I did have a bit of a
stress meltdown because I wasjust at the end of my rope the
night before we left even then Iwas not considering oh, what if
this happens while we're in themiddle of a field in
Pennsylvania and there's noambulance I never the thought,
never entered my mind.
So I was able to work throughall of the stress and the
(14:13):
associated emotions andexperiences that came along with
that and still get in the carand go on the trip without
really thinking about it Whilewe were driving.
We were driving through themiddle of nothing.
We start on Long Island andgoing through New York City
where it's very denselypopulated, and if you need to be
saved, I guess you could besaved, but at no point am I ever
thinking I hope I don't need tobe saved.
Of course everybody thinks thatevery day, but I don't think it
(14:36):
any more than any human beingdoes.
And as we got further intocentral New Jersey and things
got more and more rural, I justhappened to notice that like wow
, back in the day this wouldhave been such a scary place for
me to drive alone or otherwise.
And then, as we got intoPennsylvania and sort of exited
the Poconos region and thingsstarted to get really rural,
when we started to head sort ofnorthwest up into the northwest
(14:58):
corner of the state where it'ssuper dark and very sparsely
populated, it got super isolatedand super rural.
And if you're watching onYouTube and, by the way, if
you're listening as a podcast,I'll put a link to the YouTube
video in the podcast description.
I'll show you some of thefootage that I took while
driving through these reallydeserted roads.
You are in the middle ofdriving through just thousands
(15:21):
and thousands of acres of stateforest and undeveloped land
where there might be a littlebit of a hunting lodge here and
there, or maybe you pass a fewpeople who have built houses
next to each other, and thennothing again for another five
or 10 minutes and there's nocell phone service and your
phone only says SOS on it, whichwould be super triggering for a
very anxious person.
(15:41):
So there was the drive throughthe middle of nothing.
It was hot and humid.
So when we got there I was inthe middle of nothing, in the
heat and the humidity, andfeeling really uncomfortable.
Back in the day that discomfortwould have triggered panic and
fear and my mind would havestarted racing and I wouldn't
have been able to handle it andI would have wanted to run home
or be saved.
But all I did this time wassweat, because that's all you
(16:04):
can do in the heat and thehumidity, and I carried my stuff
around the campsite and Istarted setting up camera gear
and I was a little bit nervousbecause I wanted to get it right
, because I never had theopportunity to see that sky and
while I wanted to certainly lookup and actually see it with my
eyes, I also wanted to make surethat I got some really good
pictures of it so I couldremember it and have something
(16:25):
to like take with me as we left.
So I was a little bit stressedthat, as a novice to
astrophotography, I would messthat up.
So I was just kind of loopingthrough some of the things and
checking the camera, make sureit was right.
I was doing a bunch of testing,so there was demand on me.
But at the same time I was alsoable to recognize that I was in
a really lovely place and I'llshow you guys, if you're
(16:45):
watching on YouTube, some of thepictures that I took of this
beautiful environment that I wasin and, as opposed to being
completely fixated on the factthat we were in a remote,
sparsely populated area, I wasable to enjoy the fact that we
were in a remote, sparselypopulated area.
I was able to recognize that itwas dead quiet and that was
really great.
After a while I was reallysuper happy that there really
(17:07):
wasn't much in the way of cellphone service.
I didn't want to be contacted,there was nothing I needed to
connect to and nobody I neededto talk to.
So the difference between backthen and now was the things that
would have been supertriggering I was able to notice
as former triggers, because youknow that anxiety experience is
going to stay with me forever.
It's part of my life.
But instead of seeing them astriggers, I was able to see them
(17:30):
as former triggers and actuallyappreciate the situation that I
was in.
What was once terrifying wasactually, this time, really
enjoyable, amazing how thatworks.
And then, ultimately, I wasable to look up at that sky when
it finally got dark andexperience some really big
emotions.
Remember, this is somethingthat left a mark on me in a good
(17:51):
way while I was a kidelementary school, eight, nine
years old and here I am, decadeslater, actually seeing that sky
, and I thought of the people inmy life that aren't here
anymore, that I would have lovedto be able to share that
experience with.
I should have been able to getto do that with those people,
but I didn't, and now they'renot here and I'm never going to
be able to do that.
(18:12):
It was very emotional at times.
Sitting in the silence underthat enormous canopy of
unlimited stars is going tobring some stuff up.
I don't care who you are, butinstead of being afraid of those
powerful feelings, I got toappreciate those powerful
feelings and claim them for myown and actually fully have them
and know that it's part of whatmakes me human.
(18:32):
It's part of being able to beon this planet until we're not
and experience the full range ofour humanity.
I had the privilege of doingthat in an absolute lovely place
that I want to go back to today, in this amazing situation that
I dreamed and thought about fordecades and decades and was
finally in.
So I think the bottom line hereand I don't want to get too
(18:55):
poetic about it because I'm nottrying to be performative here
Again this is not about like, oh, look at me dancing and happy,
and like you could be this too.
If you pay me, I don't care.
If you never pay me a damnthing.
You don't have to buy a book,you don't have to buy a workshop
, you don't ever have to be atherapy client, I don't care.
But if you listen to me tellthis story and maybe look at
some of the pictures in thevideo that I'm overlaying on top
(19:15):
of it, and you can find alittle bit of encouragement,
because you're also afraid thatyou'll never, ever be able to do
that, because the thoughts thatyou're having and the fears
that you're experiencing feellike you'll never be able to
overcome them or challenge them.
Well, I used to think that too.
Back in those days, I wasconstantly asking am I okay?
Am I okay?
(19:35):
Am I okay?
And to some degree, every humanbeing asks am I okay every day
in some way.
But really anxious people askit constantly and many people
will ask well, I guess recoverylooks like going out into the
middle of nowhere and looking atthe stars and not caring, and
that means you learned to knowthat you are okay.
(19:57):
But really, what I learnedthrough intentionally facing my
fears and opening myself up tolearning from those experiences
is I did not learn that theanswer to am I okay?
Is yes.
I actually learned that I neverhad to ask that question to
begin with.
That's what a recovered lifelooks like.
(20:18):
You learn that that's not aquestion that you have to keep
asking.
That was never the rightquestion.
It's a question that youranxious mind will insist you
keep asking.
But one of the things I mightencourage you today, if you're
struggling, is what would happenif you stopped asking that
question because you recognizethat it's actually not a
question that even needs to beasked to begin with.
(20:38):
Might that put you one stepcloser to standing in a field
looking at the night sky orwhatever it is.
Your goals are and back in theday, some of my goals were
literally just being able topick up my kids from school,
which was not even a mile frommy house Goals change as we
recover and we get better and wego back to living the lives
that we want to live.
(20:59):
So, regardless of where you aretoday, if you are feeling like
you will never possibly overcomethis, because it's impossible
to move through these reallydifficult feelings, or it's
impossible to tolerate thingslike panic, or it is clearly not
the right thing to just letscary thoughts alone.
I have to talk myself out ofthem.
I have to argue with them.
(21:19):
I was there too, but now I'mnot, and that's just because I
opened myself to the possibilitythat following that fear as
powerful and real as that fearwas was probably not a good idea
.
And once I accepted that maybethat wasn't the best idea and I
started to do things in adifferent way, well, things
began to slowly change.
(21:41):
So, again, I was really a littlebit reticent to make this
episode today and talk aboutthis, because I tend not to want
to share my personalexperiences too liberally,
because that's part of the sortof social media influencer
playbook and I don't want toplay by that playbook.
I only tell you the story tolet you know that it is possible
to get better, and I used tothink that I couldn't do it
(22:01):
either.
So if you're thinking thatthere is actually hope for you,
I cannot tell you exactly how todo it in a YouTube video or a
podcast episode.
I can't even do it in 300podcast episodes, but I can at
least give you someencouragement.
People do get better.
I'm one of them and you couldbe one of them too.
So thanks for hanging in thereand, I guess, letting me indulge
this a little bit.
(22:21):
I wasn't sure whether I shouldshare it, but people seem to
feel like it would be useful tohear it.
And if you're watching onYouTube, I hope you're enjoying
the videos and the pictures thatI'm overlaying over the top of
my voice.
And, again, if you're listeningas a podcast episode, I'll put
the link in the description sothat you can go watch the video
if you want to see the picturesand that sort of stuff.
So that's it.
That's episode.
I guess it's episode 322 of theAnxious Truth in the books.
(22:43):
I hope you found it helpful orencouraging.
I hate to say inspiring.
I don't really mean to beinspiring or aspirational, but,
if nothing else, validating,because I used to struggle just
like you, and now I'm not, so Idon't think I'm special.
I did it and I suspect thatmost people will be able to do
it if they find their own way.
(23:04):
So thanks for hanging out today.
If you're watching on YouTube,maybe hit the like button, the
subscribe button, leave acomment, check out my other
videos.
If you're listening as apodcast episode, well, thanks
for doing that.
If you're new and this is thefirst time you've ever stumbled
upon the anxious truth, well, Ihope you found it enjoyable.
I promise this channel of thispodcast isn't really about me.
It's about anxiety and anxietydisorders.
(23:24):
So check out the other stuffand, if you really dig what
you're hearing and you'relistening on apple podcast or
spotify, maybe leave a five-starrating or review to let people
know why you like it and thenother people get to listen to
the podcast and maybe get alittle help, and that's why I do
this to begin with.
So thanks for hanging out withme today for 20 something
minutes while I told you thiskind of silly story in a kind of
(23:45):
disorganized way.
I hope you got something out ofit.
I'll see you again in two weekswith the next podcast episode.
Thanks a lot.
See you later.
We'll see you next time.
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