July 16, 2025 • 21 mins
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This week on The Anxious Truth, we're talking about what happens when a problem solving mind sees itself as a problem to solve.
Your mind is an incredible problem-solving machine - it's what sets humans apart and has helped us thrive for thousands of years. But when that same problem-solving ability turns inward and starts trying to "fix" your own thoughts, emotions, and internal experiences, things can go very wrong very quickly.
If you're stuck in cycles of overthinking, constantly trying to figure out your anxiety, or exhausting yourself attempting to solve feelings that aren't meant to be solved, this episode is for you. We'll explore how the same mental abilities that help us navigate the world can trap us when they're aimed at our own internal experiences.
TIMESTAMPS:
00:00 Introduction - When problem solving becomes the problem
01:54 How the mind forms relationships and connections between experiences
03:09 When problem solving leads to anxiety, overthinking, and control issues
04:26 What happens when problem solving turns inward on our feelings
06:47 The spectacular failure of trying to solve internal experiences
09:02 Understanding the Cognitive Attentional Syndrome (CAS)
10:42 Experiential avoidance and the cost of feeling better now
12:58 How fear generalizes through mental connections
14:58 Shifting from content focus to process awareness
16:09 Real examples: panic responses vs. healthier approaches to triggers
18:03 Practical principles for recognizing when problem solving goes wrong
19:29 Moving toward values while feeling uncomfortable - psychological flexibility
Key takeaway: Your thoughts and emotions are experiences to have, not problems to solve.
Whether you're dealing with panic disorder, agoraphobia, OCD, health anxiety, or generalized anxiety, learning to recognize when your problem-solving mind is making things worse can be a crucial step in your recovery journey.
This episode explores evidence-based concepts from Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) and Metacognitive Therapy in accessible, practical terms. Remember: recovery isn't about finding quick fixes or magical solutions - it's about learning to relate differently to your internal experiences.
Resources mentioned:
If you found this episode helpful, please leave a rating and review - it helps other people find the podcast and get the help they need.
Support The Anxious Truth: If you find the podcast helpful and want to support my work, you can buy me a coffee. Other ways to support my work like buying a book or signing up for a low cost workshop can be found on my website. None of this is never required, but always appreciated!
Interested in doing therapy with me? For more information on working with me directly to overcome your anxiety, follow this link.
Disclaimer: The Anxious Truth is not therapy or a replacement for therapy. Listening to The Anxious Truth does not create a therapeutic relationship between you and the host or guests of the podcast. Information here is provided for psychoeducational purposes. As always, when you have questions about your own well-being, please consult your mental health and/or medical care providers. If you are having a mental health crisis, always reach out immediately for in-person help.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
This week on the Anxious Truth, we're talking
about what happens when aproblem-solving mind sees itself
as a problem to solve.
So let's get at it.
Hello everybody, welcome backto the Anxious Truth.
This is episode 321 of thepodcast we're recording in July
of 2025.
If you're listening in thefuture, this is the quick and
(00:22):
dirty edition of the AnxiousTruth, because I have jury duty
this week and no time to edit.
So this week we're talkingabout what happens specifically
the struggle, the bad thingsthat happen when an anxious mind
that's also a problem-solvingmind turns on itself and sees
itself as a problem to solve.
Before we do that, just a quickintroduction.
If you're new to the AnxiousTruth your first time here I
(00:42):
hope you find it helpful.
I'm Drew Linsalata, the creatorand host of this podcast.
I'm a therapist specializing inthe treatment of anxiety and
anxiety disorders, practicing inNew York.
I'm also a former sufferer ofthe very problems that I talk
about on this podcast, but muchbetter now Three-time author on
this topic.
Clearly, a podcaster got withan expensive microphone, social
media dude, advocate,psychoeducator, all of the
(01:04):
things, and I'm glad that you'rehere.
I hope you find this episodehelpful and, if you do, maybe
check out other episodes of thepodcast.
You might find them helpful tooif you're struggling with
anxiety issues.
Of course, if you're areturning listener, welcome back
.
I appreciate you being hereToday.
We are going to talk about whathappens when a problem-solving
mind which is all human mindsgets into an anxious state, then
turns on itself and startstrying to solve itself, or your
(01:26):
own internal experiences, whichlies at the heart of most every
anxiety disorder.
Before we get into that, just aquick reminder that the Anxious
Truth is more than just thispodcast episode.
There are a ton of excellentresources, many of which are
free on my website attheanxioustruthcom.
So if you get a chance, gocheck that out.
Avail yourself of all thegoodies.
Everybody seems to enjoy themand find them helpful.
(01:47):
Hopefully you will too.
So check it out attheanxioustruthcom.
So let's get into today's topic.
Okay, we need to talk about athing.
We need to talk about how oneof the coolest things about a
human mind is its ability toform relationships and make
connections between anything andanything else in any possible
(02:07):
way.
It's insane.
It's really good at that andthat's a really useful thing.
We can form relationships andconnections between any part of
our experience external andinternal and any other part of
our experience, internal andexternal, in any way, shape or
form.
It's practically an infinitenumber of combinations and it's
(02:28):
what sets us apart fromeverything else walking the
planet or swimming in the oceansor flying above our heads.
This relation connection-makingmachine is active all the time,
whenever we're awake.
It's probably active when we'renot awake I'd have to look into
that and it has proven to besuper useful to human beings
over time.
It's the only reason why youcan understand the words that
(02:48):
I'm saying to you right now orhave a conversation with your
best friend or play your role inhumans dominating and changing
the planet the way we do andhave been for thousands of years
since we developed this ability, which is kind of symbolic and
relational thinking that led tolanguage and all kinds of other
things.
This serves us very well.
Until it doesn't, it's supercool, until it's not.
(03:15):
This relation-making,connection-making ability leads
to problem-solving abilitybecause we have the ability to
decide whether things are goodor bad, or we like them or don't
like them, or want them ordon't want them.
We can compare different states.
We can compare the don't wantthem.
We can compare different states.
We can compare the past and thepresent.
We can compare the past and thefuture.
We can compare the present andthe future.
We can do this all day long andthis becomes a problem because
(03:35):
it leads to problem solving.
You know that the problemsolving mechanism has itself
become a problem.
When you start to hear somebodyuse words and phrases like
anxious or overthinking orobsessed or the ever-popular
control freak, when you hearsomebody tell you that they are
a control freak or that theymust know and they can't
tolerate uncertainty, you arewatching the problem-solving,
relation-making,connection-making machine in
(03:58):
overdrive and jumping off therails.
If you are feeling perpetuallyanxious, if you feel like you're
falling victim to overthinking,if you feel that you're
perpetually hyper fixated onproblems that probably aren't
really even problems andsolutions that are nowhere to be
found, and you're starting tofeel frustrated or disheartened
or exhausted as a result,there's a really good chance
(04:18):
that your relation-making,connection-making,
problem-solving machine has nowbecome a problem.
And I'll tell you why makingproblem solving machine has now
become a problem and I'll tellyou why.
This machinery that we havebetween our ears is able to
judge and compare and evaluateand decide and then fix.
Fixing is a really broad term.
It shows up in various ways,cognitively and behaviorally.
But for today let's just sortof stick with the basics and a
(04:41):
simplistic explanation.
Humans love to figure out andthen fix or control anything
they deem not appealing.
That's a good place to start,because that gets us into
trouble.
Hell, we even problem solve thegood stuff.
This is why we have phrases inour language like if it ain't
broke, don't fix it, becausesometimes we have to remind
ourselves that things are goodand we make them worse when we
(05:02):
try to make them gooder.
That comparison and relationbuilding mechanism in our minds
lets us take something that'sgood or even great and try to
figure out ways to make it evenbetter.
We don't know how to stay in agood moment.
We only know how to try to getmore good moments or make a good
moment even better, and weoften wind up ruining it as a
result.
So in that way, thatproblem-solving, relation-making
(05:25):
, connection-making, comparisonmachine really gets us into
trouble.
But that is a story for anotherpodcast episode.
For now let's return to whathappens when the problem-solving
is turned inward.
So, by way of reference, lastweek on my Substack, I wrote a
lengthy article about our desireto control things that we
really can't control and how wework even harder to control them
when we discover that that'simpossible.
(05:47):
If you want to check out thatarticle, that's on my sub stack.
I'll put a link on the screen,or the video description or the
podcast description.
You can go check that out.
In a nutshell, we wind up tryingreally hard to know what we
cannot know, be certain aboutwhat is uncertain, solve what
cannot be solved and controlwhat is absolutely
uncontrollable.
And even when we recognize thatthere's no point in trying
(06:09):
those things, we often doubledown and try even harder and it
really gets us into trouble.
We try to control and fix andknow and be certain and figure
out and then we can't and we areleft feeling bad.
We do not like feeling bad andwe are left feeling bad.
We do not like feeling bad.
And when our problem-solvingminds grow tired of trying to
(06:29):
fix or control things outside ofus that they're unable to do,
they will often turn theirattention inward and then see
those resulting bad feelings asproblems to begin to try to
figure out and solve.
And that's where things goreally south.
When this happens, all of thatmeaning-making,
connection-making,relation-building,
problem-solving machinery getsbrought to bear on your own
(06:50):
thoughts and ideas and emotionsand the bodily sensations that
you experience when you havedisturbing thoughts and emotions
.
Remember, bodily sensations aresupposed to come with
disturbing thoughts and emotions, but we don't like that.
And what do our minds do withthings that we don't like or
find appealing?
They try to figure them out andfix them.
So when you're confronted withthings that we ultimately know
(07:11):
that we cannot control or knowor solve or fix or avoid things
outside of our own skin, then weare left with bad feelings and
the problem solving mechanismgets turned on those bad
feelings and we try to figurethose out and solve those.
Now that attempt at problemsolving also fails, and it fails
in a spectacular way, and byspectacular I literally mean in
(07:31):
a spectacular way.
It is quite a spectacle.
People will spend all night long, all day long, for days on end,
furiously reading andresearching and resource
gathering to try to findcertainty or assurance about
things that there is nocertainty or assurance about.
They will try to know theunknowable.
They will spend a ton of timediscussing these problems with
(07:52):
other people who are trapped inthe same sort of futile,
exhausting, counterproductiveproblem solving in things like
anxiety forums or support groups.
They'll talk about how bad itfeels to feel bad.
They'll go for constantreassurance, seeking from their
friends or their families orpeople that they consider
experts or helpers that theythink will give them the magic
answers that will fix thefeelings inside of them.
(08:13):
They will often turn to thingslike dietary changes.
They will spend a ton of moneyon things like supplements or
herbs.
They will try specifictechniques or behaviors that are
often sort of presented to themor worse, sold to them as being
able to squash bad feelings orcreate good feelings Like.
The list goes on and on and on.
But in the end, the worst part,at least in my opinion, is when
(08:34):
a problem-solving mind tries tosolve itself and its own
internal experiences, fails,keeps trying and drives you into
a state of exhaustion,disheartenment and loss of hope.
That's not good, but thathappens to a lot of people.
A problem-solving mind thatdoesn't understand or refuses to
understand that it cannot solveitself creates more problems.
(08:58):
The struggle and the paradoxare real.
Now, without getting too nerdyhere, let's take a look at what
that looks like.
In metacognitive therapy, wehave a thing called the CAS,
c-a-s Cognitive AttentionalSyndrome.
Pay attention to the wordattention, because it kind of
matters here.
The CAS is what we call it.
When you have feelings andthoughts about things that you
(09:20):
can't really fix outside yourskin and then you have feelings
and thoughts inside your skinand then you have really and
thoughts inside your skin andthen you have really strong
feelings and thoughts about thefeelings and thoughts that you
are having about the thingsoutside your skin and inside
your skin.
See where this is going.
We call it the cognitiveattentional syndrome because
when the CAS is activated, itdemands that all of your
attention be given to yourinternal experiences.
(09:43):
You are having thoughts thatyou don't like, you are having
emotions that you don't like.
You may be experiencingcorresponding physical
sensations that you don't likeor find distasteful or
distressful or terrifying, andthe CAS tells you to pay very
close attention to them all thetime, to figure them out, to
find a way away from them, tofind a way to crush them.
The CAS will drive you intoareas that are unsustainable.
(10:04):
It's a really good example of aproblem-solving mind run amok
that doesn't seem to understandwhen it's making things worse.
In ACT, acceptance andCommitment Therapy which is
something you hear me talk aboutall the time around here, we
have a concept calledexperiential avoidance.
This is a central concept inACT.
Experiential avoidance is whatwe call it when we go to great
lengths to get away from, avoidor escape internal experiences.
(10:29):
Those tend to be thoughts andemotions, and I also like to
include bodily sensations,although that's kind of a
secondary thing, because thebodily sensations are triggered
by the thoughts and the emotions.
These are things we do not like.
We find them distasteful orterrifying or scary or
disturbing, so we try to avoidthem, either by escaping,
controlling or preventing Seemslike a good idea, but keep in
mind that avoidance is anin-the-moment strategy.
(10:51):
Avoidance is about feelingbetter now, and while you might
be able to do that, it comes ata high cost.
That cost is restricted,shrinking, highly controlled,
very rigidly lived lives.
That avoidance causes problemsin relationships, in your school
, in your careers, in yourfriendships, in just about
everything.
We wind up feeling that thereare so many things that we can't
(11:12):
or shouldn't do, or can only dounder a very specific set of
circumstances, where we know wewon't be triggered, or we lower
our probability of beingtriggered into internal
experiences that we hate or fear.
Sometimes that doesn't work andwe do wind up being triggered,
which is going to happen.
And then we have to do all thethings and that list is very
long to make sure that we squashthat trigger and get rid of the
(11:34):
feelings and escape from themand soothe them right away.
And between the avoidance andthe trying to get away from the
feelings, when they aretriggered against our will, what
time is there left for actualliving?
And if we look at the ability ofyour mind to form relations
between one thing and any otherthing in any way, shape or form
at any given time, we can alsosee that this leads to fear
(11:55):
being generalized.
One good example is how ananxious person may have a
problem with one particular verytriggering co-worker that I
have a hard time getting alongwith.
Initially being at work isdifficult when they come in
contact with that one troublingco-worker.
But very quickly our minds canmake relationships between that
work thing and all the workthings.
And next thing, you know you'rejust genuinely anxious at work
(12:18):
and then generally anxious whenyou think about work and then
generally anxious when you evenconsider that you have to go to
work on Monday morning.
This is where relationshipmaking and connection making is
a really great thing that ourminds do, but also a really bad
thing because it leads togeneralizing of experiences.
Now in the recovery process,that works to our advantage, but
(12:38):
when we are sliding kind ofdown into the rabbit hole, it
definitely works against us.
I think we could probably callthat good machinery used in a
really bad way.
So when a problem-solving mindtries to solve itself and its
own internal experiences andcan't manage to do that and
makes things turn quickly southand go off the rails into a dark
place, what can we do aboutthat?
Well, I can't solve youranxiety problem or cure you in a
(13:02):
podcast or a video, of course,but we can look at some basic
principles here, and thoseprinciples start with words that
you hear around here all thetime, like mindfulness or
tolerance or willful tolerance,or surrender or acceptance or
floating, or pick your words.
They all kind of mean the samething.
We start by paying attention.
You might think, for example,that you need to somehow find a
(13:22):
way to solve death or at aminimum to turn off your fear of
death.
But that's not really true andif I was your therapist, I
wouldn't be terribly interestedin death at all, even though
that would be your presentingconcern.
I would be more interested inthe process of thinking and
feeling and attempted problemsolving that at the moment just
happens to be focused on death.
I would be process focused, youwould be content focused and
(13:46):
that's one of those things thatwe would try to shift.
So when we start by recognizingthe process, problem solving run
amok, refusal to accept theunknowable or the unsolvable or
the fixable run amok then we canstart to make some adjustments
with how we react to thosethings and how we interact with
those things.
I'll give you a couple ofexamples.
The initial state for ananxious person might be an
(14:07):
exasperated statement like howam I ever supposed to be okay
with the idea of death?
They might think that'sabsolutely impossible and
bristle at the idea that itcould be anything but that.
But the adjustment that we'd belooking for, that comes over
time and a lot of hard work,might be a statement that looks
like I guess death really is anunsolvable problem but it is for
(14:27):
all of us and right now I'mhaving a lot of really powerful
thoughts and feelings about that.
That's always going to befollowed by an acknowledgement
that it's okay to have thatinternal experience, see the
shift, that once we can start tomake that shift and focus a
little bit more on recognizingthe process instead of being
fixated on the content thatseems so very important in the
(14:48):
moment, we can start to makechanges in the way we respond
from a behavioral point of view.
We can start to make moreinformed or values-based
decisions when we do wind uptriggered, which we invariably
will.
So at first those movementsmight sort of look like this
Initially a person might gettriggered into the fear of death
and all the correspondinginternal experiences that come
(15:08):
along with that, and they mayrespond instantly by frantically
trying to remember what podcastit was where that doctor said
that he had figured out that weare basically immortal if we
could just unlock the biologicalsecrets that he thinks he's on
track of.
And he talked about supplementsor some sort of routines that
he's supposed to follow.
And I just have to rememberthat.
What podcast was that on?
What did he say to do?
(15:28):
Is that true?
Is it really true?
Can I solve the problem ofdeath?
And they will be frantic andthey will be trying to actually
operate on the content.
In this case that would bedeath, and anybody who's ever
listened to that guy I'm notgoing to say his name knows what
I'm talking about.
I've got those questions in myDMs and my email all the time,
every week.
Hey, did you see Dr So-and-soon such-and-such podcast?
(15:51):
Why does he say that we canmaybe live forever if we can
unlock those secrets?
Do you think that's true?
Do you think I'd be able to doit?
That person is terrified andtrying to solve the problem of
their internal experience, theterror, by coming to grips with
the actual content of death andimmortality.
But again, after some hard workand some repetition and some
(16:12):
consistency and someself-compassion and kindness in
the process, that might change.
A person might wind up in atriggered state where their fear
of death has been highlyactivated and they feel really
bad, but they may be able torespond in a slightly different
way.
I'm in the same situation rightnow highly triggered, highly
uncomfortable that every otherhuman being before me and after
me is going to experience.
(16:33):
I guess it's okay to feel this,because we all do.
It's a shared experience.
What else can I do?
Because when I try to solvethis problem, it brings me into
bad places and dark places and Iwind up feeling worse.
So what are my options here?
Can you see the shift?
Can you see the change overtime.
You may think that you have totake action to solve the problem
(16:53):
of death in this circumstance,or heart attacks, or
unknowability or possible harmthat your OCD tells you you may
do to people that you love thatyou're absolutely not going to
do to people that you love.
You may feel like you need tosolve those problems because
those are inside problemsthoughts, emotions, beliefs,
images, bodily sensations but inthe end, what you really want
to be able to do is cultivatethe ability to see that
(17:15):
problem-solving process run amokbecause it's leading you into
places that it doesn't belongand isn't going to help you.
So we're trying to cultivateand support kind observation of
that process in action and then,once we do, we can sort of
shift into that values-drivenmode that we talk about all the
time on this podcast hey, wait aminute.
Acting in ways that align withwhat you truly value, even
(17:38):
though you're afraid anduncomfortable.
That sounds a lot likepsychological flexibility,
doesn't it?
So there's really so much morethat I could say about this.
I could be here for hours andhours.
I could probably be here fordays talking about this, and if
you're one of the people whosits with me every week for an
hour and works on these kind ofproblems together with me, then
we do get to talk quite a bitabout it, but in a podcast or
(18:00):
video environment.
The best I could do is try tosum things up with a general
principle that you might be ableto start with and lean on the
next time you find yourself in ahighly triggered, highly
agitated, frustrated, anxious,frantic, terrified state.
Recognize the process, if youcan.
This may be the result of yourmind turning its problem-solving
mechanisms onto itself andtrying to solve your own
(18:23):
internal experiences, which itwill be unable to do.
Recognize that, while thismechanism seems to make sense,
it isn't always useful anddoesn't belong here.
Acknowledge that life istriggering and difficult enough,
without making it even harderby trying to solve things that
are not meant to be solved.
Your thoughts and your emotions, internal experiences, emotions
(18:45):
, thoughts, ideas, bodilysensations are experiences to
have.
They are not things to figureout or problems to solve, which
is something I say all the timeand I will continue to say all
the time, because it's reallyimportant If you can look at
this process in action, watchingthat machine work, watching
those problem-solving gears turnat high speed even though you
(19:05):
know they're not going to goanywhere.
Then you might have theopportunity to take a slightly
different tact and respond in adifferent way.
Maybe you might take a secondto stop and deflate that balloon
and relax your body a littlebit, even though you don't want
to.
Maybe take a second and thankyour mind for trying to protect
you it's doing the best that itcan with the resources that it
has.
Then decide what makes moresense for you Continuing to feed
(19:29):
into that cycle, to try tosolve things inside of you that
have proven to be unsolvable, ortaking action toward things
that would actually make yourlife a little bit more
meaningful, while you still feelafraid, uncomfortable and
triggered.
This is a really difficult pathto go down, but there are
benefits If you decide to trythis and lean on this principle
(19:50):
and start to work in thisdirection, which, again, is a
very broad brush but might getyou started in the right
direction.
Be nice to yourself, be kind,be patient.
This is a big shift and it'sgonna take some time.
So that's episode 321 of theAnxious Truth in the books, a
little longer than I thought itwould be.
Thanks for hanging in therewith me.
I hope you got something out ofthis, primarily an
understanding of what happenswhen your problem-solving
(20:12):
mechanism turns on itself anddrives things into ridiculous,
uncomfortable, untenable places.
Take what you can from thepodcast episode.
Try to use it as best you canRemember.
If you take anything out ofthis episode and just make one
small change, like I maybesuggested toward the end here,
and you can move a little bitcloser to that direction and a
little bit away fromperpetuating the fruitless,
(20:36):
exhausting, pointless problemsolving, then you're winning,
like every little change youmake counts, they add up, they
matter, they will get you towhere you want to be.
So I'll end the episode byasking the same favors that I
always do.
If you're listening on ApplePodcasts or Spotify, those are
places that let you leaveratings and reviews on podcasts.
So if you dig the Anxious Truth,leave a five-star rating and if
(20:56):
you really like the AnxiousTruth, maybe take a minute or
two and write a review on one ofthose platforms saying why you
like the podcast, because thathelps people understand that
it's useful and more people canfind the podcast, and then more
people can get some help, andthat's why I do this to begin
with.
It would really be helping meout and I appreciate that.
Anybody who's ever left areview or a rating on the
podcast, thank you, I doappreciate that.
(21:18):
So I will be back next weekwith another episode.
Actually, I'll be back in twoweeks with another episode.
I don't know what that's goingto be, but I will be here.
Take what you can out of thisone.
Do the best you can.
I know you can get there.
Be nice to yourself, be patient, be consistent in the work and
I promise change can happen.
Take care of yourself and I'llsee you next time.
This week on the Anxious Truth, we're talking
about what happens when aproblem-solving mind sees itself
as a problem to solve.
So let's get at it.
Hello everybody, welcome backto the Anxious Truth.
This is episode 321 of thepodcast we're recording in July
of 2025.
If you're listening in thefuture, this is the quick and
(00:22):
dirty edition of the AnxiousTruth, because I have jury duty
this week and no time to edit.
So this week we're talkingabout what happens specifically
the struggle, the bad thingsthat happen when an anxious mind
that's also a problem-solvingmind turns on itself and sees
itself as a problem to solve.
Before we do that, just a quickintroduction.
If you're new to the AnxiousTruth your first time here I
(00:42):
hope you find it helpful.
I'm Drew Linsalata, the creatorand host of this podcast.
I'm a therapist specializing inthe treatment of anxiety and
anxiety disorders, practicing inNew York.
I'm also a former sufferer ofthe very problems that I talk
about on this podcast, but muchbetter now Three-time author on
this topic.
Clearly, a podcaster got withan expensive microphone, social
media dude, advocate,psychoeducator, all of the
(01:04):
things, and I'm glad that you'rehere.
I hope you find this episodehelpful and, if you do, maybe
check out other episodes of thepodcast.
You might find them helpful tooif you're struggling with
anxiety issues.
Of course, if you're areturning listener, welcome back
.
I appreciate you being hereToday.
We are going to talk about whathappens when a problem-solving
mind which is all human mindsgets into an anxious state, then
turns on itself and startstrying to solve itself, or your
(01:26):
own internal experiences, whichlies at the heart of most every
anxiety disorder.
Before we get into that, just aquick reminder that the Anxious
Truth is more than just thispodcast episode.
There are a ton of excellentresources, many of which are
free on my website attheanxioustruthcom.
So if you get a chance, gocheck that out.
Avail yourself of all thegoodies.
Everybody seems to enjoy themand find them helpful.
(01:47):
Hopefully you will too.
So check it out attheanxioustruthcom.
So let's get into today's topic.
Okay, we need to talk about athing.
We need to talk about how oneof the coolest things about a
human mind is its ability toform relationships and make
connections between anything andanything else in any possible
(02:07):
way.
It's insane.
It's really good at that andthat's a really useful thing.
We can form relationships andconnections between any part of
our experience external andinternal and any other part of
our experience, internal andexternal, in any way, shape or
form.
It's practically an infinitenumber of combinations and it's
(02:28):
what sets us apart fromeverything else walking the
planet or swimming in the oceansor flying above our heads.
This relation connection-makingmachine is active all the time,
whenever we're awake.
It's probably active when we'renot awake I'd have to look into
that and it has proven to besuper useful to human beings
over time.
It's the only reason why youcan understand the words that
(02:48):
I'm saying to you right now orhave a conversation with your
best friend or play your role inhumans dominating and changing
the planet the way we do andhave been for thousands of years
since we developed this ability, which is kind of symbolic and
relational thinking that led tolanguage and all kinds of other
things.
This serves us very well.
Until it doesn't, it's supercool, until it's not.
(03:15):
This relation-making,connection-making ability leads
to problem-solving abilitybecause we have the ability to
decide whether things are goodor bad, or we like them or don't
like them, or want them ordon't want them.
We can compare different states.
We can compare the don't wantthem.
We can compare different states.
We can compare the past and thepresent.
We can compare the past and thefuture.
We can compare the present andthe future.
We can do this all day long andthis becomes a problem because
(03:35):
it leads to problem solving.
You know that the problemsolving mechanism has itself
become a problem.
When you start to hear somebodyuse words and phrases like
anxious or overthinking orobsessed or the ever-popular
control freak, when you hearsomebody tell you that they are
a control freak or that theymust know and they can't
tolerate uncertainty, you arewatching the problem-solving,
relation-making,connection-making machine in
(03:58):
overdrive and jumping off therails.
If you are feeling perpetuallyanxious, if you feel like you're
falling victim to overthinking,if you feel that you're
perpetually hyper fixated onproblems that probably aren't
really even problems andsolutions that are nowhere to be
found, and you're starting tofeel frustrated or disheartened
or exhausted as a result,there's a really good chance
(04:18):
that your relation-making,connection-making,
problem-solving machine has nowbecome a problem.
And I'll tell you why makingproblem solving machine has now
become a problem and I'll tellyou why.
This machinery that we havebetween our ears is able to
judge and compare and evaluateand decide and then fix.
Fixing is a really broad term.
It shows up in various ways,cognitively and behaviorally.
But for today let's just sortof stick with the basics and a
(04:41):
simplistic explanation.
Humans love to figure out andthen fix or control anything
they deem not appealing.
That's a good place to start,because that gets us into
trouble.
Hell, we even problem solve thegood stuff.
This is why we have phrases inour language like if it ain't
broke, don't fix it, becausesometimes we have to remind
ourselves that things are goodand we make them worse when we
(05:02):
try to make them gooder.
That comparison and relationbuilding mechanism in our minds
lets us take something that'sgood or even great and try to
figure out ways to make it evenbetter.
We don't know how to stay in agood moment.
We only know how to try to getmore good moments or make a good
moment even better, and weoften wind up ruining it as a
result.
So in that way, thatproblem-solving, relation-making
(05:25):
, connection-making, comparisonmachine really gets us into
trouble.
But that is a story for anotherpodcast episode.
For now let's return to whathappens when the problem-solving
is turned inward.
So, by way of reference, lastweek on my Substack, I wrote a
lengthy article about our desireto control things that we
really can't control and how wework even harder to control them
when we discover that that'simpossible.
(05:47):
If you want to check out thatarticle, that's on my sub stack.
I'll put a link on the screen,or the video description or the
podcast description.
You can go check that out.
In a nutshell, we wind up tryingreally hard to know what we
cannot know, be certain aboutwhat is uncertain, solve what
cannot be solved and controlwhat is absolutely
uncontrollable.
And even when we recognize thatthere's no point in trying
(06:09):
those things, we often doubledown and try even harder and it
really gets us into trouble.
We try to control and fix andknow and be certain and figure
out and then we can't and we areleft feeling bad.
We do not like feeling bad andwe are left feeling bad.
We do not like feeling bad.
And when our problem-solvingminds grow tired of trying to
(06:29):
fix or control things outside ofus that they're unable to do,
they will often turn theirattention inward and then see
those resulting bad feelings asproblems to begin to try to
figure out and solve.
And that's where things goreally south.
When this happens, all of thatmeaning-making,
connection-making,relation-building,
problem-solving machinery getsbrought to bear on your own
(06:50):
thoughts and ideas and emotionsand the bodily sensations that
you experience when you havedisturbing thoughts and emotions
.
Remember, bodily sensations aresupposed to come with
disturbing thoughts and emotions, but we don't like that.
And what do our minds do withthings that we don't like or
find appealing?
They try to figure them out andfix them.
So when you're confronted withthings that we ultimately know
(07:11):
that we cannot control or knowor solve or fix or avoid things
outside of our own skin, then weare left with bad feelings and
the problem solving mechanismgets turned on those bad
feelings and we try to figurethose out and solve those.
Now that attempt at problemsolving also fails, and it fails
in a spectacular way, and byspectacular I literally mean in
(07:31):
a spectacular way.
It is quite a spectacle.
People will spend all night long, all day long, for days on end,
furiously reading andresearching and resource
gathering to try to findcertainty or assurance about
things that there is nocertainty or assurance about.
They will try to know theunknowable.
They will spend a ton of timediscussing these problems with
(07:52):
other people who are trapped inthe same sort of futile,
exhausting, counterproductiveproblem solving in things like
anxiety forums or support groups.
They'll talk about how bad itfeels to feel bad.
They'll go for constantreassurance, seeking from their
friends or their families orpeople that they consider
experts or helpers that theythink will give them the magic
answers that will fix thefeelings inside of them.
(08:13):
They will often turn to thingslike dietary changes.
They will spend a ton of moneyon things like supplements or
herbs.
They will try specifictechniques or behaviors that are
often sort of presented to themor worse, sold to them as being
able to squash bad feelings orcreate good feelings Like.
The list goes on and on and on.
But in the end, the worst part,at least in my opinion, is when
(08:34):
a problem-solving mind tries tosolve itself and its own
internal experiences, fails,keeps trying and drives you into
a state of exhaustion,disheartenment and loss of hope.
That's not good, but thathappens to a lot of people.
A problem-solving mind thatdoesn't understand or refuses to
understand that it cannot solveitself creates more problems.
(08:58):
The struggle and the paradoxare real.
Now, without getting too nerdyhere, let's take a look at what
that looks like.
In metacognitive therapy, wehave a thing called the CAS,
c-a-s Cognitive AttentionalSyndrome.
Pay attention to the wordattention, because it kind of
matters here.
The CAS is what we call it.
When you have feelings andthoughts about things that you
(09:20):
can't really fix outside yourskin and then you have feelings
and thoughts inside your skinand then you have really and
thoughts inside your skin andthen you have really strong
feelings and thoughts about thefeelings and thoughts that you
are having about the thingsoutside your skin and inside
your skin.
See where this is going.
We call it the cognitiveattentional syndrome because
when the CAS is activated, itdemands that all of your
attention be given to yourinternal experiences.
(09:43):
You are having thoughts thatyou don't like, you are having
emotions that you don't like.
You may be experiencingcorresponding physical
sensations that you don't likeor find distasteful or
distressful or terrifying, andthe CAS tells you to pay very
close attention to them all thetime, to figure them out, to
find a way away from them, tofind a way to crush them.
The CAS will drive you intoareas that are unsustainable.
(10:04):
It's a really good example of aproblem-solving mind run amok
that doesn't seem to understandwhen it's making things worse.
In ACT, acceptance andCommitment Therapy which is
something you hear me talk aboutall the time around here, we
have a concept calledexperiential avoidance.
This is a central concept inACT.
Experiential avoidance is whatwe call it when we go to great
lengths to get away from, avoidor escape internal experiences.
(10:29):
Those tend to be thoughts andemotions, and I also like to
include bodily sensations,although that's kind of a
secondary thing, because thebodily sensations are triggered
by the thoughts and the emotions.
These are things we do not like.
We find them distasteful orterrifying or scary or
disturbing, so we try to avoidthem, either by escaping,
controlling or preventing Seemslike a good idea, but keep in
mind that avoidance is anin-the-moment strategy.
(10:51):
Avoidance is about feelingbetter now, and while you might
be able to do that, it comes ata high cost.
That cost is restricted,shrinking, highly controlled,
very rigidly lived lives.
That avoidance causes problemsin relationships, in your school
, in your careers, in yourfriendships, in just about
everything.
We wind up feeling that thereare so many things that we can't
(11:12):
or shouldn't do, or can only dounder a very specific set of
circumstances, where we know wewon't be triggered, or we lower
our probability of beingtriggered into internal
experiences that we hate or fear.
Sometimes that doesn't work andwe do wind up being triggered,
which is going to happen.
And then we have to do all thethings and that list is very
long to make sure that we squashthat trigger and get rid of the
(11:34):
feelings and escape from themand soothe them right away.
And between the avoidance andthe trying to get away from the
feelings, when they aretriggered against our will, what
time is there left for actualliving?
And if we look at the ability ofyour mind to form relations
between one thing and any otherthing in any way, shape or form
at any given time, we can alsosee that this leads to fear
(11:55):
being generalized.
One good example is how ananxious person may have a
problem with one particular verytriggering co-worker that I
have a hard time getting alongwith.
Initially being at work isdifficult when they come in
contact with that one troublingco-worker.
But very quickly our minds canmake relationships between that
work thing and all the workthings.
And next thing, you know you'rejust genuinely anxious at work
(12:18):
and then generally anxious whenyou think about work and then
generally anxious when you evenconsider that you have to go to
work on Monday morning.
This is where relationshipmaking and connection making is
a really great thing that ourminds do, but also a really bad
thing because it leads togeneralizing of experiences.
Now in the recovery process,that works to our advantage, but
(12:38):
when we are sliding kind ofdown into the rabbit hole, it
definitely works against us.
I think we could probably callthat good machinery used in a
really bad way.
So when a problem-solving mindtries to solve itself and its
own internal experiences andcan't manage to do that and
makes things turn quickly southand go off the rails into a dark
place, what can we do aboutthat?
Well, I can't solve youranxiety problem or cure you in a
(13:02):
podcast or a video, of course,but we can look at some basic
principles here, and thoseprinciples start with words that
you hear around here all thetime, like mindfulness or
tolerance or willful tolerance,or surrender or acceptance or
floating, or pick your words.
They all kind of mean the samething.
We start by paying attention.
You might think, for example,that you need to somehow find a
(13:22):
way to solve death or at aminimum to turn off your fear of
death.
But that's not really true andif I was your therapist, I
wouldn't be terribly interestedin death at all, even though
that would be your presentingconcern.
I would be more interested inthe process of thinking and
feeling and attempted problemsolving that at the moment just
happens to be focused on death.
I would be process focused, youwould be content focused and
(13:46):
that's one of those things thatwe would try to shift.
So when we start by recognizingthe process, problem solving run
amok, refusal to accept theunknowable or the unsolvable or
the fixable run amok then we canstart to make some adjustments
with how we react to thosethings and how we interact with
those things.
I'll give you a couple ofexamples.
The initial state for ananxious person might be an
(14:07):
exasperated statement like howam I ever supposed to be okay
with the idea of death?
They might think that'sabsolutely impossible and
bristle at the idea that itcould be anything but that.
But the adjustment that we'd belooking for, that comes over
time and a lot of hard work,might be a statement that looks
like I guess death really is anunsolvable problem but it is for
(14:27):
all of us and right now I'mhaving a lot of really powerful
thoughts and feelings about that.
That's always going to befollowed by an acknowledgement
that it's okay to have thatinternal experience, see the
shift, that once we can start tomake that shift and focus a
little bit more on recognizingthe process instead of being
fixated on the content thatseems so very important in the
(14:48):
moment, we can start to makechanges in the way we respond
from a behavioral point of view.
We can start to make moreinformed or values-based
decisions when we do wind uptriggered, which we invariably
will.
So at first those movementsmight sort of look like this
Initially a person might gettriggered into the fear of death
and all the correspondinginternal experiences that come
(15:08):
along with that, and they mayrespond instantly by frantically
trying to remember what podcastit was where that doctor said
that he had figured out that weare basically immortal if we
could just unlock the biologicalsecrets that he thinks he's on
track of.
And he talked about supplementsor some sort of routines that
he's supposed to follow.
And I just have to rememberthat.
What podcast was that on?
What did he say to do?
(15:28):
Is that true?
Is it really true?
Can I solve the problem ofdeath?
And they will be frantic andthey will be trying to actually
operate on the content.
In this case that would bedeath, and anybody who's ever
listened to that guy I'm notgoing to say his name knows what
I'm talking about.
I've got those questions in myDMs and my email all the time,
every week.
Hey, did you see Dr So-and-soon such-and-such podcast?
(15:51):
Why does he say that we canmaybe live forever if we can
unlock those secrets?
Do you think that's true?
Do you think I'd be able to doit?
That person is terrified andtrying to solve the problem of
their internal experience, theterror, by coming to grips with
the actual content of death andimmortality.
But again, after some hard workand some repetition and some
(16:12):
consistency and someself-compassion and kindness in
the process, that might change.
A person might wind up in atriggered state where their fear
of death has been highlyactivated and they feel really
bad, but they may be able torespond in a slightly different
way.
I'm in the same situation rightnow highly triggered, highly
uncomfortable that every otherhuman being before me and after
me is going to experience.
(16:33):
I guess it's okay to feel this,because we all do.
It's a shared experience.
What else can I do?
Because when I try to solvethis problem, it brings me into
bad places and dark places and Iwind up feeling worse.
So what are my options here?
Can you see the shift?
Can you see the change overtime.
You may think that you have totake action to solve the problem
(16:53):
of death in this circumstance,or heart attacks, or
unknowability or possible harmthat your OCD tells you you may
do to people that you love thatyou're absolutely not going to
do to people that you love.
You may feel like you need tosolve those problems because
those are inside problemsthoughts, emotions, beliefs,
images, bodily sensations but inthe end, what you really want
to be able to do is cultivatethe ability to see that
(17:15):
problem-solving process run amokbecause it's leading you into
places that it doesn't belongand isn't going to help you.
So we're trying to cultivateand support kind observation of
that process in action and then,once we do, we can sort of
shift into that values-drivenmode that we talk about all the
time on this podcast hey, wait aminute.
Acting in ways that align withwhat you truly value, even
(17:38):
though you're afraid anduncomfortable.
That sounds a lot likepsychological flexibility,
doesn't it?
So there's really so much morethat I could say about this.
I could be here for hours andhours.
I could probably be here fordays talking about this, and if
you're one of the people whosits with me every week for an
hour and works on these kind ofproblems together with me, then
we do get to talk quite a bitabout it, but in a podcast or
(18:00):
video environment.
The best I could do is try tosum things up with a general
principle that you might be ableto start with and lean on the
next time you find yourself in ahighly triggered, highly
agitated, frustrated, anxious,frantic, terrified state.
Recognize the process, if youcan.
This may be the result of yourmind turning its problem-solving
mechanisms onto itself andtrying to solve your own
(18:23):
internal experiences, which itwill be unable to do.
Recognize that, while thismechanism seems to make sense,
it isn't always useful anddoesn't belong here.
Acknowledge that life istriggering and difficult enough,
without making it even harderby trying to solve things that
are not meant to be solved.
Your thoughts and your emotions, internal experiences, emotions
(18:45):
, thoughts, ideas, bodilysensations are experiences to
have.
They are not things to figureout or problems to solve, which
is something I say all the timeand I will continue to say all
the time, because it's reallyimportant If you can look at
this process in action, watchingthat machine work, watching
those problem-solving gears turnat high speed even though you
(19:05):
know they're not going to goanywhere.
Then you might have theopportunity to take a slightly
different tact and respond in adifferent way.
Maybe you might take a secondto stop and deflate that balloon
and relax your body a littlebit, even though you don't want
to.
Maybe take a second and thankyour mind for trying to protect
you it's doing the best that itcan with the resources that it
has.
Then decide what makes moresense for you Continuing to feed
(19:29):
into that cycle, to try tosolve things inside of you that
have proven to be unsolvable, ortaking action toward things
that would actually make yourlife a little bit more
meaningful, while you still feelafraid, uncomfortable and
triggered.
This is a really difficult pathto go down, but there are
benefits If you decide to trythis and lean on this principle
(19:50):
and start to work in thisdirection, which, again, is a
very broad brush but might getyou started in the right
direction.
Be nice to yourself, be kind,be patient.
This is a big shift and it'sgonna take some time.
So that's episode 321 of theAnxious Truth in the books, a
little longer than I thought itwould be.
Thanks for hanging in therewith me.
I hope you got something out ofthis, primarily an
understanding of what happenswhen your problem-solving
(20:12):
mechanism turns on itself anddrives things into ridiculous,
uncomfortable, untenable places.
Take what you can from thepodcast episode.
Try to use it as best you canRemember.
If you take anything out ofthis episode and just make one
small change, like I maybesuggested toward the end here,
and you can move a little bitcloser to that direction and a
little bit away fromperpetuating the fruitless,
(20:36):
exhausting, pointless problemsolving, then you're winning,
like every little change youmake counts, they add up, they
matter, they will get you towhere you want to be.
So I'll end the episode byasking the same favors that I
always do.
If you're listening on ApplePodcasts or Spotify, those are
places that let you leaveratings and reviews on podcasts.
So if you dig the Anxious Truth,leave a five-star rating and if
(20:56):
you really like the AnxiousTruth, maybe take a minute or
two and write a review on one ofthose platforms saying why you
like the podcast, because thathelps people understand that
it's useful and more people canfind the podcast, and then more
people can get some help, andthat's why I do this to begin
with.
It would really be helping meout and I appreciate that.
Anybody who's ever left areview or a rating on the
podcast, thank you, I doappreciate that.
(21:18):
So I will be back next weekwith another episode.
Actually, I'll be back in twoweeks with another episode.
I don't know what that's goingto be, but I will be here.
Take what you can out of thisone.
Do the best you can.
I know you can get there.
Be nice to yourself, be patient, be consistent in the work and
I promise change can happen.
Take care of yourself and I'llsee you next time.
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