June 4, 2025 • 40 mins
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What happens when three anxiety specialists get together to talk practically about how they use mindfulness in anxiety treatment? This week on The Anxious Truth, we find out.
I'm joined by Lauren Rosen, who practices in Los Angeles specializing in OCD and anxiety disorders, and Joanna Hardis from Cleveland, also an expert in treating OCD, anxiety, and anxiety disorders. Together, we break down how mindfulness in anxiety treatment actually works in real therapy sessions - not the Instagram version, but the practical, sometimes messy reality of applying these principles with actual anxious clients.
We tackle the biggest misconceptions about mindfulness (spoiler: it's not about achieving a quiet mind), discuss why it's often the "hardest sell" in therapy despite being incredibly effective, and demonstrate real techniques through live role-play. You'll hear us work through the difference between being "neck up" versus "neck down," learn about the labeling practice that creates a "speed bump" between sensation and catastrophe, and understand why non-judgmental awareness is a skill that requires genuine practice.
Lauren and Joanna take different approaches to applying mindfulness in anxiety treatment, and you'll hear both perspectives as we explore everything from the campfire analogy (anxiety doesn't have to become a wildfire) to the practical challenge of teaching clients to observe their thoughts without getting dragged along by them.
Whether you're dealing with panic attacks, social anxiety, OCD, or generalized anxiety, the principles we discuss apply across all anxiety presentations. This isn't about quick fixes or magic solutions - it's about developing psychological flexibility and learning to relate differently to your internal experiences.
Fair warning: we got so deep into this conversation that we had to split it into two parts. This is part one, and part two drops in episode 319.
If you're tired of surface-level advice about mindfulness and want to understand how it actually works in anxiety recovery, this episode delivers the real deal from three therapists who use these techniques every day with anxious clients.
Resources mentioned:
- Lauren Rosen: theobsessivemind.com
- Joanna Hardis: joannahardis.com
For Full Show Notes On This Episode: theanxioustruth.com/318
Support The Anxious Truth: If you find the podcast helpful and want to support my work, you can buy me a coffee. Other ways to support my work like buying a book or signing up for a low cost workshop can be found on my website. None of this is never required, but always appreciated!
Interested in doing therapy with me? For more information on working with me directly to overcome your anxiety, follow this link.
Disclaimer: The Anxious Truth is not therapy or a replacement for therapy. Listening to The Anxious Truth does not create a therapeutic relationship between you and the host or guests of the podcast. Information here is provided for psychoeducational purposes. As always, when you have questions about your own well-being, please consult your mental health and/or medical care providers. If you are having a mental health crisis, always reach out immediately for in-person help.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Mindfulness for anxiety?
Fine, but what does that evenmean?
What if we put three anxietyspecialists in the room and ask
them to talk practically abouthow they use the principles of
mindfulness when treatinganxious clients?
Well, this week on the AnxiousTruth, that's exactly what we
did, so let's get to it.
Hello everybody, welcome backto the Anxious Truth.
(00:25):
This is the podcast that coversall things anxiety, anxiety
disorders and anxiety recovery.
I'm Drew Linsalata, creator andhost of the podcast and the
YouTube channel.
I'm a therapist specializing inanxiety and anxiety disorders,
practicing in the state of NewYork.
I am also a former sufferer ofpanic disorder, agoraphobia, ocd
and depression for many yearsof my life, on and off, but much
better now A three-time authoron the topic, social media
(00:48):
educator, advocate and guy witha really expensive microphone
that gets together every twoweeks with friends of mine and
talks about these things.
So this week on the AnxiousTruth, we're talking about what
it looks like when anxietyspecialists therapists who
practice in the area of anxietyand anxiety disorders and OCD
use the principles ofmindfulness when working with
(01:08):
anxious clients.
I'm joined by my friends LaurenRosen Lauren practices in LA.
She specializes in treating OCD, anxiety and anxiety disorders
and Joanna Hardis.
Joanna practices in Cleveland.
She also specializes intreating OCD anxiety and anxiety
disorders and we're going totalk about how the three of us
bring the principles ofmindfulness into our practices
(01:28):
with actual anxious clients whohave the same problems that you
probably do if you're watchingthis particular YouTube video or
this podcast episode.
Oh, future me here.
Just a quick note.
Before we get started withLauren and Joanna, I want you to
notice, when we start doing therole play, how different it is
from one therapist to another.
I trust both of these peopleimplicitly.
(01:50):
They know what they're doing.
They have a tremendous trackrecord.
These are trustworthy, ethicalclinicians who are expert in
their field.
But notice how Lauren andJoanna take two different
approaches to applying theprinciples of mindfulness with
their client.
That would be me, by the way,terrible actor, but I did the
best they could.
So notice that.
That's in the second half oftoday's video and then
(02:10):
afterwards we'll talk about it alittle bit more.
All right, before we get intothat, two things.
This is a two-part episode.
We got into it pretty deeply sowe didn't want to record for an
entire hour.
We kind of abruptly cut it off.
So if you come back in twoweeks for episode 319 of the
Anxious Truth.
You'll see part two of this andbefore we actually get into the
part where I bring Lauren andJoanna on with me, just a quick
(02:30):
reminder that the Anxious Truthis more than just this episode,
just this video, just thispodcast episode.
There's a ton more stuff on mywebsite at theanxioustruthcom.
There are books and low-costcourses and workshops and all
kinds of free stuff and all thesocial media content.
So check it out, avail yourselfof all the resources.
Again, that's attheanxioustruthcom.
I hope you find whatever isover there helpful, because a
(02:52):
lot of people say that it reallyis.
So check it out.
All right, I'm going to bringLauren and Joanna on with me now
and then, when we are done withpart one, I'll come back and
wrap it up.
I'll give you all of theirlinks and everything, and then,
yeah, come back in two weeks forepisode 319, for part two of
this.
That's enough me rambling,let's get to it.
Okay, as promised, with me onscreen.
You know both of them, but Idon't think the three of us have
(03:15):
ever done this together.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
We haven't.
No, this is great.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Yeah, we have next to me is Joanna Hardest, and down
below us is Lauren Rosen, out inCali, our West Coast compatriot
.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Hey.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Now I have had the privilege of interacting with a
lot of great clinicians and youguys I always say this you guys
were great, you all accepted meas part of the club long before
I was in it and I appreciate I'mnever going to be able to pay
you guys back, but of all of youguys, you two are the ones that
I know have the strongest likemindfulness components At least
you talk about it.
Maybe other people have strongmindfulness components in their
(03:51):
practices, but you guys activelytalk about it.
So like I couldn't think of twobetter people to talk about
this with.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
And we're so fun yeah .
Speaker 2 (04:00):
And we're fun.
That's like the best complimentcoming from you, Drew.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
Yeah, so fun.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
It's surprising to me that, though, that people don't
talk about it more.
I guess you know, as you'resaying, that because it's so
instrumental in treatment frommy vantage point, and I know
from both of yours as well.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Yeah, yeah, in treatment, from my vantage point
and I know from both of yoursas well, yeah, yeah, I think you
can't.
There's a reason why thecurrent wave is mindfulness and
acceptance based.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
There's a reason why it's in there.
Yeah, absolutely.
And and looking at the, youknow the treatment modalities,
like acceptance and commitmenttherapy, which we're all big
fans of, and the mindfulnesscomponent, it's so interesting
how effective it is acrossdiagnoses.
Right, we look at ACT and it isan evidence-based treatment for
(04:56):
so many different issues and Ithink that it sort of speaks to
like okay, there's somethingreally important here that
transcends what you know, whatsomebody is is struggling with
specifically.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
Yeah, what's interesting to me and I'm
curious to get your eyes to take, but, Drew, put me on my path.
If this is out of what youwanted to talk about is for the
people that I've treated.
Um, most say it's a gamechanger for those for whom they
establish it as a habit.
I know in my life it has reallyhelped me tremendously, but yet
(05:32):
it's the hardest thing for meto sell to a client.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
And so then, like, which is why partially, which is
why in part, we're all here totalk about this?
Because I have struggled over,you know, probably two decades
of my career, how to talk toclients about, you know, mindful
awareness, in a way that they,you know, their eyes don't roll
(05:59):
back in their head and Iimmediately don't turn them off
because, because I really dobelieve and I immediately don't
turn them off.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
Because?
Because I really do believe andI'm curious how you guys do it
how?
Because I think it is such agame changer and such a great
adjunct to what, whatever we'redoing.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Yeah, I used to.
I preface a lot of my mymindfulness pitch, if you will,
with clients with, like I don'tmean to sound so therapist-y or
like I don't want to go intothat cliche thing, but we need
to talk about that and itsoftens the blow a little bit
and I think part of it isbecause of maybe people's
preconceived notions about whatthat word is like.
(06:38):
Oh, is that the thing where Ihave to wear white outfit and
put on a cushion, like and getmy lighting correct and I'll
achieve a state of inner peace?
No, no, no, no, no.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
You only achieve inner peace if you get your
lighting correct, though forsure.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
A room in your house devoted to meditation.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
A hundred percent.
If you don't own a ring light,you can't be mindful.
I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
You can't, you for sure can't have perpetual peace.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
That's definitely not the case yeah, I think that I
like joining when you say it'shardest to sell, like to me, the
sell always starts with.
First, let's talk about whatit's not, so that you don't get
really disappointed, because Ifind and I don't know what you
guys think a lot of people comeinto it and they are thinking oh
, I heard that mindfulness isreally good for anxiety.
You know, it's good for mymental health.
Okay, well, what does?
Oh, it means that I get to.
That's how you get a quiet mind, that's how you find peace,
(07:25):
that's how you calm down, likeyou know, pull it Right, needle
off the record.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
We got to stop right there and revisit, right, so
Well, and that's why I think somany people try it and think I'm
not doing it right, becausethere's a really what the goal
is, and the goal isn't to quietthe mind, it's not to stop the
mind from making noise, it's tohave a different relationship
(07:52):
with the noise in your mind, tohave an awareness of it and to
make friends with it.
That's how you develop peacewith your mind, is by making
friends with your mind, not by,like, trying to manage and
control it.
Surprisingly, yeah, right,which is not a quick fix.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
No, no, it's not a quick fix in any way.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
And yeah, I think that that's why it's also a hard
sell is even like yes, there'sthe part about the
misconceptions of whatmindfulness is and what we're
after.
But when somebody reallyunderstands that, like, oh no,
we're trying to accept thisright, like that's what
mindfulness affords us, is thisroute toward acceptance of what
(08:31):
is so that we can live life onour terms, it's like, but wait a
second, I don't want to acceptthis, like, this is what I.
This is the problem that hasdeveloped has expressly happened
because of the fact that I wantto resist this.
So it is a hard sell becauseit's totally antithetical with
what people have been trying todo unsuccessfully for a long
(08:54):
time.
So if you're looking at therapy, it's like oh, this is a way
that I'm going to finally getthe thing.
I'm going to get rid of mythoughts, I'm going to get rid
of my feelings, I'm going tolive in perpetual bliss.
Then you hear mindfulness andacceptance and you're like well,
no, that's not what I want,right?
Speaker 3 (09:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
But and I guess maybe something to consider all three
of us I think one of theimportant pieces is
understanding that, that thatpie in the sky idea, it's just
not possible.
Right, like perpetual peace, isan illusion that we keep
grasping after.
Right?
(09:32):
You know how I get?
I get esoteric real fast,apparently.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Oh, bring it.
That's what I'm used to.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
Yeah, you right.
But if we're grasping afterthat, if we, if we are sold on
it's still possible to haveperpetual bliss, then we will
keep chasing it and we won'tdive into mindfulness, not
really.
We won't be willing to noticethings nonjudgmentally and
(10:00):
accept them.
Accept them.
So I think that how do you guyssupport people in getting to
that place of you know, in therealm of act?
We talk about creativehopelessness, right, but like
really recognizing that this,this dream of constant okayness,
is not.
It's not on the table.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Yeah, it is a hard sell for people who want to feel
better.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
But I just want to feel better.
But part of the reason why youdon't feel so good is that
you're trying so hard to feelgood in a circumstance that you
can't force that, right yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Right.
For anyone who's ever tried toforce feeling good, we all know
how how.
Yeah useless it is it doesn'treally work out.
And I have some ideas, but Ilike I would love to know kind
of how you guys get there withpeople of like, getting people
into this place of like, okay,this, this is necessary, right,
like moving forward withaccepting something as necessary
.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
You know, sometimes I and I don't know if this entire
, I don't think this entirelyanswers your question directly.
But you know, sometimes Ireally go with the definition of
radical acceptance and helppeople that we don't have to
like what is going on.
You know, acceptance I you knowI go back to that definition
that we don't have to likewhat's going on in reality.
We don't have to, you don't haveto like it, you don't have to
(11:24):
agree with it, but it's thatnotion that we have to accept,
that that this is our realityright now and sort of I use that
analogy of like the campfireversus the wildfire that that,
you know, sometimes acceptanceis just accepting that like the
reality sucks.
That's our campfire and sosometimes my job, you know it's
(11:47):
like what are we doing?
That's making it worse andmaking a campfire into a
wildfire.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
And so, instead of going at you know how someone is
struggling for, like you know,always being better like what
might we be doing that is makinga hard situation that much
harder?
Speaker 1 (12:07):
And for long again.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
So that fire is burning, like yeah, it's hot out
and I don't want a campfiretonight and it's making me sweat
and if you leave the campfirealone it will burn itself out at
some point.
Another one might come uptomorrow, but like it'll burn
itself out.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
But if you keep fanning the flames, I don't like
this, but it's there.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
There's a fire in front of you right now.
I don't care how much you don'tlike it, it's there already.
So too bad.
And if I'm going to fight it,fight it, fight it.
It burns three times as long.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Right.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
Yeah, yeah, one of the things.
I think that principles ofmindfulness really enter into it
.
Because, well, the reason whyyou're not accepting is that
you're still resisting and thatresistance is automatic.
(12:58):
Or you will say at first, it'sautomatic.
At first you're going to tellme I have no choice, it's out of
my control.
I must go get ice packs andcall my safe person to run to
the emergency room or whatever Ihave to do my compulsions, it's
automatic, it's out of mycontrol.
But is it?
And that's really it Like ifyou can't learn to watch that
autopilot working, then you haveno shot at participating in the
(13:21):
process and steering in theother direction when it demands
that you go left and you justget dragged by it automatically
and unconsciously.
Now how are you ever going tosteer to the right if you can't
even know that it's on?
So all we're learning to do iswatch that machine work.
That's all.
Mindfulness is that's what Itry and teach anyway.
It's not a state.
There's no outcome.
It's not a state of peace.
It's not a state of quiet.
It's not a state ofwell-being's not a state of
(13:42):
wellbeing, it's a state ofawareness.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
Right, and it's a practice of aware, like it's a
continuous practice, becausebecause that, that resistance,
we do automatically return tothat unknowingly all of the time
, and we have to continually go.
Oh wait, I got back intoresistance, let me get back into
acceptance.
I mean, I can say this for myown recovery journey, as well as
(14:06):
those that I work with, is likeI've just.
I think yesterday I wasnoticing how, how caught up I
was and resisting anxiety andthen continue the.
The difference is that Icontinually drop it, now like
I'm able to recognize it and andsoften toward it, but I
absolutely just piggybacking onwhat you just said in terms of
(14:28):
the how of acceptance and makingit practical.
That's, I think, what we allare so passionate about, because
it can get esoteric, but it's.
It's a stepwise process in manyways, and I love a quote that
is often misattributed to ViktorFrankl, but it's actually
(14:48):
Stephen Covey.
I had to look this up for mybook recently.
I think we were talking aboutit, drew.
But between stimulus andresponse there is a space.
In that space lies our power tochoose our response.
In our response lies our growthand our freedom, and that quote
so beautifully summarizes, frommy vantage point, what
(15:09):
mindfulness affords the peoplewho practice it, which is when
we're looking for that spacebetween stimulus and response.
And if we can benon-judgmentally aware of what's
going on in our present momentexperience, then we're not going
to just react.
We have that moment to respond.
That non-judgment is thebedrock on which acceptance
(15:34):
becomes possible, because if I'mjudging something, I'm almost
immediately resisting it.
If it's like, oh, I don't likethis, make it go away is only a
breath later.
If I can noticenon-judgmentally like, oh, I'm
feeling anxious right now, thenI have the opportunity to access
that space and go like, how doI want to respond to this
(15:58):
anxiety?
Do I want to keep resisting it?
Do I want to keep thinkingabout how I'm going to resolve
it, even though I knowrationally that I can't?
Or do I want to just say like,oh, anxiety is here and get on
with my life on my terms?
Speaker 3 (16:14):
it's effortless.
People don't recognize thisbecause we're so neck up.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
Clients are.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
So we live neck up, but when, when this is what I,
you know, which I and I thinkaccepting is neck down and that
when we're really accepting, itis effortless because we're not
doing anything, we're likedropping.
That's what you know.
We all use that language ofsoftening, releasing, releasing,
(16:44):
loosening, grip.
It's, you know, it's, it's alllike a neck down and it's all
like it's effort which we're notdoing, or it's effortless yeah,
that response only comes whenyou can practice watching the
machinery.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
So, and even for me, I had the temerity to actually
go back to school and become.
That's how recovered I think Iam, but I have the nerve to do
that.
And even I like Lauren, youwere saying too I there are
times when I have to notice that, like, wait I?
Why is my heart pounding whileI'm like loading the dishwasher?
Oh, I know why Cause there'ssomething going on that I don't
like and I'm pushing against it,even though that's pointless.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
And the softening happens Right.
So then I recognize what'shappening.
So the non I think people gettripped up on nonjudgmental
judgment is kind of automatic,like you can't not judge it, but
you can see the judging, andthen like, oh, I see what I just
did there.
I pushed back instantly.
Take my hands down.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
Yes, totally.
You can practice non-judgmentand you can practice
non-judgment of judgment.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Of the judgment.
Yeah, absolutely yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
Like, oh interesting, I'm pushing back, okay, well,
do I want to keep doing that?
Right, like you can introduceit at any moment in this
progression and it interruptsthat reaction where you're just
like pushing against it.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
If you don't hit the stop button on this episode
after hearing not judging thejudging, then more power to you
guys.
This stuff is so wonky, nerdyand weird sometimes, but it's
important, like it's reallyimportant.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
But don't you find that people are relieved when
they hear that?
Because, again, that's anotherarea where it's like, oh well, I
can't, I can't refrain fromjudging.
It's like, oh no, no, no, no,you don't have to like refrain
from any sort of automaticanything.
It's what you're meeting thatwith.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
You just have to see that you're doing it, that's all
.
Just see that it's happening.
One of the coolest quotes thatI think I've ever heard.
I believe it's an Alan Wattsstory, and he's frustrated
because he's walking with hisgirlfriend or whatever she was
to him and saying like he'd hada terrible meeting.
(18:44):
His mind was all over the place, he just couldn't focus.
And the girl, the woman he waswith, said oh, but why is that a
problem?
He said well, I'm trying to getaway from my thoughts.
And she goes, not me, I lovethinking, and that was perfectly
okay.
So, like, when that story wasso great, it was actually very
evidently, very impactful forhim too.
(19:04):
Of course, nobody knows hername, so did he give her credit?
No, but the point is like oh, Ilike thinking, yeah, my mind
was really active too, but I'mall right with that.
I was just watching it beactive, that is so.
That was such a big quote for meto see, because so many people
in our context are like yeah,but how do I?
Those thoughts will go away,right, maybe, but maybe not.
(19:26):
And can you learn to watch theminstead of interacting with
them?
So what am I supposed to?
People ask me all the time,joanna.
If you get this question, well,what am I?
So?
What am I supposed to think?
Speaker 3 (19:42):
Well, what am I?
So?
What am I supposed to think?
Well, whatever you want,whatever your brain comes up
with, but I think that that'sreally hard.
So I don't know about you guys.
I mean, I think we, when wepractice that in session, it's.
I think that that's a reallyhard skill for people.
I mean, I know I use a labelingpractice with people, with
clients, which I find reallyhelpful helping them label.
You know, we'll take two, threeminutes in session to just
(20:03):
label, thinking, thought,feeling, sensation, what their
experience is.
Because I think for us, youknow, it's much easier for us to
say oh well, you know, we canbe the observer and we can watch
the machine, but I think for aclient that's an incredibly hard
skill.
(20:23):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
And so just I think, anyone starting mindfulness
really.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
Absolutely so.
Starting with two minutes of aof a labeling practice or
something, is really reallyhelpful.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
And that's the thing to do, that is, if I label it,
then at least I see that I'mmaking the next jump to judging
and telling a story or findingmeaning in that.
Otherwise we forget, we jumpright into the meaning making,
forget the part that we'rethinking, and then we declare it
out of our control, automaticand frustrating, but like no, no
.
Start by labeling first.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
Yeah, the whole point of the exercise is just to get
better at identifying thedifference between you know what
everything is, what thebehavior is, when I'm noticing a
sensation, when I'm noticingwhat you know.
It's just to get better atobserving and describing, which
I think is so hard for people.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
And we get that automatic, like I'll do it also
with physical sensations, like,tell me what's happening in your
body right now.
Well, it feels like no, no, no,don't tell me what it feels
like, tell me what you'reactually experiencing.
And it's so hard for everyhuman being to bring it right
back down to just the facts.
Speaker 3 (21:35):
Right, just just be objective to bring it right back
down to just the facts.
Right, just just be objective.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
If I can plug just the facts.
Speaker 3 (21:42):
Mental fitness skill I think number two in the book.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
I'm here for that I love it Always plugging.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
That's awesome.
I it's so funny to like becauseI actually have a whole chapter
in my book dedicated to whatthoughts, feelings and urges and
sensations are.
Because it's like, if you don'tknow the topography of your
mind, how in the world are yousupposed to navigate it
effectively?
And then you start sayingthings like I feel like and well
(22:14):
, that's actually a thought, nota feeling, if you're saying it
feels like, so understandingthat for sure, especially
because, ultimately, when we'reworking with people, it's like
I'm trying to get people tosupport people and accepting
that they're having a thought,that they're having a feeling or
a sensation, without taking thebait and engaging in active
(22:37):
thinking.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
And if you don't like nobody teaches you that nobody.
Nobody sits down as like.
Okay, here's what happens inyour mind.
I'm curious, like I don't know,would like, would it be helpful
for your listeners if we likeactually talked through like one
of like how this comes up inthe room, Like obviously, like
we work with a lot of differentanxieties, but functionally they
(23:02):
all work very, very similarly.
Um, and like why thismindfulness stuff is, like how
it helps on a practical levelyeah, let's do it.
Yeah, all right.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
I'll be the anxious person.
I'm the new guy in the room inthe club, so oh, okay, Exciting.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
Um, what do you?
What are you anxious about, sir?
Speaker 1 (23:28):
Everything.
No, I woke up this morning andyou know that thing, the minute
I opened my eyes, like I noticedmy heart is pounding and like
I'm going to have just aterrible day, and I barely slept
and this was just like on thehamster wheel all the time.
Every morning is like this.
I don't get it, and it'slasting all day long.
I don't know what to do.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
So what is it that's lasting?
When you say it's lasting allday, Like you're telling me that
you're waking up in the morning, you're immediately feeling
this, this, you're having thisexperience.
I'd love to better understand,like, what is?
What is that experience thatyou're having first thing in the
morning?
Speaker 1 (24:05):
Um well, I mean, it's just it feels like I'm
vibrating like a tuning fork,internally, like physically.
I have all those, you know.
I just don't like it.
Like it feels like there'ssomebody grasping at the base of
my throat.
I'm having a hard timebreathing.
I can feel my heartbeat.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
It's so heavy all day long and it just feels like I'm
vibrating and then like oh, mymind, you know, it feels like I
need to be near a hospital.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
I'm always worried about this and like what's going
to happen next.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
Yeah, it sounds like you're really scared about
what's going to happen.
Speaker 3 (24:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
And that all of these sort of physical sensations are
, like the you described a lotof different things that are
happening internally, like ajitteriness, a lot of movement
that you feel like heaviness inyour chest, and then you're
having the thought like, oh gosh, I have to be near, like I
gotta be near, a hospitalbecause something really bad
could happen.
I guess I'm curious too that,like, once all that starts,
(25:02):
where do you go from there?
Like, what so this, this islasting all day.
When, when you have thatthought like I really need to be
close to a hospital because I'mI'm terrified something bad's
going to happen, what, like,what do you do with that?
Do you get close?
Like do you drive to a hospital?
Speaker 1 (25:18):
Like, not proud to say, but I have.
At times I've sat in theparking lot or you certainly
wouldn't be the first, by theway.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
Yeah, a little better .
Speaker 1 (25:27):
But like I spend all day long checking my pulse and
scanning my body to see how it'sgetting worse and how I'm doing
, I'm looking for the problemand checking to see if I'm going
to have to be alone and isanybody going to leave the house
.
Who's going to save me?
It's all day long.
It's like super exhausting.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
Yeah, it's tricky too , because you're talking about,
like, checking your pulse Rightand it's that's, um, it's
probably seems very automatic toyou, but that's actually, it's
a behavior, right, like you'rekind of going into the recesses
of your mind to analyze whatyour physical sensations mean.
Um, and understandably right,cause you're scared, um, but I
(26:07):
have, I imagine that you have afair amount of experience now
that would rationally indicatethat you can have all of these
experiences without somethingbad happening.
Is that right?
Speaker 1 (26:18):
Yeah, it's been like 2000 heart attacks.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
Right.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
I get it Logically.
I understand Part of me gets it, but it doesn't matter in the
moment it seems no no, itdoesn't, it's.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
It's cause it's still really really scary Right Like
that grabs you.
And I think, understanding thatyou're having these thoughts,
right, you're having thesestrong emotional sensations,
which are really just a bunch ofphysical sensations in your
body, um, and if we can noticeall of that nonjudgmentally
right which, granted, it's hard,right, but it is a skill that
(26:50):
you can develop and if you cando that right, then you get to
make a choice as to whether ornot you continually check to see
whether or not your pulse hasvaried at all, and then trying
to determine what that meansright, which is keeping you in
your head all day and which isactually it's making your
anxiety more intense.
(27:11):
It's continually re-triggeringthat anxiety over and over again
.
Unfortunately, like when you'reengaging in that thinking, you
are going to feel anxious for aprolonged period of time You're
going to.
It's going to intensify theanxiety versus sort of noticing
when those thoughts and feelingscome up, allowing for them to
be there and then going aboutyour day.
(27:32):
But I'm curious what Joannamight have to say.
Yeah, I got the two.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
I got two therapists in the room I'm feeling it right
now.
I'm anxious right now.
What do I do?
Speaker 2 (27:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:44):
Well, I'm wondering you know what you're currently
experiencing in this moment.
Can you describe for me?
So imagine, you know I don't.
I want you to just describe forme what, what you're
experiencing in your body or inyour head.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
It's I'm sitting on my chair, but it feels like I'm
moving.
So it's a sensation of like,like vibrating is the best word
I have for it.
I guess it feels like I'm I'mshaking, but I know I'm not.
But that's how I feel right now.
Speaker 3 (28:19):
So can you tell me vibrating?
Do you feel it in your chest?
Is it in your torso?
It's like I want you to getreally granular with me about
where you're experiencing this.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (28:35):
Can you I'm sorry to interrupt you, to interrupt you,
can you preface it with?
I'm noticing that I'm feelingvibrating in my torso, in my
throat okay, like I wouldactually say I noticed that.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
Does that what you want me to do?
Speaker 3 (28:55):
yeah, I want, I want you to preface things with.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
I'm aware that um yeah, I, I noticed that I feel a
vibration sensation, like alongmy spine and into my rib cage,
like that.
Speaker 3 (29:11):
You're aware that you're sensing a vibration in
your spine and your ribs.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
Yeah, yeah, that's, yeah, that's that would make
sense.
Yes, that's what I feel rightnow.
That's what I'm feeling yeah,yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
That's that would make sense.
Yes, that's what I feel rightnow.
That's what I'm feeling.
Okay, other sensations you maybe aware of.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
Yeah, there's a tightness at the base of my
throat.
Speaker 3 (29:32):
It makes me want to take deep breaths and Okay, so
you're aware of a tightness inyour throat.
Okay, so can you.
You're aware of a tightness inyour throat.
Okay, so can you.
Can you repeat it?
Speaker 1 (29:45):
I'm aware that the base of my throat feels very
tight right now.
Speaker 3 (29:49):
I'm aware of a tightness in the base of my
throat.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
Oh okay, I'm aware of a tightness in the base of my
throat.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
Okay that you're sensing that.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
And I could feel my heart beating like pounding.
Not fast, it's just a heavybeat.
Speaker 3 (30:05):
Okay, so I am aware that.
I am aware that I am feeling.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
Yeah, I am aware that I feel my heartbeat beating
very heavily right now.
Speaker 3 (30:19):
Okay, okay.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (30:22):
What about any thoughts that you may be aware
of in your head right now?
Speaker 1 (30:30):
I'm thinking that this can't be safe.
This doesn't feel safe to me atall.
Speaker 3 (30:36):
Okay, so I am aware of the thought that this cannot
be safe right now.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
Literally.
I am aware of a thought thatsays this is not safe.
Speaker 3 (30:50):
Right now.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
Right now yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:52):
Right.
So do you notice what we did inthat, what we did in in that?
Speaker 1 (31:01):
those examples yeah, like what, what I felt like was
happening is you weren't lettingme jump to the conclusion.
I don't know if that makes anysense, but like, what I wanted
to tell you is what I, what itfelt like is going to happen and
, like you were, you put up alittle wall there we're not
going to go to the conclusion.
Just say what's happening, I'mwhat you're, what I can feel
right now.
Speaker 3 (31:20):
And that wall like.
What did the wall?
What experience did the wall do?
Speaker 1 (31:30):
Was there any experience that the wall gave
you?
Well, I mean, admittedly, likenot being allowed and I don't
mean that in a bad way but likehaving that little firewall put
up and like, no, no, don't jumpto.
The disaster makes me a littlebit more aware of the process of
drawing the conclusion.
Speaker 3 (31:43):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
Right, and it makes I guess I would have to say it
makes me feel like it's not asdangerous.
Okay, it's like it's.
Look, I could see what I wasdoing, okay.
Speaker 3 (31:53):
Does that make sense?
So what I hear is it's kind ofa speed bump.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
Yeah.
Yeah, that's really good.
It's like it slows.
Speaker 3 (32:01):
It slows you down, yeah sure between the initial
what you in your initial belief,and the catastrophe, or the.
The cat you know the yourinitial response in the cat, you
know the catastrophe yeah, yeah, that's a good.
Speaker 1 (32:15):
Yeah, I like speed bump.
Speaker 3 (32:17):
That's pretty good yeah, okay, I don't know if we
want to continue.
Speaker 2 (32:21):
Well, can I?
Can I add, cause I want like,so beautifully done, and I just
wanted to add to that Like.
So let's imagine now that youare, you've just been having all
of these experiences that youdescribed and you might
ordinarily and maybe you didn'teven in the moment want to check
in about your heart rate andwhat it was doing, right?
(32:42):
So part of the reason thatyou're doing that is because of
that fear, right, that, likethat, those, those physical
sensations are really compelling.
It's like danger, right, likeyou're hearing danger, danger,
danger in your mind.
But let like, if we take one ofthose experiences, right Like
(33:03):
the, the, the tightness at thebase of your throat that you
noticed.
Another step that we canincorporate is is imagining that
there's a space there that youcan breathe into, like you're
going to expand a balloon there,because our immediate response
to that is to grip right, like,what is that?
I don't want that there, butit's the resistance of that
(33:26):
that's going to make you gocheck your pulse, so which is
going to keep you stuck.
So are you still feeling that,right there?
Speaker 1 (33:33):
Oh, I feel every day, all day long it feels, yeah,
it's still there.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
Yeah, and can you see where that might pull you into
like trying to figure out, likeyou know, what your pulse?
Is doing and all of that yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
Just the conversation separates me from it a little
bit Like, just like that's me.
Yeah, it's still there, but Idon't feel like this urgent pull
to check on it so much justbecause we're talking about it.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
Right, right, so that awareness is helping you to for
it to like deescalate slightly,just enough that maybe you can
accept that it's there so thatyou're not going to.
So ultimately, maybe you don'tneed to to do like a formal
exercise, but when you're, whenit's still really intense, which
sometimes it is, even if you'renoticing what's happening, you
(34:19):
can.
Maybe you can try it with me.
Imagine that there's thisballoon in that area, the base
of the throat, and instead ofbeing like, oh, I just want to
relax, relax, relax.
You can kind of hear in myvoice it's a little bit
aggressive.
I'm not really prone tosupporting relaxation.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
It's the opposite of relaxation.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
Yeah, and I think that the trick is like, can we
relax into this experience?
And that's what breathing intoit, like you're going to make
space for it, does.
So I want you to just take adeep breath in for me and
imagine that you were going tomake space.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
Well, I'm going to be honest with you and push back
on that.
I spend all day long trying totake the deepest breaths I can,
so that's not really helping me.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
That's such a fair point and I'm so appreciative of
you giving me that, that uminsight into your experience.
And I imagine, if I may, Iimagine that when you're doing
that, you're you're trying to,you're trying to make something
in your experience, change Isthat right?
Speaker 1 (35:22):
Yeah, it feels like I can't get a deep enough breath,
so I'm trying all day long tofill my lungs up to my chin.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
Right, right, yeah.
You're having this thought likeoh my gosh, I'm not getting
enough breath.
I got to get more breath.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
Yeah, and it's oh go ahead.
The conversation actually helpsme do is not do that, not take
a deep breath.
I don't feel as compelled tohave to take a hugely deep
breath.
Speaker 2 (35:45):
Totally, and that's so fair.
And you know what, like, let'sjust we can just leave it at
that.
Or you know what I?
What I was saying is, if atsome point it escalates, we can
look at it.
Then I want to point out, itdoesn't the the intention is
slightly different.
What I'm saying is not tobreathe in like you're going to
(36:06):
get the deepest breath or you'regoing to make sure that you're
breathing or that you haveenough oxygen, but instead that
you're going to breathe in withthe intent of just allowing for
there to not quote not be enoughbreath.
Speaker 1 (36:15):
Yeah, it's weird, but I get it.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
Yeah, it's a weird concept, but in any case, we can
go on with this.
Oh, it's weird, but I get it.
Yeah, it's a weird concept, butin any case, we can go on with
this oh, it makes sense.
But I realize that yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
This is like anxiety theater here.
Yeah, where were the two of youin 2005 when I really really
needed you?
When we end the recording and Iwill come back and put aend on
this, so you guys know how tofind Joanna and Lauren Can we
hang out and schedule?
Maybe next week we'll record apart two, cause I think we
should continue this.
Speaker 2 (36:48):
Totally yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
So, unfortunately, I'm at a recording time, so
we're going to end this one now,but I promise, hopefully the
next episode of the podcast,we'll you'll see the three of us
again and we'll continue theconversation.
Right, you'll see the three ofus again and we'll continue the
conversation, right?
So sit tight, I'll, I'll wrapit up.
You guys stay with me and we'll.
We'll figure out.
We're going to record next.
So okay, and we are back.
That was so much fun.
It was a little bit awkward tosort of cut it off abruptly
because Lauren and Joanna didn'tknow we were going to do two
(37:12):
parts of this.
We thought we were just goingto bang out a quick 30 minutes
on mindfulness, but, as you cansee, there's a whole lot to talk
about, so we weren't reallyable to do that.
Come back again for episode 319of the Anxious Truth and I
promise you'll see part two ofthis discussion.
So I hope you found it kind ofhelpful, even if it was sort of
abruptly cut off.
As you can see, there's a wholelot that goes into
understanding and applying theway mindfulness is applied when
(37:34):
we treat anxiety disorders.
Yes, if you want to accept, ifyou want to float, if you want
to willfully tolerate if youwant to do all of those things.
Mindfulness is a big part ofthat.
So I hope you took somethingout of this.
If you want to know a littlebit more about Lauren and Joanna
, you can follow the links inthe podcast description.
Or if you're watching, ofcourse, on YouTube, you can
check out their links in thevideo description.
(37:56):
I'll also put them on screen.
Lauren is at the obsessivemindcom and Joanna is at Joanna
hardestcom.
Again, you should follow alongwith both of those people
because I trust them, they'regood people and they know what
they're talking about.
So that's it.
I will end the episode by againreminding you to come back for
319, for the second one, if youwant to know even a little bit
more about practically applyingmindfulness in your own journey.
(38:18):
I can't believe I said this,said the word journey, but I did
, and you don't have a therapistto work with.
If you go tolearntheanxioustruthcom or just
go to my website attheanxioustruthcom, it's linked
there.
I have a practical mindfulnessworkshop that I run every six
weeks for a small group ofpeople, and I have a free
downloadable practicalmindfulness exercise that you
could check out too.
So if you want to dig into thata little bit more.
(38:40):
Feel free to do that.
If you're watching on YouTube,maybe, subscribe to the channel.
Like the video, leave a comment, you know, do all the things,
because it really helps me out.
And if you're listening to thisas a podcast episode, either on
Spotify or Apple podcasts,leave a five star rating if you
really dig the podcast.
And if you want to take anextra two minutes and write a
review that tells people why youdig the podcast, well, that
helps it get found even more,and then more people get help,
(39:01):
and that's why I started doingthis to begin with.
So, yeah, that's it.
We'll be back in two weeks to dopart two of this particular
discussion on mindfulness andanxiety recovery.
If you take something that youlearned today in our discussion
and you try to apply it in somesmall but meaningful way in your
own progress, even if it seemsinsignificant, if it creates a
(39:23):
little bit of a change, there'sa little bit more acceptance,
there's a little bit lessresistance, there's a little bit
more willingness to workthrough the scary and difficult
experiences, then you arewinning.
Even though small, littledirect changes in direction
count, they add up.
They will get you where youwant to be in the end, so don't
get discouraged.
Even the small wins count.
Keep going.
I will see you back here in twoweeks.
(39:44):
Check out Disordered.
That I do with Josh Fletcherthat comes out every Friday.
That's at disorderedfm.
Take care of yourself.
Thanks for hanging out with us.
I'll see you in two weeks.
We're out you.
Mindfulness for anxiety?
Fine, but what does that evenmean?
What if we put three anxietyspecialists in the room and ask
them to talk practically abouthow they use the principles of
mindfulness when treatinganxious clients?
Well, this week on the AnxiousTruth, that's exactly what we
did, so let's get to it.
Hello everybody, welcome backto the Anxious Truth.
(00:25):
This is the podcast that coversall things anxiety, anxiety
disorders and anxiety recovery.
I'm Drew Linsalata, creator andhost of the podcast and the
YouTube channel.
I'm a therapist specializing inanxiety and anxiety disorders,
practicing in the state of NewYork.
I am also a former sufferer ofpanic disorder, agoraphobia, ocd
and depression for many yearsof my life, on and off, but much
better now A three-time authoron the topic, social media
(00:48):
educator, advocate and guy witha really expensive microphone
that gets together every twoweeks with friends of mine and
talks about these things.
So this week on the AnxiousTruth, we're talking about what
it looks like when anxietyspecialists therapists who
practice in the area of anxietyand anxiety disorders and OCD
use the principles ofmindfulness when working with
(01:08):
anxious clients.
I'm joined by my friends LaurenRosen Lauren practices in LA.
She specializes in treating OCD, anxiety and anxiety disorders
and Joanna Hardis.
Joanna practices in Cleveland.
She also specializes intreating OCD anxiety and anxiety
disorders and we're going totalk about how the three of us
bring the principles ofmindfulness into our practices
(01:28):
with actual anxious clients whohave the same problems that you
probably do if you're watchingthis particular YouTube video or
this podcast episode.
Oh, future me here.
Just a quick note.
Before we get started withLauren and Joanna, I want you to
notice, when we start doing therole play, how different it is
from one therapist to another.
I trust both of these peopleimplicitly.
(01:50):
They know what they're doing.
They have a tremendous trackrecord.
These are trustworthy, ethicalclinicians who are expert in
their field.
But notice how Lauren andJoanna take two different
approaches to applying theprinciples of mindfulness with
their client.
That would be me, by the way,terrible actor, but I did the
best they could.
So notice that.
That's in the second half oftoday's video and then
(02:10):
afterwards we'll talk about it alittle bit more.
All right, before we get intothat, two things.
This is a two-part episode.
We got into it pretty deeply sowe didn't want to record for an
entire hour.
We kind of abruptly cut it off.
So if you come back in twoweeks for episode 319 of the
Anxious Truth.
You'll see part two of this andbefore we actually get into the
part where I bring Lauren andJoanna on with me, just a quick
(02:30):
reminder that the Anxious Truthis more than just this episode,
just this video, just thispodcast episode.
There's a ton more stuff on mywebsite at theanxioustruthcom.
There are books and low-costcourses and workshops and all
kinds of free stuff and all thesocial media content.
So check it out, avail yourselfof all the resources.
Again, that's attheanxioustruthcom.
I hope you find whatever isover there helpful, because a
(02:52):
lot of people say that it reallyis.
So check it out.
All right, I'm going to bringLauren and Joanna on with me now
and then, when we are done withpart one, I'll come back and
wrap it up.
I'll give you all of theirlinks and everything, and then,
yeah, come back in two weeks forepisode 319, for part two of
this.
That's enough me rambling,let's get to it.
Okay, as promised, with me onscreen.
You know both of them, but Idon't think the three of us have
(03:15):
ever done this together.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
We haven't.
No, this is great.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Yeah, we have next to me is Joanna Hardest, and down
below us is Lauren Rosen, out inCali, our West Coast compatriot
.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Hey.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Now I have had the privilege of interacting with a
lot of great clinicians and youguys I always say this you guys
were great, you all accepted meas part of the club long before
I was in it and I appreciate I'mnever going to be able to pay
you guys back, but of all of youguys, you two are the ones that
I know have the strongest likemindfulness components At least
you talk about it.
Maybe other people have strongmindfulness components in their
(03:51):
practices, but you guys activelytalk about it.
So like I couldn't think of twobetter people to talk about
this with.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
And we're so fun yeah .
Speaker 2 (04:00):
And we're fun.
That's like the best complimentcoming from you, Drew.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
Yeah, so fun.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
It's surprising to me that, though, that people don't
talk about it more.
I guess you know, as you'resaying, that because it's so
instrumental in treatment frommy vantage point, and I know
from both of yours as well.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Yeah, yeah, in treatment, from my vantage point
and I know from both of yoursas well, yeah, yeah, I think you
can't.
There's a reason why thecurrent wave is mindfulness and
acceptance based.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
There's a reason why it's in there.
Yeah, absolutely.
And and looking at the, youknow the treatment modalities,
like acceptance and commitmenttherapy, which we're all big
fans of, and the mindfulnesscomponent, it's so interesting
how effective it is acrossdiagnoses.
Right, we look at ACT and it isan evidence-based treatment for
(04:56):
so many different issues and Ithink that it sort of speaks to
like okay, there's somethingreally important here that
transcends what you know, whatsomebody is is struggling with
specifically.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
Yeah, what's interesting to me and I'm
curious to get your eyes to take, but, Drew, put me on my path.
If this is out of what youwanted to talk about is for the
people that I've treated.
Um, most say it's a gamechanger for those for whom they
establish it as a habit.
I know in my life it has reallyhelped me tremendously, but yet
(05:32):
it's the hardest thing for meto sell to a client.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
And so then, like, which is why partially, which is
why in part, we're all here totalk about this?
Because I have struggled over,you know, probably two decades
of my career, how to talk toclients about, you know, mindful
awareness, in a way that they,you know, their eyes don't roll
(05:59):
back in their head and Iimmediately don't turn them off
because, because I really dobelieve and I immediately don't
turn them off.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
Because?
Because I really do believe andI'm curious how you guys do it
how?
Because I think it is such agame changer and such a great
adjunct to what, whatever we'redoing.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Yeah, I used to.
I preface a lot of my mymindfulness pitch, if you will,
with clients with, like I don'tmean to sound so therapist-y or
like I don't want to go intothat cliche thing, but we need
to talk about that and itsoftens the blow a little bit
and I think part of it isbecause of maybe people's
preconceived notions about whatthat word is like.
(06:38):
Oh, is that the thing where Ihave to wear white outfit and
put on a cushion, like and getmy lighting correct and I'll
achieve a state of inner peace?
No, no, no, no, no.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
You only achieve inner peace if you get your
lighting correct, though forsure.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
A room in your house devoted to meditation.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
A hundred percent.
If you don't own a ring light,you can't be mindful.
I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
You can't, you for sure can't have perpetual peace.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
That's definitely not the case yeah, I think that I
like joining when you say it'shardest to sell, like to me, the
sell always starts with.
First, let's talk about whatit's not, so that you don't get
really disappointed, because Ifind and I don't know what you
guys think a lot of people comeinto it and they are thinking oh
, I heard that mindfulness isreally good for anxiety.
You know, it's good for mymental health.
Okay, well, what does?
Oh, it means that I get to.
That's how you get a quiet mind, that's how you find peace,
(07:25):
that's how you calm down, likeyou know, pull it Right, needle
off the record.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
We got to stop right there and revisit, right, so
Well, and that's why I think somany people try it and think I'm
not doing it right, becausethere's a really what the goal
is, and the goal isn't to quietthe mind, it's not to stop the
mind from making noise, it's tohave a different relationship
(07:52):
with the noise in your mind, tohave an awareness of it and to
make friends with it.
That's how you develop peacewith your mind, is by making
friends with your mind, not by,like, trying to manage and
control it.
Surprisingly, yeah, right,which is not a quick fix.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
No, no, it's not a quick fix in any way.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
And yeah, I think that that's why it's also a hard
sell is even like yes, there'sthe part about the
misconceptions of whatmindfulness is and what we're
after.
But when somebody reallyunderstands that, like, oh no,
we're trying to accept thisright, like that's what
mindfulness affords us, is thisroute toward acceptance of what
(08:31):
is so that we can live life onour terms, it's like, but wait a
second, I don't want to acceptthis, like, this is what I.
This is the problem that hasdeveloped has expressly happened
because of the fact that I wantto resist this.
So it is a hard sell becauseit's totally antithetical with
what people have been trying todo unsuccessfully for a long
(08:54):
time.
So if you're looking at therapy, it's like oh, this is a way
that I'm going to finally getthe thing.
I'm going to get rid of mythoughts, I'm going to get rid
of my feelings, I'm going tolive in perpetual bliss.
Then you hear mindfulness andacceptance and you're like well,
no, that's not what I want,right?
Speaker 3 (09:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
But and I guess maybe something to consider all three
of us I think one of theimportant pieces is
understanding that, that thatpie in the sky idea, it's just
not possible.
Right, like perpetual peace, isan illusion that we keep
grasping after.
Right?
(09:32):
You know how I get?
I get esoteric real fast,apparently.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Oh, bring it.
That's what I'm used to.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
Yeah, you right.
But if we're grasping afterthat, if we, if we are sold on
it's still possible to haveperpetual bliss, then we will
keep chasing it and we won'tdive into mindfulness, not
really.
We won't be willing to noticethings nonjudgmentally and
(10:00):
accept them.
Accept them.
So I think that how do you guyssupport people in getting to
that place of you know, in therealm of act?
We talk about creativehopelessness, right, but like
really recognizing that this,this dream of constant okayness,
is not.
It's not on the table.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Yeah, it is a hard sell for people who want to feel
better.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
But I just want to feel better.
But part of the reason why youdon't feel so good is that
you're trying so hard to feelgood in a circumstance that you
can't force that, right yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Right.
For anyone who's ever tried toforce feeling good, we all know
how how.
Yeah useless it is it doesn'treally work out.
And I have some ideas, but Ilike I would love to know kind
of how you guys get there withpeople of like, getting people
into this place of like, okay,this, this is necessary, right,
like moving forward withaccepting something as necessary
.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
You know, sometimes I and I don't know if this entire
, I don't think this entirelyanswers your question directly.
But you know, sometimes Ireally go with the definition of
radical acceptance and helppeople that we don't have to
like what is going on.
You know, acceptance I you knowI go back to that definition
that we don't have to likewhat's going on in reality.
We don't have to, you don't haveto like it, you don't have to
(11:24):
agree with it, but it's thatnotion that we have to accept,
that that this is our realityright now and sort of I use that
analogy of like the campfireversus the wildfire that that,
you know, sometimes acceptanceis just accepting that like the
reality sucks.
That's our campfire and sosometimes my job, you know it's
(11:47):
like what are we doing?
That's making it worse andmaking a campfire into a
wildfire.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
And so, instead of going at you know how someone is
struggling for, like you know,always being better like what
might we be doing that is makinga hard situation that much
harder?
Speaker 1 (12:07):
And for long again.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
So that fire is burning, like yeah, it's hot out
and I don't want a campfiretonight and it's making me sweat
and if you leave the campfirealone it will burn itself out at
some point.
Another one might come uptomorrow, but like it'll burn
itself out.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
But if you keep fanning the flames, I don't like
this, but it's there.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
There's a fire in front of you right now.
I don't care how much you don'tlike it, it's there already.
So too bad.
And if I'm going to fight it,fight it, fight it.
It burns three times as long.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Right.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
Yeah, yeah, one of the things.
I think that principles ofmindfulness really enter into it
.
Because, well, the reason whyyou're not accepting is that
you're still resisting and thatresistance is automatic.
(12:58):
Or you will say at first, it'sautomatic.
At first you're going to tellme I have no choice, it's out of
my control.
I must go get ice packs andcall my safe person to run to
the emergency room or whatever Ihave to do my compulsions, it's
automatic, it's out of mycontrol.
But is it?
And that's really it Like ifyou can't learn to watch that
autopilot working, then you haveno shot at participating in the
(13:21):
process and steering in theother direction when it demands
that you go left and you justget dragged by it automatically
and unconsciously.
Now how are you ever going tosteer to the right if you can't
even know that it's on?
So all we're learning to do iswatch that machine work.
That's all.
Mindfulness is that's what Itry and teach anyway.
It's not a state.
There's no outcome.
It's not a state of peace.
It's not a state of quiet.
It's not a state ofwell-being's not a state of
(13:42):
wellbeing, it's a state ofawareness.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
Right, and it's a practice of aware, like it's a
continuous practice, becausebecause that, that resistance,
we do automatically return tothat unknowingly all of the time
, and we have to continually go.
Oh wait, I got back intoresistance, let me get back into
acceptance.
I mean, I can say this for myown recovery journey, as well as
(14:06):
those that I work with, is likeI've just.
I think yesterday I wasnoticing how, how caught up I
was and resisting anxiety andthen continue the.
The difference is that Icontinually drop it, now like
I'm able to recognize it and andsoften toward it, but I
absolutely just piggybacking onwhat you just said in terms of
(14:28):
the how of acceptance and makingit practical.
That's, I think, what we allare so passionate about, because
it can get esoteric, but it's.
It's a stepwise process in manyways, and I love a quote that
is often misattributed to ViktorFrankl, but it's actually
(14:48):
Stephen Covey.
I had to look this up for mybook recently.
I think we were talking aboutit, drew.
But between stimulus andresponse there is a space.
In that space lies our power tochoose our response.
In our response lies our growthand our freedom, and that quote
so beautifully summarizes, frommy vantage point, what
(15:09):
mindfulness affords the peoplewho practice it, which is when
we're looking for that spacebetween stimulus and response.
And if we can benon-judgmentally aware of what's
going on in our present momentexperience, then we're not going
to just react.
We have that moment to respond.
That non-judgment is thebedrock on which acceptance
(15:34):
becomes possible, because if I'mjudging something, I'm almost
immediately resisting it.
If it's like, oh, I don't likethis, make it go away is only a
breath later.
If I can noticenon-judgmentally like, oh, I'm
feeling anxious right now, thenI have the opportunity to access
that space and go like, how doI want to respond to this
(15:58):
anxiety?
Do I want to keep resisting it?
Do I want to keep thinkingabout how I'm going to resolve
it, even though I knowrationally that I can't?
Or do I want to just say like,oh, anxiety is here and get on
with my life on my terms?
Speaker 3 (16:14):
it's effortless.
People don't recognize thisbecause we're so neck up.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
Clients are.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
So we live neck up, but when, when this is what I,
you know, which I and I thinkaccepting is neck down and that
when we're really accepting, itis effortless because we're not
doing anything, we're likedropping.
That's what you know.
We all use that language ofsoftening, releasing, releasing,
(16:44):
loosening, grip.
It's, you know, it's, it's alllike a neck down and it's all
like it's effort which we're notdoing, or it's effortless yeah,
that response only comes whenyou can practice watching the
machinery.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
So, and even for me, I had the temerity to actually
go back to school and become.
That's how recovered I think Iam, but I have the nerve to do
that.
And even I like Lauren, youwere saying too I there are
times when I have to notice that, like, wait I?
Why is my heart pounding whileI'm like loading the dishwasher?
Oh, I know why Cause there'ssomething going on that I don't
like and I'm pushing against it,even though that's pointless.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
And the softening happens Right.
So then I recognize what'shappening.
So the non I think people gettripped up on nonjudgmental
judgment is kind of automatic,like you can't not judge it, but
you can see the judging, andthen like, oh, I see what I just
did there.
I pushed back instantly.
Take my hands down.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
Yes, totally.
You can practice non-judgmentand you can practice
non-judgment of judgment.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Of the judgment.
Yeah, absolutely yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
Like, oh interesting, I'm pushing back, okay, well,
do I want to keep doing that?
Right, like you can introduceit at any moment in this
progression and it interruptsthat reaction where you're just
like pushing against it.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
If you don't hit the stop button on this episode
after hearing not judging thejudging, then more power to you
guys.
This stuff is so wonky, nerdyand weird sometimes, but it's
important, like it's reallyimportant.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
But don't you find that people are relieved when
they hear that?
Because, again, that's anotherarea where it's like, oh well, I
can't, I can't refrain fromjudging.
It's like, oh no, no, no, no,you don't have to like refrain
from any sort of automaticanything.
It's what you're meeting thatwith.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
You just have to see that you're doing it, that's all
.
Just see that it's happening.
One of the coolest quotes thatI think I've ever heard.
I believe it's an Alan Wattsstory, and he's frustrated
because he's walking with hisgirlfriend or whatever she was
to him and saying like he'd hada terrible meeting.
(18:44):
His mind was all over the place, he just couldn't focus.
And the girl, the woman he waswith, said oh, but why is that a
problem?
He said well, I'm trying to getaway from my thoughts.
And she goes, not me, I lovethinking, and that was perfectly
okay.
So, like, when that story wasso great, it was actually very
evidently, very impactful forhim too.
(19:04):
Of course, nobody knows hername, so did he give her credit?
No, but the point is like oh, Ilike thinking, yeah, my mind
was really active too, but I'mall right with that.
I was just watching it beactive, that is so.
That was such a big quote for meto see, because so many people
in our context are like yeah,but how do I?
Those thoughts will go away,right, maybe, but maybe not.
(19:26):
And can you learn to watch theminstead of interacting with
them?
So what am I supposed to?
People ask me all the time,joanna.
If you get this question, well,what am I?
So?
What am I supposed to think?
Speaker 3 (19:42):
Well, what am I?
So?
What am I supposed to think?
Well, whatever you want,whatever your brain comes up
with, but I think that that'sreally hard.
So I don't know about you guys.
I mean, I think we, when wepractice that in session, it's.
I think that that's a reallyhard skill for people.
I mean, I know I use a labelingpractice with people, with
clients, which I find reallyhelpful helping them label.
You know, we'll take two, threeminutes in session to just
(20:03):
label, thinking, thought,feeling, sensation, what their
experience is.
Because I think for us, youknow, it's much easier for us to
say oh well, you know, we canbe the observer and we can watch
the machine, but I think for aclient that's an incredibly hard
skill.
(20:23):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
And so just I think, anyone starting mindfulness
really.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
Absolutely so.
Starting with two minutes of aof a labeling practice or
something, is really reallyhelpful.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
And that's the thing to do, that is, if I label it,
then at least I see that I'mmaking the next jump to judging
and telling a story or findingmeaning in that.
Otherwise we forget, we jumpright into the meaning making,
forget the part that we'rethinking, and then we declare it
out of our control, automaticand frustrating, but like no, no
.
Start by labeling first.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
Yeah, the whole point of the exercise is just to get
better at identifying thedifference between you know what
everything is, what thebehavior is, when I'm noticing a
sensation, when I'm noticingwhat you know.
It's just to get better atobserving and describing, which
I think is so hard for people.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
And we get that automatic, like I'll do it also
with physical sensations, like,tell me what's happening in your
body right now.
Well, it feels like no, no, no,don't tell me what it feels
like, tell me what you'reactually experiencing.
And it's so hard for everyhuman being to bring it right
back down to just the facts.
Speaker 3 (21:35):
Right, just just be objective to bring it right back
down to just the facts.
Right, just just be objective.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
If I can plug just the facts.
Speaker 3 (21:42):
Mental fitness skill I think number two in the book.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
I'm here for that I love it Always plugging.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
That's awesome.
I it's so funny to like becauseI actually have a whole chapter
in my book dedicated to whatthoughts, feelings and urges and
sensations are.
Because it's like, if you don'tknow the topography of your
mind, how in the world are yousupposed to navigate it
effectively?
And then you start sayingthings like I feel like and well
(22:14):
, that's actually a thought, nota feeling, if you're saying it
feels like, so understandingthat for sure, especially
because, ultimately, when we'reworking with people, it's like
I'm trying to get people tosupport people and accepting
that they're having a thought,that they're having a feeling or
a sensation, without taking thebait and engaging in active
(22:37):
thinking.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
And if you don't like nobody teaches you that nobody.
Nobody sits down as like.
Okay, here's what happens inyour mind.
I'm curious, like I don't know,would like, would it be helpful
for your listeners if we likeactually talked through like one
of like how this comes up inthe room, Like obviously, like
we work with a lot of differentanxieties, but functionally they
(23:02):
all work very, very similarly.
Um, and like why thismindfulness stuff is, like how
it helps on a practical levelyeah, let's do it.
Yeah, all right.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
I'll be the anxious person.
I'm the new guy in the room inthe club, so oh, okay, Exciting.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
Um, what do you?
What are you anxious about, sir?
Speaker 1 (23:28):
Everything.
No, I woke up this morning andyou know that thing, the minute
I opened my eyes, like I noticedmy heart is pounding and like
I'm going to have just aterrible day, and I barely slept
and this was just like on thehamster wheel all the time.
Every morning is like this.
I don't get it, and it'slasting all day long.
I don't know what to do.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
So what is it that's lasting?
When you say it's lasting allday, Like you're telling me that
you're waking up in the morning, you're immediately feeling
this, this, you're having thisexperience.
I'd love to better understand,like, what is?
What is that experience thatyou're having first thing in the
morning?
Speaker 1 (24:05):
Um well, I mean, it's just it feels like I'm
vibrating like a tuning fork,internally, like physically.
I have all those, you know.
I just don't like it.
Like it feels like there'ssomebody grasping at the base of
my throat.
I'm having a hard timebreathing.
I can feel my heartbeat.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
It's so heavy all day long and it just feels like I'm
vibrating and then like oh, mymind, you know, it feels like I
need to be near a hospital.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
I'm always worried about this and like what's going
to happen next.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
Yeah, it sounds like you're really scared about
what's going to happen.
Speaker 3 (24:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
And that all of these sort of physical sensations are
, like the you described a lotof different things that are
happening internally, like ajitteriness, a lot of movement
that you feel like heaviness inyour chest, and then you're
having the thought like, oh gosh, I have to be near, like I
gotta be near, a hospitalbecause something really bad
could happen.
I guess I'm curious too that,like, once all that starts,
(25:02):
where do you go from there?
Like, what so this, this islasting all day.
When, when you have thatthought like I really need to be
close to a hospital because I'mI'm terrified something bad's
going to happen, what, like,what do you do with that?
Do you get close?
Like do you drive to a hospital?
Speaker 1 (25:18):
Like, not proud to say, but I have.
At times I've sat in theparking lot or you certainly
wouldn't be the first, by theway.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
Yeah, a little better .
Speaker 1 (25:27):
But like I spend all day long checking my pulse and
scanning my body to see how it'sgetting worse and how I'm doing
, I'm looking for the problemand checking to see if I'm going
to have to be alone and isanybody going to leave the house
.
Who's going to save me?
It's all day long.
It's like super exhausting.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
Yeah, it's tricky too , because you're talking about,
like, checking your pulse Rightand it's that's, um, it's
probably seems very automatic toyou, but that's actually, it's
a behavior, right, like you'rekind of going into the recesses
of your mind to analyze whatyour physical sensations mean.
Um, and understandably right,cause you're scared, um, but I
(26:07):
have, I imagine that you have afair amount of experience now
that would rationally indicatethat you can have all of these
experiences without somethingbad happening.
Is that right?
Speaker 1 (26:18):
Yeah, it's been like 2000 heart attacks.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
Right.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
I get it Logically.
I understand Part of me gets it, but it doesn't matter in the
moment it seems no no, itdoesn't, it's.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
It's cause it's still really really scary Right Like
that grabs you.
And I think, understanding thatyou're having these thoughts,
right, you're having thesestrong emotional sensations,
which are really just a bunch ofphysical sensations in your
body, um, and if we can noticeall of that nonjudgmentally
right which, granted, it's hard,right, but it is a skill that
(26:50):
you can develop and if you cando that right, then you get to
make a choice as to whether ornot you continually check to see
whether or not your pulse hasvaried at all, and then trying
to determine what that meansright, which is keeping you in
your head all day and which isactually it's making your
anxiety more intense.
(27:11):
It's continually re-triggeringthat anxiety over and over again
.
Unfortunately, like when you'reengaging in that thinking, you
are going to feel anxious for aprolonged period of time You're
going to.
It's going to intensify theanxiety versus sort of noticing
when those thoughts and feelingscome up, allowing for them to
be there and then going aboutyour day.
(27:32):
But I'm curious what Joannamight have to say.
Yeah, I got the two.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
I got two therapists in the room I'm feeling it right
now.
I'm anxious right now.
What do I do?
Speaker 2 (27:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:44):
Well, I'm wondering you know what you're currently
experiencing in this moment.
Can you describe for me?
So imagine, you know I don't.
I want you to just describe forme what, what you're
experiencing in your body or inyour head.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
It's I'm sitting on my chair, but it feels like I'm
moving.
So it's a sensation of like,like vibrating is the best word
I have for it.
I guess it feels like I'm I'mshaking, but I know I'm not.
But that's how I feel right now.
Speaker 3 (28:19):
So can you tell me vibrating?
Do you feel it in your chest?
Is it in your torso?
It's like I want you to getreally granular with me about
where you're experiencing this.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (28:35):
Can you I'm sorry to interrupt you, to interrupt you,
can you preface it with?
I'm noticing that I'm feelingvibrating in my torso, in my
throat okay, like I wouldactually say I noticed that.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
Does that what you want me to do?
Speaker 3 (28:55):
yeah, I want, I want you to preface things with.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
I'm aware that um yeah, I, I noticed that I feel a
vibration sensation, like alongmy spine and into my rib cage,
like that.
Speaker 3 (29:11):
You're aware that you're sensing a vibration in
your spine and your ribs.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
Yeah, yeah, that's, yeah, that's that would make
sense.
Yes, that's what I feel rightnow.
That's what I'm feeling yeah,yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
That's that would make sense.
Yes, that's what I feel rightnow.
That's what I'm feeling.
Okay, other sensations you maybe aware of.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
Yeah, there's a tightness at the base of my
throat.
Speaker 3 (29:32):
It makes me want to take deep breaths and Okay, so
you're aware of a tightness inyour throat.
Okay, so can you.
You're aware of a tightness inyour throat.
Okay, so can you.
Can you repeat it?
Speaker 1 (29:45):
I'm aware that the base of my throat feels very
tight right now.
Speaker 3 (29:49):
I'm aware of a tightness in the base of my
throat.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
Oh okay, I'm aware of a tightness in the base of my
throat.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
Okay that you're sensing that.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
And I could feel my heart beating like pounding.
Not fast, it's just a heavybeat.
Speaker 3 (30:05):
Okay, so I am aware that.
I am aware that I am feeling.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
Yeah, I am aware that I feel my heartbeat beating
very heavily right now.
Speaker 3 (30:19):
Okay, okay.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (30:22):
What about any thoughts that you may be aware
of in your head right now?
Speaker 1 (30:30):
I'm thinking that this can't be safe.
This doesn't feel safe to me atall.
Speaker 3 (30:36):
Okay, so I am aware of the thought that this cannot
be safe right now.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
Literally.
I am aware of a thought thatsays this is not safe.
Speaker 3 (30:50):
Right now.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
Right now yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:52):
Right.
So do you notice what we did inthat, what we did in in that?
Speaker 1 (31:01):
those examples yeah, like what, what I felt like was
happening is you weren't lettingme jump to the conclusion.
I don't know if that makes anysense, but like, what I wanted
to tell you is what I, what itfelt like is going to happen and
, like you were, you put up alittle wall there we're not
going to go to the conclusion.
Just say what's happening, I'mwhat you're, what I can feel
right now.
Speaker 3 (31:20):
And that wall like.
What did the wall?
What experience did the wall do?
Speaker 1 (31:30):
Was there any experience that the wall gave
you?
Well, I mean, admittedly, likenot being allowed and I don't
mean that in a bad way but likehaving that little firewall put
up and like, no, no, don't jumpto.
The disaster makes me a littlebit more aware of the process of
drawing the conclusion.
Speaker 3 (31:43):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
Right, and it makes I guess I would have to say it
makes me feel like it's not asdangerous.
Okay, it's like it's.
Look, I could see what I wasdoing, okay.
Speaker 3 (31:53):
Does that make sense?
So what I hear is it's kind ofa speed bump.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
Yeah.
Yeah, that's really good.
It's like it slows.
Speaker 3 (32:01):
It slows you down, yeah sure between the initial
what you in your initial belief,and the catastrophe, or the.
The cat you know the yourinitial response in the cat, you
know the catastrophe yeah, yeah, that's a good.
Speaker 1 (32:15):
Yeah, I like speed bump.
Speaker 3 (32:17):
That's pretty good yeah, okay, I don't know if we
want to continue.
Speaker 2 (32:21):
Well, can I?
Can I add, cause I want like,so beautifully done, and I just
wanted to add to that Like.
So let's imagine now that youare, you've just been having all
of these experiences that youdescribed and you might
ordinarily and maybe you didn'teven in the moment want to check
in about your heart rate andwhat it was doing, right?
(32:42):
So part of the reason thatyou're doing that is because of
that fear, right, that, likethat, those, those physical
sensations are really compelling.
It's like danger, right, likeyou're hearing danger, danger,
danger in your mind.
But let like, if we take one ofthose experiences, right Like
(33:03):
the, the, the tightness at thebase of your throat that you
noticed.
Another step that we canincorporate is is imagining that
there's a space there that youcan breathe into, like you're
going to expand a balloon there,because our immediate response
to that is to grip right, like,what is that?
I don't want that there, butit's the resistance of that
(33:26):
that's going to make you gocheck your pulse, so which is
going to keep you stuck.
So are you still feeling that,right there?
Speaker 1 (33:33):
Oh, I feel every day, all day long it feels, yeah,
it's still there.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
Yeah, and can you see where that might pull you into
like trying to figure out, likeyou know, what your pulse?
Is doing and all of that yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
Just the conversation separates me from it a little
bit Like, just like that's me.
Yeah, it's still there, but Idon't feel like this urgent pull
to check on it so much justbecause we're talking about it.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
Right, right, so that awareness is helping you to for
it to like deescalate slightly,just enough that maybe you can
accept that it's there so thatyou're not going to.
So ultimately, maybe you don'tneed to to do like a formal
exercise, but when you're, whenit's still really intense, which
sometimes it is, even if you'renoticing what's happening, you
(34:19):
can.
Maybe you can try it with me.
Imagine that there's thisballoon in that area, the base
of the throat, and instead ofbeing like, oh, I just want to
relax, relax, relax.
You can kind of hear in myvoice it's a little bit
aggressive.
I'm not really prone tosupporting relaxation.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
It's the opposite of relaxation.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
Yeah, and I think that the trick is like, can we
relax into this experience?
And that's what breathing intoit, like you're going to make
space for it, does.
So I want you to just take adeep breath in for me and
imagine that you were going tomake space.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
Well, I'm going to be honest with you and push back
on that.
I spend all day long trying totake the deepest breaths I can,
so that's not really helping me.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
That's such a fair point and I'm so appreciative of
you giving me that, that uminsight into your experience.
And I imagine, if I may, Iimagine that when you're doing
that, you're you're trying to,you're trying to make something
in your experience, change Isthat right?
Speaker 1 (35:22):
Yeah, it feels like I can't get a deep enough breath,
so I'm trying all day long tofill my lungs up to my chin.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
Right, right, yeah.
You're having this thought likeoh my gosh, I'm not getting
enough breath.
I got to get more breath.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
Yeah, and it's oh go ahead.
The conversation actually helpsme do is not do that, not take
a deep breath.
I don't feel as compelled tohave to take a hugely deep
breath.
Speaker 2 (35:45):
Totally, and that's so fair.
And you know what, like, let'sjust we can just leave it at
that.
Or you know what I?
What I was saying is, if atsome point it escalates, we can
look at it.
Then I want to point out, itdoesn't the the intention is
slightly different.
What I'm saying is not tobreathe in like you're going to
(36:06):
get the deepest breath or you'regoing to make sure that you're
breathing or that you haveenough oxygen, but instead that
you're going to breathe in withthe intent of just allowing for
there to not quote not be enoughbreath.
Speaker 1 (36:15):
Yeah, it's weird, but I get it.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
Yeah, it's a weird concept, but in any case, we can
go on with this.
Oh, it's weird, but I get it.
Yeah, it's a weird concept, butin any case, we can go on with
this oh, it makes sense.
But I realize that yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
This is like anxiety theater here.
Yeah, where were the two of youin 2005 when I really really
needed you?
When we end the recording and Iwill come back and put aend on
this, so you guys know how tofind Joanna and Lauren Can we
hang out and schedule?
Maybe next week we'll record apart two, cause I think we
should continue this.
Speaker 2 (36:48):
Totally yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
So, unfortunately, I'm at a recording time, so
we're going to end this one now,but I promise, hopefully the
next episode of the podcast,we'll you'll see the three of us
again and we'll continue theconversation.
Right, you'll see the three ofus again and we'll continue the
conversation, right?
So sit tight, I'll, I'll wrapit up.
You guys stay with me and we'll.
We'll figure out.
We're going to record next.
So okay, and we are back.
That was so much fun.
It was a little bit awkward tosort of cut it off abruptly
because Lauren and Joanna didn'tknow we were going to do two
(37:12):
parts of this.
We thought we were just goingto bang out a quick 30 minutes
on mindfulness, but, as you cansee, there's a whole lot to talk
about, so we weren't reallyable to do that.
Come back again for episode 319of the Anxious Truth and I
promise you'll see part two ofthis discussion.
So I hope you found it kind ofhelpful, even if it was sort of
abruptly cut off.
As you can see, there's a wholelot that goes into
understanding and applying theway mindfulness is applied when
(37:34):
we treat anxiety disorders.
Yes, if you want to accept, ifyou want to float, if you want
to willfully tolerate if youwant to do all of those things.
Mindfulness is a big part ofthat.
So I hope you took somethingout of this.
If you want to know a littlebit more about Lauren and Joanna
, you can follow the links inthe podcast description.
Or if you're watching, ofcourse, on YouTube, you can
check out their links in thevideo description.
(37:56):
I'll also put them on screen.
Lauren is at the obsessivemindcom and Joanna is at Joanna
hardestcom.
Again, you should follow alongwith both of those people
because I trust them, they'regood people and they know what
they're talking about.
So that's it.
I will end the episode by againreminding you to come back for
319, for the second one, if youwant to know even a little bit
more about practically applyingmindfulness in your own journey.
(38:18):
I can't believe I said this,said the word journey, but I did
, and you don't have a therapistto work with.
If you go tolearntheanxioustruthcom or just
go to my website attheanxioustruthcom, it's linked
there.
I have a practical mindfulnessworkshop that I run every six
weeks for a small group ofpeople, and I have a free
downloadable practicalmindfulness exercise that you
could check out too.
So if you want to dig into thata little bit more.
(38:40):
Feel free to do that.
If you're watching on YouTube,maybe, subscribe to the channel.
Like the video, leave a comment, you know, do all the things,
because it really helps me out.
And if you're listening to thisas a podcast episode, either on
Spotify or Apple podcasts,leave a five star rating if you
really dig the podcast.
And if you want to take anextra two minutes and write a
review that tells people why youdig the podcast, well, that
helps it get found even more,and then more people get help,
(39:01):
and that's why I started doingthis to begin with.
So, yeah, that's it.
We'll be back in two weeks to dopart two of this particular
discussion on mindfulness andanxiety recovery.
If you take something that youlearned today in our discussion
and you try to apply it in somesmall but meaningful way in your
own progress, even if it seemsinsignificant, if it creates a
(39:23):
little bit of a change, there'sa little bit more acceptance,
there's a little bit lessresistance, there's a little bit
more willingness to workthrough the scary and difficult
experiences, then you arewinning.
Even though small, littledirect changes in direction
count, they add up.
They will get you where youwant to be in the end, so don't
get discouraged.
Even the small wins count.
Keep going.
I will see you back here in twoweeks.
(39:44):
Check out Disordered.
That I do with Josh Fletcherthat comes out every Friday.
That's at disorderedfm.
Take care of yourself.
Thanks for hanging out with us.
I'll see you in two weeks.
We're out you.
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