From Creative Burnout to Capturing the Joy of Work with Brian Doben

Episode Transcript
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Brian Doben (00:00):
A lot of the younger photographers don't

(00:02):
wanna do is to assist.
And I understand it's not asglamorous, but if you wanna have
a longevity in this industry,it's important to understand the
steps.
You have to understand its ownsystem before you throw it away.
You have to understand dynamicrange of a chip before you
decide if you wanna over orunder expose or what your iso

(00:24):
should be.
You have to know these things ifyou really care about this
craft.

Raymond Hatfield (00:31):
Hey, welcome to the Beginner Photography
Podcast.
I'm your host, Raymond Hatfield,and today we're chatting with
editorial photographer BrianDobin about capturing portraits
of people who are passionateabout their work.
But first, the Beginner ofPhotography podcast is brought
to you by Cloud Spot.
With Cloud Spot, you can impressyour clients with a beautiful
gallery that is easy to view,share, and download on any

(00:54):
device.
You can control image size at awatermark and download limits
too.
So grab your free foreveraccount today
over@deliverphotos.com and onlyupgrade when you are ready.
I think it's easy for somepeople to look at photographers
and say like, wow, you have thebest or the easiest job in the
whole world.
You know?
Especially with people likeeditorial photographers, you get

(01:17):
to hang out with celebrities, goto cool locations, and get paid
to quote unquote press a button.
And I think it's, it's easy tolook at a food truck worker, a
painter, a mime, a hairstylist,a cartoonist.
And maybe say the same thing,right?
Like, wow, you have such anamazing job.
And while they're notnecessarily easy jobs, they

(01:38):
require somebody who ispassionate about the work that
they do.
Today's guest, Brian Dobin, hasbeen photographing people who
are passionate about their workfor years and has just released
a brand new book called At Work.
And as you'll hear in thisinterview, I'm a big fan of the
book and Brian's work, and Iencourage you to check it out
too.
In fact, there's a link in theshow notes to check out, not

(02:00):
only his book, but also abeautiful video that, Brian
shared with me of him shootingand connecting with some of his
subjects.
I know that's a big thing for alot of photographers.
You wanna see how otherphotographers work so that you
can get some ideas and bringthat into your photography.
So be sure to check that out inthe show notes.
For the links, there's also alink to Brian's Instagram as

(02:21):
well where you can see some moreof his work.
And before we get on into thisinterview, I just want to take a
moment to give you a round ofapplause.
I applaud you for taking thetime to listen to the Beginner
Photography podcast and to dosomething for yourself and your
creativity and not just wasteyour time doom scrolling or
watching tv, or being bored.

(02:43):
You're making the right choicetowards being the person who you
want to become.
So again, round of applause.
Alright, with that, let's goahead and get on into today's
interview with Brian Dobin.
Brian, when did you know thatphotography was gonna play an
important role in your life?

Well, it's a little bit of a story, but essentially
I wanted to be a professional,cyclist.
I wanted to ride in the Tour deFrance and that life, that
seemed to not be my, ending inthe sense where, or it wasn't
gonna be for me justgenetically.
I didn't have what it took.
I was in, a state school in NewYork called SUNY Purchase,
getting a liberal arts degree orstarting to, and just had an

(03:21):
instinct to pick up a camera andjust try something new.
I was starting over in terms ofwhat I thought my future would
be, so I didn't really knowwhere and what I would be doing.
And, it was a rainy day and Ijust decided to go out and take
a photo and see what happens.
And it literally turned into,the greatest romance of my life,

(03:42):
aside from my wife.
But it's been truthfully, it waslove at first sight.

Tell me more about that instinct that you
had.
It had to have came fromsomewhere.
Did you photograph much at allwhen you were a kid?
Did your parents always have acamera around?
Why do you think you just pickedup a camera as opposed to
anything else?
I.

Raymond, that's a great question and I don't know
the answer'cause truthfully, Ihad no artistic thoughts, in
terms of what I, you know, Inever, sketched, I never took
photos.
I didn't pick up a film camera.
I never went to museums.
I loved walking around, thestreets of Brooklyn, which is
where I'm from.
I loved biking through New YorkCity, and just observing, it was

(04:22):
an unconscious drive, I guess,within me to just absorb
everything around and then just.
don't know.
Honestly, I don't know what itwas that drew me to picking up a
camera, but I just, I had thisinstinctual feeling and
instincts have always beensomething I lived by up until
then and continually is that Idon't, I try not to overthink

(04:43):
things I do at times.
It's, we're humans,

It's human.
Yeah.

head, but I try to really follow what I believe is
the path for myself.
And I said, I just, I borrowed acamera and I just went for a
walk with a friend and we juststarted walking around and I saw
this leaf with a, a one raindropon it.
The photo's right next to mehere, matter of fact, it's not
the greatest photograph, butit's literally.

(05:07):
the first photograph I took andit, was just, I said to myself,
if I can make something of thismoment, there's something here.
I went to the dark room.
I asked a classmate how to, Ididn't have a photo.
I wasn't taking a class.
I just asked him how I developedfilm.
it just started.
It just, I couldn't believe thatI was able to take my ideas and

(05:30):
bring them to life.
I never knew that I had a voice.
just thought of myself as, um,in the machine, if you will.

Really, but you were going to school for a
liberal arts degree.
So like what was your intention?

At the time it was, either psychology or law.
That's what I thought that Iwanted to do.
and I quickly realized thatneither one filled my bucket.
and I just started to completelyobsessed to the point where I
had to transfer out of theschool because I had taken by my
junior year, I had taken photoclass, I had taken every class

(06:08):
that a master's student wouldget.
There was nothing left for me todo at the school.
I would spend days on end.
I was hospitalized for spendingso much time in a dark room.
I just was all in everythingabout me.

You were hospitalized from spending so
much time in the dark room fromwhat?
Inhaling all the chemicals I.

yeah, yeah.
I had a, a, I guess a poisonouslevel in my, bloodstream from
working, or in my oxygen.
It was a whole thing.
It was very dramatic.
I was, sharing a dark room witha, a student and, she had
covered the black and whitechemicals, I was doing color, so

(06:46):
I was just using the dark roomto, to eliminate onto the paper
and then go to the machine.
While I was so accustomed to thesmells, I didn't even smell
chemicals and the vent was off.
And I remember waking up on thefloor, scratching at the door
because I had passed out and Iwas immediately rushed to the
hospital.
It's pretty dramatic.
but that's kind of my, I wouldsay that gave me street cred

(07:07):
right there.

Yeah.
For sure.
I've never heard anybody share asimilar story, so that
definitely gives you some streetcred.
So I guess the next question is,was your first thought maybe I
should give this up or, oh, Igotta get back in that room.

I didn't even think about it.
I just went right back to it.
There was nothing, along thisjourney except for one moment
where I thought it's time to trysomething different.
but I've been in love with thisfrom day one.
It's the only thing I know mytruth.
And, I'm very, very fortunateto, call myself a professional

(07:43):
photographer.

That is amazing.
So, okay, let's now talk aboutthat transition from student
into professional photographer.
what was that like?
Did you go straight out of, ofcollege?
What happened?

I'll tell you, it was a moment in which I really
got a handed, reality.
'cause in college a lot oftimes, you know, give you this
kind of idea that you can leavehere and just become a
professional and go in theworld.
I went to New York.
My girlfriend now my wife, wemoved to New York City, which is
where I'm from.
and we couldn't even get anapartment because at the time,

(08:15):
it was very difficult forrenters to get an apartment.
There seemed to be an abundantof renters to apartments.
So they were able to chooseperfect candidate for the
apartment.
this was 1996.
and so we were sleeping oncouches for the entire summer.
Couldn't get a job, couldn'tfind a place to live, and

(08:36):
realized I'm just another personback in New York.
This is not like, guaranteedanything.
I.
and through and friends, I wasable to find my first assistant
gig, which was sweeping thedarkroom floor of a photographer
that I admired.
And that's where it reallystarted.
I went from being a student andhaving a big portfolio to

(08:56):
sweeping a floor then printingfor him to then packing his
equipment before he leaves andthen going on the road with him.
So each one of those steps tookweeks, if not months, to get to
the next step.
And it was such an importantlearning lesson, and it was such
a great reset for me from an egoperspective especially, but also

(09:18):
it gave me the ability to reallylearn beyond just the technical,
which is what you learn inschool now.
It's real life.
And now you see how lights areused, how lenses and cameras are
actually utilized in, in thefield.
And then on top of that, how towork with clients, which I think
most photographers really don'tunderstand.

(09:40):
ones.

Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, I think it's'cause we getso excited about the, we have
this idea, oh, I see somethingin this world that I can
capture.
You learn the tool and then youthink, quote unquote, my work
should speak for itself andpeople should come to me.
But that's just as we know, notthe case as time and that there
is a human element tophotography and that photography

(10:02):
is a service as more so than itis a product.
So learning how to work withclients is incredibly important.
So before we get on into thesecond phase of your life and
talking about your new bookhere, what is one of the most
important things that you think,new photographers need to know
about working with clients?

Listen to their words.
and respect it because, theyhave a point of view whether
they truly understand to bringthat to life.
It's important to understandthis is their story, that it's
their baby.
They're handing it to you.
job is to elevate it, make itbetter than they thought it
could be, but keep it withintheir truth.

(10:40):
it's critical for us to keep ourego at check understand that we
are a craftsperson who is usingour art to bring it to life, but
it's not all us.
It's a collaborative experience.
Right or wrong.
the dance with art and commerce.
It's the understanding that,that yes, you're getting paid

(11:02):
and you could be getting paid alot of money or very little.
You still put the same effortout, you still put the same,
time into it.
And our job is truly to takethat baby that seed and watch it
flourish.
That's really what we do.
And that's, really the way myexperience after 27 years, in

(11:24):
the industry is, is that's howyou have repeat clients, is for
them to feel heard.

Hmm.
What does that look like in, inan editorial sense?
Because correct me if I'm wrong,I know that you've worked with
some large national,international brands before.
so how does that work?
Let's just take, apple or Chasefor example.
They don't come to you.
They have another company thatcomes to you like an art
director or somebody else whocomes to you, finds you, to do

(11:51):
the work, and then now you haveto listen to them and hope that
they listened to their clientcorrectly.
Is sounds like a game oftelephone.

unfortunately the, the paradigm has shifted quite a
bit and it seems as of the past,unfortunately, oh, quite a while
now, the agency's voice is,becoming less and less and it,
the client is overpowering theagency.
And that's a really dangerous,we're in a dangerous place
because

How so?

the days of old, there was the client who would
sit, you know, I'm talking aboutnow we're on set, the client who
would be there, but they don'treally say much because now
they've signed off on it.
Now they're just letting theirprofessionals do what they do.
Now, unfortunately, that linehas been crossed and it seems as
though there is no barrier.

(12:39):
And so the client is standingwith the art director or
creative director, or executivecreative director, speaking
directly to me, about theirideas rather than it going
through the natural filter,which used to be, and it is very
inefficient client to a accountperson to producer within the
agency, to the producer of myshoot to me.

(13:02):
So there was all those buffers.
A lot of it's wasted, but therewas a reason for all of that.
And it's now you're on setdealing with agency and client
directly.
and it's a really, it's just theworld we're in.
It's not gonna change.
And so we have to accept it andjust really be collaborative.
I was on a project, years agonow, I was in London at the

(13:25):
Natural History Museumphotographing for Bing the web
server.
And they wanted to do this bigshot of the whale skeleton.
It's a very famous skeleton,blah, blah, blah.
So they were doing a TVcommercial and they were doing
some stills alongside, and I wasdoing the stills and the client
walks up to me and the image, Iloved it.

(13:46):
And in the end, it actually,it's what ran.
But the, this is a great exampleof listening.
The client came to me and said,I'm sorry, I don't like this
image that you're doing.
I said, that's okay.
I said, what is it you don'tlike?
And she said, I don't know.
I'm not a creative, but I wassent on this shoot.
I just don't like it.

(14:07):
I said, okay, that's very fair.
Let me find something you mightlike.
So I kind of gave her a fewdifferent angles to kind of get
a sense of what she was liking.
And then we went for it.
In the end, she felt respectedand heard, which is what we
should be doing, she ended upchoosing the image that I had
done from the beginning.
So it's just the process.

(14:28):
Is it frustrating at times?
Yes, because we're wasting ourtime, chasing our tail when we
should be making it better andbetter.
But it's also really, like Isaid, it's listening to them and
making sure that they're heardand that their point of view is
respected and and taken intoconsideration.

that can be difficult.
I mean, I know just fromshooting weddings, which
obviously doesn't have the sameamount of weight as working
with, say international brands,

I disagree.

they can be argued, but like, I think it's
hard working with people whooftentimes are not as visually
literate as us as photographers,and we kind of have to act as
this cipher to figure out whatis it that you're trying to tell
me and how can I deliver on thisthing that you're not able to
clearly communicate.
and I think that that's probablythe mark of a professional, just

(15:13):
somebody who has the experience,somebody who's been there,
somebody who's had to, I guessbe quote unquote battle tested,
to do that.
And that only comes fromexperience.
You know, we can't read about itin the book and suddenly know
exactly what to do next time orwatch a YouTube video, but it
has to be experienced.
And I'm glad that, glad that youhave a lot of that to share with
us.
So,

Well, and Raymond, on that point, I think that's
the critical part that a lot ofthe younger photographers don't
wanna do is to assist.
And I understand it's not asglamorous, but if you wanna have
a longevity in this industry,it's important to understand the
steps.
You have to understand its ownsystem before you throw it away.

(15:54):
You have to understand dynamicrange of a chip before you
decide if you wanna over orunder expose or what your iso
should be.
You have to know these things ifyou really care about this
craft, and that comes fromlearning, being on set as an
assistant on some level for sometime.
There's no time limit andthere's, there's no minimum or

(16:15):
maximum to the time, but youhave to give it that time so
that when you're in thosesituations, you know how
professionals handle it.
one wrong word, it's over.

Mm

matter how good the image is, if you're not playing
the game, you're not part of theteam.

mm.

And it's important to understand that, it doesn't
make me a better photographer.
It gives me the experience tohandle more situations.
And after all these years, Imean, I don't know of a
situation I probably haven'twitnessed on some level.
So it's important to really putyourself in as many scenarios as
possible so that you could thenhandle it one day yourself.

That's beautiful.
Brian, I got a copy of your bookat Work, your new book, So first
of all, let me just say thanksfor, for having that sent over.
It is a wonderful book to lookat, and I love looking at, photo
projects that there's something,in say, commissioned work,
right?
Like, I can look at a, a wholebook of wedding photography, but
like, if I'm not connected toany of these people, it's just

(17:17):
beautiful images and that's it.
But then when somebody brings aproject.
And then they share it to theworld.
Just a personal project,something that they wanted to do
themselves.
It has a different feel to theimages, and I have such a hard
time putting my finger onexactly what it is, but it's
that quote unquote it factor,you know?
So looking at your work, there'sthis liveliness to it.

(17:39):
There's this element of, not somuch joy, but, maybe
appreciation for life.
Like, in the subjects thatyou're photographing, it's, they
love that they get to do what itis that they're doing.
And I think that a lot of peoplecan look at photographers and
say, their life must be amazing.
They must love every day thatthey go to work, because all
that they gotta do is set upsome, you know, some lights, a

(18:00):
camera photograph, some fancypeople.
But I was fascinated to learnthat in the intro to the book,
that that wasn't the case foryou.
So tell me about this shootthat, you share in the book that
you had in Nashville that kindof started this whole project.

Well, essentially what happened was I was in
Nashville doing an editorialshoot, with a country artist,
famous country artist, KeithUrban, and wonderful guy
easygoing, kind of the bestscenario for photographer.
And because you're working withsomeone who's just collaborative
and I had already been aprofessional for 10 years, a

(18:35):
little bit more than that.
And had already been doingtravel, have traveled to all
seven continents.
As a travel photographer, I didcelebrity, I did fashion, but I
didn't do me.
And so that night my wife Icalled her from my hotel room
and she, um, since I, how'd theshoot go?
And I said it was fine, and shegot all nervous'cause it's just,

(18:56):
you know, she always wants tomake sure that things were okay.
And I said, no, the shoot wentwell.
I said, but I don't, I'm nothaving fun anymore.
This isn't fun.
I'm just stamping out products.
I don't have a voice.
I feel disconnected from mycamera, my art, everything from
myself to be really fair frommy, I didn't know who I was in a
sense.

(19:16):
I felt like an imposter.
And so I had this list of ideasI wanted to do that had nothing
with photography.
It was a whole laundry list.
And every single one, she said,no.
like, that's not who you are,and we had recently I'd had a
baby.
So there's that responsibilityof, okay, well you can't just
run from what you're goingthrough, you can't run from it.

(19:37):
You have to face it.
So she had been with me sincecollege, so she knew that I used
to do portraits.
I used to shoot eight by 10.
So very slow process.
A lot of talking.
And she said, why don't you justgo out and photograph some
people again?
Go back to what you used to loveto do.
And I was scared shitless'causeI thought, oh God, is really

(19:58):
vulnerable.
Like, I've done projects beforetrying to get work, but I'm
being asked by my wife,assigning me a project, which is
just go back to what I used todo.
the first question is, what isthat?
'cause I was kind of lost andthen I realized I just need to
stop thinking, pick up my camerago back out.

(20:19):
And so I, at the time wasworking quite a bit in Nashville
and my local assistant, I calledand I said to him, Hey Joel, you
have any recommendations ofpeople that I could go
photograph for no reason, I haveno assignment, I just wanna go
do some portraits.
And he said, yeah, this woman,she owns this taco shop.

(20:40):
It's relatively new.
It's really cool.
It used to be a taco truck.
And a local, one of the bigfamous musicians kind of came
and said, listen, you're toogood for just this.
You gotta have this too.
So she went from just a simpletaco truck to a booming line out
the door a.
of business.
So I said, okay, I have to meetthis woman.

(21:02):
She was kind enough to meet withme.
We had the most wonderfulconversation in the front of her
taco truck.
We're eating tacos, we'relaughing.
And I went back after the dayand I thought, God, that was so
much fun.
really enjoyed myself.
thought, oh shit.
Did I take any photographs?
Did I do what I went out to do?

(21:23):
And I looked back,'cause,shooting digital.
And I went through the files andI, oh, this is actually really,
I don't know, there's somethinghere.
I'm, I'm connecting to this.
I'm seeing what I've beenwanting and yearning for for a
long time, which is me in thephotos, I'm seeing my my truth,
come out.

(21:44):
And that's really how it began.
It just began with just anhonest reset for myself with no
intentions.
I had zero intentions of itbecoming a project.
I had zero intentions of itgoing anywhere.
It was really to refill myheart.
It was truly to refill my heart.
And 13 years later, I don'tknow, six, 700 shoots around the

(22:05):
world, all I paid for, I can'ttell you how amazing this
journey has been and what it'sdone for me, both most
importantly what it's done forme and my family, but then what
it's done for my, the businesshas been really good too.
But it's really, it refilled mysoul.
And it gave me, gave me thebelief,

Wow.
The belief in, in you behind thecamera.

belief in me behind the camera, belief in me.

Mm-hmm.

importantly, it gave me.
first time, a feeling of I havesomething to offer, whether it's
a photograph or just talking tosomeone.
There's something inside of methat has worth and value.
And that's the thing I thinkphotography, the magic and
beauty of it is the image couldbe interpreted in any way.

(22:56):
So your truth is gonna beinterpreted by people, but it's
your truth that you're puttingout there.
It's your moment, it's yourbeauty.
And you're not doing it for theintentions of getting a, like on
social media.
You're not doing it to get ajob, you're doing it'cause it's
all you know how to do.
It's all you can ever imaginedoing.

So how did this turn into the idea of, or I
guess the, the concept of atwork.

So I started kind of playing around.
I, I was in Nashville for a fewdays, then I went home and I
looked at it and I was thinkinga lot about it.
And I was up for a very big jobfor an oil company.
It was a global campaign.
It was a big one.
And I lost it.
And it was right beforeChristmas.
and I thought I had it.
It was down to myself and oneother photographer, other

(23:46):
photographer's, great.
done the campaign before.
It's common clients will go totheir safe place.
They've done it.
So they went with him I wasdevastated.
Devastated.
'cause I really was thinkingthis one's happening.
It was that close.
and I thought to myself, youknow what, this is a pretty
heavy loss and financially.

(24:10):
So what am I gonna do with it?
so I, I thought about it and Ithought, you know what?
Screw it.
I'm gonna put all the chips onthe table.
We had some money in the bank,not a ton at that point.
And I said to my wife, I'm gonnago off and I'm gonna go cut a
record.
I'm gonna go cut an album.
And she's like, what are youtalking about?
You're, you know, you're not amusician.
I was like, no, no, no, no.
And it, this is what happenedwith me.

(24:31):
Sometimes I go into theseanalogies that make no sense to
my wife, and then it makessense.
But I might as well just nothave used the analogy.
I should have just said it.
Years before I had this amazing,wonderful black and white,
printer, Jim McGarvey, McGarvey,or McGarvey, oh, it's been so
long.
was, Steven Klein, StevenMeisel, Annie Ovitz, Avedon,

(24:54):
Irving Penn.
Those were his clients.
That's who he printed for.
I mean, he was that iconic.
He was on the, the Meat PackingDistrict, in New York City.
And he said to me one day,'causehe, I had to meet him and
basically get inter a portfolioreview before he would print for
me.

Wow.

And he chose to do it, which was incredible.
He said to me once, you know,photographers are the laziest
artists.
He goes and he took out picturesof Irving Penn, Avadon Marielle,
and Mark Annie Leitz, and said,look, they do the same thing
every time.
It's a formula.
It's a formula.
He goes, musicians go into theirinto the recording studio all

(25:36):
the time and they cut new musicthat no one ever hears.
But it's because they'reconstantly exploring and trying
to get their voice to anotherplace.
This sound to another place.
How does that sound work withthis voice?
And whether it works or not,doesn't matter.
They're always hungry for that.
He goes, why are you guys solazy?

(25:56):
do, you know, I mean, this iswhat he said.
He goes, Avedon everything ongray, Irving, Penn, everything.
The light comes from the sameangle every time.
He made all these comments'causeit was like inside baseball kind
of comments.
And that stuck in my head.
So years later I said to mywife, I'm gonna go cut an album,
meaning I'm gonna go.
something that no one is askingme to do.

(26:18):
No one's expecting from me.
I'm not reinventing the wheel,but I'm gonna find who I am.
So I booked a ticket to, it was,I went first to India, Mumbai,
and then I went to Tokyo and Ihad basically hired local
production to help me findpeople to photograph, to
continue this project that I'dstarted in Nashville.

(26:41):
There was no name to it.
It was just a project.
And then while I was there, ithit me, these people are at
work, love what they do, itstarted to all come together.
And that's really truthfully howit started.
I put all, all our chips on thetable.

love that story so much'cause there's this
element of like self-awarenessthat you know, what it is that
you love in an image beingphotographing people who are
doing what they love.
Right.
Doing interesting work.
And again, when I go throughyour book, there's a lot of
interesting jobs, right, thatpeople are doing, but sometimes
there's not so interesting jobs.
There's just a regular job andpeople are bringing a level of,

(27:21):
of excitement, of accountabilitymaybe for the skill that they're
doing to this work.
So, how do you go about findingpeople in these roles?
Do you have a idea of the roleof the jobs that you want to
capture?
Do you get a lead on the type ofperson?
How do you find these people tophotograph?

It goes back to instinct.
A lot of times I just will havean idea.
My studio manager who's beenwith me on this journey from day
one, can attest that I come upwith shit that is just like mid
november, early December.
I need to go to Alaska inJanuary.
I don't know why, but, and let'smake it happen.

(28:00):
And then we really work as ateam to find people to tick
certain boxes.
I try, I think, don't reallyactually consciously think about
it much, but I think what it is,it's like I find the pillars of
the place I'm gonna go, and thenI allow for the real magic to
happen in between.
It's who they know.
They might have a recommendationand it just snowballs.

(28:22):
But the pillars are there.
There's a frame already there.
So like I have a safety, butit's really finding those other
people.
It tends to be done before I getthere, just for the sake of
efficiency I'll find out is, youknow, is Bo Oh, Bob says Mary
would be great.
We contact Mary.
We have that conversation.
And then Mary might say, oh, youhave to meet my friend Louisa.

(28:44):
That's really how it comestogether.
It's an energy and the more,I've done it and the larger the
body of work has, it's grown to,it's that much easier for people
to sign on.
I mean, I, I think in all of myshoots since day one, I've
probably been rejected maybethree or four times.
Like

Really.

people are really excited because they feel that
energy in the passion.
I'm gonna go all the way to youto celebrate you.
And that's really what it comesdown to.
There's no hidden agenda.
There's nothing that they haveto do.
They get the images, they canuse them for marketing, they
can, you know, whatever it mightbe.
They are part of my journey.

(29:26):
And I let them know that rightfrom day one.
And really at the end of theday, who has an issue with that?
Who's gonna be like, well, Idon't want that.
Everybody wants to be recognizedand heard and appreciated.
And I love being part of that.
Truly, it's, it's incredible.

So I can think of a lot of people who don't
love their job or don't bringpassion to their job, right?
There's a lot of people who goto their nine to five and they
collect the paycheck so thatthey can do something else on
the weekend.
But again, I mean, it seems likethe people who you're
photographing truly take pridein their work or they truly
enjoy their work.

(30:03):
And so now, like, what it soundslike you're telling me is that
you go to these people sightunseen, but just having a, a
simple conversation with them,what over the phone to determine
if they're gonna be a good fitfor your project.
Have you ever done one whereyou're like, oh, this person is
bringing nothing here.

Yeah, there have been a few people who I believe
they had all the rightintentions, but they just, they
were scared.
They, and they let that takeover.
love that challenge.
I then will take it, make itless about the work and more
about the person.
So I'm still striving and I'mstill trying to, I'm searching
for that, that thing.

(30:41):
Look, not everyone loves whatthey do and the people that love
what they do, really hard work.
It doesn't make it easier, butthey are doing what they're
passionate about.
I love photography.
There's nothing else I wanna do,but, ain't easy.
And it's really, there's dayswhere I am really frustrated,
but I have to put myself incheck and say, but I, I chose

(31:03):
this.
what I love.
And I would say to people whoare yearning to do something
else, do it.
Because you get one chance here,we get one walk and it should be
the most glorious walk.
It's not easy either way.
It's one thing if you're making,so much money and you're like,
look, I know that I'll nevermake that as a potter, but I

(31:25):
love pottery and I do it on theweekends.
Wonderful.
If that, if you can balance it,I think it's more important to
find the thing you love andbring you have into it.
and it.
There's no better jobs, worsejobs.
It's what you love to do.
And that's, I mean, I don'tknow.
I think what you, you, you hadearlier talked about living in

(31:48):
life.
Those are very important wordsto me because early on in my
journey with this project, I wasin a near death situation where
I'm a cyclist and a womanattacked me with her car and I
was hurt very bad.

attacked you with her car.

Yeah.
Yeah.
random act of violence, happensto people.
And I got very, I got injured.
it, it was very bad.
I, you know, front teethremoved, holes in my face and
neck.
I have a traumatic brain injury.
I forgot I had a daughter.
I had no use of my hands.
I was hurt.
It was such a reminder of howquickly things can change and a

(32:28):
reminder of the brain and howdelicate it is, the ecosystem of
our bodies.
So important for me to live eachday.
And I don't mean in the senseof, well, I hope I'm alive to
live each day to embrace andhonor it.
Not every day am I perfect aboutit?

(32:50):
But it's really about honoringeach day because it, it could
end.
And I don't live in fear.
I live in respect for the time Ihave.
So the time I have here, I wantit to be the best it can be.

Geez.
Wow.
Suddenly there's a lot of thingsthat I was complaining about
earlier that suddenly don't haveas much weight at all after a
story like that.

have weight.
Listen, it ain't easy.
Life is hard there's a lot ofshit.
And I said to my daughter yearsago after my accident, she had a
little boo boo and she said,well, my boo booo doesn't hurt
as much as yours.

Mm

true.
Your boo booo hurts just as muchas mine.

mm.

we all have our ups and downs, right?
I.
What's most important is thatyou try to find balance with it
all.

Mm-hmm.

I listened to someone recently who said, I
don't look for happiness.
I look for peace within myself.
I thought that was the knowledgeright there shared.
know, it's finding peace in allof those storms, whether it's a
creative idea that you'reworking through or it's
something in life that's just,hitting your heart.

(33:58):
It's trying to find, navigateyourself through it.

That is about as motivational as it gets right
there.
I appreciate you for sharingthat story.
That is, I know that a lot ofphotographers out there have
reasons why they want to shoot.
Right.
reasons for me, I, I alwayswanted to, when I first started,
I wanted to get into familyphotography.
My dad had passed away when Iwas just a few months old and
never really, I never got toknow him.
And I always looked at friendswith like large families and

(34:24):
like there was.
There was some envy there, therewas some, maybe not jealousy,
but like there was this desire,I kind of wanted that, so I, I
had this idea that I would getinto family photography so that
I could kind of surround myselfwith that.
Turns out that's not what Iloved at all.
But, I know that how importantit is to use our life experience
to find the thing to, to captureand to photograph and to, to

(34:46):
spend our limited time on.
I, I appreciate you sharingthat, and that was good.

and I appreciate you saying what you did because
what you just shared with me iswhat my experience has been
through this whole journey of atwork and actually beyond this
project, even just my day-to-daycommercial shoots, editorial
shoots.
It's having that humanconnection.
It's, the photograph issecondary.

(35:14):
And I say that to clients aswell.
It's a secondary in the process,the most important thing is for
us to have a connection becauseif the connection's there, the
photograph will come.

Yeah.

You know, as a professional, you hand me a
camera, I don't even know how orwhy, but it's so secondary to
me.
I don't think it's just there.
It's an extension of me, thecamera.
So I'm capturing itunconsciously, but it's our time
together, that is what bringsthat image to life.

(35:45):
And you sharing your story ofyour childhood and your loss of
your father is and has been afundamental and a foundation of
who you are, as much pain asthat had brought you or as much
pain as I've gone through, allfor a purpose at the time.

(36:06):
No.
We don't wanna hear that, andthat's fine, but it's part of
the human experience.
And so when I work with peopleon the outwork project or even
just commercially, I try to findwhere did it start?
And typically, Raymond, it's asimilar story.
Something triggered somethingthat occurred.

(36:27):
It's interesting to me.
There are some people who arenot even aware that that
occurred, right?
They're just like, they are soout of their own body that
they're not enough orcomfortable enough to go that
deep.
But I bring it out and we justtalk.
And all of a sudden they'll say,oh, I never thought of that.
I never thought that my grandmommake knitting at the kitchen
table why?

(36:47):
Now I make sweaters.

When looking back, it seems so obvious to
connect those dots.

it's obvious to me 'cause

Yeah.

my

I'm sorry.
Yeah.
From the outside.

say that, or, or, or, or the person, and this is a
true story, the person realizesthat power, that that brings
them the emotional power, butthen the power, it brings them
to be more passionate about whatthey do.

Hmm.

Because they're like, I'm doing this because of
you, because you gave me thatmoment.
It's a, yeah.
And so sharing what we do, asphotographers is critical in
capturing the moment.

One of the biggest things, that I think new
photographers struggle with whenphotographing somebody is how do
I get them to feel comfortablein front of the camera?
Because you can tell as yousaid, If you have a connection
with somebody that's gonna comethrough in the photo, if you
don't have a connection withsomebody, that is also gonna
come through in a photo.
So one of the questions that Iknew that I kind of wanted to
ask you is how do you build thatcredibility?

(37:49):
How do you build that trust insomebody?
But I think that you justanswered it right there, and
it's a genuine curiosity in whothat person is and trying to
learn more about them.
Is that an accuraterepresentation?

Yeah, yeah.
And'cause I say it doesn't meanevery time I've done a shoot,
I've been doing this a longtime.
There's been times where there'sno connection.

Yeah.

that used to happen a lot with celebrity when I did
celebrity shoots previous to theproject because, I was never
angry or frustrated with, I wasfrustrated, but I wasn't angry
at the talent, the celebrity,but I felt like they were so
guarded and it's for a reasonand I understood that.
I've been in the game.
I knew why it's like that,That's why I felt so separate

(38:31):
from the work because I wasn'tpart of it.
I think to really answer thequestion, I would say you first,
as the photographer, have to becomfortable in your skin.
You have to be willing to bearyour truth to some level, to
disarm the situation.
It could be with a joke, itcould be making small talk about

(38:53):
something that has some meaning.
For me, I remember years ago Iworked for a very famous
celebrity photographer, and, hesaid, never go in complimenting
the celebrity for what they'vedone.
'cause you've now, you've putyourself in that place where
you're just, you're just a fan.
Talk about something that'sreal.
Talk about something that yousee that triggers something for

(39:14):
you.
Talk about what's your favoritefruit, bring them back to the
level that you're just, twopeople having a conversation.
You're two kids in the sandbox.
And so when you're working withpeople, which is what I do, I
just try to humanize the moment.
I don't hold the camera rightaway.
I wanna talk to you, I wannalook you in the eyes, I want to

(39:34):
smell you.
I wanna get a sense of theenergy you're giving off.
And then I'm going to try andcompliment that.
And if I have to disarm it, thenwe take a little bit more time
before the camera comes out.
I did a shoot, this is a good, agood example.
I did a, a cover shoot of MonicaLewinsky, several years ago.
And she came in and she was drymouthed.

(39:55):
She was nervous.
This is several years ago, butnot during the scandal.
This

Sure.

know, in the past say seven years.
And she was nerv.
I could see it.
She was nervous and everyonesaid, you have 15 minutes, we're
shooting at the Greenwich Hotelin New York City.
It was a cover.
I said, no.
We're not shooting it andeveryone's freaking out.
And I said, I want her to havesomething to drink and something
to eat.
So Monica and I sat across fromthe table of where we're gonna

(40:23):
photograph her.
It was just a nice, simpledining room table in a suite, in
a hotel.
And we started talking, notabout scandal.
I just wanted to know who shewas as a person.
And we started having a reallywonderful conversation.
And I saw slowly she wasbreathing and I saw that she was
eating and drinking cause I wasthere for her.

(40:44):
I wasn't there'cause of thestory.
The story had nothing to do withthe scandal, but everything has
to do with the scandal for her.
So

Sure.

that guard.
And so my job, more importantlyat that moment photographing her
for the cover was to make herfeel safe because she didn't
feel safe.
And that then created for Ithink, a really nice image of
her and it made the cover and wekept in touch.

(41:12):
And there's a connection now.
because these are people, thesearen't just subjects, these
aren't, you know, I would sayit's the same thing.
If you're a landscapephotographer, space you're
photographing is sacred land.
So you're in the soul.
You have to pay respect theenvironment you're in and you
have to thank it, I believe'cause I do, whenever I

(41:35):
photograph, whenever I've donelandscape, or I did a whole
series on drone landscape typeof arty stuff, I thanked the
land for allowing me to havethis.
I literally did because I knowthat it's not just me that, that
got that moment.

I honestly have so many questions, and I'm
trying to figure out kind ofwhat direction to go here,
because we're getting towardsthe end of our time.
But, screw it.
I'm just gonna ask,

Yeah, go for it.

You're given 15 minutes with somebody,
somebody whose time is closelyguarded.
it's very important to them.
You made a decision to say, no,no, no, we're not gonna shoot
this right now.
She needs something to drink.
She needs something to eat.
I wanna sit down and chat.

Mm-hmm.

there's two directions that you could go.
One, somebody shows up, that'swho they are.
You got a job to do, you need todo that job.
But on the other side, you'renow taking a gamble of saying,
we might go over the 15 minuteshere,

Mm-hmm.

to make Sure.
that I build a connection withthis person because the person
is more important than thephotograph.
What if that had went south?
She only had the 15 minutes andyou weren't able to deliver what
you were commissioned to do,like, is that the risk that you
have to play in your head, oryou're hoping that she's gonna
give you that extra time?

I would say that I grew up in the streets of
Brooklyn in the seventies.
So I would say that I'm streetsmart, very street smart, book
smart, not really.
I don't read books.
I read people, I read, I readthis, this situation.
I knew that it would be okay.
I didn't have a question in mymind, and I even, of course, if
her people said, no, she has toleave now, that's a different

(43:15):
story.
It's the, advanced teams thatcome with all this energy.
You wait for the talent, youwait for the person to show up.
You look them in the eyes,you'll know right away whether
what this is gonna be.
Another example, the opposite toyour point is I had a shoot with
two very, very famous comedians.
I'm only saying very, very, Ican't say the names'cause I

(43:36):
don't wanna disparage them.
It was for a Netflix thing.
It was a massive deal.
I had three minutes to do sevensetups.
Everything was marked and taped.
We were shooting in a diner inNew York City.
Covid was just starting.
I had blown in from Europe justfor the shoot.
I was doing something completelydifferent.

(43:57):
I flew home quickly to do theshoot before I went back to
Europe.
It was a big deal.
Three minutes.
I had a publicist who right,right out off of my lens was
holding a timer.
That's when you say you areprepared because I've marked
everything out.
Everything's lit.
These are professionals.
They're gonna hit their marks.

(44:17):
I wasn't allowed to communicatewith them.
They were going to, they knewwhat they needed to do and I was
there to capture what I neededto capture.
That's when you don't messaround.
That's when you say, yeah, okay,you're paying me a lot of money
to have it prec, scouted,pre-lit, everything marked.
They're gonna hit their marks.
We move on quick.

(44:38):
And that's experience.

Yeah.

experience.
But also the, the buildup to itwas you have three minutes.
Like there was no conversation.
The other example I gave wasmore of a, we have 15 minutes,
hopefully she'll give us alittle bit more.
That's how that went.

I see.

knew, I smelled the situations very different.

yeah,

you know, you are taking a gamble, but you also,
it's the responsibility of thephotographer if you're gonna.
Regardless of how you do it, youshould have a plan of what
you're gonna do throughout thatday.
And everything should besomewhat in your mind framed so
that when it happens, even ifit, you end up not doing it,
that idea can come to lifesomewhere else.

(45:19):
So you have to kind ofstoryboard it in your mind.
You can't just wing it.
Winging it is dangerous.
That's when you done early andyou have a little bit of time
you could play, there's no timefor that.
As a professional, you have toknow what you're gonna do.

That was a great example.
I'm glad that you were able tojust pull that off the top of
your head because that is, Imean, those are polar opposites
of each other, so I, Iappreciate you sharing that.

And they were not the kind, it, it was a very
tense environment'cause of thecovid, but also they're not the
nicest, warmest people.
They weren't rude, but theyweren't.
weren't nice, they weren'tcooperative, they just did what
they were told to do and theythen they just walked out.

Yeah.

yous, nothing.

Uhhuh.

and going back to what you said initially, we're
in the service industry, so it'snot a personal attack on me,

Mm-hmm.

or even when the comment of that client, I don't
like the image.
Please tell me that I tellclients all the time, my time
machine is in the shop, so thisis the time.
If you have an issue with it,let me know.
'cause it's my job is to giveyou what you want,

Yeah.

not what I want, know, necessarily, but what you
want.

Well, let's get back to what you want in
working on this at Work project.
So, I wanna know more about kindof the logistics of it.
specifically I guess one, likehow much time do you have to
capture these people?
Are you going in and it's veryrelaxed and you're trying to
bring this calm environment toit?
Or do you go in knowing exactlywhat you want to capture and you

(46:44):
just try to hit those setupsand, and move on?

The truth is, is that when we go in, we tell
everyone, if you can give anhour to two.

Hmm.

and some people say, oh, I can't because I don't
have that much time.
Okay, time do you have?
And they tell us.
And we, what I try to do is thesame formula I've talked about,
disarm the person, have aconversation.
All of a sudden time becomesirrelevant on some level.
I don't have a plan.
There's been a few times whereI've had an idea of what I think

(47:16):
I'd wanna do.
There's even been one time whereI had a dream, I was in Cuba and
I had a dream of a giraffe, andthe next day I photographed the
woman on stilts walkingdownstairs.
That just was part of a place Iwas going to photograph.
But in general, I would say, goin with an open mind and open
heart to meet someone.

(47:36):
And the camera, like I said, isjust an extension of me.
It's the images are a scrapbookfor me.
It's really the journey that hasalways mattered.
The images are crucial, but Idon't think about it, as like at
the top, I think meeting thisperson, listening to their
story, some sort of a, acommunicative like flow.

(47:58):
I.
And then we start photographing.
Maybe I'm photographing whilewe're talking, or maybe I'll
say, okay, great.
Let's take a break and let's goover here and try this.
It's a little bit of the wholething, but I don't go in with a
preconceived idea.

Right.

this many shoots.

Wow.
That's kind of that idea that Iwas sharing with you earlier.
The difference between an agendaand an intention.
If you show up with an agenda,it's, you're gonna be humbled
real quick.
Right.
Oftentimes you don't know whatthe job exactly entails, the
mood that the person is in, whatthe space looks like.
But if you go in with theintention, there's a lot of
space that I would imagine thatyou can play within.

There's a lot of beauty that comes in that.
Correct.
And for me, from a technicalperspective, I don't really use
too many lights.
I tend to try and play off ofthe daylight.
Maybe there's a touch of light,but the light is not the story
unless the story is the light,if that makes sense.
Like

Mm-hmm.

a sheep herder in, Spain, and the sun was just
rising.
I mean, it's like out of amovie, the sun is rising,
there's fog, it's he's walkingthrough it, holding a lantern.
I couldn't have afforded to makethat happen.
That's like a, that's a big timeproduction for one image.
So like I said, things are givento me.

(49:15):
Because that wasn't supposed tohappen and it was raining the
night before I was like, shit, Idon't know if this guy's gonna
cancel on me.
I drove all that way to meethim.
He might, he's a, you know, he'snot, I'm the least of his day.
He has to get those sheep, And Igot ex, I mean, I have stories
like that where I'm just like, Idon't know why you just gave
that to me, but you did.

(49:35):
Whether it's the person justallowing for that photograph to
happen or, mean, I could giveyou stories if you want to hear
of just these moments where I'mjust like, wow, I didn't, I did
not expect that.

Yeah.
Well that's, that's a humanelement that I think I love so
much about looking at yourimages, is that it doesn't just
feel like I'm physicallywatching somebody do their job.
it feels like I'm watchingsomebody who's doing a job.
And if there's, there's a,there's a slight difference.
And I kind of wanted to ask alittle bit about the context

(50:07):
that you put into your images,because when I look at your
photos, they're not just,they're not just head shots,
right?
It's not just shoulders up, it'sa head.
In your photo in a single frame,I can tell who the person is.
I can tell what it is that theydo.
I can tell where we're at andthe passion that they bring to
this work.
And a lot of that comes, comesin through the context that you

(50:30):
weave.
Maybe taking an extra step back,you know, and giving the, the
frame some space.
So can you talk to me a littlebit about how do you ensure that
you're able to capture all ofthat within a single frame?

Well, from a technical perspective, I tend to
use more of a wide angle.
I tend to shoot between 24 to 28millimeter.
For the reason I, I wanna beclose to you.
feel actually, like, literally Iwanna feel or smell you.
I wanna feel meaning like Iwanna feel the, the heat.
There's something, it'simportant for me to be near you.

(51:02):
If I'm far away.
I feel very, like, I don't know,separated is too simple of a way
of saying it.
I just don't think from like ananimal perspective, we do well
when more, misunderstandingshappen when you're far apart

Yeah.

So I try to be as close as I can be.
And now to your point, bykeeping within the frame a story
that tells.
In saying that, there have beentimes where I've also gone, in a
sense the opposite.
I photographed a mime artist inLas Vegas who was getting, I met
him at his house.

(51:36):
He's talking to me, which wasweird'cause he's in his mime,
you know, he's basically ready.
He almost finished his facemakeup and we were gonna go and
we were gonna go on the strip.
what he wanted to do.
I wanted to meet him at hishouse because if I meet him on
the strip, he's not gonna talkto me.
And he is also gonna be the myartist, so I won't get the human
side.

(51:57):
So we met at his house and we'resitting at his kitchen table and
he's super uncomfortable'causehe's like, it's a white wall
behind him.
And we're just talking.
And I realized what's moreinteresting is the fact that his
profession is about hidinghimself in this character.
I.
So I said, you know what, let'sstop talking to each other.

(52:18):
I said, I just wanna observeyou.
I just wanna watch you.
And I photographed him against awhite wall, essentially.
This is a white wall and atable.
And then he brought out thisgreat little figurine that he
had won at some, kind of likeit's not a contest, but it's
like a, it was an award show forlike mimes, for international
mime artists.
And he brought it out and hetouched in.
The way he touched it was sopowerful.

(52:39):
It was just such a beautifulmoment.
And so most of the time you needmore within the frame to tell a
story.
And sometimes the story is justthe person, and that's being
open.
That's just being open to themoment and not, like you said,
not having a preconceived idea'cause you're just gonna lock
yourself into a corner.

Oh my goodness.
I think that story right there.
I don't know how any better wayto wrap up this episode as we're
running outta time, mostphotographers feel so nervous
about getting in front ofsomebody and, displaying that
they know what they're talkingabout when it comes to their
camera and how to pose them and,and how to do all of these
things.
And over and over again you'resaying this is about the human

(53:23):
element.
We're photographing humans.
Be curious about them.
They will deliver.
And this is, something that Ihope people go back and listen
to multiple times because thatis such a, such a powerful
message.
But Brian, before I let you go,I gotta ask, where can listeners
find more about you online?
Where can they see your book?
Where can they see more of yourwork?

The best places to see more of my work would be, at
my website, which is briandobin.com.
and then for my at work projectwhere you see the whole library,
it's at work project.com.
Spelled out@workproject.com.
and there you'd see all thework, but that's really where

(54:07):
you'd see it.
I'm excited for the book to comeout.
It will be out on my wife'sbirthday on June 3rd.
Look, as much as I am excitedabout it, I'm nervous too,
right?
Because I'm, I'm putting thisout into the world.
I've been hesitant for years.
I photographed a gentleman inLondon his name is Brian, and he
said, Brian, it's time for youto put your book out into the
world.
And I took his words to gospeland I went out and, fortunately,

(54:32):
found a wonderful publisher,trope Publishing, where you can
purchase the book or an Amazon.
and, they believed in the book.
And I really am excited forpeople to see it because it's
not really just about thephotographs.
The most important thing for me,the message I wanna give, is to
the same message that was givento me by my mother, which is

(54:55):
that you can fly, you can doanything you want.
You have to just believe inyourself.
And I was given that gift.
Of people are not for manyreasons, usually fear.
Parents want their child to besafe.
They want them to be successful,but that's fear based.
The most important thing you cando is to believe in yourself try

(55:16):
things and experiment and fail.
Failing is not what we think asfailing.
Failing is another step in thejourney you find what you love.
And as a photographer, if you'renervous, slow down.
You could even say to thesubject, I'm nervous.
Be human.
You're not super human.

(55:36):
They're nervous too.
Nervous mean you care.
Not a bad thing.
Anxiety, we all have it.
It's not just you.
We all have these kind of,limits on ourselves.
We don't share enough with eachother that we have it.
So we think that we're uniqueand we think that we suck or we
think that our, what we wanna doisn't good.
It is good.
It's good for you.

(55:57):
It's good for someone.
That's what matters.

Alright, quick thank you again to Brian Dobin
for coming on the podcast andsharing everything that he did.
And hey, don't forget to checkout this show notes for the
links to Brian's book and towatch that video of him working
with his subjects.
Now it is time for this week'sphotography action plan, as in
if you implement just one thingthis week, make it be this thing

(56:23):
to move the needle forward inyour photography, and that is
connect with somebody beforetaking their photo.
Brian talked a lot about thehuman element in photography and
how it wasn't until herediscovered that, that he
rediscovered his passion forphotography.
After all, if we're notphotographing people, we're

(56:43):
photographing four people.
And as he said, people want tobe understood.
People want to be seen.
So whether you have a portraitsession this week or you just
want to go grab your spouse oryour child or your coworker, you
know, whatever it is, don'tworry about making a perfect
photo.
A golden hour with that 85millimeter lens.
Like, don't worry about that.
Just talk to them.

(57:05):
Learn something new about them.
Ask them what types of fruitsthat they like.
You know, I don't know.
But the more that you learnabout who a person is.
The easier it is for you to seethem and the more they will feel
seen and that while it's notquantifiable, you'll see it in
the photo.

(57:25):
That is when an image is morethan just the sum of its
settings.
So give that a shot.
That is it for today.
Until next time, remember, themore you shoot today, the better
of a photographer you will betomorrow.
Talk soon.

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