May 7, 2025 • 41 mins
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Do you find yourself running from difficult emotions or trying desperately to control them? Many people with anxiety disorders develop a deep fear of their own emotions, believing they're too intense or unbearable to experience fully. In this episode of The Anxious Truth, Drew is joined by therapist Joanna Hardis to explore the concept of "emotional allowability" – learning to coexist with our emotions rather than fighting against them.
They discuss why trying to control emotions is ultimately futile, how the stories we tell ourselves about emotions cause more suffering than the emotions themselves, and practical steps for becoming more comfortable with the full range of emotional experiences. Whether you struggle with panic, anxiety, OCD, or simply find yourself fearing emotions, this conversation offers a refreshing perspective on what it means to be human and how to free yourself from the exhausting cycle of emotional resistance.
No quick fixes or magic solutions here—just honest conversation about the reality of emotional experiences and how to move toward greater psychological flexibility. If you've ever wondered why your emotions feel so threatening or what might happen if you actually allowed yourself to feel them, this episode is for you.
Learn more about Joanna and her work at joannahardis.com
For full show notes on this episode:
https://theanxioustruth.com/316
Support The Anxious Truth: If you find the podcast helpful and want to support my work, you can buy me a coffee. Other ways to support my work like buying a book or signing up for a low cost workshop can be found on my website. None of this is never required, but always appreciated!
Interested in doing therapy with me? For more information on working with me directly to overcome your anxiety, follow this link.
Disclaimer: The Anxious Truth is not therapy or a replacement for therapy. Listening to The Anxious Truth does not create a therapeutic relationship between you and the host or guests of the podcast. Information here is provided for psychoeducational purposes. As always, when you have questions about your own well-being, please consult your mental health and/or medical care providers. If you are having a mental health crisis, always reach out immediately for in-person help.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Anxious people are often afraid of their emotions
and they try really hard to notfeel them or to control them or
to get away from them.
So this week, on the AnxiousTruth, my friend Joanna Hardis
is here and we're going to talkabout the idea or the concept of
emotional allowability.
So let's get to it.
Hello everybody, welcome backto the Anxious Truth.
(00:25):
This is the podcast and theYouTube channel where we talk
about all things anxiety,anxiety disorders and anxiety
recovery and, I guess, mentalhealth in general.
Anyway, I am Drew Linsalata,creator and host of the Anxious
Truth podcast and YouTubechannel.
I am a therapist practicing inthe area of anxiety and anxiety
disorders in the state of NewYork in the US of A.
I am a former sufferer of panicdisorder, agoraphobia, OCD,
(00:46):
depression for many years of mylife, on and off, but better now
for a very long time.
I'm an author on this topic, apsychoeducator, an advocate and
clearly a guy with a microphonethat hosts this podcast and
another one called Disordered,which you'll find at
disorderedfm.
So if you like the anxioustruth, you'll love Disordered.
(01:06):
This week we're going to talkabout the concept or the idea of
emotional allowability.
I'm going to be joined by myfriend, joanna Hardest.
Joanna is a very well-respectedand long-experienced therapist
practicing in Cleveland, ohio,cleveland Rocks.
Joanna specializes in thetreatment of anxiety and OCD as
well.
She is a colleague, she is myfriend.
I am proud to call her a friend.
I trust her.
She is not a huckster, she'snot just trying to sell stuff.
She knows of what she speaksand she speaks often about the
(01:29):
concept of emotionalallowability.
Now she kind of took it out ofsort of the relationship sphere
as an alternative to the idea ofemotional availability.
But learning to be emotionallyallowable, which is accepting
that you're going to haveemotions, even really difficult
ones that are hard to feel, isreally important.
(01:49):
In our community, right In apopulation full of people who
are struggling with chronic anddistorted anxiety, who often
learn to become really afraid oftheir emotions because they
instantly morph into anxiety orfear or even panic, the idea of
becoming more open to emotionalexperiences, especially intense
and difficult ones seemsdaunting.
So we're going to talk aboutthe idea of emotional
(02:10):
allowability and how the ideathat we can prevent or control
emotions is kind of silly anyway, because we just can't, at
least not in our view.
So we will get to Joanna in asecond.
Just a quick reminder that theAnxious Truth is more than just
this podcast episode or thisYouTube channel.
There's a ton of more othergoodies and resources, most of
which are free, and if there isa cost with any of them, it's a
(02:30):
pretty low cost.
There's books and workshops andthings of that nature and all
the other podcast episodes andmy social media stuff, and I'm
knocking stuff over on my deskat my website.
Go check it out, it's all attheanxioustruthcom.
Avail yourself of all thegoodies free and otherwise.
Just wanted to remind you to dothat.
And yeah, let's get Joanna on.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
We will talk about emotional allowability and then
I will come back in the end andwe'll wrap the whole things up.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Bruh, what's up, bruh ?
Bruh?
I call Joanna bruh, she callsme bruh.
It's probably not right, butthat's what we do anyway.
Emotional allowability let'sget right into it.
I want to dive right in becausethis has been like a little bit
of a pet peeve for both of usfor a long time.
In our little rant sessionsthat we conduct sometimes, yeah,
the idea and I understand likepeople who are really agitated,
(03:18):
suffering, afraid they're not ina good place, they just want
relief.
They often feel like they'retrying to control their emotions
.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
They should be able to control their emotions.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Are they controllable ?
Speaker 2 (03:31):
No, of course not.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
No, well, let's see, let's okay, let's, let me think
about that.
No, we can't control, like youknow, emotion, a lot of the
times emotion, you know we mightfeel something, we're going to
feel something.
That being said, though, we cancontrol how we respond and if
we're going to amplify theemotion or if we're going to try
(03:55):
and do something which mightmake the emotion, like, dial it
down.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
So I do believe that once we feel it, we can make it
worse or make it better.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
Yeah, which I think makes sense, and sometimes I
think that the target thatpeople accidentally start to
shoot at is or maybe it's abetter way to describe it is if
somebody finds that they'reexperiencing an emotion that
they don't really like.
They might even be afraid of it, because you know as well as I
do, in our population peoplewould start to fear their
emotions.
Sometimes they will declarefailure just because they had
(04:27):
that emotion, like they shouldhave had some sort of way to
engineer themselves or theirenvironment or their day so that
that emotion would never gettriggered right, right, right,
right.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
You see it a lot with parents oh, that's a good point
, you're right yes, parents thatlike I should always be on, or
I should be happy, or my childshould never see me upset or
anxious or sad or human, or or,you know, feeling a bad, like a
bad emotion.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Yeah, yeah, that's a really good point.
So something or other, that weget trapped into this cycle
where it's like, oh, if we do itright, those emotions we don't
like, whatever they happen to be, it doesn't matter won't ever
get triggered, we can actuallyprevent ourselves from making
that emotion.
Yeah right, I always say Ithink emotions are like thoughts
we don't get to pick.
(05:18):
We could get to pick what wethink about.
We never get to pick what wedon't think about, and I love
that.
Yeah, With emotions.
Like you don't get to pick tonot have an emotion, I don't
even think you get to pick tohave one.
To be honest with you.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
I don't, I really don't either.
Yeah, and I think it's hardbecause, like getting back to
parents, like same is true foryour kids.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
I mean, oh right, like you, should they run.
You mean the trap becomes likeoh, my kids should also always
be happy and always be positiveand always.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
Well, yeah Cause, think about a lot of parents
struggle when their kids areupset and think about it Like
how many times and I you knowI'm not saying like I like
seeing my kids upset, not at allbut like how many times do we
swoop in as parents Like, oh mygosh, my kid's upset.
Like I have to swoop in asparents like, oh my gosh, my
kid's upset.
Like I have to swoop in andmake it better or take away
their distress or or fix it.
(06:10):
Or like we have a hard timeseeing our kids upset too and we
think our kids should always behappy or it's our job to keep
make our kids happy yeah, orsometimes I think it comes out
we're getting deep.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
We are getting deep and like, as a, I get it.
I'm gonna call your kids,though like, did your mom try to
make you feel better?
Speaker 2 (06:32):
she just let you feel bad no, they'd be like she's a
bitch, she's horrible.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Don't be friends with my mom.
I think, as parents, I get it I.
I have two girls, like you do.
You don't want to just standthere and watch them struggle at
all no yeah, but I think andthen we don't want ourselves to
struggle, but I think part ofsometimes what happens in that
emotional control thing is youalso try to argue the not argue
but like convince the person outof the emotion.
(06:57):
Yeah Well, like oh, but you'reso lucky and you have so much to
be grateful for and there's somuch going on, and like that was
so much fun yesterday, remember.
So like you're trying toconvince the person that the
emotion they're having should goaway, or this, yeah, totally or
problem solve it yeah, weirdbecause it leaves us having this
weird like toxic relationshipwith our own emotions yeah, yeah
(07:19):
, versus, just like.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
Can we just learn to coexist with them?
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
And coexist with them , which helps us.
Then let other people coexistwith theirs too.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
We are, and we are going beyond.
Just like you getting better,but like we getting better.
I agree with that.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
You know what?
I was in a conversation not toolong ago where there was just
some conflict going on in agroup and which which happens
between people sometimes, andthere was a lot of argument over
whether what?
Why is she upset?
Why is he upset?
He doesn't have a right to beupset.
So I think you're right theunderstanding that, like hey
hang on a second here you don'tget to decide if another person
should or should not be feelinga particular emotion.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
Right.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Cause they just happen.
No matter what there's just,they're just going to happen.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Right and oftentimes I mean this is sort of my lens
and it's kind of annoying forpeople probably, but like when
we're distress intolerant forsome people, not always, but
like it makes it.
If we can't handle how we feelinside, it may make it harder to
tolerate when someone else isfeeling upset.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
Yeah, it's probably a direct link there, I bet.
I bet there's a correlationthere.
If you have a hard time withyour own emotions, you may be
really uncomfortable whensomeone else is feeling upset.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Yeah, it's messy.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
Yeah, and it speaks a little bit to also the whole
and we'll get to it.
We'll get to the concept ofemotional allowability, because
I think it's a great, great,great concept.
That's in your book actually,but sometimes it even comes down
to the whole.
But emotions but why do we wantto control or prevent or
preempt the emotions?
Because sometimes they'rereally hard.
They're really hard, they'relike really difficult.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Nobody likes to feel them.
Well, I mean, you know, we liketo feel the good emotions, but
we definitely don't like to feelthe bad ones, right?
But how many times do we justmake it so much worse?
Speaker 1 (09:14):
You know well, that's one of those principles that
you and I, we landed on those along time ago.
Actually, people way smarterthan us landed on them about
3000 years ago.
Yes, so I can't claim any, youknow.
Oh, let's just call it a theoryand write a book about it.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Um, oh gosh.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
I'm going to say, I'm going to get you started in a
little rant anyway.
Um yeah, and we do make it somuch worse.
Like this emotion is here rightnow, so like it would be way
better if I kind of let it playitself out the way it's supposed
to, and whatever that means.
Maybe it's crying, or maybeit's, you know, journaling, or
maybe it's having a reallydifficult talk with someone that
you care about, a friend or afamily member or something.
(09:50):
Instead of trying to make it goaway, or like I don't hear you,
or like I'm going to push itaway, let me choose happiness
instead.
Let me go do something.
Allowability.
I love this.
If you're not going to controlyour emotions, then how do you?
Allowability is great concept.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
I know, but it doesn't sound like good for a
shirt.
It's not going to like sell mea million books like let them
theory.
Maybe we can like no one'sgoing to be tattooing that shit
on their arms.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
I got some space in my left arm.
Maybe I'll throw it on there, Idon't know.
I'll help you.
You'll wear buds, you know it'sfine.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
I will do it.
Well, it came from my like.
It came from, of course,something that annoyed me
Speaking of resisting this ideaof like emotional availability.
Idea of like emotionalavailability, because every
because I hear so much um,either personally or
professionally, like I wantsomeone who's emotionally
(10:53):
available, either people wouldsay, like my parents weren't
emotionally available, mypartner's not emotionally
available, that makes no fuckingsense to me.
What that is like?
I don't know what that means,and I'm sure I've said it, like
because things that areavailable, they're like I think
of.
Like my library book isavailable for pickup, my my to
(11:17):
go order is available, it'sready.
Like emotions aren't available.
Like no, it doesn't make anysense they're there.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
No matter whether you think they're available or not,
they're there right, yourbreathing isn't of, we don't say
your respiratory available yeahyour, your immune system
available.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
It's just there, like it, so it makes.
No, it's one of those thingsthat we say but we don't think
about if it makes any sense.
So that's where it came from.
I felt like the more, the morething, the more appropriate
thing is, like we want to beallowable for emotions, which
means like we want to be able to, to experience the alphabet of
(12:01):
them, not just the, not just theones that are more pleasant to
experience.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
Yeah, that makes a good point.
I guess in that relationshipthat's because we hear I think I
hear it most often there Like Ineed somebody that's
emotionally available is reallykind of a relationship or dating
thing in a lot of times.
Yeah, but so what does somebodyif we did?
Okay, fine, let's say you wantto use the term allowable which
are available, which I agreeseems ridiculous because they're
there or not, whether or notyou want to be available for
them.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
Right.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
So what does that really mean in a relationship
sense?
I think it tends to mean like Iwant somebody that, when I'm
having emotions, will will letme have them or support me or
validate them.
I don't know what it means, butis that emotional?
Or or are they looking for likeno, no, no, I want somebody who
displays their emotions.
I want a partner that isemotional so I can see their
(12:47):
emotions.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
Right.
I think people want someone who.
I think you've got it.
I think, when people say it,they want someone who not.
I think both that can expressand feel the range of emotion
and be there when they andtolerate when they experience
(13:13):
the range of emotion.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
And that's emotional availability, which really is
just emotion.
Yeah, this is just allowability, because in a relationship,
you're both going to haveemotions, whether you want it,
whether you're available forthem or not, they're going to be
there.
So how much am I going to runfrom them, hide them, suppress
them?
Or ask you to suppress yours,right, yours make mine, and I
don't like mine, you know.
Or yours are harsh in my mellow, so your emotions are ruining
(13:37):
my day oh my gosh, yes yeah, toomuch right yeah, you're too
much.
So I think the point you madeearlier was pretty good, like if
you get good, if we get moreemotionally allowable, then we
get better at being allowable toother people's emotion or open
to other people's emotions tooright, yeah hmm, what about now
we're?
we're going to go off on alittle bit of tangent, but what
(13:57):
it made me think was emotionalintelligence starts this down
like one of those ridiculousterms too.
Then, like it's emotionalintelligence, like and I know
there's books written that aboutthis, and I know that there are
people right now they'regetting a little bit angry at me
because don't be coming aftermy emotional intelligence.
But is it intelligence or is itjust, again, allowability?
(14:17):
Like the person who'semotionally intelligent
experience, you know, seems tobe good at experiencing their
emotions without maybe gettingcarried away by them or, you
know, making rash decisions.
So does that make thememotionally intelligent or just
non-resistant?
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Right, like what is emotional intelligence.
Is that just allowability?
Speaker 1 (14:37):
I think it's pretty good.
I wasn't expecting to go here,but if I was pressed for an
answer, I think emotionalintelligence is not actually an
achievement or a skill.
It's actually doing less aboutyour emotions because you're
just allowing them to beorganically.
It's not a special skill thatpeople develop where they learn
to manipulate them and read intothem properly and somehow
(14:58):
process them correctly, likethere's a correct way.
I mean, there might be anincorrect way, but there's
definitely no correct way.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
I never read the book .
Speaker 1 (15:06):
Yeah, there's a ton of books on emotional
intelligence and it was a hottopic.
It's, it always is, but it wasa hot topic for a little while.
But it's allowed again.
It's allowability orflexibility yeah.
So for somebody who's listeningto us who I mean our audience is
our audience and they have areally hard time.
And you know, it's somethingthat I didn't expect to find
when I turned on a microphonefor the first time 11 years ago
(15:28):
however long, it was 15 yearsago, sorry, yeah, 15 years ago I
started talking to a dumbmicrophone about anxiety, but it
was 2010.
Yeah, so I did not expect tohear I mean, I, it was my
experience that I was an anxiousperson.
Every, every emotion did turninto fear.
Hear, I mean, it was myexperience that I was an anxious
person.
Every emotion did turn into fearinstantly.
(15:48):
It would instantly morph intoanxiety, panic and fear, but I
never thought of the whole like,oh, I'm afraid of my emotions,
but many people listening to usright now are they're very
afraid to get too emotionalbecause they feel like they're
going to be broken by it oroverwhelmed by it or somehow
swept away.
They won't be able to controlthemselves when they get too
emotional, I don't know.
(16:08):
So how did they become moreallowable then?
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Well, you know, part of it is that's a great question
.
Part of it is, you know, Ithink, learn.
You know learning emotionregulation skills.
I mean, I think part of it isunderstanding that, for the
(16:35):
experience of an emotion, wecan't control what shows up.
Right, I'm feeling, you knowyou're going to feel an emotion,
but then we do have the abilityto control if it's, if we're
going to dial it up or dial itback.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Yeah, and it probably starts with with the thing you
just said, which is we don't getto decide not to feel an
emotion.
They're going to show upwhenever they do, organically.
And if you are going to hang onlike hot death to the idea that
you should be able to preventthe emotions you like, then
you're going to start off on thebad foot, because the minute it
shows up, you're ready and likestomping your feet and like
gritting your teeth and like, oh, why is this?
(17:17):
This shouldn't be here, Ishouldn't know what's wrong with
me.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
Exactly.
And now your discomfort levelgets agitated up.
Yes, yeah, yeah, and I thinkyou know and people will say,
well, you know, well, it justlike it comes and it's a hundred
and it's like, okay, well, itmay feel like that, and
certainly some people are moresensitive and so they may.
You know.
So some people trajectory, theymay bounce higher quicker and
come down faster or slower, sothat trajectory is different.
(17:49):
But you know, we all have thatability to, based on our
behaviors, dial up or dial back.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
So it is a question of like okay, well, once you
notice what's going on, thenwhat are you doing?
So, if you are paying a ton ofattention that time and
attention thing that we alwaystalk about if you are focusing
on how much you hate, how you'refeeling, or like, oh my God,
(18:22):
this sucks.
Why does this always happen tome?
How long is this going to lastIs my fuck, my day is ruined.
Boom, it goes up.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
Yeah, there's also that that fear sometimes, at
least in our population, where,well, if it's a really difficult
emotion that I don't like, orit's really scary, it's really
just hard to deal with.
If I don't run away from it,it's just going to keep going up
, like there's no ceiling tothis emotion.
So like, ah, if I fully letmyself feel this emotion, it
(18:51):
might go into some sort of likered zone and break me, or or
never end, or Right?
Speaker 2 (18:56):
That's the story of the emotion.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
Yeah, yeah.
That's not the emotion itself,you're right, that's the belief
about or the story around theemotion Right right, right Right
.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
And so you know, I think, then it's like, okay, I'm
feeling it, yeah, but then wehave to like, zoom out too, like
then it's the coexisting withit, like, yes, I'm feeling it
and you know it's the choicepoint.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
Yeah, and I think there probably is.
This is a hard one because youknow you can't really measure it
.
But if you hooked a thousand ofus up to all kinds of
electrodes and stuff andmeasured the physiology while we
were experiencing verydifficult emotions, I bet we
would see a very narrow range.
Yes, there would be a wideexpression like heart rate and
galvanic skin response andrespiration rate and all that
(19:43):
stuff, but it's there's no sense.
It's not like oh my goodness,those people over on the end
their heart rates went to 300and they blew up.
There's no such thing.
There's actually a limit to theamount that we can
physiologically experience.
Then it becomes the perceptionof like oh no, this time it's
too intense.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Right, that's the story.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
Yeah, but it never is .
There's no such thing as justnever ending intensity.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
Exactly Right.
That's the story of it.
So if, if it's like you knowand this is where you know being
able to practice what you knowin non, practice with you know
in non, I mean during thosetimes, it is being able to say,
okay, you look, you can doanything for 15, 30 seconds and
(20:34):
they're always going to be theyes butters.
And like so there's always goingto be a yes butter, but you can
always do something for 15, 30seconds.
So you can like can you, whenyou're feeling that way, still
zoom out and say what is thenext right step for me?
Because if I stay in my headand I focus, it is going to dial
(21:00):
up.
So if I, what can you know todial it back down, I have to.
What is the next best step?
And that may be what.
What was I doing before thishappened?
And go do that.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
And it may be 15 seconds, fine.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
And then we get to that paradox of like the more
you try to dial it down or denyit, the more it's going to feel
like it gets more and moreintense.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Well, we're not trying to deny, we're just
trying to like, do the next,like just go do it, do it.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
Maybe right now I just have to be angry.
Okay, there's a, there's a lotI, I, to me there's a burden
that's lifted when somebody canreach the conclusion Like, I
guess, right now I'm just goingto be angry, or just right now
I'm just not going to be angry,or just right now.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
I'm just not going to like myself very much, okay.
Well, go be angry, and youstill need to live life.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
Right.
Even if living life was justdeciding to sit on the floor and
breathe or whatever you want todo, that's okay.
That's still living life.
But I like the idea of thestory of the emotion.
If I get caught up in the storyof the emotion, I'm never going
to be able to feel like I canhandle this emotion.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
No, and that's dialing it up.
Anytime you plug into the story, you're going to dial it up.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
Yeah, and I think it's so.
If you're going to learn to beemotional, there's a couple of I
think there's a couple ofbeliefs that get challenged in
the idea of emotionalallowability.
Number one I like how youmentioned the yes but there's
always a yes but.
And if you're listening and youwant to say yeah, but this is
where, like, we hit the limitsof what we can learn in a
podcast or on a YouTube video,right, that's when you spend
time working with an actualhelper to investigate where yeah
(22:33):
but comes from and how to getpast it.
But there's there's the beliefthat like no, no, no, my
emotions are more intense.
Or another belief is but I aminherently, structurally
incapable of handling them.
And I think the third one islike, but wouldn't I fix
something I don't like?
That's the mastery argument orthe mastery belief.
I should just be able to turnthe right knobs, right, it's a
(22:55):
problem.
I fix a problem, don't I?
So those three, those are threereally challenging things that
you have to challenge to becomemore emotionally allowable.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
Yes, and you know cause there's always the yes
butters, and you know I wouldsay sometimes they're arguing
with the content.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
Oh yes, Because the emotion over this thing, but
that's really important.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
Oh yeah, great, and the content isn't what we're
talking about.
I want it, like you know, andagain, your point about this is
we're working with a therapistis really important, because
we're not like the contentdoesn't matter.
This is the process that that Iwant you know that.
That is really importantbecause my guess is those people
, regardless of the content,they're, yes, butting.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
Yeah, you're probably right, and but the content
often does drive the yes but theresistance there.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
But this is my health we're talking about, but this
is my kids we're talking about.
That's a good point, yeah, butit doesn't matter.
Yeah, the content can beimportant without automatically
assuming that the emotion is theproblem.
The emotion is really just areflection of something that's
important to you, right?
So I'm like, okay, well, well,it can.
It's, it's allowed to beimportant, but it still doesn't
(24:10):
mean that you get to manipulateor stop or control the emotion.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
Right, exactly, and the process is still what
happens when you hit somethingthat that really is challenging,
you know, and it's like, oh you, it's like you find a way to
resist it.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
Yeah, and even when that resistance strategy or
being emotionally unallowable orunavailable or whatever
whatever you want to sayemotionally unallowable is
pointless because it's thereanyway, Right, yeah, so there's
no point in.
It's like the I can't accept myanxiety.
Well, I can't allow my emotions, but they're there anyway.
Wouldn't it seem like the bestmove is to try to open up to
(24:53):
that experience a little bitmore and say well, since they're
coming anyway, I'm just goingto have to learn how to get
better at having them,regardless of what the content
is or what the context is?
That they appear in the processof being emotional is still
something you have to learn howto do.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
Right, yeah, and you know I spent many years in this.
Yes, budding, I still findmyself there a lot and like you
gotta have, you gotta be bathingin self-compassion too.
Like it's like like approachingit with a lot of curiosity.
(25:27):
I would say Like, if you findyourself listening and you're
like, oh, this is kind of meLike really trying to, you know,
like giving yourself grace,because my guess is this pattern
developed, you know, for areason, and it's adaptive and
(25:49):
there's probably a lot of fear,obviously there's tons of fear,
and and so to really approach itwith grace and compassion and
curiosity and and and you know,think about, okay, this is
versus judgment, and like, oh mygosh, how so fucked up, which
(26:11):
is how I always think of myself.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
Actually it's you know, and I'm fortunate to call
you a friend.
You are pretty self-critical.
You go there pretty quick.
You're pretty self-deprecatingbut, so there's the.
I want to resist the experienceof the emotion itself, and then
I want to completely deny myability to be worthy or capable
or I'm just going to call it apersonal failure not only to
have the emotion but to fail tohandle it.
(26:35):
And you're right If you don't.
And you know what we all justarrived here.
That comes, who said thatthat's the CFT guy, compassion
focused RV guy, guy, like what,if we just agree that, yeah, I
think that might have been it.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
I have the book I'm reading the book.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
I haven't finished it yet, but, like I love the idea
that, well, you just arrivedhere.
Well, what's wrong with me?
Why do I get carried with myway, with my emotions?
Why can't I handle it?
Why can't I let go?
Why, well, you just arrivedhere?
There's about a billionvariables that put you right
here.
Let's start where you are andlike work forward, right.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
So yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
Yeah, biology and culture and like environment and
all of that stuff, like lessonsthat you learned, experiences,
like there's a ton of thingsthat got you to be emotionally
unallowable.
But okay, so now let's work onit.
How's that?
Speaker 2 (27:20):
Right and none of us, let's remember, none of us, I
don't think, certainly not.
Our generation grows uplearning how to experience
emotions, so it's not like weever learned this stuff.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
I think you're right.
You know the only person.
Yeah, I want to.
I don't want to likeovergeneralize, right?
We all do seem to talk aboutthis Like it seems like too many
people will say how come no oneever taught me this?
For it to be coincidence,however, that's not scientific.
You know, we talked about itFrickin Mr Rogers.
Mr Rogers would talk aboutemotions and stuff.
Remember Mr Rogers?
(28:02):
I mean, he was a legend, right?
So when we were kids, boringgrowing up well, mr Rogers was
definitely an acquired taste,but there were, there were
places where you might get thosehints.
And if you grew up in ahousehold where your parents are
very emotionally allowable andin tune and like, taught you
that it's okay to have youremotions and let them ride and
let them flow, congratulations,that's really great.
(28:24):
They gave you a leg up.
A lot of people didn't reallyget that, especially in the West
, where we are the masters ofthe universe and we default to
control and mastery.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
Yeah.
So that's kind of tough and Ithink for a younger generation.
I mean, I'll throw it out there.
I can't tell you the number ofpeople that I work with who are
younger than us and this isn't aget off my lawn moment, even
though it sort of sounds likeone, and you can interpret that
if you want.
That will automatically go tothe internet or social media for
instructions on how to operatetheir emotions optimally.
(28:53):
There must be an optimal way toprocess an emotion or control
an emotion or pick the rightoutcome or always be in the
right lane and the right mindset, and that's just ludicrous in
plain English.
On a podcast I can say thatit's ludicrous.
That's a pointless exercise, soI don't know, emotionally
allowable.
Like you know, it's abouttrying to control your emotions
(29:15):
less, even though that's reallyscary sometimes.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
It is yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
Yeah, and, and, and, and, and, and, you know being
okay with having them, likeyou're not a failure.
It doesn't, it's like a, it'slike the weather, you know, in a
way like Absolutely.
Emotions don't say who you are.
They're just saying what you'reexperiencing and what you're
feeling in a moment.
So you know, being afraiddoesn't mean you are weak, it
just means you're afraid.
So Right.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
I feel like so much of what I do is just helping
people like tolerate reality andgetting out of the business of
suffering.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
Yeah, because they're resisting or trying to bend
that and I'm a reality bender,don't get me wrong.
For many years I was, but, likeyou're right, so much of the
suffering is based on like nope,not not doing it, not going to
do it, so like OK, but what areyour choices then?
Speaker 2 (30:04):
Right, right, yeah, cause we make it so much worse
with the story we put on and thepredictions and the meaning,
and it's just I feel like themore I do this work, it's just
like helping people get out ofsuffering and just accept
whatever the reality is, and Ifeel like that's kind of my like
(30:27):
, what I try and do in my ownlife.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
Let's go Like we're about a half hour in, so we'll
wrap it up, but let's, let's tryone more topic and let's see
where this goes.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
I know that there are people only because I know that
there are many people listeningto us that are going to raise
this objection or at least throwit out there, you know, in the
comments section on YouTube.
And that is.
Emotions are really hard.
What about if you're empathicor an HSP and you have to carry
all the emotions of the world?
Is that different?
Speaker 2 (30:57):
bro, I don't know like.
Um, I love how you started thestatement with bro.
It's so funny, I say because Ithink my son says it like really
and so I say it jokingly to himall the time.
Um, I don't really understandwhen people say they absorb all
(31:17):
the emotions in a room.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
Yeah, you know, I hear you.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
I know people who like highly sensitive people I
get that and like extrasensorynervous systems.
I don't know.
What do you think?
Speaker 1 (31:34):
Oh, I don't know.
Again, I don't want toinvalidate anybody's experience.
I wouldn't claim status as anHSP or an empath in any way.
But that doesn't mean that youknow, my experience doesn't mean
it's your experience, but Itend to and this only comes from
the experience of working witha few people who would plant
that flag right and say like myyes, but is that an?
I'm an HSP or an I'm, I'mempathic, I'm an empath, so what
(31:57):
you're talking about doesn't,doesn't apply, because I carry
the emotions of the world withme.
Okay, well, if, whether, if youfeel so, maybe it's a matter of
degree is there a limit toemotional allowability?
I don't know that.
So maybe it's a question morethan something we're going to
throw out there as opinion orclinical fact, because neither
(32:18):
of us seem to have a good answerfor it, but you but how does
somebody who identifies as anempath or an HSP feel about
emotional liability when a lotof times, that population seems
to spend a lot of time trying tofigure out how to protect
themselves from emotions?
Is that wrong, I don't knowright, so why don't?
Speaker 2 (32:36):
I I don't know.
I mean, I know, I mean, and Ithink you know what gets me
curious or where my head justkind of naturally goes is and I
hate to bring it back toparenting I mean, I think I'm
working on the second book,which is the parenting stuff.
Sometimes parents hold a belieflike I can only be OK if you're
(33:00):
OK, if, like my child's okay,right.
And so I wonder if there's andthat can be problematic, you
know that kind of like belief.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
Yeah, I hear you.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
And so I wonder if an empath or an HSP has and I
don't know has like a similarbelief system, like, because
that would be like that would bereally really challenging and
hard if they can't be okay andregulated Like, how do you
(33:35):
regulate yourself if, like youknow, everyone around you isn't
regulated Like?
I think?
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (33:42):
That's a really good question.
That's just a whole other topic.
I didn't need to open this canof worms or what.
Maybe we'll go there one day,but it does sound interesting
from an emotional allowability.
We just spent a half hourtalking about how you have to
open up to emotions and let themflow and don't don't resist
them.
But for those of you who feellike, yeah, but you don't
understand, I feel it so deeplyor I feel everybody's emotions.
You're right, is it a functionof?
(34:04):
Well, if your emotions are in anegative side, and I'm seeing
that, then I feel a certain wayand I can't handle that.
Or maybe it is actually anexperience that you and I will
never understand, where youactually do feel, like you feel
the other person's emotion.
That could be, I guess, and theother explanation that I always
(34:25):
throw out there and this again,we're just opening stuff to
talk about more than anythingelse is.
Or were you in an environmentwhere you had to watch other
people's emotions Because thatwas a safety issue, and I get
that, and that leads you tobelieve like, no, no, I read
everybody's emotions.
Well, you had to to try andstay safe, right?
Speaker 2 (34:43):
Right, that's a different story.
I think that so Right, and somany people like, yeah, or they,
you know they become, you knowthe way that they protect
themselves is they become peoplepleasers.
I mean, I think it's just socomplicated.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
Yeah, who knows, I'm glad I like we spent six minutes
on that with getting absolutelynowhere.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
Nowhere.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
But it's you know, those people are listening and
they matter and we care aboutthem yeah.
Right.
So we do understand that maybethe idea of like being fully and
utterly emotional allowablemight feel really dangerous to
certain people for thatparticular reason.
Don't have any good answers,but we can talk about it.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
But I think okay, so there's also cause we have.
You know we have to be able toexperience emotions, name what
emotions we're feeling.
We also have the ability toregulate emotions.
You know, tolerate distress,but there's nothing that says
that like we have to take otherpeople's emotions on yeah, and I
(35:42):
think that would be the debatethen for the people who say no.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
No, you know, this is not a choice, this is just the
way.
I am okay, fair enough.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
That's where I'm getting yeah, I think that's why
I lose it a little bit right,because I think then then is it
a boundary, it then is likeabout, like about that, because
I mean I work a lot with peopleabout boundaries and I don't
know, like energetically, are wetalking boundaries or?
Speaker 1 (36:07):
I don't know.
It's a good question, all right.
So HSPs and empaths if you'reon YouTube, in the comments
section, let us know or, like,click on the little link in the
podcast description.
You can send me a text.
I won't know who you are and Ican't text you back, but if you
want to send an HSP, this isfascinating.
It really is Right so.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
I mean yeah, cause I'm.
I also think about like I'vebeen a therapist almost like 30
years at this point and I usedto take on way more client stuff
than I do now.
Now I you know I've got reallygood boundaries, so I like I
don't know.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
Yeah, ooh, that's a good point.
We're going to have to shelvethis.
We'll talk about it some othertime for sure, because you're
right In the helping professions, at first you're much more
susceptible to taking on whatyou're hearing from your clients
, and then, as you get somehowor other, that changes over time
or it doesn't, and people windup in our profession burnt out
early.
Speaker 2 (36:55):
Right, yeah, and yeah , and I think that's a boundary
and an experience and yeah, so Idon't know, I think it's really
fascinating.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
We should do a whole thing on that right.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
We have so many places to go with this.
Speaker 1 (37:09):
Very good.
Well, thank you, Joanna, Iappreciate it.
You know what, If you justlisten to it, when we're done
I'll come back and do a little45 second wrap up.
I'll give you all Joanna'slinks and the website and all
that stuff, her book andeverything.
But like it's always great whenyou come on.
Speaker 2 (37:23):
Oh, it's so fun.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
Yeah.
So that was really great.
We almost didn't even make it.
We scheduled, but never reallyscheduled.
Joanna's like uh, hello, yeah,let me hang on.
Let me turn on the camera itagain, and maybe we'll talk
about HSPs and empaths and allthat stuff.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
So I don't know anything about.
I'd have to do some research.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
Well, enjoy your trip , wherever it is you're going.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
So I appreciate that.
Speaker 1 (37:46):
I'll see you when you get back.
All right, guys, I'll come backin a second to wrap it up.
Okay, we are back.
As always, a great discussionwith Joanna, again proud to call
her a friend and a collaboratorand a colleague.
I trust Joanna.
When she says things, I listen,and when she says things, I
listen and I would suggest youlisten too, because she does
know what she's talking aboutand, again, she's always above
board.
That's what I love about thepeople I collaborate with most.
None of them are snake oilsalesmen or salespeople I guess
(38:10):
the better term would be thesedays.
And yeah, so Joanna's reallygreat and I love the way she
conceptualizes emotionalallowability, because in the end
, that is really what it is.
If we're going to try andresist that part of our
humanness, the emotional part,then bad things happen.
So, as difficult as it may be,working on being more allowable,
being open to emotions andworking through them in whatever
(38:32):
organic way each particularsituation or context requires,
is a really valuable thing.
It tends to make life better onthe whole.
So I think this was a reallygood conversation to have.
If you want to know more aboutJoanna, or the work that she
does, or she wrote a book calledJust Do Nothing, which is an
awesome book.
In fact, I produced the audiobook, so it's a really great
book, and I'm not just sayingthat because she's my friend.
She's working on another bookwhich I think is parenting
(38:54):
focused.
That'll be out in a while.
But yeah, she's great on socialmedia too.
So if you want to find Joanna,you can go to JoannaHardestcom
or just follow the links in thevideo description or in the
podcast description.
I will have those links as well, and if you're on my website,
I'll have it on the blog postthat goes with this.
And, yeah, check her out, giveher a follow on social, tell her
I said hi, she will appreciatethat, and that's it.
That is this episode of theAnxious Truth in the books.
(39:16):
I don't even know what episodenumber this is.
That's why I didn't say thenumber, because I'm not sure
when we're going to release it.
But we're done with ourconversation about emotional
allowability.
I hope it has been helpful toyou.
I hope you got something thatyou can take with you and use in
some way shape or form, ormaybe just something that made
you think.
And what I will do is ask youwhat I always ask, which is if
you're listening to this podcast, spotify or iTunes, apple
(39:38):
podcasts, and you can rate orreview the podcast, leave a
five-star rating if you like itand if you really really like it
, maybe take a minute or two andwrite a short review of why you
like the podcast, because thathelps even more people find it
and then more people get help,which is why I started doing
this anyway so many years ago.
And, of course, if you'rewatching on YouTube and you
haven't subscribed to thechannel, why not Just hit the
little button?
(39:58):
It's only one click for you.
It means a lot for me.
Hit the notification bell soyou know when I release new
videos and new podcast episodesand leave a comment.
Ask a question, if you can.
It is overwhelming.
The comment section can be kindof overwhelming, but I do my
best to go back through and readthrough them and respond to the
ones that I can in an effectiveway.
So I can't get to everything,but if you have a question, I
promise I will at least try tocheck it out and that's it.
(40:21):
And I will leave you with onelittle reminder about emotional
allowability, even though youremotions might seem like they're
going to break you or overwhelmyou or might never end or are
harmful or unbearable in someway, at least today.
Consider the possibility thatthat might not be a correct
conclusion to draw about yourability to have and handle
(40:41):
emotions.
If today the best you can do isto just turn a little bit in
the direction of emotionalallowability, after being highly
resistant to and trying toavoid or control your emotions
for many, many years, maybe thenyou're winning Just a slight
change in direction, and movingin that direction and at least
considering or opening yourselfup to the possibility of
becoming more emotionalallowability allowable is a good
(41:04):
step.
It might not be a huge step,but that step is the first step
always, and it counts, just likeevery other tiny step you take
away from the fear, away fromthe anxiety and toward a
recovered state in the life thatyou really want.
They all count.
Keep going, do the best you can.
I know you can do it.
Thanks for hanging out thisweek.
I will see you again in twoweeks for some conversation.
I don't know what it will be.
We're out, take care ofyourself.
Anxious people are often afraid of their emotions
and they try really hard to notfeel them or to control them or
to get away from them.
So this week, on the AnxiousTruth, my friend Joanna Hardis
is here and we're going to talkabout the idea or the concept of
emotional allowability.
So let's get to it.
Hello everybody, welcome backto the Anxious Truth.
(00:25):
This is the podcast and theYouTube channel where we talk
about all things anxiety,anxiety disorders and anxiety
recovery and, I guess, mentalhealth in general.
Anyway, I am Drew Linsalata,creator and host of the Anxious
Truth podcast and YouTubechannel.
I am a therapist practicing inthe area of anxiety and anxiety
disorders in the state of NewYork in the US of A.
I am a former sufferer of panicdisorder, agoraphobia, OCD,
(00:46):
depression for many years of mylife, on and off, but better now
for a very long time.
I'm an author on this topic, apsychoeducator, an advocate and
clearly a guy with a microphonethat hosts this podcast and
another one called Disordered,which you'll find at
disorderedfm.
So if you like the anxioustruth, you'll love Disordered.
(01:06):
This week we're going to talkabout the concept or the idea of
emotional allowability.
I'm going to be joined by myfriend, joanna Hardest.
Joanna is a very well-respectedand long-experienced therapist
practicing in Cleveland, ohio,cleveland Rocks.
Joanna specializes in thetreatment of anxiety and OCD as
well.
She is a colleague, she is myfriend.
I am proud to call her a friend.
I trust her.
She is not a huckster, she'snot just trying to sell stuff.
She knows of what she speaksand she speaks often about the
(01:29):
concept of emotionalallowability.
Now she kind of took it out ofsort of the relationship sphere
as an alternative to the idea ofemotional availability.
But learning to be emotionallyallowable, which is accepting
that you're going to haveemotions, even really difficult
ones that are hard to feel, isreally important.
(01:49):
In our community, right In apopulation full of people who
are struggling with chronic anddistorted anxiety, who often
learn to become really afraid oftheir emotions because they
instantly morph into anxiety orfear or even panic, the idea of
becoming more open to emotionalexperiences, especially intense
and difficult ones seemsdaunting.
So we're going to talk aboutthe idea of emotional
(02:10):
allowability and how the ideathat we can prevent or control
emotions is kind of silly anyway, because we just can't, at
least not in our view.
So we will get to Joanna in asecond.
Just a quick reminder that theAnxious Truth is more than just
this podcast episode or thisYouTube channel.
There's a ton of more othergoodies and resources, most of
which are free, and if there isa cost with any of them, it's a
(02:30):
pretty low cost.
There's books and workshops andthings of that nature and all
the other podcast episodes andmy social media stuff, and I'm
knocking stuff over on my deskat my website.
Go check it out, it's all attheanxioustruthcom.
Avail yourself of all thegoodies free and otherwise.
Just wanted to remind you to dothat.
And yeah, let's get Joanna on.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
We will talk about emotional allowability and then
I will come back in the end andwe'll wrap the whole things up.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Bruh, what's up, bruh ?
Bruh?
I call Joanna bruh, she callsme bruh.
It's probably not right, butthat's what we do anyway.
Emotional allowability let'sget right into it.
I want to dive right in becausethis has been like a little bit
of a pet peeve for both of usfor a long time.
In our little rant sessionsthat we conduct sometimes, yeah,
the idea and I understand likepeople who are really agitated,
(03:18):
suffering, afraid they're not ina good place, they just want
relief.
They often feel like they'retrying to control their emotions
.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
They should be able to control their emotions.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Are they controllable ?
Speaker 2 (03:31):
No, of course not.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
No, well, let's see, let's okay, let's, let me think
about that.
No, we can't control, like youknow, emotion, a lot of the
times emotion, you know we mightfeel something, we're going to
feel something.
That being said, though, we cancontrol how we respond and if
we're going to amplify theemotion or if we're going to try
(03:55):
and do something which mightmake the emotion, like, dial it
down.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
So I do believe that once we feel it, we can make it
worse or make it better.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
Yeah, which I think makes sense, and sometimes I
think that the target thatpeople accidentally start to
shoot at is or maybe it's abetter way to describe it is if
somebody finds that they'reexperiencing an emotion that
they don't really like.
They might even be afraid of it, because you know as well as I
do, in our population peoplewould start to fear their
emotions.
Sometimes they will declarefailure just because they had
(04:27):
that emotion, like they shouldhave had some sort of way to
engineer themselves or theirenvironment or their day so that
that emotion would never gettriggered right, right, right,
right.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
You see it a lot with parents oh, that's a good point
, you're right yes, parents thatlike I should always be on, or
I should be happy, or my childshould never see me upset or
anxious or sad or human, or or,you know, feeling a bad, like a
bad emotion.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Yeah, yeah, that's a really good point.
So something or other, that weget trapped into this cycle
where it's like, oh, if we do itright, those emotions we don't
like, whatever they happen to be, it doesn't matter won't ever
get triggered, we can actuallyprevent ourselves from making
that emotion.
Yeah right, I always say Ithink emotions are like thoughts
we don't get to pick.
(05:18):
We could get to pick what wethink about.
We never get to pick what wedon't think about, and I love
that.
Yeah, With emotions.
Like you don't get to pick tonot have an emotion, I don't
even think you get to pick tohave one.
To be honest with you.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
I don't, I really don't either.
Yeah, and I think it's hardbecause, like getting back to
parents, like same is true foryour kids.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
I mean, oh right, like you, should they run.
You mean the trap becomes likeoh, my kids should also always
be happy and always be positiveand always.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
Well, yeah Cause, think about a lot of parents
struggle when their kids areupset and think about it Like
how many times and I you knowI'm not saying like I like
seeing my kids upset, not at allbut like how many times do we
swoop in as parents Like, oh mygosh, my kid's upset.
Like I have to swoop in asparents like, oh my gosh, my
kid's upset.
Like I have to swoop in andmake it better or take away
their distress or or fix it.
(06:10):
Or like we have a hard timeseeing our kids upset too and we
think our kids should always behappy or it's our job to keep
make our kids happy yeah, orsometimes I think it comes out
we're getting deep.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
We are getting deep and like, as a, I get it.
I'm gonna call your kids,though like, did your mom try to
make you feel better?
Speaker 2 (06:32):
she just let you feel bad no, they'd be like she's a
bitch, she's horrible.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Don't be friends with my mom.
I think, as parents, I get it I.
I have two girls, like you do.
You don't want to just standthere and watch them struggle at
all no yeah, but I think andthen we don't want ourselves to
struggle, but I think part ofsometimes what happens in that
emotional control thing is youalso try to argue the not argue
but like convince the person outof the emotion.
(06:57):
Yeah Well, like oh, but you'reso lucky and you have so much to
be grateful for and there's somuch going on, and like that was
so much fun yesterday, remember.
So like you're trying toconvince the person that the
emotion they're having should goaway, or this, yeah, totally or
problem solve it yeah, weirdbecause it leaves us having this
weird like toxic relationshipwith our own emotions yeah, yeah
(07:19):
, versus, just like.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
Can we just learn to coexist with them?
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
And coexist with them , which helps us.
Then let other people coexistwith theirs too.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
We are, and we are going beyond.
Just like you getting better,but like we getting better.
I agree with that.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
You know what?
I was in a conversation not toolong ago where there was just
some conflict going on in agroup and which which happens
between people sometimes, andthere was a lot of argument over
whether what?
Why is she upset?
Why is he upset?
He doesn't have a right to beupset.
So I think you're right theunderstanding that, like hey
hang on a second here you don'tget to decide if another person
should or should not be feelinga particular emotion.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
Right.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Cause they just happen.
No matter what there's just,they're just going to happen.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Right and oftentimes I mean this is sort of my lens
and it's kind of annoying forpeople probably, but like when
we're distress intolerant forsome people, not always, but
like it makes it.
If we can't handle how we feelinside, it may make it harder to
tolerate when someone else isfeeling upset.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
Yeah, it's probably a direct link there, I bet.
I bet there's a correlationthere.
If you have a hard time withyour own emotions, you may be
really uncomfortable whensomeone else is feeling upset.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Yeah, it's messy.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
Yeah, and it speaks a little bit to also the whole
and we'll get to it.
We'll get to the concept ofemotional allowability, because
I think it's a great, great,great concept.
That's in your book actually,but sometimes it even comes down
to the whole.
But emotions but why do we wantto control or prevent or
preempt the emotions?
Because sometimes they'rereally hard.
They're really hard, they'relike really difficult.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Nobody likes to feel them.
Well, I mean, you know, we liketo feel the good emotions, but
we definitely don't like to feelthe bad ones, right?
But how many times do we justmake it so much worse?
Speaker 1 (09:14):
You know well, that's one of those principles that
you and I, we landed on those along time ago.
Actually, people way smarterthan us landed on them about
3000 years ago.
Yes, so I can't claim any, youknow.
Oh, let's just call it a theoryand write a book about it.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Um, oh gosh.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
I'm going to say, I'm going to get you started in a
little rant anyway.
Um yeah, and we do make it somuch worse.
Like this emotion is here rightnow, so like it would be way
better if I kind of let it playitself out the way it's supposed
to, and whatever that means.
Maybe it's crying, or maybeit's, you know, journaling, or
maybe it's having a reallydifficult talk with someone that
you care about, a friend or afamily member or something.
(09:50):
Instead of trying to make it goaway, or like I don't hear you,
or like I'm going to push itaway, let me choose happiness
instead.
Let me go do something.
Allowability.
I love this.
If you're not going to controlyour emotions, then how do you?
Allowability is great concept.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
I know, but it doesn't sound like good for a
shirt.
It's not going to like sell mea million books like let them
theory.
Maybe we can like no one'sgoing to be tattooing that shit
on their arms.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
I got some space in my left arm.
Maybe I'll throw it on there, Idon't know.
I'll help you.
You'll wear buds, you know it'sfine.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
I will do it.
Well, it came from my like.
It came from, of course,something that annoyed me
Speaking of resisting this ideaof like emotional availability.
Idea of like emotionalavailability, because every
because I hear so much um,either personally or
professionally, like I wantsomeone who's emotionally
(10:53):
available, either people wouldsay, like my parents weren't
emotionally available, mypartner's not emotionally
available, that makes no fuckingsense to me.
What that is like?
I don't know what that means,and I'm sure I've said it, like
because things that areavailable, they're like I think
of.
Like my library book isavailable for pickup, my my to
(11:17):
go order is available, it'sready.
Like emotions aren't available.
Like no, it doesn't make anysense they're there.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
No matter whether you think they're available or not,
they're there right, yourbreathing isn't of, we don't say
your respiratory available yeahyour, your immune system
available.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
It's just there, like it, so it makes.
No, it's one of those thingsthat we say but we don't think
about if it makes any sense.
So that's where it came from.
I felt like the more, the morething, the more appropriate
thing is, like we want to beallowable for emotions, which
means like we want to be able to, to experience the alphabet of
(12:01):
them, not just the, not just theones that are more pleasant to
experience.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
Yeah, that makes a good point.
I guess in that relationshipthat's because we hear I think I
hear it most often there Like Ineed somebody that's
emotionally available is reallykind of a relationship or dating
thing in a lot of times.
Yeah, but so what does somebodyif we did?
Okay, fine, let's say you wantto use the term allowable which
are available, which I agreeseems ridiculous because they're
there or not, whether or notyou want to be available for
them.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
Right.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
So what does that really mean in a relationship
sense?
I think it tends to mean like Iwant somebody that, when I'm
having emotions, will will letme have them or support me or
validate them.
I don't know what it means, butis that emotional?
Or or are they looking for likeno, no, no, I want somebody who
displays their emotions.
I want a partner that isemotional so I can see their
(12:47):
emotions.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
Right.
I think people want someone who.
I think you've got it.
I think, when people say it,they want someone who not.
I think both that can expressand feel the range of emotion
and be there when they andtolerate when they experience
(13:13):
the range of emotion.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
And that's emotional availability, which really is
just emotion.
Yeah, this is just allowability, because in a relationship,
you're both going to haveemotions, whether you want it,
whether you're available forthem or not, they're going to be
there.
So how much am I going to runfrom them, hide them, suppress
them?
Or ask you to suppress yours,right, yours make mine, and I
don't like mine, you know.
Or yours are harsh in my mellow, so your emotions are ruining
(13:37):
my day oh my gosh, yes yeah, toomuch right yeah, you're too
much.
So I think the point you madeearlier was pretty good, like if
you get good, if we get moreemotionally allowable, then we
get better at being allowable toother people's emotion or open
to other people's emotions tooright, yeah hmm, what about now
we're?
we're going to go off on alittle bit of tangent, but what
(13:57):
it made me think was emotionalintelligence starts this down
like one of those ridiculousterms too.
Then, like it's emotionalintelligence, like and I know
there's books written that aboutthis, and I know that there are
people right now they'regetting a little bit angry at me
because don't be coming aftermy emotional intelligence.
But is it intelligence or is itjust, again, allowability?
(14:17):
Like the person who'semotionally intelligent
experience, you know, seems tobe good at experiencing their
emotions without maybe gettingcarried away by them or, you
know, making rash decisions.
So does that make thememotionally intelligent or just
non-resistant?
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Right, like what is emotional intelligence.
Is that just allowability?
Speaker 1 (14:37):
I think it's pretty good.
I wasn't expecting to go here,but if I was pressed for an
answer, I think emotionalintelligence is not actually an
achievement or a skill.
It's actually doing less aboutyour emotions because you're
just allowing them to beorganically.
It's not a special skill thatpeople develop where they learn
to manipulate them and read intothem properly and somehow
(14:58):
process them correctly, likethere's a correct way.
I mean, there might be anincorrect way, but there's
definitely no correct way.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
I never read the book .
Speaker 1 (15:06):
Yeah, there's a ton of books on emotional
intelligence and it was a hottopic.
It's, it always is, but it wasa hot topic for a little while.
But it's allowed again.
It's allowability orflexibility yeah.
So for somebody who's listeningto us who I mean our audience is
our audience and they have areally hard time.
And you know, it's somethingthat I didn't expect to find
when I turned on a microphonefor the first time 11 years ago
(15:28):
however long, it was 15 yearsago, sorry, yeah, 15 years ago I
started talking to a dumbmicrophone about anxiety, but it
was 2010.
Yeah, so I did not expect tohear I mean, I, it was my
experience that I was an anxiousperson.
Every, every emotion did turninto fear.
Hear, I mean, it was myexperience that I was an anxious
person.
Every emotion did turn into fearinstantly.
(15:48):
It would instantly morph intoanxiety, panic and fear, but I
never thought of the whole like,oh, I'm afraid of my emotions,
but many people listening to usright now are they're very
afraid to get too emotionalbecause they feel like they're
going to be broken by it oroverwhelmed by it or somehow
swept away.
They won't be able to controlthemselves when they get too
emotional, I don't know.
(16:08):
So how did they become moreallowable then?
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Well, you know, part of it is that's a great question
.
Part of it is, you know, Ithink, learn.
You know learning emotionregulation skills.
I mean, I think part of it isunderstanding that, for the
(16:35):
experience of an emotion, wecan't control what shows up.
Right, I'm feeling, you knowyou're going to feel an emotion,
but then we do have the abilityto control if it's, if we're
going to dial it up or dial itback.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Yeah, and it probably starts with with the thing you
just said, which is we don't getto decide not to feel an
emotion.
They're going to show upwhenever they do, organically.
And if you are going to hang onlike hot death to the idea that
you should be able to preventthe emotions you like, then
you're going to start off on thebad foot, because the minute it
shows up, you're ready and likestomping your feet and like
gritting your teeth and like, oh, why is this?
(17:17):
This shouldn't be here, Ishouldn't know what's wrong with
me.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
Exactly.
And now your discomfort levelgets agitated up.
Yes, yeah, yeah, and I thinkyou know and people will say,
well, you know, well, it justlike it comes and it's a hundred
and it's like, okay, well, itmay feel like that, and
certainly some people are moresensitive and so they may.
You know.
So some people trajectory, theymay bounce higher quicker and
come down faster or slower, sothat trajectory is different.
(17:49):
But you know, we all have thatability to, based on our
behaviors, dial up or dial back.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
So it is a question of like okay, well, once you
notice what's going on, thenwhat are you doing?
So, if you are paying a ton ofattention that time and
attention thing that we alwaystalk about if you are focusing
on how much you hate, how you'refeeling, or like, oh my God,
(18:22):
this sucks.
Why does this always happen tome?
How long is this going to lastIs my fuck, my day is ruined.
Boom, it goes up.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
Yeah, there's also that that fear sometimes, at
least in our population, where,well, if it's a really difficult
emotion that I don't like, orit's really scary, it's really
just hard to deal with.
If I don't run away from it,it's just going to keep going up
, like there's no ceiling tothis emotion.
So like, ah, if I fully letmyself feel this emotion, it
(18:51):
might go into some sort of likered zone and break me, or or
never end, or Right?
Speaker 2 (18:56):
That's the story of the emotion.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
Yeah, yeah.
That's not the emotion itself,you're right, that's the belief
about or the story around theemotion Right right, right Right
.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
And so you know, I think, then it's like, okay, I'm
feeling it, yeah, but then wehave to like, zoom out too, like
then it's the coexisting withit, like, yes, I'm feeling it
and you know it's the choicepoint.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
Yeah, and I think there probably is.
This is a hard one because youknow you can't really measure it
.
But if you hooked a thousand ofus up to all kinds of
electrodes and stuff andmeasured the physiology while we
were experiencing verydifficult emotions, I bet we
would see a very narrow range.
Yes, there would be a wideexpression like heart rate and
galvanic skin response andrespiration rate and all that
(19:43):
stuff, but it's there's no sense.
It's not like oh my goodness,those people over on the end
their heart rates went to 300and they blew up.
There's no such thing.
There's actually a limit to theamount that we can
physiologically experience.
Then it becomes the perceptionof like oh no, this time it's
too intense.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Right, that's the story.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
Yeah, but it never is .
There's no such thing as justnever ending intensity.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
Exactly Right.
That's the story of it.
So if, if it's like you knowand this is where you know being
able to practice what you knowin non, practice with you know
in non, I mean during thosetimes, it is being able to say,
okay, you look, you can doanything for 15, 30 seconds and
(20:34):
they're always going to be theyes butters.
And like so there's always goingto be a yes butter, but you can
always do something for 15, 30seconds.
So you can like can you, whenyou're feeling that way, still
zoom out and say what is thenext right step for me?
Because if I stay in my headand I focus, it is going to dial
(21:00):
up.
So if I, what can you know todial it back down, I have to.
What is the next best step?
And that may be what.
What was I doing before thishappened?
And go do that.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
And it may be 15 seconds, fine.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
And then we get to that paradox of like the more
you try to dial it down or denyit, the more it's going to feel
like it gets more and moreintense.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Well, we're not trying to deny, we're just
trying to like, do the next,like just go do it, do it.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
Maybe right now I just have to be angry.
Okay, there's a, there's a lotI, I, to me there's a burden
that's lifted when somebody canreach the conclusion Like, I
guess, right now I'm just goingto be angry, or just right now
I'm just not going to be angry,or just right now.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
I'm just not going to like myself very much, okay.
Well, go be angry, and youstill need to live life.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
Right.
Even if living life was justdeciding to sit on the floor and
breathe or whatever you want todo, that's okay.
That's still living life.
But I like the idea of thestory of the emotion.
If I get caught up in the storyof the emotion, I'm never going
to be able to feel like I canhandle this emotion.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
No, and that's dialing it up.
Anytime you plug into the story, you're going to dial it up.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
Yeah, and I think it's so.
If you're going to learn to beemotional, there's a couple of I
think there's a couple ofbeliefs that get challenged in
the idea of emotionalallowability.
Number one I like how youmentioned the yes but there's
always a yes but.
And if you're listening and youwant to say yeah, but this is
where, like, we hit the limitsof what we can learn in a
podcast or on a YouTube video,right, that's when you spend
time working with an actualhelper to investigate where yeah
(22:33):
but comes from and how to getpast it.
But there's there's the beliefthat like no, no, no, my
emotions are more intense.
Or another belief is but I aminherently, structurally
incapable of handling them.
And I think the third one islike, but wouldn't I fix
something I don't like?
That's the mastery argument orthe mastery belief.
I should just be able to turnthe right knobs, right, it's a
(22:55):
problem.
I fix a problem, don't I?
So those three, those are threereally challenging things that
you have to challenge to becomemore emotionally allowable.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
Yes, and you know cause there's always the yes
butters, and you know I wouldsay sometimes they're arguing
with the content.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
Oh yes, Because the emotion over this thing, but
that's really important.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
Oh yeah, great, and the content isn't what we're
talking about.
I want it, like you know, andagain, your point about this is
we're working with a therapistis really important, because
we're not like the contentdoesn't matter.
This is the process that that Iwant you know that.
That is really importantbecause my guess is those people
, regardless of the content,they're, yes, butting.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
Yeah, you're probably right, and but the content
often does drive the yes but theresistance there.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
But this is my health we're talking about, but this
is my kids we're talking about.
That's a good point, yeah, butit doesn't matter.
Yeah, the content can beimportant without automatically
assuming that the emotion is theproblem.
The emotion is really just areflection of something that's
important to you, right?
So I'm like, okay, well, well,it can.
It's, it's allowed to beimportant, but it still doesn't
(24:10):
mean that you get to manipulateor stop or control the emotion.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
Right, exactly, and the process is still what
happens when you hit somethingthat that really is challenging,
you know, and it's like, oh you, it's like you find a way to
resist it.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
Yeah, and even when that resistance strategy or
being emotionally unallowable orunavailable or whatever
whatever you want to sayemotionally unallowable is
pointless because it's thereanyway, Right, yeah, so there's
no point in.
It's like the I can't accept myanxiety.
Well, I can't allow my emotions, but they're there anyway.
Wouldn't it seem like the bestmove is to try to open up to
(24:53):
that experience a little bitmore and say well, since they're
coming anyway, I'm just goingto have to learn how to get
better at having them,regardless of what the content
is or what the context is?
That they appear in the processof being emotional is still
something you have to learn howto do.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
Right, yeah, and you know I spent many years in this.
Yes, budding, I still findmyself there a lot and like you
gotta have, you gotta be bathingin self-compassion too.
Like it's like like approachingit with a lot of curiosity.
(25:27):
I would say Like, if you findyourself listening and you're
like, oh, this is kind of meLike really trying to, you know,
like giving yourself grace,because my guess is this pattern
developed, you know, for areason, and it's adaptive and
(25:49):
there's probably a lot of fear,obviously there's tons of fear,
and and so to really approach itwith grace and compassion and
curiosity and and and you know,think about, okay, this is
versus judgment, and like, oh mygosh, how so fucked up, which
(26:11):
is how I always think of myself.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
Actually it's you know, and I'm fortunate to call
you a friend.
You are pretty self-critical.
You go there pretty quick.
You're pretty self-deprecatingbut, so there's the.
I want to resist the experienceof the emotion itself, and then
I want to completely deny myability to be worthy or capable
or I'm just going to call it apersonal failure not only to
have the emotion but to fail tohandle it.
(26:35):
And you're right If you don't.
And you know what we all justarrived here.
That comes, who said thatthat's the CFT guy, compassion
focused RV guy, guy, like what,if we just agree that, yeah, I
think that might have been it.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
I have the book I'm reading the book.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
I haven't finished it yet, but, like I love the idea
that, well, you just arrivedhere.
Well, what's wrong with me?
Why do I get carried with myway, with my emotions?
Why can't I handle it?
Why can't I let go?
Why, well, you just arrivedhere?
There's about a billionvariables that put you right
here.
Let's start where you are andlike work forward, right.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
So yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
Yeah, biology and culture and like environment and
all of that stuff, like lessonsthat you learned, experiences,
like there's a ton of thingsthat got you to be emotionally
unallowable.
But okay, so now let's work onit.
How's that?
Speaker 2 (27:20):
Right and none of us, let's remember, none of us, I
don't think, certainly not.
Our generation grows uplearning how to experience
emotions, so it's not like weever learned this stuff.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
I think you're right.
You know the only person.
Yeah, I want to.
I don't want to likeovergeneralize, right?
We all do seem to talk aboutthis Like it seems like too many
people will say how come no oneever taught me this?
For it to be coincidence,however, that's not scientific.
You know, we talked about itFrickin Mr Rogers.
Mr Rogers would talk aboutemotions and stuff.
Remember Mr Rogers?
(28:02):
I mean, he was a legend, right?
So when we were kids, boringgrowing up well, mr Rogers was
definitely an acquired taste,but there were, there were
places where you might get thosehints.
And if you grew up in ahousehold where your parents are
very emotionally allowable andin tune and like, taught you
that it's okay to have youremotions and let them ride and
let them flow, congratulations,that's really great.
(28:24):
They gave you a leg up.
A lot of people didn't reallyget that, especially in the West
, where we are the masters ofthe universe and we default to
control and mastery.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
Yeah.
So that's kind of tough and Ithink for a younger generation.
I mean, I'll throw it out there.
I can't tell you the number ofpeople that I work with who are
younger than us and this isn't aget off my lawn moment, even
though it sort of sounds likeone, and you can interpret that
if you want.
That will automatically go tothe internet or social media for
instructions on how to operatetheir emotions optimally.
(28:53):
There must be an optimal way toprocess an emotion or control
an emotion or pick the rightoutcome or always be in the
right lane and the right mindset, and that's just ludicrous in
plain English.
On a podcast I can say thatit's ludicrous.
That's a pointless exercise, soI don't know, emotionally
allowable.
Like you know, it's abouttrying to control your emotions
(29:15):
less, even though that's reallyscary sometimes.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
It is yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
Yeah, and, and, and, and, and, and, you know being
okay with having them, likeyou're not a failure.
It doesn't, it's like a, it'slike the weather, you know, in a
way like Absolutely.
Emotions don't say who you are.
They're just saying what you'reexperiencing and what you're
feeling in a moment.
So you know, being afraiddoesn't mean you are weak, it
just means you're afraid.
So Right.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
I feel like so much of what I do is just helping
people like tolerate reality andgetting out of the business of
suffering.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
Yeah, because they're resisting or trying to bend
that and I'm a reality bender,don't get me wrong.
For many years I was, but, likeyou're right, so much of the
suffering is based on like nope,not not doing it, not going to
do it, so like OK, but what areyour choices then?
Speaker 2 (30:04):
Right, right, yeah, cause we make it so much worse
with the story we put on and thepredictions and the meaning,
and it's just I feel like themore I do this work, it's just
like helping people get out ofsuffering and just accept
whatever the reality is, and Ifeel like that's kind of my like
(30:27):
, what I try and do in my ownlife.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
Let's go Like we're about a half hour in, so we'll
wrap it up, but let's, let's tryone more topic and let's see
where this goes.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
I know that there are people only because I know that
there are many people listeningto us that are going to raise
this objection or at least throwit out there, you know, in the
comments section on YouTube.
And that is.
Emotions are really hard.
What about if you're empathicor an HSP and you have to carry
all the emotions of the world?
Is that different?
Speaker 2 (30:57):
bro, I don't know like.
Um, I love how you started thestatement with bro.
It's so funny, I say because Ithink my son says it like really
and so I say it jokingly to himall the time.
Um, I don't really understandwhen people say they absorb all
(31:17):
the emotions in a room.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
Yeah, you know, I hear you.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
I know people who like highly sensitive people I
get that and like extrasensorynervous systems.
I don't know.
What do you think?
Speaker 1 (31:34):
Oh, I don't know.
Again, I don't want toinvalidate anybody's experience.
I wouldn't claim status as anHSP or an empath in any way.
But that doesn't mean that youknow, my experience doesn't mean
it's your experience, but Itend to and this only comes from
the experience of working witha few people who would plant
that flag right and say like myyes, but is that an?
I'm an HSP or an I'm, I'mempathic, I'm an empath, so what
(31:57):
you're talking about doesn't,doesn't apply, because I carry
the emotions of the world withme.
Okay, well, if, whether, if youfeel so, maybe it's a matter of
degree is there a limit toemotional allowability?
I don't know that.
So maybe it's a question morethan something we're going to
throw out there as opinion orclinical fact, because neither
(32:18):
of us seem to have a good answerfor it, but you but how does
somebody who identifies as anempath or an HSP feel about
emotional liability when a lotof times, that population seems
to spend a lot of time trying tofigure out how to protect
themselves from emotions?
Is that wrong, I don't knowright, so why don't?
Speaker 2 (32:36):
I I don't know.
I mean, I know, I mean, and Ithink you know what gets me
curious or where my head justkind of naturally goes is and I
hate to bring it back toparenting I mean, I think I'm
working on the second book,which is the parenting stuff.
Sometimes parents hold a belieflike I can only be OK if you're
(33:00):
OK, if, like my child's okay,right.
And so I wonder if there's andthat can be problematic, you
know that kind of like belief.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
Yeah, I hear you.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
And so I wonder if an empath or an HSP has and I
don't know has like a similarbelief system, like, because
that would be like that would bereally really challenging and
hard if they can't be okay andregulated Like, how do you
(33:35):
regulate yourself if, like youknow, everyone around you isn't
regulated Like?
I think?
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (33:42):
That's a really good question.
That's just a whole other topic.
I didn't need to open this canof worms or what.
Maybe we'll go there one day,but it does sound interesting
from an emotional allowability.
We just spent a half hourtalking about how you have to
open up to emotions and let themflow and don't don't resist
them.
But for those of you who feellike, yeah, but you don't
understand, I feel it so deeplyor I feel everybody's emotions.
You're right, is it a functionof?
(34:04):
Well, if your emotions are in anegative side, and I'm seeing
that, then I feel a certain wayand I can't handle that.
Or maybe it is actually anexperience that you and I will
never understand, where youactually do feel, like you feel
the other person's emotion.
That could be, I guess, and theother explanation that I always
(34:25):
throw out there and this again,we're just opening stuff to
talk about more than anythingelse is.
Or were you in an environmentwhere you had to watch other
people's emotions Because thatwas a safety issue, and I get
that, and that leads you tobelieve like, no, no, I read
everybody's emotions.
Well, you had to to try andstay safe, right?
Speaker 2 (34:43):
Right, that's a different story.
I think that so Right, and somany people like, yeah, or they,
you know they become, you knowthe way that they protect
themselves is they become peoplepleasers.
I mean, I think it's just socomplicated.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
Yeah, who knows, I'm glad I like we spent six minutes
on that with getting absolutelynowhere.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
Nowhere.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
But it's you know, those people are listening and
they matter and we care aboutthem yeah.
Right.
So we do understand that maybethe idea of like being fully and
utterly emotional allowablemight feel really dangerous to
certain people for thatparticular reason.
Don't have any good answers,but we can talk about it.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
But I think okay, so there's also cause we have.
You know we have to be able toexperience emotions, name what
emotions we're feeling.
We also have the ability toregulate emotions.
You know, tolerate distress,but there's nothing that says
that like we have to take otherpeople's emotions on yeah, and I
(35:42):
think that would be the debatethen for the people who say no.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
No, you know, this is not a choice, this is just the
way.
I am okay, fair enough.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
That's where I'm getting yeah, I think that's why
I lose it a little bit right,because I think then then is it
a boundary, it then is likeabout, like about that, because
I mean I work a lot with peopleabout boundaries and I don't
know, like energetically, are wetalking boundaries or?
Speaker 1 (36:07):
I don't know.
It's a good question, all right.
So HSPs and empaths if you'reon YouTube, in the comments
section, let us know or, like,click on the little link in the
podcast description.
You can send me a text.
I won't know who you are and Ican't text you back, but if you
want to send an HSP, this isfascinating.
It really is Right so.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
I mean yeah, cause I'm.
I also think about like I'vebeen a therapist almost like 30
years at this point and I usedto take on way more client stuff
than I do now.
Now I you know I've got reallygood boundaries, so I like I
don't know.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
Yeah, ooh, that's a good point.
We're going to have to shelvethis.
We'll talk about it some othertime for sure, because you're
right In the helping professions, at first you're much more
susceptible to taking on whatyou're hearing from your clients
, and then, as you get somehowor other, that changes over time
or it doesn't, and people windup in our profession burnt out
early.
Speaker 2 (36:55):
Right, yeah, and yeah , and I think that's a boundary
and an experience and yeah, so Idon't know, I think it's really
fascinating.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
We should do a whole thing on that right.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
We have so many places to go with this.
Speaker 1 (37:09):
Very good.
Well, thank you, Joanna, Iappreciate it.
You know what, If you justlisten to it, when we're done
I'll come back and do a little45 second wrap up.
I'll give you all Joanna'slinks and the website and all
that stuff, her book andeverything.
But like it's always great whenyou come on.
Speaker 2 (37:23):
Oh, it's so fun.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
Yeah.
So that was really great.
We almost didn't even make it.
We scheduled, but never reallyscheduled.
Joanna's like uh, hello, yeah,let me hang on.
Let me turn on the camera itagain, and maybe we'll talk
about HSPs and empaths and allthat stuff.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
So I don't know anything about.
I'd have to do some research.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
Well, enjoy your trip , wherever it is you're going.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
So I appreciate that.
Speaker 1 (37:46):
I'll see you when you get back.
All right, guys, I'll come backin a second to wrap it up.
Okay, we are back.
As always, a great discussionwith Joanna, again proud to call
her a friend and a collaboratorand a colleague.
I trust Joanna.
When she says things, I listen,and when she says things, I
listen and I would suggest youlisten too, because she does
know what she's talking aboutand, again, she's always above
board.
That's what I love about thepeople I collaborate with most.
None of them are snake oilsalesmen or salespeople I guess
(38:10):
the better term would be thesedays.
And yeah, so Joanna's reallygreat and I love the way she
conceptualizes emotionalallowability, because in the end
, that is really what it is.
If we're going to try andresist that part of our
humanness, the emotional part,then bad things happen.
So, as difficult as it may be,working on being more allowable,
being open to emotions andworking through them in whatever
(38:32):
organic way each particularsituation or context requires,
is a really valuable thing.
It tends to make life better onthe whole.
So I think this was a reallygood conversation to have.
If you want to know more aboutJoanna, or the work that she
does, or she wrote a book calledJust Do Nothing, which is an
awesome book.
In fact, I produced the audiobook, so it's a really great
book, and I'm not just sayingthat because she's my friend.
She's working on another bookwhich I think is parenting
(38:54):
focused.
That'll be out in a while.
But yeah, she's great on socialmedia too.
So if you want to find Joanna,you can go to JoannaHardestcom
or just follow the links in thevideo description or in the
podcast description.
I will have those links as well, and if you're on my website,
I'll have it on the blog postthat goes with this.
And, yeah, check her out, giveher a follow on social, tell her
I said hi, she will appreciatethat, and that's it.
That is this episode of theAnxious Truth in the books.
(39:16):
I don't even know what episodenumber this is.
That's why I didn't say thenumber, because I'm not sure
when we're going to release it.
But we're done with ourconversation about emotional
allowability.
I hope it has been helpful toyou.
I hope you got something thatyou can take with you and use in
some way shape or form, ormaybe just something that made
you think.
And what I will do is ask youwhat I always ask, which is if
you're listening to this podcast, spotify or iTunes, apple
(39:38):
podcasts, and you can rate orreview the podcast, leave a
five-star rating if you like itand if you really really like it
, maybe take a minute or two andwrite a short review of why you
like the podcast, because thathelps even more people find it
and then more people get help,which is why I started doing
this anyway so many years ago.
And, of course, if you'rewatching on YouTube and you
haven't subscribed to thechannel, why not Just hit the
little button?
(39:58):
It's only one click for you.
It means a lot for me.
Hit the notification bell soyou know when I release new
videos and new podcast episodesand leave a comment.
Ask a question, if you can.
It is overwhelming.
The comment section can be kindof overwhelming, but I do my
best to go back through and readthrough them and respond to the
ones that I can in an effectiveway.
So I can't get to everything,but if you have a question, I
promise I will at least try tocheck it out and that's it.
(40:21):
And I will leave you with onelittle reminder about emotional
allowability, even though youremotions might seem like they're
going to break you or overwhelmyou or might never end or are
harmful or unbearable in someway, at least today.
Consider the possibility thatthat might not be a correct
conclusion to draw about yourability to have and handle
(40:41):
emotions.
If today the best you can do isto just turn a little bit in
the direction of emotionalallowability, after being highly
resistant to and trying toavoid or control your emotions
for many, many years, maybe thenyou're winning Just a slight
change in direction, and movingin that direction and at least
considering or opening yourselfup to the possibility of
becoming more emotionalallowability allowable is a good
(41:04):
step.
It might not be a huge step,but that step is the first step
always, and it counts, just likeevery other tiny step you take
away from the fear, away fromthe anxiety and toward a
recovered state in the life thatyou really want.
They all count.
Keep going, do the best you can.
I know you can do it.
Thanks for hanging out thisweek.
I will see you again in twoweeks for some conversation.
I don't know what it will be.
We're out, take care ofyourself.
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