Embracing Precision and Collaboration in Dance Photography with Emily Brunner

Episode Transcript
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Emily Bruner (00:00):
Until our last day, we're always learning.

(00:02):
If you were like me, and youdidn't learn about dance earlier
in your life, you can learn now.
I took a dance class.
I asked dancers around me.
I would show them photos, and Iwould say, what's good about
this photo?
What's bad about it?
I'll go to workshops.
Watch YouTube videos of danceclasses where you see the
instructor teaching the class.
Observe any dance classes thatyou have the opportunity to

(00:24):
observe because when you'reobserving a class, you hear the
teacher correcting the students.
There's a lot of fun ways tolearn about it.

Raymond Hatfield (00:33):
Hey, welcome to the Beginner Photography
Podcast.
I'm your host, Raymond Hatfield,and each week I interview one of
the world's most interestingphotographers to learn what it
really takes to capturebeautiful images so that you can
start to do the same.
In today's rewind episode, weare chatting with dance
photographer Emily Bruner, abouthow to create extremely
technical, yet artistic imagesat the exact same time.

(00:56):
But first, the BeginnerPhotography Podcast is brought
to you by Cloud Spot.
Clouds spott has everything youneed to build a thriving
photography business.
You can impress your clients,deliver a professional
experience, and streamline yourworkflow all in one platform.
So grab your free foreveraccount today
over@deliverphotos.com and onlyupgrade when you and your
business are ready.

(01:17):
So one thing that I've turnedinto since my daughter has been
getting more and more intosports is becoming that parent
with a camera.
Because of that, I've had a fewother teams approach me and ask
me to take photos of theirteams.
Effectively transitioning fromjust parent with a camera to
skilled known sportsphotographer.
It is weird because it'sunintentional, but as you'll

(01:39):
hear from today's guest, EmilyBruner, my story is not
exclusive to just my daughter'ssports, but dance too.
And in many ways I think thatdance would be so much more
difficult because in dance it'scapturing both extremely
technical but also beautifullyartistic elements.
So in today's episode with EmilyBruner, you're gonna learn how

(02:00):
to decide what to invest yourmoney in when you know it's not
just a business yet, but it'sstill a hobby.
How to balance composition andtiming together.
Because there could be anincredibly technical move that
you want to capture, but how canyou use your composition to show
it off with beauty?
You're gonna learn how you haveto adopt the mindset of
collaboration as it takesworking with dancers to ensure

(02:22):
that your photos accuratelyreflect their skills and the art
form.
And remember, if you wanna growyour skills as a photographer
too, you cannot just listenpassively.
The education and insight canonly take you so far.
It's not until you actually getout there and start taking
action on what you learn, thatyou will actually move the

(02:42):
needle forward.
So please don't zone out andwaste your time.
Take notes and make a plan.
That's how you get better today.
With that, let's go ahead andget on into today's interview.
Emily Brunner is a performancedance photographer from
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, whosays that she loves dance
photography because of the waythat it allows us to see the
movement, the lines, and thepower of dance in a way that we

(03:06):
can't with our own eyes.
Emily, thank you so much forcoming on the podcast.

Thank you so much for having me, Raymond.

I am super excited to talk to you today for
a few reasons.
One of them being is that overthe past few months we have
become closer within a group ofphotographers where we kind of
talk about our goals and gettingthere.
and I've seen you already justin the past few months grow your
business and it's something thatI had never imagined no ideas
about before getting intophotography.

(03:34):
I haven't interviewed somebodywho does dance photography.
and just out of happenstance,somebody was asking me about
dance photography the other dayin the beginner photography
podcast, Facebook group.
So there is a need for peoplelike you in the world.
So again, I'm really excited totalk to you about you and your
journey.
But before we get there.
Can you share with me and thelisteners how you got your start

(03:55):
in photography in the firstplace?

So my start in photography really came about,
from becoming a parent.
I wanted photos of my kids toshare with my family who lived
far away.
And, I just immediately lovedhow capturing my life allowed me
to see it in a different way andallowed me to share, share what
was going on in my life.
I remember being a kid andenjoying photography with my

(04:18):
parents cameras.
So maybe I could say I've alwaysbeen a photographer, but I got
really, really into it when Ihad kids.
So maybe about 14 years ago, andI just wanted to learn
everything I could about it

Obviously you wanted to capture stuff to send
to your family but why weren'tjust the photos on say an iphone
good enough for you?
Oh,

I wanted them to be beautiful.
Um, I would see other photosthat I would love and I thought
I want my photos to look likethat So I guess from the
beginning I could tell thedifference between a snapshot
and a photo taken with intentionAnd I knew that I wanted my
photos to to have that intentionbehind them.
And I also knew that if I wastaking photos, I just, I wanted

(04:59):
to learn about it.
I wanted it to become somethingthat I could enjoy and improve
upon so that it could besomething that's fulfilling for
myself rather than just asnapshot that I didn't think
twice about.

Right, of course, of course.
So when that time came to getyour first camera, did you
already have an idea that youwanted a specific DSLR to get
into?
Or was it just, let's go down toCostco and buy the first camera
that we see?

No, I mean, my husband bought my first DSLR for
me as a Christmas gift.
before that, I had a little,Canon PowerShot digital cameras.
Before that, I had film camerathat, had interchangeable lenses
that my parents had bought forme.
But, my first, real camera inthe digital age was, My husband
picked out for me and it was acanon and I still shoot with

(05:46):
cannons today.

Yeah so Getting that camera when you
first got it out of the box.
I want to know if you had tojudge yourself on a scale from
Zero to ten, zero being you hadno knowledge of photography
whatsoever.
This was your first time everseeing a camera.
And ten being world class.
Where would you say that yourskill level was?

I would say my skill level was maybe around a
three or a four.

Because

I had taken photos, you know, I used my
parents film cameras when I wasa kid.
I never, shot in manual.
I remember trying once to shootin manual when I was at Niagara
Falls.
Because I knew that I wanted toget this.
You know the blurred water.

Yeah,

I didn't have a clue how to do it.
This is with the film cameraWhen I was in college and when I
got the photos back, they wereterrible I mean it's blurry and
they were like blue and purpleand So that was my only time
that I ever really tried toshoot in manual before like
there was no internet thenreally so I had no knowledge

(06:45):
whatsoever Nowhere to researchhow to do it So I would say that
when I got that first DSLR outof the box, I knew just a tiny,
tiny bit.
but really very little.
Most of what I knew was morealong the lines of composition
rather than technical knowledgeof how to use the camera.

So how did you go about learning photography
and, I'm assuming that you areshooting in manual now, is that
correct?

I do, yeah.
Pretty much, I usually shoot inmanual unless the lighting
situation around me is changingsuper rapidly and I can't keep
up with changing my settings.

You're right, of course.
So, how did you go aboutlearning manual once you got
this new, digital camera fromyour husband?

So when I got the new digital camera from my
husband, I actually shot with itfor several years just with the
kit lens, not really anautomatic.
so really focusing on thecomposition, capturing the
moment, my perspective, Anythingthat I could do within my own
mind and control with my ownhands.
That's kind of what I wasfocusing on but then I wanted to

(07:45):
I wanted to do more and Iresearched and I realized I
needed a better lens So that waslike my first step into Really
getting super serious intophotography.
I got a new lens.

What lens was that?

it was a sigma 30 millimeter one point f 1.
4.
So okay Kind of

went all the way

I did.
Yeah, and I loved it.
You It really transformed myphotos in a big way.

Yeah, coming from the kit lens, I would
imagine that it would just be acompletely different experience.

Yeah, I loved it.
It was a great purchase.
And even though I rarely use itnow, because it's for, the crop
sensor camera, and now I shootwith a full frame camera, I
don't want to sell the lensbecause It's kind of like
meaningful to me But yeah, sothat was My first like real
serious like dive into it andthen I again I knew that I
wanted to learn Learn more whenI got that first great lens and

(08:35):
I saw the difference I realizedgosh if I really learned how to
use my camera I bet I could doeven more and it was at that
point that I purchased an onlinecourse To dive in and just learn
as much as I could about mycamera

So you didn't even go like the book route or
YouTube tutorials.
It was just, I'm going to jumphead first into an online
course.

Yeah, yeah, I did it just it fits my personality.
I don't tend to read much andthere's too much of a rabbit
hole with youtube videos becauseYou just I don't know.
I needed somebody to like guideme really specifically keep me
on track Yeah,

this is exactly what you need to do.
That makes sense.
That makes sense I too loveonline courses for just for that
exact reason They're so hyperfocused and you don't have to go
hunting around for literally YouThere's like 24 hours of videos
uploaded to YouTube every minuteor something so trying to find
the right ones is insane andtakes a long time so.

Yes.

can you share what course it was that you
signed up for and how did youlike it?

Yeah, so I signed up for Schultz Photo School's,
Photo Fix class, and I reallyloved it.
just completely loved it.
it was everything I wanted it tobe.
it told me, it was teaching meall the things that I kind of,
like, knew I wanted to learn,and it did it in a really
focused way.
It was a great experience doingthat.

Mm hmm.
So at the time, you were stillfocused on just photographing
your children.

Yes.

Mm hmm.
So I want you to tell me alittle bit about the dance
photography side.
At what point did this comealong in your life?

well, my oldest daughter, who's 14 now, she
started dancing ballet when shewas four.
and so for those first fewyears, I was just taking, Kind
of like snapshots of her.
but she really got into it.
quickly it became obvious thatshe loved it.
And she started performing moreand more.
And I wanted beautiful photos ofher performing on stage.

(10:25):
And I didn't, if I could havehired someone to do it, I would
have, to be honest.
But there, I just didn't, therewas nobody I could hire to take
the photos that I wanted of her.
So I said, you know what?
I'm gonna learn how to do it andI'm gonna do it.

okay, so because that's a big jump from
I'm going to photograph my kidsto now going into a very,
specialized area of photography,did you go, you photographed
your daughter, these photos werebeautiful, did other people see
them?
what gave you the spark topursue it?
even further.

Yeah, it was really just sharing my photos.
and it was a gradualprogression.
It wasn't like snap overnight.
My photos of her performing onstage are beautiful.
I had to do a lot of trial anderror and learn that way.
She dances so much.
I had a lot of opportunities topractice.
And figure out what I needed todo but once once I got some
photos that I was proud of Ishared them on facebook The

(11:14):
photos of my daughter I sharedthem on facebook and then the
photos that I took of otherdancers in the performances if I
knew the parents I would givethem the photos and then the
school I gave them the photosthat I took as well.
And really me giving thosephotos to the school was what?
prompted Dance photography tobecome a business for me

So, did they ask for it?

They asked me, yep.
They said, oh, these arewonderful.
These are great.
We didn't know you were aphotographer.
Would you be willing tophotograph our upcoming recital
and sell those photos to theparents?

Ah, I love it.
I love it.
this just kind of fell in yourlap.
I mean, obviously, with lots ofpractice and passion for it, it
fell into your lap.
so let's talk a little bitabout, a little bit more about,
the dance photography itself,because there's really two
different types of dancephotography.
there's the performance, andthen there's portraits.
So if dance photography is morethan just photographing people

(12:08):
dancing, can you explain moreabout what else there is, to
this?

Well, with dance photography in particular, it's
really a collaboration betweenthe photographer and the dancer.
Even if the dancer is in aperformance and doesn't quite
realize they're beingphotographed, it's still kind of
a collaboration.
That's their art.
The photography is our art.
And in the same way that we asphotographers would kind of be
horrified, like imagine, yourworst image or a photo you take

(12:35):
that's blurry, dark, the whitebalance is yucky.
imagine if that photo wasshared.
All over the internet by yourfriends and family, you would be
embarrassed.
So in that same regard, whenwe're taking a photograph of a
dancer, they want to look theirbest.
They want their technique tolook as good as it possibly can.
So as photographers, we need tobe very, very careful that the

(12:58):
photos that we're, sharing ofthem that we're giving to them
or selling to them or sharingwith our friends and family in
that, in those pictures, thedancer's technique.
is good, that their toes arepointed, that their feet are
nice and straight, that theirlegs are straight, that their
shoulders aren't all tensed up,that they have a nice expression
on their face.
All these things, all thesethings that they've worked so

(13:20):
hard for and they've trainedfor, we need to make sure that
our photos are showing that,showing the dancers to the best
of their abilities.

So that, that's more of the performance
side.
what about the portrait side?
Because, first of all, is doingthe portrait something that
still requires a stage?
or does it require a studio?
Where do these portraitstypically happen?

Yeah, I mean a dance portrait where you where
it's more like you, you knowJust you and the dancer and
you're taking the time for themto pose and you're working on
their pose and trying to take abeautiful photo you're creating
the photo that can happenanywhere in my experience We
never do that on the stage torent out a stage or find a stage
that's available to us to dothat It's just not really

(14:03):
feasible, right?
So in my experience doing danceportraits, we would be doing
that either, outside.
So it's somewhat similar to justany other portrait, finding a
place that has nice light and, anice backdrop.
And then for a dancer inparticular, it also needs to
have a nice and safe.
Ground for them to work on andstand on and dance on So outside

(14:26):
is an option on streets in parksreally just anything that you
would do with a normal regularjust portrait session Or you can
do it in a studio and by studioI don't literally mean you need
to have a photography studio,but find a room that's big
enough You need a pretty bigspace to photograph a dancer
Find a room that's big enoughand either bring in your own

(14:47):
backdrop You Or use the walls inthe room.
And, when you're photographing adancer inside, you're really
gonna need to bring in somelight.
You're gonna need to start usingstrobes to get enough light to
photograph them.
Because there's so much lesslight inside.

Right, right.
I want to talk a little bit moreabout the posing side though,
because this is something that Ifeel like so many beginners
already have a hard time withenough for just regular people.
Right now we have to deal withsomebody who, is used to doing,
something in an exact way.
are you manipulating that atall?
can you kind of walk me throughthat whole process there, how
you get somebody in the pose?

Yeah, so, we are manipulating it, in a way.
with dance photography, we'retaking something that's, four
dimensional.
there's time, and then there,there's the three dimensions of
space.
So we're taking that, and we'recompressing it into two
dimensions.
So, Taking time out of it is onething, but then taking the three
dimension, dimensional pose andtransforming it into two
dimensions makes it a little bittricky.

(15:46):
So when I, when we're posingsomeone, a dancer, start with a
dancer and ask them like, whatare your ideas?
What sort of poses do you wantto do?
There's, all dancers havedifferent abilities.
So we want to make sure thatwhatever we're trying to
photograph For them that it'ssomething that they're good at
something that they feel strongand safe doing so we never want
to push them into Doingsomething that we think is

(16:07):
amazing, but might be beyondtheir comfort ability, right?
Yeah, so we I always start withthem and ask for some
inspiration ideas they alwayshave ideas They always know what
they want to do.
So we start with that and then Ihave them do the movement, or do
the pose for me, a few times,and I look at it, and I'm
looking at it, trying to decide.

(16:29):
what the best angle is going tobe for the camera.
So if they're doing an air besk,that's where their leg like goes
back in the air behind them.
Okay.
Straight.
Their leg is straight.
If we do that.
So their leg is pointing behindthem, like away from the camera.
I'm not going to see.

(16:51):
So, we're photographing anarabesque, we want to see that
leg, we want that leg to looknice and long, so we want that
leg, parallel to the camera.
those are the kind of thingsthat we're thinking about at the
beginning of a pose.
And then once we have thempositioned, we might turn them
ever so slightly to get theirleg to look as good as it can
possibly look, then we startshooting.
and we might tweak it a littlebit as we go.

(17:13):
when I'm shooting them, I wantto have a nice low camera angle
that makes them look tall, makestheir legs look nice and long.
So in that regard, it's a lotdifferent from a portrait of a
person, more photographingpeople.
We often want their eyes to looknice and big.
So we want to be slightly aboveeye level, but with dancers, we
want to get lower so that we'renot distorting their body in an

(17:35):
unflattering way.
We want their legs to look niceand long.

Yeah, man.
That's really interesting.
I never, never really thoughtabout it like that.
so obviously before I interview,I was looking at your website, I
was looking at your portfolioand I was looking at your images
and there's kind of this verycomfortable feeling as if, all
the dancers were on stage.
And even like for yourportraits, that's kind of like
why I thought that the camerawas so low because we, as an

(18:00):
audience would be sitting lower,but that makes so much more
sense that it just looks betteron camera to accentuate those
legs.
Tricks of the trade there.
Yeah.
I love it, I love it.
are the poses that you areasking these dancers to get
into, are they just, holdinglike a, I was gonna say a pose,
but like a, dance move thatthey're used to?

(18:21):
or are you trying to get them todo more?
did that question make sense?

Yes, I think that makes sense.
So, with classical dance, withballet, there's really like a
lot of, sort of, standard poseswe would do.
With modern contemporary dance,there's going to be a lot more
improvisation going on.
But in a photo session with adancer, we're typically working
with, some sort of, Posesomething that's kind of

(18:46):
established in it that is oftenin pieces that are going to be
choreographed for the dancers Sothese are things we're not
usually starting with somethingthat's never been done before
We're starting with somethingthat already exists and people
are familiar with And we mighttweak it a little bit, we might
rotate the body a little bit ordo something different with the

(19:07):
arms or the direction in whichthey're looking with their head
to Change it up a little bit butthere's standards with dance
just like there are with musicperformance, you know with
playing an instrument orphotography There's there are
standards that we that we needto stick to Yeah, and when the
dancers are posing i'm notreally asking them to hold a
pose because dance, is movement.

(19:28):
And if they're stationary andtrying to hold a pose for a
photo, it's going to not lookright.
It's going to look kind oftense.
So I think of the poses that wedo as movements.
And I ask my dancers, I say, youdon't need to hold that for me.
I need you, to get into it andthen go out of it the same way
that you would in a performanceor in a class.

(19:48):
And then I'm timing the tocapture it at the apex of the
movement that they're doing.

Wow.
How many times do you think youhave to have them redo a move
before you nail the shot?

sometimes we get it on the first shot.
Sometimes we get it after just,two or three.
Other times we work it for 20minutes.
Wow.
It really just depends on whatwe're trying to do and the
dancer and how quick my reflexesare that day.

okay, that was a good amount about posing
there.
I think that I was looking atdance photography kind of all
wrong.
You Possibly because I am justso uneducated in the field
completely that to me it looksso much more difficult right in
terms of the posing where I saidthat a lot of beginners have a
hard time enough posing Regularpeople now we have to pose

(20:36):
dancers But if these dancersalready have some sort of base
where of moves that they alreadyget into would you say that is
helpful to use the photographerYou

Very, very helpful.
Yeah.
And especially for me, I am nota dancer.
And I was not a dancer.
So everything that I've learnedabout dance, I've learned over
the last 14 years from watchingmy daughter, taking a dance
class myself, which was veryhumbling, but I wanted to learn
more about it.
with older more experienceddancers, Like knowing how to
pose them is not quite asdifficult as it seems but

(21:09):
knowing how to recognize in yourphoto That they're doing the
pose Or that maybe they're doingit correctly, but that your
camera angle is flattering.
And that we have them turned insuch a way that it's showing
them, showing their lines,literal lines of their legs and
their feet and their arms, thatit's flattering.
Making all of those look asbeautiful as possible.

(21:31):
That's the tricky part.
And now younger, youngerdancers, you know, kids who are
maybe like 8, 9, 10 years old.
that's going to be a lot,harder, honestly, to photograph.
Because, we're, asphotographers, going to need to
give them a lot more guidance.

Oh, I see.
So that's where being moreeducated in dance, in the
movement, would really help.
So we're talking a lot aboutlines, and the importance of,
kind of showing that power, andstability, I guess.
So how important of a role doesfocal lengths play in capturing
these images?
Because, a wide angle lens isreally going to distort, lines.

(22:06):
So can you talk a little bitabout that?

Yes.
Yeah.
I prefer to use the longestfocal length that I can.
Somewhere in the range of 70 to200, I really, if at all
possible, I don't want to shootany wider than 70 millimeters,
and this is on my full framecamera, because you're right.
Wider angles are going tocompletely distort.
Their shape and for a dancerwhere their body shape and

(22:29):
movement is their art if wedistort that really not
flattering to them and it's nota very honest way to show what
they're doing doesn't reallyshow what they're doing very
well.
So when i'm inside I usually amusing 70 millimeters because the
spaces that I have access toinside are just not Big enough

(22:49):
to allow me to go all the way to200 millimeters If I'm shooting
a performance, however, wherewe're in a big auditorium, I am
often shooting at 200millimeters.

Just because you have that extra space.
Yes.
Yeah.
Sure.
So I'd imagine, obviously, beingthat far back, needing that
telephoto lens.
do you have any recommendationsfor anybody just getting into,
photography who wants to startdance who maybe the 70 to 200.
Two eight is a little bit of astretch.
Do you have any recommendationsfor what else they could use?

So if we're talking about photography, of
performances, so in inside thetheater you really are going to
need the wide open aperture oflike a 70 to 200 lens or 24 to
70 lens to have enough light tocapture the movement But with
dance, there's also a lot ofmoments where people are not

(23:40):
moving, where they are taking asecond in between poses to not
even transition, but at the endof a pose or at the beginning of
a movement, at the beginning ofa piece that they're starting at
the end of a piece, there aretimes where people are not
moving or they're not movingvery fast.
So even if you don't have asuper fancy lens, You could use
your kit lens, you know, andzoom in all the way to 55

(24:02):
millimeters.
Or if you have a kit lens that,goes all the way to 300
millimeters, You could use that.
you're just going to need tocompensate for the more stop
down, close down aperture and,increase your ISO to make up for
that.
If you're using a hit lens yourshutter speed is going to be a
little slower.
it's going to be slow enoughthat if a dancer jumps across

(24:23):
the stage, then they'll,there'll be a little blur.
A lot

of blur, sure.
So would you say to, prioritizea faster aperture, say over,
Longer reach of the focallength.

That's a good question.
It depends on what you're doingIf you have a a dancer if one of
your kids is dancing and they'redoing a lot of performances In
their performing inside.
I would say maybe prioritizingaperture might be a good thing
50 millimeters will be okay.
if you have like a 24 millimeterlens or even 35 You might end up
with a little distortion But youcan scoot further back if you're

(24:55):
not right on top of them takinga picture with the wide angle
lens If you're a little furtherback, they're not in there in
the center of the photo They'renot going to be as distorted as
if you're you know, right theretaking a picture of them photos
of your dancer outside Before orafter her recital or his recital
for example you don't reallyneed the fast lens quite as much

(25:16):
because if you're outside youhave lots of light You don't
necessarily need that big wideopen aperture So in that case
for a portrait outside of yourdancer to celebrate their
recital I would say prioritizethe longer focal length use a
longer focal length and getyourself down low Don't take the
picture from up above kind oflooking down at them.
So their heads big and theirlegs are tiny,

right?
That's funny.
Yeah, exactly.
obviously, you wouldn't be ableto do that in a performance
setting.
but during a performancesetting, are you running around
from side to side during theactual performance, like while
parents in the audience tocapture these photos?
No,

no one should ever do that.
I go to dress rehearsals.
That's my secret.
if a dance school asks me to doa job for them and to photograph
the performance, I stronglysuggest that I go to their dress
rehearsal rather than theperformance.
Because at the dress rehearsal,I can move around.
I can try some photos where I'mclose to the stage.
I can try some where I'm farback and capturing the whole

(26:14):
stage in the lens.
I'm not in favor ofphotographing during
performances, both as aphotographer, because that's
just No fun.
Um, and as a audience member,that's distracting.
If you're a parent trying totake photos during the
performance, you're missing theperformance taking photos And
then for the dancers on stage itcan be distracting It can be

(26:35):
very distracting if they seesomebody moving around or
walking around they might thinksomebody's leaving their
performance One big thing aboutperformance photography if you
are taking a photo during theperformance You And even if
you're taking the photos duringa dress rehearsal, turn your
flash off.
Don't, no flash, no

flash.
That's why you gotta get thatfaster lens.

Yeah.

it's funny cause, once we had, Charlie, and
we started going to these, likelittle school performances that
they put on.
They're not dances or anything,but just, like little
kindergarten songs that theysing for all the parents.
And.
you watch all the parents notwatch their kids, they just
watch their kids through theirphones.
You know what I mean?
And wow I like to you know Pullout the phone to take one photo

(27:19):
just to kind of remember themoment and use it as my one
second a day I can imagine thatin a dance setting, that you
would really want these photosof your child being in a
situation, doing something that,that not only are they spending
a lot of time working on, butalso you don't get time to go
see it very often unless It's aperformance, so having a

(27:40):
photographer run around duringthe performance would just be
very distracting.
Would be very distracting, soI'm glad that you did.
It's

going to turn people angry.
I would

assume so.
And,

and, if you're sitting in a seat trying to take
photos from your seat, they'renot going to be that great.
there's going to be like headsin front of you.
You're probably like not at theangle of the perspective that
you want.
So just go to the dressrehearsal and ask Ask permission
ask the school.
Hey, can I go to the dressrehearsal and take some photos
then?
if the school has an open dressrehearsal where they allow

(28:11):
parents to come in They would somuch rather you take photos then
than during the performance.
And a lot of performances willsay at the beginning, please put
away all recording devices.
yeah, whether it's photos.
Or videos.
Uh, so yeah, dress rehearsals.
That's the perfect time to takeyour photos.

Yeah.
More weddings need signs thatsay, please put away your
devices.
I shared a photo in the BeginnerPhotography Podcast Facebook
group of a guest at a weddingthat I was just at, who I
couldn't believe it.
just got, Right in front of theaisle as like the bride was
coming down and you missed theshot It's like what do you do?
you always got to prepare forthese things and get out of the

(28:50):
way But I mean it was just soblatantly right in the middle of
everything and it was just likethe brightest yellow Neon dress
that you've ever seen in yourlife.
It was atrocious, but, totallywent off on a tangent there, so
I apologize.
I want to go back, to your firstclient.
I want to know when you decidedto start charging for this, when

(29:11):
you decided, oh, maybe I coulddo this, how did they find you?
were you nervous?
How did the session turn out?

So my first dance portrait client, and it's kind
of hard to say who the veryfirst dance portrait client was,
but in my, in where my businessis now, I'm not going to count
sort of like a couple thingsthat I did.
So my very first real, truedance portrait client, they
found me through Google.

(29:40):
They had done a Google searchfor dance photographers.
And at that time, I did have mydance photos on my website.
none of them were portraits.
None of them had been takeninside.
They were all, stagephotography, performance
photography up until that point.

Were these your daughter and her dance
mates?

the performance photography that I had on my
website at that time was from mydaughter's school.
So it, yes, it was.
and then there was a coupleother, a couple of other things
on there as well, from otherkinds of dance that I took some
photos of.
So this, this client found mefrom Google and they called me
and wanted to know if I would dosome dance portraits and they
wanted photos.
in the studio, with a nice, justplain backdrop and studio

(30:21):
lights.
I was not prepared for that.
I didn't have the gear that Ineeded for it.
And I hadn't done it before, andso I actually, I had a phone
conversation with them.
I always have a phoneconversation with anyone who
calls me for work.
And, you know, I explained that,we could do a photo session
outside, but that I wasn't,really prepared to do one

(30:42):
inside.
And I referred her to somebodyelse.
I said, you know, I think ifthat's what you want, you should
call this photographer.
And, they went and looked atthat other photographer and
actually then called me back andsaid, no, you know, we want you
to do it.
Wow.
So I said, okay, well, let's doit.
And I bought a backdrop and Ibought the lights that I needed

(31:03):
and I did some practicing just,at home.
I didn't have a space to use, soI asked her if we could use her
dance school's space, which theysaid, yeah, sure, you can come
in and use our space.
so that's what we did.
It was with that being my firstsort of studio dance portrait
session, it was really nice thatwe had her dance teacher there

(31:23):
with us at the session.

I bet.

of her dance teachers, they were able to
really Guide her through themovements and the posing in a
way that left me completely freeto work on the lighting and the
camera angles and the

photography.

Yes, so we did the photos.
it was a wonderful experience.
I had so much fun My dancer wasso amazing.
her mother was nice.
The dance teachers were nice.
Everybody was so nice It was somuch fun And then I got home and
worked on the photos that we hadselected as her, the ones that
she wanted to purchase.
And I had a blast editing them.

(32:00):
They turned out reallybeautiful.
and some of those are still onmy website now.
Some of them are my favoritephotos, even though it was my
first time, shooting withstrobes for a dance scene.

Oh, wow.
Wow.
So much going on all at once.
was there anything that youpicked up by watching the dance
teachers and seeing how theyworked with the students?

Yes.
I really picked up on, just howimportant the best possible
technique in the photo is seeingthem really, really be very,
very picky.
about where her foot was, howhigh her leg was, where, how
much she was turned out with herleg, where her torso was facing.

(32:42):
Just seeing them, work herthrough those poses, gave me
some language to use with myfuture dancers and allowed me to
see what the subtle differencewas in having, the foot like
this versus like this.

Right.
Yeah.
I bet that would be invaluablefor sure.
So, the portrait side, I feellike, is pretty standard after
that.
you get contacted, you do theshoot, you edit the photos, and
then you deliver the product.
is there anything else involvedthat is maybe, unlike Most other
forms of photography.

I think one thing to keep in mind is the safety
aspect.
especially if the dancers arejumping Or especially if they
have had some kind of recentInjury and dancers do just like
athletes.
they do sustain injuries fromtime to time So we have to be
really careful that we are beingas safe as possible That the

(33:35):
surface on which they are posingand moving is not slippery You
So when I'm photographingdancers on the backdrop that I
use, which is seamless paper, Ihave a spray can of rosin that
we spray, if they're in pointeshoes, we spray the rosin on the
bottoms of their pointe shoes sothat when they're on pointe,
standing on the paper backdrop,they're not slipping at all.

is rosin just like a form of glue, kind of?

Yeah, it's sticky.
I think it comes from a tree sapand violinists use it on their
boat on their bows So that thehair on the bow is kind of just
sticky enough to grab thestrings on the violin Dancers
use it, you know on their feetTo keep them from slipping.
So the, what I use in the photosession is it's a spray.
it's really nice and easy andnot messy.
We want to make sure that wedon't allow the dancers to do

(34:23):
something beyond their abilitylevel and that we are not asking
them to do something that'sdangerous for them.

of course.
Okay.
that was a great tip.
I never would have thought aboutthat.
I would have thought, well, aslong as there's not water on the
floor, we're good.
So I'm glad.
I'm glad that you shared that.
Now I want to talk a little bitmore about, the performance
photography side of it again,because I'm sure that it's not.
The traditional sense like it isportraits where a parent calls
you, hires you to do the shootat a school during a performance

(34:54):
because it's the school who'shiring you for the performance.
that right?

That's right.
Yeah, it's the school.

Okay, so kind of walk me just a little bit
behind the scenes of thebusiness side of this.
Does the school pay you tophotograph the dancers and then
you give away all the photos tothe parents or how does that
work?

there's kind of two ways to do it in kind of a
hybrid way as well.
basically whoever is keeping thephotos is the one who's paying
me.
So sometimes a school will hireme and they will pay me.
And then I give the photos tothem and they use the photos for
their marketing or for whateverreason they have.
Or maybe they are distributingthe photos to their students.

(35:35):
I would price it according towhatever their usage is going to
be.
More often though, what happensis the school contacts me to
take photos, and the school paysme a fee so that they can use
the photos for their marketing,but then I also am selling the
photos to all the parents of thedancers.
And I do that through an onlinephoto gallery.

Okay, so, having all the parents come into
one place to be able to sellphotos online is something that
I also hear a lot of questionsabout from new photographers.
They don't know where to go.
They don't know what sorts ofProducts to offer they don't
know, what is the best system touse to sell, photos online do

(36:16):
you have any words of advice onmaybe how many products to offer
and even how to Just a verybasic of how to price products

Yeah, so finding a system that will allow you to
sell is fairly easy shoot proofand pixie set are both Really
great.
And, they have, differencesbetween them and there's a lot
of similarities between them aswell.
Both of those are excellentsystems to use for this sort of
thing in terms of what productsto offer.
I'm a fan of starting simple andthen improving things as you go.

(36:50):
So if this is your first timeselling any, anything with
photos, and if you don'tactually print a lot of photos
yourself, and you don't have alot of experience with printing
photos and most of your work iswith digital.
I would say just sell digitalphotos.
Just sell, you know, keep itsimple.
If it's stressing you out, getit more simple.
Because if you do a great jobwith this first sale, then

(37:12):
they'll call you back and haveyou do more in the future.
And then at that point you canadd more options, you can add
more products as you go.
in terms of pricing, you reallywant to make sure that you are
pricing things as you go.
So that you can cover all yourcosts and you have to really
think about all your costsThere's a lot more than just the
cost of the photo gallery or thecost of Prints if you're selling

(37:36):
prints, you need to think aboutall your costs your insurance
your accounting fees Your paperand you know that you use to
print things just you know youroffice supplies You have to
think about all that make sureyou're covering all that Make
sure that you have enough to payyourself.
However many hours you thinkyou're going to be working on a
project, double it.
You're going to be working twiceas many, at least, if not three

(37:58):
times as many as what you thinkyou're going to work.
So you want to make sure youcharge enough for that.
And I know that that's hard todo with something like this,
because you're like, well, howmany?
How many people will buy photos?
How many photos will they buy?
And I think when you're gettingstarted, you just have to kind
of make your best guess, maybeunderestimate how much How many
people are going to buy and howmuch they're going to buy and

(38:18):
figure out your pricing that waySo in a lot of ways you just you
have to just dive in and startand then you can always improve
as you go

That is such a great tip to just try new
things, you know go out thereand for one just to start simple
You that is great.
I know myself, I got veryoverwhelmed when I first
started.
You know, I thought that I hadto provide everything under the
sun, and I had to come up withprices for all these things.
And, when you go to the store,you see that they're selling
things in mass quantities, soprices are lower, and you just

(38:49):
assume that that's only whatpeople will pay.
so figuring out what it's goingto be worth for you, somebody
who's not selling in massquantities, is a, is a great
tip.
Great tip.

Yep, and I think most people who are buying
things from you understand thatyou are not Walmart.
You know, they, I really do, atleast in my experience.
people understand there's adifference.

Yeah, that's a hard thing, but, I'm glad that
you shared that.
Again, that's another hugehurdle for beginners to get
over.
Whenever I hear any sort ofquestion about pricing, I know
that's going to help a lot ofpeople.
can you kind of share now thatyou've been shooting dance for a
while, I'm sure that you've seena lot of dance photos.
I know personally that you'vetaken dance photography
workshops.

(39:29):
what are some signs of anamateur dance photographer?

Okay, so some signs of an amateur dance
photographer are having a cameraperspective where the camera is
high And looking like maybe thecamera is at face level Or maybe
like chest level or maybe evenhigher especially for the little
kids Right, you're even likeabove them using a wide angle
lens, especially if you're closeup taking a photo of somebody

(39:54):
and then probably the really bigthing is If the dancer is not
doing the pose correctly, iftheir foot is like sickled Which
means it's sort of like liketurned in like this if they're
doing a jump and they're toesare not pointed But their toes
are kind of like straight out orjust kind of like halfway
pointed If a knee is bent whenit shouldn't be bend.
So if the dancers technique isnot correct in the photo even if

(40:17):
it's a beautiful photo with themost beautiful light, you know,
and the most gorgeous backgroundever, it's not a good photo.
I would say those three thingsare what would tell me that it's
amateur or somebody who hasn'tyet studied and learned how to
take really great dance photos.

Yeah, what I'm learning is that this form of
photography is very, very, verydetail oriented and requires a
very, trained eye from thephotographer.
And it is, I think it's great tohear that you didn't even start
off dancing as a child, that yougot into this, much later after
just watching your own daughter,which just kind of, goes to show

(40:56):
that even if you didn't grow upin dance, you can still pursue
something like this and besuccessful, so

that's great.
Yes, we can all, we can alwayslearn.
I mean, until our last day,we're always learning.
you know, if you were like me,and you didn't learn about dance
earlier in your life, you canlearn now.
I took a dance class.
I asked dancers around me.
I would show them photos, and Iwould say, what's good about
this photo?
What's bad about it?
I'll go to workshops.
Watch YouTube videos of danceclasses where you see the

(41:25):
instructor teaching the class.
Observe any dance classes thatyou have the opportunity to
observe.
Because when you're observing aclass, you hear the teacher
correcting the students.
Oh my gosh.
So you learn what's proper andwhat is not.
there's a lot of fun ways tolearn about it.

I never would have thought about that.
that is so smart.
I would have just googled dancephotography tips on YouTube, but
the fact of just like, well,let's just see what a class
entails is that's so smart.
I'm not, I'm not a very smartperson.
This is why I like having these,uh, conversations with others.
Cause now I get these other,perspectives.
That's awesome.
what do you think would besomething that, somebody would

(42:04):
be surprised to find out aboutbeing a dance photographer?

gosh, I don't know.
I mean, something people wouldbe surprised to find out about
being a dance photographer.
maybe that you need to have,wardrobe supplies on hand.
You need scissors to trim away,like, loose strings.
You need safety pins.
because the costuming, like whatthey're wearing, the wardrobe

(42:30):
is, is also an important part ofthe photos.
So you kind of need to have justsome backup supplies.
there's also a lot of retouchingthat often needs to happen.
Because with a lot of dancephotos, there's a lot of skin
showing arms, legs, faces, whenpeople have bruises on their
legs, maybe they have a linearound their ankle from where

(42:52):
they were wearing socks earlierin the day, you know, like, and
then, and then they, they takethe sock off before the photo
session, and it takes severalhours for that, I don't know
what you call it, that linearound the ankle to go away.
So if it's still there, you haveto edit that out later.
so editing dance photos becauseof all the skin retouching and
the wardrobe, is pretty intense.

That just all goes back to having that strong
attention to detail.
I love that.
Well, Emily, I want to thank youfor your time.
You've been very gracious andyou have answered every question
that I have thrown your way andthen some.
I asked way more questions thanI even had written down and you
answered them all wonderfully.
I know that the listener isgoing to get a lot out of this,
interview with you.

(43:32):
so thank you.
Before I let you go, can youshare with the listeners where
they can, find some of your workonline?

Yeah, so my website is www.
emilybrunnerphotography.
com And brunner is with two n'sb r u n n e r That's my website.
And then I also have aninstagram and it's
emilybrunnerphotography Andfacebook, page for my business
Emily Brunner Photography.

(44:00):
So they all have the same name.
So you can find me in any ofthose places.
Or

you can find me at

the, uh, the local theater taking photos of
dancers.

Yeah.
Well, again, Emily, I want tothank you so much for coming on
and, I always love keeping upwith you and your stories and
even on Instagram.
I love your little weekly,stories that you share on there
as well.
So, I look forward to keeping upwith you and everything that
you're doing.

Thanks so much, Raymond.

Seriously, incredible chat with Emily
Bruner.
So Emily, thanks again so muchfor coming on.
Today's action item, meaning theone thing that if you implement
it will move the needle forwardin your photography journey, is
this practice capturing motion.
Motion can be incrediblydifficult to capture, especially

(44:46):
when you're just starting out.
You know, there's a lot ofelements that you need to have
control over from your shutterspeed to your auto focus mode.
It's not as simple as set it andforget it.
If either of those are outtawhack, then the motion gets
missed.
So photograph a friend or familymember dancing, or your dog
running and playing, fetch,whatever it is, something with

(45:06):
motion, a car driving by,whatever.
Master just the shutter speedand auto focus modes at first,
and once you're able to capturethe motion, then work on your
composition.
And capturing not just a photoof motion, but an intentional
image of motion.
So there you go.
And hey, I would love to see youin the free and amazing beginner

(45:27):
photography podcast, Facebookcommunity.
So come join us, won't you justhead over to beginner photo
pod.com/group now.
Again, that's beginner photopod.com/group, and I'll see you
inside.
Until next week.
Remember, the more that youshoot today, the better of a
photographer you will betomorrow.

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