Beginner to Pro in 2 years: How To Learn Photography Fast with Nick Church

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Nick Church (00:00):
What I love it is that you are in absolute control
of success and failure, and ifyou do a shoot, you're not happy
with, you've got no one else toblame.
If you learn something from it.
Then it's still a positivething.
You think, wow, I didn't dealwith the poor light very well at
all in that shoot.
I need to up my game.
I need to do this next time.
And that's really productivebecause you can then go straight
into your next shoot with arefreshed attitude about what

(00:22):
you're going to do differently

Raymond Hatfield (00:25):
Hey, welcome to the beginner photography
podcast.
I'm your host, Raymond Hatfield.
And each week I interview one ofthe world's most interesting
photographers to learn what itreally takes to capture
beautiful images so that you canstart to do the same.
In today's rewind episode, weare chatting with wedding
photographer, Nick Church, abouthow he went from nine to five to
full time photographer in just24 months.

(00:47):
But first, the beginnerphotography podcast brought to
you by CloudSpot.
You know this.
With CloudSpot, you can simplifyyour business with studio
management.
You can organize clients, sendprofessional contracts and
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Keeping track of everything inyour new photography business
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So grab your free foreveraccount today over at

(01:10):
deliverphotos.
com and only upgrade when youand your business are ready.
Now, Nick Church did somethingthat many of you listening right
now, aspire to leave your joband start earning a full time
living with your photography.
What's crazy about Nick story isas you'll hear, he went from
picking up a camera for thefirst time to opening the doors

(01:32):
of his wedding photographybusiness in just two years.
So obviously today we talk aboutbusiness, but we also talk about
the technical skills that arerequired to do so.
How he learned the skill that isphotography in a calculated way
that would grow skills and notjust go out there for fun and
hope for the best.
So in today's episode, you'regoing to learn how to create a

(01:53):
structured learning approach foryour photography.
How to start marketing yourphotography within a budget and
how to create opportunity thatwill get your name out there.
So with that, let's go ahead andget on into today's interview
with Nick Church.
Today's guest is Nick Church, aUK based wedding photographer
who, until 2014, had neverpicked up a camera.

(02:14):
Twenty four months later, heleft his full time job and has
had photography replace hisincome.
Today, I'm excited to find outHow Nick did it so quick Nick,
thank you so much for coming onthe podcast.

Hey, no, you're welcome You have to be here.

So before we get started, I know that there's
gonna be a lot of listenersThinking not a wedding
photographer.
This interview isn't going toapply to me But you make an
income of several differenttypes of photography.
Is that right?

Yeah, I mean, it's primarily weddings But, sure,
professional headshots, um, afew family shoots and some
landscape stuff and a bit ofeverything really.
Yeah, I mean, it's, I think it'sapplicable to all.

Perfect.
That's exactly what I was goingfor.
Just to have somebody come onwho's going to share knowledge
that is more than, than justwedding photography.
Because I think that your storyis unique going from, picking up
a camera one day and then within24 months being able to leave a
full time job, which as I'veread online was, was a pretty
good job.
So knowing that it's more thanjust wedding photography is

(03:16):
going to help a lot oflisteners.
So before we get into that, Iwant you to take me back to
2013, right?
You had never picked up acamera.

2014.
What

were you doing and how did you get your start
in photography?

Well, it was, I've always been into art, so I've
always been, you know, had acreative, creative outlet and
that's either been music or art,creating, you know, pen and ink
drawings and things like that.
The job that I, the career thatI had was in the software
industry and since, moving frombeing a software architect and
software engineer, which isquite a creative job, bizarrely,

(03:51):
because you're, you're creatingsoftware designs and so on,
moving into management that Ifound that extremely dry and I
needed to have this sort ofcreative side as well.
it was purely that I was doingquite a lot of traveling with
work.
So I was going to the MiddleEast, going to the Far East and,
uh, I wanted to, to take somepictures so that I could draw
them when I got back, you know,some just different things to

(04:11):
draw.
so I bought a, micro four thirdscamera, just, Olympus and
thought, right, better read howthis works.
And I had no idea about, youknow, so I was, it was on
automatic mode.
So I thought, right on theflight, I worked out how, how
that worked.
and just realized it worked outthe things that I didn't know.
So I didn't know how, whataperture meant.
I didn't know how that affectsthe depth of field.

(04:32):
I didn't know the sensor.
And just so that that was a fewmonths of just learning about
that.
Cause I want to, the way that Itend to learn is to do a deep
dive straight away and just getfrom the ground up.
so I'm not one of these peoplethat could just put it into mode
X and just start shooting, Idon't know what that mode is.
What have I just done to thecamera?

(04:53):
That's different from mode Y.
so yeah, and that was it.
So I was, suddenly found thatthe process of taking those
pictures was actually a lot moreimmediate for a start than going
home and drawing them.
but it was just something Ireally loved doing.
And it was, when I came back tothe UK after that trip, I
started shooting, just scenesaround my local city, Bristol in
the UK.
said, Hey, these are prettygood.

(05:14):
You know, these, you shouldexhibit these.
So I did that.
And before I knew it, I was,just doing some exhibitions in
cafes, some galleries, took somestuff in and I was selling a bit
of work and it was, and that wasan amazing feeling just to be
able to, when someone comesalong with 20 quid, sort of 25
equivalent.
Um, and says, yeah, we reallylike that.
We'll give you some money for itand to be rewarded financially

(05:35):
for something that you love tocreate.
And it was a creative process isamazing.
But a couple of people that didthat also then said, do you
shoot weddings?
Which, I've never shied away fora challenge.
So I said, yes, absolutely.
Um, and then thought, right, Ibetter work out how I'd actually
shoot a wedding pretty quickly.
I had about nine months or so,to do that.

(05:56):
And.
Yeah, so just, just spent that,that nine months really working
out what the differencesbetween, shooting a nice church
that stays nice and still or asunset that stays pretty still
and loads of stuff happening ata wedding where you only get one
chance and, so that, that waskind of interesting learning,
learning that process.
But I, I think it was after thatfirst wedding.
delivering those photos back andseeing their reaction.

(06:19):
I haven't looked at the photosfor a while, so I'm not sure if
I, I don't think I dare look atit now.
but to see that reaction, Ithought, wow, that this is the
most rewarded I've felt foryears, And I thought, right,
I've got, I was toying with theidea.
could I do this?
Am I good enough to be able todo that?
Could I build up the business todo it?
And my son who was 10 at thetime was listening, I was boring

(06:40):
him to tears with this.
And he said, he said, just doit.
What's there to lose?
And I said, there's a careerthat I've had for 20 years.
There's our house, but all thosethings, he said, well, you can
always go back to it.
And I thought that's quite hardto argue with that kind of logic
of a 10 year old.
Yeah.
So that's what I did.
I thought, right, what would Ineed to do to get from where I
am now?
to position that I could leavemy current role without being

(07:02):
irresponsible to my family and,us all being on the streets, and
just set the plan in motion.
so how'd that as a target?

Yeah.
So a lot to tackle there, a lotto unpack.
Okay.
So the first thing I want to,clarify, did you say that you
bought a camera for a trip andthen on the flight, That you
were taking the trip on, youlearned how to use the camera?

Yeah, yeah.

Bit last minute, but hey, it worked out.
Yeah, a bit last

minute, but I didn't need it for the trip, you
know, right?
I mean, you got children,Raymond?
I do, too, yes.
Yeah, so you can imagine, Beingon a flight for 10 hours is the
most peace and quiet you havethat you've had for years,
right?
So that was the perfect time

to

get it back.
So I just sat down and read whatI needed to read.
And that's

great.
That's great.
Okay.
so based on that, when you werereading through this manual,
what would you say was thehardest part, technically for
you to comprehend or understand,

I'll be, I am very lucky.
I do have a background inphysics and maths.
And so from that.
I know how light works.
I know how optics, the theory ofit.
So that whole side of it wasjust already there.
So I already had that knowledgeand that, and that was a great,
advantage, but there's about anhour's worth of YouTube videos
that you could watch to, tobring you up to speed on that

(08:13):
side.
yeah, it just all seemed to makesense, really.
The, the technical side ofphotography.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It seems to make sense.
I mean, it's it is very muchtrial and error.
And I think you do need to thengo into going to get into the
field and see what it's like totry some of these these settings
out.
But once I knew how, aperturepriority mode was going to work,
what my variables were in eachof those cases, the classic

(08:34):
exposure triangle, those allthat stuff, that's really easy.
Yeah.
The basis of what I thought Ineeded to be able to go in and
shoot photos and get and be ableto record on that sense of what
I had in my mind that I wantedto do

right now.
That makes sense.
So later on, you said that whenyou got back from that trip, you
had a few photos.
You started shooting aroundBristol, and then you said, one
thing led to another.
And then I was doing,exhibitions and selling prints.
There's something in betweenthere.
There's something in betweenthe, Hey, I took a photo and now
I'm selling prints.
So when you say that you'redoing exhibitions and putting in

(09:08):
coffee shops, was that, I mean,you had a full time job at this
point.
Was that on purpose that youwould, would you just approach
coffee shops and ask to put up?

Yeah, absolutely.
So there's, I'm real believerthat, apart from maybe one or
two percent of people are goingto get someone come up to them
and say, Hey, we want, we'regoing to give you this fantastic
opportunity for no apparentreason that you've not earned,
that, that just doesn't happento most of us.
So the, for the rest of us, it'slegwork and effort.
And that is really tough whenyou have family and you've got a

(09:39):
full time job, it's tough to beable to put the amount of time
in that you need.
So what I've realized was, allright, I've got these photos.
I want to be rewarded for forthis.
I want to get that feedback frompeople buying this or at least
appreciating it if not buying itSo that was quite a drive.
I wanted to I thought rightwhere can I do that?
So I had a list of things Icould do which was contact all

(10:01):
the art galleries around my cityor the coffee shops.
I thought all this wall spacein, cafes, and as it turns out,
they will bite your arm off ifthere's a local photographer
with some free artwork thatthey're going to put on the
wall, loads of them said, and inthe end, I just had to, just
pick a selection because theyall pretty much wanted it.

What was it that you were hoping to get out
of displaying your photos in acoffee shop?
Was it sales?
Or was it just recognition?
Yeah,

recognition and sales.
I think you can, you know, youfrom with the advantage I've got
of having had a career inbusiness and in software, where
you have to lots of marketing.
And, if you're going to doanything, you have to have a
brand and you have to startgrowing that brand and, making
it a thing.
And I think when we start out,it isn't a thing.
It's just, whether it's yourname or whatever you call it,

(10:45):
it's just, that's just whatyou've called it.
As soon as it.
People see it on the wall, theysee it on Facebook, they see it
on your website, they see it ona business card.
It's becoming something that istangible then.
And I think that's all part ofit.
And I'm not sure I was reallymaking some big intention to
think, right, I'm going to getmy name across this group of
this part of Bristol through thecoffee shop.

(11:07):
just knew that if I was going todo anything.
Other than just enjoy my ownphotography, then I was going to
have to start pushing my workout there and it is pushing,
people aren't going to come andknock on your door and ask for
it,

even though that's what everybody wants.
Everybody thinks that about awebsite too.
I think that's one of the mainthings that you're like somebody
I literally read the other daythat somebody put up a website
last week and they hadn't gotthe response that they were
hoping for in terms of bookings.
And I thought to myself, like,wow, like one week, There's
going to be a lot of failures inyour eyes in the coming future,

(11:37):
if, if within a week, you don'thave a, a successful business.
So, you're absolutely right.
You know, you do got to put inthat work and it's great to hear
that you went out of your wayto, figure out kind of just test
things out and, put them up.
So at this point, you still hadyour full time job, right?

Still, yeah, still full time.
And

when you, when that couple approached you to
shoot their wedding, what wasgoing through your mind in terms
of, were you ready to, to leaveyour job that day?
or what, what was the thoughtprocess?

No, it was, at that stage, I was, still just going
with it and thinking, wow, thatthat's what a compliment that
somebody wants me to shoot theirwedding.
So that was still the thing, ifyou've got one booking in nine
months time, you're not gonna,in your right mind going on
Monday morning and hand yournotice in and leave your job.
Um, but I knew that that, thatwas in the place.

(12:24):
And before I got to that point,I had done a few more had come
along.
so by the time I did that firstone, I had about four more,
following months, a few monthsafter that.
And it was there at that pointwhen I had sort of five or six,
I thought, right, I'm at thepoint now where, I'm busy enough
as it is anyway with, with thechildren, with work is not even
a nine to five job.
It was a ridiculously busy,executive role.

(12:48):
I'm going to either need to,artificially stop It.
It may be what a number, 10 ayear perhaps is the most I could
reasonably do while not makingmyself ill with too much, work
at the weekend, having nodowntime, or need to go, from 10
to a lot more than 10, if I'mgoing to make it something that
I leave my job for.

(13:08):
And so that's what I decided todo.
I thought, well, I've seemed tostumble onto something.
It's something I love doing.
I'd love, when I woke up.
In the morning to go and shoot awedding.
I felt that kind of feeling youget when you do the first job
that you love when you'reyounger.
And I hadn't had that for a longtime.
it was addictive and I wanted todo that.
And so I decided to think,right, how can I make that?

(13:30):
put that in center stage ratherthan going back to work on
Monday morning and, goingthrough the motions of that part
of my life.
And so it was just what a, thena strategy of how to build up
from the 10 or so I had up tothe 30 or 40 bookings that I
would need to provide this, anequivalent level of income that
I had before.

Right, right.
So during this whole process,you're obviously still very new
to photography and you're tryingto learn as much as possible.
And I know that you said thatyou learn a lot by doing, but
were there any other sources ofeducation that you had to master
your skills as a photographer?

it was largely looking at other people's work,
I think was, think if you can inwhichever genre of photography
is your thing, I think for usall to improve, we have to be
able to appreciate what it isabout someone else's images.
And it doesn't need to besomeone that's really well
known.
It could be someone that's theirfirst image they posted.
You think, wow, I really lovethat part about that image.

(14:26):
And to understand what you'reseeing, why you think that's
better and understand what.
your image, your images arelacking that don't have, don't
create that feeling.
If you can understand all ofthat, then you've got everything
you need to actually start doingthe things that you're seeing.
Cause it's the same skills,right?
To be able to, to be able tocritique an image well, is the
same skills you need to actuallycreate an image that's got all
those positive points in it.

(14:47):
So I did a lot of that lookingaround and thinking, right, I
can see that my stuff's okay, itdoesn't really communicate a
story as such, and my editing,ah, when you see other people's
editing, wow, it just jumps fromthe page.
So I, I started just listing thethings that I needed to know.
As I said, time was short.
So if it was, right, people areusing Photoshop.

(15:09):
I've got no idea how to usePhotoshop.
Next time I'm on a train and I'mgoing to a meeting, that's what
I will do.
I'll, I'll spend that hourlooking at a couple of YouTube
videos, working out to usePhotoshop.
So by the time I get to themeeting, do all that stuff, But
I've also then acquired thatskill of, that I can go back and
take some shots, put them inPhotoshop and try and recreate
some of the same looks that I'dseen.
So that was always useful.

(15:29):
I've never been one for books.
I can read, um, but I've neverbeen, I've never been, I've
never been one that thinks,right, I'm going to find, you
know, read, read a seminal bookon photography or anything like
that.
I probably should have done, butthat's not the way that my
brain's wired up.
So it's mostly trial and error,and that was shooting every
opportunity I could.
In a commercial sense.

(15:49):
Well, I wasn't particularlyinterested in doing loads of
shots of the cat because Ididn't really think that that
was going to give me anyparticular feedback, but there
are loads of other opportunitieslike, every small business needs
photos of their products andthey don't necessarily want to
pay for it, but then you don'tnecessarily need to be paid for
it.
So if they do, so for, for ages,people's birthday and Christmas
presents were the things thatpeople were making that I was

(16:12):
taking their photos of and thatwas how we you know, But that
and that's still being rewardedfor what you're doing and you're
getting feedback plus you canrefer to their website to show
your work off and those otherthings.
There's some local historyrenovations going on near me
where they were renovating avery old gatehouse to an old
mansion.
So I volunteered to be thephotographer for that.

(16:33):
So that was something for abouta year that I did, just charting
its development from like a ruinto a space that's now used for
conferences and all sorts ofthings.
Again, didn't get paid, but theexposure you get in the paper.
And on TV because they'reshowing all the photos and you
get a credit every time it'sinvaluable.
So some of that stuff you justcan't buy that kind of marketing
sometimes.

Yeah.
And it just feels good.
I get that.
I totally get that.
So I want to go back to thatfirst couple who approached you
to shoot their wedding.
Okay.
I want to know, how was it thatthey found you?
I want to know, so how youbooked them, were you nervous
and how did it turn out?

they met me at the gallery.
So I was exhibiting this work.
So we talked about that and Idid explain, I am pretty bullish
in what I will go for.
But I'm not going to sellmyself.
I'm not going to sell somethingI don't have.
So I did, I was open with themand said, I haven't shot a
wedding before.
But I think I can, I think I cando it.
And.
I said, you can see that, youknow, if you like the work that
you're looking at now, then, soI was selling, managing

(17:32):
expectations from the outset,but also at the same time, I
couldn't afford to be that guythat's doing 200, 300 free
weddings, whatever, becausethat's never then going to get
me to where I need to go.
Yes.
and even at that point, timewas, my time is so limited.
I'm not going to be doing fouror five days of work for free.

(17:52):
You know, I just don't havetime.
There's, you know, for a start,my partner would say, we've got
quite a lot of stuff here youcould do for four or five days
if you don't want to be paid.
You know, um, so, I manage theirexpectations, but all the while
selling the fact that I have gotan eye that they obviously like.
I've got a style that they likefrom my, my work.
And then, yeah, it was to then alot of researching to find out,

(18:14):
right, how do you book a couplefor a wedding?
How, what do you take paymentfor?
All up front, you take adeposit.
What's the contract look like?
And, how'd you manage theworkflow of that wedding, the
appointments, luckily again, formy own, for my, the career that
I was still in then meetings,workflow management and
everything else.
It is, is fairly, something Iwas, I was familiar with.

(18:37):
So.
I've put down what I wouldn't, Iprobably wouldn't call it a
contract, but put down what Ithought was, should be my terms
document.
This is what you're going toget.
And took that booking.
So I took that 20 percent forthe fee.
I think it was, 900 pounds, Ithink.
I'd say about 1, 000

How did that wedding turn out?
When you shot it, you mentionedearlier that you haven't wanted
to go back and look at it.
I totally understand that.
I'm sure a lot of other peopledo.
but did they react to thephotos?

they loved them.
And I was really pleased.
They really loved them.
the venue still, you do use acouple of the photos for their,
on their website.
I think it went well.
I was, it was a beautiful venue.
I've been there several timessince.
So I was dealt a pretty goodhand opening hand.
It's a lovely, it's a prettyvenue.
It was a gorgeous blue day.
So it was the one of the threedays in the year here that it's

(19:26):
like that.
So it was an outdoor ceremony,which two years ago was still
relatively rare in the UKbecause There's different rules
to get the weather and thelicensing.
You can't just get marriedanywhere in the UK.
You have to have to get alicense for a particular
building And so if it's a niceday, if you haven't licensed the
bit of the garden then you can'tget married outside.
Oh my goodness.

(19:47):
So so it was um, yeah And I'vegot some shots now that I think
are probably a little bitcheesy.
but There were some that Ithought, well, I'm just going to
try this.
It might not work.
And I think that's reallyimportant in whatever genre of
photography, if you want to dosomething a bit different,
you've just got to try somestuff.
And, especially once all thesafer shots are in the bag, just
try some crazy stuff.

(20:07):
And probably two thirds of itwon't work, but occasionally
you'll get something that justreally works well.
And I think on that one, it was,uh, I was trying to get a shot
of the bride and groom and somebridesmaids, beyond the venue,
but in the way was this, thisold, I think it was a Cadillac,
an old fifties, Cadillac thatthey, they use.
And I completely messed thefocus up and focused on the word

(20:27):
Cadillac of this car.
And they were in the backgroundout of focus.
And that was the front of thealbum, sort of, and it's just a
happy accident.
but if you, you know, if you'reup for just playing with things
and seeing what comes out ofthose sorts of accidents, I
think that's really useful.
Right.
But yeah, it was great.
I did the album for them, tookit round.
they sat down and they, theywere happy that they've referred
me to other people.
So I have, I have picked up abooking from them.

(20:48):
So I don't think it was just lipservice.
I think they were quite happy,but I'm sure looking back on it,
they probably, um, Could havegot a better photographer for
their first, you know, if they'dlooked

around but hey, you know, it's too late now
So after that first wedding Didyou know at that moment that you
wanted to take weddingphotography and photography full
time to eventually leave yourjob?

Yeah, I had tried all sorts of, photography at
that point.
So I was, I had this wedding fora while booked in, but all the
while I was thinking I'd love,you know, I love music, so I'd
love to do band photography.
So I was doing all sorts ofthings like live events, some
baby stuff, but thepracticalities of it are, if you
want to earn serious money,then, weddings is where it's at.

(21:35):
And I think, certainly it's notthe only place it's at, but it's
one of the easiest places tosort of get a foot in and start,
it's where most of us are goingto buy photography for as well.
You know, it's for a wedding.
We're likely, less likely to getour own headshots done or
anything like that.
so that, that's why I decided toput my focus and that's when I
started.
Once I thought I'd, I love thatplace for the wedding.

(21:58):
I was nervous.
especially now looking back,then I had my Nikon D750, a 50
mil lens and a 7300.
And that was it.
No backup, nothing, you know,nothing.
So, looking back, I think Iprobably should have been more
nervous than I was, because ifsomething had gone wrong, I
would have struggled to havefulfilled that task.
But I don't think that'sparticularly unusual.
I think probably a lot of usare, I like that to start

(22:20):
because you don't want to go outand buy two cameras.
from the outset when you can'treally afford one.

I don't know how big it is, over in the UK,
but I know here in, the US,there's a lot of services where
you can, uh, rent camera gear,lots of lenses and bodies.
If you could go back in time,would you have rented, a second
body in less?
Yeah,

yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, absolutely.
it's something that, that Istill, have never done.
And I think I probably couldhave saved myself.
over the last three years ofbuying lenses thinking, yeah,
I'm not going to switch camerasystem, selling those, the
amount you lose each time.
And at the time as well,shooting on a, a 70 to 300.

(22:59):
You know, 4.
5 to 5.
6, thank goodness.
It was a bright day because I'dhave, um, much better would have
been to, yeah, just to, to renta 2.
8, you know, 7, 200.
I don't know why I didn't, but Ijust figured that I've got what
I need and I'll limp along.
I think I did bring a compactcamera with me.
My partner's camera just to, isa backup.
I think they're sailing a bitclose.

Save a few bucks.
I got that.
So after that first wedding, Iwanted to know, when and how you
made the decision to go fulltime and how can the listeners
know when it's the rightdecision to go full time?

Well, I think the, there's, it's all about having a
strategy and I, decided, um,after that first one when I had
a few more in the pipeline, Ithought right this I want to try
and see if I can do this fulltime and make a decent income
from it.
I didn't know at that time ifthat was going to be successful,
if I could do that, but I knewthat I was going to try to do
it.
So you have to have that as yourlong term aim.

(23:55):
The, whether you want to do it,I think is, is a really
important decision because asyou know, and lots of people
listening will know as well thatonce you do go into, making it
more of a serious thing, then itkind of gets a bit less fun, you
know, and, and now when the kidsare doing something pretty cool
in the garden, or there's abeautiful sunset, I think,

(24:16):
right, can I grab my camera?
I think, oh, forget it, can't bebothered, you know, because I
know that all those images wouldjust go to the back of thousands
and thousands of wedding images,I've still got to add it, so
there is that side of it, If youwant to make it a full time
thing because you want to shootmore photos, it might not be the
right thing to do because that'sprobably the one thing you don't
do is shoot more of what you dodo more of is on Facebook all

(24:38):
the time, emailing everybody,editing lots and lots of stuff.
the actual shooting bit becomesquite a small, a small portion
of the day.
but I think it, That's not tosay that if you love taking
photos, if you could then berewarded for doing that and all
the surrounding stuff that doesit, that is a great feeling.
and I really wanted to havethat.
And I, and I knew that, I had agood chance of doing that.
So for me, it was then workingout what sort of time period I

(25:01):
would need to do that.
I knew it wasn't going to take,I couldn't do it in a year.
I also knew that I couldn't take10 I couldn't just wait for
referrals.
It's like you said earlier,Raymond, you can't just get some
nice images and put them outthere and expect people to come
and say, Hey, can you be ourphotographer as well?
Because it very rarely happenslike that, especially when
you're starting.

(25:21):
It's like an exponential kind ofthing, isn't it?
There's, if you've not done manyweddings, there's not many
people that have seen you workthat are going to, When you've
done when you've done 500weddings is quite easy because
there's thousands of people thatyou've met and spoken to and
that know your name.
So for me, it was a case ofworking out how to do that in
the quickest way possible.
And that was Facebookadvertising.

(25:42):
So I put a lot of effort for meinto Facebook to just get as
many bookings as possible, andstart to see, when those started
to come in, right?
And if I'm getting two bookingsa month, how long is it going to
be before my pipelines?
I start looking at what thatincome might be in the next 12
months, next 24 months.
At what point is that going to,you know, equal my current

(26:03):
salary because that's the pointthen that you start to plan to
move from one to the other

Okay.
So if somebody's listening rightnow and they want to eventually
leave their full time job thenumber one thing that they need
to consider is they need to comeup with a plan of how they're
going to Replace their currentincome, which is what it sounds
like what you just said, right?

Yeah.
Okay.
So

when I You I get, and I know that I told you
this before we started, but Iget a lot of emails from people
asking to come on to the show.
And usually, these people aretrying to sell some sort of new
course or something else to thebeautiful people of the beginner
photography podcast.
Right.
So I always ask a followupquestion and just to make sure

(26:47):
that they are legit.
Right.
So when I read about yoursuccess, I asked you, why do you
think photographers struggle somuch to get bookings?
Why do they struggle so much?

Yeah, and I think that's, because you have to
appreciate that you do need goodwork, you need to have good work
there.
Most people that want to do itas a career, whether it's
wedding or whatever, you wouldhope that they've got the
quality, they've got the skillsthere, but there's no point.
You can be the best photographerin the world.
If you're not getting your workin front of the right person at

(27:20):
the right time, then they're notgoing to book you.
And that's where the other sideof the coin is the marketing and
conversely, if you're not agreat photographer, but you're a
great marketeer, you just give,you're just putting poor quality
work in front of everybody.
So you're, you're wasting yourmoney.
So it, it does need both ofthose.
And I think, you can work onthose separately.
So if, if you can identify whatyou need to improve your game

(27:42):
technically to get, your imageis looking better and start a
course of action to improvethat.
Now, what I did was a list ofthings that I needed.
I wanted to improve in my work.
I didn't have time to do it allstraight away.
Now, a lot of people will havefull time jobs that are very
difficult in the softwareindustry.
As a manager, you've got a bitmore advantage that your is desk

(28:04):
based.
So during lunch, you can maybedo half an hour of, look at
Googling and reading stuff.
A lot of jobs, you just don'thave that.
Luxury.
if you're a builder, if you're,whatever it is, you know what,
whatever you're doing.
so I had to, work, I created alist of, and I used a, an online
platform to do it.
just a, a list of the thingsthat I thought I needed to know,
how long I think I would need,and just try and have that list

(28:27):
of tasks.
So when you're sat on a bus,when you're sat on the train,
you think, well, I've got anhour.
Let's pick something off the,off the list.
And that's You're then makingreally good use of your time
because it's so easy otherwiseto sit just watching tv and you
have to be mindful of the factyou have got a partnership with
your partner if you're in ifyou're in a relationship And you
have to be protect that as well,you know be precious with that
but there is a lot of time wherewe're just kind of In a standby

(28:49):
mode that we could actuallyyeah, what wasting time.
the other advantages of having alist like that that's
prioritized and you know whatthe important stuff is, is that
every day, most of us are goingto have half an hour every day
that we could do that, even ifit's in the bath and we careful
not to drop our tablets in thebath.
you've got half an hour andyou've, but you feel then that
you're making progress.
So sometimes when you've reallyflat out at work and you've got

(29:12):
this dream of being aphotographer and it just
sometimes seem impossible.
But if you've just sent oneemail that day, or if you've
just learned about focusstacking that day, you feel that
you're a little bit furtherforward.
And that's really important, Ithink, for the to keep that
drive and keep the momentumgoing.

So when it comes to the booking side of
things, I think we talked alittle bit about this earlier is
the reasons why I thinkbeginners have a hard time
making the leap is that theydon't know where bookings are
going to come from.
When I read an article, fromyou, that was all about Facebook
advertising.
And we just talked aboutFacebook advertising there.

(29:49):
Is that where you focused all ofyour attention to get your
bookings?
And if so, can you kind of walkme through an example of a
Facebook ad strategy?

Absolutely.
Yeah, it was, I would say thatcertainly in the, I mean, even
now, probably half my bookingsare through Facebook, Facebook
advertising.
In those days, it was allthrough that because, as I said,
those other streams like Ihadn't, you know, I wasn't using
Instagram then referrals werecoming through.
So it was all about Facebook.
way that I do this, as I've saidin that, article that you

(30:20):
referenced there is, justcreate, cause we were all used
to as our, if we've got abusiness page or if you have, if
you've got a business page foryour photography, even if it's a
hobby, quite often, we've gotthat you create a post with some
nice images on it, a bit oftext.
You post that as usual to yourpage.
The main mistake a lot of peoplemake when they first put a foot
into the world of Facebookadvertising and paid advertising

(30:44):
is to boost the post by clickingboost post.
Cause you'd have thought thatdoes exactly what you want,
right?
But it does the, it's crap.
It does.
It.
It doesn't do it.
It doesn't do what you want, itdoesn't know that you are trying
to target brides, potentialbrides.
All it does is just send thatpost in front of a mixture of
people that may want that, thatrespond well to adverts.

(31:05):
So that could be a 16-year-oldboy, could be someone who's 90.
It does, it is just somebodythat, that is gonna be clicking
stuff.
So you don't want that.
So you've made your post.
You then have to go intoFacebook's advert manager.
now this is a.
Pretty complicated platform, butit, most of it, you just don't
need to touch.
if you go into there, it's lesscomplicated than it looks,

(31:26):
because all you want to do istarget the, what you can do
through face through the admanager that you can't do
through boost post is to targetan audience of the right people.
So you can't shape that, thataudience who you want to send
your advert to.
So through, the ad manager, youcan select, women.
I don't know what it's like inthe U.
S., but in the U.
K., blokes are never going tobook a photographer, maybe once.

(31:48):
I think I've taken two bookingsever.
so there's no point.
though you might think, well,there's some that will, but
there's no point spending halfyour budget to target them.
You want to keep it asconcentrated with the right
group.
So women between 25 that that'swhat I tend to do.
depending on what your marketis, if you're a landscape
photographer or family, thoseare going to all be completely

(32:10):
different.
So for weddings I'm talkingabout, and then you go, go
through and say, I want thisaudience.
It starts off when I do that,you set a, geographical area.
So for me, that's about 80 milesaround where I live.
I don't mind traveling.
Some people that don't want totravel set a smaller area.
It doesn't matter.
that gives me about 200, 000people.
I then say, I'm only interestedin those women in that group

(32:33):
that also have their status asengaged.
So that then brings it down toabout 40, 000 and that's then a
much more concentrated group ofpeople.
So you put, that, that's youraudience.
Rather than creating a new ad inthe creative bit of it, you just
select the post that youpreviously created and you're
going to now just, spread thatpost around to that audience.

(32:54):
And it means in their feed, it'sgoing to come up with that
advert.
so the advert, um, In that post,there's three things you need is
your best photos, so some reallynice images that are going to
grab attention, some text sopeople know what's going on.
what you're doing, you didwedding photography.
I have always put in a, anoffer, even if it's 5%, 10%,
doesn't matter.
Put your prices up by 10 10percent offer in.

(33:16):
But if you don't put an offerin, I've tried this, you won't
get anything.
So people on Facebook arelooking for a bargain.
add a call to action.
so you're saying if you wouldlike a no commitment quote,
contact me here, PM me, whateverit is.
And that, so people are really,it's really obvious what they
do.
I firmly believe.
That seems to be anti everythingin this space that you shouldn't

(33:37):
push people to your websitebecause I think you've got them
on that platform Don't let themgo Don't walk out the door onto
another onto somewhere where youmight never see them again Yeah,
keep them in there engage withthe messenger keep them into
there get their email but keepin touch with my messenger and
that that's the way that I workit and the other thing I have
found that you do have to Andthis is tough for a lot of
people starting out.

(33:57):
You do have to invest Itobviously costs to, push these
adverts around.
and you can go from, I think,$1to a, to with, with no upper
limit.
It just, you know, it will justsend it to more and more people.
There seems to be in the UK, atleast when I've tried it for$5 a
day, that it doesn't even getlike a quarter of 20.
It just seems, it, it, you don'tget any feedback at all from it

(34:18):
really.
There seems like there's a lowlimit that below which you're
wasting your$5 a day.
I tend to do about$20 a day.
for seven days.
Now that is quite a lot.
but what I do find is a lot ofus will quite often go and spend
500 on a lens that we've got,and unless you've got any means
to make that for that lens tomake you money, then it's just
a, you know, it's because that'snice thing to buy, isn't it?

(34:40):
It's something you own.
Whereas something likeadvertising, it feels like it
might be, you're not gettinganything concrete from it, but
it's worth trying that 20 a day,seven days, five days, whatever
your limit is.
whatever the budget is.
And I typically do 20 for 10days and I will normally get
between seven and 10 bookings,wedding bookings from that.

(35:02):
Now that what's that 30, 300,300 pounds, 30 pounds of
booking.

So we're talking a little bit about the
the facebook ad strategy thatyou have there and how much to
spend on these ads.
Yeah, Okay, I guess I got twoquestions.
First, in the ad that you have,you say, obviously, give some
sort of offer, right?
But is this like a general adthat you're saying, like, look,
Nick Church Photography, hereare some sample images.
If you're interested for yourwedding date, here's a 10

(35:30):
percent off or 20 percent off orwhatever, contact me now.
Or is it something more thanthat?

It's a target, so, because my, the advert, Text has
to be targeting, sorry, has tobe tuned to the audience that
you're, sending it to.
So I'm sending it to women areabout to be engaged, that
they're engaged.
So it's all about weddings.
It's very clearly stating thatI'm a wedding photographer.
You know, I wouldn't send, Iwouldn't use the same content

(35:56):
and stuff too.
If I was doing an architecturalpost, that would be a completely
different set of parametersthere.
So it's all about weddings.
If you get in touch, I'll beable to give you a quote and
you'll get 10 percent off if youquote this code and you make a
code up.
so people are very clear whatyou're offering, what you're
going to provide them, whattheir images are going to look
like, because you can show theimages there, and how to get in

(36:17):
touch.
And you know, you're one clickaway and people, they get in
touch.
Often people will leave commentsin the post, they'll comment
their partner, they'll commentfriends or family, and that's
great as well because like Isaid you do have to go and meet
people halfway, you can't justsit back and wait for those
emails to come in any more thanyou could just put up a website
and wait for people to come andcome by and book you.

(36:38):
So each of those people thatcomment you want to go in and
message each of those saying,Hey, thanks for commenting.
Thanks for showing interest inmy post.
Would you like a quote?
Some people say, Oh, that wouldbe great.
And then book the next day.
But you think, well, why didn'tyou then contact me?
But people just need that bit ofa shove sometimes.
And if you're polite and you'renot being spamming and you're
not bothering them, then peopleare really happy for that.

(37:01):
And, sometimes they go quiet andyou catch up with them a bit
later.
my workflow system reminds me afew days later, just ping them
again and just say, hi, youhaven't got back to me.
And after a few times you justlet it go because you're
diminishing returns.
But occasionally they'll say,thanks for keeping in touch.
We were looking for a venue.
we've now got it.
Are you free?
Can we, you know, and again,you're off again and you're
having that, that dialogue withthem.

(37:22):
the other side benefit is thatwith this post going around
people, a lot of people likeyour page as well.
So when I put in this.
20 a day for 10 days, 200, 200.
So I will get, seven, 10bookings or so, which is, great,
you know, really great return,you know, compare with

(37:42):
advertising compared withstanding at a wedding fair all
day.
It's amazing.
this is why I use it so, sofrequently, but the side benefit
is you also pick up, I pick up30, 50.
page a day while the advert'srunning, on top of the usual
kind of organic people that comeinto your page.
so you're also boosting thataudience of people that the next

(38:03):
post you do, which you're notpaid for, hitting those people
again, they're the right people.
So you're improving the richnessof your, the people that are
liking your page because you'refilling it with engaged.
Women,

of course,

as a wedding photographer, that's who you
want to see if you'rearchitectural, you want to fill
it with architects or landscapeon people that love art and buy
art.
And, you get, you get it.
It

makes sense.
That's a great strategy rightthere.
And it's definitely, I'm notsure if it's more than what we
would pay here in the U S I do alot of Facebook advertising,
but, I think my strategy is alittle bit different.
I think that yours is a lot moredirect and I think that's why it
works so well.
And I think that I'm, I'm goingto have to give it a try.
because like you said, I mean,you don't know until you try
something.
so thank you.
You have to try it.

You have to try it.
I mean, it's just, you have,like I said, have to give it
good enough go that it's got achance of success and that where
I see a lot of people, and I've,I've done this myself and this
is, What I'm hoping to helppeople with is not to make the
same mistakes I've done is I wasinitially thinking I don't want
to spend 20 a day.
That's a lot of money.
That's there's quite a few beersI can buy for that.

(39:03):
But so you put down 55 quid andit doesn't work, you don't get
anything, so you haven't reallygiven it a good try, try it for,
shorten the number of daysbecause the way the algorithm
works is it will give your ad tothe people it thinks that
Facebook thinks are most likelyto respond to it.
So those first couple of daysare going to be the best
performing days anyway.
So shorten it to three days ifyou're limited on budget and
just see, see what happens.

(39:24):
If nothing happens.
Stop it.
All right.
You say you spent 75, but you'vegained knowledge that that what
you did then didn't work.
So you're not going to do itagain.
And that's a really useful thingto have.

Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
So, can you kind of give me someof your favorite tools aside
from Facebook advertising,favorite tools and techniques
that you used in the softwaredevelopment industry and apply
them directly to photography toboost your success?

Yeah, I mean, I'm, by nature, probably the most
disorganized person.
I think I know, so that would bea

close second.

Well, I'd love to have a, disorganized off, but
let's see your office lookstidier than mine.
That's just one

direction.

so I do need to have these, this idea of a
second brain.
I need to have a workflowmanagement system that is
telling me when I need to book,book appointments for couples.
So that's something that I'vetaken straight from when I used
to, manage larger teams ofpeople, software developers,
projects, and customers, is justhave all that information
somewhere.
So, the one I use is kind ofcalled Lightblue Software, but

(40:28):
there's, loads of others thatare specific to Lightblue.
photography.
they just, when I get aninquiry, I get it, I put it in
there and it will then it willtrack the quotes.
It will let me prepare a quotethrough it and all the, all
those other stuff.
Now, the reason I did that isbecause I used to have a
spreadsheet when I started out,because you, you want your tools
to grow with you.
I think

you

don't want to splash out on expense that you
don't know you're going to getvalue from.
So initially a spreadsheet, whenyou've got five weddings is
fine.
You're not going to forget them.
What I had done was probably letthat grow to a point where the
cracks are starting to show inthat system.
I had a spreadsheet and Igoogled a calendar that was
linked together.
And I was in a meeting actuallywith, some colleagues from San
Diego and Mumbai and old job.

(41:10):
This was, I had a text messageon my phone saying, hi, Nick,
we're at the venue.
We hope you're on your way.
And I went white.
You can imagine.
I went white as a sheet.
Everyone said, are you okay?
And I was frantic.
I didn't have an, Oh, whathappened was a phone didn't know
who it was.
So I was.
I was, I'd got the phone number.
I was reverse engineeringthrough my email to see if I

(41:30):
could search for that phonenumber.
Eventually found out that it wasa venue visit with them, not the
actual wedding.
And so I, I did that noise andthen, figured, right, this
evening I need to buy somebetter software that's going to
be able to track things moreresponsibly.
Cause I'm just not, so that,that's been really useful.
The other thing that I swear byis, a system called Kanban,

(41:52):
which is a Japanese way of taskmanagement, and it's effectively
in simplest form is you writethings on post it notes and you
put them on your wall, but asonline versions, obviously, or
apps for your desktop, but youjust have columns of to do.
Stuff I need to do, things arein progress, things that are
done.
And it seems so stupidly simple,but what we do without having

(42:16):
that is we start lots ofdifferent tasks.
We don't ever really finishthem.
We've got loads of things on thego.
And when you've got loads ofthings on the go, you're really
inefficient.
and you get a rabbit hole.
So you think, well, I need to doa website.
I'll need some images.
I'll be back and take someimages of that before you know
it.
You've forgotten about thewebsite and you're, you're off
taking photos.
What, what Kanban lets you do isyou just say.

(42:36):
going to do, I'm going toimprove SEO on my website.
You put it on a post it note,you put it on the wall.
Then you, the next thing yousay, right, I need to work out
focus decking.
Right?
So you, you put that on there,you put it on the wall, you
think for my business, is thatmore important than doing SEO or
less important?
You think it's probably lessimportant.
And so the, what you end up withis this to do list of very well

(42:56):
prioritized things.
So you never look at that again,apart from the top one, when
you've got some time, you takethe first card off, you put it
in your in progress column, andyou work on that task until it's
finished.
So it might be that you're goingto improve SEO.
So you don't do anything elseuntil you finish that thing.
And once it's done, you put itinto completed and the complete

(43:17):
column fills up and you get areal sense of achievement
because you're moving stuffthrough.
the other thing it's, it'sreally useful for is, you don't
gold plate things.
So things like website design isa classic thing that if you
think, right, I need to approvethe website to make it look
better.
That's really difficult.
If you've not said, well, how,when do you stop that task?
Cause you could carry on doingthat forever.
So you want, you want to be abit more specific about what,

(43:38):
what is it, right?
I need to resize the imagesbecause they're slow to load.
And I put just that bit on acard and stick it on there.
And then you can do those verytangible things and they're
quite, and then they becomesmaller as well.
So you can keep that throughputreally good.
So that's, that's been anabsolute godsend because, when I
the full time job still I'd madethe decision that I was going

(43:59):
to, try and do this as a career.
I knew all the things I need todo.
I need to get bookings.
I had to do an advert and youhave so many ideas, especially
for me.
It's early in the morning.
You get like a load of ideascoming to your head and the
worst thing to do is then startworking on those ideas before
you've thought, are they goingto cost me a fortune?
Is it going to take me months ofeffort?

(44:20):
Is it actually as important?
Because the next day, actually,what seemed like a good idea
yesterday, you think, actually,I don't think that's a very good
idea at all.
And if you spent, if you didspend yesterday doing that
thing, you've just wasted a daydoing something.
So when you have these ideas, Icould just put them on a card
and you separate your thinkingtime from your doing time.
And that's a really useful thingwhen you've got.

(44:41):
time constrained, but whenyou're time constrained, like
when you've got full time job,you wanted to say, right, I've
got half an hour to dosomething.
Let's pick from that list.
Then when you get all theseother ideas, you just stick them
in the list.
Do them at the right time, butyou don't divert from what
you're doing.
And it just keeps you veryfocused on, on what you need to
do.
And over time, when you'resaying, well, I need to get 10
more bookings.

(45:02):
I need to, have a second shooterin place.
You can start to see thesethings and you think, right, you
can see how long it's taken todo each of these things.
You can start to get an idea howlong it's going to take you to
get through all of that stuff.
If that stuff is the things youneed to do to go full time.
And you could start to thenschedule.
Your life, you know what whatthat pathway is going to look

(45:22):
like and for me It became clearabout a year before and I did
have a year where it wasinsanely busy So I did 40
weddings in a summer We're in ayear

on top of your job

and it nearly killed me.
And so this time last year waswhen I thought, right, I can't
do that again.
Now's the time the systems I hadin place tracking my pipeline,
which was based on actualbookings, but also what I
thought might come in,prediction based on the year
before when that gets a certainfigure, I thought right now,
now's the time to do it becauseI can't, do another year anyway,
so you have to do it and you doget to that point where it's

(45:57):
deal or no deal, there's no wayback.
And I think that's exciting timewhen you're at that point, I
think, right, I'm just going togo for it now because you can't
not, if you've got bookings,you've got 50 bookings in ahead
of you, you can't continue doinga full time job and not doing
that,

right?
Of course.
That was a very, clear way ofdescribing exactly kind of the
workflow process that needs tobe done throughout an entire
booking So so for sharing thatand just the idea of kanban is
something that I found I thinkprobably two or three years ago
and I can attest to the power ofit and how it can just organize

(46:31):
almost everything if you reallyspend time to put in the work,
but I want to know now that youhave gone full time You You've
left your job, you now work fromhome, you've now gone full time.
What is a misconception thatpeople have about going full
time?

I think the, you probably find that you work
longer.
You're putting more hours inthan you did in a, nine to five
job for sure.
Because The time when you'vebeen working either out
shooting, taking photos orediting, you get back five, six,
seven o'clock and you think,right, now's the time.
I'm going to just chill out nowand spend some time with my

(47:06):
partner.
That's the time that everyoneelse is sitting down, but that's
so everyone else is thinking,Hey, let's just message that
photographer and see if they cantake a landscape for our wall,
you know?
And so you, then you sit downand your phone's going crazy.
And so you do have tocompartmentalize your time a
bit, which is extremelydifficult when.
You have a potential bookingcoming in.
so you do, you lose a bit oftime, but what I love it is that

(47:29):
you are in absolute control ofsuccess and failure, and if you
do a shoot, that's, you're nothappy with, you've got no one
else to blame.
You look in the mirror and youcan say, well, that's, if you
learn something from it.
Then it's still a positivething.
You think, wow, I didn't dealwith the poor light very well at
all in that shoot.
I need to up my game.
I need to do this next time.
And that's been, and that'sreally productive because you

(47:49):
can then go straight into yournext shoot with a refreshed
attitude about what you're goingto do differently.
So that's one thing.
I think the other side of, as Isaid, it being that you're just
going to be a creative that,sits there in coffee shops and
edits and all those things,sometimes it is just really hard
graft of plowing through emails,messaging clients, doing loads

(48:10):
of editing, advertisingcampaigns, and those sorts of
things.
It's, a huge number of otherthings that I didn't imagine I'd
be doing as much of as I am.
But the reward is that it'ssomething that's mine and it,
and it's, taking the businessfurther forward.
and that's, yeah, that, that'ssomething I could never give up
and I do wish I'd done it yearsbefore I really do.
Yeah.

Oh really?
Wow.
That's really interesting tohear.
But I hear the exact same thingfrom a lot of other
photographers.
they have this lofty idea thatonce they go full time, it's
just free time except for whenyou're shooting, that you can
dedicate all your time toshooting, which there's a lot
more time that you can'tdedicate.
But like you said, it is,there's so much more that goes
into it than just shooting.
And it's not even just likeother photographers, like even

(48:52):
though that's like the dream,like, Oh, that'd be so great.
it's everybody.
Like every time we go out todinner with like my wife's
friends, one of my wife'sfriends made a joke the other
day that I don't work.
She's like, but you don't, butyou don't work.
Oh my gosh.
I felt like, you know, triggeredright there.
I was like, well, did you just,you have no idea, but it's that
misconception.
And, I can't blame her forthinking that.

(49:13):
but once you figure out what itis that you're doing and how to
do it proficiently enough toearn an income from it.
Like you said, there's nothingbetter in the world than that
feeling of being in control ofyour own success.
So, uh, thank you for sharingthat.
I want to know, if you had to goback to 2014, right?
That flight that you took whenyou were trying to learn the

(49:34):
camera.
If you could go back to thatdate, is there something that
you would tell yourself?
Is there something that todayNick Church would tell that Nick
Church, that could help themalong their journey, to get here
faster?

What would I say?
yeah, I would certainly, for awhile I was convinced that,
going into, you know, do I gointo technical stuff, but I was
convinced that this Micro FourThirds, Um, I knew that this
camera was going to be fine andfor everything, and I invested
too heavily in lenses for it.
I'm thinking I need, I need azoom lens for it, for a decent
zoom lens for weddings and thatkind of thing.

(50:06):
And even before the firstwedding, once my knowledge had,
improved a bit, I thought thisis going to be quite hard, to
use this camera.
And where we are now withmirrorless is a quite different
place than we were in 2013,2014.
So, yeah, that was one thing Ithink, I think is take time to
think, right, what do I need?
if I'm going to buy a piece ofequipment, what problem am I
expecting that lens to solve?

(50:28):
What is it that's got, if I'm,and that that's even, I think
it's easier to get an actor tohave that problem when you're
running your own business,because you think, Oh, I
probably could do the new laptopthis year, but it does that
laptop.
is there a problem with thecurrent one that you're not
solving?
Or do you just wanna buy a newlaptop?
It's kind of cool to, and I'm asucker for that and I do
struggle with that quite a lot.
And, so that's something that Iwould definitely try and start

(50:51):
off without having that problem.
just trying to buy like

as basic as possible is that it

just get the tools that you need, work out, what do
you need to do.
A classic example is last year Iwent to a Sony system from
Nikon, so I sold all of mylenses, bought Sony kit, which
was fabulously expensive and Ilove it, but it hasn't solved
any problems that I had.
I was doing pretty well withNikon and it's not helped me get
any more shoots.

(51:17):
It's not earned me any moremoney than I would have done
with Nikon.
It was just a cool thing to do,but not particularly sensible
from a business perspective, youknow, if there was.
if you're a travel photographerand you're shooting, scenes in
central Africa, say, and youwant to travel light, then maybe
a mirrorless system then doesmake sense.
And that does solve a problemyou've got because you haven't
got tons of stuff to get tocarry around.

(51:39):
So it's just, Horses forcourses, I think in, in who you
are and what you're trying toachieve and get the right tools
in place at the right time, nottoo early.
and a good example is, as Isaid, with having a spreadsheet,
if I'd had a huge, managementsystem from day one, then it
would have cost me, you know,the monthly fee and I've never
would have used it until thatfirst thing.

(52:00):
So it's finding the right time.
I think you do it too early ortoo late and just try to
identify when it is.

I had never even thought of it like that
way.
cause obviously picking up a CRMis, is going to be pretty
expensive to get some sort ofclient management software.
And if you don't have enough,work coming in, you probably
just going to neglect the wholesystem.
That's, that's right.
Yeah.
I never had to think about that.
So thank you.
Thank you.
As somebody who recentlystarted, right, and kind of has
gotten to where you are nowalong your journey.

(52:27):
Was there any, commonly, taughtinformation that you think is
just poor information for newphotographers to hear or learn?

Well, I, I did find that, yeah, I mean, things like
if you've got a great website,that that's the main thing, get
people to go to your website,that that's what it's all about.
It's all about SEO.
And I just don't think it is.
I don't know.
I'm not saying that if mywebsite had, better SEO and I
put more effort into it, Iwouldn't have more direct
bookings.
I may well have done, but I'vealso got to the point I am now

(52:57):
without doing that, so thatisn't as important.
I don't think, another one Ithink is, there's the, the SEO
side.
yeah, sorry, what was the, I'llask questions again, Raymond,
sorry, I've, I've got no

worries.
What are some commonly badinformation that you hear being
taught to beginners?

Right.
the other thing I heard quite alot of through forums and, just
through YouTube videos is thatdon't expect it to earn a huge
amount of money.
There's no rich photographers.
And I think that's completelyuntrue.
It just depends what.
It depends what if that's whatyour goal is.
If your goal is to make moneyfrom through photography and
you've got the right strategy inplace, then you can do that.
And, so that that's somethingthat I'm really pleased that

(53:34):
I've been able to prove wrongbecause I couldn't afford it not
to be.
as you said at the start here, Idid have a good career.
It was quite scary to leave itafter so long, you have a
security in a responsibleposition in a company, and to
leave that and just go out onyour own with something
completely different thatarguably you've.
been spending a couple of yearsworking on is really, can be

(53:55):
risky if you don't have theright strategy in place.
But I was able to get it to thatpoint that, that it was paying
the same, which had the doubleedged problem of, for one year I
was earning almost twice thesalary because the wedding
photography business was up andrunning and I was still doing
another one.
so this, the first year, lastyear was quite tough because
I've gone back, gone back, butthat's, but that's a nice

(54:16):
problem to have, right?
I mean, so yes, that's anotherthing.
and I think that you need to,you have to know Yeah, I can't
even give an example because Ididn't do this, but you have to
read the book by such and such,such and such.
And if you don't read that,you're not going to be able to
take good photos because they'llknow more.
And if you don't read them, thenyou're somehow disrespecting the

(54:37):
industry because, it's crap.
if you wanted, There's lots ofways to it.
Yes, you can do it that way oryou can decide probably possibly
because I've come from an art,more of an art background that
you probably don't want to justspend time learning how other
artists do it.
you want to work out how am Igoing to communicate what I want
to achieve in my photos?
And that might be completelydifferent.

(54:58):
And perhaps not reading the bookthat everyone reads is the right
thing to do.
So I think, so rather thansaying don't read or do read,
it's more about there isn't,there's no one way to do it.
The way that works for you isthe right way to do it.
And, everyone comes to aposition of success in any
business, loads of differentways.
That's why there's so manypeople that are multi
billionaires that have neverbeen to college.

(55:19):
that, that's why there's notjust one way to do it.

Yeah.
Right.
I mean, if there was then.
That would be the book to read,right?

Yeah.

And I'd be writing it if I could.

That's an opportunity.

I probably wouldn't read it, only because
like you, I don't pick upanything from reading, really.
I do have to go out there anddo, but I know other
photographers personally who,they've learned everything about
photography from reading books.
So, thank you for sharing thatperspective that, You really
have to be self aware, in orderto learn that you do.

And I think that's a really good way for you.
You've got to be self aware ofyour work, your photography
itself.
And that means if you caneither, pick up in other people,
what you want to do, the bits oftheir photos, you want to try
and achieve and use to give thatsame feeling, then that's great.
But also Get critique from otherpeople that who's people that

(56:10):
you trust, not just people onFacebook, when you know, they're
going to just slate your photos,regardless people that can give
you an honest appraisal of, whatyour photos are like.
I think that's something thatyou have to be quite brave.
But It's better to know beforeyou start paying for your
marketing.
That your images aren't quite upthere because you've then got
the opportunity to say, right,what can I do to get to the

(56:31):
point before you start spendingmoney, then you're just selling
the wrong products and you,you've missed that opportunity.
So that, that's reallyimportant.
I think, getting a, your ownstyle is very important as well.
And I think so it's, it'slearning from others, getting
critique, critique, but also.
Making sure that when becausethe goal for I think for most
photographers rightly is thatwhen you see a photo It's kind

(56:53):
of cool If it looks like a NickChurch Photograph or someone
else photograph and you can kindof tell Who it's taken by
because you've got a style andit takes a while for that to
happen But you can't just dothat and you can't just follow
other people either

right, right That was good.
I think if anybody's going topick up anything from this
episode, that's going to be abig piece of it right there for
sure.
So this is my last question herefor you.
And it's kind of a fun one.
I know that I say this everyepisode we've gone way over our
time.
It just, I get so excited askingquestions and talking.
I do this every time.
I apologize.
going from, from starting,having never picked up a camera

(57:28):
again, to where you are today ina very, short time.
And as somebody who, likemyself, has to do something to
be able to learn something, I'msure that you've made a few
mistakes along the way, right?
Have you ever had anembarrassing moment, on the job
that you'd be willing to share?

I, almost every, every shoot, I think there's
something.
Because, the thing that, happensalmost probably 50 percent of
the time is I forget to formatmy images before I take photos.
Okay.
So I've always got bunches,bunch of cards.
So I know that I do this.
So I've always got, maybe half adozen, 64 gig cards in my pocket
because I know I do this all thetime.

(58:05):
So I just forget to format them,record a hundred images on card.
And then it runs out of space.

And you're like, what?

And you can neither format the card then because
you've got the images.
So you have to swap it out, butnot lose that image.
Oh, and then when you get back,I've got 15 cards from a shoot
because I've done it on bothcameras.
so that happens frequently.

have you ever accidentally formatted a card
that, uh, had an undeliveredwedding on it?

I haven't, I haven't done that.
Um, thankfully.
I've knocked my camera into lowquality JPEG mode for some,
dancing shots at the end of theday.
And I was pleased that I did itin that last hour and not the
first hour, because I justdidn't notice.
So that that's one for sure.
what else?
Yeah.
Things often, because I takequite a few of my bookings
without meeting people just theway, you know about half half of

(58:50):
them.
I don't meet people so thatfirst meeting sometimes you
don't when you get to a weddingI sometimes don't know
especially if it's a bride andthey're all in the same pajamas,
right?
I don't know who's here andthere was one time where I had
spent 90 minutes shooting what Iassumed was the bride and it
turned out it wasn't and I onlypicked her up.

(59:10):
But then I thought I don't knowhow to get out of this now
without, um, making it tooobvious.
So I, I just then took loads ofphotos of all the others to try
and dilute the problem, which inhindsight, I'd been better off
saying, Oh my God, I'm sorry.
I've just, Yeah, I assumed youwere, I assumed you were the
bride, but anyway, so yeah, so Iended up with, over a thousand,
bridal prep images.

(59:31):
Oh

my God.
So

I just taken so many.
Yeah.
To try and cover up the mistake.

I can totally see myself doing that.
Absolutely.
And what's, what's bad is that Imeet with all of my couples
before the wedding.
I'm sure that I, I don't know ifit's like face blindness or like
when you show up, they're inmakeup and they look different
than when you first met them.
But I always walk in the roomlike.
Okay.
I'm not going to say anythinguntil somebody like Raymond,
like points me out and like, Oh,Hey, there you are.

(59:56):
Cause they would be the onlyone, but that would totally be
something that I would do.
That's great.
Thank you for sharing that.
Nick, like I said, we've goneover our time.
You've been incredibly graciouswith your time.
You've answered a ton ofquestions that I know that the
listeners are going to get a lotof value out of.
If they want to find more of youonline, can you share where's

(01:00:16):
the best place to do that?

Nick Church (01:00:18):
Yeah.
The best place, is the usualsuspects in my Facebook and
Instagram are both at NickChurch Photography.
So that's N I C K C H U R C HPhotography, Nick Church
Photography.
So yeah, please connect to myInsta and Facebook and any
comments or messages orquestions.
I answer every question I getbecause I know that when I was,
a couple of years ago, I had aton of questions.

(01:00:40):
And quite often you get nothingback from people and I
definitely don't want to be thatguy.
So I will always respond.
My website as well is www.
nickchurchphotography.
co.
uk.

Raymond Hatfield (01:00:50):
Okay.
I got one action item that youcan take from today's interview
with Nick Church to implementinto your own photography.
And it is this.
Get critique on your work tolearn what skills need
improvement.
You know, in this episode, Nicktalked a lot about testing and
refining.
Trying something different andthen trying it again, but trying

(01:01:11):
to get better at it.
But sometimes when you are realclose to your photography, it
can be difficult to see wherethe room for improvement is when
you feel like it all needsimproved.
There's that line that it'sdifficult to see the forest
through the trees.
And oftentimes photography feelsjust like that.
Now, there are five elements toa photograph.
There's camera settings, light,composition, moment, and

(01:01:35):
editing.
So here's the action item.
Take a handful of your favoritephotos.
Five or ten, that'll be enough.
Set a timer for ten minutes andlook at each one through those
lenses.
How are my camera settings?
Where could I improve?
How is the light in this image?
How could it be improved?
And so on.
When you do this for a handfulof images, you're going to start

(01:01:55):
to notice those patterns.
Maybe you'll realize that thecomposition, keeps coming up for
all your photos.
Well, that's good news becausenow you have direction on what
to work on first and improve.
Then I want you to take yournewfound realization and bring
it to us in the beginnerphotography podcast community.
We would love to hear from you.

(01:02:16):
And find out what youdiscovered.
Chances are you're not the onlyone struggling with it.
We can figure it out together.
So come join us by heading overto beginnerphotopod.
com forward slash group.
And that is all for today.

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Beginner to Pro in 2 years: How To Learn Photography Fast with Nick Church

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