Inside the Creative Process of Making Photo Series with Dina Goldstein

#583 Dina Goldstein is an acclaimed photographer and visual artist known for her provocative, narrative-driven imagery and a career spanning over 30 years. Dina shares her unconventional journey into photography—from her early fascination with how she saw the world, to a pivotal trip in her 20s that inspired her to take her first photography course. She discusses her drive for continual learning, willingness to make mistakes, and evolving artistic process.

KEY TOPICS COVERED

1. Finding Your Path in Photography - Dina shares how she did not set out to become a photographer, but her distinct way of seeing the world and a curiosity about visual storytelling led her to the camera. She discusses her transition from aspiring actor to dedicated photographer, and encourages beginners to “just do it”—advocating for action and experimentation over perfection from the start.
2. Embracing Mistakes and Gaining Technical Mastery - Dina recounts real-life stories from her early career, emphasizing how setbacks and mistakes—like disappointing film results or technical failures on major shoots—became opportunities for growth. She underscores the importance of preparation, learning the fundamentals (especially light), and practicing relentlessly before critical assignments. Her approach includes making and learning from mistakes, remaining humble, and valuing ongoing practice.
3. Editorial vs. Artistic Photography - The episode dives into the distinctions between editorial work (client-driven, often for magazines or businesses) versus personal art projects (driven by the artist’s own vision). Dina explains the expectations, pressures, and creative compromises involved in each. She provides examples from her own career, contrasting the demands of magazine portraits with the fully conceptualized, collaborative productions required for series like Fallen Princesses and The Ten Commandments.

IMPORTANT DEFINITIONS & CONCEPTS

• Editorial Photography: Photography commissioned for publications, shaped by specific requirements from art directors or clients, as opposed to personal, self-driven art pieces.
• Artistic Eye: The innate or cultivated ability to see images, light, and composition in unique ways. Essential for transcending mere technical competence and creating meaningful work.

DISCUSSION & REFLECTION QUESTIONS

1. How do your personal experiences and worldview shape the themes you explore in your photography?
2. When faced with setbacks or mistakes, what strategies can help you learn and grow rather than lose confidence?
3. What distinguishes a meaningful personal project from a commercial or editorial assignment for you?

RESOURCES:
Visit Dina Goldstein's Website - https://dinagoldstein.com/
Follow Dina Goldstein  on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/dinagoldstein/

Sign up for your free CloudSpot Account today at www.DeliverPhotos.com

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Thanks for listening & keep shooting!

Episode Transcript

Dina Goldstein (00:02):
I think like always be open, always
experiment and be willing tomake mistakes and be willing to
just jump in and do it.
Of course people have fear, fearof failure, fear of not doing
the best work you can, but youhave to fight that fear.
You have to push through it.
And on the other side, it couldbe good, it could be bad.

(00:25):
You never know, but at least youdid it.
Otherwise you really get stalledand that's what everything in
life, I think not onlyphotography, it's just a life
lesson too.
Hey, photo friends Raymond here,and welcome to the Beginner
Photography Podcast, where everyTuesday I drop a brand new
episode to help you capturebetter photos by learning from
the world's most creativephotographers.

(00:47):
And here on Thursdays, I share arewind episode, a past
conversation handpicked becauseit is just as valuable today as
when it was first released.
So whether you're brand new oryou're revisiting with fresh
years, this one is packed withtimeless photo wisdom to help
you grow behind the lens.
And in today's rewind episode,we are talking with fine art

(01:09):
photographer Dana Goldstein,about using a camera to hold up
a mirror to society.
But first, the BeginnerPhotography Podcast is brought
to you by Cloud Spot.
With Cloud Spot, you can sellyour photos through prints,
products, and of course,digitals.
You can set up a storefront inminutes and start earning more
with every gallery you send.
So grab your free [e-mail] and only

(01:31):
upgrade when you are ready.
Today's guest, Dina Goldstein,has really created an
interesting body of work.
She creates images that, well,you can't help but look at,
images that are surreal, but notto the point of fantasy.
Like they're believable yetundeniably it's a narrative, but
at their core, her images makeyou think, they think about the

(01:55):
decisions that, you make in yourown life.
They make you think about thethings that we look past in
society, and they make you thinkabout what actions you can take
to be the change that you wantto see in the world.
And as a photographer, what morecould you want out of the images
that you create?
And today, that's exactly whatshe's gonna share with you.

(02:17):
So with that, let's go ahead andget on into today's rewind
interview.

Raymond Hatfield (02:22):
Dina, after 30 years of, being in the
photography world, you'vecreated quite a name for
yourself as a photographer.
You've produced, bothinspirational images and also
controversial images.
I want to know that from yourearliest days, did you know,
like, like when you were achild, did you know that
photography was going to besomething that was going to play

(02:44):
a big role in your life?
Or is this something that youdiscovered along the way?

Dina Goldstein (02:49):
Well, I definitely didn't know when I
was a child.
but I did know that I saw thingsdifferently.
And, like for instance, I sawcolors more than my friends, I
don't have an explanation forit, but I'd always be in wonder
of, of any of things, or maybe Isaw things that other people

(03:11):
didn't see.
And, when my friends came over,I turn on different lights for
some reason.
Now that I think back at it, tomake the place look nice.
So I turn on that light and thatlight and that light.
So, just little things that Idid, or maybe the way that I saw
the world.
That's the only connection thatI have to it.

(03:33):
I really, I wanted to be anactor and I was a theater brat
and, I thought that I was goingto end up doing that.
But, when I was about 20, Iended up going to Dahab, which
is, a little, hippie resort inthe Sinai.
And I ended up taking like alittle point and shoot camera.

(03:55):
And I met all these amazingpeople and I took pictures.
And when I came back, Ideveloped the film and.
It wasn't as great as I wantedit to be or expected it to be.
And I was really upset about it.
So I decided to take aphotography course and that just

(04:18):
paved the way.
because I fell in love with it.
And.
I never left the house withoutmy camera from that day on.
I just always had my camera withme.

Raymond Hatfield (04:31):
So what was it, you know, you get these
photos back and I'll be honest,I guess right now with it being
spring, for me personally, it'slike lawn care.
Like I really want to have anice lawn, like I, which is
ridiculous, but like I want itto look nice.
And then inevitably dandelionscome popping up and it never
turns out the way that I want itto.

Dina Goldstein (04:49):
Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield (04:49):
And there's a certain subset of people that
would get discouraged and justsay, well, this isn't for me.
And then obviously there's you,who you see these photos from a
cheap, plastic, disposablecamera.
What was it that you werethinking that made you decide,
like, Wait, there's somethinghere that if I studied this, I
can make a real go at this.

(05:10):
More so than what you werefollowing, which was acting at
the time.

Dina Goldstein (05:15):
it was that everything was so beautiful
there, and the people were sobeautiful.
And I had this experience, butit didn't really come back to me
on my film, like you said.
So I wanted to learn.
I wanted to be better.
I think this is something aboutme.
It's inherent.

(05:35):
I just want to be better.
really good at what I do, if Ido it.

Raymond Hatfield (05:41):
Is that with all aspects of your life, do you
find?
Is that, you think that's whoyou are in everything that you
do?
Or does something really have toclick with you?

Dina Goldstein (05:49):
Well, I mean, I make a lot of mistakes because I
try and I try and I try againand again and again.
So I'm not afraid of makingmistakes.
I just want to, maybe figurethings out or work things out
that I don't understand.
And photography kept on givingthat back to me, like, just more

(06:12):
to learn, more to understand,more to evolve.
And maybe that's kind of why Ifell in love with it.
But also, because I mean, I lovetreasure hunting, and I find
that, photography helped me withthat.
It was like picking through thenegatives and finding that
perfect, that little treasure,that one really good image.

Raymond Hatfield (06:35):
I would imagine that especially after,
while you're in the learningprocess and trying to uncover
how this camera works.
Yeah.
Finding that, that one photo islike a treasure hunt.
It does, it does feel great.

Dina Goldstein (06:47):
It's very magical.
Yeah.
I mean, and remember I startedout with film, so it was an
instant like it is today.
So you would have to wait to getyour film back and then kind of
discover what's on Cross yourfingers that everything went
really well, so it was harder.

(07:09):
It wasn't like it is today Yeah,not an instant culture.

Raymond Hatfield (07:14):
You mentioned earlier that you're not afraid
to make mistakes, that you'vemade thousands of mistakes

Dina Goldstein (07:19):
Yes, many.

Raymond Hatfield (07:20):
Can you think of one mistake that you made
early on maybe when it came tophotography that you really
struggled with was there abreakthrough with that?

Dina Goldstein (07:28):
I don't think it was like one particular moment.
I think it's like a whole bunchof little things that luckily I
made those mistakes before theimportant moments, so if I was
photographing somebody, if I hadlike a portrait, uh, shoot,
let's say the day before, Iwould kind of play around and

(07:52):
figure things out and make mymistakes.
Strong.
And not wait for the actualshoot to make the mistakes.
I mean, things happen, ofcourse, oh my gosh, on shoot, on
the set, that are unexpected, ofcourse, but most of my mistakes,
and learning happens in thepractice, within the practice.

Raymond Hatfield (08:15):
Would you be willing to share maybe like,
okay, so I'm sure that peopleare listening right now
thinking, wait, I have a, Or Ihave a portrait session this
weekend, would you be willing toshare maybe a form of practice
or something that you, that theycan do to, to better prepare
themselves?

Dina Goldstein (08:31):
Okay.
For instance, I did photograph alot of weddings.
I photographed weddings, barmitzvahs, anything, anything.
At beginning of my career, Ireally did not, discriminate
between jobs.
So I photographed food, people,things, cars, you name it,
everything.

(08:52):
and I mean, early on, I realizedthat, there were a few things
that I needed to do, to bebetter at it for, I mean, I
spent countless, day shootingwedding sweating when I really
should have had like someonethere an assistant helping me
with my equipment instead oflike dragging my equipment and

(09:13):
you know at the beginning toothey wanted you to do video and
photography at the same time ohmy

Raymond Hatfield (09:19):
gosh that's a whole another set that's a whole
oh

Dina Goldstein (09:22):
yes I mean this is I'm talking about the 90s
that's when I did this

Raymond Hatfield (09:27):
no all in one photo video camera at that time

Dina Goldstein (09:30):
Yeah.
And then, you know, a lot ofthings that kind of went wrong
with like sinking flashes andoutdoors and things not like not
connecting properly.
stuff like that or, yeah, stufflike that.
Also like how to engage withpeople during these events,
like, what your mood should bealmost like, Like a waitress,

(09:51):
like I did some waitressing andwhen you go up to a table and
you kind of like have to gaugewhat their mood is and like how
friendly you're going to be,maybe these people don't want to
talk, maybe they want to just betogether.
And you kind of have to, gaugethat with families and people
when you're working with people.
So stuff like that, if you'relooking for like a big mess up,

(10:14):
um, I have a really funny story.

Raymond Hatfield (10:18):
I'm all ears.

Dina Goldstein (10:19):
If you want a really big mess up.
Okay.
but I don't know how much myfault this was, but I was hired
to photograph Jackie Chan.
Do you know the, the Chineseactor?
Of course.
Yes.
And, martial arts, practitioner.
And, so we had to fly to Berlin.
We had to fly to Berlin.

(10:41):
to photograph him because he wasmaking a movie.
So we flew over there and I hadlike literally, maybe two hours
with him, I think.
And, I brought all my equipment.
I brought my lights, everything.
The night before we tested thelights at the hotel and I had
bought this whole mechanismbecause, they have, uh, The

(11:03):
voltage is different in Europefrom North America.
We did the test at the hotel andall the lights blew.
All my strobes blew.

Raymond Hatfield (11:14):
Oh no, it

Dina Goldstein (11:15):
exploded, basically exploded.
So it was Sunday in Germany.
Everything is closed.
Everything.
I mean, I look for rentals,anybody, anybody that I could
reach out to.
So I had no lights for my shoot.
And that was really stressful,but, I went downstairs just to

(11:38):
calm down, to think, down to thehotel.
And there was this photographerwith a whole light kit there.
Apparently, uh, Berlin, uh,Parliament is there, and so
there are many photographersphotographing members of
Parliament.
And he was one of them.

(12:00):
And I told him my situation.
I explained everything to him.
And he lent me his lights.

Raymond Hatfield (12:05):
Oh my goodness.
What?
What are the odds?
That is incredible.
I know.

Dina Goldstein (12:11):
I know.
So, and also at that point, Iwas working with a medium format
camera with, transparencies.
Oh.
and I had to do Polaroid tests.
Yeah.
So, I suddenly had to pivot andlearn his lights, and this is
all like in a matter of littlebit of time before Jackie Chan

(12:34):
walks in.
So, it all came together, andthen I brought my transparencies
to a lab in Berlin, that Ididn't even, I've never worked
with them, I don't know, andyou're just like, Giving them
the work, you're just sayinghere you go Here are the three
roles or whatever and crossingfingers counting that

(12:54):
everything's going to be okayand of course if it was today
with the digital world, it wouldbe much much easier

Raymond Hatfield (13:03):
did they turn out?
Okay

Dina Goldstein (13:05):
Yes.
Everything was fine.
It's like white background, notvery much time lights that I
don't know.
and yeah, it

Raymond Hatfield (13:16):
somehow

Dina Goldstein (13:16):
it came together and it worked out.
But see, even when you try totest everything and be prepared
and have everything in line,it's just like life

Raymond Hatfield (13:29):
just like, yeah,

Dina Goldstein (13:31):
life.
Just dishes you out a wholebunch of challenges.

Raymond Hatfield (13:35):
Wow, what a story.
I can't imagine the amount ofstress that I would, be feeling
in a moment like that, obviouslyhaving to, the fact that you
booked the gig, but now havingto deal with a high profile,
subject in front of the cameraand then just everything falls
apart.
That is, I'm glad that it workedout.
And obviously glad thatParliament just so happened to
be, in that same hotel at thatsame time.

(13:55):
Cause what a mess that wouldhave been.
Let me ask you a question.
If that photographer wasn't downin the lobby.

Dina Goldstein (14:03):
What

Raymond Hatfield (14:03):
would you have done?
Like, how would, because youwould have had to still got
something.
how would your game plan change?

Dina Goldstein (14:09):
Would probably had to take them outside.

Raymond Hatfield (14:12):
Would that have been a possibility?

Dina Goldstein (14:14):
Yeah.
I mean, yeah, you have to have aplan B.

Raymond Hatfield (14:18):
Yeah.

Dina Goldstein (14:19):
You have to have a plan B.
So it would have been not theway that I imagined it.
I imagined it like perfectlyexposed images in front of a
white background, which.
Happened actually, which

Raymond Hatfield (14:32):
is what came out.
Yeah.
Good.
Which

Dina Goldstein (14:34):
is what came out.
But, and this was for an ad for,a private airplane company.
So he was dressed like a pilotwith a whole bunch of airline
attendants, like surrounding himand all that.
So there were a lot of people.
There wasn't only him.
There were like five or sixpeople in the shot, which also

(14:54):
complicates.
Kate's it, it's all like justhim.
If it's just him, it's more wayeasier.
I can take him outside.
I can, you know, but they werelike commercial images for an ad
and they had to be a certainway.
So, yeah.

Raymond Hatfield (15:10):
You'd have to get that, what's that movie?
The Catch Me If You Can.
You'd have to get that image.
And then that would just, justhave to be it right there.
Well, I want to, I want to takea step back, before we move on
from here because, I'm sure thelisteners are thinking, whoa, we
went from, photo school to, or,or, learning photography to now
we're photographing Jackie Chan.
So before you started doing, canyou tell me how you got into

(15:30):
doing commissioned work?

Dina Goldstein (15:33):
Yes.
So when I first startedphotography, I wanted to be a
photojournalist and I did thatfor a while.
I, got a job with a weeklynewspaper and then I did some
freelancing for the Art Citynewspaper, the Vancouver Sun.
Thank you.
And.
That's what I wanted to do.
but I quickly realized that Iwould have to travel a lot to do

(15:57):
that and go to very serious wartorn areas and dangerous areas.
And it's not that I was afraidof that danger.
it's that I had met my husbandand we got married and, I kind
of made a decision at that time,which was the end of the
nineties.
editorial photography wasprobably better for me because I

(16:20):
am good with people.
people I think feel comfortablewith me when I'm photographing
them and sometimes they havefun.
So, so I thought, magazinephotography is probably a better
thing for me and that's, that'swhat I, went out to do and I, I
created a portfolio with all thework that I had, compiled over

(16:43):
that decade, the nineties and,in the two thousands, basically
I just went into an editorialcareer.
and shooting for magazines.
It's doing mostly portrait work.

Raymond Hatfield (16:55):
Can you tell me, like, what's your definition
of editorial work?
Like I'm trying to picture in myhead, if somebody were to ask,
like, what's the differencebetween like an editorial photo
and say, like a portrait, Iguess, what, what would you say
to them?

Dina Goldstein (17:08):
Well, I mean, who are you shooting the
portrait for?
Are you shooting the portraitfor you as an artist?
Or are you shooting it for amagazine that has specific
requirements.
They want an outdoor shot.
They want it to be threequarter.
They they want you to do this orleave space up top for text or,

(17:29):
you know, so I think like whenyou're on assignment for an
editorial piece, you're, you'reworking for them, you're
creating a portrait for thepublication.

Raymond Hatfield (17:40):
I see.
So editorial work is more forbusinesses.
Whereas, say, portraits or maybeother, I would say, traditional
forms of photography that maybenew photographers are looking to
get into are more direct tocustomers?
would that sound about right?

Dina Goldstein (17:55):
are you taking a portrait for the person?
Like does, what does the personrequire?
Is the person a real estateagent?
If the person is a real estateagent, they want a picture
against a white background,three quarters, friendly, you
know, smiling.
Doing all that big sold

Raymond Hatfield (18:14):
sign.
Yeah.

Dina Goldstein (18:15):
So who are you taking the photo for?
are you taking it for yourselfas an artist?
If so, What would you do if youdidn't have these requirements.
I usually did what I wanted.
But you're also working with anart director and so not solely
for yourself.
Mm-Hmm, that's how I would,distinguish between a portrait,

(18:38):
portrait that I would take.
For myself as an art piece,rather than, a commission from a
publication, because I amworking with someone also
similarly with advertising.
It's the same.
So you have an art director andthe art director is kind of,

(18:58):
you're there as the vehicle tomake their vision come alive.

Raymond Hatfield (19:04):
Okay.
I get it.
Yes.
Yes.
So

Dina Goldstein (19:07):
that's the difference between working for
yourself, creating work foryourself, and being
commissioned, working with anart director, and creating
something that they need fortheir purposes.

Raymond Hatfield (19:21):
I see.
Okay.
so now that you've been doingthis for how many years now?
How many years have you been,would you consider yourself
strictly an editorialphotographer?

Dina Goldstein (19:29):
Well, I am no longer an editorial
photographer.

Raymond Hatfield (19:32):
Okay.

Dina Goldstein (19:33):
Because?
At the beginning of the I quitall of my commercial work, and I
began to create my own series,and I became a full time artist.

Raymond Hatfield (19:48):
Yeah, okay, okay, so then, before we move on
to your, uh, yeah, before wemove into the 2010s right there,
let me ask, because I'm surethat there are some people
listening right now who arelooking to get into editorial
photography.
Yeah.
So, if you were to look back atsome of your earliest editorial
photos.
If you can think of one in yourhead, is there anything that

(20:09):
stands out as maybe an amateurmistake or something that, is an
overarching theme of your photosthat you quickly learn to get
rid of for, for better editorialimages?

Dina Goldstein (20:18):
I think you, you have to go in really humble,
like you can't, I mean, peoplehave this kind of, TV character
idea of a photographer, you comein and you're like, oh, oh, put
that there, do that.
That it's really not the way itis because, uh, you have to come
in I think it's important to behumble and professional, and

(20:42):
when you're working witheditorial, you have very little
time.
So you have to be quick on yourfeet, quick thinking, and quick
working, because you'rephotographing people usually
that are important people, orelse, why are you photographing
them?
I mean, they're going to be in amagazine, they did something,

(21:02):
they're high profile people.
So they don't have much timeand, you just have to be, quick
and show them that you respecttheir time, that, you know, it's
that you're professional andthat, you know, what you're
doing.
Yeah, I mean, yeah, witheditorial, I'm trying to think

(21:23):
of a mistake because you keep onasking me about mistakes.

Raymond Hatfield (21:27):
No, you know what?
It's it's one of those things.
So here's one thing that I'veheard oftentimes from listeners
of the podcast is that when itcomes to Interviews, I suppose.
Oftentimes I will interviewpeople, photographers like
yourself who have quite a longcareer.
And the photographers who arelistening are still in those

(21:47):
early days.
there they've been shootingbetween zero and 24 months.
Maybe they still have theirfirst DSLR that they got at
Costco or whatever.
And they see photographers likeyourself and think, I want to
get there.
How do I get there?
You know, so when it's time totalk to you,

Dina Goldstein (22:06):
I have an answer

Raymond Hatfield (22:07):
for

Dina Goldstein (22:08):
you.

Raymond Hatfield (22:08):
Okay, let's hear it.

Dina Goldstein (22:10):
When I was at the very beginning of my career,
I would whine.
Oh, I just want to do this.
I just want to do this.
And I had a friend and he justlooked me in the eye and he
said, just do it.
Just go out and do it.
That's all.
That's all it takes.
And you know what?
That's all it takes.

(22:31):
It's like, I mean, the thing isnot everyone's going to have the
talent for this, right?
Like I want to be a singer, butI'm a horrible singer.
And if somebody said, just go doit, I would do it.
And I would break some windowsand it would not be a good
scene, but, at least I tried itand I gave it a shot, you know,

(22:55):
we only live once.
Do it.
Just do it.
Do it.
Now.
if you really wanna do it and,you feel like you wanna make it
a career, I think that youshould, make sure that, that you
are good at it.
You know that you, you havesomething that even if it's an
early talent, that's somethingthat you can develop, that you
have a good eye.
Cause without that good eye, Idon't think it's even worth

(23:19):
going forward.
You know, like, no matter howmany voice lessons that I have,
I just, I couldn't do it becauseI just, I don't have the natural
talent and it's not somethingthat everyone can do.
It's like now that there aredigital cameras.
and it's something I noticed inthe early 2000s that there were
digital cameras coming in andpeople just felt like they could

(23:41):
do it.
Even art directors, the onesthat I was working with,
thought, Oh, I can do it.
I have this camera, I can do itnow.
And it's just not the case.
Yeah.
Just because you have theequipment doesn't mean that you
have the eye and you need theeye to be able to, become good.
They're really good at what youdo.
Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield (24:01):
I appreciate you being open and candid there
and being honest, cause we canall attest to that.
We all know somebody who boughtthe most expensive camera,
hoping that it was going to takethe best photo.
And, we just know that itdoesn't work that way.
And I love that.
when, one thing that I hear fromyou is that there has to be
tenacity to, to move forward.
You have to be okay with makingthose mistakes.

(24:21):
but then, you shared that partright there, which I think is
missing from a lot of.
interviews, which is you startto have an eye, like you still
have to have something therewithin you, to be able to
cultivate.
And that's, that's a real thing.
So again, thank you for, forbeing open about that.

Dina Goldstein (24:35):
And then it's also too, you have to have that
eye and then you have to, learnabout light and understand
light.
Like, for instance, if I were toorganize a, weekend,
photography, course or somethingwould just take somebody to the
same place the whole day andjust like take one object and

(24:56):
look at that object and we cando it at the studio with the
strobe, but you can also do itoutside with the sun and see how
that particular object changeswith the light.
You have to understand why youhave to see light and feel light
and, be open to that, to, toobserving, just observing.
How light affects and changes.

(25:16):
Everything.

Raymond Hatfield (25:18):
Right.
Of course.
Yeah, that's a major aspect ofphotography that, again, gets
lost in the hoping that thecamera will just make everything
magical and we know that itdoesn't.
So again, thank you.
Thank you for that.
Oh, I want to move on now thatwe're done with the 2010s.
Here you are, here's DinaGoldstein.
You are ready to make your markon the world.
And this is when you introduceyour series Fallen Princesses.

(25:41):
Is that correct?

Dina Goldstein (25:43):
Yes.
So, this happened just after thedigital revolution.
So, again, I felt that peoplewere kind of making light of
the, the art of photography, thecraft of photography.
Because making images now becameso much easier for people who

(26:06):
didn't understand how to use acamera before, because before
digital, you had to understandyour shutter speeds and your
apertures and light.
Right.
so in the middle of all that, Ithought, you know what, if I'm
going to create images, I bettercreate images that nobody else
can make.

Raymond Hatfield (26:26):
okay.
So I've heard you on, on manypodcasts before I have, read up
on this fallen princesses, yourcollection here.
and I know that it started afteryou found out that your mom was
diagnosed with breast cancer andseeing kind of the wonder in
your daughter's eye, right?
Can you expand a little bit onthat?

Dina Goldstein (26:45):
Yes.
So I'm trying to give you, asense of the time within the
photography world, like what wasgoing on with when I'm
describing this digitalrevolution and me wanting to
make pictures and, that weredifferent and, that nobody else
could make.
At the same time, my daughterwas in play school.

(27:08):
And, my mother was diagnosedwith breast cancer and the two
events kind of collided.
And I started, to think becausewhen my daughter came back from
school, from daycare, she wassuddenly, obsessed with, Disney
princesses.
And I thought, where is thisfrom?
I mean, it's not coming from ourhome.
So it's obviously, somethingthat she's, being exposed to.

(27:33):
daycare.
It's the only other place she'sat.
and so my mother's illness andthen my daughter's interest made
me think about things, inregards to, how pop culture
idealizes, gender, roles, andthe way that girls are depicted

(27:54):
within these Disney, books andfilms.
And I just felt like that.
It was really outdated and Ididn't want my daughter to To be
enthralled with this at all.
So that's what got me thinking.
And I started putting theprincesses in, real life
situations with real lifechallenges, or I tried to do

(28:16):
that to, discuss importantissues.

Raymond Hatfield (28:19):
So obviously many people are listening right
now.
maybe they're not in front of acomputer.
Could you describe a few of theimages for me?

Dina Goldstein (28:26):
Sure.
the very first image that Iphotographed was Rapunzel and
that was directly inspired by mymother's illness.
And here we have Rapunzelsitting, on a bed in a hospital
room attached to, chemomedication.
and, she's got her wig that'sbraided, very, very long braid

(28:50):
sitting beside her.
and she's looking down.
She's, it's just a very kind ofserene, look on her face, I
guess.
And, yeah, so that's one, one ofthem.
And that's like the first onethat I photographed.
I later went on to, portrayCinderella at a pub, kind of

(29:12):
city.
After a long

Raymond Hatfield (29:13):
day.

Dina Goldstein (29:14):
Yeah, it's supposed to be kind of like a
hidden away.
bar that nobody would see herat.
And she's kind of sitting therewith a drink.
And of course she's, she's sad.
And I have a whole backstory towhy she's sad.
and then you've got all thesekind of bar, bar goers, pub
goers kind of looking at her,trying to figure out what she's

(29:36):
doing there.
So I got Joe White at home indomestic.
Hell

Raymond Hatfield (29:41):
yeah.

Dina Goldstein (29:42):
With the Lazy Prince.

Raymond Hatfield (29:44):
I'm of course gonna put links in the show
notes to where, listeners can,find more of your images.
But I think that you painted areal good picture there, which
is like, well, what happens,after they grow up?
Like what happens when theyenter the real world?
what happens when, the personwho we identified as as a child
now has to face the things thatI have to, I deal with.
as an adult.

(30:04):
and I think that maybe that'swhy it became so powerful is
because, we do have this idea.
I mean, I don't have to tell youwhy it became powerful, but,
what I'm trying to get at hereis that with photography, like
an idea like this, a conceptlike this, this takes time.
This, this is not something thatyou showed up.
To the pub.
And you're like, Whoa, she'sdressed up like Cinderella.
Let me snap a photo.
Like there's a production here,right?

(30:26):
Yeah.
So

Dina Goldstein (30:27):
my methodology completely changed.

Raymond Hatfield (30:30):
Yeah.
So before

Dina Goldstein (30:31):
it was like me and an assistant going out to
photograph someone with like acouple of lights, and, it was
very little time, that's kind oflike the editorial world.
I mean, at one point I wasshooting like three assignments
in one day.
It was insane.

Raymond Hatfield (30:46):
Yeah.

Dina Goldstein (30:47):
Yes.
but this is different.
This is like, I can't do it justby myself.
I need like a crew.
I need a makeup artist.
I need, an assistant.
I need someone to help, put upthe lights because there are a
whole bunch more lights now thatI need to create the scene.
so it's very filmic and, just,it's a whole different way of

(31:11):
working.
and this collaboration I verymuch enjoy because it's, not
only me, I mean, I make most ofthe decisions, but I really
count on everybody's good eyelike on set to help with little
things because I can't seeeverything so I'm so having the
right people around me a redcrew people I trust, that's

(31:33):
really important to me and soeverything changed in that way.
and also finding locations, andof course the actors who are or
the models that are going toportray the, uh, characters.
main character, the leadcharacter.
And for me, that's reallyimportant is to find that right
person.

(31:53):
And I think that's, that I excelin that, like in the casting
world.
And I find people all like allover the place on the street,
stores at home Depot.
I mean, I'll go up to anybody ifthey're, if I think that they're
right for, for the character.
and I'll approach people, andask them,

Raymond Hatfield (32:11):
Oh my gosh.
And sometimes

Dina Goldstein (32:13):
I get no's.

Raymond Hatfield (32:15):
Sure, I bet.

Dina Goldstein (32:16):
I get yes's, you know, sometimes I get people who
are, who the hell are you?
And so, and I still get that.
Yesterday I went photographingon the beach.
I've got a, ongoing project thatI'm working on here and I went
onto the beach by myselfyesterday.
And, still get people going new,new, new, new,

Raymond Hatfield (32:37):
right?
Right.
The beach is a surprisinglyvulnerable place for people, but
I want to get back to the, I hada question for you about, you
come up with these, theseconcepts for, and you've done
many of these projects, manycollections of images like this.
So my question for you is how doyou flesh out the ideas for the
images?
because you are the one incontrol building it, I show up

(32:58):
to a wedding I capture whateverhappens in front of my camera.
You have to build it.
So how do you come up with theconcepts for the individual?
Images themselves.
mean, obviously your,description of the Rapunzel
image right there fitsperfectly.
It, like, it, it fits in withyour life and where you were at
at that time, but let's go tosomething like, your Ten
Commandments project,

Dina Goldstein (33:19):
Yes.

Raymond Hatfield (33:20):
how do you decide, who you're going to
choose for something like thatand what it is that they're
going to be doing in thoseimages?
Yeah.

Dina Goldstein (33:26):
Yeah, I know.
It's like that decision is,could be really rough because
like, if I don't make the rightchoices, like the whole series
could be, for not.
And it takes me a year or two tocreate a whole series.
So it's really scary.
And yeah, it's like, of coursethinking that it might not work

(33:47):
out, but I don't even, I just, Idon't even think like that.
I just wipe it out of my head.
What I try to do is do one pieceat a time.
So each series.
has about, usually containsabout 10 to 12 images.
So I focus on one image at atime.
Like one, I mean of course I'vegot things in the background,

(34:09):
like I'm looking for a prop for,for Lincoln, while I'm, about to
shoot Truman.
Like we're talking about the TenCommandments, right?
So the Ten Commandments were,was inspired by the election of
Donald Trump.
And, kind of, our idealisticAmerica falling apart.
Well, I mean, It was neverideal.
We all know that, but there wassome sort of semblance of, of

(34:32):
America as this just great placeof opportunity and diversity,
and then you see a man like thiscoming in and totally,
destroying this image andbasically that was a response to
him.
And then when I started diggingin, I learned more and more
about each president and whatthey did while they were in

(34:55):
office and their legacy and soon and so forth.
So I tried to build scenariosaround that, that were relevant
to what's going on in the Statesnow.
And I used the format of the TenCommandments to, because I felt
that, There was too much, like,religious, interference.

(35:17):
with the right, and them usingand bringing up the Bible
constantly in regards to policyand the constitution.
So that's why I put it in thatformat, because I felt like a
lot of the presidents werebreaking those commandments and
that the commandments wereconstantly being broken.
So I kind of try to fit eachpresident and I'm not vilifying

(35:40):
any of the presidents, but noteverybody was perfect.
We know that Donald Trump wasgrossly imperfect, but not
everybody else was perfect aswell.
And that America wasn't, andhasn't been a perfect society,
just like, people idealize it.
So my main theme and all of mywork is disillusion,

(36:03):
disillusionment, yes.
And I think that people weredisillusioned with the United
States of America after Trumpcame in.

Raymond Hatfield (36:13):
so let me ask you a question then you, you
obviously have this goal, right?
The Ten Commandments, that's theframe of this project that you
got here.
So now do you go through themand then try to find a president
who fits and then try to find ascenario that fits or how does
the image come together?
Can you walk me through that?

Dina Goldstein (36:31):
Yes, so, so that's exactly what I did.
like I didn't only takepresidents that were kind of
known for, for their image, howthey look like, tall Abraham
Lincoln with a hat.
Everybody's going to recognizehim.
He's very recognizable.
It was hard because not all ofthem were instantly like, I

(36:53):
mean, They all the presidentsthat I chose ended up having
distinct look, you know that Ihad to recreate but yeah, they
all did kind of something thatkind of fell into that
Commandment or against thatcommandment.
So Yeah, so I had tospecifically choose the right
presidents for that So then I itthen when I find a president I'm

(37:16):
like And then I take thecommandment and then I try to
create a story, right?
A narrative that, will involve alot of elements, maybe a lot of
people, and then in a locationthat makes sense.
Most of my locations areoutdoors, I mean, sorry, not

(37:37):
outdoors, more on locationrather than studio.
So that plays a big, big part inwhat I do because that's, Like,
it's like my second character isthe location

Raymond Hatfield (37:49):
really right, right.
So I'm sure that, you know, aswell, I guess, first of all,
when new photographers get acamera, They think, I see the
photo in my head, I want to takeit, it doesn't turn out how I
want it.
For a project like this thattakes years to create, I would
love to know how close you getfrom the image that you have in

(38:12):
your head when you first start aproject to the final product, on
a scale from one to a hundred.
How close do you get to thatinitial idea that you had in
your head?

Dina Goldstein (38:21):
Pretty close.
I haven't like ditched any of myphotos because there's so much
and so much effort and so manypeople involved that go into my
photos that I just feel like Ihave to make it work.
Like I have to, it's got towork.
So I think once all theingredients, like if you have
all the like in regards tocooking.

(38:42):
I don't know, I'm using thatanalogy.
If you've got all the rightingredients and you put them,
you put love and care into itand they're all come together
and it'll become a good meal anda good meal, but if maybe one of
the ingredients is off, likeoutdated or whatever, could make
this for a stinky meal.

(39:02):
So basically, you have to getall your ducks in a row, in a
sense, Everything has to bereally, like, overplanned,
almost, to make it come togetherthe way that you want it.
But things happen, oh my gosh,so many things happen.
You just have to kind of, workthrough them.

(39:23):
For Washington, for instance, Ihad rented this, old age home
that had been closed down inyour facility.
and they gave us like two hoursto shoot in there or something.
It was crazy.
Like, I had to get this wholetableau done with, I think there
were five people in the shot,and, we came and the area that I

(39:46):
wanted to shoot at was full offurniture.
Oh.
Like they had.
Somehow, within a week, took allthe furniture in the whole place
and stacked it right on my set.
Oh my goodness.
Yes.
And when you have like fivepeople waiting for you, and
these are elderly people, like,I cast these, These people who

(40:08):
live in a artist's, retirementhome.
So it's an old age home forartists.
And so I had to like bring themall, together and, they're
elderly people.
And so, at that point you're,Yeah, your head feels like it's
about to explode, but then youfigure out solution.

(40:29):
Like I'm, I guess I'm good atfiguring things out when things
are like at their most,stressful.
I don't know how, why, but somepeople just break down and fall
apart.
And I don't, I kind of pickmyself together.
And I mean, I have all thesepeople that I'm responsible for.

(40:51):
And so I do for them.
I'm like, no, this shoot isgoing to happen.
I'm not sending these peoplehome.
it's going to happen somehow.
So it took us an hour to movethe furniture and I only had an
hour to shoot.

Raymond Hatfield (41:05):
And you made it happen.

Dina Goldstein (41:06):
And we had to just make it happen.

Raymond Hatfield (41:09):
Wow.
Wow.
I mean, again, that goes back.
What I was about to say is thatthat just goes back to the
tenacity is, is what I'm gettingfrom you is that that's how you
have to be to have longevity andto make your vision work.
Whatever that vision is, youhave to have it.

Dina Goldstein (41:26):
Yeah, yeah, you do have to have tenacity, but
there are all sorts ofcharacters, and there are all
sorts of photographers, andthat's why photography is so
beautiful, because I could be areally quiet person and make
really poetic and beautifulwork, really quiet work, or I
can do this Big, loud,explosive, colorful stuff, so I
think like, you don'tnecessarily have to be, have

(41:50):
tenacity, you just have to havetenacity to do what I'm doing,
you know, what I do, andbringing together these sets
with low budgets, fairly lowbudgets, I'm competing with film
industry here in Vancouver, and,with a lot of, creatives that
are going to the film industry,and a lot of, locations that
are, taken or super expensiveand stuff like that, but I think

(42:12):
like You just have to be who youare.
You don't have to you don'tnecessarily have to be like me,
but you do have to have somesort of stick with it You know
kind of mentality and that'sdifferent for a lot of people

Raymond Hatfield (42:29):
Yeah, I'm sure what I had just said might have
turned off some people.
So thank you for thatclarification, for sure.
I know that we are, right at theend of our time here that we had
scheduled.
Do you have time for two morequestions?
Yes, absolutely.
Okay, wonderful, wonderful.
always interested because, thetype of photography that you do
when it comes out of your ownhead, I don't even want to get

(42:53):
into the, like, amount of secondguessing you might have to do,
just in, in a single day on set,but as a, as an artist, I'm sure
that ideas are just constantlybrewing in your mind,
interesting ideas for, for photoprojects.
How do you decide what topicwins over another?

Dina Goldstein (43:17):
Well, I have to feel very strongly about it.
like all of my series.
we're inspired by something thatmeant something to me.
like gods of suburbia, depicts,religious characters.
And here I wanted to create aconversation about religion and

(43:37):
belief and the, the beliefsystem that, that is made up of
the collective, how we seethings, how we, how you and I
see.
The image of Jesus and why wesee the image of Jesus in the
same way, you know, and how popculture has contributed to the

(43:58):
images of, of these characters,of these religious characters.
And that was really interestingto me.
so I dug more into it and triedto understand why it meant so
much to me.
Because, I grew up, going to a,Jewish school with a Jewish
education and lots of biblical,storytelling.

(44:20):
So, the belief in thesupernatural and in these kind
of ancient stories has alwaysbeen interesting to me.
And so then I use that, to pushme forward make a decision, so
is this a topic that you'regoing to focus on and spend the

(44:43):
next few years on, it doesn'tmean that much to you.
Does that journey, thatexploration mean that much to
you?
And in this case, it did, andthen also a trip to India, where
there's so many gods and there'sso much reverence, that too,
just also added to myinspiration.

(45:03):
And after India, I made thedecision, absolutely.
I'm going to do this series,this series and depict.
like gods from differentcultures.

Raymond Hatfield (45:13):
Yeah.
And it's a really, I mean,thought provoking collection of
images.
It's really interesting to seelike where they might be today,
what they would look like.
And that's, that's reallyinteresting.
Have you ever had an idea thatdidn't, that you decided not to
pursue, but maybe there for awhile you, you were really
excited about it?

Dina Goldstein (45:30):
I have a lot of ideas, but then, like I said, I
don't want to do anything thatanyone else has done because to
me it's just kind of a waste oftime.
I want to do something like newand at least, mostly new to the
world and so much has alreadybeen done.
Right.
So if I have a good idea, likeI'll research it, I'll see maybe

(45:52):
someone else has, done similarwork or You know, I'll run it by
my friends or by Jonas, myspouse, and I kind of get a feel
for it.
But mostly everything that Ichoose is really intuitive.
Like, I just feel like this isit, this is what I have to kind

(46:13):
of dive into.
it's intuitive instinctualalmost.
And sorry, I just, yeah, justmake the decision.
I just, yes.
I had

Raymond Hatfield (46:24):
to write that down.
I thought.
sometimes after a long time ofdoing something, and I've
realized this just in hostingthe podcast.
And now that I'm formulatingwhat I'm about to say, it sounds
like a humble brag here, butit's like, I've been shooting
several years, and now there's agroup of listeners who, maybe
have questions for me.
And I think to myself often,like, Oh, well, this is like,
here's the answer.

(46:44):
Like, this is so easy to comeby.
and I think that that's becauselike, for me at this point,
it's, Kind of, as you said, likeinstinctual.
Like now I just know I have thetechnical ability.
Now I just know that that's whatneeds to happen.
And I've, part of me feels likesome of the questions that I'm
asking you, I'm not doingjustice with.
Because, answer from you arelike, you have to feel it.

(47:04):
Like, this is just like, thiscan't be answered.
This is just something that youhave to figure out on your own
to be able to do.
And that is, you have to

Dina Goldstein (47:13):
have your technical knowledge too, though.
You can't, it can't all beintuitive.
You have to have the intuitionand the technical knowledge and
the two come together, tocreate.
special work, work that standsout, work that touches people
that connects with people.

(47:34):
So it's not one or the other.
It's really like a combinationof both.
And like, if you took me outright now, I could tell you, I
don't need a light meter.
I could tell you what theexposure is, like, I just, like,
I know it.
I feel it.
I feel the light.
It's part of me.
And.

(47:55):
If you look at all, if you lookat people who love photography
and you look at their phones andyou just go into their photos,
you'll see all these crazypictures of like things, shadows
and colors and things that makeno sense to everybody else.
But it's just things that we seebecause we see it where our eyes

(48:18):
are open and therefore we seeit.

Raymond Hatfield (48:21):
That was a great explanation.
Again, I think you took myjumbled up terrible question and
turned it into something that,that I know that there's a
lesson in there that obviouslythose listening are going to
truly appreciate.
So thank you.
But my last question here foryou before I let you go, I want
you to talk to me about yourarchive, from musicians, famous
faces, your documentary work,travel, and all of these series.

(48:43):
You truly have a lot to offer.
I mean, like you've, transformedinto several different
photographers, throughout yourcareer, which makes this archive
like really interesting to lookat now as a wedding
photographer, I'm not reallyfamiliar with the concept of
posting an entire archive.
Now, is this every photo thatyou've ever taken or is it
curated down?

(49:03):
Tell me about what the goal is.
Of

Dina Goldstein (49:05):
course, of course.
No, no, I had to spend, I spentthe year going through piles and
piles and piles of negatives andpicking out the ones that I felt
were, special or relevant insome sort of way.
And, now I think we've ended upwith almost 3000, which is not a

(49:26):
lot for 30 years of photography.
When you think about it, becauseI've spent a lot of my time
doing commercial work, like Iwasn't always photographing.
I was.
shooting advertising, I wasshooting, magazine work and
newspaper work and that kept mebusy.
So this, this is kind of thestuff that I did on the weekend

(49:48):
or, because I had my camera withme and I saw this picture.
and some of them are actuallyfrom assignments.
Like some of the portraits arefrom assignments and then the
travel, of course, I love totravel.
I love different cultures andI'd love to experience.
Different, places and people andjust to, soak in the culture.

(50:09):
I love that.
So, I got to do that later with,traveling with my artwork
because I was invited to,festivals and be in alleys with
my work.
So really, in the past 10 years,I've done a lot of traveling.
And that's just really fun.
So, I mean, I'll always have mycamera with me ready to go.

(50:33):
Yesterday, I actually pulled outa film camera and, like I told
you at the beginning, I went tothe beach and, that was
different because, of course,you don't have the instant
gratification.
And, of course I'm nervous abouthow my film is going to work
out.

Raymond Hatfield (50:50):
Full circle.

Dina Goldstein (50:51):
Yeah.
Full circle.
Exactly.
But, yeah, I mean, I, I thinklike always be open, always
experiment and be willing tomake mistakes and be willing to
just jump in and do it.
Just jump in and, of coursepeople feel, have fear, and,
fear of failure, fear of, Notdoing the best work you can, but

(51:12):
you have to fight that fear.
You have to push through it.
And on the other side, it couldbe good.
It could be bad.
You never know, but at least youdid it.
At least you like you, movethrough it, you know, move
through that stuff, otherwise doyou, you really get stalled and
that's what everything in life,I think not only photography,

(51:34):
it's just a life lesson too.
I mean, I view like everyday isamazing because I really feel
that, we only have one life andthat's it.
So if you, feel like me.
And I mean, if you, I don't knowhow to say this without sounding
so rough, but if you feel like,there's another world waiting

(51:56):
for you or another life waitingfor you, maybe you kind of, have
a different attitude about life,but I just feel like this is it,
right?
This is it.
This is now.
and so.
Just go for it.

Raymond Hatfield (52:08):
I love it.
was there anything that you weresurprised to, to discover about
maybe yourself as a photographerwhile going through your entire
archive, both physical and, anddigital negatives?

Dina Goldstein (52:18):
I think that it was really fun going down, like
memory lane and remembering allthese shoots, like I remembered
all the details with portraitsand even some street stuff.
You know what my circumstances.
Were at that time.
It just brings back a lot ofmemories and, going back to
collect all these images wasreally good for me because it

(52:39):
just makes me, feel like moreorganized.
Like before I just like, ifanything happened to me.
I don't think anybody would knowwhat to do with this stuff.
I just feel like now I could,not that I'm, I'm thinking that
anything will happen, but atleast it's all organized.
And I feel really good that Ican leave this, this legacy,

(53:02):
like a little more cleaned upand organized, just in case
anything happens or, just forthe future and now I can really
work on my book.
in a very, concise way, becausenow that I've collected all
these images, I would have neverbeen able to work on a book
without doing this process,actually.
So, I mean, that's the finalresult.

(53:23):
I really would like to publish abook with all of these works.
So, in a sense, I've collectedthem now, and it's an easier
process.

Raymond Hatfield (53:34):
Well, I am excited for when the book comes
out.
Be sure to take my name and mynumber.
I'm going to give you my creditcard information because I want
a copy.
That's going to be my first.
Yes, absolutely.
Absolutely.
Dina, again, thank you forcoming on being open, being
honest, sharing everything thatyou did and obviously staying
later than we had anticipatedbefore I let you go.

(53:54):
Can you let the listeners knowwhere they can learn more about
you and find you online?

Dina Goldstein (53:59):
Absolutely.
So I have a website.
It's Just my name, DinaGoldstein dot com.
you can look through thecollections that we were talking
about today, and there's also anarchive tab.
You can go into the archive andit's divided into categories.
I think it's pretty easy tonavigate.

Raymond Hatfield (54:20):
Check

Dina Goldstein (54:21):
that out.
All right.
Today's action item being theone thing that if you implement
it today, will move the needleforward in your photography, is
this, create a mini editorialassignment.
Yeah, this should be fun.
Assign yourself some sort ofmini editorial project.
And to do that you start withpicking a theme.
Maybe it's your morning routine,maybe it's local car culture,

(54:43):
maybe it's pets at play,something like that.
And then think it out.
What are the type of images thatwould communicate the message
that you're trying to say aboutthat thing?
What is the goal of your morningroutine?
What does connection look likein your local car culture?
How do people interact when petsare playing?
Again, think it out.
What would be the images thatwould communicate what it is

(55:07):
that you're trying to say, andthen set some sort of
constraint.
Maybe just shoot five to 10images and then stick to it.
Yeah, these should be photosthat you feel an editor could
use for a magazine spread.
The images should tell a story.
It's not about technicalperfection.
It's about creating images thatcan tell a story together and

(55:30):
then give yourself some sort oflike, a half day deadline.
Like, don't let this grow intothis year long project.
Like just create it.
because this is not aboutcreating earth shattering work.
It's about getting you to seethe world photographically and
taking action'cause otherwiseyou just listen to this whole
interview for nothing.

(55:50):
Don't do that.
Take action.
All right, that is it for today.
Until next time, remember, themore that you shoot today, the
better of a photographer you'llbe tomorrow.
Talk soon.