June 18, 2025 • 33 mins
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How do real anxiety therapists apply mindfulness principles when working with real anxiety clients in real therapy sessions? Let's check out part two of my chat with therapists Lauren Rosen and Joanna Hardis. We all make heavy use of the principles of mindfulness in our practices, and in our daily lives.
What you'll learn in this episode:
- Why "being present" isn't about feeling calm or peaceful
- The concept of being "aggressively present" when anxiety strikes
- How mindfulness is really attention training, not relaxation training
- Why meditation for anxiety is like going to the gym for your attention
- The difference between facts and the meaning we make of facts
- Practical ways to interrupt anxiety spirals in the moment
- Why you can't just decide to be mindful only during panic attacks
Key takeaways:
- Mindfulness in anxiety treatment isn't gentle - it's about slamming on the brakes when your mind races toward catastrophic conclusions
- The goal isn't to eliminate anxiety, but to develop a different relationship with it
- You have to practice attention skills during calm moments to access them during triggered moments
- Recovery means feeling real fear but knowing you're not in real danger
If you missed part one (episode 318), go back and listen to that first for the complete conversation.
This episode offers a practical, no-nonsense look at how mindfulness actually works in anxiety recovery - not the soft-focus version you might expect, but the real-world application that helps people move forward in their recovery journey.
Resources mentioned:
- Lauren Rosen: theobsessivemind.com
- Joanna Hardis: joannahardis.com
- More resources at theanxioustruth.com
Remember: there are no small moves in recovery, only valuable ones. Keep at it - you can do this.
Support The Anxious Truth: If you find the podcast helpful and want to support my work, you can buy me a coffee. Other ways to support my work like buying a book or signing up for a low cost workshop can be found on my website. None of this is never required, but always appreciated!
Interested in doing therapy with me? For more information on working with me directly to overcome your anxiety, follow this link.
Disclaimer: The Anxious Truth is not therapy or a replacement for therapy. Listening to The Anxious Truth does not create a therapeutic relationship between you and the host or guests of the podcast. Information here is provided for psychoeducational purposes. As always, when you have questions about your own well-being, please consult your mental health and/or medical care providers. If you are having a mental health crisis, always reach out immediately for in-person help.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
How do we apply the principles of mindfulness and
mindful acceptance when treatinganxiety and anxiety disorders?
Well, this week we're lookingat part two of a conversation
between three anxiety therapists.
That answers that question, solet's get to it.
Hello everybody, welcome backto the Anxious Truth.
(00:22):
This is episode 319 of thepodcast we are recording in
early June of 2025.
In case you're listening fromthe future.
Today we're going to join parttwo of a conversation that I had
with my friends, lauren Rosenand Joanna Hardis, two other
anxiety specialists practicingin LA and Cleveland respectively
, where we talked about how weapply the principles of
(00:42):
mindfulness and mindfulacceptance when treating anxiety
and anxiety disorders with realclients.
If you have not watched episode318, which is the first part of
this conversation, go back anddo that now and then come here
and pick up as we finish theconversation and look at
directions that we might takegoing forward.
So, before we get back intothis chat that I had with Lauren
and Joanna, just a quickreminder that the Anxious Truth
(01:04):
is more than just this podcastepisode or this YouTube video.
There are way more resources onmy website at
theanxioustruthcom, includingbooks and social media feeds and
workshops and all the goodies,so head on over there to
theanxioustruthcom, check themout, avail yourself of all the
resources, especially the freestuff.
There's no reason not to.
I hope you find what you getthere helpful.
(01:32):
Let's get to it.
We're going to finish talkingwith Joanna and Lauren about how
the three of us applyprinciples of mindfulness and
mindful acceptance when we aretreating real anxiety and
anxiety disorders in realtherapy clients.
I hope you find it interesting.
So here we go.
When last we left our band ofthree here, we had done a little
bit of a role play where I wasthe anxious client and you guys
were the seasoned therapist,which you certainly are, and
(01:53):
what struck me about that washow different.
I even said it in the lastepisode.
I put a little edit in and saylook how different the
approaches were.
Same principles, vastlydifferent approaches.
So it seemed like it, or was itjust the way you presented it?
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
I think that there were maybe differences in terms
of like application, right.
So I think I started in on it,sort of talking about the
concepts and like being, becausewe were talking more about the
general day-to-day life that youwere having.
It's almost like anintroductory part of therapy.
(02:27):
And then, you know, joanna wasreally in the like, the
application in the moment, whichwas so like I actually really
appreciated that we hit bothsides of that Like it sort of
had a natural progression to it.
But I, I will say a lot of youknow the way that like Joanna
approached, in that Joannaapproached in the session when
it was happening that hey, canyou actually say this thing?
(02:53):
Can you actually say I'mnoticing that, I'm having the
thought that, or I'm having thethought that blank, because
sometimes just getting that thatgranular about the whole
experience is so crucial.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
But I think some of it may be also stylistically.
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
I think.
So I got more like direct,although I'm sure that in actual
sessions that would change overtime.
Naturally it was just a littlesnippet, but I got from Joanna
more like instruction or alittle bit more instructional or
coaching, and from Lauren I gotmore imagery, which was both
very helpful.
You combine them together likepretty solid right.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Right, I hope so.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Are you?
Speaker 2 (03:34):
feeling better.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
Well, and Lauren, identifying you know which I
remember being really impactfulfor you, how you.
You know how you were feeling,that you were feeling scared.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Yeah, that's a big part.
Thank you for reminding me that, because I was thinking about
that last week too.
Like Lauren, you were reallygood at that.
Like you must be really scared,right now?
Speaker 3 (03:56):
Yeah, I think that is what she said.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
And I think that's such an important part, where we
use principles of mindfulness,we're trying to like objectively
describe the moment that we'rein and instead of trying to like
pretend we're not afraid, howabout we just start with like
I'm really afraid right now.
Okay, well, now, what?
Now?
What do?
Speaker 3 (04:13):
we do?
So, well, we're not doinganything with it, just like,
just like that's okay toacknowledge it, let it be there,
but we don't have to make,obviously, make meaning of it or
, you know, process it to death.
It can just be there, be inyour body, be in the room, and
then okay.
(04:34):
Well, how do you want torespond to it?
Like, what do you want to do?
Speaker 2 (04:37):
Yeah, and here's some other ideas to like kind of
what you were doing, as to whatyou can do with it.
I will say like to thediscrepancy that we're talking
about, though one thing that Ifound over time is like so much
of it is modeling that what youwere just describing in the room
with people is like, oh, you'regoing to, you're going to tell
me that you're anxious, and myresponse and part of this is
(04:59):
just now how I've learned torespond to anxiety more or less,
especially with other people islike, oh, yeah and right, like
that.
There's not like this bigreaction to it and I was
actually reading up on this isso nerdy.
Experiential avoidance inparents and how that informs
experiential avoidance andanxiety in kiddos and the whole
(05:22):
idea for those listening and whoare not as nerdy as I am, that
like the idea that like peopleare avoiding internal
experiences like anxiety and thethe the study showed that
experiential avoidance mediatedthe impact of being controlling.
Like parents being controllinglike that kids were more anxiety
(05:45):
anxious with controllingparents, but only if there was.
They were.
They were being controlling outof a place of like I don't want
to feel that way.
Um, which is interesting and anddoes speak to this idea of like
, if we show up in session andwe can telegraph to the person
that we're with like yeah, youcan, oh, yeah, okay, yeah,
(06:05):
you're anxious, cool Me too.
Now what?
That's a totally differentapproach than most people are
used to having, whereas, like,even really well-intentioned
anxious parents going like, ohmy gosh, you're anxious, what do
we do now?
Like, oh, this is a problem,right, Anyway?
Speaker 1 (06:22):
Well, there's that flexibility that you know, if
you look at the whole actinglike the triflex thing get
present, open up, do whatmatters.
Well, open up is the part where, like well, all right.
Well, you will usually only seeone option, which is fight this
or you know resist, or whatever.
But if you open, is thereanother possibility?
What else could that be?
And you're right, as clinicianswe might start with.
It's funny.
I said that to a friend of minethe other day.
She's practicing in Florida andshe's like I don't know, maybe
(06:44):
I should say it as this anxietydisorder thing and just stick in
my lane.
I'm like really Half the battleis just learning how to shrug
kindly when people are anxiousin your room, like that's where
you know.
So you start there like okay,that's a good place to, to be
aware, right, and watch theexperience unfold moment by
(07:08):
moment, like I'm anxious, I'mhaving this sensation, I'm
having this thought, I'm havingthis emotion.
Now what do we do?
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Right.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
Yeah, oh.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
And, and to Joanna's point, nothing right Like the.
The idea is that we do nothingwith that, but you have to be
aware that that's happening inorder to not respond to it Right
and then to just pivot towardwhat matters to you.
Um back to the present, rightLike, and really um grounding in
your sensory experience of thehere and now to the best of your
(07:38):
ability, cause that's wherelife is Right Like yeah, we're
talking about it before we hitthe record button, the that word
being present sometimes I findthat that's a challenge too,
because the word presence comeswith all kinds of imagery and
connotations and they peoplelike qualities to presence.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
Like presence means calm, presence means clear
clarity.
Right, I'm being present, yes,fully engaged.
Like all right, maybe, butreally I think, in our context
that we're working on here,presence is like a hard slam on
the brakes, like there ain't,there's nothing gentle about it.
It's the moment, it's beingable to observe and describe
(08:19):
what's happening and then stop.
That's all that's happening.
And like the idea that thismeans I'm dying, or this means
I'm having a stroke, or thismeans I'm this far from insanity
.
That is going out.
That's going beyond what'sactually happening right now.
Right, presence is justslamming on the brakes.
Yeah, stopping for a secondbefore you jump to that last
conclusion.
Speaker 3 (08:38):
Right, it takes people a lot of practice.
It's um, I have it as one of myshameless plug for my book.
One of my mental fitness skillsis practicing the difference
between identifying the facts ofthe situation and then the
meaning you make of the facts.
Yeah, and I think it's reallyhelpful in session even for
(08:59):
people to practice that, becauseit's hard to do.
Yeah, I mean, even like we weretalking before we started
recording, after we recorded,and I found myself ruminating,
you know, starting to go downthat path, about you know how
much I screwed up and all ofthat.
The facts were.
(09:19):
We recorded.
You know, I said some things.
The meaning I made was that,you know, I didn't know what I
was talking about and I saidsomething stupid and they're
going to kick me out of thisgroup and all of that that was
you know none of it happened,except in my mind.
Yeah, I'm joking, but I had.
(09:41):
It was a process of me likeliterally nine times over the
weekend, you know, bringingmyself back and doing that
separation.
Now you know, I think we're all, we all practice this stuff all
the time, so we know to do that.
But I think that's how granular, using that word that Lauren
brought up, we have to helppeople.
(10:02):
You know people get to, yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Yeah, and I think, building off of that and
combining what you were saying,drew, about how abrupt that
process is, it's not soft, it'slike the catching yourself.
You can be gentle about it, butI often say to my clients I need
you to be aggressively present,not like you know, like we're
(10:27):
not talking, like it's like the,the interrupt button, right,
that's what we're looking to do.
We're looking to interrupt themomentum of this thing that will
otherwise carry you off and,like Joanna was describing, like
okay, I'm, I'm ruminating, andI too was, like you know, second
guessing myself and no, well,did I do it?
Right?
Or?
But to be able to say, oh, look, I'm thinking, oh, okay, I'm,
(10:49):
I'm not, but that's not what I'mdoing right now.
Like, right now I'm playingwith my, my baby, right, like.
So I'm just going to bring myattention back to the smile on
her face and the sound of hergiggles.
And, yeah, the thoughts arestill going to be there and the
feelings are still going to bethere, but I don't want to miss
this moment so that I can tryand figure out whether or not I
screwed something up on apodcast, right?
Speaker 1 (11:09):
That's really good.
Aggressively present is reallygreat, like when I'm like
Joanna's pretty directive andwhen we did the role play.
When I'm working with clients,I will often you know, you're
kind of learning this skill, soyou're coaching them through it
I will often say that's not whatI asked.
All the time, yeah.
(11:30):
So ask yourself that questionLike wait, is that?
Is that a question that wasactually asked here?
I'm answering your question.
That doesn't need to be asked.
You know well what's going onright now.
Well, it feels like that's notwhat I asked.
I asked what's going on rightnow, not what it feels like.
So, yeah, there's a.
There's a little bit ofaggressive presence in that.
I like it.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
Totally, we should get shirts that say that we can
get shirts that say like crossout, be present, because I hate
those dumb shirts anyway.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
And get aggressive, aggressively present.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Aggressively present.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
I'm so in for this.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Yeah, I think, I really think it's 530 in New
York, give me till 630.
Speaker 3 (12:05):
We'll have those t-shirts.
That is so true.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
I mean we're laughing , but I think it's a really
useful.
You know we're talking abouthow do you apply principles of
mindfulness, because it's soconfusing for people.
Aggressive presence is not softfocus.
There's no outcome to it.
It's really concrete and that'swhat we're looking for.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
And I'm going to go ahead and throw out, like the
cause it's always the dialectics, it's both sides.
Once you stop yourself, it isto soften.
Yes, right, like it is to justbe, instead of like it's not,
like I'm going to be perfectlypresent 100% of the time when we
totally see people get stuck inthat Like I have to be
perfectly present and that'swe've missed the boat.
(12:46):
It's just that moment ofinterruption is much more
aggressive than I think peoplethink it's supposed to be, which
is totally reflected in session.
When I'm like I'm going to askyou to stop Right, and and not
in a rude way, but like ifsomebody is ruminating out loud
and going over and over thecontent and telling me about,
like how, the meaning and how it, what, what if this and what if
that, that I me about, like howthe meaning and how it, what,
(13:09):
what if this and what if that,I'm gonna be like look, let's
pause.
Right, like right now.
Look at what you're doing.
You're doing it right.
Like.
You're doing it out loud withme.
Pause.
Do you really want to keepdoing that?
Can you instead accept thefeeling that's generating all of
this?
Speaker 1 (13:21):
yeah.
So the pause or the aggressivestop or hitting the brakes is to
not not so that you can do morethings better.
It's so you could do lessthings better.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Yeah, yeah, well said .
Speaker 1 (13:35):
Do less Cool, love it , but first you have to be able
to pay attention.
You've got to be able to payattention, or else you don't
even know that's happening.
Like you never see the choicepoint.
If it just stays on autopilot,you never see your choice point.
Speaker 3 (13:47):
Yeah, totally.
Right Cause you have to noticewhen you're starting to get
hijacked.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
Yeah.
So then let's apply that.
Like Joanna and I, you we'vedone some of those things.
We did a couple of distresstolerance things a couple of
years ago and we always talkedabout like bottom up, like
that's a hard sell too.
I find from my clients, like Iknow, you want me to teach you
how to be present, mindful andperfect when you're panicking or
when you're having a torrent ofthoughts about hurting your dog
(14:12):
.
That you don't want to do.
But we got to start from thebottom up.
You can't just decide to onlybe present when you're triggered
.
It won't, it doesn't work.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
Yeah, no, no, and I think we can also view it.
Maybe this is part of the cellis like again don't you want
that for your life anyway,because this is the only moment
that you're ever really alive in.
So if you're, if you're notgoing to be present, you're
going to.
You're going to miss themoments, whether you're anxious
or not.
So I, like, I think that thatcan be a way to support people
(14:43):
and really prioritizing thispractice more generally, so that
they're building the skilloutside of a level 10 panic,
which, of course, practicing anyskill when your new skill is
hard and then you add it, you'redysregulated and forget it.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
I mean, I'm a big, I totally am with you, lauren.
I'm a huge believer indiscomfort's discomfort, whether
it's.
I mean, obviously, if you'reyou know you're it's your worst
anxiety, that's going to behigher.
So and I know, Drew, we triedto sell this, you know.
So start with something likestart with something that's
(15:23):
easier, like leave your cellphone in a different room for a
period of time, and so you startbecause you're going to feel
uncomfortable, because to yourbrain that's so unfamiliar.
And so if you intentionally dothat, the whole practice is how
(15:43):
are you going to you can?
How are you going to responddifferently to the discomfort
practices?
How are you going to responddifferently to the discomfort
what?
Speaker 1 (15:51):
No, you finish, I'm sorry yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
So can you soften, can you relax into that
discomfort, because then you'reshowing your brain safety, which
we know we have to do, and it'sa pretty low stakes.
I know people are going to belike, but what if my kid calls
and it's an emergency Like no,like, come on.
If my kid calls and it's anemergent like no, like, come on.
(16:14):
The possibility of that is solow but it's something that they
can.
You can practice and build onand discomfort's discomfort.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Yeah, that forces you to.
It forces you to use that, thatwatching or that awareness
skill too, because I go.
I left my phone for that.
That's a good example.
I have my phone in the otherroom and like, ah, this is
foreign to me, I don't reallylike this, and blah, blah, blah.
But like, hang on a second.
You would have to watch thefeeling of discomfort arise in
you then.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
Yeah, you practice and you see, especially if
you're committed to more thanfive seconds, how your brain
will get used to it and yourbody will get used to it and
that, yeah, you can witness.
Yeah, the discomfort, like thediscomfort's going to go up and
then, if you just stick with itlong enough, the discomfort's
going to go down.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
And then maybe it arises again, right, but it's
like it's naturally fluctuatingover time.
It's one of the beautifulthings I will say about
meditation practice inparticular is that it really
gives you a window into thathappening, to watching the whole
drama of life playing out inyour mind.
Because, there's not a lot vyingfor your attention when you're,
(17:22):
you know, often eyes closed andfocused on something relatively
boring like the sounds in yourenvironment, right Like it's, it
really becomes clear that thatprocess that you're talking
about yeah, people tend to havea difficult time with like, but
okay, fine, mindfulness is goodfor anxiety, but it doesn't work
for me because they're notunderstood.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
They don't understand the difference, or like they're
not.
Maybe it's just a hard sell andit needs more explanation.
Like, no, no, no, theconnection between sitting on
your sofa or a cushion orsomething for five minutes on a
Tuesday morning and panicking ina plane because you think
you're going to open the doorand try to jump out because
you're so anxious?
There really is a connection, Ipromise, and that's that
sitting on your sofa or sittingon the cushion teaches you to
(18:05):
watch, to pay attention to themachine that's operating.
Yeah, and it's really hardbecause it requires patience and
practice and like, I wish Icould tell you how to just feel
better on the plane, but I can't, I don't, I don't, I don't have
a way to do that.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
But how often do you find yourself saying to people
like speaking of, like justwanting to feel better on the
plane or wherever, like howoften you say people like to
people when they say like well,it's not working, like what?
What does working mean?
Speaker 1 (18:31):
yeah, that's always.
I think we all ask thatquestion.
What does it mean to work?
What does that mean?
What do you hear, joanna?
What do people say?
Speaker 3 (18:37):
um, well, that is the work.
I mean, the meditation is thework, I mean, the mindfulness is
the work.
Right?
Speaker 2 (18:46):
right, that whole attitude of non-striving, yeah,
exactly.
Speaker 3 (18:49):
And I often describe it.
It's like it's, you know, it'sthe difference between the
formal and the informal is likegoing to the gym, cause you know
, a lot of people that I treatgo to the, you know, but they go
to the gym for their physicalfitness and like going to the
gym, we go.
Why do people go to the gym,you know, especially if they're
older people, they go to the gymso they can bounce back from
(19:10):
surgery, they can bounce backfrom health, from injury, faster
, and I'm like, well, it's kindof the same thing.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:19):
I've been playing, sorry.
Go ahead Like we.
You know you have to do theformal practice to get the
technical skills down of how todo it, so that when you're in
life and it's, you know, whichis like a series of exposures,
you know how to bounce.
You know, you know how torespond and bounce back better.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Because I practiced this.
I practiced this on my sofa.
Speaker 3 (19:43):
Yeah, yeah, but it's a brutal sell.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
It really is.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
Yeah, yeah, nobody, it's a brutal sell.
It really is.
Yeah, yeah, nobody's like, oh,yay, you mean, I just get to
like tolerate this.
This is fun.
I'm just going to sit here andlike watch thoughts.
That sounds delightful.
I have been playing around withthis idea like sort of
furthering this metaphor aroundthe gym, because I totally agree
with you, but maybe somethingto flesh out because it's not
totally thought through yet.
(20:07):
I find it really fascinating.
People don't go to the gym andexpect to get to a point where
that they will breathe less hard.
Right, the goal of like workingout isn't to necessarily never
have shallow like uh, breathing.
It's to do that so that youroverall system is more capable.
(20:31):
Right, like you're trying toexercise so that your
cardiovascular system is is likebetter, and I I think that
there's a relationship betweenthat and what.
Like this idea of the cell,right, um, because it's it's
like we're not trying to get youto watch your thoughts so that
you have less thoughts or youhave less anxiety or or any of
(20:54):
those things.
It like we actually need thosethings.
Like that's a part of it.
Just like going to the gyminvolves breathing heavier, even
though ultimately, the goal isthat you have better
cardiovascular health, whichmight lead you to actually
breathe more slowly or have alower heart rate.
Whatever Does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (21:13):
It does make sense.
I often try to tell people thegym thing that I throw in is
like mindfulness, practice andmeditate.
It doesn't seem like it makesany sense, but it's like going
to the gym.
But people will often say like,oh, so what I'm building is my
calmness, like, so I'm buildingcalm muscles or regulation
muscles.
No, it's the gym for attention.
Yeah, totally, you're takingyour attention to the gym and
(21:34):
exercising your attention.
That's what you're exercising.
Yeah, then we get back to thehard sell.
Okay, hang on, I have to learnto pay attention.
So I can do what?
So you can pay attention whenyou're really triggered.
So I can do what?
So you can choose to be reallyuncomfortable on purpose.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
Why would I do?
Speaker 1 (21:49):
that Call another therapist.
I'm out, yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
Well, and if you went to the gym and all you did was
focus on how much you hated it,especially if you're doing
something really hard at the gym.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
You're not going to last very very long.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
Yeah Right, this isn't working.
I put more weight on the barand I couldn't lift it.
It's not.
This is a gym, doesn't work.
Speaker 3 (22:09):
Yeah, I mean.
So you really do have to be.
You know you really have towork on zooming out, you have to
work on softening in some ways,you have to work like all of
these things.
You have to like it does work.
But I think people still havelots of people don't really want
to be alone, like I hate thisword like alone with their
(22:29):
thoughts, whatever that means.
Yeah, I mean, I think that thatis um, I hear that so much.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
Yeah, yep, it's a scary place to be for a lot of
people, I think.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
It is, but I think also.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
It's like people don't want to be alone with
their emotions.
Is really what we're?
Speaker 3 (22:45):
talking about Exactly .
Yeah, You're so right.
I think that that is yes.
I mean, I hear that so much.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
It's probably really good, lauren, because if I'm
alone with thoughts about pizza,I'm good with that.
I love pizza.
Thoughts about somethingdifficult make difficult
emotions and those I don't wantI can't but I want to be quiet
with those.
So I hear that.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
And how do I deal with this if it comes up?
Yeah, it's so hard.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
You know what I find interesting about the gym.
Let's stay in the gym for asecond.
What I'm really interested inis if you go to the gym,
especially if you are strengthtrained and Joanna can attest to
this if you have a big assloaded barbell over your face,
you are paying attention in thatmoment.
So, like what are you notpaying attention to?
How you feel, what you'reworried about, what you're
afraid of a psychotic break?
(23:32):
These are the things you're notpaying attention to because you
have no choice but to not falloff the treadmill, not get
sucked into the stair climberand not drop a barbell on your
face.
Yeah, so all important things,I suspect that exercise, the gym
, athletics, playing pickleball,whatever.
Like you are paying attentionto something for some extended
(23:53):
period of time and not payingattention to all the things that
your fear wants you to payattention to.
I don't know.
Yeah, that's sure, but also I'mpaying attention to something
else.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
Yeah, and I was going to cause I thought you were
going to go a total differentdirection with that, like cardio
exposure, right?
Speaker 1 (24:11):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
It's going up, you're , you're, you are literally
being anxious, like having a lotof the physical symptoms of
anxiety and learning that it'sperfectly safe to have them.
That's another.
So really, what we're saying isgo to the gym.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
I guess.
But I might suggest too thatlike people like well then I
should exercise, yeah, youshould.
Maybe you should exercise insomething that requires a little
bit more attention.
Just running on a treadmill youcan do mindlessly.
So you run on the treadmill andyou time travel into your
worries while you're on thetreadmill, so you don't get that
benefit.
You get the physical benefitbut you don't get the mental
benefit.
Speaker 3 (24:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
Yeah, so yeah Cause.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
I think a lot of people exercise in a.
You know, they're distracted,they lift weights in a way that
they're not really pushingthemselves.
I mean, I think there's like Ithink you're right that we can
do it in a very intentional way,where you have to cope.
If you're doing something,especially like working on
(25:12):
mastery, with exercise, likewith weight training, all those
voices are in my head about ohmy gosh.
Well, what if I can't get thebar up?
What if, what if?
What if, what if?
But I have to part.
A lot of my work is not puttingthe like, coexisting with them.
I can't make it the loudestvoice.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
Yeah, cause, otherwise you drop the dumbbell
on your face.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
That's probably another reason why'll bring this
into it too Might as well.
While we're at it, we talkabout, oh, mindfulness and
meditation for anxiety.
Well, we're trying to clarifythat and make it practical.
And then people often hearabout yoga too.
You should do yoga.
Why do we do yoga?
Yoga is just paying attentionto where your body is.
That's all it is.
It's not anything else.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
No, and it's also one of the things that I cause I've
I've had a yoga practicehistorically is like you have to
watch discomfort it's physicaldiscomfort, like it's very
clearly like okay, and my quadis burning, like this is
happening right now and I there,I'm just sitting here with that
, which I think actually has areally great parallel to
navigating anxiety and I willsay I think it's uniquely
(26:25):
positioned mindfulness andmeditation practice to navigate
mental behaviors.
I think that's one of the great.
I'm just finishing the book onthe mental compulsions workbook
for OCD and like the whole thewhole of it is on how do we
navigate mental behaviors, andlike the reality is we don't, we
(26:46):
don't know the differenceoftentimes between thoughts and
thinking, and then we get caughtup in thinking which, as we
were kind of talking about lasttime, is like it fans the flame
of emotion, right, and so wekind of continually build this
forest fire and it's so intense,versus learning how to go, that
sort of aggressive stop of like, oh, thinking right, like done
(27:10):
next, what was I just doing?
And whether that's getting backto the barbell or dumbbell,
what's the right terminology,you guys?
Speaker 3 (27:18):
It depends what you're doing.
It depends what you're doing.
I need so much instruction, or?
Speaker 2 (27:19):
dumbbell.
What's the what's the rightterminology?
You guys?
I'm not.
It depends what you're doing.
I need so much instruction.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
We'll teach you.
You can teach us yoga.
That's fine, that's cool, yeah,okay, so anyway, that that is
another 30 minutes on, like thepractical application of of how
we we can talk about this forweeks.
This is not an easy topic,necessarily, but, like I think,
if I was going to wrap it up andput a bow on it and I'm curious
how, what your bows will looklike, guys, but come on, put a
(27:46):
bow on it, I'm going to use itLike what is your bow going to
look like?
But my bow would be like.
You got to really supersimplify this.
Do not, do not overthinkmindfulness.
It's because I think a lot ofpeople do it Like it's just
paying attention, just practice,paying attention.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
That's it.
That's if I could tell you todo anything, it would be that,
yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
What about you guys?
What would you throw in?
Speaker 2 (28:10):
I think, like I love the simplicity aspect and I
think you're right Really honingit down.
The only thing that I found tobe like sort of an additional
piece of that that's been reallyimportant in my practice
personally and I've seen it beprofessionally is with with
kindness, right, like attend tothings in a manner that is not
(28:35):
like a drill sergeant it's not,you're not beating the hell out
of yourself, right?
That's where that like part ofthe non-judgment piece is, so
that's so important.
So like paying attention gently, like with the quality of
gentleness How's this for a bow?
This is the longest bow that'sever happened, by the way but
(28:58):
paying attention with kindness,so that and I'm going to borrow
from Stephen Hayes here you canget out of your mind and into
your life Right, like that iswe're trying.
I guess, ironically,mindfulness is really about
getting you out of your mindRight, like it's getting you
grounded.
Joanna said it beautifully lastweek it's like a neck down
versus a neck up, like let's getyou engaged, so that, yeah,
(29:22):
anyway.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
Or at least recognizing when you're in your
mind.
And is this workable?
Speaker 2 (29:28):
Do I want to be here?
It's not.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
Okay, well then I can move somewhere else.
I'll pay to do something else,yeah, so, joanna, you got a bow.
Speaker 3 (29:40):
Or are we like like stressing you out by making oh
my god, I'm so stressed.
I'm coexisting with it, though.
Um, okay, my bow.
I think what I would add isjust that we have to train this
attention.
That it's that we really haveto.
This is a skill we have topractice we have to practice the
kindness and we have topractice the skill of paying
(30:02):
attention.
It's not intuitive, it's notlike we're born with it, so it's
something that we have to bepaying attention like, training,
moment by moment.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
Yeah, so all right, very good, like I did last time,
I will come back and give youlinks and where you can finduren
and joanna.
You should absolutely befollowing along with both of
these guys, because they trustthem implicitly and they know
what they're talking about.
And actually, in the practicalmindfulness class that I've been
running, we're going to do ittogether.
So very soon, it won't just beme like teaching that the three
of us will be working on thattogether, and I cannot think of
(30:34):
two people I want to do thismore with than you guys.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Triple the fun.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
Triple the fun.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
So good, I'm stoked.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
Anyway.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
All right.
Speaker 3 (30:43):
Come back as much fun as you can have.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
Without pickleball.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
Without judgment.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
As much non-judgmental fun you can have
outside of a pickleball court.
Speaker 3 (30:55):
Hey, I missed it today for you guys, happily.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
That's a terrible, and look for the like I missed
it today for you guys, happily.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
That's a terrible and look for the like what was it?
Aggressive present.
Aggressive.
Aggressively present for theaggressively present t-shirt.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
Maybe we will, I don't know.
Maybe I'll make one.
Anyway, I'll come back in asecond and wrap this up.
I'll give you guys links.
Thank you both.
Appreciate you guys.
Speaker 3 (31:13):
Thank you All right.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
Awkwardly hit the end button.
Okay Well, I had a good timehaving that chat with my friends
Joanna and Lauren.
These are two people that Itrust implicitly.
They are very well-respectedclinicians in the anxiety
disorder community.
They know what they're talkingabout and they have a strong
mindfulness component in theirpractices and also in their own
lives.
So I trust these guysimplicitly when it comes to this
sort of topic and I hope youguys got something out of this
(31:41):
conversation Again.
If you missed part one, go backand watch episode 318 of the
podcast from two weeks ago.
So that's it.
If you would like to get intouch with Lauren or Joanna or
you want to follow them, I willput their links on the screen,
but Lauren is attheobsessivemindcom and Joanna
Hardest is at joannahardestcom.
If you'd like a little bit moredetail or show notes on this
episode, including the links toLauren and Joanna's websites,
(32:04):
you can go to theanxioustruthcom, slash 319, and I'll have all
the goodies there so you canfollow along with them if you
would like to.
If you're not, you reallyshould, because they know what
you're talking about.
That's it.
I will end this episode of thepodcast, like I always do, with
asking a favor If you'rewatching on YouTube and you dig
it, then maybe like the video orleave a comment, ask a question
(32:25):
.
I'll see if I can drag Laurenand Joanna in to maybe answer a
few, of course, subscribe to thechannel, hit the notification
bell so you know when I createnew content and upload it.
If you're listening to this onSpotify or Apple Podcasts as
just audio, then if you dig thepodcast, leave a five-star
review and if you really like it, maybe write a review, a little
paragraph or two that says whyyou like the podcast, helps more
(32:46):
people find it, helps morepeople get the help that they
need, and that's why I do thisto begin with.
So we will be back in two weekswith another topic on episode
320.
I don't know what we're goingto talk about, but we will be
here and remember.
If you could take something outof this podcast episode and the
last one, it would be that ifyou can apply the principles of
(33:06):
mindfulness to observeobjectively, without judgment,
what's going on, even whenyou're highly triggered and
really anxious and afraid, ifyou could start to do that just
a little bit, then you aremoving in the right direction
because you're starting tounderstand what it's like to
accept your current reality andto work with it instead of
against it, and try to controlthings all the times that are
beyond our control.
So if you could make this tinylittle change and practice that
(33:27):
every day you are winning, itall adds up.
There's no small moves inrecovery.
There are only valuable moves.
So thanks for listening, keepat it.
I know you can do this and Iwill see you again in two weeks.
Take care.
How do we apply the principles of mindfulness and
mindful acceptance when treatinganxiety and anxiety disorders?
Well, this week we're lookingat part two of a conversation
between three anxiety therapists.
That answers that question, solet's get to it.
Hello everybody, welcome backto the Anxious Truth.
(00:22):
This is episode 319 of thepodcast we are recording in
early June of 2025.
In case you're listening fromthe future.
Today we're going to join parttwo of a conversation that I had
with my friends, lauren Rosenand Joanna Hardis, two other
anxiety specialists practicingin LA and Cleveland respectively
, where we talked about how weapply the principles of
(00:42):
mindfulness and mindfulacceptance when treating anxiety
and anxiety disorders with realclients.
If you have not watched episode318, which is the first part of
this conversation, go back anddo that now and then come here
and pick up as we finish theconversation and look at
directions that we might takegoing forward.
So, before we get back intothis chat that I had with Lauren
and Joanna, just a quickreminder that the Anxious Truth
(01:04):
is more than just this podcastepisode or this YouTube video.
There are way more resources onmy website at
theanxioustruthcom, includingbooks and social media feeds and
workshops and all the goodies,so head on over there to
theanxioustruthcom, check themout, avail yourself of all the
resources, especially the freestuff.
There's no reason not to.
I hope you find what you getthere helpful.
(01:32):
Let's get to it.
We're going to finish talkingwith Joanna and Lauren about how
the three of us applyprinciples of mindfulness and
mindful acceptance when we aretreating real anxiety and
anxiety disorders in realtherapy clients.
I hope you find it interesting.
So here we go.
When last we left our band ofthree here, we had done a little
bit of a role play where I wasthe anxious client and you guys
were the seasoned therapist,which you certainly are, and
(01:53):
what struck me about that washow different.
I even said it in the lastepisode.
I put a little edit in and saylook how different the
approaches were.
Same principles, vastlydifferent approaches.
So it seemed like it, or was itjust the way you presented it?
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
I think that there were maybe differences in terms
of like application, right.
So I think I started in on it,sort of talking about the
concepts and like being, becausewe were talking more about the
general day-to-day life that youwere having.
It's almost like anintroductory part of therapy.
(02:27):
And then, you know, joanna wasreally in the like, the
application in the moment, whichwas so like I actually really
appreciated that we hit bothsides of that Like it sort of
had a natural progression to it.
But I, I will say a lot of youknow the way that like Joanna
approached, in that Joannaapproached in the session when
it was happening that hey, canyou actually say this thing?
(02:53):
Can you actually say I'mnoticing that, I'm having the
thought that, or I'm having thethought that blank, because
sometimes just getting that thatgranular about the whole
experience is so crucial.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
But I think some of it may be also stylistically.
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
I think.
So I got more like direct,although I'm sure that in actual
sessions that would change overtime.
Naturally it was just a littlesnippet, but I got from Joanna
more like instruction or alittle bit more instructional or
coaching, and from Lauren I gotmore imagery, which was both
very helpful.
You combine them together likepretty solid right.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Right, I hope so.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Are you?
Speaker 2 (03:34):
feeling better.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
Well, and Lauren, identifying you know which I
remember being really impactfulfor you, how you.
You know how you were feeling,that you were feeling scared.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Yeah, that's a big part.
Thank you for reminding me that, because I was thinking about
that last week too.
Like Lauren, you were reallygood at that.
Like you must be really scared,right now?
Speaker 3 (03:56):
Yeah, I think that is what she said.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
And I think that's such an important part, where we
use principles of mindfulness,we're trying to like objectively
describe the moment that we'rein and instead of trying to like
pretend we're not afraid, howabout we just start with like
I'm really afraid right now.
Okay, well, now, what?
Now?
What do?
Speaker 3 (04:13):
we do?
So, well, we're not doinganything with it, just like,
just like that's okay toacknowledge it, let it be there,
but we don't have to make,obviously, make meaning of it or
, you know, process it to death.
It can just be there, be inyour body, be in the room, and
then okay.
(04:34):
Well, how do you want torespond to it?
Like, what do you want to do?
Speaker 2 (04:37):
Yeah, and here's some other ideas to like kind of
what you were doing, as to whatyou can do with it.
I will say like to thediscrepancy that we're talking
about, though one thing that Ifound over time is like so much
of it is modeling that what youwere just describing in the room
with people is like, oh, you'regoing to, you're going to tell
me that you're anxious, and myresponse and part of this is
(04:59):
just now how I've learned torespond to anxiety more or less,
especially with other people islike, oh, yeah and right, like
that.
There's not like this bigreaction to it and I was
actually reading up on this isso nerdy.
Experiential avoidance inparents and how that informs
experiential avoidance andanxiety in kiddos and the whole
(05:22):
idea for those listening and whoare not as nerdy as I am, that
like the idea that like peopleare avoiding internal
experiences like anxiety and thethe the study showed that
experiential avoidance mediatedthe impact of being controlling.
Like parents being controllinglike that kids were more anxiety
(05:45):
anxious with controllingparents, but only if there was.
They were.
They were being controlling outof a place of like I don't want
to feel that way.
Um, which is interesting and anddoes speak to this idea of like
, if we show up in session andwe can telegraph to the person
that we're with like yeah, youcan, oh, yeah, okay, yeah,
(06:05):
you're anxious, cool Me too.
Now what?
That's a totally differentapproach than most people are
used to having, whereas, like,even really well-intentioned
anxious parents going like, ohmy gosh, you're anxious, what do
we do now?
Like, oh, this is a problem,right, Anyway?
Speaker 1 (06:22):
Well, there's that flexibility that you know, if
you look at the whole actinglike the triflex thing get
present, open up, do whatmatters.
Well, open up is the part where, like well, all right.
Well, you will usually only seeone option, which is fight this
or you know resist, or whatever.
But if you open, is thereanother possibility?
What else could that be?
And you're right, as clinicianswe might start with.
It's funny.
I said that to a friend of minethe other day.
She's practicing in Florida andshe's like I don't know, maybe
(06:44):
I should say it as this anxietydisorder thing and just stick in
my lane.
I'm like really Half the battleis just learning how to shrug
kindly when people are anxiousin your room, like that's where
you know.
So you start there like okay,that's a good place to, to be
aware, right, and watch theexperience unfold moment by
(07:08):
moment, like I'm anxious, I'mhaving this sensation, I'm
having this thought, I'm havingthis emotion.
Now what do we do?
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Right.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
Yeah, oh.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
And, and to Joanna's point, nothing right Like the.
The idea is that we do nothingwith that, but you have to be
aware that that's happening inorder to not respond to it Right
and then to just pivot towardwhat matters to you.
Um back to the present, rightLike, and really um grounding in
your sensory experience of thehere and now to the best of your
(07:38):
ability, cause that's wherelife is Right Like yeah, we're
talking about it before we hitthe record button, the that word
being present sometimes I findthat that's a challenge too,
because the word presence comeswith all kinds of imagery and
connotations and they peoplelike qualities to presence.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
Like presence means calm, presence means clear
clarity.
Right, I'm being present, yes,fully engaged.
Like all right, maybe, butreally I think, in our context
that we're working on here,presence is like a hard slam on
the brakes, like there ain't,there's nothing gentle about it.
It's the moment, it's beingable to observe and describe
(08:19):
what's happening and then stop.
That's all that's happening.
And like the idea that thismeans I'm dying, or this means
I'm having a stroke, or thismeans I'm this far from insanity
.
That is going out.
That's going beyond what'sactually happening right now.
Right, presence is justslamming on the brakes.
Yeah, stopping for a secondbefore you jump to that last
conclusion.
Speaker 3 (08:38):
Right, it takes people a lot of practice.
It's um, I have it as one of myshameless plug for my book.
One of my mental fitness skillsis practicing the difference
between identifying the facts ofthe situation and then the
meaning you make of the facts.
Yeah, and I think it's reallyhelpful in session even for
(08:59):
people to practice that, becauseit's hard to do.
Yeah, I mean, even like we weretalking before we started
recording, after we recorded,and I found myself ruminating,
you know, starting to go downthat path, about you know how
much I screwed up and all ofthat.
The facts were.
(09:19):
We recorded.
You know, I said some things.
The meaning I made was that,you know, I didn't know what I
was talking about and I saidsomething stupid and they're
going to kick me out of thisgroup and all of that that was
you know none of it happened,except in my mind.
Yeah, I'm joking, but I had.
(09:41):
It was a process of me likeliterally nine times over the
weekend, you know, bringingmyself back and doing that
separation.
Now you know, I think we're all, we all practice this stuff all
the time, so we know to do that.
But I think that's how granular, using that word that Lauren
brought up, we have to helppeople.
(10:02):
You know people get to, yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Yeah, and I think, building off of that and
combining what you were saying,drew, about how abrupt that
process is, it's not soft, it'slike the catching yourself.
You can be gentle about it, butI often say to my clients I need
you to be aggressively present,not like you know, like we're
(10:27):
not talking, like it's like the,the interrupt button, right,
that's what we're looking to do.
We're looking to interrupt themomentum of this thing that will
otherwise carry you off and,like Joanna was describing, like
okay, I'm, I'm ruminating, andI too was, like you know, second
guessing myself and no, well,did I do it?
Right?
Or?
But to be able to say, oh, look, I'm thinking, oh, okay, I'm,
(10:49):
I'm not, but that's not what I'mdoing right now.
Like, right now I'm playingwith my, my baby, right, like.
So I'm just going to bring myattention back to the smile on
her face and the sound of hergiggles.
And, yeah, the thoughts arestill going to be there and the
feelings are still going to bethere, but I don't want to miss
this moment so that I can tryand figure out whether or not I
screwed something up on apodcast, right?
Speaker 1 (11:09):
That's really good.
Aggressively present is reallygreat, like when I'm like
Joanna's pretty directive andwhen we did the role play.
When I'm working with clients,I will often you know, you're
kind of learning this skill, soyou're coaching them through it
I will often say that's not whatI asked.
All the time, yeah.
(11:30):
So ask yourself that questionLike wait, is that?
Is that a question that wasactually asked here?
I'm answering your question.
That doesn't need to be asked.
You know well what's going onright now.
Well, it feels like that's notwhat I asked.
I asked what's going on rightnow, not what it feels like.
So, yeah, there's a.
There's a little bit ofaggressive presence in that.
I like it.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
Totally, we should get shirts that say that we can
get shirts that say like crossout, be present, because I hate
those dumb shirts anyway.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
And get aggressive, aggressively present.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Aggressively present.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
I'm so in for this.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Yeah, I think, I really think it's 530 in New
York, give me till 630.
Speaker 3 (12:05):
We'll have those t-shirts.
That is so true.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
I mean we're laughing , but I think it's a really
useful.
You know we're talking abouthow do you apply principles of
mindfulness, because it's soconfusing for people.
Aggressive presence is not softfocus.
There's no outcome to it.
It's really concrete and that'swhat we're looking for.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
And I'm going to go ahead and throw out, like the
cause it's always the dialectics, it's both sides.
Once you stop yourself, it isto soften.
Yes, right, like it is to justbe, instead of like it's not,
like I'm going to be perfectlypresent 100% of the time when we
totally see people get stuck inthat Like I have to be
perfectly present and that'swe've missed the boat.
(12:46):
It's just that moment ofinterruption is much more
aggressive than I think peoplethink it's supposed to be, which
is totally reflected in session.
When I'm like I'm going to askyou to stop Right, and and not
in a rude way, but like ifsomebody is ruminating out loud
and going over and over thecontent and telling me about,
like how, the meaning and how it, what, what if this and what if
that, that I me about, like howthe meaning and how it, what,
(13:09):
what if this and what if that,I'm gonna be like look, let's
pause.
Right, like right now.
Look at what you're doing.
You're doing it right.
Like.
You're doing it out loud withme.
Pause.
Do you really want to keepdoing that?
Can you instead accept thefeeling that's generating all of
this?
Speaker 1 (13:21):
yeah.
So the pause or the aggressivestop or hitting the brakes is to
not not so that you can do morethings better.
It's so you could do lessthings better.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Yeah, yeah, well said .
Speaker 1 (13:35):
Do less Cool, love it , but first you have to be able
to pay attention.
You've got to be able to payattention, or else you don't
even know that's happening.
Like you never see the choicepoint.
If it just stays on autopilot,you never see your choice point.
Speaker 3 (13:47):
Yeah, totally.
Right Cause you have to noticewhen you're starting to get
hijacked.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
Yeah.
So then let's apply that.
Like Joanna and I, you we'vedone some of those things.
We did a couple of distresstolerance things a couple of
years ago and we always talkedabout like bottom up, like
that's a hard sell too.
I find from my clients, like Iknow, you want me to teach you
how to be present, mindful andperfect when you're panicking or
when you're having a torrent ofthoughts about hurting your dog
(14:12):
.
That you don't want to do.
But we got to start from thebottom up.
You can't just decide to onlybe present when you're triggered
.
It won't, it doesn't work.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
Yeah, no, no, and I think we can also view it.
Maybe this is part of the cellis like again don't you want
that for your life anyway,because this is the only moment
that you're ever really alive in.
So if you're, if you're notgoing to be present, you're
going to.
You're going to miss themoments, whether you're anxious
or not.
So I, like, I think that thatcan be a way to support people
(14:43):
and really prioritizing thispractice more generally, so that
they're building the skilloutside of a level 10 panic,
which, of course, practicing anyskill when your new skill is
hard and then you add it, you'redysregulated and forget it.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
I mean, I'm a big, I totally am with you, lauren.
I'm a huge believer indiscomfort's discomfort, whether
it's.
I mean, obviously, if you'reyou know you're it's your worst
anxiety, that's going to behigher.
So and I know, Drew, we triedto sell this, you know.
So start with something likestart with something that's
(15:23):
easier, like leave your cellphone in a different room for a
period of time, and so you startbecause you're going to feel
uncomfortable, because to yourbrain that's so unfamiliar.
And so if you intentionally dothat, the whole practice is how
(15:43):
are you going to you can?
How are you going to responddifferently to the discomfort
practices?
How are you going to responddifferently to the discomfort
what?
Speaker 1 (15:51):
No, you finish, I'm sorry yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
So can you soften, can you relax into that
discomfort, because then you'reshowing your brain safety, which
we know we have to do, and it'sa pretty low stakes.
I know people are going to belike, but what if my kid calls
and it's an emergency Like no,like, come on.
If my kid calls and it's anemergent like no, like, come on.
(16:14):
The possibility of that is solow but it's something that they
can.
You can practice and build onand discomfort's discomfort.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Yeah, that forces you to.
It forces you to use that, thatwatching or that awareness
skill too, because I go.
I left my phone for that.
That's a good example.
I have my phone in the otherroom and like, ah, this is
foreign to me, I don't reallylike this, and blah, blah, blah.
But like, hang on a second.
You would have to watch thefeeling of discomfort arise in
you then.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
Yeah, you practice and you see, especially if
you're committed to more thanfive seconds, how your brain
will get used to it and yourbody will get used to it and
that, yeah, you can witness.
Yeah, the discomfort, like thediscomfort's going to go up and
then, if you just stick with itlong enough, the discomfort's
going to go down.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
And then maybe it arises again, right, but it's
like it's naturally fluctuatingover time.
It's one of the beautifulthings I will say about
meditation practice inparticular is that it really
gives you a window into thathappening, to watching the whole
drama of life playing out inyour mind.
Because, there's not a lot vyingfor your attention when you're,
(17:22):
you know, often eyes closed andfocused on something relatively
boring like the sounds in yourenvironment, right Like it's, it
really becomes clear that thatprocess that you're talking
about yeah, people tend to havea difficult time with like, but
okay, fine, mindfulness is goodfor anxiety, but it doesn't work
for me because they're notunderstood.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
They don't understand the difference, or like they're
not.
Maybe it's just a hard sell andit needs more explanation.
Like, no, no, no, theconnection between sitting on
your sofa or a cushion orsomething for five minutes on a
Tuesday morning and panicking ina plane because you think
you're going to open the doorand try to jump out because
you're so anxious?
There really is a connection, Ipromise, and that's that
sitting on your sofa or sittingon the cushion teaches you to
(18:05):
watch, to pay attention to themachine that's operating.
Yeah, and it's really hardbecause it requires patience and
practice and like, I wish Icould tell you how to just feel
better on the plane, but I can't, I don't, I don't, I don't have
a way to do that.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
But how often do you find yourself saying to people
like speaking of, like justwanting to feel better on the
plane or wherever, like howoften you say people like to
people when they say like well,it's not working, like what?
What does working mean?
Speaker 1 (18:31):
yeah, that's always.
I think we all ask thatquestion.
What does it mean to work?
What does that mean?
What do you hear, joanna?
What do people say?
Speaker 3 (18:37):
um, well, that is the work.
I mean, the meditation is thework, I mean, the mindfulness is
the work.
Right?
Speaker 2 (18:46):
right, that whole attitude of non-striving, yeah,
exactly.
Speaker 3 (18:49):
And I often describe it.
It's like it's, you know, it'sthe difference between the
formal and the informal is likegoing to the gym, cause you know
, a lot of people that I treatgo to the, you know, but they go
to the gym for their physicalfitness and like going to the
gym, we go.
Why do people go to the gym,you know, especially if they're
older people, they go to the gymso they can bounce back from
(19:10):
surgery, they can bounce backfrom health, from injury, faster
, and I'm like, well, it's kindof the same thing.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:19):
I've been playing, sorry.
Go ahead Like we.
You know you have to do theformal practice to get the
technical skills down of how todo it, so that when you're in
life and it's, you know, whichis like a series of exposures,
you know how to bounce.
You know, you know how torespond and bounce back better.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Because I practiced this.
I practiced this on my sofa.
Speaker 3 (19:43):
Yeah, yeah, but it's a brutal sell.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
It really is.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
Yeah, yeah, nobody, it's a brutal sell.
It really is.
Yeah, yeah, nobody's like, oh,yay, you mean, I just get to
like tolerate this.
This is fun.
I'm just going to sit here andlike watch thoughts.
That sounds delightful.
I have been playing around withthis idea like sort of
furthering this metaphor aroundthe gym, because I totally agree
with you, but maybe somethingto flesh out because it's not
totally thought through yet.
(20:07):
I find it really fascinating.
People don't go to the gym andexpect to get to a point where
that they will breathe less hard.
Right, the goal of like workingout isn't to necessarily never
have shallow like uh, breathing.
It's to do that so that youroverall system is more capable.
(20:31):
Right, like you're trying toexercise so that your
cardiovascular system is is likebetter, and I I think that
there's a relationship betweenthat and what.
Like this idea of the cell,right, um, because it's it's
like we're not trying to get youto watch your thoughts so that
you have less thoughts or youhave less anxiety or or any of
(20:54):
those things.
It like we actually need thosethings.
Like that's a part of it.
Just like going to the gyminvolves breathing heavier, even
though ultimately, the goal isthat you have better
cardiovascular health, whichmight lead you to actually
breathe more slowly or have alower heart rate.
Whatever Does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (21:13):
It does make sense.
I often try to tell people thegym thing that I throw in is
like mindfulness, practice andmeditate.
It doesn't seem like it makesany sense, but it's like going
to the gym.
But people will often say like,oh, so what I'm building is my
calmness, like, so I'm buildingcalm muscles or regulation
muscles.
No, it's the gym for attention.
Yeah, totally, you're takingyour attention to the gym and
(21:34):
exercising your attention.
That's what you're exercising.
Yeah, then we get back to thehard sell.
Okay, hang on, I have to learnto pay attention.
So I can do what?
So you can pay attention whenyou're really triggered.
So I can do what?
So you can choose to be reallyuncomfortable on purpose.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
Why would I do?
Speaker 1 (21:49):
that Call another therapist.
I'm out, yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
Well, and if you went to the gym and all you did was
focus on how much you hated it,especially if you're doing
something really hard at the gym.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
You're not going to last very very long.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
Yeah Right, this isn't working.
I put more weight on the barand I couldn't lift it.
It's not.
This is a gym, doesn't work.
Speaker 3 (22:09):
Yeah, I mean.
So you really do have to be.
You know you really have towork on zooming out, you have to
work on softening in some ways,you have to work like all of
these things.
You have to like it does work.
But I think people still havelots of people don't really want
to be alone, like I hate thisword like alone with their
(22:29):
thoughts, whatever that means.
Yeah, I mean, I think that thatis um, I hear that so much.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
Yeah, yep, it's a scary place to be for a lot of
people, I think.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
It is, but I think also.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
It's like people don't want to be alone with
their emotions.
Is really what we're?
Speaker 3 (22:45):
talking about Exactly .
Yeah, You're so right.
I think that that is yes.
I mean, I hear that so much.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
It's probably really good, lauren, because if I'm
alone with thoughts about pizza,I'm good with that.
I love pizza.
Thoughts about somethingdifficult make difficult
emotions and those I don't wantI can't but I want to be quiet
with those.
So I hear that.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
And how do I deal with this if it comes up?
Yeah, it's so hard.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
You know what I find interesting about the gym.
Let's stay in the gym for asecond.
What I'm really interested inis if you go to the gym,
especially if you are strengthtrained and Joanna can attest to
this if you have a big assloaded barbell over your face,
you are paying attention in thatmoment.
So, like what are you notpaying attention to?
How you feel, what you'reworried about, what you're
afraid of a psychotic break?
(23:32):
These are the things you're notpaying attention to because you
have no choice but to not falloff the treadmill, not get
sucked into the stair climberand not drop a barbell on your
face.
Yeah, so all important things,I suspect that exercise, the gym
, athletics, playing pickleball,whatever.
Like you are paying attentionto something for some extended
(23:53):
period of time and not payingattention to all the things that
your fear wants you to payattention to.
I don't know.
Yeah, that's sure, but also I'mpaying attention to something
else.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
Yeah, and I was going to cause I thought you were
going to go a total differentdirection with that, like cardio
exposure, right?
Speaker 1 (24:11):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
It's going up, you're , you're, you are literally
being anxious, like having a lotof the physical symptoms of
anxiety and learning that it'sperfectly safe to have them.
That's another.
So really, what we're saying isgo to the gym.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
I guess.
But I might suggest too thatlike people like well then I
should exercise, yeah, youshould.
Maybe you should exercise insomething that requires a little
bit more attention.
Just running on a treadmill youcan do mindlessly.
So you run on the treadmill andyou time travel into your
worries while you're on thetreadmill, so you don't get that
benefit.
You get the physical benefitbut you don't get the mental
benefit.
Speaker 3 (24:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
Yeah, so yeah Cause.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
I think a lot of people exercise in a.
You know, they're distracted,they lift weights in a way that
they're not really pushingthemselves.
I mean, I think there's like Ithink you're right that we can
do it in a very intentional way,where you have to cope.
If you're doing something,especially like working on
(25:12):
mastery, with exercise, likewith weight training, all those
voices are in my head about ohmy gosh.
Well, what if I can't get thebar up?
What if, what if?
What if, what if?
But I have to part.
A lot of my work is not puttingthe like, coexisting with them.
I can't make it the loudestvoice.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
Yeah, cause, otherwise you drop the dumbbell
on your face.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
That's probably another reason why'll bring this
into it too Might as well.
While we're at it, we talkabout, oh, mindfulness and
meditation for anxiety.
Well, we're trying to clarifythat and make it practical.
And then people often hearabout yoga too.
You should do yoga.
Why do we do yoga?
Yoga is just paying attentionto where your body is.
That's all it is.
It's not anything else.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
No, and it's also one of the things that I cause I've
I've had a yoga practicehistorically is like you have to
watch discomfort it's physicaldiscomfort, like it's very
clearly like okay, and my quadis burning, like this is
happening right now and I there,I'm just sitting here with that
, which I think actually has areally great parallel to
navigating anxiety and I willsay I think it's uniquely
(26:25):
positioned mindfulness andmeditation practice to navigate
mental behaviors.
I think that's one of the great.
I'm just finishing the book onthe mental compulsions workbook
for OCD and like the whole thewhole of it is on how do we
navigate mental behaviors, andlike the reality is we don't, we
(26:46):
don't know the differenceoftentimes between thoughts and
thinking, and then we get caughtup in thinking which, as we
were kind of talking about lasttime, is like it fans the flame
of emotion, right, and so wekind of continually build this
forest fire and it's so intense,versus learning how to go, that
sort of aggressive stop of like, oh, thinking right, like done
(27:10):
next, what was I just doing?
And whether that's getting backto the barbell or dumbbell,
what's the right terminology,you guys?
Speaker 3 (27:18):
It depends what you're doing.
It depends what you're doing.
I need so much instruction, or?
Speaker 2 (27:19):
dumbbell.
What's the what's the rightterminology?
You guys?
I'm not.
It depends what you're doing.
I need so much instruction.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
We'll teach you.
You can teach us yoga.
That's fine, that's cool, yeah,okay, so anyway, that that is
another 30 minutes on, like thepractical application of of how
we we can talk about this forweeks.
This is not an easy topic,necessarily, but, like I think,
if I was going to wrap it up andput a bow on it and I'm curious
how, what your bows will looklike, guys, but come on, put a
(27:46):
bow on it, I'm going to use itLike what is your bow going to
look like?
But my bow would be like.
You got to really supersimplify this.
Do not, do not overthinkmindfulness.
It's because I think a lot ofpeople do it Like it's just
paying attention, just practice,paying attention.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
That's it.
That's if I could tell you todo anything, it would be that,
yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
What about you guys?
What would you throw in?
Speaker 2 (28:10):
I think, like I love the simplicity aspect and I
think you're right Really honingit down.
The only thing that I found tobe like sort of an additional
piece of that that's been reallyimportant in my practice
personally and I've seen it beprofessionally is with with
kindness, right, like attend tothings in a manner that is not
(28:35):
like a drill sergeant it's not,you're not beating the hell out
of yourself, right?
That's where that like part ofthe non-judgment piece is, so
that's so important.
So like paying attention gently, like with the quality of
gentleness How's this for a bow?
This is the longest bow that'sever happened, by the way but
(28:58):
paying attention with kindness,so that and I'm going to borrow
from Stephen Hayes here you canget out of your mind and into
your life Right, like that iswe're trying.
I guess, ironically,mindfulness is really about
getting you out of your mindRight, like it's getting you
grounded.
Joanna said it beautifully lastweek it's like a neck down
versus a neck up, like let's getyou engaged, so that, yeah,
(29:22):
anyway.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
Or at least recognizing when you're in your
mind.
And is this workable?
Speaker 2 (29:28):
Do I want to be here?
It's not.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
Okay, well then I can move somewhere else.
I'll pay to do something else,yeah, so, joanna, you got a bow.
Speaker 3 (29:40):
Or are we like like stressing you out by making oh
my god, I'm so stressed.
I'm coexisting with it, though.
Um, okay, my bow.
I think what I would add isjust that we have to train this
attention.
That it's that we really haveto.
This is a skill we have topractice we have to practice the
kindness and we have topractice the skill of paying
(30:02):
attention.
It's not intuitive, it's notlike we're born with it, so it's
something that we have to bepaying attention like, training,
moment by moment.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
Yeah, so all right, very good, like I did last time,
I will come back and give youlinks and where you can finduren
and joanna.
You should absolutely befollowing along with both of
these guys, because they trustthem implicitly and they know
what they're talking about.
And actually, in the practicalmindfulness class that I've been
running, we're going to do ittogether.
So very soon, it won't just beme like teaching that the three
of us will be working on thattogether, and I cannot think of
(30:34):
two people I want to do thismore with than you guys.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Triple the fun.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
Triple the fun.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
So good, I'm stoked.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
Anyway.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
All right.
Speaker 3 (30:43):
Come back as much fun as you can have.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
Without pickleball.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
Without judgment.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
As much non-judgmental fun you can have
outside of a pickleball court.
Speaker 3 (30:55):
Hey, I missed it today for you guys, happily.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
That's a terrible, and look for the like I missed
it today for you guys, happily.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
That's a terrible and look for the like what was it?
Aggressive present.
Aggressive.
Aggressively present for theaggressively present t-shirt.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
Maybe we will, I don't know.
Maybe I'll make one.
Anyway, I'll come back in asecond and wrap this up.
I'll give you guys links.
Thank you both.
Appreciate you guys.
Speaker 3 (31:13):
Thank you All right.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
Awkwardly hit the end button.
Okay Well, I had a good timehaving that chat with my friends
Joanna and Lauren.
These are two people that Itrust implicitly.
They are very well-respectedclinicians in the anxiety
disorder community.
They know what they're talkingabout and they have a strong
mindfulness component in theirpractices and also in their own
lives.
So I trust these guysimplicitly when it comes to this
sort of topic and I hope youguys got something out of this
(31:41):
conversation Again.
If you missed part one, go backand watch episode 318 of the
podcast from two weeks ago.
So that's it.
If you would like to get intouch with Lauren or Joanna or
you want to follow them, I willput their links on the screen,
but Lauren is attheobsessivemindcom and Joanna
Hardest is at joannahardestcom.
If you'd like a little bit moredetail or show notes on this
episode, including the links toLauren and Joanna's websites,
(32:04):
you can go to theanxioustruthcom, slash 319, and I'll have all
the goodies there so you canfollow along with them if you
would like to.
If you're not, you reallyshould, because they know what
you're talking about.
That's it.
I will end this episode of thepodcast, like I always do, with
asking a favor If you'rewatching on YouTube and you dig
it, then maybe like the video orleave a comment, ask a question
(32:25):
.
I'll see if I can drag Laurenand Joanna in to maybe answer a
few, of course, subscribe to thechannel, hit the notification
bell so you know when I createnew content and upload it.
If you're listening to this onSpotify or Apple Podcasts as
just audio, then if you dig thepodcast, leave a five-star
review and if you really like it, maybe write a review, a little
paragraph or two that says whyyou like the podcast, helps more
(32:46):
people find it, helps morepeople get the help that they
need, and that's why I do thisto begin with.
So we will be back in two weekswith another topic on episode
320.
I don't know what we're goingto talk about, but we will be
here and remember.
If you could take something outof this podcast episode and the
last one, it would be that ifyou can apply the principles of
(33:06):
mindfulness to observeobjectively, without judgment,
what's going on, even whenyou're highly triggered and
really anxious and afraid, ifyou could start to do that just
a little bit, then you aremoving in the right direction
because you're starting tounderstand what it's like to
accept your current reality andto work with it instead of
against it, and try to controlthings all the times that are
beyond our control.
So if you could make this tinylittle change and practice that
(33:27):
every day you are winning, itall adds up.
There's no small moves inrecovery.
There are only valuable moves.
So thanks for listening, keepat it.
I know you can do this and Iwill see you again in two weeks.
Take care.
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