December 4, 2024 • 45 mins
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Want to know more about Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy (REBT) and how it might be applied in your situation? Join us this week for insights from the world-renowned therapist Dr. Debbie Joffe-Ellis as she guides us through the origins, core concepts, and application of REBT. Discover how this pioneering cognitive behavioral approach can help you reshape your perceptions and beliefs, offering a path to recovery from anxiety disorders like panic disorder, agoraphobia, OCD, and generalized anxiety disorder (GAD). With Dr. Debbie’s expert guidance, we explore how understanding that our beliefs—not circumstances—drive our emotions can lead to profound personal change.
By challenging rigid language and embracing mindful word choices, you can create a more flexible mindset. Alongside parallels to philosophical wisdom from Stoicism and Taoism, we humorously address the challenges of relapse and persistence, offering practical strategies for maintaining progress.
Taking control of your emotional well-being starts with self-compassion and acceptance. We're looking crucial role of managing secondary emotions and practicing unconditional self-acceptance, while acknowledging the role that medication may play for some individuals. Dr. Debbie inspires us to be kinder to ourselves, akin to the compassion we extend to others.
For more on REBT and Dr. Debbie Joffe-Ellis:
https://debbiejoffeellis.com/
For full show notes on this episode:
https://theanxioustruth.com/306
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Interested in doing therapy with me? For more information on working with me directly to overcome your anxiety, follow this link.
Disclaimer: The Anxious Truth is not therapy or a replacement for therapy. Listening to The Anxious Truth does not create a therapeutic relationship between you and the host or guests of the podcast. Information here is provided for psychoeducational purposes. As always, when you have questions about your own well-being, please consult your mental health and/or medical care providers. If you are having a mental health crisis, always reach out immediately for in-person help.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey there, welcome to episode 306 of the Anxious
Truth.
This is the podcast where wecover all things anxiety,
anxiety disorders and anxietyrecovery.
Now, today we do not have anymusic, we don't have any fancy
intro or outro, but we do have aconversation about rational
emotive behavior therapy, rebt.
Rebt, I kid you not, is the OGof modern cognitive behavioral
(00:23):
therapies.
It was created and introducedto the world by Dr Albert Ellis
back in the 1950s and 1960s.
He really led the way in moderncognitive behavioral therapies
and REBT has been in widespreaduse ever since.
It's an empirically supportedtherapy.
There's a lot of data andresearch behind it and today we
have a very special guest tojoin us to talk about REBT.
(00:44):
Her name is Dr Debbie JaffeEllis, otherwise known as Dr
Debbie, and while she does havethe same last name and was in
fact married to Dr Ellis, shewas his collaborator at the tail
end of his career.
But her work stands on its own.
She is more than just the wifeof the late Dr Ellis, but she
was his partner, hiscollaborator, and she is a bit
of a legend in therapy andcounseling herself.
(01:06):
So Dr Debbie was kind enough totake some time to talk to us
today about REBT.
We're going to talk about itsorigin stories, its nuances, its
unique features, how it mightbe applied in the context of
treating anxiety disorders.
I had a great time talking toher.
She is a lovely individual,very friendly, very open, very
kind, very willing to share andeducate.
It was really good.
Before we get to the interview,just a quick reminder that the
(01:29):
Anxious Truth is more than justthis video or this podcast
episode.
There are a ton more resourcesthat you can find on my website
at theanxioustruthcom.
Go check it out if you're soinclined.
Let's get Dr Debbie on.
I hope you guys enjoy this.
I'll come back at the end towrap it up, dr Debbie.
Dr Debbie Jaffe Ellis, welcome.
Thank you so much for takingthe time to hang out today for a
(01:50):
little while.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
It is my pleasure, on this cloudy Manhattan day, to
hang out with you, drew, andenjoy talking about whatever
we're going to talk about.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
We are going to wing it.
Now you guys know me enough toknow that I often wing it, and
Dr Debbie was clearly my people.
She's like, yeah, let's totallywing it and I'm like this is
what we're going to do.
So before we get started, youknow we were talking before I
hit the record button about theaudience with this podcast is
predominantly people dealingwith anxiety disorders.
So give us the Reader's Digestversion or not.
(02:25):
Talk as long as you want, Idon't care if you take up the
whole episode, I'm just going tolisten.
Within the framework of REBTrational emotive behavioral
therapy how would you approachthings like panic disorder,
agoraphobia, ocd, gad?
You know the usual suspects.
What does REBT have to tell usabout those particular struggles
and how do you approach them?
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Yeah, REBT can be very helpful.
Now, depending on the degree ofthe impact of whichever of
those emotions that youmentioned, it may take a longer
or shorter time to noticesignificant change, to notice
significant change With ongoingeffort applying.
(03:06):
What I'm about to describe,it's a biological, scientific
fact that change is probable ifa person persists.
So what am I talking about?
So, Drew, I'm not familiar withwhether your listeners are
familiar with the principles ofREBT.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
Well, my listeners generally understand what CBT is
, but I've never really giventhe difference and the fact that
REBT predates CBT.
So yeah, let's do a littlebackground on what it really is.
That would be great.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Okay, my pleasure.
So REBT Rational EmotiveBehavior Therapy created by my
late, brilliant, amazing husband, dr Albert Ellis, heralded in
the cognitive revolution inpsychotherapy.
He was trained to be apsychoanalyst a la Freud,
(03:59):
because when he was at collegethere really wasn't any choice
there was Freud, there was earlybehaviorism.
Anyway, he was an excellentpsychoanalyst but he felt
impatient with it because henoticed that many of the people
he worked with felt better aftera session and there could be
insights.
They weren't getting better,they weren't proactively making
(04:24):
effort to change whateverthinking and behavior was
contributing to disablingemotions or disturbances.
And so, bit by bit and we don'thave time for me to go into the
whole history, but he createdREBT.
Now he was a mentor and a helpand an inspiration to Dr Aaron
(04:47):
Beck, who's considered thefather of CBT.
Cbt came out 15 years afterREBT.
So I'm really glad, for anyonewho's interested in accurate
historical chronology, that REBTwas the pioneering cognitive
approach.
So there's the background.
A few little bits about itbefore I answer your first
(05:11):
question about anxiety and panicand so forth.
So one of the main principlesof REBT and I love it because
it's so empowering and if aperson certainly is not
cognitively impaired, but ifthey are not and have the
willingness to make change inorder to create less misery and
(05:36):
experience more joy in life, inlife that will contain, in all
probability, challenges and lossand some pain healthy pain of
loss and so forth but one of thetragedies, I believe, of so
many humans is they're not awareand here's the point I'm
(05:57):
leading to, the first basicelement of REBT that it's not
circumstances that create ouremotions, but the way we
perceive the circumstances, howwe think about them, our beliefs
about them.
And if we think in irrationalways about happenings that we
(06:20):
don't want, some that may bebrutal and tragic or not getting
what we do want, when we thinkin irrational ways, we create
what REBT calls unhealthy,negative emotions.
Negative, not because they'rebad, but they're not so pleasant
, and they include anxiety,extreme fear, panic,
(06:44):
hopelessness, despondency,depression, rage, guilt and
shame.
Now, their healthy counterparts, which we create when we think
in healthy ways, are concerninstead of panic, fear and
anxiety.
It's healthy to have thatlittle adrenaline, boosting
(07:06):
motivation to move our tushesand get things done and so forth
or to attend to certain things.
So concern is healthy.
Anxiety, panic, fear,debilitating when we think in
rational ways, instead ofdespondency and depression,
healthy grief, sadness,disappointment, instead of rage,
(07:30):
that moral anger.
We're still in control.
We don't react.
We choose as best as we humanlycan to respond when we receive
or observe immoral, unethicalbehaviour or situations.
And finally, instead of guiltand shame, which often are
(07:52):
present when a person is notexperiencing meaning in life and
is hopeless, and often presentin people who attempt suicide,
we experience and create regret,which is another, like healthy
anger, emotion connected to ourinner moral compass.
(08:14):
So, very quickly getting toanswer your question about
anxiety, panic and fear, whatare the irrational ways of
thinking that would createanxiety and other unhealthy,
negative emotions?
We have demands, we haveshoulds, we have musts, very
(08:36):
rigid thinking, and a few of thecommon ones are I must do well
and be liked loved, approved ofby everyone.
Now, when someone holds that,little wonder that they create
anxiety if someone looks at themcross-eyed or with a
disapproving face, or if they'rerejected or abandoned because
(08:59):
they have this underlyingirrational belief that they must
be approved of or it's awful,or it proves they're worthless
or, worse, makes sense In myaudience just to interject a
little bit.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
we see that the must is always I must only be calm or
I must not feel these feelingsto be okay.
That's the predominant mustamong the people who are
listening to you right now.
I would say yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
It sounds like the belief behind those beliefs.
I must not be me, I must not behuman.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
I must not be fallible.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
I must not be fallible If I'm not acting as I
should.
I must not be compassionate andgentle of myself in ways I
probably easily am with others.
Yeah, aren't we cruel toourselves when we're not
thinking things through?
Speaker 1 (10:01):
Yeah, it's amazing, I think, the amount of
self-criticism that comes out.
I'm failing because I'm anxious.
I'm failing because I can'tcontrol this very human
experience that was never meantto be controlled.
So yeah, I hear you.
Does that speak a little bit tothe rationality how REBT sort
of defines rational?
Who decides what's rational ornot?
I'm sure people are wonderingWell, who decided that?
(10:23):
Did Albert Ellis decide whatwas rational or not?
Speaker 2 (10:24):
people, I'm sure people are wondering well, who
decided that?
Did albert ellis decide whatwas rational?
No, but he really verysuccinctly described some of the
main elements, which include,coming to what you were saying
drew unconditionalself-acceptance that every human
has worth simply because weexist.
(10:45):
We may do some bad things, someshitty things.
It doesn't make us a bad person, akin to excrement.
We may do some saintly things.
It doesn't make us a goodperson.
It makes us a person who's donesome good things.
So each human.
This is inherent in REBT and inother philosophies, by the way,
(11:07):
but I'm here as the REBT queen,or whatever you want to call it
queen for the day.
So, yeah, that I mean.
I ask listeners, ask yourselves, how comfortable do I allow
myself to be in my own skin?
(11:29):
How much effort, if any, am Imaking to embrace my fallibility
?
And even when I'm creating anunhealthy emotion, is that a
reason that I have less worth orto put myself down?
My response to that, and yoursI'm sure, drew, is no, yeah,
(12:11):
that's true.
So one of the elements ofirrational might be just to give
listeners and viewers anopportunity to reflect on
whether they think in any ofthese ways I mentioned.
I must always do perfectly well, you and you can be an
individual or a group or areligion or a political party.
(12:31):
Gee, any political stuff goingon right now?
No, no, no, don't know why.
I thought of that country.
So you must act the way I thinkyou should.
You must believe the way Ithink you should believe.
You must believe what I believe.
You must treat me the way Ithink you should.
(12:51):
You know that belief is at theheart.
On a milder scale though, it'snot necessarily mild
relationship breakups, but on aglobal scale, that belief you
should be the way I think youshould is at the root of
terrorism and war and hatred.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
Yeah, yeah, you should be the way I need you to
be, or I want you to be.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
I insist that you be, or else it proves that you're
not worthy, or worse.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Do you ever find that that's a difficult?
And it's interesting becausethere's a bent in REBT that I
really identify with and becauseit's an acknowledgement of the
reality of the way the world andpeople are, which is really
important, I think, as in partof RBT, at least the way I see
it and so there's almost anirrationality.
The next, the third thing thatI might think would be
(13:44):
irrational in that frameworkwould be I am refusing to
acknowledge the reality of theworld as it just is.
People sometimes aren't like us, or I do make mistakes or I do
have bad feelings.
Yeah, this is the way.
Have bad feelings.
Yeah, this is the way life issometimes.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Yeah, yeah, I would say the attitude that's
encouraged through REBT orcommon sense wisdom is the
benefit of adopting an attitudeof realistic optimism.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
Oh, that's really good.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Yeah, so optimism because, damn it, where there's
life, there is hope, unless one,literally, is in pain almost
24-7, you know, and quality oflife is not good and there's
really no biological indicationthat things will get better.
(14:37):
But for that, and if someone iscognitively impaired and unable
to be, you know, if there's apsychosis, or not able to
understand the principles thatwe're talking about and they're
not complicated but for thoseinstances there are enough
(14:57):
examples that where there's life, there is hope that things can
get better.
Oh, the other group of peoplethat doesn't apply to and I'm
(15:26):
not meaning to sound people whoare listening to us are alive.
We're talking, I hope we'retalking to them.
Yeah, I hope we're talking tothem.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
Yeah, but I'm not that good.
I'm not reaching the deceased.
I've got a big audience, butthey're all alive.
That's true.
Well, as far as you know, asfar as I know at least, I don't
know If there's any zombieslistening shoot me an email yeah
.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Unusual life forms, but apart from that, so reality
based, definitely.
And in fact, one of the thingsthat rebt encourages us to do,
if we are determined to sufferless and enjoy life more, is to
identify those self-defeatingbeliefs and dispute the guts out
(16:15):
of them.
And one of the ways we disputeis through asking questions.
And one of the questions iswhere is the evidence?
Again, reality-based?
Oh, I'm telling myself, I haveno worth, I don't deserve to
exist.
Where's the evidence?
Oh, I failed at this.
(16:36):
How does it follow that if youfail at something, you have no
worth?
You know this kind ofquestioning and questioning.
How's it logical?
Where is it getting me or youor us, to think in these ways?
And we question the irrationalbeliefs and, as a result of that
, new realistic truths emerge.
(16:57):
Well, I may not be perfect, butI have a right to exist.
You know, it depends on whatthe issue is who the person is.
I have worth simply because Iam.
I like the approval of others,but I don't need it.
(17:17):
Your opinion of me is none ofmy business.
That's Eleanor Roosevelt.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
Yeah, I always love that one.
You know, one of those in thisaudience that you're addressing
today might be I can't handleextreme anxiety, but you always
do.
I just don't like it, but youdo handle it.
So where is the?
The one of the things you saidearlier was really great like
there's a high likelihood ofchange.
I mean, I might argue thatchange is going to happen no
matter what you do, because wechange.
(17:44):
The world is not, people arenot static, the world is not,
universe is not static.
So where's the?
Where's the agent of change?
So if you, as the helper, I'm,I'm your client and you're the
therapist, no, hope for you.
No hope for me.
Clearly, everybody knows this,but I tell you Someone else.
No, it's fine, I can't handlethis.
(18:06):
Your challenge to me might bewell, where's the evidence for
that?
Yeah, now does the change come,just because you told me that
my thought was irrational.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
No, your change has very little to do with what I'm
going to tell you and everythingto do with the effort that
you're going to make.
And so the change will comethrough repetition, repetition,
repetition.
There's this field calledneuroplasticity that has proven
that with repetition, be itbehaviors, physical behaviors or
(18:44):
thoughts new neural pathwaysare formed in the brain, and not
just when we're kids, you know,when we're adults.
Unless there's some neuropathyor sorry, neurobiological reason
, it's not too late.
And so through repetition,neuroplasticity is found that it
(19:06):
takes at least 30 days For somepeople it might be more, for
some people it may not be moreFor new neural pathways, new
habitual ways of thinking to beformed in the brain.
So the key is identify the toxicthoughts, dispute the guts out
of them, because if we don'tbelieve them they're less likely
(19:28):
to come up.
Now, habitually they may stillfor a while, in which case we
keep disputing.
But as time goes on, what's notcredible because we disputed it
, we saw there was no truth init is less likely to come up.
And then, the more we repeatthe healthy, new rational
(19:48):
recognitions you know, put it onyour phone, post it all over
the place, remind yourself, putit, record it and listen to it a
few times each.
I have worth because I exist.
I honor my fallibility.
I embrace being human, whateverit is.
Where is it written that?
(20:10):
And repetition Therein lieschange.
No, not what I say to anyone.
Hopefully that triggers anawareness.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
But then repetition, repetition and notice the change
over time, it also might informa different action.
So if I'm stuck in maladaptive,avoidant behavioral patterns
that are based on my irrationalthoughts, hey, dr Debbie might
(20:40):
give me a reason to at leastconsider that maybe that belief
isn't correct and I can act indifferent ways.
Would you use that as part ofthe framework?
Speaker 2 (20:50):
Certainly, you know, whatever helps, whatever helps
some people, it's the's theactions, for others it's the
thinking alone, for many, it'sboth and um and and.
To go back to what you broughtup a few minutes ago, drew um
when someone said oh, I forgetyour exact words, but along the
(21:12):
lines of I always make myselfanxious, or I can't stop being
anxious, I forget.
But along those lines I willimmediately say insert till now.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Really good right.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
Because the past does not need to dictate what the
future will be, unless we keepon doing what we've tended to do
.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
They're very practical sounding.
I mean, everybody listening, ifthey've hung around for a while
, this is all sounding veryfamiliar, right?
All this stuff seems to alignso nicely, and the idea that we
have agency here.
Yeah, that I love the practicalapplication here.
Like well, let me show you thatyou actually do have some power
here.
You are able to enact a change.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Only we can create our own change.
No one can do it for us.
Others can encourage, canencourage, guide, educate.
I think that they're roles thatyou and I love to enact, to be
to it.
But unless someone takes actionand works on themselves
(22:28):
steadily and consistently,change won't happen.
Now, sometimes a person willwork on themselves and there's
relapse.
Hello, human, not unusual.
So, as the song goes, I see theinstruments on your wall, pick
myself up, wipe myself down andstart all over again.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
Why do I feel like, if I'm your patient or client,
there's going to be singing atsome point?
I don't know why.
I was in a webinar that DrDibby did a couple of weeks ago
where you had everybody on theZoom trying to sing together.
That was great.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
Yeah.
Why do you think that wayBecause you have evidence and
maybe you also think I like totorture other people.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
Yeah, that must be what it is people.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
Yeah, that must be what it is.
Must you said must?
That's another thing I do.
I jump on people, notnecessarily literally but with
humor, when I say people,clients or students, um, to help
them be more aware of what canbe thoughtless, habitual lingo.
The must word, you know theshould.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
And one of the gifts of REBT and again, there are
other philosophies andapproaches who do this too, but
I'm talking about REBT is theencouragement to be more mindful
, to think about our thinkingand to choose our words.
Words do have power, you know,and very impactful, if not
(24:01):
consciously, subconsciously, andso I do it with humour but if
you're at one of my classes,like just yesterday at Columbia,
someone, one of my students,was talking and said must, and I
like must and it createslaughter.
But there's a point to that.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
Yeah, I kind of get that there's rigidity in must.
I guess two key words would bemust and should.
Right, I should, or I must, orI have to, I can't.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Yeah, and REBT asserts that one of the most
powerful ways and the good newsis it's not even difficult but
it requires consistent effortwhich is identify the shoulds
and musts, identify them, thendispute them, question them,
(24:51):
then replace them and repeat,repeat, repeat.
Not hard, but it's required tobe done if one sincerely is
motivated to change.
Now I say that because somepeople love blaming, others love
blaming life, are kind ofaddicted to being the victim and
(25:13):
the attention that can bring.
So if they're not motivated tochange, they might say well, I
hate being anxious, but if thepayoff in their minds is
maintaining unhealthy ways ofbeing and feeling in order to
get what they think are rewards,they probably won't change may
(25:35):
get to change.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
Oh, that's that principle of autonomy you get to
pick the path you want and weget to respect it, I guess.
But yeah, that's really great.
I love how you bring up theties to.
I think REBT is one of the mostphilosophical.
Yes, yeah, so you could draw astraight line back to the Stoics
and Taoism and Buddhism.
We suffer because we resist, wego with the way of the Tao, we
(25:58):
control what we can and leavethe rest behind.
You know, there's so muchphilosophy that I love so much.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
That's so true, al Albert Ellis.
Dr Albert Ellis, that's okay,we can call him Al yeah.
I was married to the guy.
I slept with the guy.
I didn't call him Dr Ellis, soI will call him.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
Al, we do not judge what people do in the privacy of
their own home or anything,just saying, oh, feel free to
judge.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
The judge is fantastic.
Anyway, he said yeah, so he wasliterally a genius, a speed
reader.
So he was literally a genius, aspeed reader, and as a child he
would borrow as many books ashis local library would allow
him to borrow and read them,return them, read overnight.
And he loved philosophy.
(26:51):
Certainly, and you mentionedthe Stoic philosophies and the
Eastern philosophies.
Definitely were influences andaspects, as he would acknowledge
are embedded in the REBTphilosophy and it's interesting
(27:12):
I have one of his books that waspublished in the 1800s.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Well, not one of his, but he didn't write it.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
No, he didn't write it, he owned it and it's by
Epictetus the Enchiridon.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
That's the manual of life.
It's right there, not the 1800sversion, the new version it's
on there.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
I'm not the 1800s version.
The new version is on my shelf.
Yeah, so the 1800 version isthere and you know, gold around
the board and beautiful, and theway Al would read books was he
would underline bits that weresignificant.
He would put crosses next toparts he didn't agree with and
checks next to parts that he did, and then he would underline
(27:58):
USA unconditionalself-acceptance when what he was
reading in the Terrigan or theTao or Buddhist works and works
by Lao Tzu, and yeah, so you'reright that elements of those
philosophies.
Now there are differences aswell.
(28:19):
Like with Eastern philosophies,there's a lot in common between
Tibetan Buddhism and REBT andactually the Dalai Lama, in one
of his books called the Art ofHappiness, acknowledges doctors
Ellis and Becks.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
That's the book.
There you go.
All right, so we both get to.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
Are we surrounded by the same library?
Speaker 1 (28:48):
We seem to be.
I haven't read too many booksabout Vikings, so I will admit
that Neither have I.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
Yeah, I think they probably did quite a bit of
shooting in their canoes.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
Probably it worked for them evidently so the Dalai
Lama was a fan, it sounds like,or he at least acknowledged the
work.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
Yes, and yes, on my husband's 80th sorry, 90, I
didn't know him when he was 80,but he was a lot older than me.
Just want to say, in caseanyone's wondering, I'm not 110
and this isn't great plasticsurgery.
I haven't had any plasticsurgery, but anyway.
(29:33):
No, the Dalai Lama sent Al awhite silk scarf that he had
blessed and Al was actually Al,and I had arranged to go visit
him one weekend.
His late brother had a temple,I think, in I want to say Iowa
(29:59):
or Idaho, somewhere startingwith an I, and we had planned to
go.
The Dalai Lama was there, andthe night before the journey my
husband was seriously ill, likehe nearly lost his life, so we
couldn't make it, but we wereplanning to go.
(30:20):
They had much in common.
Um, both of them and and theysaid this in different times um
love to explore things.
When our kids would pull clocksand toys apart in order to
figure out how they worked andput them together again, both of
them chose to work on atendency to be angry and
(30:43):
impatient.
Even the masters make effort ifthey're human.
That's the way it goes right.
And both of them, like TibetanBuddhism and REBT, embrace this
attitude of unconditional otheracceptance, where one can detest
(31:04):
brutal behaviour but not detestthe person doing it or hate
them or dislike them intensely.
And so, in the case of theDalai Lama, he said, whilst he's
against the policies of theChinese government, he doesn't
(31:25):
hate Chinese people.
And my husband, sadly, at theend of his life, in the final
years, his institute kind offired him and kicked him out for
no good reasons.
And there was a lot ofpublicity at the time because my
husband was an icon, deservedly, and New York Times and New
(31:45):
York and there were articles andso forth, and I think it was
the New York Times or the NewYorker magazine.
One of the articles quoted myhusband as saying I hate what
they're doing.
They, the certain directors ofthe institute that had kicked
him out and wanted to change themission statement Hate what
they're doing.
(32:06):
Al said but I don't hate themand that was true.
I mean it wasn't just themaster wanting to sound
authentic, he was authentic.
He didn't hate them.
He even had compassion on theirlimited ways of thinking that
and their ambition, theirselfish in some ways, ambition
(32:26):
that drove them to do some ofthe actions that they did.
So yeah, Al and the Dalai Lamahad many things in common.
But I was going to say some ofthe things that are different.
Really briefly, the, theabsolutism in some tibetan
buddhist encouragements, suchstrive for perfection reach the
(32:48):
state of nirvana.
So al would say he wasskeptical that that was possible
.
Perfection, striving forexcellence, you know, but?
But it could be self-defeatingand even harmful for a person to
think they should attain aparticular state that may
realistically not be possible.
(33:11):
Strive for excellence, yes.
Strive to be perfect, uh,what's the line?
Anxiety you know from.
I must be perfect and if I'mnot, hello.
Anxiety.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
Yeah, especially for the folks struggling with GAD,
that's a big component.
Oftentimes it's interestingbecause and I'm a fan, I'm not
picking anybody here, but if welook at things like
mindfulness-based stressreduction and Jon Kabat-Zinn,
who often gets and he deservesall the credit he gets for sure
Well, he westernized, he made itwestern accessible, some of
those eastern philosophies, butI might argue that he wasn't the
(33:47):
first one to do that.
You know I, because thatlanguage, the omission of the
absolute achievement which, yeah, in western culture would get
gripped onto as evidence of mythat's how I know I'm doing
better when I achieve you got todrop that in our culture, I
think.
So that was brilliant to leavethat out.
Now I'm just like fanboyinghere, that's so.
(34:10):
Yeah, somehow we veered intojust like a chat that I'm
enjoying.
I don't know if you guys areenjoying it, but, um, I think
one of the cool things is whenyou look at the example that the
Dalai Lama sets, that yourhusband set, that these people
set.
What it says again and againand again is I have a choice, I
have agency, even in difficultsituations because life is going
(34:32):
to hand them to me.
I have some agency in what I dowith that.
I don't like what they're doingto me, but I don't hate them,
boy.
There's such power in that, andthat's applicable to people
with anxiety disorders maybe notdirectly, but it's.
That idea is applicable.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
Yeah, and Drew, as you kind of touched on earlier,
and then we got on anotherstream or a related stream.
But a lot of people might thinkthat it's not easy.
How do I unconditionally acceptsomeone who's done rotten
things to me, who's really actedin brutal ways, and the people
(35:17):
who are willing to accept thefact that hanging on to their
toxic anger about the wrongdoeror their resentment, bitterness
and what I'm about to say is aphrase that my husband created
(35:38):
but it's now part of everydaylingo.
So hanging on to that is likeeating poison and waiting for
the other person to die.
It's not going to hurt them,but it can literally shorten
one's life.
So how does one achieve that?
You know, look at murderers,rapists and so forth especially
if they've impacted onepersonally and unconditionally
(35:59):
accept them.
Well, first of all, it'simportant to realise that
unconditionally acceptinganother person doesn't mean you
unconditionally accept theirrotten behaviour, and REBT would
certainly encourage seekingjustice when possible, but from
a state of stability rather thanrage.
(36:20):
And so when someone earnestlyrecognises that they've been
holding onto this toxic emotionand it's hurting them and they
don't want to, but they don'tknow how to drop it, I invite
them to consider the followingthat again, it requires one
(36:42):
wanting to change.
So the evildoer and hear what Isay, I didn't say the evil
person, but it's a person whodid some evil things in that
instance or instances.
That person was once a baby too,once a helpless little piece of
(37:06):
biological life as well, justas any one of us was.
But I ask a person to considerif any one of us had their
biology, their neurobiological,chemical makeup, their genetic
predispositions, if any one ofus was brought up the way that
(37:29):
they were brought up and gotsome toxic, negative, hateful
messages, were indoctrinated,subtly or overtly, to believe
they're worthless and uselessand had some kind of bad
influence in puberty, teenageyears, adult years, if any one
(37:50):
of us was thinking what theywere thinking when they did the
evil actions, isn't it possiblethat we would do a similar or
the same thing?
And I think if one isruthlessly honest one would say
yeah, it is likely, and that canallow us to be grateful for the
(38:28):
fact that we may not have donea bad thing, to distinguish
between that bad thing and thefact that where there's life
there's hope.
We can work on not repeatingdoing that bad thing.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
Yeah, I love all this .
So much of that would almostimply then, if I'm going to
adopt unconditional otheracceptance or unconditional
self-acceptance, I'm going toforgive myself for the thing
that causes me so much guilt.
Because we do see, even thoughthis is not necessarily anxiety
disorder territory, you know, Idon't have to tell you, you've
been at this longer than I havethat stuff often enters the chat
(38:56):
anyway.
There's not just panic attacks,there's other stuff that could
be so helpful.
But it implies you may have tojust learn how to be with
uncomfortable feelings.
Sometimes I'm so angry at thisperson for what they did for me,
to me.
But if I'm going to move pastthat, I'm going to have to learn
(39:17):
how to be with that anger andlet it work itself out in a
healthy way instead of hangingon to it as rage.
And that's tough work.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
Yeah, but oh, it's so worthwhile.
So, anger about anger that'scalled like a secondary emotion
or anxiety about anxiety.
Oh, I'll never get over myanxiety.
I've gone to therapy for threeweeks and I'm still anxious.
So the way to handle thatsecondary anxiety or unhealthy
(39:45):
emotion is to deal with it first, before going back to the
primary, by normalising it.
It's not unusual, it's common.
It can take time and toencourage, as you said, that
unconditional self-acceptanceI'm fallible, I have flaws.
I've been doing this a longtime, believing this a long time
(40:06):
.
It will take time.
I can make effort, bit by bit.
If I relapse, I can pick up andjust self-nurturing,
self-encouragement, and thatoften can lessen or remove the
anxiety about the anxiety.
And then we can get to the rootthoughts behind the anxiety.
(40:27):
Now, not to ignore, some peoplehave an endogenous
predisposition and sometimesmedication helps.
But sometimes medication is notnecessary and just ongoing
effort.
And, by the way, medicationalone is not empowering.
It can bring a kind ofstability.
But if a person benefits fromcertain medication plus does the
(40:53):
REBT or similar empowering,life-enhancing work that that
leads to living comfortably inone's own skin, that is
authentic empowerment.
Um so, but you know, anxiety, it, it, and I'm preaching to the
(41:14):
choir.
I said, you know, sodebilitating.
And and really I invite any ofyour listeners who haven't done
this yet, and to those who havedone it to do it again just
think about what's your attitudeto yourself and how you should
be in life, and my guess is thatin all probability, you're
(41:40):
being tougher on yourself thanyou are to your pet dog or cat,
if you have pets or people.
Why?
How tragic.
No one is more responsible forus than ourselves, except when
we're little helpless babies.
Except when we're littlehelpless babies.
(42:02):
And so that we could innocently, naively, unthinkingly, be so
cruel to ourselves?
Whoa.
So stop it, stop it.
Speaker 1 (42:14):
Have you ever seen the Bob Newhart?
Stop it sketch.
Okay, when we get done, I'mgoing to send that to you and
you will laugh.
Speaker 2 (42:21):
I predict that I will laugh.
Okay, when we get done, I'mgoing to send that to you and
you will laugh.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
I predict that I will laugh.
Yeah, very good.
Anyway, this is such a greatdiscussion, but we're kind of
running out of time.
We don't want to go too longand I don't want to take up the
rest of your day, or I wouldjust talk to you until the sun
goes down, which it kind ofalready is over here.
Speaker 2 (42:36):
You know I've got an hour more sunlight.
You can talk some more, Drew,or we can meet again.
Speaker 1 (42:41):
Yeah, maybe we'll have a part two of this.
There's so much to cover.
That's so great You're sogenerous with your time.
I appreciate that.
My pleasure, my pleasure.
So I will come back and wrapthat up, dr Debbie, thank you so
much.
You've been so lovely and Icannot wait to have you back on.
Speaker 2 (42:54):
Thank you Such a pleasure and I truly hope that
some of the things that you andI talked about can touch a
person's mind and heart and, ifnothing else, they'd be easier
on themselves every day.
I look forward to our next chat.
Speaker 1 (43:14):
You're very welcome, thanks for coming and we are
back.
Well, that was a thrill for mebecause having Dr Jaffe Ellis Dr
Debbie on the podcast was areal get for me.
Like I really admire her workand I feel like it's such a
privilege and an honor for me toget to talk to people of that
stature in the field.
I learned a lot from them.
I learned a lot today aboutREBT that I didn't know before
(43:36):
Dr Debbie came on, and hopefullyyou guys picked up a bunch of
goodies as well.
If you would like to know moreabout Dr Debbie and REBT and the
work that she does, I will puta link to her website in the
podcast notes.
If you're listening as apodcast in your app on YouTube,
I'll put them in the videodescription or you can go to get
the full show notes for thisepisode to my website at
theanxioustruthcom, slash 306.
(43:58):
That will get you the notes forthis episode and links to
wherever Dr Debbie happens to beon the internet.
So that is it.
Hopefully this was as useful toyou as it was fun for me.
We will be back again in twoweeks with another episode of
the Anxious Truth.
I don't know what it's going tobe about, but it will be here.
And if you kind of really digwhat you got here today and
you're watching on YouTube,maybe subscribe to the channel,
(44:20):
like the video, leave a commentI promise I will get back into
the comment section as soon as Ican when time allows and, of
course, if you're listening as apodcast on Apple Podcasts or
Spotify or whatever platformlets you write a review or leave
a rating, maybe leave aFirestar rating if you really
like the podcast and if youreally dig it and you're getting
something out of it, maybe takea minute or two and write a
review and tell people why youlike it, because then more
(44:41):
people find the podcast or theYouTube channel and then more
people get help and they get theinformation, like Dr Debbie was
kind enough to share with ustoday.
And remember, as I sign off, Iwill remind you, as I try to
every week, that no matter whatyou do today that moves you away
from fear-based decisions andcloser to decisions that are
more in align with your valuesand the life that you actually
(45:02):
want to live, if you can testthe borders of what you think
you can handle in terms ofanxiety, fear, discomfort, that
sort of thing.
Any little step you take todayin that direction counts.
They are additive.
You learn from them.
Every recovery starts with thetiniest little step, so it's
okay to start small if you haveto.
That counts too.
I'll cheer for you while you doit.
(45:23):
I'll see you in two weeks.
Thanks for coming by.
See you next time.
Hey there, welcome to episode 306 of the Anxious
Truth.
This is the podcast where wecover all things anxiety,
anxiety disorders and anxietyrecovery.
Now, today we do not have anymusic, we don't have any fancy
intro or outro, but we do have aconversation about rational
emotive behavior therapy, rebt.
Rebt, I kid you not, is the OGof modern cognitive behavioral
(00:23):
therapies.
It was created and introducedto the world by Dr Albert Ellis
back in the 1950s and 1960s.
He really led the way in moderncognitive behavioral therapies
and REBT has been in widespreaduse ever since.
It's an empirically supportedtherapy.
There's a lot of data andresearch behind it and today we
have a very special guest tojoin us to talk about REBT.
(00:44):
Her name is Dr Debbie JaffeEllis, otherwise known as Dr
Debbie, and while she does havethe same last name and was in
fact married to Dr Ellis, shewas his collaborator at the tail
end of his career.
But her work stands on its own.
She is more than just the wifeof the late Dr Ellis, but she
was his partner, hiscollaborator, and she is a bit
of a legend in therapy andcounseling herself.
(01:06):
So Dr Debbie was kind enough totake some time to talk to us
today about REBT.
We're going to talk about itsorigin stories, its nuances, its
unique features, how it mightbe applied in the context of
treating anxiety disorders.
I had a great time talking toher.
She is a lovely individual,very friendly, very open, very
kind, very willing to share andeducate.
It was really good.
Before we get to the interview,just a quick reminder that the
(01:29):
Anxious Truth is more than justthis video or this podcast
episode.
There are a ton more resourcesthat you can find on my website
at theanxioustruthcom.
Go check it out if you're soinclined.
Let's get Dr Debbie on.
I hope you guys enjoy this.
I'll come back at the end towrap it up, dr Debbie.
Dr Debbie Jaffe Ellis, welcome.
Thank you so much for takingthe time to hang out today for a
(01:50):
little while.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
It is my pleasure, on this cloudy Manhattan day, to
hang out with you, drew, andenjoy talking about whatever
we're going to talk about.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
We are going to wing it.
Now you guys know me enough toknow that I often wing it, and
Dr Debbie was clearly my people.
She's like, yeah, let's totallywing it and I'm like this is
what we're going to do.
So before we get started, youknow we were talking before I
hit the record button about theaudience with this podcast is
predominantly people dealingwith anxiety disorders.
So give us the Reader's Digestversion or not.
(02:25):
Talk as long as you want, Idon't care if you take up the
whole episode, I'm just going tolisten.
Within the framework of REBTrational emotive behavioral
therapy how would you approachthings like panic disorder,
agoraphobia, ocd, gad?
You know the usual suspects.
What does REBT have to tell usabout those particular struggles
and how do you approach them?
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Yeah, REBT can be very helpful.
Now, depending on the degree ofthe impact of whichever of
those emotions that youmentioned, it may take a longer
or shorter time to noticesignificant change, to notice
significant change With ongoingeffort applying.
(03:06):
What I'm about to describe,it's a biological, scientific
fact that change is probable ifa person persists.
So what am I talking about?
So, Drew, I'm not familiar withwhether your listeners are
familiar with the principles ofREBT.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
Well, my listeners generally understand what CBT is
, but I've never really giventhe difference and the fact that
REBT predates CBT.
So yeah, let's do a littlebackground on what it really is.
That would be great.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Okay, my pleasure.
So REBT Rational EmotiveBehavior Therapy created by my
late, brilliant, amazing husband, dr Albert Ellis, heralded in
the cognitive revolution inpsychotherapy.
He was trained to be apsychoanalyst a la Freud,
(03:59):
because when he was at collegethere really wasn't any choice
there was Freud, there was earlybehaviorism.
Anyway, he was an excellentpsychoanalyst but he felt
impatient with it because henoticed that many of the people
he worked with felt better aftera session and there could be
insights.
They weren't getting better,they weren't proactively making
(04:24):
effort to change whateverthinking and behavior was
contributing to disablingemotions or disturbances.
And so, bit by bit and we don'thave time for me to go into the
whole history, but he createdREBT.
Now he was a mentor and a helpand an inspiration to Dr Aaron
(04:47):
Beck, who's considered thefather of CBT.
Cbt came out 15 years afterREBT.
So I'm really glad, for anyonewho's interested in accurate
historical chronology, that REBTwas the pioneering cognitive
approach.
So there's the background.
A few little bits about itbefore I answer your first
(05:11):
question about anxiety and panicand so forth.
So one of the main principlesof REBT and I love it because
it's so empowering and if aperson certainly is not
cognitively impaired, but ifthey are not and have the
willingness to make change inorder to create less misery and
(05:36):
experience more joy in life, inlife that will contain, in all
probability, challenges and lossand some pain healthy pain of
loss and so forth but one of thetragedies, I believe, of so
many humans is they're not awareand here's the point I'm
(05:57):
leading to, the first basicelement of REBT that it's not
circumstances that create ouremotions, but the way we
perceive the circumstances, howwe think about them, our beliefs
about them.
And if we think in irrationalways about happenings that we
(06:20):
don't want, some that may bebrutal and tragic or not getting
what we do want, when we thinkin irrational ways, we create
what REBT calls unhealthy,negative emotions.
Negative, not because they'rebad, but they're not so pleasant
, and they include anxiety,extreme fear, panic,
(06:44):
hopelessness, despondency,depression, rage, guilt and
shame.
Now, their healthy counterparts, which we create when we think
in healthy ways, are concerninstead of panic, fear and
anxiety.
It's healthy to have thatlittle adrenaline, boosting
(07:06):
motivation to move our tushesand get things done and so forth
or to attend to certain things.
So concern is healthy.
Anxiety, panic, fear,debilitating when we think in
rational ways, instead ofdespondency and depression,
healthy grief, sadness,disappointment, instead of rage,
(07:30):
that moral anger.
We're still in control.
We don't react.
We choose as best as we humanlycan to respond when we receive
or observe immoral, unethicalbehaviour or situations.
And finally, instead of guiltand shame, which often are
(07:52):
present when a person is notexperiencing meaning in life and
is hopeless, and often presentin people who attempt suicide,
we experience and create regret,which is another, like healthy
anger, emotion connected to ourinner moral compass.
(08:14):
So, very quickly getting toanswer your question about
anxiety, panic and fear, whatare the irrational ways of
thinking that would createanxiety and other unhealthy,
negative emotions?
We have demands, we haveshoulds, we have musts, very
(08:36):
rigid thinking, and a few of thecommon ones are I must do well
and be liked loved, approved ofby everyone.
Now, when someone holds that,little wonder that they create
anxiety if someone looks at themcross-eyed or with a
disapproving face, or if they'rerejected or abandoned because
(08:59):
they have this underlyingirrational belief that they must
be approved of or it's awful,or it proves they're worthless
or, worse, makes sense In myaudience just to interject a
little bit.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
we see that the must is always I must only be calm or
I must not feel these feelingsto be okay.
That's the predominant mustamong the people who are
listening to you right now.
I would say yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
It sounds like the belief behind those beliefs.
I must not be me, I must not behuman.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
I must not be fallible.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
I must not be fallible If I'm not acting as I
should.
I must not be compassionate andgentle of myself in ways I
probably easily am with others.
Yeah, aren't we cruel toourselves when we're not
thinking things through?
Speaker 1 (10:01):
Yeah, it's amazing, I think, the amount of
self-criticism that comes out.
I'm failing because I'm anxious.
I'm failing because I can'tcontrol this very human
experience that was never meantto be controlled.
So yeah, I hear you.
Does that speak a little bit tothe rationality how REBT sort
of defines rational?
Who decides what's rational ornot?
I'm sure people are wonderingWell, who decided that?
(10:23):
Did Albert Ellis decide whatwas rational or not?
Speaker 2 (10:24):
people, I'm sure people are wondering well, who
decided that?
Did albert ellis decide whatwas rational?
No, but he really verysuccinctly described some of the
main elements, which include,coming to what you were saying
drew unconditionalself-acceptance that every human
has worth simply because weexist.
(10:45):
We may do some bad things, someshitty things.
It doesn't make us a bad person, akin to excrement.
We may do some saintly things.
It doesn't make us a goodperson.
It makes us a person who's donesome good things.
So each human.
This is inherent in REBT and inother philosophies, by the way,
(11:07):
but I'm here as the REBT queen,or whatever you want to call it
queen for the day.
So, yeah, that I mean.
I ask listeners, ask yourselves, how comfortable do I allow
myself to be in my own skin?
(11:29):
How much effort, if any, am Imaking to embrace my fallibility
?
And even when I'm creating anunhealthy emotion, is that a
reason that I have less worth orto put myself down?
My response to that, and yoursI'm sure, drew, is no, yeah,
(12:11):
that's true.
So one of the elements ofirrational might be just to give
listeners and viewers anopportunity to reflect on
whether they think in any ofthese ways I mentioned.
I must always do perfectly well, you and you can be an
individual or a group or areligion or a political party.
(12:31):
Gee, any political stuff goingon right now?
No, no, no, don't know why.
I thought of that country.
So you must act the way I thinkyou should.
You must believe the way Ithink you should believe.
You must believe what I believe.
You must treat me the way Ithink you should.
(12:51):
You know that belief is at theheart.
On a milder scale though, it'snot necessarily mild
relationship breakups, but on aglobal scale, that belief you
should be the way I think youshould is at the root of
terrorism and war and hatred.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
Yeah, yeah, you should be the way I need you to
be, or I want you to be.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
I insist that you be, or else it proves that you're
not worthy, or worse.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Do you ever find that that's a difficult?
And it's interesting becausethere's a bent in REBT that I
really identify with and becauseit's an acknowledgement of the
reality of the way the world andpeople are, which is really
important, I think, as in partof RBT, at least the way I see
it and so there's almost anirrationality.
The next, the third thing thatI might think would be
(13:44):
irrational in that frameworkwould be I am refusing to
acknowledge the reality of theworld as it just is.
People sometimes aren't like us, or I do make mistakes or I do
have bad feelings.
Yeah, this is the way.
Have bad feelings.
Yeah, this is the way life issometimes.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Yeah, yeah, I would say the attitude that's
encouraged through REBT orcommon sense wisdom is the
benefit of adopting an attitudeof realistic optimism.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
Oh, that's really good.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Yeah, so optimism because, damn it, where there's
life, there is hope, unless one,literally, is in pain almost
24-7, you know, and quality oflife is not good and there's
really no biological indicationthat things will get better.
(14:37):
But for that, and if someone iscognitively impaired and unable
to be, you know, if there's apsychosis, or not able to
understand the principles thatwe're talking about and they're
not complicated but for thoseinstances there are enough
(14:57):
examples that where there's life, there is hope that things can
get better.
Oh, the other group of peoplethat doesn't apply to and I'm
(15:26):
not meaning to sound people whoare listening to us are alive.
We're talking, I hope we'retalking to them.
Yeah, I hope we're talking tothem.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
Yeah, but I'm not that good.
I'm not reaching the deceased.
I've got a big audience, butthey're all alive.
That's true.
Well, as far as you know, asfar as I know at least, I don't
know If there's any zombieslistening shoot me an email yeah
.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Unusual life forms, but apart from that, so reality
based, definitely.
And in fact, one of the thingsthat rebt encourages us to do,
if we are determined to sufferless and enjoy life more, is to
identify those self-defeatingbeliefs and dispute the guts out
(16:15):
of them.
And one of the ways we disputeis through asking questions.
And one of the questions iswhere is the evidence?
Again, reality-based?
Oh, I'm telling myself, I haveno worth, I don't deserve to
exist.
Where's the evidence?
Oh, I failed at this.
(16:36):
How does it follow that if youfail at something, you have no
worth?
You know this kind ofquestioning and questioning.
How's it logical?
Where is it getting me or youor us, to think in these ways?
And we question the irrationalbeliefs and, as a result of that
, new realistic truths emerge.
(16:57):
Well, I may not be perfect, butI have a right to exist.
You know, it depends on whatthe issue is who the person is.
I have worth simply because Iam.
I like the approval of others,but I don't need it.
(17:17):
Your opinion of me is none ofmy business.
That's Eleanor Roosevelt.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
Yeah, I always love that one.
You know, one of those in thisaudience that you're addressing
today might be I can't handleextreme anxiety, but you always
do.
I just don't like it, but youdo handle it.
So where is the?
The one of the things you saidearlier was really great like
there's a high likelihood ofchange.
I mean, I might argue thatchange is going to happen no
matter what you do, because wechange.
(17:44):
The world is not, people arenot static, the world is not,
universe is not static.
So where's the?
Where's the agent of change?
So if you, as the helper, I'm,I'm your client and you're the
therapist, no, hope for you.
No hope for me.
Clearly, everybody knows this,but I tell you Someone else.
No, it's fine, I can't handlethis.
(18:06):
Your challenge to me might bewell, where's the evidence for
that?
Yeah, now does the change come,just because you told me that
my thought was irrational.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
No, your change has very little to do with what I'm
going to tell you and everythingto do with the effort that
you're going to make.
And so the change will comethrough repetition, repetition,
repetition.
There's this field calledneuroplasticity that has proven
that with repetition, be itbehaviors, physical behaviors or
(18:44):
thoughts new neural pathwaysare formed in the brain, and not
just when we're kids, you know,when we're adults.
Unless there's some neuropathyor sorry, neurobiological reason
, it's not too late.
And so through repetition,neuroplasticity is found that it
(19:06):
takes at least 30 days For somepeople it might be more, for
some people it may not be moreFor new neural pathways, new
habitual ways of thinking to beformed in the brain.
So the key is identify the toxicthoughts, dispute the guts out
of them, because if we don'tbelieve them they're less likely
(19:28):
to come up.
Now, habitually they may stillfor a while, in which case we
keep disputing.
But as time goes on, what's notcredible because we disputed it
, we saw there was no truth init is less likely to come up.
And then, the more we repeatthe healthy, new rational
(19:48):
recognitions you know, put it onyour phone, post it all over
the place, remind yourself, putit, record it and listen to it a
few times each.
I have worth because I exist.
I honor my fallibility.
I embrace being human, whateverit is.
Where is it written that?
(20:10):
And repetition Therein lieschange.
No, not what I say to anyone.
Hopefully that triggers anawareness.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
But then repetition, repetition and notice the change
over time, it also might informa different action.
So if I'm stuck in maladaptive,avoidant behavioral patterns
that are based on my irrationalthoughts, hey, dr Debbie might
(20:40):
give me a reason to at leastconsider that maybe that belief
isn't correct and I can act indifferent ways.
Would you use that as part ofthe framework?
Speaker 2 (20:50):
Certainly, you know, whatever helps, whatever helps
some people, it's the's theactions, for others it's the
thinking alone, for many, it'sboth and um and and.
To go back to what you broughtup a few minutes ago, drew um
when someone said oh, I forgetyour exact words, but along the
(21:12):
lines of I always make myselfanxious, or I can't stop being
anxious, I forget.
But along those lines I willimmediately say insert till now.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Really good right.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
Because the past does not need to dictate what the
future will be, unless we keepon doing what we've tended to do
.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
They're very practical sounding.
I mean, everybody listening, ifthey've hung around for a while
, this is all sounding veryfamiliar, right?
All this stuff seems to alignso nicely, and the idea that we
have agency here.
Yeah, that I love the practicalapplication here.
Like well, let me show you thatyou actually do have some power
here.
You are able to enact a change.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Only we can create our own change.
No one can do it for us.
Others can encourage, canencourage, guide, educate.
I think that they're roles thatyou and I love to enact, to be
to it.
But unless someone takes actionand works on themselves
(22:28):
steadily and consistently,change won't happen.
Now, sometimes a person willwork on themselves and there's
relapse.
Hello, human, not unusual.
So, as the song goes, I see theinstruments on your wall, pick
myself up, wipe myself down andstart all over again.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
Why do I feel like, if I'm your patient or client,
there's going to be singing atsome point?
I don't know why.
I was in a webinar that DrDibby did a couple of weeks ago
where you had everybody on theZoom trying to sing together.
That was great.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
Yeah.
Why do you think that wayBecause you have evidence and
maybe you also think I like totorture other people.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
Yeah, that must be what it is people.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
Yeah, that must be what it is.
Must you said must?
That's another thing I do.
I jump on people, notnecessarily literally but with
humor, when I say people,clients or students, um, to help
them be more aware of what canbe thoughtless, habitual lingo.
The must word, you know theshould.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
And one of the gifts of REBT and again, there are
other philosophies andapproaches who do this too, but
I'm talking about REBT is theencouragement to be more mindful
, to think about our thinkingand to choose our words.
Words do have power, you know,and very impactful, if not
(24:01):
consciously, subconsciously, andso I do it with humour but if
you're at one of my classes,like just yesterday at Columbia,
someone, one of my students,was talking and said must, and I
like must and it createslaughter.
But there's a point to that.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
Yeah, I kind of get that there's rigidity in must.
I guess two key words would bemust and should.
Right, I should, or I must, orI have to, I can't.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Yeah, and REBT asserts that one of the most
powerful ways and the good newsis it's not even difficult but
it requires consistent effortwhich is identify the shoulds
and musts, identify them, thendispute them, question them,
(24:51):
then replace them and repeat,repeat, repeat.
Not hard, but it's required tobe done if one sincerely is
motivated to change.
Now I say that because somepeople love blaming, others love
blaming life, are kind ofaddicted to being the victim and
(25:13):
the attention that can bring.
So if they're not motivated tochange, they might say well, I
hate being anxious, but if thepayoff in their minds is
maintaining unhealthy ways ofbeing and feeling in order to
get what they think are rewards,they probably won't change may
(25:35):
get to change.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
Oh, that's that principle of autonomy you get to
pick the path you want and weget to respect it, I guess.
But yeah, that's really great.
I love how you bring up theties to.
I think REBT is one of the mostphilosophical.
Yes, yeah, so you could draw astraight line back to the Stoics
and Taoism and Buddhism.
We suffer because we resist, wego with the way of the Tao, we
(25:58):
control what we can and leavethe rest behind.
You know, there's so muchphilosophy that I love so much.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
That's so true, al Albert Ellis.
Dr Albert Ellis, that's okay,we can call him Al yeah.
I was married to the guy.
I slept with the guy.
I didn't call him Dr Ellis, soI will call him.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
Al, we do not judge what people do in the privacy of
their own home or anything,just saying, oh, feel free to
judge.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
The judge is fantastic.
Anyway, he said yeah, so he wasliterally a genius, a speed
reader.
So he was literally a genius, aspeed reader, and as a child he
would borrow as many books ashis local library would allow
him to borrow and read them,return them, read overnight.
And he loved philosophy.
(26:51):
Certainly, and you mentionedthe Stoic philosophies and the
Eastern philosophies.
Definitely were influences andaspects, as he would acknowledge
are embedded in the REBTphilosophy and it's interesting
(27:12):
I have one of his books that waspublished in the 1800s.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Well, not one of his, but he didn't write it.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
No, he didn't write it, he owned it and it's by
Epictetus the Enchiridon.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
That's the manual of life.
It's right there, not the 1800sversion, the new version it's
on there.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
I'm not the 1800s version.
The new version is on my shelf.
Yeah, so the 1800 version isthere and you know, gold around
the board and beautiful, and theway Al would read books was he
would underline bits that weresignificant.
He would put crosses next toparts he didn't agree with and
checks next to parts that he did, and then he would underline
(27:58):
USA unconditionalself-acceptance when what he was
reading in the Terrigan or theTao or Buddhist works and works
by Lao Tzu, and yeah, so you'reright that elements of those
philosophies.
Now there are differences aswell.
(28:19):
Like with Eastern philosophies,there's a lot in common between
Tibetan Buddhism and REBT andactually the Dalai Lama, in one
of his books called the Art ofHappiness, acknowledges doctors
Ellis and Becks.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
That's the book.
There you go.
All right, so we both get to.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
Are we surrounded by the same library?
Speaker 1 (28:48):
We seem to be.
I haven't read too many booksabout Vikings, so I will admit
that Neither have I.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
Yeah, I think they probably did quite a bit of
shooting in their canoes.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
Probably it worked for them evidently so the Dalai
Lama was a fan, it sounds like,or he at least acknowledged the
work.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
Yes, and yes, on my husband's 80th sorry, 90, I
didn't know him when he was 80,but he was a lot older than me.
Just want to say, in caseanyone's wondering, I'm not 110
and this isn't great plasticsurgery.
I haven't had any plasticsurgery, but anyway.
(29:33):
No, the Dalai Lama sent Al awhite silk scarf that he had
blessed and Al was actually Al,and I had arranged to go visit
him one weekend.
His late brother had a temple,I think, in I want to say Iowa
(29:59):
or Idaho, somewhere startingwith an I, and we had planned to
go.
The Dalai Lama was there, andthe night before the journey my
husband was seriously ill, likehe nearly lost his life, so we
couldn't make it, but we wereplanning to go.
(30:20):
They had much in common.
Um, both of them and and theysaid this in different times um
love to explore things.
When our kids would pull clocksand toys apart in order to
figure out how they worked andput them together again, both of
them chose to work on atendency to be angry and
(30:43):
impatient.
Even the masters make effort ifthey're human.
That's the way it goes right.
And both of them, like TibetanBuddhism and REBT, embrace this
attitude of unconditional otheracceptance, where one can detest
(31:04):
brutal behaviour but not detestthe person doing it or hate
them or dislike them intensely.
And so, in the case of theDalai Lama, he said, whilst he's
against the policies of theChinese government, he doesn't
(31:25):
hate Chinese people.
And my husband, sadly, at theend of his life, in the final
years, his institute kind offired him and kicked him out for
no good reasons.
And there was a lot ofpublicity at the time because my
husband was an icon, deservedly, and New York Times and New
(31:45):
York and there were articles andso forth, and I think it was
the New York Times or the NewYorker magazine.
One of the articles quoted myhusband as saying I hate what
they're doing.
They, the certain directors ofthe institute that had kicked
him out and wanted to change themission statement Hate what
they're doing.
(32:06):
Al said but I don't hate themand that was true.
I mean it wasn't just themaster wanting to sound
authentic, he was authentic.
He didn't hate them.
He even had compassion on theirlimited ways of thinking that
and their ambition, theirselfish in some ways, ambition
(32:26):
that drove them to do some ofthe actions that they did.
So yeah, Al and the Dalai Lamahad many things in common.
But I was going to say some ofthe things that are different.
Really briefly, the, theabsolutism in some tibetan
buddhist encouragements, suchstrive for perfection reach the
(32:48):
state of nirvana.
So al would say he wasskeptical that that was possible
.
Perfection, striving forexcellence, you know, but?
But it could be self-defeatingand even harmful for a person to
think they should attain aparticular state that may
realistically not be possible.
(33:11):
Strive for excellence, yes.
Strive to be perfect, uh,what's the line?
Anxiety you know from.
I must be perfect and if I'mnot, hello.
Anxiety.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
Yeah, especially for the folks struggling with GAD,
that's a big component.
Oftentimes it's interestingbecause and I'm a fan, I'm not
picking anybody here, but if welook at things like
mindfulness-based stressreduction and Jon Kabat-Zinn,
who often gets and he deservesall the credit he gets for sure
Well, he westernized, he made itwestern accessible, some of
those eastern philosophies, butI might argue that he wasn't the
(33:47):
first one to do that.
You know I, because thatlanguage, the omission of the
absolute achievement which, yeah, in western culture would get
gripped onto as evidence of mythat's how I know I'm doing
better when I achieve you got todrop that in our culture, I
think.
So that was brilliant to leavethat out.
Now I'm just like fanboyinghere, that's so.
(34:10):
Yeah, somehow we veered intojust like a chat that I'm
enjoying.
I don't know if you guys areenjoying it, but, um, I think
one of the cool things is whenyou look at the example that the
Dalai Lama sets, that yourhusband set, that these people
set.
What it says again and againand again is I have a choice, I
have agency, even in difficultsituations because life is going
(34:32):
to hand them to me.
I have some agency in what I dowith that.
I don't like what they're doingto me, but I don't hate them,
boy.
There's such power in that, andthat's applicable to people
with anxiety disorders maybe notdirectly, but it's.
That idea is applicable.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
Yeah, and Drew, as you kind of touched on earlier,
and then we got on anotherstream or a related stream.
But a lot of people might thinkthat it's not easy.
How do I unconditionally acceptsomeone who's done rotten
things to me, who's really actedin brutal ways, and the people
(35:17):
who are willing to accept thefact that hanging on to their
toxic anger about the wrongdoeror their resentment, bitterness
and what I'm about to say is aphrase that my husband created
(35:38):
but it's now part of everydaylingo.
So hanging on to that is likeeating poison and waiting for
the other person to die.
It's not going to hurt them,but it can literally shorten
one's life.
So how does one achieve that?
You know, look at murderers,rapists and so forth especially
if they've impacted onepersonally and unconditionally
(35:59):
accept them.
Well, first of all, it'simportant to realise that
unconditionally acceptinganother person doesn't mean you
unconditionally accept theirrotten behaviour, and REBT would
certainly encourage seekingjustice when possible, but from
a state of stability rather thanrage.
(36:20):
And so when someone earnestlyrecognises that they've been
holding onto this toxic emotionand it's hurting them and they
don't want to, but they don'tknow how to drop it, I invite
them to consider the followingthat again, it requires one
(36:42):
wanting to change.
So the evildoer and hear what Isay, I didn't say the evil
person, but it's a person whodid some evil things in that
instance or instances.
That person was once a baby too,once a helpless little piece of
(37:06):
biological life as well, justas any one of us was.
But I ask a person to considerif any one of us had their
biology, their neurobiological,chemical makeup, their genetic
predispositions, if any one ofus was brought up the way that
(37:29):
they were brought up and gotsome toxic, negative, hateful
messages, were indoctrinated,subtly or overtly, to believe
they're worthless and uselessand had some kind of bad
influence in puberty, teenageyears, adult years, if any one
(37:50):
of us was thinking what theywere thinking when they did the
evil actions, isn't it possiblethat we would do a similar or
the same thing?
And I think if one isruthlessly honest one would say
yeah, it is likely, and that canallow us to be grateful for the
(38:28):
fact that we may not have donea bad thing, to distinguish
between that bad thing and thefact that where there's life
there's hope.
We can work on not repeatingdoing that bad thing.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
Yeah, I love all this .
So much of that would almostimply then, if I'm going to
adopt unconditional otheracceptance or unconditional
self-acceptance, I'm going toforgive myself for the thing
that causes me so much guilt.
Because we do see, even thoughthis is not necessarily anxiety
disorder territory, you know, Idon't have to tell you, you've
been at this longer than I havethat stuff often enters the chat
(38:56):
anyway.
There's not just panic attacks,there's other stuff that could
be so helpful.
But it implies you may have tojust learn how to be with
uncomfortable feelings.
Sometimes I'm so angry at thisperson for what they did for me,
to me.
But if I'm going to move pastthat, I'm going to have to learn
(39:17):
how to be with that anger andlet it work itself out in a
healthy way instead of hangingon to it as rage.
And that's tough work.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
Yeah, but oh, it's so worthwhile.
So, anger about anger that'scalled like a secondary emotion
or anxiety about anxiety.
Oh, I'll never get over myanxiety.
I've gone to therapy for threeweeks and I'm still anxious.
So the way to handle thatsecondary anxiety or unhealthy
(39:45):
emotion is to deal with it first, before going back to the
primary, by normalising it.
It's not unusual, it's common.
It can take time and toencourage, as you said, that
unconditional self-acceptanceI'm fallible, I have flaws.
I've been doing this a longtime, believing this a long time
(40:06):
.
It will take time.
I can make effort, bit by bit.
If I relapse, I can pick up andjust self-nurturing,
self-encouragement, and thatoften can lessen or remove the
anxiety about the anxiety.
And then we can get to the rootthoughts behind the anxiety.
(40:27):
Now, not to ignore, some peoplehave an endogenous
predisposition and sometimesmedication helps.
But sometimes medication is notnecessary and just ongoing
effort.
And, by the way, medicationalone is not empowering.
It can bring a kind ofstability.
But if a person benefits fromcertain medication plus does the
(40:53):
REBT or similar empowering,life-enhancing work that that
leads to living comfortably inone's own skin, that is
authentic empowerment.
Um so, but you know, anxiety, it, it, and I'm preaching to the
(41:14):
choir.
I said, you know, sodebilitating.
And and really I invite any ofyour listeners who haven't done
this yet, and to those who havedone it to do it again just
think about what's your attitudeto yourself and how you should
be in life, and my guess is thatin all probability, you're
(41:40):
being tougher on yourself thanyou are to your pet dog or cat,
if you have pets or people.
Why?
How tragic.
No one is more responsible forus than ourselves, except when
we're little helpless babies.
Except when we're littlehelpless babies.
(42:02):
And so that we could innocently, naively, unthinkingly, be so
cruel to ourselves?
Whoa.
So stop it, stop it.
Speaker 1 (42:14):
Have you ever seen the Bob Newhart?
Stop it sketch.
Okay, when we get done, I'mgoing to send that to you and
you will laugh.
Speaker 2 (42:21):
I predict that I will laugh.
Okay, when we get done, I'mgoing to send that to you and
you will laugh.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
I predict that I will laugh.
Yeah, very good.
Anyway, this is such a greatdiscussion, but we're kind of
running out of time.
We don't want to go too longand I don't want to take up the
rest of your day, or I wouldjust talk to you until the sun
goes down, which it kind ofalready is over here.
Speaker 2 (42:36):
You know I've got an hour more sunlight.
You can talk some more, Drew,or we can meet again.
Speaker 1 (42:41):
Yeah, maybe we'll have a part two of this.
There's so much to cover.
That's so great You're sogenerous with your time.
I appreciate that.
My pleasure, my pleasure.
So I will come back and wrapthat up, dr Debbie, thank you so
much.
You've been so lovely and Icannot wait to have you back on.
Speaker 2 (42:54):
Thank you Such a pleasure and I truly hope that
some of the things that you andI talked about can touch a
person's mind and heart and, ifnothing else, they'd be easier
on themselves every day.
I look forward to our next chat.
Speaker 1 (43:14):
You're very welcome, thanks for coming and we are
back.
Well, that was a thrill for mebecause having Dr Jaffe Ellis Dr
Debbie on the podcast was areal get for me.
Like I really admire her workand I feel like it's such a
privilege and an honor for me toget to talk to people of that
stature in the field.
I learned a lot from them.
I learned a lot today aboutREBT that I didn't know before
(43:36):
Dr Debbie came on, and hopefullyyou guys picked up a bunch of
goodies as well.
If you would like to know moreabout Dr Debbie and REBT and the
work that she does, I will puta link to her website in the
podcast notes.
If you're listening as apodcast in your app on YouTube,
I'll put them in the videodescription or you can go to get
the full show notes for thisepisode to my website at
theanxioustruthcom, slash 306.
(43:58):
That will get you the notes forthis episode and links to
wherever Dr Debbie happens to beon the internet.
So that is it.
Hopefully this was as useful toyou as it was fun for me.
We will be back again in twoweeks with another episode of
the Anxious Truth.
I don't know what it's going tobe about, but it will be here.
And if you kind of really digwhat you got here today and
you're watching on YouTube,maybe subscribe to the channel,
(44:20):
like the video, leave a commentI promise I will get back into
the comment section as soon as Ican when time allows and, of
course, if you're listening as apodcast on Apple Podcasts or
Spotify or whatever platformlets you write a review or leave
a rating, maybe leave aFirestar rating if you really
like the podcast and if youreally dig it and you're getting
something out of it, maybe takea minute or two and write a
review and tell people why youlike it, because then more
(44:41):
people find the podcast or theYouTube channel and then more
people get help and they get theinformation, like Dr Debbie was
kind enough to share with ustoday.
And remember, as I sign off, Iwill remind you, as I try to
every week, that no matter whatyou do today that moves you away
from fear-based decisions andcloser to decisions that are
more in align with your valuesand the life that you actually
(45:02):
want to live, if you can testthe borders of what you think
you can handle in terms ofanxiety, fear, discomfort, that
sort of thing.
Any little step you take todayin that direction counts.
They are additive.
You learn from them.
Every recovery starts with thetiniest little step, so it's
okay to start small if you haveto.
That counts too.
I'll cheer for you while you doit.
(45:23):
I'll see you in two weeks.
Thanks for coming by.
See you next time.
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