Crafting Impactful Narratives Through Long-Term Projects with Dan Milnor

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dan Milnor (00:00):
Digital online and technology are all fine, but

(00:02):
there is a different level ofconsideration when it comes to
print, especially high levels ofthe industry, because print
signifies a couple of things.
And number one is it signifiesconcerted thought specific
thought about your work becausethere's a big difference between
putting your portfolio on aniPad and putting it into a book

(00:23):
form because the book forces youto apply critical thinking to
your work.
What's the best image?
What's the cover?
What's the sequence?
What's my edit?
And the book is confrontationalbecause you have to put your
phone down to look at it.

Raymond Hatfield (00:37):
Hey, hey.
Welcome to the BeginnerPhotography Podcast.
I'm your host, Raymond Hatfield,and each week I interview one of
the world's most interestingphotographers to learn what it
really takes to capturebeautiful images so that you can
start to do the same.
In today's Rewind episode, weare chatting with
photojournalist and documentaryphotographer Dan Milner, about
mastering the skills that reallymatter in photography today.

(01:00):
But first, the beginner ofPhotography podcast is brought
to you by Cloud Spot, so yourphotos through print products,
and of course digitals.
With cloud clouds mind, you canset up a storefront in minutes
and start earning more withevery gallery you deliver.
So grab your free foreveraccount today
over@deliverphotos.com and onlyupgrade when you're ready.
Over the past 25 or 30 yearswith a total adoption of digital

(01:22):
photography, the time thatjournalists have to capture a
story becomes less and less.
And sometimes it can feel likethe world demands our images
right now.
Even if you're not like workingfor a newspaper, I got home from
a wedding before and afterexplicitly telling the bride
that I would have sneak peeksfor her the following day.
I.

(01:43):
She texted me the night of thewedding and asked me if I was
close to finishing those sneakpeeks that night.
I wasn't even home yet.
If you love telling stories withyour camera, you're going to
love today's interview with DanMilner because he's taken the
opposite approach and starteddocumenting long-term projects.
These are stories that take timeto produce not in hours or days,

(02:03):
but in years.
And the additional time allowshim to go deeper into a story
and create a much richer set ofimages.
They'll truly make an impact.
So in today's episode with DanMilner, you're gonna learn how
to embrace the idea of projects,why you should prioritize print
over digital when puttingtogether a story.
And how to develop your ownunique photographic voice by

(02:26):
focusing on original work.
There's a lot here.
And real quick, I just wanted tosay thank you for tuning in to
the Beginner Photographypodcast.
I know that there's a ton ofphotography podcasts out there,
You chose this one specificallySo that you can learn something
that's gonna help you become abetter photographer.
So don't waste that opportunity.
Pay attention.

(02:47):
Don't zone out, and don't doomscroll while listening.
Alright, with that, let's goahead and get on into today's
interview.
Today's guest is Dan Milner, aself proclaimed creative
evangelist, with over 25 yearsof professional photography
experience, disinclined tosocial media.
He's a film shooter and his workcan be found in the Los Angeles

(03:08):
museum of art, as well as theGeorge Eastman house.
Today.
I am so incredibly excited totalk to Dan.
Dan, thank you so much forcoming on the podcast.

Dan Milnor (03:16):
Of course, thanks for having me.
I love talking about this stuff.

this is a fun one for me.
I learned about you through amutual, friend of ours, Mark
Silber.
Uh oh.
Who is, uh, Oh yeah.
Quite a guy.
I mean, this guy obviously hasbeen in it for a long time, and
the way that he kind of seesphotography is very different
compared to how a lot of otherphotographers today talk about
photography.
And when you two sat down andhad your conversation, I knew

(03:40):
that you As well would be aperfect fit for the podcast to
kind of share your story ofphotography.
You have a very different takethan a lot of other
photographers, but before wereally get on into all of that.
Can you take me back to when youfirst picked up a camera?
What was that like for you?

Dan Milnor (03:56):
I think you have to go, slightly further back.
It wasn't, what made me pick upa camera was my mom picking up a
camera.
So, when I was a kid, we livedfrom Indiana to Wyoming to Texas
and my mom had a Pentax K1000and Kodachrome.
And she had this Halliburtoncase.
Yeah, her camera's probablystill out there.
Someone's probably still usingit.
Those things are bulletproof.
And, uh, everywhere I went, wehad that Halliburton case.

(04:19):
So in Wyoming, if we were in onetruck, you always had to move
the Halliburton case over andmom was shooting all the time.
So the idea of recording with acamera was always kind of in the
back of my head.
And, I started actually writingbefore I did photography, which
I still do, I write every day.
But I, I would, I just startedwriting like fictional short
stories when I was in elementaryschool and I would write down

(04:42):
conversations that I heard andmy parents talking to their
friends.
And I don't know why I did thatexactly, but I just started
recording and the camera becamesort of an extension of the
writing, whereas I just, and Istill feel the same today.
I just have this need to recordthings.
Even if no one sees what I'mrecording or reads or any of
that, I just do it constantlyand it's an addiction.

(05:02):
It's a curse, whatever you wantto call it.
And then I got out of highschool.
And, I actually had ascholarship as a shooter, a
shotgun shooter, believe it ornot.
which was a really goodscholarship and it was to a very
good academic school.
And the coach that taught theshooting team, they traveled
internationally.
It was a really amazing thing.
He had seen me shooting when Iwas a little kid.

(05:23):
And he came to my dad and said,you know, pay it when he's
older.
If he can qualify, get into theschool, I'll give him a
scholarship as a shooter.
And so my life was headedtowards that and also studying
geology.
I really wanted to be ageologist and the admissions
building.
And the admissions program atthat college was moving.
And in the process of moving,they lost a huge number of

(05:44):
incoming transcripts, includingmine.
And so the Dean of admissionscalled my mom and said, look,
it's our fault.
We have no record of him.
So he's going to have to gosomewhere for a semester and
then transfer in the followingsemester.
And the only school left openwas San Antonio college, which
was a two year community schoolI knew nothing about all I knew
was that all I thought The onlypeople that go to SAC are the

(06:06):
ones who can't get in anywhereelse.
And so I was sort of heavyhearted.
I went down there, I signed upfor basic classes, English,
history, whatever, that wouldtransfer to this other school.
And lo and behold, I find outthat they have one of the best
journalism programs, in thecountry, run by a guy named
Jerry Townsend.
And Jerry was like a no nonsenseguy who basically saw some
images that I'd made and said,Hey, if you want to be a

(06:27):
photographer, I'll give you ascholarship to be a
photographer.
And that was it, man.
And I had, I walked in RudyGonzalez.
Who's the photographer.
I think at the Rocky mountain,no, the Rocky mountain is gone.
I don't know where Rudy is now,but Rudy, it was amazing.
Photographer was the firstperson I met in the program.
And he walked up to me with a.
And an old Nikon with a screwmount, 35 millimeter, and he
gave me this little printoutthat was the Sunny 16 rule for

(06:50):
exposure, and he gave me anassignment.
So literally, I had never used acamera for real, and I was,
going out on assignment.
It was that quick, and youlearned very, very quickly
working on a daily paper withblinds.
It was a weekly paper, I think,at the school.
Anyway, it freaked me out.
I was terrified for about fiveminutes and then I just said, I
have to own this I'm not gonnago halfway, I'm gonna make this

(07:12):
my life.
And that was it.

Wow.
So let me go back there.
when you first showed up to SanAntonio College and you decided
to take this journalism class,was it through the stories that
you were writing?
Is that what you were, gettingthe scholarship in or was it
through the photographs that youhad shown?
Um,

Dan Milnor (07:28):
so.
My mom and I were driving homeone day in San Antonio, and
there was a massive floodhappening.
And so, when I got outta highschool, I was in the, merchant
marine program out of Texas aand m at Galveston.
That was like a four monthprogram.
And one of my roommates on theship had a camera and he was
kind of serious aboutphotography and the ship had a

(07:49):
photographer.
And I remember being in thatship and watching the ship's
photographer work.
And I had never seen a humanmove the way that this guy
moved.
And I couldn't figure out why hewas moving the way he was.
And then after about a month anda half on the ship, I realized.
He was following light, he waslooking at light, and he was
moving himself into positionsfor light, and I had never
thought about light before.

(08:09):
So, when I got off the MerchantMarine ship, I picked up a
camera, I found an old camera ina closet in our house, and I
started wandering around withthis thing, no idea what I'm
doing.
My mom and I are driving homeone day, and there's a flood
happening, and we come to a lowwater crossing, and there's a
school bus full of kids that'sabout to get swept over this
bridge.
Oh my gosh.
And the Army's brought in, orthe Air National Guard, or

(08:29):
somebody's brought in this bigchin up, double screw
helicopter, and they're tryingto lift this bus out.
And so we're just standing therewatching, and I'm like, you
know, Hey, I have a camera,maybe I should take pictures of
this.
So, I shoot a couple ofpictures, and then I shoot a
couple of other pictures duringthe flood, and I'm at lunch, at
school, with a bunch of friends,sitting around a table, and I
have these little 4x6s on thetable, and I'm showing my

(08:51):
friends, like, Hey, look howgreat I am, I did these
pictures.
And this instructor walks by andhe leans over and he goes, who
took those?
And I thought I was in trouble.
So I'm like, they're not mine.
I didn't take them.
And so we're all sitting thereand everyone's like, nope, don't
know where they came from.
They're not ours.
And he goes, I'm not leaving.
I know one of you took these.
And that was Jerry Townsend,actually.
He was the head of thejournalism department.

(09:12):
And I said, okay, I didn't wantmy friends to get in trouble.
I said, okay, these are mine.
And he said, I'll give you ascholarship if you want to be a
photographer.
and, this was a communitycollege.
The scholarship was probablyless than a hundred dollars.
It probably paid for my books.
But what I didn't realize wasthat.
Jerry was, had a reallyremarkable career and Jerry was
driven.
And again, he was no nonsense.

(09:32):
This was prior to the internet.
This was prior to digitaltechnology.
This was prior to politicalcorrectness.
This was prior to having tobasically baby people who were
getting into photography.
This was high pressure, highdemand.
You know, do not mess up.
If you come back without animage, don't bother coming back
kind of thing.
And so you're on assignment andpeople who were there are taking

(09:56):
it very seriously, whetheryou're a writer or a
photographer.
So the first assignment I hadwas as a writer and I got sent
to a bomb threat in one of thebuildings on campus.
And on the way there, I thought,I wonder why they're sending me.
It's I'm probably I'mexpendable.
And then I got over there andthey said, Hey, we don't have a
photographer free.
Can you make pictures?
And I said, I don't really know.
And that's when Rudy gave me thecamera and the lens and the sun

(10:17):
16 rule for exposure.
And I, I did a couple ofassignments and I never went
back to writing.
Even though I write every day, Inever did it for a career.

Oh my gosh.
Wow.
What a way to get intophotography.
Like, Hey, here's the camera.
Uh, let's go photograph apossible, life, ending situation
here.
That's insane.
And

Dan Milnor (10:34):
the funny thing is the first assignment I had after
that was to photograph a speakerwho I don't remember who it is
now.
He's a well known guy.
I show up and it's in anauditorium and there are at
least 300 people in thisauditorium.
And I'm like, I have a 50.
I'm like, I have to be rightnext to this guy.
I have to be up on the stage orin front and everybody in the
room is going to see me.

(10:55):
And I stood in the back of theauditorium for a couple of
minutes and I was reallynervous.
I thought, man, I don't want todo this.
And then I thought, you know, Imade a decision that I've stuck
with for the rest of my life.
And it was a great decision, howI came to it.
I don't know, but I, I justsaid, look, I'm never going to
see anyone in this room everagain.
And if I go up there and tripand fall over and everyone gets

(11:16):
a laugh out of it, that'sprobably the worst thing that
can happen.
So I'm going to own this and I'mgoing to go and move where I
need to move to get thepictures.
And I did.
And I still remember what thepicture looked like.
I still remember where it ranthe paper at the school was
called the Ranger.
And, uh, yeah, it was prettygreat.
It was a great way to learnphotography.

Yeah.
Very cool.
Very cool.
Especially to get one of yourfirst images printed.
pretty rare.
that's awesome.
So, I kind of want to know alittle bit more about, because
at that moment you had decidedthat you were going to stay at
San Antonio College, is thatcorrect?
to fulfill this, uh, no, that'snot what happened.

Dan Milnor (11:49):
No, I, I was there knowing it was a short term
gain.
I still had the shootingscholarship and the geology
school in play, had I wanted togo that direction.
But, once I started shootingphotographs.
was like, Oh, this is kind ofwhat I've been waiting to do my
whole life.
And so I looked around for afour year school that was in
state that had a goodphotojournalism department.

(12:10):
And at the time this, that wascool.
That stood out was, Texas, UTAustin.
and at the time, this is prettyfunny now because, UT Austin,
like all other colleges inAmerica have changed
dramatically and they're so,they're so expensive.
what people are paying to go toschool there now is as beyond my
comprehension.
So literally this was like twoweeks before classes started and

(12:33):
I was like, I think I want to goto Texas.
So I applied and they were like,yeah, sure.
Come on up.
I got in.
I paid more for books than I didfor tuition.
I think my tuition was less than300 bucks for the semester.
And yeah, and I studiedphotojournalism and I had minors
in Spanish and anthropology.
And it was good.
The program during the eightieshad been one of the premier

(12:55):
Programs in the country.
And when I got there, I wouldsay that the program was in
somewhat of a trough.
It hadn't sort of kept up withsome other programs like the
university of Missouri, WesternKentucky.
These were photojournalismschools.
and then you had the big artschools, like, center in
Pasadena, you had Parsons and,ICP in New York.
And, they were very differentkinds of things.
We were very specific tophotojournalism.

(13:16):
And so I realized very shortlyafter getting to school that
whatever I was going to come outwith was going to be on my
shoulders, not from the facultysaying, you're going to do this
because the faculty was trainingus to go in one direction.
And I realized immediately thatI needed to go in another
direction.
And, consequently, I sort offell out of favor, I think, with
some of the faculty who justlooked at me as either arrogant

(13:38):
or, something.
Because I said, look, I want toknow black and white, I want to
photograph black and white, butI need to know color.
Because if I get out and I wantto be a magazine photographer,
everybody's shootingtransparency.
I can't shoot tri X all thetime.

Yeah.

Dan Milnor (13:51):
And they were like, no, no, no, you're going to
shoot Tri X and a 28 millimeterand everyone's going to love it.
And I knew that was not going tobe the case.
And so I got very fortunate.
I started shooting color rightaway and I bought a police
scanner, an old police scanner.
And every night I would drivefrom my horrible apartment to
the I 35, which splits Austin,north to south.

(14:13):
And I would park, underneath theI 35 and I would turn on the
police scanner and I would justwait because.
East Austin at that time wasvery unsettled.
There were huge gang problems.
there was a lot of crime.
There was a lot of stuffhappening.
And at the time I thought, Oh,as a photojournalist, this is
kind of what I'm supposed tophotograph.
So I would go and I just would,you know, the police scanner

(14:35):
would crackle and it would say,box alarm, whatever, or they had
codes for domestic violence,they had codes for shooting.
And I learned what all the codeswere and I would show up.
Oftentimes, I was the firstperson on the scene.
I'd be there before any lawenforcement.
And this was another educationthat I never saw coming was how
to navigate in the field.
And when you, when your policescanner goes off and you roll up

(14:56):
on a crime scene and there's noone there, it's not just about
photography.
It's about, you know, All theselogistics and scenarios that you
have to understand before youcan actually get in, make
successful pictures, and getout.
You know, where do you park yourvehicle?
If you park and you block anemergency responder, you're in
trouble.
If something goes sideways andyour truck is blocked and you

(15:16):
can't get out, then you're introuble.
All these different things, doessomebody need help for more
than, you know, does that trumpmaking pictures kind of things?
And so, while I was out onenight photographing a house
fire, a guy approached me, olderguy, suit and tie, oddly enough,
even out of fire, and he was theAustin Fire Department
photographer, a guy named ErwinHaddon.

(15:37):
And Erwin said, you know, I'veseen you around at these fires.
Who are you?
What are you doing?
I told him it's photo journalismstudent.
And he said to me, do you wantto know how to print color?
And I said, yeah, because wedon't, they're not going to let
us print color for like anothertwo years.
He said, come to the firedepartment.
I have a dark room.
I'll teach you how to printcolor.
And

he did.

Dan Milnor (15:55):
And.
Everyone was, really great.
He was a guy that like bent overbackwards to help me.
And, at school you had theseJobo processors to do a color
print, which take about 10, 000years to make a print and, you
know, they're good and they'refun.
But after a while you're like,okay, I'd love not have to spend
45 minutes on this print.

(16:16):
So Erwin had an automated colorprocessor and an enlarger with a
color head.
And he taught me not only how toprint color, but then also told
me how to use color settings toprint black and white.
And that like blew my mind open.
So I got lucky and, I had a goodrun at the paper.
I started to freelance while Iwas still in school.
I was doing assignments for thedaily Texan, which was the paper
at UT.
Really good paper.

(16:37):
And the people I was workingwith, I mean, John McConnico,
who went on to AP, John Moore,who's at AP, Jean Franc, uh,
Jean Marc Bijoux, who won twoPulitzers at AP.
We didn't hang out a whole lot,but these were my, fellow
students.
Scott Dalton, who's covered thedrug war in Colombia for 10
years.
I went to school with somereally amazing photographers.

Oh my goodness.
So, just before we move on, howlong were you a night crawler
going in and photographingthese, possibly horrific scenes?
How long were you doing thatfor?

Dan Milnor (17:07):
I did that in Austin for a couple of years, and then
my first internship, as of, so Igot out of school and I looked
forever to try to find aninternship.
And this is kind of a longstory, but I'll spare you the
details, but at the time, it wasincredibly difficult to find
internships.
Yeah.
And I kept getting rejected forall kinds of reasons.
very rarely was it aboutimagery.

(17:28):
It was always about extraneousthings that would keep me from
getting these internships.
But I finally got one.
I think, I don't know forcertain, I think someone called
on my behalf.
I think I know who it was thatcalled on my behalf.
But, he has never admitted doingso.
But anyway, I got thisinternship in the Arizona
Republic in Phoenix.
And it was amazing because theRepublic had a huge budget.

(17:48):
it's a big paper.
It's a state paper.
They did international,national, local news.
They covered the whole state.
They had a big staff.
but I worked the 3 to 11, 3 p.
m.
to 11 p.
m.
shift as an intern.
And after 7 o'clock, because itwas a morning paper, unless a
UFO landed in the middle ofdowntown, nothing you shot after

(18:09):
7 p.
m.
was going to make the paper,basically.
So I had my police scanner and Iwould leave the paper and I
would drive straight south onCentral Avenue and I would pull
over and South Phoenix at thescene at the time was a war
zone.
It was not a happy place to beafter sunset.
And so for me as a photographeragain, I was like, Oh, I'm a
journalist.
I'm supposed to be doing thisstuff.
So I started shooting the samething and it was worse than

(18:31):
Austin.
You know, every night there's alot of bad stuff happening.
And so I got to know some of thepolice department.
I got to know some of the firedepartment.
And I also began to editorialpolicy and marketing and
advertising and how what you sawin the paper was not necessarily
representative of the news.
Because I started coming backwith images that were not
popular in the newsroom becausemanagement saw them and said, No

(18:55):
one's going to buy the paper ifwe're showing this stuff and
we're trying to sell ads forgolf courses and they don't want
to see domestic violenceshootouts in South Phoenix.
and so what I started to do is Icompiled this huge folder of all
the work that I've made inPhoenix in the middle of the
night.
And when I quit at the paper andmoved on, I went to the photo

(19:15):
editor and just dropped it onhis desk and said, you can kind
of deny that this is happeningin the city, but this This is
happening in the city.
You're supposed to be a newsorganization.
You have to cover everything.
Yes.
The golf course is important.
Yes.
The Phoenix suns are importantand the Cardinals and I get it.
It's, you know, and that's thething about community paper is
you have to cover the community.
And thankfully by the time Ileft South Phoenix was making

(19:37):
some progress and I don't knowwhat it's like now, but you
know, most of these places havebeen gentrified to some degree.
The violence levels are down.
I mean, there exceptions countrywhere there's some pretty dicey
places out there.
But, I learned a lot, and thefact that I could speak Spanish,
the police loved it because Iwould show up sometimes at like
domestic disputes and translate.
No way.
Yeah.

(19:57):
They would say, hey, do youspeak Spanish?
Yeah, I speak Spanish.
Well, hey, what is he saying toher and vice versa?
And I'm like and at the time Iforget what I was probably like
22

Yeah,

Dan Milnor (20:07):
I'm walking around like is this really happening?

Yeah,

Dan Milnor (20:09):
and

I'd be getting paid for this

Dan Milnor (20:11):
And just crazy scenes, you know, I mean, I got
shot at once in Austin at alittle league baseball game.
There were people all over theplace.
There had to be 2000 peoplearound.
And I was photographing a kidwho was part of a gang in
Austin, and I'd known him for along time.
We'd spent like four monthstogether and we were hanging
out.
I was with his gang and we wereall sort of hanging around,

(20:33):
drinking beer, hanging out inthis little section of the
barrio that was theirs.
And someone came in and said,Hey, so and so from this rival
gang called EGV, East GrandeBarrio there, he's at this other
location and, you know, we'vegot to go get him.
And so they all run to go.
And I was like, well, I want togo to take pictures.
And I didn't know what get himmeant.

(20:53):
You know, I was like, oh,they're probably going to fight.
And so, we roll up and I get outof the car and like an idiot,
first of all, at a 24 millimeterlens on, which is, you Mistake
number one.
Number two, I've strove on,major mistake.
Number three, I put myself inthe worst possible position,
which was between the guys thatI was with and between the guy

(21:13):
that they were going after.
But there were people all over.
There was a little leaguebaseball game happening to my
right.
There was another one behind me.
And I was like, nothing's gonna,yeah, nothing's gonna happen
here.
And then I heard a window break,car window.
And it just, I saw literally.
It was like, it was as if agunshot had gone off.
All the people at the littleleague games collectively went

(21:34):
like this.
Everybody froze duck and startedtaking cover.
And again, I'm like lookingaround, not quite putting it
together.
And then full auto rounds guide,the guy whose car window was
broken, gets is trapped in theparking lot.
He stands up, turns around withfully automatic and just on
loads on the parking lot.

(21:55):
So like I'm hearing these roundshitting.
And I'm like, maybe I shouldtake cover.
I didn't take any photographs,which is not, not good.
But I remember looking down atmy feet and there was a mom and
a little boy behind the frontwheel of a car.
and you could tell that this wasnot, the first time they'd had
to do this, that this was, thiskind of violence was relatively

(22:17):
common.
And so the whole thing, youknow, 10 seconds goes by.
I have no idea what I did.
I wake up and I'm next to her onthe ground behind the car.
And the guy that's shooting isdriven away.
And I waited and I waited forthe police to show up and nobody
showed up.
Nobody came.
And then at about 10 minuteslater, the games were gone
again.
Everyone's back playing.
And I was like, wow, this is a,you can get used to anything.

Wow.
So tell me that you made theconscious decision.
Not to take any photos in thatmoment.

Dan Milnor (22:46):
No, hell no.
I didn't know what I was doing.
I froze.
I mean, I there's a 10 to 15second period where I have no
idea what I did.
I got from standing down to theground.
So I did something smart, butthe other thing was the distance
involved with a 24 and a strobe.
If I had to pop the strobe, itwould have highlighted my
position, which is probably nota good idea.
And with a 24, he would havebeen, you know, microscopic in

(23:08):
the frame.
And I just, it was just a badmove.
It was bad all the way around,but I didn't get shot.
So,

yeah, well, yeah, you're here today and I'm,
thankful for that.
I'm sure that you're thankfulfor that as well.
Wow.
but I also realized that,

Dan Milnor (23:19):
you know, the sort of getting shot at thing was not
something that I was keen on.

Oh yeah.

Dan Milnor (23:25):
and the other thing was, the idea of having a
picture of the guy doing theshooting was not what was
intriguing to me.
What was intriguing to me wasthe game starting again five
minutes later.
And the fact that this wasconditioned, this was a
conditioned response toperpetual, Simmering sort of
crime and violence and you getused to it.

(23:48):
And all of a sudden, it'snormal.
It's like, Oh, they're notshooting at me.
This is totally fine.
I'll, I'll be fine.
That's what was intriguing tome.
And that is really the momentthat I went from being a photo
journalist to a documentaryphotographer that I was not, the
frontline stuff was not, I don'tthink I had the fortitude to do
the frontline stuff, but what Idid have was the fortitude to do
long term stories.

Yeah.
I definitely want to get into.
To you as a documentarian anddoing these long form stories.
as I think that sets you apartfrom a lot of other
photographers, but as youmentioned as well, a lot of
people are, you know, we'restill kind of, under the
impression that you should go tocollege to make it in a
profession that, that you wantto be in.

(24:30):
But with the rising cost ofcollege, a lot of people are
wondering, you know, isphotography something that you
really need to go to school for?
So I'm sure that When you madethe decision to go to, Texas and
Austin to go specifically prettymuch for, photography, I want to
know, what did you hope to haveor what did you hope to know by
the time you left school?

(24:50):
And do you think that it's stillas important to go to college
today, as it was when you went?

Dan Milnor (24:56):
What did I hope to get out of it?
Well, you know, fame, fortune,of course.
Fame and fortune.

Right out of college?

Dan Milnor (25:01):
No, And I had an apartment right in the middle of
all the sororities, which was agood move.
That was, that was a good move,in hindsight.
No, let me think about that.
What was my goal getting out?
I wanted to be a professionalphotographer, and at the time
there was a clear footpath thatyou followed to go from A to B,
to C to D, and how you became aphotographer.
the short answer to the secondpart of the question is, it's

(25:22):
not necessary, it's not criticalessential to go to college.
However, in my opinion, it iscritical to actually learn
photography.
So whether you do that incollege or you do that.
With a mentorship program, oryou do that through a series of
workshops or a combination ofall the above.
If you're going to be alegitimate photographer, and
this is where people are goingto take offense at some of this,

(25:43):
I know, but there's a bigdifference between being an
online photographer and being anactual photographer.
There are two industries workingsimultaneously.
You have the online photocommunity and you have the on
earth, real time human beingeditors, agents, agencies,
assignments, and professionalphotographers.
These are two entirely separategroups of people that oftentimes

(26:06):
don't even recognize oneanother.
They don't know any, they don'tknow each other.
So, for example, you can have aguy that has a million Instagram
followers who does YouTube thathas a ton of followers and blah,
blah, blah.
And if you said to any agent oreditor or photo art buyer in the
photo industry and said, Haveyou ever heard of this person?
There's a good chance they'regoing to say no idea who that
is, because that's the onlinephoto world.

(26:28):
The online photo world to me isvery deceptive, because you have
a lot of people selling things.
And so, you know, hey look atme, and basically it's based on
numbers, based on following andtraffic.
And that's a very dangerousthing, very different thing from
saying here's a really goodphotographer.
I know tons of goodphotographers, elite level
people, who have no socialfollowing whatsoever.
because they're busy working allthe time.

Yeah.

Dan Milnor (26:50):
They're actually doing real assignments.
They're doing editorial work,they're doing commercial
advertising, fashion, fine art,automotive, etc.
So these two very differentthings.
There was no internet when I gotout of school.
So my goal was to get into thephotography world for real.
I wanted to make my living fromphotography and that meant I
wanted to have health insurance.

(27:10):
I wanted to have money in thebank.
I've never been a believer inthis concept of the starving
artist.
I think that there are plenty ofstarving artists, but I think
that that in some ways issomething that you have to
mentally get over.
There's no reason if you're a,if you're capable of making
unique work.
And that's easier said thandone.
But if you're capable of makingunique work, there's no reason
to starve.
you have to be intelligent aboutit, but there's a way of doing

(27:32):
it.
At least there was at the time.
So I got out of school knowingthat I needed to get a job at a
newspaper.
That was step one.
And then while I was at thenewspaper, after I had been
there for a while, I would startfreelancing for editorial
clients on the side, magazineclients.
And then eventually, when youhad enough magazine clients, you
would leave the newspaper andyou would jump into the magazine
world.
And from the magazine world,that led to commercial

(27:54):
photography, and from commercialphotography to advertising.
Where the serious money is.
And that's still true to thisday, is advertising photography
is really where the massivebudgets are.
Not nearly as massive as theyonce were.
Mm hmm.
But the ultimate end game was tobe able to shoot advertising
very sporadically, just enoughfor me to be able to pay for my

(28:14):
own documentary projects.
That's really the rub is mostdocumentary photographers.
It seems like a significantpercentage are doing other kinds
of work to try to make money todo their own projects.
that's the key.
It's hard.
It's not easy.
It's getting harder every day.

Yeah.
So as a documentarian, In yourown words, what would you say is
your job as the photographer?
What do you have to do orcapture to consider your job a
success?
I

Dan Milnor (28:42):
think you have to make original work.
That's the key.
It's very easy for me to goonline and see what somebody
else has done and go out andcopy it.
There's people are doing thatevery day.
Every generation ofphotographer, every generation,
there's a handful of peopleworldwide.
That come along that addssomething new to the
conversation.
I am not one of those people.

(29:02):
I wish I was, but I'm not, butevery, you know, you have
Sebastian, you had, let's go wayback.
You have Gene Smith, W.
Gene Smith, documentaryphotographer, probably the best
documentary photographer that'sever lived after Gene Smith.
The next person that jumps outto me would be somebody like
Ster Solgado.
And so Gado was not only a goodphotographer, but he was able to
secure funding.
He was able to secure long-termassignments.

(29:24):
He was able to envision wherehis projects would be in 10
years time.
Wow.

And

Dan Milnor (29:29):
so Gado would, also work on a project for 10 years
before it was released.
So he did, his first project,big one that got recognition was
the famine in Ethiopia.
And then he did a project in theAmericas, then he did workers,
and these were 10 yearincrements.
And so Gato would come tosomeone like Kodak, where I
worked at one point, and hewould say, I want X amount of

(29:50):
money, and they would give it tohim.
Because he'd come in and say, ifyou give me this money, this is
what's gonna transpire.
And it was all worked out overlike a 5, 6, 7 year period, and
you're like, nobody else isdoing this, wow, that's
remarkable.
Really the key being aphotographer is to try to tell
unique stories in a way thatpeople can immediately recognize
who did the work.
And that's hard today whenthere's so many people working
and so much of the work you seelooks exactly the same.

(30:12):
and it's hard.
It took me ten years of shootingevery day to figure out what I
was doing, literally ten years.

I believe it.
I believe it.
So, was it your work for thepaper, which seems very run and
gun do it now.
Let's tell the story right away,which is Maybe I'm wrong, but I
would consider kind of shortform.
did that kind of, Open you up tothe idea of long form stuff or
get you excited for that?

Dan Milnor (30:38):
Yeah, so the the daily paper, especially a big
daily where you're gettingmultiple assignments every day,
you get up in the morning, youget There's a little basket that
has your name on it.
And it is a stack of paper andeach one of those is an
assignment.
And the beauty of that is that,and we're shooting at the time,
I'm shooting 35 millimetertransparency film.
So I'm shooting slide film.

(30:58):
This is not easy.
It's not easy.
You got to get it right.
Your exposure has to be right.
And the assignment range on atypical day would go something
like this.
city council meeting in awindowless room.
With three people and overheadfluorescent lighting, which
meant you had to put a greenmagenta filter on your camera
and a green gel on your strobe,balance it out for the, you

(31:19):
know, with, with a hundred speedFuji Chrome push to three 20,
you could shoot at F four at a,30th of a second with a strobe
bounced off the ceiling and youdo this and these pictures are
horrible and they suck.
And no one should have everassigned this, but you got it

and

Dan Milnor (31:32):
you're like cursing the paper and you're cursing the
person that assigned it.
And the people in the citycouncil don't want you there and
you don't want to be there.
And you, so you bang that thingout and you're like, okay, get
me out of here.
And then you get in the truckand your beeper goes off.
At the time we had beepers, nocell phones

and it's,

Dan Milnor (31:47):
and it's always nine one one.
It's always a panic emergency.
Hey, this fell through the gaps.
you have to go photograph themayor.
Yeah.
And so you go, okay.
And you go and you shoot aportrait of the mayor.
And then on the way back to thepaper, there's a brush fire that
fires up in downtown Phoenix andthere's houses on fire.
And they're like, go shoot thebrush fire.

(32:08):
So you're going from all onething to another all day long.
And it is the ultimate trainingground.
But it's frustrating because youdon't get time.
So on the side, on the days ofthe week that I was not working
or from, if I worked through 11,I was still up at whatever, six
in the morning.
I would be out shootingprojects.
And so what you were hoping forwas that the paper would

(32:29):
occasionally would throw you abone and say, look, we're going
to give you a picture packageon, you know, the community
section.
And they end up running three,four or five pictures.
And that wets your appetite for.
Hmm.
This is great.
And also I'm at the half pricebookstore in Austin, looking at
books of my idols.
I'm looking at Salgado.
I'm looking at an act away.
I'm looking at Jill Perez andI'm looking at an Alex Webb and

(32:52):
Maggie Stieber, and I'm lookingat the books and the work that
they're putting out.
And I'm like, that's who I wantto be.
these are multi year, 50 to ahundred images over a five to 10
year period on the same story.
That is intriguing to me.
It still is.

Yeah, what was, I guess, your first
assignment of this caliber?
Was it something that you hadgiven yourself that you decided
to tackle?
Did you get an idea fromsomewhere else?
Was it commissioned?

Dan Milnor (33:18):
all of the best work I have ever done, This is really
sad, but I think it's true forabout 95 percent of all the
photographers out there.
The best work I've ever done wasall self assigned because what I
learned very quickly, and I'm, Ijust, I turned 50 in January.
So I got the tail end of what Iwould consider the last sort of

(33:39):
real photo industry thatexisted.
As are, as the generationsbefore us knew.
So there was a real editorialworld.
people were paying rates.
You could get contracts, allthese things that are really out
the window these days.
but I learned very quickly thatto get a multi day assignment
was rare.
So, you know, I'd get a three orfour day assignment, editorial

(33:59):
assignment.
Those were few and far betweenmost of them were these quick
hit things that I thought thisisn't helping me at all I'm
shooting all these pictures andthese pictures are other
people's pictures.
These are not mine.

Yes,

Dan Milnor (34:12):
so in 19 1997 I'm living in Southern, California.
I'm assisting for a photographernamed Rick Rickman and Rick who
I think is actually from NewMexico Rick was really helpful
to me because he sort of took meunder his wing, taught me a lot
of things about photography, notactual image making, but taught
me about invoicing andassignments and working with

(34:33):
editors and all this stuff thatI had no experience with.
I didn't know what I was doing.
I assisted for Rick for severalyears.
and he was super helpful to meand he would get multi day
assignments.
He would do stuff for thegeographic and life and time and
people and all these things.
So he was a, working, editorialguy all the time.
And so, but I realized that theodds of me becoming him were

(34:54):
very slim.
And so I decided my wife worksfor Canon or worked for Canon
for 30 years.
And she got a call from someoneshe knew that worked at Kodak.
And they said, Hey, we'relooking for a rep in Southern
California.
And my wife said, Oh, you shouldget my husband to do it.
He'd be great.
So I did that job for a fewyears.
And to get the job, I had tosign a conflict of interest
letter that said I would nolonger do assignments because if

(35:17):
I was doing assignments and I'dbe competing with the people
that I was trying to help atKodak I said, okay, I'll sign
this.
If you sign something that saysI get all the free film
chemicals and paper I canpossibly use, which for Kodak
was nothing, of course theysigned it, they signed it, but
it was not a big deal.
And so I sold all my equipmentexcept for a Leica and a 35

(35:39):
millimeter.
I think I had two 35.
And for the next four years, theonly pictures I made were long
term projects of my ownassignment.
And I realized at the end offour years what I was on to and
that this was the best work I'dever done and the only work I
wanted to do.
So I didn't want to do magazineswork anymore.
I didn't want to do commercialphotography.

(35:59):
I just wanted to do long termprojects.
But that is very difficult to doin the U.
S.
because there's so little marketfor it and every year the market
was getting smaller and smallerand now there's virtually
Nothing.
There's virtually no outlets forthat kind of work outside of the
books.

That is a shame.
I know growing up And I talkedabout this in the beginner
photography podcast Facebookgroup before I've always said
that kind of when I first gotinto photography, my dream was
always like, to follow the band,you know what I mean?
or follow the team from from theunderdogs to like winning the,
you know, the World Series thatyear, whatever it was, or coming

(36:35):
out with the Grammy winningalbum.
And because you never really sawthose photos.
You'd see everything in betweenand you would never see the
entire book.
And that's when you would go tothese bookstores and you would
see these photo books of these,singular events.
A singular topic that took upthe entire book.
It really puts you in thatplace.
Cause suddenly you knew thestory and it didn't take any

(36:58):
words at all.
So I want to talk more about thestorytelling aspect of
photography.
As I've said many times on thepodcast, that a great photo is
so much more than just the sumof its settings.
And a lot of what makes a photogreat is the story that it
tells.
Now, Specializing in these longterm stories, how much of the

(37:19):
story is planned out like, youknow what you want to capture
versus just showing up andsimply reacting?

Dan Milnor (37:27):
Well, it entirely depends on the project, and it
depends on two primaryingredients, which are time and
access.
How much time do you have, andwhat's your access like?
Access back in the mid 90s wasvery easy.
If you had a press credential,you'd get anything you want, and
you'd show up in the middle ofnowhere in some part of the
country and whip out a presspass, and people would be like,
Hey! You want to come into ourhouse, we'll make lunch, you can

(37:47):
hang out, whatever.
Those days are, those days aregone.
Everybody's suspicious now.
So time and access are reallycritical.
But, for me, I was working atthe newspaper in Austin, at the
Daily Texan.
I was freelancing for like,anyone who would hire me.
Doing these, you know, littleassignments here and there.
And I went to Half Price Booksone day, and I'll never forget
this.
I go into the photo booksection, and there's two books.

(38:10):
There's one book called Mexico,which is by a magnum
photographer named Abbas, who Imet 15 years ago.
And his primary work at thattime was a multi, like, 15 year
project on Islam all around theworld, which is this remarkable
book, if you can get it.
But he did this little bookcalled Mexico, and Mexico was
basically all black and white,all like, uh, and it was kind of
random.

(38:31):
It was like a personal notebookfrom Mexico.
And I looked at it, and I'mlike, I like this.
And then I opened this book.
by a photographer named GillesPerez, who's a French guy who's
a magnum photographer as well.
I just froze because one, I hadnever seen pictures like this
before.
They were so different and sosophisticated compared to what I

(38:52):
was looking at.
It literally freaked me out.
I wasn't entirely sure what tomake of it.
But the book was about theIranian revolution in 79.
And Gilles had been there for along time working on this
project and this story.
And the book, the copy, thewriting in the book were telexes
between, He and that Magnumoffice in Paris, if I have to,
if I remember this correctly.

(39:14):
And what got me was that was thehonesty in the telexes, because
here's a guy that's alreadyestablished at Magnum.
He's got multiple stories underhis belt.
He's an incredible photographer.
He's a very intelligent guy.
That's way more than just aphotographer, but there's a
vulnerability in these telexesthat I did not expect to see of
the doubt that he had in hismind and the uncertainty and the

(39:35):
challenges.
And I was like, wow, I'm in thesame boat that he is like, Even
though he's way better than I amand he's way more established
and he's got these books,there's hope for me because
there are cracks in his armor.
He's admitting.
but I didn't buy that book,which is a big mistake because
that was the first editionTelexaron, which is now probably
worth like 5, 000.

(39:56):
But anyway, I was like, I can'tbuy this.
It's too intimidating for me tolook at this.
So I bought the Abbas book,which I still have, but it
haunted me that I'd never boughtthis book.
And then like, Five years ago,I'm sitting in a cafe in
Brooklyn and I had my camera onthe table in front of me, which
is an M4 Leica.
And a guy walks by and he goes,nice camera.
And I look up and it's Gilles.

(40:16):
And it turns out that the coffeeshop I was sitting at is like
half a block from his studio.
And I said, you know, Holy cow.
I go, Joe Perez.
And he sat down and then hegoes, Hey, let's go to the
studio.
And then I called the founder ofblurb who was in New York at the
time.
And I said, you're never goingto believe this.
I'm going to Jill Perez's studioand she was like, Hey, I want to
go to Jill Perez's studio.
So we went to his studio and wehad lunch with him it was

(40:37):
amazing.
And he and I wrote letters backand forth for quite a while.
And I told him, I said, Iscrewed up.
I didn't buy your book.
I should have bought your book,you know, in Austin all those
years ago.
And then something funnyhappened about six months ago.
A friend of mine moved fromCalifornia to Wisconsin, uh,
really good friend, goodphotographer, and he called me

(40:58):
and he said, we're having agoing away party.
Make sure you come to the goingaway party.
I said, okay, so we get to theparty, and he goes, where's your
truck?
I said, oh, I parked aroundthere.
He goes, back your truck up overhere.
And he opens up the back of histruck, and it's filled with
photo books.
And he said, look, I can't takethese with me.
And the first book on the stack,on top, was Telex Iran.

No way.
And

Dan Milnor (41:20):
he's like, here's the book I know you're really
gonna want.

No way.
So I,

Dan Milnor (41:24):
so I got my copy.

Wow, what an amazing story.
That must have felt really goodin that moment.
Yeah.

Dan Milnor (41:29):
Oh, man, that book is, it still freaks me out.

Yeah.
I

Dan Milnor (41:32):
mean, he gave me a stack of books that are, to me,
books are evidence, right?
You can't deny what's in thereand they are, the quality bar
that has already been set.

Yeah.

Dan Milnor (41:43):
if I'm coming to New Mexico, Northern New Mexico, and
I'm going to do a project aboutthe culture here.
Then, I have books like NormanMauskopf's The Descendants,
that, and Jimmy Santiago Bacawas the one who wrote the copy
for the book, Jack Woody at TwinPalms published it, and Norman
Mauskopf is the photographer.
That book is there.
It's my responsibility as aphotographer to know about that

(42:05):
book, and to know what's in it,and I'm either gonna add to that
conversation, or I'm not doingthe project, because it's
already been done.
And it's been done at a veryhigh level.
And that's one of the big thingsthat you'll see today with the
online photo community isthere's very little research
done.
So what sometimes I'll see, I'llhear about a project and it's
being hyped and everyone's like,Oh, it's amazing.

(42:26):
And it's great.
It's amazing.
And I look at it and I go, notonly is it not amazing.
It was already done five yearsago by so and so, and when they
did a much better job, it's thatthe new photographer was able to
learn how to market the thing,and spin it through social and
marketing numbers and traffic,and be like, well, look, I'm
getting all this buzz, butultimately, when you look at the
work, you go, this is just notthat good.

(42:48):
One of the big misconceptionsabout photography in the digital
age is that it's easy now,because of all the technology,
and that is completelyinaccurate.
It's as difficult to make a goodimage today as it always has
been, and it is.
Just as rare because To get a alifetime sort of signature image
you need the right light youneed the right timing the right
composition And it's really hardand it's rare.

(43:10):
I mean I go maybe if i'm lucky acouple of times a year I'll get
something that I think would fitif I reduced my life down to
It's the top 20 images.
It's rare that something newcomes along and knock something
out of that original 20.
It's really hard to get worklike that.
And so I think the internet andthe technology fools us into
thinking that what we're makingis really good.

(43:32):
Most of the time it's not.
And that's totally fine.
I think as a photographer, youneed to be prepared to fail the
vast majority of the time.
And for some reason, when I wasin school, again, I'm 50.
So it was a little bit differentphilosophy back then.
Yeah.
But failure wasn't viewed in thesame way.
You kind of expected that youwere going to fail most of the
time.
And when you put your work up infront of your peers, they were

(43:54):
going to tear you apart piece bypiece.
And that's typically whathappened.
And then suddenly failure wasn'tviewed the same way and you
weren't supposed to talk aboutit and you weren't supposed to
admit it and whatever.
But I think, I mean, look, ifyou're a photographer and I'm a
photographer and you put yourwork down in front of me and I
put my work down, you're goingto see things you like, and
you're going to see things youdon't like.
And you have to be able to say,look, Milner.

(44:14):
I see where you're going here,but you're not there yet.
it's not good enough.
And then I have to be able tohave thick enough skin to go,
Hey, well, thanks for beinghonest with me.
What do you think I should do?
Like what's missing?
What, how do I fill the gaps?
Whatever.
And so that's the kind ofeducation that you get when
you're learning photography in aschool.
It's not about technical stuff.
You know, UT Austin, literallythe entire amount of time that

(44:37):
we spent on technical wasprobably less than a week, you
know, And the rest, the threeand a half, four years of this
stuff was not, had nothing to dowith technique.
It had everything to do withprocess, about story, about
editing, about sequencing, aboutdesign.
Those are the important things.
The equipment, nobody cared.
I mean, you know, people had aNikon FM body with a 28 and a

(45:00):
roll of Tri X.
And they were like, here.
That was the extent of the gearconversation.
We probably spent more timetalking about printing.
Technique and photographictechnique.

Yeah.

Dan Milnor (45:12):
Cause it's, it's complicated.

okay.
so we talked about when youfirst started creating a gallery
of say 20 images of your life'swork, it's very hard to break
that, to move one of those outand replace it with a new photo
today.
Yeah.
So if we wanted to do that, ifwe want to take better photos,
just so that I'm clear, the bestway to do that is.

(45:35):
Constant critiquing, constantripping apart our own photos to
continue to grow.
Is that it?

Dan Milnor (45:42):
Well, I would say the first step is you have to
practice, you know, photographyis a, physical skill, right?
It's, hand eye coordination.
It's anticipation.
It's knowledge of your subjectmatter.
It's an understanding of lightof timing of composition, it's
like working out, it's a skill.
It's like writing your bicycle.
You ride every day for 30 daysat the end of 30 days, you're
like, wow, I feel pretty fit,but that first day you're riding

(46:03):
and you're like, Oh my God, Ithink I'm going to die.
and photography is the same.
So for example, I had not workedon a project for quite a while
and two and a half weeks ago, Iflew to Albania and I shot every
day for two weeks in Albaniatrying to produce a project.
And the first couple of days inAlbania, I was terrible.
I mean, I'm looking at thingshappening and saying, Oh, there

(46:25):
was my phone.
Oh, I should have shot that.
I just wasn't good because I'msloppy.
I'm slow.
I'm not looking, I'm notanticipating, I'm fumbling
around.
And I've been doing this for 30years.
So practicing and staying sharp.
I think that's, being aware ofwhat has already been done and
understanding where you fit inas a photographer and what the
context of you are, what yourcontext is in the grand scheme

(46:47):
of things, really important.
Let's say, for example, I wantto do a project on the border.
The border's been photographed amillion times over.
I've done multiple projects downthere myself, as have many of my
friends.
So if I go to an art buyer, anagent in New York, and I want to
show my work, and I'm showing aproject on the border, I better
know what's already been done,because if I put something in
front of this person, and I say,look at me, look how original I

(47:08):
am, and she looks at me andsays, you know, so and so, and
so and so, and so and so alreadydid the same project, it makes
me look really bad.
Even if these people havealready done the project, and I
can sit with her, and I can say,look, I know that Bill and Mary
and Tom all did this projectbefore, but this is why I did
it.
going to take the baton fromthem and I'm going to move it
one step forward because I'madding this other element or I

(47:30):
have a different angle or I gotbetter access.
And so you're adding to what'sbeen done.
And for whatever reason today, Isee there's a lot of aversion to
this idea that you have to knowwhat's been done because people
want to believe that they'reamazing and they want to believe
that very quickly that, youknow, you get out of school and
you're like, I want to befamous.
You know, I want big assignmentsand do this and that and you
kind of, that's a hard game towin.

(47:51):
there's a big difference betweenbeing hot for a year as a
photographer and having a 30year career.
it's a marathon and a sprint.
And I'd always rather be in themarathon conversation.
And to be in the marathon, youhave to do some basic field work
and some groundwork and havesome basic knowledge.
So practicing having, Beingfundamentally sound, but then
also just learning who you arewith a camera, because if you

(48:16):
can't make original photographs,there is no chance that you will
have a 30 year career, none,because there's too many people
who can do everything.
Jack of all trades, low levelcommercial photographer has a
studio.
What do you shoot?
I'll shoot anything that comesin.
I'll shoot a wedding.
I'll shoot a portrait.
I'll shoot a product.
I'll shoot this.
I'll shoot that.
There's 10, 000 of these peopleout there.

(48:36):
And what you end up doing is youget into these pricing wars
where the price goes down anddown and down because
everybody's competing for thesesmall jobs.
That's a hard run.
I'd much rather take my chances,have a part time job doing
something else, learn who I amas a photographer, be able to
make original work.
And then when clients see thatoriginal work, they say, if, if
we want that kind ofphotography, the only person who

(48:58):
can do it is that person.
That has value.
That's why people still pay forphotography is because certain
people do things that nobodyelse can do.
And there's value in that.

So you mentioned being, not being a
Jack of all trades.
And if you want to have a 30year career, you have to really
be a master at something.
You have had that 30 year careerin your own words, what are you
a master of?

Dan Milnor (49:22):
Wasting time.
That's why you're

here with me today.
Yeah, that makes sense.

Dan Milnor (49:28):
Photographically.
I don't know if there's anythingthat I would call my, it's hard
to call myself a master atanything.
I think that there are thingsthat I've learned how to do
well, and there's things thattook me a long time to figure
out, but once I figured themout, I think that they, they've
helped.
I think this is probably not agreat answer for you, but I
think what I realized a longtime ago was that it wasn't

(49:48):
enough anymore to just be aphotographer.
You need to be a more wellrounded human being, because
here's the funny thing.
There's a lot of photographersout there, a lot more than ever.
So let's say that you want acommercial assignment.
And the creative agency that'sin charge of assigning the
photographer or finding aphotographer, they're looking
around, they're looking around.
And when they meet with you,let's say you go to a portfolio

(50:09):
review and there's, they'relooking at ten photographers
that day.
And you walk up, and I walk up,and our friends walk up, and
this art buyer's looking at you,and she's looking at your
portfolio, and she's looking atmy portfolio.
She's not just looking at yourportfolio.
She's looking at you, and she'slistening to you, and she's
looking at your, how you'redressed, she's listening to your
vocabulary.

(50:30):
Does he have a sense of humor?
Does he have a massive ego?
And more importantly, are theclients going to like this
person?
Can I leave this person alone,on the set, with the client, and
they will not embarrass me?
Well, the clients like them.
if something goes wrong, willthey be able to handle it?
what's their crew like?
What's their plan B like allthese different things that in

(50:51):
photo school, they don't teachyou anything about this.
So you learn that being aphotographer is about being a
well rounded, intelligent humanbeing that is continually on the
hunt for new knowledge.
The photography will come withpractice and with sort of
perseverance, but all theperipheral things to me are more
important today than they everhave been because it's way more

(51:14):
than the pictures.
That's it.

So I wasn't going to get into this for a few
more questions, but is this oneof the reasons why you are,
according to your website, thatyou are a complete and total non
believer of social media.
Yeah.
And that these platforms havedone irreparable damage to human
communication skills andattention span.

Dan Milnor (51:35):
Jeez, did I say that?
Well, whoever wrote the copy onyour website

did.

Dan Milnor (51:40):
That sounds negative.
Uh, yeah, yeah, in essence Ibelieve exactly that, but
there's a little backgroundhere.
So, I don't like social media.
I think things like Instagram,are proving themselves to be one
of the most Detrimental,contributions to our society
that I think I've ever seen.
I always kind of joke with myfriends.
I'm not sure that as a species,we will survive Instagram, you

(52:03):
know, it's unleashing level ofconsumerism on the planet that
we simply can't sustain.
It's unleashing battle againstthe environment that we can't
sustain or can't win.
But this goes way back.
and here's the ironic part isthat I was one of the first
people That I know in the entireworld to be on Facebook.

I went

Dan Milnor (52:22):
to New York to do an assignment and it was for
someone that had something to dowith the central park committee.
So I'm talking to her in NewYork and she says Facebook.
And I'm like, what's that?
And she goes, Oh, this is newthing called Facebook.
When you get back to California,you should sign up for it.
And so I'm like, okay, I flyback to California.
I sign up on Facebook.
No one I know is on Facebook,not a single person.
It's just me.

(52:43):
And I'm on there and there'sother people on there.
And I'm like, Hey, this is kindof cool.
And same thing when Instagramhappens, I'm walking down the
street in San Francisco.
Friend of mine calls me andgoes, Hey, there's this new
thing called Instagram.
You should check it out.
I stop in the middle of thestreet.
I download the app and I start,start taking pictures and
posting on Instagram.
So I was on these things longbefore any of my friends were on
there, including all my friendswho are basically given their

(53:07):
entire life to the platform.
But 60 years ago, I was here inNew Mexico.
My birthday is January 1st.
I woke up on my birthday and Iwas like.
I don't believe in this anymore.
This is not what we wereoriginally sold of what this is.
I said, I am watching thesenetworks destroy my friends.
They are like skittish, scaredlittle creatures who can't get

(53:28):
through a conversation withoutlooking at their phone.
They're insecure.
Their work has gone downhill andthe work they're producing is
only being produced to try todrive numbers on these social
networks.
And it's garbage.
Cause it looks like everybodyelse's, it looks like content.
So I called the founder of blurband I called the marketing
director of blurb, who was myimmediate boss at the time.
And I said, I know this isprobably isn't going to go over

(53:49):
well, but I'm deleting sevennetworks right now.
And I don't ever want to go backon these networks.
And the marketing director saidat the time, she said, I hate
them too.
I think this is all, you know,go ahead.
So I thought, Oh, that's great.
And then the founder said, goahead and do it, but write about
why it is you're doing it.
And so I did, and I did a postcalled why deleted social media,

(54:10):
which is by far the highesttraffic post I've ever done.
And look at you paying attentionto

those numbers.

Dan Milnor (54:16):
Well, it's because here's something funny happened.
So two weeks goes by and I wentthrough detox.
I would literally in moments oflike calm, just pick up your
phone, just to look at the firstthing.
I just pick it up for no reason.
And I'd be in the field shootingand I'd go, Oh, I should check
like Facebook.
As I'm walking down the streetsomewhere trying to shoot, I'd
be thinking about Instagram andI thought this is bad.
So two weeks detox and thenafter two weeks I kind of came

(54:40):
through the veil and I lookedback and I thought, man, it's
not good.
So, I, wrote a post, the postdid, got all this traffic, I
don't know the specific numbers,but it was by far more than any
post I've done.
But something funny happened,it's kind of tragic, is that
people began to write me askingfor help.
They were saying, I'm physicallyaddicted, I lost my house, I

(55:02):
lost my job, I lost my family, Ican't stay off of Facebook.
I'm on Instagram 60 hours aweek, um, I'm nervous, I'm
unhappy, I'm taking depressionmedication.
So I had to write a follow uppost and saying, I'm not a
medical person.
I'm not a psychiatrist.
If you need medical help, pleaseseek a medical attention or
psychiatric help.
But that's not my role.
I, I'm just not qualified tohelp in that way.

(55:24):
That post was six years ago.
I get emails every week frompeople all over the world
saying, help me.
you know, I can't get out.
And that's the, one of thethings that's very interesting
to me is that.
I think all of us are probablytouched by someone in our family
or close to our families thathas substance abuse problem,
right?
Either alcohol, drugs, whatever.
It's pretty easy for people tosay, Yeah, that's an addiction,

(55:45):
it's too bad, get help,whatever.
Then you move down the scale andyou come to things like sex and
gambling and you go, well, I'm asex addict or, you know, I'm a
gambling addict and you get a,there's a lot less people that
want to say, yep, those arelegitimate addictions.
You know, there's a lot ofpeople that go, well, those are
just choices.
You should just stop.
Then you slide down the scaleeven further and you get to

(56:05):
technology and there are so fewpeople who want to admit.
That's something like Instagramis a physical addiction, but it
is, it is a dopamine physicaladdiction.
And I have seen it ruined.
So many of my friends who arephotographers, who's just their
entire existence is based onthat app.

(56:25):
And it's nuts.
I don't want any part of it.
I have, so I deleted all myaccounts.
And then about four years later,the marketing director at blurb
at the time said to me, it wouldreally help us if you had an
Instagram account.
And I said, never going tohappen.
I'm never going to do that.
And so about 15 minutes later,I'm sitting right next to her.
She says, I just created anaccount in your name.

(56:47):
Don't worry about it.
We will manage it.
And I said, okay.
And so two days goes by and I'mlike, I better look at what
they're putting on there.
Cause it has my name on it andnone.
It's not their fault, but theydon't know me.
they're not intimate with me asa photographer.
They don't know my philosophy.
And so the work they wereputting on the captions, the
style, the look of it, I said,no, I can't do this.

(57:07):
So I started managing theaccount and then that lasted
until.
Guess about six or eight monthsago, and I thought why am I
doing this I don't like anythingabout this I don't think it's
helping blur really inparticular.
So I quit posting and I haven'theard anything.
So

But now they're gonna go back and look
Why

Dan Milnor (57:27):
are you not posting yeah, but you know, I think
anyone who gives themselves twoweeks away from social I think
you'll be amazed because if youcan survive two weeks, cold
turkey, no access, no likesneaking peeks, no nothing.
If you do two weeks, you willlook back and you will see it in
a very different light.
I can almost guarantee that it'sgoing to make you at least take

(57:49):
pause to one, how much timeyou're putting in and two, how
fake it is, how phony the entirething is, there's a big
difference between being a goodphotographer and being someone
who knows how to buildfollowing.
Those are both.
Those are both legitimateskills.
Absolutely.
Building a following is alegitimate skill because it can
give you the freedom andindependence to operate on your

(58:10):
own.
But don't confuse the fact ofsomeone with a big following is
a good photographer.
Because very often those twothings do not overlap.
so then

let me ask you a question.
Because Canon, not too long ago,had hired a photographer to do
an ad campaign.
And then they ended up lettingthat photographer go.
Because, even though they saidthat this photographer was well
suited for this ad campaign, shedidn't have enough Instagram
followers.
So she let her go.
So, this is just horrible tohear.
it's devastating to a lot of newphotographers.

(58:40):
How has, not having a socialpresence affected you and, I
suppose, for lack of a betterterm, your ability to, to get
work?
Thank you.

Dan Milnor (58:51):
Well, a couple of things.
Number one, for Canon to dothat, it's just dumb.
That's just a dumb and it'sshort sighted and then it looks
really, the optics on that looksreally bad as well.
But that's, all the companiesare doing that and the companies
are lost, right?
Because all of this stuff cameon so fast, they were caught so
flat footed and they're playingcatch up.
And a company like Canon, Canonis a very conservative, slow

(59:13):
moving company that's a littlebit like a big cruise ship, you
know.
You turn the steering wheel,basically, what am I blanking on
the, uh, you know, the, theship.

Yeah, I know what you're talking about.

Dan Milnor (59:22):
The wheel, yeah, there we go.
You turn the wheel with theship, it doesn't just turn left,
it keeps going straight for,like, eight miles, and then it
slowly makes a turn.
That's what these companies arelike, and they're lost, because
they're, the mark, theindustry's going away.
Professional photographyindustry is disappearing.
And people are not buyingequipment like they once were.
And these people are, thecompanies are a little bit
desperate.
They're a little bit, crazed,trying to figure out what the

(59:43):
next trend is.
And so that's a hard thing forsomebody like a company like
Canon to have to overcome andSony's in the same boat, like a
Fuji or whoever it is.
They're all in the same boat.
I mean, all these people are,they're all pandering to
Instagram followers.
And the crazy part is for acompany like Canon, I shoot
Fuji, company like Fuji, they'regoing after these Instagram
stars, 99.

(01:00:04):
9 percent of all those imagesare made with.
They're not made with Fujicameras or Canon cameras.
It makes no sense whatsoever.
And instead of slowing down andactually hiring somebody who
could make original work, that'sgoing to last longer than five
minutes online.
That would be interestingbecause there's plenty of people
using Canon equipment in theworld who were doing amazing
stuff.
I was able to do a project acouple of years ago with a guy

(01:00:26):
named Ron Haviv, who's a warphotographer, documentary guy
out of New York City.
One of the founders of the sevenagency, Ron's Canon shooter,
right?
Just off the top of my head.
Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield (01:00:34):
Yeah.

Dan Milnor (01:00:35):
Let's say that I had X amount of money for budget,
and I have no idea what hissocial following is.
No idea.
I don't care, but that's a guywho's capable, if I had budget,
to say, okay, Ron, Is theresomething happening in the world
that you've always wanted to dothat you haven't been able to do
and what can we do with itthat's completely different,
that's going to make people lookand think in a different way?
That's an interesting marketingcampaign to me.

(01:00:57):
Not pandering to a socialfollowing thinking that their
following is going to be yourfollowing.
So for me, I'm in a unique spot.
So in 2010, I decided I did notwant to work as a photographer
anymore because I'd done it for25 years, almost 30 years, and I
just wanted to do something elsewith my life.
So it was a Tuesday afternoon.

(01:01:18):
I just deleted my email accountand I'm like, I'm done.
I'm out.
And my wife said, well, what areyou going to do?
And I said, I'm going to move toNew Mexico and I'm going to
change my career.
And so I was kind of lurkingaround California still.
And my phone rang and it was thefounder of blurb, a woman named
Eileen Gittens.
Eileen said, I've been onBlurb's advisory board going
back to like 2007.
And she called and said, Hey, Iheard you're not, what's up with

(01:01:40):
the photography thing?
And I said, yeah, I'm going tomove on and do something else.
And she said, why don't you workwith us?
And so what started as kind ofan informal part time thing
within six months was a fulltime job.
And it's been by far the bestjob I've ever had in my life.
It's been, it's great helpingpeople make books.
There's been a lot of travel.
I've been able to see theindustry from a direction that I

(01:02:01):
would have never been able tosee it as a photographer.
And I work with photographers,designers, artists,
illustrators, educators, allover the world.
Australia, Europe, Canada, theUS, etc.
So it's given me this greatperspective.
And the other thing it's done isit's allowed me to, when I pick
up a camera, only work on theprojects that I want to work on.
So I don't need to doassignments anymore, I don't

(01:02:23):
have to do sheets I don't wantto do.
but here's the funny part.
This sounds so counterintuitive,but it's important.
The second I said, I'm not aphotographer anymore.
I started being.
People would come to me andthey'd go, Hey, you want to work
with us and do this?
And I'm like, how did you evenfind me?
The fact that I haddisassociated myself with being

(01:02:43):
labeling myself a photographeralmost opened the door because
what I realized was moreimportant than the photography
was the fact that I was somebodywho has ideas, right?
I read every day.
I try to spend as much time aspossible thinking about things.
I'm constantly trying to educatemyself about things that I don't
know about.
I'm reading a book right nowabout the San Andreas Fault and

(01:03:04):
just ironically after the quakesof last week.
And people are like, why are youreading that book?
And I'm like, cause I don't knowanything about the fault.
Nothing.
Oh, by the way, you know, theguy Richter, from the Richter
scale.
he, um, apparently neverexperienced a heavy duty
earthquake in his entire life.
And.
After he passed away, he owned ahouse in Northridge, California
that was then in possession, Ibelieve, of his son, which was

(01:03:25):
filled with all his stuff.
And in 94, it burned down in theNorthridge Earthquake.
Talk about Talk about irony.
Yeah.
But here's the weird thing iswhen your knowledge base expands
beyond photography, you'resuddenly interesting to people
far beyond photography.
So I was able to do somethinglast year as well, a contract
for a creative contract for ayear with an organization that's

(01:03:46):
in an industry that I knownothing about.
And they came to me and said,look, you have interesting
ideas, you know, we want to hireyou for a year.
We'll give you a contract.
We'll do this and that.
And so I did that.
And I wasn't looking for that.
It's not something Iparticularly wanted to do, but I
thought, okay, this is achallenge and they did not want
a photographer.
even though I did photographsfor them, they wanted someone

(01:04:07):
who had creative ideas,

you know,

how do you get this group to talk to this group?
And if you're going to get thisgroup to talk to this group,
what are you going to make?
In the middle, is it a film?
Is it a still?
Is it a copy?
Is it a magazine?
Is it a book?
Like, how's it gonna work?
And so, I have ideas like that.

There was so much there to unpack.
what a journey.
okay, I gotta, I gotta It's amess.
No, no, no, no, no.
It's not a mess.
It's not a mess.
Just this whole time that you'retalking, I'm thinking, Oh,
that's a great point.
I wanna go off of there.
That's a great point.
I wanna go off there.
That's a great point.
I wanna go off there.
But at the same time, I stillhave a few, uh, questions that I
really wanted to touch on today.
one of them was blurb.
I know that you're a hugeproponent of, creating books,

(01:04:45):
especially, you know, not beingon Facebook, not sharing your
images on Instagram, but havingthat physical, copy there
yourself.
talk to me about, creating thatbook, talk to me about that
first time.
Well, I guess I have to rephrasethe question because you were in
the, uh, position to have yourimages printed in a newspaper.
So now that maybe people don'thave as many images printed in a

(01:05:09):
newspaper, what do you tellpeople about getting their
images printed in a book?

So a couple of things.
1993 or 94, I made my first tripto New York as a photographer,
which at the time is what youdid.
A lot of people still do that.
New York is where the people.
With who make decisions arebased.
It's where the people who havebudgets are based, et cetera.
And so I went and I showed mywork to photo agents at the

(01:05:37):
time, primarily.
And.
I realized that not a lot ofthese people, believe it or not,
had a loop or a light table tolook.
At the time, your, yourportfolio was a single page of
20 slides.
Like, you threw it down, threwit down on a light table and
they looped it and they wentthrough.
And I was like, God, there hasto be a better way to do this.
So I went, I left New York, wentback to Phoenix, went to the
newspaper, went into the designdepartment.

(01:05:58):
And I said, I think I want tomake my own book because that
would be way easier to read thanthis page of slides.
And they were like, ah, go away.
You're an idiot.
Takes too long.
You don't know what you'redoing.
Blah, blah, blah.
So three months later, I had myfirst book, which was not really
a book.
It was like glorified oversizedcolor copy that was laminated
and bound.
And I made 10, all I could, Icould only afford 10 copies.

(01:06:21):
You could do this at Kinko's nowin like five minutes, but I was
like, oh my God, this is a book.
This is great.
And so what I did is I took alist of the ten clients that I
really wanted to work for,National Geographic, German Geo,
Stern, all these magazinesaround the world, and I was
like, I'm gonna send a copy tothem.
And of course, this was snailmail and no announcement.
Just blindly mailing thesethings off.

(01:06:42):
And a funny thing happened wasthey started contacting me.
German Geo, my phone rang.
And And it was this very heavilyaccented German accent, female
voice.
And she's like, we got yourportfolio.
This is unbelievable.
How did you do this?
What is this?
You know, and they were sointrigued by what I had was able
to do.

(01:07:02):
And then the photo editor at thenational geographic at the time,
a guy named Kent Coberstein, hewrote me a hand, like full page,
handwritten letter saying, we'venever seen a portfolio like this
before.
Like, how did you do this?
And so that's what got mybookmaking on the road was all
the way back in 93.
So when blurb came along, it wassort of a natural progression of
that.
But the book is very important.
And the funny thing is you have,you know, the digital online

(01:07:24):
technology proponents.
And I think all those things aregreat.
Digital online and technologyare all fine, but there is a
different level of considerationwhen it comes to print,
especially high levels of theindustry, because print
signifies a couple of things.
And number one is it signifies.
Concerted thought specificthought about your work because

(01:07:47):
there's a big difference betweenputting your portfolio on an
iPad And putting it into a bookform because the book makes you
think Forces you to applycritical thinking to your work.
What's the best image?
What's the cover?
What's the sequence?
What's my edit?
Is this good enough to last inthis book?
Or is it not good enough thesame thing what happened back in
the day when you go in the darkroom?

(01:08:08):
I'd go shoot I'd work for a dayI'd come back process the film
and in your head you're likesort of compiling what you have
or you don't have and I wouldmix chemistry I would get in the
darkroom, I would take mynegative, get it in the
enlarger, put it in theenlarger, turn the enlarger on
and stand there and stare atthis thing and say to myself, is
it good enough?
Is it good enough for me tospend the next three hours

(01:08:28):
making one print of this imageif it's not good enough?
There were times where I satthere and I go, it's not good
enough, and I took it out of theenlarger, I poured the chemistry
back into the bottles and I leftbecause I didn't have something.
So the book is a great way toget your head around what you
actually have.
And the book is confrontationalbecause you have to put your
phone down to look at it.

(01:08:49):
So when you go into a meetingwith someone and you hand them a
book, they're not looking at thebook and looking at their phone
at the same time.
They have to take it.
They use both hands.
They flip through it.
It's tangible.
And they're so inexpensive.
And I mean, even if you, did acopy of a book and no one in the
world saw it except you, it'stotally worth it.
I do it all the time.

(01:09:10):
By the end of day tomorrow, Iwill make the first, I'll print
the first test copy of themagazine that I created from
Albania.

Wait, wait.
So, I've shared this on thepodcast before every year I make
a family yearbook, of me and mywife and we have two kids and,
before we had children, Iquickly realized I am making all
of these photos Okay, lemme stepback.
when I, uh, was growing up, Iwould go visit my grandma and we
would look through those shoeboxes of images and they were
great.
And then when they were done,yeah, they were done, we would

(01:09:39):
put them back.
And then the next year I'd goback for summer and we'd look
through them again and, aftergetting the, what, what the
iPhone four or whatever.
And then, getting into, digitalSLR photography.
I'm taking all these photos.
That's only half of theequation.
You're never looking at themagain.
You'll make them, you'll createthis image, you'll edit it,
whatever.
And then you never look at itagain.

(01:10:01):
And I thought to myself, andluckily this was right before we
had our first child, Charlie,that I didn't want that to
happen, and luckily, Lightroomhas a partnership with Blurb to
be able to create books, andthat's what I did, and every
year since then I have done so,and I can tell you that one of
my favorite memories everysingle year, as time has gone

(01:10:21):
on, is the second week ofJanuary when we get that book in
the mail, and then the familysits down, we all sit down
together, and we look throughthe book of our previous year,
And then that of course sparks,well, let's look at all the
other books as well.
And that to me brings back thejoy of photography more so than
even taking the photo.
because oftentimes you kind offorget what had happened,

(01:10:43):
especially if it's just asnapshot with a cell phone in
that moment, but getting it inprint is really, really
something special.
So I love what you're sharing.
I love blurbs message trying tomake photography tangible.
and just get it in your handsbecause that is the missing
piece of photography.

Yeah, you're doing, doing an annual book on the
family is way more difficultthan what I'm doing.
but what you're doing, theannual with the family is what a
lot of people that using blurbare trying to do.
And there's a million ways toget derailed.
you shoot a lot of photos, youdon't know how to, where to
store them.
You don't know how to, can'tcatalog them, you can't find
them, and so there's a lot ofthings to keep people from doing
this.
I think one of the things to, totoss out the window is the idea

(01:11:22):
of a perfect book.
You know, people, I've seen themjust grind themselves to a halt
because, Oh, it's gotta beperfect, gotta be perfect.
I don't know what a perfect bookis, I've probably never seen
one, and if I did see one, it'sprobably gonna be really boring.
I'm in Albania and I'm shootingand every night I'm designing.
I'm taking the work that I madethat day and I'm designing a
magazine.
So when I left Albania, I had 90pages of magazine already fairly

(01:11:44):
well thought out.
I am changing it around quite abit now, but by.
I sort of gave myself a deadlineof this Friday saying I want to
have the first test copy.
And then when I say test copy,it's a test copy.
It's not perfect.
It's not even remotely close.
There's going to be a millionthings wrong about it.
But to see it in print, is awhole different ballgame.
To me, print is the greatequalizer because again, the

(01:12:06):
online photo community and inmany ways, there's a lot of
people, very successful peoplein the online photo community
that have never printed a singlephotograph.
And I'm not talking about darkroom printing.
I'm talking about any kind ofprinting.
And so bookmaking for them it'slike climbing Mount Everest.
They go, well, I don't know howto do that.
And I saw it.
I saw it in my photo studentsgoing back 10 years ago where

(01:12:26):
people would like, I used toteach in Latin America every
year, go to Peru and teach aworkshop and people would shoot
10, 000 images.
And I'm like, I had someoneshoot 22 gigs one morning, shoot
in one morning, and then I tryto edit on an iPad.
And I said, why would you shoot22?
how could you possibly do that?
for her, it was about quantity.

(01:12:46):
she'd been listening to onlinecommunity.
People talk about, you know,well, the first 500 images of
the day don't count, becausethey're never going to count.
I'm like, who told you this?
This is absolute insanity.
So I was there, I was in Albaniafor two weeks.
I shot about a thousand picturestotal.

And this was all on film?
Yeah.

No, this was all digital.
yep.
And, I edited a hundred andninety three.
That was the first sort of onestar big chunk.
And then that went down.
To about 50 pictures.
And then within the 50, there'sabout 20, that would be pictures
that are, would, will sort of bethe nucleus of what the project
is, but that's in that, I don'tthink any of those we're going

(01:13:26):
to knock anything in my sort oftop 20 lifetime work out of the
way that's the trip reallywasn't about that, but, yeah,
it's fun.

Yeah, it's

a jigsaw puzzle.

I would imagine.
feel like I could sit here andtalk to you for another, two
hours or so.
But, really do want to beconscious of your time.
You have shared so much with me.
Daniel, my next question is, howcan people find you online?
Obviously, you're not going to,say, Facebook or Instagram.
So, would you like people tofind out more about you?

The easiest way to find me online is a website
called Shifter, S H I F T E R,and it's dot media not dot com.
So shifter.
media that has like the audiointerviews that I do.
It has, there's one tab ofphotography, which rarely ever
changes because I'm lazy.
It has a creative tab that talksabout books, other people's

(01:14:14):
photography, other people'sbooks.
I have an adventure tab thattalks about cycling, hiking,
fishing, climbing, et cetera,which I do a lot of.
And there's a tab about yoga,which I'm a big fan of.
And it also tab about Lymedisease, which I got six years
ago.
And there's a global communityof people that are all suffering
from the same thing.
There's a lot of stuff on there,probably more than anyone wants
to see.
but there is some goodphotography stuff from time to

(01:14:37):
time.

I love it.
I'm going to go check that outright away as well.
I will put the link to that inthe show notes.
So if anybody's interested,just, Whatever podcast app
you're listening on, just swipeup and you'll be able to see
some of Dan's images as well aslinks there.
But, Dan, again, thank you somuch for coming on and sharing
just a piece of the knowledgethat you have accumulated over
the past 30 years of being aphotographer.

(01:14:59):
I've really enjoyed my time withyou today.
So again, thank you so much forcoming on.

Absolutely.
Thanks for having me.
And I hope that somebody,actually gets something from my
weird views.

if anybody did, it was me as well, but I
know, I know that plenty otherswill, too.
So again, thank you so much.

Yep.
Absolutely.
Thank you.

All right.
Big thanks again to Dan Milnerfor coming on the podcast.
Today's action item that if youimplement just one thing that
will move the needle forward inyour photography, it's this
print your work to critique it.
You can either take a recentshoot that you did or you can go
out and shoot something fresh.
When you get back home, uploadall of those photos to get

(01:15:38):
printed.
In the us, you can use somethinglike CVS or Walmart or Costco,
you know, to print up just fourby sixes.
I think printing up 104 by sixesshould cost about 10 bucks.
Yeah, they're not archivalprints, they're just something
to help you change the way thatyou interact with your images.
So there's no need to edit themor do anything to them.
Once you get all those printsback, lay them out in front of

(01:15:59):
you on a table.
The act of physically cuingthrough your photos makes the
process so much more immersiveand gives you a different, and I
would say better understandingof what elements stand out to
you in a photograph to make thema keeper.
Now that info, once you gothrough all these photos and
you're like, oh, this stands outand that stands out, that's why
I'm picking this photo.

(01:16:20):
You can now use that informationgoing forward as you pay
attention to those specificdetails while you're shooting.
In turn, you're gonna get ahigher hit rate on the images
that you capture.
And who doesn't want that?
This is about turning a quickdigital process into something
slower, something moreintentional, something more
tangible, and that will changeyour mindset on how you view and

(01:16:43):
capture images.
Now remember, don't forget tojoin us in the free and amazing
beginner photography podcastcommunity because we would love
to see there.
To join, just head over tobeginner photo pod.com/group
now.
That's it for today.
Until next week, remember, themore that you shoot today, the
better of a photographer you'llbe tomorrow.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

24/7 News: The Latest

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Crafting Impactful Narratives Through Long-Term Projects with Dan Milnor

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}24/7 News: The Latest

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

All Episodes

Crafting Impactful Narratives Through Long-Term Projects with Dan Milnor

24/7 News: The Latest