October 10, 2024 • 41 mins
#505 In this episode of the podcast, I chat with Michael Sasser, an influential boudoir photographer dedicated to capturing natural beauty and challenging negative self-perceptions. Michael shares his journey, revealing how authenticity and emotional connection form the cornerstone of his work.
THE BIG IDEAS
- Building Trust: Creating meaningful connections with clients enhances comfort and authenticity in photos.
- Natural Beauty: Emphasizing minimal editing preserves the true essence of your subjects.
- Emotional Connection: Understanding client motivations ensures a personalized and impactful experience.
- Market Challenges: Highlight client reviews and real interactions to promote boudoir photography effectively.
PHOTOGRAPHY ACTION PLAN
- Create a Comfortable Environment: Engage in genuine conversations to understand your client's insecurities and aspirations. Show images during the shoot to build trust and create a bond.
- Focus on Natural Editing: Limit your use of Photoshop to preserve natural features, including imperfections. Improve your in-camera skills to reduce the need for heavy post-processing.
- Develop Effective Communication: Use phone calls or personal emails to deeply understand client motivations. Craft email content that addresses common client concerns and reassures them.
- Build a Robust Portfolio: Showcase a variety of authentic, minimally edited boudoir images. Include client testimonials and detailed experience stories to attract new clients.
- Implement a Strategic Booking System: Set limits on the number of shoots per month to maintain quality and manage demand. Use a waitlist to create anticipation and ensure you work with ideal clients.
RESOURCES:
Visit Michael Sasser's Website - https://sasserstillsboudoir.com/
Follow Michael Sasser on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/sasserstillsboudoir/
Sign up for your free CloudSpot Account today at www.DeliverPhotos.com
Connect with Raymond!
- Join the free Beginner Photography Podcast Community at https://beginnerphotopod.com/group
- Get your Photo Questions Answered on the show - https://beginnerphotopod.com/qa
- Grab your free camera setting cheatsheet - https://perfectcamerasettings.com/
Thanks for listening & keep shooting!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Michael Sasser (00:00):
you wouldn't go to a restaurant and expect to
(00:02):
cook your own food.
The chef does that The firstthing everybody thinks is
especially for boudoir is I'mgoing to show up.
I'm going to look like an idiotbecause I don't know how to
pose.
And so as much as I can explainto them that they don't have to
do a single thing, all they haveto do is show up.
I'm going to take care of therest is going to relieve a lot
of the pressure on them to tryand perform during the photo
(00:23):
shoot, because what they thinkis it's up to them, whether or
not their pictures are going tobe good.
whether or not your food is goodis not up to you.
It's up to the chef
Raymond Hatfield (00:31):
Hey, welcome to the Beginner Photography
Podcast.
I'm your host, Raymond Hatfield,and today we're chatting with
boudoir photographer, MichaelSasser, about creating an
emotional connection with yoursubjects to allow their true
selves to come out.
But first, the BeginnerPhotography Podcast is brought
to you by CloudSpot.
You can impress your clientswith a beautiful gallery that is
easy to view, it's easy toshare, and it's easy to download
(00:53):
on any device.
You can control your imagesizes, add watermarks, and of
course download limits as well.
So grab your free foreveraccount over at DeliverPhotos.
com and only upgrade when youare ready.
I think we can all, understandthat, being a photographer and
trying to stand out in asaturated market such as Los
Angeles is no easy task, butMichael has been able to do that
(01:16):
just through focusing on clientexperience, making sure that his
boudoir clients not only have,or that they leave rather with
great photos, but they alsoleave feeling better about
themselves.
So today you will learn howemotional connection means
better conversions.
Michael will share how emotionalbonds are what make potential
clients commit to your servicesrather than pricing.
(01:39):
Also, how to market boudoirphotography.
Michael's going to share hisstrategy that he uses to market
boudoir photography, whereprivacy is, incredibly
important, and many clientsdon't want you to share your
photos with the world.
And how to effectivelycommunicate with your clients.
If you want to learn their truedesires, it's super important in
any form of photography, but itis even more so in boudoir and
(02:02):
Michael's going to teach you howto do that.
So there's a lot to learn anddiscuss about today's episode.
So remember, don't forget tojoin the free and amazing
beginner photography podcastcommunity, which you can find
and join over at beginnerphotopod.
com forward slash group andshare.
your takeaways or ask yourquestions.
So with that, let's go ahead andget on into today's interview
(02:22):
with Michael Sasser.
I know it's been more than twoyears since you were on the
podcast.
So for new listeners, can youjust give us a brief history of
how you got started inphotography and how you got to
where you are today?
Michael Sasser (02:36):
I love it.
It's been a journey.
I've been, kind of interested inphotography, shooting for about
15 years.
I got started in Australia.
I'd had my study abroad, so I'm35.
I did my study abroad out inAustralia.
And I took a camera, beforeiPhones.
And I just, I got really curiousabout shooting sunset.
I think I remember the firstpicture is I took a picture of a
(02:57):
sunset.
And it was the most beautifulsunset I had ever seen.
And I looked down at the camera.
I was like, that's not what thatsunset looks like at all.
And so I was like, how do I makeit more like that?
More like reality?
how do I create in the camerawhat I saw in real life?
And that kind of started me onthis journey to learning how to
use the camera.
And it started out with sunsets,landscapes and flowers and.
(03:18):
My first job was shootingchildren's sports photography.
So I found a company onCraigslist and my job was to
shoot, a little Johnny swingingthe baseball bat and try and get
the ball out in front of thebat.
so even if he missed it, itwould still look like he
might've hit it and, sell thatpicture back to their parents
for, however much 10, 10, 12 foran eight by 10.
(03:39):
And.
I was like 21 or 22 at the timeand I realized that I probably
wasn't going to be making enoughmoney doing that.
It was long hours.
We had to travel.
And so I needed to learn how torun my own business.
I needed to learn how to shootportraits, how to shoot
weddings, if I was really goingto make enough money to make
photography a sustainablecareer.
So from there, I went to highschool senior portraits, for
(03:59):
actors, ended up starting toshoot weddings, I learned
videography, so I shot weddingvideos in Denver, Colorado for a
number of years.
And then I found boudoirphotography through a workshop
and I really enjoyed it.
Once I moved to California.
So I've been in California forabout six years.
Now I stopped shooting weddingvideography.
(04:22):
I stopped shooting weddingphotography, and now I've solely
done boudoir photography forabout the last six years.
Raymond Hatfield (04:27):
remember last time you were talking about.
I think topic of ourconversation last time was being
a male boudoir photographerbecause the skew is so much more
towards women than it is men.
So you obviously have a bit of aunique perspective.
And you talked about theimportance of your why you
wanted to be a boudoirphotographer and why it was
important to you.
(04:48):
Now, I think since then, out ofall the podcast interviews that
I've had, like that piece rightthere has probably gotten the
most amount of attention.
Because I get a lot ofphotographers who are now
they're asking me, like, how doI find my why?
And I feel like the answer isexactly the same for
photographers who asked, like,how do I find my style?
(05:08):
And the only answer is, well,you just have to go out there
and shoot and you have to findit yourself.
Now, I'd love to hear, yourthoughts on this, but is that
how your why developed or isthere an element of planning
that went on there to find yourwhy?
Michael Sasser (05:22):
that's a good question.
So my particular experience wasBoudoir was kind of an extra
paycheck for me.
I wasn't shooting weddings inthe winter time.
And I had a space enough, it wasjust a futon, but I had good
enough light in my space that Iwas just like, what if I could
start shooting boudoir?
I took this workshop.
It makes sense.
I already know how to use mycamera.
I'll just do it with, in thisother genre.
And it was great, butemotionally it meant really not
(05:45):
that much to me.
It was a new curiosity.
It was like, can I figure thisout?
So for me, it was a little bitof a transition over time.
I had a number of clients thatcame in that shared their
insecurities, these women that,objectively I thought were
beautiful and they shared theseinsecurities that they had.
And I thought they were kind ofsilly for thinking so.
And I showed them the pictureson the camera and sometimes they
tear up and I was just like,what the heck is going on?
(06:07):
And I had learned through them.
How many women, hold thisemotional weight of them like
not living up to whatever thebeauty standards are being
really hard on themselves beingpicked on or being called names
when they were younger, neverreally getting over that.
And so they've been tellingthemselves this story over and
over again for years thatthey're not pretty or they're
(06:29):
unattractive or they're notworthy of love, all those
things.
And sometimes seeing a beautifulpicture of themselves is the
first time that they've reallybeen able to see it themselves.
So that was sort of eyeopeningto me.
And once, I realized that I gota little bit of, fulfillment
from being able to do this gooddeed from being able to be safe
space or a, like kind of pushthe needle forward for these
(06:53):
women be able to have somethingthat I don't think I ever really
needed to, worry about, imagewise.
I mean, I've had plenty of am Igoing to be able to date the
person that's going to like meback?
But as far as having the weightof that throughout my life, I
haven't had to experience.
So it was very cool to have thatopened up to me, which is
possible in a genre where it's,mostly women and on, the topic
(07:15):
of, it's pretty vulnerable toget down to your lingerie and be
photographed in front of astranger.
that was my experience.
I would say that it's importantif you're looking for your own,
whether or not it's weddingphotography, I'll share a story.
I was on a clubhouse and theywere kind of sharing a little
bit about creativity.
One woman said that she shotwedding photography because
she's had trouble in hermarriage and her parents didn't
(07:36):
make it and she found that.
She felt that if she could takegood enough pictures that showed
this couple's love enough thatwhen they're on hard times, they
could look back at their weddingpictures and be reminded of why
they started this journey in thefirst place.
And that can give them some,fuel, some support in making it
through the hard times.
(07:57):
Wow.
Yeah.
wedding photography as a form oftherapy or, wanting to hold
other people's marriages, makeother people's marriages
stronger.
that's a why, For anybodylistening that doesn't really
know how to find their why, whatdo you feel if you look back at
your life and maybe what wasmissing or what you wished you
could give or what you wantpeople to be able to receive
(08:21):
from your photography.
I think those are good questionsto ask in order to start to
understand what fuels yououtside of the wow cameras are
interesting, or it's so neatwhen I get a new lens, or if I
do it this way I earn moremoney.
But really, what's theadditional factor?
What's the X factor that getsyou excited to pick up that
(08:41):
camera?
Raymond Hatfield (08:42):
Right.
So for you, it evolved overtime.
You didn't start out from thebeginning thinking this is going
to be my why and work that way.
Things changed as you progressedas a boudoir photographer.
Michael Sasser (08:53):
Yeah.
I had no idea that, thatexisted, I mean, it's a very
talked about topic right now,but seven or eight years ago, it
wasn't as much, and hearingenough stories from enough
clients and being in theFacebook groups and hearing
other stories and having peoplefeel open enough to share with
me now that I am in the genre,it's just more common than I
thought.
Yeah.
(09:13):
so I've just been grateful tolike have a lens into that for
lack of a better word and thatit took many experiences like
that before it clicked for me.
Raymond Hatfield (09:24):
Yeah.
So then when you get that, doesyour why now affect the way that
you shoot, does it actuallychange the photography or does
it change the service that youprovide to your clients?
Michael Sasser (09:35):
Yeah.
So one of the things that'simportant to me is I've been
told that my work is reallyhonest, that my work is,
natural.
there's a bunch of different,photographies in each wedding
photographies in these highschool senior portraits in each.
And then within that, you canniche down as well.
So for me, I don't edit mypictures that much.
(09:55):
my rules are if it's temporary,take it out.
If it's permanent, leave it in.
So when somebody comes to me andthey say, Oh, well, I've got
this scar on my leg fromsomething.
Can we just remove it?
I try really hard to get them tokeep it in the pictures.
Because I think people, skin isskin and that's what skin looks
like and to spend all this timein the software to change what
(10:18):
somebody looks like, and theysee the picture of themselves, I
believe that in their minds,they're going to say, wow, I
look beautiful after Photoshopand fancy lighting and, in real
life.
I know I'm not this, but for onemoment I can pretend.
Raymond Hatfield (10:32):
Yeah.
Michael Sasser (10:32):
That's not my goal with boudoir, is to give
them a relief from reality.
What I want them to do isrestructure their reality that,
Oh my God, I've got this scarand it doesn't look bad.
Wait, I've been self consciousabout my stomach, but it doesn't
look the way that I've beenimagining it does.
Or I've always been selfconscious about my short legs,
(10:53):
but look at how good they lookin these pictures.
I would rather that thansomebody say, Oh, thank God
you're good at Photoshop.
Because I wouldn't have beenable to be beautiful otherwise.
So within that, that's a lot ofwhat we talk about during the
photo shoots.
When I hear somebody say, goodluck.
I'm never the pretty girl.
always just kind of the goofyperson.
(11:14):
We'll stop and we'll discussthat.
We'll discuss that.
Will you receive, from yoursignificant others?
They tell you're beautiful.
Well, yeah.
Well, they have to, causethey're my significant other.
I'm like, so you're thinkingthey're lying.
Well, they're not lying.
having a discussion where youare this and you are that you
are beautiful and you are goofyand you are smart.
And you are a mom and you are ateacher and you are devious and
(11:37):
you are all of these things, butyou have cut your identity down
to just the one thing that youfeel most comfortable in.
yeah, just showing them thatthey are all of the things that
they don't think they are, Ithink is more powerful than just
your pretty picture or beingable to do the one time, the one
time only.
Moment of beauty.
So those are the kind of some ofthe things that I talk about and
(12:00):
I consider myself to be prettypassionate about it.
Yeah.
So as far as having thatexperience, knowing that is what
brings me, one of the things inboudoir photography that gets me
excited about shooting is kindof making a difference, for
these people.
I lean into that a little bitmore during the shoot.
instead of just kind of ignoringthe topic.
Raymond Hatfield (12:22):
So the first half of that answer was
definitely focused on, physicalattributes of, your subject in
front of your camera.
But then the second half of thatanswer was very much the head
space.
Yeah, exactly.
The identity stuff.
are you going in trying tochange their vision of
themselves so that the photosthat you take of their internal
(12:44):
imperfections of their physicalbody changes?
Is that too much of a question?
Does that make sense?
Michael Sasser (12:49):
I'm kind of trying to meet them with where
they're at.
So some people come in and Imean, it's rare that somebody
comes in, they're like, let's dothis thing.
I've got no, no nothing.
I feel amazing.
So let's just shoot around.
Right.
but if somebody comes in andsays, I had a client.
so funny.
She's a client in her 60s.
She's I don't really wantanything shows my butt.
(13:09):
I don't think I really have one.
I think it's, less appropriatething to photograph.
let's shy away from that.
And some of the pictures she waskind of turned to the side and
it did, it showed her butt.
And that's something that I mayphotograph in a way that I think
will be within their comfortlevel, but still something that
they can see that may challengetheir view of themselves.
And.
she bought both those pictures.
(13:30):
She's it's so funny.
I came in here and I thought Ididn't want that.
And now that I see it, wow.
I've never imagined I would likea picture of myself that has my
butt in it.
Raymond Hatfield (13:38):
So
Michael Sasser (13:39):
those are the sort of things that I may
challenge, but it's not myagenda.
It's, I consider it to be theagenda.
They're not sure that they want.
when they show up, I want togive them an opportunity to feel
safe, to, be vulnerable, to takepictures that they may not have
thought that they were capableof to show themselves in a way
that they may not have imaginedthemselves.
(13:59):
but I want to do that one stepahead of wherever they're at.
Raymond Hatfield (14:02):
So ahead of wherever they're at.
Michael Sasser (14:04):
Yeah.
So if they come in, they say, Idon't think I want any pictures.
my butt.
That's pretty rare.
That's pretty rare.
So for her, I'm going to try andbe just one step ahead of that.
well, let me take something.
And if you like it, that'sgreat.
And if you don't like it, that'sokay too.
Whereas the next person may say,I don't want any shots with
(14:25):
nudity in it.
Okay, well, now we've beenshooting for an hour, do you
think you'd be comfortableenough to do that?
and then if they say yes, thenwe can try that.
And then again, they'll be like,wow, I never thought I could do
something like that.
So more so I'm trying to like,hold their hand.
As they go through thisexperience themselves, and what
I found if it's photography, foranybody listening, and they're
(14:46):
like, can I do boudoir?
Can I not do boudoir?
Can I try this?
Can I not try this?
Is it okay to do this?
Like most people just needpermission.
Like they can do it themselves.
I don't consider myself to besome magician or some I have all
of your answers sort of thing.
Right.
Or so what I want to do iscreate a safe space that lets
you know that you can step intoit.
Same with when I teachphotography, I don't know if
(15:06):
these pictures are good enoughto charge.
Are you kidding me?
These pictures are amazing.
You should charge.
And then they say I shouldcharge and then they charge and
then they're making money.
So I didn't do anything in thatsituation.
I just gave them the confidence.
I like opened the door for themto walk through.
Raymond Hatfield (15:20):
Yeah, of course.
What's funny to think aboutthere is, I think this idea and
tell me if I'm wrong, but whensomebody tells you, Hey, you
know what?
Not really comfortable my butt.
Don't really like it.
Don't really want any photos ofit.
Do you make it like a personalmission to then take a great
photo of that person's butt?
Michael Sasser (15:38):
Yeah.
I think a lot of boudoirphotographers feel that way,
cause the more powerful thing,you've got two options is to
say, wow, this client doesn'tlike their.
X their feature, whatever it is.
So I'm going to try and hidethat in all the photos and
reaffirm their belief that it'snot something that should be
seen.
Raymond Hatfield (15:55):
Yeah.
Michael Sasser (15:55):
Right.
So that's option one.
Option two is to challenge thatbelief that says you really have
nothing to be ashamed of.
You really don't have anythingto hide.
in fact, it could be somethingthat you should be proud of.
And so In what way do you dothat is by taking a picture that
shows it, that challenges theirperspective of what that is.
So yes, if a client says, sorry,I don't have a butt, like you're
(16:17):
just going to have to work withwhat you have.
I say, Oh, okay.
set them up in the poses that Iknow work.
And at the end, they're like,these are the best pictures
ever.
Or somebody who says, I don'treally, have a good serious
face, so I'm just going to begiggling and laughing the whole
time I want to get like fierce.
Fierce shots of them lookinginto the camera challenges this
(16:38):
idea of themselves that theycan't be sexy or that they don't
look that way.
Because even though that's aphysical thing, it changes their
mental perspective, right?
Even though it's a photo ofthemselves where they say, okay,
physically, I see that I looksexy, but now how do I feel as a
result of that?
I may feel powerful.
I may feel, stronger.
I may feel more dominant.
(16:58):
I may feel, more in control.
I may feel all of these things.
This is the feeling that comesout of what the picture may look
like.
Raymond Hatfield (17:04):
Throughout the shoot, you're showing pictures
of just the back of your camerato, reaffirm that they are
looking good and that this isturning out well.
Michael Sasser (17:12):
Yeah.
It depends on the client, but inthe first two minutes, I try and
show at least one becausepeople's imaginations are just
like, they feel kind of stiffand they're like, these probably
don't look good.
And so to get a quick shot thatshows them looking really nice,
then to show them, justeverything gets shattered.
Like their beliefs on, Oh wait,that looks good.
how did you do that?
what's the secret sauce?
I'm like, there's no secretsauce.
(17:33):
I told you to stand over here bythe window.
I took the picture.
Here it is.
We're just getting started.
Raymond Hatfield (17:37):
Yeah.
Michael Sasser (17:37):
And that breaks a lot of the, it's almost like
at the very beginning, it's thisguy's got no shot, good luck.
And then I do it and they'relike, Oh, okay.
now I want to be a part of it.
so that builds a little bit of abond.
Bricks down a few barriers,makes them more comfortable,
release a lot of attention, alot of the nerves.
(17:58):
I mean, my goal isn't to showthem everything at the reveal,
the end of the photo shoot Iwant to show them, but yeah, I'd
say throughout the shoot, Iprobably show them between five
and a dozen pictures.
Raymond Hatfield (18:08):
Gotcha.
Okay.
So at this point, Boudoirphotography, and again, correct
me if I'm wrong here, but unlikeweddings or family portraits
with Boudoir, I'd assume thatthe photos, they're going to be
mostly private, they're notgoing to be shared for the most
part, social media and justblast everywhere on the
internet.
Boudoir photography, is theservice more important than the
final deliverables?
Michael Sasser (18:30):
yes.
that's an interesting topicbecause it can be more difficult
to market for a lot of reasons.
exactly as you said, about halfof your clients, maybe more
probably won't let you sharetheir pictures.
I had a client recently who is atherapist.
We're not going to put herpictures online.
Sure.
Even if she wanted to, like it'sjust something that if somebody
found it could impact herpractice.
(18:51):
it sucks that may be the case,but that's the world that we
live in right now.
So one of my favorite shootsthis year, nobody's going to see
those pictures, but anybody shechooses to share with that's
some of the marketing, right?
Is she feels really good.
She's got similar friends whoare going through similar things
who also Want to photo shoot,then amazing Our reviews are
(19:12):
massive.
They are massive to get goodreviews for boudoir to have
somebody telling you that theyfelt safe, they felt
comfortable, that they werenervous that, how they felt
after the shoot, that they'restill looking through their
pictures, all that stuff isworth way more than a good
picture.
Raymond Hatfield (19:28):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Michael Sasser (19:29):
if you've got your options between getting
somebody to write a heartfeltreview and taking your favorite
picture ever, like I'll take theheartfelt review, 10 times out
of 10.
Raymond Hatfield (19:38):
Of course.
Michael Sasser (19:39):
I would say that's absolutely true.
Raymond Hatfield (19:41):
Okay, so then let's continue to shift more
into the business side here.
I had seen you had told me thatyou're working on a new system
in which has allowed you to workwith more of your ideal clients.
and you started implementing thesystem that has your calendar
more books than ever and hasgiven you more control over your
business as well.
(20:02):
So I would love to hear moreabout this.
Can you give me like the 30, 000foot overview of what the system
is of what you're doing?
Michael Sasser (20:09):
I'll give you the cliff notes.
and to do that, I'll say thatthe way that I used to book
clients is whenever I would getan email, I would try and email
them back right away and try andget them on the phone that day
or the next morning.
Hopefully they were free.
We didn't have to play too muchemail tag.
Once we got on the phone, Iwould give them the spiel and
ask them, when do you want tobook?
And they'd say, my, Weddingisn't for four months or five
(20:31):
months, I'm looking for,whenever in the next while I
don't really have anything setthat I need.
Okay, well, let's try and bookyou in on a date.
And, I was basically kind ofscrambling to fill people in.
I was getting enough inquiries.
I was booking the amount that Iwanted to, but I always felt
like I was chasing people.
And so after the pandemichappened and we had to stop
(20:52):
shooting, went back and mysystem and I said, is this
making me happy?
Do I feel fulfilled?
am I worried about thinkingabout booking the next client
all of the time?
how do I take more control ofthat?
I basically, the ability to bookmore, with this system that
gives me more control has justcome out of wanting more control
for myself.
So the first thing is now Idon't book within six months.
I book within three months,three months is a relatively
(21:15):
short amount of time.
So it's.
whatever.
It's July as we speak.
So I've got shoots booked inSeptember.
I'll probably open up Octoberdates this weekend, possibly.
So that's within three months oftoday's date.
So I don't have to worry aboutbooking a year out if I decide
to move, I decide I hateboudoir, whatever it is.
So that's the first way that Itook back control.
Hey, do you want to book withme?
(21:35):
It has to be within threemonths.
So that alone, put a littlepressure on clients that if I'm
the person that they want towork with it, It's gonna have to
happen.
You can't put it for six monthsor let me call you back in three
months or something like that.
I kind of have to make adecision.
the next thing I decided was,I've always only wanted to book
six shoots a month, but thistime I literally have capped it.
(21:56):
And now I let people know thatI've got a limited number of,
Shoots that I can book every sixmonths or every three months is
six shoots per month So withthat Now there's another level
of wow.
I really need to get into bookwith this person.
Otherwise, they're gonna fill uptheir dates And then the very
last thing that I did in orderto stop needing to message
(22:17):
everybody back right away was tobuild a wait list, which means
that when somebody comes to mywebsite and they want to book
with me, they put their emailaddress in and it starts to send
them queue of emails that helpsbuild rapport.
And the first email says, wow,thanks for taking the first
step.
You've now been added to thewait list.
You're going to need to wait andlook for when dates open up
(22:38):
again.
So this again, creates Oh myGod, I can't even book right
now.
Even if I wanted to, this personmust be really good.
They must have a lot of peoplewho want to work with them.
So now I need to be really on itif I really want to book with
this person.
So with that, I've been prettymuch, hitting my six shoots a
month, sometimes seven.
depending if I open up an extradate, if I can tell somebody
(23:00):
really wants to work with me andthey're going to be an amazing
client, they're really going toappreciate it.
I'll open up an extra date ortwo.
but it's been working prettywell since.
April, May, about the last fourmonths.
So I implemented it in Februaryis when I started doing it.
it took about two or threemonths to really get going, but
now I've refined some thingsand, yeah, everybody, I talked
to my makeup artists whilethey're getting their hair and
(23:22):
makeup done, I stay there forthe first 30 minutes and then I
come and I sit down in theoffice and I get some work done
and they've been telling methat, wow, everybody is so
excited to be here.
They really feel lucky to havegotten a chance to shoot with
you.
Wow.
I can't believe I was able toget a spot.
I'm really excited.
I've been wanting to do this andI really feel like this is going
to be the one.
I can't believe I'm here.
(23:43):
that kind of energy is reallyexciting because it means that
when I ask them to do somethingor I want to lead them through
something, maybe give themoutfit tips.
They're really going to behanging on every word because
they really trust that I'm theprofessional and that I'm going
to guide them in the right way.
Thank you.
Which can be a difference fromif you've got a client who sort
(24:03):
of like I didn't really look atthe websites and I just booked
the first person I found and Ishowed up with a baseball jersey
and a trucker hat and I sure,and a bow and arrow.
And I was like, these are thethings that I want to shoot
with, whatever they're into thatyou may not connect to.
But because There hasn't beenenough, connection or excitement
to shoot with you specifically.
(24:24):
You can kind of get an array ofpeople.
Raymond Hatfield (24:26):
First of all, I love that.
Thank you for sharing that.
I want to dive just a bit deeperinto that because I know that
when we first start off,Essentially, we are looking like
we just want every client thatcomes our way until you get to a
point to where you realize, Oh,wait, I'm actually working with
a lot of people who are not myideal clients.
And you had mentioned that thisis helping you get more ideal
(24:46):
clients so that now when they'rethere in your studio, they're
saying, Oh my gosh, I'm solucky.
I'm excited to be here thatyou've really built up that
connection.
So is the way that you'rebuilding that connection and
finding the ideal clients.
or filtering out who is yourideal client versus not your
ideal client through the seriesof emails that you're sending
them leading up to offeringdates available.
Michael Sasser (25:07):
it's a number of things.
the first thing, that I don'twant people to think is that,
you have to do one extreme orthe other.
So usually when, people who arejust starting, they're like,
well, I don't have a whole bunchof inquiries coming in.
I have to chase everything,which is true, which is.
What I did, which is whateverybody does when they first
start, but the way in which youapproach it doesn't have to be,
(25:27):
in a format which we're chasing.
So some of the language on yourwebsite can show, it starts on
your website in the emails thatyou send in the way that you
talk to them on the phone, thesesorts of things, what you're
trying to do is not necessarily,alienate anybody.
or, you're not trying to book solittle that you don't get work
(25:49):
or you're trying to do is showthem that you're somebody who's
worthwhile shooting for,shooting with more so than you
would do, you would feel luckyto have their business.
So it's basically, that swap.
So in the emails I've got, I'mdiscussing different topics.
So one of the topics I'mdiscussing is posing.
So the first thing everybodythinks is.
(26:10):
Especially for boudoir is I'mgoing to show up.
I'm going to look like an idiotbecause I don't know how to
pose.
And so as much as I can explainto them that they don't have to
do a single thing, all they haveto do is show up.
I'm going to take care of therest is going to relieve a lot
of the pressure on them to tryand perform during the photo
shoot, because what they thinkis it's up to them, whether or
(26:30):
not their pictures are going tobe good.
If I don't know how to pose, mypictures are going to be bad.
If I don't know how to look, mypictures are going to be bad.
And so one of the emails isdedicated to explaining that,
the way they're thinking aboutis incorrect.
The truth is that all you haveto do is show up.
I have an analogy in there, youwouldn't go to a restaurant, And
expect to cook your own food,the chef does that, whether or
(26:52):
not your food is good is not upto you.
it's up to the chef.
that's what one of the emailsdiscusses.
Another one discusses, themovie.
I feel pretty.
Okay, just such a great movie.
And it's basically a woman who,has never felt pretty in her
life.
I think it's Amy Schumer and shebumps her head and all of a
sudden she looks herself in themirror.
She's Whoa, I'm hot.
(27:12):
And nothing changed except justthe way she perceives herself.
And you get to see her movethrough the movie the whole day
as somebody who believes.
that they are beautiful insteadof somebody who believes they're
taking up space in this world.
And I think it's just such anincredible story and so funny.
And we talk about that mentalshift that happens after you get
your boudoir pictures taken,that the way you look doesn't
(27:33):
change, but the way you look atyourself changes.
And so these are the types ofthings I'm trying to cultivate.
I'm trying to let them know thatI know what they're going
through.
I'm familiar with what's goingon in their head.
I've photographed a lot ofdifferent people, and so they're
going to be in good hands.
And what's nice about boudoir isit's not.
a must have experience, seniorportraits, the deadline comes
(27:54):
up.
You got to get your seniorpictures done.
If you don't get your seniorpictures, you're not going to
have any pictures.
You got to have stuff in theyearbook.
Like it's got to happen.
Boudoir is not like that.
So a lot of people are like, Iknow I want to do it, but I'm
curious.
Let me shoot out a couple offeelers and see by doing that.
you'll lose clients.
Absolutely.
The way that I do it, I haveplenty of people that I'm sure.
Sign up for my wait list.
(28:15):
They call another photographerwho gets on the phone with them
that night.
They book with thatphotographer.
I'm okay with that because myown personal goals are six
shoots a month.
Within three months, as long asI booked those 18 clients, I'm
okay.
If a thousand other people hirea thousand other photographers.
so it's important to set yourgoals as to how many you want.
And within what time frame,because otherwise, if you're
(28:37):
booking six shoots a month at 6,000 or whatever your first year
of photography, you're making80, 000 a year, which is
amazing.
If you try and book a hundredpeople a month, you may only
book one because Nobody'schoosing you for you.
Raymond Hatfield (28:51):
Again, I feel like my mind is going in a
million directions right here.
that was a great explanation.
and I know that, setting upthese emails, we can all figure
out whether it's ConvertKit orMailChimp or whatever it is, it
can be done.
But, I guess how do you just saythat you get out of, I don't
know, 30 inquiries on yourwaitlist for the month, say that
you get 13, who you think aregoing to be real good fits.
(29:12):
I guess, how did you come upwith that decision?
And what do you do at thatpoint?
If you only have six dates,
Michael Sasser (29:17):
we get on the phone, and I think boudoir,
especially it's important to geton the phone.
There's some photographers Iknow who book over email.
And they do, they book a ton.
And think it's crazy.
I would never book somebodywithout first speaking to them
on the phone.
so we get on the phone.
once they sign up for the emaillist, I'm going to send out an
email that says, Hey, everybody,this Saturday is a chance to
book your photo shoot, sign upfor a time.
(29:38):
There are 12 slots and then theslots populate.
And I get on the phone with themand we talk, what, why are you
interested in a boudoir shoot?
Unless somebody like reallygives me the heebie jeebies, I'm
not going to say no.
I've had that happen two orthree times where I've said,
well, let me double check mycalendar and I'll get back to
you.
And then I've decided thatthey're not the right client for
me.
Raymond Hatfield (29:57):
Right.
Michael Sasser (29:57):
Pretty much everybody by that point.
I think when people are firststarting out, they have a hard
time showing their brand showinglike, this is what I'm about.
Here's the type of photos you'regoing to get.
This is what past clients havesaid.
Here's a video of me shooting,those sorts of things answer a
ton of the questions so thatwhen you get on the phone with
them, they're already like, Hey,I read that review where the
person said they were nervousand now, and then they had a
(30:19):
great time.
And Hey, I read your about methat said you went through
something when you were youngerAnd that's why you're shooting
boudoir now.
Hey, I Click through yourportfolio.
And I can imagine myself in yourpictures.
If they do all of those things,by the time they get on the
phone with you, it's going to bemuch easier to convert them.
Raymond Hatfield (30:37):
Yeah.
Michael Sasser (30:37):
But if you've got three or four photos and you
say, I like boudoir because Ilike making people feel pretty.
And your testimonial saysMichael was a great
photographer.
I'd highly recommend them.
It's going to be much moredifficult.
First of all, that person whocalls you could be anyone.
And secondly, it's going to bemuch more difficult to connect
with them because you're goingto have to do so much of the
(30:57):
work over the phone.
Raymond Hatfield (30:59):
Yeah.
Michael Sasser (30:59):
Versus already having some of that work done
for you.
So, when you're 10, 15 yearsinto business, you can get at
the point where you can bookpeople over email because you've
got enough reviews and you'vegot enough this and that and the
other.
When you're first starting out,to precede your phone calls,
work on your past clients to getas many reviews as you can.
Put those everywhere on yourwebsite.
(31:19):
If they do sign up for an emaillist, put those reviews in that
first email.
Here's a recent client, whatthey said.
They said they were reallynervous.
They've never done anything likethis before.
They thought they were going tolook silly and now they can't
stop staring at themselves.
That's going to connect withyour potential clients.
They're going to say, okay,that's exactly the experience
that I want.
I'm going to choose them overthe person who just said Michael
(31:40):
was a great photographer.
I highly recommend them.
Raymond Hatfield (31:43):
Right.
Michael Sasser (31:43):
The phone call is, a chance to listen to why
they want to shoot boudoir orany genre.
When somebody says, Hey, I'minterested in high school senior
pictures.
Why is that important to you?
when the mom says, Hey, I'mlooking for a high school senior
portrait photographer for mydaughter.
we're making a few phone callsand you say Around being able to
(32:05):
look back at these pictures atthis time in their life when
they're growing up.
And, do you remember like thefirst time they got pictures
when they were like three yearsold or babies or something and
you can connect on that topic?
Raymond Hatfield (32:15):
Yeah.
Michael Sasser (32:15):
Oh, this person understands why I'm doing it.
I want to hire this person.
Then once you get to price andstuff, it's much easier for them
to spend money.
Because now they want to hireyou for more than just how much
it costs.
Raymond Hatfield (32:29):
Of course, You know what I love?
I love how you broke down soeasy.
not only how that works, how youput it into practice, but also
that it can be applied.
Pretty much anything else withthat last example there.
Like I'm thinking of three orfour ways that I could use that
just in my own weddingphotography.
And I mean, again, it justincreases that demand for your
services.
And in a time where it comes tolike weddings, I know with me
(32:51):
personally, with weddings, itfeels very much like clients
don't really know what it isthat they're looking at, but
there are so many different, youknow, as you said, sub niches of
wedding photography, that itreally comes to education and
figuring out how you get theright.
information to your clients, andI think I'm going to sit on that
for a little bit and brainstormhow I can put that into practice
(33:11):
because I really think thatthat's going to make a huge
change.
And again, for really any styleof photography.
That's great.
Michael Sasser (33:17):
Especially for wedding photography, I would say
that that is something wherepeople typically call a lot of
different people.
And the conversations could berelatively similar.
Well, how did you guys meet?
Raymond Hatfield (33:28):
Yeah.
Michael Sasser (33:29):
if you can find a question that's less common to
connect with them on, to be theperson who's like a little bit
different, who asked like alittle bit more interesting
question.
I think that's a good way Tohelp you stand out as a way to,
yeah, everyone wants to know,how did he propose?
Well, let me tell you for thethousandth time, cause I've told
a thousand other people, youknow, it can be not that those
(33:52):
questions don't have relevance,but as far as the same way to
ask, why are you interested in aboudoir shoot and share a
similar story?
That you've gone through or forpeople that I've known in my
life or, to dig a little bit sothat they feel like, wow, I'm
opening up to this person alittle bit.
I must be comfortable with thisperson.
now I feel like I want to hirethis person specifically is a
much more powerful tool to bookyour clients than how much do
(34:17):
you cost?
yeah, because that's just anumber.
Raymond Hatfield (34:20):
Right, right.
And it doesn't tell anything.
It doesn't tell you anything.
Unfortunately, there are so manyphotographers, who I would say
are within my same price range,but are wildly different in
terms of styles.
And it's really unfortunatebecause now I feel like the
weight falls on me because Ihave to make sure that I'm not
going to take a client who wantsa certain style That I'm not an
expert at delivering, you knowwhat I mean?
(34:42):
So yeah, I could see how thiscould be an amazing thing here.
I really appreciate you sharingthe last thing
Michael Sasser (34:47):
I want to, yeah.
The last thing I want to sayabout that is.
There's a lot of discussion onlike, oh, you shouldn't charge a
hundred dollars.
You shouldn't charge$200.
The point isn't like, at whatpoint are you pricing yourself?
There's plenty of people whoonly have a hundred dollars to
spend, or there's plenty ofpeople who only have$200 to
spend.
And what an amazing thing forthem to be able to have quality
photography.
the point is, even if that'swhere you're starting, don't
(35:08):
make that the main reason whysomebody would choose you.
Raymond Hatfield (35:13):
Mm-Hmm.
Michael Sasser (35:14):
And especially if that's where you're at and
that's the clients that you'regetting, use all of that to
position yourself.
if it's important to you to earnmore, to start earning, one,
two, three, 4, 000 per client,then use that as part of your
journey.
To learn how to connect on amore emotional level, because
that's what makes people spendmoney.
(35:35):
Nobody spends 500 on shoesbecause they're more
comfortable.
Right.
Um, because how, how it makesyou feel when you're wearing
those shoes.
Right.
Raymond Hatfield (35:47):
Yeah, of course, this has been wonderful.
Michael, I hate to, cut it offhere, but I know that we're
coming to the end of our time.
And you have just shared so muchonce again, you are an open
book, and you're more than happyto talk about, exactly how your
business works, which I think isgreat, especially in a world of
don't want to say that boudoirphotography is very secretive,
but just in its very nature, itfeels more private than other
(36:10):
forms of photography.
So for you to be that person tosay, Hey, I'm here.
I'm open.
I'm willing to help.
I know like how this works andyou can do it too, is very
refreshing and I can tell itcomes through and all of your
answers.
So I appreciate you being soopen and honest with all of your
answers today.
Michael Sasser (36:26):
Absolutely.
I appreciate that.
First of all, I think boudoir isan amazing genre and it does a
lot of good for the world.
And the more people that aregood at it and charge what it's
worth, the more everyone willstart to understand its value.
You could think Oh, if morepeople know about it, then I
won't be able to charge as much.
But, something really funnyhappened when Starbucks came
(36:48):
out, they thought they weregoing to put all the other
coffee shops out of business,but what it did was create a
coffee culture that All thelittle coffee shops started to
get way more business too.
Raymond Hatfield (36:56):
Yeah.
Michael Sasser (36:57):
Starbucks brought coffee to the
mainstream, more so.
And now everybody knows thevalue of having a nice warm cup
of coffee in the morning.
I don't drink coffee, but formost people it does.
And same for boudoir.
The more people who are good atit and can connect on an
emotional level and take qualitypictures, the more everybody
wins.
Raymond Hatfield (37:17):
what do you do to get ready in the morning?
If you don't drink coffee,
Michael Sasser (37:19):
uh, I just get eight hours of sleep and
Raymond Hatfield (37:23):
you wake up ready to go.
You're just excited for the dayto
Michael Sasser (37:25):
sit down on my computer and start clicking
away.
Raymond Hatfield (37:28):
That's awesome.
Well, Michael, before I let yougo, why don't you let people
know where they can find outmore about you and what it is
that you do online?
Michael Sasser (37:34):
Absolutely.
So, I basically have a couple ofchannels that wish you can
connect with me if you guys arelooking for free, tutorials.
around boudoir, then I've got aYouTube channel that has a ton,
75, 80 videos on the topic.
I mean, you could just bingewatch, a ton and get started,
which is really exciting.
So that's the first thing.
the second thing is the nextfree avenue would be my
(37:56):
Instagram page, I'm posting, I'mdoing Instagram lives.
I'm doing some different stufflike that, which is really fun.
Also, I've got a Facebook groupfor photographers.
so you can check that out.
So my YouTube channel is just mylast name, Michael Sasser.
You can just Google that.
my Instagram page issasserstillsboudoirstills, like
still photograph.
And then my, Facebook group isfacebook.
(38:17):
com group slash sassereducation.
those are all three places thatyou can do.
if you guys want more in depth,step by step business related
tutorials, I've got.
Onlinecourses@boudoircourses.com and,
that's the setup.
I had a blast.
Thank you so much.
Raymond Hatfield (38:35):
Alright, huge thank you to Michael for coming
on the podcast and sharingeverything that he did.
How about we go ahead and recapwhat we have learned today.
The first thing is to buildemotional connections.
When you are communicating withpotential clients, build an
emotional connection by tellingstories rather than focusing on
features or number of productsor photos that they may get.
(38:56):
When you are able to understandyour client's motivation for
booking you, then you'll be ableto make them feel way more
comfortable and excited abouttheir shoot.
Next implement an effectivebooking system.
I love, love, love, love thisone.
When you respect your time, yourclients will too, meaning,
structure a work schedule thatworks for you.
For you, whatever your, idealis, whatever your dream is, and
(39:20):
that means setting very specificshoot times to a defined window.
Capping the number of shootsthat you will take, and if you
got to make a waitlist, make awaitlist because that will
create exclusivity.
So good.
And lastly, showcase truebeauty.
This right here is the mark of atrue photographer.
(39:40):
Learning what somebody does notlove about themselves, and then
being able to capture them, andtheir self imposed
imperfections, and, be able tostill create an image that they
love.
Not only love, but then bebuilds their self confidence,
that is truly amazing.
You know, it's not aboutPhotoshop.
It is about the in personexperience.
So that is the last takeawaythere.
(40:00):
I want to hear your biggesttakeaway from this episode here
with Michael Sasser.
Feel free to share it in thefree and amazing beginner
photography podcast community,which you can join right now
over at beginnerphotopod.
com forward slash group.
That is it for today.
Remember until next week, themore that you shoot today, the
better of a photographer thatyou will be tomorrow.
(40:21):
Talk soon.
you wouldn't go to a restaurant and expect to
(00:02):
cook your own food.
The chef does that The firstthing everybody thinks is
especially for boudoir is I'mgoing to show up.
I'm going to look like an idiotbecause I don't know how to
pose.
And so as much as I can explainto them that they don't have to
do a single thing, all they haveto do is show up.
I'm going to take care of therest is going to relieve a lot
of the pressure on them to tryand perform during the photo
(00:23):
shoot, because what they thinkis it's up to them, whether or
not their pictures are going tobe good.
whether or not your food is goodis not up to you.
It's up to the chef
Raymond Hatfield (00:31):
Hey, welcome to the Beginner Photography
Podcast.
I'm your host, Raymond Hatfield,and today we're chatting with
boudoir photographer, MichaelSasser, about creating an
emotional connection with yoursubjects to allow their true
selves to come out.
But first, the BeginnerPhotography Podcast is brought
to you by CloudSpot.
You can impress your clientswith a beautiful gallery that is
easy to view, it's easy toshare, and it's easy to download
(00:53):
on any device.
You can control your imagesizes, add watermarks, and of
course download limits as well.
So grab your free foreveraccount over at DeliverPhotos.
com and only upgrade when youare ready.
I think we can all, understandthat, being a photographer and
trying to stand out in asaturated market such as Los
Angeles is no easy task, butMichael has been able to do that
(01:16):
just through focusing on clientexperience, making sure that his
boudoir clients not only have,or that they leave rather with
great photos, but they alsoleave feeling better about
themselves.
So today you will learn howemotional connection means
better conversions.
Michael will share how emotionalbonds are what make potential
clients commit to your servicesrather than pricing.
(01:39):
Also, how to market boudoirphotography.
Michael's going to share hisstrategy that he uses to market
boudoir photography, whereprivacy is, incredibly
important, and many clientsdon't want you to share your
photos with the world.
And how to effectivelycommunicate with your clients.
If you want to learn their truedesires, it's super important in
any form of photography, but itis even more so in boudoir and
(02:02):
Michael's going to teach you howto do that.
So there's a lot to learn anddiscuss about today's episode.
So remember, don't forget tojoin the free and amazing
beginner photography podcastcommunity, which you can find
and join over at beginnerphotopod.
com forward slash group andshare.
your takeaways or ask yourquestions.
So with that, let's go ahead andget on into today's interview
(02:22):
with Michael Sasser.
I know it's been more than twoyears since you were on the
podcast.
So for new listeners, can youjust give us a brief history of
how you got started inphotography and how you got to
where you are today?
Michael Sasser (02:36):
I love it.
It's been a journey.
I've been, kind of interested inphotography, shooting for about
15 years.
I got started in Australia.
I'd had my study abroad, so I'm35.
I did my study abroad out inAustralia.
And I took a camera, beforeiPhones.
And I just, I got really curiousabout shooting sunset.
I think I remember the firstpicture is I took a picture of a
(02:57):
sunset.
And it was the most beautifulsunset I had ever seen.
And I looked down at the camera.
I was like, that's not what thatsunset looks like at all.
And so I was like, how do I makeit more like that?
More like reality?
how do I create in the camerawhat I saw in real life?
And that kind of started me onthis journey to learning how to
use the camera.
And it started out with sunsets,landscapes and flowers and.
(03:18):
My first job was shootingchildren's sports photography.
So I found a company onCraigslist and my job was to
shoot, a little Johnny swingingthe baseball bat and try and get
the ball out in front of thebat.
so even if he missed it, itwould still look like he
might've hit it and, sell thatpicture back to their parents
for, however much 10, 10, 12 foran eight by 10.
(03:39):
And.
I was like 21 or 22 at the timeand I realized that I probably
wasn't going to be making enoughmoney doing that.
It was long hours.
We had to travel.
And so I needed to learn how torun my own business.
I needed to learn how to shootportraits, how to shoot
weddings, if I was really goingto make enough money to make
photography a sustainablecareer.
So from there, I went to highschool senior portraits, for
(03:59):
actors, ended up starting toshoot weddings, I learned
videography, so I shot weddingvideos in Denver, Colorado for a
number of years.
And then I found boudoirphotography through a workshop
and I really enjoyed it.
Once I moved to California.
So I've been in California forabout six years.
Now I stopped shooting weddingvideography.
(04:22):
I stopped shooting weddingphotography, and now I've solely
done boudoir photography forabout the last six years.
Raymond Hatfield (04:27):
remember last time you were talking about.
I think topic of ourconversation last time was being
a male boudoir photographerbecause the skew is so much more
towards women than it is men.
So you obviously have a bit of aunique perspective.
And you talked about theimportance of your why you
wanted to be a boudoirphotographer and why it was
important to you.
(04:48):
Now, I think since then, out ofall the podcast interviews that
I've had, like that piece rightthere has probably gotten the
most amount of attention.
Because I get a lot ofphotographers who are now
they're asking me, like, how doI find my why?
And I feel like the answer isexactly the same for
photographers who asked, like,how do I find my style?
(05:08):
And the only answer is, well,you just have to go out there
and shoot and you have to findit yourself.
Now, I'd love to hear, yourthoughts on this, but is that
how your why developed or isthere an element of planning
that went on there to find yourwhy?
Michael Sasser (05:22):
that's a good question.
So my particular experience wasBoudoir was kind of an extra
paycheck for me.
I wasn't shooting weddings inthe winter time.
And I had a space enough, it wasjust a futon, but I had good
enough light in my space that Iwas just like, what if I could
start shooting boudoir?
I took this workshop.
It makes sense.
I already know how to use mycamera.
I'll just do it with, in thisother genre.
And it was great, butemotionally it meant really not
(05:45):
that much to me.
It was a new curiosity.
It was like, can I figure thisout?
So for me, it was a little bitof a transition over time.
I had a number of clients thatcame in that shared their
insecurities, these women that,objectively I thought were
beautiful and they shared theseinsecurities that they had.
And I thought they were kind ofsilly for thinking so.
And I showed them the pictureson the camera and sometimes they
tear up and I was just like,what the heck is going on?
(06:07):
And I had learned through them.
How many women, hold thisemotional weight of them like
not living up to whatever thebeauty standards are being
really hard on themselves beingpicked on or being called names
when they were younger, neverreally getting over that.
And so they've been tellingthemselves this story over and
over again for years thatthey're not pretty or they're
(06:29):
unattractive or they're notworthy of love, all those
things.
And sometimes seeing a beautifulpicture of themselves is the
first time that they've reallybeen able to see it themselves.
So that was sort of eyeopeningto me.
And once, I realized that I gota little bit of, fulfillment
from being able to do this gooddeed from being able to be safe
space or a, like kind of pushthe needle forward for these
(06:53):
women be able to have somethingthat I don't think I ever really
needed to, worry about, imagewise.
I mean, I've had plenty of am Igoing to be able to date the
person that's going to like meback?
But as far as having the weightof that throughout my life, I
haven't had to experience.
So it was very cool to have thatopened up to me, which is
possible in a genre where it's,mostly women and on, the topic
(07:15):
of, it's pretty vulnerable toget down to your lingerie and be
photographed in front of astranger.
that was my experience.
I would say that it's importantif you're looking for your own,
whether or not it's weddingphotography, I'll share a story.
I was on a clubhouse and theywere kind of sharing a little
bit about creativity.
One woman said that she shotwedding photography because
she's had trouble in hermarriage and her parents didn't
(07:36):
make it and she found that.
She felt that if she could takegood enough pictures that showed
this couple's love enough thatwhen they're on hard times, they
could look back at their weddingpictures and be reminded of why
they started this journey in thefirst place.
And that can give them some,fuel, some support in making it
through the hard times.
(07:57):
Wow.
Yeah.
wedding photography as a form oftherapy or, wanting to hold
other people's marriages, makeother people's marriages
stronger.
that's a why, For anybodylistening that doesn't really
know how to find their why, whatdo you feel if you look back at
your life and maybe what wasmissing or what you wished you
could give or what you wantpeople to be able to receive
(08:21):
from your photography.
I think those are good questionsto ask in order to start to
understand what fuels yououtside of the wow cameras are
interesting, or it's so neatwhen I get a new lens, or if I
do it this way I earn moremoney.
But really, what's theadditional factor?
What's the X factor that getsyou excited to pick up that
(08:41):
camera?
Raymond Hatfield (08:42):
Right.
So for you, it evolved overtime.
You didn't start out from thebeginning thinking this is going
to be my why and work that way.
Things changed as you progressedas a boudoir photographer.
Michael Sasser (08:53):
Yeah.
I had no idea that, thatexisted, I mean, it's a very
talked about topic right now,but seven or eight years ago, it
wasn't as much, and hearingenough stories from enough
clients and being in theFacebook groups and hearing
other stories and having peoplefeel open enough to share with
me now that I am in the genre,it's just more common than I
thought.
Yeah.
(09:13):
so I've just been grateful tolike have a lens into that for
lack of a better word and thatit took many experiences like
that before it clicked for me.
Raymond Hatfield (09:24):
Yeah.
So then when you get that, doesyour why now affect the way that
you shoot, does it actuallychange the photography or does
it change the service that youprovide to your clients?
Michael Sasser (09:35):
Yeah.
So one of the things that'simportant to me is I've been
told that my work is reallyhonest, that my work is,
natural.
there's a bunch of different,photographies in each wedding
photographies in these highschool senior portraits in each.
And then within that, you canniche down as well.
So for me, I don't edit mypictures that much.
(09:55):
my rules are if it's temporary,take it out.
If it's permanent, leave it in.
So when somebody comes to me andthey say, Oh, well, I've got
this scar on my leg fromsomething.
Can we just remove it?
I try really hard to get them tokeep it in the pictures.
Because I think people, skin isskin and that's what skin looks
like and to spend all this timein the software to change what
(10:18):
somebody looks like, and theysee the picture of themselves, I
believe that in their minds,they're going to say, wow, I
look beautiful after Photoshopand fancy lighting and, in real
life.
I know I'm not this, but for onemoment I can pretend.
Raymond Hatfield (10:32):
Yeah.
Michael Sasser (10:32):
That's not my goal with boudoir, is to give
them a relief from reality.
What I want them to do isrestructure their reality that,
Oh my God, I've got this scarand it doesn't look bad.
Wait, I've been self consciousabout my stomach, but it doesn't
look the way that I've beenimagining it does.
Or I've always been selfconscious about my short legs,
(10:53):
but look at how good they lookin these pictures.
I would rather that thansomebody say, Oh, thank God
you're good at Photoshop.
Because I wouldn't have beenable to be beautiful otherwise.
So within that, that's a lot ofwhat we talk about during the
photo shoots.
When I hear somebody say, goodluck.
I'm never the pretty girl.
always just kind of the goofyperson.
(11:14):
We'll stop and we'll discussthat.
We'll discuss that.
Will you receive, from yoursignificant others?
They tell you're beautiful.
Well, yeah.
Well, they have to, causethey're my significant other.
I'm like, so you're thinkingthey're lying.
Well, they're not lying.
having a discussion where youare this and you are that you
are beautiful and you are goofyand you are smart.
And you are a mom and you are ateacher and you are devious and
(11:37):
you are all of these things, butyou have cut your identity down
to just the one thing that youfeel most comfortable in.
yeah, just showing them thatthey are all of the things that
they don't think they are, Ithink is more powerful than just
your pretty picture or beingable to do the one time, the one
time only.
Moment of beauty.
So those are the kind of some ofthe things that I talk about and
(12:00):
I consider myself to be prettypassionate about it.
Yeah.
So as far as having thatexperience, knowing that is what
brings me, one of the things inboudoir photography that gets me
excited about shooting is kindof making a difference, for
these people.
I lean into that a little bitmore during the shoot.
instead of just kind of ignoringthe topic.
Raymond Hatfield (12:22):
So the first half of that answer was
definitely focused on, physicalattributes of, your subject in
front of your camera.
But then the second half of thatanswer was very much the head
space.
Yeah, exactly.
The identity stuff.
are you going in trying tochange their vision of
themselves so that the photosthat you take of their internal
(12:44):
imperfections of their physicalbody changes?
Is that too much of a question?
Does that make sense?
Michael Sasser (12:49):
I'm kind of trying to meet them with where
they're at.
So some people come in and Imean, it's rare that somebody
comes in, they're like, let's dothis thing.
I've got no, no nothing.
I feel amazing.
So let's just shoot around.
Right.
but if somebody comes in andsays, I had a client.
so funny.
She's a client in her 60s.
She's I don't really wantanything shows my butt.
(13:09):
I don't think I really have one.
I think it's, less appropriatething to photograph.
let's shy away from that.
And some of the pictures she waskind of turned to the side and
it did, it showed her butt.
And that's something that I mayphotograph in a way that I think
will be within their comfortlevel, but still something that
they can see that may challengetheir view of themselves.
And.
she bought both those pictures.
(13:30):
She's it's so funny.
I came in here and I thought Ididn't want that.
And now that I see it, wow.
I've never imagined I would likea picture of myself that has my
butt in it.
Raymond Hatfield (13:38):
So
Michael Sasser (13:39):
those are the sort of things that I may
challenge, but it's not myagenda.
It's, I consider it to be theagenda.
They're not sure that they want.
when they show up, I want togive them an opportunity to feel
safe, to, be vulnerable, to takepictures that they may not have
thought that they were capableof to show themselves in a way
that they may not have imaginedthemselves.
(13:59):
but I want to do that one stepahead of wherever they're at.
Raymond Hatfield (14:02):
So ahead of wherever they're at.
Michael Sasser (14:04):
Yeah.
So if they come in, they say, Idon't think I want any pictures.
my butt.
That's pretty rare.
That's pretty rare.
So for her, I'm going to try andbe just one step ahead of that.
well, let me take something.
And if you like it, that'sgreat.
And if you don't like it, that'sokay too.
Whereas the next person may say,I don't want any shots with
(14:25):
nudity in it.
Okay, well, now we've beenshooting for an hour, do you
think you'd be comfortableenough to do that?
and then if they say yes, thenwe can try that.
And then again, they'll be like,wow, I never thought I could do
something like that.
So more so I'm trying to like,hold their hand.
As they go through thisexperience themselves, and what
I found if it's photography, foranybody listening, and they're
(14:46):
like, can I do boudoir?
Can I not do boudoir?
Can I try this?
Can I not try this?
Is it okay to do this?
Like most people just needpermission.
Like they can do it themselves.
I don't consider myself to besome magician or some I have all
of your answers sort of thing.
Right.
Or so what I want to do iscreate a safe space that lets
you know that you can step intoit.
Same with when I teachphotography, I don't know if
(15:06):
these pictures are good enoughto charge.
Are you kidding me?
These pictures are amazing.
You should charge.
And then they say I shouldcharge and then they charge and
then they're making money.
So I didn't do anything in thatsituation.
I just gave them the confidence.
I like opened the door for themto walk through.
Raymond Hatfield (15:20):
Yeah, of course.
What's funny to think aboutthere is, I think this idea and
tell me if I'm wrong, but whensomebody tells you, Hey, you
know what?
Not really comfortable my butt.
Don't really like it.
Don't really want any photos ofit.
Do you make it like a personalmission to then take a great
photo of that person's butt?
Michael Sasser (15:38):
Yeah.
I think a lot of boudoirphotographers feel that way,
cause the more powerful thing,you've got two options is to
say, wow, this client doesn'tlike their.
X their feature, whatever it is.
So I'm going to try and hidethat in all the photos and
reaffirm their belief that it'snot something that should be
seen.
Raymond Hatfield (15:55):
Yeah.
Michael Sasser (15:55):
Right.
So that's option one.
Option two is to challenge thatbelief that says you really have
nothing to be ashamed of.
You really don't have anythingto hide.
in fact, it could be somethingthat you should be proud of.
And so In what way do you dothat is by taking a picture that
shows it, that challenges theirperspective of what that is.
So yes, if a client says, sorry,I don't have a butt, like you're
(16:17):
just going to have to work withwhat you have.
I say, Oh, okay.
set them up in the poses that Iknow work.
And at the end, they're like,these are the best pictures
ever.
Or somebody who says, I don'treally, have a good serious
face, so I'm just going to begiggling and laughing the whole
time I want to get like fierce.
Fierce shots of them lookinginto the camera challenges this
(16:38):
idea of themselves that theycan't be sexy or that they don't
look that way.
Because even though that's aphysical thing, it changes their
mental perspective, right?
Even though it's a photo ofthemselves where they say, okay,
physically, I see that I looksexy, but now how do I feel as a
result of that?
I may feel powerful.
I may feel, stronger.
I may feel more dominant.
(16:58):
I may feel, more in control.
I may feel all of these things.
This is the feeling that comesout of what the picture may look
like.
Raymond Hatfield (17:04):
Throughout the shoot, you're showing pictures
of just the back of your camerato, reaffirm that they are
looking good and that this isturning out well.
Michael Sasser (17:12):
Yeah.
It depends on the client, but inthe first two minutes, I try and
show at least one becausepeople's imaginations are just
like, they feel kind of stiffand they're like, these probably
don't look good.
And so to get a quick shot thatshows them looking really nice,
then to show them, justeverything gets shattered.
Like their beliefs on, Oh wait,that looks good.
how did you do that?
what's the secret sauce?
I'm like, there's no secretsauce.
(17:33):
I told you to stand over here bythe window.
I took the picture.
Here it is.
We're just getting started.
Raymond Hatfield (17:37):
Yeah.
Michael Sasser (17:37):
And that breaks a lot of the, it's almost like
at the very beginning, it's thisguy's got no shot, good luck.
And then I do it and they'relike, Oh, okay.
now I want to be a part of it.
so that builds a little bit of abond.
Bricks down a few barriers,makes them more comfortable,
release a lot of attention, alot of the nerves.
(17:58):
I mean, my goal isn't to showthem everything at the reveal,
the end of the photo shoot Iwant to show them, but yeah, I'd
say throughout the shoot, Iprobably show them between five
and a dozen pictures.
Raymond Hatfield (18:08):
Gotcha.
Okay.
So at this point, Boudoirphotography, and again, correct
me if I'm wrong here, but unlikeweddings or family portraits
with Boudoir, I'd assume thatthe photos, they're going to be
mostly private, they're notgoing to be shared for the most
part, social media and justblast everywhere on the
internet.
Boudoir photography, is theservice more important than the
final deliverables?
Michael Sasser (18:30):
yes.
that's an interesting topicbecause it can be more difficult
to market for a lot of reasons.
exactly as you said, about halfof your clients, maybe more
probably won't let you sharetheir pictures.
I had a client recently who is atherapist.
We're not going to put herpictures online.
Sure.
Even if she wanted to, like it'sjust something that if somebody
found it could impact herpractice.
(18:51):
it sucks that may be the case,but that's the world that we
live in right now.
So one of my favorite shootsthis year, nobody's going to see
those pictures, but anybody shechooses to share with that's
some of the marketing, right?
Is she feels really good.
She's got similar friends whoare going through similar things
who also Want to photo shoot,then amazing Our reviews are
(19:12):
massive.
They are massive to get goodreviews for boudoir to have
somebody telling you that theyfelt safe, they felt
comfortable, that they werenervous that, how they felt
after the shoot, that they'restill looking through their
pictures, all that stuff isworth way more than a good
picture.
Raymond Hatfield (19:28):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Michael Sasser (19:29):
if you've got your options between getting
somebody to write a heartfeltreview and taking your favorite
picture ever, like I'll take theheartfelt review, 10 times out
of 10.
Raymond Hatfield (19:38):
Of course.
Michael Sasser (19:39):
I would say that's absolutely true.
Raymond Hatfield (19:41):
Okay, so then let's continue to shift more
into the business side here.
I had seen you had told me thatyou're working on a new system
in which has allowed you to workwith more of your ideal clients.
and you started implementing thesystem that has your calendar
more books than ever and hasgiven you more control over your
business as well.
(20:02):
So I would love to hear moreabout this.
Can you give me like the 30, 000foot overview of what the system
is of what you're doing?
Michael Sasser (20:09):
I'll give you the cliff notes.
and to do that, I'll say thatthe way that I used to book
clients is whenever I would getan email, I would try and email
them back right away and try andget them on the phone that day
or the next morning.
Hopefully they were free.
We didn't have to play too muchemail tag.
Once we got on the phone, Iwould give them the spiel and
ask them, when do you want tobook?
And they'd say, my, Weddingisn't for four months or five
(20:31):
months, I'm looking for,whenever in the next while I
don't really have anything setthat I need.
Okay, well, let's try and bookyou in on a date.
And, I was basically kind ofscrambling to fill people in.
I was getting enough inquiries.
I was booking the amount that Iwanted to, but I always felt
like I was chasing people.
And so after the pandemichappened and we had to stop
(20:52):
shooting, went back and mysystem and I said, is this
making me happy?
Do I feel fulfilled?
am I worried about thinkingabout booking the next client
all of the time?
how do I take more control ofthat?
I basically, the ability to bookmore, with this system that
gives me more control has justcome out of wanting more control
for myself.
So the first thing is now Idon't book within six months.
I book within three months,three months is a relatively
(21:15):
short amount of time.
So it's.
whatever.
It's July as we speak.
So I've got shoots booked inSeptember.
I'll probably open up Octoberdates this weekend, possibly.
So that's within three months oftoday's date.
So I don't have to worry aboutbooking a year out if I decide
to move, I decide I hateboudoir, whatever it is.
So that's the first way that Itook back control.
Hey, do you want to book withme?
(21:35):
It has to be within threemonths.
So that alone, put a littlepressure on clients that if I'm
the person that they want towork with it, It's gonna have to
happen.
You can't put it for six monthsor let me call you back in three
months or something like that.
I kind of have to make adecision.
the next thing I decided was,I've always only wanted to book
six shoots a month, but thistime I literally have capped it.
(21:56):
And now I let people know thatI've got a limited number of,
Shoots that I can book every sixmonths or every three months is
six shoots per month So withthat Now there's another level
of wow.
I really need to get into bookwith this person.
Otherwise, they're gonna fill uptheir dates And then the very
last thing that I did in orderto stop needing to message
(22:17):
everybody back right away was tobuild a wait list, which means
that when somebody comes to mywebsite and they want to book
with me, they put their emailaddress in and it starts to send
them queue of emails that helpsbuild rapport.
And the first email says, wow,thanks for taking the first
step.
You've now been added to thewait list.
You're going to need to wait andlook for when dates open up
(22:38):
again.
So this again, creates Oh myGod, I can't even book right
now.
Even if I wanted to, this personmust be really good.
They must have a lot of peoplewho want to work with them.
So now I need to be really on itif I really want to book with
this person.
So with that, I've been prettymuch, hitting my six shoots a
month, sometimes seven.
depending if I open up an extradate, if I can tell somebody
(23:00):
really wants to work with me andthey're going to be an amazing
client, they're really going toappreciate it.
I'll open up an extra date ortwo.
but it's been working prettywell since.
April, May, about the last fourmonths.
So I implemented it in Februaryis when I started doing it.
it took about two or threemonths to really get going, but
now I've refined some thingsand, yeah, everybody, I talked
to my makeup artists whilethey're getting their hair and
(23:22):
makeup done, I stay there forthe first 30 minutes and then I
come and I sit down in theoffice and I get some work done
and they've been telling methat, wow, everybody is so
excited to be here.
They really feel lucky to havegotten a chance to shoot with
you.
Wow.
I can't believe I was able toget a spot.
I'm really excited.
I've been wanting to do this andI really feel like this is going
to be the one.
I can't believe I'm here.
(23:43):
that kind of energy is reallyexciting because it means that
when I ask them to do somethingor I want to lead them through
something, maybe give themoutfit tips.
They're really going to behanging on every word because
they really trust that I'm theprofessional and that I'm going
to guide them in the right way.
Thank you.
Which can be a difference fromif you've got a client who sort
(24:03):
of like I didn't really look atthe websites and I just booked
the first person I found and Ishowed up with a baseball jersey
and a trucker hat and I sure,and a bow and arrow.
And I was like, these are thethings that I want to shoot
with, whatever they're into thatyou may not connect to.
But because There hasn't beenenough, connection or excitement
to shoot with you specifically.
(24:24):
You can kind of get an array ofpeople.
Raymond Hatfield (24:26):
First of all, I love that.
Thank you for sharing that.
I want to dive just a bit deeperinto that because I know that
when we first start off,Essentially, we are looking like
we just want every client thatcomes our way until you get to a
point to where you realize, Oh,wait, I'm actually working with
a lot of people who are not myideal clients.
And you had mentioned that thisis helping you get more ideal
(24:46):
clients so that now when they'rethere in your studio, they're
saying, Oh my gosh, I'm solucky.
I'm excited to be here thatyou've really built up that
connection.
So is the way that you'rebuilding that connection and
finding the ideal clients.
or filtering out who is yourideal client versus not your
ideal client through the seriesof emails that you're sending
them leading up to offeringdates available.
Michael Sasser (25:07):
it's a number of things.
the first thing, that I don'twant people to think is that,
you have to do one extreme orthe other.
So usually when, people who arejust starting, they're like,
well, I don't have a whole bunchof inquiries coming in.
I have to chase everything,which is true, which is.
What I did, which is whateverybody does when they first
start, but the way in which youapproach it doesn't have to be,
(25:27):
in a format which we're chasing.
So some of the language on yourwebsite can show, it starts on
your website in the emails thatyou send in the way that you
talk to them on the phone, thesesorts of things, what you're
trying to do is not necessarily,alienate anybody.
or, you're not trying to book solittle that you don't get work
(25:49):
or you're trying to do is showthem that you're somebody who's
worthwhile shooting for,shooting with more so than you
would do, you would feel luckyto have their business.
So it's basically, that swap.
So in the emails I've got, I'mdiscussing different topics.
So one of the topics I'mdiscussing is posing.
So the first thing everybodythinks is.
(26:10):
Especially for boudoir is I'mgoing to show up.
I'm going to look like an idiotbecause I don't know how to
pose.
And so as much as I can explainto them that they don't have to
do a single thing, all they haveto do is show up.
I'm going to take care of therest is going to relieve a lot
of the pressure on them to tryand perform during the photo
shoot, because what they thinkis it's up to them, whether or
(26:30):
not their pictures are going tobe good.
If I don't know how to pose, mypictures are going to be bad.
If I don't know how to look, mypictures are going to be bad.
And so one of the emails isdedicated to explaining that,
the way they're thinking aboutis incorrect.
The truth is that all you haveto do is show up.
I have an analogy in there, youwouldn't go to a restaurant, And
expect to cook your own food,the chef does that, whether or
(26:52):
not your food is good is not upto you.
it's up to the chef.
that's what one of the emailsdiscusses.
Another one discusses, themovie.
I feel pretty.
Okay, just such a great movie.
And it's basically a woman who,has never felt pretty in her
life.
I think it's Amy Schumer and shebumps her head and all of a
sudden she looks herself in themirror.
She's Whoa, I'm hot.
(27:12):
And nothing changed except justthe way she perceives herself.
And you get to see her movethrough the movie the whole day
as somebody who believes.
that they are beautiful insteadof somebody who believes they're
taking up space in this world.
And I think it's just such anincredible story and so funny.
And we talk about that mentalshift that happens after you get
your boudoir pictures taken,that the way you look doesn't
(27:33):
change, but the way you look atyourself changes.
And so these are the types ofthings I'm trying to cultivate.
I'm trying to let them know thatI know what they're going
through.
I'm familiar with what's goingon in their head.
I've photographed a lot ofdifferent people, and so they're
going to be in good hands.
And what's nice about boudoir isit's not.
a must have experience, seniorportraits, the deadline comes
(27:54):
up.
You got to get your seniorpictures done.
If you don't get your seniorpictures, you're not going to
have any pictures.
You got to have stuff in theyearbook.
Like it's got to happen.
Boudoir is not like that.
So a lot of people are like, Iknow I want to do it, but I'm
curious.
Let me shoot out a couple offeelers and see by doing that.
you'll lose clients.
Absolutely.
The way that I do it, I haveplenty of people that I'm sure.
Sign up for my wait list.
(28:15):
They call another photographerwho gets on the phone with them
that night.
They book with thatphotographer.
I'm okay with that because myown personal goals are six
shoots a month.
Within three months, as long asI booked those 18 clients, I'm
okay.
If a thousand other people hirea thousand other photographers.
so it's important to set yourgoals as to how many you want.
And within what time frame,because otherwise, if you're
(28:37):
booking six shoots a month at 6,000 or whatever your first year
of photography, you're making80, 000 a year, which is
amazing.
If you try and book a hundredpeople a month, you may only
book one because Nobody'schoosing you for you.
Raymond Hatfield (28:51):
Again, I feel like my mind is going in a
million directions right here.
that was a great explanation.
and I know that, setting upthese emails, we can all figure
out whether it's ConvertKit orMailChimp or whatever it is, it
can be done.
But, I guess how do you just saythat you get out of, I don't
know, 30 inquiries on yourwaitlist for the month, say that
you get 13, who you think aregoing to be real good fits.
(29:12):
I guess, how did you come upwith that decision?
And what do you do at thatpoint?
If you only have six dates,
Michael Sasser (29:17):
we get on the phone, and I think boudoir,
especially it's important to geton the phone.
There's some photographers Iknow who book over email.
And they do, they book a ton.
And think it's crazy.
I would never book somebodywithout first speaking to them
on the phone.
so we get on the phone.
once they sign up for the emaillist, I'm going to send out an
email that says, Hey, everybody,this Saturday is a chance to
book your photo shoot, sign upfor a time.
(29:38):
There are 12 slots and then theslots populate.
And I get on the phone with themand we talk, what, why are you
interested in a boudoir shoot?
Unless somebody like reallygives me the heebie jeebies, I'm
not going to say no.
I've had that happen two orthree times where I've said,
well, let me double check mycalendar and I'll get back to
you.
And then I've decided thatthey're not the right client for
me.
Raymond Hatfield (29:57):
Right.
Michael Sasser (29:57):
Pretty much everybody by that point.
I think when people are firststarting out, they have a hard
time showing their brand showinglike, this is what I'm about.
Here's the type of photos you'regoing to get.
This is what past clients havesaid.
Here's a video of me shooting,those sorts of things answer a
ton of the questions so thatwhen you get on the phone with
them, they're already like, Hey,I read that review where the
person said they were nervousand now, and then they had a
(30:19):
great time.
And Hey, I read your about methat said you went through
something when you were youngerAnd that's why you're shooting
boudoir now.
Hey, I Click through yourportfolio.
And I can imagine myself in yourpictures.
If they do all of those things,by the time they get on the
phone with you, it's going to bemuch easier to convert them.
Raymond Hatfield (30:37):
Yeah.
Michael Sasser (30:37):
But if you've got three or four photos and you
say, I like boudoir because Ilike making people feel pretty.
And your testimonial saysMichael was a great
photographer.
I'd highly recommend them.
It's going to be much moredifficult.
First of all, that person whocalls you could be anyone.
And secondly, it's going to bemuch more difficult to connect
with them because you're goingto have to do so much of the
(30:57):
work over the phone.
Raymond Hatfield (30:59):
Yeah.
Michael Sasser (30:59):
Versus already having some of that work done
for you.
So, when you're 10, 15 yearsinto business, you can get at
the point where you can bookpeople over email because you've
got enough reviews and you'vegot enough this and that and the
other.
When you're first starting out,to precede your phone calls,
work on your past clients to getas many reviews as you can.
Put those everywhere on yourwebsite.
(31:19):
If they do sign up for an emaillist, put those reviews in that
first email.
Here's a recent client, whatthey said.
They said they were reallynervous.
They've never done anything likethis before.
They thought they were going tolook silly and now they can't
stop staring at themselves.
That's going to connect withyour potential clients.
They're going to say, okay,that's exactly the experience
that I want.
I'm going to choose them overthe person who just said Michael
(31:40):
was a great photographer.
I highly recommend them.
Raymond Hatfield (31:43):
Right.
Michael Sasser (31:43):
The phone call is, a chance to listen to why
they want to shoot boudoir orany genre.
When somebody says, Hey, I'minterested in high school senior
pictures.
Why is that important to you?
when the mom says, Hey, I'mlooking for a high school senior
portrait photographer for mydaughter.
we're making a few phone callsand you say Around being able to
(32:05):
look back at these pictures atthis time in their life when
they're growing up.
And, do you remember like thefirst time they got pictures
when they were like three yearsold or babies or something and
you can connect on that topic?
Raymond Hatfield (32:15):
Yeah.
Michael Sasser (32:15):
Oh, this person understands why I'm doing it.
I want to hire this person.
Then once you get to price andstuff, it's much easier for them
to spend money.
Because now they want to hireyou for more than just how much
it costs.
Raymond Hatfield (32:29):
Of course, You know what I love?
I love how you broke down soeasy.
not only how that works, how youput it into practice, but also
that it can be applied.
Pretty much anything else withthat last example there.
Like I'm thinking of three orfour ways that I could use that
just in my own weddingphotography.
And I mean, again, it justincreases that demand for your
services.
And in a time where it comes tolike weddings, I know with me
(32:51):
personally, with weddings, itfeels very much like clients
don't really know what it isthat they're looking at, but
there are so many different, youknow, as you said, sub niches of
wedding photography, that itreally comes to education and
figuring out how you get theright.
information to your clients, andI think I'm going to sit on that
for a little bit and brainstormhow I can put that into practice
(33:11):
because I really think thatthat's going to make a huge
change.
And again, for really any styleof photography.
That's great.
Michael Sasser (33:17):
Especially for wedding photography, I would say
that that is something wherepeople typically call a lot of
different people.
And the conversations could berelatively similar.
Well, how did you guys meet?
Raymond Hatfield (33:28):
Yeah.
Michael Sasser (33:29):
if you can find a question that's less common to
connect with them on, to be theperson who's like a little bit
different, who asked like alittle bit more interesting
question.
I think that's a good way Tohelp you stand out as a way to,
yeah, everyone wants to know,how did he propose?
Well, let me tell you for thethousandth time, cause I've told
a thousand other people, youknow, it can be not that those
(33:52):
questions don't have relevance,but as far as the same way to
ask, why are you interested in aboudoir shoot and share a
similar story?
That you've gone through or forpeople that I've known in my
life or, to dig a little bit sothat they feel like, wow, I'm
opening up to this person alittle bit.
I must be comfortable with thisperson.
now I feel like I want to hirethis person specifically is a
much more powerful tool to bookyour clients than how much do
(34:17):
you cost?
yeah, because that's just anumber.
Raymond Hatfield (34:20):
Right, right.
And it doesn't tell anything.
It doesn't tell you anything.
Unfortunately, there are so manyphotographers, who I would say
are within my same price range,but are wildly different in
terms of styles.
And it's really unfortunatebecause now I feel like the
weight falls on me because Ihave to make sure that I'm not
going to take a client who wantsa certain style That I'm not an
expert at delivering, you knowwhat I mean?
(34:42):
So yeah, I could see how thiscould be an amazing thing here.
I really appreciate you sharingthe last thing
Michael Sasser (34:47):
I want to, yeah.
The last thing I want to sayabout that is.
There's a lot of discussion onlike, oh, you shouldn't charge a
hundred dollars.
You shouldn't charge$200.
The point isn't like, at whatpoint are you pricing yourself?
There's plenty of people whoonly have a hundred dollars to
spend, or there's plenty ofpeople who only have$200 to
spend.
And what an amazing thing forthem to be able to have quality
photography.
the point is, even if that'swhere you're starting, don't
(35:08):
make that the main reason whysomebody would choose you.
Raymond Hatfield (35:13):
Mm-Hmm.
Michael Sasser (35:14):
And especially if that's where you're at and
that's the clients that you'regetting, use all of that to
position yourself.
if it's important to you to earnmore, to start earning, one,
two, three, 4, 000 per client,then use that as part of your
journey.
To learn how to connect on amore emotional level, because
that's what makes people spendmoney.
(35:35):
Nobody spends 500 on shoesbecause they're more
comfortable.
Right.
Um, because how, how it makesyou feel when you're wearing
those shoes.
Right.
Raymond Hatfield (35:47):
Yeah, of course, this has been wonderful.
Michael, I hate to, cut it offhere, but I know that we're
coming to the end of our time.
And you have just shared so muchonce again, you are an open
book, and you're more than happyto talk about, exactly how your
business works, which I think isgreat, especially in a world of
don't want to say that boudoirphotography is very secretive,
but just in its very nature, itfeels more private than other
(36:10):
forms of photography.
So for you to be that person tosay, Hey, I'm here.
I'm open.
I'm willing to help.
I know like how this works andyou can do it too, is very
refreshing and I can tell itcomes through and all of your
answers.
So I appreciate you being soopen and honest with all of your
answers today.
Michael Sasser (36:26):
Absolutely.
I appreciate that.
First of all, I think boudoir isan amazing genre and it does a
lot of good for the world.
And the more people that aregood at it and charge what it's
worth, the more everyone willstart to understand its value.
You could think Oh, if morepeople know about it, then I
won't be able to charge as much.
But, something really funnyhappened when Starbucks came
(36:48):
out, they thought they weregoing to put all the other
coffee shops out of business,but what it did was create a
coffee culture that All thelittle coffee shops started to
get way more business too.
Raymond Hatfield (36:56):
Yeah.
Michael Sasser (36:57):
Starbucks brought coffee to the
mainstream, more so.
And now everybody knows thevalue of having a nice warm cup
of coffee in the morning.
I don't drink coffee, but formost people it does.
And same for boudoir.
The more people who are good atit and can connect on an
emotional level and take qualitypictures, the more everybody
wins.
Raymond Hatfield (37:17):
what do you do to get ready in the morning?
If you don't drink coffee,
Michael Sasser (37:19):
uh, I just get eight hours of sleep and
Raymond Hatfield (37:23):
you wake up ready to go.
You're just excited for the dayto
Michael Sasser (37:25):
sit down on my computer and start clicking
away.
Raymond Hatfield (37:28):
That's awesome.
Well, Michael, before I let yougo, why don't you let people
know where they can find outmore about you and what it is
that you do online?
Michael Sasser (37:34):
Absolutely.
So, I basically have a couple ofchannels that wish you can
connect with me if you guys arelooking for free, tutorials.
around boudoir, then I've got aYouTube channel that has a ton,
75, 80 videos on the topic.
I mean, you could just bingewatch, a ton and get started,
which is really exciting.
So that's the first thing.
the second thing is the nextfree avenue would be my
(37:56):
Instagram page, I'm posting, I'mdoing Instagram lives.
I'm doing some different stufflike that, which is really fun.
Also, I've got a Facebook groupfor photographers.
so you can check that out.
So my YouTube channel is just mylast name, Michael Sasser.
You can just Google that.
my Instagram page issasserstillsboudoirstills, like
still photograph.
And then my, Facebook group isfacebook.
(38:17):
com group slash sassereducation.
those are all three places thatyou can do.
if you guys want more in depth,step by step business related
tutorials, I've got.
Onlinecourses@boudoircourses.com and,
that's the setup.
I had a blast.
Thank you so much.
Raymond Hatfield (38:35):
Alright, huge thank you to Michael for coming
on the podcast and sharingeverything that he did.
How about we go ahead and recapwhat we have learned today.
The first thing is to buildemotional connections.
When you are communicating withpotential clients, build an
emotional connection by tellingstories rather than focusing on
features or number of productsor photos that they may get.
(38:56):
When you are able to understandyour client's motivation for
booking you, then you'll be ableto make them feel way more
comfortable and excited abouttheir shoot.
Next implement an effectivebooking system.
I love, love, love, love thisone.
When you respect your time, yourclients will too, meaning,
structure a work schedule thatworks for you.
For you, whatever your, idealis, whatever your dream is, and
(39:20):
that means setting very specificshoot times to a defined window.
Capping the number of shootsthat you will take, and if you
got to make a waitlist, make awaitlist because that will
create exclusivity.
So good.
And lastly, showcase truebeauty.
This right here is the mark of atrue photographer.
(39:40):
Learning what somebody does notlove about themselves, and then
being able to capture them, andtheir self imposed
imperfections, and, be able tostill create an image that they
love.
Not only love, but then bebuilds their self confidence,
that is truly amazing.
You know, it's not aboutPhotoshop.
It is about the in personexperience.
So that is the last takeawaythere.
(40:00):
I want to hear your biggesttakeaway from this episode here
with Michael Sasser.
Feel free to share it in thefree and amazing beginner
photography podcast community,which you can join right now
over at beginnerphotopod.
com forward slash group.
That is it for today.
Remember until next week, themore that you shoot today, the
better of a photographer thatyou will be tomorrow.
(40:21):
Talk soon.
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