Lighting and Composition Mega Episode: Photography’s Ultimate Essentials

Episode Transcript
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Ave Pildas (00:00):
Everybody gets something that you're born with
and once you identify that, thenyou can develop it.
And that's what's going to makeyou happy.
You just have to follow that.
You don't have to try and besomebody else.
You just have to recognize whatyou are and the gift that you've
been given and you develop thatand never give up.

Raymond Hatfield (00:22):
Hey, welcome to the beginner photography
podcast.
I'm your host, Raymond Hatfield.
And today we have anotherspecial mega episode where we're
diving deep into one of the mostcrucial, yet creative aspects of
photography, light andcomposition.
Yeah.
These two elements are thefoundation of every great
photograph.
And in today's episode, we'regoing to take you far beyond the

(00:43):
basics.
But first the beginnerphotography podcast is brought
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(01:04):
So what makes this a megaepisode?
Well, for one, it's a long onebecause I've compiled several
interviews from the past thatfocus specifically on lighting
and composition.
So if you struggle.
Over the course of this episode,you're going to hear from expert
photographers who excel increating depth, creating
emotion, and telling a storythrough their strategic use of

(01:25):
light and carefully balancedcompositions.
And by the end of today, I thinkthat you're going to leave with
a stronger understanding of howto manipulate light to enhance
your subjects, how to composeyour shots with purpose.
And how to create photographsthat connect with viewers on a
deeper level.
So I really hope that you areready to unlock these new skills

(01:46):
that are going to bring yourphotos to life.
And you know what, I want to bea part of your journey.
So come join me and thethousands of other photographers
looking to learn photography,you know, all that we can to
create incredible images in thefree and amazingly supportive
beginner photography podcastcommunity.
You can join us right now byheading over to
beginnerphotopod.
com forward slash group I hopeto see you there.

(02:10):
So first up today is myinterview with portrait
photographer and just lightingmaster Chris Duncan Who is gonna
teach you how to create depthand dimension in your images by
strategically arranging thingslike highlights mid tones and
shadows on your subjects face.
You're going to learn about theimportance of modifying light
and the impact of the relativesize of the light source on the

(02:32):
quality of light in your photos.
Chris is going to guide you onpositioning umbrellas
effectively explaining thedifference between bounce and
translucent umbrellas and howtheir orientation affects the
lighting of your subject.
There's a ton in this one, soget ready.
When did light become animportant element in photography

(02:53):
for you?
You've been shooting for a longtime.
When did you know that light wasgoing to be your thing?

Cris Duncan (02:57):
Man, I'm starting off deep.
I'm not sure when I knew exactlylight was going to be important.
I had taken I knew I wanted mywork to improve.
I was enjoying photography.
I'd kind of been dabbling in itfor a while.
It's something that, I've kindof wanted to do.
I've enjoyed since I was a kid.
I was into my married life.

(03:17):
We had a young child and kind ofwanted to make it a business.
And that was around 2001?
2000?
No, yeah, 2002.
Sometime around then.
But anyway, later on, I justknew my work.
I wanted to improve it.
And so I started taking somecourses, and one of the first
ones I went to was from TonyCorbell, who, hopefully some of

(03:39):
your listeners know who he is.
If they don't, they need to lookhim up.
He's at the sunset years of hiscareer now, but he was a big
influence, for a lot ofphotographers, in my generation
and the one above me, justteaching light and how it can
impact a scene.
And I took classes from himprobably six times.
Really.
Wow.
Yes.

(03:59):
Just'cause he taught so much,his wealth of knowledge was so
expansive and my first time Icould only grab like a 10th of
it or a 5th you know, I justdidn't have the capacity to get
all of it.
So I had to go back and revisitto get a little more and a
little more and a little more.
so he definitely played a biginfluence in lighting for me.

(04:20):
and now we're close friends andgo on vacations together and
have dinners together.
So that's, been really fun.

How fun, how fun.
I love that about photography,the ability to, create those
connections.
And yes, for sure.
Unknowingly, in the beginning,it's, it's, Oh, interesting.
This

is such an open profession.
It's such a sharing profession,and I'm sure there's some that
are tight lipped and cleaveeverything to their vest, but
man, most, the majority ofpeople just want to see great
work and great images and beinspired by it, and so they
share so that can happen andspread.
I

totally agree.
Totally agree.
So, when you're taking, say thatfirst class on lighting, right,
I'm sure that you left superexcited or super overwhelmed,
you know, probably a little bitof both.
when you got home and you tookout the flash and you got to
work, was it as easy as Tony hadmade it look, or did you fall
into some, uh, trial?

(05:14):
No, it

wasn't even close.
You know, it's like, I don'tknow.
I don't know what sport youfollow, but I, I, I really,
Baseball.
Okay.
Well, I enjoy golf and there'sprobably some similarities to
it.
Is it you watch a pro game or apros?
Those guys get up there andlike, Oh, that looks so simple,
right?
I can do that.
and you visualize it in yourhead.

(05:35):
Like, well, next time I'm at themound or next time I'm at the
bat.
I know what to do.
It's just a disaster.
So it was kind of that same waywith me.
too much of my, I had so much ofmy mental capacity trying to
think my way through theprocesses.
I think that that bogged downthe natural and instinctive

(05:59):
ability that was probably insideme.
It just hasn't blossomed yet.
And so that's something now Ipass on to my students is like
sitting in a chair or listeningto watching a YouTube video or
hearing a podcast.
That's great.
That's a good first step, butthat's not where it ends.
You then have to, you have toimplement it.
You have to practice it becausethat's where it becomes

(06:21):
manifest.
You can't just watch a Dodgersgame and say, okay, now I can
play great baseball.
You have to go and you have to,practice it.
and then you have to revisit it.
Just like I had to go to Tony'sclass again.
I had forgotten some of thetechniques cause I was so bogged
down on maybe this one.
And I had to keep refillingthat, that tank and practice it,

(06:41):
of course.
So it wasn't, it didn't comeeasy.
it probably took about a year,which may be a gulp moment for
some of your listeners, to whereI really felt that it became
instinctive.

A year before it really felt instinctive,
instinctive, as far as likeusing it.
were you using it in a,commercial setting or was this
for just personal photos?

Oh, it was all commercial.
It was all for our business.
And what I mean by instinctiveis where you becomes almost
second nature.
You don't have to think aboutit, right?
You just kind of set it up byinstinct.
You're like, okay, I know thisis going to work.
It's predictable.
I've practiced it enough thatthis is the result I'm going to
get.

I see.
So I know that, you've obviouslycome a long way because today
you teach lighting, yourworkshops as well are helping
countless other photographers.
But I know that one thing that,a lot of beginners struggle with
when you talk about light, theireyes kind of glaze over and
they're like, what are youtalking about?
Like there's light everywhere.
I don't, I don't understand whatyou mean by, phrases like see
the light.
Can you help us To betterunderstand the importance of

(07:44):
learning how to use light.

well, you're correct.
Light is everywhere.
but it may not be the lightthat's most flattering to your
subjects or the light that's inthe best position to render
detail and texture and depth andshape.
So what I've had to do is createa hierarchy.
And what I mean by hierarchy isand everyone has a different

(08:08):
hierarchy.
mine isn't the correct one.
It's not necessarily the wrongone either, but it's just what I
put value on.
And so when I'm looking atlighting, there's kind of a
list.
I want to make sure it achievesand if it can achieve these
three objectives, and I feellike I've worked on my job, one
is I want to make sure itprovides enough contrast.
well, let me say it makes up forthe difference to what my I can

(08:29):
see in my camera can recordbecause those are two different
values.
We've probably all seen abeautiful scene and take a
picture and you're like, thatlooks nothing like what's in
front.
Yeah.
so what are I can record is somuch greater than what our
camera can record and even whatour paper can print.
Which really comes down to fivestops of dynamic range.
So one, I want my lighting to beable to be in a workable

(08:52):
contrast that the print looks,looks nice and acceptable.
I want to make sure it hasshape, depth, and form that I
see three dimensional, contextin the two dimensional media.
And then finally, if possible, Iwant it to try to enhance the
story that we're trying to tell.
And so that's kind of myhierarchy I work through.
I can achieve those.

(09:14):
Then I've satisfied my needs andI've probably satisfied the
client's needs or exceeded them.
Sure.
Sure.

How is it that using artificial light does

that?
well on the, on the first partabout making up for the
difference when our eyes sees inthe camera can record is what I
think a lot of beginningphotographers, it's a hard
concept to grasp it's, it's justis, but when you do, it's really
freeing is that most of us, alot of photographers understand
the exposure triangle and howit's conversely relative to each

(09:45):
other.
So if we're just in an ambientsituation.
And we decide to change ourshutter speed, our aperture has
to change the opposite directionto balance out the light.
Right, so it still staysbalanced and I call it the
exposure balance and not theexposure triangle, to balance.
But when we add artificiallighting, and I don't mean like
constant lighting, I mean, anelectronic flash, a brief and

(10:07):
brilliant burst of light thatcomes from a strobe or an
electronic flash.
Those two.
Exposure controls becomeseparated.
So now our flash intensity orour flash brightness stays
consistent on whatever it hits.
So let's say it's, I know you doa lot of wedding photography.
So let's say it's the bride andgroom outside of their venue and
it's a beautiful day.

(10:28):
So you light them with offcamera flash.
That intensity is going to staythe same every time it fires.
So as long as your clients arein that flash, Cone of light,
their exposure is consistent.
So now your shutter speed can gofaster or slower to adjust the
sunlight or the ambient lightsin the space.
And that's where it becomes sopowerful to help me control that

(10:49):
contrast because now I canreally, I mean, in layman's
terms, I can control the sun.
To an extent that way, or I cancontrol the brightness of the
reception or the brightness ofthe home or whatever place we
happen to be.

So, I appreciate you, you sharing
that, that next question forbeginners.
once they understand and I'msure that they've heard,
balancing or expose for theambient and then add in your
flash so that you can get allthat exposure.
Yes.
The next question I always seemto hear is why even bother
taking the flash off camera?
What is that going to do for ourphotos?

Okay, well, that that hits my 2nd priority,
right?
My, my hierarchy, which is tocreate shape form and dimension
and try to render a 3dimensional quality on a 2
dimensional media.
And so that means we have tohave highlight mid tones and
shadows.
So, the more we can get it offcamera into a.
45 or greater angle from camerato subjects.

(11:46):
We're going to introduce ashadow that's visible.
there's a shadow, there's ashadow there.
If the light's on camera, it'sjust on the back of the person.
So you don't see it.
So I want to move that shadowaround to the side at some point
to give me that depth.

And I know that this is kind of hard to
talk about because this is a, isan audio based podcast, right?
People and then trying to figurethis out in their head, but
like, why would you want shadowon somebody's face?
Are we talking hard raccooneyes?
like what does that look likefrom your perspective?

well, sticking to portraits.
Cause I'm, I'm assuming that'sprobably where a lot of your
listeners are.
I'm looking for.
For those three things I wanthighlight, which is the
brightest part of face, the midtone, which is the natural part
of the face, and then theshadow, which is the darkest
part of the face.
I want all three of those, itemson five parts of the face.

(12:37):
It's the five planes, that's theforehead, the nose, both cheeks,
and the chin.
So the shadows aren't raccooneyes, the shadows aren't, half
the face is in light and halfthe face is in shadow.
I'm trying to make sure I havegood light and on the forehead,
the nose, both cheeks and thechin.
And I call those the five planesof the face.
And that's what, gives us thedimension.

(12:58):
And, I'm sure a lot of yourlisteners took art class in
third grade or second grade, andthat may be recent for some, it
may be a long time ago forothers, but in my art class, we
drew a circle and it just lookedlike a circle.
And then you shade one side ofit and it starts looking like a
ball.
Right.
It starts having thatdimensionality.
And then so one side is brightand one side gradually gets

(13:19):
shaded and that's the same thingwith photography.
I want to create that shading togive me depth without the
shadows.
You don't have it.
And if you're photographingsomething that's dark tone,
darker skin or dark clothing,then you need highlights.
You don't, on Caucasian skin.
You see the shadows that rendershape.
That's how your eye perceives iton darker skin.

(13:42):
You see the highlights that helprender shape.
They're both present It's justrelative to the tone.
It's on so that's what I'mlooking for

Oh, that's like that's next level stuff to
try to imagine there in yourhead when getting started Yeah,
so then kind of walk me througha little bit I guess before we
move forward because I got somequestions specifically about
like Modifiers and whatnot aswell.
We're going to add on to thatconversation.
But before we get into that forsomebody brand new, right.

(14:11):
All that they've ever usedbefore is just their camera.
What are kind of some of themost basic components that they
need just to get started with,taking their flash

off of camera.
Okay, well, before we even takethe flash off the camera, I
think there's 2 items that aphotographer needs when they're
going to be working on location,which means outdoors or at a
venue, not in a controlledenvironment, like a studio would
be, I would get some type ofreflector.
I'll just pop out reflector.
You know, it's usually white onone side.

(14:40):
Maybe it's silver or gold on theother.
It could be black.
I like the white and black ones.
I think you need one of those.
Why?
why do we need the reflectorwith the white side, the black
side, and then the translucentside?
What will that do for us?
Okay, well, the reflector willallow you to control the amount
of light that hits the shadowside.
So we're going to assume now,based on our previous

(15:02):
conversation, that we're goingto put some type of directional
light where we see shadow.
Well, maybe the shadow is toodark to your liking or to your
client's preference.
So the reflector will help.
Bounce light back into thatshadow side of the face,
reducing the density of theshadow.
The black side would actuallyincrease the density of the
shadow.

(15:23):
So if you want more shadow, somaybe you're in a place that
it's really flat lighting andyou need to try to introduce
Like an overcast day or openshade.
You need to introduce moredepth.
The black side helps you dothat.
Okay.
And that's just without usingflash.

Right?
Yeah, I know.
That's why.
So this is like, if somebody'strying to picture it in their
head, we have a person in frontof our camera and say off to the
left.
We have a flash, but then, orno, I take that back off to the
left.
We have our son, right?
It's just, it's the ambientlight.
And then off to the right, wehave a reflector here.
All right.
So we're almost placing them inthe middle of like this sandwich

(15:58):
between light and the reflector.
is that about right?
That's a pretty good visual

for it.
Yes.

I figured I would try to introduce some sort
of food reference since we seemto just do this naturally every
time we, uh, Yes, we do.
Yeah.
Okay.
So the person is the meat of thesandwich, the, the sun, and then
the reflector there, the bread,the light is the bread.
Yes.
Okay.
Now let's talk about thetranslucent, aspect as

well.
Okay, so the way thetranslucence does is it helps
you modify the size.
Of the sun.
so maybe they're in dappledlight under a tree.
Maybe the light is too harsh andthey comfortably can't even keep
their eyes open to get a niceportrait.
The diffusion scrim, allows thesun to transmit through it.
Translucent, right?
To transmit through it.

(16:42):
and that will soften the lightsource because it makes it
bigger and it gives us just alittle bit more control on how
the light impacts the face.
But those are two reallyaffordable tools.
to start using granted, you needsomeone to hold those for you.

Not as cheap, but hopefully if you have a
child, then you have some cheaplabor who might do it, milkshake
or something.
There you go.
okay.
So now, getting into the flashside of it, right?
So we know that we need a flash,like what else

is there anything else that we need?
Since it's off camera, you'regoing to need something that
tells that the camera tells theflasher ready for it to fire
some type of radio transmitteror a cord or some type of way to
get the signal from the camerato the flash that I want you to
fire at this when I press theshutter button, a lot of cameras
and flashes have those built innow.
So if you're a cannon shooter, acannon flash will communicate.

(17:31):
then you need some type of standor another assistant to hold
that flash.
You can't just set it on theground and have it point up in
the air.
Gotta have some type of, sometype of support, mechanism to
hold it.
And then as far as a modifier, Ialways tell my students get the
largest one they can afford andthey feel safe using.
I mean, and the Plains of WestTexas, An umbrella bigger than

(17:54):
four feet is really, it's reallyhard to maintain.
I mean, it catches a lot ofwind.
so I would use maybe an Octaboxor something outside, but, the
problem with the flash in my,and when I say flash, I'm
thinking on camera, flash thatunit that can go on your camera.
It can go off is it's just.
That light source is alwaysgoing to look the same until you

(18:15):
modify it.
No matter how far away you putit or how close you put it, or
if you put it to the left or theright or off to the side, it's
such a direct intense lightsource.
It's always going to produce avery crisp and hard light
quality.
is that not natural?
Is that why you want to changethat?
I wouldn't say it's not natural.

(18:36):
Our experience has been thatit's not as flattering because
it It reveals more imperfectionsin the skin because it
introduces a more definedshadow.
So if you have raised texture onyour skin through wrinkles or
acne or, eczema or anything likethat, it's gonna, exaggerate
that.
Whereas a softer shadow willdiminish that.

(18:58):
So I see a softer shadow througha modifier.
Is that right?
The larger, the light source wecan get, the softer we can
create the shadow to be.
so you could even use thattranslucent diffuser.
We just talked about and placeit in front of your flash, just
like you would the sun andenlarge that source.

Okay, so let's go there because that part of
the conversation I was ready tohave a little bit later, because
I feel like the size of a lightsource can be a very hard thing
for new photographers to grasp.
In fact, when I was in filmschool, it was a hard thing for
me to grasp, like the larger thelight source, the better the
light.
And I could never, I neverunderstood it until I actually

(19:37):
saw it, but those who maybetheir brain works a little bit
better than mine, you can help,describe why the physical size
of a light source Is important.

Yeah.
I will try to do it the best Ican on an audio podcast.
Yeah.
All we can do is try.
All we can do is try.
We can always try.
Let's just stick with portraits,right?
And think of the average size ofthe human head, right?
So maybe the size of a footballor a soccer ball, right?
Depending on how slender orchubby the person may be.
Okay.
and most human heads are aboutthe same size.

(20:11):
Once they hit probably,adolescence.
Okay.
So let's look at that squarefootage.
Let's just call it one squarefoot.
A face is one square, but we'rejust going to call it that.
Well, our flash, if we just useour flash, it's about five
square inches, six squareinches, right?
It's two by three, two by four,you know, three by four,
something like that.
so that's a big differencebetween one square foot and six

(20:33):
square inches.
So that size, relative sizedifference is great.
So that smaller size of thelight compared to the larger
size of the subject is going toproduce A very defined shadow
edge, very crisp shadow, likeyou would get on the sun when
you go out on a bright, sunnyday.
So if we can use a four footumbrella or a three foot octabox

(20:56):
or one of those pop outtranslucents that now is maybe,
let's see, maybe eight squarefeet.
Well, that's quite larger thanour one square foot face.
And so it's not just how big thesource is, it's how big it is
relative to our subject.
And so, I just try to alwayslook at it as really relative

(21:17):
space, right?
is this light source physicallybigger than my subject?
If it is, you should startseeing softer light quality.
If it's smaller than my subject,you will get crisp defined light
quality.

So the physical size isn't enough.
Right.
We can have a four foot, youknow, say umbrella, but if it's
relative size is smaller, sayit's like 40 feet away, correct.
We're still going to get, saythe same effect as if it was
just a bear flash, a foot awayfrom our subject.

Does that, is that correct?
Yeah, it's size relative todistance, but most photographers
won't put it 40 feet away.
They're going to end up placingit about six to seven feet away,
maybe a little, you know,somewhere in that range.

is there some sort of, I don't know if there
is or not, I've never reallythought of this.
Is there some sort ofmathematical equation to
determine what the relevant sizeof a light source should be?
Obviously it's a bit subjective,to your subject.
I

would think it would just be trigonometry.
You'd have to draw some type.
So let's really get thiscomplicated.
Go.
It's the co-sign of the tangentto the adjacent angle of the
light being, you lost me Youtotally lost me.
You know, some I don't know oflike a quick mathematical
formula.
you know what I tell mystudents?
it's kinda like when you standfar away from something, I can

(22:35):
pinch your, you know, you canpinch someone's head in this
little bitty space between yourthumbs.
Yeah.
You know.
or you've seen those perspectivephotos where someone looks like
they're holding up the leaningtower of Pisa.
Well, they have to be a long wayaway to do that, to change that
relative size.
So that makes the leaning towerof Pisa look really small
compared to that person, right?
If they get closer to it, Thenthey can't have that same person

(22:56):
that same relative look becauseit's obviously larger.
Yeah, and so

is that I do this trick with my kids Because
they always love to see you knowevery every once in a while
There will be a moonrise in theevening and they're like look at
how big the moon is like why isthe moon so much?
bigger Like in the evening thanit is, you know when it's say
it's midnight and it's in thetop of the sky And I had them do
this experiment where it waslike, if you just take your

(23:24):
pinky, right?
And you hold it out at arm'slength, you can cover up the
moon with just your pinky.
Your pinky nail whether it's andthat's how you'll know that when
it's at the horizon It's theexact same size as it is when
it's up in the sky It justappears different and I think
for them that helped tounderstand like oh Maybe being

(23:45):
surrounded by trees or likeother buildings changes.
It's Perceived relative size.
I suppose correct.
Yeah But I thought that wasinteresting.
So when it comes to usingsomething like an umbrella,
right, because an umbrella is, Imean, for most photographers,
it's the first modifier thatthey buy, it's one of the
cheapest.
It can fold down very small.

(24:06):
They can take it with themwherever they go.
And then it can also open uplarge.
Right.
So, is an umbrella even like agood modifier to use?
Because with how cheap they are,does that mean that they're
garbage quality?
Like from your perspective, isthat a good starting

modifier?
Absolutely.
I think they are.
and they sometimes are includedin a, in a starter kit.
Right.
and they're just, less expensivebecause they cost less to
manufacture.
Right.
It's just passing the savings onto the customer per se.
I think an umbrella is a, is agreat modifier, and we could
spend a whole podcast on whichmodifier is appropriate for
which job.

(24:40):
And you could get 10photographers in here and
probably have 10 differentopinions on that.
but an umbrella will definitely,you know, Create a larger size
if that's your, if you want toget off of the look you always
have from just an off cameraflash, you're going to have to
modify it.
And an umbrella is an easy wayto modify it without a lot of
different type of attachmentsand rigs to connect it.

(25:03):
it's hard to put a soft box, abig soft box and a flash that
gets really complicated.
It's not complicated to put alarge umbrella onto a flash.
You just need one little piece,an umbrella adapter that
connects to your stand and yourflash and you're done.
And that's probably a 15 piece.
I mean, so that's veryaffordable as well.

So then I think my mind, the question
becomes, how do we get the bestlooking photos out of an
umbrella before we should beinvesting in something like a
soft box or a different type ofmodifier?

well, for one, it increases the size so that
that's already going to giveyou, and I'm not saying it's a
better light quality, it's justgoing to be a softer light
quality, which at for portraitstends to be more pleasing on the
client's end.
The hard shadows just.
Somehow don't seem to be asaccepted.
At least that's been ourexperience.

(25:52):
You know, everybody's different.
Every client's different.
and it allows you to maybephotograph more than 1 person in
nice, consistent lighting whenyou have a larger light source.
and this, yeah, so, I mean, Ithink it's the ease of setting
up.
It's going to help.
We still want it on a direction.
So we still want to introducehighlight, mid tone and shadows
still want those.

(26:12):
I think your listeners if theyhaven't done this before, would
be quite surprised at thedifference.
It would make and it'snoticeable.
There's a lot of things thatgive you a subtle difference And
it takes more than a tuned eyeto kind of see that but this is
like whoa.
This is a big This is a bigdifference.
Where have you been all my lifetype thing?

That's what I said to my wife.
So let's imagine Photographers,right?
They get their flash for thefirst time, they get their
umbrella, they get the adapterto be able to mount the two
together.
Now what?
Are we just putting it right infront of us?
Right behind us?
Like, where do we position thisto just say that we're just
photographing one person rightnow?

Okay.

That flash go, how do we get a good photo?

I think a good starting point is 45 degrees.
So if you draw a line betweenyour camera and your subject,
that's your one line.
So 45 degrees to the left orright of that, positioned
towards your subject, that'sgoing to automatically introduce
highlight, mid tone and shadowat that 45 degrees.
And about 6 feet away, armslength away.

(27:13):
I'm doing all these motions likepeople can see me, uh, you know,
like arms length away.
That's a good starting point.
And then from there you can dofine little adjustments, but
that'll introduce you somereally nice quality light.
That's going to be sellable andpleasing almost 99 percent of
the time.

So, is this something that like you set up
in a park or is this likespecifically just a studio
thing?
Like, where can you set this up?

I think you can set it up anywhere.
In a park, obviously be wary ofthe wind.
That's going to be your, yourbiggest component with an
umbrella outside.
So you may need someone to stillhold that and to keep it, keep
it steady or sandbags.
And, you know, then you're justgetting into, heavier stands.
I mean, there's lots ofdifferent ways to secure it, or
in the studio or go to someone'shome or a wedding venue, hotel.

(28:02):
wedding chapel, all thedifferent venues they have for
that.
Absolutely.
you can set one up and tear itdown and, probably longer than
it takes you to set up your, Imean, less time than it takes
you even set up your camera.
Yeah.
Yeah, for sure.

Okay.
I got a question for you andthis is going to be like, again,
day one.
minute one of setting up thisflash and umbrella setup.
Cause I just realized, or justremembered rather, that I had
seen this in a Netflix showonce, and I thought to myself,
what in the world are theydoing?
When you set up the stand andthe flash and the umbrella, what

(28:36):
direction should it be pointing?
Should the flash be pointed intothe umbrella, which is, In
between the flash and yoursubject, or should it be turned
around to then bounce the lightfrom the umbrella onto your
subject?
Does that make sense?

Yes.
Well, there's two types of mainumbrellas.
There's one that's called thebounce umbrella, where the
outside of it is going to beblack and the inside is going to
be some type of reflectivematerial, white or silver.
I prefer the white ones.
then there's a translucentumbrella where the whole
umbrella is this.
kind of shower curtain whitematerial.
If you're using the bounceumbrella, black on outside,

(29:17):
white on the inside, I point theshaft of the umbrella towards my
subject.
So the flash is pointing awayfrom the subject into the
umbrella, and then it bouncesback.
If I'm using the umbrella that'sshower curtain material
translucent, then the shaft ofthe umbrella is facing away from
my subjects.
The flash is still oriented thesame.

(29:38):
It's still into the umbrella.
Either, either one I use, theflash is still.
Going into the opening of theumbrella, just if it's bounced,
the shaft and umbrella pointstowards the subject.
If it's translucent, it pointsaway from the subject.

Perfect.
from your end, like what's thedifference between those two and
how should somebody decide ifthey're just getting started?

the difference between those two is really how
the light exits the modifier.
it's going to exit it relativeto its shape.
And I know that we're gettingreally complicated maybe for
radio, but since the translucentis going to be more dumb shaped,
it's going to send light in 180degrees.
Anywhere that it's translucent,the light leaves it in that

(30:18):
direction.
And so the balance is not quiteas dome shaped.
So it leaves it, more narrowwhere the translucent will leave
it much wider.

So what does that look?
Is that just a change in, shadowon the subject's face or what?

It could be a change in the subject space.
You know, if you're in a,wedding venue and there's white
ceilings, the translucent one isnice because it's going to send
light up to because that domeshape is facing the ceiling,
facing your subject and facingthe floor.
So, it's going to send light tothe floor.
It's going to send light to theceiling, which may give you a
greater range that that lightis.

(30:54):
Is effective where a bounceumbrella sends a much narrower
beam of light that it may nothit the ceiling or the floor,

right?
This a hard question.
Is there a hard and fast rulefor when to use each one?
Or is it could you use both foreither?

Absolutely.
I think you could use both.
I wouldn't say they'reinterchangeable because there
are those subtle differences.
but either one of them wouldyield, yield good results.
I prefer a bounce umbrella.
Personally.
I think the light leaving it ismore efficient, meaning it's
more consistent across itsoutput from like edge to edge of

(31:31):
the light or a translucent tendsto have a brighter center and a
darker edge.
So you get more of a hotspot.
With the light leaving atranslucent, then you do a
bounce.

So, I'm just working through this one.
I haven't really been in thissituation.
I haven't used a bounce umbrellabefore.
Would a bounce umbrella bebetter for, say, group
portraits, rather than just likea, say, a single headshot or
something?

I can't, man.
Uh, my answer is usually, itdepends.
Right?

just from your perspective, let's say that we
had, you know, a family of five,right?
And they're getting together,you, you need to illuminate them
somehow.
what would you Chris Duncanchoose?

I would use a bounce umbrella.
Again, because the center, theway, just the way the light hits
the umbrella and, bounces backand comes out of it, it's more
efficient from, I say corner tocorner, but it's round from edge
to edge, the middle, most, mostmodifiers or the center is
brighter than the edge.
That's just the nature.

(32:31):
That's the science and thephysics of it.
A bounce umbrella seems to makethose differences less.
And a shoot through umbrella.

Gotcha.
Let's say somebody is gettingstarted.
maybe they know how to use theircamera.
They know how to control it.
They've even used flash before alittle bit.
and they're getting startedshooting weddings, right?
They're going to take theirflash to a wedding and now it's
time for family photos, youknow, up at the altar.
This was something that in thebeginning I struggled with,
cause I would only bring theone.

(33:00):
Umbrella with me and I, youknow, everything on the right
side of my frame, they were verywell lit everybody on the left
side of my frame.
Not so much.
Sorry, grandma.
Right.
what's the answer to that?
Is it changing the modifier oris it multiple umbrellas?

both I would stick with an umbrella in that
scenario, just because it's soeasy to set up and tear down and
it doesn't take up a lot ofspace when you collapse it like
a soft box or something would.
I would just move to a largerumbrella.
Maybe indoors.
You can get away with a 7 footumbrella, which your listeners
goes, man, that sounds reallybig.

(33:36):
And it is.
And it is.
but again, it's that relativesize to my group.
Now I don't have one head that'sa single square foot.
I may have 6 or 7 or 12 or 15.
So now I've got a larger squarefootage that I have to light
appropriately.
So my light needs to be a largersquare footage relative to them.
So I think a good rule of thumb,I'm going to stick with bounce

(33:59):
umbrellas because I think, youknow, Personally, they're the
most, they're the easiest tocontrol and they get you the
most consistent spread of lightacross, across your image is the
shaft of the umbrella shouldpoint to the farthest end of
your group.

Okay.
Gotcha.

And that'll help even out and distribute the
light as efficiently across thegroup as possible.
It may not be perfect.
It may still take someadjustments, but the more the
shaft is pointed towards thefarthest end or past that point,
the more efficient the lightwill be across the group.

Yeah.
was one of those things whereit's like, I always found that I
could, I could salvage thephoto, in editing, but it was
never ideal.
and I think that that's onething that a lot of times I
would forget, that it was Eventhough, sometimes because of the
speed of a wedding, you may notalways be able to get it like
perfectly right and be able todo it, by the books every single

(34:53):
time.
We do still have someflexibility in editing.
When it comes to Flash, fromyour perspective, do we still
have that same flexibility or dowe have to take different,
approach to editing?

no, I think you still have that same
flexibility.
If you just happen tomisposition your light and one
side got a little bit darker,you still have the ability to
open up shadows and our tonedown highlights or stuff like
that.
You still have that ability todo.
but where I think it's even morepowerful using flash and you're
editing is now, as we talkedabout earlier.
My ambient light is controlledby my shutter speed, right?

(35:28):
We separate those two exposurecontrols, from flash just
determines my aperture andambient light is now affected by
my shutter speed.
So now you can change yourshutter to introduce more light
in the background or even onthat shadow side for maybe a
window or lights that arealready present in the space
too.
So it gives you so much moreflexibility using off camera

(35:51):
flash.

Let me ask you a question.
just so that we can hopefullyagain, wrap our head around this
concept, right?
When you change your shutterspeed, right?
Let's say that there's no flashinvolved.
We're just out and we're takinga photo.
When we change our shutterspeed, the photo gets brighter
or darker, right?
That's the only setting thatwe're going to change.

Intro (36:11):
Correct.

When you introduce flash and you change
your shutter speed, whatever'sbeing hit by the flash, the
exposure doesn't change.
Correct.
Can you explain that for newphotographers?

Yes, because your, flash moves at the speed of
light.
So, so time has, unless you haveto, and unless you move into
high speed sync, right?
and I don't do that very often.
So let's ignore that technology.
Let's just forget high speedsync exists.
And until you get to that pointwhere you need high speed sync,

(36:47):
time is not a factor on yourflash because it happens So
fast.
So when you press the shutterbutton that flash fires,
whatever it hits, we're assumingis your subject, your person,
whatever it hits in that instantis burned into the sensor.
It's exposed.
And then the amount of time thatthat shutter is opened after
that flash fires, if you'reusing first curtain sink or

(37:09):
before that flash fires, ifyou're using rear curtain sink
burns in anything that flashdoes not touch.

So when we change our shutter speed, that's
not adjusting the flash, right?
Dill.
So what that's doing is that'sjust changing the amount of time
that the light not coming fromthe flash is hitting our sensor.
And that's why that light eitherbecomes brighter or darker, but
that's correct.
That's correct.
Cool.
That's correct.

We know that there's a difficult concept.
if you've only photographed anambient light and you've only
photographed on a program mode.
You know, where you've usedexposure compensation.
this is like, what?
Hold on.
Let me hear it.
Say that again.
Yeah.
Yeah.
1, 1 more time.
so I think to really do thiseffectively, you need to go to

(37:56):
manual mode.
Because then you would onlychange your aperture based upon
how bright your flash is.
And you would only change yourshutter speed based upon how
bright or dark you want the nonflash areas.
I call it the ambient.
Typically, we can refer to it asthe background.
It's the park behind oursubjects, or it's the reception

(38:17):
hall at the wedding, or, youknow, the altar behind our
people at the wedding, orwhatever it may be.

I know that talking about these things and,
it's challenging, I thinksometimes to have these
conversations because this istechnically the beginner
photography podcast, you know,and I try to have these
conversations that are gearedtowards beginners, and hopefully
allows them to expand theirknowledge base some so that they
have somewhere to start goingtowards when they feel like
they've reached that.

(38:44):
And that's why I think today wehave to have these
conversations.
So one, I just have to say, Iappreciate you coming on here
and, not only talking aboutlight from an authoritative
space, right?
You've had a lot of use oflight, a lot of experience with
it, but also, trying to, speakto it in a way that.
Many beginners can betterunderstand, without making us

(39:05):
feel, dumb, because that happensa lot in this space, right?
you can just start talking aboutthe, you know, the trigonometry
and the, and the cosine, youknow, all those things, but you
didn't do that except for that,that one time, of course, but
we, I was joking.
Yeah.
Yeah, of course.
Of course.
so one, I want to say thank youfor that, but now that we have
this knowledge, what do we dowith it?

You gotta, gotta practice.
Where do we start?
Maybe start with, you know,don't torture your kids again to
do this.
Okay.
Guilty.
Guilty.

Intro (39:37):
Yes.

I have so many pictures of my daughter with a
scowl on her face.
Like, really?
You gotta take, you gotta dothis again.
but.
Get something that has shape toit.
You know, I mentioned thebasketball.
Maybe, you, um, have some typeof helmet or something that
looks like a face, you know, acostume or whatever, something
that can render shape.

(39:58):
You know, it could even be aballoon or a soccer ball or
Photograph that, right?
And put your umbrella on yourflash about 6 feet away again at
that 45 degrees is a goodstarting point.
So, if you're in, if you're onthe, if you move your umbrella
to the right side of yourcamera, the shaft should point
to the far left side of your.

(40:19):
The right side of your subject,or your left side from camera
position, if you move it to theleft side, it should be the
opposite because the shaftalways goes to the farthest edge
of my.
Image and take some pictures,right?
Go to manual and start adjustingyour shutter speed and look how
the background changesbrightness.
Don't adjust your aperture ifthe exposure on your on your

(40:40):
subject is correct and visuallysee it.
do this in your kitchen, do itby a window where you can see
the window light change.
Do it, outside.
and just, and you got topractice it, you

got to do it.
You got to do it and just listento these conversations or watch
videos.
You have to actually do it.
I'm still waiting, for oneperson to just watch every
YouTube video on photographywithout ever picking up a camera
and getting some sort of likedegree or calling themselves a
master photographer.
But I haven't seen it yet.
Uh, which is just proof that youhave to do it.

(41:13):
Chris, again, thank you so muchfor coming on today.
Yeah, of course.
Thanks for having me.
This is your, well, technicallythis is your third time on the
show.
And I feel like every time youcome on, I get some sort of
email or, a message saying like,wow, that Chris guy really
helped me out, figuring out somelike, for everybody else who's
listening right now, who maybe,they're trying to figure out.
Where do I go with this?

(41:34):
You know, what do I do?
Where can we learn more aboutyou and any sort of lighting
resources that you have?

Okay.
well, name's Chris Duncan.
C.
R.
I.
S.
There's no H.
Instagram's ring.
See a lot of our work.
my website is C.
J.
Duncan seniors dot com.
We do a lot of high schoolseniors.
See someone work there.
Some commercial work at C.
J.
Duncan dot biz.
if you want to see some of that.
As far as learning resources,I've been doing education for a

(42:01):
while, over 20 years in theindustry and have a resource.
It's learn.
findyourfocus.
org.

You know, Chris's episode continues to be
one of the most popular and itis clear to see why.
The man has an incredibleability to talk about light and
make it easy to understand.
Now, if you shoot portraits,whether it's family, seniors,
weddings, whatever, afterlighting, I know that the most
difficult part for photographersis the posing.
Well, I want to help you outwith my free 25 page wedding and

(42:33):
engagement posing guide.
In it, I share my own imageswith 80 plus examples from nine
different categories of poses,to help you rock your next
session and make your subjectsfeel comfortable in front of a
camera as well.
So, if you need help posing,grab your free copy over at
photoposingguide.
com.
The next step, I chat withvisual storyteller Alana

(42:54):
O'Neill.
Here, you're going to learn howto use angles, how to use
lighting, and how to createpurposeful compositions to
create immersive images thatmake viewers feel, present and
in the moment.
You're going to learn how tocommunicate specific emotions
through the careful use of colortones and light manipulation,

(43:15):
which will better allow yourphotos to evoke this feeling of
sensitivity, thoughtfulness,and, Alana's case, nostalgia as
well.
Lana is also going to help youbetter understand how to balance
different elements within yourcomposition to tell a more
coherent and compelling story,free of any clutter so that each
part of your image supports thestory that you are trying to

(43:36):
tell.
So Alana, my first question foryou is when did you know that
photography was first going toplay an important role in your
life?

Alanna O'Neil (43:44):
I think it started from an early age.
My mother was a hobbyist, aphotographer.
I'm from Vermont and we grew upon a horse farm and in the tack
room, which is where we keep allthe horses, saddles and bridles
and such, she turned it into adark room.
So it was like half dark room,half like photography equipment
or like horse equipment.

(44:05):
So I was there just alwayswatching her develop film.
seeing her like put it in thesolution and then the red lights
are on and then I'm just seeingthe whole process from beginning
to finish.
And it's so I've always kind ofhad it in the back of my mind.
Like, it's just always there.
And she is an artist as well.
And she's always teaching us to.

(44:26):
Look at things like, look at thecolor of this cloud.
Look at the green of this field.
look how the purple matches thegold.
So it was just something thatwas just kind of ingrained in my
growing up.
And then as I continue to growand experiment, on my own, I
really was drawn to naturephotography and just capturing

(44:47):
my surroundings and, my food andlike we grew our own food in the
garden.
So I was like capturing food,that we grew.
So it was just kind of alwaysjust my way of expressing
myself.
And then it only came to aforefront when I, was in my,
twenties.

Did you go to school for it or how did that
progress?

so I went to fashion design school in New
York and I worked for CalvinKlein and it was really there
where my photography interestsgrew because it's very similar.
I mean, art, there's so muchcorrelation between different
fields and so when we areputting together collections, I
would draw, look to, you know,go to the library or go on

(45:26):
Pinterest or wherever I foundinspiration and put together
mood boards.
And so.
I really had to learn how tocurate my photographic eye.
And that's where, my love ofphotography really blossomed.
Like, wow, I was really, I'mreally good at this.
Like, I'm really good at seeingthings and translating concepts
or emotions or feelings into animage that would eventually

(45:48):
influence a collection.
So I'm entirely self taught.
I don't have any formaltraining, but it's just been
always in my, background.

Raymond Hatfield (2) (45:57):
So, I'm interested in that because going
to school for something is kindof like a big, decision, right?
You have to declare a major.
You got to go to school.
You got to learn these thingsfor years.
at what point did, photographyreally take the reins as far as
like your life goes and movingforward in that direction?

Yeah, and it's I also have a degree in global
studies in French.
So I was like, how can I combineall of these things, because the
fashion design thing was anafterthought.
It's like, another second degreeon top of my undergrad.
So it was really when I wasliving in New York City that,
um, I realized this lifestylewasn't meant for me, and the

(46:32):
hustle, and just the fast pacedlife where you can't, think or
breathe, even.
I grew up on a farm where yousee, rolling green hills, and
then you come to this concretejungle where you don't even see
the sky, maybe 10 minutes of theday.
Or feel a sunshine.
So, that's where I was like, Ineed to leave.

(46:53):
I need to physically leave, thislifestyle because it's unhealthy
for me.
And that's where I was leaningon towards photography because I
was like, wow, photography givesme that freedom.
That I can explore and, pursuemy own path and create the
lifestyle that I want.
whereas if I was stuck, youknow, working in a corporate
position for a company, whosevalues that I don't even

(47:16):
personally believe in, it justfelt really soul sucking and
photography was kind of thatoutlet where.
I sought my out.
So eventually I moved back hometo Vermont and then kind of
regrouped.
And then I found, a positionhere in Hawaii.
So this is another step is like,you can't sometimes make these

(47:40):
immediate jumps right away.
You have to like slowly go intothese decisions.
So I was like, I have all thisstuff.
Student debt, I need to somehowmake use of my degrees without
just, completely, pivoting.
So I found an active workcompany in Maui, and I was
offered the position to dodesigning there and I just kind

(48:00):
of reached the limit because Ifelt like Hawaii was, more.
the healthier lifestyle that Iembodied and it was more rooted
in nature and, an outdoorhealthy lifestyle, which I
really resonated with.
So I was like, Hmm, these, thesetwo go hand in hand.
I've got design.
I've got the lifestyle that Ienjoy.
Now I'm going to make it work.
And then slowly I kept buildingmy photography business on the

(48:23):
side while I was working forthat company.
And then it reached a pointwhere I hit the ceiling of that
position.
And I moved on and move forwardand started my own, business.

Wow.
There's a lot there to dive intomy gosh, so busy.
Let me ask, because, I thinkwhen a lot of people listening,
when they decide, you know,maybe I don't like this job that
I have, maybe it doesn't alignwith, who it is that I am or,
the lifestyle that I want tolive, and then they consider
photography, oftentimesphotography is, I think for a

(48:56):
lot of listeners, at least, it'sthought of as like, that's not a
real job, you know, coming fromthat corporate world.
Did you ever have any feelingsof that?
And if so, how did you overcomethose?

I definitely did.
I was like, how can I make moneyselling photos?
Because especially now in thisworld of AI, where you can
create photos and it's so easyto generate images and you don't
really need to have the.
Skill set really to, create animage for whatever purpose, but,
I still have those questions andI still kind of have those?

(49:27):
questions because the world ischanging now, but I just feel
like.
What the best encouragement Icould give to someone who's in
that position of not knowingwhether they can make
photography their lives aretheir their work or their career
is that if it truly does bringyou joy and fulfillment, you

(49:48):
have to keep following and justbe Keep building that momentum
and traction, because I feellike the more you keep following
your intuition and just buildingand just keeps growing
incrementally.
and there were so many timesthat I received no's or
rejections or no, we'rerespectful.
Responded or I pitched tomagazines or I pitched to,

(50:09):
agencies and other brands, and Ihave like inboxes full of
rejections and nose, but it'shaving that resiliency and that
clear vision in your mind ofknowing that this is what you
want, because if there's a will,there's a way, and it may not be
the way that you expect, and itmay be this like roundabout
zigzag way, But if you're veryclear on, like, what your vision

(50:31):
is for your business or thelifestyle that you want to
create and the photography youwant to shoot, it's undoubtedly
possible.
So it's just kind of having thisunwavering confidence and, in
your belief or in your belief inyour vision and your, your
abilities and the vision foryour North Star or whatever,

(50:53):
where you're going.

Thank you for sharing that.
I want to go back a little bitto, kind of your earlier days,
right?
Because you said thatphotography has kind of always
been in your life.
but, I know I know that like,when I was a child, obviously
there weren't really any digitalcameras, like digital was brand
new as I started to get intohigh school, so I had to learn
on film and at the time, youknow, it's like everything on

(51:16):
film was like, so, so manualand, there was, uh, quite a
steep learning curve.
did you experience anythingthrough that or did you have a
different path?

Yeah.
definitely.
I think my mom, she gave methese, like, you know, those old
point and shoot cameras.
So it had all the little dialsof manual aperture and shutter
priority.
was definitely a steep learningcurve on learning from manual
to, From, You know, using justauto, like, which any root
beginner does, or like, ifyou're 12 years old or
something, I didn't start andfilm other than just using my

(51:48):
mom's camera when she would letme or, You know, playing in the
dark room.
But even now, I think the partthat I found that was the most
when I look back at it was themost challenging was just
learning the technical aspectsof photography.
I'm not a technical person atall.
I'm not like a gear person.
It's for me.
It's like, if you have, a reallyamazing lens and just like a

(52:11):
semi okay body, I think you cancome away with some really
fantastic images.
And I think.
What's most important is havingthe ability to see and the
ability to understand light andunderstand emotion and how to
translate a moment in time, ortell a story in your frame.

(52:32):
And so, Right.
Right.
Even now, I suggest newphotographers if they don't feel
entirely comfortable usingmanual mode, if they're still
kind of like, not that they'refast enough to get the shot or,
they're struggling with thebalance of the ISO and shutter
speed and all that, I say, justflip it into aperture priority

(52:53):
and let the camera help you andyou can learn that way because
sometimes Aperture priority orshutter priority may be the
better option than using manualmode.
for instance, like when I'mtraveling, next week I'm leaving
for Europe and I don't want tobe holding up the group by like
figuring out like manual modeand like, you know, you just

(53:14):
want to like point and shoot andthen like move along.
You don't want to have to stopone way for the light to change
and then.
Fill with your settings, justlike flick it into aperture like
maybe 4.
5 or something or 5.
6 and then let the camera helpyou and then you can learn,
through that way by seeing howyou maybe switch from that to

(53:35):
manual and then play more onyour own time.
But I don't think there needs tobe this pressure like, oh,
you're not a professionalphotographer or you're not a
decent photographer, you don'tshoot in manual mode.

Yeah, I'm the exact same way.
Like know the importance ofmanual and I know like why it's
so great because I've seen it inmy own work, but also like when
I.
You know, I'm just out with thekids.
Like I'm going to shoot that inan aperture priority because I
want to spend time with them.
Like I'm not trying to, uh, youknow, make a, I don't know,
competition where the images,like I'm just trying to take
some family photos.
And, uh, that definitely makesphotography more fun when you do

(54:08):
it that way.
So, I appreciate you sharingthat.
so how, when it comes to, movingon in photography, right?
Like, when we understand thetechnicals, like we get it, the
technicals.
Oftentimes.
I think new photographers thinklike, that's what learning
photography is.
But then once you know them, youknow them.
It's like the learning ofphotography doesn't start until
after you understand how to usethe camera.

(54:30):
so for you, like, I know that abig part of, what it is that you
preach is visual storytelling.
And this is an area where a lotof photographers get.
lost and I think it's maybe it'sbecause they're trying to do it
too soon while they're stilltrying to figure out their
camera.
but tell me kind of yourviewpoint on, visual
storytelling because, it'sreally fascinating.
And I think once you get a greatunderstanding of it, it's easier

(54:52):
to start progressing towards.

Sure.
I think visual storytelling isreally at the heart of what
makes a photo compelling orinteresting, because.
If you think about it, you couldtake a photo of an apple on the
table and that's just an appleon the table.
But what if you cut the appleand put, bread and then you tore
up crumbles of bread.
And you just like you expandupon this concept and visual

(55:17):
storytelling is a way to draw inthe viewer to really invest in
the image that you're sharing.
It's more than just sharinginformation on a screen.
On the screen or on your cameramode.
So you're actually translatingan idea or a story across, to
the viewer.
And it's really innate in who weare as human beings, because

(55:38):
we've been doing this forhundreds of thousands of years,
that storytelling is really inour bones.
And I think that the more we canlean on, how can we make this
scene or moment more interestingor compelling or really tug at
our humanness.
it just draws you into the,scene.
It makes you want to invest andsee more and be more curious

(55:59):
about, what's happening.

So I think that that's, easy to say, right?
And I'm not trying to push ithere or anything, but like, it's
easy to say

Yeah.
No, I can.

create a story out of these images.
But what did that look like foryou?
Like, how do we break that downfor somebody listening who,
again, they're still trying tofigure out their camera
settings.
What does it actually look liketo start building, a visual
style in that visualstorytelling ability?

Sure.
So if you think about it fromsay a movie or a book, so
there's like a beginning, middleand end, and then there's
usually a hero, like your mainsubject and that hero is going
to be, go from point a to pointB to point C.
So if you think about a story ina book, it begins with

(56:41):
something.
So you have to set the stage.
So you set the stage of, say.
We're doing maybe a series ofimages.
So maybe five images.
You're going to set the stage ofwhere this story is taking
place.
So say we're in, in Italy, andwe are at a vineyard, a winery.
So you're going to set the stageby taking the shot of maybe the

(57:04):
hero shot of where this ishappening.
So you want to set this, thestory in a time and place.
So where is this storyhappening?
And, what time of day is it?
So you have to be reallyliteral.
Like if you were vocally tellinga story about what's happening,
sometimes I have had peopleactually literally write out the
story on a As a piece of paper,as you can even go as far as

(57:26):
like once upon a time, you know,blah, blah, blah, like literally
write it out and then translatethat into images.
So once upon a time, there was aman who was picking grapes on
this, olive grove and vineyard.
And then he was.
You know, to took all the grapesand then was starting to smash
it and press the olives and thenthat's the character.

(57:48):
And then you just follow themovement of what's happening.
And then, of course, in thesetypes of story, whether it's an
or film and our movie or book,there's always moments of
tension.
There's always like a little bitof conflict.
So maybe.
It's a contrast.
So maybe there is like highcontrast in the images, or maybe

(58:08):
there's questions on an answerin the frame.
So maybe I like to think ofvisitor storytelling as You
don't want the info, subject orthe frame to be so obvious you
want to leave a little room forquestioning.
You want the viewer to kind ofquestion and you don't want to
give them all the information orall the answers.
You want to have to, like, findsome moments of tension.

(58:30):
Like they make them question.
What is happening here?
Like, maybe there's areflection.
You're maybe you're shootingfrom the barn.
Through a window of a glass andat the man picking the olives,
and you don't really know what'shappening.
And maybe someone's driving upon the road and you're
capturing, this rushing of thecar and the cars driving away

(58:53):
fast.
You're like, what's happening?
I don't.
There's this kind of likequestion and this can be done in
so many other simple ways.
Like maybe it's even, You know,you're saying you're at the
table and then your hands areall red from crushing the
grapes.
And then, you step away andit's, the grapes are all pressed
on the table and the hands areall, you know, red and, All you

(59:14):
capture is just this empty room.
And it's, you're wondering like,who was there?
what just happened?
And all you see is just theequipment that he was using to
press the grapes.
And now it's just nothing.
There's just no one there.
And it's just a dark, emptyspace that makes the viewer
think like, what?
It's happening.
where did he go?
what's happening now with thesegrapes?
I mean, this is so simplisticand I just kind of coming up the

(59:36):
top of my head here.
But if you thinking about it interms of telling an actual story
in a film or a movie, there is amain character and then there
are supporting elements as well.
So these supporting elementscould be Mhm.
other subjects.
It could be another child that'srunning down the road or the
dog, the farm dog along thevineyard.

(59:57):
And the dog is like sniffing theground and picking up the grapes
and eating them.
And maybe you capture just thepicture of the dog.
It's all creating context ofthis moment.
And then, you know, Even in foodphotography, you know, you can
have other supporting elementslike supporting actors, maybe
the main subject is a loaf ofbread and then you have maybe

(01:00:18):
the jam and then the butter andsome cheese and then you have,
wine and some wine spilt on thetable.
So it's all about creatingcontext for this story that
you're telling.

Raymond Hatfield (2) (01:00:28):
Oh, wow.
well, that kind of leads me tomy next question because when it
comes to like photographingthings like food, I understand
when it comes to people, youknow, you can get these emotions
out of them.
You can, walk them through anaction when it comes to like a
loaf of bread.
How do we, you know, add that,to a frame, but it seems like,
you know, with your examplethere of the, having some
spilled wine or whatever.

(01:00:49):
Visually, I can see that in myhead and like, it's a beautiful
photo.
but I can hear listeners asking,like, do we need to introduce
tension in every photo?
what are your thoughts on that?
I'd love to hear.

Alanna O'Neil (01:00:59):
Yeah, I don't think you need to have tension
in every photo, but I think youwant to leave the viewer.
Wanting to be more curiousbecause, and it's also down just
to personal preference becausethere's room for shots that it's
just like a beautiful loaf ofbread that's untouched in a
cutting board.
And it's just generallypresented and that's, it is what

(01:01:21):
it is.
And that's beautiful.
And that's just the type ofphotography and that's saying
something and maybe it's moresimplistic and pure.
and it's really about, thebeauty of this creation.
but that's kind of it to me.
That's just like a one note typeof photo, I guess.
Whereas if you cut the bread andyou had maybe a child's hand

(01:01:41):
reach up, try to like grab apiece of bread and there's
butter and it's the table's alittle bit messy and the sun's
streaming in so you can clearlytell it's morning.
the colors that you've chosen inthe napkins and the tablecloths
are like white.
and yellow.
So it's like happy and sunnyfeeling.
There are all these ways that wecan use elements like color and

(01:02:03):
contrast and lighting to enhancethe feeling of this bread.
maybe it's just how maybe yourgrandmother's coming in to cut
it in her weathered hands.
create that capture of thatfeeling of nostalgia and warmth
and comfort.
So there's ways that we canCreate, this humanness because I
think when we can infuse a humanelement and just life into our

(01:02:26):
photos, it makes it so much morerelatable because to me,
sometimes it's like a loaf ofbread on a cutting board.
That's all it is.
It's a minimal, clean, pureshot, but I personally.
It's just, that's, it is what itis.
It's not, there's nothing elsethere to delve deeper into.
Whereas if you add more to thatstory, you can relate to it and

(01:02:49):
there's like a humanness,element to it.

I love, that, you know, you're talking
about, creating these images,right?
I think oftentimes newphotographers think of just
going through the world andcapturing images of what's going
on in their life.
And you're talking about, like,manufacturing, creating these
images, but still, doing it in away that, tells this story.
I think that's a perspectivethat doesn't really get talked
about enough, but is, extremelyimportant.

(01:03:14):
So, To kind of go deeper intothat, let's talk about context.
you brought that up before.
And context is actuallysomething that I kind of
struggle with because, growingup, some of my influences were
like, documentary photographers,where it's like, their goal is
to get everything into onephoto, which means you got to
have all the context.
but for me, I always found thatlike my images would get too

(01:03:35):
messy, you know, for you, like,what's the balance between
including too much context and,don't know, still being able to
communicate the story thatyou're trying to tell.

Yeah, definitely.
I think this even can go intojust like photoshopping.
Like when do you photoshopsomething out if it's like
getting too messy or too much?
I feel like, what's the storythat you want to tell or what's
the message that you want toconvey and what elements in that
shot or in that composition, Athat or detract from it.

(01:04:04):
So if you're thinking aboutdocumentary photography, there,
sometimes you want to haveeverything and maybe you're
shooting at like F 16 orsomething.
So everything's like sharp andeverything's in frame, but what
elements.
Are necessary to convey themessage of this moment.
Maybe you don't need to includethe trash can in the corner of

(01:04:25):
the street or the litter on theground to actually convey the
message that you want to share.
Or maybe you do, maybe that.
Dirty trash can in the trash onthe streets actually helps
convey the message and feelingof your story.
You know what I mean?
It's like really knowing likewhat do I want to convey in this
image or in this message?
And is it necessary and if not,is it detracting from you know,

(01:04:49):
my thing is this bright redumbrella?
Adding to this calm feeling ofserenity by the beach, or is
That, actually, should I justmove my camera just a little bit
to the left?
So I crop it out, and just getthis beautiful seascape with
like white and blue and, youknow, sandy colors.
And that red umbrella would becompletely detracting from my

(01:05:10):
story or the feeling that I wantto convey.
So I think it goes back to justknowing what the message or the
image that you want to createand share and then working
backwards.

That, sounds so simple, but I know
from experience, I'm sure, youknow, it's, one of those, uh,
it's easier said than done.
Like that can be a

Mm hmm.

did you work yourself through that?

Well, I think it's hard when you're in the
moment.
Because you're just kind of sayyou're traveling and you're just
out and about.
It's, you can't really have timeto think about these things.
Like, what do I want to feellike in this stage, this story
or scene?
And I think it's just more offollowing your gut and your
intuition, automaticallyknowing, like you pick up the
camera, like, actually, I don'tlike that, I'm going to crop

(01:05:52):
that out.
It's just like more aboutfollowing your moment.
And I think it, or yourintuition and, fine tuning it as
you go, because.
When you are traveling or you'rejust in your daily life, you
know, in street photography orwhatever, you can't just take
your time because you're goingto miss the moment and you can't
have these broad conceptualthoughts of what's the emotion
that I want to capture here.

(01:06:12):
It's more of just like followingthe hit of the intuition of,
hey, I like that scene or I likethat.
The way he was walking down thestreet.
I'm going to shoot it.
And I think it's just followingyour intuition because I think
that will help you fine tuneyour eye and also your style
because we don't have the graceof time where we can plan

(01:06:34):
everything out to a tee and, oh,I'm going to style the bread
just so, or I'm going to captureit just this way.
I think it's, yeah.
If it looks interesting and itfeels compelling to you, capture
it and follow it and then you'lllearn next time.
But I think the more you justkeep following your intuition,
that helps.

Yeah, of course.
I mean, photography is such asubjective thing that, uh,
there's that quote and I'veshared it a million times here
on the podcast.
I think it's Ansel Adams whosaid that.
There's two people in everyphoto, the photographer and the
viewer, right?
And,

hmm.
Mm

leaves a lot there for the photographer
to input themselves in a photoand it all comes down to the
intention, which I love.
I love how you shared thatthere.
do you have any exercises,anything that we can do to start
to.
recognize what is, popping up tous, what is grabbing our
attention and how to photographit in a way that is more than

(01:07:26):
just simply, uh, visualinformation, but it conveys
more, essence to it.

Yeah.
one helpful, practical thing isto give yourself an assignment,
say I'm going to go to thislocation in my town or place, or
maybe it's a park or something,and you're going to create or
capture anything that feelsinteresting to you, because I
think that when you come backfrom this, maybe, and you really

(01:07:54):
put your focus and time into it,you'll come back with images and
you'll see like, Why did I shootthis?
Why was this?
Why did I, want to capture thiswoman walking down the street
this way?
Because when you start toquestion why you take pictures,
you can start to pull apart youractual eye and like what you
find interesting in your style.
because I think when you, letyourself be free and be more

(01:08:19):
playful and more candid andcasual in the way you shoot,
you'll start to chip away atyour style, because if something
feels interesting or compellingto you, When you're out on this
assignment, ask yourself why,like, why am I drawn to this
color?
Why the orange and blue and thepink, are this way?
what is it?

(01:08:39):
And the more you ask yourselfthese questions and you look at
all these images that you takeover periods of time, you can
see like things that are, youare drawn to and the way you see
things, if that makes sense.
it's so hard to verbalize, butwhen you think about What am I
interested in shooting and why,it.
will help you understand how youcan one, find those images and

(01:09:04):
like where to actually look forthem, because when you see them,
they'll stand out in your mindbecause you'll start to see
like, oh, wow, I always, forsome reason, I always shoot from
this angle, or I always tend tobe.
Shooting at this light andthere's time of day are always
been using this setting.
What if I maybe try somethingdifferent or maybe I
experimented and, shot in adifferent way.

(01:09:26):
So I think the more open we areto experimenting and then also
questioning the images that wedo take or the ones that we
don't like, It's not about ourfavorite photos.
It's also the ones that we don'tlike.
Like, why didn't this photo workor why didn't this scene appeal
to me?
personally, I don't like weddingphotography.
That's not my thing, but there'ssomething there that I can learn

(01:09:49):
about when like, there'ssomething I can learn about
wedding photography to translateinto my own work.
So the more you try and fail andlike, you know, Just ask
questions, like, biggerquestions.
It helps you chip away at, like,who you are, as a photographer,
if that makes sense.

It does.
It does.
And in fact, I know that, youknow, you shoot food.
I've seen your photos of, Idon't know if they're sourdough
or whatever loaves of breadthat, were on your Instagram
recently.
Beautiful and like it made mewant, it made me hungry.
Like I wanted to eat them.
But at the same time, you alsohave photos of, these beautiful
horses and these images of, likesweeping landscapes, as you were
saying earlier.

(01:10:26):
as you go through like thedifferent genres of photography,
right?
From food, nature, wildlife, Iguess you could say for animals.
do you think are the commonthings that string those images
together?
for you as a artist, from yourperspective, how do you tie all
those images together?

Yeah, that's one I've struggled with because I
felt so boxed in.
Like I'm only going to do foodphotography.
Like I'm only going to do flatlay free photography and work
with this type of brands.
And I just felt so stifled inthat genre that I was like, this
is not me.
And I felt like I could justbroaden myself, you know, I'm
interested in streetphotography, landscapes.

(01:11:04):
animals, these are all my ownpersonal interests.
And so it's like, how can Iinfuse my own personal interest
into my work?
And that's when I feel like I'mthe strongest and I, enjoy it
more.
And I think it can be boileddown to, emotions and feelings.
Like I hope that.
My photography has all thegeneral same feelings and

(01:11:24):
emotions where they're verysensitive and thoughtful and
reflective, and they maybe havea hint of nostalgia and they,
are very much.
They have a calming a calmnessto them and, a reverence for
beauty.
So I'm hoping that all of thesefeelings are translated across
all of the types of genres thatI, I do.

(01:11:47):
So, that's why I may not.
Show certain types of photos ordifferent types of colors
because they don't reallyresonate with those feelings,
even though, you know, inreality, I love vibrant,
beautiful colors, but thefeelings that I want to evoke
throughout my portfolio and justmy work in general, I find that
I can keep going back to thesetypes of feelings and emotions,

(01:12:11):
across all the genres, whetherit's landscape, landscape,
landscape.
Horses or animals or food,whatever.
they're all, still presentthere.

I appreciate you sharing that is
color the main way that youcommunicate these feelings of,
sensitive, thoughtful,nostalgic, reflective through
your images, or do you use anyother visual tools?

yeah, definitely.
Those are, uh, that's reallyimportant.
Color is so powerful, but alsothere's also ways of just like
light, you know?
And I think we can have to letourselves evolve because at
first I started being reallylight and bright and airy
because that felt more likehome, like peaceful and calming.
But I've also been experimentingwith more like moody and darker

(01:12:54):
because That also can be reallyreflective as well, there's
different sides to moodiness.
Like moody can be, quiet.
It can be subtle.
It can be gentle.
And that's also just anotherside of the coin of what I want
to convey.
So, and it's also, compositionbecause, for instance, I try not

(01:13:14):
to have a My photos be superbusy and like crazy just like
really energetic and feeling.
I try to keep it very, clean andcalming to look at visually.
So composition is another.
so I think lighting is one.
And color another and also justcomposition and, I also balance,

(01:13:36):
like, just trying to keep myimages really balanced.
So it does evoke that calm,peaceful, beauty, type of
feeling in my images.

I gotta say, your, use of adjectives are
on point.
I could only hope to, be thatgood with words, someday.
Uh, that's why I got intophotography.
Yeah, they're great.
I wanna know though, like, fromyour perspective, where do other
photographers get this wrong?
Because, they do, I've seenphotographers and, their images
don't feel like I couldn't namethree adjectives, to describe

(01:14:06):
another photographer's work.
Cause it just kind of all over

hmm.
Mm

Raymond Hatfield ( (01:14:10):
perspective, where do you see them get it
wrong?

this is really hard because I was there too,
where I was trying a milliondifferent things, experimenting,
in certain ways.
It's like a kid in a candystore.
I want this.
I want to do it this way.
I'm doing this and I'm going toshoot this way.
When you're experimenting withso different, many things or
someone that you really admire,you want to shoot in their style

(01:14:33):
or their way.
And you, you kind of get lost inthat process because you are
pulled in all these differentdirections.
And that's totally I think apart of the process is
experimenting, broadening yourhorizons of what's possible and
what you can do with yourcamera.
And I think you need to exposeyourself to different types of
genres and styles to actuallykind of find out who you are.

(01:14:57):
So, I think there is thatprocess of you have to go
through to kind of get throughto the other side.
I think at the heart of it, it'sreally knowing who you are, in
this moment.
And of course you're going togrow and evolve.
Like I'm a completely differentphotographer than I, when I
first started and it's givingherself that grace to keep,
growing and evolving, but Ithink you should have some base

(01:15:21):
to come back to where, who am I?
Like, who am I?
What do I want?
My.
Core my photography to be andfeel like, and again, maybe it
is going down picking up herdictionary or whatever the
source and like, writing downadjectives in a notebook and
literally writing down or evenmaybe just picking them.

(01:15:43):
Solid images of your work, ormaybe someone else's.
And this is the core of what Iwant to be focusing on right
now.

that sounds like a lot of work.
Sounds like it's going to take alot of time.
It sounds like it's going totake more than a weekend, in
photography.
which of course is ridiculous.
what sorts of exercises can wedo?
You know, we know that we can godown and we can, photograph the
things that just kind of, standout to us.
But let's say somebody who'slistening, maybe they're at the
next step, right?
They know what kind of intereststhey have.

(01:16:38):
how do we go deeper?
Like, is it through editing?
Is it more through composition?
Like, how do we go deeper into,visual storytelling than simply,
noticing the things that we, aredrawn to?

sure.
I think it's also coming backto, so in visual storytelling, I
always come back to life.
using life as a reference.
So what in this moment, whateveryou're looking at or shooting or
feeling, how can you infuse lifeinto it?
and there doesn't even need to?
have a human being in there.

(01:17:09):
How can you infuse life?
this photo with life like that'swhoever's seeing it or viewing
it can feel like they are therelike that.
They, they can feel the dew onthe grass.
They can feel the lightstreaming through the trees.
They can feel, the sunshine ontheir shoulders if they were
sitting on that park bench.

(01:17:29):
Like, what are the ways and thatcould be me.
Maybe it's how you angle yourcamera and you shoot the light
coming down.
through the trees, and you canactually maybe have some lens
flare.
It's like little ways like that.
It's like, how can you make aviewer feel like they're in this
moment?
it's just a very simple way of,basic storytelling.
It's like, how can you throughcolor or the way you crop, or

(01:17:52):
you shoot, or the way you angleyour, scene, or in the way you
compose it, what would help theviewer feel like they're in this
moment?

Wow, I gotta say, maybe it's your use
of adjectives, but you seem sosure of yourself in photography,
and that is, envious, you know,so, if, I guess one, do you feel
that way internally, and two, Iknow that we've all grown in our
journey.
So if you could go back and tellnine year old Alana, one thing
about the world of photography,to get you here faster, like

(01:18:22):
what would it be?
What advice would you giveyourself?

wrote about this, I think, a few blogs ago, I was
like, the one thing I would tellmyself back when I was a kid was
not to be afraid of tryingdifferent things and failing
over and over again.
Just follow my intuition andjust shoot and not worry about
what everyone thought about it,like, Oh, if it was a good
picture or not, because there'svalue to be had.

(01:18:47):
And be taken from a terriblephoto.
and I'm still learning, like, Iam not confident and solely
competent in the technicalaspects of photography.
There's so much that I can stilllearn and grow from even, you
know, I don't even I can usenatural light only.
I've never shot.
With, strobes or, artificiallights.
So that's a completely out of mywheelhouse.

(01:19:09):
And so I'm, there's alwayssomething for me to learn and
grow from, but what I would sayback to my younger self is not
to be shy and not to be afraidto take horrible pictures and
just keep trying andexperimenting.
And not to be afraid to sharethem because if the thing is,
you have to get through what,like 10, 000 photos to actually

(01:19:31):
get to the good stuff orsomething I've heard, you have
to have this, these bad photosbecause you'll learn, through
them.
So I would say for anyone who'sstarting is to just be free and
not be precious with your work.
Don't feel pressure and don'tfeel precious about it.
Like, most people are on digitalcameras and you can easily

(01:19:53):
delete your whole memory card.
You can delete photos.
It's not like you're wastingmoney or on film.
Just shoot, shoot, shoot andjust be casual and like loose
about it and don't overthink itbecause I think when you get too
stuck in your mind of like, Oh,I shouldn't be doing it this way
or shooting this way.
Just practice and practice andpractice and keep just shooting.

(01:20:16):
And then you'll, the more you'llfeel.
comfortable with your camera andit's like a part of you.
It's like a second, it's likeyour second companion.
You're like your third eye.
It's just always there.
And you just, yeah, it's justwith you at all times.
And, you can just feel naturalin your hand and you don't have
to think too hard and beprecious.
Like, well, should I do thissetting or should I do it this

(01:20:38):
way?
And again, that's where I canthink you can lean on the
aperture priority primarily,when you're just beginning
because It will help you justlearn to see, seek moments and
understand light, easier andfaster.

That was perfect.
For those who maybe they're notdoing any sort of client work,
they're not doing commissionedphotos or anything like that,
but they're just shooting forthemselves to say document their
life.
One question that I always thinkabout is like, what do you do
with your photos?
do they just live on Instagram?
do they get printed?
So just for you personally,like, what do you like to do
with your photos?

Yeah.
I wish I could say I loveprinting them.
I just, I don't, but I, I wantto, I have some that I've taken
and I have printed because it isreally nice to feel something
tangible.
I took this like this.
You can feel it in your handsand you see it on your wall, and
it's like a wonderful memory of,the moment.
So, personally, um, I, have thislike love hate relationship with

(01:21:37):
Instagram because the algorithmand all this stuff, I don't
think it's helpful forphotographers because we're very
much statically based and nowit's moving into video and
reels.
So I would say if you're justbeginning, you can of course
share like document, it's like avisual documentation or a
journal of your life or yourmoments.

(01:21:58):
And I think that's totally fine.
But personally, I think ifyou're just a hobbyist, there is
something really lovely to seeyour work in print and it
doesn't need to be this, youknow, giant poster size in your
bathroom or your bedroom.
It could just be a five byseven, maybe a little collection
of, you know, images, thatyou've shot and just have some

(01:22:18):
personal, meaning to you.
I highly encourage that andthere are so many fantastic ways
of printing your images, outthere.
So.

I recently came across a company that does
like, it's very small photobooks.
I think they're only like 20pages, right?
Teeny tiny.
And, I got one in fact, it'sonly like six inches by six
inches.
It's very small.
And I thought to myself atfirst, like, why?
I don't even know what the pointof this is, right?
But I ordered it because it wasdirt cheap.
And I got it and the kids openedit up and they looked through it

(01:22:49):
and they just had so much funlooking at these photos from
like the past month.
Like these are still like veryrecent memories to them.
And it's only such a smallselection of photos that I think
for them, for them, they'reyoung kids, right?
So it's like they're used to.
Thousands of photos like beingoverwhelmed with the amount of
content that's available to themand to have something that has a
start, there's a front page andthen there's the last page and

(01:23:10):
then there's just a few handfulsof photos in between, was really
interesting to see them, use andsomething that I wasn't used to
in photography, you know, youdon't normally think of these
things, but, without print, Iwouldn't have got that moment.
So I'm right there with you.
It's, it's great to be able tohold on to something.

yeah, I made one for my dad for his birthday
once.
he came to Maui once and I madea photo book of his time here.
and it wasn't just familypictures, it was like the
picture of the flowers out frontor the ocean.
And, and again, it goes back tothis story.
It's like this little book.
Holds a story of his visit, andit's just so thoughtful and

(01:23:48):
sweet that, you know, you, ofcourse, you could have them on
your phone, but they get lost inthe scroll.
And it's so nice to just, like,open in and like, look at and
you remember, and they're reallythoughtful ways of capturing in
moments and memories and havingthem in a way you can.
You know, it looks beautiful andare really thoughtful.
So I totally agree with you.

Yeah, it's beautiful.
It is so much fun.
Well, Alana, we are at the endof our time.
I know that people are thinkingto themselves, I want to learn
more about visual storytelling.
I want to learn more about whatAlana has to share.
I want to find her online.
Where's the best place to do so?

Sure.
They can find me online on mywebsite.
It's Alana O'Neill.
com or Instagram.
It's at Alana O'Neill photo.
you can find me over there.

Raymond Hatfield (01:24:34):
All right, next, I chat with landscape
photographer and fellow podcasthost, Matt Payne.
Today, Matt is going to teachyou the importance of pre
planning, by considering howlight will hit different
subjects in landscapephotography.
So you'll learn how focusing onsmaller scenes and intimate
landscapes can help youappreciate the beauty in

(01:24:56):
overlooked details and createunique compositions.
And then to wrap it up, Mattshares his technique for
experimenting with shutter speedto capture movement in nature,
to really create dynamic andinteresting compositions.
Matt you've been on the podcastlike a number of times already.
So normally I ask like, when didyou know that photography was
going to be, play an importantrole in your life, but I think

(01:25:17):
we already know that answer.
So, I want you to tell me, aboutthis recent trip that you took
that, consisted of more than 500miles in 30 minutes.
This sounds bananas to me, but,when you told me about it, you
were super excited.
tell me about what this trip wasand what you were hoping to get
out of it.

Matt Payne (01:25:33):
Yeah, so, for people who are familiar with through
hiking, there's a trail here inColorado called the Colorado
Trail.
It's considered one of the crownjewels of the three big thru
hike trails in the UnitedStates.
You have the Pacific CoastTrail, and then you have the
Appalachian Trail, and then youhave the Continental Divide
Trail.
The Colorado Trail is like alittle, it's like, I don't know,

(01:25:55):
a third of the CDT, ContinentalDivide Trail, and it's
considered like the best part ofit.
And so it's about 500 miles.
It goes from Denver to Durango.
And I quit my job in June,because I was transitioning into
full time photography.
And I knew that I would haveabout two months off in between

(01:26:15):
the two in the transition time.
And I was like, man, when am Iever going to have the time
available to be able to dosomething as epic as a 500 mile
through hike?
And so I started making allthese plans way back in April,
actually to do it.
And, you know, there's a lot oflogistics involved.
you have to figure out whereyou're going to get your food,

(01:26:36):
how many days of food you needfor different parts of the
trail, get all of your gear listspecific to that, what you're
going to need for that hike.
and I knew that I was going todo it as a landscape
photographer, which is as theword to use your word bananas,
because as you know, camera gearis heavy, right?
No kidding.
And, so I.

(01:26:56):
Went on this quest to likelighten my photography gear and
get all of my other gear aslight as I could get it And I
ended up with a base weightbefore a photography gear of
just about 15 pounds And then myphotography gear added another
six pounds and then of coursethen you add in food and water
So like I was ranging Anywherebetween 30 and 40 pounds a day

(01:27:20):
on my back.
And I was averaging about 18miles a day.
So it took me 35 days to finishthe trail, uh, which is about
average.
I would say for most people thatdo the Colorado trail, and this
is actually how I got my trailname.
people name you, people meet,meet you on the trail.
There's kind of this fun cultureand through hiking and you get a

(01:27:41):
trail name like based on apersonality quirk or something
weird or strange that happenedto you, whatever my trail name
is extra credit because, inaddition to doing, 500 miles and
doing, 17 18 miles a day.
I also climbed 30 mountainsalong the way.
So that involves a lot ofgetting up really early to do

(01:28:03):
these side hikes.
It involves deviating off thetrail and climbing mountains
that were connected via ridges.
I added a lot of extra elevationgain that most people don't have
on the Colorado trail, butbasically, as you know, from my
first conversation with you, Iwas a mountain climber before I
was a photographer and that'show I got into photography and,

(01:28:24):
as soon as I decided I was goingto do the Colorado trail, I
looked on Gaia GPS for where thetrail went through and I just
started identifying mountainsthat I've.
That would I've always wanted toclimb or that were kind of in
the proximity of the trail.
And I just started making routesof climbing mountains on Gaia
GPS for things that were goingto be close by to where I was
hiking.

(01:28:44):
So, I didn't, I probablyidentified probably 40 mountains
in total that I thought wouldbe.
Good targets.
And then I ended up doing about30 of them.
Well, exactly 30 of them, butokay.

So one, we could, um, go down the
psychological, element of doinga trip like this, or we could
stay on the photography, aspectof it.
And, until I changed the name tothe beginner psychological, uh,
Psychologist podcast.
I think we'll stick withphotography.
So, 30 mountains.
that is awesome.
and going on this trip soundsamazing as well.
What was your hope from thephotography standpoint?

(01:29:17):
Because when I think of goingout and shooting landscapes, I
think it's very calm.
It's relaxing.
I can take my time.
You know, the mountain's notgoing anywhere.
Just wait for the right lightand then take the photo.
But when you got 18 miles a daythat you have to cover, there's
got to be some time pressure onthat as well as You know, you
don't really have an option tocome back a day later if

(01:29:39):
conditions aren't favorable, solet's start with what was it
that you were hoping to achievewith your trip?

It's an awesome question.
So it's funny you saidpsychological or photography
because I found that they're, atleast for me, they're
inextricably linked together,especially for something like a
500 mile hike where you'retrying to take photographs on
the way.
So I kind of had.
Three goals for my, throughhike.
the first one was just to havean amazing experience in nature

(01:30:08):
with no expectations of what mayor may not happen, you know, and
have a, you know, put a featherin the cap, so to speak, like
something to be proud of whenyou're 70 year old, 70 years old
with your grandkids.
And well, I did the Colorado,you know, that kind of thing.
You know what I mean?
But then the second one was, um,I actually purposely set out
with the intent of creatingvideo content while I was on the

(01:30:32):
trail.
Oh my gosh,

that's just a whole other element, Matt.
What are you doing?
Oh yeah, man,

I'm sorry.
But, uh, what I wanted to dowas, while I was hiking, because
you know you have a lot ofdowntime and you're, constantly
just, you know, thinking andyour brain is just, you know,
you're, there's no distractions.
So your brain is free to be muchmore creative.
Right.
And I knew that that was, well,I didn't know, but I had this
hope that I was going to haveall these great ideas come to me

(01:30:57):
while I was hiking.
And so I wanted to do these, Idid a video and I ended up doing
it.
So I did a video every singleday and it was basically a recap
of what the day was like.
And then a philosophical orpsychological goal.
that I kind of came up with thatday, relating to life or

(01:31:18):
relating to photography orrelating to relationships or
philosophy or exercise,whatever.
and so I kind of just strungthose together somewhat randomly
every day.
And then the, extra layer ofwhat I wanted to do with this
content and these ideas is that,man, if these are any good,

(01:31:38):
maybe with the photographs I'mtaking on the trail and with
these concepts that I'mdeveloping, maybe I could write
a book, that's full of essaysand photographs that are kind of
linked with my experience ofhiking the Colorado Trail,
climbing these mountains alongthe way.
And then these.
psychological, revelations, Iguess that I, that I had along

(01:32:01):
the way.
So, that was my intention.
And then I guess I said therewas a third thing.
And then the third thing was tomake some interesting
photographs.
I did not have specificphotographs in mind, like, Oh, I
have to be at this place at thattime.
I was very open to just, youknow, while I'm hiking, if I see
something that catches myattention, capture it kind of

(01:32:22):
more of a documentary approachto the photography side of
things.
But, with maybe a fine art twistof, you know, maybe I, for
example, I'm hiking through adark forest.
Right at sunrise, and there'swildflowers growing up to the
forest floor, just the tips ofthe wildflowers are getting hit
with the first light of day,everything around them and below
them is dark.

(01:32:42):
So you have this mysterious kindof ethereal image of a
wildflower in a dark forest.
So those kind of images I wasjust kind of keeping my eye out
for.
And then of course, Especiallyin the parts of Colorado that
I'm more familiar with where inthe mountainous areas, I
purposely placed myself in thoseareas for longer periods of time
and kind of pre planned out someof my campsites that would be

(01:33:06):
close to some hopefully scenicplaces that I could Do side
trips to take photographs, afterI get my campsite set up, let's
go to the top of this ridge andphotograph this amazing scene.
So there was a little bit of preplanning in terms of what I
wanted to capture, but mostly Ijust wanted to have no
expectations of and just bereactive as a photographer and

(01:33:31):
see what I could come up with.

now that the trip is over and you've put the
feather in your hat, tell meabout some of the images that
you were able to capture.
Because if you're not going outand, having this idea in your
head, which I think is greatbecause so many times I've gone
out with an attempt to shoot andI had expectations for what I
wanted.
And then I arrived and they werejust completely crushed.
And that is hard to recover fromright away.

(01:33:52):
So going out and just being openand seeing what you could get,
looking back at your photos, doyou find that there's any sort
of.
Pattern between them that youfound interesting.

Yeah.
So I just want to touch on onething you just said, because
earlier in my career as alandscape photographer, I was
very, planning focused likeyou're describing, you know,
okay, I'm going to get to thislocation and I know the
composition I want to captureand I know exactly what
photograph I want to get.
And while that approach tophotography can yield some

(01:34:22):
really great results, in myexperience over the last 15
years is that It can lead to alot of burnout and failure and,
depression.
I honestly, because so often itjust doesn't happen the way you
pre visualize it would happen.
And so I've adopted a more of akind of.
put myself in interesting placesand be very open minded to

(01:34:44):
discovering and finding imagesthat speak to me and are, catch
my attention.
And so to answer your questionmore specifically, I definitely
found myself photographing a lotof smaller scenes.
for example, hiking on thetrail, Oh, look at that fallen
tree.
That's got this really coolpattern on the wood.
That's exposed to the elements.

(01:35:05):
That's a cool photograph.
I'll photograph that for asecond.
Do do do do do.
Oh, look, there's a field fullof wildflowers and a really
beautiful mountain behind it.
I'll photograph that.
Cool.
That's great.
Do do do do do.
Oh, look at how the light ishitting the sides of that
mountain with the trees overthere.
I can photograph that at alonger focal length.
So a lot more kind of intimate,smaller scenes for sure is what

(01:35:28):
I was drawn to.
But then I was also, I kind ofhad a rekindling of my love of
the grand scenic images, which Ifind can be very challenging if
you don't have good conditions.
A lot of those images are veryconditions dependent.
And some of the ones that Iwere.
that I got that were reallygreat is because I had fantastic

(01:35:49):
conditions, really amazinglight.
I put myself in some reallyinteresting places like two,
three miles off trail atcampsites above tree line where,
maybe there's a single 14, 000foot mountain reflected in this
huge lake, scenes like that.
I found myself trying to get toand capture.
So it kind of ran the full gamutof small scenes, abstracts,

(01:36:11):
details.
into my landscapes and grandscenics kind of all together,
which was super fun tophotograph.
So yeah, like basically justwhatever I came across that I
found

interesting, I made a photograph.
When it comes to just kind ofshooting, like what is right
there in front of you, I thinkwhat's interesting is that like
that to me is the type ofphotographer I am, like wherever
I am.
That's where I'm at right andlike that's what I'm gonna
shoot.
You said that there wasn't muchpre planning but With your
knowledge and skills having shotlandscapes for so long like what

(01:36:43):
sorts of things were you?
Maybe you wouldn't considerplanning But you were still
doing whether it be leaving,super early in the day or you
not shooting between You know, Idon't know, 11 and four or
Like, if somebody else were togo out on a trip like this, like
what are kind of some of thebasic things that they should
just think about to start takingamazing photos?

Well, first of all, I think we need to dismiss
ourselves of this idea that youcan only take good landscape
photographs in golden hour.
You're right.
That was my

fault.
I apologize.
That was just terrible.

No, no, it's I mean, to be fair, like, that is are
usually when you get some of themost amazing photographs.
However, you can also still makesome great photographs at any
hour of the day.
So that'd be my first thing tosay to people is, pay attention
to the way the light is hittingdifferent subjects.
And when you're on a, in a placelike the Colorado trail, you
know, you're in these valleys,you're in mountainsides, there's

(01:37:40):
lots of different opportunitiesfor, clouds to create
interesting light.
One of my favorite images that Ihaven't even processed yet was
it was like 11 in the morning,maybe something like that.
And I was on this, trail kind ofcoming down this mountainside in
this Valley and across from mewas another mountainside with
these jagged spires, kind of allin a line.

(01:38:01):
And it just happened to be wherethe sun was high in the sky
behind them, and it was castinga shadow through those, or I
guess behind those, pinnacles,and it literally, it looked like
a bunch of dragon claws or fangsor, I mean, it had like this
very abstract feel to it, and soI was photographing that, 11 in

(01:38:22):
the morning, but I also itDefinitely, definitely tried to
put myself in some reallyopportune locations at great
times, for example, got up attwo in the morning from my
campsite one morning to climb tothe top of the second highest
mountain in Colorado so that Icould photograph sunrise at the
top, ended up getting to thetop, like, 45 minutes before

(01:38:43):
sunrise and it was windy andfreezing cold, but got some
really incredible images upthere, getting, staying up late,
going to little vantage pointswhere you might have an
interesting composition of avalley and a mountain.
a lot of it was just studyingthe map.
understanding where the lightwas going to be at certain times
of the day, having that intimatefamiliarity with the mountains

(01:39:05):
and how they react to differentlight, at different times of the
day.
For me, that was a hugeadvantage that I went into it
with because with thatfamiliarity of subject, I didn't
really have to think too much.
I just knew like, Oh, if I'mgoing to be at this part of the,
on the map at four o'clocktonight, it's, I'm going to
probably want to get myself tothis part because it's going to
look awesome looking thatdirection, you know?

(01:39:27):
So a lot of that kind of stuff,just understanding.
The topography and how lightimpacts topography.
I think it played a huge role inwhat influenced where I went.

How do you, well, I guess if you're really
into landscapes and going out onhikes and shooting, you're
probably gonna start learningthat stuff on your own.
So I'm not going to ask how toread a topography map right here
on the podcast.
I bet that would be really hardto explain, in an audio, first,
platform, but, um, going out.
So.
when you're out and you'reshooting, the first, you have to
know that you make it to whereyou need to go that day.

(01:40:02):
And then, second, or maybethird, second, you probably have
to eat.
And then third, like, somewheredown that list is photography,
even though, like, it's stillimportant to you.
How did you know, at the end ofyour trip, whether or not you
captured all the photos that youneeded to?

So, going back to what I had said earlier, I
intentionally did not put thatkind of pressure on myself for
the trip from a photographyperspective.
Mostly because I know this aboutmyself that if I go out on a
photography trip, whether it befor one day or a week or

(01:40:40):
whatever, if I have preconceivedideas of what I want to capture,
I typically will develop a lotof tunnel vision and miss out on
a lot of photographs that mightend up being some of my favorite
photographs of that particulartrip.
And I made that realization on aphotography trip back in 2017,

(01:41:01):
where I had this almost like ashot list for, it was a fall
photography trip, which I doevery year, but I almost had
like a shot list.
Like I want to photograph thisscene in the morning on that
day.
And I had all these locationspre planned.
And I remember three days intothe trip, I was just Literally,
I was about to quit photography.
I was like, this is soridiculous.

(01:41:22):
I'm not getting anything.
I like, dang it.
Mother nature just is not givingme what I expect.
Right.
And so I was so frustrated thatday that I decided to, I just
looked at the map and I said,you know, what, Why did I get
into photography to begin with?
It was because I was hiking andclimbing mountains and reacting

(01:41:43):
to scenes that I saw that Ithought were beautiful.
That's how I got into this tobegin with, right?
So I'm like, how do I get backto that passion that drove me
into photography to begin with?
So I found a trail that was likea mile away from where I was at,
never hiked it before, didn'tknow where it goes, started
hiking that trail, got to this.
Top of this huge plateau andwitnessed one of the most

(01:42:05):
ridiculous, Colorado mountainscenes that I've ever seen in my
life.
I still consider it probably thetop three views in Colorado, and
I'd never, ever, ever seenanyone else photograph it
before.
And I studied a lot of scenes inColorado before, right?
It was incredible.
And, and it was just a hugereminder to me that some of your
best photographs come from justputting yourself in nature.

(01:42:29):
and relying on your intuition tocapture photographs that speak
to you.
and the added benefit of that isthat those photographs are more
personal to who you are as aperson, because that's, you
know, you noticed it.
It's you were drawn to it forwhatever reason, whether it be
the light or the color.
Or the shapes, or the textures,or the subject matter, whatever

(01:42:51):
it is.
And then your job as thephotographer is to capture in a
way that is interesting for theviewer.
So, I went into this wholeColorado Trail thing knowing
that I wasn't going to pre planany of the shot lists.
Yeah, I put myself into somereally cool spots on purpose,
and I intentionally gave myselfextra time in the parts of the

(01:43:13):
Colorado Trail that that weremore target rich for
photography.
And I, the areas that I kind of,Didn't think we're going to be
as good.
I was like, okay, I'm going tohike 24 miles a day,

you

know, or like my first day I did 20, 28.
7 miles or something like thatin my very day one.
Yeah.
and it wasn't because that partof the state is boring.
It's just.
Just not as interesting to me asa photographer, although I
captured some photographs that Ireally liked.
So for me, it was aboutunderstanding who I am as a

(01:43:45):
photographer, what makes metick, and then just, leaning
into it as hard as I could.
So I did a lot of that, but itwasn't.
super pre calculated or anythinglike that.
It was, again, just reacting andresponding to what nature gave
me and, and going from there.

Yeah.
And I mean, you have a lot ofexperience, like you've been in
these situations before.
It's not like this was yourfirst time just going out and
winging it and hoping for thebest.
So sometimes I feel like thatelement gets a little bit lost.
so obviously talking about thatis, is pretty important, but
what I'm really interested inis, as a wedding photographer, I
would look at a lot of otherwedding photos from other

(01:44:21):
photographers and I could kindof pick out, well, what makes my
images different than otherphotographers as well, right?
When you're shooting a lot ofthe same targets, right, these
locations as otherphotographers, how would you
describe your work as beingdifferent from other landscape
photographers?

Well, that's a great question.
And, that's part of the,Hopefully the evolution that you
go through as a photographer isthat you start to pick up on
things that differentiate you asa photographer from other
photographers.
And at the risk of, you know,sounding arrogant or whatever,
I've actually spent a lot oftime thinking about how to do

(01:45:00):
that.
And because early on in myphotography career, I spent a
lot of time emulating otherpeople.
I would look at photographsonline and I would say, I want
to go photograph that exact samecomposition.
And some people say that can bea good way to learn because you
start to understand compositionand light and all that kind of
stuff.
But it also kind of steals thethunder of that original

(01:45:22):
photographer a little bit.
If you're just copying that,copying other people ad nauseum.
And once I kind of made thatconnection, I decided, okay, I
need my work to be my work.
I want it to be a reflection ofwho I am as a, as an individual.
I want it to reflect the thingsin nature that I'm most
interested in, which for mehappens to be geology.

(01:45:44):
It happens to be, findingpatterns in the chaos of nature.
It happens to be, leveraginglike really interesting light
that isn't necessarily sunriseor sunset.
Like maybe it's.
But the way that the light'sreflecting off of that lake and
the subjects that are in thelake makes for an interesting
scene.
Maybe there's some interestingreflections in the lake.

(01:46:05):
try to, leverage the things thatI'm most drawn to in nature.
Like if I'm hiking and I say,Whoa, look at that thing.
What the heck is that?
For me, that's a huge clue thatI should make a photograph of
that, whatever that thing is.
and it might not be a goodphotograph, right?
It might be just planting a seedto a photograph that might be

(01:46:27):
better tomorrow or two days fromnow that's of a similar subject.
But better.
So, it's pattern recognition,it's, you plant all these seeds
and then you start cultivatingthem, you start nurse, you know,
you start feeding those seedswith water and, and then
eventually they grow into betterand better versions of what,
what was originally, you wereoriginally

drawn to.
I know that you've, taughtworkshops before, so like you
see other photographers and thethings that they shoot.
And you see the things that yousee.
Do you see any sort of likedisconnect where other
photographers are focusing onthe wrong thing?
Or is that just a personalpreference of what, what you
find interesting?

Yeah, I know.
It's funny because I feel like.
Most photographers, when they'refirst starting out, they're
approaching it with, this kindof childlike mind, like they're
so excited, they're learning howto use the camera for the first
time.
And most of the time, they'rephotographing stuff that they
find interesting, right?
then for a lot of people,somewhere along the way, that

(01:47:27):
kind of childlike curiosity getscrushed by the shoulds and the
woulds and the have nots and thesocial media.
And so I think what I often findis that people, don't trust
their instincts.
They try to please other people.
they're looking at what'spopular on Instagram and they're
saying, Oh, I should probably dothat too.

(01:47:49):
If that's what's popular, thenthat's what I should go
photograph also.
And.
While that can make you alsopopular on social media, it
doesn't really do much todifferentiate you as a
photographer in this vast fieldof things.
Now, if you find joy andenjoyment out of that, and it's
fun for you to copy what otherpeople are doing, Go for it,

(01:48:13):
right?
I don't, you know, knockyourself out.
But I offer up that if you goback to what got you into
photography to begin with andyou photograph the things that
you're drawn to without anyregard to popularity and fame
and fortune and what's popularon social media, I think you're
going to find that photographywill be a much longer thing that

(01:48:35):
you're engaged in for your lifeover the course of your life And
you're gonna get a lot more longterm Enjoyment out of it without
experiencing burnout.

That's hard That's really hard because a lot
of times when you're gettinginto something you only know
what you've seen so almost likeswitching that part of your
brain to say actually Instead oflooking for the things that I've
seen before, what do I see?
And that's really, did youstruggle with that as well?

I did.
in fact, I remember I was on atrip in, I think it was that
2017 trip and I was outphotographing with some friends
of mine who I hold in very highregard.
Some of my favoritephotographers who have a very
unique and personal vision andthen a unique approach to their
photographs.
Alex Noriega, Sarah Marino, RonCoscarosa, David Kingo, Jennifer

(01:49:26):
Renwick.
And we were just in a truckdriving through the country in
Colorado in fall.
And I told them, I'm like, Ijust don't see the stuff you
guys see.
I just, I don't, I don't knowhow you do it.
And they were like, well, Whatare the things that you notice
and why don't you why aren't youspending more time with those
subjects?
And it just clicked with me.

(01:49:46):
I'm like, yeah, you're right.
I see things all the time Ithink look cool, but I don't
spend enough time photographingthem So I think if you want to
become really unique anddifferent in this crowded field
You need to spend a lot of timeExperimenting, failing, failure
is good.
I say fail fast and fail oftenand learn from those mistakes

(01:50:08):
because the next time you seethat subject, you're going to
photograph it maybe slightlybetter or slightly differently
and your work's just going tocontinue to improve.
I also encourage, especially newphotographers, I encourage you
to look at the work of a lot ofphotographers and Instagram.
I'm not talking about that.
I'm talking about Buy somephotography books, right?
Like, I know we're going to talka little bit about this, but I

(01:50:30):
run a competition, and wecompile the best photographs of
over 15, 000 images that aresubmitted.
And we compile the best of thebest images that we like the
most in a 220 page book.
And, um, The course of doingthat competition for me has made
me a better photographer becauseI'm just starting to see things
in nature that otherwise I wouldhave previously just not paid

(01:50:54):
any attention to.
So having a lot of familiaritywith a wide array of techniques
and subjects, I think is goingto make you better and be
inspired, but don't copy.
Right?
I definitely caution people likedon't look at an image and say,
okay, I'm going to go make anexact replication of that
photograph.
It's just, you're not going togrow as a photographer if you do

(01:51:17):
that.

Can you give me an example of something that
you've been inspired by, but youdidn't want to copy?
Like what's something that yousaw maybe in some of the photos
that came into this, through thechallenge and you thought to
yourself, wow, that's amazing.
I can use an aspect of this inmy own photography.

Yeah, I mean one example that comes to mind.
she didn't enter ourcompetition, but she's been on
my podcast her name is RachelTalabar.
She's a UK photographer and shedoes a lot of seascapes and I
live in Colorado So I neverphotograph seascapes Yeah, but I
do occasionally get the chanceto photograph stuff in the coast
on occasion Last year, I did atrip out to Oregon, the Oregon

(01:51:55):
coast, to do a workshop outthere.
And she has a series of imagesof seashells and really abstract
patterns in the water on thebeach, kind of just looking
straight down.
And I've always been captivatedby those images because there's
a lot of motion conveyed in theimages and they're very simple
and minimalistic.
And what I challenged myself todo was not copy those images,

(01:52:18):
but then try to figure out.
Like reverse engineer, how didshe create these images?
And so I just went out into thebeach and just started
experimenting with, differentshutter speeds, a little bit of
intentional camera movement.
I mean, I was just tryingeverything I could to try to
figure out how she got thoseimages.
And I finally got a few that Iwas like, Okay.
That's how she did it.

(01:52:38):
And that, and it was a lot offun, right?
a lot of frustration too,because, you know, the waves are
coming and then they're goingand the shells are moving
around, but like, that's the funof, just trying new techniques
and, appreciating other people'swork and trying to figure out
how they captured thosephotographs.

Beautiful.
is there anything within thatthat you're able to use while
you were in the mountains?

Oh, man, not in the mountains, but yeah, it's just,
it's scaffolding.
It's, you know, you learn atechnique and then you build
upon that technique and then youmake some mistakes and then you
fix those mistakes and then, Theimportant part of growing as a
photographer is looking back,looking at your work and
figuring out, okay, what workedand what, what could I have done

(01:53:20):
better?
And then next time you're in thefield, you're going to remember
that stuff, right?
Hopefully your work continues toimprove over time, right?

Yeah.
that's the goal.
I don't know anybody who says,you know what?
I hope I can become a worsephotographer by this time next
year.
And if they are, I'd gladly buysome of their camera gear off
them.
Let's talk more that now thatyou touched upon it about the
Natural Landscape PhotographyAwards, because, this to me is
fascinating.
a few years ago, I, reviewed, Ithink it was, Luminar, like one

(01:53:48):
of the first AI, uh, editingtools, and their big thing was
like sky replacement.
And I thought, this is so cool.
Like it's now so easy to justreplace the sky.
And so many times on a weddingday, especially here in Indiana,
just like there's nothing in thesky.
It's just nothing.
So unless you're like six feettall, looking kind of like seven
feet tall, looking down onsomebody, you're going to get
sky in your image.

(01:54:09):
And if that's boring, I'd ratherhave a, an interesting sky
today.
This is everywhere.
It's all the time it's nonstop.
So kind of the idea behind thenatural landscape photography
awards, like is reallyinteresting to me.
So can you share with me whatit's about, what your mission is
and what it is that you'reaccomplishing?

Man, hopefully you got like six hours here because
I'm really passionate about thisparticular topic.
But, uh, Hopefully you can do

it in two and a half minutes.

Right.
Okay.
So back in 2020, I partnered upwith three other photographers
who shared a similar vision thatI have in terms of kind of
appreciating the more eyewitnesstradition of landscape
photography and naturephotography being, I wouldn't
say Documentary, I thinkdocumentary gets kind of a bad,

(01:54:57):
you know, leaves people with abad taste in their mouth because
it is after all artwork, right?
We're creating art.
But I think over the yearsbecause of social media,
Instagram, and, sites like 500PX, things like that, people
have, gotten this approach oflandscape photography where
they're constantly just pushing,pushing, pushing, pushing the

(01:55:17):
envelope, right?
And what that's turned into is,um, instead of taking the
requisite time to actually get aphotograph right in the field
with amazing light, people arecreating it using software and
that's all fine and good.
You can get some amazingresults.
However, if you're like me andyou I don't know, this is going

(01:55:40):
to sound elitist and I don'tmean it to, but if you hold
yourself to a standard where youdon't want to manipulate your
work in that way, because maybeyou take pride in the
photographs you're capturingactually representing the
experience that you witnessed asa photographer, then That type
of work, especially as itrelates to photography

(01:56:00):
competitions, can become alittle bit problematic because
it becomes much, much moredifficult for someone like me to
have any of my photographycompete against somebody who is
adept at not only replacingskies, but also adding in
different foreground elements,stretching and warping mountains
to make them look bigger andmore magnificent than they

(01:56:21):
actually are in real life.
doing perspective blends whereyou've got a 14 millimeter
foreground and you've got a 75millimeter mountain behind it
and you're taking the best ofboth worlds.
You know, all of those differenttechniques that have kind of
come through in the last 10years to perfect the landscape
photograph, people like me in acompetition setting.

(01:56:43):
Good luck.
You know, you're, you just,there's not as much wow factor,
you know, my mountains haven'tbeen stretched, you know, my
colors and the light that Iphotographed are actually real,
the photograph you see behindme, which is also the cover of
my, book that was real, that Ihad to get up at, actually, I
didn't go to bed that night, butI climbed to the top of that

(01:57:04):
mountain at four in the morningand photographed that sunrise,
14, 000 feet, right?
And I've climbed over 250mountains in Colorado, and I've
never seen light like thatsince, and I'll probably never
see it again in my life.
And that makes me excited.
When I see that photograph, ittakes me right back to that
experience, right?
And that's what I want to conveythrough my work.

(01:57:25):
I don't want to convey afantastical kind of make believe
fairytale land through my work.
I want my work to representsomething that me, the
photographer, actually witnessedand photographed.
And maybe I'm hard headed,whatever, but that's my approach
to photography.
So anyway, relating to thecompetition, we found by,

(01:57:46):
analyzing Facebook comments andFacebook posts, how frustrated
they were by the fact that thosetypes of images continually win.
And we're like, okay, so itsounds like there's a lot of
people out there that are likeus who wish there was a
different platform on a moreeven playing field where they
could get their images showcasedto the world.

(01:58:07):
And when you look at the image.
You know that that was actuallysomething that that photographer
witnessed and captured and itwasn't created in software.
And for me, other people, maybenot, but for me, when I look at
a landscape photograph and Iknow that it is actually
something that that photographerwitnessed, it just makes it that

(01:58:29):
much more special because therewas more work that went into
creating it.
The amount of effort and energythat went into it is probably
greater.
It required a lot more fieldcraft to get it correct.
You know, there's a lot morevariables that go into capturing
that image.
And so we were like, well, let'screate this competition and see
what happens.
So we created the competitionand we had over, 15, 000 images

(01:58:53):
submitted in our first year fromlike 60 countries and yeah, it
was huge.
And then one of our goals, youknow, our goal isn't to make
money.
in fact, I don't recommendcreating a competition if you
want to make money, especiallythe way we're doing it.
But, um, then the reason I saythat is because we're creating
these, books and these aren'tjust like, Slap together books

(01:59:16):
on like, you know, Bay photo orsomething like that.
These are linen covers withembossed titles and texts and
very high quality paper and highproduction value.

Look at that moon right there.
Holy cow.

I mean, the quality of the photography that's been
submitted to our competition is.
Ridiculous.
If you win any award in thecompetition, or if one of your
photographs is featured in thebook, we give you a copy of the
book for free.
That's just our way of saying,man, we want to celebrate your
accomplishments.
Congratulations.
and what we found through thecompetition is that these

(01:59:54):
photographers who have kind ofthey're not noticed on social
media as much.
They're now starting to getattention.
They're now starting to getfans.
People are starting to find themas, artists.
And, and it's been exciting tobe able to elevate the work of
these photographers.
So it's been an awesome project.
You know, our goal is to pushphotography, landscape

(02:00:15):
photography, push it back inthat direction that, was so
celebrated by, the foundingmembers of.
Group F64, which is like AnselAdams and, Brett Weston and, all
of those photographers who kindof came out of that pictorial
movement and they wantedphotographs to actually
represent scenes that theycaptured.

(02:00:36):
Right.
So that's what we're trying todo with it.

What a cool idea to see.
a need and a desire forsomething and then go after it
and then see the response beingso amazing.
I am so happy for you, for doingthis because this is something
that is needed with all of thisnew software and with AI like
this becomes a big question ofwhat is a photograph when
something looks Like aphotograph and I've had Shane

(02:01:02):
Bulkowich on the show beforetalking about, obviously AI's
role in photography and how weneed to, or we need to come up
with a very clear classificationon what is a photograph and what
is, just digital art.
If capturing a photo that islike genuine and pure and like
this really happened is soimportant, this may be just a

(02:01:22):
personal question.
Why not?
Shoot film.

It's funny because I, I'm always telling film
photographers, why not shootdigital?
Uh, cause to me, film has a lotof limitations, not in terms of
what you can and can't do withit in post, but just, you know,
the mechanical limitations interms of cost.
When I do a fall color trip for14 days, I come home with, I

(02:01:47):
don't know, two, three, 4, 000raw files, right?
I mean, there's no, no way Icould afford that as a film
photographer.
That's a lot of film.

Yeah.
That's a lot of film.

Yeah.
So for me, it's more of apractical thing.
And then also, overcoming someof the limitations of film for a
lot of the subjects that I liketo capture would be very
difficult.
You know, like I photograph alot of trees.
If you're using F64 or F32 on alarge format, 8 by 10 film
camera, good luck getting any ofthose, leaves in focus, right?

(02:02:18):
Like they're, they're going tobe blown in the wind.

Yeah, exactly.
I know.

So, but to your point, I mean, I think film is
kind of an interesting mediumand actually we have several
people enter the competitionwith just film images.
In our first year, thephotograph of the year was a
film photograph.
Um, it is.
Yeah,

This has been something that I've been
exploring lately is that it'sinteresting cause I had started
in photography by shooting onfilm, not a lot, but I was very
familiar with the process.
And then once digital camealong, it's so enticing, you're
able to shoot more as much asyou want, you know, all those
things.
You don't have to carry ahundred rolls of film, but now
I've been giving it a lot ofthought as far as with AI and

(02:03:03):
with all these software tools.
Yeah.
I think that there's going tobe, there's, at least for me,
there's a feeling of knowingthat something is real, um, I
don't do a lot of manipulationsin my photos, and my style of
photography could 100 percentlend itself, like, it could work
on film, and I have to askmyself that question, how
important is real?
Me and what, I guess what isreal, you know, is real.

(02:03:25):
Something that you can hold.
Because if that's the case, nodigital image is real.
So that can't be the case.
So it's, it's coming up withthose definitions.

I mean, it's funny because I think it's a
misconception to say thatphotographs.
are real.
We don't see the world at F2,right?
Or shutter speed, like we don'tsee the world in 30 second
exposures and, you know, thingslike that, that, it detracts
from reality.
And then what we decide to putinside of those four frames, and

(02:03:53):
maybe what's outside of thatframe, you know, that completely
changes What's real, you couldphotograph a beautiful scene
right next to it as a trashdump, you know I mean, yeah, so
I think it's it's not useful tosay that a photograph is real I
think what's more useful from myperspective is to say that a
photograph is reasonablyrepresent an experience or a

(02:04:16):
moment, that actually existed.
I think that's a little bitmore, I mean, maybe that sounds
nuanced.
I don't know, but it's funnybecause back in 2013, 2014,
2015, I did a lot of composites.
I created tons and tons and tonsof really bad night photography
composites and I got really wellknown for, making those images

(02:04:41):
and what I found for myself,looking back, but also at the
time, I never really felt muchpride in those photographs, you
know, I like, okay, yes, theybecame popular and actually got
into magazines and newspapersand all kinds of stuff with
those images.
But I look back at those photosand I'm just like, that, It's

(02:05:02):
kind of fake, it's kind ofmanufactured.
It's like, I didn't actuallyexperience any of those moments.
And so like, for me, it, it justrings hollow at that point for
me.
And so what I realized is havingthose authentic moments or
experiences be.
represented through my imageswas important to me, is
important not only for the way Ifelt about my own photographs,

(02:05:24):
but also important for the, howI talk about my photographs with
other people and how otherpeople experience them.
I get into arguments all thetime.
with people about thisparticular subject, and I just
recently got into a discussionwith someone on discord about
it.
He's a commercial photographer,does a lot of product shoots for

(02:05:45):
fast food companies, things likethat.
And he's like, yeah, like Imanipulate photographs of
burgers and tacos and stuff likethat all the time.
And I'm like, doesn't that makeyou feel a little bit
disingenuous?
Like you're purposely making thephotograph, making the, that
subject look better than itactually was for the purpose of

(02:06:09):
monetization.
And I think that's where I keepcoming back to this problem in
landscape photography is that Ithink motive.
Matters in terms of what you dowith your photographs, I think
if you're doing photo montage orcreating elaborate composites to
convey an artistic idea, andthat artistic idea is conveyed

(02:06:30):
through an artist statement, ormaybe it's part of a project and
that project has a descriptionand, you know, maybe you've got
like really huge moons and likefunky color landscapes that
don't exist, but your project,you mean you're telling the
viewer Why you did that, right?
it was for a specific artisticpurpose, whereas I think 95

(02:06:51):
percent of the images we seenowadays that have had
significant manipulation done tothem.
It's done purely out of anaesthetic, desire to be seen and
to become popular.
And that's it.
And maybe I'm wrong, but I.
I think that's why people do it.
or, or there are people likeyou, like you said, okay, it's a
boring sky.
I'm photographing a wedding.

(02:07:11):
Maybe someone's on an assignmentfor a company to photograph a
hotel.
They want to make that photolook better for the magazine or
the hotel company.
Okay.
I could see that, use case, butif you're saying I'm creating
art and you're creating alandscape photograph, And you're
presenting it to the world as alandscape photograph.
I think we can all agree thateveryone kind of assumes when

(02:07:35):
you look at a landscapephotograph that it is something
that photographer actually sawand witnessed.
Yes.
And so they're, kind of playingon that, that naive viewpoint of
the viewer that that experienceactually happened.
and they're playing into thatand they're, you know, gaining
momentum and popularity based onpeople believing in something

(02:07:56):
that isn't actually somethingthat photographer witnessed.
And the way I try to tackle thatis trying to encourage people to
be more honest in theircaptioning.
So, so many times I seephotographs on Instagram or on
people's websites that I knowhave been manipulated.
And they use really flowerylanguage about how incredible
the experience was and, they'replaying into this idea that the

(02:08:20):
viewer is going to be connect tothat image because it's
something that photographeractually witnessed.
They're intentionally playinginto that vulnerability that we
all have.
Yeah.
When it's not.
When it's not.
And I find that to be incrediblydisingenuous and unethical is
probably the word I would use.
And it's, it's rampant.
It's.

(02:08:41):
Everywhere.
Sure.
And people are, people are doingit with AI now, too, you know?
People are using AI, they'reusing Midjourney, they're
creating these images, and Theydon't exist.
They don't exist, and thenthey're putting them out there
into the world without anycaption whatsoever.
And what's ironic is a lot ofthese people are, before AI,
they were known as nature andlandscape photographers, and so

(02:09:01):
their audience that they'vedeveloped over the years assumes
that it's a photograph, and it'snot, but they don't say it's
not, and again, I just, Ipersonally find that approach to
just be You know, it'sdeceitful.

Yeah.
I'm right there with ya.
I'm right there with ya.
Because it's, I think we're justin a very tough spot right now,
with the world of imagery.
I think, um, because, you know,painters discredited photography
for a long time.
But it's not that it doesn'thave any value, it's just a
different thing.
And I think that we need tofigure out, like, what is that
different thing?

(02:09:35):
And we all have to be okay withit.
And that's just going to take alot of time.
Because there's plenty of photosthat I've seen that are
composites that are like, Whoa,that is super cool.
I know that that's not cool.
You know, and like when youwatch, I don't know, Avatar, you
know, that, we never went tothis, Pandora planet or
whatever.
But you still say to yourself,like, that was cool.
And you allow yourself to be inthat for a moment, knowing that
it's not cool.

(02:09:56):
But then you watch a, like adocumentary And you're like,
that was amazing on an entirelydifferent level.
And I think once we figure outhow we're going to classify
these two things, it's going tobe easier, but I'm right there
with you.
The deceitfulness is bad.

Have you ever heard of the term splitters and
lumpers?
No, I

haven't.
Tell me about it.

Yeah.
So I think where you stand onthis particular subject.
greatly depends on whether ornot you are a splitter or a
lumper.
And this actually dates back tolike the scientific
classification days, likeCharles Darwin and stuff where,
you know, they're like, okay,this is a bird.
Okay, no, it's a subspecies ofbird and like in that scientific

(02:10:37):
community, you had people arelike, Oh no, it's just, they're
all, they're all kind of thesame, you know, they're lumping
everything together.
And I think there's a lot ofpeople who do photo montage and
composites and digital art who,present their work as landscape
images.
They see, they, they all, it's,it's a photo, it's all a
photograph.
it's artwork.
It's an image who cares if youdifferentiate it.

(02:10:59):
And then there's people like me.
I'm very much a splitter becauseI don't necessarily associate
myself with that particularapproach to creating artwork.
and I don't see what we're doingas being remotely the same,

right.

And I'm not saying I'm better.
I'm just saying it's different,and I think having a way of
recognizing that thosedifferences is important to me.
Of course, yeah.

I'm gonna have to look more into that.
That is a very interesting,concept, but it absolutely makes
sense.
But before we start an entirelyDifferent podcast on the ethics
of AI and manipulation andthings like that.
we are at the end of our timehere, Matt.
So I'm going to have to have aback on and we're going to chat
about this again, because thisis obviously a very, very
important topic, but for today.

(02:11:43):
listeners are thinking tothemselves, I want to see more
of Matt's photos, knowing thatit's real stuff.
So where can we find you online?
And also, don't forget tomention your podcast.

Yeah, cool.
So, Instagram, Facebook, allthose fun places, Matt Payne
photo, it's P A Y N E.
My podcast, if you like the kindof conversations that we just
had, I have similarconversations with photographers
relating more specifically tonature and landscape
photography, but we know wecover other things like business
and marketing and website designand you know, all things

(02:12:15):
photography, but it is moreniche to landscape and nature,
but it's called F stop,collaborate and listen.

All right, lastly, today is my interview
with a longtime, well, he'smultifaceted, but in this
interview, street photographer,Ave Pildes, who is going to
teach you the art of capturingdynamic moments and genuine
emotions with natural light andhow to use that light to enhance
the storytelling aspect of yourimage.
You're going to learn how to usespecific locations to deeply

(02:12:45):
explore compositional themes,like focusing on people with
flags on the 4th of July at alocal landmark, so that you can
start to create cohesive seriesof images.
Abe is also going to share withyou his technique for balancing
foreground and backgroundelements to create visually
compelling images.
Which make each frame morelayered in meaning and just

(02:13:06):
visually highly engaging.
Ave last time you were on thepodcast, I think my first
question for you was, when didyou know that photography was
going to play an important rolein your life?
And now that you've been on thepodcast, I now have to come up
with another question.
So was thinking about this and Iwant you for a moment to kind
of, close your eyes, mentallyclose your eyes, whatever you

(02:13:26):
need to do.
And because you have anextensive photo collection, an
archive of images, I want you tothink.
About them.
I want to know what the firstimage that pops into your head,
whether it stands out justbecause you love it, or for any
other reason, I want you to havean image in your head that you
can think of from your archive.

(02:13:47):
do you have an image in yourhead?

Ave Pildas (02:13:48):
I do.

Describe that photo for me.

it's a picture of my cat, a rat.
and I called it, Cat and Mouse,I think, for Gunther Graus from
his book.
But, I had a breakfast room.
And the cat, whenever the cat,caught anything, he would bring
it into the breakfast room.
the room was surrounded bywindows on three sides, and it
had one door to get into thisbreakfast room.

(02:14:13):
So the cat would bring thingsin, and he could guard the door.
one day he brought in a rat.
and, he just played with it andI sat there and took pictures
and I got a really, uh, terrificpicture.
And it's a picture where he hasthe rat in the corner.

(02:14:34):
So there's an upward triangle tothat.
And so the triangle is in themiddle and the rat is on one
side and the cat is on theother.
So And it's just charged withenergy because everybody knows
what's going to happen, butnothing is going on.
And the rat's tail is, strungout straight and the cat's tail

(02:14:56):
is strung out straight.
So, there's a force going on.
And, I have that is also abusiness card and I see it all
the time.
And, When I hand it out topeople, they just say, Oh,
that's wonderful.
I love cats.
And I think it takes them awhile to see what is really

(02:15:16):
going on.
But, it's just a very chargedpicture.

Did you.
Did you know how, visuallyimpactful the image would be as
you were taking it, or did itdevelop over time?

No, I, I didn't know immediately, because I took
probably, maybe at that time Iwas shooting film, maybe, I,
took 10 or 12 pictures, and thenI looked at them.
And, some of the pictures thecat was throwing the rat up in
the air, and, sometimes a chairleg got into the picture, so I
just, knew once I looked at thepictures that this picture was,

(02:15:51):
dynamic, just because, if youhang on, I can get the card and
show you the little picture.
Sure, of course.
It's just in, just, just in backof me, I have to take the
headphones off for a second.

Yeah, of course, of course.
there we go.
Sure enough.
Oh, yeah, there's the triangle.
We have the cat on the rightthere looking, to the left and
it looks like the rat's tryingto get away.
That image tells a story forsure.
I want to know because you areone of the people who when I
think of somebody who makesinteresting images.

(02:16:22):
And when I think about your bodyof work, it's easy to think of
photo projects, the photoprojects that you do.
And maybe it's the way that youcategorize them.
Maybe it's the way that you,view the world.
I'm not sure.
But when you have an image likethis, when you have this image
that on its own.
stands there.
It's powerful.
It's strong.
We understand the story.
Do you think to yourself, I needto look for more images like

(02:16:45):
this to start building together?
Or do you start thinking of yourother photos to categorize it
with them?

when I go out to take pictures, sometimes I
think, well, I need to getpicture.
I'm going to a specific place.
I'm going to take some pictures,but.
I get sidetracked a lot becauseI see a picture that would fit
into another series.
and that doesn't mean that, my,antenna are always up because I

(02:17:14):
miss a lot of pictures.
they register in my brain, but Idon't take the picture.
for some reason, I just getinvolved in what's going on or
looking, watching, and then,might take, some pictures, and
then afterwards, I think, oh,gee, how come I didn't take this
picture?
I think that, I'm all over theplace.

(02:17:35):
You know, and, uh, I know it,might not seem that way to other
people, but, I try toconcentrate and sometimes I do a
better job than others, but,mostly I, just, can feel what's
going on and I get pulled overand I, take a picture of
something other than what I setout to take a picture.
And as far as the categories go,I think that, the picture of the

(02:17:58):
cat cat and mouse here, I callit, it's a rat, but it, I call
it a mouse, and, the picture ofthe cat and the mouse was the
beginning of me taking, picturesof animals.
And, not always pets, just howsociety, has a relationship with
animals and that particularseries, which is probably this

(02:18:20):
started in 77.
It's more than 40 years old,deals with the, people wearing
fur, butcher shops that haverabbits hanging in the window
because people eat rabbits,sometimes dinosaurs, concrete
dinosaurs that are all over thecountry and, advertisements
using animals and, Sometimesit's pets, but sometimes it's

(02:18:45):
pictures.
I go to zoos all the time.
I'm on the lookout for animalpictures all the time.
But I might go out to, to dosomething else and see an animal
picture.
And then I get sidetracked.

it seems like, Today, we kind of live in this
world where, at least forphotographers, they're told to
niche down so much, right?
Whether it be, you can't just bea wedding photographer.
You have to be a weddingphotographer for couples, for
working professionals who wantan elopement on a mountaintop,
right?
so hyper specific.
This idea, this photo project ofyours, Animals, It seems so big.

(02:19:20):
Where do you draw the linebetween taking a photo of every
single animal and, I don't know,what it is that you have?
that balance?

Well, I've always wanted to do book about the
animal antics.
I have my favorites, but Ihaven't, nobody has been that
interested in that, but Ihaven't also, I haven't promoted
that or looked for somebody todo that or teamed up with or
something, but if somebody wasinterested, then I would start

(02:19:52):
the editing process.
And the editing process, takesquite a, a time.
It doesn't just happen, rightaway.
you know, which picture facesthe other picture?
Or, is there one picture perpage?
Is there a blank page someplace?
And, just the editing processfor a project that is going to
come to fruition might take ayear.

(02:20:15):
So I, I haven't yet dealt

with the animal antics.
So when you say antics, when yousee, are you looking for some
sort of action or emotion fromthese animals?
is that what's, triggering youto want to photograph this?
Or, on the opposite side of thespectrum, do you go out and
shoot animals?
Everything and then build theprojects after the fact, after

(02:20:39):
you've captured animals and allthese different situations, you
realize, oh, wow, this one'sdoing that.
Oh, and so is this one.
And so is this one.
This could be its own project.

Well, it's taken a lot of years to get a good body
work on number of animalpictures.
And then when I look at somebodyelse's picture of an animal or a
strange picture of maybe a fakeanimal or something, or maybe
it's a tiger attack in India orsomething, then I say, Oh, wow,

(02:21:10):
I wish I would have been there.
I wish I could have taken thatpicture.
That doesn't last long.
it's just, I think, well, maybethat could have fit into my
project, but you know, in, theword antics is only a working
title because, if we talk about,the Hollywood Boulevard
pictures, my working title was,Hollywood Boulevard in the

(02:21:32):
seventies.
And, when I started working witha, publisher, I had to go
through and think about whatwould be a good title for the
book.
and then I realized, well, eventhough my focus was on the
people on Hollywood Boulevard,there were stars in the picture
all the time because they're inthe sidewalk.

(02:21:52):
So trying to come up withtitles, I came up with star
struck and that stuck and thepublisher liked it.
So the original title.
Got thrown out, and that becamea title, and it's much better.
So I have no idea what theanimal pictures will become.
Or if they ever will become,because something else might

(02:22:14):
happen before that.
In fact, I know some things thatare gonna happen before that,
so.

So for you, being able to look back at your
archive of images is, thatsounds like one of the most
important, tools for you, to beable to go back and start to
build these projects kind ofafter the capture.

Yes, and, more recently, I've been, weekly
putting up a little, not apodcast, but a little thing on
social media called, Every PhotoHas a Story.

I've seen these.
They're great, by the way.
Very entertaining.

Those are all taken from, looking through my
archives and saying, Oh, here Ican take four pictures from this
group of pictures and talk aboutthem.
Sometimes I talk about thecomposition, sometimes I talk
about, just the photographitself or what I was feeling,
or, sometimes I talk aboutsomething that doesn't have to

(02:23:05):
do with the photograph and justpresent the photograph.
and that way I also keep trackof what I've done in the past.
So then that's fresh in my headfor a week or something, and
then I I remember taking apicture, 40 years ago and I
don't have it in the archiveyet.
And then I have to go into thecave and the cave is where I

(02:23:27):
keep the cave is where I keepall the negative.
And then I have to leaf throughthose by the year until I find.
photo that fits into thatcategory.
And while I'm doing that, Imight find another photo that
fits into another category thatI, I rejected when I first took
the photo because it didn'tsatisfy the constraints that I

(02:23:51):
set up on that particular day,which was 40 years ago or 30
years ago.
I forgotten what the constraintswere.
I don't remember what I wastrying to do.
But I have the photo and I'm notencumbered by what I was
supposed to do.
I can just look at the picturenow with a fresh eye and say,

(02:24:13):
Oh, this is a pretty goodpicture or no, this is, why did
I choose this picture?
It's terrible.

You know,

so I have a fresh, look at that.
And I also do the same now if Igo through the pictures that I
have digitally, or I go throughthe Lightroom pictures, and I
rejected pictures or I passedthem by, and then I look
through, like a folder onLightroom and I see, wow, this
is, look at this picture.

(02:24:41):
How come I didn't notice itbefore?
So I think, revisiting your ownpictures is a very special
thing.
and you have to just be open.
You have to be more open to thatthan you are when you're taking
the picture.

So after, years of building this archive,
what tips do you have?
for us to start building it, aswe look forward, because I know
that a lot of photographers whoare new to photography, you've
been photographing longer thanI've been alive, you know?
So, in, in that time that you'vebeen shooting, what have you
done with your archive now orback then, to ensure that today,
if you wanted to go back throughand look, you'd be able to find

(02:25:17):
that there's some sort oforganizational system.
How can we start to build itourselves?

Well, I can tell you to do some things that I haven't
done.
I wasn't really keeping track ofso I think in, for instance, in
Lightroom, you can put down yourcategories and then it'll go
across the board.
And if you say, if you then putin birds or something, all of
the bird pictures will come up.
I didn't do that.
So I was keeping not in film,but when I was started shooting

(02:25:45):
digitally.
There was a file number.
So I started keeping track ofthe file number, but, when I was
shooting film, I kept track byyear, so I had the year, but I
wasn't specific enough.
I think you, if you want to havea good archive, you have to be
really specific and that takes alot of time.
So once you have the photograph,then you then identifying the

(02:26:08):
photograph or putting in keywords or.
You have to be very meticulousabout that.
I wasn't very meticulous.
So I'm relying on my memory alot about, Oh, I, remember
taking this picture and then Ihave to go hunt it up.
And sometimes I'm successful andsometimes I'm not, but keeping

(02:26:28):
track from the beginning.
It is probably a must.
You just have to know that it'sgoing to eat up some of your
time.

Oh, man.
Yeah, because once again,there's a balance between all of
the context and none of thecontext, right?
I mean, with the photo of thecat and the mouse there, I mean,
is it black cat?
Is it triangle composition?
Is it white walls?
Is it high key?
Is it contrast?
you know what I mean?

(02:26:57):
Like how many tags go into it?
And I know for me, that seemsvery overwhelming and I would
just abandon the whole thing.
And I'd love to hear yourthoughts on this.
What do you think about, like Iknow within Lightroom, not
Lightroom Classic, but the otherversion, the mobile first
version, I think it uses AI todetect what's in the image and
then you can search and itshould pull things up.

(02:27:19):
Like I know that I've searchedbeach before and it showed me
like all the pictures of thebeach.
Have you tried any of this?

I have and I don't like it.

Oh, why is

that?

Because it requires too much time.
Time as far as importing theminto Lightroom or searching?

Searching.
I do put names on the file.
So if I say, Santa Monica, thenI can look through all of the,
Santa Monica pictures.
And within that, I've probablyalready pulled out pictures,
that fit into differentcategories.
And then I have, within thosecategories, it might be an

(02:27:54):
animal in Santa Monica, or itcould be a person, or it could
be a homeless person, or itcould be busker, or you know, or
it could be, an acrobat.
So, within that, I have a filethat might say acrobat, or
street people, or, so after Ifind, Santa Monica.
I've taken something from SantaMonica and put it into a

(02:28:17):
different folder, the same if I,go to another country, I might
say, okay, here's a picture of aclock.
So that might go in under thecategory in the folder called
time.
So, connected to my othercomputer and there's backups on
this computer.
the other computer I think Ihave, six drives connected to.

(02:28:40):
so each of those drives, there'sone drive for jazz, one drive
for maybe, the animal things,maybe another drive for just
archives.
Another drive for new picturesthat I'm taking, like the
started, if I get a new drive,then that gets labeled, 2023.
And, I thought about, gettingthese super drives or, and, and,

(02:29:02):
uh, Oh,

and NA, uh, NAS and

NAS, but it's very expensive to start all over
again,

I'm going to send you some resources after
this.
I don't think that it's asexpensive as you think.
Oh, okay.
And I'd be happy to help youout.
because I, I just recently madethe switch as well, so I'd love
to share some thoughts.
But when it comes to, thecategorization then, as we're
talking about here of yourarchive, what for you are like
the main themes?
You said that it's categorizedby year, of course, and then

(02:29:32):
location.
tell me how you break down aphoto.
As far as, uh, keeping itorganized.

Yeah, if I would say, Paris.
Taking pictures in Paris.
so that's the main category,Paris.
And then within Paris, there'sanother folder called, Metro.
Or there's another photographcalled Museums.
There's another folder.
So it's the main folder and thenthere are sub, sub

folders.
And then, so to build a projectafter the fact, I guess what I'm
trying to get at here is thatYeah, I

build the project after the fact.
I don't know that, very often Idon't know that there's a
project.

Yeah.
There

isn't any project.

Yeah.

And then I, find out that I've gravitated towards a
certain You know, I go to someplace and I say, Oh, wow, look
at all these statues.
Or if I'm using Paris, themoneymaker in Paris is the
Eiffel tower.
I didn't know that before I gotto Paris.
I mean, I knew that there was anEiffel tower and I'd been to

(02:30:29):
Paris before.
And then I started seeing,started really paying attention
to, because everywhere I went inParis.
I could see the Eiffel towereverywhere.
So I started taking pictures ofthe Eiffel tower, like everybody
else does, but with a little bitdifferent slant.
It was always from where I was.

(02:30:51):
if it was out the window of amuseum at night, then there
would be part of the museum inthe picture and then the Eiffel
Tower.
I had no idea that I was goingto be taking pictures of the
Eiffel Tower.
so now I have A small collectionof Eiffel Tower pictures.
How many good ones are there?

(02:31:12):
At the moment, there might bethree or four.
maybe out of 20 or 25.
Will I ever do anything withthem?
I have no idea.
If somebody asks me about, whatdid you do in Paris or something
like that, I might send themthat picture.
if somebody asks me, do you haveany pictures of the Eiffel

(02:31:34):
Tower, I would send them the onethat I like the best.
But I don't know when I take apicture, whether it's going to
really blow up or becomesomething larger.

Well, before, thinking about will this develop
into something, which isinteresting, because I always
feel like that's the firstquestion that I ask myself.
And if the answer is, I have noidea, then I typically just
don't do it.
Which, is a habit that I need tobreak.
So if you want to go back andbuild this into a project, just
so that I can get someclarification, I know that this
isn't an episode all aboutorganization and whatnot, but

(02:32:07):
just so that I can get a betterpicture, you would have to go
back and search through all ofyour folders of images to see if
you can find anything else thatfits the category.
Is that right?

yes.
Yeah, that's the short answer.
But, that might come up when I'msearching for something else.
And then I see, oh,unconsciously I had this picture
before I started thinking aboutit as a series.
I might have taken that picturejust because I was interested,
but it didn't, the light didn'tgo off.

(02:32:39):
it wasn't a category, in

the past.
That makes sense.
So, as I said, it's a new year,there's a lot of people who,
myself included, would like totry more photo projects.
And as somebody who's veryproductive at photo projects, I
want to learn from you, right?
somebody who puts together a lotof photo projects, you are
somebody who, when I look atyour work, I can see the

(02:33:04):
progression.
I can see the vastness in theprojects that you create.
And seemingly they can kind ofbe all over the board.
So I want to ask this may be astrange question, but when I
think about architecture ofplaces of worship, people
sitting on a bench, waiting fora bus, theater box offices,

(02:33:25):
humans interacting with animals,can you In one word, tie all
these images together.
What brings these imagestogether?

I'm curious.
That's it.
I think we started, today sayingthat I'm all over the place.
then you talked aboutphotographers who have a
speciality.
they're only taking pictures ofweddings.
They're only taking pictures ofarchitecture.
That would just bore the hellout of me, that's just not not
where I know I Okay, so

how do you go deeper into a project if you're
looking at multiple differentprojects kind of all the time?
How do you go deeper intosomething?

If there's a particular, for instance, I've
been shooting now for a year onthe Santa Monica pier.
I can go there, park my car, andthen I go and I spend 90
minutes, maybe at the max twohours, on the Santa Monica pier
taking pictures.
And sometimes like I have toomany pictures of people, trying

(02:34:24):
to, sell something.
so I forced myself to look atother things.
But, it's gonna take me anotheryear of taking pictures there to
get a body of work.
So I go there knowing thatthere's something I'm going to
see something I might get onepicture in that two hours, one
good picture, I'll know when Istart editing, which one are the

(02:34:46):
good pictures and which onesaren't.
I have yet to go there and shootpictures at night.
I haven't shot pictures in thefog there.
I have shot pictures underneaththe pier.
this past 4th of July, I took aflag to the beach that's on
either side of the Santa MonicaPier and asked people to hold up

(02:35:08):
the flag, and ask them what theythought about the 4th of July.
So that was kind of a sub.
Category because every 4th ofJuly I take pictures of people
with flags or a hang a flag upor something like that and get
people to post and now I havesome pictures about Santa Monica
pier on the 4th of July.

(02:35:30):
some of the categories overlap,that's just the sub category of
the Santa Monica pier.

of course,

and.
At the end of the two years,there could be no one else
interested in those pictures,but me.

Does that matter to

you?
No.

Why is that?
I

mean, I wish that, everybody would say, Wow, look
at this, look at this.
But, that's not why I'm takingthe picture.
Although I have to tell youthat, more recently I've been
really aware of, my legacy andthat only came about because I
listened to podcast, each Sundaymorning, Hindus talking about,

(02:36:07):
and they don't believe inlegacy.
And I said, well, that doesn'twork for me.
Because, my pictures are goingto be here long after I'm gone,
and that's, what I want to havehappen.
Then I started really thinkingabout legacy and, feel very good
that my pictures are going to behere just like photographers who

(02:36:28):
I have looked at in the past whoare long gone, dead.
And, their photos are living,and I know something about those
photographers looking at theirpictures.

So how are you managing that?
How are you managing your futurelegacy of your images?

Well, I'm working on the archives, certainly, and
those will go to someinstitution.

What do you mean by that?
Just so that I can, be clear.
you're taking all of your imagesand you're sending them to
somebody?

not all of the images, but the ones that I
think are good, I will findsomebody to take care of those.
Or I will give them to aninstitution.
I don't know whether it'll be a,if I can get a museum to take
them or somebody else justmanage them afterwards.
That isn't clear to me yet.

(02:37:17):
But the other thing is, is thatI'm very involved in books.
It's another way to get thephotographs out there.
A broader way to get thephotographs out than to get a
single image out.
Or to have a gallery selling,one image that somebody is going
to hang on their wall.
I'm not as interested in that,as I once was.

(02:37:40):
I think that it doesn't happenvery often, certainly very
difficult to make a living thatway.
So I don't think of it in thoseterms.
If by chance or luck orsomething that, 20 years from
now, when I'm long gone, there'sa newsflash or something that
says this picture of Abe Pildessold for 20, 000 at auction, I

(02:38:02):
would be happy.
I won't benefit financially fromit, but I'll be happy that
because of that newsflash, a lotof people will see that image.
More people see the image

so what is it that is most important to you
about that?
this may be just a dumbquestion.
Why do you want more people tosee your images

just to?
Let them see What I saw and whatI thought was important It was
important to me, or it wasstrange to me, or look what I
saw, isn't this interesting?
and then if somebody else seesthat, they might find that it's
interesting also.
Maybe it opens up something elsefor them.

So earlier when you said that the word
curiosity is what ties all thesedifferent projects that you have
together, when somebody looks atan AF Pildes photo, you want
them to feel curious as well, isthat it?

Yes, I would like to, you know, maybe they missed
it or maybe they're drawn tothat picture because they
recognize something in thatpicture that, they themselves
gravitate towards.
Maybe it's the person who neverlooked at that type of image or
that situation before and said,Oh, how come I never recognized

(02:39:15):
this before?
How come I never saw thisbefore?
It's just, like asking me why Itake, pictures, I think if I
draw an analogy to.
someone who's singing a song amusician, and there are all
these new musicians who are longgone and they still have
recordings and people listen tothose recordings and they're

(02:39:36):
pleased by them or they keep thebeat or they dance to them Or
it's joyful or and those deadmusicians.
They're just smiling.
it's the same kind of feeling

that's so wholesome that's so interesting
to hear.
I love it.
thank you that was beautifulwhen it comes to creating images
for you.
I want to know what's moreimportant Is it speed of
execution or is it perfection?

I think that when you do something, for a long
time and you have a skill set,you don't think about the skill
set so much when you're doingit.
It's built in.
yes.
do I change my station pointwhen I'm looking at something?
I want to take a picture.
Yes, I do.
Do I try and find the bestangle?
Do I tilt the camera?
do I compose?

(02:40:22):
Yes, I do.
I do if I'm having to work fastbecause I'm going to miss it and
I miss a lot of pictures becauseI'm not quick enough.
I don't think about all thoseskills that I've developed over
the years when I start takingthe pictures because they just
kind of fall in place.
And all I really have to do isrecognize something that's going

(02:40:43):
on and get my camera to see whatI'm seeing and push the shutter.
And, one of the things that Idon't do is that I don't have my
camera set on, multipleexposures.
I didn't get in that habit.
My habit was to always push theshutter.
Always push the button down.
That presents a problemsometimes because there's a

(02:41:06):
little lag time.
So when I was shooting film whenI pushed the shutter down that's
when I saw it.
And lag times have gotten muchbetter, much shorter.
With each new development ofdigital camera, but there's
still sometimes the lag time,because there's auto focus and,
it's got to come into focus.

(02:41:27):
And then, then it takes thepicture with film, you know,
like I could, know that at F8,And at this distance, all of
this, everything from five to 10feet was going to be in focus.
So that, that isn't exactly nowyou can do manual focus, but
manual focus on digital camerasis slower than autofocus.

Yes.

so.
You have to overcome thosetechnological things with
digital cameras, but think theanswer to the question was that
things are built in, so I'mlucky.
I think I've got the timing downbetter now than I used to, and
it works.
So I use all of those skillsthat I have to get the picture.

(02:42:10):
And if I get the picture, I'mhappy.
If I don't get the picture, Iget pissed off at myself, but
there's another picture rightaround the corner, right to my
left or right to my right.
And then my focus is on that andI've forgotten about the one
that I missed.

You don't sit and dwell about the photos that
you've missed in the past?

maybe for a minute.
Sometimes I kick myself in thebutt for a second and then, no,
there's just too many morepictures.

Oh, yeah.
that is a great outlook.
I want to go back to books realquick because, we kind of
briefly went over books and thepower of books and then kind of
being able to live on.
But, Your projects sometimeshave different mediums, right?
Some of your projects are juston your website, some of them
are published in books, but someof them, as you mentioned
earlier as well, you're postingto social media and you're doing

(02:42:59):
these kind of deep dives into animage, so how much do you need
to know end result, the medium,that it's going to be while
you're out shooting?
Do you focus on that at all?

No, I don't.
Okay.
You know, that's, kind of likesaying, oh, take this picture
because I know that other peopleare going to like it.
I could never figure out whatpeople are going to like and
not, or dislike, or who's goingto react to this.
I can bring an analogy to this.
If you try and satisfy somebodyelse, it's like a job.
I I did that for years, takingpictures for other people as a

(02:43:33):
commercial photographer.
And, even though I used mytalent to make good pictures for
clients, it always felt to melike, they weren't my
photographs, they were forsomebody else.
I think I said once before thatI took all of that commercial,
almost all of that commercialwork and destroyed it so that I

(02:43:53):
wouldn't have to, be responsiblefor it or take care of it.

Wow.

I'm really very lucky and blessed that I just am
doing it for me.
Do I think about, is it going tomake me money?
Not going to make me money.

So then why books?
Why books?
Why not just post your photos onInstagram and that's it?
what's the importance of books?

Well, I do that, but I do know that books have a
longer life.
The motto for Deadbeat ClubPress, who published the
Starstruck, their motto is thereis no money in books.
And, Clint Woodside, and hiswife, Alex, Who have that press.
they're wonderful.
They published a half a dozenbooks a year, maybe one more or

(02:44:34):
maybe one less, but their booksaren't really making them money.
They're also coffee roasters.
he has a business where heroasts coffee and he sells
coffee to the coffee shops andto restaurants and things.
And at the book fair that I wentto, it was at the Geffen where
there were.
Booksellers from all over theworld.

(02:44:56):
He made more money because hehad a booth there selling
coffee.
You know, he made more moneyselling coffee than he did
selling books.
It's just a love for books.
He has a love for books.
And I think that, there'sanother, uh, press that, has the
same idea.
It was very successful.
And there's rally press andChris Pickler.

(02:45:16):
and both of these, guys do veryquality work and they choose,
photographers all differentdirections, but they produce a
really good project.
They produce good books, but,Chris has an olive oil,
business, so he has olive trees.
You know, I mean, this is thelove of photography and the love

(02:45:37):
of books.
It's not the love of money.
they're not doing it for money.
I have the same attitude, and Ifeel, part of their family, and
I'm happy to be a part of theirfamily because we have the same
kind of thought about, doingthings out of love.

Mm hmm.
tell me the difference infeeling you get when you open up
a book from a photographerversus a photographer.
Heading to their Instagram andlooking at their feed.

Well, when I was really young, and you looked at
photographs, you looked at an 8by 10 photograph and you held it
in your hand and you looked atthe photograph.
it wasn't the size of abillboard.
there were no photographs inmuseums at that time.
So it was very personal andbooks are very much like that.
It's so personal.

(02:46:22):
It's you in the book and thephotograph and looking at that.
and so you're at one with that.
The difference, I think onsocial media, for instance, now
I'm looking at you, but the restof my screen is full up with
notes and photos and things likethat.
And the other environment andit's just not as personal and

(02:46:43):
it's moving and there's alsomaybe a time limit, so when
people post things, they put iton a cycle.
Okay.
2 seconds or 5 seconds or 30seconds or something.
So, at the end of that.
While you're still looking at,well, what's happening in this
corner, then that picturechanges.
So I'm not turning the page.

(02:47:04):
I can go back, but it'sprobably, it could be my age or
just what I'm used to, but it'snot as personal.
So the social media isn't aspersonal for me.
Do I use social media?
Yes, because it's a way To reachout.
Do I ask people to go and visitmy website?
Yes, I do ask them to do that.

(02:47:26):
Do I ask them to buy a book?
I ask them to do that too.
Am I successful at any of that?
I don't keep track of theanalytics.
One of my studio, assistantsdoes and she says, Oh, Abe, look
at this.
800 people looked at this.
It's not as good as the one thatgot a thousand looks, And I just

(02:47:47):
say, what am I supposed to dowith that information, and it
doesn't stop me from putting thenext thing up and I don't go and
look at the one that got morelooks or likes or whatever and
try and replicate that because Ithink that that's again, chasing
something because I don't knowthat, if I put up a picture of

(02:48:10):
myself, you More people look atthat than if I put up a picture
a photograph of something that Ishot.

And I

could never understand that.

That is interesting.
You know,

I don't know why are people interested in a
photograph of me as opposed to apicture, a photograph of
something else.

I don't know.
I don't have an answer for that.
Neither do I.
But it doesn't change the waythat you move forward with
social media.
No, Yeah, I know that we'recoming to the, end of our time
here, if you could look back atyour career, if you could think
about the photo projects thatyou have created, if you could
think about, Maybe images thathave made the most impact.

(02:48:50):
If you could think about whenyou felt most fulfilled
creatively, what advice wouldyou give to somebody who is just
getting started?
Who, maybe they feel lost.
They don't know what it is thatthey want to start shooting.
They don't know what the subjectmatter is going to be, what the
medium is going to be, if it'sgoing to be successful, or even

(02:49:11):
how to determine whether it'sgoing to be successful.
What would you say to thosepeople?

I would say that everybody gets something,
everybody gets something thatyou're born with and, if you can
identify what that is, whetherit's, you're musically inclined
or visually inclined, then Ithink that, once you identify
that, then you have, then youcan develop it.
And that's what's going to makeyou happy.
you just have to follow that.

(02:49:36):
You don't have to try and besomebody else.
You just have to recognize whatyou are and the gift that you've
been given and you develop thatand never give up.
Never give up.
That's it.
Have you ever thought aboutgiving up?
No.
Give up to what?

Well, I guess in terms of, we had talked a
little bit about the commercialphotography and you didn't like
it and moving on from that, knowwhen to stop doing something
that isn't aligned withyourself?

I think that, in my case when I was doing commercial
photography and I was younger, Icould feed off of the stress.
that's part of, yourtestosterone, you're just trying
to.
run it a hundred miles an hourall the time and you feed off of
that and then eventually you gettired or you just said, Oh, I
just can't stand another persontelling me to do it this way.

(02:50:29):
And that happened when Iswitched over from being a
designer to a photographer, it'sbecause was sick of people.
Telling me clients telling memake the size of the type a lot
larger.
I don't like this color orsomething like that.
or the worst was for them tochanging something on the press.

(02:50:50):
without me knowing or withouttelling me.
And finally, I just said, it'smuch easier to be a
photographer.
Nobody is telling me to changethe image.
They're just saying, I like thisone, or I don't like this one.
And that's a little bit easierto deal with.
And I don't equate like anddislike with good and bad
because you can like somethingthat is bad.

(02:51:12):
I could forgive people easierfor me to forgive people around
a photograph than around adesign.
I would just say that, you justgotta eventually follow your
heart, what makes you happy.
If you get that early on, goodfor you.
If it comes later, good for you.

(02:51:33):
But, if you get that, you gottarun with it.
what makes your day.

I don't know how to end it any better than
that.
Ave, once again, you came on,you did a phenomenal job taking
my less than fully formedquestions and turning them into
answers that I know listeners,are going to be able to have
some major takeaways from.
So thank you for that.
Before I let you go, listenersare going to want to know, where
can we see some of these photoprojects that is talking about?

(02:51:58):
Where's the best place to dothat?

I guess you can visit the website.
You can always go to a localbookstore and ask for
Starstruck.
You can turn in, you can, joinmy, ever Wednesday Cost In
Contact by, I think, Googling meor there should be a link that
you can just, Send me to putyour name and then you'll get a
photo every Wednesday ofwhatever I'm thinking about on

(02:52:23):
Tuesday night.
and just, try and have as muchfun with it as you can, I think
YouTube really good place tofind me.
You know, YouTube, Ave Pildas.

I really hope that you enjoyed this incredibly
deep dive into the world oflight and composition.
I hope that you're walking awaywith a ton of new ideas and
techniques to apply to your ownphotography.
Chris Duncan's advice onlighting control and creating
dimension to Aves, mastery ofnatural light in street
photography.
You've just heard fromphotographers who have mastered

(02:52:56):
the art of using light andcomposition to tell truly
incredible stories through theirimages.
So whether it's the story of,you know, a beautiful family's
milestone through a familyportrait, or the story of
Americans all across thecountry, it is now your turn to
take what you have learned todayand experiment with it.
No matter if it's capturingdynamic street scenes, composing

(02:53:17):
immersive landscapes, or usinglighting to evoke emotions
within portraits.
Remember, that light andcomposition are your most
powerful tools as aphotographer.
And no matter your camera, youcan work on them, even if it's
just a cell phone.
So push the boundaries, and yourimages will only get stronger
and more meaningful.

(02:53:38):
That is it for today.
Remember, the more that youshoot today, the better of a
photographer you will betomorrow.
Talk soon!

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