November 20, 2024 • 52 mins
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Unlock the secret to mastering your mental well-being by embracing the art of doing nothing. Join us as we explore this transformative concept with the insightful Joanna Hardis, an OCD and anxiety specialist from Cleveland. We delve into concepts rooted in Taoism and Buddhism that challenge the relentless drive for constant activity in Western cultures. Learn how surrendering to anxiety and panic attacks, without the urge to fix or solve, can lead to a more harmonious relationship with your mental health.
Joanna and I shatter the misconceptions surrounding "doing nothing". Instead of avoidance or inactivity, this practice encourages stepping back to achieve clarity and presence, especially crucial for those grappling with anxiety disorders. Through personal anecdotes, we unravel how societal pressures and our own mental doing modes—like incessant planning and judging—can cloud our mental space. Discover how being present and accepting the moment can significantly boost your mental well-being.
Our conversation takes a deep dive into mindfulness, spotlighting everyday practices such as Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction (MBSR) and attention training. We examine the challenges of integrating mindfulness into daily life, emphasizing the need for patience and openness. By becoming more aware of mundane activities, we illustrate how mindfulness can be a powerful tool in stress reduction and overall well-being. Whether it's learning to navigate unfavorable circumstances or making mindful choices amidst societal pressures, this episode is a heartfelt guide on how to embrace stillness in a bustling world.
For more on Joanna Hardis:
https://joannahardis.com
For full show notes on this episode:
https://theanxioustruth.com/305
Support The Anxious Truth: If you find the podcast helpful and want to support my work, you can buy me a coffee. Other ways to support my work like buying a book or signing up for a low cost workshop can be found on my website. None of this is never required, but always appreciated!
Interested in doing therapy with me? For more information on working with me directly to overcome your anxiety, follow this link.
Disclaimer: The Anxious Truth is not therapy or a replacement for therapy. Listening to The Anxious Truth does not create a therapeutic relationship between you and the host or guests of the podcast. Information here is provided for psychoeducational purposes. As always, when you have questions about your own well-being, please consult your mental health and/or medical care providers. If you are having a mental health crisis, always reach out immediately for in-person help.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This week on a sleep-deprived.
Episode 305 of the AnxiousTruth, we're going to talk about
the value of learning how to donothing.
It's the act of doing, notdoing.
My friend, joanna Hardis ishere to help us with that, so
let's get into it right now.
Hello everybody, welcome backto the Anxious Truth.
(00:25):
This is episode 305 of thepodcast, or the YouTube channel,
depending on where you areconsuming this content.
We are recording in November of2024, in case you're listening
from the future.
Today's topic, aided by myfriend OCD specialist Joanna
Hardest from Cleveland, ohio, isthe value of learning how to do
nothing, or, as it's sometimesknown, doing, not doing, and why
(00:49):
we should probably invest timeand effort in learning how to do
that.
If you are new to this podcastor this YouTube channel this is
the first day here you kind ofaccidentally stumbled upon it,
maybe in a YouTube or a Googlesearch.
Welcome, I'm glad that you'rehere.
I am Drew Linsalata, creator andhost of the Anxious Truth.
I'm also a therapist, stillpracticing under supervision for
the time being in New York,specializing in the treatment of
(01:10):
anxiety and anxiety disorders.
I'm also a former sufferer ofall the flavors of anxiety
disorder and depression and OCDfor many years of my life on and
off, but much better now formany years.
Thank you very much.
I'm an author.
I've written three books onthis topic.
I'm a podcaster clearlypsychoeducator, mental health
advocate, social media guy allthe things.
But here, on the Anxious Truth,we're talking about anxiety,
(01:32):
anxiety disorders and strategiesfor learning about it,
understanding it and starting towork on overcoming these
problems.
So welcome if you are new.
Of course, if you're areturning listener or viewer,
welcome back.
I'm glad you're here.
I hope you guys find today'sepisode helpful.
What are we going to talk about?
We're going to talk about thevalue of learning how to do
(01:53):
nothing.
Some people call it doing, notdoing.
If you're familiar with Taoismor Buddhism, you may have heard
doing not doing.
I believe that comes out ofTaoism.
What are we talking about whenI say that?
If you have been around longenough, around this podcast or
the books that I write or thecontent that I create, you know
that we talk all the time aboutlearning how to not react
automatically to anxietysymptoms, to panic attacks, to
(02:14):
anxiety spikes, to scarythoughts if you happen to have
OCD.
We are learning how to not doanything about those things, how
to surrender to them, how towillfully tolerate them.
If you came here, through thework of Dr Claire Weeks, we're
learning how to float andutterly, utterly accept, as she
would say in her Australiangrandma accent, and people will
(02:35):
often say, ok, cool, I get whywe'd want to do that, but what
does that even look like?
If you've ever wanted to knowwhat does surrendering to
anxiety or OCD or a panic attacklook and feel like?
Learning how to do nothing,like undertaking, the formal
practice of learning whatnothing looks and feels like,
can be really helpful because ithelps you answer that
(02:56):
incredibly common question.
It may be completely out of therealm of your experience.
You have no frame of referencefor doing nothing because, like
any human being, especially inWestern culture, we are
constantly in problem solvingand fixing mode.
So doing nothing, the act ofdoing, not doing, is all about
becoming aware of that habit andworking on suspending it so
(03:18):
that we go from doing, which canbe overtly behavioral or just
mental mostly mental in ourcommunity into a state of not
doing or just being.
This is about learning to stopfighting against reality.
Because it's here.
You have anxiety because you'relistening to this podcast.
Clearly you are an anxiousperson.
It's already here.
You cannot deny that reality.
(03:38):
So how can you work with itbetter?
It's about learning how you area habitual doer, problem solver
, fixer, because we all are, andif we can gain an awareness of
that through the practice oflearning how to not do things,
we do give ourselves a betterchance of starting to learn new
ways to interpret and relate toand be with our anxiety, our
anxiety symptoms, even our panicattacks, our OCD scary thoughts
(04:02):
, things of that nature, and wejust get kind of better at doing
life.
So learning how to do nothing isa really valuable skill and
today my friend Joanna Hardishas joined me to have this
discussion.
Joanna is awesome.
She's one of those people thatI trust implicitly.
She's very well-trained.
She's a very experienced andethical therapist specializing
in OCD and anxiety disorders outof Cleveland.
(04:22):
We have worked together in thepast and I can't think of a
better person.
I can think of one other personI would have brought in in this
conversation, but it's hard tocoordinate the schedules.
But there's a person that Iwant to talk about doing nothing
with.
That would be Joanna.
So she is here to help us outwith the topic.
Before I bring Joanna on, justa quick reminder.
As always, the Anxious Truth ismore than just this video or
(04:42):
this podcast episode.
There's a ton of more thingsall on my website at
theanxioustruthcom.
I'm not going to pitch you,just head on over there if you
want to check it out.
Most of this stuff is free.
All of it is at at least verylow cost.
I have nothing expensive there.
The books are cheap, so you caneither find the rest of the
podcast episodes or the freesocial media stuff or all the
content I've created, or youmight avail yourself of some of
the low cost resources.
(05:03):
But check it all out attheanxioustruthcom.
I appreciate that, and if you'rewatching on YouTube, maybe like
the video or subscribe to thechannel.
That's a way to support thework that I do.
If you're listening on ApplePodcasts or Spotify, maybe leave
a four or five star rating.
If you dig the podcast or writea quick review, that's another
way to support the work that Ido and that costs you nothing,
(05:23):
but it does help me out andtherefore other people out, a
lot, and I appreciate all of youguys, no matter how you support
the podcast, even if it's justhanging out, watching a video or
listening now and then.
So let's get to it.
We're going to talk about thevalue of learning to do nothing.
Let's bring Joanna on, and thenat the end I will come back and
kind of put a bow on it, as Ialways Come on, come along.
(05:48):
Here we go, joanna what up?
It's been a while it's been aminute since we did one of these
huh.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
It has been way too long.
You're too busy for.
You're obviously too busy now.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
I, I.
It's very hard to get on mycalendar.
I'm that exclusive now.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
I'm joking you have.
It really is because it's beenover a year.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
Oh, it's probably since we did one of these like a
podcast episode together,probably at least two years.
I don't think we did one sinceI started my grad program.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
No, no, you know, because when the book came out,
oh, that's right, we did that.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
Yeah, what book did you write again?
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Oh, Just Do Nothing.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Just Do Nothing.
It's a good book, people.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Thank you, thank you, yeah yeah, the paradoxical
guide to getting out of your way.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
If you go.
I don't know what episode thisis, I'm so woefully unprepared.
But I will tell you right nowthat if you go to the anxious
truth slash, this is episodethree oh five.
So I'm going to the anxioustruthcom slash three oh five.
I have links to join.
It's a really good book.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
I agree.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
And it matches with today's topic, which is doing
nothing.
Before we hit the record button, joanna was like venting one of
her little peeves to me and shehas such an entertaining list
of pet peeves.
But when you write a bookcalled Just Do Nothing I mean we
talked about it on a previouspodcast episode I'll link that
also in the show notes so youcan listen to Joanna talk about
that.
But how do people misinterpretthat?
What do they think you meanwhen you say?
(07:14):
What do you mean do nothing?
Speaker 2 (07:15):
What does that mean?
Well, what they, what the oh.
They'll come up to me oh, Ilove this.
You're telling me that I don'thave to do anything.
I love it.
Tell my wife that now I don'thave to do anything and they
miss.
It's like I just shake my headbecause I'm not really telling
people.
They miss the whole second part, which is the paradoxical guide
(07:38):
to getting out of your way.
So they think what I'madvocating for is literally
doing nothing, like kicking backand, just like you know,
watching sports all day orHousewives or whatever, doing
nothing.
And that's not really.
I'm sure that's not what we'retalking about today, even though
you that's not what.
(08:00):
I'm talking about.
That's not how we get out ofour way.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
Yeah, we're not literally talking about like and
you know what.
It's funny because for peopledealing with anxiety disorders,
with highly avoidant copingstrategies, that could go off
the rails really fast.
So, like these two people toldme to do nothing, cool, I'm just
gonna stay home all day andjust read Right, yeah, we're not
talking about that.
So, I'm glad we got to clearthat up.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
This isn't early retirement which is also what I
get a lot of.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Episode 305, early retirement, which is what I'm
talking about.
Do nothing, yeah no, with yourfamily.
Do nothing, yeah no, that'swhat we're talking about.
So when we're talking aboutdoing nothing, I mean I have
come to the conclusion thatlearning how to do nothing or,
like you know I think it's theBuddhist or the Taoist will say
it's doing, not doing.
You know, like learning how tobe in not doing mode is one of
those skills Like at least inthe West, we should be teaching
(08:47):
everybody from the time we'reold enough to like toddle around
the house.
We should be learning how tonot do, to do, do not do.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
Yeah, otherwise, we're in constant doing mode all
the time, and especially asadults, especially in a society
that you know is always aboutimprovement and achievement and
goals and check boxes and allthat stuff we're always in
behavioral doing mode, but thenthere's the mental doing mode
too.
What does that look like foryou when you're in mental doing
mode?
We all do it, by the way.
(09:17):
Well, even we do it.
Both of us do it.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
Oh yeah, what does it look like for me when I'm in
mental doing mode?
Speaker 1 (09:22):
Yeah, you could be sitting like literally just
sitting on your sofa, but stillbe in mental doing mode.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Oh, yeah, I'm thinking.
I'm thinking, I'm planning, ohyeah, I'm thinking.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
I'm thinking, I'm planning, I'm replaying
something, I'm daydreaming, I'mon vacation somewhere else.
I'm just like.
You know, I'm in my head.
You know I'm in my head and youknow, I think, from all of
those things, all of the thingsI get, those, um, I also
discovered I can't.
In the last few months, itdawned on me like, oh, I'm in
constant judging mode, likemental doing is oh yeah, like
evaluating, evaluating, yeah,because I'm deciding what I want
and don't want.
What do I like and don't likeabout this moment right now?
(10:10):
Is this good?
Yes, like, how do I change itto get what I want?
Like, how do I resist what isbecause and don't want?
What do I like and don't likeabout this moment right now?
Is this good?
Yes, like, how do I change itto get what I want?
Like, how do I resist what isbecause I don't like what it is
and I want something different?
Like you know, we get in ourown minds yes, doing mode,
that's doing mode, that'sdifficult.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, even evenlike it's gray in Cleveland
right now and it's raining andand I was a vet, like you know,
(10:35):
hating on the weather- yeah,which is like you could not like
, though it's nothing wrong withnot liking the weather, but how
much time and effort do we likeautomatically put in the
resistance?
There you find yourself likeoverly hating the weather,
getting a little too carriedaway with hating on the weather.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
Yes, and then it's the oh my gosh.
It's the start of winter andit's the next five months, and
why am I still here and whyaren't I spending the winter
somewhere else?
And it's like this whole storyabout the winter that I get into
.
And clients get into.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
Yeah, that's a tough one.
So, and I think it's it's humannature, we all do it.
This isn't like oh, you'rebroken if you do that, cause we
all do it by default.
That's the way it goes.
Brains aren't meant to be quiet, they're meant to be active.
That's their job.
Yeah, well, I get it.
One suggestion would be to justcome to Long Island for the
winter, cause you know it's verytropical and sunny here in the
winter.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
I'm lying it's not.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
No, I know it's not.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
We're both screwed.
But isn't it funny how, like,you look out the window or you
get up and you check the weatherand momentarily you do have an
opinion about the weather, whichis okay, but then that goes
into like a 90 seconds or twominutes of unconscious like, oh,
you know, you know be so muchbetter to be in Florida or
someplace warm.
I hate it.
This sucks.
(11:55):
Like now I have to get mywinter clothes out and now
you're living in Februaryalready where you have seasonal
affective disorder and you wantto, like you know you're like no
motivated, sitting on the sofaovereating.
Wait a minute, what justhappened?
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Exactly.
And then I'm on a tangent in myown head about, you know,
seasonal affective disorder.
Do I know how to like?
Is that real?
How much of that is real?
How do I treat it?
Like I can just like go on andon in my own head and I have a
like fairly consistentmeditation practice and then I'm
hating.
Then I'm like why, you know, Iknow how to like.
(12:29):
I have a pretty good mindfulawareness practice.
Like how am I getting lost inthis shit so regularly being
critical of myself, like it's soyeah this is so relatable Same
thing, we are very similar.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Like I practice every day.
I'm actually doing the wholeMBSR teacher training thing, so
I'm spending I'm literallyspending a lot of time every day
doing the exercises.
This morning I'm in the middleof like mindful yoga.
I'm supposed to beconcentrating on how my body
feel, the movement in space andzoning, and I'm no joke, this is
legit.
I found myself wondering if youhad new glasses, cause I
(13:04):
haven't seen you in a long time.
We haven't recorded.
I'm like, oh, I wonder if shehas new glasses.
What a random, ridiculousthought.
Like I'm really not worriedabout your glasses, but I know
you wear glasses.
And my mind went to like I'mgoing to record later with
Joanna, like I wonder if she hasnew glasses.
I don't know why I thought that, but I did and it was like I
don't know how long my brain wasthere.
So I'm doing yoga but my mindis literally thinking about your
(13:27):
eyewear.
I mean, come on, brain.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
Really yeah it.
I mean, come on brain, reallyyeah, it's so funny.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
So I think it's okay to acknowledge that our brains
are built to be in constantdoing mode, but that can get us
into trouble, because now we'reproblem solving where we don't
need to be.
And from my take, the reasonwhy I think we should all learn
how to just be, which is theopposite of doing.
Just being is like life is fullof realities that we don't
(13:55):
really want or like, but wecan't do anything about them.
And then, when we're in doingmode, behaviorally and mentally,
we're resisting what is.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Right, but I think for a lot of clients and I think
this is where it may bedifferent for you and I because
we're at a different point inour recovery I hear from a lot
of clients at a different pointin our recovery.
I hear from a lot of clients.
They are like I hear all thetime I'm scared to be alone with
my thoughts.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Yeah, oh yeah, a hundred percent Like.
So when we introducemindfulness practice into, say,
therapy, I do have clients thatare like I mean they want to,
but they're also reallysurprised at how difficult it is
to hear that thinking, actuallyhear it.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Yeah.
So I think it's the question ofit.
May be it may sound reallygreat in theory and people may
be like, oh yeah, I totally amdown with what they're saying,
but what is the obstacle thatgets in someone's way?
Whether it's, like you know,people think it's just an
absolutely unproductive use oftheir time these relentless
optimizers or people who arejust terrified of being alone
(14:57):
with their thoughts.
Or, you know, it's someone whosays, like I can't possibly sit
still, or you know.
So I think that that is, youknow, something that we you know
that figuring out what it isfor whatever individual person.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
That is.
Those are the common obstacleI'm just afraid to be.
Especially, we're treatingpeople with anxiety disorders.
That's a big deal.
I'm going to hear my intrusivethoughts.
I'm going to hear the scarythoughts.
I'm going to hear thecatastrophic thoughts.
Yeah, true, Even fornon-anxious people that don't
have anxiety disorders, it'sreally difficult for them to sit
and hear their thoughts.
And I think the other thingthat they wind up doing, whether
(15:35):
they're anxious or not, I knowfor most of my clients that
start to try this stuff, it iswell, it's not working.
It's the expectation of whatit's supposed to be, but you
don't understand.
Like 10 minutes into it, mymind was wandering and I was
just worried about what I wasgoing to make for dinner.
I'm like, yeah, I know that's,that's the practice, it's okay.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
Yes, yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
Yeah, yes.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
Yes, this doesn't.
This doesn't work for me.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Right, it doesn't work.
This isn't going to work for me.
Yes, yeah.
What do you think themisconception is about?
Like when you'd say like, hey,we really need to learn how to
go into not doing mode, what?
What is the biggestmisconception about what that's
supposed to do that you find?
Speaker 2 (16:13):
I think that people either believe that they're
supposed to, that they still arein an outcome mode, that
(16:33):
they're supposed to come out ofit because they see all this
bullshit on social media, thatthey're supposed to be calm
Afterward they're going to be,like you know, zenned out or
calm or relaxed, and whenthey're not, they think that it
was a waste of time.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Because they're not calm.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
Right, because they're looking for a particular
outcome?
Speaker 2 (16:56):
right, Exactly, yeah, Versus that, you know,
mindfulness is the work Like itis.
It is, and you know, that's whyI think of it as a as a fitness
skill, Like it's a mentalfitness skill, and it's work,
mental fitness skill and it'swork to constantly and that's
why I like this.
It's when people call itattention training, because you
(17:17):
have to constantly train yourbrain to come back.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
Yeah, yeah, you find these principles in a lot of
different if we're just talkingabout like therapy and treatment
, like they're in a lot oftherapies.
For sure, you know,metacognitive therapy is a big
component of that is attentiontraining.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
It doesn't look like traditional meditation and
mindfulness, but it's the samething.
I think it is anyway.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
And I think it's work .
But I think, if someone isgoing into it and they, and,
they, and, and, and they'reexpecting something, but again
that's the doing mode that theyhave an expectation of how
they're supposed to come out ofit.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
Yeah, I agree.
I think they're either lookingfor like a state this is
supposed to make me calm or thisis how I quiet my mind.
The number one question.
People ask me oh, you meditateall the time.
Yeah, I have a daily practice,I have for many years.
People ask me oh, you meditateall the time.
Yeah, I have a daily practice,I have for many years.
How do you quiet your mind?
Well, I don't like.
Often, I don't the.
The practice of not learninghow to be nonjudgmentally with
(18:20):
your noisy mind is the practice.
That's the.
If there's a goal, that's whatit is.
Yes, yeah, Can I just be awareof the fact that my mind is
noisy and that's okay.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Right, right, because those are kind of I don't know
if they're the same people, butalso people that when they're,
when they notice that, they'rereally anxious and then they'll
say well, in that moment I triedmeditating and it's like no, no
, no, that was me.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
I was a compulsive meditator when I was at my worst
.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
I was trying to meditate it away and that got so
frustrating.
So, yeah, that's not what weuse this for at all.
Yes, if you're listening tothis odds, are you dealing with
a chronic or disordered anxietyproblem?
No, do nothing is not atechnique that makes your
anxiety go away at all.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
The other thing that I found really interesting.
And look we're.
But we talk about this all thetime, you and I, when we get on
our phone calls and just rant.
But the messages that surroundthings, like being present,
being present, that is a keypart of it, that's correct, but
that gets twisted into anaesthetic, almost Like being
mindful, and the practice ofdoing, not doing, does not have
(19:32):
an aesthetic, it does not have alook, it does not have a
lifestyle.
I mean, actually I don't know ifthat's true, because what I'm
learning in MBSR training is itis a little bit of a lifestyle,
it's borderline cultish.
We'll talk about that someother day but at the same time,
like there's no aesthetic,there's no goal, there's no
outcome, it doesn't have to lookor feel a certain way.
We're trying to learn to justbe aware that we're always
(19:53):
thinking, doing and feeling lotsof different things and that's
okay.
Like it's the awareness machine, we start to learn.
If you learn to do not do, youstart to be able to watch the
machine work without gettingswept away by it.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
Right, right.
And then you were.
I think you think you know thisis the hard it's kind of, and
because I feel like this is thefirst step is like being able to
observe.
Being able to observe, you know, kind of the circus that goes
on internally and then beingable to live your life while all
(20:33):
of this stuff is happening.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Yeah, that's exactly true.
We always talk about thingslike can you bring the feeling
with you?
Yes, Because it's here anyway.
Trying to go away isn't reallyworking, so can you bring it
with you?
But you've got to be able to dothat by gaining an awareness of
it first.
It's like well, I'm having thesethoughts, I'm having these
feelings, or maybe you know,this sort of work is used for
people who deal with injuries orchronic pain, even terminal
(20:56):
illness, like yeah, my back iskilling me, I keep resisting it,
but how can I work with it,instead of trying to fix a thing
I cannot fix instantly.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
So that's really important.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
But I think it's building the awareness that like
, oh, oh, look, I'm trying tofix it, I'm fighting it and
that's making things worse forme.
I have no shot if I try tofight reality.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Right, right Right.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
Interesting.
One of the things that I foundthat and I brought this up in
one of the classes and I'mtaking these classes, but you
know well what did what you knowcame up for you, what surprised
you.
And one of the things that Isaid was how come so many cause?
You're using guided as part ofthe mindfulness training
curriculum.
Sometimes you're using guidedrecordings that the instructor
has given you at first.
You know that's the first wayyou get into it.
(21:39):
I'm like how come two of themended with gratitude?
That's.
That didn't seem right to me.
Like, if I'm going to be reallycause, that's that thing I'm
supposed to come out of itfeeling calm.
I should.
I should be able to have asense of gratitude and thanks.
I'm like, but do we?
How come, at the end of therecording, you're instructing us
to be grateful?
(22:00):
is that trying to make a feelingso, even in people who trained
for three years to get thatcertification to teach this
skill might default back to andit was interesting.
It was like, oh, didn't eventhink about that so interesting.
But then I'll hear otherinstructors that will say things
like well, as you end thepractice, just take a moment to
acknowledge that you just didthis.
(22:20):
Cool, I like that.
Yes.
I like that Neutral right Like Imight feel grateful, or I might
feel happy, I might feel proudof myself, or I might feel
nothing, or I might feel like Ijust wasted 45 minutes of my
life.
Either way, it's okay, right.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Right, I like that.
That's funny.
I did that training in 2005.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
It's no joke.
It's now three years.
It's longer to get the MBSRcomplete certification as a
teacher than it is for me to getmy, or you to get your master's
degree right.
Oh my gosh, it's really a longprogram now.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
I'm not going three years, by the way so, oh, I did
a week at omega.
I gotta sign up for that,clearly oh, I went to omega for
a week with john cabot zen andsaki santorelli and did a week
training yeah, that wasn'tcertified.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
I'm not certified well, I don't know if they,
maybe they didn't that back then.
We're off on a tangent a littlebit, but it really surprised me
.
Yeah.
So I'm like wow, three years oftraining for that.
There's a certification,there's a qualification to be a
teacher after a year, but it'sstill a year, it's not a yeah,
that's intense.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Yeah, it's Wow.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
Okay, back.
People who teach this canaccidentally fall into trying to
create an outcome.
So it's normal for us to wantto do that.
It's just our human nature,it's okay.
Yeah, yeah.
So what do we do?
You know what are we doing?
We find ourselves looking forthat outcome and then judging
what it's supposed to be, andthen it's not that, and then we
don't want to do it.
What do you do when you getfrustrated with it?
Speaker 2 (23:49):
When I get frustrated , when I get frustrated, that
I'm, when I get frustrated, whenI get frustrated, that I'm,
when I get frustrated, that I'mlooking for an outcome.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
Yeah, cause I think no matter how long we practice,
we get stuck in there, right?
I mean, people wear robes andmove to monasteries and try to
dedicate their lives for thisand if they're honest, they'll
tell you at 80 years old, Istill don't have it right, like
I'm still failing.
Yeah, so, like, what do you dowhen you find that, like Ooh, I
accidentally did get caught upin an outcome or I spent my
entire 45 minutes off and Godknows where in my head, right
(24:20):
the key there?
Speaker 2 (24:21):
I mean I am really trying and I and I mean I get so
many opportunities cause I failso often because I am so
self-critical of myself.
I am really, really trying tolike be kinder to myself, that
(24:43):
like, okay, you know, Iacknowledge that, like I am
human eight times out of 10.
I, you know it may not work,but two times out of 10 I am
getting better at saying youknow what I'm human.
(25:04):
I like I can't punish myself,like I'm catching it, I'm
noticing it and I'm human.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
Cool, okay, I mean two.
Two times out of 10 is betterthan zero times out of 10.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Yes, yeah, and I'm really trying to say like there
is nothing wrong with me, likeI'm human, and this is something
I'm working on.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
Yeah, what you just said I think is so important.
You know, learning to donothing, or learning the art of
doing not doing, which we'll getto the particulars, I think,
and how, what that sort of lookslike for people.
But you are, you're not in themidst of an anxiety disorder and
even you have to remindyourself I'm human.
It's okay to not do this right,cause there even is no right.
So for somebody who's trying tofeel better and there's no it's
(25:49):
okay to want to feel better.
We're not saying that youshouldn't want that, but it's so
easy to instantly take apractice like this and treat it
as a technique or really wantthe outcome so much that you get
critical of yourself and thenyou say you're even more broken
and you can't do it and you'refailing.
That's such a trap.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
Yeah, I don't notice it as much when I'm I'm.
I'm pretty good when I do aseated meditation of being kind
to myself when I notice that.
I'm like when I notice and Ilabel like mind wandering to
bring it talked about before Iam so hard on myself about, like
you know, making a mistake orlike anything that I do wrong.
(26:28):
So I am really trying to.
Joanna, like you're human,you're allowed to be anxious,
(26:55):
you're allowed to avoid, you'reallowed to bail and make
mistakes.
You're human, it's okay.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
And isn't that part of the whole psychological
flexibility thing, though?
Like I can be there.
I can be there with that too,so I can be anxious, I can be
upset.
I could be feeling like I'mfailing.
I could not feel so good aboutmyself today.
That's allowed too.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Yeah, and I've had some really like terrible
behavior on that court and withpeople saying like, aren't you a
therapist?
Speaker 1 (27:29):
And like that makes it even worse.
I want to start watching theCleveland news, cause you might
be on there soon.
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
It's just like me leaving, like walking out and
stuff, but but like really, andI am so hard on myself Like I
should be, whatever we don'tthis is not my therapy session
but but really leaning into youknow, trying to be kinder as I
make you know, because I'mhitting up against a lot of
distress and like really tryingto like leave the internal stuff
(27:54):
there and not do anything withit, which is some of what we
were talking about.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
Yeah, there's the not doing, learning to not do right
, the.
The skill of not doing is not.
Sometimes it's physically notdoing.
You're right, I'm just going tosit.
Yeah, that's one of my favoritethings is no.
No, I get 15 minutes now to siton my silly little cushion and
not do.
I'm allowed to not do any.
This is an exercise andliterally not do.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
There's no goal, just I'm just saying that, yes, I
find that is easier for me thanthen the next step, which is
taking it out into the world.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
I agree.
But you build that in that sortof formal practice and that's
why we'll get into this a littlebit more now.
But I think in that situationso you're struggling at
pickleball ball because you wantto have a certain outcome and
you can't get it and you getfrustrated.
That's where the skill of notknowing to not do is the mental
skill.
Oh wait, I am mentally tryingto problem solve this instead of
(28:48):
just like this is what I gottoday, maybe tomorrow I'll be
better or worse, I don't know,that's all out.
Yeah, learning that, that,being aware of this, like oh,
I'm mentally problem solvingpickleball.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
Right yeah, but I think for a lot of people the
physically not doing it's hard,yeah, and it's hard for parents
to not to just have unstructuredtime with their kids.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
That's true too.
Yeah, you find it in school, inwork, in parenting, in
relationships.
Yes, like not doing time is sovalid, and you know what?
There's been so much writtenabout this lately too the idea
that we have forgotten how to bebored, we've forgotten how to
be idle because we don't have tobe anymore, and then the
ability to just be in asituation for whatever it is,
(29:34):
without judging it.
We have lost that.
We're collectively losing that.
Yes, and I think you and I area similar age Like we get as
kids.
We did have to learn how to beidle and bored.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
Yeah, whereas now kids don't have to ever be, my
kids never had to be bored, yourkids probably never had to be
bored.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
We had quiet time.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
See that you're smart .
Yeah, you were teaching themhow to be bored or how to be
idle.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
They, they hated it.
The third one never had quiettime, Um, but the older two had
quiet time where they couldn'thave TV, they couldn't have
electronics and they had to justdo like figure out what the
hell they wanted to do.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
If your kids are listening, if Joanna's kids are
listening to this podcast.
I'm sorry.
Your mom was so mean.
Yeah, seriously there's valuein that, though you know.
But as a even if, as adults, ifyou didn't learn it and you
never you don't know what it isto be idle and quiet, and still
you can learn it now.
It doesn't matter how old youare, you can still learn it,
Never too late.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
Other than sitting on your cushion.
What do you do for it?
Speaker 1 (30:41):
Well, what I've gotten better at over the last
year or so in my practice, Iguess, and now I'm only in the
beginning of the MBSR trainingRtraining but like it is an
eyeopening thing after only fouror five weeks.
So I'm I'm very beginner atthat, but being able to, I'm
starting to bring it into otherareas, like I am a food as fuel
guy.
I am not a foodie.
I will cook sometimes but Idon't care how it comes out.
(31:03):
I'm not fair enough and I knowI'm weird that way I get it, but
that's the way I am.
Bringing it into eating hasturned into an interesting
experience too, because now Isee how mindless I am on that
and it's not helping me.
So, for instance, I learnedthis caused a lot of chuckling
in my house.
The breakfast I make isabsolutely awful.
(31:27):
I'll eat it anyway and not care.
I'll just wolf it down and like, okay, I'm done eating, but I'm
also reading a book or I'mlistening to a podcast or I'm
checking my email at the sametime.
That is not helping me at all.
So learning that and bringing itinto eating now and then I'm
not a mindful eater by habit andI'm not I accept that about
myself really taught me thatlike I'm using a thing that's
(31:47):
supposed to be good for me,fueling my body, and it could be
a little five or 10 minutebreak for my mind, and a
recharge was making things worsein my day, adding to the stress
, adding to the load, like whatthe hell's going on and I was
eating crap.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
So like all.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
I have to do is cook it like two more minutes and
maybe put a little seasoning.
Oh the horror, it's an extra 10seconds and it's even enjoyable
.
Maybe put a little seasoning ohthe horror, it's an extra 10
seconds and it's even enjoyable.
Wow, what an eye opener.
How did I miss that?
I was, like today, days oldwhen I discovered that I'm
eating a terrible breakfast andbeing okay with that.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
Makes no sense, right ?
Yes, it's not like making ahuge life change.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
No, these are little tiny things here and there.
The other night it was a reallylong day came home and all I
wanted to do was chill and it'seven funny, because learning
this skill and practicing it iswork I had to motivate myself to
sit on a cushion.
How ridiculous does that sound?
It's eight o'clock at night andI want to do a night practice.
I know it's good for me.
(32:46):
I really want to do it becauseI like the practice, but also
I'm tired and I just want tozone out and numb out.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
I could not.
I had to motivate myself to sitdown.
Come on man?
Speaker 1 (33:00):
Yeah, but I also broke a box of light bulbs
accidentally in my garage and Iwas ready a long day and I just
wanted to get to the point whereI could numb out.
And in that moment the skill ofdoing nothing came in handy,
because I didn't rant and raveand stomp around the garage for
35 or 60 minutes and then numbmyself out scrolling YouTube or
Instagram for three hours.
I was recognizing what I wasdoing.
(33:23):
This happened I dropped a lightbulb.
What can I do?
I can clean it up.
Ranting and raving and mentallyproblem solving and judging the
experience would have made itmuch worse for me in the past.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
Right.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
Yeah, so that's where it's showing up for me
behaviorally, but it's a reallynot consistent.
It's hard.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
It is hard.
It is hard, but I think peoplecan make those little micro
shifts where they are just doingone thing, even like even if
someone just walks the dog, butthey don't, you know, they don't
listen to something right, justwalk the dog they just walk the
(34:02):
dog yep, yep, if you're gonnamake a cup of tea, just make the
tea, that's it.
Right, don't, don't multitask.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
Which, again, like you, have to be really learned
to be flexible when you do this,because your brain will try to
multitask and that's okay if youcatch it.
Come back to making the tea.
But the intention there wouldbe whether you intend to sit on
a meditation cushion for 15 or40 minutes or an hour however
long you can do or you intend tojust make a cup of tea, which
takes you three minutes.
(34:33):
That's the intention.
I'm going to just make this tea, then your brain will wander
off and you come back to the tea, the tea making or the dog
walking.
That's practice.
Speaker 2 (34:43):
Right.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
What about identity?
I always find identity issuescome up too.
You said that earlier like,yeah, but that feels like, but
I'm not accomplishing.
I'm the doer, I take care ofeverybody, I'm the problem
solver, I'm the, I'm themultitasker, I multitask.
I'm so good at multitasking,you know.
So sometimes it can you'reconfronting issues of like, but
I I'm I'm always supposed to bedoing that's correct to do.
(35:11):
Why are you telling me it'swrong?
But then we would?
Speaker 2 (35:13):
ask why are you listening to this podcast?
Right, and you know how well isit?
At what cost are youmultitasking?
Yeah, I always ask people likeat what cost?
And if you're a parent, youknow what are you mirroring for
your kids.
Because most parents, mostparents, want their kids to be
able to play independently, tobe able to focus, to be able to
(35:37):
do all these things, and then,if we're not able to model it,
it's very hard.
We wonder why our kids struggleso much to focus and to just do
one task other than, like youknow, scroll YouTube or whatever
they're doing.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
Yeah, I mean, and that's a very real thing, we all
know that problem in real life,whether it's with young people
or adults, it's almost universalLike no, it's the default.
What do you mean?
I want it.
Can I just have my iPad?
Well, what if?
What if you do sit silently forjust five minutes, could you do
it?
Speaker 2 (36:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
Yeah, but again we go back to the beginning.
The first thing is like, no, no, what is?
Why would I sit silently Topractice it?
To practice it not to quietyour mind, not to calm down, not
to have some sort of insight.
Maybe you will, who knows.
But like it's just the practiceof at least considering the
possibility that not doing, justbeing, is valuable, and I think
(36:30):
we've totally forgotten that,generally speaking, in our
society.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
Yeah, and being curious, I mean I think like
curious about what can come up,like I think you can get, I mean
great idea, you can get an idea, who you know?
Great things can come when wejust let ourselves be.
Speaker 1 (36:51):
Yeah, what I find people sometimes discover is
that when they cultivate thisand, believe me, there's no
experts in my life I do not knowanybody that would call
themselves an expert at thisEven if things don't come up in
the silent time or the quiettime, you get more room moment
to moment as you're living yourday for stuff to pop up that
(37:12):
could be productive.
Or suddenly you find thatyou're being more.
You're not trying to be moreproductive, but you are.
You're not trying to like beless anxious, but somehow you
are, because you're able tonotice like, oh, I'm having a
sensation in my body.
What if I don't try to problemsolve it?
What happens?
Things happen that you don'texpect.
Then it's good, yeah, right,yeah, I mean, that's why people
(37:36):
with things like chronic pain,they learn these type of skills
Like what if I don't problemsolve my back pain right now?
What happens to it?
And they will report lowersubjective pain experiences and
I don't know.
There are times when it fadesaway Like good.
Things happen when we practicethis.
Speaker 2 (37:53):
Yeah, you're putting that space.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
Yes, that's exactly right.
It's the building of theawareness that I'm problem
solving my back pain or my kneepain or my anxiety or my racing
heart.
I'm problem solving it.
Oh, I can see what I'm doingnow.
Yeah, now I might make adifferent choice.
What if I just let it be there,right, yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:10):
It's that thing that we've talked about.
I think we've talked about iton other podcasts that you're.
It's the difference betweenmaking.
Then you're able to make,instead of an emotion or a
fear-based decision, you're ableto do a values-based decision.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
Yeah, a hundred percent.
Lately I've heard it describedas a difference between reacting
yeah, 100%.
Lately I've heard it describedas the difference between
reacting which is like automaticand mindless, and responding,
which has some thought behind it.
It doesn't mean responding isalways positive and always
productive, but at least youhave a better chance of going in
a productive or positive waythan if you just respond knee
(38:46):
jerk, don't like fix, don't likefix, don't like fix, don't like
fix.
You have no shot then.
Speaker 2 (38:51):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
So what would you tell somebody that?
Okay, you know what you guyshave sold me on this.
Maybe I want to learn how tostart to learn, how to do not
doing.
Where do you start?
What would you tell somebody?
Speaker 2 (39:05):
You know I start very small Two minutes, like two to
three minutes, and I typicallywill use something more like an
attention training, because Ihave found doing this work if I
say mindfulness-based meditationor something eyes roll.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
That's a good point.
I'm going to use that too,thank you.
I just learned something Smart.
Speaker 2 (39:35):
Yeah, I mean I just feel like the word has so much,
like it just means I get toomuch.
So attention training and soreally training that once you
start to notice that yourattention is getting hijacked,
you know, bring it back towhatever your anchor is, and so
we will practice it in session.
(39:57):
So if your anchor is yourbreath or the spot on the wall
or whatever it is, you just keepcoming back.
Speaker 1 (40:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:08):
For, you know, two minutes.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
I like that.
I like attention training,Because you're right when you
say things like mindfulness ormeditation, sometimes the
connotations and theprejudgments are there.
Speaker 2 (40:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:21):
Meditation doesn't work.
Everybody tells you to meditatemy anxiety way no, no, no, no,
no.
Let's just work on awarenessfirst.
How's that?
Speaker 2 (40:26):
Yeah, you know.
And so there's so many videosthat I don't you know they don't
particularly like, it justdoesn't I don't know, I've never
really like gotten into them.
But online on YouTube there'stons of attention training with
sound that people can access,where you know you have to pay
(40:50):
attention to one sound and thenthey put another sound in that.
But I just do two to threeminutes that when you notice
that your attention is being,you know, hijacked, just bring
it back and set a timer and youknow three minutes is.
It's a small enough amount,it's like a lightweight.
Speaker 1 (41:12):
Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right.
And people will often wonderlike well, how long do you sit
for?
Well, I can do 45 minutes.
You know, I've never known anhour, I've never done that.
I don't always do 45 minutes.
10, 15 minutes is fine for me,but that's a very long time for
a person who's never done it.
I wouldn't have been able to do15 minutes back then.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
And I think the data like when I was reading Peak
Mind by Amishi Jha, which I lovethat book, 12 minutes is what a
lot of the research showed thatif you really want the changes
in your brain, you know, I thinkyou need like five or five days
a week at 12 minutes a day,which I think is, you know,
(41:52):
that's more palatable for peopleI don't know that, you know
people, you know 45 minutes Ifeel like is so that's asking a
ton.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
It really is.
You're really buying into alifestyle change.
But you don't have to do that.
I am with you.
I have people who start with 30seconds a minute.
If that's all they think theycan tolerate, it's okay to do
that, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (42:13):
Get it in four or five times a day, then that's
fine, that's fine, yeah, and Ibelieve in her book and that
book is so interesting.
She's the one who's done allthe research with the armed
forces.
Speaker 1 (42:26):
Oh, cool Okay.
Speaker 2 (42:31):
Bringing attention, training, mindfulness-based
meditation to the armed forces.
Really interesting Peak mind.
She does 12 minutes.
Speaker 1 (42:38):
Yeah, that's doable, right.
I mean, maybe for a beginnerit's not, but you could get to
12 minutes.
Speaker 2 (42:42):
Yeah, and she starts smaller.
Speaker 1 (42:45):
And you know, I think what's great about that is part
of the practice is just, you'reallowed there's no outcome here
and even if you suck at it for12 minutes, you're allowed to
try this for 12 minutes.
It's okay.
It's safe to not problem solveyour anxiety or your OCD.
It's safe to let go.
It's safe to stop recovering.
It's safe to be not productive.
That's just by itself.
(43:07):
Just taking the 12 minutes orthe three minutes, that's a good
start.
I'm allowed to do this.
I'm allowed to try this forthree minutes.
That's allowed, Right.
Speaker 2 (43:16):
Yeah, I mean, most people are engaging in so many
behaviors that are, you know,that are making their anxiety or
their, you know, their OCD ortheir anxiety disorder so much
worse.
And you know, you know sosomething has to give.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
Yeah, and it's that there's so many lessons we can
talk about this.
We can do a whole series onthis.
Speaker 2 (43:42):
Yeah, we've talked about doing.
Speaker 1 (43:44):
Yes, I know, like we could keep doing a bunch of
these things, but I think, inthe end, the lessons for me is
learning what it so when peoplesay I don't understand, how do I
learn to surrender?
How do I learn to tolerate, howdo I learn to stop fighting?
This is how you learn.
This is a key part to me in howyou learn.
You have to almost be willingto say I, you know, this doesn't
(44:08):
, I don't think I could donothing.
I want to understand the idea.
Of course, I have to dosomething, but if that's not
working for you, I think it'sreally important to do this kind
of work, because this teachesyou what it feels like to let go
, to not solve it, to not fightit, to not manipulate it, to not
try to control it.
How do you even know what thatfeels like when people ask
(44:29):
people like you and I well, whatdoes it even look like?
I don't understand.
You're telling me that I haveto let my heart race, for
instance, or I have to have thatscary thought and just let it
be there.
What does that even look like?
Well, clearly, what you'retelling me is you have no
reference for what not doing iseven like which many people in
the West don't have.
Here's a way to start to lookat that to start to look through
that lens.
(44:50):
It's not specific to youranxiety or your OCD, but it's a
way to start to at least putthat lens in front of you so you
can look through the do nothinglens.
Speaker 2 (44:57):
Right, and my feeling is, if you can like get a
glimpse of that like this is thefirst step If you can get a
glimpse of how to do that as yousit there, as you sit, and you
get a glimpse of how you becomean observer and you just observe
, then we begin to get thatprocess and then we add in a
(45:25):
little bit more distress to itand then it's the same process,
but then we add in more and moredistress as we begin to take
that out from the mat into theworld.
Speaker 1 (45:38):
Yeah, so it has application, even though it
might be.
If nothing else, if you takeanything out of the last 40
minutes, it's.
Can I at least consider thatthis thing where I learned how
to literally learn how to donothing and practice doing
nothing, maybe it does have avalue.
What if you at least considerthe possibility that it might
have some sort of value?
That's all I would ask peopleto take away from this.
Speaker 2 (46:02):
Right, because this is the formal.
Sitting on the cushion or thesitting on the floor is the
formal practice, but theinformal is how we then put it
into the, how we then take those, that awareness, into the world
, which I think is the value,you know, part of the next step.
Speaker 1 (46:18):
Yeah.
So if you, you know you workwith Joanna and she tries to
teach you how to do threeminutes of attention, you know,
just paying attention, it wouldbe very easy to do a little eye
roll or just immediately dismissit, prejudge it Like this isn't
going to work.
How is this ever going to calmme down?
It's not supposed to Just giveit a chance.
So one of the more interestingthings and I guess we'll wrap up
that I get out of the wholeMBSR training thing is when
(46:41):
people do the formal eight-weekMBSR thing, which they could do
at UMass or any number of placesthat does that, what they're
really told is like you need tohave beginner's mind on this,
like I know you might judge it.
As this isn't going to work,you don't have to like it, you
don't even have to get aresponse or a result from it.
All we ask is, if you commit toit, do it for the eight weeks
and then tell us at the end ofeight weeks what it was.
(47:02):
How's that?
So same thing Just do the threeminutes, try it and then see
what it looked like, and then doit again and again and often,
as you and you know what, in twoweeks you may decide I'm out,
okay, but at least you tried it,yeah, so fair enough, right?
Speaker 2 (47:15):
Yeah, fair enough.
Speaker 1 (47:16):
Anything you want to add to sort of end the
discussion.
Speaker 2 (47:19):
I don't think so.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
How can people find you, my friend?
Speaker 2 (47:23):
They can find me on my website, joannahardestcom.
Will you link it so I don'thave to spell it?
Speaker 1 (47:29):
I will definitely.
Speaker 2 (47:29):
It's super annoying when I have to spell it.
Speaker 1 (47:31):
What episode did I say this was 305.
So if you go totheanxioustruthcom slash 305, or
you're on YouTube or you'relistening as a podcast, I will
link it in the description.
Speaker 2 (47:40):
And can I plug that?
I have a free mini course thatpeople might be interested in.
So it's a free mini course thatmight help people get unstuck
and it is six videos over thecourse of 10 days where I walk
you through how to make a smallbehavioral change and maybe your
small behavioral changes.
Do you want to start a threeminute attention training
(48:04):
practice?
Speaker 1 (48:05):
I'm going to sign up for that.
Let me be very clear.
You guys on social media youhear me kind of poo poo all the
time, the courses and the stuff.
This person sitting on videowith me right now I trust
implicitly.
Speaker 2 (48:15):
Oh, that is so kind, drew.
I appreciate that, joanna isnot.
Speaker 1 (48:19):
She is as ethical as they get.
This is not a ooh.
How can I make $2 millionselling shitty courses to people
?
She ain't doing that, so gocheck it out Free.
Speaker 2 (48:27):
I'm not even making.
How could I make $2 million?
Speaker 1 (48:30):
Anyway, thank you, my friend, we'll do more of these.
I miss doing them with you.
Speaker 2 (48:33):
I know, this is so fun.
Speaker 1 (48:35):
It always is.
Guys, if you stay tuned, I willcome back and do a little
wrap-up, like I always do, withmore links and everything.
And yeah, see you guys later.
And we are back in the studio,which, as you can see, I have
the same silly baseball cap on.
I'm still looking pretty sleepdeprived.
I'm in the exact same placethat I was like 10 seconds ago.
So there is no studio, it'sjust my desk.
(48:57):
It's fine, you're used to thisby now, but I hope you enjoy the
conversation with Joanna.
Again, I cannot stress enoughJoanna is somebody that I trust
implicitly.
She knows her stuff and she wasa great guest to have to talk
about this topic.
We're going to cover this morein the future.
For sure We'll fill in somedetails.
We may offer some programs onthis to help you learn a little
bit more about it or try it outTalking about that.
(49:17):
I don't know what it's going tolook like, but we'll see.
If you want to know more aboutJoanna, if you're watching on
YouTube, I will put a link toher website in the video
description.
I'm going to pop it up on thescreen right now.
If you're watching the video,if you're listening on a podcast
app, look at the podcastdescription I'll link to her
website Also, it'sJoannaHardestcom.
Or if you're on my website atTheAnxiousTruthcom, slash 305,
(49:39):
listening, watching or readingthe show notes, there'll be a
link on this page toJoannaHardestcom as well.
You well, you could check outall of her cool stuff.
Follow her on social media.
Check out the book that shewrote, which is literally called
just do nothing, and it speaksto this particular topic.
But she's she's one of the goodones for sure.
She's not trying to takeadvantage of anybody and she's
not trying to sell you snake oil.
So go check out my friendJoanna and if you hook up with
(49:59):
her in any way, just tell her.
I sent you.
And that is episode 305 of theanxious truth in the books.
I don't think I'm going to dothe music thing, or maybe I will
.
We'll see how I feel when Iedit all this.
But remember there is somethingto the learning to do nothing.
It is a valuable thing.
Joanna includes it in the workthat she does with her therapy
clients.
I include it in the work I dowith my therapy clients and if
(50:19):
you're thinking cool, I learnedhow to instantly calm down or
shut down my scary thoughts.
Got to back away from that alittle bit.
Align your expectations alittle bit more in line with
what it's supposed to actuallydo.
Maybe open up to the experienceof learning something that has
a longer term benefit.
That might even go beyondrecovery from your anxiety
disorder.
But I think it's worth lookinginto.
(50:41):
So consider what you've heardtoday and maybe poke around a
little bit more to see what elseyou can learn about it and
maybe try it for yourself.
Joanna and I may be working onsome programs on that that will
give you a little moreinformation or a little
opportunity to practice with us.
We will see how that works outProbably more coming on that in
the new year, in 2025.
So stay tuned for that.
But yeah, that's about it.
Maybe here I will put in themusic.
(51:03):
Anyway, we'll be back in twoweeks with another podcast
episode.
This one's going to have aspecial guest that I'm a little
bit starstruck about.
So come back in two weeks andyou'll see who that is.
It's going to be prettyinformative.
If you're watching on YouTube,maybe like the video, subscribe
to the channel, leave a comment.
I have not commented back toyou guys in like six weeks, but
I promise I am going to go back.
(51:24):
Hopefully next week I will havetime to answer my YouTube
comments.
Hopefully next week I will havetime to answer my YouTube
comments.
If you're listening on ApplePodcasts or Spotify or someplace
that lets you rate a reviewlive a four or five star rating.
If you dig the podcast andthinks it deserves, think it
deserves that, maybe take timeand write a review, because it
helps more people find thepodcast and then more people get
help.
That's why I'm talking to thissilly microphone.
To begin with, and if you'relooking at learning how to do
(51:45):
nothing and using it as part ofyour recovery strategy, remember
that it's okay to not be goodat it.
It's okay to not even be surethat it's going to work for you.
Even just the act of opening upto that experience and
considering it, trying it, is asmall step in the right
direction, and you always haveto give yourself credit for
small steps in the rightdirection, no matter how tiny
they are or how insignificantyou think they are.
(52:07):
They do add up if you'rewilling to learn the lessons
that they give you.
So thanks for listening.
We'll see you again.
Or watching.
See you again in two weeks.
Take care of yourself and we'llbe back again.
Speaker 2 (52:18):
We'll see you next time.
This week on a sleep-deprived.
Episode 305 of the AnxiousTruth, we're going to talk about
the value of learning how to donothing.
It's the act of doing, notdoing.
My friend, joanna Hardis ishere to help us with that, so
let's get into it right now.
Hello everybody, welcome backto the Anxious Truth.
(00:25):
This is episode 305 of thepodcast, or the YouTube channel,
depending on where you areconsuming this content.
We are recording in November of2024, in case you're listening
from the future.
Today's topic, aided by myfriend OCD specialist Joanna
Hardest from Cleveland, ohio, isthe value of learning how to do
nothing, or, as it's sometimesknown, doing, not doing, and why
(00:49):
we should probably invest timeand effort in learning how to do
that.
If you are new to this podcastor this YouTube channel this is
the first day here you kind ofaccidentally stumbled upon it,
maybe in a YouTube or a Googlesearch.
Welcome, I'm glad that you'rehere.
I am Drew Linsalata, creator andhost of the Anxious Truth.
I'm also a therapist, stillpracticing under supervision for
the time being in New York,specializing in the treatment of
(01:10):
anxiety and anxiety disorders.
I'm also a former sufferer ofall the flavors of anxiety
disorder and depression and OCDfor many years of my life on and
off, but much better now formany years.
Thank you very much.
I'm an author.
I've written three books onthis topic.
I'm a podcaster clearlypsychoeducator, mental health
advocate, social media guy allthe things.
But here, on the Anxious Truth,we're talking about anxiety,
(01:32):
anxiety disorders and strategiesfor learning about it,
understanding it and starting towork on overcoming these
problems.
So welcome if you are new.
Of course, if you're areturning listener or viewer,
welcome back.
I'm glad you're here.
I hope you guys find today'sepisode helpful.
What are we going to talk about?
We're going to talk about thevalue of learning how to do
(01:53):
nothing.
Some people call it doing, notdoing.
If you're familiar with Taoismor Buddhism, you may have heard
doing not doing.
I believe that comes out ofTaoism.
What are we talking about whenI say that?
If you have been around longenough, around this podcast or
the books that I write or thecontent that I create, you know
that we talk all the time aboutlearning how to not react
automatically to anxietysymptoms, to panic attacks, to
(02:14):
anxiety spikes, to scarythoughts if you happen to have
OCD.
We are learning how to not doanything about those things, how
to surrender to them, how towillfully tolerate them.
If you came here, through thework of Dr Claire Weeks, we're
learning how to float andutterly, utterly accept, as she
would say in her Australiangrandma accent, and people will
(02:35):
often say, ok, cool, I get whywe'd want to do that, but what
does that even look like?
If you've ever wanted to knowwhat does surrendering to
anxiety or OCD or a panic attacklook and feel like?
Learning how to do nothing,like undertaking, the formal
practice of learning whatnothing looks and feels like,
can be really helpful because ithelps you answer that
(02:56):
incredibly common question.
It may be completely out of therealm of your experience.
You have no frame of referencefor doing nothing because, like
any human being, especially inWestern culture, we are
constantly in problem solvingand fixing mode.
So doing nothing, the act ofdoing, not doing, is all about
becoming aware of that habit andworking on suspending it so
(03:18):
that we go from doing, which canbe overtly behavioral or just
mental mostly mental in ourcommunity into a state of not
doing or just being.
This is about learning to stopfighting against reality.
Because it's here.
You have anxiety because you'relistening to this podcast.
Clearly you are an anxiousperson.
It's already here.
You cannot deny that reality.
(03:38):
So how can you work with itbetter?
It's about learning how you area habitual doer, problem solver
, fixer, because we all are, andif we can gain an awareness of
that through the practice oflearning how to not do things,
we do give ourselves a betterchance of starting to learn new
ways to interpret and relate toand be with our anxiety, our
anxiety symptoms, even our panicattacks, our OCD scary thoughts
(04:02):
, things of that nature, and wejust get kind of better at doing
life.
So learning how to do nothing isa really valuable skill and
today my friend Joanna Hardishas joined me to have this
discussion.
Joanna is awesome.
She's one of those people thatI trust implicitly.
She's very well-trained.
She's a very experienced andethical therapist specializing
in OCD and anxiety disorders outof Cleveland.
(04:22):
We have worked together in thepast and I can't think of a
better person.
I can think of one other personI would have brought in in this
conversation, but it's hard tocoordinate the schedules.
But there's a person that Iwant to talk about doing nothing
with.
That would be Joanna.
So she is here to help us outwith the topic.
Before I bring Joanna on, justa quick reminder.
As always, the Anxious Truth ismore than just this video or
(04:42):
this podcast episode.
There's a ton of more thingsall on my website at
theanxioustruthcom.
I'm not going to pitch you,just head on over there if you
want to check it out.
Most of this stuff is free.
All of it is at at least verylow cost.
I have nothing expensive there.
The books are cheap, so you caneither find the rest of the
podcast episodes or the freesocial media stuff or all the
content I've created, or youmight avail yourself of some of
the low cost resources.
(05:03):
But check it all out attheanxioustruthcom.
I appreciate that, and if you'rewatching on YouTube, maybe like
the video or subscribe to thechannel.
That's a way to support thework that I do.
If you're listening on ApplePodcasts or Spotify, maybe leave
a four or five star rating.
If you dig the podcast or writea quick review, that's another
way to support the work that Ido and that costs you nothing,
(05:23):
but it does help me out andtherefore other people out, a
lot, and I appreciate all of youguys, no matter how you support
the podcast, even if it's justhanging out, watching a video or
listening now and then.
So let's get to it.
We're going to talk about thevalue of learning to do nothing.
Let's bring Joanna on, and thenat the end I will come back and
kind of put a bow on it, as Ialways Come on, come along.
(05:48):
Here we go, joanna what up?
It's been a while it's been aminute since we did one of these
huh.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
It has been way too long.
You're too busy for.
You're obviously too busy now.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
I, I.
It's very hard to get on mycalendar.
I'm that exclusive now.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
I'm joking you have.
It really is because it's beenover a year.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
Oh, it's probably since we did one of these like a
podcast episode together,probably at least two years.
I don't think we did one sinceI started my grad program.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
No, no, you know, because when the book came out,
oh, that's right, we did that.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
Yeah, what book did you write again?
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Oh, Just Do Nothing.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Just Do Nothing.
It's a good book, people.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Thank you, thank you, yeah yeah, the paradoxical
guide to getting out of your way.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
If you go.
I don't know what episode thisis, I'm so woefully unprepared.
But I will tell you right nowthat if you go to the anxious
truth slash, this is episodethree oh five.
So I'm going to the anxioustruthcom slash three oh five.
I have links to join.
It's a really good book.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
I agree.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
And it matches with today's topic, which is doing
nothing.
Before we hit the record button, joanna was like venting one of
her little peeves to me and shehas such an entertaining list
of pet peeves.
But when you write a bookcalled Just Do Nothing I mean we
talked about it on a previouspodcast episode I'll link that
also in the show notes so youcan listen to Joanna talk about
that.
But how do people misinterpretthat?
What do they think you meanwhen you say?
(07:14):
What do you mean do nothing?
Speaker 2 (07:15):
What does that mean?
Well, what they, what the oh.
They'll come up to me oh, Ilove this.
You're telling me that I don'thave to do anything.
I love it.
Tell my wife that now I don'thave to do anything and they
miss.
It's like I just shake my headbecause I'm not really telling
people.
They miss the whole second part, which is the paradoxical guide
(07:38):
to getting out of your way.
So they think what I'madvocating for is literally
doing nothing, like kicking backand, just like you know,
watching sports all day orHousewives or whatever, doing
nothing.
And that's not really.
I'm sure that's not what we'retalking about today, even though
you that's not what.
(08:00):
I'm talking about.
That's not how we get out ofour way.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
Yeah, we're not literally talking about like and
you know what.
It's funny because for peopledealing with anxiety disorders,
with highly avoidant copingstrategies, that could go off
the rails really fast.
So, like these two people toldme to do nothing, cool, I'm just
gonna stay home all day andjust read Right, yeah, we're not
talking about that.
So, I'm glad we got to clearthat up.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
This isn't early retirement which is also what I
get a lot of.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Episode 305, early retirement, which is what I'm
talking about.
Do nothing, yeah no, with yourfamily.
Do nothing, yeah no, that'swhat we're talking about.
So when we're talking aboutdoing nothing, I mean I have
come to the conclusion thatlearning how to do nothing or,
like you know I think it's theBuddhist or the Taoist will say
it's doing, not doing.
You know, like learning how tobe in not doing mode is one of
those skills Like at least inthe West, we should be teaching
(08:47):
everybody from the time we'reold enough to like toddle around
the house.
We should be learning how tonot do, to do, do not do.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
Yeah, otherwise, we're in constant doing mode all
the time, and especially asadults, especially in a society
that you know is always aboutimprovement and achievement and
goals and check boxes and allthat stuff we're always in
behavioral doing mode, but thenthere's the mental doing mode
too.
What does that look like foryou when you're in mental doing
mode?
We all do it, by the way.
(09:17):
Well, even we do it.
Both of us do it.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
Oh yeah, what does it look like for me when I'm in
mental doing mode?
Speaker 1 (09:22):
Yeah, you could be sitting like literally just
sitting on your sofa, but stillbe in mental doing mode.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Oh, yeah, I'm thinking.
I'm thinking, I'm planning, ohyeah, I'm thinking.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
I'm thinking, I'm planning, I'm replaying
something, I'm daydreaming, I'mon vacation somewhere else.
I'm just like.
You know, I'm in my head.
You know I'm in my head and youknow, I think, from all of
those things, all of the thingsI get, those, um, I also
discovered I can't.
In the last few months, itdawned on me like, oh, I'm in
constant judging mode, likemental doing is oh yeah, like
evaluating, evaluating, yeah,because I'm deciding what I want
and don't want.
What do I like and don't likeabout this moment right now?
(10:10):
Is this good?
Yes, like, how do I change itto get what I want?
Like, how do I resist what isbecause and don't want?
What do I like and don't likeabout this moment right now?
Is this good?
Yes, like, how do I change itto get what I want?
Like, how do I resist what isbecause I don't like what it is
and I want something different?
Like you know, we get in ourown minds yes, doing mode,
that's doing mode, that'sdifficult.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, even evenlike it's gray in Cleveland
right now and it's raining andand I was a vet, like you know,
(10:35):
hating on the weather- yeah,which is like you could not like
, though it's nothing wrong withnot liking the weather, but how
much time and effort do we likeautomatically put in the
resistance?
There you find yourself likeoverly hating the weather,
getting a little too carriedaway with hating on the weather.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
Yes, and then it's the oh my gosh.
It's the start of winter andit's the next five months, and
why am I still here and whyaren't I spending the winter
somewhere else?
And it's like this whole storyabout the winter that I get into
.
And clients get into.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
Yeah, that's a tough one.
So, and I think it's it's humannature, we all do it.
This isn't like oh, you'rebroken if you do that, cause we
all do it by default.
That's the way it goes.
Brains aren't meant to be quiet, they're meant to be active.
That's their job.
Yeah, well, I get it.
One suggestion would be to justcome to Long Island for the
winter, cause you know it's verytropical and sunny here in the
winter.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
I'm lying it's not.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
No, I know it's not.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
We're both screwed.
But isn't it funny how, like,you look out the window or you
get up and you check the weatherand momentarily you do have an
opinion about the weather, whichis okay, but then that goes
into like a 90 seconds or twominutes of unconscious like, oh,
you know, you know be so muchbetter to be in Florida or
someplace warm.
I hate it.
This sucks.
(11:55):
Like now I have to get mywinter clothes out and now
you're living in Februaryalready where you have seasonal
affective disorder and you wantto, like you know you're like no
motivated, sitting on the sofaovereating.
Wait a minute, what justhappened?
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Exactly.
And then I'm on a tangent in myown head about, you know,
seasonal affective disorder.
Do I know how to like?
Is that real?
How much of that is real?
How do I treat it?
Like I can just like go on andon in my own head and I have a
like fairly consistentmeditation practice and then I'm
hating.
Then I'm like why, you know, Iknow how to like.
(12:29):
I have a pretty good mindfulawareness practice.
Like how am I getting lost inthis shit so regularly being
critical of myself, like it's soyeah this is so relatable Same
thing, we are very similar.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Like I practice every day.
I'm actually doing the wholeMBSR teacher training thing, so
I'm spending I'm literallyspending a lot of time every day
doing the exercises.
This morning I'm in the middleof like mindful yoga.
I'm supposed to beconcentrating on how my body
feel, the movement in space andzoning, and I'm no joke, this is
legit.
I found myself wondering if youhad new glasses, cause I
(13:04):
haven't seen you in a long time.
We haven't recorded.
I'm like, oh, I wonder if shehas new glasses.
What a random, ridiculousthought.
Like I'm really not worriedabout your glasses, but I know
you wear glasses.
And my mind went to like I'mgoing to record later with
Joanna, like I wonder if she hasnew glasses.
I don't know why I thought that, but I did and it was like I
don't know how long my brain wasthere.
So I'm doing yoga but my mindis literally thinking about your
(13:27):
eyewear.
I mean, come on, brain.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
Really yeah it.
I mean, come on brain, reallyyeah, it's so funny.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
So I think it's okay to acknowledge that our brains
are built to be in constantdoing mode, but that can get us
into trouble, because now we'reproblem solving where we don't
need to be.
And from my take, the reasonwhy I think we should all learn
how to just be, which is theopposite of doing.
Just being is like life is fullof realities that we don't
(13:55):
really want or like, but wecan't do anything about them.
And then, when we're in doingmode, behaviorally and mentally,
we're resisting what is.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Right, but I think for a lot of clients and I think
this is where it may bedifferent for you and I because
we're at a different point inour recovery I hear from a lot
of clients at a different pointin our recovery.
I hear from a lot of clients.
They are like I hear all thetime I'm scared to be alone with
my thoughts.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Yeah, oh yeah, a hundred percent Like.
So when we introducemindfulness practice into, say,
therapy, I do have clients thatare like I mean they want to,
but they're also reallysurprised at how difficult it is
to hear that thinking, actuallyhear it.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Yeah.
So I think it's the question ofit.
May be it may sound reallygreat in theory and people may
be like, oh yeah, I totally amdown with what they're saying,
but what is the obstacle thatgets in someone's way?
Whether it's, like you know,people think it's just an
absolutely unproductive use oftheir time these relentless
optimizers or people who arejust terrified of being alone
(14:57):
with their thoughts.
Or, you know, it's someone whosays, like I can't possibly sit
still, or you know.
So I think that that is, youknow, something that we you know
that figuring out what it isfor whatever individual person.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
That is.
Those are the common obstacleI'm just afraid to be.
Especially, we're treatingpeople with anxiety disorders.
That's a big deal.
I'm going to hear my intrusivethoughts.
I'm going to hear the scarythoughts.
I'm going to hear thecatastrophic thoughts.
Yeah, true, Even fornon-anxious people that don't
have anxiety disorders, it'sreally difficult for them to sit
and hear their thoughts.
And I think the other thingthat they wind up doing, whether
(15:35):
they're anxious or not, I knowfor most of my clients that
start to try this stuff, it iswell, it's not working.
It's the expectation of whatit's supposed to be, but you
don't understand.
Like 10 minutes into it, mymind was wandering and I was
just worried about what I wasgoing to make for dinner.
I'm like, yeah, I know that's,that's the practice, it's okay.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
Yes, yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
Yeah, yes.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
Yes, this doesn't.
This doesn't work for me.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Right, it doesn't work.
This isn't going to work for me.
Yes, yeah.
What do you think themisconception is about?
Like when you'd say like, hey,we really need to learn how to
go into not doing mode, what?
What is the biggestmisconception about what that's
supposed to do that you find?
Speaker 2 (16:13):
I think that people either believe that they're
supposed to, that they still arein an outcome mode, that
(16:33):
they're supposed to come out ofit because they see all this
bullshit on social media, thatthey're supposed to be calm
Afterward they're going to be,like you know, zenned out or
calm or relaxed, and whenthey're not, they think that it
was a waste of time.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Because they're not calm.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
Right, because they're looking for a particular
outcome?
Speaker 2 (16:56):
right, Exactly, yeah, Versus that, you know,
mindfulness is the work Like itis.
It is, and you know, that's whyI think of it as a as a fitness
skill, Like it's a mentalfitness skill, and it's work,
mental fitness skill and it'swork to constantly and that's
why I like this.
It's when people call itattention training, because you
(17:17):
have to constantly train yourbrain to come back.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
Yeah, yeah, you find these principles in a lot of
different if we're just talkingabout like therapy and treatment
, like they're in a lot oftherapies.
For sure, you know,metacognitive therapy is a big
component of that is attentiontraining.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
It doesn't look like traditional meditation and
mindfulness, but it's the samething.
I think it is anyway.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
And I think it's work .
But I think, if someone isgoing into it and they, and,
they, and, and, and they'reexpecting something, but again
that's the doing mode that theyhave an expectation of how
they're supposed to come out ofit.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
Yeah, I agree.
I think they're either lookingfor like a state this is
supposed to make me calm or thisis how I quiet my mind.
The number one question.
People ask me oh, you meditateall the time.
Yeah, I have a daily practice,I have for many years.
People ask me oh, you meditateall the time.
Yeah, I have a daily practice,I have for many years.
How do you quiet your mind?
Well, I don't like.
Often, I don't the.
The practice of not learninghow to be nonjudgmentally with
(18:20):
your noisy mind is the practice.
That's the.
If there's a goal, that's whatit is.
Yes, yeah, Can I just be awareof the fact that my mind is
noisy and that's okay.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Right, right, because those are kind of I don't know
if they're the same people, butalso people that when they're,
when they notice that, they'rereally anxious and then they'll
say well, in that moment I triedmeditating and it's like no, no
, no, that was me.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
I was a compulsive meditator when I was at my worst
.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
I was trying to meditate it away and that got so
frustrating.
So, yeah, that's not what weuse this for at all.
Yes, if you're listening tothis odds, are you dealing with
a chronic or disordered anxietyproblem?
No, do nothing is not atechnique that makes your
anxiety go away at all.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
The other thing that I found really interesting.
And look we're.
But we talk about this all thetime, you and I, when we get on
our phone calls and just rant.
But the messages that surroundthings, like being present,
being present, that is a keypart of it, that's correct, but
that gets twisted into anaesthetic, almost Like being
mindful, and the practice ofdoing, not doing, does not have
(19:32):
an aesthetic, it does not have alook, it does not have a
lifestyle.
I mean, actually I don't know ifthat's true, because what I'm
learning in MBSR training is itis a little bit of a lifestyle,
it's borderline cultish.
We'll talk about that someother day but at the same time,
like there's no aesthetic,there's no goal, there's no
outcome, it doesn't have to lookor feel a certain way.
We're trying to learn to justbe aware that we're always
(19:53):
thinking, doing and feeling lotsof different things and that's
okay.
Like it's the awareness machine, we start to learn.
If you learn to do not do, youstart to be able to watch the
machine work without gettingswept away by it.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
Right, right.
And then you were.
I think you think you know thisis the hard it's kind of, and
because I feel like this is thefirst step is like being able to
observe.
Being able to observe, you know, kind of the circus that goes
on internally and then beingable to live your life while all
(20:33):
of this stuff is happening.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Yeah, that's exactly true.
We always talk about thingslike can you bring the feeling
with you?
Yes, Because it's here anyway.
Trying to go away isn't reallyworking, so can you bring it
with you?
But you've got to be able to dothat by gaining an awareness of
it first.
It's like well, I'm having thesethoughts, I'm having these
feelings, or maybe you know,this sort of work is used for
people who deal with injuries orchronic pain, even terminal
(20:56):
illness, like yeah, my back iskilling me, I keep resisting it,
but how can I work with it,instead of trying to fix a thing
I cannot fix instantly.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
So that's really important.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
But I think it's building the awareness that like
, oh, oh, look, I'm trying tofix it, I'm fighting it and
that's making things worse forme.
I have no shot if I try tofight reality.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Right, right Right.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
Interesting.
One of the things that I foundthat and I brought this up in
one of the classes and I'mtaking these classes, but you
know well what did what you knowcame up for you, what surprised
you.
And one of the things that Isaid was how come so many cause?
You're using guided as part ofthe mindfulness training
curriculum.
Sometimes you're using guidedrecordings that the instructor
has given you at first.
You know that's the first wayyou get into it.
(21:39):
I'm like how come two of themended with gratitude?
That's.
That didn't seem right to me.
Like, if I'm going to be reallycause, that's that thing I'm
supposed to come out of itfeeling calm.
I should.
I should be able to have asense of gratitude and thanks.
I'm like, but do we?
How come, at the end of therecording, you're instructing us
to be grateful?
(22:00):
is that trying to make a feelingso, even in people who trained
for three years to get thatcertification to teach this
skill might default back to andit was interesting.
It was like, oh, didn't eventhink about that so interesting.
But then I'll hear otherinstructors that will say things
like well, as you end thepractice, just take a moment to
acknowledge that you just didthis.
(22:20):
Cool, I like that.
Yes.
I like that Neutral right Like Imight feel grateful, or I might
feel happy, I might feel proudof myself, or I might feel
nothing, or I might feel like Ijust wasted 45 minutes of my
life.
Either way, it's okay, right.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Right, I like that.
That's funny.
I did that training in 2005.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
It's no joke.
It's now three years.
It's longer to get the MBSRcomplete certification as a
teacher than it is for me to getmy, or you to get your master's
degree right.
Oh my gosh, it's really a longprogram now.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
I'm not going three years, by the way so, oh, I did
a week at omega.
I gotta sign up for that,clearly oh, I went to omega for
a week with john cabot zen andsaki santorelli and did a week
training yeah, that wasn'tcertified.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
I'm not certified well, I don't know if they,
maybe they didn't that back then.
We're off on a tangent a littlebit, but it really surprised me
.
Yeah.
So I'm like wow, three years oftraining for that.
There's a certification,there's a qualification to be a
teacher after a year, but it'sstill a year, it's not a yeah,
that's intense.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Yeah, it's Wow.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
Okay, back.
People who teach this canaccidentally fall into trying to
create an outcome.
So it's normal for us to wantto do that.
It's just our human nature,it's okay.
Yeah, yeah.
So what do we do?
You know what are we doing?
We find ourselves looking forthat outcome and then judging
what it's supposed to be, andthen it's not that, and then we
don't want to do it.
What do you do when you getfrustrated with it?
Speaker 2 (23:49):
When I get frustrated , when I get frustrated, that
I'm, when I get frustrated, whenI get frustrated, that I'm,
when I get frustrated, that I'mlooking for an outcome.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
Yeah, cause I think no matter how long we practice,
we get stuck in there, right?
I mean, people wear robes andmove to monasteries and try to
dedicate their lives for thisand if they're honest, they'll
tell you at 80 years old, Istill don't have it right, like
I'm still failing.
Yeah, so, like, what do you dowhen you find that, like Ooh, I
accidentally did get caught upin an outcome or I spent my
entire 45 minutes off and Godknows where in my head, right
(24:20):
the key there?
Speaker 2 (24:21):
I mean I am really trying and I and I mean I get so
many opportunities cause I failso often because I am so
self-critical of myself.
I am really, really trying tolike be kinder to myself, that
(24:43):
like, okay, you know, Iacknowledge that, like I am
human eight times out of 10.
I, you know it may not work,but two times out of 10 I am
getting better at saying youknow what I'm human.
(25:04):
I like I can't punish myself,like I'm catching it, I'm
noticing it and I'm human.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
Cool, okay, I mean two.
Two times out of 10 is betterthan zero times out of 10.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Yes, yeah, and I'm really trying to say like there
is nothing wrong with me, likeI'm human, and this is something
I'm working on.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
Yeah, what you just said I think is so important.
You know, learning to donothing, or learning the art of
doing not doing, which we'll getto the particulars, I think,
and how, what that sort of lookslike for people.
But you are, you're not in themidst of an anxiety disorder and
even you have to remindyourself I'm human.
It's okay to not do this right,cause there even is no right.
So for somebody who's trying tofeel better and there's no it's
(25:49):
okay to want to feel better.
We're not saying that youshouldn't want that, but it's so
easy to instantly take apractice like this and treat it
as a technique or really wantthe outcome so much that you get
critical of yourself and thenyou say you're even more broken
and you can't do it and you'refailing.
That's such a trap.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
Yeah, I don't notice it as much when I'm I'm.
I'm pretty good when I do aseated meditation of being kind
to myself when I notice that.
I'm like when I notice and Ilabel like mind wandering to
bring it talked about before Iam so hard on myself about, like
you know, making a mistake orlike anything that I do wrong.
(26:28):
So I am really trying to.
Joanna, like you're human,you're allowed to be anxious,
(26:55):
you're allowed to avoid, you'reallowed to bail and make
mistakes.
You're human, it's okay.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
And isn't that part of the whole psychological
flexibility thing, though?
Like I can be there.
I can be there with that too,so I can be anxious, I can be
upset.
I could be feeling like I'mfailing.
I could not feel so good aboutmyself today.
That's allowed too.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Yeah, and I've had some really like terrible
behavior on that court and withpeople saying like, aren't you a
therapist?
Speaker 1 (27:29):
And like that makes it even worse.
I want to start watching theCleveland news, cause you might
be on there soon.
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
It's just like me leaving, like walking out and
stuff, but but like really, andI am so hard on myself Like I
should be, whatever we don'tthis is not my therapy session
but but really leaning into youknow, trying to be kinder as I
make you know, because I'mhitting up against a lot of
distress and like really tryingto like leave the internal stuff
(27:54):
there and not do anything withit, which is some of what we
were talking about.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
Yeah, there's the not doing, learning to not do right
, the.
The skill of not doing is not.
Sometimes it's physically notdoing.
You're right, I'm just going tosit.
Yeah, that's one of my favoritethings is no.
No, I get 15 minutes now to siton my silly little cushion and
not do.
I'm allowed to not do any.
This is an exercise andliterally not do.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
There's no goal, just I'm just saying that, yes, I
find that is easier for me thanthen the next step, which is
taking it out into the world.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
I agree.
But you build that in that sortof formal practice and that's
why we'll get into this a littlebit more now.
But I think in that situationso you're struggling at
pickleball ball because you wantto have a certain outcome and
you can't get it and you getfrustrated.
That's where the skill of notknowing to not do is the mental
skill.
Oh wait, I am mentally tryingto problem solve this instead of
(28:48):
just like this is what I gottoday, maybe tomorrow I'll be
better or worse, I don't know,that's all out.
Yeah, learning that, that,being aware of this, like oh,
I'm mentally problem solvingpickleball.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
Right yeah, but I think for a lot of people the
physically not doing it's hard,yeah, and it's hard for parents
to not to just have unstructuredtime with their kids.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
That's true too.
Yeah, you find it in school, inwork, in parenting, in
relationships.
Yes, like not doing time is sovalid, and you know what?
There's been so much writtenabout this lately too the idea
that we have forgotten how to bebored, we've forgotten how to
be idle because we don't have tobe anymore, and then the
ability to just be in asituation for whatever it is,
(29:34):
without judging it.
We have lost that.
We're collectively losing that.
Yes, and I think you and I area similar age Like we get as
kids.
We did have to learn how to beidle and bored.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
Yeah, whereas now kids don't have to ever be, my
kids never had to be bored, yourkids probably never had to be
bored.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
We had quiet time.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
See that you're smart .
Yeah, you were teaching themhow to be bored or how to be
idle.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
They, they hated it.
The third one never had quiettime, Um, but the older two had
quiet time where they couldn'thave TV, they couldn't have
electronics and they had to justdo like figure out what the
hell they wanted to do.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
If your kids are listening, if Joanna's kids are
listening to this podcast.
I'm sorry.
Your mom was so mean.
Yeah, seriously there's valuein that, though you know.
But as a even if, as adults, ifyou didn't learn it and you
never you don't know what it isto be idle and quiet, and still
you can learn it now.
It doesn't matter how old youare, you can still learn it,
Never too late.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
Other than sitting on your cushion.
What do you do for it?
Speaker 1 (30:41):
Well, what I've gotten better at over the last
year or so in my practice, Iguess, and now I'm only in the
beginning of the MBSR trainingRtraining but like it is an
eyeopening thing after only fouror five weeks.
So I'm I'm very beginner atthat, but being able to, I'm
starting to bring it into otherareas, like I am a food as fuel
guy.
I am not a foodie.
I will cook sometimes but Idon't care how it comes out.
(31:03):
I'm not fair enough and I knowI'm weird that way I get it, but
that's the way I am.
Bringing it into eating hasturned into an interesting
experience too, because now Isee how mindless I am on that
and it's not helping me.
So, for instance, I learnedthis caused a lot of chuckling
in my house.
The breakfast I make isabsolutely awful.
(31:27):
I'll eat it anyway and not care.
I'll just wolf it down and like, okay, I'm done eating, but I'm
also reading a book or I'mlistening to a podcast or I'm
checking my email at the sametime.
That is not helping me at all.
So learning that and bringing itinto eating now and then I'm
not a mindful eater by habit andI'm not I accept that about
myself really taught me thatlike I'm using a thing that's
(31:47):
supposed to be good for me,fueling my body, and it could be
a little five or 10 minutebreak for my mind, and a
recharge was making things worsein my day, adding to the stress
, adding to the load, like whatthe hell's going on and I was
eating crap.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
So like all.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
I have to do is cook it like two more minutes and
maybe put a little seasoning.
Oh the horror, it's an extra 10seconds and it's even enjoyable
.
Maybe put a little seasoning ohthe horror, it's an extra 10
seconds and it's even enjoyable.
Wow, what an eye opener.
How did I miss that?
I was, like today, days oldwhen I discovered that I'm
eating a terrible breakfast andbeing okay with that.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
Makes no sense, right ?
Yes, it's not like making ahuge life change.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
No, these are little tiny things here and there.
The other night it was a reallylong day came home and all I
wanted to do was chill and it'seven funny, because learning
this skill and practicing it iswork I had to motivate myself to
sit on a cushion.
How ridiculous does that sound?
It's eight o'clock at night andI want to do a night practice.
I know it's good for me.
(32:46):
I really want to do it becauseI like the practice, but also
I'm tired and I just want tozone out and numb out.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
I could not.
I had to motivate myself to sitdown.
Come on man?
Speaker 1 (33:00):
Yeah, but I also broke a box of light bulbs
accidentally in my garage and Iwas ready a long day and I just
wanted to get to the point whereI could numb out.
And in that moment the skill ofdoing nothing came in handy,
because I didn't rant and raveand stomp around the garage for
35 or 60 minutes and then numbmyself out scrolling YouTube or
Instagram for three hours.
I was recognizing what I wasdoing.
(33:23):
This happened I dropped a lightbulb.
What can I do?
I can clean it up.
Ranting and raving and mentallyproblem solving and judging the
experience would have made itmuch worse for me in the past.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
Right.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
Yeah, so that's where it's showing up for me
behaviorally, but it's a reallynot consistent.
It's hard.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
It is hard.
It is hard, but I think peoplecan make those little micro
shifts where they are just doingone thing, even like even if
someone just walks the dog, butthey don't, you know, they don't
listen to something right, justwalk the dog they just walk the
(34:02):
dog yep, yep, if you're gonnamake a cup of tea, just make the
tea, that's it.
Right, don't, don't multitask.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
Which, again, like you, have to be really learned
to be flexible when you do this,because your brain will try to
multitask and that's okay if youcatch it.
Come back to making the tea.
But the intention there wouldbe whether you intend to sit on
a meditation cushion for 15 or40 minutes or an hour however
long you can do or you intend tojust make a cup of tea, which
takes you three minutes.
(34:33):
That's the intention.
I'm going to just make this tea, then your brain will wander
off and you come back to the tea, the tea making or the dog
walking.
That's practice.
Speaker 2 (34:43):
Right.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
What about identity?
I always find identity issuescome up too.
You said that earlier like,yeah, but that feels like, but
I'm not accomplishing.
I'm the doer, I take care ofeverybody, I'm the problem
solver, I'm the, I'm themultitasker, I multitask.
I'm so good at multitasking,you know.
So sometimes it can you'reconfronting issues of like, but
I I'm I'm always supposed to bedoing that's correct to do.
(35:11):
Why are you telling me it'swrong?
But then we would?
Speaker 2 (35:13):
ask why are you listening to this podcast?
Right, and you know how well isit?
At what cost are youmultitasking?
Yeah, I always ask people likeat what cost?
And if you're a parent, youknow what are you mirroring for
your kids.
Because most parents, mostparents, want their kids to be
able to play independently, tobe able to focus, to be able to
(35:37):
do all these things, and then,if we're not able to model it,
it's very hard.
We wonder why our kids struggleso much to focus and to just do
one task other than, like youknow, scroll YouTube or whatever
they're doing.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
Yeah, I mean, and that's a very real thing, we all
know that problem in real life,whether it's with young people
or adults, it's almost universalLike no, it's the default.
What do you mean?
I want it.
Can I just have my iPad?
Well, what if?
What if you do sit silently forjust five minutes, could you do
it?
Speaker 2 (36:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
Yeah, but again we go back to the beginning.
The first thing is like, no, no, what is?
Why would I sit silently Topractice it?
To practice it not to quietyour mind, not to calm down, not
to have some sort of insight.
Maybe you will, who knows.
But like it's just the practiceof at least considering the
possibility that not doing, justbeing, is valuable, and I think
(36:30):
we've totally forgotten that,generally speaking, in our
society.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
Yeah, and being curious, I mean I think like
curious about what can come up,like I think you can get, I mean
great idea, you can get an idea, who you know?
Great things can come when wejust let ourselves be.
Speaker 1 (36:51):
Yeah, what I find people sometimes discover is
that when they cultivate thisand, believe me, there's no
experts in my life I do not knowanybody that would call
themselves an expert at thisEven if things don't come up in
the silent time or the quiettime, you get more room moment
to moment as you're living yourday for stuff to pop up that
(37:12):
could be productive.
Or suddenly you find thatyou're being more.
You're not trying to be moreproductive, but you are.
You're not trying to like beless anxious, but somehow you
are, because you're able tonotice like, oh, I'm having a
sensation in my body.
What if I don't try to problemsolve it?
What happens?
Things happen that you don'texpect.
Then it's good, yeah, right,yeah, I mean, that's why people
(37:36):
with things like chronic pain,they learn these type of skills
Like what if I don't problemsolve my back pain right now?
What happens to it?
And they will report lowersubjective pain experiences and
I don't know.
There are times when it fadesaway Like good.
Things happen when we practicethis.
Speaker 2 (37:53):
Yeah, you're putting that space.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
Yes, that's exactly right.
It's the building of theawareness that I'm problem
solving my back pain or my kneepain or my anxiety or my racing
heart.
I'm problem solving it.
Oh, I can see what I'm doingnow.
Yeah, now I might make adifferent choice.
What if I just let it be there,right, yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:10):
It's that thing that we've talked about.
I think we've talked about iton other podcasts that you're.
It's the difference betweenmaking.
Then you're able to make,instead of an emotion or a
fear-based decision, you're ableto do a values-based decision.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
Yeah, a hundred percent.
Lately I've heard it describedas a difference between reacting
yeah, 100%.
Lately I've heard it describedas the difference between
reacting which is like automaticand mindless, and responding,
which has some thought behind it.
It doesn't mean responding isalways positive and always
productive, but at least youhave a better chance of going in
a productive or positive waythan if you just respond knee
(38:46):
jerk, don't like fix, don't likefix, don't like fix, don't like
fix.
You have no shot then.
Speaker 2 (38:51):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
So what would you tell somebody that?
Okay, you know what you guyshave sold me on this.
Maybe I want to learn how tostart to learn, how to do not
doing.
Where do you start?
What would you tell somebody?
Speaker 2 (39:05):
You know I start very small Two minutes, like two to
three minutes, and I typicallywill use something more like an
attention training, because Ihave found doing this work if I
say mindfulness-based meditationor something eyes roll.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
That's a good point.
I'm going to use that too,thank you.
I just learned something Smart.
Speaker 2 (39:35):
Yeah, I mean I just feel like the word has so much,
like it just means I get toomuch.
So attention training and soreally training that once you
start to notice that yourattention is getting hijacked,
you know, bring it back towhatever your anchor is, and so
we will practice it in session.
(39:57):
So if your anchor is yourbreath or the spot on the wall
or whatever it is, you just keepcoming back.
Speaker 1 (40:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:08):
For, you know, two minutes.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
I like that.
I like attention training,Because you're right when you
say things like mindfulness ormeditation, sometimes the
connotations and theprejudgments are there.
Speaker 2 (40:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:21):
Meditation doesn't work.
Everybody tells you to meditatemy anxiety way no, no, no, no,
no.
Let's just work on awarenessfirst.
How's that?
Speaker 2 (40:26):
Yeah, you know.
And so there's so many videosthat I don't you know they don't
particularly like, it justdoesn't I don't know, I've never
really like gotten into them.
But online on YouTube there'stons of attention training with
sound that people can access,where you know you have to pay
(40:50):
attention to one sound and thenthey put another sound in that.
But I just do two to threeminutes that when you notice
that your attention is being,you know, hijacked, just bring
it back and set a timer and youknow three minutes is.
It's a small enough amount,it's like a lightweight.
Speaker 1 (41:12):
Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right.
And people will often wonderlike well, how long do you sit
for?
Well, I can do 45 minutes.
You know, I've never known anhour, I've never done that.
I don't always do 45 minutes.
10, 15 minutes is fine for me,but that's a very long time for
a person who's never done it.
I wouldn't have been able to do15 minutes back then.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
And I think the data like when I was reading Peak
Mind by Amishi Jha, which I lovethat book, 12 minutes is what a
lot of the research showed thatif you really want the changes
in your brain, you know, I thinkyou need like five or five days
a week at 12 minutes a day,which I think is, you know,
(41:52):
that's more palatable for peopleI don't know that, you know
people, you know 45 minutes Ifeel like is so that's asking a
ton.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
It really is.
You're really buying into alifestyle change.
But you don't have to do that.
I am with you.
I have people who start with 30seconds a minute.
If that's all they think theycan tolerate, it's okay to do
that, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (42:13):
Get it in four or five times a day, then that's
fine, that's fine, yeah, and Ibelieve in her book and that
book is so interesting.
She's the one who's done allthe research with the armed
forces.
Speaker 1 (42:26):
Oh, cool Okay.
Speaker 2 (42:31):
Bringing attention, training, mindfulness-based
meditation to the armed forces.
Really interesting Peak mind.
She does 12 minutes.
Speaker 1 (42:38):
Yeah, that's doable, right.
I mean, maybe for a beginnerit's not, but you could get to
12 minutes.
Speaker 2 (42:42):
Yeah, and she starts smaller.
Speaker 1 (42:45):
And you know, I think what's great about that is part
of the practice is just, you'reallowed there's no outcome here
and even if you suck at it for12 minutes, you're allowed to
try this for 12 minutes.
It's okay.
It's safe to not problem solveyour anxiety or your OCD.
It's safe to let go.
It's safe to stop recovering.
It's safe to be not productive.
That's just by itself.
(43:07):
Just taking the 12 minutes orthe three minutes, that's a good
start.
I'm allowed to do this.
I'm allowed to try this forthree minutes.
That's allowed, Right.
Speaker 2 (43:16):
Yeah, I mean, most people are engaging in so many
behaviors that are, you know,that are making their anxiety or
their, you know, their OCD ortheir anxiety disorder so much
worse.
And you know, you know sosomething has to give.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
Yeah, and it's that there's so many lessons we can
talk about this.
We can do a whole series onthis.
Speaker 2 (43:42):
Yeah, we've talked about doing.
Speaker 1 (43:44):
Yes, I know, like we could keep doing a bunch of
these things, but I think, inthe end, the lessons for me is
learning what it so when peoplesay I don't understand, how do I
learn to surrender?
How do I learn to tolerate, howdo I learn to stop fighting?
This is how you learn.
This is a key part to me in howyou learn.
You have to almost be willingto say I, you know, this doesn't
(44:08):
, I don't think I could donothing.
I want to understand the idea.
Of course, I have to dosomething, but if that's not
working for you, I think it'sreally important to do this kind
of work, because this teachesyou what it feels like to let go
, to not solve it, to not fightit, to not manipulate it, to not
try to control it.
How do you even know what thatfeels like when people ask
(44:29):
people like you and I well, whatdoes it even look like?
I don't understand.
You're telling me that I haveto let my heart race, for
instance, or I have to have thatscary thought and just let it
be there.
What does that even look like?
Well, clearly, what you'retelling me is you have no
reference for what not doing iseven like which many people in
the West don't have.
Here's a way to start to lookat that to start to look through
that lens.
(44:50):
It's not specific to youranxiety or your OCD, but it's a
way to start to at least putthat lens in front of you so you
can look through the do nothinglens.
Speaker 2 (44:57):
Right, and my feeling is, if you can like get a
glimpse of that like this is thefirst step If you can get a
glimpse of how to do that as yousit there, as you sit, and you
get a glimpse of how you becomean observer and you just observe
, then we begin to get thatprocess and then we add in a
(45:25):
little bit more distress to itand then it's the same process,
but then we add in more and moredistress as we begin to take
that out from the mat into theworld.
Speaker 1 (45:38):
Yeah, so it has application, even though it
might be.
If nothing else, if you takeanything out of the last 40
minutes, it's.
Can I at least consider thatthis thing where I learned how
to literally learn how to donothing and practice doing
nothing, maybe it does have avalue.
What if you at least considerthe possibility that it might
have some sort of value?
That's all I would ask peopleto take away from this.
Speaker 2 (46:02):
Right, because this is the formal.
Sitting on the cushion or thesitting on the floor is the
formal practice, but theinformal is how we then put it
into the, how we then take those, that awareness, into the world
, which I think is the value,you know, part of the next step.
Speaker 1 (46:18):
Yeah.
So if you, you know you workwith Joanna and she tries to
teach you how to do threeminutes of attention, you know,
just paying attention, it wouldbe very easy to do a little eye
roll or just immediately dismissit, prejudge it Like this isn't
going to work.
How is this ever going to calmme down?
It's not supposed to Just giveit a chance.
So one of the more interestingthings and I guess we'll wrap up
that I get out of the wholeMBSR training thing is when
(46:41):
people do the formal eight-weekMBSR thing, which they could do
at UMass or any number of placesthat does that, what they're
really told is like you need tohave beginner's mind on this,
like I know you might judge it.
As this isn't going to work,you don't have to like it, you
don't even have to get aresponse or a result from it.
All we ask is, if you commit toit, do it for the eight weeks
and then tell us at the end ofeight weeks what it was.
(47:02):
How's that?
So same thing Just do the threeminutes, try it and then see
what it looked like, and then doit again and again and often,
as you and you know what, in twoweeks you may decide I'm out,
okay, but at least you tried it,yeah, so fair enough, right?
Speaker 2 (47:15):
Yeah, fair enough.
Speaker 1 (47:16):
Anything you want to add to sort of end the
discussion.
Speaker 2 (47:19):
I don't think so.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
How can people find you, my friend?
Speaker 2 (47:23):
They can find me on my website, joannahardestcom.
Will you link it so I don'thave to spell it?
Speaker 1 (47:29):
I will definitely.
Speaker 2 (47:29):
It's super annoying when I have to spell it.
Speaker 1 (47:31):
What episode did I say this was 305.
So if you go totheanxioustruthcom slash 305, or
you're on YouTube or you'relistening as a podcast, I will
link it in the description.
Speaker 2 (47:40):
And can I plug that?
I have a free mini course thatpeople might be interested in.
So it's a free mini course thatmight help people get unstuck
and it is six videos over thecourse of 10 days where I walk
you through how to make a smallbehavioral change and maybe your
small behavioral changes.
Do you want to start a threeminute attention training
(48:04):
practice?
Speaker 1 (48:05):
I'm going to sign up for that.
Let me be very clear.
You guys on social media youhear me kind of poo poo all the
time, the courses and the stuff.
This person sitting on videowith me right now I trust
implicitly.
Speaker 2 (48:15):
Oh, that is so kind, drew.
I appreciate that, joanna isnot.
Speaker 1 (48:19):
She is as ethical as they get.
This is not a ooh.
How can I make $2 millionselling shitty courses to people
?
She ain't doing that, so gocheck it out Free.
Speaker 2 (48:27):
I'm not even making.
How could I make $2 million?
Speaker 1 (48:30):
Anyway, thank you, my friend, we'll do more of these.
I miss doing them with you.
Speaker 2 (48:33):
I know, this is so fun.
Speaker 1 (48:35):
It always is.
Guys, if you stay tuned, I willcome back and do a little
wrap-up, like I always do, withmore links and everything.
And yeah, see you guys later.
And we are back in the studio,which, as you can see, I have
the same silly baseball cap on.
I'm still looking pretty sleepdeprived.
I'm in the exact same placethat I was like 10 seconds ago.
So there is no studio, it'sjust my desk.
(48:57):
It's fine, you're used to thisby now, but I hope you enjoy the
conversation with Joanna.
Again, I cannot stress enoughJoanna is somebody that I trust
implicitly.
She knows her stuff and she wasa great guest to have to talk
about this topic.
We're going to cover this morein the future.
For sure We'll fill in somedetails.
We may offer some programs onthis to help you learn a little
bit more about it or try it outTalking about that.
(49:17):
I don't know what it's going tolook like, but we'll see.
If you want to know more aboutJoanna, if you're watching on
YouTube, I will put a link toher website in the video
description.
I'm going to pop it up on thescreen right now.
If you're watching the video,if you're listening on a podcast
app, look at the podcastdescription I'll link to her
website Also, it'sJoannaHardestcom.
Or if you're on my website atTheAnxiousTruthcom, slash 305,
(49:39):
listening, watching or readingthe show notes, there'll be a
link on this page toJoannaHardestcom as well.
You well, you could check outall of her cool stuff.
Follow her on social media.
Check out the book that shewrote, which is literally called
just do nothing, and it speaksto this particular topic.
But she's she's one of the goodones for sure.
She's not trying to takeadvantage of anybody and she's
not trying to sell you snake oil.
So go check out my friendJoanna and if you hook up with
(49:59):
her in any way, just tell her.
I sent you.
And that is episode 305 of theanxious truth in the books.
I don't think I'm going to dothe music thing, or maybe I will
.
We'll see how I feel when Iedit all this.
But remember there is somethingto the learning to do nothing.
It is a valuable thing.
Joanna includes it in the workthat she does with her therapy
clients.
I include it in the work I dowith my therapy clients and if
(50:19):
you're thinking cool, I learnedhow to instantly calm down or
shut down my scary thoughts.
Got to back away from that alittle bit.
Align your expectations alittle bit more in line with
what it's supposed to actuallydo.
Maybe open up to the experienceof learning something that has
a longer term benefit.
That might even go beyondrecovery from your anxiety
disorder.
But I think it's worth lookinginto.
(50:41):
So consider what you've heardtoday and maybe poke around a
little bit more to see what elseyou can learn about it and
maybe try it for yourself.
Joanna and I may be working onsome programs on that that will
give you a little moreinformation or a little
opportunity to practice with us.
We will see how that works outProbably more coming on that in
the new year, in 2025.
So stay tuned for that.
But yeah, that's about it.
Maybe here I will put in themusic.
(51:03):
Anyway, we'll be back in twoweeks with another podcast
episode.
This one's going to have aspecial guest that I'm a little
bit starstruck about.
So come back in two weeks andyou'll see who that is.
It's going to be prettyinformative.
If you're watching on YouTube,maybe like the video, subscribe
to the channel, leave a comment.
I have not commented back toyou guys in like six weeks, but
I promise I am going to go back.
(51:24):
Hopefully next week I will havetime to answer my YouTube
comments.
Hopefully next week I will havetime to answer my YouTube
comments.
If you're listening on ApplePodcasts or Spotify or someplace
that lets you rate a reviewlive a four or five star rating.
If you dig the podcast andthinks it deserves, think it
deserves that, maybe take timeand write a review, because it
helps more people find thepodcast and then more people get
help.
That's why I'm talking to thissilly microphone.
To begin with, and if you'relooking at learning how to do
(51:45):
nothing and using it as part ofyour recovery strategy, remember
that it's okay to not be goodat it.
It's okay to not even be surethat it's going to work for you.
Even just the act of opening upto that experience and
considering it, trying it, is asmall step in the right
direction, and you always haveto give yourself credit for
small steps in the rightdirection, no matter how tiny
they are or how insignificantyou think they are.
(52:07):
They do add up if you'rewilling to learn the lessons
that they give you.
So thanks for listening.
We'll see you again.
Or watching.
See you again in two weeks.
Take care of yourself and we'llbe back again.
Speaker 2 (52:18):
We'll see you next time.
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