May 21, 2025 • 23 mins
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If you've reached the point of declaring "I've tried everything and nothing works for my anxiety," this episode is specifically for you. Many anxiety sufferers fall into this trap and conclude they're uniquely broken or have a special form of anxiety that's resistant to recovery.
As both a therapist and someone who personally recovered from panic disorder and agoraphobia, I'll explain why this frustrating experience happens. You'll discover why commonly-tried control and avoidance strategies can provide temporary relief but ultimately strengthen anxiety's grip on your life.
I'll break down the fundamental flaw in these approaches using a simple sailing metaphor: if you're trying to reach London from New York by sailing west, the problem isn't your sailing technique—it's your direction.
This episode offers a shift in perspective about what actually gives you a fighting chance at lasting recovery. Instead of searching for more control techniques, learn why changing your entire approach might be the key you've been missing.
No quick fixes or miracle cures here—just straight talk about why certain approaches fail and what direction might actually lead to meaningful change. Small steps in a new direction still count as progress, and recognizing what doesn't work is valuable learning on the path to reclaiming your life from anxiety.
Links and resources mentioned in this episode:
- Full show notes: https://theanxioustruth.com/317
- The Disordered Podcast: https://disordered.fm
Support The Anxious Truth: If you find the podcast helpful and want to support my work, you can buy me a coffee. Other ways to support my work like buying a book or signing up for a low cost workshop can be found on my website. None of this is never required, but always appreciated!
Interested in doing therapy with me? For more information on working with me directly to overcome your anxiety, follow this link.
Disclaimer: The Anxious Truth is not therapy or a replacement for therapy. Listening to The Anxious Truth does not create a therapeutic relationship between you and the host or guests of the podcast. Information here is provided for psychoeducational purposes. As always, when you have questions about your own well-being, please consult your mental health and/or medical care providers. If you are having a mental health crisis, always reach out immediately for in-person help.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Oh my God, nothing works for my anxiety and I don't
know what to do.
If you are an anxious personand you are at the point where
you are saying that nothingworks for your anxiety, then
welcome to episode 317 of theAnxious Truth.
This one is for you.
Hello everybody, welcome backto the Anxious Truth.
(00:21):
This is episode 317 of thepodcast we are recording in May
of 2025.
For those of you who arewatching or listening from the
future, I am Drew Linsalata.
I'm creator and host of theAnxious Truth.
I'm a therapist practicing inthe area of anxiety and anxiety
disorders in the state of NewYork.
I'm also a former sufferer ofthe very problems that I speak
and write about.
I'm a three-time author on thetopic of anxiety and anxiety
(00:42):
disorders.
Social media dude,psychoeducator advocate.
You get the deal.
This week on the Anxious Truth,we're going to talk about what
happens when an anxious personstarts to declare that they've
tried everything and nothingworks for their anxiety.
It can lead you into a reallydark place where you feel like
you're worse than everybody else, or your anxiety is somehow
special, or you have a specialimmune form of anxiety that
(01:03):
doesn't respond to anything andyou're kind of stuck.
So we're going to talk aboutthat today because it's a really
common experience,unfortunately, in the community
of people who listen to thispodcast and read my books.
Before we get into this topic,I just want to remind you that
the Anxious Truth is more thanjust this video or this podcast
episode.
There's a ton more resources onmy website at
theanxioustruthcom, includingall the previous podcast
(01:25):
episodes, the other podcast I dowith my buddy, josh Fletcher,
that one's called Disordered.
There's a bunch of workshopsand courses, all of which are
very low cost.
There's a bunch of other freestuff, all the social media
stuff, the books that I'vewritten.
Head on over totheanxioustruthcom and check it
all out.
There's a lot of good stuff,according to the people who use
it, so avail yourself of all theresources.
So I'm sitting outside today.
It's a Sunday afternoon andI've decided to record on a
(01:47):
Sunday afternoon.
This is a little bit old school.
I used to record podcasts thisway.
It's lower production value,but that's okay.
I'm enjoying the weather andhopefully it's going to work for
you guys, so enjoy the treesand the Japanese maple behind me
.
That's the big shock of redleaves.
So let's talk about what happenswhen an anxious person is
struggling for any period oftime with chronic or disordered
states of anxiety and they'reworking overtime for a very long
(02:10):
time to try and get a grip onthat.
They may find that nothing isreally changing.
They're still being triggered.
Quite often they may be havingrecurring panic attacks.
They can't stop theoverthinking, the worrying, the
ruminating, the gad.
It's just kicking into highgear or nothing is working for
their OCD.
And they may start to declareand this may resonate with you
if you're watching or listeningtoday they start to declare
(02:31):
nothing works.
I've tried everything andnothing works for my anxiety.
And when that happens, ananxious person could start to
draw really difficultconclusions like I am specially
broken or my anxiety is somehowdifferent than everybody else's,
or I have a worse form ofanxiety, or there's something
structurally wrong with me ordeficient, and nothing that I
(02:53):
hear like on social media or onpodcasts works for my anxiety.
So there must be somethingwrong with me.
And that can lead you to startto feel sort of despair or
hopeless or feel like there'sreally nowhere for you to go.
And some people start to reachthe conclusion that, like I'm
done, I'm just going to stoptrying because clearly nothing
works.
And that's a tough place to be.
We never want to get therebecause that starts to lead to
(03:15):
depression and ugliness, like Istopped trying and I just
disengage and I just decide toaccept that I'm going to have to
struggle with anxiety and beafraid of my own body, thoughts
and emotions for the rest of mylife, and that's not fair.
We don't want you to wind upthere because you don't have to
wind up there.
So what does it mean whenanxious people say nothing works
for my anxiety?
Well, I can tell you that mostcommonly and this I can take
(03:39):
after you know, however, manyyears 20 to 15 years of doing
this podcast and building a verylarge audience and interacting
with tens of thousands ofanxious people I can tell you
that often the person who saysnothing works for my anxiety is
saying that they've been tryingeverything that they could find,
and I understand why.
Why wouldn't you try this?
You're trying everything youcan find under the sun to manage
(04:01):
your anxiety, to manage yoursymptoms, to control your
nervous system, to regulateyourself, to forcibly heal
something that you think isbroken inside of you.
Generally speaking, the primaryapproach to trying to deal with
chronic and disordered forms ofanxiety tends to be
control-based strategies and inthis context I'm going to say
(04:21):
that's control slash avoidance.
I'm going to put them in thesame category.
Either I'm going to start toavoid anything that might
trigger these difficultsensations or scary thoughts or
really big emotions that I fearso much and that put me into a
spiral, or I'm going to avoidand also trying to figure out
ways to control those things.
I want to control my thoughts,I want to control my emotions, I
(04:43):
want to control my symptoms.
Isn't there something I can doto instantly like tap on my
cheek and turn off my nervoussystem and calm it down right
away?
And, generally speaking, peoplewill default to avoidance,
which perfectly makes sense.
I mean, nobody wants to repeatdifficult experiences.
So we go first to avoidance andthen we tend to go toward
control, and this is fueled bythe current environment that
(05:06):
we're in right now, whereanybody that can fog up a mirror
can declare themselves awellness or a mental health
expert.
Anybody who's ever had a panicattack can decide that they're
an anxiety influencer or healingcoach and start to tell you
ways to control your anxiety ormanage your anxiety, and it can
lead you down a path where youfigure like well, okay.
Well, the conventional wisdomhere is I have to learn to avoid
(05:27):
my triggers, or I have to learnhow to manage my symptoms, or I
have to change my gut health,or I have to get the optimal
amount of sleep, or I have tomake sure that I don't drink
caffeine, or like there's a lotof control stuff that goes with
that, and along with that mightbe things like you have to start
to recognize those triggers soyou can avoid them.
And you know, yeah sure, if I'mafraid to fly, I might not want
(05:48):
to fly because that triggers myfear of flying.
But this is more pervasivethroughout somebody's entire
lifestyle.
They begin to avoid anythingthat might possibly trigger
difficult sensations or scarythoughts or really powerful
emotions.
So people's lives become moreand more rigid and restricted
and things get smaller andsmaller, and that by itself can
lead you into kind of a darkplace.
(06:08):
So if you're looking to try tofeel better which everybody does
and there's nothing wrong withthat I would certainly expect
you to try to feel better,naturally, or want to feel
better, but it can lead you downthe road where you're either
avoiding the feelings thatyou've learned to fear or you're
trying desperately to findtechniques that control the way
your body and mind work, andlately I've been using the
(06:31):
metaphor of knobs and levers,right.
So what we do is we fall intothe trap of trying to figure out
special ways to like, turn theknobs and pull the levers on our
nervous systems or our bodies,or endocrine systems, or our
thoughts or or our emotions, tocontrol them, so that we can
force ourselves into this verynarrow range of state that we
find acceptable, which isgenerally neutral or calm or
(06:54):
maybe happy.
But even paradoxically, manyanxious people have a little bit
of a problem if they get toohappy or too excited, because
that can morph into fear orpanic.
So when we try so hard tocontrol these things, or we
avoid, avoid, avoid things don'treally go the way we want them
to.
Those strategies tend to leadto temporary relief in the
moment, like sure, if I, youknow, I'm having a panic attack
(07:17):
and I run out of the room andget in my car and race home to
what I think is my safe place,suddenly I feel better.
Many people in that situationwill say the minute I start to
head out of, you know, the partythat I'm in, or I get in my car
and start to head toward home.
The minute that happens, Iimmediately start to calm down.
So sure you start to feelbetter.
So I understand why you mightdefault to that sort of thing.
But then there's a price to payon the other side, which is I
(07:38):
left another social event, or Iran out on dinner dinner, or I
left the shopping cart, you know, full of groceries at the
supermarket again and like thishas become a problem for me.
So when we avoid, we tend toescape the feelings that we
don't want to feel, thesensations, the thoughts, the
emotions that we don't wantbecause we fear them so much.
But there's a price to pay.
So we get temporary discomfort,but we get longer term pain in
(08:02):
the form of the consequencesthat come from that avoidance.
And when we try control-basedstrategies, we find that we get
stuck in loops all the time.
They don't work consistentlyand they certainly don't work on
the long term.
So while you may be running forice packs or immediately
calling a safe person, or doingall the things that you could
think of to intentionallydistract yourself from how you
feel, so you can get away fromthose scary thoughts and those
(08:24):
scary sensations, you might infact get some sort of temporary
relief, but once what winds uphappening is, that never lasts.
You get triggered again in anhour or in the next day or two
days from now and you have torepeat that loop again and again
and again.
So the person who is defaultingto primarily control strategies
is trying desperately tomanually control feeling and
thinking and evaluating systemsinside them that were never
(08:47):
designed to be manuallycontrolled.
If we could find ways to hackthe fight or flight response,
we'd be in trouble because weshould not be able to turn that
off.
That's not correct.
We need these processes, weneed those systems in our minds.
We need that threat detectionsystem.
We need the alerting system,like we.
There should not be a way toturn it off just because you
(09:08):
don't like what it's doing atthe moment.
So we wind up fighting againstour natural state and when we
really like just posted aboutthis on my Instagram too, a
couple of days ago.
If we really really look at thecurrent state of things like
neuroscience or cognitivescience right now, you start to
see that, yeah, we're learning ahuge amount, but so much of
what we're learning is focuseddirectly on like wow, these
systems are really interrelatedand they're really complicated
(09:30):
and they've been evolved to workat peak efficiency without us
even knowing about it, or havingto intervene Makes sense.
These are complicated systems,primarily outside of our control
, that are designed to keep ussafe and alive and we don't get
a say in how they work, becausethat would be a terrible design.
Yet, somehow or other, we evenfind ourselves in an environment
today where people take a lotof that science and a lot of
(09:53):
that research and somehow twistit into saying, well, because we
see sort of how theseinterrelated systems work, that
there must be some way now forus to hack into that system and
manually control it Again, badidea.
So when people reach theconclusion that you know I tried
everything and nothing worksfor me, generally speaking, what
they're saying is I've beentrying to control my anxiety, or
(10:14):
I've been just exclusivelyavoiding it for a very long time
, and sure enough, I don't likethe life that I get from that.
So where do we go from here?
I would also have to throw inanother little caveat, which is
some people will say well, Iknow what you're saying, drew.
I listen to your podcast, or Ilisten to Disordered, or I
follow you on social media.
(10:34):
I read your books, I get it.
It's acceptance, right, it'swillful tolerance, it's
surrender, it's mindfulness,it's all of those things Correct
, and I've been doing that andthat doesn't work either.
And whenever somebody tells meacceptance doesn't work for me,
mindfulness doesn't work for me,then that the question itself
or the statement itselfindicates well, this is somebody
who is trying to use thesethings acceptance as a feeling
(10:56):
better technique.
If I accept my anxiety, thenthis is a way for me to turn
knobs and pull levers.
That calms me down and makes mefeel better, makes the anxiety
go away.
That's not the way this works.
So we don't use acceptance,willful tolerance, surrender,
meditation and mindfulness.
We don't use those things asways to operate our anxiety or
operate directly on thoughts oremotions or feelings or bodily
(11:19):
sensations.
We use those things to learnhow to move through those
uncomfortable states in a moreproductive way.
Because, in the end, theproblem here is that those of us
who struggle with thisparticular issue chronic and
distorted states of anxiety willlearn to be afraid of our own
bodies, our minds and ouremotions.
So what we're using when, whatwe're doing when we use
(11:40):
acceptance and mindfulness-basedstrategies, is we are learning
through experience that we don'thave to fear our bodies and
minds, our emotions, anymore.
Those are uncomfortable anddifficult things to deal with
sometimes, but not dangerousthings, so we don't have to be
fearful of them anymore.
So, all that being said, wheredo we go from here?
If you find that you are in aplace where you keep saying I've
(12:03):
tried everything and nothingworks, then you have to ask
yourself what have I been trying?
Have I been trying primarilyavoidance and control-based
strategies?
If you have, then that's notyour fault.
I mean, I understand why youwould try things that are
designed to make you feel betterand sometimes do right away in
the moment.
I get that.
(12:23):
I'm not taking that away fromyou.
You're allowed to want that.
But if that's a strategy thatyou have been primarily trying
for however long weeks, months,years and you keep feeling like
that doesn't work, well, takeheart in the fact that it was
never going to work, and what Imean by work in that context is
it was never going to lead tolong like larger, broader,
(12:44):
lasting, durable change.
Those things were never goingto lead to that.
Ask anybody who feels that theygot better using primarily
avoidance and control strategiesand then it came back.
What that looks like Nine timesout of 10,.
What that means is I learnedstrategies to control my anxiety
(13:05):
, but then at some point lifeoverwhelmed those strategies and
I did feel the things that Ifear so much, and then I didn't
know what to do because I stillfear them.
I couldn't control them.
My control fell apart.
It was overwhelmed by thecircumstance or for whatever
reason.
Maybe I was sick, or maybe Iwas in a difficult time in my
life, or maybe I was under a lotof stress and my control
strategy failed me.
(13:26):
And then all of a sudden I was.
I was hit with those feelingsagain that I fear so much, and
then I say that I'm in a setbackand it came back and all bets
are off and I don't know whythis keeps happening to me.
So nothing works, for myanxiety often appears as
cyclical recovery.
I feel better and then I don't.
I'm doing better and then Idon't, and I go to for an
(13:46):
agoraphobic.
It's often like, oh, I was ableto push out and I expanded my
comfort zone and I was livingmost of my life, and then, blam,
it all came crashing down againin the span of two weeks after
I had two big panic attacks andit was all over.
So where do we go from here?
The first thing I would urgeyou to do is recognize that you
may have been relying onstrategies that were never going
to work for you, but that's notyour fault.
(14:07):
We're never going to work foryou, but that's not your fault.
It's okay to try thosestrategies and everybody
defaults to them at first.
Again, that's okay, sort of thenatural progression of this.
But remember that just becauseyou want something to work
doesn't mean it's going to work.
So I think the first bigtakeaway I would ask you to sort
of consider in this podcastepisode, in this video, would be
(14:27):
knowing the difference betweenwhat you want to work and what
actually has a fighting chanceof really working.
We want everything to work.
We want to feel better rightaway, and that's okay.
Sometimes we want it reallyreally bad.
Sometimes we hold beliefs aboutwellness or the way our bodies
work.
We just like concepts likeregulating our nervous systems
and that sort of stuff, and sowe like them so much that we
(14:48):
want strategies that revolvearound those concepts to work so
bad.
So we keep trying them againand again and again Again.
All human beings have emotionalbias.
That's okay, not a crime.
Just know that if those thingsare not working for you, that's
not a you problem, that's amethod problem.
Right, that's a?
Well.
I took the same path that allanxious people take, at least in
the beginning, and I may belearning the hard way now that
(15:10):
like that really isn't the wayto lasting recovery, that's okay
.
Even learning what doesn't workis learning, and it counts.
In fact, I would venture toguess and I might assert as I'm
kind of talking out loud herethat almost every anxious person
that gets all the way to youknow what they will determine to
be a recovered state, which, bythe way, means that they might
still experience anxiety or fear.
(15:32):
They're just not afraid of thefear, they're just not anxious
about the anxiety anymore.
Anybody who gets there probablywent through this part where
they tried all the other stuff.
Sometimes they got sometemporary relief out of it,
sometimes they made someprogress, and then it collapsed
again.
They kept up, they were on thehamster wheel, they couldn't get
off it and ultimately they hadto learn.
Well, I guess that doesn't work.
So that's okay, that's how welearn, that's how we learn in
(15:55):
life in general.
We try things, we see what worksand we go with what works, and
then we abandon what doesn'twork and try different things.
It's experimentation, right,say that almost every anxious
person has to go through thistime where they take the path
that seems to be the commonsense one, or seems to offer
immediate relief, seems to offerquick relief, seems to get us a
(16:18):
quick distance between us andthose thoughts and those
sensations and those emotionsthat we fear so much and that
feel so overwhelming anddangerous and urgent.
And then we discover, like,this isn't working for me, but
that's okay.
When you reach the conclusion Ithink this isn't working for me
, just don't make another leapthat says, well, because
something that's wrong with me,that's not because something is
(16:38):
wrong with you at all, it's justbecause I was trying something
that was never going to work.
I mean, heck, I really want theNew York Rangers to win the
Stanley Cup again, but no matterhow much I, you know, hammer on
a piece of wood on my desk,nothing works for the New York
Rangers, because hammering on apiece of wood on my desk was
never going to make them win theStanley Cup.
Now, that's a ridiculous.
You know little, you knowmetaphor there, but you get the
(17:02):
idea it was, if the thing wasnever going to work, because
it's just not really a path thatleads to lasting recovery or
lasting improvement or majorlike significant, durable
improvement, then it's not a youproblem, it's just that was
just the wrong path.
So sometimes what I tell peopleis that your first, you know,
(17:22):
your first way to start to moveforward again into a direction
that might work for you is justchanging direction.
So I've kind of used the shipon the ocean metaphor before.
I've used it with my therapyclients.
If you're in the middle of theAtlantic Ocean and you really
want to get to London, well, youhave to be sailing east.
You got to be going east.
If you keep going west anddon't understand what's
(17:43):
happening because you keephitting your boat into North
Carolina, well that's not a youproblem, it's not even a problem
with your boat, it's not even aproblem with the fact that you
want to go to London.
Like all of those things areokay.
The problem is you've beensailing the boat in the wrong
direction and every time yousmash into North Carolina you
back up and do it again andagain and again and really hope
that the next time will beLondon.
That was never going to work.
So sometimes it is a huge winjust to recognize well, nothing
(18:08):
works for me, not as adeclaration of disaster or
failure, but as a recognitionthat it's like oh, I might have
to try something different here,and I'm allowed to do that
because that might be how I'mgoing to learn something new.
And if you can start to turnthat boat toward the east, even
if you're not moving towardLondon yet yet, but you're just
facing london this time, you arewinning right.
(18:31):
And sometimes, just you know,coming to grips with the idea
that, like, sailing west is justnot working, even though I want
it to, and there may be a lotof emotions and resistance and
you may have to be angry aboutthat and you may be a little
resistant to that.
It's totally normal, it's okay.
You're a human being, you'reallowed to feel those things.
So sometimes it just takes along time to just start to turn
the boat in the right direction,and if that's where you are
(18:53):
right now, that's okay.
If you're still sailing west andfeeling like, but I don't want
to sail east, I want to get toLondon right now, but I still
want to go west, well, okay, Iunderstand why you feel that way
Again, not your fault, it's nota flaw, it's not a problem.
(19:14):
You want to feel better.
It's really okay.
But if you're feeling likenothing works for your anxiety,
ask yourself what have you beentrying?
If you've been trying to avoidor control as your primary
strategies, then you're tryingto sail to London by going west,
and that was never going towork.
First thing you got to do iscome to grips with the idea that
you may have to turn your boatin a different direction, and
then you actually have to turnthat boat, and then you have to
actually start sailing west,little by little.
And guess what, when you turnthe boat and you start sailing
east toward london the properdirection this time, there's
(19:35):
going to be bad weather, there'sgoing to be storms, there might
be other boats out there in theshipping lanes like.
It doesn't mean just becauseyou're going in the new
direction, it's going to besuper smooth sailing.
In fact, that other directionmight be really hard, but that
doesn't mean it's the wrongdirection, right?
So where am I About 20 minutesinto this?
I don't want to belabor thepoint too much because you know
I'll wind up just loopingthrough the same things and just
coming up with differentmetaphors for no good reason.
(19:57):
But if I can give you one thingin this episode, it would be.
If you are, you know,exasperated because you feel
like nothing works, there's areally good chance.
That is not a you problem, thatis a path problem.
Like, oh, I just picked thewrong path.
Well, why did I pick that path?
Well, because I wanted to feelbetter, and I'm a human being,
I'm allowed to want to feelbetter.
I made the best choice I couldin the moment with the
(20:20):
information that I had.
That's okay, give yourself abreak.
Sometimes we can be reallyself-critical and we get that
Craig the Critic thing and wejust start to beat ourselves up
for wasting time.
But that's not a waste of time.
If it taught you what doesn'twork, then that counts.
Learning what doesn't work isjust as important as learning
what does.
So take that out of today, ifanything, take that out of this
(20:41):
episode.
Well, nothing works for me.
Okay, I hate that and I feellike I've wasted time and I want
to beat myself up.
But can I stop, take a fewbreaths and recognize feel like
I've wasted time and I want tobeat myself up, but can I stop,
take a few breaths and recognizethat like, well, if I learned
something from this, maybe I'velearned something about the way
my anxiety works.
Maybe I've learned somethingabout myself.
Maybe I've learned somethingabout my values and what it's
important to me, and now I cantake those things and turn my
(21:02):
boat toward London and actuallygo east and ultimately get there
.
That's okay, you can get there.
So that is my 20-minute rant, oroff-the-cuff sort of
metaphor-laden nonsense, aboutwhat happens when nothing works
for anxiety, with air quotes,right.
So hopefully this has beenhelpful to you.
Take it with you.
(21:22):
Remember this, especially whenyou want to declare failure,
don't get trapped in that hole.
Your mind will want to trap youin that and tell you like, oh,
nothing's going to work, you'rescrewed, you're never going to
get better.
Careful of that.
No, will want to trap you inthat and tell you like, oh,
nothing's going to work, you'rescrewed.
Nothing's that, you're nevergoing to get better.
Careful of that.
No, it just means that I'vebeen trying things that were
never going to work.
Now I might have to trysomething different.
All right, so I will end theepisode the way I usually do ask
a couple of favors if you'rewatching, as on youtube.
(21:44):
On my youtube channel, hit thelike button, maybe subscribe to
the channel and hit thenotification bell so you know
when I upload new stuff.
If you like the video or youhave a question, maybe leave a
comment or share it with someother people.
Of course, if you're listeningto this as a podcast episode on
Spotify or Apple Podcasts andyou can rate and review if you
really like what you see or hearmaybe a five-star rating and if
(22:04):
you're really into the podcast,just maybe take a minute or two
and write a little review, justa couple of sentences, as to
why you like the podcast.
It helps other people find itand then more people get help
and that's why I do this tobegin with.
And yeah, that's it.
I will remind you also that evenif all you do today or for the
next two weeks before my nextpodcast episode, if all you do
(22:24):
is work on coming to grips withthe idea that what I've been
trying is never gonna work forme and I'm gonna have to turn my
boat in the other direction,and if all you manage to do is
turn the boat a little bit in adifferent direction, at least
consider that I might have to gothat way instead of that way,
then you are winning, like thatwill add up.
That is a step forward.
You will get something out ofthat.
(22:44):
It is part of the process.
Do not minimize even the smallthings that other people might
not be able to see, but you'llbe able to see when you look in
the mirror and I'll know you'redoing it and I know it matters.
So hopefully this has beenhelpful to you guys.
I will be back again in twoweeks with another episode of
the Anxious Truth.
If you want more than justevery other week podcast, go to
disorderedfm, because thatpodcast comes out every week.
(23:05):
You can check that out if youfeel like this isn't enough
content for you.
But also remember you can'treally recover by listening to
podcasts.
You've got to actually go anddo things the stuff that I talk
about, the stuff that Josh and Italk about on Disordered.
So thanks for hanging out thisweek.
I appreciate it.
I'll be back in two weeks totalk about something Not sure
what yet, but something.
I'll see you next time.
Oh my God, nothing works for my anxiety and I don't
know what to do.
If you are an anxious personand you are at the point where
you are saying that nothingworks for your anxiety, then
welcome to episode 317 of theAnxious Truth.
This one is for you.
Hello everybody, welcome backto the Anxious Truth.
(00:21):
This is episode 317 of thepodcast we are recording in May
of 2025.
For those of you who arewatching or listening from the
future, I am Drew Linsalata.
I'm creator and host of theAnxious Truth.
I'm a therapist practicing inthe area of anxiety and anxiety
disorders in the state of NewYork.
I'm also a former sufferer ofthe very problems that I speak
and write about.
I'm a three-time author on thetopic of anxiety and anxiety
(00:42):
disorders.
Social media dude,psychoeducator advocate.
You get the deal.
This week on the Anxious Truth,we're going to talk about what
happens when an anxious personstarts to declare that they've
tried everything and nothingworks for their anxiety.
It can lead you into a reallydark place where you feel like
you're worse than everybody else, or your anxiety is somehow
special, or you have a specialimmune form of anxiety that
(01:03):
doesn't respond to anything andyou're kind of stuck.
So we're going to talk aboutthat today because it's a really
common experience,unfortunately, in the community
of people who listen to thispodcast and read my books.
Before we get into this topic,I just want to remind you that
the Anxious Truth is more thanjust this video or this podcast
episode.
There's a ton more resources onmy website at
theanxioustruthcom, includingall the previous podcast
(01:25):
episodes, the other podcast I dowith my buddy, josh Fletcher,
that one's called Disordered.
There's a bunch of workshopsand courses, all of which are
very low cost.
There's a bunch of other freestuff, all the social media
stuff, the books that I'vewritten.
Head on over totheanxioustruthcom and check it
all out.
There's a lot of good stuff,according to the people who use
it, so avail yourself of all theresources.
So I'm sitting outside today.
It's a Sunday afternoon andI've decided to record on a
(01:47):
Sunday afternoon.
This is a little bit old school.
I used to record podcasts thisway.
It's lower production value,but that's okay.
I'm enjoying the weather andhopefully it's going to work for
you guys, so enjoy the treesand the Japanese maple behind me
.
That's the big shock of redleaves.
So let's talk about what happenswhen an anxious person is
struggling for any period oftime with chronic or disordered
states of anxiety and they'reworking overtime for a very long
(02:10):
time to try and get a grip onthat.
They may find that nothing isreally changing.
They're still being triggered.
Quite often they may be havingrecurring panic attacks.
They can't stop theoverthinking, the worrying, the
ruminating, the gad.
It's just kicking into highgear or nothing is working for
their OCD.
And they may start to declareand this may resonate with you
if you're watching or listeningtoday they start to declare
(02:31):
nothing works.
I've tried everything andnothing works for my anxiety.
And when that happens, ananxious person could start to
draw really difficultconclusions like I am specially
broken or my anxiety is somehowdifferent than everybody else's,
or I have a worse form ofanxiety, or there's something
structurally wrong with me ordeficient, and nothing that I
(02:53):
hear like on social media or onpodcasts works for my anxiety.
So there must be somethingwrong with me.
And that can lead you to startto feel sort of despair or
hopeless or feel like there'sreally nowhere for you to go.
And some people start to reachthe conclusion that, like I'm
done, I'm just going to stoptrying because clearly nothing
works.
And that's a tough place to be.
We never want to get therebecause that starts to lead to
(03:15):
depression and ugliness, like Istopped trying and I just
disengage and I just decide toaccept that I'm going to have to
struggle with anxiety and beafraid of my own body, thoughts
and emotions for the rest of mylife, and that's not fair.
We don't want you to wind upthere because you don't have to
wind up there.
So what does it mean whenanxious people say nothing works
for my anxiety?
Well, I can tell you that mostcommonly and this I can take
(03:39):
after you know, however, manyyears 20 to 15 years of doing
this podcast and building a verylarge audience and interacting
with tens of thousands ofanxious people I can tell you
that often the person who saysnothing works for my anxiety is
saying that they've been tryingeverything that they could find,
and I understand why.
Why wouldn't you try this?
You're trying everything youcan find under the sun to manage
(04:01):
your anxiety, to manage yoursymptoms, to control your
nervous system, to regulateyourself, to forcibly heal
something that you think isbroken inside of you.
Generally speaking, the primaryapproach to trying to deal with
chronic and disordered forms ofanxiety tends to be
control-based strategies and inthis context I'm going to say
(04:21):
that's control slash avoidance.
I'm going to put them in thesame category.
Either I'm going to start toavoid anything that might
trigger these difficultsensations or scary thoughts or
really big emotions that I fearso much and that put me into a
spiral, or I'm going to avoidand also trying to figure out
ways to control those things.
I want to control my thoughts,I want to control my emotions, I
(04:43):
want to control my symptoms.
Isn't there something I can doto instantly like tap on my
cheek and turn off my nervoussystem and calm it down right
away?
And, generally speaking, peoplewill default to avoidance,
which perfectly makes sense.
I mean, nobody wants to repeatdifficult experiences.
So we go first to avoidance andthen we tend to go toward
control, and this is fueled bythe current environment that
(05:06):
we're in right now, whereanybody that can fog up a mirror
can declare themselves awellness or a mental health
expert.
Anybody who's ever had a panicattack can decide that they're
an anxiety influencer or healingcoach and start to tell you
ways to control your anxiety ormanage your anxiety, and it can
lead you down a path where youfigure like well, okay.
Well, the conventional wisdomhere is I have to learn to avoid
(05:27):
my triggers, or I have to learnhow to manage my symptoms, or I
have to change my gut health,or I have to get the optimal
amount of sleep, or I have tomake sure that I don't drink
caffeine, or like there's a lotof control stuff that goes with
that, and along with that mightbe things like you have to start
to recognize those triggers soyou can avoid them.
And you know, yeah sure, if I'mafraid to fly, I might not want
(05:48):
to fly because that triggers myfear of flying.
But this is more pervasivethroughout somebody's entire
lifestyle.
They begin to avoid anythingthat might possibly trigger
difficult sensations or scarythoughts or really powerful
emotions.
So people's lives become moreand more rigid and restricted
and things get smaller andsmaller, and that by itself can
lead you into kind of a darkplace.
(06:08):
So if you're looking to try tofeel better which everybody does
and there's nothing wrong withthat I would certainly expect
you to try to feel better,naturally, or want to feel
better, but it can lead you downthe road where you're either
avoiding the feelings thatyou've learned to fear or you're
trying desperately to findtechniques that control the way
your body and mind work, andlately I've been using the
(06:31):
metaphor of knobs and levers,right.
So what we do is we fall intothe trap of trying to figure out
special ways to like, turn theknobs and pull the levers on our
nervous systems or our bodies,or endocrine systems, or our
thoughts or or our emotions, tocontrol them, so that we can
force ourselves into this verynarrow range of state that we
find acceptable, which isgenerally neutral or calm or
(06:54):
maybe happy.
But even paradoxically, manyanxious people have a little bit
of a problem if they get toohappy or too excited, because
that can morph into fear orpanic.
So when we try so hard tocontrol these things, or we
avoid, avoid, avoid things don'treally go the way we want them
to.
Those strategies tend to leadto temporary relief in the
moment, like sure, if I, youknow, I'm having a panic attack
(07:17):
and I run out of the room andget in my car and race home to
what I think is my safe place,suddenly I feel better.
Many people in that situationwill say the minute I start to
head out of, you know, the partythat I'm in, or I get in my car
and start to head toward home.
The minute that happens, Iimmediately start to calm down.
So sure you start to feelbetter.
So I understand why you mightdefault to that sort of thing.
But then there's a price to payon the other side, which is I
(07:38):
left another social event, or Iran out on dinner dinner, or I
left the shopping cart, you know, full of groceries at the
supermarket again and like thishas become a problem for me.
So when we avoid, we tend toescape the feelings that we
don't want to feel, thesensations, the thoughts, the
emotions that we don't wantbecause we fear them so much.
But there's a price to pay.
So we get temporary discomfort,but we get longer term pain in
(08:02):
the form of the consequencesthat come from that avoidance.
And when we try control-basedstrategies, we find that we get
stuck in loops all the time.
They don't work consistentlyand they certainly don't work on
the long term.
So while you may be running forice packs or immediately
calling a safe person, or doingall the things that you could
think of to intentionallydistract yourself from how you
feel, so you can get away fromthose scary thoughts and those
(08:24):
scary sensations, you might infact get some sort of temporary
relief, but once what winds uphappening is, that never lasts.
You get triggered again in anhour or in the next day or two
days from now and you have torepeat that loop again and again
and again.
So the person who is defaultingto primarily control strategies
is trying desperately tomanually control feeling and
thinking and evaluating systemsinside them that were never
(08:47):
designed to be manuallycontrolled.
If we could find ways to hackthe fight or flight response,
we'd be in trouble because weshould not be able to turn that
off.
That's not correct.
We need these processes, weneed those systems in our minds.
We need that threat detectionsystem.
We need the alerting system,like we.
There should not be a way toturn it off just because you
(09:08):
don't like what it's doing atthe moment.
So we wind up fighting againstour natural state and when we
really like just posted aboutthis on my Instagram too, a
couple of days ago.
If we really really look at thecurrent state of things like
neuroscience or cognitivescience right now, you start to
see that, yeah, we're learning ahuge amount, but so much of
what we're learning is focuseddirectly on like wow, these
systems are really interrelatedand they're really complicated
(09:30):
and they've been evolved to workat peak efficiency without us
even knowing about it, or havingto intervene Makes sense.
These are complicated systems,primarily outside of our control
, that are designed to keep ussafe and alive and we don't get
a say in how they work, becausethat would be a terrible design.
Yet, somehow or other, we evenfind ourselves in an environment
today where people take a lotof that science and a lot of
(09:53):
that research and somehow twistit into saying, well, because we
see sort of how theseinterrelated systems work, that
there must be some way now forus to hack into that system and
manually control it Again, badidea.
So when people reach theconclusion that you know I tried
everything and nothing worksfor me, generally speaking, what
they're saying is I've beentrying to control my anxiety, or
(10:14):
I've been just exclusivelyavoiding it for a very long time
, and sure enough, I don't likethe life that I get from that.
So where do we go from here?
I would also have to throw inanother little caveat, which is
some people will say well, Iknow what you're saying, drew.
I listen to your podcast, or Ilisten to Disordered, or I
follow you on social media.
(10:34):
I read your books, I get it.
It's acceptance, right, it'swillful tolerance, it's
surrender, it's mindfulness,it's all of those things Correct
, and I've been doing that andthat doesn't work either.
And whenever somebody tells meacceptance doesn't work for me,
mindfulness doesn't work for me,then that the question itself
or the statement itselfindicates well, this is somebody
who is trying to use thesethings acceptance as a feeling
(10:56):
better technique.
If I accept my anxiety, thenthis is a way for me to turn
knobs and pull levers.
That calms me down and makes mefeel better, makes the anxiety
go away.
That's not the way this works.
So we don't use acceptance,willful tolerance, surrender,
meditation and mindfulness.
We don't use those things asways to operate our anxiety or
operate directly on thoughts oremotions or feelings or bodily
(11:19):
sensations.
We use those things to learnhow to move through those
uncomfortable states in a moreproductive way.
Because, in the end, theproblem here is that those of us
who struggle with thisparticular issue chronic and
distorted states of anxiety willlearn to be afraid of our own
bodies, our minds and ouremotions.
So what we're using when, whatwe're doing when we use
(11:40):
acceptance and mindfulness-basedstrategies, is we are learning
through experience that we don'thave to fear our bodies and
minds, our emotions, anymore.
Those are uncomfortable anddifficult things to deal with
sometimes, but not dangerousthings, so we don't have to be
fearful of them anymore.
So, all that being said, wheredo we go from here?
If you find that you are in aplace where you keep saying I've
(12:03):
tried everything and nothingworks, then you have to ask
yourself what have I been trying?
Have I been trying primarilyavoidance and control-based
strategies?
If you have, then that's notyour fault.
I mean, I understand why youwould try things that are
designed to make you feel betterand sometimes do right away in
the moment.
I get that.
(12:23):
I'm not taking that away fromyou.
You're allowed to want that.
But if that's a strategy thatyou have been primarily trying
for however long weeks, months,years and you keep feeling like
that doesn't work, well, takeheart in the fact that it was
never going to work, and what Imean by work in that context is
it was never going to lead tolong like larger, broader,
(12:44):
lasting, durable change.
Those things were never goingto lead to that.
Ask anybody who feels that theygot better using primarily
avoidance and control strategiesand then it came back.
What that looks like Nine timesout of 10,.
What that means is I learnedstrategies to control my anxiety
(13:05):
, but then at some point lifeoverwhelmed those strategies and
I did feel the things that Ifear so much, and then I didn't
know what to do because I stillfear them.
I couldn't control them.
My control fell apart.
It was overwhelmed by thecircumstance or for whatever
reason.
Maybe I was sick, or maybe Iwas in a difficult time in my
life, or maybe I was under a lotof stress and my control
strategy failed me.
(13:26):
And then all of a sudden I was.
I was hit with those feelingsagain that I fear so much, and
then I say that I'm in a setbackand it came back and all bets
are off and I don't know whythis keeps happening to me.
So nothing works, for myanxiety often appears as
cyclical recovery.
I feel better and then I don't.
I'm doing better and then Idon't, and I go to for an
(13:46):
agoraphobic.
It's often like, oh, I was ableto push out and I expanded my
comfort zone and I was livingmost of my life, and then, blam,
it all came crashing down againin the span of two weeks after
I had two big panic attacks andit was all over.
So where do we go from here?
The first thing I would urgeyou to do is recognize that you
may have been relying onstrategies that were never going
to work for you, but that's notyour fault.
(14:07):
We're never going to work foryou, but that's not your fault.
It's okay to try thosestrategies and everybody
defaults to them at first.
Again, that's okay, sort of thenatural progression of this.
But remember that just becauseyou want something to work
doesn't mean it's going to work.
So I think the first bigtakeaway I would ask you to sort
of consider in this podcastepisode, in this video, would be
(14:27):
knowing the difference betweenwhat you want to work and what
actually has a fighting chanceof really working.
We want everything to work.
We want to feel better rightaway, and that's okay.
Sometimes we want it reallyreally bad.
Sometimes we hold beliefs aboutwellness or the way our bodies
work.
We just like concepts likeregulating our nervous systems
and that sort of stuff, and sowe like them so much that we
(14:48):
want strategies that revolvearound those concepts to work so
bad.
So we keep trying them againand again and again Again.
All human beings have emotionalbias.
That's okay, not a crime.
Just know that if those thingsare not working for you, that's
not a you problem, that's amethod problem.
Right, that's a?
Well.
I took the same path that allanxious people take, at least in
the beginning, and I may belearning the hard way now that
(15:10):
like that really isn't the wayto lasting recovery, that's okay
.
Even learning what doesn't workis learning, and it counts.
In fact, I would venture toguess and I might assert as I'm
kind of talking out loud herethat almost every anxious person
that gets all the way to youknow what they will determine to
be a recovered state, which, bythe way, means that they might
still experience anxiety or fear.
(15:32):
They're just not afraid of thefear, they're just not anxious
about the anxiety anymore.
Anybody who gets there probablywent through this part where
they tried all the other stuff.
Sometimes they got sometemporary relief out of it,
sometimes they made someprogress, and then it collapsed
again.
They kept up, they were on thehamster wheel, they couldn't get
off it and ultimately they hadto learn.
Well, I guess that doesn't work.
So that's okay, that's how welearn, that's how we learn in
(15:55):
life in general.
We try things, we see what worksand we go with what works, and
then we abandon what doesn'twork and try different things.
It's experimentation, right,say that almost every anxious
person has to go through thistime where they take the path
that seems to be the commonsense one, or seems to offer
immediate relief, seems to offerquick relief, seems to get us a
(16:18):
quick distance between us andthose thoughts and those
sensations and those emotionsthat we fear so much and that
feel so overwhelming anddangerous and urgent.
And then we discover, like,this isn't working for me, but
that's okay.
When you reach the conclusion Ithink this isn't working for me
, just don't make another leapthat says, well, because
something that's wrong with me,that's not because something is
(16:38):
wrong with you at all, it's justbecause I was trying something
that was never going to work.
I mean, heck, I really want theNew York Rangers to win the
Stanley Cup again, but no matterhow much I, you know, hammer on
a piece of wood on my desk,nothing works for the New York
Rangers, because hammering on apiece of wood on my desk was
never going to make them win theStanley Cup.
Now, that's a ridiculous.
You know little, you knowmetaphor there, but you get the
(17:02):
idea it was, if the thing wasnever going to work, because
it's just not really a path thatleads to lasting recovery or
lasting improvement or majorlike significant, durable
improvement, then it's not a youproblem, it's just that was
just the wrong path.
So sometimes what I tell peopleis that your first, you know,
(17:22):
your first way to start to moveforward again into a direction
that might work for you is justchanging direction.
So I've kind of used the shipon the ocean metaphor before.
I've used it with my therapyclients.
If you're in the middle of theAtlantic Ocean and you really
want to get to London, well, youhave to be sailing east.
You got to be going east.
If you keep going west anddon't understand what's
(17:43):
happening because you keephitting your boat into North
Carolina, well that's not a youproblem, it's not even a problem
with your boat, it's not even aproblem with the fact that you
want to go to London.
Like all of those things areokay.
The problem is you've beensailing the boat in the wrong
direction and every time yousmash into North Carolina you
back up and do it again andagain and again and really hope
that the next time will beLondon.
That was never going to work.
So sometimes it is a huge winjust to recognize well, nothing
(18:08):
works for me, not as adeclaration of disaster or
failure, but as a recognitionthat it's like oh, I might have
to try something different here,and I'm allowed to do that
because that might be how I'mgoing to learn something new.
And if you can start to turnthat boat toward the east, even
if you're not moving towardLondon yet yet, but you're just
facing london this time, you arewinning right.
(18:31):
And sometimes, just you know,coming to grips with the idea
that, like, sailing west is justnot working, even though I want
it to, and there may be a lotof emotions and resistance and
you may have to be angry aboutthat and you may be a little
resistant to that.
It's totally normal, it's okay.
You're a human being, you'reallowed to feel those things.
So sometimes it just takes along time to just start to turn
the boat in the right direction,and if that's where you are
(18:53):
right now, that's okay.
If you're still sailing west andfeeling like, but I don't want
to sail east, I want to get toLondon right now, but I still
want to go west, well, okay, Iunderstand why you feel that way
Again, not your fault, it's nota flaw, it's not a problem.
(19:14):
You want to feel better.
It's really okay.
But if you're feeling likenothing works for your anxiety,
ask yourself what have you beentrying?
If you've been trying to avoidor control as your primary
strategies, then you're tryingto sail to London by going west,
and that was never going towork.
First thing you got to do iscome to grips with the idea that
you may have to turn your boatin a different direction, and
then you actually have to turnthat boat, and then you have to
actually start sailing west,little by little.
And guess what, when you turnthe boat and you start sailing
east toward london the properdirection this time, there's
(19:35):
going to be bad weather, there'sgoing to be storms, there might
be other boats out there in theshipping lanes like.
It doesn't mean just becauseyou're going in the new
direction, it's going to besuper smooth sailing.
In fact, that other directionmight be really hard, but that
doesn't mean it's the wrongdirection, right?
So where am I About 20 minutesinto this?
I don't want to belabor thepoint too much because you know
I'll wind up just loopingthrough the same things and just
coming up with differentmetaphors for no good reason.
(19:57):
But if I can give you one thingin this episode, it would be.
If you are, you know,exasperated because you feel
like nothing works, there's areally good chance.
That is not a you problem, thatis a path problem.
Like, oh, I just picked thewrong path.
Well, why did I pick that path?
Well, because I wanted to feelbetter, and I'm a human being,
I'm allowed to want to feelbetter.
I made the best choice I couldin the moment with the
(20:20):
information that I had.
That's okay, give yourself abreak.
Sometimes we can be reallyself-critical and we get that
Craig the Critic thing and wejust start to beat ourselves up
for wasting time.
But that's not a waste of time.
If it taught you what doesn'twork, then that counts.
Learning what doesn't work isjust as important as learning
what does.
So take that out of today, ifanything, take that out of this
(20:41):
episode.
Well, nothing works for me.
Okay, I hate that and I feellike I've wasted time and I want
to beat myself up.
But can I stop, take a fewbreaths and recognize feel like
I've wasted time and I want tobeat myself up, but can I stop,
take a few breaths and recognizethat like, well, if I learned
something from this, maybe I'velearned something about the way
my anxiety works.
Maybe I've learned somethingabout myself.
Maybe I've learned somethingabout my values and what it's
important to me, and now I cantake those things and turn my
(21:02):
boat toward London and actuallygo east and ultimately get there
.
That's okay, you can get there.
So that is my 20-minute rant, oroff-the-cuff sort of
metaphor-laden nonsense, aboutwhat happens when nothing works
for anxiety, with air quotes,right.
So hopefully this has beenhelpful to you.
Take it with you.
(21:22):
Remember this, especially whenyou want to declare failure,
don't get trapped in that hole.
Your mind will want to trap youin that and tell you like, oh,
nothing's going to work, you'rescrewed, you're never going to
get better.
Careful of that.
No, will want to trap you inthat and tell you like, oh,
nothing's going to work, you'rescrewed.
Nothing's that, you're nevergoing to get better.
Careful of that.
No, it just means that I'vebeen trying things that were
never going to work.
Now I might have to trysomething different.
All right, so I will end theepisode the way I usually do ask
a couple of favors if you'rewatching, as on youtube.
(21:44):
On my youtube channel, hit thelike button, maybe subscribe to
the channel and hit thenotification bell so you know
when I upload new stuff.
If you like the video or youhave a question, maybe leave a
comment or share it with someother people.
Of course, if you're listeningto this as a podcast episode on
Spotify or Apple Podcasts andyou can rate and review if you
really like what you see or hearmaybe a five-star rating and if
(22:04):
you're really into the podcast,just maybe take a minute or two
and write a little review, justa couple of sentences, as to
why you like the podcast.
It helps other people find itand then more people get help
and that's why I do this tobegin with.
And yeah, that's it.
I will remind you also that evenif all you do today or for the
next two weeks before my nextpodcast episode, if all you do
(22:24):
is work on coming to grips withthe idea that what I've been
trying is never gonna work forme and I'm gonna have to turn my
boat in the other direction,and if all you manage to do is
turn the boat a little bit in adifferent direction, at least
consider that I might have to gothat way instead of that way,
then you are winning, like thatwill add up.
That is a step forward.
You will get something out ofthat.
(22:44):
It is part of the process.
Do not minimize even the smallthings that other people might
not be able to see, but you'llbe able to see when you look in
the mirror and I'll know you'redoing it and I know it matters.
So hopefully this has beenhelpful to you guys.
I will be back again in twoweeks with another episode of
the Anxious Truth.
If you want more than justevery other week podcast, go to
disorderedfm, because thatpodcast comes out every week.
(23:05):
You can check that out if youfeel like this isn't enough
content for you.
But also remember you can'treally recover by listening to
podcasts.
You've got to actually go anddo things the stuff that I talk
about, the stuff that Josh and Italk about on Disordered.
So thanks for hanging out thisweek.
I appreciate it.
I'll be back in two weeks totalk about something Not sure
what yet, but something.
I'll see you next time.
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Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes present: Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial
Introducing… Aubrey O’Day Diddy’s former protege, television personality, platinum selling music artist, Danity Kane alum Aubrey O’Day joins veteran journalists Amy Robach and TJ Holmes to provide a unique perspective on the trial that has captivated the attention of the nation. Join them throughout the trial as they discuss, debate, and dissect every detail, every aspect of the proceedings. Aubrey will offer her opinions and expertise, as only she is qualified to do given her first-hand knowledge. From her days on Making the Band, as she emerged as the breakout star, the truth of the situation would be the opposite of the glitz and glamour. Listen throughout every minute of the trial, for this exclusive coverage. Amy Robach and TJ Holmes present Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial, an iHeartRadio podcast.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.