August 13, 2024 • 50 mins
#488 In this episode of the Beginner Photography Podcast, I chat with Karen Williams, an inspiring photo editor and photographer who shares the magic of personal projects and the importance of defining your unique visual style. Karen walks us through her journey as a photo editor and offers invaluable advice on curating a cohesive portfolio, the significance of continuous learning, and how to find your focus in photography.
THE BIG IDEAS
- Develop Your Unique Visual Style: Master one thing at a time to avoid a patchwork portfolio and define your distinct artistic voice.
- Curate a Specific Portfolio: Ensure your portfolio aligns with the language and style of your target clients; this captures their attention and showcases your suitability for their projects.
- Embrace Continuous Learning: Growth in photography requires constant education. Use resources like online courses, books, and videos to keep improving.
- Leverage Personal Projects: These can be cohesive within themselves, showcasing your versatility and potentially leading to unexpected work opportunities.
PHOTOGRAPHY ACTION PLAN
- Create a Mood Board: Gather images that inspire you and reflect the styles you are drawn to. Analyze common themes in your mood board to identify your visual style.
- Curate Your Portfolio: Select photos that highlight your strengths and are consistent with the style of your target clients. Ensure your portfolio is user-friendly, with fast loading times and no broken links.
- Engage in Personal Projects: Dedicate time each week to work on a photography project that excites you. Share these projects on your website and social media to attract potential clients.
- Join Local Photo Organizations: Attend meetups, workshops, and seminars to network and gain insights from other photographers. Participate in photo walks or local contests to build your experience and community presence.
- Practice and Develop Skills: Set aside time regularly to practice new techniques, whether it’s lighting, composition, or post-processing. Review your work critically and seek feedback from peers to continuously improve.
RESOURCES:
Check out Karen's Website - Blackvisualqueen.com
Follow Karen on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/blackvisualqueen
Sign up for your free CloudSpot Account today at www.DeliverPhotos.com
Connect with Raymond!
- Join the free Beginner Photography Podcast Community at https://beginnerphotopod.com/group
- Get your Photo Questions Answered on the show - https://beginnerphotopod.com/qa
- Grab your free camera setting cheatsheet - https://perfectcamerasettings.com/
Thanks for listening & keep shooting!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Karen Williams (00:00):
Everyone can have a camera and everyone would
take a different picture of thesame subject.
It would look so different fromdifferent perspectives.
And so that's what I mean islike, why it's so important to
develop that artistic eye foryourself, believing in that
self.
I think a lot of photographersautomatically just want to go
to, oh, all I have to do is puta filter.
No, no, no.
Because once you know who youare as an artist and how you
(00:21):
feel, how you develop, how youwant to present your work, then
you understand, okay, the reasonI'm doing this, or the reason
why I'm putting these certaincolor settings together, this is
me.
This is how I see the world andhow I'm presenting myself.
Raymond Hatfield (00:39):
Hey, welcome to the beginner photography
podcast.
I'm your host, Raymond Hatfield.
And today we're chatting withcreative visual director, Karen
Williams, about finding yourfocus in photography.
But first, the beginnerphotography podcast is brought
to you by CloudSpot.
Everything you need to build athriving photography business.
Impress your clients, deliver aprofessional experience, and
streamline your workflow all inone platform.
(01:02):
Grab your free forever accounttoday over at deliverphotos.
com and only upgrade when youand your business are ready.
As a visual creative directorand photo editor, Karen's job is
literally finding and hiring theright photographers for big
jobs.
Photographers with strong visualstyles and a unique look.
So if you're feeling stuck andyou're unsure how to find your
(01:24):
unique photographic style, thentoday's guest Karen Williams is
the right person for you.
Today she discusses theimportance of personal projects
in creating tailored portfolios,and being forever curious.
She also shares how to createcohesive work that opens up new
opportunities and shares how tocurate a specific portfolio that
resonates with that specificclient.
(01:46):
So if you want to find yourvoice in photography, this
interview with Karen Williams isfor you.
Karen, I want to know, when didyou know that photography was
going to play an important rolein your life?
Karen Williams (01:57):
Well to go back to before the important role.
I didn't know it at the time,but I think I became around age
7 the unofficial familyphotographer because my dad
literally taught me like this isthe 80s like early 90s this old
camera film and he was like allyou do is just dip dip and then
you focus like this and then youdo that and then I started
(02:19):
taking pictures.
Now again, it wasn't like oh mygod, I'm gonna be a
photographer.
No, it was just like every timewe would go somewhere family
vacations I was a photographer.
The running joke is if youlooked at our picture albums,
you would think, oh, it's afamily of three.
Cause I was taking the photo.
In fact, it wasn't like in theday, like now where people are
like, Hey, here's my phone.
Can you, Oh, okay, cool.
(02:40):
Cause everyone just knows, to dothat.
No, I would just be like, nope.
And I was very protective.
My mom would be like, Hey, can Ilike, no, only I can frame it.
And I, again, I'm not thinkingI'm going to be a photographer.
I'm thinking I'm going to be abasketball player, I'm going to
be a volleyball player.
I sucked at sports.
I was okay.
I was, like, mid.
Then I got into playing theviolin.
Then I thought I was, again, notgood.
(03:02):
I thought I was going to be ameteorologist.
I was going to be all thesedifferent things other than a
photographer.
while this is all going through,middle school and high school,
any event we went to, anything,I would take the pictures.
It wasn't until high school,literally my last kind of
quarter there, where I took ablack and white photography
class, and it was in a janitor'scloset.
And the magic of like, and Ithink because I wasn't
(03:25):
developing the film, wedeveloped the film and then we
printed the prints.
That's when I was like, Ooh,this is what I want to do.
I want to be a fine art artist.
Now again, I had no idea about,being a fine art artist.
I just knew, this is what Iwanted to do, and I wanted to go
to school for photography fromthere.
Raymond Hatfield (03:44):
What was it about that power of the print?
What was It about that wholesituation that, made you say
like, wait a second, no morebasketball, no more meteorology,
nothing like that.
This is the thing.
Karen Williams (03:55):
It was the magic of, I think, just printing of
developing my film, like, ooh,okay, look, you just, you put it
in, and then you shake up thecanisters, and then look, you
hang it out, look, you see thepicture, just seeing the magic,
that the chemicals were like, ohmy god, there's, that's the
picture I took, and then, okay,you got the contact sheets, ooh,
(04:15):
I want this one, like, pickingwhich ones you want to do, and
then the magic of, you expose onthis, special piece of paper,
you're in the lights, In thedark room and you're putting it
through the, you know, thedeveloper and then you put it in
the cleaner and then you gotinto the fixer and like, it's
just the magic of creating.
I think it was just the tactileexperience of creation of, I was
(04:38):
taking the photo.
And for a long time, it was justkind of automation in the sense
of someone else was just doingit.
But then when I did it myself,and I was like, wow, I saw it,
took it, and then I developedit, and then created, a physical
thing with it.
And that's where I was like,Ooh, I want to learn more about
that.
(04:58):
I want to do that.
Raymond Hatfield (05:00):
So how did that manifest?
Did you go to college for it orwhat was the next step?
I
Karen Williams (05:05):
break a little bit, or like a year and a half
because I had graduated early.
I did like 10 credits so I couldjust, and I was sick of school.
But then eventually I was stilllooking at photography schools
and I ended up going to a smallkind of private college called
St.
Edwards in Austin, Texas,because it was that or UT kind
of back then day.
But I was like, With UT, I fellin a trope of oh, so many
(05:30):
people, in an auditorium and I'mgoing to be lost in a sea of
people where St.
Edward's was like very small atthe time.
It's huge now, but it was verysmall.
It was like maybe seven peoplein the whole program or
something like that.
And so, I proceeded, and again,my intention was, at this time,
because I did not know anybetter, I didn't know how to
research, Google was kindasomething around, like, you
(05:53):
didn't just Google, what careerscan you have?
I was going in there, and thepremise of, I want to be a fine
art, photographer, and I thoughtit was so easy.
I know, sorry, this, thenaivete.
You know, forgive
Raymond Hatfield (06:05):
was there too, I
Karen Williams (06:06):
I just thought, Oh, I could just take a picture.
Not understanding.
This is why you go to school soyou start understanding, but I
just like, okay, after a break,I was bored and I wanted to go
back to school and I was okay,we're doing this and I'm going
to be a fine art photographerand I'm gonna sell my print for
10, 000.
Raymond Hatfield (06:22):
So easy, right?
So
Karen Williams (06:24):
Yeah.
So you don't have to show mywork in gallery.
So easy.
Yeah.
So that was kind of the nextprocess.
And then it going to school,learning more about the process,
learning about the greats like Iam forever an old school.
I still love prints.
I love seeing photographersbring in a print for portfolio.
I still love seeing the processof photography done and I feel
(06:47):
grateful because.
of the program I went toundergrad, it was still wet.
And it was literally thebeginning stages of digital.
I did a digital one and twoclasses and we were like, what,
Photoshop three at this time?
This was no cloud.
There wasn't an Adobe cloud.
This is where you bought it andthen you could own it.
And then maybe in a couple ofyears I'll upgrade if I want to
(07:08):
pay that money to, you know, thenext box.
Exactly.
But I always say I'm so gratefulthat I learned on a wet, dark
room because when I went toDinnacle, I understood the
principles of dodging andburning and color correcting,
And stuff like that to applybecause I feel like fast forward
now, a lot of photographers aretrying to get like away with,
(07:30):
oh, I just put a filter on itand not understanding why are
you putting a filter on it?
Why this aesthetic versus itjust looks cool.
We're taking an alternative,kind of process class where you
can be like, well, for thiswork, I feel like this works the
best of how I want to presentit.
And this is the reasons why.
So I always I'm grateful that Idid go and get my education to
(07:54):
understand, how to critiquework, how to speak about my work
in a different way.
Not saying you have to do it,because there's a lot of great
photographers who are selftaught, but for me, I'm a nerd.
So I needed school, and I likedthat learning all that stuff.
I just want to put it out therefor other photographers.
You do not have to go to school.
I just recommend if you take,you do a self taught, always go
(08:17):
and buy some history books tolearn the history and to learn
about critique and to learn howto speak about your work.
Because I think that is a vitalpiece of skill to learn.
Raymond Hatfield (08:29):
Obviously, so you went to school.
And I, completely agree withyou.
I've shared this before I wentto school and after going
through school, that was thequestion that I got the most,
right?
It was like, is this even worthit?
Obviously I went to film school,not school for photography, but
it was like, it's worth it forthe networking aspect, it's
worth it for a structured plan.
If you are somebody who, is aself starter and knows what it
(08:52):
is that you need, then by allmeans, you don't need a degree
in this, go for it, but if youneed a little bit more help, if
you need that structure, if youneed some guidance, I highly
recommend school.
Um, yeah.
I want to know, what happenednext, right?
You went to school, you want tobecome a fine art photographer.
what happened?
Because today, the path, changedat some point.
I want to know how you got towhere you are today.
Karen Williams (09:12):
After I graduated with my BFA, I still
no idea what I was going to do,because what was taught really
in school, or what you saw, waseither you were going to be a
photographer, or a fine artphotographer.
I suck at studio.
I suck at lighting.
Like, I knew I probably wasn'tgoing to be a good photographer.
Okay.
I just knew, but I absorbed theinformation.
(09:33):
I knew what a good image was.
sell that street photographythat was my jam and I always
liked it.
It was like a Walker Evans andme, a Lee Freelander and me, the
Gordon Parks and me, where Ijust loved the 35 mil because it
was so small.
Like I hate it four by five.
I love the large prints you get.
I love eight by 10.
I just don't like carrying thatthing and it made you have to
(09:54):
slow down and I didn't.
I just wanted to be able to pickup my camera document and
succeed.
But after I graduated, I stillkind of didn't know because it
was like, okay, am I going to bea photographer then?
Or am I working in a studio?
So for me, the only viable pathI saw was teaching.
It's like, if I'm going to be ateacher, And if I'm going to be
in since I started school alittle later than usual, and I
(10:16):
want to kind of speed up theeducational kind of process.
And I was like, okay, if I'mgoing to teach, I want to teach
college level.
Usually you need an MFA.
So I went straight to gradschool.
Again, you don't have to go tograd school.
This was just kind of like, whatmy thinking was back in the day,
because I didn't know any otheroptions of how I got to where I
am today.
So my thing was okay.
(10:37):
Okay.
I'll be all in that once becauseI know if I wouldn't have went
to grad school when I did, if Iwould have went straight into
the workforce, I would not havegone to grad school.
And I think I don't regret anydecision I've made because it's
got me where I need to be.
But I just jumped to gradschool.
Again, with grad school, youjust learn more of the
technique.
You're just continuing to honeyour craft.
(10:59):
it was a great community.
I went to Scat Savannah Collegechart design, both the Savannah
and Atlanta campuses, and thatwas a great experience.
It wasn't until literally afterI graduated from SCAT with my nm
FA in 2008, I have to point thisout, 2008, this, keep that in
mind, 2008, I did, I was luckyenough to get an internship at
(11:20):
Inc.
Publishing in London, and so.
I wanted to go back to London.
I had did a study abroad in mytime and I wanted to go back to
London.
I was like, oh, I loved it.
I was like, I want to go.
I was fortunate to get it and amonth long scholarship and I
graduated and the university Istayed at.
let me stay there.
They were like, you have to be astudent.
I was like, I just graduated.
(11:40):
I had the funds because I hadleft over low money.
It was like, I have to pay thatback anyway, so let me just use
it to that.
Ink Publication introduced me tothe world of where I am now, of
being a photo editor, a photoproducer, working with
publications and eventuallybrands.
It is, I think still, a kind ofA custom publication and when I
(12:00):
was there was specifically forlike European airliners.
So those magazines you see inthe back, in your flight, that's
what they were doing mostly forthe European airlines and a few
that I think they had, United aswell.
I don't know if they still haveUnited stuff, but those were the
things they were working on.
So that's where I learned about.
Oh, okay.
So you're telling me I don'thave to be a photographer.
(12:22):
There's a world where I can workfor photographers.
I'm doing photo research.
I'm essentially just doinglogistics, helping still create
amazing images, but I don't haveto be the 1 behind the camera.
That was.
I want to be a photo editor.
It was a perfect world because Ididn't necessarily want to be a
photographer.
I always say, I couldn't do thephoto hustle of marketing
(12:43):
yourself all the time, goingthrough the freelance life.
It was like the perfect thing.
Like I like doing the logistics.
I like the production part ofit, but then I can be on set.
I can still create the imageryyou're seeing, be part of that
creation and not justnecessarily be the sole creator
behind the camera.
And so after that month I camehome, I was like, I'm going to
(13:04):
be a photo editor.
Let me start emailing people.
Okay.
Everyone's in New York.
Everyone.
Okay.
Let me start not understandinghow to get into the industry,
but I just blindly.
Okay.
Then 2008 fall happened.
And then the economy crash.
And then the bloodbath ofpublishing.
Yeah, that was the year Idecided I wanted to go into
(13:27):
publishing.
And the editorial in magazines.
And I was like, I'm gonna be aphoto editor.
After that, it was a slow,couple of years.
Where I'm working at a cupcakeplace.
I'm doing some internship at amuseum.
I'm trying to get theexperience, because back in the
day, entry level was like two tothree years experience.
(13:48):
Fortunately, I was able to thenget an internship with Austin
Monthly Magazine.
I lived in San Antonio.
So it was like an hour drive onthe 35 and so I did that drive
and I had to explain to myparents why are you doing this
for free?
And then you have to bring yourown computer.
I'm like, no, this is how theindustry work I have to and it
networking because that's how itkind of started figuring out the
industry It's who you knowgetting those references and
(14:10):
building up my portfolio to showpeople this is what I've done,
like spread wise.
Here's the shoots I've produced,or here's what I photo research,
to get that kind of socialproof.
Raymond Hatfield (14:20):
I'm just gonna say, Isn't it funny how not far
away 2008 seems, and yet howcompletely different of a world
it was, just in the world of,photography, but also, an entire
crash, at the same time, again,I've shared this story before,
it's like, that was the lasttime all the actors and the
writers went on strike.
I was also right when Igraduated from film school.
So I was like, I guess I'm notworking.
(14:42):
I don't know what to do.
And that's what prompted me topick up a camera rather than a
cinema camera, I guess.
And then get into photography.
So, I'm right there with you.
And again, it feels so long ago,but also not long ago at all.
It's so strange, but, I lovethis concept because I know that
there's a lot of peoplelistening just like you, they
love photography, they lovecreating powerful images, they
(15:03):
love seeing powerful images,they love being just around,
because there's an energy aroundpowerful photos.
But not everybody, can create atsuch a high level, the type of
photography that is, I don'teven know how to say this the
technical ability that isrequired to bring out that
emotion in people.
And I think what's sad is thatso many people, and I'll be
(15:25):
honest, myself included, I go toso many weddings, and I think to
myself, I could do so muchbetter than this.
And I look at a hundred otherphotographers and I'm like,
they're way better photographersthan me.
But I think the problem comeswhen new photographers say to
themselves.
Well, I guess that's it.
I guess if I can't achieve thislevel, what am I even doing
here?
And then they just completelygive up on photography
(15:46):
altogether.
But I love how you're sharingthat there's other paths in
photography that don'tnecessarily require you to be
the one taking the photos.
So for those listening right nowwho are like, wait a second,
tell me more about this.
Can you tell me more about whatis the job of a photo editor
What is the job that you'rehired to do?
Because again, many newphotographers may think that
(16:07):
it's just, you're the one whodoes all the work in the light
room, but I know that that's notthe case.
So can you share a little bitmore about what's involved?
Karen Williams (16:15):
Of course.
It's like a lot of things.
When I talk about photo editor,it is, thrown around two
different ways.
It is thrown away as a photoeditor, as like a photo
retoucher, because some peoplewill just use that term because
it technically they are editingthe photo.
So that makes sense.
But in, I would say photo editorin terms of like how I'm about
to describe it, it's used morein the publication editorial
(16:38):
realm, where in brands and maybeadvertising, it might be like
called photo art director orsomething like that, or maybe a
photo producer.
And even that goes intodifferent kinds of words where
you could be a photo producerand still be doing art direction
at the same time or be straightlogistical, and being a photo
editor like at a publication.
So this is kind of the context.
I'm speaking it into, is you'rea lot of things, and when I get
(17:01):
into it, I'll let you know, butbasically you are helping and it
depends you can be in a team offive people or more, or you
could be a photo editor one.
I've been in both situations,but basically you are helping to
bring to life the visuals of amagazine, whether that is
through photo research oflooking through stock sites or
(17:22):
archives, say, we were doing, aretrospective of all the
presidents in the world, you'renot going to find that on iStock
or Getty or whatever.
That's what a photo researcher.
that's a tail sign of a goodphoto researcher where you're
going into the archives oryou're going into, oh, I know
this photographer has in theircollection, or they've shot this
person and seeing how much theywant it to license it for.
(17:44):
You're doing photo production.
So you're handed, hey, we'regoing to shoot the mayor, or
we're going to shoot this policeofficer, or we're going to shoot
this business owner.
Okay.
First, you're going to decidingkind of like collaborating with
the art director, creativedirector, the writer, probably.
And then the editor in chief oflike, here's the direction and
vibe we want to go with.
(18:04):
Maybe it's like in studio.
Maybe it's on location.
This is the kind of creative,direction we want to go, getting
buy in, getting a consensus, andthen finding the right
photographer or artist.
Maybe it's a photo illustration,so maybe you're working with
design of they're working on theillo part, and then you're
tasked with the photo part, oryou could be doing both,
depending on the circumstances.
(18:25):
And then again, photoproduction, you're setting up
the photoshoot, you're reachingout to the subjects, or
whatever, you are, okay, whatday and time are you available.
What day and time thephotographer, making sure
schedules matching, puttingtogether the Photoshop list.
Sometimes you're going on set,the location to make sure, you
know, your photo art directingand making sure everything is
like going smoothly, or maybeyou're remotely doing it.
(18:47):
Maybe you're not.
And you're like making sureyou're communicating with the
photographer throughout the day,throughout the shoot.
So if something comes up, you'reable to troubleshoot it.
Always being alert, getting thehigh resin, making the
selections.
If photo research, retouching isinvolved, you're helping to
facilitate that, making surecredits, the proper credits, how
(19:08):
it's laid out, there's so manylittle things and I would say
part time lawyer and making surethat you're like, Hey, where did
that image come from?
Google.
That's fine.
But I think the Mona Lisa isgoing to be like, no, you can't
use this.
right here, without permission.
We may be sued.
let me go and see if I can finda start or license it so we know
(19:28):
we are covered.
And then I always say the bonustherapist, because sometimes you
have to deal with meltdowns andstuff.
And basically, I always say teamphoto for life.
One of the hearts and souls oflike, I think a department
because there's so much we haveto do in capital.
This is just a little piece ofwhat I'm telling you what you
have to do with there's just somuch nuances
Raymond Hatfield (19:49):
There's a lot.
It sounds like a whole lot.
Karen Williams (19:51):
When photographers from the other
side want to come to this side Ialways say it is a different
game.
This is not a photography jobsometimes you do shoot
photography if it depends ifit's probably like a smaller
publication or maybe a newspaperwhere you're kind of doing both,
but for most times you arebehind the desk.
I always say you either lovethis job or you hate this job,
(20:12):
because it's a lot of justsitting around the desk and I
think the glamour for me.
Of why I went to be like, Oh,I'm going to travel.
I'm going to be able to do inthese fancy shoes, go to Paris,
go.
And then I started traveling forshoots and started.
No, you're still working eighthour days and you're on the
shoot, but also you still haveto do your job.
Like you still got to do that ontop of that.
(20:33):
So that turns into like 16 hourdays of having to stay on top of
other work, but then also be onset.
I always say the glamour goesaway once you go to your one
intense shoot and you're like,yeah, maybe I saw the eye for
Tyra while we were passing by,but you're not going to have
time to, sightsee and all thatstuff.
But for me, I love it.
(20:55):
I just love that hustle andgrind.
It could be the worst shoot gonewrong, but I'm like, okay, let's
do it again.
We're going to do it better thistime, right?
It's like, one of those things,you either love it or you hate
it.
Raymond Hatfield (21:06):
Where does that come from?
Why do you love the chaos?
Karen Williams (21:08):
I come from two military parents.
I'm an early riser.
I love structure, I lovedissonance, even though it's
like a chaotic world.
And again, it's good and bad,because it's like, you shouldn't
want to be work yourself to thebone and then almost be to burn
out, which I've been in burnoutlike a couple of times in my
life.
And it's like the nature of thebeast of just being in this
industry of kind of like, okay,we just get it done.
(21:30):
You just get it done.
But again, like I said.
either love or hate it, and forme, I just love it.
I think at the end of the day, Iget the magazine, or the
publication, or you see it on abillboard, and you're like, I
helped create that.
That's a photographer, you seesomething the first time you
create it, and it's on abillboard, or like at a,
feature, or the cover, andyou're like, It was worth it.
(21:51):
it's hard to explain becauseit's just like the rush of
getting that shot.
When you know you had the shot,you're like, this is a shot and
it's just worth it.
it's a hard feeling to describe,but for me, that's why I come
more and more and more.
Again, there's toxicity, kind ofeverywhere you go, but it's just
like how you handle it.
And for me it's like at the endof the day, if I'm loving what
(22:14):
I'm doing, the team I'm workingwith, the other stuff kind of
just prefers away.
Mm-Hmm.
Raymond Hatfield (22:20):
Yeah.
can relate to that.
but I wanna know, so One of themain jobs here is that when you
get a brief, when you know whatis needed, you have to go out
and get it done.
And sometimes that involveshiring a photographer to capture
the images.
So you see not only a lot ofphotographers, but you see a ton
of photographers work.
So I guess the first question isin a situation where you get
(22:43):
some sort of brief or you needcreative, delivered, How do you
start?
Do you start looking at a bunchof portfolios?
Do photographers come to you?
Do you already know thephotographers you want to work
with, who you want to work with?
How does that process work?
Karen Williams (23:09):
And so I would just start gathering first, kind
of like just searching, Who arelike favorite photographers of
mine?
Who are photographers I want towork with?
Then, it's like a layer of,getting recommendation from
other photo editors andproducers.
Who do you recommend?
And then also meetingphotographers as well.
So it's this never ending ofcollecting of kind of resources
(23:31):
in a sense of my Rolodex andknowing that, oh, I love this
photographer.
Not right for the job, but whenI get a job where I'm like, okay
that's gonna be the rightcreative brief for that bill.
I'm gonna reach out to thatperson.
When I'm always trying to puttogether a list of photographers
I want to work with, it's alwayslike the first is matching the
brief.
(23:52):
And I sometimes have a wild cardin there where it's kind of the
opposite because I will alsopitch like, Hey, I was kind of
thinking, maybe trying somethinglike this, right.
99%, it'd be no, but you knowwhat I mean?
But for me, it's a mixture ofall those kinds of things of
like past bookmarks that Imight've been like, Hey, I want
to work with this person to, Oh,I just met this person in a
(24:13):
portfolio view.
Ooh, I would love to start, workwith them and referrals.
just depends on the brief.
Mm hmm.
Raymond Hatfield (24:19):
Yeah.
And that makes sense.
That was a great answer.
How, do you determine, who isright for the job?
Because, I'm trying to get inthe head of the listeners right
now who are thinking, Ooh, maybeI'd like to travel to Paris and
like do this thing.
How do I get here?
So I guess, let me frame thisquestion here.
Are photographers trying to,show you work that they think
(24:39):
will work for a specific briefor are they even involved at
this point before you arereaching out to photographers?
And if so, what are you lookingfor in their work?
Karen Williams (24:50):
First, reaching out comes after, a discussion
with the team.
So first, I will get the brief.
And then I'm discussing with theteam members who's involved,
right?
And then we're coming to aconsensus.
And I want to put out there,usually we're not the sole
decision makers as photoeditors, we're working in a team
and depending on like editorialmore, each side is
collaborative, but sometimes inbrands, it's like the creative
(25:13):
department is kind of like aninternal marketing team.
Agency kind of marketing.
So here's a team and here's ourbudget.
So they're kind of like, say, welean to this will be, favored
because, hey, they are puttingin the funds to fund this.
Right?
Nothing, but they lean on ourexpertise.
So we come to a consensus andthen I'm looking at for
(25:34):
photographers portfolios thatare curated to this.
And I want to put out tophotographers why having a great
curated portfolio that isspeaking the language to the
brands and publications you wantto work with is so important.
Raymond Hatfield (25:48):
How do we do that?
Karen Williams (25:49):
So I always say when you're looking at your
portfolio first, you have tokind of figure out, you know who
you are as a photographerbecause we do not want copycats.
We're always looking for aphotographer that has a unique
guy we're never trying to lookfor a photographer who shoot the
same because each creative briefis different one might be like
we want it all in studio andhigh key art, high key light, or
(26:12):
the next one might be, okay,we're going outside on a hike
and we want natural light, andthat's two different kind of
masquerades.
And so.
I see a lot of tutorials wherephotographers are trying to play
it safe and be generalist, andthose kind of go at the bottom
of the list because I'm lookingfor something highly specific
usually most of the time.
And I want to see a mastery.
(26:33):
I want to see a carefullycurated portfolio that I can
show to different people andkeep in mind these different
people on the team may not bevisually in depth, as me where I
could see the potential, maybe,and there may be like a couple
of it, but I see enough that I'mlike, I feel confident that
attire, but someone might beturned off, no, I don't get it.
(26:55):
And it's just a quick yes or no.
first, know who you are as aphotographer.
Define your own visual style.
What makes you you.
I always say it's better thatpeople are reaching out to you
because they like your vibe.
And they're like, we want towork with you.
And we want what you do appliedto whatever we want you to
shoot.
You know, knowing that youalways you're going to work
(27:15):
within there's, seeing a back socreatives, and stuff like that,
but they're not hiring you to belike, oh, we like your work now.
180 do this.
Raymond Hatfield (27:24):
Sure, sure,
Karen Williams (27:26):
Then curate it to that language.
So if you want to shoot high inluxury, I'm working for
Tiffany's.
I'm going to be looking for highend luxury in that portfolio.
It can't be having no brokenlinks.
Well, just in general, no brokenlinks.
It needs to load fast.
Golden rules of website.
No broken links.
Needs to load fast.
(27:47):
appropriately with awesomeimages.
Need to know a location andcontact email.
You can have a form in an emailbut don't have a form because we
like to feel like we're reachingout to real people Sorry and
back to the question, but that'swhat i'm always looking for
first it's like that portfolio.
I want to feel confident thatyou know how to do What you're
(28:09):
showing me inside now, so ifsomething goes wrong on set A to
C?
Okay.
B.
Okay, then it works.
C.
If I'm seeing a bunch of highpocketing, kind of like,
different types of looks, noconsistency of overall visual
look, that's kind of a pass forme.
I should know kind of 95 percentwhat I'm going to get, knowing
(28:30):
there's going to be change.
Raymond Hatfield (28:32):
Of course, that's, I think something very
difficult for new photographersto understand.
So I'm hoping, I can ask aquestion here.
That's going to help wrap ourminds around this, which is,
many photographers today, justmyself included, I might shoot a
portrait of my kid, my neighborsmight want some family photos.
My daughter has softball.
I'll go out there and take somephotos of that as well.
We might go on hikes, but thenalso sometimes I like to get a
(28:55):
little fancy with stuff andmaybe do some product shots.
That's a lot, right?
There's a lot of differentthings in there.
And even in, your example, youmight be looking for luxury, you
might be looking for high key.
You might be looking for justnature, like going out, how do
we show visual consistency orwhat does visual consistency
look like over a range ofdifferent images?
Karen Williams (29:14):
I love that question it's not that you have
to stick to what I mean, curatedand specific.
oh, all people and all this.
No, no, no, no.
You can shoot different types ofcontent of genres and kind of
categories.
And a lot of people do, but it'sthe visual consistency of how,
and I say it's like theaesthetic.
And a lot of people will takethat, well, they just all put
this filter on it.
(29:34):
This is why I always advisephotographers look at key
players in the genre and thework you want to be producing
that they are getting the workthat you ultimately want to be
getting to look and look at howthey are positioning themselves.
And I do this all the time whenI work with photographers or
when I put fully loose.
I'll show examples, and again,These are not to compare to like
(29:56):
to yourself like oh my godThere's no no no this just give
you an idea of look at thisperson Look at how visually how
they're shooting fashion Ialways give it one example this
photographer and this personshoots fashion, but because of
her skin It's like kind ofvisual consistency of how she
shoots that.
She carries that over in how sheshoots travel, how she shoots
(30:17):
events, how she shoots product,and she gets hired for that.
hard to explain because it'slike kind of a visual thing.
You have to look, but that's whyI always tell photographers,
look at other photographers andyou'll, the photographers you
see getting these work from likethese top brands and top
publications, they all have avibe.
One might be, it's like a softnatural feel another might be
(30:39):
like, this is obviously, mything is gels kind of thing and
it's applied to they havedeveloped and this is kind of
tandem hand in hand of developtheir own visual in a sense of
this is how I see it.
Myself as an artist sees theworld, and I think newer
photographers sometimes fall inthe trap where I have to do
(31:02):
everything.
So I have to kind of makeeverything look the same.
And it's no, the most importantthing as a photographer and why
people look to your work is theywant to see how you look at the
world.
I look at the world versus youlook at the world.
Definitely, at the same time, ifwe went down the same street,
This, and Adam, both of us wentdown the same street and we were
photographing.
Your photographs are probablygoing to look way different to
(31:24):
mine's because I'm going to seethe beauty of probably, I loved
shooting abandoned buildings andlike raggedy things because I
saw the beauty of the forgotten.
Where you might be like, look atthat couple sitting on the
bench, look at this couple orlook at this person right here
playing, you know what I mean?
that's what I love aboutphotography because the thing is
everyone can have a camera andeveryone would take a different
(31:45):
picture of the same subject.
It would look so different fromdifferent perspectives.
And so that's what I mean islike, why it's so important to
develop that, artistic eye foryourself, believing in that
self.
Then the visual consistency ofhow you process it.
I think a lot of photographersautomatically just want to go
to, oh, all I have to do is puta filter.
(32:07):
No, no, no.
Because once you know who youare as an artist and how you
feel, how you develop, how youwant to present your work, then
you understand, okay, the reasonI'm doing this, or the reason
why I'm putting these certaincolor settings together, this is
me.
This is how I see the world andhow I'm presenting myself.
(32:27):
Knowing that It can evolve,because that's why I say a lot
of these photographers you seeon top of the game, look at
their early work.
You will see a progression,because they're continuing to
master their craft andcontinuing to develop their eye
in a new way.
But still feels like them.
Raymond Hatfield (32:46):
Mmm.
Well, this may be kind of a hardquestion or maybe it's a real
easy question.
How do we do that for ourselves?
How do we find what our focusis?
How do we define what it is thatwe want to focus on?
If it's not necessarily subjectmatter, and there's other
options, like you said, lightingediting, how do we begin to find
our focus in photography?
Karen Williams (33:06):
I always say, do you have to do it?
So I would say, go and startlooking at visuals.
Put together a mood board.
See what you're attracted tobecause I can tell you there
will probably be a through lineon why you like these certain
images.
And then the next step is to goshoot it.
Go start photographing.
I think a lot of photographersthink, oh, I have to photograph
(33:27):
after school or after you'reself taught.
I only shoot when I'm gettinghired.
The only way you develop, it'slike that.
I forgot who said the quote of,it takes 10, 000 hours to really
develop thing.
You got to go and start shootingover 10, 000, 10, 000 photos
over and over and over again.
You will find quickly.
What you're passionate aboutbecause you'll start saying I'm
(33:49):
passionate about shooting peopleI want to get that story cuz you
know to me or I'm passionateabout still life I love being
able to control the environmentand control the elements and
coming up with my creative mindlike, okay Let me try, I'm gonna
knit the whole scene togetherand then I'm gonna place the
light, you know I mean therewill be an inner spark I believe
that will come out of you, butyou have to do and it's hard I
(34:11):
always say this is the unsexypart of it and I don't think
it's taught enough, but you haveto really sit there with
yourself and figure out andwhatever works for you, some
people like to go walks, somepeople like to journal, whatever
works for you, you got to sitdown and be like, okay, there's
a reason why I love doingphotography and really get deep
into it.
Once you've kind of figured out,then you kind of lean in to
(34:34):
that.
And again, it doesn't mean thatlet's say you have multiple
interests, it doesn't mean thatthose drop away, but you have to
focus on one thing first tomaster.
if you want to shoot weddings,you want to shoot portraits, you
want to shoot cars.
Okay, cool.
But here's the thing.
if you don't master all three ofthem, they're all going to look
mid and if one looks amazing,but the other two looks mid,
(34:55):
that's going to bring down theamazing portfolio because people
can't trust you.
So you have to master kind ofone thing at a time.
And then once you say you masterportrait, okay, you want to add
travel to it.
So then from your portrait andhow you've developed your visual
eye and you know, your artistry,how do you apply that?
What you're doing to portraits?
To travel photography.
(35:17):
How do you apply it to stilllife?
You're not reinventing the wheelbecause that's why it's so,
important to first know yourvisual eye and know how you
think, and then you apply thatto these other genres.
And that's what makes the wholething consistent.
It doesn't feel hodgepodgey.
What I run into, I'll be like,this is amazing, you know,
portrait, portfolio.
(35:38):
This is your strong suit.
And then I get to still life andI get the food and then I'm
like,
Raymond Hatfield (35:44):
What's
Karen Williams (35:44):
we have not mastered.
Again, food photography is adifferent beast than portraits,
then fashion that, you know whatI mean?
There's different skill sets.
So are you committed to learningthat to be the best that you can
be in those different genres?
Raymond Hatfield (35:59):
Yeah, that's hard.
That's a hard thing to do,right?
and kind of goes back to anotherreason why I always suggest
always continue to education,but maybe school is the right
choice.
if you hear that and you thinkto yourself, Okay, master it.
I get that.
But what exactly does that mean?
then you definitely need help.
So again, I really appreciateyou breaking that down that
(36:20):
helped me out a ton
Karen Williams (36:21):
May I add to that?
and it doesn't mean you have togo back to school.
Here's the thing for me, I takea bunch of courses.
I remember I took like lynda.
com or, those other subscriptionones.
Like I would wait until they hadsales for, it's 9.
99 and I would just load up onthat.
you know what I mean?
or go to the library and justcheck out books, read it.
YouTube, TikTok.
Now, there's like a video foreverything.
(36:43):
The thing is you have to be ableto apply it and you have to
practice it and do it.
And you have to know that you'regonna suck when you first start,
but if you keep doing it, it'sjust like when I start running
like I suck, but I keep runningand it gets easier and easier
and easier.
Right?
So this keep in mind, giveyourself grace, but there's many
different paths where you do nothave to go to school.
(37:04):
If you want to go to school.
Great.
That works for you.
Perfect.
But there's so many differentlike online courses, that's
cheaper or free YouTube videos.
You just have to take, be ableto be a self starter and go and
start doing it and practicing itbecause I always tell
photographers, that is the onlyway you're going to grow and
master in a sense you gotta do.
Raymond Hatfield (37:23):
Yeah, you gotta do, you gotta do.
I end every, episode of thepodcast with, the more you shoot
today, the better of aphotographer that you'll be
tomorrow.
Because, it's not necessarilythe camera gear that you got.
it is literally just getting outthere and doing it.
Like you said, it's the 10, 000photos.
you gotta do it.
So, I want to know now weunderstand, what the photo
editor is.
We understand what a photoeditor is looking for.
(37:44):
We understand a little bit abouthow to find our focus.
so let's say that we've gone outand we've shot, say our 10, 000
photos, and now we have acollection of images that we're
happy with that we like that areuniquely us somebody who has
seen a lot of portfolios, how dowe start to build a portfolio
that is going to stand out whenwe give it to somebody?
Karen Williams (38:05):
So I always say my suggestion to people because
you know again it took me yearsto be a great editor.
So when I started I sucked I waslike, these all look good People
come to me and like, no, Karen,why are you picking the ones
with the people's eyes closed?
So let me know and let you knowI
Raymond Hatfield (38:19):
You weren't.
You weren't picking photos of
Karen Williams (38:21):
so, you know, I mean maybe not but not thinking
about Oh, do you see how awkwardor not being able to see certain
things, right?
It took years to kind of likehone in where now I can look at
a photo and make sure i'mscanning it clearly but I always
tell, photographers, once youkind of know, first, again,
circle back to the brands youwant to be looking at, one trend
(38:43):
to book or publication you wantto book, visually see what's out
there, what kind of yourcompetition of the kind of shots
they have there, then you'regoing to go into your own work.
First, I always say go withfirst pass of, and I always say,
ask this question, is thisphoto, gonna serve me now to get
the jobs I want because this issometimes you could be like,
these are all my favorites andtrust me, I was one of those in
school where how dare you tellme my 27 photos too much for
(39:06):
this portfolio.
No, all of them are needed.
Sorry.
Bye.
Like, so I feel you, I tell youlike again, and when I edit, I
always tell the grapher theseare not my babies.
I'm not attached, so I'll killyour darlings.
I'm like, I'm a cutthroat.
I'm like, Nope, nope, nope,nope.
This is why I feel like it'sbest.
So sometimes, when you're kindof wafer back and forth, I would
say first just ask you aquestion.
(39:27):
is this photo serving you?
to get the job you ultimatelywant to get.
If it's a yes, keep.
If it's a no, it doesn't meanthis photo goes away forever.
You can put it on socials, puton a blog, or if you desperately
need to see it on a website,make another website for
yourself that you only see foryourself and just put it on
there.
And then you can look at itevery day.
Okay, once you've kind of calledthat down and I always say where
(39:51):
the kind of general format I seefor websites and again, it's
however you want.
I see Websites where people wantto be super fancy And some that
are straight just a tumblr pageIt just depends on your artistic
vision and how you express yourwork Usually but template the
format you see is like anoverview and then you see I
always say You Then have the,diminished turns of clicks, like
(40:12):
what's the first thing is theone you want to get hired for
and like kind of the genre andthen you go from there and there
to contact.
So I'm just going to use anexample.
Overview should be just a hit,quit.
This is the advertiser whereyou're like, people are like,
Ooh, this is amazing.
These are A images that canstand by themselves.
They don't need a context ofanother image around it.
(40:36):
These are basically, I wouldsay, billboard images or covers.
Think of it like that where youhave to sell something before
someone enters, flips over themagazine or wants to Google the
brand because they love thatimage so much.
So think of it like that andtrust me, it's not as many as
you think.
Raymond Hatfield (40:53):
Yeah.
Karen Williams (40:54):
No one makes, like all these A things, because
you do stories, right?
You do a fashion story, andyou're telling a whole, story,
but not all those images arecover worthy, in a sense, you
know?
And I'm not saying they can't,but you know, there's a reason
why, that image was chosen asthe cover.
So it's Think of your overviewas these are my cover images.
These get people excited to wantto click more and stay on your
(41:17):
site.
So that's what you have tothink.
You're curating to speak thelanguage to the brands and
publications or the kind of workthat you want to attract to
yourself and people to be oohingon.
about Then the second time,let's say, I want to shoot more
celebrity portraits orportraits.
And here's the thing, if youwant to shoot celebrities, And
you don't have that in yourportfolio first to start off
(41:38):
with kick ass portraits Okay toget the attention and start
getting work to start kind ofbuilding yourself up to that But
you will be like, okay portraitsand then maybe you're having
that Let's say I shoot somestill life and it's awesome.
I always say how many clicksDoes it take to get to where you
want people to go to?
And where do you want them to gofirst?
because of TikTok, we have anattention span of what, seven,
(42:00):
five, seven seconds?
So kind of think, so think aboutthat when you're kind of
curating your, portfolio.
First, you want to be speakingthe language of the kind of work
to attract the companies youwant to be getting work for.
And then making sure that thephotos, are like bangers.
I'm like in the lane of less ismore.
Don't put everything in thekitchen sink because you can
(42:21):
have what I see ruin portfoliosthe most.
I'll see Oh, this is amazing.
Amazing.
Like what the hell is thisimage?
Raymond Hatfield (42:28):
Yeah,
Karen Williams (42:29):
that image?
And then you're starting to makeme question, you do this?
you're having like hodgepodgekind of things where it's now
throwing me into question, canyou deliver?
So that's why I always say it'slike, make sure, not saying
here's the thing, portfolio willget you in, but what always will
keep you in the circle kind oflike, or people recommend you is
(42:50):
how you deliver.
So don't be putting things, ifyou don't feel 100 percent
confident, I should be able topick anything from your site.
And be like, okay, I want a babyof that, and you know how to do
it.
Like, I literally just tell you,I want a baby of this.
Like, I like this lighting here,I like this background here.
I want a baby of that.
And do not put anything you donot want to be hired for.
(43:11):
I have had that so many timeswhere I will pick the image, I
really love the picture, andthey're like, oh, I didn't like
it.
But I just put it up therebecause people
Raymond Hatfield (43:19):
Really?
Even at like, a highprofessional level?
Wow.
That seems like such a newphotographer thing because it's
so like, you typically think,don't have enough in my
portfolio, I need to just addsomething there.
But even at such a high level?
Karen Williams (43:32):
I would be like, no, do not put anything you do
not want to be hired for becauseyou will be hired for that.
Cause I've done it before whereI reach out to a photographer
and it's like, Oh, we like this.
And they're like, Oh, I don'treally like it.
I like the image kind of, but Idon't really, I don't want to do
that.
Raymond Hatfield (43:45):
Wow.
Yeah.
Karen Williams (43:46):
I've had that.
So I have to tell people like,that's why I say you can have
favorite photos, maybe put inyour personal projects.
here's the thing, if there'ssomething that you really love,
but doesn't really fit the vibeof what you're trying to sell
yourself as, in a sense,personal projects the ticket
because personal projects can bewhatever you want.
Now, remember, again, you stillwant it to feel cohesive in a
(44:08):
sense, not like cohesive to thething, but the personal projects
should feel cohesive withinitself.
So it might be like, I'm a highend celebrity portrait
photographer, but here's what Idid when I went to the studio.
Trip to Haiti or something oryou know to me or I went to
Paris and I documented tourfunds Right and that again
personal projects can get youother work because I've hired
(44:30):
photographers based on theirpersonal projects before so it's
like oh and we look, say I'msports illustrator or something
I'm like, oh we really likedyour work that you did with the
tour friends Would you like todo something like that again?
Mm-Hmm?
Raymond Hatfield (44:43):
Yeah, I had Brad Mangin on the podcast, a
while ago who he was like one ofthe first photographers to
document MLB just with Instagramand he got a ton of work because
of that.
And it was just a personalproject.
He wasn't like selling thesephotos or anything.
So, that's a great.
And I'm glad to hear that, it,wasn't just a one off thing and
that it happens in more casesthan that.
So, Karen, I know that peopleare thinking of themselves right
(45:05):
now.
This is wonderful, but Idefinitely don't want to get to
the point to where I put in allthis work and eventually build a
garbage portfolio.
So, as we end our conversationhere, can you let us know where
can we find out more about youonline?
Can we find more information onhow to go deeper into our focus,
get more into the business sideof a commercial photography here
and, build a awesome portfolio.
Karen Williams (45:27):
And so for me, you can find
me@blackvisualqueen.com and thenall my socials is Black Visual
Queen and I daily on LinkedInand Instagram will.
tips and, you know, nuggets, butother resources though, that I
always point photographers tois, this is how I learned about
being a photo editor actually isyou're not following like a
(45:48):
photo editor.
com.
So Rob, I'm a former like photodirector of I believe outside
magazine.
he has a website and a,Instagram.
I say that's like 100 percent hefirst of all have tabs for like
legal terms.
He posts estimates To give youlike clear, real estimates from
real jobs to show you hey, thisis how people are billing This
(46:11):
is what people are putting inthem He also does these
anonymous surveys with realcommercial photographers and
asking them questions Theyanswer whatever they want to
answer, but they'll give youlike real time rates they're,
pros and cons, rule advice fromworking photographers in the
game to give you insight andwisdom.
So I 100 percent recommend him.
He's the one why I actuallylearned kind of what a photo
(46:34):
editor does because I just wouldfollow him and be like, okay,
what are you doing?
And how do you break in?
Another source is also awonderful machine.
They have such a great detailedblog and that's another place
where you can go and reach outto their services if you ever
need help, putting together anestimate or anything, that's
another place.
ask a rep also on, Instagram.
(46:54):
she's kind of a hybrid agentwhere, she gives daily advice to
photographers about pitchingportfolios, estimates and stuff
like that.
So I would say those are kind ofmy top kind of three to get more
resources and also your locallike photo, you know, chat,
organizations, to reach out andthey usually have a ton of
information.
Raymond Hatfield (47:14):
All right, let's go ahead and recap what we
have learned today.
One, utilize personal projectsto showcase that unique work.
Personal projects will allow youto explore themes and styles
that may not fit your, currentstyle, but can still showcase
your versatility and yourcreativity.
These projects honestly can leadto new opportunities and help
you to stand out.
(47:35):
So step one, identify maybe asubject or a theme that you're
passionate about and just starta personal project.
Next, curate a tailoredportfolio just for clients.
So a well curated portfolio.
It should speak the language ofyour target client, right?
It should showcase yourstrongest work that aligns with
(47:55):
your client's needs as well.
So, build yourself a portfolioand then regularly update that
portfolio to ensure that itmatches the type of job that you
want to attract.
And also be sure to remove anyimages that maybe you're not 100
percent confident aboutdelivering, just so that you can
avoid any sort of, booking a jobthat maybe isn't the right
opportunity.
(48:16):
for you.
And lastly, just master oneskill at a time.
If you want to develop a uniquephotographic style, that
requires focused effort andcontinuous practice.
So choose one area to master,such as lighting or a particular
editing style or shooting style,and dedicate a substantial
amount of time to practicing andrefining just that.
(48:39):
That is it for today.
Until next week, remember themore that you shoot today, the
better of a photographer youwill be tomorrow.
Talk soon.
Everyone can have a camera and everyone would
take a different picture of thesame subject.
It would look so different fromdifferent perspectives.
And so that's what I mean islike, why it's so important to
develop that artistic eye foryourself, believing in that
self.
I think a lot of photographersautomatically just want to go
to, oh, all I have to do is puta filter.
No, no, no.
Because once you know who youare as an artist and how you
(00:21):
feel, how you develop, how youwant to present your work, then
you understand, okay, the reasonI'm doing this, or the reason
why I'm putting these certaincolor settings together, this is
me.
This is how I see the world andhow I'm presenting myself.
Raymond Hatfield (00:39):
Hey, welcome to the beginner photography
podcast.
I'm your host, Raymond Hatfield.
And today we're chatting withcreative visual director, Karen
Williams, about finding yourfocus in photography.
But first, the beginnerphotography podcast is brought
to you by CloudSpot.
Everything you need to build athriving photography business.
Impress your clients, deliver aprofessional experience, and
streamline your workflow all inone platform.
(01:02):
Grab your free forever accounttoday over at deliverphotos.
com and only upgrade when youand your business are ready.
As a visual creative directorand photo editor, Karen's job is
literally finding and hiring theright photographers for big
jobs.
Photographers with strong visualstyles and a unique look.
So if you're feeling stuck andyou're unsure how to find your
(01:24):
unique photographic style, thentoday's guest Karen Williams is
the right person for you.
Today she discusses theimportance of personal projects
in creating tailored portfolios,and being forever curious.
She also shares how to createcohesive work that opens up new
opportunities and shares how tocurate a specific portfolio that
resonates with that specificclient.
(01:46):
So if you want to find yourvoice in photography, this
interview with Karen Williams isfor you.
Karen, I want to know, when didyou know that photography was
going to play an important rolein your life?
Karen Williams (01:57):
Well to go back to before the important role.
I didn't know it at the time,but I think I became around age
7 the unofficial familyphotographer because my dad
literally taught me like this isthe 80s like early 90s this old
camera film and he was like allyou do is just dip dip and then
you focus like this and then youdo that and then I started
(02:19):
taking pictures.
Now again, it wasn't like oh mygod, I'm gonna be a
photographer.
No, it was just like every timewe would go somewhere family
vacations I was a photographer.
The running joke is if youlooked at our picture albums,
you would think, oh, it's afamily of three.
Cause I was taking the photo.
In fact, it wasn't like in theday, like now where people are
like, Hey, here's my phone.
Can you, Oh, okay, cool.
(02:40):
Cause everyone just knows, to dothat.
No, I would just be like, nope.
And I was very protective.
My mom would be like, Hey, can Ilike, no, only I can frame it.
And I, again, I'm not thinkingI'm going to be a photographer.
I'm thinking I'm going to be abasketball player, I'm going to
be a volleyball player.
I sucked at sports.
I was okay.
I was, like, mid.
Then I got into playing theviolin.
Then I thought I was, again, notgood.
(03:02):
I thought I was going to be ameteorologist.
I was going to be all thesedifferent things other than a
photographer.
while this is all going through,middle school and high school,
any event we went to, anything,I would take the pictures.
It wasn't until high school,literally my last kind of
quarter there, where I took ablack and white photography
class, and it was in a janitor'scloset.
And the magic of like, and Ithink because I wasn't
(03:25):
developing the film, wedeveloped the film and then we
printed the prints.
That's when I was like, Ooh,this is what I want to do.
I want to be a fine art artist.
Now again, I had no idea about,being a fine art artist.
I just knew, this is what Iwanted to do, and I wanted to go
to school for photography fromthere.
Raymond Hatfield (03:44):
What was it about that power of the print?
What was It about that wholesituation that, made you say
like, wait a second, no morebasketball, no more meteorology,
nothing like that.
This is the thing.
Karen Williams (03:55):
It was the magic of, I think, just printing of
developing my film, like, ooh,okay, look, you just, you put it
in, and then you shake up thecanisters, and then look, you
hang it out, look, you see thepicture, just seeing the magic,
that the chemicals were like, ohmy god, there's, that's the
picture I took, and then, okay,you got the contact sheets, ooh,
(04:15):
I want this one, like, pickingwhich ones you want to do, and
then the magic of, you expose onthis, special piece of paper,
you're in the lights, In thedark room and you're putting it
through the, you know, thedeveloper and then you put it in
the cleaner and then you gotinto the fixer and like, it's
just the magic of creating.
I think it was just the tactileexperience of creation of, I was
(04:38):
taking the photo.
And for a long time, it was justkind of automation in the sense
of someone else was just doingit.
But then when I did it myself,and I was like, wow, I saw it,
took it, and then I developedit, and then created, a physical
thing with it.
And that's where I was like,Ooh, I want to learn more about
that.
(04:58):
I want to do that.
Raymond Hatfield (05:00):
So how did that manifest?
Did you go to college for it orwhat was the next step?
I
Karen Williams (05:05):
break a little bit, or like a year and a half
because I had graduated early.
I did like 10 credits so I couldjust, and I was sick of school.
But then eventually I was stilllooking at photography schools
and I ended up going to a smallkind of private college called
St.
Edwards in Austin, Texas,because it was that or UT kind
of back then day.
But I was like, With UT, I fellin a trope of oh, so many
(05:30):
people, in an auditorium and I'mgoing to be lost in a sea of
people where St.
Edward's was like very small atthe time.
It's huge now, but it was verysmall.
It was like maybe seven peoplein the whole program or
something like that.
And so, I proceeded, and again,my intention was, at this time,
because I did not know anybetter, I didn't know how to
research, Google was kindasomething around, like, you
(05:53):
didn't just Google, what careerscan you have?
I was going in there, and thepremise of, I want to be a fine
art, photographer, and I thoughtit was so easy.
I know, sorry, this, thenaivete.
You know, forgive
Raymond Hatfield (06:05):
was there too, I
Karen Williams (06:06):
I just thought, Oh, I could just take a picture.
Not understanding.
This is why you go to school soyou start understanding, but I
just like, okay, after a break,I was bored and I wanted to go
back to school and I was okay,we're doing this and I'm going
to be a fine art photographerand I'm gonna sell my print for
10, 000.
Raymond Hatfield (06:22):
So easy, right?
So
Karen Williams (06:24):
Yeah.
So you don't have to show mywork in gallery.
So easy.
Yeah.
So that was kind of the nextprocess.
And then it going to school,learning more about the process,
learning about the greats like Iam forever an old school.
I still love prints.
I love seeing photographersbring in a print for portfolio.
I still love seeing the processof photography done and I feel
(06:47):
grateful because.
of the program I went toundergrad, it was still wet.
And it was literally thebeginning stages of digital.
I did a digital one and twoclasses and we were like, what,
Photoshop three at this time?
This was no cloud.
There wasn't an Adobe cloud.
This is where you bought it andthen you could own it.
And then maybe in a couple ofyears I'll upgrade if I want to
(07:08):
pay that money to, you know, thenext box.
Exactly.
But I always say I'm so gratefulthat I learned on a wet, dark
room because when I went toDinnacle, I understood the
principles of dodging andburning and color correcting,
And stuff like that to applybecause I feel like fast forward
now, a lot of photographers aretrying to get like away with,
(07:30):
oh, I just put a filter on itand not understanding why are
you putting a filter on it?
Why this aesthetic versus itjust looks cool.
We're taking an alternative,kind of process class where you
can be like, well, for thiswork, I feel like this works the
best of how I want to presentit.
And this is the reasons why.
So I always I'm grateful that Idid go and get my education to
(07:54):
understand, how to critiquework, how to speak about my work
in a different way.
Not saying you have to do it,because there's a lot of great
photographers who are selftaught, but for me, I'm a nerd.
So I needed school, and I likedthat learning all that stuff.
I just want to put it out therefor other photographers.
You do not have to go to school.
I just recommend if you take,you do a self taught, always go
(08:17):
and buy some history books tolearn the history and to learn
about critique and to learn howto speak about your work.
Because I think that is a vitalpiece of skill to learn.
Raymond Hatfield (08:29):
Obviously, so you went to school.
And I, completely agree withyou.
I've shared this before I wentto school and after going
through school, that was thequestion that I got the most,
right?
It was like, is this even worthit?
Obviously I went to film school,not school for photography, but
it was like, it's worth it forthe networking aspect, it's
worth it for a structured plan.
If you are somebody who, is aself starter and knows what it
(08:52):
is that you need, then by allmeans, you don't need a degree
in this, go for it, but if youneed a little bit more help, if
you need that structure, if youneed some guidance, I highly
recommend school.
Um, yeah.
I want to know, what happenednext, right?
You went to school, you want tobecome a fine art photographer.
what happened?
Because today, the path, changedat some point.
I want to know how you got towhere you are today.
Karen Williams (09:12):
After I graduated with my BFA, I still
no idea what I was going to do,because what was taught really
in school, or what you saw, waseither you were going to be a
photographer, or a fine artphotographer.
I suck at studio.
I suck at lighting.
Like, I knew I probably wasn'tgoing to be a good photographer.
Okay.
I just knew, but I absorbed theinformation.
(09:33):
I knew what a good image was.
sell that street photographythat was my jam and I always
liked it.
It was like a Walker Evans andme, a Lee Freelander and me, the
Gordon Parks and me, where Ijust loved the 35 mil because it
was so small.
Like I hate it four by five.
I love the large prints you get.
I love eight by 10.
I just don't like carrying thatthing and it made you have to
(09:54):
slow down and I didn't.
I just wanted to be able to pickup my camera document and
succeed.
But after I graduated, I stillkind of didn't know because it
was like, okay, am I going to bea photographer then?
Or am I working in a studio?
So for me, the only viable pathI saw was teaching.
It's like, if I'm going to be ateacher, And if I'm going to be
in since I started school alittle later than usual, and I
(10:16):
want to kind of speed up theeducational kind of process.
And I was like, okay, if I'mgoing to teach, I want to teach
college level.
Usually you need an MFA.
So I went straight to gradschool.
Again, you don't have to go tograd school.
This was just kind of like, whatmy thinking was back in the day,
because I didn't know any otheroptions of how I got to where I
am today.
So my thing was okay.
(10:37):
Okay.
I'll be all in that once becauseI know if I wouldn't have went
to grad school when I did, if Iwould have went straight into
the workforce, I would not havegone to grad school.
And I think I don't regret anydecision I've made because it's
got me where I need to be.
But I just jumped to gradschool.
Again, with grad school, youjust learn more of the
technique.
You're just continuing to honeyour craft.
(10:59):
it was a great community.
I went to Scat Savannah Collegechart design, both the Savannah
and Atlanta campuses, and thatwas a great experience.
It wasn't until literally afterI graduated from SCAT with my nm
FA in 2008, I have to point thisout, 2008, this, keep that in
mind, 2008, I did, I was luckyenough to get an internship at
(11:20):
Inc.
Publishing in London, and so.
I wanted to go back to London.
I had did a study abroad in mytime and I wanted to go back to
London.
I was like, oh, I loved it.
I was like, I want to go.
I was fortunate to get it and amonth long scholarship and I
graduated and the university Istayed at.
let me stay there.
They were like, you have to be astudent.
I was like, I just graduated.
(11:40):
I had the funds because I hadleft over low money.
It was like, I have to pay thatback anyway, so let me just use
it to that.
Ink Publication introduced me tothe world of where I am now, of
being a photo editor, a photoproducer, working with
publications and eventuallybrands.
It is, I think still, a kind ofA custom publication and when I
(12:00):
was there was specifically forlike European airliners.
So those magazines you see inthe back, in your flight, that's
what they were doing mostly forthe European airlines and a few
that I think they had, United aswell.
I don't know if they still haveUnited stuff, but those were the
things they were working on.
So that's where I learned about.
Oh, okay.
So you're telling me I don'thave to be a photographer.
(12:22):
There's a world where I can workfor photographers.
I'm doing photo research.
I'm essentially just doinglogistics, helping still create
amazing images, but I don't haveto be the 1 behind the camera.
That was.
I want to be a photo editor.
It was a perfect world because Ididn't necessarily want to be a
photographer.
I always say, I couldn't do thephoto hustle of marketing
(12:43):
yourself all the time, goingthrough the freelance life.
It was like the perfect thing.
Like I like doing the logistics.
I like the production part ofit, but then I can be on set.
I can still create the imageryyou're seeing, be part of that
creation and not justnecessarily be the sole creator
behind the camera.
And so after that month I camehome, I was like, I'm going to
(13:04):
be a photo editor.
Let me start emailing people.
Okay.
Everyone's in New York.
Everyone.
Okay.
Let me start not understandinghow to get into the industry,
but I just blindly.
Okay.
Then 2008 fall happened.
And then the economy crash.
And then the bloodbath ofpublishing.
Yeah, that was the year Idecided I wanted to go into
(13:27):
publishing.
And the editorial in magazines.
And I was like, I'm gonna be aphoto editor.
After that, it was a slow,couple of years.
Where I'm working at a cupcakeplace.
I'm doing some internship at amuseum.
I'm trying to get theexperience, because back in the
day, entry level was like two tothree years experience.
(13:48):
Fortunately, I was able to thenget an internship with Austin
Monthly Magazine.
I lived in San Antonio.
So it was like an hour drive onthe 35 and so I did that drive
and I had to explain to myparents why are you doing this
for free?
And then you have to bring yourown computer.
I'm like, no, this is how theindustry work I have to and it
networking because that's how itkind of started figuring out the
industry It's who you knowgetting those references and
(14:10):
building up my portfolio to showpeople this is what I've done,
like spread wise.
Here's the shoots I've produced,or here's what I photo research,
to get that kind of socialproof.
Raymond Hatfield (14:20):
I'm just gonna say, Isn't it funny how not far
away 2008 seems, and yet howcompletely different of a world
it was, just in the world of,photography, but also, an entire
crash, at the same time, again,I've shared this story before,
it's like, that was the lasttime all the actors and the
writers went on strike.
I was also right when Igraduated from film school.
So I was like, I guess I'm notworking.
(14:42):
I don't know what to do.
And that's what prompted me topick up a camera rather than a
cinema camera, I guess.
And then get into photography.
So, I'm right there with you.
And again, it feels so long ago,but also not long ago at all.
It's so strange, but, I lovethis concept because I know that
there's a lot of peoplelistening just like you, they
love photography, they lovecreating powerful images, they
(15:03):
love seeing powerful images,they love being just around,
because there's an energy aroundpowerful photos.
But not everybody, can create atsuch a high level, the type of
photography that is, I don'teven know how to say this the
technical ability that isrequired to bring out that
emotion in people.
And I think what's sad is thatso many people, and I'll be
(15:25):
honest, myself included, I go toso many weddings, and I think to
myself, I could do so muchbetter than this.
And I look at a hundred otherphotographers and I'm like,
they're way better photographersthan me.
But I think the problem comeswhen new photographers say to
themselves.
Well, I guess that's it.
I guess if I can't achieve thislevel, what am I even doing
here?
And then they just completelygive up on photography
(15:46):
altogether.
But I love how you're sharingthat there's other paths in
photography that don'tnecessarily require you to be
the one taking the photos.
So for those listening right nowwho are like, wait a second,
tell me more about this.
Can you tell me more about whatis the job of a photo editor
What is the job that you'rehired to do?
Because again, many newphotographers may think that
(16:07):
it's just, you're the one whodoes all the work in the light
room, but I know that that's notthe case.
So can you share a little bitmore about what's involved?
Karen Williams (16:15):
Of course.
It's like a lot of things.
When I talk about photo editor,it is, thrown around two
different ways.
It is thrown away as a photoeditor, as like a photo
retoucher, because some peoplewill just use that term because
it technically they are editingthe photo.
So that makes sense.
But in, I would say photo editorin terms of like how I'm about
to describe it, it's used morein the publication editorial
(16:38):
realm, where in brands and maybeadvertising, it might be like
called photo art director orsomething like that, or maybe a
photo producer.
And even that goes intodifferent kinds of words where
you could be a photo producerand still be doing art direction
at the same time or be straightlogistical, and being a photo
editor like at a publication.
So this is kind of the context.
I'm speaking it into, is you'rea lot of things, and when I get
(17:01):
into it, I'll let you know, butbasically you are helping and it
depends you can be in a team offive people or more, or you
could be a photo editor one.
I've been in both situations,but basically you are helping to
bring to life the visuals of amagazine, whether that is
through photo research oflooking through stock sites or
(17:22):
archives, say, we were doing, aretrospective of all the
presidents in the world, you'renot going to find that on iStock
or Getty or whatever.
That's what a photo researcher.
that's a tail sign of a goodphoto researcher where you're
going into the archives oryou're going into, oh, I know
this photographer has in theircollection, or they've shot this
person and seeing how much theywant it to license it for.
(17:44):
You're doing photo production.
So you're handed, hey, we'regoing to shoot the mayor, or
we're going to shoot this policeofficer, or we're going to shoot
this business owner.
Okay.
First, you're going to decidingkind of like collaborating with
the art director, creativedirector, the writer, probably.
And then the editor in chief oflike, here's the direction and
vibe we want to go with.
(18:04):
Maybe it's like in studio.
Maybe it's on location.
This is the kind of creative,direction we want to go, getting
buy in, getting a consensus, andthen finding the right
photographer or artist.
Maybe it's a photo illustration,so maybe you're working with
design of they're working on theillo part, and then you're
tasked with the photo part, oryou could be doing both,
depending on the circumstances.
(18:25):
And then again, photoproduction, you're setting up
the photoshoot, you're reachingout to the subjects, or
whatever, you are, okay, whatday and time are you available.
What day and time thephotographer, making sure
schedules matching, puttingtogether the Photoshop list.
Sometimes you're going on set,the location to make sure, you
know, your photo art directingand making sure everything is
like going smoothly, or maybeyou're remotely doing it.
(18:47):
Maybe you're not.
And you're like making sureyou're communicating with the
photographer throughout the day,throughout the shoot.
So if something comes up, you'reable to troubleshoot it.
Always being alert, getting thehigh resin, making the
selections.
If photo research, retouching isinvolved, you're helping to
facilitate that, making surecredits, the proper credits, how
(19:08):
it's laid out, there's so manylittle things and I would say
part time lawyer and making surethat you're like, Hey, where did
that image come from?
Google.
That's fine.
But I think the Mona Lisa isgoing to be like, no, you can't
use this.
right here, without permission.
We may be sued.
let me go and see if I can finda start or license it so we know
(19:28):
we are covered.
And then I always say the bonustherapist, because sometimes you
have to deal with meltdowns andstuff.
And basically, I always say teamphoto for life.
One of the hearts and souls oflike, I think a department
because there's so much we haveto do in capital.
This is just a little piece ofwhat I'm telling you what you
have to do with there's just somuch nuances
Raymond Hatfield (19:49):
There's a lot.
It sounds like a whole lot.
Karen Williams (19:51):
When photographers from the other
side want to come to this side Ialways say it is a different
game.
This is not a photography jobsometimes you do shoot
photography if it depends ifit's probably like a smaller
publication or maybe a newspaperwhere you're kind of doing both,
but for most times you arebehind the desk.
I always say you either lovethis job or you hate this job,
(20:12):
because it's a lot of justsitting around the desk and I
think the glamour for me.
Of why I went to be like, Oh,I'm going to travel.
I'm going to be able to do inthese fancy shoes, go to Paris,
go.
And then I started traveling forshoots and started.
No, you're still working eighthour days and you're on the
shoot, but also you still haveto do your job.
Like you still got to do that ontop of that.
(20:33):
So that turns into like 16 hourdays of having to stay on top of
other work, but then also be onset.
I always say the glamour goesaway once you go to your one
intense shoot and you're like,yeah, maybe I saw the eye for
Tyra while we were passing by,but you're not going to have
time to, sightsee and all thatstuff.
But for me, I love it.
(20:55):
I just love that hustle andgrind.
It could be the worst shoot gonewrong, but I'm like, okay, let's
do it again.
We're going to do it better thistime, right?
It's like, one of those things,you either love it or you hate
it.
Raymond Hatfield (21:06):
Where does that come from?
Why do you love the chaos?
Karen Williams (21:08):
I come from two military parents.
I'm an early riser.
I love structure, I lovedissonance, even though it's
like a chaotic world.
And again, it's good and bad,because it's like, you shouldn't
want to be work yourself to thebone and then almost be to burn
out, which I've been in burnoutlike a couple of times in my
life.
And it's like the nature of thebeast of just being in this
industry of kind of like, okay,we just get it done.
(21:30):
You just get it done.
But again, like I said.
either love or hate it, and forme, I just love it.
I think at the end of the day, Iget the magazine, or the
publication, or you see it on abillboard, and you're like, I
helped create that.
That's a photographer, you seesomething the first time you
create it, and it's on abillboard, or like at a,
feature, or the cover, andyou're like, It was worth it.
(21:51):
it's hard to explain becauseit's just like the rush of
getting that shot.
When you know you had the shot,you're like, this is a shot and
it's just worth it.
it's a hard feeling to describe,but for me, that's why I come
more and more and more.
Again, there's toxicity, kind ofeverywhere you go, but it's just
like how you handle it.
And for me it's like at the endof the day, if I'm loving what
(22:14):
I'm doing, the team I'm workingwith, the other stuff kind of
just prefers away.
Mm-Hmm.
Raymond Hatfield (22:20):
Yeah.
can relate to that.
but I wanna know, so One of themain jobs here is that when you
get a brief, when you know whatis needed, you have to go out
and get it done.
And sometimes that involveshiring a photographer to capture
the images.
So you see not only a lot ofphotographers, but you see a ton
of photographers work.
So I guess the first question isin a situation where you get
(22:43):
some sort of brief or you needcreative, delivered, How do you
start?
Do you start looking at a bunchof portfolios?
Do photographers come to you?
Do you already know thephotographers you want to work
with, who you want to work with?
How does that process work?
Karen Williams (23:09):
And so I would just start gathering first, kind
of like just searching, Who arelike favorite photographers of
mine?
Who are photographers I want towork with?
Then, it's like a layer of,getting recommendation from
other photo editors andproducers.
Who do you recommend?
And then also meetingphotographers as well.
So it's this never ending ofcollecting of kind of resources
(23:31):
in a sense of my Rolodex andknowing that, oh, I love this
photographer.
Not right for the job, but whenI get a job where I'm like, okay
that's gonna be the rightcreative brief for that bill.
I'm gonna reach out to thatperson.
When I'm always trying to puttogether a list of photographers
I want to work with, it's alwayslike the first is matching the
brief.
(23:52):
And I sometimes have a wild cardin there where it's kind of the
opposite because I will alsopitch like, Hey, I was kind of
thinking, maybe trying somethinglike this, right.
99%, it'd be no, but you knowwhat I mean?
But for me, it's a mixture ofall those kinds of things of
like past bookmarks that Imight've been like, Hey, I want
to work with this person to, Oh,I just met this person in a
(24:13):
portfolio view.
Ooh, I would love to start, workwith them and referrals.
just depends on the brief.
Mm hmm.
Raymond Hatfield (24:19):
Yeah.
And that makes sense.
That was a great answer.
How, do you determine, who isright for the job?
Because, I'm trying to get inthe head of the listeners right
now who are thinking, Ooh, maybeI'd like to travel to Paris and
like do this thing.
How do I get here?
So I guess, let me frame thisquestion here.
Are photographers trying to,show you work that they think
(24:39):
will work for a specific briefor are they even involved at
this point before you arereaching out to photographers?
And if so, what are you lookingfor in their work?
Karen Williams (24:50):
First, reaching out comes after, a discussion
with the team.
So first, I will get the brief.
And then I'm discussing with theteam members who's involved,
right?
And then we're coming to aconsensus.
And I want to put out there,usually we're not the sole
decision makers as photoeditors, we're working in a team
and depending on like editorialmore, each side is
collaborative, but sometimes inbrands, it's like the creative
(25:13):
department is kind of like aninternal marketing team.
Agency kind of marketing.
So here's a team and here's ourbudget.
So they're kind of like, say, welean to this will be, favored
because, hey, they are puttingin the funds to fund this.
Right?
Nothing, but they lean on ourexpertise.
So we come to a consensus andthen I'm looking at for
(25:34):
photographers portfolios thatare curated to this.
And I want to put out tophotographers why having a great
curated portfolio that isspeaking the language to the
brands and publications you wantto work with is so important.
Raymond Hatfield (25:48):
How do we do that?
Karen Williams (25:49):
So I always say when you're looking at your
portfolio first, you have tokind of figure out, you know who
you are as a photographerbecause we do not want copycats.
We're always looking for aphotographer that has a unique
guy we're never trying to lookfor a photographer who shoot the
same because each creative briefis different one might be like
we want it all in studio andhigh key art, high key light, or
(26:12):
the next one might be, okay,we're going outside on a hike
and we want natural light, andthat's two different kind of
masquerades.
And so.
I see a lot of tutorials wherephotographers are trying to play
it safe and be generalist, andthose kind of go at the bottom
of the list because I'm lookingfor something highly specific
usually most of the time.
And I want to see a mastery.
(26:33):
I want to see a carefullycurated portfolio that I can
show to different people andkeep in mind these different
people on the team may not bevisually in depth, as me where I
could see the potential, maybe,and there may be like a couple
of it, but I see enough that I'mlike, I feel confident that
attire, but someone might beturned off, no, I don't get it.
(26:55):
And it's just a quick yes or no.
first, know who you are as aphotographer.
Define your own visual style.
What makes you you.
I always say it's better thatpeople are reaching out to you
because they like your vibe.
And they're like, we want towork with you.
And we want what you do appliedto whatever we want you to
shoot.
You know, knowing that youalways you're going to work
(27:15):
within there's, seeing a back socreatives, and stuff like that,
but they're not hiring you to belike, oh, we like your work now.
180 do this.
Raymond Hatfield (27:24):
Sure, sure,
Karen Williams (27:26):
Then curate it to that language.
So if you want to shoot high inluxury, I'm working for
Tiffany's.
I'm going to be looking for highend luxury in that portfolio.
It can't be having no brokenlinks.
Well, just in general, no brokenlinks.
It needs to load fast.
Golden rules of website.
No broken links.
Needs to load fast.
(27:47):
appropriately with awesomeimages.
Need to know a location andcontact email.
You can have a form in an emailbut don't have a form because we
like to feel like we're reachingout to real people Sorry and
back to the question, but that'swhat i'm always looking for
first it's like that portfolio.
I want to feel confident thatyou know how to do What you're
(28:09):
showing me inside now, so ifsomething goes wrong on set A to
C?
Okay.
B.
Okay, then it works.
C.
If I'm seeing a bunch of highpocketing, kind of like,
different types of looks, noconsistency of overall visual
look, that's kind of a pass forme.
I should know kind of 95 percentwhat I'm going to get, knowing
(28:30):
there's going to be change.
Raymond Hatfield (28:32):
Of course, that's, I think something very
difficult for new photographersto understand.
So I'm hoping, I can ask aquestion here.
That's going to help wrap ourminds around this, which is,
many photographers today, justmyself included, I might shoot a
portrait of my kid, my neighborsmight want some family photos.
My daughter has softball.
I'll go out there and take somephotos of that as well.
We might go on hikes, but thenalso sometimes I like to get a
(28:55):
little fancy with stuff andmaybe do some product shots.
That's a lot, right?
There's a lot of differentthings in there.
And even in, your example, youmight be looking for luxury, you
might be looking for high key.
You might be looking for justnature, like going out, how do
we show visual consistency orwhat does visual consistency
look like over a range ofdifferent images?
Karen Williams (29:14):
I love that question it's not that you have
to stick to what I mean, curatedand specific.
oh, all people and all this.
No, no, no, no.
You can shoot different types ofcontent of genres and kind of
categories.
And a lot of people do, but it'sthe visual consistency of how,
and I say it's like theaesthetic.
And a lot of people will takethat, well, they just all put
this filter on it.
(29:34):
This is why I always advisephotographers look at key
players in the genre and thework you want to be producing
that they are getting the workthat you ultimately want to be
getting to look and look at howthey are positioning themselves.
And I do this all the time whenI work with photographers or
when I put fully loose.
I'll show examples, and again,These are not to compare to like
(29:56):
to yourself like oh my godThere's no no no this just give
you an idea of look at thisperson Look at how visually how
they're shooting fashion Ialways give it one example this
photographer and this personshoots fashion, but because of
her skin It's like kind ofvisual consistency of how she
shoots that.
She carries that over in how sheshoots travel, how she shoots
(30:17):
events, how she shoots product,and she gets hired for that.
hard to explain because it'slike kind of a visual thing.
You have to look, but that's whyI always tell photographers,
look at other photographers andyou'll, the photographers you
see getting these work from likethese top brands and top
publications, they all have avibe.
One might be, it's like a softnatural feel another might be
(30:39):
like, this is obviously, mything is gels kind of thing and
it's applied to they havedeveloped and this is kind of
tandem hand in hand of developtheir own visual in a sense of
this is how I see it.
Myself as an artist sees theworld, and I think newer
photographers sometimes fall inthe trap where I have to do
(31:02):
everything.
So I have to kind of makeeverything look the same.
And it's no, the most importantthing as a photographer and why
people look to your work is theywant to see how you look at the
world.
I look at the world versus youlook at the world.
Definitely, at the same time, ifwe went down the same street,
This, and Adam, both of us wentdown the same street and we were
photographing.
Your photographs are probablygoing to look way different to
(31:24):
mine's because I'm going to seethe beauty of probably, I loved
shooting abandoned buildings andlike raggedy things because I
saw the beauty of the forgotten.
Where you might be like, look atthat couple sitting on the
bench, look at this couple orlook at this person right here
playing, you know what I mean?
that's what I love aboutphotography because the thing is
everyone can have a camera andeveryone would take a different
(31:45):
picture of the same subject.
It would look so different fromdifferent perspectives.
And so that's what I mean islike, why it's so important to
develop that, artistic eye foryourself, believing in that
self.
Then the visual consistency ofhow you process it.
I think a lot of photographersautomatically just want to go
to, oh, all I have to do is puta filter.
(32:07):
No, no, no.
Because once you know who youare as an artist and how you
feel, how you develop, how youwant to present your work, then
you understand, okay, the reasonI'm doing this, or the reason
why I'm putting these certaincolor settings together, this is
me.
This is how I see the world andhow I'm presenting myself.
(32:27):
Knowing that It can evolve,because that's why I say a lot
of these photographers you seeon top of the game, look at
their early work.
You will see a progression,because they're continuing to
master their craft andcontinuing to develop their eye
in a new way.
But still feels like them.
Raymond Hatfield (32:46):
Mmm.
Well, this may be kind of a hardquestion or maybe it's a real
easy question.
How do we do that for ourselves?
How do we find what our focusis?
How do we define what it is thatwe want to focus on?
If it's not necessarily subjectmatter, and there's other
options, like you said, lightingediting, how do we begin to find
our focus in photography?
Karen Williams (33:06):
I always say, do you have to do it?
So I would say, go and startlooking at visuals.
Put together a mood board.
See what you're attracted tobecause I can tell you there
will probably be a through lineon why you like these certain
images.
And then the next step is to goshoot it.
Go start photographing.
I think a lot of photographersthink, oh, I have to photograph
(33:27):
after school or after you'reself taught.
I only shoot when I'm gettinghired.
The only way you develop, it'slike that.
I forgot who said the quote of,it takes 10, 000 hours to really
develop thing.
You got to go and start shootingover 10, 000, 10, 000 photos
over and over and over again.
You will find quickly.
What you're passionate aboutbecause you'll start saying I'm
(33:49):
passionate about shooting peopleI want to get that story cuz you
know to me or I'm passionateabout still life I love being
able to control the environmentand control the elements and
coming up with my creative mindlike, okay Let me try, I'm gonna
knit the whole scene togetherand then I'm gonna place the
light, you know I mean therewill be an inner spark I believe
that will come out of you, butyou have to do and it's hard I
(34:11):
always say this is the unsexypart of it and I don't think
it's taught enough, but you haveto really sit there with
yourself and figure out andwhatever works for you, some
people like to go walks, somepeople like to journal, whatever
works for you, you got to sitdown and be like, okay, there's
a reason why I love doingphotography and really get deep
into it.
Once you've kind of figured out,then you kind of lean in to
(34:34):
that.
And again, it doesn't mean thatlet's say you have multiple
interests, it doesn't mean thatthose drop away, but you have to
focus on one thing first tomaster.
if you want to shoot weddings,you want to shoot portraits, you
want to shoot cars.
Okay, cool.
But here's the thing.
if you don't master all three ofthem, they're all going to look
mid and if one looks amazing,but the other two looks mid,
(34:55):
that's going to bring down theamazing portfolio because people
can't trust you.
So you have to master kind ofone thing at a time.
And then once you say you masterportrait, okay, you want to add
travel to it.
So then from your portrait andhow you've developed your visual
eye and you know, your artistry,how do you apply that?
What you're doing to portraits?
To travel photography.
(35:17):
How do you apply it to stilllife?
You're not reinventing the wheelbecause that's why it's so,
important to first know yourvisual eye and know how you
think, and then you apply thatto these other genres.
And that's what makes the wholething consistent.
It doesn't feel hodgepodgey.
What I run into, I'll be like,this is amazing, you know,
portrait, portfolio.
(35:38):
This is your strong suit.
And then I get to still life andI get the food and then I'm
like,
Raymond Hatfield (35:44):
What's
Karen Williams (35:44):
we have not mastered.
Again, food photography is adifferent beast than portraits,
then fashion that, you know whatI mean?
There's different skill sets.
So are you committed to learningthat to be the best that you can
be in those different genres?
Raymond Hatfield (35:59):
Yeah, that's hard.
That's a hard thing to do,right?
and kind of goes back to anotherreason why I always suggest
always continue to education,but maybe school is the right
choice.
if you hear that and you thinkto yourself, Okay, master it.
I get that.
But what exactly does that mean?
then you definitely need help.
So again, I really appreciateyou breaking that down that
(36:20):
helped me out a ton
Karen Williams (36:21):
May I add to that?
and it doesn't mean you have togo back to school.
Here's the thing for me, I takea bunch of courses.
I remember I took like lynda.
com or, those other subscriptionones.
Like I would wait until they hadsales for, it's 9.
99 and I would just load up onthat.
you know what I mean?
or go to the library and justcheck out books, read it.
YouTube, TikTok.
Now, there's like a video foreverything.
(36:43):
The thing is you have to be ableto apply it and you have to
practice it and do it.
And you have to know that you'regonna suck when you first start,
but if you keep doing it, it'sjust like when I start running
like I suck, but I keep runningand it gets easier and easier
and easier.
Right?
So this keep in mind, giveyourself grace, but there's many
different paths where you do nothave to go to school.
(37:04):
If you want to go to school.
Great.
That works for you.
Perfect.
But there's so many differentlike online courses, that's
cheaper or free YouTube videos.
You just have to take, be ableto be a self starter and go and
start doing it and practicing itbecause I always tell
photographers, that is the onlyway you're going to grow and
master in a sense you gotta do.
Raymond Hatfield (37:23):
Yeah, you gotta do, you gotta do.
I end every, episode of thepodcast with, the more you shoot
today, the better of aphotographer that you'll be
tomorrow.
Because, it's not necessarilythe camera gear that you got.
it is literally just getting outthere and doing it.
Like you said, it's the 10, 000photos.
you gotta do it.
So, I want to know now weunderstand, what the photo
editor is.
We understand what a photoeditor is looking for.
(37:44):
We understand a little bit abouthow to find our focus.
so let's say that we've gone outand we've shot, say our 10, 000
photos, and now we have acollection of images that we're
happy with that we like that areuniquely us somebody who has
seen a lot of portfolios, how dowe start to build a portfolio
that is going to stand out whenwe give it to somebody?
Karen Williams (38:05):
So I always say my suggestion to people because
you know again it took me yearsto be a great editor.
So when I started I sucked I waslike, these all look good People
come to me and like, no, Karen,why are you picking the ones
with the people's eyes closed?
So let me know and let you knowI
Raymond Hatfield (38:19):
You weren't.
You weren't picking photos of
Karen Williams (38:21):
so, you know, I mean maybe not but not thinking
about Oh, do you see how awkwardor not being able to see certain
things, right?
It took years to kind of likehone in where now I can look at
a photo and make sure i'mscanning it clearly but I always
tell, photographers, once youkind of know, first, again,
circle back to the brands youwant to be looking at, one trend
(38:43):
to book or publication you wantto book, visually see what's out
there, what kind of yourcompetition of the kind of shots
they have there, then you'regoing to go into your own work.
First, I always say go withfirst pass of, and I always say,
ask this question, is thisphoto, gonna serve me now to get
the jobs I want because this issometimes you could be like,
these are all my favorites andtrust me, I was one of those in
school where how dare you tellme my 27 photos too much for
(39:06):
this portfolio.
No, all of them are needed.
Sorry.
Bye.
Like, so I feel you, I tell youlike again, and when I edit, I
always tell the grapher theseare not my babies.
I'm not attached, so I'll killyour darlings.
I'm like, I'm a cutthroat.
I'm like, Nope, nope, nope,nope.
This is why I feel like it'sbest.
So sometimes, when you're kindof wafer back and forth, I would
say first just ask you aquestion.
(39:27):
is this photo serving you?
to get the job you ultimatelywant to get.
If it's a yes, keep.
If it's a no, it doesn't meanthis photo goes away forever.
You can put it on socials, puton a blog, or if you desperately
need to see it on a website,make another website for
yourself that you only see foryourself and just put it on
there.
And then you can look at itevery day.
Okay, once you've kind of calledthat down and I always say where
(39:51):
the kind of general format I seefor websites and again, it's
however you want.
I see Websites where people wantto be super fancy And some that
are straight just a tumblr pageIt just depends on your artistic
vision and how you express yourwork Usually but template the
format you see is like anoverview and then you see I
always say You Then have the,diminished turns of clicks, like
(40:12):
what's the first thing is theone you want to get hired for
and like kind of the genre andthen you go from there and there
to contact.
So I'm just going to use anexample.
Overview should be just a hit,quit.
This is the advertiser whereyou're like, people are like,
Ooh, this is amazing.
These are A images that canstand by themselves.
They don't need a context ofanother image around it.
(40:36):
These are basically, I wouldsay, billboard images or covers.
Think of it like that where youhave to sell something before
someone enters, flips over themagazine or wants to Google the
brand because they love thatimage so much.
So think of it like that andtrust me, it's not as many as
you think.
Raymond Hatfield (40:53):
Yeah.
Karen Williams (40:54):
No one makes, like all these A things, because
you do stories, right?
You do a fashion story, andyou're telling a whole, story,
but not all those images arecover worthy, in a sense, you
know?
And I'm not saying they can't,but you know, there's a reason
why, that image was chosen asthe cover.
So it's Think of your overviewas these are my cover images.
These get people excited to wantto click more and stay on your
(41:17):
site.
So that's what you have tothink.
You're curating to speak thelanguage to the brands and
publications or the kind of workthat you want to attract to
yourself and people to be oohingon.
about Then the second time,let's say, I want to shoot more
celebrity portraits orportraits.
And here's the thing, if youwant to shoot celebrities, And
you don't have that in yourportfolio first to start off
(41:38):
with kick ass portraits Okay toget the attention and start
getting work to start kind ofbuilding yourself up to that But
you will be like, okay portraitsand then maybe you're having
that Let's say I shoot somestill life and it's awesome.
I always say how many clicksDoes it take to get to where you
want people to go to?
And where do you want them to gofirst?
because of TikTok, we have anattention span of what, seven,
(42:00):
five, seven seconds?
So kind of think, so think aboutthat when you're kind of
curating your, portfolio.
First, you want to be speakingthe language of the kind of work
to attract the companies youwant to be getting work for.
And then making sure that thephotos, are like bangers.
I'm like in the lane of less ismore.
Don't put everything in thekitchen sink because you can
(42:21):
have what I see ruin portfoliosthe most.
I'll see Oh, this is amazing.
Amazing.
Like what the hell is thisimage?
Raymond Hatfield (42:28):
Yeah,
Karen Williams (42:29):
that image?
And then you're starting to makeme question, you do this?
you're having like hodgepodgekind of things where it's now
throwing me into question, canyou deliver?
So that's why I always say it'slike, make sure, not saying
here's the thing, portfolio willget you in, but what always will
keep you in the circle kind oflike, or people recommend you is
(42:50):
how you deliver.
So don't be putting things, ifyou don't feel 100 percent
confident, I should be able topick anything from your site.
And be like, okay, I want a babyof that, and you know how to do
it.
Like, I literally just tell you,I want a baby of this.
Like, I like this lighting here,I like this background here.
I want a baby of that.
And do not put anything you donot want to be hired for.
(43:11):
I have had that so many timeswhere I will pick the image, I
really love the picture, andthey're like, oh, I didn't like
it.
But I just put it up therebecause people
Raymond Hatfield (43:19):
Really?
Even at like, a highprofessional level?
Wow.
That seems like such a newphotographer thing because it's
so like, you typically think,don't have enough in my
portfolio, I need to just addsomething there.
But even at such a high level?
Karen Williams (43:32):
I would be like, no, do not put anything you do
not want to be hired for becauseyou will be hired for that.
Cause I've done it before whereI reach out to a photographer
and it's like, Oh, we like this.
And they're like, Oh, I don'treally like it.
I like the image kind of, but Idon't really, I don't want to do
that.
Raymond Hatfield (43:45):
Wow.
Yeah.
Karen Williams (43:46):
I've had that.
So I have to tell people like,that's why I say you can have
favorite photos, maybe put inyour personal projects.
here's the thing, if there'ssomething that you really love,
but doesn't really fit the vibeof what you're trying to sell
yourself as, in a sense,personal projects the ticket
because personal projects can bewhatever you want.
Now, remember, again, you stillwant it to feel cohesive in a
(44:08):
sense, not like cohesive to thething, but the personal projects
should feel cohesive withinitself.
So it might be like, I'm a highend celebrity portrait
photographer, but here's what Idid when I went to the studio.
Trip to Haiti or something oryou know to me or I went to
Paris and I documented tourfunds Right and that again
personal projects can get youother work because I've hired
(44:30):
photographers based on theirpersonal projects before so it's
like oh and we look, say I'msports illustrator or something
I'm like, oh we really likedyour work that you did with the
tour friends Would you like todo something like that again?
Mm-Hmm?
Raymond Hatfield (44:43):
Yeah, I had Brad Mangin on the podcast, a
while ago who he was like one ofthe first photographers to
document MLB just with Instagramand he got a ton of work because
of that.
And it was just a personalproject.
He wasn't like selling thesephotos or anything.
So, that's a great.
And I'm glad to hear that, it,wasn't just a one off thing and
that it happens in more casesthan that.
So, Karen, I know that peopleare thinking of themselves right
(45:05):
now.
This is wonderful, but Idefinitely don't want to get to
the point to where I put in allthis work and eventually build a
garbage portfolio.
So, as we end our conversationhere, can you let us know where
can we find out more about youonline?
Can we find more information onhow to go deeper into our focus,
get more into the business sideof a commercial photography here
and, build a awesome portfolio.
Karen Williams (45:27):
And so for me, you can find
me@blackvisualqueen.com and thenall my socials is Black Visual
Queen and I daily on LinkedInand Instagram will.
tips and, you know, nuggets, butother resources though, that I
always point photographers tois, this is how I learned about
being a photo editor actually isyou're not following like a
(45:48):
photo editor.
com.
So Rob, I'm a former like photodirector of I believe outside
magazine.
he has a website and a,Instagram.
I say that's like 100 percent hefirst of all have tabs for like
legal terms.
He posts estimates To give youlike clear, real estimates from
real jobs to show you hey, thisis how people are billing This
(46:11):
is what people are putting inthem He also does these
anonymous surveys with realcommercial photographers and
asking them questions Theyanswer whatever they want to
answer, but they'll give youlike real time rates they're,
pros and cons, rule advice fromworking photographers in the
game to give you insight andwisdom.
So I 100 percent recommend him.
He's the one why I actuallylearned kind of what a photo
(46:34):
editor does because I just wouldfollow him and be like, okay,
what are you doing?
And how do you break in?
Another source is also awonderful machine.
They have such a great detailedblog and that's another place
where you can go and reach outto their services if you ever
need help, putting together anestimate or anything, that's
another place.
ask a rep also on, Instagram.
(46:54):
she's kind of a hybrid agentwhere, she gives daily advice to
photographers about pitchingportfolios, estimates and stuff
like that.
So I would say those are kind ofmy top kind of three to get more
resources and also your locallike photo, you know, chat,
organizations, to reach out andthey usually have a ton of
information.
Raymond Hatfield (47:14):
All right, let's go ahead and recap what we
have learned today.
One, utilize personal projectsto showcase that unique work.
Personal projects will allow youto explore themes and styles
that may not fit your, currentstyle, but can still showcase
your versatility and yourcreativity.
These projects honestly can leadto new opportunities and help
you to stand out.
(47:35):
So step one, identify maybe asubject or a theme that you're
passionate about and just starta personal project.
Next, curate a tailoredportfolio just for clients.
So a well curated portfolio.
It should speak the language ofyour target client, right?
It should showcase yourstrongest work that aligns with
(47:55):
your client's needs as well.
So, build yourself a portfolioand then regularly update that
portfolio to ensure that itmatches the type of job that you
want to attract.
And also be sure to remove anyimages that maybe you're not 100
percent confident aboutdelivering, just so that you can
avoid any sort of, booking a jobthat maybe isn't the right
opportunity.
(48:16):
for you.
And lastly, just master oneskill at a time.
If you want to develop a uniquephotographic style, that
requires focused effort andcontinuous practice.
So choose one area to master,such as lighting or a particular
editing style or shooting style,and dedicate a substantial
amount of time to practicing andrefining just that.
(48:39):
That is it for today.
Until next week, remember themore that you shoot today, the
better of a photographer youwill be tomorrow.
Talk soon.
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